00;00;00;01 - 00;00;01;25
That's the whole idea.

00;00;01;25 - 00;00;05;06
Like, the only reason you're hiring me
is because you have a different goal.

00;00;05;06 - 00;00;07;16
You have a much more broader.

00;00;07;16 - 00;00;11;15
Here's what I'm trying to do to this
audience are here's what I'm trying to say

00;00;11;15 - 00;00;13;13
or here's what I'm trying to accomplish.

00;00;13;13 - 00;00;29;29
Let's help you get there.

00;00;30;01 - 00;00;31;13
Hello, everybody.

00;00;31;13 - 00;00;32;27
Welcome back.

00;00;32;27 - 00;00;36;12
On this glorious day of which I don't know
which day

00;00;36;12 - 00;00;38;13
you're watching
or listening to this podcast on.

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So happy
whatever day you're celebrating today.

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Happy days to you.

00;00;43;00 - 00;00;46;07
Happy days to you.

00;00;46;10 - 00;00;47;13
Totally there.

00;00;47;13 - 00;00;49;27
This is behind the pixel
and Open Pixel podcast

00;00;49;27 - 00;00;53;02
where we try to bridge
the communication gap between those

00;00;53;02 - 00;00;56;17
who buy creative content
and those who make it now.

00;00;56;19 - 00;00;57;14
Hey, that's not bad.

00;00;57;14 - 00;00;59;24
That's better than I thought
you were going to do.

00;00;59;24 - 00;01;02;08
I'm on it. 24 seven.

00;01;02;08 - 00;01;07;22
You know,
I live, eat and breathe this podcast.

00;01;07;24 - 00;01;08;21
That's not true at all.

00;01;08;21 - 00;01;10;29
I have a very healthy boundary.

00;01;10;29 - 00;01;14;18
So today's episode is kind of

00;01;14;18 - 00;01;18;11
similar to an episode
we had previously where we kind of,

00;01;18;14 - 00;01;24;06
in a way, riffed a little bit,
reacted to a particular post that we saw

00;01;24;08 - 00;01;28;29
and kind of tried to give some insight
and some advice on the back

00;01;28;29 - 00;01;32;23
end about different ways
to approach that particular situation.

00;01;32;24 - 00;01;37;06
I think in the feed,
I think we called it an opinion episode.

00;01;37;10 - 00;01;38;28
That's what I tagged it as.

00;01;38;28 - 00;01;43;12
So every once in a while we'll do that
and there will still be some hacks

00;01;43;12 - 00;01;44;23
and B wipes and things like that.

00;01;44;23 - 00;01;46;11
But this is just a way to sort of fill

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in the times when we're busy
and don't have that much time to prep.

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Well,

00;01;52;17 - 00;01;53;15
sure.

00;01;53;15 - 00;01;58;20
I guess that touches a little bit
on the subject of today's topic as well.

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Okay.

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Just in the idea of,
well, we'll get into it.

00;02;02;06 - 00;02;04;10
Let's let's just jump in. Okay.

00;02;04;10 - 00;02;05;26
So you ready?

00;02;05;26 - 00;02;09;02
Do you have any other plugs
or any other things you want to get to?

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I got a haircut.

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I was going to leave it long,
but I go, okay, I cut it a little bit.

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I just, you know,
I was getting a little too lazy.

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Well, you looking real fly over there, so.

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Great. Thank you.

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Just in time for a podcast recording.

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Okay.

00;02;26;13 - 00;02;28;21
For context, Will has not heard this yet.

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Maybe you've seen the post.

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I don't know. Maybe I don't know.

00;02;32;06 - 00;02;35;17
But yeah, I think we're going to hear
potentially your reaction here.

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But I'll read it word for word.

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For the sake of I guess, anonymity

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and anonymity, I won't anonymously.

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I won't reveal the
the person's name who wrote this?

00;02;48;01 - 00;02;50;07
Yeah, we're going to
we're going to keep these anon.

00;02;50;07 - 00;02;53;02
Yeah. No.
I think that's what the kids say.

00;02;53;02 - 00;02;55;20
I'm pretty sure that's what they were.
Still so happy.

00;02;55;20 - 00;02;57;08
Okay, here we go.

00;02;57;08 - 00;03;01;07
I wonder why
small agencies and freelancers

00;03;01;10 - 00;03;03;25
post about how much money they make.

00;03;03;25 - 00;03;05;26
Is this a credibility thing?

00;03;05;26 - 00;03;07;28
Is it to inspire people?

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I guess the quote
my year break down, unquote

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angle of this sort of spins
it as maybe educational.

00;03;16;14 - 00;03;20;08
I was always taught to be low key
about that stuff.

00;03;20;11 - 00;03;25;10
Not to mention, I saw some big numbers
that made me question my life.

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I'm genuinely curious
about the motivation behind it.

00;03;28;28 - 00;03;30;23
Do you have any insights?

00;03;30;23 - 00;03;33;11
Please respond within 10 minutes.

00;03;33;11 - 00;03;36;20
Devil Emoji.

00;03;36;23 - 00;03;39;21
So I think that yes, I think

00;03;39;21 - 00;03;45;19
that was a callback to the other post
that was Please respond in 10 minutes.

00;03;45;21 - 00;03;50;06
That's hilarious. Yes.

00;03;50;08 - 00;03;50;15
Okay.

00;03;50;15 - 00;03;52;17
That post
made some really big rounds, huh?

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It really did. It really. Did. Right.

00;03;55;07 - 00;03;56;12
So the idea, the reason

00;03;56;12 - 00;04;00;20
why I brought this particular topic up
just for some context, is that

00;04;00;23 - 00;04;04;07
in our company currently,
we were just going through

00;04;04;07 - 00;04;08;25
reevaluating our values
and what we want our company to stand for.

