Carole Schweid

Show Notes

Intro: buzzsaws and clean slates, rage, Where the Wild Things Are
Let Me Run This By You: Money
Interview: We talk to Carole Schweid about Juilliard, Phoebe Brand, John Lehne, Michael Brand, Midnight Cowboy, musical comedy performance, open dance calls, starring in the original cast of A Chorus Line, Bob Fosse, Pat Birch, Martha Graham, Minnie's Boys, Mervyn Nelson, playing Fastrada in the first national tour of Pippin, being a lone wolf in theatre, Lewis J. Stadlen, doing West Side Story at Bucks County Playhouse, Shelly Winters, Mary Hinkson, Nellie Forbush in South Pacific, playing Tzeitel in Fiddler on the Roof, Peppermint Lounge, Nick Dante, Michael Bennett, Marvin Hamlisch, Public Theater, Gerry Schoenfeld, The Shubert, the wish for a job vs. the real experience of working, Theda Bara & The Frontier Rabbi, Agnes de Mille, Play With Your Food, Staged Reading Magic, Albert Hague.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,

2 (16s):
We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense

1 (20s):
If at all we survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? As more space is actually a huge thing.

2 (36s):
Yeah. I have to apologize for the sound of buzz saws. What is going to be going the whole time I'm talking, doing well, you

1 (50s):
Took some trees down, right.

2 (53s):
You know, that's how it started. Yeah. It started with actually, you know, it all was a surprise to me, basically one we've been talking about taking down all the trees in the front of our house. And one day Aaron said, they're coming tomorrow to take down the trees. And I'm like, how much did that cost? Because you know, taking down trees is usually really expensive. And so he says, well, he's going to do everything in the front for whatever. It was $5,000.

1 (1m 22s):
Yeah. She was pretty good for more than one tree. Cause one tree we had removed was $5,000 at my mom's.

2 (1m 28s):
Well, and it's not like they have to extract the whole tree. It's just, you know, just chopping it down. Like it's not, I don't know if it's different when they have to take out the, yeah,

1 (1m 38s):
I think it is when they have to take the stump out the roots and all that.

2 (1m 43s):
So that was fine. Although I did think to myself, Hmm. We have $5,000 to spend and this is what we're spending it on.

1 (1m 54s):
I've been there. Oh, I've been there

2 (1m 56s):
So the morning, but I'm letting it go. And so the morning comes and he tells me to go outside so we can talk about the trees and, and, and I, anyway, we, we designate some trees and they're all in the lower part of the front of our house.

1 (2m 10s):
Yes. You, and by the way, for people that don't know, like you have a lot of land for, for, for, for not being in the super super country, you have a lot of courage. I mean, you got a lot of trees.

2 (2m 21s):
Well, yeah, we have an acre and it's a lot of trees and it's a lot of junk trees. What they call junk trees. Because the idea here is once upon a time, when everybody got their heat from wood, you had to have fast growing trees. So it's these skinny trees. Yeah. Anyway, so I thought we were sort of on the same page about what we were going down. This is where I'm getting with this. And I had a couple of meetings yesterday and I was hearing the sound pretty close, but it wasn't until I looked outside that I saw, they took everything out.

2 (3m 1s):
The, every living thing out in the, in the front, in front of our house, including the only tree I was really attached to was I have a beautiful lilac tree.

1 (3m 14s):
Okay. Oh shit. And everything out.

2 (3m 21s):
What's that? Why they

1 (3m 22s):
Take everything out? Is that the plant? I think,

2 (3m 25s):
I think what happened was for the first couple of days, the boss was here. And then I think yesterday, the boss was like, you guys just go and finish up. And I don't know that anyway, you know what, I'm just choosing it to be, I'm choosing to look at it like, okay, well we're getting to start over and it can be exactly how we want it to be. So yeah,

1 (3m 45s):
That is a great attitude because there's nothing you can do you really do about it? Absolutely. Zero. You can do about threes coming out.

2 (3m 53s):
The only bummer is that it sounds like buzz saws all day at my house and at my neighbor's house, I'm sure they're annoyed with us too. Well,

1 (4m 2s):
What are you going to put? It is. Okay. So, so, okay. The good, that's the sort of wonky news, but what the good news is, what are you going to put in? Like, is there going to be a whole new,

2 (4m 12s):
I think it's just going to GRA, I mean, I think it's just going to be grass, which is fine. I mean, my thing was actually, it does a little bit of a metaphor because when we first moved here, we loved how quiet and private and everything is. And part of why everything feels very private at our house is there's trees and bushes blocking our view of anything. I mean, all we can see is trees and bushes when we're laying on the front, which for a while seemed cozy. And then it started to seem like annoying that we could never see. And actually there's kind of a really beautiful view of the mountains behind us. So our mountains Hills.

1 (4m 51s):
Yeah. But I mean, small mountains, like small

2 (4m 53s):
Mountains. Yeah. So I realized that it does coincide with our psychological spelunking and trying to just be like more open about everything. Like totally. You know what I mean? Like this is just be open to people seeing our house. This is open to seeing out and let's have, and actually my kids were kind of like, oh, but it's just also open and we don't have any privacy. And I'm like, yeah, well you have your room and bathroom. I mean, there's, there's places to go if you don't want people to, to see you, but let's just be open.

1 (5m 31s):
There's like a whole, yeah. It's a great metaphor for being visible. Like I am all about lately. I have found a lot of comfort and refuge in the truth of the matter, even if it's not pretty, even if I don't actually like it. So like getting the facts of the matter and also sharing the, of the matter without a judgment. So I appreciate this, like wanting to be seen and then letting go of what people make of that, whether your house is this way or that way, or the neighbors think this or that, I'm also the, I I'm all about it.

1 (6m 15s):
I'm like, you know, this is, there's something about transparency. That's very comforting for me. It's also scary because people don't like it when they can see, or they can say whatever they want, but the hiding, I think I'm pretty convinced hiding from myself and from others leads to trouble.

2 (6m 37s):
It leads to trouble. And any time you're having to kind of keep track of what you're, you know, being open about and what you're not, and what you've said, you know, it just it's like it's T it's listen. If I only have a certain amount of real estate in my mind, I really don't want to allocate any of it too. Right. Hiding something and trying to remember. Right.

1 (7m 1s):
And it's interesting, the more that we do this podcast, the more I see that, like, you know what I thought gene, I thought when we're dead, this podcast is going to remain. And then our children's children's children. I mean, I don't have kids, but my nieces and nephew and your children's children's children will have a record of this. And, and I'd rather it be a record of the truth, the truth and transparency, then some show about pretending. So I think it's going to be good for them to be able to look back and be like, for me, it's like the, my crazy aunt, like, what was she doing? And what did she think? And, and, oh my God, it's a record of the times too.

1 (7m 43s):
Yeah.

2 (7m 43s):
I think about that kind of a lot. And I think about, of course I say all this and my kids are probably like going to be, have no interests unless the, until they get to a certain age, I mean, I'll put it to you this way. If I could listen to a podcast of my mother in her, you know, in the time that I don't really the time of life, certainly before I was born, but in my life where I still didn't see her as a person until, you know, I'd love to just things like what her voice sounded like then, and that kind of thing. I mean, it's interesting.

1 (8m 16s):
I have nothing of my mom, like we have a very few, it was interesting because we didn't, you know, we, there was not a lot of video of my mother and today's actually the 10th anniversary of her passing.

2 (8m 28s):
Oh, wow. Wow. That's hard.

1 (8m 31s):
It is hard. You know, it is hard. And I'm working through, I started therapy with a new therapist, like a regular LCSW lady. Who's not because my last guy was an Orthodox Jewish man who wanted me to have children. Like it was a whole new, I just got involved in all the Shannon Diego's of like weirdness. I attracted that weirdest and whatever. So this lady is like a legit, you know, therapist. And they only bummer is, and I totally understand she's on zoom, but like, I I'm so sick of like, I would love to be in a room with a therapist, but I get it. She's in, she's an older lady, which is also great. I was so sick of having like 28 year old therapists.

1 (9m 13s):
Yeah,

2 (9m 13s):
Yeah, yeah. For sure.

1 (9m 16s):
I don't even seem right. Unless clients are like, you know, fit seven to 17. So anyway, so, but all this to say about my mom, I was thinking about it and I think what's harder than right. My mom's death right now is that there's I just, you know, and this is something I wanted to bring up with you is just like, I have a lot of rage that's coming up lately about my childhood and we weren't allowed to feel rage. And my mom was the only one allowed to feel rage. And so this rage mixed with perimenopause slash menopause. I mean, like I still get a period, but like, it's, it's a matter of time before that's over.

1 (9m 58s):
So, but the rage, so I guess, right. I get, you know, people like to talk about rage as some or anger as something we need to process and we need to do this and that, but the truth of the matter is since we're being transparent, like rage can be really scary. Like sometimes the rage, I feel, it's not like I'm going to do anything. Why wonky? I hope, but it's more like a, I don't know what to do with it. That is my, and I was talking in therapy about that. Like, I'm not actually sure. Practically when the feelings come up, what to do with rage. And I feel like it speaks to in our culture of like, we're all about now, this sort of like, we talk about this fake positivity and shit like that.

