WEBVTT 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.280 Sam Harnett: Okay, well, if we do something different, maybe it'll affect the listener a different way. 00:00:03.290 --> 00:00:07.980 And the idea was, let's use sound as a vehicle to sort of grab attention in a different way. 00:00:08.389 --> 00:00:13.820 And I would argue that that's the lasting impression that I feel like in media, it's so hard to get when you don't break format. 00:00:15.580 --> 00:00:20.820 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:21.020 --> 00:00:26.630 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcasts, an agency for higher education podcasters. 00:00:26.970 --> 00:00:31.200 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of JPod Creations, podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:31.360 --> 00:00:32.970 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:38.160 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:38.229 --> 00:00:41.379 Please also join our community at HigherEdPods.com. 00:00:41.879 --> 00:00:51.059 Neil McPhedran: So Jen, in this episode, we speak with Sam Harnett and Chris Hoff from the Ways of Knowing podcast. 00:00:53.089 --> 00:00:54.719 These guys are super interesting. 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:56.719 I'm really excited about this conversation. 00:00:57.060 --> 00:01:19.400 After years in public radio, making and mixing stories that Chris and Sam say all sounded exactly the same, they wanted to make a radio show slash podcast that didn't tell you a story or what to think, but they wanted to do a show that was all about sound, instead of the language in the narrative. 00:01:19.490 --> 00:01:23.770 So super interesting where they have netted out. 00:01:23.830 --> 00:01:25.780 I really enjoyed this conversation. 00:01:25.940 --> 00:01:26.390 Jennifer-Lee: I agree. 00:01:26.390 --> 00:01:30.980 I really enjoyed this conversation as well, obviously being in radio and loving sound. 00:01:30.999 --> 00:01:34.450 This was the perfect interview for me, plus you. 00:01:34.540 --> 00:01:43.070 And unfortunately, we are a week late, not because Neil and I are lazy, but because we had some tech issues. 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:45.610 Neil McPhedran: We had serious tech issues, like everything. 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:55.699 We had an issue with our recording original interview and Chris was so kind to book another time with us. 00:01:55.770 --> 00:01:56.910 Jennifer-Lee: And then we had a fighter jet show. 00:01:56.910 --> 00:02:05.750 Neil McPhedran: We had a fighter jet show in that rebooking, but near the end of this interview, there's a couple of answers from our conversation that we've stitched in after the fact. 00:02:05.750 --> 00:02:08.799 So you might catch that, you might not catch that. 00:02:08.910 --> 00:02:11.650 But that was really kind of Chris to do that. 00:02:12.010 --> 00:02:17.490 But yeah, it seemed like everything we did for this episode, we hit up against issues. 00:02:17.490 --> 00:02:19.119 And I think all podcasters, 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:20.190 Jennifer-Lee: Sound issues too. 00:02:20.190 --> 00:02:21.680 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, ironic sound issues when, 00:02:21.760 --> 00:02:27.700 Jennifer-Lee: Which is ironic because if you listen to this podcast, we're going to get into it in just a second, it is like a piece of art. 00:02:27.720 --> 00:02:29.600 It's beautifully crafted. 00:02:29.660 --> 00:02:39.855 And actually, I'm going to say that I don't think, obviously didn't plan a fighter jet show, but actually it's kind of fitting once you listen to their podcasts that there were sounds in behind. 00:02:40.545 --> 00:02:42.285 So it's kind of just ambient. 00:02:42.285 --> 00:02:43.505 It's all about this episode. 00:02:43.505 --> 00:02:45.305 So, uh, let's get into it. 00:02:46.595 --> 00:02:47.484 Neil McPhedran: Welcome Chris and Sam. 00:02:47.484 --> 00:02:49.535 It's really nice to have you here on Continuing Studies. 00:02:50.015 --> 00:02:50.214 Chris Hoff: Yeah. 00:02:50.214 --> 00:02:50.904 Nice to be here. 00:02:51.285 --> 00:02:52.004 Sam Harnett: Thanks for having us. 00:02:52.175 --> 00:02:52.464 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:02:52.464 --> 00:02:57.255 I'm really excited to have you guys on because I think you're probably the most unique podcast we've had on to date 00:02:58.165 --> 00:02:58.755 Chris Hoff: There we go. 00:02:58.805 --> 00:02:59.415 That's something. 00:03:00.885 --> 00:03:02.835 Hey, that's big praise coming from Chris Hoff. 00:03:04.535 --> 00:03:14.294 Neil McPhedran: Okay, why don't we just start with what is The World According to Sound and maybe just sort of a quick little insight into your background into podcasting. 00:03:14.475 --> 00:03:28.065 Chris Hoff: We started this about, god, nine, ten, years ago actually in 2015, and Sam and I come from the public radio world and really the show was a kind of a reaction to the most forms that you get in public radio. 00:03:28.175 --> 00:03:35.685 Like we really started off as a, as like a strict sort of show focused on sound and not on, you know, narrative and not on talking. 00:03:35.695 --> 00:03:39.464 So we made this very short ninety second show for a couple of years. 00:03:39.525 --> 00:03:50.595 Each episode was ninety seconds and it focused on just like one particular sound, like the sound of mud pots at the Salton Sea, or the sound of a grizzly bear eating a carcass in Yellowstone National Park. 00:03:50.595 --> 00:03:53.124 And all we would say, we would kind of tell you what the thing was. 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:56.880 And then we just listened to it for like a long period of time. 00:03:56.880 --> 00:03:59.530 That's kind of like an uncomfortable period of time in the public radio world. 00:04:00.410 --> 00:04:10.700 And so like we did that for a few years and that morphed into this live eight channel sort of surround sound show that we toured with at universities. 00:04:10.730 --> 00:04:12.559 We would, you know, set up this ring of speakers. 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:13.600 People would sit in the middle. 00:04:13.600 --> 00:04:16.130 We'd give them eye masks and turn off the lights. 00:04:16.130 --> 00:04:18.995 So it's this total, you know, sensory deprivation thing. 00:04:19.144 --> 00:04:23.245 And we did that for three or four years, and that took many different forms, too. 00:04:23.245 --> 00:04:32.945 And we finally landed on this thing that we're doing now, which is maybe slightly less sound focused, but still sort of driving our, you know, concepts and our narratives. 00:04:32.975 --> 00:04:39.415 And we're doing work now with universities on, like, really focusing on humanities work, I would say. 00:04:40.015 --> 00:04:41.844 That's the sort version. 00:04:42.460 --> 00:04:47.040 Sam Harnett: Yeah, and the impetus for The World According to Sound, as Chris said, was to do something that was a reaction to public radio. 