00;04;08;27 - 00;04;11;07
And one of the things that came up for us

00;04;11;07 - 00;04;15;00
was transparency
and transparent information.

00;04;15;03 - 00;04;19;01
We kind of tied that a little more
related to the information

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that is shared through our campaigns
and through our messaging.

00;04;21;26 - 00;04;24;02
Yeah, the work. The work. The work itself.

00;04;24;02 - 00;04;24;23
Yeah.

00;04;24;23 - 00;04;29;12
But, you know, it can also apply
to this idea of being more transparent

00;04;29;12 - 00;04;33;01
as a community and as an industry in terms

00;04;33;01 - 00;04;36;07
of sharing our financial information.

00;04;36;07 - 00;04;38;18
So I kind of wanted
to get your take on it.

00;04;38;18 - 00;04;42;11
I have a feeling it's going to be a little
bit different than how I feel about it.

00;04;42;14 - 00;04;45;00
But yeah, any initial reactions
or thoughts?

00;04;45;00 - 00;04;48;29
My initial reaction was like,
That's a great point.

00;04;49;03 - 00;04;52;08
I actually had the same feeling
when I've seen those posts.

00;04;52;09 - 00;04;56;23
So for those of you who don't know,
maybe aren't as active,

00;04;56;25 - 00;04;59;18
maybe on LinkedIn, I don't personally
have seen them on LinkedIn

00;04;59;18 - 00;05;05;16
because yeah, because I
that's the platform I use mostly, although

00;05;05;19 - 00;05;07;08
I am getting an Instagram.

00;05;07;08 - 00;05;09;25
Oh, there's the plug, you know.

00;05;09;25 - 00;05;10;17
What do I think?

00;05;10;17 - 00;05;13;13
I think I think transparency is great.

00;05;13;13 - 00;05;17;04
I am all for transparency
and I think it's your

00;05;17;07 - 00;05;21;07
I think it's your right to talk about
your numbers if you really wanted to.

00;05;21;08 - 00;05;27;06
I think one of the things
inside of our industry as like artists or,

00;05;27;09 - 00;05;31;07
you know, VFX is slightly different,
but kind of in the same boat.

00;05;31;09 - 00;05;33;25
It's the artists doing the work
behind the scenes.

00;05;33;25 - 00;05;37;05
And oftentimes the the people

00;05;37;05 - 00;05;41;16
running the show,
the people who are owners like us or,

00;05;41;19 - 00;05;46;07
you know, big giant corporation executives
that have boards and things like that.

00;05;46;10 - 00;05;49;02
They, in my opinion,

00;05;49;02 - 00;05;54;05
are are structured
so that information doesn't spread.

00;05;54;07 - 00;05;54;16
Right.

00;05;54;16 - 00;05;58;15
And there's been a lot of other things
that pop up legally,

00;05;58;17 - 00;06;01;02
like I think in New York now, it's illegal

00;06;01;02 - 00;06;05;04
to ask about your prior pay
or something like that.

00;06;05;05 - 00;06;06;29
There's like laws and.

00;06;06;29 - 00;06;08;09
Ask for your. Pay.

00;06;08;09 - 00;06;10;25
And if you're. Interviewing for a job.
Yeah.

00;06;10;25 - 00;06;12;09
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

00;06;12;09 - 00;06;13;26
During interviews. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

00;06;13;26 - 00;06;19;07
So, you know,
I think it's I think it's part of today's

00;06;19;10 - 00;06;25;23
sharing generation of being like, hey,
this is what I make and this is how

00;06;25;26 - 00;06;27;11
this is how I made that.

00;06;27;11 - 00;06;31;24
And I think that there is some value
to that as a as a fellow freelancer,

00;06;31;24 - 00;06;34;24
someone who's probably doing
something very similar.

00;06;34;26 - 00;06;38;28
You might feel like that's a really good
insight into how they did it.

00;06;39;03 - 00;06;41;24
You know,
how do they make that much money?

00;06;41;24 - 00;06;45;27
And if they broke it down
by like client type, I've seen that.

00;06;45;29 - 00;06;50;25
I've seen some like, here's my lowest
and here's my highest paying job.

00;06;50;27 - 00;06;56;05
You might not feel so alone in trying
to figure out, did I make a lot of money?

00;06;56;05 - 00;06;57;10
Did I not make a lot of money?

00;06;57;10 - 00;07;01;04
Like, why was it so low this year
or high this year or whatever?

00;07;01;04 - 00;07;03;23
Like, I think that's a good thing.

00;07;03;23 - 00;07;06;16
Like,
I think sharing your numbers is fine.

00;07;06;16 - 00;07;09;07
Honestly,
I think I'm coming to that conclusion.

00;07;09;07 - 00;07;13;11
I can see why it would make you question
your life choices

00;07;13;13 - 00;07;16;07
because some artists
make way more than other artists.

00;07;16;07 - 00;07;20;27
And and, you know, we run a studio,
we make probably more than a singular

00;07;20;27 - 00;07;21;06
artist.

00;07;21;06 - 00;07;25;28
So, like, you know, there's
there's different reasons for that.

00;07;26;01 - 00;07;27;07
And we could break down those reasons.

00;07;27;07 - 00;07;29;04
There's,
you know, obviously artistic skill,

00;07;29;04 - 00;07;32;04
but also the clients that you hold,
there's also like

00;07;32;11 - 00;07;35;07
your level of communication
with the client.

00;07;35;07 - 00;07;38;22
How well you communicate
is is a really big factor.

