1 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:07,580 [CLAIRE] Welcome to Talking Postgres. 2 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:13,140 I'm your host, Claire Giordano, and in this podcast, we explore the human side of Postgres, 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:18,580 databases, and open source, which means we focus on why do people who work with Postgres do 4 00:00:18,620 --> 00:00:20,380 what they do, and how did they get there? 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,180 I want to say thank you to the team at Microsoft for sponsoring this community conversation 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,740 about Postgres. And I'd like to introduce today's guest, Dawn Wages. Dawn has worked in the Python 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,960 developer community for more than nine years. She currently serves as chair of the board of 8 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:43,240 directors for the PSF, the Python Software Foundation. And for about three years, Dawn 9 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:49,800 served as a Python Community Advocate at Microsoft in the Developer Division in Scott Hanselman's 10 00:00:49,820 --> 00:00:56,500 org. Scott is VP of Open Source and Developer Communities at Microsoft. And quite recently, 11 00:00:56,630 --> 00:01:03,000 Dawn took on a new role as Director of Community and Developer Relations at Anaconda. And for as 12 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,100 long as Dawn has been a programmer, she's been volunteering in the Django community, 13 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:11,940 organizing conferences, and more. So Dawn, welcome. 14 00:01:12,539 --> 00:01:14,240 [DAWN] Thanks so much for having me. 15 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:16,840 I'm thrilled and I'm a fan of the podcast. 16 00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:34,140 [CLAIRE] I'm glad to hear that. Obviously, you've been in Django for a while, and it's true, I think, that a lot of Django and Python developers really like Postgres, which is the perfect segue into today's topic, which is "Why Python developers just use Postgres". 17 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:44,260 And in the new book you're writing, which I believe your working title is Domain Driven Django, there's even a chapter that's currently called Just use Postgres. Am I right? 18 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:44,940 [DAWN] Yes, 19 00:01:45,540 --> 00:01:47,820 and the tone of voice is a soft recommendation from friend to friend. 20 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,340 [CLAIRE] In that chapter or in the whole book? 21 00:01:54,740 --> 00:02:00,640 [DAWN] In that chapter, but I guess that's also the vibe of the whole book. 22 00:02:01,020 --> 00:02:05,100 A lot of it is very practical and comes from years of consulting 23 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,000 and also just hallway chat during conferences. 24 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:14,200 Just use Postgres is a common adage. 25 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:21,560 [CLAIRE] Well, what I found really interesting, I tried to do my research because we met while you were still at Microsoft. 26 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:30,740 And I was fascinated by this book you're writing and this chapter and how you feel about Postgres and why you feel that way about this database. 27 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,060 So that's why I invited you on the show. 28 00:02:33,130 --> 00:02:35,980 But I had to do some research because we don't know each other that well. 29 00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:45,360 And as I did the research, one of the things I learned is that you are self-taught and community-taught as a Djangonaught, as a programmer. 30 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:57,420 And so what that means is this affinity for Postgres, like somehow you too picked it up along the way in your journey to become a developer. 31 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:06,620 [DAWN] Yes. So the community taught is, I feel very fortunate that I learned Python through conferences. 32 00:03:07,140 --> 00:03:09,680 So I am absolutely a Django dev. 33 00:03:10,020 --> 00:03:15,060 I think we could probably have like a tally counter on the number of times I say Django in this podcast. 34 00:03:16,740 --> 00:03:21,740 And I started in 2016 at DjangoCon US when it came to Philadelphia. 35 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,440 I was, I don't know, we could say it was down on my luck, but I was an analyst. 36 00:03:28,620 --> 00:03:34,160 I was struggling to keep a job that really respected me and made me feel empowered. 37 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,020 I did SQL and I was learning Python. 38 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:40,520 And I really liked the data analytics space. 39 00:03:40,610 --> 00:03:45,680 But then when I stumbled upon Django, I just fell in love with the community. 40 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,960 And really I like to say that I also learned through osmosis. 41 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:58,020 So I just made really smart friends and and learned through that. 42 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:00,400 And it was the same with Postgres. 43 00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:13,780 There are lots of Postgres consultancies and also Postgres contributors who show up to Python conferences, give open source talks and are really part of that open source ethos. 44 00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:17,040 And were really generous with their knowledge. 45 00:04:17,630 --> 00:04:20,959 And I think that's not just an experience that I've had. 46 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:22,660 It's across the whole community. 47 00:04:22,750 --> 00:04:27,920 I think it's really easy to pick up Postgres because there's so many friends around who also use it. 48 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:29,940 And giving back to the community. 49 00:04:30,220 --> 00:04:36,500 I mean, documentation is one of the key ways to make sure that you have easy access and onboarding to your tools. 50 00:04:36,970 --> 00:04:42,460 And I think the Python documentation for Postgres is really unmatched. 51 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,580 [CLAIRE] Why do you think that is? 52 00:04:49,260 --> 00:04:55,000 I mean, obviously, you probably weren't involved yet when it was first created, I'm imagining. 53 00:04:54,660 --> 00:04:56,320 So I'm asking you a history question. 54 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:58,220 [DAWN] Yeah, I don't know. 55 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,620 I can do it from my vantage and then we can infer from the history. 56 00:05:02,050 --> 00:05:22,960 But I think the ethos that I mentioned, the culture of open source and giving back to the community that runs through Python is really, for good and for bad, I think there is a lot of emphasis on free and low barrier. 57 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:02,600 [CLAIRE] Okay. 58 00:05:23,060 --> 00:05:31,520 [DAWN] Free as in, not free as in cake, but free as in puppy, right? So you have to tend to the new 59 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:41,380 thing that you're creating, and that's going to grow beyond you and have subgroups and open issues 60 00:05:41,540 --> 00:05:49,379 and quests, side quests. And I think that Python and Postgres community really share that ethos on 61 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:57,740 tending to this free resource that is a service for your peers. And you also end up benefiting 62 00:05:57,980 --> 00:06:01,600 from it as well. I mean, reducing friction and having really great documentation 63 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:05,880 is just unmatched. And I think we do very well in that. 64 00:06:06,660 --> 00:06:11,340 [CLAIRE] I think one of the things I've heard about both the Python and the Django communities 65 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,000 is that they have wonderful getting started documentation. 66 00:06:15,870 --> 00:06:22,420 And that may be part of what attracts new developers, self-taught developers, traditionally 67 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:27,520 taught developers to those communities is that focus on docs. 68 00:06:28,460 --> 00:06:33,720 [DAWN] Definitely I'd be interested I know you're hosting but I'd be interested in your 69 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:40,080 perspective on how the getting started docs in Postgres 70 00:06:41,340 --> 00:06:43,800 started, "getting started on the getting started", 71 00:06:44,110 --> 00:06:49,480 but like how did it, how did it get started, or your experience with them? 72 00:06:51,340 --> 00:06:55,420 [CLAIRE] You know, there's, there's two different audiences typically, although you're bringing in a third 73 00:06:55,500 --> 00:06:57,320 audience to this podcast. The two audiences are people who are currently or aspiring, right, 74 00:07:04,020 --> 00:07:10,540 or potential future contributors and developers to the Postgres database. So we've had a lot of 75 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:16,360 Postgres committers and Postgres contributors on the show. But there's also this hope that somebody 76 00:07:16,620 --> 00:07:21,740 listening to it gets inspired to kind of come check out what's going on with Postgres and 77 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:28,740 figure out if they want to become a contributor as well. So that's one audience. Another