1 (10m 41s):
And also like embracing all your feelings, but there's not really practical things that we learn what to do when you feel like you're going to take your laptop and literally take it and throw it across the room and then go to jail. Like you, you. So I have to like look up things on the internet with literally like what to do with my rage.

2 (11m 1s):
I think that's why that's part of my attraction to reality. Television shows is a, is a performance of rage. That's that I wouldn't do just because I don't think I could tolerate the consequences. I mean, an upwards interpretation is, oh, it's not my value, but it's really just like, I don't think I can manage the content of the consequences. I'm totally at having all these blown up

1 (11m 30s):
And people mad at me and legal consequences. I can't,

2 (11m 35s):
It's something very gratifying about watching people just give in to all of their rage impulses and it's yeah. I, it it's, it may be particularly true for women, but I think it's really just true for everybody that there's very few rage outlets, although I guess actually maybe sports. Well, when it turns, when it turns sideways, then that's also not acceptable.

1 (12m 3s):
Yeah. I mean, and maybe that's why I love all this true crime is like, these people act out their rage, but like lately to be honest, the true crime hasn't been doing it for me. It's interesting. That is interesting. Yeah. It's sort of like, well, I've watched so much of it that like now I'm watching stuff in different languages, true crime. And I'll start again. No, no, just stories. I haven't all been the only stories that I haven't heard really, really are the ones from other countries now. So I'm watching like, like true crime in new, in Delhi.

2 (12m 42s):
Do you need your fix? I actually was listening to some podcasts that I listened to. There's always an ad and it's exactly about this. It's like, we love true crime, but we've heard every story we know about every grisly murder, you know, detail. And it was touting itself as a podcast of, for next time I listened to it. I'll note the name of it so I can share it with you. You know, about this crimes. You haven't heard about

1 (13m 9s):
T the thing is a lot of them now, because I'm becoming more of a kind of sewer. Like a lot of it is just shittily made. So like the, the they're subtitled and dubbed in India, like India. So you've got like the, the they're speaking another language and then they're and if they don't match, so then I'm like, well, who's right. Like, is it the dubbing that's right. Or the subtitles that are right. And, and actually the words matter because I'm a writer. So it was like one anyway, it's poorly done is what I'm saying in my mind. And so it sort of scraped scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's like deli 9 1 1. I swear to God. That's what it, and, and it's, and also it's, it's horrifying because the, you know, the legal systems everywhere fucked, but India has quite a system.

2 (13m 57s):
I think that to the rage, like, tell me more about what comes up for you with rage and where you,

1 (14m 6s):
Yeah. Okay. So some of it is physiological, like where I feel literally like, and I think this is what my doctor's talking about. The menopause symptoms. I literally feel like a gnashing, my teeth. Like, I feel a tenseness in my jaw. Like, that's literally that. And she's like, that could also be your heart medication. So talk to your heart doctor. I mean, we're checking out all the things, but like, but it's tension. That's what it really feels like in my body is like tight tension where I feel earth like that. If I had to put a sound effect to it, it's like, ah, so I, I feel that is the first symptom of my rage. And then I feel like, and, and I say out loud, sometimes I hate my life.

1 (14m 54s):
That's what I say. And that is something I have never allowed myself to say before. Like I, I think unconsciously, I always told myself, like, you just, you have to be grateful and you know, those are the messages we receive, but sometimes life just fucking sucks. And sometimes my life, I just, I just can't stand. And, and in moments, you know, I never loved myself. So it's mostly a physical symptom followed by this is intolerable, what someone is doing. Sometimes my dog or my husband, but even, even if the coworking space, you know, like the lady was talking too loud and I was like, oh my God, this is intolerable.

1 (15m 34s):
She has to shut up. So agitation, that's what it is. And, and then it passes when I, if I, if I can say, oh my gosh, I am so fricking in Rouge right now. Then it passes.

2 (15m 52s):
Yeah. Well, it, it kind of sounds like from, from you and probably for most people, the only real option is to turn it in on yourself, you know, like you're not going to put it elsewhere. So you've, you know, you have, which is, so I guess maybe it's okay if you turn it on yourself, if you're doing, if you're working, if you're doing it with acceptance, which is the thing I'm gathering from you, as opposed to stewing and festering. And

1 (16m 21s):
I mean, it becomes, it's interesting. Yes, it is. So it's like, so red, hot, and so sudden, almost that the only thing I can do is say, okay, this is actually happening. Like, I can't pretend this isn't happening. I, it I'm like physically clenching my fists. And then I, yeah, there is a level of acceptance. I don't get panicked anymore. Now that I, that something is wrong. I just say, oh, this is rage. I name it. I'm like, I feel enraged and white, hot rage, and then it, and then it, and then I say, that's what this is.

1 (17m 3s):
I don't know why. I don't know where it's coming from. Right. In this moment. It's not proportionate to the lady, like literally talking on the phone at my coworking space that she's not shouting. So it's not that. And I don't want to miss that. I'm not like I can't fool myself to think that it's really, that lady's problem. That I feel like throwing my laptop at her head. And then, and then it passes. But, but, but it is, it is more and more. And, and I think a lot of it, not a lot of it, but you know, my doctor really does think that it's, it's hormonal. A lot of it just doesn't help the matter. I mean, it's not like, oh, great. It's hormonal. Everything's fine. But it, it does help to make me feel a little less bonkers.

2 (17m 45s):
Maybe you should have like a, a whole rage. Like what, like a rate. Well, first I was thinking you should have a range outfit. Like, oh, for me, if I, I noticed I pee in the winter anyway, I pick like my meanest boots and my leather jacket. When I'm feeling, you know, maybe say maybe kind of a rage outfit, when did Pierce?

1 (18m 9s):
No, I, I scratched myself in my sleep. Oh no, it's okay. It happens all the time. I do it in my sleep. It's a thing that it's like a little skin tag that I need to get removed. It's

2 (18m 23s):
So you could have a rage outfit and then you could have a rage playlist, And then you might even have like rage props. I'm just trying to think about a way that your ma you, you could write because if, if how you process something is artistically creatively, then maybe you needed a creative outlet that's specifically for, for race.

1 (18m 48s):
Yeah. And you know, the, I, I love that. And now I'm thinking about like, as a kid, we, because we, anger was so off limits to us. I used to violently chew gum. Like I would chew on the gum. That was a way, and my mom did the same thing, even though she also got her rage out, but it was like, you know, when people violently chew on their gum, like that was a way I could get my aggression out. That's so sad that that's like the only way.

2 (19m 16s):
Well, I mean, you find it wherever you can find me. It's like water looking for whatever that expression is, right? Yeah. Huh. Well, I have to get more in touch with my rage because I I'm told that I seem angry a lot.

1 (19m 33s):
You do.

2 (19m 35s):
I, I do get told that, but, but that sucks for me because I feel like I'm not expressing my anger and I'm, but I'm not. So I'm not, and I'm being seen as angry at certain times. So that means I didn't even get the benefit of like letting out the anger that somebody is.

1 (19m 56s):
Right. You didn't even get to act out the anger. It's like, yeah. So for me, miles tells me that all the time, like, he's like, you seem really in couples therapy. Also, I have to admit yesterday was a big day. We had couples therapy on zoom. Then I had individual therapy. And in between I had all kinds of like, just stuff happening. So, but yeah, I'm told I a miles is like, you seem so angry and he's not wrong. And, and we take it out on the people that we live in a two by four apartment with. So I also feel like this office space is helping with that, but yeah, I dunno, I'm going to have to keep exploring my, my rage and that's what it is.

1 (20m 37s):
And also it is like, I am the character in where the wild things are that kid, that is what I feel like. And it feels it's like the perfect cause he wants to gnash his teeth and, and he does, and a thrash, thrash, thrashing mash, or the words <inaudible>

2 (21m 6s):
Let me run this by you that I wanted to do when we're going to talk to Molly that we didn't get to do. And it was based on made, you know, and just about money and, and wondering like what your relationship is right now with money. And also, but when were you at your lowest with money? What do you remember as being your lowest moment? Sure, sure. With money with money.

1 (21m 40s):
Okay. I have moments of what first comes to mind was when right. I was at DePaul. So it's an apropos in college and there was obviously a sense. I had a sense of lack, always, even though based on whatever, but it was phone. Somehow my accounts were always negative, right? Like, and I would call the number, the banking number, incessantly to check, and it would always be negative. So I have this panic thoughts about that. Like being a time of like, and that's not the only time that happened like that.

1 (22m 23s):
Where, what is the feeling? The feeling was that, and this was in college where it started to happen, where I felt like there's never enough. No, one's going to help me. I'm irresponsible with money. Was the message I told myself and I probably was, I was in college, but I can't handle money. And literally that, that panic was also, I mean, it was true. I had no money, but my parents would have backed me, probably helped me out, but I was too scared to ask for help. So that's like, that's when, when you asked that question, that's where I go.

1 (23m 4s):
But, but that's also a college kind of me. So like in terms of an adult, me, that's a really great, great question. My lowest, I don't know. What about you?

2 (23m 22s):
Well, I've got a lot of Loma Loehmann's moments with money when I was in high school. The thing was, I lost my wallet all the time.

