WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:24.890 --> 00:00:27.170 Anke: Hello and welcome Lisa and Dale. 00:00:27.230 --> 00:00:28.790 I'm very excited to have you here. 00:00:28.790 --> 00:00:29.090 Hi. 00:00:30.710 --> 00:00:32.000 Dale: We're delighted to be here. 00:00:32.090 --> 00:00:32.900 Yeah, yeah. 00:00:32.990 --> 00:00:33.260 Thank 00:00:33.260 --> 00:00:34.460 Lisa: you for inviting us. 00:00:35.300 --> 00:00:36.080 Anke: My pleasure. 00:00:36.230 --> 00:00:38.360 So let's just, let's just start. 00:00:38.570 --> 00:00:41.960 We're letting people know where in this lovely world you are and you 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:43.640 know, what's your business with dogs? 00:00:44.420 --> 00:00:44.690 Dale: Yeah. 00:00:45.585 --> 00:00:45.875 Okay. 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:47.360 Okay, Lisa, you can go first. 00:00:47.540 --> 00:00:47.720 Thank you 00:00:50.335 --> 00:00:50.555 Lisa: so. 00:00:52.805 --> 00:00:58.145 So well, I, I'm Lisa Hurd and I, I've been running, um, dog behavior 00:00:58.145 --> 00:01:03.185 clinic as my business is called, um, in Lincolnshire in England. 00:01:03.515 --> 00:01:05.015 You'll find out where day is. 00:01:05.075 --> 00:01:06.665 She's quite a distance from me. 00:01:07.895 --> 00:01:12.095 Um, so I, most of my clients come from vet referrals. 00:01:12.185 --> 00:01:12.815 Um. 00:01:13.815 --> 00:01:15.420 I, I take others as well. 00:01:15.630 --> 00:01:18.810 Um, and from rescue centers, I think one of my passions is, is 00:01:18.810 --> 00:01:23.250 rescue dogs and trying to help them, you know, find their new homes. 00:01:23.250 --> 00:01:26.760 So that's kind of my background is, is rescue. 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:32.010 Um, I've been involved in canine education for many years with several different. 00:01:32.435 --> 00:01:38.465 Course providers, um, and I from Dog Behavior Clinic, I provide 00:01:38.465 --> 00:01:42.185 sort of CPD training for vet clinics and other professionals. 00:01:43.385 --> 00:01:47.285 And Dale and I have known each other a number of years, shall we say. 00:01:47.345 --> 00:01:48.455 It's quite a long time. 00:01:48.455 --> 00:01:49.595 I'm not even gonna count. 00:01:50.045 --> 00:01:50.735 Um. 00:01:51.025 --> 00:01:55.075 And we've both got extensive experience in the canine behavior industry. 00:01:55.075 --> 00:01:59.395 Obviously Dale are running hers, which she'll tell you about, um, operating 00:01:59.395 --> 00:02:03.475 our own businesses, but we've also worked together with, in a canine 00:02:03.475 --> 00:02:09.685 education company, and I think for us, we, we realize that and, and sort 00:02:09.685 --> 00:02:11.725 of recognize there are gaps in, in. 00:02:12.530 --> 00:02:18.350 Existing education and we really wanted to offer something inno innovative and have 00:02:18.350 --> 00:02:21.470 some practical elements to that training. 00:02:21.830 --> 00:02:27.140 Um, not just for students, but also for dog owners and dog guardians as well. 00:02:27.140 --> 00:02:30.920 So we've kind of got two strands to our, our education. 00:02:32.030 --> 00:02:38.990 We very much believe that sort of hands-on in-person sessions are essential, um, 00:02:38.990 --> 00:02:40.910 for anyone seeking to work with dogs. 00:02:41.420 --> 00:02:44.870 And practical experience allows for a much better understanding 00:02:45.200 --> 00:02:46.700 and sort of skill development. 00:02:47.090 --> 00:02:49.670 And let's be honest, there's always something new to learn. 00:02:50.210 --> 00:02:53.510 Um, just because we've been doing things for a number of years 00:02:53.510 --> 00:02:55.010 doesn't mean that we're experts. 00:02:55.040 --> 00:02:57.470 You know, I think we need to recognize this. 00:02:58.100 --> 00:02:58.820 Um. 00:02:59.600 --> 00:03:03.890 And obviously practical sessions really help build up those observation 00:03:03.890 --> 00:03:08.570 skills because yeah, we could, we could talk for hours about observation 00:03:08.570 --> 00:03:10.250 skills, so I won't bore you with that. 00:03:10.490 --> 00:03:15.350 But, you know, we, we believe in focusing and, and trying to foster 00:03:15.350 --> 00:03:19.550 a strong relationship between the human and their canines and, and 00:03:19.550 --> 00:03:23.120 helping them have a really harmonious and fulfilling relationship. 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:24.770 I guess that's our, our goal. 00:03:25.430 --> 00:03:31.730 Um, probably in our own practice and, and working as without worry. 00:03:31.730 --> 00:03:34.730 So without worry, canine education was born. 00:03:35.630 --> 00:03:37.370 It's our brainchild, isn't it, Dale? 00:03:37.550 --> 00:03:39.200 Yes, they baby. 00:03:39.770 --> 00:03:40.760 Absolutely. 00:03:40.880 --> 00:03:45.200 And it's de dedicated to promoting positive interactions with dogs 00:03:45.200 --> 00:03:50.420 through compassion, uh, respect, uh, reward-based training, of course. 00:03:51.200 --> 00:03:51.980 Um. 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:56.180 And we, we've had some fantastic feedback from, you know, from our 00:03:56.180 --> 00:04:01.130 students, from dog owners talking about, um, our material is, you know, 00:04:01.220 --> 00:04:04.310 really, really easy to understand. 00:04:04.790 --> 00:04:08.420 And it, what they like about it is that it's sort of real world. 00:04:09.050 --> 00:04:10.610 It's not this sort of fluffy thing. 00:04:10.610 --> 00:04:12.410 Yes, we need to do theory. 00:04:12.470 --> 00:04:16.310 Of course we need to know, you know, some of the theory behind dog behavior. 00:04:16.640 --> 00:04:17.870 But for a dog owner, they're. 00:04:18.695 --> 00:04:20.225 They wanna know, well, how do I do it? 00:04:20.285 --> 00:04:21.935 How does this apply to me? 00:04:22.535 --> 00:04:26.555 And it's not some sort of airy fairy thing, oh, well, we'll do this. 00:04:26.555 --> 00:04:30.365 You know, we, we give practical help, um, you know, for 00:04:30.365 --> 00:04:32.105 solving some of those problems. 00:04:32.585 --> 00:04:37.265 Um, and I think a lot of our feedback's been around the, the 00:04:37.265 --> 00:04:40.295 quality of the material, um, but also. 00:04:40.940 --> 00:04:43.160 Getting them to think outside the box. 00:04:43.430 --> 00:04:45.860 You know, it is not just this little bit of theory. 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:47.870 Um, I'm making hand signs. 00:04:47.870 --> 00:04:49.340 That's a bit rubbish, isn't it? 00:04:51.230 --> 00:04:53.030 Anke: People can watch on YouTube, they can see it. 00:04:53.330 --> 00:04:55.400 I love that because I think that's really. 00:04:56.315 --> 00:05:00.095 You know, you say always like, as the more you know about the subject, the more 00:05:00.095 --> 00:05:02.165 you realize how little you actually know. 00:05:02.165 --> 00:05:03.905 It's almost almost like the personal things. 