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Social to get 00:00:46.820 --> 00:00:49.970 20% off your first three months. 00:00:50.273 --> 00:00:50.813 Hey, Colleen. 00:00:51.423 --> 00:00:52.043 Colleen: Hey, Michelle. 00:00:52.073 --> 00:00:53.123 Good to hear your voice. 00:00:53.803 --> 00:00:54.593 Michele: Yours too. 00:00:55.416 --> 00:01:00.256 I am so excited to hear about what's going on with your projects today. 00:01:00.656 --> 00:01:00.946 Colleen: Whew. 00:01:01.246 --> 00:01:01.626 So much. 00:01:01.966 --> 00:01:04.826 And it has been quite a while since we have talked. 00:01:05.246 --> 00:01:09.306 So I feel like there's so much going on in my business life right now. 00:01:09.766 --> 00:01:12.746 Michele: But first, I feel like I have one thing I need to uh, say. 00:01:13.086 --> 00:01:16.196 So, thank you so much to everybody who gave us feedback on our 00:01:16.396 --> 00:01:18.076 business of the podcast episode. 00:01:18.376 --> 00:01:21.263 Um, I mean, we've been doing a lot of thinking and talking about that. 00:01:21.603 --> 00:01:25.463 We actually, like, you know, it's funny, we talked last week and didn't record it. 00:01:25.963 --> 00:01:26.533 It's possible. 00:01:27.183 --> 00:01:27.843 Colleen: It is true. 00:01:27.903 --> 00:01:28.283 We did 00:01:28.283 --> 00:01:31.453 Michele: Started to feel like we weren't allowed to talk without recording it. 00:01:31.531 --> 00:01:36.591 And so what we decided to do for now, you know, always work in progress, 00:01:36.991 --> 00:01:41.041 selling individual ads for $250 each, there's now a form for it. 00:01:41.041 --> 00:01:44.551 You can just buy them on Stripe to make it more accessible for people to do it. 00:01:44.551 --> 00:01:46.391 So you don't have to buy a month or two months at a time. 00:01:46.848 --> 00:01:52.397 And then also doing sponsored episodes for basically when people pitch us guests. 00:01:53.017 --> 00:01:55.997 And then if it's somebody we're interested in having, we'll tell them about that. 00:01:56.404 --> 00:02:00.344 We'll still do invited guests occasionally, but basically just 00:02:00.344 --> 00:02:03.210 what, like it was before, like when one of us is traveling or something. 00:02:03.269 --> 00:02:08.379 But on that episode, so we talked a little bit about how seeing the 00:02:08.509 --> 00:02:13.101 success the No More Mondays guys were having with selling ads kind of 00:02:13.621 --> 00:02:16.928 inspired this and made us think that we were undervaluing the podcast. 00:02:17.816 --> 00:02:20.898 And it turns out I got a little bit of that story wrong. 00:02:20.958 --> 00:02:25.418 So it turns out they didn't actually sell any for, I believe it was 600 pounds. 00:02:25.918 --> 00:02:27.448 That was just the highest price. 00:02:27.518 --> 00:02:31.448 They, they did like a, like an auction style thing where they kept raising the 00:02:31.448 --> 00:02:33.008 price until people stopped buying them. 00:02:33.508 --> 00:02:35.958 And apparently that's the point where if people stopped buying some, 00:02:35.958 --> 00:02:41.213 so nobody actually bought them for $600, but they were selling them 00:02:41.213 --> 00:02:42.333 for that price, if that makes sense. 00:02:42.432 --> 00:02:46.842 And so that error is on me for not getting all of those details up front. 00:02:46.863 --> 00:02:49.852 And I feel bad about messing that up. 00:02:50.249 --> 00:02:54.859 Yeah, so that's where we're at on all of that stuff. 00:02:55.262 --> 00:02:59.282 But, I feel like it's been forever since we have heard about Colleen's projects. 00:02:59.687 --> 00:03:00.667 Colleen: It has been a while 00:03:00.797 --> 00:03:01.907 since we've talked about it. 00:03:02.354 --> 00:03:02.644 Okay. 00:03:03.214 --> 00:03:05.084 Let's see where to start. 00:03:06.024 --> 00:03:11.004 So since we've last spoken, things have really picked up for Hammer stone. 00:03:11.464 --> 00:03:14.924 So for new listeners or for people who have forgotten, cause it's 00:03:14.924 --> 00:03:18.284 been a few months since I've talked about my side projects, I have two. 00:03:18.874 --> 00:03:21.084 I've Simple File upload, which is a file uploader. 00:03:21.824 --> 00:03:26.754 And with two other co-founders I have a company called Hammer stone and we are 00:03:27.474 --> 00:03:30.104 building development tools for developers. 00:03:30.604 --> 00:03:33.584 And so things are really picking up with Hammer stone, 00:03:33.584 --> 00:03:34.984 which has been really exciting. 00:03:35.484 --> 00:03:39.434 Aaron, one of my co-founders who's the laravel guy gave a talk at Laracon 00:03:39.974 --> 00:03:42.114 and it went really, really well. 00:03:42.254 --> 00:03:43.114 Michele: It was so good. 00:03:43.364 --> 00:03:43.714 Colleen: Right. 00:03:44.034 --> 00:03:46.554 Everyone is like so excited about his Laracon 00:03:46.574 --> 00:03:49.207 Michele: We were watching it while we were making dinner. 00:03:49.307 --> 00:03:50.967 So like the whole family was watching it. 00:03:50.967 --> 00:03:52.127 We had it up on the iPad. 00:03:53.067 --> 00:03:55.007 And Sophie if he was like, this guy's really good. 00:03:55.507 --> 00:03:57.117 Colleen: Yeah, it went really well. 00:03:57.377 --> 00:04:01.995 And, I also have a podcast with them about that business and on it, I 00:04:01.995 --> 00:04:05.715 asked Aaron how long he spent on that talk, and he estimated like 80 hours. 00:04:06.065 --> 00:04:08.365 So yeah, I believe that is correct. 00:04:08.465 --> 00:04:11.805 Now I wanna go back and check, but it was some absurd amount of time, 00:04:12.095 --> 00:04:15.525 which just shows the amount of work that goes into giving such an 00:04:15.525 --> 00:04:17.865 amazing presentation, as he did. 00:04:18.365 --> 00:04:20.105 And that's, that was really exciting. 00:04:20.165 --> 00:04:24.465 So we have a list of hundreds of people that are interested, and 00:04:25.365 --> 00:04:29.855 we are working on finishing up the front end for the laravel component. 00:04:29.915 --> 00:04:32.095 So what this is is our first component as a query builder. 00:04:32.595 --> 00:04:36.775 So, it's a drop in component, where you can configure the backend 00:04:36.875 --> 00:04:40.615 to show your users, whatever you want to allow them to query on. 00:04:40.955 --> 00:04:42.095 And it builds up the sequel. 00:04:42.475 --> 00:04:46.511 It allows you to, you know, plug in play different portions of the query. 00:04:46.958 --> 00:04:48.008 It's really powerful. 00:04:48.188 --> 00:04:51.128 And, it's really mature because Erin has been using a version 00:04:51.128 --> 00:04:53.078 of this in production for years. 00:04:53.578 --> 00:04:57.358 So we have a really long list of people interested, but we 00:04:57.358 --> 00:04:58.518 are launching this product. 00:04:59.018 --> 00:05:00.558 As I said, it's gonna be very mature. 