1 (23m 35s):
Oh, I remember this. I remember you talking about,

2 (23m 38s):
Yeah, that'd be still lose stuff all the time. That actually started at a young age with, you know, my mom would, she, my mom was really into jewelry and she would buy me destroyed. And there's nothing wrong with the fact that she brought me jewelry, but I lost it. You know, she buy me nice gold jewelry

1 (23m 59s):
Because she likes nice things. That's right. Yeah.

2 (24m 4s):
In college it was pretty bad. And the first time it was pretty bad. I had to move back in with my mom because I couldn't afford rent. And then the second time I just, I re I really, if I had more bravery, I probably would have signed up to be one of those girls in the back of the Chicago reader. Like, I, I, I just figured what ha how literally, how else? Because I had a job, but I only worked however much I could work given the fact that we were in rehearsals and like busy all day, so I never could make enough money. And then I just, I think I always have had a dysfunctional relationship with money.

1 (24m 51s):
Wait a minute, but I have to interrupt. Why, why didn't our parents fucking help us? Okay. Look, I know I sound like a spoiled asshole brat, but like, when I think of the anxiety that we were going through and I know your mom did, so I'm not going to talk shit about your mom or anything, but I'm just saying like, why did we feel so alone in this when we were so young, this is not right.

2 (25m 11s):
Yeah. Well, my mom did help me out as much as she possibly could, but I think part of it too, my dad certainly didn't think it was that. I mean, when my mom was 18 and my dad was 19, they bought a house and had a baby. So I think part of it is, has been like, what's the matter with you? Cause I didn't go to college, you know, that's the other thing. So, so then when I, then I had a period for like 10 years where I always had three jobs, me two, what

1 (25m 46s):
Did you have enough then? I mean like, could you make rapid enough?

2 (25m 49s):
I had enough then yeah, I had enough then. But then when Aaron decided he wants to go to medical school, it was really on me to, to bring in the income. I mean, his parents always gave him money. They helped, it was a lot more. I mean, and actually it's why he became a therapist because I thought, well, we're going to be living with no income because he's going to be a student. Right. So I better giddy up and get a job. So the whole time I was in social work school, I was bartending. I remember that. And then I went quickly into private practice so that I could make money.

2 (26m 29s):
And it turned out to be, it turned out to backfire on me. Tell

1 (26m 35s):
Me, tell me, tell me more.

2 (26m 37s):
It backfired in two ways. Number one, I was, I shouldn't have been operating a private practice without my LCSW. I had my MSW and I was working at the time in a psych hospital. And all of the psychiatrist said, you should start your private practice. You should start your private practice. And I remember saying at the beginning, I don't know if I'm allowed to oh yes, yes. You definitely can. I know tons of MSWs into plenty of people and it's true. I don't know if it's still true now in New York, but at that time you could walk around and see plenty of nameplates for offices where somebody in private practice and that just have an MSW.

2 (27m 18s):
They just had to have a supervisor

1 (27m 19s):
Or something.

2 (27m 22s):
I don't know. Okay. I dunno. Right. So that ended up coming to haunt me when a disgruntled patient. And they're all disgruntled in some way, a family who actually had been swindled by a con artist, like they, they were a blue blood, rich ass family and they got swindled by a con artist. And so they were talking about rage. They had a lot of rage about that. When this guy who was paying for his daughter's treatment, didn't think it was going where, you know, he wanted it to right.

2 (28m 4s):
He started pushing back about the fee and then he was submitting to his insurance company and they were not reimbursing because I didn't have the LCSW. So then he reported me to the New York state office of professional discipline or

1 (28m 21s):
Whatever yeah.

2 (28m 21s):
Regulation or whatever. Yeah. And I ha I had to go through a whole thing. I had to have a lawyer and I had to go, yeah, yeah. It was a nightmare. It was a complete and total nightmare. And I, and I said nothing, but like, yeah, I did that. I did do that. And I did it because I needed to make the money. I mean, in some ways I don't regret it because I did it worked for the time that it worked. And then by the time it stopped working, I was ready to leave private practice anyway. Oh my God. Yeah. But then it also backfired because we were taking in this money, which we desperately needed living in New York city with two kids.

2 (29m 3s):
And, and we were, we were spending it all and not hold withholding any for taxes. So then that started, that started, that started almost 10 year saga of just, I mean, I, it's embarrassing to even say how much money we've paid in just in fees, compounded fees. Nope. I'm sure. In the last 10 years we've given the government a million dollars.

1 (29m 29s):
That sounds, that sounds about right. And you know, I think the thing with money too, is the amount of forgiveness I've need to muster up for the financial decisions that I have made. So one of them that I'm super embarrassed about is that, and I, and I hear you when it's like, yeah, I, it, it's embarrassing. I, I, when I did my solo show, I inherited the year that my mom died. My great aunt also died, who I very barely knew. And I inherited like, like a lot of money. Well, to me, a lot, like 50 grand from her, and I spent 15,000 on a publicist for my solo show that did nothing.

1 (30m 14s):
So I was swindled. Oh,

2 (30m 17s):
I'm so sorry to hear that. That really did nothing.

1 (30m 22s):
I could have done it all on my own. I could have done it all on my own, on drugs, in a coma. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like, come on. So I have done made some questionable decisions. I did the best we did the best we could with, with the information that we all had at the time. I would never make that decision. I wouldn't, I will never make that mistake again. So yeah. Money is very, very, obviously this is so like kind of obvious to say, but it is, it is. So it is a way in which we really, really use it to either prize or shame ourselves. Right. And, and, and w I do it either way, like I do it.

1 (31m 2s):
Oh, I'm so fancy. I inherited this dough. And then I also do it. It's that thing that they talk about in program, which is like, you're the worm, but you're the best worm for the festival, special worms. And like, you're not a worker among workers. I'm just like the best idiot out there. It's like,

2 (31m 18s):
Dude. Yeah. And you're making me realize that money might be the only very quantifiable way of understanding your psychology list. The money is like, understanding your psychology through math. It's going okay. If you're a person like me who gets offered a credit card at age 20 totally signs up and, and immediately maxes it out at whatever, to get 27% interest rate. So whatever little thousand dollars of clothes I got, I probably paid $10 for it. And for the longest time. So, so that's me being afraid of the truth of my financial situation, being unwilling to sacrifice, having, you know, whatever, cute clothes being about the immediate gratification of it all and not thinking longterm.

2 (32m 15s):
Yeah.

1 (32m 16s):
Okay. Well, not asking for help either. Like, like, I don't know who I'd asked, but someone had to know more than me. I didn't ask my parents. They didn't really know what was happening at, or that just was their generation of like, not teaching us about money. It was sort of like, good luck. Get it together. We got it together. You get it together. Okay. Fine. But like unwillingness and fear to ask, to be taught something about money. Like, I didn't know, Jack shit about credit or interest Jack shit.

2 (32m 46s):
Yeah. And I recently realized that I'm basically redoing that with my kids, because we supposedly have this allowance. Only one of my kids ever remembers to ask for it because you know, only one of my kids is very, you know, very interested in money, but like, in a way I can understand why the others don't because it's like, well, anytime they want something, I pay for it. I never say sometimes I'll say recently, I've gotten better about saying, if we're going to go back to school shopping I'll especially if the oldest one, I'll say, this is your budget. If you, if you spend it all on one pair of sneakers, then I hope you're okay with your sweat pants that don't fit and wear them everyday for the rest of the school year.

2 (33m 31s):
Right. But it's, we've, we've just been extremely inconsistent in tying, like, for example, chores to your allowance,

1 (33m 42s):
It's fucking miserable and hard. And I have trouble doing that for myself. I wouldn't be able to do that for my children. If I had children, I can't not give the dog people food. What are you talking about? How am I going to bring it? Doesn't shock me. We didn't learn the skills and I'm not blaming. I mean, I'm blaming, of course my parents, but I'm also just saying, it's just the facts. If we're going to be that in the truth, like, I didn't learn, I didn't educate myself and nobody educated me. So I'm really learning through trial and error. Mostly error, how to be okay with money. And it is you're right. Like finances, romance, and finance teach us the most about our psychology.

2 (34m 24s):
Yeah. Yeah. Romance finance. I love that. <inaudible>

1 (34m 28s):
I think that my boss at Lutheran social services to say all the time, finance and romance, romance, and finance, that's what all these addictions are about is that's how you see them. I'm like, she's right. I mean, she was, I liked her. She was bonkers, but I liked her. She said some good. She, she also is famous for saying, and she didn't say it, but she would always quote, the, no one gets out of here alive. You know, none of us getting out of here life, we might as well start

2 (34m 54s):
<inaudible>. Well, today on the podcast, we were talking to Carol Schweid and original cast member of the original production of a chorus line on Broadway. She's got great stories to tell she's a fascinating person. And I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation with Carol Schweid. Exactly. Carol shrine. Congratulations. You survived theater school. I did. You did.

2 (35m 34s):
And where did you go to theater school. Okay. First of all,

3 (35m 38s):
Let me just take my coffee, my extra coffee off of the stove and put it on my table. Cause it's gonna burn because we don't want that.

4 (35m 51s):
Okay. You're I am looking for a cop. If you have one, you know, this is ridiculous.