00:05:03.905 --> 00:05:04.685 They know everything. 00:05:04.955 --> 00:05:06.365 They're kind of giving away. 00:05:06.365 --> 00:05:10.025 They haven't got a clue, and I'm gonna come back to that gap you 00:05:10.025 --> 00:05:11.885 mentioned like the gaps in the exam. 00:05:11.885 --> 00:05:12.215 I'm gonna. 00:05:12.580 --> 00:05:13.360 Wanna dig? 00:05:14.770 --> 00:05:15.460 We go there. 00:05:15.640 --> 00:05:16.060 You can 00:05:16.060 --> 00:05:17.590 Lisa: dig into Dale's brain. 00:05:17.590 --> 00:05:18.610 She's always good for a good, 00:05:22.090 --> 00:05:27.070 Anke: so Dale, we've kind of teased people in enough, like people I know well. 00:05:28.285 --> 00:05:32.695 Dale: It's not going to be a surprise, is it with a name like mine and 00:05:32.695 --> 00:05:36.985 an accent like mine to realize where in the world I might be? 00:05:37.255 --> 00:05:42.745 So I'm in the, I'm in Scotland, uh, the, the West of Scotland. 00:05:42.745 --> 00:05:42.805 Um. 00:05:43.880 --> 00:05:49.130 Which we were just talking about is the, probably the highest rainfall 00:05:49.130 --> 00:05:50.810 in the whole of, uh, the uk. 00:05:50.810 --> 00:05:56.360 But you know, we are hard day in Scotland, so we don't let any of that bother us. 00:05:56.960 --> 00:06:02.270 Um, but yeah, I've run my own business, uh, is called being canine and I've 00:06:02.270 --> 00:06:04.220 run that for quite a number of years. 00:06:04.310 --> 00:06:04.790 Um. 00:06:05.470 --> 00:06:11.620 And the thing for, for me was that I felt uncomfortable saying 00:06:11.620 --> 00:06:14.620 some things to my clients. 00:06:14.650 --> 00:06:19.150 So most of my referrals are either through the vet or they 00:06:19.150 --> 00:06:20.770 are just people self refer. 00:06:20.890 --> 00:06:26.170 Uh, I used to do classes as well, but I don't do so many classes nowadays. 00:06:27.250 --> 00:06:30.490 But I used to feel quite uncomfortable saying certain things. 00:06:30.490 --> 00:06:34.120 And one of the things that stuck with me was. 00:06:35.105 --> 00:06:38.225 Every interaction is a training opportunity. 00:06:38.525 --> 00:06:42.185 And I would say that because that's what I'd heard, you know, and I'm 00:06:42.185 --> 00:06:46.295 talking about quite a few years ago that this was something that I would've 00:06:46.295 --> 00:06:52.955 repeated and then a question myself, and I thought, right, should it be, 00:06:53.195 --> 00:07:00.035 I mean, we're saying that, and we're saying reward the good, ignore the bad. 00:07:00.935 --> 00:07:05.975 But what I might think is good behavior or might, I might want someone else, 00:07:05.975 --> 00:07:11.255 would think was bad and didn't wanna, and then I thought, well, wait a minute. 00:07:11.510 --> 00:07:18.215 I, I am now questioning some of these standard sayings. 00:07:19.175 --> 00:07:25.115 And one of the things that I felt really uncomfortable with was, um, you know, 00:07:25.115 --> 00:07:29.315 that idea that just because you can, doesn't mean to say that you should. 00:07:30.440 --> 00:07:33.770 And I, I realized that yeah, we can get dogs to do a 00:07:33.770 --> 00:07:35.420 multitude of things, can't we? 00:07:35.450 --> 00:07:37.550 You know, get your reward right? 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:40.340 Have a high enough value reward. 00:07:40.730 --> 00:07:45.590 If your timing's really, really good, you can get your dog to do 00:07:45.590 --> 00:07:49.970 X, Y, and Z as though that was what we should be aiming for. 00:07:50.420 --> 00:07:53.990 And the more I thought about that, I thought actually I'm seeing 00:07:53.990 --> 00:07:55.730 things and I'm not living it. 00:07:56.465 --> 00:08:02.495 What I would do wasn't actually tying in with what people were saying. 00:08:02.495 --> 00:08:04.985 That's what you should see when you're a, a dog trainer 00:08:05.225 --> 00:08:06.425 or a behaviorist or whatever. 00:08:06.995 --> 00:08:11.315 So I just found it really interesting that actually what is being promoted, um, 00:08:12.155 --> 00:08:16.020 was a transactional relationship, not. 00:08:16.985 --> 00:08:22.055 Uh, a real relationship that's two-way and built on trust and 00:08:22.055 --> 00:08:27.005 two-way communication, and it seemed to be all very person centric. 00:08:27.365 --> 00:08:33.395 It was very much what I want my dog to do, how I want my dog to respond, 00:08:34.055 --> 00:08:36.600 and I thought it doesn't feel right. 00:08:37.595 --> 00:08:42.305 And then when there were gaps, so let's be honest, a dog that chooses 00:08:42.305 --> 00:08:47.825 not to engage a dog that disengages or a dog that has a gap and isn't doing 00:08:47.825 --> 00:08:53.375 anything that's still communication, but actually the old fashioned 00:08:53.375 --> 00:08:56.255 view was or will get higher value. 00:08:56.255 --> 00:08:56.465 Rewards. 00:08:58.010 --> 00:08:59.975 Get your timing to be better. 00:09:00.515 --> 00:09:03.065 You need to get the behavior. 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:10.490 And I thought, Hmm, not actually too sure why any of this is of value 00:09:10.490 --> 00:09:13.940 and what value is it to our dogs? 00:09:14.540 --> 00:09:19.280 They might do it and they might enjoy the reward and they might be quite 00:09:19.280 --> 00:09:23.540 greedy dogs and would do anything, you know, for, for a tiny piece of chicken. 00:09:24.590 --> 00:09:29.180 But is that really building a good relationship with our dogs? 00:09:29.450 --> 00:09:30.140 And so. 00:09:31.040 --> 00:09:37.400 When Lisa and I were involved in other education providers, um, we would talk 00:09:37.400 --> 00:09:42.380 about this and we would, we would question some of the things that, you know, were 00:09:42.380 --> 00:09:44.780 being said over and over and over again. 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:49.550 And then we started to sort of say, but you know, if I'm honest, I 00:09:49.550 --> 00:09:51.560 don't really work that way myself. 00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:54.290 You know, I work slightly differently. 00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:59.840 And then we realized, actually, when you simplify it. 00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:07.340 So if you have a simpler attitude to living with dogs, it means that actually 00:10:07.340 --> 00:10:09.860 things come together much more easily. 00:10:09.860 --> 00:10:15.530 So if a dog really truly believes that you've, they're seen, they've been 00:10:15.530 --> 00:10:22.190 heard, you have noticed, you know, any kinda communication, but also that you 00:10:22.190 --> 00:10:26.780 know how to respond appropriately, that. 00:10:27.515 --> 00:10:34.565 Things don't rely on dogs, don't rely on being paid to do stuff for you. 00:10:36.215 --> 00:10:43.775 And that is a, that is a, when dogs feel seen and heard and understood, very 00:10:43.775 --> 00:10:46.805 simply it becomes a better relationship. 