1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:02,340 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,340 --> 00:00:04,200 This is Ryan Rutan, joined, as always by 3 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,140 my friend, the founder, and CEO of startups.com. 4 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:11,640 Will Schroeder will you and I both know the trap visibility 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,540 feels like momentum, but attention isn't exactly 6 00:00:15,660 --> 00:00:17,550 traction in most cases. 7 00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:20,310 I think today we talk a little bit about this 8 00:00:20,310 --> 00:00:22,050 trade between applause. 9 00:00:22,725 --> 00:00:25,755 Outcomes and maybe make the case for less 10 00:00:25,755 --> 00:00:27,015 performing, more building. 11 00:00:27,285 --> 00:00:28,545 And will, this is nothing new. 12 00:00:28,635 --> 00:00:30,675 You can go back 20 years. 13 00:00:30,705 --> 00:00:34,155 Uh, and, and you've got a story about a particular investor 14 00:00:34,455 --> 00:00:36,825 who called you out a little bit and they, maybe we start there. 15 00:00:36,830 --> 00:00:37,060 Yeah. 16 00:00:37,515 --> 00:00:37,695 Yeah. 17 00:00:37,695 --> 00:00:38,745 This whole concept of. 18 00:00:38,825 --> 00:00:41,555 I wanna be as popular as possible and build my, my brand. 19 00:00:41,885 --> 00:00:44,130 I went through it before social media existed and, 20 00:00:44,135 --> 00:00:46,025 and I did it like, like the old fashioned way. 21 00:00:46,085 --> 00:00:46,415 Right. 22 00:00:46,745 --> 00:00:48,515 And so, um, are you mailing 23 00:00:48,515 --> 00:00:49,235 people letters? 24 00:00:49,235 --> 00:00:50,795 Actually, I wanna, what was the old fashioned? 25 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:51,635 They had work, right? 26 00:00:51,635 --> 00:00:51,935 Yeah. 27 00:00:51,940 --> 00:00:52,050 Yeah. 28 00:00:52,865 --> 00:00:55,265 So I, um, I'm living in Santa Monica and this is 29 00:00:55,265 --> 00:00:59,825 like 2007 ish Uhhuh, and I was just over the moon. 30 00:00:59,855 --> 00:01:01,745 So I had three companies that I was running. 31 00:01:01,745 --> 00:01:03,365 I had, you know, a couple that are, were venture 32 00:01:03,365 --> 00:01:06,035 funded at the time, like I was so on top of my life. 33 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:06,750 Right. 34 00:01:07,289 --> 00:01:11,700 And at the time I was so excited to finally have lots of peers 35 00:01:11,850 --> 00:01:14,220 because remember I was coming from Columbus, Ohio, which is 36 00:01:14,220 --> 00:01:15,509 awesome, but not a lot of peers. 37 00:01:15,509 --> 00:01:16,920 Yeah, I feel that right now. 38 00:01:17,220 --> 00:01:18,120 I feel that right now. 39 00:01:18,149 --> 00:01:18,450 How's that? 40 00:01:18,455 --> 00:01:20,280 Just, just left Antigua, Guatemala for Oh yeah. 41 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,735 Right, right. 42 00:01:21,735 --> 00:01:22,500 So right now 43 00:01:23,009 --> 00:01:26,580 I'm out seven nights a week and I remember like uh, Sarah 44 00:01:26,580 --> 00:01:28,949 and I, in the first full year that we were in Santa 45 00:01:28,949 --> 00:01:32,789 Monica, we hosted over a thousand people at our place. 46 00:01:33,419 --> 00:01:34,889 I mean, it was just nuts. 47 00:01:35,100 --> 00:01:36,539 I'm gonna go out on a limb here. 48 00:01:36,539 --> 00:01:38,190 And guess the place wasn't all that big either, so 49 00:01:38,190 --> 00:01:39,000 that was a lot of events. 50 00:01:39,029 --> 00:01:39,929 Oh, no know what it was. 51 00:01:39,929 --> 00:01:40,649 Or two big ones. 52 00:01:40,919 --> 00:01:44,940 We were in a building that had the most amazing rooftop pool. 53 00:01:45,479 --> 00:01:45,839 Okay. 54 00:01:45,839 --> 00:01:47,520 And so, so we would rent the whole rooftop and 55 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:48,539 have events up there. 