00;07;38;22 - 00;07;41;16
And I've heard it in a lot of podcasts
and a lot of places where like

00;07;41;16 - 00;07;45;12
the communication is actually primary
secondary to like the artistic work.

00;07;45;12 - 00;07;49;18
So a lot of folks try to like artistic
work is like

00;07;49;21 - 00;07;52;06
it's still super important, but

00;07;52;06 - 00;07;55;16
it's not as important
as being able to communicate clearly,

00;07;55;21 - 00;07;59;18
understand the problem, figure out
how your artwork is going to benefit

00;07;59;18 - 00;08;04;06
their pipeline or their workflow
and the end result of the piece right?

00;08;04;08 - 00;08;07;26
And this I'm just talking about animators,
not necessarily designers or,

00;08;07;29 - 00;08;09;07
you know, it's a different workflow

00;08;09;07 - 00;08;12;18
or approach depending on what
type of artistic work you do.

00;08;12;20 - 00;08;15;03
So yeah, I think it's a good thing.

00;08;15;03 - 00;08;16;19
Honestly,

00;08;16;21 - 00;08;17;13
I do.

00;08;17;13 - 00;08;21;23
I do see why it might be
harsh and jarring, and I think

00;08;21;26 - 00;08;24;22
there is another thing in there
in that post that said, like

00;08;24;22 - 00;08;27;12
I was taught to like keep this low key.

00;08;27;12 - 00;08;30;05
Yeah, I think that that is Yeah.

00;08;30;05 - 00;08;33;24
That's like bad. Yeah.

00;08;33;26 - 00;08;35;25
Right. That, that, that. It's.

00;08;35;25 - 00;08;40;04
Kind of like Yeah that gives me vibes of
like don't talk about your feelings

00;08;40;06 - 00;08;43;01
kind of or don't you know
don't bring up a certain thing

00;08;43;01 - 00;08;47;17
that's going on in your life
because it might be seen as like whatever.

00;08;47;19 - 00;08;49;21
Keeping stuff in is never good.

00;08;49;21 - 00;08;54;02
And I think part of don't talk about money
or keep money to yourself

00;08;54;02 - 00;08;55;12
or anything like that.

00;08;55;12 - 00;08;58;04
Now, that said, do
I feel like sharing my numbers?

00;08;58;04 - 00;09;01;27
No, not necessarily,
because no one is asking me about it.

00;09;01;29 - 00;09;03;16
Yeah, No one is asking me about it.

00;09;03;16 - 00;09;06;09
And I also I
you know, I just don't want to.

00;09;06;09 - 00;09;10;00
Yeah, this is where the idea of
this is where I knew you would.

00;09;10;00 - 00;09;10;26
You would take it.

00;09;10;26 - 00;09;11;21
Because I know that, like,

00;09;11;21 - 00;09;15;07
as a company, we have not shared
our financial information.

00;09;15;14 - 00;09;15;28
We have not.

00;09;15;28 - 00;09;20;03
I think it would depend on the intention
behind it.

00;09;20;04 - 00;09;24;08
Some of the comments that I saw
were On the one hand, you're talking about

00;09;24;08 - 00;09;28;02
the idea of like deconstructing
that idea of everyone

00;09;28;02 - 00;09;32;05
needs to keep their finances closed
and not share anything else.

00;09;32;05 - 00;09;34;12
So that, you know, it's
we're more competitive

00;09;34;12 - 00;09;35;01
or less or whatever,

00;09;35;01 - 00;09;37;05
whatever that reason might be,
which I agree

00;09;37;05 - 00;09;40;14
with the idea of deconstructing this
and being able to openly share

00;09;40;14 - 00;09;44;21
this is what we're making in my
but then there's also this idea of like

00;09;44;24 - 00;09;49;07
depending on in a way,
what your actual numbers are.

00;09;49;14 - 00;09;53;12
It could be seen as a form of clout,
like you're trying to say, like,

00;09;53;12 - 00;09;57;22
look how great we did this year, you know,
And it really depends on

00;09;57;24 - 00;10;00;16
how you're talking about it,
how you're framing it,

00;10;00;16 - 00;10;03;16
like what the intention
or the goal is behind sharing.

00;10;03;22 - 00;10;07;26
There's something to be acknowledged there
that I support the idea

00;10;07;26 - 00;10;12;07
of talking about,
like even open pixels finances.

00;10;12;07 - 00;10;17;11
We might disagree on that side,
but I believe in that idea of saying

00;10;17;13 - 00;10;20;21
this is why it's important to share it

00;10;20;24 - 00;10;23;29
as opposed to just saying,
okay, everyone's doing a year end

00;10;23;29 - 00;10;27;03
review, Here's my year end review,
which is, which is different,

00;10;27;03 - 00;10;31;19
I think, than than stating
this is what somebody could learn from it.

00;10;31;22 - 00;10;34;25
Yeah, I think that's what's missing for me
from that kind of post.

00;10;35;02 - 00;10;37;13
Like there's
no teaching there necessarily. There are.

00;10;37;13 - 00;10;39;26
There have been some that
that I mean, again,

00;10;39;26 - 00;10;41;20
I think you hit the nail on the head.
It's like what

00;10;41;20 - 00;10;44;20
your intention and what your messaging
is behind that type of post.

00;10;44;23 - 00;10;49;04
I think, you know, if you frame it around
the education, this is how I got here.

00;10;49;04 - 00;10;53;21
I did this, I did this
like you should do the same thing

00;10;53;24 - 00;10;56;13
or something similar
that might be more helpful

00;10;56;13 - 00;11;00;08
than just like, here are my numbers
because I think here my numbers kind of

00;11;00;11 - 00;11;04;09
miscues it towards,
Hey, look at me, this is what I did.