00:10:46.805 --> 00:10:50.495 But it's actually a bit of a revelation to a lot of people 00:10:50.795 --> 00:10:53.945 that if you don't coerce them. 00:10:54.800 --> 00:11:01.010 Pay them using food or access to other rewards, not just food, but other rewards 00:11:01.430 --> 00:11:03.170 that your dog won't do it for you. 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:08.120 And we talked about this often and said, well, supposing we're asking 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:10.700 our dogs to do reasonable things. 00:11:10.700 --> 00:11:12.320 We're not asking them to do anything. 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:14.420 You know, that's not a natural thing. 00:11:14.810 --> 00:11:16.130 Why wouldn't they do it? 00:11:17.705 --> 00:11:21.065 And of course when you think about why they wouldn't do it, there's 00:11:21.065 --> 00:11:25.385 may be a very, very good reason in the dog's head for why they 00:11:25.385 --> 00:11:28.385 don't want to respond in that way. 00:11:28.445 --> 00:11:32.555 When we ask, and once you start thinking like that, you see the 00:11:32.555 --> 00:11:35.585 whole relationship very differently. 00:11:35.585 --> 00:11:36.395 Mm-hmm. 00:11:36.605 --> 00:11:37.535 Anke: I love, I love that. 00:11:37.955 --> 00:11:38.735 And I think. 00:11:39.935 --> 00:11:44.885 I'm just sort of in my mind, I have, I have a document in my mind when I host, 00:11:44.975 --> 00:11:51.455 um, a cla when I invite somebody to host a class on the actual registration form, 00:11:51.455 --> 00:11:55.385 I always ask one question, like, what are you curious to learn more about? 00:11:55.775 --> 00:11:56.165 Right? 00:11:56.345 --> 00:11:59.315 So I, and I then collect these answers in the document. 00:11:59.525 --> 00:12:04.625 So I have this long, long, like, you know, and it's interesting how people phrase it. 00:12:05.495 --> 00:12:05.975 Right. 00:12:06.515 --> 00:12:10.895 And so currently there's one coming up that's about, um, you know, 00:12:10.895 --> 00:12:12.965 from barking mad to calm and quiet. 00:12:12.965 --> 00:12:16.565 So it's all about barking and every single person is like, how 00:12:16.565 --> 00:12:20.045 can I get my dog to stop barking? 00:12:20.315 --> 00:12:21.395 Whatever the thing is. 00:12:21.455 --> 00:12:21.665 Right. 00:12:21.665 --> 00:12:23.615 That really speaks to what you were saying. 00:12:23.615 --> 00:12:23.705 Yes. 00:12:23.795 --> 00:12:30.065 It's people, there's this like, how can I make my dog do or stop doing something? 00:12:30.395 --> 00:12:34.775 And I think these being seen and heard, I think a lot of people probably. 00:12:35.465 --> 00:12:39.905 Understand that intellectually they kinda hear that and go, yeah, that makes sense. 00:12:39.905 --> 00:12:45.335 And the question is, what do people get wrong when they, because I would imagine 00:12:45.335 --> 00:12:51.185 most people think they, they do what it takes to understand, to, to make their dog 00:12:51.185 --> 00:12:53.915 feel seen and heard and probably don't. 00:12:53.915 --> 00:12:55.660 So what's your experience there? 00:12:55.720 --> 00:13:00.515 Are there gaps in what pe between, between what people think they do and what they 00:13:00.515 --> 00:13:02.255 act, what the dog probably would think? 00:13:02.795 --> 00:13:06.515 Dale: I think, I mean I know Elise will chip in with this as well, but, uh, 00:13:06.545 --> 00:13:08.615 I think people are very inconsistent. 00:13:09.185 --> 00:13:14.735 So I think they notice when they do things that work well or that they 00:13:14.735 --> 00:13:16.835 think is the right, um, approach. 00:13:17.345 --> 00:13:24.155 But the problem for dogs is that we change people, you know, change their 00:13:24.215 --> 00:13:29.165 response so many times that the, that, that causes stress to lots of dogs. 00:13:29.525 --> 00:13:31.120 They don't know which way we're going to be. 00:13:31.730 --> 00:13:36.560 You know, today, and I don't mean about punishment or not 00:13:36.560 --> 00:13:40.940 punishment, I mean, obviously we advocate, no punishment whatsoever. 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.430 Goes, should go without saying, shouldn't it? 00:13:43.460 --> 00:13:50.510 But if you, if a dog shows hesitance something and 00:13:51.260 --> 00:13:52.700 doesn't want to do something. 00:13:53.510 --> 00:13:56.870 What people generally do is they up the, the ante. 00:13:56.870 --> 00:13:58.760 They start encouraging the dog. 00:13:58.760 --> 00:14:00.290 They try and lure the dog. 00:14:00.290 --> 00:14:01.670 They try and coax the dog. 00:14:01.670 --> 00:14:02.960 They try and coerce the dog. 00:14:03.290 --> 00:14:06.710 Now, one of the things there is that the dog very quickly learns. 00:14:06.800 --> 00:14:11.360 I am sure I'm not inside a dog's head, but I am sure that they learn 00:14:11.390 --> 00:14:17.300 that they have no say in making a decision about what they either 00:14:17.300 --> 00:14:18.650 want to do or don't want to do. 00:14:18.800 --> 00:14:21.290 And for some dogs as well, they need. 00:14:22.025 --> 00:14:27.185 There's a pause because they need a moment or two to consider it, process 00:14:27.185 --> 00:14:30.035 it, but they're not given that time. 00:14:30.095 --> 00:14:30.995 They're rushed. 00:14:31.385 --> 00:14:34.535 Because the person has asked for them to do something and you have to 00:14:34.535 --> 00:14:36.425 respond immediately if you're a dog. 00:14:36.425 --> 00:14:40.895 I mean, I don't know if you know, if dogs know that, but that appears to be, 00:14:41.945 --> 00:14:47.405 I know, but that appears to be the thing that when you say jump, your dog should 00:14:47.405 --> 00:14:50.465 say how high and do it immediately. 00:14:50.465 --> 00:14:55.775 Otherwise, they've not learned and they're not, you know, obedient. 00:14:55.865 --> 00:14:59.795 We hate that, but I think the inconsistency. 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:06.260 Just proves that people do not really a lot of the time notice 00:15:07.040 --> 00:15:13.190 until the dog is refused to do something or they are not getting 00:15:13.190 --> 00:15:16.070 the response that they, uh, expect. 00:15:16.070 --> 00:15:18.620 And that's when they start using words like stubborn 00:15:18.890 --> 00:15:22.460 obstinate, difficult untrainable. 00:15:23.180 --> 00:15:26.540 So they use all these words because that. 00:15:27.425 --> 00:15:30.695 Describes the fact that the dog didn't comply immediately. 00:15:31.595 --> 00:15:34.475 Um, Lisa, have you got a example? 00:15:34.475 --> 00:15:35.285 You wanna, I think a lot of it 00:15:35.735 --> 00:15:39.845 Lisa: kind of comes down to the old fashioned, traditional obedience. 00:15:39.845 --> 00:15:44.045 There was this expectation that, well, I think there's an expectation from 00:15:44.045 --> 00:15:45.575 the wider public sometimes as well. 00:15:45.575 --> 00:15:49.685 Your dog should be trained, you should be able to get your dog to do X, Y, Z. 00:15:49.865 --> 00:15:53.285 So that kind of fills people's heads. 