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:56.869 And the ninety second convention and the focus on sound were just constraints that would break us from doing the traditional public radio narrative, interview, uh, information based piece. 00:04:57.619 --> 00:05:09.030 And then, as Chris was saying, we did this traveling live show where we had, we took all the sounds, we put them on the speaker array, and we did a show at Cornell, um, and when we were at Cornell, we met a professor named Jeremy Braddock. 00:05:09.159 --> 00:05:19.070 He brought us to Cornell for a semester to do a residency, and it was at that residency that we thought, okay, you know, we've been doing this work as kind of a commentary on media and public radio. 00:05:19.070 --> 00:05:22.859 And we've been really trying to experiment with the form and see what we could do with audio. 00:05:23.320 --> 00:05:33.259 And at Cornell, we met all these professors who had this, all these, this great intellectual work, and we thought, oh, we can actually, using these things we've been experimenting with, we can sort of bring, uh, academic work to life in a new way. 00:05:33.270 --> 00:05:35.470 And that's when the Ways of Knowing project started. 00:05:36.050 --> 00:05:51.715 And the basic impetus of Ways of Knowing is how can we take what's happening in academia and represent it in audio without reducing it, uh, without sort of pandering to somebody to give people kind of what they want or dumbing academia down. 00:05:52.045 --> 00:05:57.525 Um, but still make something that, that lots of people in the general public would like to, to interact with. 00:05:57.754 --> 00:06:05.974 So, so the, the goal is in every season to, to make something that, uh, honors the work in academia, but also enlivens it through sound. 00:06:07.445 --> 00:06:07.795 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:06:07.795 --> 00:06:12.265 And I thought it was so interesting to listen to, and my background is radio as well. 00:06:12.295 --> 00:06:19.105 So, you always want to make sure that you're obviously doing things unique to get the listener to take that journey with you. 00:06:19.105 --> 00:06:26.274 So I love the fact that it started from there, but I also was thinking that this podcast is very David Lynch esque. 00:06:26.275 --> 00:06:32.814 It reminded me very much of like, well, I don't know what they call it because it was a few years ago, I guess the continuation of Twin Peaks. 00:06:32.844 --> 00:06:37.790 And they have an episode in season three that, you is very similar to what you guys are doing. 00:06:37.790 --> 00:06:43.750 There was no actors or cast and it was just like weird sounds and lights and photos for like an hour. 00:06:43.750 --> 00:06:45.650 And everyone was like, what did I just watch? 00:06:46.930 --> 00:06:53.049 And, uh, for your podcast, what I love is like, it does that, but you are learning a lot of things. 00:06:53.049 --> 00:06:57.530 I was listening to the one that touches upon industrial revolution. 00:06:57.549 --> 00:07:04.140 And I actually have to say, I found like the sound effects of the gears turning very soothing. 00:07:04.549 --> 00:07:05.549 Chris Hoff: Yeah, I kind of like that. 00:07:05.549 --> 00:07:17.490 But it's also like the thing that you, your takeaway from that wasn't like, oh, I learned about, you know, mechanistic materialism, but your takeaway was like, the sounds is kind of what arrested you. 00:07:17.490 --> 00:07:18.650 And that's what you remembered. 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:40.915 And I, I feel like that's like been a big thing in this work is, you know, Sam and I have made hundreds of these feature stories for public radio and no one's ever come back years later and told us that they remembered a story that, that we did on, you know, gig workers or the homeless, but people remember hearing ants crawl over microphones, like five years later. 00:07:41.415 --> 00:07:57.484 And so there's something to that, like the memory, I mean, when you hear something you just aren't used to, and you attach it to maybe a tiny bit of information, that thing really sticks in a way that me telling you that, you know, the intricacies of homeless policy in San Francisco, that'll just never, that'll never stick. 00:07:58.229 --> 00:08:00.599 Sam Harnett: And that gets it back to again, why we started The World According to Sound. 00:08:00.599 --> 00:08:04.729 I mean, I was a reporter at KQED, I was doing all this, I report on tech and labor. 00:08:04.999 --> 00:08:08.389 Like I'm proud of the reporting, like I had a beat, like I established a narrative. 00:08:08.389 --> 00:08:12.109 I think that was really important and missing from the discussion of technology and labor. 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:16.469 But as Chris was saying, I would do these stories on all things considered or morning edition or marketplace. 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:19.240 And people I know would call me up and be like, oh, I heard your story this morning. 00:08:19.750 --> 00:08:20.520 I'm like, oh, what'd you think? 00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:22.910 And they couldn't even remember, like, the most salient details. 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:25.300 They're like, oh yeah, it was about, they know the topic. 00:08:25.320 --> 00:08:28.150 It was about gig workers, or it was about Uber, or it was about Airbnb. 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:34.030 And I started thinking, you know, I worked really hard on that story, and I, you know, it was like, I thought pretty good. 00:08:34.230 --> 00:08:37.879 And then I realized, oh, the problem is that it's just, there's a format to it. 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:43.360 There's a set length, there's a set narrative arc, there's a set way that you present the stories and the quotes. 00:08:43.944 --> 00:08:51.975 And that's when Chris and I, uh, kind of united, we had a long talk about that, and I was like, okay, well, if we do something different, maybe it'll affect the listener in a different way. 00:08:51.995 --> 00:08:56.675 And the idea was, let's use sound as a vehicle to sort of grab attention in a different way. 00:08:57.095 --> 00:09:04.785 And I would argue that, yeah, you, that remembering those gears, I bet you also remember some of the information, or the ideas, or the concepts, or you have a feeling for it. 00:09:05.329 --> 00:09:10.150 That that's the lasting impression that I feel like in media, it's so hard to get when you don't break format. 00:09:11.319 --> 00:09:14.469 Jennifer-Lee: Well, sound creates a memory just like smell does, right? 00:09:14.479 --> 00:09:17.229 And so I think it would be a great tool. 00:09:17.609 --> 00:09:28.569 And more and more younger kids are using it a little bit to create more podcasts for kids kind of like this, because I feel like for me, I would have learned more and been able to retain the information. 00:09:28.569 --> 00:09:35.569 Like I said, I'm probably going to remember the gears turning for a long time and that information because it was interesting. 