00;11;04;09 - 00;11;06;09
And like

00;11;06;11 - 00;11;09;07
maybe there's a you could do it too
but that yeah yeah.

00;11;09;07 - 00;11;11;10
You need the how right like how you need.

00;11;11;10 - 00;11;13;12
To how. How you got there. Yeah.

00;11;13;12 - 00;11;14;10
Mm hmm.

00;11;14;10 - 00;11;14;21
Yeah.

00;11;14;21 - 00;11;16;24
And then the other thing too, is that I.

00;11;16;24 - 00;11;22;10
I don't want to derail the idea
that you're an artist because of money.

00;11;22;10 - 00;11;23;08
Like, there's a,

00;11;23;08 - 00;11;27;12
you know, there's a form of, like, hey,
this is how much money I made.

00;11;27;12 - 00;11;30;12
You should be making
that same amount of dollars.

00;11;30;12 - 00;11;34;02
And that's not necessarily true
because the type of artwork or the type

00;11;34;02 - 00;11;38;13
of topics or the type of passions
that you have aren't the same.

00;11;38;13 - 00;11;39;29
They're not going to be the same,

00;11;39;29 - 00;11;42;01
and your artistic skills
aren't going to be the same.

00;11;42;01 - 00;11;46;08
So I think that there's yeah, there's
like a form of separation where like,

00;11;46;11 - 00;11;47;18
I don't want to just,

00;11;47;18 - 00;11;50;18
you know, send people off and say, here's
my here's our numbers.

00;11;50;21 - 00;11;53;05
If you're a small student,
you should be doing these numbers too.

00;11;53;05 - 00;11;56;05
Now it's like we focus on X, Y, Z,

00;11;56;10 - 00;11;59;00
and this is how we got here.

00;11;59;00 - 00;12;04;10
And that's maybe something you could do
if you tweak that formula a bit, you know?

00;12;04;11 - 00;12;05;16
Right, Right.

00;12;05;16 - 00;12;06;19
No, that's very true.

00;12;06;19 - 00;12;06;27
Yeah.

00;12;06;27 - 00;12;10;26
I think if we do talk about our numbers,
I'd want to think about it

00;12;10;26 - 00;12;15;27
from the perspective of why
we're also choosing those numbers.

00;12;15;27 - 00;12;17;00
Not necessarily.

00;12;17;00 - 00;12;20;18
And I don't even know if it's necessary
to say, here's what we make.

00;12;20;18 - 00;12;23;18
I think it's for me, it's more important
to maybe share.

00;12;23;19 - 00;12;26;03
Here's what we charge
and here's why we charge it.

00;12;26;03 - 00;12;29;10
And here's like
because I think that's a different model.

00;12;29;17 - 00;12;33;22
If I came out and said, Oh, I made,
you know, $100,000 this year,

00;12;33;24 - 00;12;37;24
but my situation, like you were
saying, is very different from yours.

00;12;37;26 - 00;12;38;05
Right?

00;12;38;05 - 00;12;42;23
That's a that's a different angle
than saying, here's what we charge,

00;12;42;23 - 00;12;48;01
here's why we charge it, and here's
how you can think about charging either

00;12;48;01 - 00;12;51;26
similar rates or different rates
depending on your circumstances.

00;12;51;28 - 00;12;54;26
What is in that that changes
the entire type of a post, right?

00;12;54;26 - 00;12;55;06
I know.

00;12;55;06 - 00;12;57;09
I think that's that
that's the other thing is like if you're

00;12;57;09 - 00;13;00;12
if you're going to do a year and numbers
review post,

00;13;00;12 - 00;13;03;11
then then you're expected to be like,
here's my numbers.

00;13;03;11 - 00;13;06;00
And then like, that's it. That's the post.

00;13;06;00 - 00;13;08;28
That's why we didn't really do one,
because that's not necessarily

00;13;08;28 - 00;13;09;22
what's helpful.

00;13;09;22 - 00;13;12;01
I think, you know, being helpful
online is kind of.

00;13;12;01 - 00;13;13;25
I guess it depends. Yeah. Yeah.

00;13;13;25 - 00;13;17;13
That's in the that's in the post straight
because like does it.

00;13;17;13 - 00;13;21;06
In the eye of the
it's. In the eye of the post,

00;13;21;09 - 00;13;24;07
eye of the post beholder or whatever
whatever you call it.

00;13;24;07 - 00;13;25;14
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;13;25;14 - 00;13;29;03
I think because there are people out there
who have definitely done

00;13;29;05 - 00;13;32;20
really detailed breakdowns
and have continued

00;13;32;20 - 00;13;36;29
to also provide resources
to creatives and freelancers about the

00;13;36;29 - 00;13;41;06
how maybe, you know, because you,
you can't do it all in one post.

00;13;41;09 - 00;13;43;04
That's, that's the thing about it too.

00;13;43;04 - 00;13;45;03
Yeah. You do have a limit.
Yeah that's. True. Yeah.

00;13;45;03 - 00;13;49;03
So you might have a numbers in review post
but then also continue to post.

00;13;49;03 - 00;13;50;20
Here's how we got there.

00;13;50;20 - 00;13;52;29
Here's
what our goals are for next quarter.

00;13;52;29 - 00;13;56;10
Like that
I think is not a bad thing at all.

00;13;56;10 - 00;13;58;14
I think that's a great thing to do.

00;13;58;14 - 00;14;01;14
And then yeah, the other thing
I want to tie this back to like

00;14;01;14 - 00;14;04;10
clients and, and communication
folks, right?

00;14;04;10 - 00;14;06;24
Like so nonprofits,

00;14;06;24 - 00;14;11;29
if you're a nonprofit listening,
your numbers are disclosed automatically.

