Interview: TikToks about terrible haircuts,
Chris Noth,
Roger Clemens,
Andy Pettitte,
Jose Canseco,
Ringling Bros Clown College,
Notre Dame High School,
Steve Smith,
Oakton Community College, being the youngest clown in the circus, clowning in Japan,
Piven Theatre workshop,
Auguste clownery,
Reduced Shakespeare Company, losing his wife to cancer,
Sebastian Maniscalco,
Second City, The
By Your Side Autism Podcast,
Yes And.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth from
2 (9s):
Eunice and I'm Gina Polizzi.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?
3 (31s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. Happy new year. Happy 2022. What is going to happen to us in 2022? It is truly a crapshoot. It is anybody's guess it literally could be anything with this could be the year of yet more plagues. We could have locusts. We could have cow mad cow member, mad cows. We have some more mad cows we could have just seriously like a Chinese throwing stars falling from the sky. Literally could be anything. So, you know, what are we going to do? We're going to hope for the best prepare for the worst. Is that what it's called? Is that what they say? Yeah. Anyway. So for today, for the beginning, part of our episode, we're giving you, but I hope you'll see as a special treat, which is a look back at some previously, what do they call it?
3 (1m 23s):
Lost footage. Is it footage if it's audio? Hmm. I don't know. Well, footage came from video in any case it had to do with film. So you have so audio footage. Sure. Audio footage back from the days before this was called, I survived theater school and we were calling the podcast undeniable. I mean, we recorded a bunch of episodes of that, which have never been aired. And so we thought it'd be fun to take a little sneak peek back at those old days that we recorded actually in 2020, the year that was, will live in and to, and we're gonna play some of it for you tonight. And then after that, we have a fabulous interview with our first ever clown, Matt croak.
3 (2m 7s):
So please enjoy
1 (2m 20s):
The wire is like a parental figure for me. It's the weirdest thing. He is so complicated, but also really true to himself. But anyway, I just posted about like that, those characters and that, and that, and that trueness to themselves is what I love about television. It's like this character is true to themselves. They're whatever that means to them. You know, like it doesn't always look pretty.
2 (2m 49s):
Yes. And, and television has the opportunity to show a lot more of the, the nitty gritty of the reality of a life in a movie. Everything. I mean, I guess if you're just taking a one slice one day in the life of maybe you could get down to that level of detail, but mostly a movie is just sort of giving a grand and often very positive spin on, you know, if the person is not as layered as they can
1 (3m 20s):
And it's not yet to be, it's not as, it's not as like it's it's. Yeah. It's just, there's not enough time. You're like, wait a second. We just had enough time. But yeah.
2 (3m 31s):
So what did your parents make of you watching that stuff?
1 (3m 34s):
They thought I was like nuts. They were like, you're making yourself scared. And I, and I want it to be like, no, you're making me scared. I, this is comforting me. You know what I mean? Like this, I didn't have control over, but I didn't say that obviously I'm a kid, but I, they thought it was weird. Yeah. They thought it was really weird because I would get into America's most wanted was on the same night as unsolved mysteries, I think. And then, and then once we got cable and or once it also like, kind of merged into like big foot UFO. Oh yeah. I got a two foot UFO's all that stuff.
2 (4m 15s):
Well, I think people who get into that or people who feel also on the fringe of whatever, the thing that they're trying to be a part of is right. And it makes perfect, right? Yeah, yeah.
1 (4m 27s):
Yeah. I left. I believed in big foot. I remember watching the California big foot tape that old 70 something, which is interesting. Cause that's around the Kiki time. There's that famous? There's a famous, famous, famous caught on tape. 1970. I want to say eight or nine in Redlands, somewhere in California. And it I'm pretty sure. And it's the sky. You got to look it up. It's the creepiest. And they still can't. They, they can't disprove it and they can't, they can't. And they're like, no, it's, it's a fake, but it is, it is the quintessential Bigfoot movie. It was caught on movie and film.
1 (5m 8s):
And I remember seeing that and be like, oh my God, that's real. That's that's real. And things exist outside of us that we have no, like universes exists multiuniverse is exists. That we are not approving the privy to, until we stumble upon it.
2 (5m 33s):
Did I tell you about the, when I first saw the warehouse that I lived in with Jeff and Rob and booklet?
1 (5m 41s):
No, but I thought of you the other day, because someone we live near a street called Oakland. Yeah.
2 (5m 47s):
So just briefly, you know, my whole plan to move to California after DePaul was with this person who I was calling my boyfriend, who was definitely my boy who told me like, yeah, I want to move to California. And so my interpretation was we are moving to California together and it was so devastated when he didn't want to do it. So on the quick I had to find a place to live and I don't remember why maybe I called Jeff because they were, I knew he was there. He was like, he was there. Who was planning to go there? Or he was there already. And he was like, yeah, we need a roommate. Do you want to come live in Oakland? Never been to Oakland in my life.
2 (6m 27s):
Never met, Rob didn't know anything about it. And so the day I'm moving in, my dad is driving me from Sacramento and he's driving a big pickup truck and we start to get into Oak I'm he already was like, Oakland, are you sure? Cause my dad's fucking racist and we start driving it and we start getting too. It's like first it looks pretty nice. That was a little scary. Does anybody live here? Because it was all warehouses. It was all that first wave of gentrification of, you know, people turning warehouses into lofts.
2 (7m 7s):
And when we finally pulled up, you know, inside, I'm dying, but I'm saying to my dad, this looks great. This looks awesome. My dad's like, are you sure you want, do you want to just, we can just turn right around and go home. So I get out and knock on the door, Rob answers. And I'm like, Hey, I'm Gina. And he's like, Hey, I'm Rob. You want to move in? I go, yeah. He goes, he goes, hang on a second. Next thing I know he closes the door and the garage door starts out. One of those huge roll up that you had to pull with the chain and I'm telling you, my dad drove his truck into our new house and parked it right there.
2 (7m 54s):
And I unloaded all the stuff for the back. And it was a big concrete box with a bathroom and a loft that had no walls. And Jeff had a sleeping bag here. Rob had a sleeping bag here floor. Yeah. And, and, and Rob's like, you can have that corner. He goes, don't worry. We're building walls soon. And we did, or they did went to home Depot, got sheet like, and Rob built basically us partition. So we at least had a partition to sleep in.
2 (8m 36s):
And I fucking lived there for two years. You leave that shit. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Two years. It was two years. And, and Jeff was Jeff practice drums like eight hours a day. I'm not kidding you. I mean, you got to respect the discipline, but he, he got up at a certain time. He went downstairs and he started practicing drums and he had, cause you know, he has that whole, very rigidly musical family with all that. And he, maybe it wasn't eight hours. Maybe it was four hours, but he did like drum scales or whatever they call for four hours while I was trying to sleep. Cause I was a cocktail waitress and I would get home at like two in the morning.
1 (9m 17s):
My favorite stories about you is you told me that you were quitting smoking and you had a bunch of patches on and you passed out, do you remember this? You know, you were okay. You, this was during this time you worked at, at, at a bar. If you were trying to quit smoking at one point. And so you put on, but you didn't, you put on multiple patches, nicotine patches and you didn't eat or something and you like pass out. And I was like, oh my God, this was during that time. I remember it. Cause we were living in Oakland. There was something with patches and like the things we did, you know the thing.
2 (9m 56s):
So we did and you know what else I was doing. Then I got into the worst codependent, like relations situation. I was working at this bar and this guy really liked me. Was he
1 (10m 10s):
Married? No. Yes.
