00:00:00:00 - 00:00:27:05 Unknown This is the Doc Nation podcast. We are a movement founded by doctors for doctors dedicated to empowering medical professional to reclaim control over health care decisions and advocating for their fair share of the industry's resources. Please note the views expressed are those of Doc Nation and not necessarily those of our Guests or referenced health centers. 00:00:27:09 - 00:00:46:01 Reid Lancaster Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining. We have Steve Stratman, a long time, the longtime lead attorney that has been supporting our physicians for years and years now. And, he just goes above and beyond in terms of trying to understand health care and, being prepared and ready for questions that he thinks that physicians will have in the future. 00:00:46:01 - 00:00:57:00 Reid Lancaster And so we're very, very grateful to have him, as leadership on our team. And, without further ado, I'd like Justin to jump in with, the first question, but thanks for being with us here today, Steve. 00:00:57:02 - 00:00:58:11 Steve Stratman You bet. Thank you. 00:00:58:13 - 00:01:02:13 Justin Nabity Steve, tell us about how you got involved with health care and the role you play in it. 00:01:02:15 - 00:01:20:16 Steve Stratman Oh, sure. Thanks, Justin. Well, I've been practicing, for a good while, and I was in private practice, with a large law firm for about 15 years. And then I was with, a large public company as the deputy general counsel for another 15 years or so. And then I, retired and I've been in private practice, part time since then. 00:01:20:18 - 00:01:42:15 Steve Stratman But, about 2017 or so, Justin and, Reed contacted me to help them out with some physician contracts. And so since that time, I've been focusing almost exclusively on the physician contracts, employment agreements, helping positions with their practices in varied ways. And so, I guess since about 2017, I've been full time in the health care practice, because of the in my law practice. 00:01:42:17 - 00:01:55:13 Justin Nabity Awesome. And this year's been a big year with some of the announcements that have been made around the non-compete, potential changes, and then taking those changes away. Can you talk to us about what's going on there? 00:01:55:15 - 00:02:28:19 Steve Stratman Oh, sure. The, a couple months ago, the Federal Trade Commission proposed a rule which was going to ban non-compete, really across the country. And it was a sweeping rule which, would have had the impact of effectively eliminating non-compete in all the states where they're currently allowed and ballpark. It's about 40 states that currently allow them. And so the FTC rule was supposed to go into effect September 4th, just two days ago, but it was enjoined by, a couple of courts, actually, but it was enjoined on the basis that they really didn't have the authority to issue such a broad based rule. 00:02:28:21 - 00:02:53:20 Steve Stratman And so it sits right now as an enjoined rule. And, my my personal professional opinion, Justin, is that it's probably not going to come back. And so that, while it's under appeal and these injunctions that you guys know can go for months and months and they can go through the appellate court process and things like that, I think that based upon some recent Supreme Court decisions, I don't think the authority of the FTC will be upheld. 00:02:53:22 - 00:03:14:07 Steve Stratman And so my my prediction, to just, go out there on the limb is that it won't be revived, which then puts us back to the status quo before the rule and the status quo before the rule is that in about 40 states, covenants not to compete are enforceable, but they've got to be reasonable in their duration, and they've got to be reasonable in their geographic reach. 00:03:14:09 - 00:03:37:14 Steve Stratman And typically they cannot impose a substantial hardship on the party who's bound by them. And so that those are the three touchstones that you encounter in most states where they are permitted. But again, those are just the legal implications, the practical implications of a non-compete when doctors encounter them in their contract include things like, will the employer even try to enforce the non-compete? 00:03:37:16 - 00:03:58:14 Steve Stratman Because, remember, an employer has got a few considerations here. They include the cost. They include the expense. They include the reputational damage. They include, the, potential that, they could lose. And so if they lose, then, in that state or in that area, it sets a precedent that a non-compete against a position is not enforceable. 