00:05:00.558 --> 00:05:03.518 Like we're launching it with three different front ends. 00:05:04.018 --> 00:05:06.838 So there's no MVP version of this product. 00:05:06.928 --> 00:05:10.678 There is like fully functional, everything is taken care of 00:05:10.678 --> 00:05:13.998 version of this product, which is different than what most people do. 00:05:14.498 --> 00:05:18.718 And so that has been interesting because there's a lot that we're 00:05:18.718 --> 00:05:21.598 still trying to finish before we can launch and that's on the laravel side. 00:05:21.598 --> 00:05:22.558 So I'm a rails developer. 00:05:22.558 --> 00:05:28.438 So on the rail side, I have been working, I work for a client on this 00:05:28.438 --> 00:05:29.918 project, but we're keeping the IP. 00:05:30.018 --> 00:05:35.188 So, it's just been like crazy busy recently, but I have been deliberately 00:05:35.288 --> 00:05:38.838 trying to do a little more marketing. 00:05:38.878 --> 00:05:40.918 I shouldn't even say marketing cause I'm not doing marketing, but 00:05:40.918 --> 00:05:44.758 like deliberately trying to get the word out there about this product. 00:05:44.978 --> 00:05:47.718 So I'm speaking at Sin City Ruby next week. 00:05:47.908 --> 00:05:50.598 I'll be down in Vegas, speaking at a conference there. 00:05:50.778 --> 00:05:55.078 And so my talk is gonna be about a arel, which is what our, it's like 00:05:55.078 --> 00:05:58.228 it private API and rails, but it's what our query builder on. 00:05:58.574 --> 00:06:02.334 So stuff like that, I'm trying to do to kind of like mentally shift 00:06:02.834 --> 00:06:06.234 people to start thinking about like, what could this product be like? 00:06:06.234 --> 00:06:07.234 What's it gonna be like? 00:06:08.054 --> 00:06:08.949 And that kinda stuff. 00:06:09.449 --> 00:06:10.329 Michele: That's pretty exciting. 00:06:10.829 --> 00:06:11.209 Colleen: It is. 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:14.942 It's, I think something we've talked about before, it's gonna be interesting 00:06:14.962 --> 00:06:19.622 to try to sell this product because the rails ecosystem system is just more mature 00:06:20.212 --> 00:06:22.222 than not, I don't know if that's fair. 00:06:22.242 --> 00:06:25.342 But like, like I joked with Aaron, but it wasn't a joke. 00:06:25.342 --> 00:06:29.262 If you go on the Laracon website, everyone just for funsies, go on the 00:06:29.262 --> 00:06:34.362 Laracon website, then go the rails website and like the differences in those 00:06:34.362 --> 00:06:38.482 websites, Laracon is like cool and hip and they have animations and graphics. 00:06:38.972 --> 00:06:42.519 Rails conf looks like, you know, someone didn't really, they, they 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:45.239 took a WordPress theme, and they just like threw some stuff into it. 00:06:45.539 --> 00:06:48.159 Not because, and, and I know it's so bad. 00:06:48.409 --> 00:06:49.889 Michele: Bringing the heat today. 00:06:50.169 --> 00:06:50.969 I was, I was nervous. 00:06:51.129 --> 00:06:52.249 I was like, where is she going with this? 00:06:52.249 --> 00:06:53.929 And is it going to be a Laravel insult? 00:06:53.929 --> 00:06:57.409 Because if so, girl, I love you, but we're not doing that. 00:06:57.909 --> 00:07:00.929 Colleen: So, I just think that rails, I love it. 00:07:01.129 --> 00:07:05.889 I love everything about it, but we don't have that like cool hip vibe anymore. 00:07:05.899 --> 00:07:06.249 Right. 00:07:06.389 --> 00:07:07.609 So rail's been around for quite 00:07:07.689 --> 00:07:09.209 Michele: kind of got the like drama vibe. 00:07:09.389 --> 00:07:09.609 I'm 00:07:09.679 --> 00:07:10.219 Colleen: Oh gosh. 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:12.899 Do we have the drama vibe ever right now, Michelle? 00:07:13.089 --> 00:07:13.379 Geez. 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.139 So I think it'll be interesting, like it just from our interactions with 00:07:17.139 --> 00:07:21.019 developers, it seems like the Laravel L developers are all like, really excited. 00:07:21.019 --> 00:07:22.659 They're like rails 10 years ago. 00:07:23.119 --> 00:07:26.519 And the rails developers are tech tend to work on more mature products. 00:07:26.529 --> 00:07:30.339 They have just like bigger teams and this is not true across the board, 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:32.059 but it will just be interesting. 00:07:32.339 --> 00:07:34.889 I feel like if the sales cycle's gonna be a little bit longer, it's 00:07:34.889 --> 00:07:36.009 gonna be a longer sales cycle. 00:07:36.891 --> 00:07:40.241 Truly communicating to people what this thing does and how powerful it 00:07:40.241 --> 00:07:43.321 is, is gonna really be a challenge and a really important one. 00:07:43.821 --> 00:07:45.281 So that's something I've started to think about. 00:07:45.814 --> 00:07:50.164 Michele: It's really interesting because from the interview you did with Nate a 00:07:50.164 --> 00:07:53.174 couple of weeks ago, he was talking about sort of like this almost like history 00:07:53.184 --> 00:07:59.604 of rails, and how it has evolved into being a more, I don't know the word I'm 00:07:59.604 --> 00:08:02.844 looking for here is, but like, you know a, a word that like people use at scale. 00:08:03.054 --> 00:08:03.404 Right. 00:08:03.767 --> 00:08:08.651 And, that now it's that like rails is the language of sort of like stodgy 00:08:08.651 --> 00:08:10.811 or older products and websites. 00:08:11.231 --> 00:08:13.521 And like the Laravel ones are the cool ones. 00:08:13.521 --> 00:08:17.231 And it's like, but like, wait, PHP is the cool kid on this block. 00:08:17.461 --> 00:08:20.282 Like, that's just really interesting. 00:08:20.449 --> 00:08:22.929 Just looking at like the perspective of that dynamic. 00:08:23.329 --> 00:08:28.429 I think if you told someone that 10 years ago, they would be very surprised. 00:08:28.929 --> 00:08:29.809 Colleen: I totally agree. 00:08:29.829 --> 00:08:32.409 And it's interesting too, because PHP is way worse than Ruby. 00:08:32.719 --> 00:08:33.449 Like Ruby is 00:08:33.479 --> 00:08:33.699 Michele: Hey. 00:08:34.119 --> 00:08:34.339 Hey. 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:34.899 Hey. 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:35.259 Hey. 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:35.739 Hey. 00:08:36.649 --> 00:08:37.179 Hold on. 00:08:38.529 --> 00:08:41.899 This is not, this is not a debate we're having on this podcast. 00:08:42.129 --> 00:08:46.876 Look, we are, whatever you wanna use is fine, but thou shall not insult 00:08:46.906 --> 00:08:49.036 Laravel on this podcast or PHP. 00:08:49.446 --> 00:08:50.580 Colleen: It is really interesting. 