2 (10m 13s):
He was married and he was so much older than me and I wasn't even attracted to him. He was c'est with me. And I had never experienced that in your entire life. And I kept being like, okay, I guess what it is. Cause like every other thing I've had, I'm trying to chasing some fool around this guy. Think he wants to leave his wife for me. He wants to, he wants to move us back to his hometown and Guatemala. He was obsessed. And I really worked so hard to try to convince myself that I liked him.
1 (10m 51s):
I think I remember
2 (10m 52s):
This. And then I couldn't get myself out of this with them. I had to quit. I had to quit the job and say, bye. I'm never running out. I did a real Irish goodbye. Like I know you wanted to marry me that I'm leaving. And I never looked back and I got a job at Yoshi's
1 (11m 16s):
That's right. Oh my God.
3 (11m 33s):
Today on the podcast broke, finish the clowns school and he, her first clown or hurting Ringling brothers, clown. And he's got a really interesting story. He now is retired from clowning and he's part of the
4 (11m 53s):
Shakespeare company out of Chicago. And we had a really fun conversation. So please enjoy Matt croak
5 (12m 4s):
Theater. People mentioned it. And then I saw Sean on it and I listened. That was the first one I listened to it for us. And then, and then that's how I heard about it. Okay.
6 (12m 12s):
Sorry. I was late. I was watching or I started, I was watching tic-tacs about people getting terrible haircut. That's the content I think
4 (12m 23s):
In truth, you are not late. We're all quite early. I was myself. I was reading about the third Chris Knowth accusation. I mean, you know, if you get accused like by two, just come on out and just do the cause S the trickling through it's worse. Right? Because he keeps, he keeps,
6 (12m 47s):
I mean, I can only know. And I don't know Matt, how you've, if you've listened to my episode, the, any of the episodes, but like that story of mine, how I lied to my boss and then it got the lie got bigger and bigger. Cause it's my favorite. Okay. So I worked for someone fancy. And then anyway, w and I had a lot of bosses and one of them was this woman and her mom called one day. And like, and she called and I was supposed to report it in the call tracker. I did not do that. So then she said, did my mom call? And I said, no, I just lied. And then she said, really? Cause she said, she called. And I said, no.
6 (13m 27s):
And then she said, really? Cause, cause it's just you and Kelly, this other woman in the office. And she said, she talked to you. I said, no, she didn't,
5 (13m 37s):
But what's your mindset right now? Are you going, I'm going with this? Or you're like, oh, it's getting close. I'm going to get caught. Or you're just like, yeah, no,
6 (13m 43s):
No. I like really committed. Then I dug in triple down the lie. And that was the sort of the Knauf thing is like, it's like, I couldn't let go. And it got bigger and bigger and bigger. And it like,
5 (13m 57s):
Well, here's the problem. And, and I'm not, I'm not all sports guys. I hate to bring sports into it. But people like the chase and people like the mystery. So when Roger Clemens got caught for steroids and he's like, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. And went on forever. And then when Andy Pettitte got caught, he went, yeah, I got injured. I took a bunch of stuff. I wanted to get better. And he kept playing baseball and nobody cared about Andy Pettitte. And yet still Roger Clemens, every press it's like, they want to chase because we were going. But didn't Jose Conseco say you were at that party because they're trying to, but weren't you with that girl who then said, just come out, be like,
4 (14m 32s):
'cause like, it will come out and you just, it's better for you to be the person who's in charge of, you know, to come and clean your own
6 (14m 41s):
Narratives. Yes.
4 (14m 43s):
Okay. Do you go by Matt or Matthew?
5 (14m 46s):
Matthew, but Matt. Okay.
4 (14m 48s):
Matt Crowe. Congratulations. You survived clown school. This is the first
5 (14m 54s):
And as a side note, it was my mother's idea. Just to be very clear.
6 (14m 59s):
Yeah. Wait, so let's start right there. What in the heck
5 (15m 4s):
I live in suburbs of Chicago, Niles. I'm at Notre Dame high school. I'm a senior three weeks away from graduation. They, they didn't really have a theater program. So, but I knew I wanted to get into some kind of performing. So my mom comes home. This is true. She comes home. She says, Matt, I heard that they're having clown college auditions for Ringling brothers to go to clown college. And I honestly said this to my mom. I said, mom, that sounds great. Good luck in the circus. I'm the youngest of five. I thought she's saying, you know, she was running away to the circus. I'm like, did you tell Brad's fantastic? And she said, no, not for me for you. Now this is, this is 88.
5 (15m 44s):
So, you know, Stephen King just wrote it like three years prior. I'm like, oh mom, clowns are outright now hard pass. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not thinking clowning, but I'll pass on that. And she's like, yeah, I know I heard this program. It's in Florida for eight and a half weeks. And I go, wait, hold on. You're going to let me go to Florida for eight and a half weeks. Oh, let's rethink this whole clown thing. Maybe they're not as scary as I think they are. So they held auditions at DePaul university. The director of clown college has a strong connection with DePaul. I don't, I'm not sure if he was a student, Steve Smith is his name. And he did a show in Chicago called kidding around, but college.
5 (16m 25s):
So we had him at DePaul university. So I saw I'm 18 years old, still at Northern high school. So we show up to the audition. I know nothing of clowning, like the bozo show, that's it. I know nothing. So I walk in and people are trust, full makeup and costume, right? There's a guy juggling bowling balls. There's you know, two guys snapping at each other on the corner of the rubber chickens. And I, I turned to my mom and dad. I said, okay, we're leaving right now. And my mom's like, oh no, this seems really interesting. We should stay. I'm like, okay, we're here more for you than we are for me right now. It's like a lot of people not in makeup and costume real fast to jump ahead.
5 (17m 6s):
What I didn't know that is that actually Ringling likes to shape their own clowns. So people who showed up in full makeup and costume were probably at a disadvantage because they didn't want the birthday party or they wanted their own kind of circus cloud. I didn't know that. So they didn't.
6 (17m 23s):
That was good. It was good. It was ignorance gets it and kind of say, it's the same with theater school. If you come in and you're like, I'm a fully formed actor, they're going to be like, oh, go fuck yourself. We want, we want to break you down. Oh,
5 (17m 35s):
And Ringling. I mean, we didn't get the creativeness is they almost suck out of the crane because they want it their way. Like this is so they really want to shape you their own way. So the audition starts and he just says briefly, he's like, I'm going to teach you this bit. It's comedy bit, some physical movement don't change it. Don't try to be funny. Just do it. And I'm like, right. What? So we did some pretty simple timing is everything. I am so glad I didn't go first because people went up there and sure enough, they try to be funny. They're doing things with their hands, trying to add to it. And I look at the director of clown college and he's just shaking his head and I go, I get it. They don't care. If I'm really funny, they want to see if I can follow directions. I'm like, Hey, I can follow directions.
5 (18m 17s):
So I just did what they told me to do. Did my movement. We did improv. I remember they put a chair in the middle of the room, walk in, do something with the chair, walkout. I boxed it and lost. That was my improv. So that's good. That's good audition ends. And they give you like this 12 page application. When was the last time you cried three favorite books you read? I mean really intense. And
4 (18m 41s):
The last time you cried, that was one of the questions I love that I would have.
5 (18m 45s):
It was really intense, like 12 pages and like a booklet, but 12, like all these questions. And so my mom's like, did you fill it out? I'm like, yeah. You know, she was like all over me, like homework. So I fill it out. I send it in. So now I'm like a week away from graduating high school. And we, I get a letter in the mail from Ringling brothers and I opened it up and confetti spills all over the place. And it said, congratulations, you made it. And I'm like, oh my gosh. So my mom and dad come home and I hold up my letter. I said, I got in, I'm going to cloud college. And my mom goes, oh, oh, oh, we should talk about this.