00:03:58:16 - 00:04:14:01 Steve Stratman And therefore, the, employers are a little bit hesitant to actually go after and enforce a non-compete, even if they have one in their contract. But but it is a little bit of a misnomer. Justin, to your question, it's a little bit of a misnomer. And I encounter it, often with the doctors. I talk to them. 00:04:14:03 - 00:04:31:23 Steve Stratman Sometimes they'll come in, and tell me that, gee, the non-compete in my contract, but it's really not enforceable, right, Steve? And I'll tell them that that's that's a really, that's misleading because in many states, they are. And, the employer is not going to include a non-compete in a contract in a state where they know it's permissible. 00:04:32:00 - 00:04:50:18 Steve Stratman And so you need to go in assuming that it could be enforceable and then you get into the notion about, is it too broad, is it too long, or will the employer even try to enforce it? So those are kind of the legal and the practical implications that doctors need to think through when they see a non-compete in their contract? 00:04:50:20 - 00:05:10:04 Dr. Anthony Giuffrida That's great, Steve. And coming from a physician, one of the biggest things I hear from other physicians is the same cost and reputation that you're talking about that might occur against the hospital. Why physicians are afraid to even try to touch that non-compete. Rarely do they reach out to someone like you. That's something that doc Mason we're trying to say is, hey, come to us. 00:05:10:08 - 00:05:18:07 Dr. Anthony Giuffrida You know, we'll get you to Steve. We'll get you to look at this to me, a non-compete. And most contracts are just a deterrent. And it works very, very well. 00:05:18:11 - 00:05:22:01 Justin Nabity Just a targeted, just a deterrent to. 00:05:22:03 - 00:05:34:23 Dr. Anthony Giuffrida Yeah. You know, to keep people from wanting to change positions. Not many physicians that I have seen have gone against their non-compete and actually fought it. Even if they would win. Would you agree with that? 00:05:35:00 - 00:06:01:05 Steve Stratman I would I would, doctor, that's a great point. You're exactly right. There are certainly a huge advantage to an employer included in the contracts in a state where they can. Because to your point, it in the views of a physician who's not used to them and just reads the print, they think that, wow, this is going to be a hurdle I cannot get over, and I need to take that into account should I ever leave the practice, when in fact, to your point, it can be a hurdle. 00:06:01:07 - 00:06:23:01 Steve Stratman And, it also can be negotiated away. It can be liberally, liberated, in the sense that it can be made more, liberal in terms of the terms. The periods could be shortened, the radius could be shortened. You could carve out exceptions out. To your point, Doctor Anthony, about, exceptions. If, for example, the doctor is terminated without cause. 00:06:23:03 - 00:06:42:10 Steve Stratman But if the doctor terminated the agreement for cause, there are a lot of reasons that justify the either the elimination or the non applicability, or certainly the liberalization of the non-compete such that it is a very, very narrowly drawn, even if it is, or even if it continues to exist in the contract. 00:06:42:12 - 00:06:57:23 Dr. Anthony Giuffrida At least I'll go ahead. The last point, just to get out to the people out there that are worried about the non-compete, I always ask, ask the right people. Someone on the law side will help you. We don't know this physicians. This is one thing we're really not good at is our contracts. Make sure you reach out to someone. 00:06:57:23 - 00:07:06:02 Dr. Anthony Giuffrida Ask if there's something you can do. Don't just take it at face value and say, oh, I'm in trouble. I got to move out of this whole state if I want to keep practicing. 00:07:06:04 - 00:07:26:15 Steve Stratman Now, that's great advice. And the other thing to bear in mind is, again, to your point of deterrence, the physicians, they just can't know, you know, why would they know? But but, the American Medical Association, has spoken out against non-compete. They view it really as an ethical issue. Therefore, reducing accessibility to medical care. 00:07:26:17 - 00:07:47:13 Steve Stratman So the AMA is very clear, in their view, about the enforceability of non-compete. And, courts generally speaking, in most states that permit them, they are very much disfavored in the law. And so if a court takes a look at a non-compete, they're going to look at it, in a sense of narrowing it, applying it if they apply it at all in a very narrow way. 00:07:47:15 - 00:08:07:08 Steve Stratman And, doctors also need to understand that, if