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:52.980 How, and, and I feel like I've been talking about this a lot 00:08:53.220 --> 00:08:54.620 recently with the drama with DHH. 00:08:54.860 --> 00:08:57.420 A lot of people have been coming to me and talking to me about 00:08:57.420 --> 00:08:59.140 like, what's the future of rails. 00:08:59.140 --> 00:09:02.960 And Aaron said something once he said, do you know any rails developers under 35? 00:09:03.210 --> 00:09:03.790 And I was like, 00:09:04.726 --> 00:09:06.546 Michele: Oh, wow. 00:09:08.146 --> 00:09:09.126 Colleen: But, but I don't. 00:09:09.556 --> 00:09:10.406 Like, I don't. 00:09:10.906 --> 00:09:13.966 Do you know any rails developers under 30, please send me a Twitter message 00:09:13.986 --> 00:09:15.446 if you're a rails developer under 30. 00:09:15.756 --> 00:09:16.046 Okay. 00:09:16.066 --> 00:09:17.626 Michele: I can't, I can't think of anyone either. 00:09:18.266 --> 00:09:19.166 Colleen: Not that age matters. 00:09:19.326 --> 00:09:20.446 I don't like to use the term 00:09:20.791 --> 00:09:21.141 Michele: Right. 00:09:21.141 --> 00:09:23.361 But it's like, what what are the people who are coming up? 00:09:23.391 --> 00:09:24.111 What are they learning? 00:09:24.111 --> 00:09:24.791 What are they using? 00:09:24.791 --> 00:09:28.931 What are they I mean, it's also like something JavaScript too, quite frankly. 00:09:29.231 --> 00:09:32.231 Colleen: Well, that's what I, so I don't do these mentorship calls anymore, 00:09:32.231 --> 00:09:35.728 but I used to do a lot of mentorship calls, and I still believe, like 00:09:35.728 --> 00:09:39.328 if you wanna get a job quickly, like JavaScript is your path these days. 00:09:39.708 --> 00:09:41.318 Michele: Yeah, I would I would say I've seen that too. 00:09:41.788 --> 00:09:42.078 Okay. 00:09:42.078 --> 00:09:43.758 Wait on before we got into like 00:09:43.858 --> 00:09:44.768 Colleen: We're so off topic. 00:09:45.298 --> 00:09:46.128 We're so off topic. 00:09:46.128 --> 00:09:46.838 We're wait, wait, wait. 00:09:47.088 --> 00:09:47.718 Let's back up. 00:09:49.295 --> 00:09:53.705 Michele: Wait, we were talking about Hammer stone and the three 00:09:53.705 --> 00:09:55.105 different front ends it has. 00:09:55.485 --> 00:09:59.345 And, oh, you were talking about how you were doing marketing, but 00:09:59.345 --> 00:10:00.665 you didn't wanna call it marketing. 00:10:01.165 --> 00:10:02.545 But you were doing marketing. 00:10:02.935 --> 00:10:03.285 Colleen: Right. 00:10:03.285 --> 00:10:05.605 So here's something that has been an interesting challenge for me. 00:10:05.685 --> 00:10:10.248 I have two projects and I love them both, but for a long time, 00:10:10.508 --> 00:10:13.808 it, but it's hard, like a public persona, it's hard to be both. 00:10:14.548 --> 00:10:19.418 So, people think of me as like Colleen of Simple File Upload, which 00:10:19.418 --> 00:10:21.018 is how I want them to think of me. 00:10:21.238 --> 00:10:26.341 But I would also like to think of me as like Colleen of Hammer stone, and I 00:10:26.351 --> 00:10:29.661 don't know how to be both of those things. 00:10:30.001 --> 00:10:33.633 So just this as it is a little like side experiment just last 00:10:33.633 --> 00:10:36.273 month I did all Hammer stone stuff. 00:10:36.353 --> 00:10:37.913 I only tweeted about Hammer stone. 00:10:38.633 --> 00:10:41.393 I wrote this talk, which is super Hammer stone specific. 00:10:41.753 --> 00:10:45.793 I submitted talks to rails conf that are all super Hammer stone specific. 00:10:45.813 --> 00:10:48.393 So I went like all in Hammer stone this last month to 00:10:48.393 --> 00:10:50.106 just see what that felt like. 00:10:50.606 --> 00:10:52.209 And I think that was good. 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.219 But I want to be able to do both. 00:10:55.623 --> 00:10:58.463 And, I don't know if I I'm a little worried. 00:10:58.663 --> 00:11:03.416 I'm just worried that splitting my focus is going to cause nothing, 00:11:03.846 --> 00:11:07.616 nothing will be successful if I don't go all in on something. 00:11:08.116 --> 00:11:11.216 But then, I know people who have lots of side projects that are successful too, 00:11:11.316 --> 00:11:14.896 so maybe I'm overthinking it, but I've been kind of like consi, like trying 00:11:14.896 --> 00:11:16.686 to be very deliberate in like tweeting. 00:11:16.726 --> 00:11:20.246 I haven't tweeted a lot, but like very deliberate in my public persona. 00:11:20.426 --> 00:11:21.766 So I've been tweeting about it. 00:11:21.916 --> 00:11:25.606 I've been having calls with rails developers, to, you know, customer 00:11:25.606 --> 00:11:28.496 interviews essentially to find out where they stand, and what their pain 00:11:28.496 --> 00:11:30.216 points are and all that kind of stuff. 00:11:30.716 --> 00:11:34.126 Michele: Well, I mean, it basically sounds like Hammer stone is now your 00:11:34.126 --> 00:11:39.046 full-time job, and you have Simple File Upload as your side project. 00:11:39.506 --> 00:11:42.966 And the difference there is that usually when people have a full-time job and a 00:11:42.966 --> 00:11:45.918 side project, it's usually like they're an employee of something, like not 00:11:45.918 --> 00:11:47.518 something that they're a founder of. 00:11:47.738 --> 00:11:51.498 And, like, oftentimes I feel like side projects, like emotionally come out of a 00:11:51.498 --> 00:11:55.875 place of like, feeling under challenged in your day job, but still liking your day 00:11:55.875 --> 00:11:59.515 job, but like wanting to have a place to explore and like a playground and learn 00:11:59.515 --> 00:12:05.825 things and like, I don't see that as you know, I see that as a coherent identity. 00:12:06.505 --> 00:12:09.265 I think for you, the difference is that you're excited, really 00:12:09.265 --> 00:12:10.825 excited about both of those things. 00:12:11.005 --> 00:12:14.225 And it's like, where do you split your enthusiasm? 00:12:14.365 --> 00:12:19.875 But also like both of them are so early stage that for you to, to try to decide, 00:12:19.905 --> 00:12:24.545 okay, which one of these is the thing I wanna be doing two years from now, or 00:12:24.545 --> 00:12:27.105 five years from now, which, you know, most people who have a side project 00:12:27.165 --> 00:12:30.475 and work fulltime, that's a pretty common thing is like, okay, like, do I 00:12:30.475 --> 00:12:31.635 wanna go full time on my side project? 00:12:31.665 --> 00:12:32.945 How do I go full time on it sooner? 