4 (19m 28s):
Oh, like she was doing a bit when she wanted you to go apply.
5 (19m 33s):
I told her, I'm like, well, you didn't think I'd get into cloud college. And then she's like taking deep breaths going, no, you're going, you're going. You're going, what did I do? You're going. And so, so I, I graduated high school now. I was going to go to Oakland community college. I already had a plan to great
4 (19m 50s):
College. My mom,
5 (19m 52s):
Where did she teach? What did she,
4 (19m 55s):
She taught English
5 (19m 56s):
Way. Yeah. I met my wife there. I may actually go, went back to, I love Oakton. And, and so now I got to tell all my friends, cause I didn't tell my friends. I was auditioning at clown. College is just the whole concept to me. It was still, I don't know, clowning it's so I'll keep it short this part. But my conversations were, wait, you're not going to open. You're going to, I'm like clown college to do what? And I'm like, you know, I'm not really sure. I'm like, well, wouldn't it be to be a clown? You know, that sounds right. I think that's what I'm doing. And they're like, but you're going to clown college. Correct. That was with all my grads. That's
4 (20m 35s):
Fantastic. They're like
5 (20m 37s):
That's three weeks a month. After high school, I go down to Venice, Florida, go in. Now they say 3000 apply. Only 50 people get in. So there's only 50 of us. I get clown college and I can go into more detail. But it's basically a 10 and a half week train, basically a 10 and a half week audition. And they give you full. You, you, you create your makeup, your costume, they teach you mind falls, you know, improv all these classes. And then at the end you do a graduation show. The owner of the circus comes. He sits down and you have a number on you. My parents came in for the graduation. You do a two-hour show. He writes it down the next day.
5 (21m 17s):
After knowing these people for 10 weeks, you go into the cafeteria, wearing a suit, not a clown suit, regular suit. And they come in, they read five names off. I was part of that five, another five, another eight, 18 walk in goodbye. Thank you for the rice. And those 18 got in the circus and everyone else went home.
6 (21m 35s):
Holy shit. Now, first of all, I have so many. It's just so fascinating. Like my question, my first question is, did you have to pay
5 (21m 44s):
No, no. Free, free. I should've done this. I think you had to pay for the hotel or no, you just had paid for some fees completely free
6 (21m 57s):
Fucking day. And then, and then, okay, so that was my first question. My second question is where the other people did you form bonds with these other clowns
5 (22m 7s):
You do and you, I mean, vines that I still have today. Matter of fact, one of the fun things of the pandemic, I helped organize a, a reunion where I saw people I haven't seen forever. You do, you do form bonds, which is why that last day was kind of hard because it ends in such a bad note. You become close, you're all working on this craft. Most people, it used to be to give you a quick history. You know, when Irvin Feld started con college, he said, my clowns can fall down. They can't get up. It was your stereotypical seven-year-old clowns, probably alcoholic, you know, just very, very poor shape. And he decided to do a clown college. And it actually morphed, which I felt was better into people, either going into college or between college.
5 (22m 48s):
And it became much younger, but they only stayed a couple of years in the circus. It wasn't that you joined the circus, you're in it for 20 years. So the turnover was a little higher, but that's okay because they had clown college. So then it just became mostly college people. I was the youngest clown in the circus. I was 18, but most people were like in their mid twenties.
6 (23m 5s):
Okay. That it has to be the name of your fricking memoir. I was the youngest.
5 (23m 11s):
And what's interesting. A couple, you know, what I found fascinating is that every Saturday they would do, you would put on a showcase, voluntarily, write a skit, try something out and you didn't have to do it. When the graduation came, they then told us they were picking skits that they saw from those Saturday night shows. And all those people who didn't do one went, holy crap. I didn't, I never did anything. You would then go in someone else's skit. So luckily I don't, I'll be the first to tell you, I wasn't the most talented by far, but I, Saturday night, I, I did something. I tried something out. I had three skits in the graduation show and you get writers' credit for all that.
5 (23m 52s):
And then we're, you know, I mean, we're talking basic clown skits here. And that really helped me. And that taught me a lesson of, you know, even in, even in an opportunity where three, you know, 3000 apply 50, get in. Some people weren't there. You know, there was still just not really trying to get the most out of it. And I lucked into that lesson. I wasn't very ambitious, but little by little one. Oh, I was picking up clues. Like, you know, don't try to be funny, just follow directions or, oh crap. I'm glad I wrote a skit because now it's in this graduation. So clown college for me was a really great foundation for kind of getting a work ethic and just a personal ethical, what it would mean to be in this field.
5 (24m 32s):
How did,
4 (24m 33s):
So the, how did DePaul figure into this? When did you go there?
5 (24m 38s):
So after I got, so when I, so I went to, and I could go back. So I, I did the circus for a year. I signed a contract that the short lived on a train, the whole, the whole thing. Then AF after I came back, I did not sign another contract. So I want to do second city. So I came home and I was home like three days and another quick mom's story, I'm home three days and Marineland calls me, my parents were on a cruise and really calls me. And they said, Hey, we have this contracting eight, eight months with Japan. Do you want to go? It's not the circus, but it's something else. Tell us by tomorrow or moving on. That's so Ringling. Right? Oh, my parents are on a cruise. So I'm calling, you know, shore to ship, trying to get my mom. She's on Dramamine.
5 (25m 18s):
Cause of the thing. Hi honey. I'm like, I think I'm going to Japan for him. I love your father's playing cards. Okay. I'm going to Japan for eight, my bike, you know, so I just I'm like, I'm going to Japan. And then when we came back after that contract
4 (25m 37s):
In Japan, if it wasn't the
5 (25m 38s):
Best job ever, ever, one of the jobs was that these big department stores, they're trying to rebrand be a little more Western, a little more friendly. So they hired Ringling clowns. One of the gigs to go through their store, big department store, you know, 20 stories high because they built, you know, high and just walk around and just clown in a department store. What I did is I went to the TV section at the time when you know, it was rows and rows of TV, I put them all on static. I took a chair from there, from the furniture department, put it in front, went to the food court, got food and ate food, watching hundreds of statics, TVs, laughing, pointing, crying.
5 (26m 21s):
I like 200 people watching me. I mean, literally this was my gig. I would go and pull the wigs off of mannequins. It'd be like a chew in the way it was. Oh, you know, it was a ma cause they're very proper. And so any of this improper stuff, so that was my, that's like the
4 (26m 36s):
Greatest job. Where did you live? Did you speak Japanese? Did everybody else? Did you have a group of X paths? Tell us
5 (26m 43s):
Everything. So I, I, again, fortunate, no, they stuck us in a very, very heavy populated Japanese. No, we weren't. We were actually not in we're near Tokyo, but not in the city where all the tourists and all that. So it was very, I had a, and it was great because when I first got there, I'm doing Kentucky fried chicken McDonald's and then by the time I'm there a month, I'm doing all the noodle shops with no signs on the, you know, just walk it in and just immersed in the culture. We did take classes to speak, but I was full immersed in the culture. And now I've actually with reduced Shakespeare company. I've been to Japan three times. I fell in love with it. I just love Japan. I love the culture I love, you know, and I know there's a lot of struggling performers on our COVID, you know, from when I was there, they loved street performers.
5 (27m 29s):
I mean, they get paid well, I mean, it's really, they love the Western culture of, of entertainment. Hmm.
6 (27m 36s):
Wow.
4 (27m 37s):
Okay. So then when you were done with your eight months of Japan, you came back to Chicago.