56 00:01:48,809 --> 00:01:49,979 It was bananas, 57 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:51,539 but, but gimme a sense for frequency. 58 00:01:51,539 --> 00:01:53,639 'cause a thousand people, like So you fit a thousand up there. 59 00:01:53,639 --> 00:01:54,839 We're not talking one night though. 60 00:01:54,845 --> 00:01:56,429 I I, oh, we were talking every other night from 61 00:01:56,429 --> 00:01:57,030 this period in time. 62 00:01:57,030 --> 00:01:58,949 So like, yeah, it was every night nonstop. 63 00:01:59,039 --> 00:01:59,580 But that's okay. 64 00:01:59,580 --> 00:02:00,990 This is, this is a perfect setup. 65 00:02:01,450 --> 00:02:04,300 Because that's where my focus was, Uhhuh. 66 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:04,900 Right. 67 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,289 And to be fair, these were some amazing events. 68 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,660 I mean, we had incredible founders, like a lot of the 69 00:02:10,660 --> 00:02:13,780 founders that are well known in the startup community. 70 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,180 Uh, guys like Sean Rad from Tinder, you know, who started 71 00:02:16,180 --> 00:02:18,160 Tinder, Jamie Simoff, who started Ring, et cetera. 72 00:02:18,430 --> 00:02:19,960 Those were all the guys that were at the parties. 73 00:02:20,579 --> 00:02:20,700 Yeah. 74 00:02:20,730 --> 00:02:22,260 Uh, and these were all the guys that I was meeting for 75 00:02:22,260 --> 00:02:23,910 the first time and having an amazing time with. 76 00:02:24,570 --> 00:02:27,660 Anyway, we, uh, uh, you know, we're doing all these events 77 00:02:27,989 --> 00:02:31,109 and I'm doing yet another speaking event where it's some 78 00:02:31,109 --> 00:02:34,649 startup event and I'm up there talking about my business, 79 00:02:34,649 --> 00:02:36,480 but really about startups and, you know, whatever. 80 00:02:36,899 --> 00:02:41,519 As I'm kind of networking after the event, one of my investors 81 00:02:41,595 --> 00:02:43,890 in, in this company called Afford It, uh, walks up to me. 82 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:45,510 He's this great guy. 83 00:02:45,510 --> 00:02:47,820 He's a Persian guy named, um, Cameron Poor and Johnny. 84 00:02:48,180 --> 00:02:48,540 Right. 85 00:02:48,780 --> 00:02:52,200 Uhhuh and Cameron, who's very forward, right? 86 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:53,880 Very forward. 87 00:02:54,540 --> 00:02:58,620 Cameron sold price grabber to I think Experian, if I recall. 88 00:02:58,620 --> 00:03:02,010 It was a long time ago for $300 million, I think in cash, and 89 00:03:02,010 --> 00:03:03,359 you became an angel investor. 90 00:03:03,359 --> 00:03:04,440 Invested in my company. 91 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,170 He walks up to me, doesn't skip a beat, and he says, what 92 00:03:07,170 --> 00:03:08,340 the fuck are you doing here? 93 00:03:09,090 --> 00:03:11,025 I was like, whoa, dude. 94 00:03:11,315 --> 00:03:11,665 Right? 95 00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:14,430 I mean, not even a high will, right? 96 00:03:14,490 --> 00:03:14,790 Yeah. 97 00:03:15,465 --> 00:03:16,455 I was like, come again. 98 00:03:16,755 --> 00:03:17,085 Right. 99 00:03:17,415 --> 00:03:18,105 Uh, I was scared. 100 00:03:18,105 --> 00:03:19,365 I was like, what just happened? 101 00:03:19,365 --> 00:03:19,425 Yeah. 102 00:03:19,515 --> 00:03:22,935 He's like, I just put money into your company and 103 00:03:22,965 --> 00:03:25,455 every night I see you at another one of these events. 104 00:03:25,545 --> 00:03:26,745 What are you doing here? 105 00:03:26,835 --> 00:03:29,535 Why aren't you back at your company, building your company? 106 00:03:30,045 --> 00:03:31,725 I was like, damn, dude. 107 00:03:32,445 --> 00:03:32,595 Yep. 108 00:03:33,225 --> 00:03:34,545 The problem was he was right. 