00:12:33.165 --> 00:12:37.505 Or like, no, do I really just, you know, be patient and you know, 00:12:37.705 --> 00:12:40.585 this, the, the full-time job and the health insurance, like, I need that. 00:12:40.605 --> 00:12:43.985 And this is just my playpen on the side, but like, you're really 00:12:43.985 --> 00:12:45.585 excited about both of them. 00:12:46.085 --> 00:12:49.065 And you're also the like leader of both of them. 00:12:49.565 --> 00:12:54.275 And like, I could see how that creates this, you feel like you're supposed 00:12:54.275 --> 00:12:56.665 to have conflict between them. 00:12:57.325 --> 00:13:02.305 And I think you are not Colleen of Simple File Upload or Colleen of Hammer stone. 00:13:02.605 --> 00:13:07.085 You are Colleen of Hammer stone and Simple File Upload. 00:13:07.375 --> 00:13:07.725 Right. 00:13:07.882 --> 00:13:12.568 We're talking about you as if you're some like British uh, Pier or something 00:13:12.568 --> 00:13:17.928 that is Colleen of Susic and Whims, or I'm sorry, the British listeners that's 00:13:18.098 --> 00:13:21.478 Whims bury is pro probably not a real place, but you know, it's like, you are 00:13:21.498 --> 00:13:24.558 of both places, strongly and proudly. 00:13:24.858 --> 00:13:27.308 Colleen: Yeah, and I really want to do both. 00:13:27.448 --> 00:13:31.348 So a couple things I learned on that month I spent this was last month. 00:13:31.348 --> 00:13:36.108 What this February-ish I spent just doing Hammer stone, one really cool thing. 00:13:36.188 --> 00:13:38.708 I mean, I did customer support for SImple File Upload, but I don't 00:13:38.708 --> 00:13:42.907 get a lot of request because the product is so awesome by the way. 00:13:42.907 --> 00:13:44.189 If anyone needs file up uploader. 00:13:45.967 --> 00:13:52.173 The cool thing about SAS is you can not work on it for a month and it still works. 00:13:52.472 --> 00:13:53.132 That's fun. 00:13:53.666 --> 00:13:55.766 Michele: You can't like not work on it for like six months and then 00:13:55.951 --> 00:13:56.731 Colleen: no, no, but I'm 00:13:56.756 --> 00:13:58.206 Michele: there's a limit to yeah. 00:13:58.241 --> 00:13:59.741 Colleen: Here's what I noticed about this. 00:13:59.841 --> 00:14:01.181 So this was like an experiment. 00:14:01.181 --> 00:14:05.621 And the reason I did this experiment was cuz I felt like my, my heart wasn't 00:14:05.621 --> 00:14:09.021 super into the Hammer stone product and I couldn't quite figure out why. 00:14:09.641 --> 00:14:09.861 And. 00:14:10.361 --> 00:14:13.361 I think the reason my heart wasn't really into it was cuz I hadn't 00:14:13.361 --> 00:14:15.121 really fully immersed myself in it. 00:14:15.501 --> 00:14:19.481 And so that month I spent last month I spent just like fully immersed in it. 00:14:19.781 --> 00:14:22.761 My whole self is now in, oh my gosh, I sound so cheesy. 00:14:23.221 --> 00:14:27.041 But like my whole self is like now in Hammer stone, like I am all in. 00:14:27.201 --> 00:14:31.411 I am super pumped, and think I wasn't before cuz we were, I was such in 00:14:31.411 --> 00:14:35.784 that grind stage because it's a ton of work, and when I wasn't talking 00:14:35.844 --> 00:14:39.774 to people like developers who might buy it, I couldn't see the end goal. 00:14:39.954 --> 00:14:44.614 And so spending a month doing the grind work still, but also talking 00:14:44.754 --> 00:14:48.574 to people and interacting with people really got me excited about it. 00:14:48.777 --> 00:14:52.564 But what I noticed about this is I missed working on Simple File Upload. 00:14:52.764 --> 00:14:54.484 I love working on SImple File Upload. 00:14:54.484 --> 00:14:55.004 I love it. 00:14:55.004 --> 00:14:56.324 It's got a tight feedback loop. 00:14:56.724 --> 00:14:58.244 I am an expert in that. 00:14:58.434 --> 00:15:01.004 Like I'm really not yet, I'm not a sequel expert yet. 00:15:01.034 --> 00:15:01.324 Okay. 00:15:01.474 --> 00:15:02.534 Hammer stone is a sequel. 00:15:02.634 --> 00:15:06.839 We write sequel for you is basically what it does, whereas file uploading, 00:15:06.899 --> 00:15:07.959 I'm a freaking expert at that. 00:15:07.979 --> 00:15:09.959 So I can move really, really quickly. 00:15:10.119 --> 00:15:12.959 I can get into a flow state on that project really, really quickly. 00:15:13.619 --> 00:15:15.039 So I love working on it. 00:15:15.177 --> 00:15:19.437 But it was nice to know that like if I spend a month not improving the product 00:15:19.497 --> 00:15:23.130 and just letting it ride, answering emails, everything is still good. 00:15:23.630 --> 00:15:28.110 Michele: So a couple months ago, we had talked about like your work life 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:30.750 balance, work, work, life balance. 00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:32.040 However we wanna call this. 00:15:32.040 --> 00:15:32.240 Right. 00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:36.213 And like you were saying that you were ready to push again, like for a long 00:15:36.213 --> 00:15:40.073 time, like you had not like, or I don't know for a long time you had really 00:15:40.073 --> 00:15:43.193 healthy boundaries, and you were ready to not have healthy boundaries again. 00:15:44.083 --> 00:15:44.503 Colleen: That's. 00:15:44.503 --> 00:15:44.663 So. 00:15:44.773 --> 00:15:46.553 Michele: But like, you, you know, you didn't work at night, 00:15:46.553 --> 00:15:47.789 you didn't work on weekends. 00:15:48.048 --> 00:15:53.048 I've always respected how like healthy your work boundaries are and how 00:15:53.048 --> 00:15:57.708 you prioritize your personal health and your family life above work, 00:15:57.708 --> 00:15:59.561 which I think is really commendable. 00:15:59.628 --> 00:16:02.793 And it's something I don't do or used to not do. 00:16:02.793 --> 00:16:04.033 And now I'm trying to do it better, whatever. 00:16:04.033 --> 00:16:04.313 Okay. 00:16:04.513 --> 00:16:05.323 Whole nother topic. 00:16:05.423 --> 00:16:05.843 but like 00:16:06.023 --> 00:16:06.183 Colleen: hours. 00:16:07.133 --> 00:16:09.363 Michele: which is actually better, by the way people have asked me about the 00:16:09.363 --> 00:16:10.483 burnout stuff I'm actually doing better. 00:16:10.493 --> 00:16:11.523 We'll do an episode on it. 00:16:11.603 --> 00:16:11.843 I just, 00:16:12.034 --> 00:16:12.324 Colleen: Good. 00:16:12.523 --> 00:16:13.943 Michele: We haven't been talking so much lately. 00:16:13.943 --> 00:16:15.143 We've had so many guests on it. 00:16:15.143 --> 00:16:15.743 Like haven't talked to you. 00:16:15.743 --> 00:16:19.811 I, okay, so you were saying you were ready to push again, and I'm 00:16:19.811 --> 00:16:23.171 wondering, it can be really valuable to have that time during the day when 00:16:23.171 --> 00:16:27.051 you've said, okay, like my daytime is devoted to Hammer stone, and I 00:16:27.051 --> 00:16:28.091 don't have anything to do right now. 00:16:28.111 --> 00:16:30.051 Let me go, like figure out some marketing thing. 