00:15:53.495 --> 00:15:53.855 Oh. 00:15:54.395 --> 00:15:58.685 You know, they get embarrassed when they're out in public and so on, but there 00:15:58.685 --> 00:16:03.785 is this expectation that I've asked my dog to do it, so they should be doing it. 00:16:03.815 --> 00:16:08.315 And if they're not doing it, the focus isn't on, well, why 00:16:08.315 --> 00:16:09.815 might they not want to do it? 00:16:09.815 --> 00:16:12.515 The focus then becomes on, well, they're disobedient, they're they're 00:16:12.515 --> 00:16:14.255 stubborn, and all the rest of it, and. 00:16:15.680 --> 00:16:19.880 You kind of go, they go down this rabbit hole of, well, you know, as, as Dale said, 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:26.270 I need to find a higher motivating or higher reinforcing treat, or it must be, 00:16:26.630 --> 00:16:32.210 um, the environment and, and, and they go through all of this and completely miss. 00:16:33.185 --> 00:16:35.045 What the dog is trying to say to them. 00:16:35.045 --> 00:16:36.245 And it Yeah, 00:16:36.545 --> 00:16:39.875 Anke: that's, that's funny actually, because I've got like two of them, 00:16:39.875 --> 00:16:42.155 the, the brown one there and, and Mrs. 00:16:42.155 --> 00:16:43.235 Spanish massive. 00:16:43.535 --> 00:16:47.705 And you can tell that those breeds who, I mean, the massive, like, well they're 00:16:47.705 --> 00:16:50.345 normally, she's like the sofa tiger. 00:16:50.345 --> 00:16:51.785 Probably the only one in Spain. 00:16:51.785 --> 00:16:54.665 Like most of the time they live with the shape out in the country. 00:16:54.665 --> 00:16:57.575 So they're not, they're, they have to be independent thinkers. 00:16:58.490 --> 00:17:00.800 Right, and you can tell with her it's hilarious. 00:17:00.800 --> 00:17:05.210 You say something and she'll go, Hmm, let me think about that. 00:17:05.600 --> 00:17:06.320 That makes sense. 00:17:08.225 --> 00:17:08.675 Yeah. 00:17:09.275 --> 00:17:09.785 Alright. 00:17:10.025 --> 00:17:13.385 You know, and then she'll come around and you know, or she goes, 00:17:13.385 --> 00:17:16.385 well no, this makes no sense at all so you can go do it yourself. 00:17:16.385 --> 00:17:16.655 Right. 00:17:16.865 --> 00:17:21.755 So she's definitely not an obedient, I mean, you know, like, not in 00:17:21.755 --> 00:17:25.565 the sense of I give a command and she'll also, the thing is I've 00:17:25.565 --> 00:17:28.295 never tried, like, I've never like. 00:17:30.155 --> 00:17:33.830 So my partner will probably kill me if you heard this episode, but he won't. 00:17:34.070 --> 00:17:39.110 So he's, he will quite, you know, sometimes he has this thing, oh, 00:17:39.290 --> 00:17:43.190 you know, and all of a sudden expect something from her. 00:17:44.270 --> 00:17:48.500 But I'm like, you've never spent a minute to actually teach her that. 00:17:48.710 --> 00:17:49.130 Dale: Yeah. 00:17:49.985 --> 00:17:52.685 Anke: Because then he'll go all of a sudden like, come here, 00:17:52.685 --> 00:17:54.035 like I told you to come here. 00:17:54.035 --> 00:17:55.925 Like, have you ever considered that? 00:17:55.925 --> 00:17:58.055 She might not have a clue what you want from her. 00:17:58.445 --> 00:18:02.495 You know, so there's this expectation that they could just sort of magically 00:18:02.495 --> 00:18:05.615 know, because quite often they do seem to be able to read our minds. 00:18:05.675 --> 00:18:05.765 Mm-hmm. 00:18:06.005 --> 00:18:08.135 You know, and I think there is that constant sort of. 00:18:09.500 --> 00:18:13.820 Misunderstanding or, or you know, where the expectations don't quite 00:18:13.820 --> 00:18:17.090 meet because everybody watches, you know, on television, like, 00:18:17.090 --> 00:18:18.440 oh my God, those police docs. 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:18.770 Right. 00:18:19.010 --> 00:18:20.510 It's like Uhhuh, you know? 00:18:20.510 --> 00:18:25.250 And people will say, oh, I want that level of response and immediate, but do you 00:18:25.250 --> 00:18:27.200 have any idea how much time they spend? 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:27.830 Yeah. 00:18:27.830 --> 00:18:28.010 You know? 00:18:28.010 --> 00:18:30.530 And it's probably also different for different breeds. 00:18:30.860 --> 00:18:31.310 Dale: Yeah. 00:18:31.310 --> 00:18:32.480 And some dogs. 00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:36.040 Won't make the grade when it comes to that type of work. 00:18:36.070 --> 00:18:41.260 And that's what people forget is that police dogs and some of these 00:18:41.260 --> 00:18:47.805 search and rescue dogs, not all of them, they cannot take any dog. 00:18:48.965 --> 00:18:52.595 Train the dog to that level of working. 00:18:53.255 --> 00:18:57.875 Uh, though the dogs that don't make the grade are weed out very early on. 00:18:58.235 --> 00:18:58.295 Yeah. 00:18:58.325 --> 00:19:02.585 So I think that people have this misconception as well about 00:19:02.945 --> 00:19:05.105 dog's motivation to do stuff. 00:19:05.465 --> 00:19:11.075 So we've either got the ones who the dog should do it because they love us. 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:16.430 The dog should do it because they respect us or they should do it because 00:19:16.430 --> 00:19:18.500 I'm the holder of all things good. 00:19:18.530 --> 00:19:18.980 You know? 00:19:18.980 --> 00:19:23.270 Um, and actually, you know, have we ever considered that 00:19:23.270 --> 00:19:25.035 the dog is quite often making. 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:32.060 The right decision for themselves by not complying with what we ask. 00:19:32.570 --> 00:19:37.190 So, I mean, I don't do everything that everybody asks of me. 00:19:37.190 --> 00:19:41.750 I mean, I'm allowed to say, well, I thank you very much, but I'm not doing that. 00:19:42.590 --> 00:19:44.750 Um, and that goes, doesn't it? 00:19:44.780 --> 00:19:49.280 That goes with having intelligence supposedly and being able to weigh up. 00:19:50.540 --> 00:19:55.880 So we value our dog's intelligence because they should be intelligent 00:19:55.880 --> 00:20:00.140 enough to be trained, but then we don't like their intelligence when 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:04.040 they weigh something up and say, well, I don't really want to do that. 00:20:04.040 --> 00:20:04.915 Thank you very much. 00:20:05.615 --> 00:20:08.990 You know, and I think then you have to start looking at. 00:20:09.590 --> 00:20:16.700 What your expectations are and why your expectations are of that type of response. 