00:09:35.719 --> 00:09:57.660 I was just telling Neil, I said, it's like, it's a visual element, even though it's not a visual element, because I could picture the gear and then remember the actual history around the industrial revolution where it was helpful opposed to you guys just droning on, even though I'm sure you have great personalities, I'm sure you wouldn't make it boring, but droning on about the industrial revolution. 00:09:58.455 --> 00:10:03.115 Neil McPhedran: I'm curious, so now the focus is the humanities. 00:10:03.175 --> 00:10:07.905 Is that your interest that sort of took you there to focus in on the humanities? 00:10:07.905 --> 00:10:16.400 What we just were chatting about, that it's audio and it just lends itself nicely to bringing the, academic side of the humanities to life. 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.699 Chris Hoff: I actually think probably the sciences lend themselves more to sound, but 00:10:20.699 --> 00:10:21.279 Sam Harnett: I agree. 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.239 I would have said, I would have said the exact same thing. 00:10:23.239 --> 00:10:23.419 Yeah. 00:10:23.420 --> 00:10:23.770 Chris Hoff: Yeah. 00:10:23.770 --> 00:10:25.689 So actually I think what we're doing is kind of harder. 00:10:25.849 --> 00:10:36.280 I mean, once Sam and I both come from the humanities background, so like we do have interests there, like a lot of like sort of theory, philosophy, stuff like that, you know, literary criticism, but also just like, it's obvious. 00:10:36.734 --> 00:10:43.374 It's painfully obvious, you know, working in public media, or just media in general, that humanities are totally marginalized. 00:10:43.415 --> 00:10:47.194 Like, maybe once in a while you'll get a social scientist. 00:10:47.969 --> 00:10:51.819 You'll never hear from like an English professor or a philosopher. 00:10:51.980 --> 00:10:55.680 It's all just like political scientists, economists, big time. 00:10:55.990 --> 00:10:57.550 And of course, like the hard sciences. 00:10:57.709 --> 00:11:02.059 And so it's just like, for us, like humanities have a ton to offer that people don't even think about. 00:11:02.089 --> 00:11:06.269 And so we just thought this is a way for us to actually highlight those things. 00:11:06.470 --> 00:11:07.279 Neil McPhedran: It totally makes sense. 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:13.874 And as you were talking through that in my brain, I was just thinking, yeah, I work with a lot of university podcasting. 00:11:13.905 --> 00:11:14.744 You're totally right. 00:11:14.765 --> 00:11:16.374 None of them are humanities. 00:11:16.694 --> 00:11:23.984 Sam Harnett: Well, I think established mainstream media, like, even the sort of, the representation of science is sort of a caricature of science. 00:11:24.564 --> 00:11:32.624 I would argue kind of like a hyper rationalist take, like a scientist comes in to deliver a fact or to justify an opinion. 00:11:32.634 --> 00:11:35.915 And it's sort of being used, I would argue, in like a not very deep way. 00:11:36.354 --> 00:11:43.055 I think, you know, if you look back at like the whole debate around climate change, like the ludicrousness of having all these scientists come on, like, oh, yes, I believe in climate change. 00:11:43.055 --> 00:11:45.584 And oh, here's one climate change skeptic scientist. 00:11:45.584 --> 00:11:50.204 And like, are we really transmitting deep ideas about what's happening in science to the public? 00:11:50.204 --> 00:12:00.255 No, they were being used again, because the format of a lot of mainstream media requires like a simple stance on the side, a simple presentation of a fact. 00:12:00.464 --> 00:12:03.025 So you're getting a very glancing blow from the sciences. 00:12:03.634 --> 00:12:06.924 So yeah, again, we, by going to the humanities, we wanted to go hard away from that. 00:12:06.934 --> 00:12:10.124 It's like, okay, there's all this great work happening in the humanities and social sciences. 00:12:10.555 --> 00:12:14.374 We're taking a non traditional approach to the way we're making audio. 00:12:14.724 --> 00:12:16.804 That maybe was why it was like a good fit. 00:12:16.984 --> 00:12:23.054 Jennifer-Lee: Your production, I have to say, it's probably one of the best production podcasts I've ever heard because it's just so crisp and clear. 00:12:23.124 --> 00:12:26.124 Do you guys do all the sound effects or do you hire someone else to do that? 00:12:26.134 --> 00:12:27.344 Or does that come from your background? 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:29.039 Chris Hoff: No, we do all that. 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.279 It's just Sam and I for all this stuff, which is actually a bit of a problem. 00:12:32.579 --> 00:12:35.109 Sam and I are good and talented, but no, it's just like, 00:12:35.439 --> 00:12:37.719 Jennifer-Lee: It takes a long time to make it sound that good. 00:12:37.880 --> 00:12:41.310 Chris Hoff: I mean, a lot of the recordings too is stuff that we've actually recorded over the years. 00:12:41.310 --> 00:12:43.780 But of course, we've taken stuff and borrowed stuff from other people. 00:12:43.790 --> 00:12:46.790 It's not like, but yeah, all the conceptualizing, all the mixing and all that. 00:12:46.790 --> 00:12:48.109 It's just Sam and I. 00:12:48.249 --> 00:12:51.900 Sam Harnett: Yeah, I think it would have been impossible to start this project without the background that we have. 00:12:51.900 --> 00:12:54.640 I mean, between us, we probably have thirty years in public radio. 00:12:55.124 --> 00:12:58.514 Chris is primarily a sound engineer and I was primarily a reporter. 00:12:58.514 --> 00:13:00.094 So we had like different skill sets. 00:13:00.194 --> 00:13:06.944 And then we spent a lot of years, like the first few years, The World According to Sound was really a side project where we were just experimenting and also like teaching each other stuff. 00:13:07.204 --> 00:13:09.354 Like I learned how to mix audio from Chris. 00:13:09.494 --> 00:13:10.454 I'm still learning. 00:13:10.904 --> 00:13:16.785 So yeah, the only real reason we can do it is because we had those skills and because we had like a friendship that we could work well together. 00:13:17.104 --> 00:13:23.180 But really like, if you listen to the science and metaphor show, I mean, I think that thing took us a year. 00:13:23.800 --> 00:13:25.670 I mean, not we were working on other projects. 00:13:25.829 --> 00:13:29.660 We probably each worked several hundred hours on that two hour podcast. 00:13:30.400 --> 00:13:37.990 And I think actually should have been a team of four or five given all the like research, reporting, mixing, interviewing. 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:39.589 I mean, it's just so many things went into it. 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:45.209 Jennifer-Lee: I know a lot of people are probably listening, that's a lot of work for a podcast, but that's why your podcast is so successful and so good. 