they, pursue a non-compete judges have, multiple rights in different states. Some states can, in some states that the judge can just cross out the non-compete completely and just say, hey, this is against public policy. I'm not going to enforce it. Go away. The second thing they can do is they can take out their pen. 00:08:07:08 - 00:08:40:12 Steve Stratman They call it blue pencil. And the blue pencil rule allows the judges to modify the non-compete, as it may be written, so as to make it more reasonable within the contours of the state law. And so, physicians need to understand that they have multiple, options when they encounter a non-compete. And I agree with your advice that they should press the issue because it can be modified in the final contract to make it not as, not as enforceable, and not as broad, or they may be able to even negotiate it out of the contract. 00:08:40:14 - 00:08:59:01 Steve Stratman And the last watch that I'll have for you is this employers will tell you all the time that, the non-compete is is a non-negotiable. It's non-negotiable. It's all all of our agreements. We don't talk about it. We can't change it. There's nothing we can do about it. You just have to live with it. But in many, many cases, that's just not true. 00:08:59:03 - 00:09:19:16 Steve Stratman It's just not true. And, when you get down to the final issues in a contract negotiation, especially if the, if the employer wants this position badly, maybe it's a niche they've been trying to fill. Maybe they've, been at it a long time. Maybe it's a specialty that that they very much want in their integrated practice. 00:09:19:18 - 00:09:25:08 Steve Stratman They can bend. They can bend, and they do bend. When you get down to some of the final issues. 00:09:25:10 - 00:09:57:21 Justin Nabity These employers need doctors more than the doctors need the employers, because the time is with the shortage and the retirements and people leaving, they need the need is so great. So you talk to us about we have we have signature members who are in private practice. They own their companies and we have members that are employed. Talk to us about how to think about this from both perspective, because obviously you want to be able to protect as an owner what's proprietary, what's unique, what the effort, the investment you make into somebody. 00:09:57:23 - 00:10:23:22 Justin Nabity So there's a little bit of, of a line to, kind of walk here because on the one hand, there's some benefit to these on one hand, but on the other hand, it's can be to what we were talking about a moment ago. It can be bad for patients getting access to care. How should we think about this in the current situation that we're in now that you, as you said, it might potentially be blocked or not brought back up again? 00:10:23:24 - 00:10:42:16 Steve Stratman Well, I think that, you're right is a good point, Justin. Depending on who you who you're representing and depending on your status, for example, Justin and I, we're working, just two days ago with a practice where they want to hire an additional physician. And so when Justin and I, assist a doctor who might be the owner of a practice. 00:10:42:18 - 00:11:00:18 Steve Stratman Well, then our advice might be a little bit different in terms of how you might construct the non-compete. And so, different from what we've just talked about in terms of opposing a non-compete. If you're an owner and you want to protect, a lot of things, you want to protect your your business, you want to protect your patient panel, you want to protect your employees. 00:11:00:20 - 00:11:28:12 Steve Stratman You want to protect the confidentiality and the business strategy that you've employed as an owner of a practice. Well, then, in those cases, sure, you're going to write a non-compete, if you're permitted in that state to write one, you're going to write one, which is, to your mind in a reasonable. And so, oftentimes in many states that permit them, there might be a corresponding state statute and the state statute might lay out the contours of what is presumptively permitted, presumed, presumptively enforceable. 00:11:28:14 - 00:11:45:00 Steve Stratman And those can be your guidelines. If you're an owner to say, well, wait a minute, if the statute permits, a non-compete, no more than two years. Well, then go ahead and write a non-compete of two years and a permits, geographic restriction of X miles from the primary site. Then go ahead and write it that way. 00:11:45:02 - 00:12:09:24 Steve Stratman And, you'll remember it. If you're the owner, you're saying, hey, wait a minute. I'm not trying to be difficult here. I'm not trying to be unfair, but I am trying to protect a business I've built up for many years, and a patient panel I've built up for many years, and a business way of doing, doing my business and a business strategy and things like that, and confidentiality and maybe even some patented, procedures or products that I've built up and I want to protect. 