00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:20.090 And that's what I'm going back to, like, when I first started in dog behavior and 00:20:20.090 --> 00:20:26.510 dog training all those hundreds of years ago, uh, the, the expectation was this 00:20:26.510 --> 00:20:33.320 sort of almost like military type of, I ask for something, I must get it now. 00:20:33.620 --> 00:20:34.910 I never ever, you know. 00:20:35.675 --> 00:20:40.175 Subscribe to the idea of force or bullying dogs into doing anything. 00:20:42.005 --> 00:20:48.485 But I think we have this, um, still this expectation that a dog is 00:20:49.625 --> 00:20:52.890 valued and judged on their ability. 00:20:53.960 --> 00:21:01.130 To respond quickly to us and what we might want, plus maybe not give us any bother or 00:21:01.130 --> 00:21:03.440 annoy us when we don't want to be annoyed. 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:08.540 So these poor dogs have got step up to the mark when it's expected, 00:21:09.320 --> 00:21:14.000 go away and be quiet and not bother us when that's expected. 00:21:14.390 --> 00:21:19.520 But also on the other hand, be thinkers and clever, but don't think. 00:21:20.045 --> 00:21:22.325 If it means that you're not doing what I want you to do. 00:21:22.595 --> 00:21:28.445 So we have all of this expectation, and I just think these, we dogs in the 00:21:28.445 --> 00:21:31.805 middle must be going, what the heck? 00:21:32.945 --> 00:21:34.265 Make your mind up. 00:21:36.305 --> 00:21:37.355 Anke: That's so true. 00:21:37.595 --> 00:21:38.285 That's so true. 00:21:38.465 --> 00:21:44.195 So what was the, what was the um, thing that sparked you guys to go and 00:21:44.195 --> 00:21:46.415 say, well actually we should put this. 00:21:46.865 --> 00:21:49.715 Project on together because you both have your own business, so you 00:21:49.715 --> 00:21:54.665 could just, just kind of meet at conferences and, you know, but what 00:21:54.665 --> 00:21:58.205 made you say like, actually we wanna really create that platform together? 00:22:00.095 --> 00:22:01.055 Dale: Lisa, I'll let you go. 00:22:01.760 --> 00:22:05.585 Lisa: I, I think it is just the more we talk together, we, we do talk a lot. 00:22:05.585 --> 00:22:07.595 I mean, you know, we put our hands up to that. 00:22:07.595 --> 00:22:13.175 We do talk and, and I think just, just the more we talked and it, 00:22:13.475 --> 00:22:14.915 you realize it's not just a. 00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:19.850 A problem in, in our area, or it's not just a problem that we've experienced 00:22:19.850 --> 00:22:21.350 with our clients or whatever. 00:22:21.350 --> 00:22:25.850 You and, and students, you, we realized it's a much, much bigger problem. 00:22:25.850 --> 00:22:29.690 And there's, we just felt there was so much we could bring to the table, really. 00:22:30.050 --> 00:22:35.450 Um, and, and just try and offer some, I, I don't wanna say it 00:22:35.450 --> 00:22:37.940 sounds a bit of a cliche, you know, something, something new. 00:22:38.030 --> 00:22:40.580 You know, all, all these different methods and. 00:22:41.230 --> 00:22:45.280 And training ideas and all the rest, let's just concentrate on the dog. 00:22:45.790 --> 00:22:49.900 You know, it, it, people are looking for this, this new, the best method, 00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:52.150 the best way forward, how to train dog. 00:22:52.690 --> 00:22:53.950 And that's not what we are about. 00:22:53.950 --> 00:22:55.025 We're trying to get people to. 00:22:55.745 --> 00:23:00.245 To see the dog in front of them to understand there's much, much 00:23:00.245 --> 00:23:05.675 more to, to, to dogs than the, the little bit that they're focusing on. 00:23:05.765 --> 00:23:08.045 And, and we, we just kept talking and talking and we're like, 00:23:08.225 --> 00:23:09.395 right, well, let's do it then. 00:23:13.060 --> 00:23:13.150 Anke: Yes. 00:23:14.320 --> 00:23:18.190 So what, what is it that, that you are offering, like to get, I mean, obviously 00:23:18.190 --> 00:23:22.900 you're not in the same location, so it wouldn't be the Sunday afternoon 00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:24.670 get together in the local park. 00:23:24.700 --> 00:23:24.760 Yeah. 00:23:25.090 --> 00:23:28.660 So is it training programs or like what is it that you're offering? 00:23:28.780 --> 00:23:31.420 Lisa: Yeah, so we've kind of got, as I said, two strands. 00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:32.826 We, we've got sort of. 00:23:33.895 --> 00:23:38.275 The CPD courses for professionals, for people wanting to learn about 00:23:38.275 --> 00:23:41.365 dog behavior in a, in a more, you know, sort of structured way. 00:23:41.665 --> 00:23:46.165 And then we've got the, the kind of stream for dog owners and guardians, 00:23:46.225 --> 00:23:49.315 which of course we are really passionate about in, you know, in our own. 00:23:49.625 --> 00:23:53.855 Um, businesses as well, and we've got different courses, but particularly with 00:23:53.855 --> 00:23:58.805 the students, um, or anyone wanting to learn about sort of dog behavior, we offer 00:23:58.805 --> 00:24:04.265 an enhanced so you can do the theory, which again, we think is a bit out there. 00:24:04.565 --> 00:24:05.945 It's a bit different. 00:24:06.545 --> 00:24:07.865 Uh, well, I know it's different. 00:24:07.865 --> 00:24:11.975 We know it's different, but we also offer an enhanced version 00:24:11.975 --> 00:24:15.635 of that where they, depending where the people live, if they're. 00:24:16.445 --> 00:24:20.285 Up in Scotland, they can go to Dale, or if they're down in England, they 00:24:20.285 --> 00:24:21.725 can come to me in Lincolnshire. 00:24:22.205 --> 00:24:24.455 Um, and that's, that's kind of how we work it. 00:24:24.455 --> 00:24:29.855 So there are opportunities for in-person stuff 'cause it, it's invaluable. 00:24:30.605 --> 00:24:33.365 Uh, and we've, we've run some practical days. 00:24:34.655 --> 00:24:38.765 Different, you know, in each area ourselves about, um, just observation 00:24:38.765 --> 00:24:42.425 skills and body language just for anyone to come across along to not 00:24:42.425 --> 00:24:46.300 just, you know, dog professionals or somebody who wants to be a. 00:24:47.330 --> 00:24:48.350 A dog behaviorist. 00:24:48.350 --> 00:24:52.310 And I really do think the practical stuff makes such a difference. 00:24:53.090 --> 00:24:54.470 You can't get it anywhere. 00:24:54.530 --> 00:24:56.030 It's really difficult to, that's 00:24:56.030 --> 00:24:56.570 Anke: interesting. 00:24:56.570 --> 00:24:56.780 Yeah. 00:24:56.780 --> 00:24:59.570 Because everybody is down say, oh, we're gonna just train online, you 00:24:59.570 --> 00:25:03.920 know, and I think the, the, the body language, the observation piece, 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.770 it's like everybody says, well, you need to understand body language. 00:25:06.770 --> 00:25:07.070 Right? 00:25:07.310 --> 00:25:10.130 But like, yeah, but how, like what's piece? 00:25:10.280 --> 00:25:13.190 I'm always like, yeah, but what am I missing? 