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.660 And I think a lot of people could take some of that knowledge. 00:13:47.660 --> 00:14:00.614 Yes, it doesn't have to be fully, high produced like you guys do, just use a little bit of elements, even if it is an interview format, even if it is a solo podcast, I think a lot of people need to just need to tighten up their sound quality. 00:14:00.784 --> 00:14:12.164 A lot of messages are getting lost because more and more people are just hitting record and maybe not editing or getting it like smoothed out by a professional editor. 00:14:12.474 --> 00:14:18.924 And because everyone wants to be free and loose, that's fine, but it still needs to sound properly because I'm not going to listen to like five minutes of fuzz. 00:14:19.304 --> 00:14:28.274 Sam Harnett: I think part of the issue right now in the audio world is that it is very easy to create and distribute your own podcast at the lowest quality level. 00:14:28.284 --> 00:14:32.194 I mean, anyone now has a microphone and a distribution channel and can interview people. 00:14:32.244 --> 00:14:35.994 And I think actually, you know, there's something powerful about that. 00:14:35.994 --> 00:14:39.074 And that can be done to reach a huge audience as some people do. 00:14:39.344 --> 00:14:44.224 But there's so much content now, to differentiate yourself, I think you have to think about format. 00:14:44.224 --> 00:14:49.954 But that actually doesn't mean, I think, to do something very necessarily like highly produced in terms of sound design. 00:14:49.964 --> 00:14:57.025 Like I think it, actually in the structure of how you think about your interview show, or how you think about your narrative show like the whole format. 00:14:57.035 --> 00:14:59.075 Like what's the approach, like what's the intent? 00:14:59.115 --> 00:15:02.755 I think there's lots of creative things that could be done on a kind of lo fi level. 00:15:02.825 --> 00:15:05.055 It requires thinking about format instead of content. 00:15:05.344 --> 00:15:06.164 Now everyone thinks about content. 00:15:06.164 --> 00:15:07.304 Oh, we're going to talk about this. 00:15:07.305 --> 00:15:08.345 Like well, how are you going to talk about it? 00:15:08.375 --> 00:15:10.025 What's the structure of how you talk about it? 00:15:10.135 --> 00:15:19.300 Chris Hoff: Anybody can just do a sort of rambling, you know, you can get whatever, two people together and just talk about X and they're kind of, if there's no structure to it, why would you want to keep on listening? 00:15:19.349 --> 00:15:25.303 If you feel like it's actually going somewhere, that requires a lot of, you know, pre production and it's like a lot of thinking the thing through. 00:15:25.513 --> 00:15:35.513 What everybody's sort of, you know, motivations are, especially like in the academic humanities world, professors are just, I mean, I don't know what, why people are, like who their audience even expects to be. 00:15:35.948 --> 00:15:42.238 If they're just sort of recording themselves talking to their buddy for a half an hour, like, I don't know what they're even trying to really go for. 00:15:42.408 --> 00:15:43.868 Sam Harnett: That's another thing to distinguish us too. 00:15:43.888 --> 00:15:52.108 Like the academic podcast, it is about the intellectual work that we were representing and transmitting, but it is also still about making like kind of novel things in audio. 00:15:52.108 --> 00:15:54.533 So we have like an kind of an ulterior motive. 00:15:54.573 --> 00:15:58.773 Like in the science and metaphor show is a really good example of that. 00:15:58.783 --> 00:16:03.643 Like instead of making, you know, individual podcast episodes, we made like a two hour podcast. 00:16:03.673 --> 00:16:04.923 The whole thing is sound design. 00:16:04.933 --> 00:16:06.163 The audio is spatialized. 00:16:06.163 --> 00:16:07.783 It's like this kind of journey. 00:16:07.783 --> 00:16:20.263 Like that for us was to make a thing that would be hopefully something people would want to listen to for, for many years and a thing that's interesting in part because of its intellectual content, but in part as a piece of audio. 00:16:20.793 --> 00:16:32.583 Neil McPhedran: I love this line of thinking beyond just the content, but thinking about the format and how much you two put into thinking about the format and listener on the other end. 00:16:32.673 --> 00:16:33.623 It's really interesting. 00:16:33.623 --> 00:16:45.013 I think that's a great challenge for us all to not just think about the content, but to think about the format and to put some consideration into there and consider the audience as well. 00:16:45.013 --> 00:16:52.673 And to your point about the, just a professor just sort of decided to hop, you know, a couple of professors or whatever hopping on a mic or talking. 00:16:52.723 --> 00:17:04.823 I think that because the bar is so low, they're mistakingly sometimes is this attitude of, oh, their colleague has had this show for three years and look at the success they're seeing and they want that too. 00:17:04.823 --> 00:17:09.563 And so they just think they're just gonna, couple of guys, hop on a mic and away we go. 00:17:09.563 --> 00:17:14.453 But there's so much more to do to be considerate about that we've just discussed here. 00:17:14.613 --> 00:17:25.498 I'd love to dig into how each season is different, but also each season is a new relationship with another university. 00:17:25.578 --> 00:17:27.628 Can you unpack that a little bit for us? 00:17:27.838 --> 00:17:33.068 Because you've worked with a number of different institutions over the last couple of years, if I have that correctly. 00:17:33.108 --> 00:17:37.398 Chris Hoff: Well, we've released three sort of seasons and each one is with a different university. 00:17:37.418 --> 00:17:41.488 It's been a University of Washington, Johns Hopkins and University of Chicago. 00:17:42.183 --> 00:17:48.223 And we got two more coming with Claremont McKenna College and Cornell and then, yeah, probably some other stuff after that. 00:17:48.223 --> 00:17:50.773 But those five are sort of definite and, 00:17:51.353 --> 00:17:54.033 Sam Harnett: I mean like sixth season will be a follow up with the University of Washington. 00:17:54.103 --> 00:17:54.973 Chris Hoff: Oh yeah, right. 00:17:55.103 --> 00:17:55.513 Sam Harnett: Yes. 00:17:55.803 --> 00:17:56.143 Chris Hoff: Right. 00:17:56.813 --> 00:18:04.048 But like the, I mean, you know, it's, it really depends, again, on what you're, we're trying to make this our livelihood, essentially. 00:18:04.058 --> 00:18:08.128 So, like, money and resources are an obvious factor in that. 00:18:08.128 --> 00:18:16.518 And so we sort of cast a wide net and, like, we are working with people who do have at least some funds, you know, to help us make these things. 00:18:16.528 --> 00:18:17.948 So that's, like, one thing. 00:18:17.998 --> 00:18:24.468 But the other thing, too, is just that, yeah, like, every university or humanities center at universities, like, they have different interests. 