audience 78 00:07:28,940 --> 00:07:34,220 are just really curious Postgres users. Now, a lot of people who run their apps on this database, 79 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:42,140 their focus is on the application, as it should be, right? But sometimes people want to know more 80 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:47,400 about the team that is behind it or how Postgres came to be the way it is. So that's kind of 81 00:07:47,540 --> 00:07:51,620 another audience. And then you're introducing this third audience, right? I imagine that today's 82 00:07:51,740 --> 00:07:57,020 episode is going to attract more Python developers and Django developers who maybe are curious about 83 00:07:58,820 --> 00:08:06,720 that affinity between those languages and the Postgres database. So for me, in terms of the 84 00:08:07,260 --> 00:08:13,440 documentation within the Postgres contributor community, it's the contributors themselves who, 85 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,480 like, as they make a change, often make the corresponding documentation change. And our 86 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:25,900 docs are known to be really solid, like really, really clear. And there's a big commitment to 87 00:08:26,020 --> 00:08:33,820 them. Every single contributor and developer takes them very seriously. And so that's one 88 00:08:34,180 --> 00:08:39,000 perspective that I have. But I also know that there's a lot of work being done right now 89 00:08:39,300 --> 00:08:45,140 to make it easier for, say, new contributors to join the community. So for example, 90 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:57,480 There's an annual developer event for people who want to work on the database itself, which used to be called PGCon, but now is called PGConf.dev as of last year. 91 00:08:57,660 --> 00:09:02,900 And the next second version of it is happening in May in Montreal, Canada. 92 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:12,500 And there are a bunch of sessions there on the schedule that are patch review workshop or advanced patch feedback sessions. 93 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:28,520 So I try to help people who are budding contributors or want to become contributors in the future, learn more about the project, the processes, the way people get things done, and more. 94 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:32,640 So that's a kind of getting started are all these new sessions. 95 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,580 There was a conference in Prague, a couple of, I guess it was in early February. 96 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:38,860 It's called P2D2. 97 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:46,560 and there too I'll dig up the schedule, see if I can get the exact name, but they had a whole 98 00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:53,160 half-day session focused on nurturing people who wanted to learn more, yeah it was called Intro 99 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:59,000 to Postgres Hacking, and actually it was two half-day sessions so there was the first and the second. 100 00:09:59,279 --> 00:10:06,080 [DAWN] Very cool. We do a bit with our sprints. We put a lot of emphasis on sprints at Python 101 00:10:06,420 --> 00:10:08,860 events, which I think might be a little bit different than a lot of open source conferences 102 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,700 that I see. We'll have a few days and it kind of just provides the snacks and the tables 103 00:10:16,060 --> 00:10:22,200 and the extension cords and let people kind of go wild. And we do have contributing documentations, 104 00:10:22,340 --> 00:10:26,740 But I think we have a lot to learn on that front. 105 00:10:26,940 --> 00:10:29,840 And I'm in constant conversation on how we can improve. 106 00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:31,940 And I really, really, like that approach. 107 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:39,380 I'm going to have to sneak and look at those schedules and maybe poke some people to see 108 00:10:39,380 --> 00:10:41,200 if I can get some feedback on it. 109 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:51,060 [CLAIRE] But I won't say things are perfect in the Postgres world, only because I have some friends who are working on trying to set up even more educational resources. 110 00:10:51,620 --> 00:10:59,600 And so we know that we can always do better and make it easier for people to kind of get started and learn what they need to learn. 111 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:07,080 Last week, I was in Bengaluru, India, for the annual PGConf India conference. 112 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:10,860 It was my first time going to it and there was so much buzz in the room. 113 00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:15,480 And what was really cool is my talk was a beginner's guide on a particular 114 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,480 topic in Postgres and the room was full. 115 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:23,180 There absolutely were people there who were not beginners with Postgres, 116 00:11:23,340 --> 00:11:25,940 but beginners with those particular features in Postgres. 117 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,680 And so I do think there's always an appetite for even more beginner guide 118 00:11:32,020 --> 00:11:32,220 content. 119 00:11:33,460 --> 00:11:34,140 [DAWN] I was just telling a developer advocate that just a few minutes ago, they're intimidated. 120 00:11:40,580 --> 00:11:47,160 It was actually they're working in a different database and they said they needed to brush up before they can feel confident talking about it. 121 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:59,040 And in a different perspective, but kind of the same point you made is that your fresh eyes are really, really valuable and it's an asset. 122 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:13,160 So that kind of I really love on coming on seeing stage presentations from first time speakers or first time to a particular feature or the whole project. 123 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:19,980 Just kind of talking about pain points and giving new perspective on something that people may take 124 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:36,640 for granted or think are really intuitive. 125 00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:27,580 [CLAIRE] All right, so I want to pivot back to the book you're writing for just a second. 126 00:12:28,180 --> 00:12:29,620 Why are you writing it? 127 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:31,260 And who's going to read it? 128 00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:32,720 Who's the target audience? 129 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:43,560 [DAWN] Because I come from a freelancing and consulting background, and because the companies that I work with 130 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:50,740 keep a really great moonlighting policy. So I am able to keep collaborating with my co-founders on 131 00:12:51,360 --> 00:13:01,400 consulting projects. The lens that people use to approach these projects are many times bringing 132 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:08,100 the subject matter expert, for example, you're building accounting software and I'm using a very 133 00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:12,980 typical MVC framework for people who are not familiar with app development. That's model view 134 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:21,480 controller. And there are other frameworks like Ruby on Rails, for example, or .NET 135 00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:27,780 that have their own MVC framework. But it's a way to speed up the development process. 136 00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:36,600 But in that, in simplifying that workflow, you're now bringing the non-technical developers or 137 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:44,320 technical in their own domain, into your coding exercise. And what I like about Domain-driven 138 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:53,980 design, which was created in 2003 and has this couple decades long legacy of trying to simplify 139 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:04,320 approaching technology where you are now putting the onus on the technologist to adopt language 140 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:10,000 and real world behaviors into their code 141 00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:12,280 rather than pushing the code knowledge 142 00:14:13,060 --> 00:14:16,000 onto your customer or client. 143 00:14:16,450 --> 00:14:17,780 So an example of that, 144 00:14:17,780 --> 00:14:19,580 because I said a lot of words, 145 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:21,980 would be like the accounting software 146 00:14:22,180 --> 00:14:22,900 that I mentioned before. 147 00:14:23,940 --> 00:14:27,700 I'm going to tell them why I can't do transactions 148 00:14:28,010 --> 00:14:29,380 the way that they're asking me 149 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:30,840 because there's a race condition. 150 00:14:31,660 --> 00:14:39,020 And I'm going to tell them why Postgres has this feature and this tool, but you have to use it this particular way. 151 00:14:39,530 --> 00:14:47,780 But instead, there are options to front load the work where you are having a lot of introductory and exploratory meetings. 152 00:14:48,020 --> 00:15:13,100 You are designing diagrams and having overlap on context and separation of context as well, where you can start doing a lot of that heavy lift at the front and remove a lot of the effort for your client to have to know the technical details or have to have delays in development and programming. 