00:25:13.340 --> 00:25:13.790 You know? 00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:14.030 Yeah. 00:25:14.090 --> 00:25:15.200 Because if I. 00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:19.580 The, the standard stuff that, you know, we kind of know that the wagon tail 00:25:19.580 --> 00:25:21.380 doesn't necessarily uhhuh the dogs happy. 00:25:21.380 --> 00:25:21.740 Right. 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:23.995 So what else is there that Yeah. 00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:27.050 You know, people may understand one way when it's like a 00:25:27.050 --> 00:25:28.370 lot more nuanced than that. 00:25:28.370 --> 00:25:29.000 Exactly. 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.360 And I, and I don't really feel that there's a lot of, um. 00:25:33.020 --> 00:25:33.890 Information. 00:25:33.890 --> 00:25:37.160 It's the same old conflicting crap around, you know? 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:39.440 So where it's like, if I'm now there and say, I really wanna 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:42.830 understand body language of my dog, it's not that easy to find. 00:25:42.860 --> 00:25:43.100 No. 00:25:43.580 --> 00:25:46.010 On the other side of it is part of your offerings that 00:25:46.010 --> 00:25:47.960 is really, extremely valuable. 00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:48.020 Yeah. 00:25:48.020 --> 00:25:48.080 Yeah. 00:25:48.860 --> 00:25:52.400 Lisa: And that the important bit is, okay, you've recognized that. 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:53.690 What are you gonna do about it? 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:55.610 How are you going to respond to that? 00:25:55.670 --> 00:25:58.730 And that's the bit, oh yeah, my dog's licking his lips. 00:25:59.060 --> 00:26:00.080 Oh, he's stressed. 00:26:01.265 --> 00:26:01.805 Okay. 00:26:02.315 --> 00:26:03.875 We need to look much deeper than that. 00:26:03.875 --> 00:26:05.530 You know, a lip, lip here, so, yeah. 00:26:05.535 --> 00:26:06.965 Yeah, exactly. 00:26:06.965 --> 00:26:09.455 And that's, that's kind of what we try and hone in on. 00:26:09.905 --> 00:26:11.525 Um, yeah, and it's the 00:26:11.525 --> 00:26:12.425 Dale: groups as well. 00:26:12.425 --> 00:26:14.555 It's the group in the clusters of things. 00:26:15.170 --> 00:26:20.930 So I'm afraid to say that no, that, I mean, I run daycare as well, so I spend 00:26:21.230 --> 00:26:27.350 lots of hours every day just watching them and uh, and it's fascinating. 00:26:27.350 --> 00:26:33.530 But if you were to look for those individual lip licks or whatever, 00:26:33.590 --> 00:26:36.350 you know, whichever one of the things you wanted to look at, yeah, you'll 00:26:36.350 --> 00:26:38.060 see them, you'll always see them. 00:26:38.855 --> 00:26:46.025 But it's, it's when you, when you see them in clusters or in isolation, or 00:26:46.025 --> 00:26:51.605 followed by an action or before an action, they're the things that matter. 00:26:52.295 --> 00:26:56.705 It's a bit like if you buy a yellow car and you go out tomorrow and 00:26:56.705 --> 00:26:59.285 you will see umpteen yellow cars. 00:27:00.245 --> 00:27:05.165 So if you want to see lip licking, you will watch dogs, 00:27:05.165 --> 00:27:06.725 and that's all you will see. 00:27:07.355 --> 00:27:12.005 But the problem with that is that you're not then seeing what surrounds that 00:27:12.725 --> 00:27:19.175 and it, it's fluid and it's sometimes fleeting and it's very easily missed. 00:27:19.715 --> 00:27:25.355 And I think that when people should be observing and simply observing, 00:27:25.355 --> 00:27:29.705 they're very quickly interpreting and jumping to conclusions. 00:27:30.335 --> 00:27:35.975 And then, so really what we should be doing is teaching everyone to. 00:27:36.410 --> 00:27:44.510 Be able to recognize these clusters rather than individual things that do not happen, 00:27:44.840 --> 00:27:52.130 like a photograph or a nice drawing that says, if you see whale eye, it means this. 00:27:52.430 --> 00:27:55.370 And of course it doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean anything. 00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:57.685 It doesn't mean anything on its own anyway. 00:27:58.205 --> 00:28:01.235 You know, it's when it's combined with something else. 00:28:01.655 --> 00:28:06.545 So that's the kind of thing that we, we spend a lot of time with students, 00:28:07.115 --> 00:28:13.595 um, going over, you know, let's look at these dogs and let's look at what you 00:28:13.595 --> 00:28:15.515 know, what is happening in front of us. 00:28:15.755 --> 00:28:20.705 Not let's be clever and tell everyone what we think the dogs are thinking or feeling. 00:28:21.950 --> 00:28:22.820 Because we don't know. 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:24.800 Anke: No, you know what? 00:28:24.800 --> 00:28:29.030 You were just, the way you explained it, it reminds me of, uh, you 00:28:29.030 --> 00:28:31.070 know, like lie detecting stuff. 00:28:31.190 --> 00:28:34.910 You know, when there's somebody on LinkedIn I follow and it's almost about 00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:37.520 deception detection is his thing, right? 00:28:37.610 --> 00:28:37.700 Yes. 00:28:37.760 --> 00:28:39.350 And he will exactly say that. 00:28:39.350 --> 00:28:41.480 You know, like Wilson, somebody. 00:28:41.690 --> 00:28:42.830 Uh, I don't know. 00:28:42.890 --> 00:28:45.440 Like their shoulders are tense, you know? 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:45.740 Yeah. 00:28:45.740 --> 00:28:46.850 And exactly that. 00:28:46.850 --> 00:28:50.060 It's not like you can't just anybody, like I might just have kind of 00:28:50.060 --> 00:28:51.680 on my neck in, in the yoga class. 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:52.310 Right, exactly. 00:28:52.310 --> 00:28:55.310 So it doesn't mean I'm lying to you just because my shoulders a bit hunched. 00:28:55.310 --> 00:28:56.990 So it's not in isolation. 00:28:56.990 --> 00:28:59.720 You have to see the, see that context uhhuh, it, it seems 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:00.980 it's exactly the same thing. 00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:01.310 Right? 00:29:01.310 --> 00:29:03.620 And nobody really goes that deep with that. 00:29:03.980 --> 00:29:04.430 Dale: No. 00:29:04.760 --> 00:29:07.670 No, and I think that's the really important thing is that 00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:09.290 we can jump to conclusions. 00:29:09.290 --> 00:29:13.040 It takes us down the wrong path, uh, to the detriment of the 00:29:13.040 --> 00:29:15.140 dog, you know, I have to say. 00:29:15.890 --> 00:29:20.270 Um, but also to the detriment of the relationship with the 00:29:20.270 --> 00:29:22.280 person that lives with the dog. 00:29:22.610 --> 00:29:27.650 Uh, so we have to be really, really careful about making, you know, these. 