109 00:03:34,965 --> 00:03:35,625 He was right. 110 00:03:36,195 --> 00:03:36,405 That's 111 00:03:36,405 --> 00:03:36,855 a thing. 112 00:03:37,515 --> 00:03:38,055 That's a thing. 113 00:03:38,085 --> 00:03:38,475 Yeah. 114 00:03:38,475 --> 00:03:39,495 High level thinking. 115 00:03:39,495 --> 00:03:40,185 High level thinking. 116 00:03:40,185 --> 00:03:41,805 When they said engage in high level thinking, high 117 00:03:41,805 --> 00:03:43,755 level conversations, they didn't mean just being 118 00:03:43,755 --> 00:03:45,165 on a rooftop near a pool. 119 00:03:45,195 --> 00:03:46,275 That wasn't quite what they had in 120 00:03:46,695 --> 00:03:46,815 mind. 121 00:03:46,815 --> 00:03:48,105 You know what's so funny, right? 122 00:03:48,105 --> 00:03:48,975 I was just thinking about this. 123 00:03:49,575 --> 00:03:52,275 I think about how many times it would have been 124 00:03:52,335 --> 00:03:56,235 awesome if someone had pulled me aside and said, 125 00:03:56,235 --> 00:03:57,015 what the fuck are you doing? 126 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:58,110 Yeah, 127 00:03:58,590 --> 00:03:59,370 it was a gift. 128 00:03:59,430 --> 00:04:00,360 It was a gift. 129 00:04:00,570 --> 00:04:02,700 Doesn't feel like it for the first 10 or 15 seconds. 130 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:04,500 It's not, maybe not even the first 10 or 15 minutes, 131 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:05,940 but a couple days later you're like, you know 132 00:04:05,940 --> 00:04:06,480 what? 133 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:07,655 Well, the, there's something, well, the 134 00:04:07,655 --> 00:04:09,000 reality is I had no answer. 135 00:04:09,355 --> 00:04:10,050 Right, right. 136 00:04:10,110 --> 00:04:11,880 I was like, well, I mean, I'm technically, you know, 137 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,130 talking about the company, but I'm really personal brand 138 00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:15,180 building and just having fun. 139 00:04:15,390 --> 00:04:15,660 Right. 140 00:04:15,660 --> 00:04:15,720 Yeah. 141 00:04:16,485 --> 00:04:19,455 I was doing it because it felt good I was doing it. 142 00:04:19,550 --> 00:04:21,675 'cause it felt good 'cause yeah, I, I'd, I'd get up there 143 00:04:21,675 --> 00:04:23,805 and, and people would clap when I talked and you know, 144 00:04:23,805 --> 00:04:26,175 people would invite me over for dinners and high-fived and all 145 00:04:26,175 --> 00:04:28,755 these things and everybody kept saying how great my business 146 00:04:28,755 --> 00:04:29,895 was and all these things. 147 00:04:30,405 --> 00:04:33,855 And I realized that I was getting more addicted to 148 00:04:33,855 --> 00:04:36,975 the validation then any level of productivity. 149 00:04:37,380 --> 00:04:39,060 I think that's tension's a sugar high. 150 00:04:39,105 --> 00:04:39,325 It 151 00:04:39,325 --> 00:04:39,605 is, right? 152 00:04:39,605 --> 00:04:39,625 It is. 153 00:04:39,990 --> 00:04:40,110 But 154 00:04:40,110 --> 00:04:42,810 unfortunately it comes at the cost of, uh, progress, 155 00:04:42,810 --> 00:04:44,940 which is probably more of like a slow burn protein. 156 00:04:44,970 --> 00:04:45,210 Right? 157 00:04:46,350 --> 00:04:47,670 Gotta be real careful there. 158 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,140 How far we shift that diet. 159 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:50,310 Yeah. 160 00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:53,370 And, and so I, I looked at it and, and I really analyzed it. 161 00:04:53,370 --> 00:04:55,170 I mean, Cameron really did me a favor, and Cameron, 162 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,420 if, if you're, if you're listening, watching, thank 163 00:04:57,420 --> 00:04:59,850 you for doing me that favor, please be more kind next time. 164 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:01,950 But also thank you for the favor. 