3 (36m 2s):
Hi there. Hi. This is a riot that you talk about surviving theater school. I think it's great. Okay. So this is working, right? You can hear me. Yeah, no, totally. A hundred percent. So this is my, I started college at Boston university. I was an acting major, which I loved. I really did, but I, what I loved more than anything was I loved the history of the theater. We had a great professor who told the tales of the gladiators and the, you know, the gladiators on the island and the fighting, and then the island, the survivors, and then the island would slowly sink into the water.

3 (36m 45s):
What is this? What did I miss? It was the early history of the theater. It was starting on the church steps. It was, you know, the second, whatever all of that history was, I found it really interesting. I also loved the station shop crew stuff. I liked learning about lighting. I was terrible at it. I, you know, I would fall off ladder, but I, I, I enjoyed the backstage stuff as much as I enjoy. I just, I liked it. I, we did the rose tattoo and my, and my first job was to take care of the goat. I was on the prop crew.

3 (37m 28s):
I took care of the goat. Was it a stuffed goat? No, it was a real goat. Wow. What can I tell you? The rose tattoo. There's a goat in the play. I didn't realize you could have livestock and colleges, college, whatever it was. I look like I have jaundice with is that something's wrong with the light jump I sent you stop your, where is the microphone part of your, do you want me to hold it up better? Because when you move, it hits your shirt and it makes like a scratching, right? That's right. I'll do it this way. I won't move around. When you look tan, you look, you don't like jaundice at all. Okay. Well then that's all right. Good. Thanks. Were the goat handlers.

3 (38m 8s):
Good to talk to you. I mean, that was, and I didn't mind, I didn't mind being an usher. All of those things, you know, I remember somebody sitting us down and saying, you're you are the first person. The audience we'll meet tonight as an usher. I took all of the stuff I did, but the acting business was very confusing to me. I didn't quite know. I had done a lot of theater and dancing and been in the shows and stuff, but I really, I was a little more of a dancer than an actor. I'd taken class in the city. I'd followed some cute guy from summer camp to his acting class. But half the time, I honestly didn't understand a word.

3 (38m 48s):
Anybody said, I just, nobody does. I really didn't get it so much at the time I loved it, but I didn't always get it. And for some reason, and I have no idea where this, why this happened. I had a boyfriend in summer stock whose mother worked at Barnard and her best friend was a woman named Martha Hill. Martha Hill ran the dance department at a school called Julliard. Nope. I had no idea. Cool. Just a little, nothing school. This is back in the day. It's a long time ago. It was just a plain old school. It wasn't like a school, you know, where you bow down. And I really was a very good dancer and always loved dancing.

3 (39m 33s):
You know, I've been dancing since I'm like a kid, a little five or six or whatever. So I was a little disenchanted with my successes at Boston U even though I had friends, I was having a great time. I mean, Boston in the late sixties was amazingly fun, but I felt like I wasn't getting it. I mean, it wasn't a school that was cutting people. Thank God, because that would have been torture. I don't know how anybody survives that, but I audition for this dance department in this school called Juilliard and got in and then told my parents that I was going to change colleges. I remember making up a dance in the basement of my dorm in Boston.

3 (40m 17s):
Cause you had a sort of take class and then you had to show something that you should have made up. And somebody else from college was leaving school to come to New York to be a singer. So we decided we were going to be roommates. And then we had a summer stock. Somebody at BU started some summer theaters. So I had a job or two, I think I had some friends from there. So I ended up moving, changing colleges and going to Juilliard. And I spent three years there. I was a modern dancer major. So we had the Limone company, including Jose Lamone wow teachers and the Graham company.

3 (40m 59s):
I mean, Martha, Martha Graham did not teach, but her company did as a winter and Helen, I was Helen McGee. One of the, they were maniacs. I mean, they're, they're like gods and goddesses and their whole life is about dance. And I was one of those demonstrators for her eight o'clock beginning class, my third year of school. I mean, I, it was all about technique. We had amazing ballet teachers. We had Fiorella Keane who, I mean, Anthony tutor taught class there and he was Anthony. I mean, so I got a out of being at that school that I have never lost. I mean, I can, I'm making up the answers for high school kids now really.

3 (41m 42s):
I'm just finishing up a production of grease, which is really kind of boring, but whatever I liked Greece, tell me more. Yeah. It's okay. If you hear it enough, you really get sick of it. Well, that's true. Yeah. I mean high school kids doing high school kids is like, Jesus, God, you just want to slit your throat. The moodiness when it comes to the girls. I mean, I love them. I really love them. I love the guys because puppies, they fall all over each other and they're fabulous, but that's a lie anyway. So I did something that I don't know why I did it and how it worked out. That way I left. I had a very best friend in college that was, you know, and I came to New York and made, made and shared an apartment with this slightly crazy woman.

3 (42m 32s):
And a year later I got myself a studio apartment on west end avenue and 71st street. And my mom co-signed the lease. And I spent three years dancing, honestly dancing almost every day. I wanted to take sights singing, but they wouldn't let me because I was in the dance department. And I didn't know, you could advocate for that. Sure. I didn't know. You could take classes at Columbia. I mean, who had time anyway, but was it a three-year program? It was a four year program, but I had taken a music class at BU that was like music appreciation one. Yeah. And for whatever reason, they gave me credit for that.

3 (43m 14s):
So I had a full year credit. Yep. Three years of Juilliard where I really worked my tail off. What's weird about it is that I am, you know, just a plain old Jewish girl from New Jersey, you know, a middle-class Jewish girlfriend. And to, to think that I could have a profession where people don't talk and don't eat, which is what the answers do is a riot to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's an absolute riot because you know, I mean, that should be basically the manual for dancers. Don't talk, don't eat, but I always knew that I was heading to Broadway. I really have always wanted to do that.

3 (43m 55s):
And I, and, and w was not really ever in question that I would, I somehow assumed if I worked hard and figured it out enough, I would find my way to working on Broadway. And I, and I made the right choice in the sense of switching colleges. Because in the seventies, if you look at your list of Broadway shows, all the directors were choreographers. They were all dancers, all of them Fauci, Michael Bennett champion, all of them. So I started working when I got out of school, you know, it was, and I had already done a couple of summers of summer stock and I did a summer Bushkill pencil, you know, these ridiculous, stupid theaters all over, but it was a blast.

3 (44m 36s):
It was fun. Where, what was your first job out of school? I was still, I was in school and it was the Mount Suttington Playhouse, which was like a tin shell in Connecticut. And I think it was still in college. Cause two guys from school had opened this theater at the skiing place, but it wasn't skiing. Then it was a sh it was like a tin shell. So couldn't really do a show when it was raining very well. And I believe it was stopped the world. I want to get off and I can still remember the Alto harmony to some of the songs. So you okay. Wait, so you don't consider, you didn't consider yourself a, an actor or did you?

3 (45m 20s):
Well, I did, but I think what happened was I had to audition for something. It'd be you like, they had grad programs and it wasn't that I was unsuccessful there, but somebody came and I didn't get cast. I didn't get hired. And I didn't understand, you know, like they give you all these acting exercises. We do sense memory. Well, I didn't know they were exercises. I didn't, they were they're like plea aids. Right. They're like learning things. I took this all very seriously. I would stand in a room and try to feel it was like that song from chorus line, you know, try to feel the emotion, feel the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

3 (46m 5s):
I did all of that. I didn't really understand the simple, what am I want here? And what's in my way of trying to get it. Yeah. It took me so long to find teachers that I really could understand and make me a better actor. So when did you find them? When did you start to find them? Oh, that's interesting. Well, I found a couple of good teachers in New York. I mean, honestly there was a woman named Mary Tarsa who had been in the group theater and an older lady. I mean, it's a long time ago anyway, you know, but I remember sitting in her class and she would talk about using imagery and th and I started to sort of understand a little bit, which is amazing to me because after I moved to Westport and I met, do you know the name Phoebe brand?

3 (46m 58s):
Yeah. Phoebe brand was in our theater workshop. Oh, taught a class. She was already up in her eighties and she taught a class, a Shakespeare class on Sunday mornings. And all of a sudden these things that I didn't understand from decades before. Hmm. It sort of pulled it all together. But for me, I went, I was in California after I got married and moved to LA for a couple of years, found a teacher named John LAN and Lee H N E and two years in his class. I started to really understand how to do it. And then when I came back to New York, he sent me to Michael Howard and Michael Howard, Michael Howard was a great teacher for me.

3 (47m 44s):
He's still a great, I don't know if he's still around if he's teaching or not, but he was a wonderful teacher. And I started to understand how to do it. Was Len the, did he teach the method or what was yes, he was, he was an actor studio teacher. And I started to understand about being present on the stage and being able to deal with people. All of it, it just changed dramatically. I mean, I started to understand what this was about and seeing other good actors and chipping away at it and finding people to rehearse with. And

1 (48m 22s):
You, you, from what I know, and what I'm gathering is that once you graduated Juilliard, you were cast in New York.

3 (48m 30s):
Well, you know, I did get my very, my V I I've. I mean, I, I remember going to see midnight cowboy, which was about the same time as I got out of college. And I remember going into a terrible panic of, oh my God. I mean, really scared about all of it. And I, I went, I joined a class that a friend of mine, somebody told me about this class, you know, I always follow somebody to a class. I'm always, I have good friends. And I, somebody says, oh, I love this guy come to class and I'd show up.