00:29:28.550 --> 00:29:34.460 Truth, uh, sweeping statements about dogs, all dogs, you know, when 00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:37.130 they do this, it means X, Y, and Z. 00:29:37.700 --> 00:29:41.450 And of course that's, you know, that's simply not, not true at all. 00:29:41.450 --> 00:29:48.920 Um, and it's a bit like, you know, we are good generally at when we meet 00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:53.930 someone, we can feel uncomfortable because they're, the words they're saying, 00:29:54.410 --> 00:29:57.140 don't match with their body language. 00:29:57.995 --> 00:30:00.035 That can make us feel uncomfortable. 00:30:00.905 --> 00:30:05.975 Um, so when I think about that and I think about how good dogs are at reading 00:30:06.125 --> 00:30:09.845 body language, how often must they get? 00:30:11.780 --> 00:30:18.530 This absolutely contradiction in terms of our behavior and our body language. 00:30:18.950 --> 00:30:23.570 Uh, and that must cause them discomfort and make them feel, you know, uh, 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.330 maybe a bit out of sorts, who knows? 00:30:27.080 --> 00:30:31.550 But I think we have got to not just be observing dog body 00:30:31.550 --> 00:30:33.140 language, but we have to be in. 00:30:33.800 --> 00:30:39.620 Understand that what we bring into that changes everything for the dog. 00:30:40.370 --> 00:30:45.740 So some of some students, you know, might be very stiff in their 00:30:45.740 --> 00:30:48.980 behavior because they don't want to do anything wrong around the dog. 00:30:49.250 --> 00:30:54.380 So they'll, they'll stay really sure, uh, really still, and you'll see that 00:30:54.380 --> 00:30:59.990 the dogs are not sure of them because they're trying so hard to not give any. 00:31:00.320 --> 00:31:04.400 Signs of, you know, I'm not uncomfortable, but I'm just gonna stay really still. 00:31:04.850 --> 00:31:08.300 And then what happens is the dog looks at them and, and it's like, whoa. 00:31:09.050 --> 00:31:10.730 You know, you're acting weird. 00:31:11.270 --> 00:31:16.910 Um, and so sometimes we're not aware of what we are doing. 00:31:17.690 --> 00:31:23.270 Um, and then so what you can, one thing that you can get is if you're 00:31:23.270 --> 00:31:28.280 observing the dog and your dog changes their reaction, you have to think. 00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:30.200 Did I do something? 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:30.800 There was that me. 00:31:31.520 --> 00:31:32.930 Did I step forward? 00:31:32.930 --> 00:31:34.460 Did I loom a wee bit? 00:31:35.030 --> 00:31:38.540 Instead of thinking, oh, I've read the dog's body language. 00:31:38.630 --> 00:31:39.830 We're part of it. 00:31:40.340 --> 00:31:41.930 Anke: Yeah, that makes so much sense. 00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:47.750 Actually, my, my very nice, my little kite, he, he used to growl. 00:31:48.020 --> 00:31:51.290 I like people, you know, people always said to me, he is like, you know, that 00:31:51.290 --> 00:31:53.090 dog wouldn't have done well with anybody. 00:31:53.875 --> 00:31:58.195 Because he would like his, when he was kind of excited to see me, he'd 00:31:58.195 --> 00:32:00.055 growl, like growling was his thing. 00:32:00.115 --> 00:32:01.135 Like that's what he'd do. 00:32:01.135 --> 00:32:05.935 And if you go by the buy the book, so all the dog growls, whatever, like, not for 00:32:05.935 --> 00:32:10.315 this one, you know, like he never heard a fly, he never even stole a sandwich 00:32:10.645 --> 00:32:14.545 like he was, you know, but when he gets excited, he could pull his teeth out 00:32:14.560 --> 00:32:16.555 and, and give you that growl, you know? 00:32:16.705 --> 00:32:16.765 Yeah. 00:32:16.765 --> 00:32:21.325 And, and he's like little and you know, that was just his way of. 00:32:21.670 --> 00:32:26.320 That's how emotion came out for him, you know, but you, you'd always have 00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:29.140 to, and now on top of it, he was black, you know, it was like, yeah. 00:32:29.140 --> 00:32:30.460 So people were always scared of him. 00:32:30.850 --> 00:32:31.330 Yeah. 00:32:31.335 --> 00:32:31.575 You know? 00:32:31.575 --> 00:32:31.815 Yeah. 00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:34.960 So, and you always have to explain like, no, he's just like very 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.470 sensitive and you just don't look at him like, just leave him alone. 00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:41.650 Like, don't try and be nice to him, you know, just leave him alone. 00:32:41.650 --> 00:32:43.600 But it was like a classic case. 00:32:43.600 --> 00:32:45.400 So I think like somebody who's just. 00:32:46.175 --> 00:32:46.925 Understands. 00:32:46.925 --> 00:32:49.265 Oh, dog growling means they're about to bite you. 00:32:49.535 --> 00:32:51.695 Well, they would've always felt threatened by him. 00:32:52.055 --> 00:32:52.115 Yeah. 00:32:52.115 --> 00:32:52.355 You know? 00:32:52.430 --> 00:32:52.920 Exactly. 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:56.345 When he was just kind of like, oh my God, like nerves are ramping up. 00:32:56.585 --> 00:32:58.325 Not quite sure here what's going on. 00:32:58.325 --> 00:32:59.615 You know, he was quite, yeah. 00:32:59.765 --> 00:33:03.440 Sort of this scatter cat and little like, you know, so it's, and it's 00:33:03.445 --> 00:33:06.035 Dale: this idea that everything always escalates, you 00:33:06.035 --> 00:33:06.365 Anke: know? 00:33:06.425 --> 00:33:10.145 Dale: You know, a growl always leads to a bite. 00:33:10.730 --> 00:33:15.620 You know, it's this escalation that they go up and, and you know, and 00:33:15.620 --> 00:33:17.300 that's not true either, you know? 00:33:17.990 --> 00:33:18.530 No, not with that one. 00:33:19.460 --> 00:33:20.735 So it not always true. 00:33:20.735 --> 00:33:20.975 Never. 00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:21.680 Mm-hmm. 00:33:21.685 --> 00:33:21.975 Yeah. 00:33:21.980 --> 00:33:22.280 Yeah. 00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:27.290 So, and I think that's the, the, the main thing for us is, um, actually, you know, 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:36.590 asking people to set aside all of those preconceived notions and start to question 00:33:36.770 --> 00:33:39.590 and start to really see what's going on. 00:33:40.130 --> 00:33:41.780 Uh, that's quite difficult. 00:33:41.780 --> 00:33:45.770 And Lisa and I both had students who have admitted. 00:33:47.055 --> 00:33:51.735 That they've really found it very, very challenging to begin with 00:33:51.795 --> 00:33:57.405 because you're having to really change, probably, you know, the way 00:33:57.405 --> 00:34:01.935 that you believed you were working correctly, which is absolutely fine. 00:34:03.105 --> 00:34:05.115 This is about enhancing your knowledge. 