00:12:10:01 - 00:12:22:13 Steve Stratman And so you can see why those are justifiable reasons for a physician who's an owner, to go ahead and impose a non-compete, which is reasonable in this geography, and it's reasonable and it's duration. 00:12:22:15 - 00:12:44:02 Justin Nabity I'll just give you an example to on that saying no, we had a client who went to their employer and said, hey, I want to start a separate practice, a telehealth practice on, regarding weight loss. And they said, no, you can't do it. And then they came. I said, well, maybe at least conditions. And then they came back a third time and they actually said, well, allow you to go ahead and do it. 00:12:44:02 - 00:13:07:04 Justin Nabity And he was going from inpatient internal medicine to weight loss, which there's no conflict there. There's no there's no there's no like the patients that are coming in for inpatient care are not completely he's going to be building an inpatient center. He's going to be helping people on an outpatient basis with weight loss. And so stuff like that. 00:13:07:06 - 00:13:29:11 Justin Nabity It's the point of them saying no. And they actually changed their mind. And it turned out to be a really good situation for him in the midst of getting himself pursuing this opportunity that he had in mind. So there are avenues to your point. It is possible. What do you give me your thoughts on the future in terms of how doctors should plan around the environment that we're in from? 00:13:29:11 - 00:13:30:14 Justin Nabity Well, a couple things. 00:13:30:14 - 00:13:54:04 Steve Stratman Yeah, a couple of things. Justin, thanks. And to your point, before I, before I move on to the next one, where are you practice meaning the specialty in which you practice is really important in the non-compete, because the employer might send up, whether you on it or whether you're going to work for, an employer, they might set up a non-compete, which is very broad and says how you can practice medicine in a particular area for a particular time. 00:13:54:06 - 00:14:15:09 Steve Stratman But to your point, Justin, the physician needs to pause or the owner needs to pause and say, well, wait a minute. What type of practice, is this physician practicing? Meaning if it's a hospitalist, the hospitalist doesn't have a patient relationship, which is transferable in the main. Yeah, they're doing the work at the hospital, and they're serving whoever they serve for a particular day. 00:14:15:11 - 00:14:36:15 Steve Stratman They're not a threat to the financial business. Should they leave? Same in some other specialties. Maybe a radiologist, maybe some staff pathology. It just depends. But, they can always pause to say, hey, wait a minute. Why should you be concerned about me walking down the street to become a hospitalist at another hospital, even if it's within the geographic restriction? 00:14:36:17 - 00:15:00:03 Steve Stratman Because I'm not going to take your patients, so I'm not a risk. But in any event, to your, broader question of the future, a couple of things. One is the, the status of play or non-compete is very fluid. And the FTC rule, demonstrates that while it was enjoined and while I don't think it's going to come back on a national scale, these things are under, strict scrutiny. 00:15:00:03 - 00:15:21:01 Steve Stratman And so, any physician, whether you're an employer or you're an employed physician, will need to be mindful of of the landscape. And the landscape is right now state by state. These things are getting eroded. They're getting eroded. And so, for example, just in the last couple of years, you know, there have been a number of states who have, banned non-compete. 00:15:21:03 - 00:15:44:05 Steve Stratman Minnesota has banned them very recently. Pennsylvania bans them as of January 1st of 2025. There's an exception in Pennsylvania for a one year. But in any event, the concept is, is that the governor signed the statute, just a few months ago. But Pennsylvania, recent Minnesota, recent South Dakota a year ago. And so, state by state, these things are getting scrutinized. 00:15:44:05 - 00:16:09:01 Steve Stratman And so physicians need to be aware, no matter what side you're on, they need to be aware that the landscape is changing. And so the doctor needs to be very mindful of what the state law is at this time, because they can be shifting legislative session by legislative session. The other thing, which, just, you know, at least I recommend, for example, if I represent and I position, is to say, hey, wait a minute. 