00:16:30.051 --> 00:16:33.811 Let me go interview somebody like having that space where you don't 00:16:33.811 --> 00:16:36.711 necessarily have a task in front of you. 00:16:37.331 --> 00:16:40.991 And instead of switching over to Simplify Upload, because you're 00:16:40.991 --> 00:16:42.111 like, oh, I could just do this thing. 00:16:42.131 --> 00:16:43.031 And like, it's really easy. 00:16:43.111 --> 00:16:47.988 Instead finding something else to work on Hammer stone, like I wonder if at 00:16:48.028 --> 00:16:53.808 a point now where you could do Hammer stone, you know, six, eight hours a day. 00:16:54.011 --> 00:16:56.951 And then Simple File Upload is just an evening project. 00:16:57.341 --> 00:16:58.981 Colleen: I think it depends on what I want. 00:16:59.481 --> 00:17:03.281 I feel like Simplify Upload has so much potential. 00:17:03.781 --> 00:17:08.201 And so for me, I'm not ready to do that yet, but I think what you say is very 00:17:08.211 --> 00:17:12.041 valid in that when you're focused is aligned, you know, six to eight hours 00:17:12.081 --> 00:17:14.351 a day with one task, one project. 00:17:14.541 --> 00:17:20.321 That's good because it helps move it forward, but I, I'm not ready to reg 00:17:21.001 --> 00:17:25.641 relegate Simplify Upload to like just two hours a night, three times a week. 00:17:25.641 --> 00:17:27.641 There's still so many things I wanna do on it. 00:17:27.701 --> 00:17:29.471 And I just feel like it is so much potential. 00:17:29.571 --> 00:17:34.891 So what I'm trying to do, the way it's worked with Hammer stone is because we're 00:17:34.891 --> 00:17:38.371 doing client work, so basically like I have my client, which is my full-time job. 00:17:38.671 --> 00:17:41.875 Then I have, but it's also kind of Hammer stoney stuff, and 00:17:41.875 --> 00:17:42.955 then I have Simplify Upload. 00:17:43.505 --> 00:17:47.468 Michele: So with Hammer stone, I remember you saying you guys are funded for, is 00:17:47.468 --> 00:17:50.381 it a year by this client until August? 00:17:50.681 --> 00:17:50.901 Colleen: Yes. 00:17:51.111 --> 00:17:55.666 Michele: So you kind of have a, I think there's the existential question of like 00:17:55.666 --> 00:17:59.996 what you want to work on in the future, and what's important to you and all of 00:17:59.996 --> 00:18:05.266 that, but there's also this sort of like very real financial deadline coming up 00:18:05.366 --> 00:18:13.510 of like what happens in August when this client project for Hammer stone ends. 00:18:14.010 --> 00:18:15.820 What are you gonna do that? 00:18:15.820 --> 00:18:19.219 Like, there's also like a pressure to like start selling this thing too. 00:18:19.523 --> 00:18:19.743 Colleen: Yes. 00:18:19.923 --> 00:18:22.053 And I think, you know, it's tricky. 00:18:22.213 --> 00:18:23.613 I mean, it's tricky because yes. 00:18:23.633 --> 00:18:26.893 So I, I, we have until August and what I want to do, let's 00:18:26.893 --> 00:18:28.293 say I was independently wealthy. 00:18:28.513 --> 00:18:32.753 I'm not, but if I was what I'd want to do was in August, just 00:18:32.957 --> 00:18:36.247 work on Hammer stone and Simplify Upload and not to any client work. 00:18:36.247 --> 00:18:39.207 Cause the client work, it's building the Hammer stone component, but 00:18:39.207 --> 00:18:42.327 it's also like tightly grading with the client, it's consulting. 00:18:42.540 --> 00:18:47.840 So a lot of the work I do for them or a decent amount isn't Hammer 00:18:48.010 --> 00:18:50.640 stone specific, it's client specific. 00:18:51.300 --> 00:18:54.990 So what I'd like to do is have just be able to do my own side projects. 00:18:55.010 --> 00:18:56.310 Can I afford to do that? 00:18:56.690 --> 00:19:00.780 That's the problem we don't know because we're not selling that 00:19:00.780 --> 00:19:04.340 many licenses yet cuz we aren't done with all of our front ends. 00:19:04.840 --> 00:19:07.050 So that's the conflict I think. 00:19:07.270 --> 00:19:10.730 And then, you know, I have three co-founders and we're all very close 00:19:10.830 --> 00:19:13.610 and we have a good relationship, but they both have full-time jobs. 00:19:14.520 --> 00:19:15.520 Both of my co-founders. 00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:20.190 And so they're, and when I've talked to them about this, so this isn't the 00:19:20.190 --> 00:19:23.460 first time anyone's hearing this, but it's important for the three of us to 00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:27.420 be on the same page in terms of like the speed at which we wanna move. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:32.860 Michele: And I guess you are uniquely exposed if you are the only one who is 00:19:33.095 --> 00:19:33.295 Colleen: am. 00:19:33.795 --> 00:19:35.125 Michele: working on this full time. 00:19:35.185 --> 00:19:39.455 But like, if I was in this situation, first of all, I would be freaking out. 00:19:39.675 --> 00:19:41.015 Second of all, like 00:19:42.885 --> 00:19:43.305 , Colleen: Thanks. 00:19:43.575 --> 00:19:43.655 Michele: just, 00:19:43.795 --> 00:19:43.945 Colleen: Babe 00:19:44.315 --> 00:19:45.615 Michele: you're than I am. 00:19:45.715 --> 00:19:47.735 You are like, you are so much calmer than I am. 00:19:47.805 --> 00:19:48.095 Dude. 00:19:48.375 --> 00:19:51.995 I went to Ikea today, and I tried to pick out three cabinets for our 00:19:51.995 --> 00:19:55.035 new shed quarter, and I was like completely overwhelmed, like, okay. 00:19:55.775 --> 00:19:56.675 So yeah. 00:19:57.304 --> 00:19:58.464 I just like, okay. 00:19:58.474 --> 00:20:00.624 We're in March right now. 00:20:00.884 --> 00:20:01.664 The middle of March. 00:20:02.129 --> 00:20:02.419 Colleen: Yeah. 00:20:02.734 --> 00:20:06.394 Michele: The funding for Hammer stone for you for this client runs 00:20:06.454 --> 00:20:09.224 out, is it August 1st or August 00:20:09.524 --> 00:20:10.984 Colleen: Mid August I it's, I don't 00:20:11.004 --> 00:20:12.304 Michele: August 15th. 00:20:12.454 --> 00:20:12.744 Okay. 00:20:13.524 --> 00:20:15.104 So, and we are in the middle of March. 00:20:15.284 --> 00:20:19.695 So then you basically have five months left. 00:20:20.195 --> 00:20:20.485 Colleen: Yeah. 00:20:21.025 --> 00:20:24.805 Michele: To get this thing to a point where to prevent you from 00:20:24.805 --> 00:20:30.275 having to go back to other client work or whatever that may be to 00:20:30.295 --> 00:20:34.915 get this to the point where it could sustain you working on it full time. 00:20:35.415 --> 00:20:39.345 That's not a lot of time to get to that point. 