00:34:05.115 --> 00:34:07.695 It's not about saying everything you learned before is. 00:34:08.720 --> 00:34:10.070 You know, out the window. 00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:15.320 It's about saying, yeah, you've learned all that, but let's move on now. 00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:18.680 Not, let's not get stuck there just doing the same old, same old. 00:34:18.740 --> 00:34:22.370 Let's move it along and make things even better. 00:34:22.940 --> 00:34:26.810 Uh, and I think that that's what we've done individually in our businesses. 00:34:26.810 --> 00:34:32.420 So it was natural, you know, wasn't it really to try and bring that together 00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.060 and, and do it, you know, do it together. 00:34:35.450 --> 00:34:36.650 Um, we still. 00:34:37.025 --> 00:34:41.045 Do our separate things and we do things together and I think that 00:34:41.045 --> 00:34:46.565 keeps everything fresh and it keeps it interesting, you know, rather 00:34:46.565 --> 00:34:48.785 than for our students as well. 00:34:48.965 --> 00:34:53.465 It isn't just, you know, we are, we are on one stream and 00:34:53.465 --> 00:34:54.815 we, you know, we stick to that. 00:34:55.295 --> 00:34:55.565 Anke: Yeah. 00:34:55.745 --> 00:34:56.075 Love it. 00:34:56.075 --> 00:34:56.585 I think 00:34:56.975 --> 00:34:57.710 Lisa: that's something else. 00:34:57.980 --> 00:34:58.100 Sorry. 00:34:59.195 --> 00:34:59.845 Something else. 00:34:59.845 --> 00:35:00.045 I'm sorry. 00:35:00.050 --> 00:35:00.800 Didn't wanna cut you off. 00:35:01.580 --> 00:35:02.090 That's alright. 00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:04.280 It's just something I just thought of there. 00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:06.525 What is good practice when you are practicing? 00:35:07.475 --> 00:35:11.915 Any skills, any, any job role, not just sort of dog behavior or dog training 00:35:12.605 --> 00:35:14.915 is actually getting feedback as well. 00:35:15.215 --> 00:35:18.875 So Dale and I are so fortunate that we've got each other, you know? 00:35:18.875 --> 00:35:19.055 Yeah. 00:35:19.295 --> 00:35:22.655 And, and, and it's an important part of, of our work. 00:35:22.835 --> 00:35:26.990 We, well, we've always done it this way, you know, people often to say, oh yeah. 00:35:27.005 --> 00:35:30.425 So I, I look for, for somebody who, who's been doing it for years. 00:35:31.205 --> 00:35:31.385 Yeah. 00:35:31.385 --> 00:35:36.005 Well, they might have been doing it wrong for years, you know, that's no guarantee. 00:35:36.005 --> 00:35:36.575 And I think it. 00:35:36.980 --> 00:35:41.420 It's, it's trying to get students to look at and, and this critical, 00:35:41.450 --> 00:35:44.690 you know, looking at yourselves and going, how was that? 00:35:44.690 --> 00:35:45.680 Videoing yourself. 00:35:45.680 --> 00:35:47.960 See how you're, how you're doing, what you are doing. 00:35:48.020 --> 00:35:49.040 Oh my goodness. 00:35:49.430 --> 00:35:50.630 And we all have habits. 00:35:50.630 --> 00:35:52.760 We all have little things that we do. 00:35:53.120 --> 00:35:57.140 So it's just, just trying to get students to think about, you know, these things 00:35:57.140 --> 00:36:00.530 as well, as well as dog owners and what they're doing with their dogs. 00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:01.940 For the students as well. 00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:02.570 Anke: Yeah. 00:36:02.570 --> 00:36:03.200 I'll shut that 00:36:03.205 --> 00:36:03.335 Lisa: now. 00:36:03.335 --> 00:36:03.535 Anke: Love that. 00:36:03.540 --> 00:36:03.890 Love that. 00:36:03.890 --> 00:36:04.160 No. 00:36:04.460 --> 00:36:07.940 So where can people go and find out about your offerings? 00:36:07.940 --> 00:36:09.050 About what you do together? 00:36:09.055 --> 00:36:09.255 What? 00:36:09.410 --> 00:36:10.430 What you do separately? 00:36:10.670 --> 00:36:11.870 Where can people go find you? 00:36:13.100 --> 00:36:13.580 Lisa: Okay. 00:36:13.820 --> 00:36:17.900 Um, so we've got, without worry, canine education.co 00:36:18.050 --> 00:36:20.000 uk, uh, website. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.200 So, and you'll see on there there's CPD courses that are, you 00:36:24.200 --> 00:36:26.660 know, for professionals or those who want to go down that line. 00:36:26.660 --> 00:36:31.070 And we've also got them for, for you and your dog, for dog owners and guardians. 00:36:31.070 --> 00:36:32.840 So there's kind of two streams on there. 00:36:33.200 --> 00:36:37.880 Um, so yeah, have a look through the website and see, see what you fancy. 00:36:38.250 --> 00:36:39.750 And then we've got our own, and we're still, 00:36:39.870 --> 00:36:41.700 Dale: we're still on Facebook as well. 00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:41.910 Yes. 00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:45.210 So we, we do put a lot of stuff on there. 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:49.920 Um, so we try and we try and kinda keep everything up to date as best we 00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:54.960 can, but yeah, you can find us with without worry or you can find, you know, 00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:00.060 us individually even just search our names on, you know, were easily found. 00:37:00.720 --> 00:37:01.050 Anke: Awesome. 00:37:01.050 --> 00:37:05.280 Well, and obviously the links go straight below the, uh, podcast or videos. 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:08.060 So I'm gonna make sure you guys are easy to find. 00:37:08.060 --> 00:37:09.650 So thank you so much for coming. 00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:10.910 It's been an absolute delight. 00:37:11.150 --> 00:37:11.450 That's 00:37:11.450 --> 00:37:12.170 Lisa: been a pleasure. 00:37:12.175 --> 00:37:12.555 Thank you. 00:37:12.835 --> 00:37:13.675 Pleasure chatting with you. 00:37:13.765 --> 00:37:14.235 Thank you. 00:37:14.365 --> 00:37:14.795 Anke: Thank you. 00:37:15.970 --> 00:37:17.200 Thanks so much for listening. 00:37:17.720 --> 00:37:22.020 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:37:22.120 --> 00:37:23.900 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:37:24.690 --> 00:37:28.180 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:37:28.610 --> 00:37:34.180 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:36.650 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:37:36.650 --> 00:37:40.380 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:41.940 I'd love an introduction. 00:37:42.420 --> 00:37:44.250 Email me at Anke. 00:37:44.520 --> 00:37:48.755 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.