00;14;12;02 - 00;14;14;04
They're publicly available.

00;14;14;04 - 00;14;16;01
Yeah, you're publicly available.

00;14;16;01 - 00;14;19;27
You can go and see how much money
someone spent an organization

00;14;19;27 - 00;14;22;16
spent on marketing or communications.

00;14;22;16 - 00;14;25;01
You could go
and see how much money they made total,

00;14;25;01 - 00;14;28;28
how many dollars in the bank,
like that's it's already there.

00;14;28;29 - 00;14;31;22
A lot of people don't look one
because they don't know where to look

00;14;31;22 - 00;14;34;27
but to because you know
who's really paying attention

00;14;34;27 - 00;14;36;28
when they have their own problems
kind of thing.

00;14;36;28 - 00;14;39;24
So like, that's one version of it.

00;14;39;24 - 00;14;43;13
The other version is publicly held
companies, right?

00;14;43;13 - 00;14;46;27
They have disclosures of similar things.

00;14;46;27 - 00;14;48;10
If you listen to like Yahoo!

00;14;48;10 - 00;14;51;15
Finance, every so often they're like,
you know,

00;14;51;18 - 00;14;55;22
Tesla had X amount of dollars
last quarter, you know, whatever, whatever

00;14;55;22 - 00;14;58;22
in the earnings meeting they talked about,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00;14;58;22 - 00;15;01;28
So all of that, the numbers are disclosed.

00;15;01;28 - 00;15;05;26
It's just you might not be in those
circles listening to those dollar amounts.

00;15;05;26 - 00;15;09;04
And so as an artist,
I guess if you're listening to this,

00;15;09;07 - 00;15;12;01
you're saying, okay, well,
maybe you didn't know that.

00;15;12;01 - 00;15;13;08
I don't know.

00;15;13;08 - 00;15;15;27
That might be something
to think about as a private company.

00;15;15;27 - 00;15;19;00
Those are the only ones that I think
don't have disclosures.

00;15;19;02 - 00;15;23;28
One of the things that clients do that
that is also on the side of,

00;15;23;28 - 00;15;29;01
you know, transparency or not
transparency is coming up with budgets

00;15;29;04 - 00;15;31;26
which are set somewhere.

00;15;31;26 - 00;15;34;19
I know they are
because I know it works, right?

00;15;34;19 - 00;15;36;11
If you're a marketer,
you've set the budget for the year

00;15;36;11 - 00;15;39;29
probably in January
or in Q1 or Q4 of last year

00;15;40;02 - 00;15;45;00
and you know how much money you have
and then you say, well, we have a project.

00;15;45;02 - 00;15;47;27
Here's the thing and

00;15;47;29 - 00;15;48;22
tell me what it costs.

00;15;48;22 - 00;15;49;11
What's your budget?

00;15;49;11 - 00;15;51;22
I don't know yet. Just tell me what it is.

00;15;51;22 - 00;15;52;11
You see what I mean?

00;15;52;11 - 00;15;56;12
Like there's a level of like dishonesty
there

00;15;56;15 - 00;16;00;06
that that happens and that's that like,
I guess is okay because you're trying

00;16;00;06 - 00;16;02;05
to get the best deal,
like you're incentivized

00;16;02;05 - 00;16;04;25
as an organization
to get the best deal possible.

00;16;04;25 - 00;16;08;26
Yeah, but you can say that that happens
with companies and freelancers too, right?

00;16;08;26 - 00;16;10;16
Because they're. Oh, Oh. Yeah, yeah.

00;16;10;16 - 00;16;11;05
That's what I'm talking about.

00;16;11;05 - 00;16;13;24
If you come at a freelancer
and you're like, Hey, what's your rate?

00;16;13;24 - 00;16;17;14
Versus like, I think a lot of times
when we come at it, we usually say like,

00;16;17;21 - 00;16;21;27
here's what our project budget is and
like, here's what we can work with then.

00;16;21;29 - 00;16;25;25
And then also saying like, we want to hire
you for the rate that you have.

00;16;25;29 - 00;16;29;29
And if they ever ask why, I usually
break it down really deeply.

00;16;30;02 - 00;16;32;24
Yeah, I feel like there's that level

00;16;32;24 - 00;16;36;12
of transparency that has to happen
within the organizations too.

00;16;36;12 - 00;16;36;24
You're right.

00;16;36;24 - 00;16;39;23
Within the client,
you know, vendor relationship

00;16;39;23 - 00;16;43;22
and within the studio freelancer
relationship for sure.

00;16;43;25 - 00;16;44;05
Yeah.

00;16;44;05 - 00;16;47;05
And if a client comes to you
and says, like,

00;16;47;11 - 00;16;49;22
I have this project, what's the budget?

00;16;49;22 - 00;16;52;05
I don't know. Tell me what it will cost.

00;16;52;05 - 00;16;54;26
And to me, I kind of want to say, Well,

00;16;54;26 - 00;16;58;18
I don't know what it will cost
to tell me what your budget is like.

00;16;58;23 - 00;17;00;18
There's a level of pushback.

00;17;00;18 - 00;17;02;26
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know what's your budget?

00;17;02;26 - 00;17;06;13
And then this is, this is where I think
that value based pricing comes in.

00;17;06;13 - 00;17;10;20
Well, what's your goal
and how are you trying to get there?

00;17;10;22 - 00;17;12;01
Let's help you get there.

00;17;12;01 - 00;17;14;18
And you pay me 10% of getting there.

00;17;14;18 - 00;17;16;26
And you know, what's that cost to you?

00;17;16;26 - 00;17;19;05
What is it worth to you to do this thing?

00;17;19;05 - 00;17;21;27
And I think that that's a it's a
it's a much better model.