153 00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:24,260 It'll take a couple hundred pages to explain in full detail, but I appreciate the practice and getting on it. 154 00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:30,140 I am writing the book right now and I am going to be on a speaking tour afterwards. 155 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,580 So we'll keep practicing the pitch. 156 00:15:33,580 --> 00:15:38,480 But hopefully that jives with understanding and the expectation of the audience. 157 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,160 [CLAIRE] So who is the target audience for your book though is it someone who 158 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,860 already knows a lot about Django, is it someone who's new to Django, who who is the person 159 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:50,300 who's going to go buy it 160 00:15:51,180 --> 00:15:53,580 [DAWN] I'm hoping to keep it really broad. 161 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,580 So there is an opening section 162 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,420 where we cover domain-driven design in general terms. 163 00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:03,800 And then you can skip to a section 164 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,920 where if you're starting your first Django application, 165 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,339 because Django and other MVC frameworks 166 00:16:10,220 --> 00:16:13,460 will supercharge your development experience. 167 00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:16,640 They're what people reach for with very little 168 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:18,500 or very advanced developer experience 169 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:19,920 because they want to just do it really fast. 170 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,060 So I'll kind of talk about the components of Django 171 00:16:25,380 --> 00:16:27,280 and how you get your first application started. 172 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,540 And then the last portion of the book 173 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,640 is connecting domain-driven design competencies 174 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,599 with features that actually exist in Django 175 00:16:38,260 --> 00:16:44,060 or don't exist. For example, there's a concept about service layers that doesn't fit very well 176 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:52,880 within Django, but exist in domain-driven design. And I can tell you how to set up your project so 177 00:16:52,880 --> 00:17:00,340 you can be cognizant of the service layer. And that also transcends to Postgres. So the domain-driven 178 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:09,280 design, you're starting out with client terminology at the top of your planning. And that should go 179 00:17:09,339 --> 00:17:15,040 all the way to down to the way that you're naming your databases and the interaction between your 180 00:17:15,199 --> 00:17:23,000 tables. So the answer to your question, which I twice almost evaded, is it should be everyone but 181 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,000 the consultant or the person who wants to move fast and work with people who don't have technical 182 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,620 expertise or programming expertise and have their own domain and technology, they all could 183 00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:35,140 do very well with this. 184 00:17:35,210 --> 00:17:41,200 So hopefully project managers, program managers, CTOs, and individual contributors who are 185 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,380 just really ambitious on understanding a full-scale application. 186 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:45,280 [CLAIRE] Okay. 187 00:17:46,120 --> 00:18:01,040 So to the extent that a lot of the audience for this podcast is, at least historically, you're going to bring some new listeners to the show, I think, but has been people who work with Postgres, either as contributors or as users. 188 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:19,200 And one of the things I was hoping to do, and you have to help me with this because it's your skills that I'm relying on, is to help all those Postgres people have more empathy with how someone who's a Python developer or Django developer thinks about the database. 189 00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:24,200 Like, are there any common misunderstandings or common gotchas? 190 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:34,980 One thing you've already given me is that I want to go check out the documentation about Postgres that's in the Python documentation. 191 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:42,780 I'm really curious to see what the Python world is teaching people about Postgres. 192 00:18:43,820 --> 00:18:47,640 But maybe there's more empathy to be had or more perspective you can share. 193 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,320 [DAWN] There is always room for more empathy, I think we share that perspective, and that's 194 00:18:53,640 --> 00:19:02,420 one of my favorite things about both you and Aaron. So to answer, that's a good question. 195 00:19:03,150 --> 00:19:10,480 So, I really enjoy or I like the consistency that happens between projects whether you're doing 196 00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:18,000 Django, which I said a lot, or doing Flask or Bottle or other types of Python applications, 197 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:26,280 you're going to use the database connector Psycopg. And it allows for consistency across, 198 00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:33,800 so it's transferable from one Python type project to another, as long as you know about the features 199 00:19:34,180 --> 00:19:38,940 that Postgres offers to suit your use case. 200 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,440 There's some things that I would love to, 201 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,360 that may not have translated to the Python community yet 202 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:50,800 that I know exist with non-relational databases 203 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:59,140 and hyperscaling and event-driven architecture patterns 204 00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:02,160 that are going to need to be supported by your database layer. 205 00:20:02,860 --> 00:20:14,040 And I think turning up the volume on some of those features so people don't immediately or only think of Postgres as a relational database, nothing more. 206 00:20:14,140 --> 00:20:21,080 If you just need a very, very big table or multiple very big tables that relate to each other, Postgres is great. 207 00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:23,400 And then for everything else, you should start, you should explore. 208 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,480 I know Postgres does more, and I'm excited to kind of continue to explore those. 209 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,080 And I'm actually learning some more about it so I can put them in the book. 210 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,140 [CLAIRE] I'm glad you mentioned Psycopg. 211 00:20:35,220 --> 00:20:42,880 I know that's something that has come up a lot in Paolo Melchiorre's talks that I've seen. 212 00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:43,720 He will often give talks about Python and Postgres together, 213 00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:54,200 so now it's making it into the show notes which is great. So there's a question on the chat which 214 00:20:57,740 --> 00:21:03,040 I was listening to a podcast earlier today, you were on a podcast with someone named Will 215 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:04,640 and Carlton and it was a couple years ago and you talked about Django and Wagtail and Gatsby [Yeah.] 216 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:16,939 but one of the things I loved is you also talked about your approach to networking 217 00:21:17,620 --> 00:21:23,000 and you said, "yeah, networking sounds like such a professional term, but really I just make really 218 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:29,100 smart friends," which I thought was fantabulous. Cause that kind of explains my entry into Postgres 219 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:35,720 as well. I'm just very lucky. I've made some really smart friends. But one of the questions, 220 00:21:35,870 --> 00:21:39,920 and I'm wondering if you or any of your smart friends have experienced this, Tristan was asking 221 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:45,839 about whether anyone has done the Psycopg 2 to Psycopg 3 transition. Have you heard 222 00:21:45,860 --> 00:21:47,200 anything from people about that? 223 00:21:48,820 --> 00:21:49,140 [DAWN] No, no I haven't—I love coming to things like this because that gives me 224 00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:58,160 new things to research and it will definitely make it into the book, 225 00:21:58,220 --> 00:22:04,640 but maybe I'll do some blogging on it as well and see what my really smart friends have seen. 226 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:06,280 But I've not seen that yet. 227 00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:12,800 And I'd love to know if they want to follow up with their experience with it, if they've heard anything. 