00:18:25.488 --> 00:18:27.458 And that to us is really exciting too. 00:18:27.458 --> 00:18:36.858 'Cause like, so for example, we just released a series on the role of metaphor and science with the university of Chicago and under humanities center there, the Institute on the Formation of Knowledge. 00:18:36.908 --> 00:18:40.608 And that topic just happened to be something that they were super interested in at the time. 00:18:40.608 --> 00:18:43.518 And it wasn't on Sam and my radar, but they sort of brought that up. 00:18:43.518 --> 00:18:45.648 And we thought, oh yeah, that seems like a really good idea. 00:18:45.768 --> 00:18:56.858 The ideas aren't all from us, but it's just like being at different universities with different sort of faculty, like people just have different interests and we kind of say, okay, that's going to work in audio or it's not. 00:18:56.878 --> 00:18:59.608 But yes, it is a sort of give and take. 00:18:59.608 --> 00:19:01.258 Like it's not, it's not all just us. 00:19:01.258 --> 00:19:06.478 And I liked that there's all these different institutions and some are, you know, public schools and some are private schools. 00:19:06.478 --> 00:19:08.668 And I think that's really good too. 00:19:08.678 --> 00:19:13.068 We don't want, you know, a bunch of podcasts made just like Yale's and Harvard. 00:19:13.078 --> 00:19:16.478 It's like, it's nice to be with other kinds of institutions too. 00:19:16.848 --> 00:19:23.508 Sam Harnett: And I would add, so basically every season is a different university and a different topic and a different format. 00:19:23.988 --> 00:19:37.528 And for us, it's really about finding a topic that will lend itself to sound so that we can do something sonically interesting, doing something that the university is excited about and can use, and you can use. 00:19:37.528 --> 00:19:39.038 And as Chris said, it varies. 00:19:39.048 --> 00:19:51.193 Sometimes it's a university wants to highlight a certain kind of research or a certain kind of idea, and sometimes it's more, you know, they want to have something that students can really listen to and get excited about taking courses. 00:19:51.193 --> 00:20:00.723 There's like a wide range of what the desire is, but the partnership works because the university wants to make something sonically ambitious and interesting and academically rigorous. 00:20:01.053 --> 00:20:08.003 And we think it's an idea that we can do something really interesting in audio with, and that intellectually, there's some depth. 00:20:08.013 --> 00:20:15.153 I mean, the science of metaphor, again, when we first talked with them about that idea, I was like, oh, it's so broad, it's vague, and science, we usually kind of steer away from it. 00:20:15.153 --> 00:20:19.163 But then I realized, oh, metaphor is this thing that people don't usually associate with science. 00:20:19.598 --> 00:20:29.838 And through the history of metaphor and science, we can offer critique of the way science is often portrayed in contemporary culture as something that's like hyper rational and kind of divorced from the humanities. 00:20:29.848 --> 00:20:33.218 So there's like this critical angle that was of interest to both of us. 00:20:33.368 --> 00:20:34.918 I think maybe that's like the third piece. 00:20:35.953 --> 00:20:41.663 You know, so it has to be something that's, we can do something sonically with, something that's intellectually rigorous. 00:20:41.863 --> 00:20:45.093 And I think it is something that there's some element of critique in it. 00:20:45.173 --> 00:20:46.653 Chris and I both find interesting. 00:20:46.953 --> 00:20:52.933 Jennifer-Lee: Is there a topic that you would love for a university to do that you've never done yet? 00:20:52.983 --> 00:20:53.933 Sam Harnett: Oh yeah, there are a bunch. 00:20:53.963 --> 00:20:58.303 There's one like, again, I spent ten years covering tech and labor. 00:20:59.023 --> 00:21:05.568 And I really, there's a couple things in that reporting that I would love to work with the university to do a deep dive series on. 00:21:05.838 --> 00:21:15.978 One is about, is really about the story of economics and like how economics has kind of dominated cultural thought in a very powerful way. 00:21:16.048 --> 00:21:17.388 And I'd like to like trace that. 00:21:17.908 --> 00:21:22.008 Like how econ as a discipline sort of became very homogenous. 00:21:22.018 --> 00:21:28.858 Like there's a very uniform way of thinking across econ departments and how that is like bled out into policy. 00:21:28.858 --> 00:21:30.768 And that's something I would love to do. 00:21:30.798 --> 00:21:32.128 And then just tech and labor. 00:21:32.128 --> 00:21:44.668 Again, there's, I think there's a big story to do there on work and what we think of as labor and looking at the conceptions of technology across time and how technology has been represented in certain ways and has a certain perception in public discourse. 00:21:44.828 --> 00:21:45.458 So there's a two. 00:21:45.478 --> 00:21:46.228 Chris, what about you? 00:21:46.408 --> 00:21:52.328 Chris Hoff: Yeah, actually, I mean, there's a couple, but, uh, we're working on this topic right now that actually is really interesting to me. 00:21:52.728 --> 00:22:00.098 It's really about like the sort of present state of not just humanities, but like of the university of the American university. 00:22:00.118 --> 00:22:10.728 And it's, it sounds like this really broad topic, but really we're sort of interested in like these questions of why it's so expensive now, like all these things that are kind of obvious to a lot of people. 00:22:11.433 --> 00:22:28.913 But, like, the reason for this seems to be that sometime post World War II, after the GI Bill and all these people sort of got access to college education, a bunch of middle class people got into college education, this seemed to be, a real sort of fear for the ruling elites. 00:22:29.273 --> 00:22:42.808 Basically, I was really interested in sort of how the American university has become sort of so profit driven and seemingly corporatized, and how you have this dichotomy of super left leaning faculty, ideas are all very left leaning. 00:22:43.068 --> 00:22:49.428 But you have administrations and real power structures are super right leaning, and that's where the actual power is. 00:22:49.428 --> 00:23:05.743 And so like, this combination of these two things, you have this mess now where you have all these culture wars going on at these universities, and there's this really sort of, to me, this really interesting kind of nexus between these sort of left and right powers kind of battling each other. 00:23:05.743 --> 00:23:11.563 But of course it's all couched in universities are all leftists and Marxists and they should kind of be reigned in. 00:23:11.563 --> 00:23:12.583 But that's just not the truth. 00:23:12.583 --> 00:23:17.173 Like the truth is the power of universities lies in conservative, you know, sort of principles. 00:23:17.173 --> 00:23:19.633 And I just think that's a, I'm just really interested in that. 00:23:19.693 --> 00:23:25.038 Sam Harnett: In a nutshell, the documentary slash podcast is gonna be about the neoliberalization of higher education. 