00;17;21;27 - 00;17;25;24
I'm not saying we practice it here, but
having that conversation is very important

00;17;25;24 - 00;17;29;08
and just taking the leap to say like,
Hey, again, for marketers, communication

00;17;29;08 - 00;17;33;10
people, nonprofits, people who are
in the buying position here expect that

00;17;33;15 - 00;17;38;11
to come at some point from more people
because that's the whole idea.

00;17;38;11 - 00;17;41;23
Like the only reason you're hiring me
is because you have a different goal.

00;17;41;23 - 00;17;47;14
You have a much more broader here's what
I'm trying to do to these this audience.

00;17;47;14 - 00;17;50;13
So here's what I'm trying to say or here's
what I'm trying to accomplish.

00;17;50;13 - 00;17;52;17
Let's help you get there, right?

00;17;52;17 - 00;17;56;00
Let's help
you get to that place. Rather than saying

00;17;56;02 - 00;17;59;00
what are the dollars and cents
that are going to get us to this place.

00;17;59;00 - 00;17;59;11
Yeah.

00;17;59;11 - 00;18;01;13
So I'm totally with you on the value based

00;18;01;13 - 00;18;05;14
pricing side and right for that
for our transparency sake, we

00;18;05;17 - 00;18;08;06
we use a day rate currently,
which is a little bit different.

00;18;08;06 - 00;18;12;00
We use a day rate on a sliding scale
depending on the type of project,

00;18;12;00 - 00;18;15;01
the style type,
which I think we've talked about

00;18;15;01 - 00;18;18;22
so many times
and yet no one really gets it.

00;18;18;24 - 00;18;20;01
Style type changes.

00;18;20;01 - 00;18;23;27
It's really, for us, a four quadrant style
type thing.

00;18;23;29 - 00;18;25;15
I. Like, I could reveal.

00;18;25;15 - 00;18;26;21
For another day.

00;18;26;21 - 00;18;27;17
You know, as I go out.

00;18;27;17 - 00;18;29;16
Okay. Yeah,
we should know. We should. I have.

00;18;29;16 - 00;18;31;10
That's a. Tease. That's a tease.

00;18;31;10 - 00;18;35;26
For a future conversation.

00;18;35;29 - 00;18;36;08
Yeah.

00;18;36;08 - 00;18;38;08
No, it's an interesting topic.
I mean, I think don't.

00;18;38;08 - 00;18;40;01
I don't think
I would actually ever disclose

00;18;40;01 - 00;18;43;06
my numbers, honestly,
because every year is different.

00;18;43;09 - 00;18;47;18
Every year is like it's super high or
super low and like, it's a rollercoaster.

00;18;47;21 - 00;18;49;25
It's a roller coaster

00;18;49;25 - 00;18;52;10
financially, when you own a business.

00;18;52;10 - 00;18;53;02
So I also.

00;18;53;02 - 00;18;54;01
Want to acknowledge there

00;18;54;01 - 00;18;57;10
that that might also depend
on your financial structure, right?

00;18;57;10 - 00;18;59;19
In our case, I'm I'm happy to share that.

00;18;59;19 - 00;19;04;21
Like we basically bootstrap everything
so we don't have investors,

00;19;04;21 - 00;19;08;20
we don't have loans,
we don't have debt, which is a wonderful.

00;19;08;22 - 00;19;11;10
We have we have a tiny bit of debt
because we have a credit card.

00;19;11;10 - 00;19;12;11
But that's true.

00;19;12;11 - 00;19;15;25
Yeah, but that's
but that's like our personal choice

00;19;15;25 - 00;19;18;01
in terms of how we manage our finances.

00;19;18;01 - 00;19;22;24
And so I think it's probably where I feel
the need to share

00;19;22;24 - 00;19;26;05
transparency is on that front to tell
people like

00;19;26;05 - 00;19;29;05
these are the different types
of financial models you can get into.

00;19;29;10 - 00;19;34;23
Here are the pros and cons of it
and you know, as owners, I think it's also

00;19;34;25 - 00;19;38;24
I think it's also important
to like this dynamic right here of like

00;19;38;27 - 00;19;42;04
I would personally be comfortable
sharing our numbers

00;19;42;11 - 00;19;44;02
and Will's not as comfortable.

00;19;44;02 - 00;19;48;13
Like, it's
my responsibility as an owner and a leader

00;19;48;13 - 00;19;52;21
and somebody who respects Will
to also be mindful of his boundaries here.

00;19;52;23 - 00;19;55;21
And so like
if you don't see if you don't see a post

00;19;55;21 - 00;19;57;29
about us sharing our numbers,
you can just blame Will.

00;19;57;29 - 00;19;58;29
That's really.

00;19;58;29 - 00;20;01;21
Oh, wow, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

00;20;01;21 - 00;20;03;09
Firing the shots?

00;20;03;09 - 00;20;05;04
No, no, I think it's more.

00;20;05;04 - 00;20;06;02
No, that's fine. Blame me.

00;20;06;02 - 00;20;06;12
No, no.

00;20;06;12 - 00;20;07;01
Absolutely.

00;20;07;01 - 00;20;09;25
I will take no,
but there is something to that.

00;20;09;25 - 00;20;14;01
I don't think we talk about a lot
in terms of like owners having

00;20;14;07 - 00;20;16;07
and this is
I think we should get into this more.

00;20;16;07 - 00;20;19;27
But just the idea that like as owners,
you might have differing opinions

00;20;19;27 - 00;20;24;15
and how you go about making decisions
is going to be reliant on

00;20;24;18 - 00;20;28;19
where you both trust each other,
where you both like are comfortable,

00;20;28;19 - 00;20;32;03
where you're both like, this is a boundary
and I'm not going to cross it.