228 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,220 [CLAIRE] So in the book that you're writing, the chapter of Just use Postgres, is it written yet? 229 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,340 Or is it just the chapter title and you still have to dive in and do the work? 230 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,960 [DAWN] It's a little bit of this, and a little bit of that, so I definitely have the chapter title 231 00:22:28,980 --> 00:22:35,400 and some outlines and then I filled in some more thoughts so a lot of it is dependent upon 232 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:43,880 the domain-driven design concepts and then as they flow through the application and then eventually 233 00:22:43,980 --> 00:22:52,580 get to the database layer. So it will also continue to evolve as the book evolves. Some of the things, 234 00:22:52,630 --> 00:23:00,140 like I mentioned a couple of them, but event-driven design is an important one. We're also talking 235 00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:07,799 about transactions. And then I do have a demo that I'm building for a very high level 236 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,640 AI application, it's just like an agent, a chat agent, 237 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,420 which is all the rage these days. 238 00:23:15,860 --> 00:23:19,500 But there's really cool demos and architecture patterns 239 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,500 that are happening, but then they rely on NoSQL database 240 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,800 and I'm working through doing that with Postgres 241 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,360 and trying some new features 242 00:23:29,420 --> 00:23:30,380 that I've not played with before. 243 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:31,440 [CLAIRE] Okay. 244 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,360 You know, there's two interesting full circles here that I'll throw out. 245 00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:38,580 One is on the chat. 246 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,620 Tristan just mentioned that the postgresql.org website, 247 00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:45,440 which is the community website where you can get lots of information 248 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,940 about the open source project, 249 00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:49,640 it is written in Django. 250 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:58,440 So any Django developers that are listening that also want to kind of connect more with the Postgres community, maybe there's an opportunity there [Mm-hmm.] 251 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:10,680 And the second full circle I want to mention is that on the very first episode of this podcast, Talking Postgres, which had a different name back then. 252 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,640 When we first started, it was called Path to Citus Con. 253 00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:21,520 But we had two guests in that episode, and one of them was Simon Willison, who is one of the co-creators of Django. 254 00:24:21,740 --> 00:24:25,100 [DAWN] Yeah, he's also on the chair, 255 00:24:25,460 --> 00:24:28,380 he's one of the board members on the Python Software Foundation. 256 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:36,300 And I came to Django obviously much after they've gotten Django started and it was a little 257 00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:37,060 bit intimidating. 258 00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:39,860 It was like, "Oh, there's a celebrity amongst us." 259 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:49,000 And similar to the point that you made of just making really cool friends, people I've seen 260 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:52,280 similarly in the Postgres community are just incredibly accessible. 261 00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:59,120 I remember one of my first lunches or breakfast days at DjangoCon, I sat down and I was like, 262 00:24:59,340 --> 00:25:03,840 This framework is fantastic. No notes. There's nothing they can improve upon. 263 00:25:04,580 --> 00:25:14,640 Meanwhile, there are likely active discussions on architecture patterns and considerations and hanging issues that have not been addressed yet, 264 00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:17,360 and people are up in arms about. 265 00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:20,740 We have a very, from my understanding, 266 00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:27,060 we have a very thoughtful and amicable conversation 267 00:25:27,060 --> 00:25:33,880 and debating process on architecture and feature additions. 268 00:25:34,780 --> 00:25:39,460 But there is a magic that happens when you're new 269 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,660 and you don't even see the not-shiny bits of a new program 270 00:25:43,660 --> 00:25:46,140 and can't even figure out how it can improve. 271 00:25:46,650 --> 00:25:56,580 And it's been a really cool journey to see some of the glitter fall off, 272 00:25:57,020 --> 00:26:02,580 but also recognize that I get to add the glitter back on or shine it up more 273 00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:08,420 or whatever the metaphor is. 274 00:26:08,550 --> 00:26:09,740 But that makes it more fun. 275 00:26:09,910 --> 00:26:10,840 I get to jump in. 276 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:16,040 I get to see deficiencies in the open source framework that I'm using or the tool that I'm using. 277 00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:23,120 And I get to be one of the people who makes it better and make someone saunter up on the first day and go, this is perfect. 278 00:26:23,330 --> 00:26:24,100 I see no notes. 279 00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:30,080 [CLAIRE] Yeah, I mean, that's part of the joy of being new to something, right? 280 00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:38,200 Is that you're not aware of all the warts, and the bugs, and the dust, and the dirt. 281 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:39,860 But you get there. 282 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,900 And then you hopefully are in a position to help make things even better. 283 00:26:45,820 --> 00:26:52,520 In the show notes, someone just dropped the actual link to the source code for the postgresql.org website. 284 00:26:52,940 --> 00:26:56,640 So you can go take a peek after we're done with the recording. 285 00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:01,820 With regards to Simon Willison, though, that particular episode was called Working in public [on open source]. 286 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:10,860 And just shout out to how fun it is to talk to him about the way in which he is such a prolific blogger and shares his learnings. 287 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:19,520 He's got like a Today I Learned themed blog where, I asked him, well, actually, no, I complimented him and thanked him. 288 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,900 I said, this is so fascinating that you share all these learnings for the rest of us. 289 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,780 It's so altruistic of you. 290 00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:29,700 I don't know if I use that word, but it's a good word. 291 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:33,260 And he said, "oh, no, I don't do it for any of you. 292 00:27:33,290 --> 00:27:34,060 I do it for me. 293 00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:35,700 I do it for future Simon. 294 00:27:36,340 --> 00:27:43,980 So that, you know, two years from now, six months from now, three years from now, when I'm trying to figure something out, it's all documented already. 295 00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:46,340 And I can just go look it up in the blog." 296 00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:47,880 [DAWN] I love that. 297 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,460 [CLAIRE] I thought that was really cool. 298 00:27:50,510 --> 00:27:52,600 And I wish I personally did more of that. 299 00:27:53,940 --> 00:27:57,340 Because you do make things better for, in my case, future Claire. 300 00:27:57,779 --> 00:27:58,840 [DAWN] We all could aspire to have a little more Simon, but he sets this very high bar. 301 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,500 [CLAIRE] That he does. Okay. So, you started to delve into this, but I want to see if we can go a little 302 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:16,740 bit deeper for a few minutes. Tell me more about how you yourself have worked with Postgres. [Yeah.] 303 00:28:16,740 --> 00:28:22,920 I don't know if you remember your first encounter with it, or the first time you chose it for 304 00:28:23,060 --> 00:28:29,180 one of your consulting projects, and whether you had likes or dislikes or surprises, I'm just fishing 305 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:28,480 for a story. 306 00:28:30,060 --> 00:28:35,460 [DAWN] So like many Python developers, it was chosen for me. 307 00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:39,280 It was what we just happened to be using on the project. 308 00:28:39,540 --> 00:28:47,900 I started in, it actually was my first Django Girls tutorial. 309 00:28:48,550 --> 00:28:55,480 So it was deploying my first project and I'm upgrading from SQLite to Postgres. 310 00:28:55,900 --> 00:29:08,080 So I can have not just a persistent database, but also one that is going to be easily deployed and not write over itself because I make a newbie mistake. 