5 (27m 42s):
Okay. Back to Chicago. And then I w I always ha I knew DePaul, obviously, because I live in Chicago, I did start taking some second city classes, so I want to stay local. It just seemed right to me. I don't think I ever looked anywhere else. And so I did audition and it took me a while to get in with financial aid and stuff. And I live, I commuted, I stayed at home, so I just auditioned. And I, and I got in, so I got, I, you know, I got into DePaul, love this, this had, hadn't been 90, 93, 92, 93, something like that.
4 (28m 16s):
And at this point, were you thinking, okay, now I'm, I'm switching gears. I'm going to be a serious actor.
5 (28m 22s):
I was switching gears because I always felt even in the circus that the clowning would be more once I was in the program and I got the sense, it wasn't seven year olds who are going to be in the circus for 20 years. And it was college people, all learning their craft. You talked about the bonding. We all were kind of working on our craft, you know, studying Commedia dell'arte and you know, and, and the clowning craft, what really amazed me of, I think of clowning is birthday clowns. But once you get learned the craft, you go, oh, wow, there's really something to performance. And this conformance can leave here. A lot of guys were going overseas to learn, you know, clowning in Europe, wouldn't you, you know, Japan, it just, it was, it always, to me was a stepping stone to something else.
6 (29m 8s):
Can I just tell you that I just have to interrupt and ask, like the mask work, you know, how clown, like committee of RTA and stuff with the masks. So when I was 16, I did a mass class at pivot theater workshop at Evanston with, with, oh my God. Anyway, a famous guy that passed away, eight Quinn, someone Quint. Anyway. And that mask work that I did was probably somewhat, and I was 16 was probably some of the deepest, darkest acting I've ever done. It was not funny, but it was so Mo like, it was so intense because I had the mask on and it also taught me so much.
6 (29m 48s):
And I realized, oh, oh, clowning and mask work and stuff is like serious fucking business. Oh
4 (29m 55s):
Yeah. Harpo Marx will break your heart. If you wa you know, there's some real path us there. Anyway,
5 (30m 4s):
You know, it's a little bit of a rivalry, but one of the things that was fascinating, and I think kind of the joke, upper, they clowns where they can be scary. And I would never have known it is, you know, when you put on the makeup that you're using the muscles in your face, and most of these birthday clowns are putting a smile that reaches to their heirs. And it's freaking the children out because we call it a BA a busted ass looks like you got a big smile, but that's not how your face works. That's not how a smile works. So to use every muscle, are you a happier, sad clown doesn't work. You can be a character clown in a hobo, but technically your emotion will dictate if you're happy or sad, there is no, are you happy or sad? The situation will dictate if you're happy or sad. And if your makeup, we can't tell a Madison square garden from 30 rows up that you're sad, then your makeup's not good.
5 (30m 47s):
So you really have to focus on using the muscles and how does the black and the red all mixed together and really show what you're doing. So your facial work is so important in circus clowning, because you're not doing work at clowning making balloon animals. So you're in arenas, you know, hundreds, thousands of people. And you have to convey that emotion.
4 (31m 10s):
It's fun. It's the traditional makeup that you think of with a clown, with the red cheeks. And the, was that all just a version of what would they teach us? Regular stage makeup is for, to play to the way back. So you can just literally see your features.
5 (31m 26s):
Yeah. So you don't, you, you want to, yeah. So, you know, if it's too busy, it's too much of that suit, right? So some people like the white face, cause it's a very classical, you just have the white face. And I was a goosed where you did more, it was more expression, a goosed it's called you have hobo, a goose and white face, white faces white with, with some of the features, blue or red character as a hobo or something, you know, something very distinctive. And then a goose is exaggerated feature. Right? My eyes would go above my eyebrows, right? My cheeks will go stand. Not the, not, not it doesn't extend past your muscles, but it extends a little into your muscles. And I was more than kind of clown and, and white face is considered more classical.
5 (32m 9s):
You know, they're, they're a little more and a goose is more mischievous. I, I kind of like the mischievous character.
4 (32m 14s):
That's cool. So you go, you got into DePaul, but you said, I think you said in your email, you didn't make it the whole year.
5 (32m 23s):
Yeah. So I'm in DePaul and, you know, I get to Paul and I really, I really liked the people who I was with. And it's funny. I still, in order to in high school, I still didn't have any acting experience. I'm not Connie at this point. And you know, you maybe think stereotypical, you get into theater school and, you know, you feel what the air and you do all that for me, that really slowed everything down. I really enjoyed those exercises of, you know, walking through thick air or you're in quicksand. Cause I'd never really experienced that before, because I didn't have any acting per se. And so I was really enjoying DePaul because that's the best way I can describe it. It's slowed everything down for me.
5 (33m 5s):
It just, you know, okay, what does this feel like? Cause clowning was more me, but you know, how can I, but I didn't really get into what can I do. That's kind of me or not me at all, but still me. And so that combination was really great. And even the, even the, the regular classes where Rick Murphy would just have you stand in front of people and do nothing and just stand there. I found that really helpful because
6 (33m 34s):
That's right. I forgot about that thing and exercise.
5 (33m 38s):
So quick aside, my, my first, my first class at second city, when I went through the training center, I remember this clearly I would say, I remember it I'm up there. I'm very, you know, very, I mean, I get this and the guidance from the whole class yells, Hey, KROQ, stop trying to be funny. It's painful to watch. And I was like, oh
6 (33m 59s):
Wow.
5 (34m 0s):
I'm so Ernest, I got to do it. And it's almost what he said in clown college. Don't be funny. Just do the scene. The comedy will come. And so second city offs are taught me. I don't have to be funny if I'm just true to the scene, the humor will come. And if it's not funny, at least it's interesting, Nothing worse than trying to go for the joke and it doesn't land. And people are like, ah, it didn't really land. Just be honest to it. And DePaul. So in my short time really kind of helped me. I, I need slowing down even to this day, I need to slow down. You know, it just kind of helped me get it to another level.
6 (34m 39s):
You know, what, what, what, what is I learned so much from interviewing people on this podcast? And one thing I just hit me was cause in commercials, when I auditioned for commercials or television and film, there is a need to push because we want, I want to do the good work, but I love what you just said was don't try to be funny, just be true to the script in the scene. And even if you're not funny, at least you'll be interesting.
5 (35m 7s):
And I think it's more, I think the stakes are higher because if you're going for funny, it always, it always can go into chaos and you're just busy and busy. It's almost like, well, I'm busy, I'm doing something. But if you're in the scene, you almost are committing to a certain silence and a pacing that says you're going to come along this journey with me. And I'm going to slowly reveal my emotions. That's a lot harder to just be wacky and oh, I don't have to think about anything. So it's
6 (35m 36s):
Interesting to think
4 (35m 38s):
The things that like, I'm thinking about the difference between comedy that hits some comedy that doesn't, and really what it is is that you're there as an audience member and you're watching this person. So you've already agreed to pretend to suspend your disbelief, that this is a real person. And then there's just this very fine line. The person who's performing has either done something that is relatable and surprising and therefore funny, or, or the fact that they are trying to be relatable and funny shows. And that's the thing that we don't like. Right? Isn't that interesting. I never really, I never really broke it down like that.
4 (36m 19s):
That
5 (36m 19s):
I'm even Seinfeld. And I'm not saying, listen, Seinfeld huge. I mean, but think about it. You know, boy, I hate that airline food. That's sort of why, right? You're just saying I hated airline food. You know, OJ, when you pull us a sock out of the dryer and it's just one sock, oh my God, that's me all the time. You're just really connecting with what happens with you. You don't have to necessarily say I'm going to be some super being that's going to make you laugh because I'm doing something amazing. You're saying we are all together. And this is how I navigate the world. And comedy can ensue from that from either status or failing. You know, those are some of the ways.