165 00:05:01,950 --> 00:05:03,270 He's like, wait, what do you mean I didn't 166 00:05:03,270 --> 00:05:04,230 shove you into the pool? 167 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:06,240 So I like being kind. 168 00:05:06,690 --> 00:05:09,355 Anyway, so we ended up, you know, we don't like saying. 169 00:05:09,909 --> 00:05:12,760 We've gotta change our focus. 170 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,670 Uhhuh our, our focus was, again, me getting out there 171 00:05:15,670 --> 00:05:17,320 and me doing the events and things like that. 172 00:05:17,890 --> 00:05:21,849 And I remember around this time, this is sort of related, right? 173 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,070 There's a guy that you know of, uh, Dharmesh Shaw. 174 00:05:24,070 --> 00:05:25,690 He's the co-founder of HubSpot. 175 00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:28,380 Sure, and I've known DMH for a really long time. 176 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,719 Uh, not super well, but like we started kind of the same 177 00:05:30,719 --> 00:05:33,690 business back in 2004 and that's how we got to know each other. 178 00:05:33,870 --> 00:05:36,030 I remember around that time that I was doing my 179 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,989 publicity tour, DMH was just heads down building HubSpot. 180 00:05:40,049 --> 00:05:41,400 I remember what he told me what HubSpot was. 181 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,500 I still had no idea what it was back then, but I remember 182 00:05:43,500 --> 00:05:46,890 around that time he started to just arc hard 'cause 183 00:05:46,890 --> 00:05:48,030 Dartmouth was actually working. 184 00:05:48,885 --> 00:05:49,275 Right. 185 00:05:49,305 --> 00:05:53,115 Like where I was out, like shaking hands and high fiving. 186 00:05:53,505 --> 00:05:53,745 Yeah. 187 00:05:53,745 --> 00:05:54,915 He was back home working. 188 00:05:55,365 --> 00:05:56,025 That's the thing, man. 189 00:05:56,055 --> 00:05:58,065 And, and those, like, when you're doing it though, it's, 190 00:05:58,065 --> 00:06:01,695 it can be so confusing because those likes can feel like lift. 191 00:06:01,695 --> 00:06:02,190 Right, right. 192 00:06:02,355 --> 00:06:05,265 Like again, like applause is not a KPI. 193 00:06:05,505 --> 00:06:05,655 Right. 194 00:06:05,655 --> 00:06:06,765 But it can feel like it. 195 00:06:06,770 --> 00:06:06,950 Right. 196 00:06:06,955 --> 00:06:07,155 Right. 197 00:06:07,185 --> 00:06:08,535 It can feel like lift. 198 00:06:09,105 --> 00:06:11,745 Until you check the runway and then all of a sudden 199 00:06:11,745 --> 00:06:12,735 it becomes very apparent. 200 00:06:12,735 --> 00:06:15,555 It's like we don't seem to actually be lifting off and 201 00:06:15,555 --> 00:06:18,735 the end of the runway's getting closer and closer and closer. 202 00:06:18,915 --> 00:06:20,235 Here's where you see it now, here's the 203 00:06:20,235 --> 00:06:20,985 modern day equivalent. 204 00:06:21,015 --> 00:06:22,215 Social media, obviously. 205 00:06:22,275 --> 00:06:23,115 Yeah, a hundred percent. 206 00:06:23,115 --> 00:06:25,095 And, and, and that's why I said likes feel like Lyft. 207 00:06:25,095 --> 00:06:25,990 I was thinking like, right, right. 208 00:06:26,575 --> 00:06:28,435 Bringing the modern context, but I was like, oh, but there 209 00:06:28,435 --> 00:06:29,545 weren't likes back then. 210 00:06:29,545 --> 00:06:30,175 Sort of kind of, 211 00:06:30,475 --> 00:06:32,905 you and I don't spend enough time on social media, and I 212 00:06:32,905 --> 00:06:35,485 assume you, you, you could make that as an argument for the 213 00:06:35,485 --> 00:06:36,745 better argument, for the worse. 