311 00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:18,480 And although with a note that I probably did that a couple of times anyway. 312 00:29:20,620 --> 00:29:33,780 And I think one of the confusing parts in the very beginning for me was actually starting with the psql CLI. 313 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:53,680 And when you're learning about CLIs and psql at the same time, and I never used a GUI for it, and now I'm really excited to use GUIs, especially there's an extension in VS Code that has a really cool Postgres GUI. 314 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,940 And I hear through the grapevine that there's more to come with cool GUIs for Postgres. 315 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,080 [CLAIRE] Really? You do, huh? 316 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,080 [DAWN] I hear very good things, and I'm so excited. 317 00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:06,700 [CLAIRE] I couldn't possibly comment. 318 00:30:09,199 --> 00:30:16,780 [DAWN] So that's I think that's a really cool journey from where I was in around 2015-16 319 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:24,800 to now is that there's a ton more support and also old habits die hard, I still go into 320 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:32,899 psql to figure out my my tables and its permissions and to fiddle with things and create new users and 321 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:42,040 things like that. But it was, I think there's opportunity perhaps to maybe grow that 322 00:30:42,660 --> 00:30:48,460 interface for newbies like me, if they still want to use the CLI but it's a little bit daunting or 323 00:30:48,540 --> 00:30:54,760 they'd like to have more, what is it what is it called, feedback in the terminal on what you're 324 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,040 doing and have maybe more verbose for example. 325 00:31:01,740 --> 00:31:07,400 [CLAIRE] Any other memories of your first encounter with Postgres? 326 00:31:07,380 --> 00:31:10,720 [DAWN] I remember forgetting my password so many times. 327 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,080 What is my Postgres user password? 328 00:31:17,460 --> 00:31:22,920 But, you know, you just kind of push through some of these things and you keep the notes, 329 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,560 the Simon Willison-esque notes somewhere in a markdown somewhere. 330 00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:32,780 and it's not as hard the next time you do it. 331 00:31:33,630 --> 00:31:37,580 But yeah, I think there's just a learning curve 332 00:31:37,630 --> 00:31:40,900 to kind of understanding the database and accessing it 333 00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:47,840 and then also creating these new features that exist in it. 334 00:31:49,780 --> 00:31:52,720 [CLAIRE] So I want to pivot if we can because one of the things you told me before we hopped on the show 335 00:31:55,980 --> 00:32:01,220 here today is you were telling me about the Python Developer Survey. And I do think about surveys 336 00:32:04,340 --> 00:32:12,360 sometimes as a really interesting way to gather from a broad set of people a perspective on a 337 00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:18,420 technology or a project. And particularly when it's an open source project that's distributed 338 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,520 around the world, right? It's not like it's all in one company or all in one team. 339 00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:26,680 So tell me more about the Python Developer Survey, please. 340 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,800 [DAWN] Yeah, I think it's the, so it is definitely the staple survey. 341 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,440 It's run by JetBrains. 342 00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:40,560 And they have this cool relationship with the Python Software Foundation where they also 343 00:32:41,180 --> 00:32:45,320 will do like some type of donation or something, something around the same time that they're 344 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:45,940 doing the survey. 345 00:32:46,640 --> 00:33:03,480 But they provide the infrastructure to be able to tap into the community and hear what they're using and their use cases and their experience level and whether or not they're upgrading to the next version. 346 00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:06,340 And so maybe it could be interesting to the audience. 347 00:33:06,660 --> 00:33:13,780 But if people are interested in what Python version people are using, most of us are hanging around 3.11. 348 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,140 3.13 just came out last year. 349 00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:21,060 Python 3.14 is going to be coming out this October. 350 00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:30,000 So kind of understanding that we have annual releases, which may not be common for all languages. 351 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:32,900 We're kind of on that cycle, 352 00:33:33,540 --> 00:33:43,880 and that most people are maybe two releases behind and then an enterprise will be a full 353 00:33:44,170 --> 00:33:52,500 release behind that when they're doing well, and then like if you're on 3.9 I want to 354 00:33:53,340 --> 00:33:59,699 hug and shake you, but you'll even find people who are 355 00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:01,840 rushing to 356 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,560 upgrade from deprecated versions. 357 00:34:07,060 --> 00:34:08,240 [CLAIRE] Yeah well it's "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is kind of a thing in the human existence 358 00:34:13,860 --> 00:34:19,120 and so there are plenty of, I think understandable, scenarios in which people don't upgrade because 359 00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:25,760 it's working and they have other bigger problems to deal with. And then, but what that does is it 360 00:34:27,110 --> 00:34:32,800 does put you in fire drill mode when there's no time left and you have to do it now. 361 00:34:33,319 --> 00:34:39,139 [DAWN] Exactly. And I think one of the things I really like about Postgres and then also the Django 362 00:34:39,419 --> 00:34:45,500 community is that we take security concerns very seriously. And there is this time period where the 363 00:34:45,740 --> 00:34:51,440 security concern that's reported is a bit secret, but until they fix it, they can patch it. 364 00:34:52,040 --> 00:35:01,800 But really upgrading to those patches to support the security fixes are, I've been very lucky 365 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,340 that I've not come into any of those issues in production. 366 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:11,900 But the fact that there are experts who are leading the charge makes me feel so much 367 00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:14,480 more comfortable with the both the communities. 368 00:35:14,980 --> 00:35:21,200 And so also to the contributors who are maybe listening for Postgres, I appreciate you. 369 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,100 Thank you. 370 00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:27,720 [CLAIRE] Okay, now we'll pivot to PyCon. 371 00:35:28,860 --> 00:35:37,760 So PyCon is probably one of my most favorite conferences that's not a Postgres conference per se. 372 00:35:38,490 --> 00:35:48,720 Although, obviously, when I've been to PyCon in the past, I was wearing a Postgres hat or Citus hat because I used to work at a small Postgres startup called Citus Data. 373 00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:52,260 So I went there with Postgres in mind and there were talks, 374 00:35:52,330 --> 00:35:58,640 there were talks, like you were saying, about how to use Postgres, how to scale with Postgres that were geared toward Python developers. 375 00:35:59,220 --> 00:36:01,380 But anyway, it is so much fun. 376 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,920 Are you going this year? 377 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:10,300 [DAWN] I am. It's going to be in Pittsburgh. It'll be, let me make sure I get the dates right... 378 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,320 [CLAIRE] It's in mid-May sometime, I feel. 379 00:36:16,339 --> 00:36:22,520 [DAWN] Yes, 14th through 15th, or excuse me, 14th through 22nd. 380 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,920 So if you want to catch any of the tickets are on sale, the full conference schedule just was released. 381 00:36:29,580 --> 00:36:39,080 If you want to jump in on a tutorial, Postgres is going to be mentioned in the Microsoft tutorial. 382 00:36:39,450 --> 00:36:43,780 And if you want to learn how to deploy Postgres to Azure, that's an option. 383 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:44,860 There's also a lot of, uh, so the first couple of days are going to be tutorials 384 00:36:50,380 --> 00:36:56,040 and then we have a few days of conference talks, there's also a whole conference 385 00:36:58,559 --> 00:37:09,519 talk, or excuse me, a whole conference lane for Spanish speakers. So if you are a 386 00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:11,600 native Spanish speaker, you will feel at home. 387 00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:15,620 And then we have several days of sprints afterwards, 388 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:16,880 which I mentioned before. 389 00:37:18,340 --> 00:37:20,880 If you're not familiar, we all just kind of gather around 390 00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:22,720 and hack on open source. 