00:23:26.008 --> 00:23:30.178 It's basically why is higher education so focused on profit? 00:23:30.938 --> 00:23:32.358 That's what all students are thinking about. 00:23:32.378 --> 00:23:33.638 How can I make money? 00:23:33.898 --> 00:23:36.228 Universities are, you know, trying to build their endowments. 00:23:36.228 --> 00:23:38.478 Everyone's fighting for professors and grants. 00:23:39.148 --> 00:23:44.468 And, and that's what, again, as Chris was saying, when you think about higher education, it's like, oh yeah, it's a liberal, it's leftist. 00:23:44.468 --> 00:23:45.578 It's always progressive. 00:23:45.868 --> 00:23:53.568 But if you actually look at how higher education operates in America, it has an extreme profit motive that seems to align very much with conservative ideals. 00:23:55.183 --> 00:24:05.633 Yeah, I'm really excited about this podcast project because it's gonna combine a lot of reporting and critique along with sound design stuff that we've been working on. 00:24:06.383 --> 00:24:07.323 Jennifer-Lee: I think it's great. 00:24:07.373 --> 00:24:23.463 I feel like you could dive into so many things on that because I think there's a lot of people talking and things that I've listened to lately or seen on TV is that, a lot of them most successful people don't even go to post-secondary education or they drop out. 00:24:23.783 --> 00:24:27.953 So what are they learning that we aren't learning in school? 00:24:27.953 --> 00:24:32.503 A lot of people are like, oh, I don't even finish this, and they, they go on and like make millions of dollars and stuff. 00:24:32.503 --> 00:24:39.583 Sometimes I feel like education, that's a whole deep rabbit hole to go into, is like, what are you learning and is it appropriate for what you need? 00:24:39.703 --> 00:24:39.973 Chris Hoff: Right? 00:24:39.978 --> 00:24:46.683 People who go to universities feel like they need to make money coming out of it because you're spending fifty thousand dollars a year in tuition or whatever. 00:24:46.978 --> 00:24:51.998 So if you're going to university, you're going to make sure that you have a skill that can earn you money. 00:24:52.008 --> 00:24:56.558 Like, you're not going to study philosophy, you're not going to do linguistics, you're not going to do classics. 00:24:57.048 --> 00:25:00.708 You're going to do business, science, whatever you can make money with, engineering. 00:25:02.028 --> 00:25:05.748 It's like impossible to go study a thing for its own sake. 00:25:05.758 --> 00:25:09.518 Everything is now about the bottom line. 00:25:09.948 --> 00:25:15.978 Yeah, I'm not just going to learn art history and go on my merry way, but that's just, to me, that's the opposite of what a university should be. 00:25:16.353 --> 00:25:25.273 If you want to do the other thing, go to vocational school or, you know, do an apprenticeship, but you go to a university to become like a, a person. 00:25:25.353 --> 00:25:26.703 I don't know, but whatever. 00:25:27.873 --> 00:25:28.173 Neil McPhedran: Wow. 00:25:28.563 --> 00:25:28.913 I love it. 00:25:28.933 --> 00:25:30.553 It's super interesting discussion. 00:25:30.563 --> 00:25:33.223 You guys are really up to some interesting things for sure. 00:25:33.313 --> 00:25:36.833 I do really like back to Jen saying how unique you are. 00:25:36.833 --> 00:25:51.973 I mean, like, obviously your dedication to audio, high production is so unique, but also how you're working with a multiplicity of institutions, some of which are topics led by them. 00:25:52.363 --> 00:26:02.673 Some are topics of interest that the two of you have, and then you're finding the university or academic team to align with, I think is really a really interesting way to think about this. 00:26:03.248 --> 00:26:11.358 I also think that we kind of like quickly glossed over it, but the recognition that what you are creating is evergreen. 00:26:11.358 --> 00:26:20.938 What you're creating isn't just a season and hey, university come along with us for a season and that's gonna be 2023 and we might move on to 2024. 00:26:20.938 --> 00:26:29.468 Each one of these is yes, a season, but it's also a body of work that is there to, you know, explore and come across two years later. 00:26:29.498 --> 00:26:30.138 Sam Harnett: Oh, exactly. 00:26:30.838 --> 00:26:31.908 Yeah, that's exactly right. 00:26:31.908 --> 00:26:42.988 Because the, the cost to make these is so high or requires so much time and effort that it wouldn't be worth it if it was just, you release it, you get the people who are followers to listen then, and then it's over. 00:26:42.998 --> 00:26:48.548 Like the real idea is that these are again, evergreen for years, or, you know, hopefully even longer. 00:26:48.948 --> 00:26:57.308 So the University of Washington was the first season we did, and every episode featured the work of one professor as a kind of entry point into a Way of Knowing in the humanities. 00:26:58.008 --> 00:27:01.368 And we're doing a second season with them because they were so happy with it, which is great. 00:27:01.398 --> 00:27:06.658 And their idea is that they're going to send these episodes to incoming students, hopefully. 00:27:07.063 --> 00:27:14.083 And I think, again, that's like really great of the series with the idea that it would draw more students to take humanities courses. 00:27:14.413 --> 00:27:16.113 And, you know, that could be done for years. 00:27:16.173 --> 00:27:24.223 The science and metaphor show that we just made, we spent a long time on the sound design with the idea that eventually we could turn it into one of our eight channel live shows. 00:27:24.233 --> 00:27:27.673 You know, we could take the sounds, as Jen was talking about, like the sounds of all those gears. 00:27:27.673 --> 00:27:33.623 We could put them on our speaker array, and it could be this sort of immersive sixty minute show about science and metaphor. 00:27:33.883 --> 00:27:37.333 And so that's something that could happen, you know, maybe not next year, but maybe in a couple of years. 00:27:37.553 --> 00:27:40.323 We're working on a series with Cornell about media objects. 00:27:40.363 --> 00:27:44.813 Every episode is a different object around us that influences the way we communicate and think. 00:27:45.133 --> 00:27:47.243 And things that we don't normally think of as media. 00:27:47.253 --> 00:27:50.043 So the first episode is going to be on the push button. 00:27:50.373 --> 00:27:56.903 On how buttons sort of shape the way that we communicate and think, and those are extremely heavily sound design, they're like kind of sonic essays. 00:27:56.933 --> 00:28:02.413 And that's a similar thing that we're thinking about it is like, this is a thing that could have longevity. 00:28:02.463 --> 00:28:13.913 We're making them, those actually, the Cornell series, I would say that the most is like we're doing actually like intellectual work on our end, like we're working with these professors to do a bunch of research, include all this media theory. 00:28:14.253 --> 00:28:18.063 So that the episodes themselves could maybe be something that a professor uses to teach. 