3 (49m 12s):
And this was a musical comedy singing class, kind of where there were writers in the class and actors in the class. And the writers in the class would work on a musical that they didn't have permission for. It wasn't like they were, we were doing this for money or for, for future. So my friend who I became friends with wrote her musical version of barefoot in the park and which has never been done, but I remember I was in it and this guy was in it. And we, it was the kind of a class where it was a very warm, funny group, funny group of wacko theater people. And I would go to open calls and I'd usually go to open dance calls because that was a door for me.

3 (49m 59s):
And also I used to have to sneak out of Jew, not sneak necessarily, but essentially sneak out to take my singing lessons. And I took singing lessons every, you know, every week for years, for three years, I would, you know, and I, and I was not really, I don't think a very good singer, but I became a good singer. I would sneak out of school and go to an acting class. I don't even know when I started that, but I know that I would find the time to do it and then talk about acting and find a teacher so that when I would audition for a musical and I would get through the dancing. Usually if I got through the first cut, I would make it to the end. I wouldn't always get the job, but if I made it through that first horrible, random cut, you know, where there's 200 people in your dancing across the stage and it's yes, no, yes, no.

3 (50m 47s):
Is it really?

1 (50m 48s):
Because I'm not a dancer. So I never had this. I, when my agents are like, oh, there's an open dance call. I'm like, ah, that's you sent the wrong person, the email. So it's really like that, like in, in chorus line where they say, you know,

3 (51m 1s):
Oh yeah. It's like all that jazz. It's really like that.

2 (51m 6s):
Wait, I have a question. I want to hear the re the rest of that. But I, I just, I've never asked anybody. What's the biggest difference between the people who got cut immediately. I mean, was it training or were there people that, in other words, were there people who were just walking in off the street with no training trying to audition? Yeah,

1 (51m 29s):
No, truly an open call.

3 (51m 31s):
No. And sometimes these were equity calls. Cause I, I, I did get my equity card on a summer. That one summer I worked for a non-union, you know, we were in either Bushkill Pennsylvania or Southern Eaton Connecticut, or I did a couple of those summers. And then the next summer, the choreographer from that show had an equity job. And he hired like three of us from our non-unions summer stock, because we were good enough. And

1 (52m 4s):
So when you went to these open calls, everyone, there was a bad-ass dancer. No one, there was like,

3 (52m 10s):
That's not true. That's not true. There were all different levels of dancers, but it was also a look await, you know, it was always, I was always like seven pounds overweight. It was like, the torture is thing of weight does enough to put anybody over the edge

1 (52m 26s):
That they literally

3 (52m 27s):
Weigh you, Carol. Oh God. No. Oh, but it's so look, and I will tell you there's one. There was one time when I remember auditioning for above Fossey show and there were a lot of people on the stage and we were whatever we were doing. And then at 1.3 Fossey dancers, it was their turn. And these three gals, okay. Their hair was perfect. Their makeup was fabulous. They had a little necklace, they had a black leotards, you know, cut up high, but not out of control. Good tights, no, no runs, nice shoes, nails done.

3 (53m 7s):
And they were fantastic. They were clean. They were technically, and we all sort of went, oh fuck.

1 (53m 16s):
Right.

3 (53m 18s):
Right. And I have friends who became Fossey dancers. I mean, I worked for Bob, but I have friends who did a lot of shows him. And they had that same experience where they saw other people, the way it should be. And then they would go back a month later and get the job because they knew what it took. It was all about knowing what it takes. But the thing about having studied acting and having slowly studied singing is that in the world of musical theater, I was ahead of the game because there's not that much time. So you have to be willing to spend all of your time.

3 (54m 0s):
Right.

1 (54m 1s):
There are some people I'm assuming Carol, that could dance wonderfully, but couldn't do the singing and the acting part. And that's where you were like, that's the triple threat newness of it all is like, you could do

3 (54m 12s):
Well, I could do them better than a lot of people. And I certainly could sing well, and I had, I could sing a short song and I knew that you sing a short song. I knew that you'd probably do an uptempo, you know? And also I tend to be a little angry when I go into an audition. It's like, why do I fuck? Do I have to audition? I better, duh. So I needed to find things that allowed me to be a little angry so I could be myself. And I could also be a little funny if I could figure out how to do that. So all of these things worked in my favor. And then of course, like everybody else in her, a lot of people, pat Birch, who was a choreographer, she had like a gazillion shows running, including Greece on Broadway. And now over here, I don't know if she did grease, but she did over here.

3 (54m 55s):
She did. She was very prolific choreographer. She had been a Martha Graham dancer and she had taught a couple of classes at Julliard. And when it came to my auditioning for her, she needed girls who could dance like boys. She didn't need tall leggy, chorus girls. We were doing the show she was working on, was a show called Minnie's boys. And it was a show about the Marx brothers and the last number of the show. We were all the whole chorus was dressed up like different Marx brothers. And she needed girls who could be low to the ground, who can, you could turn who and I was the right person.

3 (55m 36s):
And I remember being in that class, that wonderful musical theater class with a teacher named Mervin Nelson, who was just a great older guy who kind of worked in the business. I remember I had to go to my callback. I went to my class and the callback was at night. And I remember him walking me to the door, putting his arm around me and saying, go get the job. And if you don't get this one, we'll get you. The next one

1 (56m 4s):
That makes me want to

3 (56m 4s):
Cry. Well, it made me feel like part of the family, cause we all want to be part of that theater family. And so I tend to do that when I'm with an actor, who's going to go get a job or go get, you know, you want to feel like it's possible. Yeah. You feel like you can, you deserve it.

1 (56m 29s):
You said, you mentioned briefly that you worked for Bob

3 (56m 32s):
Fossey. I did.

1 (56m 35s):
Oh my gosh. Did you turn into one of those ladies that looked like a bossy dancer too? Like, did you then show up to those auditions? Like, oh

3 (56m 43s):
No, I don't think I, I couldn't, I didn't, I could not get into a chorus of Bob Fossey, but I did get to play for strata in Pippin in the, in the, in the first national tour. And he, Bob was the, he was the director and I, I knew I was the right person for that job. It was also a funny, kind of lovely circumstances that I was in some off-Broadway an off-Broadway show that had started as an awful off, off of a, that, that Bubba, that moved to an off-Broadway theater. I got some excellent reviews. And I think the day the review came out was the day I had my audition for Bob Fossey.

3 (57m 24s):
So I, and I played it. I had talked to people who knew him. I talked to, you know, I, I knew that I, I don't know, I just, I, I had done some work and I just, I don't know the right person at the right time, somebody, he needed it. That part required a good dancer. Who could, I don't know how I got the part. I just,

1 (57m 57s):
I'm kind of getting the impression that we're talking about being a strong dancer.

3 (58m 0s):
Well, let's strong dancer. And also being able to, being able to talk and sing was really the key. I'm not sure that I certainly, as a young person, I, I didn't do nearly as much comedy as I did when I got a little older, but, and also there were a lot of divisions. You sort of either did musicals or you did straight plays and it was hard to get into an audition even for a straight play. And the truth is I think that a lot of us who thought we were better than we were as you get better, you see when you really, wasn't a very strong actor.

1 (58m 43s):
Right. But there's something about that. What I'm noticing and what you're talking about is like, there's something about the confidence that you had by maybe thinking that you might've been a little better than you were that actually behooves young actors and performers that, you know, cause when Gina and I talked to these people were like, oh my God, they have a healthy ego, which actually helps them to not give up as where I was like, I'm terrible. I'm giving up at the first hour.

3 (59m 9s):
Exactly. Right. Right. And, and it, and it goes back and forth. It's like a CSO one day, you feel like, oh yeah, I'm good at this. I can walk it. I get, I'm like, I'm okay with this. And the next day you just to hide under the bed, I think that's sort of the way it goes. I didn't know that people who worked on Broadway even then all had coaches and teachers and support systems and you know, being kind of a little more of a lone Wolf, which I was, and still fight against in a way I come against that a lot, for whatever reasons, you know, whatever it doesn't work, what to be a lone Wolf.

3 (59m 54s):
Yeah. Yeah. You can't do this alone. You can't do it without a support system. It's just too hard because when I actually had the best opportunity I had, which was being part of a chorus line, it was harder than I thought to just be normal, come up with a good performance every night, you know, it was up and down and loaded and that you lost your voice and had nobody to talk to because you couldn't talk anyway. And we didn't have the internet yet. You know, there was so many, it was so much pressure and so much, and I hadn't really figured out how to create that support system up for myself.

3 (1h 0m 42s):
And it was harder, harder than it needed to be. Did you ultimately find it with the cast? No. Oh, not really where they mean, oh, none of the cast was fine. It wasn't that anybody was mean it's that I didn't take care of myself and I didn't know how I was supposed to take care of my shirt. How old were you when you were cast in a chorus line? 27? Maybe I was, I was young and, but I wasn't that young. I just, but it wasn't that C w it was a strange situation to, I was, I had already had one Broadway show, so I had done, and then I had gone out of town to bucks county Playhouse.