00:16:09:03 - 00:16:36:13 Steve Stratman Okay, we've tried our best. We've narrowed the non-compete best we can, but it's still there in some form. And so I'll put in kind of a caveat clause, which just says something like, hey, whatever happens, with regard to state or federal legislation which may restrict narrow or ban a non-compete, the non-compete in the foregoing clause will immediately become void and unenforceable, effective as of that day. 00:16:36:15 - 00:16:58:23 Steve Stratman And so I just call it kind of a springing clause, which immediately eliminates and voids the non-compete, which they they've tried to get out of but have failed. But but, the springing non-compete hopefully acts as a spring that says, hey, if any legislation changes, federal or state, then immediately this non-compete will perish. 00:16:59:00 - 00:17:16:11 Dr. Anthony Giuffrida I have a question, and many other physicians listening name might have the same question. I think we're afraid of the unknown of how much it would cost to fight a non-compete. I know you can't give me an exact number. Do you have a ballpark number and how much it would cost if you were to hire hire a lawyer or someone like yourself? 00:17:16:12 - 00:17:20:03 Dr. Anthony Giuffrida That's a lot that we have no clue. And we're afraid even going down that alley sometime. 00:17:20:05 - 00:17:45:07 Steve Stratman Right? Right now, that's that's a good question. And that's kind of as a cousin to the, to the deterrent because, as you know, it can be costly. I mean, bottom line is, yes, it can be costly. And so any lawyer you're going to handle or excuse me, hire is going to handle the case, probably in his normal or her normal hourly rate is probably going to be at a minimum of 300 bucks an hour, but could be as high as 500 bucks an hour. 00:17:45:09 - 00:18:08:01 Steve Stratman Just depends on your locale. They've got to file their complaint. They've got to go ahead and take whatever evidence they take. They've got to file their brief and do their legal research. They've got to argue the case before the court, etc., etc.. So, the short answer is it will be easily several thousand dollars. I mean, easily, you know, ten, 15, $20,000 because you can see those steps. 00:18:08:03 - 00:18:28:07 Steve Stratman And of course, as you guys know, a little bit too, in litigation, there are all those intermediate steps. You know, it's called discovery. But you can go back and forth and you can have interrogatories and you can have requests for admissions, and you can take depositions and you do all kinds of things which, delay for number one and then add costs for number two. 00:18:28:09 - 00:19:02:15 Steve Stratman But doctor, one, one clause that I always put in these provisions is, again, if I represent the physician is to say, if this non-compete is ever successfully challenged, then all the legal fees and all the costs attendant to, a successful claim to enforce the non-compete is borne by the other party. And so my my position is, hey, if I'm confident enough to take the case and can recommend to the doctor that I think there's a a more likely than not chance or a probable chance, you're going to win. 00:19:02:17 - 00:19:13:09 Steve Stratman Well, then I'll go ahead and make certain in that clause, all the legal costs that that doctor incurs have to be paid by the losing party, which in that example is the employer. 00:19:13:11 - 00:19:17:13 Dr. Anthony Giuffrida That's great to know. I mean, I think that's really important for people to hear. 00:19:17:15 - 00:19:38:14 Steve Stratman The other thing to, doctor to bear in mind. And it's not in every provision, in every clause, in every contract. But but do bear in mind that litigation is expensive. It's costly. It's just a it's just a sinkhole. I always advise against it in favor of arbitration. And arbitration is a quicker way. It's a cheaper way. 00:19:38:20 - 00:20:03:06 Steve Stratman The arbitrator has the same power as a judge. And you go before a single arbitrator, and you make your argument, and that arbitrator can decide. And then again, I have the same provision, which is and if I'm the prevailing party, then all of my costs are paid for the losing party. And so again, both sides have to be sober about, whether they want to pursue it and how confident they feel. 00:20:03:08 - 00:20:32:00 Steve Stratman And then along that path, of course, could be a settlement. And along that path could be the employer gets nervous. The employer gets nervous because one they could lose and set a very bad precedent in their state. And number two, this could be costly. And so they could privately settle the case that just says, hey, just between the two of us, I'll let you out of the non-compete on some pretext of, hey, you're going far enough away even though you're within the boundary, or I don't see you as a threat. 