00;20;32;03 - 00;20;33;12
Like, you know what I mean?

00;20;33;12 - 00;20;35;07
There's
just there's something to that, too.

00;20;35;07 - 00;20;38;07
I think there's a different dynamic
from sharing your numbers when you're

00;20;38;07 - 00;20;43;26
an individual versus
your like in a multi person company

00;20;43;29 - 00;20;47;27
in terms of founding and like investor
structure and all that kind of stuff.

00;20;47;27 - 00;20;48;29
Yeah, that's a good point.

00;20;48;29 - 00;20;51;19
As it as an individual,
you can just share whatever you want.

00;20;51;19 - 00;20;54;26
One thing that it just reminded me
when you're talking

00;20;54;29 - 00;20;57;11
is the one of the bigger reasons.

00;20;57;11 - 00;20;59;05
I think that I don't want
to share my numbers or

00;20;59;05 - 00;21;03;11
our numbers is because of the posts
that you just brought up.

00;21;03;11 - 00;21;06;11
Like the fact that you like
this person's like,

00;21;06;17 - 00;21;09;17
it made me question
everything about my life.

00;21;09;23 - 00;21;14;05
I don't want to cause that, you know,
that emotional pain to someone online.

00;21;14;05 - 00;21;17;02
I don't want I like
I don't want to be the source of like,

00;21;17;02 - 00;21;22;20
you know, jealousy or sadness or whatever
for this other person on the other end.

00;21;22;20 - 00;21;24;12
Like, that's just not what I want to do.

00;21;24;12 - 00;21;28;24
So, you know, I could see how a post
like that could lead there very easily,

00;21;28;24 - 00;21;32;00
very quickly to be like,
Oh my God, I've been doing animation for,

00;21;32;03 - 00;21;33;19
you know, 20 years.

00;21;33;19 - 00;21;35;11
And this person who just started

00;21;35;11 - 00;21;37;27
is making ten times
more than I've ever made in my life.

00;21;37;27 - 00;21;39;08
Like, that's that's huge.

00;21;39;08 - 00;21;40;24
Like, you know, I don't know.

00;21;40;24 - 00;21;45;29
It's yeah, social media
is a very easy place to kind of

00;21;46;02 - 00;21;49;13
start feeling that self-doubt and
that insecurity about what you're doing.

00;21;49;13 - 00;21;51;17
So I totally get where you're coming from.

00;21;51;17 - 00;21;55;16
I think that I will say
to those who who do post

00;21;55;16 - 00;21;59;14
and are transparent about their numbers,
I say, more power to you if you like.

00;21;59;18 - 00;22;02;03
You know,
if you're educating along the way

00;22;02;03 - 00;22;04;20
and you're teaching people
how to do it, like awesome.

00;22;04;20 - 00;22;07;13
I think we're happy
to support on that front.

00;22;07;13 - 00;22;11;08
And so I think, you know, sure, maybe I'm
speaking on behalf of both of us,

00;22;11;08 - 00;22;14;13
but I feel like I'd want to join in

00;22;14;13 - 00;22;18;15
on that conversation
of at least the education aspect of.

00;22;18;15 - 00;22;21;14
It, of the how. Yeah, of the how for sure.

00;22;21;14 - 00;22;21;22
Yeah.

00;22;21;22 - 00;22;26;11
That's the that's where
I can stretch to you and compromise on.

00;22;26;13 - 00;22;26;19
Yeah.

00;22;26;19 - 00;22;28;12
One of the numbers. Yeah.

00;22;28;12 - 00;22;32;13
The other thing that's in my head too
is that like you know our industry again

00;22;32;18 - 00;22;35;18
artists working
behind the scenes making it happen.

00;22;35;24 - 00;22;39;07
There have been several times in history

00;22;39;07 - 00;22;42;13
where in history in our recent history

00;22;42;15 - 00;22;47;07
that we're all sharing our numbers on
like a Google sheet.

00;22;47;10 - 00;22;48;27
Yeah, the. Spreadsheet, Google Drive.

00;22;48;27 - 00;22;52;05
Doc Yeah, there's so many that I've been
I have a whole air table

00;22;52;05 - 00;22;55;23
of like people's salaries
and like, anonymously.

00;22;55;23 - 00;22;59;11
But you know how much people make
at Nickelodeon or how much people

00;22;59;11 - 00;23;02;17
make and, you know,
all these other big, large studios.

00;23;02;17 - 00;23;05;17
You know, there's a big spreadsheet
out there that like, yeah, you can.

00;23;05;18 - 00;23;08;05
And the numbers are wildly different.

00;23;08;05 - 00;23;09;24
They literally, yeah, entirely different.

00;23;09;24 - 00;23;14;24
And so creating that transparency
will also lead to maybe more conversations

00;23;14;24 - 00;23;19;03
like this, more conversations about,
you know, what are people making and why?

00;23;19;07 - 00;23;20;27
Why is it so different?

00;23;20;27 - 00;23;25;17
You know, how come females are making
less, Why're minorities making less?

00;23;25;19 - 00;23;27;26
Why are you know,

00;23;27;28 - 00;23;30;17
how come one person who's been in
the industry

00;23;30;17 - 00;23;32;05
is making way more than this person?

00;23;32;05 - 00;23;34;18
Like there are different answers to that.

00;23;34;18 - 00;23;38;08
Some of them are great and acceptable and
some of them are not acceptable at all.

00;23;38;08 - 00;23;38;17
Yeah.

00;23;38;17 - 00;23;41;09
Why is there a job application
for an AA role?

00;23;41;09 - 00;23;43;22
That's $1,000,000 a year.