391 00:37:23,740 --> 00:37:29,540 [CLAIRE] So for anyone who's listening, whether it's for this year or future years, if you are looking, 392 00:37:29,870 --> 00:37:36,760 even if you're a Postgres developer, Postgres user, maybe you're not a Python developer yourself, 393 00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:42,440 but you want to better understand the app developer mindset, the Python developer mindset, 394 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:47,460 I think PyCon is a really great place to do that. The sessions are really high quality. 395 00:37:48,220 --> 00:37:51,060 It's very well organized and it's over a week long. 396 00:37:51,630 --> 00:37:56,660 So the main expo, the main showroom floor, it's only open for what, three days? 397 00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:51,960 [DAWN] Yeah. 398 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,040 [CLAIRE] But there's even more training and tutorials and sessions beyond that. 399 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,140 [DAWN] And that ethos that I was talking about, kind of keeping it very, very open source, 400 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:17,320 similar to the Postgres community. Also, people say that Python is the second best language for 401 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:23,860 everything. And there's a lot of that energy at PyCon. So it's really, I think it attempts to be 402 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:31,740 really accessible with just energies of people being very, very kind and willing to start wherever 403 00:38:31,820 --> 00:38:37,200 you are in your Python journey and then talk you through even the most advanced concepts. I felt very 404 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,660 seen and respected in the Python community. And it's why I stick around. 405 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,780 [CLAIRE] Python is the second best language for everything. 406 00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:48,480 Help me understand that. 407 00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:49,880 Break it down. 408 00:38:50,020 --> 00:38:51,040 What does that mean? 409 00:38:51,619 --> 00:38:59,320 [DAWN] In many cases it's considered maybe like a glue layer for data people, or for application 410 00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:08,800 building, or for platforms. Python is a really good glue language and I think one of the things that 411 00:39:08,860 --> 00:39:17,120 we're seeing with the rise of AI and the commodification of AI and people building a lot of AI forward 412 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:23,100 apps is that you're seeing the merging of a bunch of different worlds and then you're seeing that 413 00:39:23,300 --> 00:39:31,640 Python has come, like exploded in popularity because it is jokingly the second best language 414 00:39:31,780 --> 00:39:37,479 for everything. So if you want a more performant language in the browser, you will probably go for 415 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:47,080 a JavaScript, or TypeScript, an ECMAScript language. But we are working on WebAssembly support for the 416 00:39:47,820 --> 00:39:55,220 default distribution of Python, CPython on PyPI. And that's really exciting. So maybe it's not the 417 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:03,560 first thing that you're going to reach for, for developing in the browser. But the work is there. 418 00:40:03,740 --> 00:40:07,260 There's active channels and workstreams for contribution on that. 419 00:40:07,690 --> 00:40:09,540 And people are really excited about it. 420 00:40:09,940 --> 00:40:14,500 And that's the similar story for a lot of different things with Python. 421 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:21,480 And so I think there's a really fun place to play in for a language group that calls 422 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,840 themselves the second best language for everything. 423 00:40:24,330 --> 00:40:31,280 I don't think we take ourselves particularly seriously, which means we get to have fun and 424 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:31,760 experiment. 425 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:41,220 [CLAIRE] Well, this year, PGConf.dev in Montreal, it feels like it overlaps the date. 426 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,460 So I'm not able to swing two trips in the middle of May. 427 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,080 So I will be at PGConf.dev in Montreal. 428 00:40:48,580 --> 00:40:56,640 But yeah, I look forward to following you online and seeing photos and hearing more about what happens at this year's PyCon. 429 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:56,720 I'm sure it's going to be fun. 430 00:40:57,740 --> 00:40:58,500 It always is. 431 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,000 [DAWN] And we'll be in closer time zones. 432 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:03,840 So when I see your cool posts from Montreal, 433 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,340 I haven't been, I hear the food and the jazz 434 00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:07,860 and the people are wonderful. 435 00:41:09,140 --> 00:41:14,540 So I'm hoping to get up to Montreal and PGConf.dev soon. 436 00:41:15,980 --> 00:41:22,540 [CLAIRE] Okay, so I don't know if you know this, but last month on the Talking Postgres podcast, 437 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:29,500 Robert Haas, who is a senior Postgres committer and major contributor, he's been involved with 438 00:41:29,580 --> 00:41:34,980 the project a long time. He works for EDB. And he recently, last year, last summer, 439 00:41:35,770 --> 00:41:41,520 summer in the northern hemisphere, started a new mentorship program for the Postgres developer 440 00:41:41,860 --> 00:41:45,620 community. And so that's what we talked about. It was an episode that was all about mentorship. 441 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,940 and I don't know if you had a chance to listen in 442 00:41:48,940 --> 00:41:51,200 but I know that mentorship is something 443 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:52,920 that you care about a lot 444 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,580 and you do a lot of. [Yeah.] 445 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,980 I thought we could talk about that 446 00:41:58,980 --> 00:42:00,540 a little bit. 447 00:42:00,030 --> 00:42:00,620 [DAWN] Yeah, definitely. 448 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,900 So, selfishly, we could start with a selfish reason. 449 00:42:06,030 --> 00:42:09,480 I think mentorship makes me a much better developer. 450 00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:15,640 I find myself, for example, the developer advocate, who's been a programmer for years and has recently moved into developer advocacy. 451 00:42:24,460 --> 00:42:28,440 We are going to pair on a new database that she's never used before. 452 00:42:29,540 --> 00:42:56,500 And being able to talk through the issues that I've seen before, go through new documentation or new use case that I just wouldn't have on my desk otherwise, and then chat through how to break it all down into bite-sized pieces and attack it together, really clears up some of my brain space. 453 00:42:56,660 --> 00:43:02,880 And when I return to the work that I was doing before, that's kind of my bread and butter or my nine to five or whatever. 454 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:14,560 I absolutely am directly referencing a lot of the conversations that I have and skills and muscles that I'm building with someone else. 455 00:43:15,540 --> 00:43:28,680 And one of the things that is really important to me is that full loop and letting people know, that I'm working with or mentoring, how valuable their conversation is to me. 456 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:39,420 I can't tell you how many times I've had someone say, "I'm so sorry for taking your time," or "wow, you're so good at unblocking me" from whatever issue, 457 00:43:39,940 --> 00:43:43,420 and really all it was is I provided a safe space for them to talk through. 458 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,600 I'm a very nice, smiley rubber duck. 459 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,460 So mentorship is able to kind of provide some of that. 460 00:43:53,540 --> 00:44:00,780 And in the respect of the previous podcast episode and creating actual formalized mentorship program, 461 00:44:01,660 --> 00:44:07,200 Django launched a mentorship program, I believe two years ago about now, 462 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:17,060 called Djangonaut Space, where we have this, where we play on the whole space theme, where we have 463 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,980 Djangonauts played off of the astronaut naming. I don't know if that's a pun. I'm terrible at puns. [Right.] 464 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:33,659 And then we have navigators and captains. And so we put people into small cohorts of like maybe 465 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:40,940 five or so people. We'll have a navigator who is an expert contributor in the community who is 466 00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:47,620 leading each group. And then there'll be a captain who runs in parallel to the navigator and Djangonaut 467 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:53,840 relationship where they are cheerleaders and they also help kind of direct their path of like 468 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,920 if they need to be connected to additional people for mentorship or for subject matter expertise. 