4 (36m 55s):
And so why, so why did you leave though? Why'd you leave DePaul?
5 (37m 0s):
I get a call that. So I'm in like said it took me so long to get in. So I'm like three, four months into it only. And I got a call from some circus people saying, Hey, we're in Italy now. And Shareco Americana. You know, we're running where the head clowns it, this is Italian circus. We're going to tour all over Italy. So why don't you come with us? We can hire three people. It'll be a five clown. You know, I used to 26 clowns in rangeland, right? This is a five person more European. So way more stage time, you know, more, more to do, come on over. And I'm like, oh, I just got into DePaul. You know, I can't, you know, I can't go, went to Rick Murphy, sat down and laid it out. He goes, you gotta go.
5 (37m 42s):
You have to go. He said, let's do this. How long is the contract? I said, one year. So your contract, he said, finish, you know, the trimester, come back and we'll get you right back in. You don't have to audition what you'll come right back in. So I had a planned out. I'm like, great. I'm going to be able to do Italy, go for a year comeback. And I actually did that with second city. When I went to, I came, I actually joined three times, you know, and ended with the fifth level with a completely different group. So I finished it out. And, and that was hard because with my fellow classmates, like Sean Gunn and validating Val, Amy Bedingfield, we had some really great people that to this day, I go all that would have been fun to, to play in the sandbox with them a lot longer, you know?
5 (38m 24s):
So that was really hard. But I thought I'll be back in a year. Hopefully they'll still be here. And then I'll, I'll, there'll be a year older than me in terms of that, but we'll all be together. So I go to Italy do a month in Naples. This circus has been around for a long time. And for whatever reason, they started having troubles right away. Like Naples is where they make almost all their money. They're there for a month. They make all their money. They go out on tour. Well, nobody came out that year. So they already knew going into the year that they had no money. So we're three months into this contract and me and the new guy, I get called to the guy who doesn't speak any English. He says, I need to see you my office tomorrow morning.
5 (39m 4s):
And that's rare. Right? So me and this guy, Dickie truth, who I was with Ringling brothers. We go, they want us to do more skits. So we sat all night writing like seven, then we'll do this, we'll do this Western skit. And then you're on a horse. Okay. How about a golf skit? Okay. I'm going to build this.
6 (39m 22s):
Wait, can I just tell you to re-up that like, it's brilliant that that's where you went, because I'd be like, oh, I'm fired. And not only am I fired, I'm going to jail. I'm going to jail for something like I'll be in jail. So, but anyway, so you guys get all these skills. Yeah.
5 (39m 38s):
Yeah. And, and right. And like, you probably you're smarter than I am because we went in and met with her with our paper and no English. You're going home fired. Wow. Well, we'll be meeting me. So like we have a contract, like, what do you mean? Like, this is not heard of you don't break a contract. And I guess they gave us enough money to go home. I really, there was, there's a breach. I'm going to get a lawyer. Right. So not scary. Now I'm in Italy. I got no contract. I mean, they let us stay in the, in the, cause it wasn't a train. I was like, well, they could just tell us to go walk the streets. But now had a problem because now I had to go home. The guy who was with the truth, Richard Todd, he actually, he lived in New York.
5 (40m 18s):
He leased his apartment for a year. So he went to Prague. Is that what I'm going to Prague? You know, he had, he ended up sitting there 12 years. Mary talked like 12 years I come home. I got nothing. So I thought, well, I'll just, I'll maybe continue taking second city classes. I'm still only like 20 or so now I'll join DePaul. And next year, I mean, that was still, I really, really enjoyed it. And then two months later, another clown who went to Berkeley, they formed this company called the reduced Shakespeare company where they did all 37 plays to Shakespeare in two hours. And they just replaced two of the three guys and the third guy, the original cast member, Adam Long, he he's from, he went to Pepperdine.
5 (41m 1s):
He was going to London to be with his wife. They called me and said, Hey, can you fill in for eight weeks? Cause they, they knew me renew me. And I said, sure, well that eight weeks turned into 17 years. So I never, I never got back to DePaul because once I joined the RSC, it was only going to be eight weeks. And then the guy ended up staying in London. They opened up a show in the criteria and district criteria theater, sorry in London. And they ran forever and he never came back to America and Piccadilly circus, criterion theater, Piccadilly circus. And then I stayed, I was the American, I was the American cast member.
4 (41m 37s):
And you, you were touring with a reduced Shakespeare company for 17 years
5 (41m 43s):
All over the world. Yeah. All over the world. We did, we did international. So that's where I went to Japan. We did New Zealand, you know, Singapore, Hong Kong, Israel, London, Scotland. Then all of the states, we did sit down tours like Kennedy center in Washington DC. Or we did a lot of college towns, one nighters or just,
6 (42m 7s):
You are the only person we've talked to that has left DePaul to actually work that wasn't cut. That took a leave and never went back because you actually toured the world doing our, yeah.
5 (42m 19s):
And isn't it funny that I go, oh, I wonder if I would have liked to standing out a little more schooling.
4 (42m 24s):
The grass is always greener. You're always wondering. So you never went to college. I mean you never fit, you never graduated from college.
5 (42m 31s):
No. And even Oakton community college. I think I started and stopped five times because I'd come home. I would do something. Hey, do you want to go to Japan? Go to Japan. Came home, started something. Hey, you got an, did Paul come home? You want to go to, you know, Italy came home or do Shakespeare company. So I just, I was always trying to get school in. I was trying to get it in.
4 (42m 52s):
Wow. Okay. And then sometime in the last 10 or 15 years, you had a traumatic event, your wife passed away and you wrote a book about it. So can you tell us?
5 (43m 3s):
Yeah, so that was so I'm in the middle of touring and this would be in 2008 and at the time I'll jump, start some and go backwards. We're, we're pregnant with our third child or their daughter. And I'm a week away from going on a tour. That's going to take me to San Francisco, Washington, DC. And I believe Pittsburgh and, and I, and I was gonna miss Molly's birth. I already missed my first daughter's birth Hayley because again, I was on the road nine months out of the year with Rudy's Shakespeare company. And I met Lisa who I met at Oakton community college in a theater class. I met her and she never questioned it. It was one of the reasons we got married. It wasn't when you getting off the road, like she came to Israel.
5 (43m 44s):
When I went there, when Molly was born, we all went to Ireland for, for four months, including Molly. So she never questioned it, but it was a hard life. But we, it was either that or break up. We didn't want to break up. So I already missed Halley's birth. So I'm kind of used to that lifestyle. And she did have previous cancer that we thought was, you know, breast cancer that we thought was taken care of and she was pregnant, not feeling well. So she went to the ER and they came in and I was on the phone with the person getting arrangements for San Francisco. And they came in and said, the cancer is all over your body. And so I literally said, Hey guys, let me call you right back. And among other things that were traumatic, that was the end of my performing career.
5 (44m 26s):
That, that was it. And I didn't know it at the time I hung up the phone and they explained that was in the, in the liver lung bone. It was everywhere. So I, we didn't know if Molly was going to make it, you know, we didn't know if Lisa would, the high-risk doctor said, Hey, you know, I don't know if, you know, if either of them are gonna make it. So we kept doing chemo, they found a Cuban that worked. Lisa was, you know, she was great. She's like, no, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna do this. We're going to keep it going. Cause they did talk about, well, if they terminated the pregnancy, you know, would that, you know, would that help anything? You know, I'd pick my wife and they should know it's estrogen negative, you know, maybe a couple of months.