214 00:06:37,075 --> 00:06:41,425 However, when I'm on there, all I keep thinking is. 215 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:42,840 Who has time for this? 216 00:06:43,230 --> 00:06:46,560 Who has this, this much time for this and at what expense? 217 00:06:46,830 --> 00:06:47,640 That, that's always my thought. 218 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:48,090 Social media for 219 00:06:48,090 --> 00:06:49,260 me, man, it you'll appreciate this. 220 00:06:49,260 --> 00:06:51,480 It started to feel like the new version of 221 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:52,620 meetings about meetings. 222 00:06:52,740 --> 00:06:55,260 It feels like what I'm doing when I'm not working and I just 223 00:06:55,260 --> 00:06:57,480 can't, I can only tolerate a little bit of it at a time. 224 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:58,830 I'm like, I know I need to be out there. 225 00:06:59,010 --> 00:07:01,320 I know I need to be engaging and I want to be. 226 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:02,670 Yeah, I legitimately do. 227 00:07:02,910 --> 00:07:06,000 And yet every time I'm on there it, one of two things happens. 228 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,290 Either I look at it and I go. 229 00:07:08,025 --> 00:07:08,355 No. 230 00:07:08,355 --> 00:07:12,015 And I run away or I get sucked in and I go down the rabbit 231 00:07:12,015 --> 00:07:14,355 hole and then I come up like a day and a half, two days 232 00:07:14,355 --> 00:07:16,725 later and I go, holy shit. 233 00:07:16,935 --> 00:07:19,785 A lot of engagement happened and nothing else. 234 00:07:19,785 --> 00:07:20,625 Like Right, exactly. 235 00:07:20,625 --> 00:07:23,235 I'm behind on all the other stuff I was supposed to be 236 00:07:23,235 --> 00:07:25,034 doing and it never feels right. 237 00:07:25,455 --> 00:07:27,975 And I'm not saying it's impossible to do both. 238 00:07:28,070 --> 00:07:29,835 A, a good example who, of someone who 239 00:07:29,835 --> 00:07:32,415 I think is superhuman is David Meyer Hansen. 240 00:07:32,655 --> 00:07:39,825 He is all over x. 24 7 all the time on a million topics, 241 00:07:40,095 --> 00:07:41,985 and the guy's releasing product all the time. 242 00:07:41,985 --> 00:07:44,415 Now he also built his business 25 years ago. 243 00:07:44,805 --> 00:07:45,195 True. 244 00:07:45,225 --> 00:07:46,635 So he's got a bit of a headstart on this one. 245 00:07:47,025 --> 00:07:49,695 But you know, he and Jason Fried have always been out there, 246 00:07:49,725 --> 00:07:52,665 you know, always been, and, and they're, they're phenomenal 247 00:07:52,665 --> 00:07:55,390 marketers in that way, but they also get shit done. 248 00:07:56,234 --> 00:07:56,474 Yeah. 249 00:07:56,474 --> 00:07:57,255 They get shit done. 250 00:07:57,284 --> 00:08:01,604 Uh, d HH is also like winning races in a car simultaneously, 251 00:08:01,604 --> 00:08:04,244 while, while tweeting and, and building a business. 252 00:08:04,244 --> 00:08:05,114 I don't understand how 253 00:08:05,145 --> 00:08:05,265 Yeah. 254 00:08:05,265 --> 00:08:07,604 That guy's, the next level, you get that Elon Musk level, right? 255 00:08:07,604 --> 00:08:10,304 Where somebody who's just like so invested, uh, can do both. 256 00:08:10,364 --> 00:08:10,515 Yeah. 257 00:08:10,575 --> 00:08:12,224 But, but I think that's incredibly rare. 258 00:08:12,585 --> 00:08:14,025 I think most of what I see. 259 00:08:14,190 --> 00:08:18,270 Are people that are wildly focused on that attention. 260 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:20,760 And again, I wanna say I get it. 261 00:08:20,910 --> 00:08:22,080 I mean, I, I've lived it. 262 00:08:22,140 --> 00:08:22,710 I get it. 263 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,610 We're in a business that is just riddled with insecurity. 264 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:27,725 Riddled with insecurity. 265 00:08:27,725 --> 00:08:28,080 Oh, for sure. 266 00:08:28,350 --> 00:08:28,560 Right? 