3 (1h 1m 25s):
And did west side story Romeo was your first Broadway show. I'm sorry. It was called Minnie's boys. Oh, that was it. That was my, I did. And it was a show about the Marx brothers. Right. And I don't know if you know who Louis. We would probably do Louis Stadol and Louis J Staglin who works with, he works with Nathan Lane a lot. Oh yeah. Yeah. He's like second bun and he's incredibly talented. He played Groucho. Okay. We were all 25 years old. We were kids. We were right out of college. And the weirdest part of all was that the mother was played by Shelley winters. And this was a musical. What a weird you've really. Okay. So then you went onto chorus line.

3 (1h 2m 6s):
Well then, well then in between that, this is like, you know, then, then I went out of town to bucks county. I love being in bucks county for a year. We did west side story. We did Romeo and Juliet during the week. We do them together, one in the morning, one in the afternoon for high school kids. And then on the weekends, we do one of the, and I was the only person in the cast who liked dancing at 10 o'clock in the morning. You know, I didn't mind doing west side at 10 in the morning. I'd been up at eight, being a demonstrator for Mary Hinkson, teaching people how to do a contraction. So I didn't care. I love working in the daytime. That's what I play with your food is such a nice success. My lunchtime theaters here, I get tired at night.

3 (1h 2m 47s):
I don't know.

2 (1h 2m 49s):
Most people do wait. So was the, was the audition process for chorus line?

3 (1h 2m 56s):
I have a great story. I can tell you what my story is. Okay. So I, I was in, I don't know what I was doing. I had done a lot of off-Broadway work. I had been doing, I had been working a lot. And then of course there were the year where I didn't work. And then I went off to south North Carolina and played Nellie Forbush in south Pacific, in the dinner theater for three months. And I loved that. Actually, I think it was one of those times I had a job and a boyfriend and it was like a relief. It was wonderful to have like a life and then do the show at night. You know, I, I enjoyed that a lot and I didn't, you know, it was a big part and I didn't panic about seeing it.

3 (1h 3m 37s):
And it was just, I learned a lot from doing a part like that. I was doing Fiddler on the roof at a dinner theater in New Jersey, down the street from where my folks lived. And occasionally my mom would stop by her rehearsal and watch the wedding scene. Honest to God. I'm not kidding. She's like, Carol, you ever gonna get married? Are you ever gonna? Okay. So I'm doing Fiddler on the roof, in New Jersey. And there's a guy in the cast, one of the bottle dancers who were dropping off at night on 55th street, because he's working on this little musical about dancers and he would bring in monologues and he'd asked me to read them at rehearsal because he wanted to hear them out loud.

3 (1h 4m 25s):
And there was some stuff about this place to ever hear the peppermint lounge back in the studio. Right. It was a disco thing, but it was also a place where there was something. I remember one the couch girls, girls who would just lie on the couches and the guys, I mean really crazy stuff that did not make it into the show, but some interesting stuff. And I was playing the eldest daughter sidle, and it's a terrific part for me. So I was good. Yeah. And Nick knew I was a dancer. Anyway, this little show called the chorus line was in its workshop. Second workshop. They had already done the I, cause I was not a Michael Bennett dancer. I didn't, you know, I, I, I had auditioned for my goal once for the tour of two for the Seesaw.

3 (1h 5m 10s):
And it was the leading part and I didn't get it. I auditioned, I sang and I read and I read and I sang and I didn't get the part. And I came home and I was like in hysterics for like five days. I just, you know, I, I didn't get the part year and a half later, I'm doing Fiddler on the roof with Nick, Dante in New Jersey. And somebody leaves the second workshop and Nick brings up my name because there's a job all of a sudden to cover, to be in the opening and to cover a couple of parts next, bring up my name. And Michael Bennett says, wait a minute. I know her. I know she's an actress and she's a singer. Can she dance?

3 (1h 5m 52s):
So I showed up the next morning and I danced for 10 minutes and I got the job. I mean, I think, wow. Yeah. That's a great story.

2 (1h 6m 1s):
No. So that means you didn't have to participate in

3 (1h 6m 4s):
Callbacks or nothing. Oh, I started that day. I mean, honestly, it was Fiddler on the roof, you know what, I don't remember whether, how it went. Cause we were already in performance tour or something, you know, I, I it's a long time ago, so I don't really remember, but I know that this particular story is the absolute truth. That's fantastic. That

2 (1h 6m 27s):
Was it a hit right away

3 (1h 6m 29s):
Chorus line. Well, it wasn't, we were in previews. I'm no, we weren't even previous the second workshop, which means it was still being figured out. And when I came to the first rehearsal and sat and watched what was going on, I could not believe what I was seeing because the truth of what was happening on stage and the way it was being built was astounding. It was absolutely astounding because something about it was so bizarre. Oh. And also, also Marvin Hamlisch was the rehearsal pianist on Minnie's boys.

3 (1h 7m 10s):
Wow. So I knew him a little bit, not well, you know, but he was the rehearsal pianist that nobody would listen to a show about the Marx brothers, Marvin would say, wait, this is the Marx brothers. You got to have a naked girl running out of the orchestra pit. You gotta, you gotta, and of course, nobody would listen to him. Wait a minute, just turn this off, stop, stop, turn off. Sorry. So I couldn't get over what I was seeing. And I, I knew from the beginning, of course, I think most of us did that. Something very, very unique was going on and it was always changing. Like Donna McKechnie came in late at the audition, all dressed up in like a fur thing.

3 (1h 7m 56s):
And it was like, I'm sorry, I'm late. I'm sorry. I'm late. And then Zach says, would you put on dance clothes? And she said, no, no, wait a minute. Anyway, you couldn't help. But know sort of, you just kind of put,

2 (1h 8m 8s):
I mean, I remember seeing it when I was a kid and not, not being able to relate as an actor, but now that I think back, it just must've felt so gratifying to be seen for all of the, you know, because like we w the Joe Montana episode, we

3 (1h 8m 28s):
Haven't listened to yet, but I'm looking forward to

2 (1h 8m 30s):
It here today. But he was saying, I love

3 (1h 8m 33s):
Him

2 (1h 8m 34s):
For you. You were saying that when he won the Tony and everybody would say, well, it's like to win the Tony, what's it? Like he said, it's like, you won the lottery, but you been buying tickets for 15 years. You know, that's the part of acting that people now, I think it's a pretty common knowledge that it's really difficult to be an actor, but I don't know how Hmm, how known that was then. And it just, must've been so gratifying for all of those people. I mean, who are living in their real life? The story of that musical. Yeah.

3 (1h 9m 9s):
I think that that's true. And also, I mean, it really did come out of people's experiences. Those stories are so, so to be part of something like that, and down at the public theater, which of course it was a vol place to be, you know, you, you knew that Meryl Streep was walking down the hallway and you knew that. I mean, talk about confidence. I mean, I don't know if you've read her new book, no book about her. No, it's worth the time I listened to it. Actually, I didn't read it. I listened to, it's quite wonderful because you see a very confident person who's working on creating who she is.

1 (1h 9m 47s):
Do you feel, I feel like you have a really strong sense of confidence about yourself too. Where did that come from? Would you agree? First of all, that you have, it sounds like you had some comps, some real chutzpah as a youngster and maybe now as well. Where'd that come from

3 (1h 10m 5s):
Beats me. I have it now because I, I, I, I've had a lot of, a lot of experience. And I, I think that, that, I, I think I know a lot about this, but I don't know that I had it. The trick was to have this kind of confidence when it really matters. Yes. And I think I had it, like if I was in an off-Broadway show, I could say, I don't think that's good enough. Could you restage this blah, blah, blah. Or if I'm in North Carolina, I'm not, I think we need to dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But when it comes down to the real nitty gritty of standing up for yourself, when it really, really matters, boy, that's harder than it looks.

3 (1h 10m 51s):
You know, even things like, I mean, my character, when I eventually took over the role of Miralis, which I under, you know, I was we've covered all these parts. There were nine of us. We sang in the little booth in the wings. We had microphones and little headsets. And the coolest part of all was Jerry Schoenfeld, who was the chairman of the Schubert organization would bring any visiting dignitary who was visiting the city that he was showing around his theaters. He would bring them into our little booth. And then we would watch the show from stage left in our little booth while we're singing, give me the ball, give him the ball. Cause half the dancers on the stage, cause stop singing because they had a solo coming up.

3 (1h 11m 31s):
So, you know, singing in a musical is not easy. You know, there's a lot of pressure and you got to hit high notes and you, you know, you just wake up in the middle of the night going torture, torture, and you have to work through that and finally go, fuck it. You know, fuck it. I don't care what I weigh. Fuck it. I don't care if I, if I can't hit the high note, but it, it takes a long time to get there. You know, I see people who do this all the time. I don't know how they live. I don't know how they sleep at night. There's no wonder people like to hire singers who have graduated from programs where they really understand their voice, know how to protect that, which you don't, you know, you have to learn, you have to learn how to really take.

3 (1h 12m 24s):
That's why, you know, it's wondering about ballet companies now have misuses and we didn't have any of that. You were hanging out there alone. I felt maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I felt. And if I was vulnerable or if I didn't feel well, and I was like, oh, what am I going to do? I can't tell anybody. I can't be, I can't be gone there. I can't be, they'll think less of me. They even think I can't play the part. So it was hard.