5 (45m 9s):
So that decision and Lisa's like, well, that's not happening. By the way, you know, stick a needle in my chest, drain the fluid in my heart. Don't put me under, I don't care. You're going to do this. We're going to keep it going. So I took my cues from her, you know, and she was no, let's do this. So to add to that, Lisa's mom was also dealing with cancer and we moved in with her a year prior to help her with her cancer. And now she's in the hospital dying. So this is so I'm going at the same hospital. I'm going from a, from a baby doctor to up to see mom who, their wife amputate her leg to then go to see Lisa for the high-risk doctor then to go get chemo. I mean, my whole year was just, you know, in the hospital, 24 7.
5 (45m 51s):
And you had other children, other girls? Yeah. Yeah. Two other girls at the time. Right? A seven-year-old and a two-year-old. And so my 2008 was that Molly little miracle. Molly was born in March. Her mom passed away in April and then Lisa lost her life in July. That was my 2008. Wow. So in the midst of all that, my brother, which if you knew my brother you'd laugh, cause he works like Sunday night football and you know, and you know, it was kinda like always getting in trouble. He mails me this journal like three months into all this and says, Hey, I heard, if you write your thoughts down, it helps.
5 (46m 31s):
So I would journal while she's getting chemo. I would just journal everything, you know, because I had the mom and there are now her ex-husbands are now flying in trying to help last minute, which was not helpful. And everyone telling me, well, just stay positive. And my guy, I think it's a little deeper than that. It just, there were so many factors that were, you know, people wanted me to do and they would get like mad at me. Like, well you got to go back to acting. I'm like, dad, we're not even thinking about that now. And so we can't be a martyr. I'm like, oh wow. Not being a martyr. I'm being a parent. Like I'm trying to figure this out. And I know I'm jumping around a little, you know, it's almost like they were taking their fears and instilling them into me.
5 (47m 15s):
Well, something happened in mine. I don't want to give up my career. I don't want to give up my life. Like you've got to do it to show me. I, I can't. So
6 (47m 24s):
No. And I think that the thing we've talked about this on the podcast, Matt, and I don't know if you would agree or not, but like when I was going through, not nothing nearly as is like that, but like some stuff with my mom, my mom and my husband both had cancer at the same time. And then, and she passed away and the look in people's eyes was, oh my God, if this can happen to you, it can happen to me, but they don't take it a step further and deal with it. So instead of saying, they say they stop there and go, okay, but that's not going to happen. So let me now just vomit everything back. It's like a direct, you can see it in the, of a person
4 (48m 3s):
And who reads your support the most and not only don't support them, but ask them to support you by making you feel better about whatever choices you may theoretically make in the future. If you theoretically have the same experience. I mean,
5 (48m 21s):
Gina, it's funny that you say that real fast. It just jumping ahead. Years later, years later, I'm at a party and a friend of mine from high school comes up to me and said, and I, once, once Lisa passed, I probably lost 70% of my friends because they didn't know what to do with me. I think that that factory and I had a guy come up to me and said, oh, I should have been there for you. I told you I was there. And exactly what you said. I go, you know, I, I know you're going through this journey. I'm not able to help that. I hear you. Good luck with that journey. I'm not, I'm not there to help you, that you basically brought me out of your life. But I knew, like, I know it was nice to him, but I'm like, I hear you. My, I just can't, you know?
4 (48m 59s):
Yeah. I'm not going to do clean up for you,
5 (49m 3s):
You know? And I was friendly and we still kind of, you know, every once in a while chat. So then briefly, just so then my, so I started writing down and then after she passed, I had this journal and then people come up to me all the time and say, what was it like, how did you deal with it? Because I did use a lot of improv. I mean, I will say a lot of what I taught. I mean, improv not to be too simplistic about it, but it's not having a script and, and saying yes and things. So it helped me because you're not in control. I mean, people who really like to be in control, you go through this experience and you are not in control. You have to accept whatever premise is given to you and you have to go with it. And there are other people that are relying on you and you got to say, all right, how do I, how do I make this better?
5 (49m 46s):
And then that's a horrible thought. She's like, but this isn't better. It's horrible. And so many emotions. So I started to kind of just for my own self, just like taffy just started pulling it and writing out in journal form that nine months from when we're in the hospital to, after she passed. Not, not anything after nine, anything before. And then I finished it. And what I did was I went to Amazon and I found a bunch of people who review memoirs. And I said, I emailed him. I said, you don't know me. I said, that's the point? Can you read this? Because you don't know me if tell me if it's interesting. Cause I want to know if it's just, oh, this is really just mad. If you know Matt, it's great. And so they read it and they gave me a lot of thoughts and I shaped and I ended up self publishing it because they can't make, it said, no, no, I don't know you.
5 (50m 30s):
And this is interesting. This is what you're saying is very straightforward. This is what you went through, right. With two people dying of cancer and a baby on the way, all the stuff she's like, they're like I followed it. So I just self published and into a book.
4 (50m 42s):
Wow. So, and you did that at the same time as you're raising three children by yourself.
5 (50m 49s):
Yeah. Well at that, yeah. Th no, at that time to jump a little bit, I waited, I was doing all of it, but then I was at Lutheran general hospital in the kids were in the good morning program, which I believe in that I go back, I think it's a play on words. Good morning. And I'm like, Are we really doing puns at
4 (51m 14s):
The
5 (51m 14s):
Death of a parent? So I did that. And my three girls met three other girls and they're like, oh, their dad died of brain cancer. And they're just like us. They're the three daughters. So I talked to the mom a little bit and then we would all go out and kind of formed a group. And then, and then one night it all kind of fell apart. And Cheryl and I were the only ones I'm like, well, I got sit her. It's like, I got to sit her. And we just had dinner and talked about, you know, cancer and how they binged on sugar the final days and how they turn on you, which is really difficult because they're bingeing on sugar, they're dying and you're trying to help them. And they're like, you're, you're blocking me. And they're yelling at you and you're you feel horrible cause you have to try to get them to live. And yet they know they just want to comfort themselves and all that shared experience and the waiter kept like we did, you know, the service is really good or the waiter was like, I gotta go back to that table.
5 (52m 2s):
I got to hear this conversation is beyond interesting. And then we dated and then we Brady botched it and married like a year later and six daughters and live in park Ridge, Illinois.
4 (52m 17s):
Great. Yes. And moment you're like, okay. Yeah, this is the given circumstances. And for her to w we, we lost our life partners. We have these three children
5 (52m 28s):
And I'm a big fan of, I know semantics. I'm a big fan of words. It's not moving on. I don't, you know, I, I do think we have a responsibility for people who, you know, let's take the widows and widowers. I think I had to talk about myself. I think I had a responsibility to help people understand, because they did say things that would just drive you crazy. So I try to educate and it's not moving on. You're evolving. I never, you know, even to this day I bought their dad was in the army. I bought a, a frame to put his flag in and we display it probably in the living room. Right. We, we talk about, I, I tell them now as they're teenagers, you know, your dad would be so proud of you, you know, I'm just here to help. I'm not here to replace you. Don't move on. You, you evolve.
5 (53m 9s):
They're not here with you. You can't, it's just, it's complicated, but it's not as simple as move on. So when we got married, we weren't over what happened nor do I want to be or ever be. Right. We decided to evolve into something and let's see where this goes.