00:28:18.083 --> 00:28:30.183 Maybe freshmen media theory students would listen to these episodes that have like references to Kittler and McLuhan, and a bunch of other media theory folks, but in this like sonic way that's very different than how you would digest written material. 00:28:30.423 --> 00:28:34.683 So we're always thinking with each of these projects, it's always different, like what the avenue will be. 00:28:34.683 --> 00:28:36.953 But, you know, this isn't just a podcast. 00:28:36.953 --> 00:28:44.453 It's always like, okay, this is like, we're going to do this concept in audio and make a thing that hopefully will, could be a teaching tool or it could be a way to recruit students. 00:28:44.473 --> 00:28:46.883 It could be turned into a live show. 00:28:46.953 --> 00:28:50.343 We did a museum exhibit a few years ago with some of our audio. 00:28:50.343 --> 00:28:52.063 And that's the thing that we're thinking about maybe doing again. 00:28:52.063 --> 00:28:57.093 So it's like, okay, maybe we'll work with maybe the media objects thing could eventually be some kind of installation someplace. 00:28:57.718 --> 00:29:02.908 And for us, that's the only way that we see a future for us as a business. 00:29:02.998 --> 00:29:07.308 Is basically we need to make content because, you know, we want to make really highly produced content. 00:29:07.378 --> 00:29:13.928 And the only way to get enough money to do that is to make stuff that it's so good that people are excited about it and it has longevity. 00:29:14.463 --> 00:29:16.143 And if it doesn't, then we're kind of cooked. 00:29:16.503 --> 00:29:17.723 And you know, the jury's still out. 00:29:17.723 --> 00:29:21.863 I mean, we've been doing this now full time for what, three years now, Chris, or two and a half. 00:29:22.523 --> 00:29:28.433 We've got funding for another year, year and a half, you know, and hopefully grants will come in. 00:29:28.443 --> 00:29:32.903 Hopefully more money will keep coming in so we can continue to work, but it's a, it's a bit of a gamble. 00:29:33.323 --> 00:29:38.273 But it seemed a better gamble to us than to make the low bar stuff and try to break through. 00:29:38.313 --> 00:29:40.363 Because A, we're not interested in that. 00:29:40.373 --> 00:29:44.073 B, I think often it's kind of harmful to just like pour more content in. 00:29:44.083 --> 00:29:47.883 I think you could end up doing more damage than good in the media world. 00:29:48.213 --> 00:29:51.413 So this seemed like the kind of only path for us. 00:29:51.583 --> 00:29:55.773 Jennifer-Lee: I think you guys are on the right track just because I've seen a lot more. 00:29:56.053 --> 00:30:00.303 I know you're not scripted, but you kind of fall into that scripted podcast with huge productions. 00:30:00.363 --> 00:30:07.113 And I think as people consume content, I hate to say the new way because it is a newer way. 00:30:07.113 --> 00:30:13.233 But then at the same time, a lot of the stuff people are doing is very similar to radio plays and things like that. 00:30:13.243 --> 00:30:17.333 It's just kind of having a resurgence, but in a younger demographic. 00:30:17.333 --> 00:30:23.113 Because they're saying that so many young people now just consume way more audio than they have traditional aspects. 00:30:23.113 --> 00:30:25.333 So I think you guys are cutting edge. 00:30:25.383 --> 00:30:30.033 Neil McPhedran: And it's, there's so much being in the podcast space. 00:30:30.103 --> 00:30:36.323 It's like video, video, video, video, old video, you know, last couple of podcast conferences I've been to. 00:30:36.333 --> 00:30:37.083 It's like video. 00:30:37.143 --> 00:30:38.203 We need to be doing video. 00:30:38.203 --> 00:30:41.908 We talked to our Spotify rep and it's, you got to do video. 00:30:41.908 --> 00:30:44.538 So what you guys are saying is the opposite here. 00:30:45.938 --> 00:30:48.818 It's like, there's something still about audio. 00:30:49.263 --> 00:30:57.963 Back to the beginning of our conversation with Jen talking about that one episode with the wheels turning or whatever, and how that creates a memory. 00:30:58.003 --> 00:31:04.943 I think we're very short sighted to want to try to do video as podcasters, which is hard. 00:31:05.323 --> 00:31:21.733 And instead, hey, maybe we should focus a little bit on the audio format and remember that a lot of people are listening to us while they're driving or while they're walking the dogs or so on, which is how we sort of interact with audio. 00:31:21.773 --> 00:31:25.673 But what you guys are doing is just really awesome. 00:31:26.873 --> 00:31:30.443 Chris Hoff: Yeah, I also think it really depends on really like what your motivation is. 00:31:30.443 --> 00:31:37.923 I think, you know, if your goal is to make money with this stuff, that probably means you're going to need to get advertising for it. 00:31:38.393 --> 00:31:43.458 Um, which probably means that, yeah, video probably actually does make sense because people like watching video. 00:31:43.488 --> 00:31:46.238 But like, our whole model is not that at all. 00:31:46.248 --> 00:31:48.138 Like, we actually don't want advertising. 00:31:48.168 --> 00:31:56.658 And frankly, it's also, for me, I don't really like watching, like, the whole point of an interview show is just two people talking and giving me information. 00:31:56.658 --> 00:31:57.988 I don't really need to see them. 00:31:58.038 --> 00:32:01.048 It's not interesting to me to watch just two people talking. 00:32:01.068 --> 00:32:03.118 Listening actually makes more sense. 00:32:03.648 --> 00:32:09.568 Sam Harnett: And I would say the whole video thing seems very much driven, as Chris said, by ad revenue and also by internet platforms. 00:32:09.568 --> 00:32:12.138 And I got news for you, the internet platforms don't give a shit about you. 00:32:12.148 --> 00:32:16.318 And look at Facebook and Twitter and, like, LinkedIn, like, yeah, or even Spotify. 00:32:16.318 --> 00:32:19.128 They're all, who knows what they're going to be doing in a couple years, you know? 00:32:19.158 --> 00:32:20.478 Will Twitter still exist? 00:32:20.518 --> 00:32:24.288 Will some other person buy it and turn it into their personal megaphone? 00:32:24.738 --> 00:32:33.798 You know, like, you just, I think, uh, making content based on, on the internet companies and internet platforms is a very dangerous, slippery slope. 00:32:34.308 --> 00:32:39.878 And so, yeah, you're gonna invest all the time making video and then a couple of years they'll change the algorithm and they won't care about video anymore and then you're screwed. 00:32:39.878 --> 00:32:44.598 So, and let's remember, you know, millions and millions of people still listen to the radio. 00:32:45.048 --> 00:32:52.818 I mean, we've gotten an interview on Science Friday coming up about the science and metaphor show and several hundred thousand people, if not one or two million people are going to hear that. 00:32:53.038 --> 00:32:58.638 I really actually think, you know, the public radio or the radio audience is not something to be neglected. 