2 (1h 12m 54s):
I mean, I've heard you say a lot in this conversation about being alone Wolf, being in a family, having support, not having support. And actually, because I know you, you know, in a different context, I know you through the workshop, the story that you always tell about the workshop is that you were on outside of the building while they were having a Christmas party and you're looking in the window and you described yourself being a little puppy. Like you want it, you want it in. And how I always interpreted that is you just want it to be part of it. You just want it to be part of that group. And yes, friends, like, I'm not sure if that's the thing that has always drawn you to this or, or, or if wanting that and not getting it, like you didn't get it in chorus line.

2 (1h 13m 41s):
If that's been a big impediment in your career, like how do you see yourself in terms of being alone Wolf being supported, being part of a group.

3 (1h 13m 51s):
Interesting. Thank you for asking this. I think about this a lot. I don't like I'm a first of all, astounded that I was able to have a work on Broadway and have that, and then actually got to get married and have a family. I find that incredibly fabulous. That that was something I was able to because I, I, and, and I think as I've gotten older and a little less frightened of whatever life I've discovered that it's not so great to be a lone Wolf. It doesn't really work. It doesn't really work so much for me. Granted, if I want to, I work on a low enough alone because you know, all of us, when we produce theater, we do a lot of work alone.

3 (1h 14m 36s):
Even though we're we're group animals. It doesn't, it didn't work. It didn't work when it comes right down. I mean, I, for whatever the reason I had to do with that way, and I had some really good friends, I mean, God knows we'd sit in coffee shops and talk about acting until Jesus, God, I don't know how much you can talk about this, but that's all we did. And then there were bars downtown. There was the Haymarket and the Charlie's and Joe Allen's and you know, it was always fun to sit around with actors and talk about acting.

3 (1h 15m 17s):
And I loved that, but I somehow wasn't able to incorporate my real life with my work. It took me a longer time to figure that one out. That's all.

2 (1h 15m 27s):
Yeah. That makes sense. It's true. What you say about actors going on ad nauseum about acting and I love it. I still love it. I do too. I mean, I love it too. And I remember being in college and we had like a couple of friends in our close friend group who were not in the theater school. And I mean, they they're like, how are you still talking about this? This is all you talk about. And we're like, well, why, why wouldn't you find this? The most fascinating thing in the world is, is, and I think it's because it's so closely linked to just who you are as a person. So when you're talking about acting, you're also talking about yourself and your understanding of yourself as it changed.

3 (1h 16m 13s):
I think that that's right. And also we love, I love the writers. I have always loved the plays even before I learned anything about how to be a good actor or how to be an honest actor, really using, coming from myself, coming from a truthful place. When I used to go into New York and take Luigi dance classes in high school. Cause I grew up in New Jersey and we were an hour away from the city. I could hop on the bus and come in and take a class. I would stop it. There were bookstores all over times square and I would come in and I would pull out, you know, 31 act plays and I'd sit on the play on the floor and read the short place.

3 (1h 16m 54s):
Cause I, I love to read them. I loved the place and I loved the dancing. That was what I was good at. And it took me a lot longer to, to learn how to take the play. But I always like to reading them, maybe you'll take like the short ones. I don't remember. What did you do? I have no idea what you asked me, but things are better. Now the thing I was gonna ask you next is you mentioned being on a national tour. What is that like? Yeah, well, it was the first national tour of Pippin. We were in Boston for three months. We were in Chicago for five weeks.

3 (1h 17m 35s):
We were in Detroit for what was it like? I loved being at the theater. I loved doing the show. I love doing my part because it was a real dance role. And I, and, and FOSS, he's a good director. He very clear as one point, the character has to talk about her PIP in is her stepson. She's Pippin's wicked stepmother, but she also has another son that she wants to push on Charlemagne to make him the king. And he would just say, you know, sell Louis D you know, he at the symbolist direction, it was so helpful.

3 (1h 18m 18s):
I started to, you know, understand what a director, good direct images, but how was it? It was fun. Sometimes being on the road is a little strange. W what I like the most, believe it or not, there was the five weeks in Detroit. Why, why Detroit? Why we all lived at the same Howard Johnson, there was a pool. It was freezing. So you didn't go out almost ever except to the Saks fifth avenue, which was a block away in the other direction. The theater was in one direction and the other was the other other direction. And for me, that was the most fun somehow how the cast was pulled together.

3 (1h 18m 58s):
We were, I didn't love it when we were in cities, you know, you could find a dance class. You got, I kind of wouldn't know what to do with myself in the daytime. As much being on the road is a little, a little strange for me. It's how long, how long was that Pippin tour is a year. Wow. That's a long time was a year San Francisco. It was a long year. It was a long year. And you know, actually the real truth. If we're going to talk about the real truth here, why not? I had had a year of therapy before, and then I'm out on the road for an entire year. And there's nothing that tells you about your life, like being on the road. You have your cat. Maybe I don't even remember if I had a cat, but that's what you've got.

3 (1h 19m 40s):
Whatever you have with you is what you have. And for some reason, it had a huge effect on me because when I came home, I got a phone call from this fellow that I had met right before I left. And I was awful attitude. I was in an off Broadway show. I was, I was the main character I got, I somehow managed to get some good reviews. I met this guy and he said, you know, hi, how about I give you a call? I said, I'm sorry, I'm going on the road in a week. And I'm working with Bob Fossey and why don't you call me when I get home? Well, when I got home, I was a very different person actually, after a year on the road. And we went out and I think we got engaged three weeks later.

3 (1h 20m 20s):
I mean, I was a very, and that was me that had changed. It was just that it show business was lovely, but I got the message that it was a job, not a family. I got it on some level that I could understand it. And I was able to make up, you know, I mean, all of this is like real stuff. This is exactly what happened to me. I don't know if it happens to other people, but this is what happened to me.

2 (1h 20m 47s):
Is that the person that you married?

3 (1h 20m 50s):
Yeah, we were married for like 20, some odd years. So, and we're still friends.

2 (1h 20m 56s):
And would you say looking back the thing that you were most well or that you were also really in love with? I mean, you w you were really craving to have connection with another person. It sounds like you're really craving to have a reliable connection with another person, because that's, the other thing is theater. So transient, I mean, fast change at all on the tourists, but, you know, everybody tells the same experience. You get an show, you say, I love you so much. We are going to be best friends forever. And then you never ever speak to them again, unless you

3 (1h 21m 31s):
Isn't that awful. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you gather a friend or two and that's always a wonderful, but yeah, exactly.

1 (1h 21m 41s):
It's so intense for such a sh for a period of time. And it, and it's interesting because it sort of recreates this instant close family, and then you're just done. And then I never thought about that in a long time, because I don't do theater really anymore, but then it's over. And then you're alone

2 (1h 22m 1s):
And all your family trauma comes from Shrek. All your family should have kind of ramped up the surface.

3 (1h 22m 6s):
Well, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And even the, you know, with a show like, I, my experience, well, no, I mean, yes, we were a close company, but It was the year. It was the somehow the year, year. And, and I think I was enjoying it, but I wasn't really happy. Yeah. And it's hard to admit that, especially when you're doing something you've been preparing for your entire life,

1 (1h 22m 39s):
I forgot. I feel, I feel like that's a common thing that I noticed with actors as well is when we arrive and are supposed to be doing the thing that's supposed to make us happier than anything in the world, whether it's landing a lead or on a television show, and it doesn't quite work. Like it's not giving you what you thought. There's like a grieving process and the realization that like, oh, wait, I need something else. This enough for me, that's exactly right. Yeah. And our conservatory training a lot of time teaches us that, like, that should be all. We that's just, it, like, that's the goal. And then you realize, wait, what if I want a different goal?

1 (1h 23m 19s):
And I think it's really hard, you know, because without the dedication, you might not have landed on Broadway in a national tour, but it doesn't mean that it's enough. It's so interesting. It's like, you have to pretend that's all you want because you want to make it. And then once you've got the thing that you want, and it's not enough, there's a whole different process that habits think, gosh, you said yes, to going on a date with them, you might not have

3 (1h 23m 46s):
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And we were kind of in the same place cause he went to work for somebody at NBC. And so we were both like totally up to our ears in work. And then all of a sudden we turned around and went, wait a minute here, something's wrong with this is this, this picture. So, and you sort of rely on theater as the place to go for everything you need because we loved it. So I still sometimes read theater books. I read books about Balanchine. If I'm, you know, over the pandemic, I, you know, who reads books about the Dion go-live Russian dance company. But for some reason I found that.

3 (1h 24m 29s):
So did you

1 (1h 24m 30s):
Completely leave the

3 (1h 24m 32s):
Acting and performing? Okay. No, but we did go well, we got, we, we, we actually went to LA for a couple of years, right after like maybe six months after we got married, we just sort of went, you want to get out of here? Yeah. Let's get out of here. So we went to LA just that, that, you know, and found, you know, there's, there's work in LA for theater, but it's like the stepchild, you know, there was a S a sag strike. And I was doing, working the show, working in a million people. Yeah. We had a nice group. You know, the theater is fun. It's not like it's successful, but it's fun in California.