469 00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:02,140 And so we've found a lot of success. 470 00:45:02,340 --> 00:45:06,980 We've had maybe four or five cohorts of it so far. 471 00:45:07,410 --> 00:45:17,040 And really, each time we have such great reviews, we get new contributors to the whole 472 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:17,640 ecosystem. 473 00:45:17,650 --> 00:45:22,020 We don't even just focus on Django, although that is the main goal. 474 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,220 And it seems to really inspire a lot of people to jump in. 475 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:34,560 [CLAIRE] Interesting. So instead of just the traditional one-on-one, which to be fair, what Robert Haas and 476 00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:39,400 Melanie and others have set up for the Postgres Mentorship Program, there is the one-on-one 477 00:45:39,700 --> 00:45:44,240 pairing in the first cohort. But then they also have these hacking workshops, 478 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:45,980 which are a bigger group. 479 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,580 And I don't remember the exact number, 480 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,460 but it feels like maybe 30-ish people. 481 00:45:50,780 --> 00:45:52,960 People can sign up just for that one month 482 00:45:52,980 --> 00:45:55,040 and they all will watch the same talk 483 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,480 and then get together and talk about it 484 00:45:57,660 --> 00:45:59,060 and learn from each other, 485 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,020 explore questions, things like that. 486 00:46:01,660 --> 00:46:02,000 So they have those. [Yes.] 487 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:03,880 But this is interesting, 488 00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:05,380 this notion of five people 489 00:46:05,740 --> 00:46:07,340 and people wearing different hats 490 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:08,540 and having different roles. 491 00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:12,420 And wow, kind of cool. 492 00:46:12,580 --> 00:46:17,280 [DAWN] Yeah, it really evolved from where I thought it was going to start. 493 00:46:17,310 --> 00:46:26,160 It actually was born from a State of Django panel on stage at one of the conferences. 494 00:46:26,460 --> 00:46:28,300 and someone said we should have a mentorship program. 495 00:46:28,570 --> 00:46:31,880 And then it just kind of blossomed from there. 496 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,480 And nobody really knew where it was coming from. 497 00:46:34,690 --> 00:46:41,900 But one of our fellows, so fellow is the term that we use for a full-time contributor to the 498 00:46:42,010 --> 00:46:43,580 language that is paid for by the foundation. 499 00:46:45,140 --> 00:46:46,240 Django gets two. 500 00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:52,140 And one of the fellows, before she was a fellow, actually just started participating in the 501 00:46:52,340 --> 00:46:52,500 mentorship. 502 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:57,920 She was an active contributor and then became a fellow, continues to help with the mentorship. 503 00:46:58,370 --> 00:47:04,620 And it really just has this cool effect of just bringing all of the energy together. 504 00:47:05,250 --> 00:47:07,560 And it was a lot more organized than I was expecting. 505 00:47:07,780 --> 00:47:13,960 I'm usually just like, let's set some time on the calendar and be a ragtag group of kids just hacking. 506 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,480 And I think this is just a different approach. 507 00:47:17,770 --> 00:47:21,120 I think it has its benefits and some drawbacks. 508 00:47:21,260 --> 00:47:28,660 But the group that comes through that do really benefit from it specifically say they like the structure. 509 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:38,560 And if they are looking for less structured ways of doing mentorship, then we'll create other more casual meetings as well. 510 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:43,740 [CLAIRE] You've said that you've had such great reviews, is any of that published? 511 00:47:43,580 --> 00:47:48,580 Is any of this process and the feedback, like, is there a blog post I can go read or that 512 00:47:48,580 --> 00:47:49,820 I can include the show notes? 513 00:47:50,280 --> 00:48:12,920 [DAWN] Yeah, totally. I think we even have a page where we say, so we have a media one. And then we also have like successes or something like that. I'll absolutely add them in the show notes. But if you're looking to just figure out all of all of that, it's Djangonaut, so djangonaut.space. So we use the space DNS for that. 514 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:22,020 [CLAIRE] This is just my own curiosity. I am super thrilled with everything that Robert Haas and 515 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:27,280 everyone involved in the new Postgres Mentorship Program has been doing, but I'm always curious 516 00:48:27,390 --> 00:48:32,600 as to, well, how have other how have other teams done it. So it's for my own my own learning here 517 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,720 that I'm asking but probably some listeners will be curious as well I'm probably not the only one. 518 00:48:40,420 --> 00:48:41,920 All right, so one other thing that I 519 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,240 was Googling you as I prepared 520 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,240 for this podcast, and you've been on a whole bunch 521 00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:46,880 of podcasts, 522 00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:50,180 and you've hosted one 523 00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:51,880 or two different ones right? 524 00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:57,140 [DAWN] Yeah, I am currently the co-host of the Sad Python Girls Club podcast with my co-host who is 525 00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:02,040 also a friend and colleague of yours, Luciana Abud, on the VS Code team. We keep it pretty 526 00:49:06,980 --> 00:49:07,700 loose on topics so we are all VS Code fans, but we absolutely talk about other editing 527 00:49:17,580 --> 00:49:27,680 environments. And then we had a really great guest from Ruby talk about language maintenance 528 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:35,860 and kind of the symbiotic relationship between companies that support that mission and will 529 00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:43,999 develop, will give full-time engineering hours, to supporting a language. And Microsoft does a 530 00:49:44,020 --> 00:49:49,500 little bit of that, but we also really do a lot of support for the Python coding environment 531 00:49:50,530 --> 00:49:57,840 in VS Code. And I think it's a really, really, a fun forum to chat. And then we always end with 532 00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:06,480 our favorite sad song and our favorite ice cream, because I like to associate ice cream with sad 533 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:06,840 feelings. 534 00:50:08,660 --> 00:50:15,420 [CLAIRE] Well, speaking of songs, I want to tell you that Aaron and I and another teammate, Isaac, 535 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:22,740 work together. And your episode, this episode 25 of Talking Postgres, is going to be the first 536 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:30,760 episode that has music. So I feel like we're finally going mainstream. Not a different song 537 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,940 every time like what you're describing, but we will have music that plays in the beginning and 538 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:36,920 at the end of each podcast episode moving forward. 539 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,280 [DAWN] I love that. Awesome. And this is for people who are listening or in the channel. This is such a well run organization. It was every step of the way you are class acts and I really appreciate actually I'm learning a lot about how to run a very well run podcast from being here. 540 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,480 So I'm appreciative of being invited. 541 00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:08,800 [CLAIRE] Oh, well, we're thrilled to have you. 542 00:51:10,100 --> 00:51:22,500 Is there anything that you particularly love about working in the Python developer community or the Django space that you wish other open source and developer projects also did? 543 00:51:23,420 --> 00:51:25,120 I'm just looking to learn from you. 544 00:51:24,579 --> 00:51:27,360 [DAWN] Oh, yeah, this is a really good one. 545 00:51:27,460 --> 00:51:39,840 I think that the, so I started in the Django sphere, Django area, and then I moved 546 00:51:41,460 --> 00:51:48,980 into Python and the audience is much larger, and much scarier, but I do think that we have, 547 00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:57,420 some of us have, when what when it goes well, a humility to look to other communities to learn things. 