00:32:58.918 --> 00:33:05.568 I mean, they're still huge and they are dedicated listeners and they're sort of proof that audio doesn't need video 00:33:05.948 --> 00:33:09.618 Jennifer-Lee: Well audio they say will never die and I truly believe it. 00:33:09.658 --> 00:33:22.258 I think radio, especially here in Canada, it's just changing its vessel going over to podcasts because our radio is seeing a decline, but it doesn't mean that people aren't listening to audio there. 00:33:22.288 --> 00:33:28.388 It's just, we got to keep making great content that people are going to want to listen to. 00:33:28.488 --> 00:33:29.368 That's really it. 00:33:29.408 --> 00:33:33.758 I could get into it with you guys about video podcasts because I, I totally agree. 00:33:34.098 --> 00:33:35.648 I think there's a searchability factor. 00:33:35.648 --> 00:33:36.798 I think you have to be on for that. 00:33:37.258 --> 00:33:45.208 But I think some podcasts don't need video because the video looks like they're recording it in their grandparents basement and I just, I can't deal with it. 00:33:46.828 --> 00:33:47.238 Neil McPhedran: Agreed. 00:33:48.038 --> 00:33:48.458 Well, 00:33:49.208 --> 00:33:52.598 Sam Harnett: We all agree, no video on your podcast. 00:33:54.443 --> 00:33:58.923 Neil McPhedran: Or at least start by being more intentional with your existing audio and your format. 00:33:59.123 --> 00:34:01.143 Jennifer-Lee: Or set up your Zoom screen properly. 00:34:01.143 --> 00:34:02.863 Don't have half your head missing. 00:34:02.913 --> 00:34:03.203 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:34:03.243 --> 00:34:03.793 There you go. 00:34:04.033 --> 00:34:07.353 Anyway, it's so amazing to have both of you on, uh, today. 00:34:07.353 --> 00:34:08.153 Thank you so much. 00:34:08.153 --> 00:34:16.203 And it was really interesting unpacking and hearing more about your journey and looking forward to tuning into more seasons and more episodes ahead. 00:34:16.803 --> 00:34:17.063 Sam Harnett: All right. 00:34:17.063 --> 00:34:17.773 Thanks for having us. 00:34:18.023 --> 00:34:18.233 Chris Hoff: Yeah. 00:34:18.233 --> 00:34:19.213 It's been great being here. 00:34:20.743 --> 00:34:21.803 Neil McPhedran: Well, Jen, that was great. 00:34:22.193 --> 00:34:24.483 Really interesting, uh, conversation. 00:34:24.483 --> 00:34:34.553 And I just love digging into some of the more interesting parts of podcasting from an audio perspective with two incredible audio nerds. 00:34:34.623 --> 00:34:35.733 Jennifer-Lee: I love audio. 00:34:35.733 --> 00:34:40.198 And I think that's the thing that a lot of people don't appreciate enough in podcasting or 00:34:43.238 --> 00:34:43.868 in radio. 00:34:43.868 --> 00:34:52.878 And it's kind of circling back now because I know companies that are doing full productions, but they're all podcasts that are scripted. 00:34:52.878 --> 00:34:55.108 And so they have all these huge soundscapes. 00:34:55.108 --> 00:35:01.298 And yeah, it seems like a lot of work, but it really, when you listen to their podcasts, it makes a difference. 00:35:01.298 --> 00:35:02.708 You feel like you're there. 00:35:02.938 --> 00:35:09.403 Not to say that everyone needs a full soundscape, but I definitely sound leads you into the story. 00:35:10.243 --> 00:35:11.043 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, totally. 00:35:11.393 --> 00:35:14.993 I also really liked their approach. 00:35:15.023 --> 00:35:24.433 I think it's super interesting how they're working with different universities and institutions and faculties for each season. 00:35:24.433 --> 00:35:43.553 And how they're, um, being true to what they're trying to achieve, which is focusing on the humanities using audio as such a key component of it and really leaning into that, but then working with different folks for each season and really just changing it up each season. 00:35:43.553 --> 00:35:47.343 So like their episodes were like eight minutes or something like that. 00:35:47.353 --> 00:35:58.073 Then this season, the first couple of episodes come out or like over an hour, and then they've got these longer form projects, almost like research projects that they're digging into. 00:35:58.133 --> 00:36:16.093 That also really opened up my mind as far as how we can work within this field of higher education and how we could collaborate more on a given season with a given focus of a given topic and think about more of it as evergreen content. 00:36:16.233 --> 00:36:19.173 Jennifer-Lee: Not to always bring it back to radio, but I'm going to. 00:36:20.413 --> 00:36:33.443 The thing that they understand and it goes to the length of the episodes is, you don't always need a long episode and really your content is going to dictate the amount of time that's needed to tell your story. 00:36:33.463 --> 00:36:36.703 If it's eight minutes, if it's an hour, but just be strong. 00:36:36.703 --> 00:36:46.298 And that's the same thing we're always taught when we're in broadcasting is like say it sixty seconds, say it five minutes, but it better be strong, no matter the length that you do it. 00:36:46.308 --> 00:36:48.158 And they, they do an amazing job about it. 00:36:48.388 --> 00:36:53.888 And I think that's the thing that, you know, in podcasting, everyone's trying to figure out is what is the perfect length. 00:36:54.328 --> 00:36:57.918 There is only a perfect length for your content and your content only. 00:36:57.938 --> 00:37:00.098 Some people are better at telling longer stories. 00:37:00.428 --> 00:37:03.188 Some people are better at telling shorter stories. 00:37:03.488 --> 00:37:05.178 It doesn't matter. 00:37:05.208 --> 00:37:06.818 You don't all have to be the same. 00:37:06.908 --> 00:37:10.553 It's whatever stronger for the listener to go on the journey with you. 00:37:10.623 --> 00:37:10.993 Neil McPhedran: Right. 00:37:11.153 --> 00:37:26.968 And the one consistent thing that they're leaning into with Ways of Knowing is using audio and really high production audio, as this vehicle for telling their stories and, and just taking us into this really interesting place. 00:37:26.968 --> 00:37:29.598 So, well, I think that's another episode. 00:37:29.648 --> 00:37:31.528 Jen, why don't you read us out? 00:37:31.798 --> 00:37:36.928 Jennifer-Lee: So thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:37:37.298 --> 00:37:40.348 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:37:40.598 --> 00:37:47.238 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform so you'll never miss an episode. 00:37:47.568 --> 00:37:56.178 But if you found this episode, particularly valuable please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested in a higher education podcast. 00:37:56.588 --> 00:38:05.418 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com where you can connect with other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the field. 00:38:05.788 --> 00:38:07.958 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:38:08.008 --> 00:38:14.378 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations around a higher education podcast. 00:38:14.528 --> 00:38:15.918 See you in the next episode.