00:20:39.645 --> 00:20:45.545 And so if this was me, I would be putting all of my eggs in that basket right now. 00:20:45.685 --> 00:20:49.429 And just saying like, you know what, Simplify Up is awesome, thousand dollars 00:20:49.629 --> 00:20:53.789 a month coming in that you can basically rely on at this point, like the people 00:20:53.789 --> 00:20:56.149 who are using it are happy with it. 00:20:56.429 --> 00:21:01.109 That's personally what I would do, because I feel like the goal here is 00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:05.392 not like, figure out which product you wanna do, the decision here is not, which 00:21:05.392 --> 00:21:09.432 product do you work on or which one is your heart, the most in the goal here 00:21:09.432 --> 00:21:14.062 is really not have to go back to more client work or get another whole time job. 00:21:14.382 --> 00:21:14.782 I feel like. 00:21:15.102 --> 00:21:15.742 Colleen: I agree with that. 00:21:16.032 --> 00:21:16.872 That is interesting. 00:21:16.972 --> 00:21:18.378 And, I, I hear what you're saying. 00:21:18.581 --> 00:21:18.861 I do. 00:21:19.111 --> 00:21:19.217 Hmm. 00:21:19.217 --> 00:21:19.760 I mean, but 00:21:20.115 --> 00:21:20.355 Michele: Interesting. 00:21:20.625 --> 00:21:22.525 It's not like you're very surprised by that. 00:21:22.970 --> 00:21:23.810 Colleen: I am surprised. 00:21:23.850 --> 00:21:25.250 I think I'm surprised for two reasons. 00:21:25.310 --> 00:21:29.270 One, so simple file upload, like already makes money. 00:21:29.470 --> 00:21:32.460 So what if I put two days, I don't have two days a week, 00:21:32.470 --> 00:21:33.400 Michele: Well, how much does it make? 00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:34.420 Colleen: 14 right now? 00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:35.700 It's at 1400. 00:21:36.237 --> 00:21:39.137 So I guess Heroku takes some, so I don't know, $1,200 a month. 00:21:39.297 --> 00:21:41.357 Michele: That's pretty stable from. 00:21:41.660 --> 00:21:41.950 Colleen: Yeah. 00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:43.550 From last time we talked, it is not 00:21:43.860 --> 00:21:47.550 Michele: From even, but like six months ago, that's pretty like, like, so 00:21:47.860 --> 00:21:53.830 it's nothing to sneeze at, but it's also, it's not appreciably growing. 00:21:54.080 --> 00:21:55.000 It's not on the trajectory. 00:21:55.110 --> 00:21:58.990 Meanwhile, I know you guys have started selling some licenses for Hammer stone. 00:21:58.990 --> 00:22:01.340 You've got a little bit of stranger money going on, right. 00:22:01.800 --> 00:22:02.020 Colleen: Yes. 00:22:02.110 --> 00:22:03.180 We've sold a few licenses. 00:22:03.730 --> 00:22:06.990 Michele: So, and people are super pumped about it. 00:22:07.447 --> 00:22:08.987 It has wind in its sail. 00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:09.850 Colleen: It does. 00:22:10.030 --> 00:22:10.770 It really does. 00:22:11.270 --> 00:22:15.380 The problem is our 300 ish people who have signed up have not 00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:16.420 signed up for the rails product. 00:22:16.620 --> 00:22:18.510 Most of them have signed up for the Laravel product. 00:22:19.010 --> 00:22:21.260 That is not something I can move forward. 00:22:21.800 --> 00:22:26.260 And so we, as a team, Aaron, Sean and I are doing everything we can 00:22:26.320 --> 00:22:30.620 to move that forward, But they are constrained by their full-time jobs. 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.960 So we're gonna hire someone to help us, but now we have to 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:35.600 onboard, you know, a new guy. 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:38.080 So he's gonna take a month or whatever. 00:22:38.580 --> 00:22:40.660 I guess what I'm saying is I feel like that side of it 00:22:40.660 --> 00:22:41.620 is kind of out of my hands. 00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:44.980 I don't know if I can actually help a lot since it's not. 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:45.920 I don't know, 00:22:46.124 --> 00:22:48.984 Michele: But you can do more than just coding rails. 00:22:49.234 --> 00:22:49.844 Colleen: talk to me. 00:22:50.044 --> 00:22:50.334 Yeah. 00:22:50.334 --> 00:22:51.534 Theoretically, I just, 00:22:51.914 --> 00:22:52.134 yes. 00:22:52.584 --> 00:22:55.164 Michele: You, like like you were just saying, well, I was doing some marketing, 00:22:55.164 --> 00:22:56.244 but it wasn't actually marketing. 00:22:56.494 --> 00:22:57.454 And I was like, where is this? 00:22:57.454 --> 00:22:59.334 Where like, this is interesting. 00:22:59.334 --> 00:23:00.174 Where is this going? 00:23:00.434 --> 00:23:05.753 And like, even if you aren't a Laravel developer, like there's no reason why 00:23:05.773 --> 00:23:08.067 you can't be talking this up to people. 00:23:08.290 --> 00:23:08.510 Colleen: Yes. 00:23:08.570 --> 00:23:12.790 Michele: You could be doing stuff like I mean, just taking like a, an example, 00:23:12.890 --> 00:23:18.230 you could be going on podcast, talking about Hammer stone, and what it does. 00:23:18.340 --> 00:23:20.970 Like, I feel like I know all of you guys, and I still feel like 00:23:20.970 --> 00:23:21.930 I don't even know what it does. 00:23:21.930 --> 00:23:25.050 It's something about SQL and queries and like extremely unclear. 00:23:25.310 --> 00:23:29.170 And I talk to you guys all the time and like, have known about this from the very, 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:30.010 Colleen: yeah. 00:23:30.090 --> 00:23:35.067 Michele: um, you could be out promoting it or figuring out like all this stuff 00:23:35.067 --> 00:23:39.307 you've learned about marketing and documentation and the power of, like, 00:23:39.307 --> 00:23:42.507 you know, like developer, like videos and stuff on YouTube, like demos of stuff. 00:23:42.507 --> 00:23:47.347 You could be doing marketing work to sell it and like dealing with 00:23:47.397 --> 00:23:49.157 figuring out payment flows and like. 00:23:49.362 --> 00:23:50.422 you said there's licenses. 00:23:50.432 --> 00:23:51.852 I'm sure you've got a contract. 00:23:51.902 --> 00:23:52.822 What does that look like. 00:23:52.872 --> 00:23:58.582 Like all of the like biz ops type stuff, plus the marketing side, there is so 00:23:58.582 --> 00:24:03.422 much you can do to sell this thing that people already have shown that they want 00:24:03.422 --> 00:24:05.982 to buy, even though it barely exists. 00:24:06.282 --> 00:24:06.812 Colleen: It's true. 00:24:07.018 --> 00:24:10.148 Yeah, no, you're right now that you say that, I mean, there's tons of things I 00:24:10.148 --> 00:24:12.898 can think of that I could do to get us. 00:24:13.102 --> 00:24:13.392 Yeah. 00:24:13.592 --> 00:24:13.882 Yeah. 00:24:13.942 --> 00:24:15.402 To get us Businessy stuff. 00:24:15.902 --> 00:24:16.982 There's a lot of business 00:24:17.382 --> 00:24:17.542 business. 