00:20:32:00 - 00:20:37:17 Steve Stratman And so I'll let you out. But hey, this is a confidential settlement. Keep it to yourself and go about your business. 00:20:37:19 - 00:20:52:17 Reid Lancaster That's an awesome segue into the question I've been wanting to ask. Just an actually just on that client that you spoke of, one of our clients. Did he hire a lawyer, or was he just taking steps based on the direction that we were given him? 00:20:52:19 - 00:21:06:10 Justin Nabity That one there was a lawyer involved in that client situation. Was more so for the business. It wasn't for it. Was that asked that we were able to actually get those. So without having to go. 00:21:06:12 - 00:21:29:00 Reid Lancaster Yeah. So before you may need a lawyer. Doc just loves to negotiate contracts is what I'm business of. You know, there's a lot there's a lot of things that if you if you can say, hey, I'm represented by Doc Nation, and, they've seen thousands of these a year for about 15 years running now. Hey, there's some things that we can do before we need to hire a lawyer. 00:21:29:00 - 00:21:47:13 Reid Lancaster So I love that you say that, Steve, because we do see a lot of. Hey, between us, we'll bend a little bit, we'll bend a little. We'll bend this contract a little bit. We see that all the time, I think. I think the issue and they've just gotten comfortable. Administration has just gotten comfortable was saying everybody just says yes to the things we say. 00:21:47:15 - 00:22:03:11 Reid Lancaster Yeah. And and really an a large part when you know our client that he said, okay, I guess we got to do something different. And we said, hold up. No, no, no, no, no, let's have a conversation with this group and let's push back a little bit. And we saw we saw it happened. It was completely wiped. 00:22:03:13 - 00:22:38:18 Justin Nabity Yeah. I like what you said, Steve, about that the this so many are afraid. They're shy, they're timid. They think they're going to rock the boat. They're going to lose an offer or start off on the wrong note with the employer or have a bad reputation or something. I maintenance. And so they're they're scared. And when they get good counsel that has been there done that, that seen these before that can give them defensible reasonable calm and steps, language insertions, modifications employers are willing to accommodate. 00:22:38:18 - 00:22:40:12 Justin Nabity They make adjustments. There's almost a. 00:22:40:12 - 00:22:41:03 Steve Stratman Respect. 00:22:41:06 - 00:22:55:12 Reid Lancaster That is given to the physician to say, hey, they're buttoned up. They have they have representation and they care about what they're doing enough to have a team behind them. And there's almost a certain level of respect, when starting a new job. 00:22:55:14 - 00:23:15:17 Steve Stratman Oftentimes two, you raise a good point. Read about, just the negotiation process, because in the negotiation process, you know, the doctor might raise a number of issues about compensation, for example, or PTO or things like that. But oftentimes, as as always happens, there are trade offs, right? They're trade offs. And oftentimes you might get to a point. 00:23:15:17 - 00:23:34:04 Steve Stratman And I've seen this many times and so have all of you. You'll get to a point where, they're good, you know, they can live with, whatever the compromise was on compensation or whatever. But oftentimes all counsel the doctors, if they're on the position side to say, hey, I can live with this and I can live with that. 00:23:34:04 - 00:24:04:17 Steve Stratman And one tactic might be to just go back to them to say, employer, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to sign the agreement. I'll accommodate your point on this and that, but but I'm really pausing on this last issue, and this last issue is a big one, and it's the non-compete. I just can't see fit to confine myself or to exclude myself from opportunities within a particular geographic location, which could very much just rub my family life, my personal life, my professional life. 00:24:04:19 - 00:24:25:19 Steve Stratman And I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. And so while my pen is hovering over the page, I'm ready to sign this contract. I'm pausing until I hear from you that you can accommodate me in some way. Otherwise I'll pursue other opportunities which I have. And, and lo and behold, yeah, all the non negotiable. 