3 (1h 25m 11s):
So a lot of us got agents and stuff from doing that. I got on a little TV show for a couple of weeks and that it was canceled. It was kind of a running joke of, oh, so I worked, I think I sort of also saw that I needed a better acting teacher. And that's when I found John Len. And I went to that class Monday nights. Of course, I think I've spent every Monday night of my life at some theater thing. I wouldn't know what to do if we didn't have the workshop to tell you that truth, I would not know what to do on a Monday night. So I, I found a class that was also helpful and worked on acting again.

3 (1h 25m 51s):
It was a re this has been a lifetime pursuit for me, learning how to be a better actor. I find it absolutely fascinating. I really do. So you feel like you're still, you're still actively engaged in the process of wanting to be a benefactor. Totally. Do you have more big, big goals or dreams? I have no idea. You know, the, the, the, the shift, I mean, I was able to keep working, even having kids. We stayed in the city for a long time and I worked less, but I did work. I did one summer tour of chorus line. I took my son max, who was one I had to prove to myself, I could be an actress and a mother.

3 (1h 26m 35s):
I don't think I got much sleep that summer, but it was it's all. And then, I mean, as they got older and then we moved up to Connecticut and then I was still getting some jobs. I think I did a show called Theda Bara and the frontier rabbi, which was really fun because that Vivian Matalan directed it. And he's a good director. I don't know. You know, I just took jobs when they came along and we worked it out. You know, you got a babysitter who, you didn't even know their last name. It was tricky, but we moved up to Connecticut. And the best thing that I was able to find for myself was I was rereading some of my old books.

3 (1h 27m 17s):
And I found this book by Agnes de Mille called dance to the Piper. And I thought, oh, these are stages where these stories. And I wrote myself and performed a one woman play about Agnes de Mille, which was using my dance and love of dance. And I took three stories. I took the story of her getting to do rodeo and then getting to do Oklahoma and then carousel, and then having a life, you know, resolving. So I took five years out of her life. And I did that for six years. I did it at, oh, wow, that's a long run. Well, I worked at it on the ward at the workshop 20 minutes at a time, did at Fairfield university for the first time with a live piano player and, you know, and, and adding dance because it was a piece I went to theaters all over the east coast, you know, little theaters that hired me for two days or three days went to the national portrait gallery.

3 (1h 28m 16s):
That was a blast. And then I really did it at women's clubs, but it was something to focus on something, to work on, something to make better. It's great to have something, something, it doesn't matter what it is to be engaged in. I think. So that was really helpful to come out of the city and feel more creative. So that

1 (1h 28m 40s):
Tell, tell me about, I'm curious about your, your lunchtime plays. What's going on there.

3 (1h 28m 45s):
I'm getting, yeah. There. Okay. So eventually Agnes, the middle son took the rights back from me. Some other guy talked him into blah, blah, blah. So I, the six it ended, you know, and it took me a while to put down the website and I, I could not let go. I a Royal pain in the neck with him, but I finally just let it go. And then I had joined a committee of cultural arts committee in junior high school, whatever the kids were in. And I was sitting there with my friend Nancy diamond and, and the committee started to get taken over by MBAs who didn't have jobs. So we were sitting in the back row, being bad kids going, we've got to get out of this committee and go do something.

3 (1h 29m 25s):
What can we do? So we thought, what do we like? Well, we like theater and we like food. So we thought, gee, if we started to do a lunchtime theater thing, do you think anybody would come? And we invited our friends to the first one and we found some, one act plays and we did a little, whatever we did for lunch and people liked it. And it became a real thing. So I got to use my love of plays. I searched for wonderful one act plays, and we w w we, and then we started in Westport. Then we added Fairfield. Then we added Stanford. And that ended because they changed the building around then we went to Greenwich. So I'm still doing this 15 years later.

3 (1h 30m 6s):
And I've written a book about stage readings, which is, I think, amazing that Smith and crowds published my book about three years ago, it's called staged reading magic. And it's everything we learned about from that stage readings that play with your food. And it's, it's not that it's so great for professionals, although it's good for young professionals, because it's all about doing what people tell you you can't do, or you shouldn't do, but it's fabulous for people for community theaters and anybody who wants to get a group together and put on something. That's cool because the truth of that, see, it's all. Yes.

3 (1h 30m 46s):
And, and the fact that I'm going to show it to you, hold on. Well, I don't have to show it to you now. I'll, I'll, I'll get you copies of it or something, but it's a nice little small book, you know, and it's, it's Smith and cross is a huge, fabulous publisher. And I sold

2 (1h 31m 4s):
It and I love it. I mean, I'm definitely going to check it out.

3 (1h 31m 7s):
You sold it to where I, well, I mean, I sold it to them and I sold it without an agent. Oh, I did. It's all about everything they tell you, you can't do. Sure. People did give me people to contact. And I w and they all sort of turned me down or they worried whatever one, one or two. And it was a summer thing where I got more and more focused on what I was trying to communicate with this book and how I was trying to say it, that by the end of the summer, and I, and I wrote to Eric Kraus, I was so clear on what I was trying to do, that he bought the book. Wow.

2 (1h 31m 44s):
Oh, that is a very good, an inspirational story because we talk, we do talk a lot about, you just have to make your own stuff and you have to forge your own path. And maybe for some people doing it the way somebody else did it works, but most of the people have to figure it out on their own. Let's make it fresh

3 (1h 32m 5s):
Each time. I think that that's exactly right. And it's really about figuring it out, how there's always another door, you know, you can't. I used to, like, I, sometimes I think I enjoyed getting an audition more than I actually liked getting the job. I feel the exact

1 (1h 32m 24s):
Same way, really?

3 (1h 32m 27s):
How am I going to get into that room? Who am I going to call that? No. Who am I going to run into at an open call? And I went to open calls when I was older, like in my forties, because I wouldn't know the stage manager. I had no problem going to an open call if there was a part that I somehow couldn't, you know, cause I usually have an agent somewhere because I sometimes get jobs, but it's the, it's the negotiating. How am I gonna, I love that part of it. Isn't that? It's the art of the

2 (1h 33m 0s):
Deal.

1 (1h 33m 3s):
Something about the research and forensics and yes. Getting in there and yeah, it's fun. That's what it is. It's

3 (1h 33m 13s):
Fun. It's

2 (1h 33m 15s):
It should be fun. I mean, that's kind of, you know, right. Like it's a play there. I used to sit, one of our teachers used to say, it's called a play for a regional work.

3 (1h 33m 26s):
Well, yeah. That, but that's right. That's right. And, and, and that's part of what the book is about too, because you know, a million people do stage readings, you put up, music stands, you put bottles of water next to the chair, that's it. But if you're doing 10 of them, you can't do that. Right. So the whole purpose, the whole thing about the book is figuring out what each play might mix it up the best way to do each play. And it's all about thinking it through and thinking, what, what table would say suburban living room? How would you put to, to noble people, people who were, you know, status, how would you make them feel like they were going to the gallows?

3 (1h 34m 15s):
Well, you put them on low stools. Right? And also we have wonderful actors up here. So I was able to really tap into, which is why I admire the workshop is because I met so many good actors. You know, Brett summers was hilarious and Fred is Fred Strava was a playwright was hilarious. So we had a lot of that. That amazingly is still going on. I love this. So yeah.

2 (1h 34m 42s):
Well, this has been awesome, Carol Carol at the time.

3 (1h 34m 48s):
Well, thank you for letting me talk about this. You know, it, it,

1 (1h 34m 52s):
I feel like there's another book in your future. I just have to say,

2 (1h 34m 56s):
Can we show

3 (1h 34m 57s):
And what would that book be

5 (1h 34m 58s):
About? I don't know, but there's something about Carol's life in the theater and like what you've learned and

3 (1h 35m 5s):
How

2 (1h 35m 5s):
It could be about this issue of lone Wolf. And, you know, I don't know much has been written about the, the idea of how the actor needs to actively engage with a community.

3 (1h 35m 18s):
Oh, it's everything. That was one of the things about Michael Howard as a teacher. I mean, he would have a Christmas party every year and he would say, you know, some people are working, they'll just come for the party. And some people are cooking the Turkey, you felt like, you know, same way, like Albert Haig, who was a wonderful teacher as a composer. And you might know him because he plays Sher professor share. Roskies the last story I'll tell you on fame, the movie and the TV show, but he was never an actor. He was a composer. And he knew from sitting on the other side of the table, how you could get somebody's attention and get a job.

3 (1h 35m 58s):
Wow. And he taught a class boy, that was the best class I ever taught took because he taught, you had to get a fricking job, how to take what you do and put it in the window, like an expensive dress store. They don't have 20 dresses. They have one, right? It's all about putting it back in your own lap, putting it, what do you have to contribute? What do you contribute? If I cast you, what are you going to bring to this party? Right? Why should we hire you? You have to answer that question. You have to know who wrote the song. You're singing at this audition. You have to know who wrote the play.

3 (1h 36m 38s):
You have to know a key. You sing and you have to, all of this is because you're a response and they teach this now in college. But I found him younger. You would teach us somehow how to take a song and actually ruin it so that all of a sudden somebody has got your you've got somebody's attention. And then they'll say, wait a minute. What are you doing to that song? Could you sing it normal? And then if you're good, you've not only done well, but you've gotten somebody's attention and set yourself aside from the pack. I don't know what I have in the middle.

5 (1h 37m 15s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina <inaudible>. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?