548 00:51:58,380 --> 00:52:05,740 I've seen that in abundance. Just even in this hour-long conversation, we've really talked about 549 00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:13,180 sharing tips and tricks and learning from each other in open source. But like a lot of our 550 00:52:14,060 --> 00:52:22,599 code of conduct conversations or ideas on mentorship or inclusivity have come from 551 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:29,820 the really cool, and even of having full-time fellows working on the language, they're called, 552 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:40,260 what is it, they go under a different name in Python, we got that from 553 00:52:40,780 --> 00:52:46,880 another subgroup of the community and borrowed from other communities so I think 554 00:52:48,299 --> 00:53:00,500 having that openness to chat and kind of lower the silos in some of these programming communities, 555 00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:06,520 even when the technologies are disparate and the solutions we're solving for are, 556 00:53:07,220 --> 00:53:11,140 or the problems we're solving for, are very different. I think we can learn a lot. And I 557 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,600 like that about Django and Python. 558 00:53:18,140 --> 00:53:22,760 [CLAIRE] Well, I've definitely, I'm going to follow up on a bunch of the leads and tips and links 559 00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:27,660 and things I'm going to get from you here, because I do think there are, even when we 560 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,380 work in different technology, parts of the technology stack, we're still people trying 561 00:53:32,380 --> 00:53:33,940 to figure out how to make things happen together. 562 00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:35,440 We still need processes. 563 00:53:35,730 --> 00:53:36,840 We still need to help each other. 564 00:53:36,930 --> 00:53:41,020 And there's a lot we can learn from each other, which I think is pretty awesome. 565 00:53:42,220 --> 00:53:47,340 Okay, so is there anything else that you want Postgres people, 566 00:53:48,010 --> 00:53:51,300 whether they are users or developers and contributors and committers, 567 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:58,980 to keep in mind or to know wearing your Django hat and your Python hat? 568 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,180 Okay, besides that they should all listen to the Talking Postgres podcast. 569 00:54:04,430 --> 00:54:06,220 Okay, because that kind of goes without saying, right? 570 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:08,280 [DAWN] That's number one! 571 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:19,560 I think we are in, so this has nothing to do with languages or technology, and I love that this is a human approach. 572 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:29,420 I think we're in a really interesting time in tech where open source kind of won. 573 00:54:30,220 --> 00:54:35,920 There was a while, and we've kind of won for the last maybe decade or so, I think. 574 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:37,820 So we can gloat a little bit. 575 00:54:39,380 --> 00:54:49,120 And there is ways that people are able to sustain themselves, have families and have fruitful lives and contribute or focus their careers around open source. 576 00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:58,800 And it's because there is this there's path to symbiotic relationships between the open source tools that you're building and the people who benefit from using it. 577 00:54:59,090 --> 00:55:11,440 And then, you know, funneling funds from one place to another that sustains lives and treats people like humans first. 578 00:55:12,620 --> 00:55:13,200 It's not easy. 579 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:19,420 I think there's many podcasts now that have popped up talking about how do we fund and 580 00:55:19,650 --> 00:55:23,000 maintain open source and sustain open source. 581 00:55:24,010 --> 00:55:31,520 But if I could like charge with everyone here about looking to different communities, I'm 582 00:55:32,060 --> 00:55:35,700 organizing a conference in Tanzania for the second time. 583 00:55:36,540 --> 00:55:37,700 It's called DjangoCon Africa. 584 00:55:37,870 --> 00:55:41,660 If you're interested in participating, you are more than welcome to join. 585 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:47,220 I think we're going to have some friends and partnerships with Canonical as well, and Ubuntu. 586 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,820 So if those sound really interesting, join and have fun with us. 587 00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:59,020 But really think about like, think globally and act locally is, yeah, that's what it's boiling down to. 588 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:06,520 Think globally and act locally on your open source experience, on treating people as humans first, 589 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:18,920 And lending your knowledge and your skills and your resources to this new era of open source and technology. 590 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,920 [CLAIRE] Well, the good news is, and of course I'm biased, I think the Postgres open source project 591 00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:27,400 is very global. 592 00:56:27,940 --> 00:56:28,400 [DAWN] Yes. 593 00:56:28,510 --> 00:56:38,280 [CLAIRE] I did a talk last fall about as many contributions as I could gather to Postgres version 17, which 594 00:56:38,300 --> 00:56:41,620 was developed over a 16 month-ish long period. 595 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,100 So I looked not just at the code contributions, 596 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,440 although that was actually an important thing to pull, 597 00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,600 but also looked at conferences and who gave talks 598 00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:56,380 and who shared their expertise, who published podcasts, 599 00:56:57,759 --> 00:56:59,860 who organized conferences, right? 600 00:56:59,860 --> 00:57:00,940 It's not just about the speakers, 601 00:57:01,340 --> 00:57:03,980 but also about the people who do all that blood, sweat, 602 00:57:04,010 --> 00:57:06,060 and tears behind the scenes to make it happen. 603 00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:12,540 And anyway, I put together a map at one point where we looked at all the speakers and all 604 00:57:12,540 --> 00:57:14,480 the code contributors, and it is global. 605 00:57:15,540 --> 00:57:20,520 So we have people from all over the place, and some of whom are self-employed or work 606 00:57:20,530 --> 00:57:26,760 for teeny tiny companies, and other ones who might get paid by a larger company to work 607 00:57:26,980 --> 00:57:32,580 on Postgres full-time, which is pretty awesome to get paid for doing this type of work. 608 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:30,320 [DAWN] Oh, cool. 609 00:57:33,780 --> 00:57:34,960 Where did you give that talk again? 610 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:36,180 I need to go watch that. 611 00:57:36,380 --> 00:57:36,680 That sounds very, very cool. 612 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,160 [CLAIRE] Oh, I'll drop the link in the show notes at PGConf.EU, which takes place in a different European city. 613 00:57:44,820 --> 00:57:49,160 Usually it's in October, and last year it was in Athens, Greece, which is super cool for me because I'm half Greek and I got to talk like a five-year-old, which is about the level of my language skills. 614 00:57:56,260 --> 00:58:01,960 But it was really an amazing event, and shout out to the people who organized it because we all had so much fun. 615 00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:03,580 [DAWN] That sounds fantastic. 616 00:58:03,620 --> 00:58:05,440 [CLAIRE] Okay, Dawn, I know you need to go. 617 00:58:06,660 --> 00:58:12,140 Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing some of your perspective on Postgres. 618 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:13,400 Good luck writing the book. 619 00:58:14,780 --> 00:58:18,040 I look forward to buying a copy as soon as it gets published. 620 00:58:19,100 --> 00:58:27,060 [DAWN] You don't have to buy one. I'll send you one. You're fantastic. You're in the awesome friends category. So I appreciate it. 621 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,100 [CLAIRE] Well, then they need a signature on it, right? 622 00:58:28,140 --> 00:58:28,720 [DAWN] Oh, I got you. 623 00:58:29,690 --> 00:58:29,800 [CLAIRE] Okay. 624 00:58:30,140 --> 00:58:30,380 All right. 625 00:58:30,620 --> 00:58:30,680 Cool. 626 00:58:31,220 --> 00:58:31,420 All right. 627 00:58:31,420 --> 00:58:33,000 And best of luck with Anaconda, too. 628 00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:34,800 I'm sure you're going to enjoy it. 629 00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,320 [DAWN] Thank you so much. I miss you all a bunch. 630 00:58:37,660 --> 00:58:42,780 But I'm having fun with these new challenges. But we'll stay connected. 631 00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:45,260 [CLAIRE] All right, thank you and 632 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,120 if you like today's episode, those of you who are listening, and you want to hear more of these 633 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:59,220 Talking Postgres episodes you can subscribe on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your 634 00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:05,020 podcasts. Please tell your friends too. And if you leave a review that helps even more people discover 635 00:59:05,030 --> 00:59:09,660 the pod. You can get to past episodes and get links to subscribe on the different platforms 636 00:59:10,060 --> 00:59:15,420 at TalkingPostgres.com. And transcripts are included on those episode pages as well. 637 00:59:15,870 --> 00:59:18,640 A big thank you to everybody who joined the live recording 638 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,200 and participated in the text chat. Thank you again, Dawn Wages. 639 00:59:24,140 --> 01:01:11,760 [DAWN] Thanks so much.