00:24:17.837 --> 00:24:22.247 Michele: Like the, the lot of Cody stuff, you know, is basically, it 00:24:22.247 --> 00:24:23.767 sounds like it's, you're basically done. 00:24:23.877 --> 00:24:26.247 like There's some more front end stuff that needs to be done, and you'll have 00:24:26.247 --> 00:24:30.497 some work to do related to wiring that up or, or whatnot, but like, the business 00:24:30.577 --> 00:24:35.937 E stuff, the sale, like the, I said the sailing stuff, the selling stuff, 00:24:36.742 --> 00:24:37.032 , Colleen: Yeah. 00:24:37.707 --> 00:24:38.497 Michele: we're all talking about. 00:24:38.497 --> 00:24:39.657 You have wind in the sales, right? 00:24:39.726 --> 00:24:44.400 There's a lot of that to be done and you have five months, like just speaking 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:49.870 as me as somebody who does really well with like drop dead deadlines like that. 00:24:50.020 --> 00:24:52.790 That is where I would be spending my energy. 00:24:52.850 --> 00:24:55.430 Now, it may not be your favorite place to spend energy. 00:24:55.490 --> 00:24:59.990 And you love going all in on, you know, file uploading and 00:24:59.990 --> 00:25:00.950 getting in the zone on that. 00:25:00.970 --> 00:25:04.620 But like, girl, if you wanna be a founder, you've gotta learn the BI op stuff. 00:25:04.620 --> 00:25:06.020 You've gotta learn marketing. 00:25:06.020 --> 00:25:06.860 You've gotta do sales. 00:25:06.860 --> 00:25:07.900 You've gotta do all of that. 00:25:07.900 --> 00:25:10.220 If you wanna be, you are a founder. 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:11.890 So those are responsibilities. 00:25:11.950 --> 00:25:14.130 Now it is your job to figure out what needs to be done 00:25:14.130 --> 00:25:15.170 and figure out how to do it. 00:25:15.520 --> 00:25:17.050 Even if it's not your favorite thing in the world. 00:25:17.360 --> 00:25:17.680 Sorry. 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:18.000 That was 00:25:18.105 --> 00:25:18.265 Colleen: that. 00:25:18.520 --> 00:25:18.760 Michele: there. 00:25:18.965 --> 00:25:20.265 Colleen: No, no, I okay. 00:25:20.265 --> 00:25:21.945 First of all, I love tough love. 00:25:22.015 --> 00:25:24.025 This is my favorite kind of yes. 00:25:24.465 --> 00:25:29.185 Feedback is to be like, okay, Colleen, get up and just stop whining and do the 00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:30.450 Michele: Well, you're not whining. 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.090 It's just, you're limiting yourself. 00:25:32.090 --> 00:25:32.330 Right? 00:25:32.330 --> 00:25:35.650 You're looking at this project and you're like, okay, well, I 00:25:35.650 --> 00:25:37.330 can't write laravel code for this. 00:25:37.430 --> 00:25:38.970 So I guess I can't do anything. 00:25:38.970 --> 00:25:43.796 And it's like, no, you are a found of this company and the 00:25:43.996 --> 00:25:47.236 responsibilities of a founder is to figure out what needs to be done in 00:25:47.236 --> 00:25:48.476 order to move this business forward. 00:25:48.776 --> 00:25:54.916 I spend such a small percentage of my time doing my core competence, like 00:25:55.126 --> 00:25:59.796 I spend on an entire year, I probably spend less than 50, 15% of my time 00:26:00.486 --> 00:26:03.706 doing like product development work. 00:26:03.936 --> 00:26:06.606 That is my functional expertise. 00:26:06.830 --> 00:26:10.670 I spend so much more time like dealing with accountants and contracts and 00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:15.243 like, you know, content and all of this other stuff that is not my functional 00:26:15.243 --> 00:26:18.523 expertise and learning new things that I didn't know how to do that. 00:26:18.993 --> 00:26:21.293 You know, and if they're not the most exciting thing, or I don't know how to 00:26:21.293 --> 00:26:24.893 do it, like figuring out who I need to, like what kind of freelancer or whatever 00:26:24.933 --> 00:26:26.503 I need to hire to get that done. 00:26:26.993 --> 00:26:27.343 Right. 00:26:27.363 --> 00:26:30.063 But like, as a founder, nobody's gonna give you a list of, of what 00:26:30.063 --> 00:26:32.743 to do, and they're not gonna tailor that list for what you're good at. 00:26:32.773 --> 00:26:33.983 It's up for you to figure it out. 00:26:34.043 --> 00:26:37.183 And, but the key to that is believing that you are capable of figuring out 00:26:37.383 --> 00:26:41.253 whatever that is, that are capable of figuring out what needs to be figured out. 00:26:41.555 --> 00:26:41.845 Colleen: Yeah. 00:26:42.145 --> 00:26:42.645 Michele: And you can. 00:26:42.675 --> 00:26:42.835 Colleen: great. 00:26:43.095 --> 00:26:43.995 That's great feedback. 00:26:44.155 --> 00:26:45.115 I mean, that absolutely is great. 00:26:45.335 --> 00:26:48.005 And it's almost like I have been okay. 00:26:48.085 --> 00:26:49.885 I haven't been sitting around, I've been working my butt off, 00:26:50.040 --> 00:26:50.680 Michele: I I know you 00:26:50.715 --> 00:26:54.725 Colleen: it's, but, but this just occurred to me as you are speaking this. 00:26:54.925 --> 00:26:59.135 So we have this awesome team of people who are really, really good at what they do. 00:26:59.835 --> 00:27:01.925 And Sean is really, really good at marketing. 00:27:01.925 --> 00:27:05.165 So he was gonna do that, but he's swamped because he has all this development 00:27:05.165 --> 00:27:06.445 work and he has a full time job. 00:27:06.745 --> 00:27:06.965 And. 00:27:07.465 --> 00:27:08.265 I could be doing that. 00:27:08.585 --> 00:27:10.825 I mean, what, what you are saying, what I am thinking, as you're 00:27:10.825 --> 00:27:15.625 saying this, I'm almost using this as a, as an excuse to not do that. 00:27:15.625 --> 00:27:17.545 Cause I'm like, well, he'll be better at it when he has time for 00:27:17.545 --> 00:27:18.465 it, but he doesn't have time for it. 00:27:18.620 --> 00:27:20.000 Michele: And Sean can teach you how to do it. 00:27:20.750 --> 00:27:23.480 Sean came on this very podcast and taught me how to market a book 00:27:23.710 --> 00:27:24.000 like. 00:27:24.460 --> 00:27:25.500 I did not have Sean market. 00:27:25.520 --> 00:27:26.180 The book for me. 00:27:26.260 --> 00:27:27.700 I had Sean tell me how to market the book. 00:27:27.896 --> 00:27:28.476 And then I did it. 00:27:28.776 --> 00:27:29.126 Colleen: Right. 00:27:29.126 --> 00:27:32.726 There's no reason if I can't contribute, obviously I'm building the rail side 00:27:32.726 --> 00:27:38.006 up, but if I can't contribute to the laravel development work, that is what 00:27:38.006 --> 00:27:39.326 is the reason we haven't shipped yet. 00:27:39.326 --> 00:27:42.020 Or I guess it's view development, work, whatever, there's a lot to 00:27:42.020 --> 00:27:44.750 your point, like this is a business I need to do businessy things. 00:27:45.170 --> 00:27:46.750 And if I don't know how to do them, I'll learn. 