6 (53m 26s):
Amazing. So you didn't know that that was going to mark the end of your performing career, but it did. So then when did you pivot to,
5 (53m 36s):
Well, I underestimated how difficult being creative would be. I, I, I will, you know, I will say, I probably thought it would be. I knew that I had a new path. Right. I knew that I was very fortunate to travel the world and have all my experience and be in the circus. Then I went, well, all right, that was then this is now. But I really struggled with, with what was happening next and, you know, for any artists out there and just keep, I know pandemic, keep doing it because it really is fulfilling. And I, and I, I miss it and I, I should have done more to answer your question. A buddy of mine from Notre Dame after a year after Alisa passed away, he said, Hey, look, we're starting an autism center in this place called dairy and Burr Ridge, Illinois.
5 (54m 24s):
We need someone to help build furniture. There's only four employees that may last 30 minutes and it was a bit of a drive, but I said, sure. He's like, you're good at talking to people. You can be at the front desk, help build insurance. And that was in 2009. I'm still there. We have 12 centers over 600 employees. We're building another center in Oak Brook this year, two centers in Georgia. So I'm the director now, client relations. And one thing I was able to do was like three years ago, four or five years ago, I went to and said, we should have a podcast. And they went, we don't know what that is. And we don't understand it. I'm like, I'll make one. So I interview therapists, I interview authors.
5 (55m 6s):
I interview parents. What's it like to have a child on the spectrum? So that, and as a director, client relations, that helps me give that out to parents. And obviously it doesn't just go to our parents and I all over. So that helps the book helped. But then when the book was over, I went, what next? Right. But I'm not going to lie. I struggled with,
6 (55m 23s):
Yeah. So it sounds like let's talk about that because that's, I think a lot of people, including myself there, I went through a period where, when I was a therapist, I, I was literally doing nothing that I felt was fulfilling my creative itch. And it was, I got really depressed and I got really, I didn't even know what was happening. Like I started to feel like, so I guess my question for both of you is do you think that it being an artist and being creative is something that's in our DNA that we must express somehow or we'll get very depressed? Or do you think that you can cover it up with other types of things?
5 (56m 7s):
I think, I think it's organic. You know, when I was sensitive to finish the book with Cheryl and, and I said, she says, why, why do you have to get out there? It was a fair question. Are you trying to relive the past? But no, I'm not trying to relive the past. And I said, you know, show, it's weird. It's like, it's, it's like calling me, like finish this. Like you finished this project like last week. It's something that was just, it felt right to do. And so I think if you see the world and you have anyone who has a vision or a thought or a plan, that's a gift. Right. And I think it's hard to sit on those gifts.
5 (56m 48s):
And I think I look at things and go, oh boy, that'd be great. If it was done like this or a boy that could be, if it could be done like this. And that's where I go back to craft. And I, the farther I've gotten away from performing even more do I respect craft and for my daughter who now wants to get into it a little bit, I'm talking about it. You know, I just listened to an interview at Penn and teller Penn. Who's a clown college graduate, right? He's in Vegas, he's got more money than dirt. He's been doing all these shows. He did an interview and it was so refreshing. He was on this interview. He's like, oh my gosh, I love my Vegas show. I know more now than I've ever known. I'm doing my best work right now. Me and Tyler, we are connecting.
5 (57m 30s):
Here's the guy that's been doing it forever. And you can hear how excited he is, how good he's doing. And I went, that's craft, that's someone who's in it because they love it. And they see it and that will keep them going.
4 (57m 41s):
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Hmm. I don't think I was ever really making that distinction before, but that, that's very interesting to answer your question about, I mean, I, I I've, I've asked late, sometimes I say, yes, it's in your DNA, but then I look at what you and I were trying to get acting, which is pay attention to me. You know, which came from our, from our upbringing. I, what I know is it got informed in me very early that I wanted to perform. And that I was very depressed for the years that I wasn't in any way involved.
4 (58m 22s):
And I think I told you, like, I couldn't see a play. I couldn't, I barely wanted to watch TV or film. It was all just so I had such terrible envy of people who were doing that. Now I don't have necessarily envy because I'm, I'm doing this, but of course now I just want something. I want more as well more. And, and Sean Gunn said this, we did a part two with him last week. No matter how much you work, you want to work more. You want to be doing it all the time. You want to be on the stage all the time or doing the, the movie all of the time. And the days off are not fun.
4 (59m 2s):
That, I mean, maybe you're tired and you need to relax, but it's, it's one of these beasts that the more you feed it, the bigger, it grows in a weird kind of way for you buzzy. Right? I feel like, yeah. I feel like now I'm at a stage where I am open
6 (59m 22s):
To the idea that it, it may look differently than I thought when I was younger in terms of being a creative, however, I must be doing something creative in my life, because like you said, Matt, I do feel one of my gifts, whether it's acting or writing is being of service through creativity. But I don't know exactly at 46, what that's going to look like, but maybe nobody, not a lot of people know, like I don't have a set thing mat where like, I'm like, okay, my thing is blank. And that's what I will do. Like, you know, Penn and teller for the rest of my days will be my show in Vegas. I don't know what it's going to look like yet.
6 (1h 0m 2s):
And it may be a plethora of different things, but I don't know. So, but I do know that I must be doing something creative because that is part of my service legacy to the world. I just don't know what form it's going to take. What about you, Matt? Like, do you know what form, like what you would like your next creative thing to look like? Or is it happening already or
5 (1h 0m 23s):
No, I, I, I don't know what my, you know, do I have an act three left in me? You know, I'm 52, you know, I don't know what, what I find interesting is that in the pandemic, one thing that I do for a year and a half, we had to redo, redo Shakespeare company kind of reunion. Like I mentioned, also the con college one. And I have that every Tuesday for like two years now, we get together on zoom and we play seven card, hold them, Texas hold 'em. And it's just all these artists. And there it's been very difficult to watch my artist, friends, not working now I'm out of the field. So I'm, I'm working and to see the reduced Shakespeare company, not working and saying, well, how are we going to evolve?
5 (1h 1m 5s):
Anyway, it's even in, be more inclusive in, in, in, in, and do more with more diversity with the pandemic. People are going to want entertainment more than ever. People are going to want. You know, I listen to a podcast that talks about podcasts and they say that the creation of podcasts believing that are down and the consumption is up. So less people are making them, but more people want them. So what are we going to, how, and you look at what's going on in the world and people need escape. They need to hear things. They need to think critically. And they need to hear about craft and get back to it. So it's more important than ever that if you have a vision or you have the skillset and the desire to do it, but I don't know what form that's going to take with me.
5 (1h 1m 53s):
And at this point in my life, I don't know. I just, for now, I just have to go with what life presents me. Maybe when the kids get a little older, I five teenagers now. So five of them are teenagers. Maybe they get a little older, but right now, I don't know that animal. Well, we had an old pair, there were eight women in the house, eight women, we have a dog and everyone would say, well, is the dog a boy? And I go, it doesn't matter. Like, what does that mean? Yes, he is. But he's like, who cares? It's like, that's a victory. Like, Let's go, let's go have a cigar. Like, well, what are you talking?
6 (1h 2m 30s):
That's hilarious. Also, I wait, before I forget, I was like, oh, I was going to say, what if your, your, your next act, what if it is going back to the theater school? What if you enrolled at the fucking theater?