00:24:25:21 - 00:25:00:10 Steve Stratman Cannot talk about it. Don't even raise it. Non-compete, gets blown up or it gets narrowed or gets modified. And so again, some of it just factors into tactics. It kind of factors into strategy. And how many issues you want to raise. And then pick your ones, which are your priority issues. And then again, don't be afraid to play some hardball, because to your points, all of you have made, if your, position on the employer is giving you a hard time, oftentimes they need you very badly, and, they can wiggle on some issue they thought was non negotiable or they said was non negotiable. 00:25:00:12 - 00:25:21:11 Reid Lancaster And so we're discussing this FTC all sweeping new rule here. And we're putting so much focus and so much attention on it which we should. But let's also stop and think, hey, that's one thing a group like Doc Nation does is, is they will help you get what you want. And this ruling doesn't necessarily, it it absolutely matters. 00:25:21:11 - 00:25:30:11 Reid Lancaster But there's steps to be taken before this is an all say or all do ruling. There's there's a lot we can do before we just walk away and say, no. 00:25:30:13 - 00:25:42:03 Justin Nabity It's not their only hope. That's right. You have to wait for the industry or a massive sweeping change to occur for there to be improvements so it can be changes to your individual circumstances that are making things better for you. 00:25:42:05 - 00:26:02:15 Steve Stratman Yeah. One one last point to, on that score, read to your point. The the FTC rule, even though it's been enjoined and maybe it may not come back, it serves a little bit as a momentum. It's a push. It kind of pushes the issue. And so that within the the states that permit them and there's about, you know, high 30s, about 40 ish, that permit them. 00:26:02:17 - 00:26:27:05 Steve Stratman They all see what's happening. And, and the legislatures which convene every year almost take this up very regularly, very regularly. And so the physicians need to be mindful that not only can they push back if it's permitted and stays in the contract in some form, but they really need, the help of Doc Nation, for example, or an attorney who can help them because literally these things are changing month to month. 00:26:27:08 - 00:26:51:19 Steve Stratman Montana and Pennsylvania a year ago permitted them, as of January 1st and, for more months, they're banned. Same with Minnesota. It happened in the last year. South Dakota happened a year ago, this past summer. And so the physicians need to be mindful of calling on a group like Doc Nation or their attorney or somebody to help them, because literally these things are changing, month to month. 00:26:53:15 - 00:26:54:17 Justin Nabity Awesome. 00:26:54:19 - 00:27:29:01 Steve Stratman Oh, by the way, before I forget, some of you, I know you, work with and represent, positions who might be under a J-1 contract there. You have or some kind of an immigration, requirement with regard to the immigration laws. Those things, oftentimes impose their own, very specific restrictions on non-compete. And so the, for example, a J-1 position under any state program and as you folks know, they coordinate with their state medical, societies, etc., and there are usually 30 J-1 slots in many states available, etc.. 00:27:29:03 - 00:27:54:21 Steve Stratman But, the state programs will oftentimes prohibit, prohibit the inclusion of a non-compete in any contract where the doctor is practicing in that particular state, regardless, regardless of whether the state law might permit them. And so that's a good a good example of where the federal immigration law, jumps over and supersedes or trumps any kind of a state law prohibition. 00:27:54:21 - 00:28:10:13 Steve Stratman And so if you're working with a position or advising or whatever a position who might be, subject to some immigration requirements, be mindful that, those requirements could, prohibit a non-compete. For one. 00:28:10:15 - 00:28:25:15 Reid Lancaster Thank you. Steve strengthened to have you, be a part of our team and your knowledge and your consistent research. So thank you for joining. That was a solid 20 minutes. I know this is going to be well received. Have a wonderful day. Thank you. Steve. 00:28:25:20 - 00:28:27:08 Steve Stratman Well, thank you for having me. 00:28:27:10 - 00:28:30:12 Reid Lancaster All right. Bye bye. Bye. 00:28:30:12 - 00:28:49:07 Unknown This has been the Doc Nation podcast. 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