00;23;43;22 - 00;23;45;05
Million dollar AA role?

00;23;45;05 - 00;23;49;07
Yeah, I wanted to segment that,
but that just it's not going to work out

00;23;49;07 - 00;23;50;09
for me. I'm also.

00;23;50;09 - 00;23;53;00
Yeah, I think I.

00;23;53;00 - 00;23;54;29
Oh God, I don't think.

00;23;54;29 - 00;23;57;26
I don't think we could ever work together
if you did.

00;23;57;26 - 00;24;00;19
You know, I would just type away
my creative thoughts.

00;24;00;19 - 00;24;01;23
Oh boy.

00;24;01;23 - 00;24;04;12
That's a that's a topic for another day.

00;24;04;12 - 00;24;06;07
Let me just type in my creative thoughts.

00;24;06;07 - 00;24;09;19
Eventually,
Elon Musk will create the neuro link,

00;24;09;19 - 00;24;12;12
and I'll just be able to think my creative
thoughts. And then.

00;24;12;12 - 00;24;13;15
And then it'll happen.

00;24;13;15 - 00;24;14;29
Total quick side tangent.

00;24;14;29 - 00;24;19;00
We had a better idea
once that was Elon's musk

00;24;19;00 - 00;24;24;09
and it was a perfume cologne
that smelt like Elon Musk.

00;24;24;11 - 00;24;25;07
Yeah.

00;24;25;07 - 00;24;28;13
So it's this was a bad idea.

00;24;28;15 - 00;24;30;03
Yeah. Yeah.

00;24;30;03 - 00;24;32;11
Well, thank you so much for listening.

00;24;32;11 - 00;24;34;23
This is conversation I think. Yeah.

00;24;34;23 - 00;24;36;16
If you have any comments.

00;24;36;16 - 00;24;41;03
I would be curious to hear what your take
is on, on this transparency side

00;24;41;03 - 00;24;41;28
of sharing numbers

00;24;41;28 - 00;24;45;20
and like what it's done for you,
whether positively or negatively.

00;24;45;20 - 00;24;50;04
And I do feel strongly
about this idea of deconstructing this

00;24;50;06 - 00;24;54;02
this like secrecy behind everything,
you know, just for some transparency

00;24;54;02 - 00;24;57;27
here as well, like as as owners,
I think we're trying to

00;24;57;29 - 00;25;01;18
if we're defining transparency
as a value in our company

00;25;01;18 - 00;25;05;11
now, we need to define
tangibly what that means for us.

00;25;05;13 - 00;25;07;18
And so when this conversation came.

00;25;07;18 - 00;25;10;17
Up, how are we
how how are we living that value?

00;25;10;17 - 00;25;11;17
Yes, exactly.

00;25;11;17 - 00;25;14;01
And so there might be
there might still be boundaries there.

00;25;14;01 - 00;25;17;24
There might still be like conversations
that we have yet to tap into.

00;25;17;24 - 00;25;19;11
I think this was one of them.

00;25;19;11 - 00;25;22;10
So I'm I'm glad we we touched on it.

00;25;22;13 - 00;25;26;06
And I hope maybe that the listeners
got a little bit of insight

00;25;26;08 - 00;25;30;01
and maybe some transparency
into like how we talk about these things

00;25;30;01 - 00;25;35;01
and how we operate a little bit more
where we're defining transparency well.

00;25;35;04 - 00;25;36;28
We'll let you know where we get where.

00;25;36;28 - 00;25;40;05
But the conclusion of that
is throughout the year.

00;25;40;07 - 00;25;43;15
Yeah, I hope you found this interesting
and feel free

00;25;43;15 - 00;25;47;24
to leave your reactions
to our reactions to their reactions.

00;25;47;27 - 00;25;50;11
Give, take it, Give us your takes.

00;25;50;11 - 00;25;51;05
It takes a lot to take.

00;25;51;05 - 00;25;56;04
Bo Burnham level
reaction to your reaction.

00;25;56;06 - 00;25;56;18
If you haven't

00;25;56;18 - 00;25;59;25
seen it, you should watch his reaction
video.

00;25;59;25 - 00;26;01;10
It's great.

00;26;01;10 - 00;26;05;12
So this is a side thing we can kind of

00;26;05;14 - 00;26;10;21
I listen to Bo Burnham when I work out. HE

00;26;10;24 - 00;26;11;10
Yeah. Yeah.

00;26;11;10 - 00;26;13;08
Great way to work out. Yeah.

00;26;13;08 - 00;26;14;09
That's a choice.

00;26;14;09 - 00;26;17;23
That is a choice. I love. I love his work.

00;26;17;26 - 00;26;18;14
Oh yeah.

00;26;18;14 - 00;26;21;14
So, but yeah, that's,
that's a choice of the two.

00;26;21;14 - 00;26;24;01
Okay,
so stay tuned for all the excitement.

00;26;24;01 - 00;26;26;12
Of, of what we have teasing.

00;26;26;12 - 00;26;27;14
Yeah. Thank you for listening.

00;26;27;14 - 00;26;32;04
And we will see you next time. See,

00;26;32;06 - 00;26;35;12
this episode was brought to you
by EA Media.

00;26;35;14 - 00;26;37;02
Our producer is Jackson Foote.

00;26;37;02 - 00;26;40;07
Our music was created by Hidden
and licensed from Premium BET.com

00;26;40;12 - 00;26;42;28
and until next time. Stay honest.

00;26;42;28 - 00;26;44;24
Stay creative. Stay open.

00;26;44;24 - 00;26;45;17
Up in big cities.

00;26;45;17 - 00;26;48;17
We will see you
in the next episode. Thank.