4 (1h 2m 42s):
The pool that, I mean, technically the stands you wouldn't even have to audition. Wow. Well, wait. So I have a question about, since you're talking about podcasts, Arthur, clown, podcasts, clown centered podcasts. I don't
5 (1h 3m 7s):
Think that's a great question. I not
4 (1h 3m 9s):
Circus podcasts. That could be an avenue for you. I don't know. I mean, here's the thing, like people have such a, one dimensional understanding for the most part about clowning people, mostly don't know how many centuries old it is and what the origins and how really vital the jester. I don't know if gestures are considered clowns, but how vital the just gesture was to court life, et cetera, et cetera. I think it would be interesting to do kind of like a deep dive into, I mean, and you can personalize it, make it about you and your story and the people that you know, but you know, some, I mean, because honestly, like we're all such clown. Everybody is wearing a mask through life.
4 (1h 3m 50s):
Everybody is doing the bit that they think is going to get them love and affection and attention. We're all just doing it without makeup and big shoes.
5 (1h 4m 0s):
Well, and, and Clowney, and you kinda mentioned, Clowney is, what's interesting about clowning is one of those art forms that you say it and you think of something completely different. And then when you do it, you go, oh, right. I mean, the Marx brothers were doing clowning, you know, better than, you know, Sebastian Maniscalco, you know, his standup, I think has a lot of clowning in it. If you see him, he's a standup from Arlington Heights. Yeah. He's very physical, lots of, lot of movement. I mean, movement and clowning and dance are so integrated. It's like, oh, balloon animals, birthday parties, no it's movement. It's, it's dance. It's facial expression, you know, it's, you know, it's actually, you know, less mask, more extension, get out of who you are just in bigger form, which is a different art forum and saying, I'm going to be something else you typically want to, unless you're a character, you want to be yourself, but even amplified.
5 (1h 4m 56s):
So
6 (1h 4m 59s):
Which could get into tricky territory in terms of like being, having your, you know, people talk about method acting, but like, what if your clown like, could take over? Like, what if you're, I mean, obviously we got to joker and stuff and that whole situation in terms of that, but like, did you, do you see people lose themselves and they're clowning and become like the clown and like do weird.
5 (1h 5m 22s):
Yeah. So what you don't want it to. So I see them use it as an excuse, just to be not a very nice person. Right. That's you sure they go, oh, and let's talk about the joke. Right? The joke would be one where I'm, it's just an excuse. I'm going to kind of hide behind this, but it's really who I am, but oh, it's, it's, it's the clowning. So yeah, there's always, you know, and even, even in clown college, I think some of the most talented people in there didn't get a contract and they were blown away and I'm like, yeah, but you're, you, you gotta live in it. You gotta, when we lived in a train, it was a three and a half by six. That's what I lived for a year and a three and a half by six room. That was my room. Or you got to live in a room, you had to work with 25 people. You got to go city to city, you have to get along. And if that personality that you're talking about about, if it doesn't work out, then they don't want you on the, on the train.
5 (1h 6m 6s):
So luckily my experience was those people got, did get weeded out and con college and the people that made it on to the circus, that was a much healthier collaborative environment, which really, you know, was the start for me working, you know, working with, with people ensemble like weekly, second city. When I had audition first, w when I finished the training center, you have to audition horrible experience. Horrible, because the audition is all about making yourself look good. So you can get on. That's absolutely counterintuitive. Everything you learned in the class, because you want to showcase yourself. We should almost teach a class, okay.
5 (1h 6m 48s):
In this class, you're going to do improv. And all you're going to do is make everyone else look bad and you look good because we're supposed to follow these rules in improv. You're supposed to work with team. You're supposed to bounce off and then you audition and everyone's trying to get a laugh. And then you look stupid because no, one's finding the rules and it's chaos. And I found that a very unsettling experience because, and not that I'm naive, but it really, I wasn't trained for that.
6 (1h 7m 12s):
Well, it's gross. It becomes like Lord of the flies on stage. It's, it's disgusting. And it's also, it is it's counter it's counterintuitive. And it's like, everyone just wants to be on Saturday night, live at that point. And everyone's really to kill somebody to do it. And meanwhile, you've talked to people that get outside that live and they're like, oh, most of them are like, it was the worst. It's just, it's fog. That's the entertainment industry. But I think you should have a podcast too. And I think it should be called this fucking clown. That's good. Oh, I like that.
5 (1h 7m 46s):
Well, yeah. I want to address one thing real quick. And just when we go back to Lisa A. Little bit, you know, a couple of weeks ago, you guys were talking about having an advocate. I just want to chime in my 2 cents, especially on my thing, going through the medical thing, boy, do people need advocates? And if you have a loved one, that's in a hospital for a long time, nurses are amazing, but they forget, and they may be down on their medications and they may be. So I'm not sure. I like the, no one needs an advocate. Boy, do we need advocates? And especially, Hey, the, the circulation things aren't on her legs and she's been sitting, oh, I forgot. I need an advocate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just
4 (1h 8m 27s):
We'll have to end it in a couple of minutes. But before we do, I just wanted to circle back to your, to your mom, your, your mom really pushed to this clown college. And then she was really surprised when it was, does she have performance desires that maybe she didn't attend to, that she puts on to you?
5 (1h 8m 46s):
We had in our school and we still talk, I was just talking at a, at a party last week from some guys who I went to grammar school with our grammar school, which Catholic school was shut down for two weeks. This was back in the seventies and the eighties shut down for two weeks. And then we put on what's called festival and they would turn, we think about it. Now it's mind blowing. They would turn the classrooms into stages and they would build stages and like eight of the classrooms. And it would be so attended to Jim was the big show who got the big show and groups of friends would be the performers. These are, non-actors not hire professionals. And it went for five years. They made so much. Now it's all casino night and Gail up.
5 (1h 9m 28s):
But back then the amount of time. So not only were my parents in festival with their group of five friends in a show, I'm running lights as a seventh grader. You know, so I remember those days and, and there were totally, you know, my dad singing, you know, Jim Croce, Leroy brown, and I just would do silly things and people loved it because it's your own friends doing shows who aren't really performers. And I see Hayley, who's my 21 year old who now wants to get into voice acting cartoon and acting. And she started to take classes at second city while she, she would come with me sometimes to Springfield or Iowa.
5 (1h 10m 10s):
And they would let her run crew backstage, you know, as a, as a fifth grader. And she's handing props and, and doing all of that and, you know, went to Ireland. And now she has, I think a lot of it too, we talked DNA. I think a lot of it is experience like, you know how to use your and what you see, and then you thinking, and then you train your mind to think differently. And that's where the art comes down. Yeah. Yeah.
4 (1h 10m 32s):
Okay. Matt, where can people find you? Yes. And your book?
5 (1h 10m 37s):
Well, so yeah, I guess if, so, my podcast is very specific to autism. So if anyone is dealing with autism in their life, navigating it, mainly younger parents who are trying to figure it all out, it's called the, by your side autism podcast, by your side as the name of our company, right? It's same iTunes, Spotify, Amazon music. So buyer side, autism podcasts, and then the book is on Amazon. It's yes. And it's a lot of people confused by the title, but it came to me. Yes. And I have this premise, what am I going to do with it? Because saying no, and saying, I hate the world and saying, I'm mad at God that didn't it for me. I just didn't know what to do with that. So I had to take my improv skills and say yes.
5 (1h 11m 18s):
And now, so yes. And is, is the name of the book. Other than that, I park Ridge, you know, working in an autism center,
4 (1h 11m 26s):
Hit them up, everybody. Thank you, Matt. This has been a great conversation.
5 (1h 11m 31s):
I mean, especially now, you know, like I said, I miss it, keep going. This is it's so needed. And I, and I know podcasting and you don't get the feedback you should. I I'm telling you it's important. I know it may not seem like creating art and, and helping everyone figure things out. It's so important. Yay.
4 (1h 11m 57s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <em></em> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina <em></em> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.