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.570 I've just kind of been waiting for someone else to do them. 00:27:49.610 --> 00:27:51.370 I think, which just occurred to me. 00:27:51.670 --> 00:27:52.370 So that's silly. 00:27:52.670 --> 00:27:54.290 So I should definitely do them. 00:27:54.290 --> 00:27:55.690 That's a good, that's great feedback. 00:27:55.993 --> 00:27:58.373 Michele: And I mean, the thing about the businessy stuff and 00:27:58.563 --> 00:28:00.153 like you're an engineer, right? 00:28:00.203 --> 00:28:03.383 You might be used to like getting a spec from somebody of how something should 00:28:03.383 --> 00:28:04.983 work and like what you're supposed to do. 00:28:05.283 --> 00:28:08.316 And like, It's so different than being an employee. 00:28:08.346 --> 00:28:11.146 Nobody's gonna hand you the list of, of how things gonna work, but like 00:28:11.146 --> 00:28:15.876 you basically, your spec right now is Hammer stone needs to be able to 00:28:15.876 --> 00:28:17.276 support your salary in five months. 00:28:17.976 --> 00:28:18.896 Go, go. 00:28:18.916 --> 00:28:19.576 That's that? 00:28:19.576 --> 00:28:19.976 That's the 00:28:20.096 --> 00:28:20.216 Colleen: right. 00:28:20.566 --> 00:28:23.136 Michele: like and figure out however that needs to be done. 00:28:23.866 --> 00:28:26.116 Colleen: This is so good, Michelle, because this is funny, cuz I brought 00:28:26.116 --> 00:28:27.636 this up with the guys just last week. 00:28:27.636 --> 00:28:29.396 Cuz I, the same thing we were talking about, I was like, 00:28:30.336 --> 00:28:31.156 I'm gonna be down in August. 00:28:31.336 --> 00:28:32.476 Are we gonna be able to pay me? 00:28:32.496 --> 00:28:34.436 And it was, we didn't think like this though. 00:28:34.436 --> 00:28:36.596 They, we were thinking, oh, well the product's not done. 00:28:36.936 --> 00:28:37.156 So. 00:28:37.616 --> 00:28:38.706 Michele: It's not about the product. 00:28:38.766 --> 00:28:40.026 It is about selling the. 00:28:40.031 --> 00:28:41.081 Colleen: It's not about the product. 00:28:41.751 --> 00:28:42.041 Geez. 00:28:42.421 --> 00:28:42.841 So weird. 00:28:43.501 --> 00:28:43.721 Yes. 00:28:44.041 --> 00:28:44.601 I love this. 00:28:44.601 --> 00:28:45.561 This is so good. 00:28:45.951 --> 00:28:46.241 Okay. 00:28:46.281 --> 00:28:47.561 I like my spec, my spec. 00:28:47.761 --> 00:28:49.481 I have to be able to pay myself in five months. 00:28:49.981 --> 00:28:50.791 It's a good spec. 00:28:51.291 --> 00:28:54.071 Michele: Go sell the thing, stop coding the thing. 00:28:54.571 --> 00:28:55.581 Colleen: Stop coding the thing. 00:28:55.581 --> 00:28:56.381 Go sell the thing. 00:28:57.121 --> 00:29:01.026 Michele: I mean, So I mean, my vote is for, you know, keep the lights 00:29:01.026 --> 00:29:04.606 on with simple file upload, like keep it running, but focus that 00:29:04.606 --> 00:29:08.676 the time and energy and whatever you wanna call that, I don't know. 00:29:08.716 --> 00:29:10.716 I don't know, like you, you experience Like you're sitting at 00:29:10.716 --> 00:29:11.596 your desk and you're like, okay. 00:29:11.636 --> 00:29:14.196 I actually don't really know what I have to work on right now. 00:29:14.306 --> 00:29:15.916 And you could go off and do some something else. 00:29:15.936 --> 00:29:17.596 You could go off on another project, right? 00:29:17.596 --> 00:29:21.231 You could like, or, you know, Further time away. 00:29:21.231 --> 00:29:21.431 Right. 00:29:21.451 --> 00:29:24.471 But like using that, when you have that time, be like, okay, how can I 00:29:24.491 --> 00:29:27.951 use this time to promote hammer stone? 00:29:27.951 --> 00:29:31.911 Whether that's writing content, writing documentation, figuring out 00:29:31.971 --> 00:29:36.191 BI ops, pitching yourself to be on a podcast, pitching yourself to be on 00:29:36.191 --> 00:29:41.881 a panel, doing something that gets you toward that MRR that helps you. 00:29:42.321 --> 00:29:44.481 I guess it's not really like an, it's not a subscription product, right? 00:29:44.481 --> 00:29:45.081 It's like a license, 00:29:45.131 --> 00:29:45.481 right. 00:29:45.551 --> 00:29:46.081 It's like a, 00:29:46.261 --> 00:29:47.361 Colleen: a annual annual 00:29:47.521 --> 00:29:47.811 Michele: okay. 00:29:48.121 --> 00:29:48.411 Okay. 00:29:48.611 --> 00:29:52.351 That a Arrr then that lets you work on this full time and not 00:29:52.351 --> 00:29:53.231 have to go back to client work. 00:29:53.534 --> 00:29:55.434 Colleen: I'm gonna write that on a sticky and put it on my computer. 00:29:55.744 --> 00:29:55.864 just 00:29:55.999 --> 00:29:57.189 Michele: Maybe we should record this. 00:29:57.249 --> 00:29:58.469 So then you can come back to it. 00:29:59.084 --> 00:30:00.194 Colleen: maybe we should do that. 00:30:00.694 --> 00:30:02.914 Michele: we should like do it every week and then you can 00:30:02.914 --> 00:30:04.074 like update us on your progress 00:30:04.389 --> 00:30:05.119 Colleen: what an idea. 00:30:05.134 --> 00:30:07.034 Michele: all, all of this, not coding you're doing 00:30:07.609 --> 00:30:08.299 Colleen: what an idea. 00:30:08.352 --> 00:30:09.112 Michele: I feel like we got a plan. 00:30:09.415 --> 00:30:10.225 Colleen: Yeah, I love it. 00:30:10.405 --> 00:30:11.425 I'm this is exciting. 00:30:11.885 --> 00:30:12.745 I'm I'm excited. 00:30:13.175 --> 00:30:14.665 Michele: Next week or whenever actually. 00:30:14.665 --> 00:30:17.385 So we're not gonna, it's not gonna be the two of us because 00:30:17.885 --> 00:30:19.685 hypothetically I will see you soon. 00:30:19.729 --> 00:30:20.189 Colleen: You better. 00:30:20.749 --> 00:30:20.949 better. 00:30:21.849 --> 00:30:22.139 Michele: yeah. 00:30:22.206 --> 00:30:26.088 In a couple weeks you will have an update for me, keep a 00:30:26.088 --> 00:30:28.248 journal, a log of all of the. 00:30:28.748 --> 00:30:30.528 BI ops marketing stuff. 00:30:30.788 --> 00:30:36.168 And then the thing is, is like, if you feel like you hit a snag on the, 00:30:36.828 --> 00:30:42.748 the non Cody stuff, we'll call it like talk to me, I do all of this stuff. 00:30:43.148 --> 00:30:44.068 I have an MBA. 00:30:44.098 --> 00:30:46.685 Like I am here to help you. 00:30:46.995 --> 00:30:50.555 Like, I, you like just, you know, point you in the right direction when you don't 00:30:50.555 --> 00:30:52.155 know where to go on something, right? 00:30:52.205 --> 00:30:53.125 We'll figure it out together. 00:30:53.426 --> 00:30:53.716 Colleen: Okay. 00:30:53.956 --> 00:30:54.356 I love it. 00:30:54.556 --> 00:30:54.846 Cool. 00:30:55.046 --> 00:30:55.576 Michele: It's a plan. 00:30:56.076 --> 00:30:56.376 All right. 00:30:56.876 --> 00:30:58.476 I guess that's, I guess that's it for 00:30:58.476 --> 00:30:58.796 today, 00:30:58.926 --> 00:31:00.186 Colleen: end, the end. 00:31:00.483 --> 00:31:00.903 Michele: the end.