267 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:28,710 For sure. 268 00:08:28,710 --> 00:08:30,430 So like everything about what we do. 269 00:08:31,090 --> 00:08:34,540 Lacks validation, whether it's, Hey, is my idea any good? 270 00:08:34,540 --> 00:08:35,680 Am I any good? 271 00:08:35,740 --> 00:08:37,659 Did I get anything useful done today? 272 00:08:37,659 --> 00:08:37,720 Yeah. 273 00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:41,230 When I post something, whatever, it's, and I get 274 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,750 likes and comments and validation, which is really 275 00:08:43,750 --> 00:08:44,680 what we're talking about. 276 00:08:45,010 --> 00:08:46,330 It makes me feel good. 277 00:08:46,510 --> 00:08:49,450 It makes me feel good at a time when I'm not 278 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,040 feeling particularly good. 279 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,620 And I think that's where, that's the where the trap starts. 280 00:08:53,890 --> 00:08:54,730 That's exactly it. 281 00:08:54,730 --> 00:08:55,930 That's, I was getting ready to say that's, that's the 282 00:08:55,930 --> 00:08:58,060 glue that, that's that that sticks us to the trap. 283 00:08:58,090 --> 00:08:58,840 Right, right. 284 00:08:58,840 --> 00:08:59,740 When we can turn. 285 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,850 Uncertainty into a validation, hit however 286 00:09:02,850 --> 00:09:04,530 small or however useless. 287 00:09:04,590 --> 00:09:04,800 Right. 288 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,560 Simply by getting those likes, getting those high fives, it 289 00:09:07,590 --> 00:09:08,670 makes us wanna stay there. 290 00:09:08,790 --> 00:09:09,030 Right. 291 00:09:09,030 --> 00:09:11,310 As opposed to just running back into the abyss. 292 00:09:11,730 --> 00:09:15,030 So I'm not curious about why it happens, but I think we do 293 00:09:15,030 --> 00:09:17,160 need to shine the light on it and make sure that people do see 294 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,160 why it happens and understand that they do need to be careful 295 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,620 how much time they're spending there and, and whether or not 296 00:09:22,620 --> 00:09:23,730 they're, they're actually. 297 00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:26,290 Getting stuff done, you know, because I think there's, we 298 00:09:26,290 --> 00:09:28,480 can run into this thing where it's like a performance mindset 299 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,340 versus a a builder mindset. 300 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,365 Who am I spending my time for right now? 301 00:09:32,365 --> 00:09:32,525 Right? 302 00:09:32,590 --> 00:09:36,010 Am I spending my time doing something for my audience? 303 00:09:36,420 --> 00:09:39,360 Or am I doing something for my, my users, my customers, 304 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,520 my clients, and I, I think that's where we have to be 305 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:42,540 really careful not to say 306 00:09:42,540 --> 00:09:42,810 that balance. 307 00:09:42,885 --> 00:09:43,085 Right? 308 00:09:43,090 --> 00:09:43,110 Right. 309 00:09:43,110 --> 00:09:43,620 Exactly. 310 00:09:43,830 --> 00:09:46,590 And I think for a lot of people it, it becomes a bit of like 311 00:09:46,590 --> 00:09:49,530 a self-propelling PR machine. 312 00:09:49,530 --> 00:09:49,590 Yeah. 313 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,970 Like you're more focused on how is the PR performing Sure. 314 00:09:53,970 --> 00:09:56,010 Than how is the business performing? 315 00:09:56,195 --> 00:09:56,485 Yeah. 316 00:09:56,580 --> 00:09:58,950 I see this a lot really with funded companies where 317 00:09:58,950 --> 00:10:00,690 they get to a point where they're like, everything 318 00:10:00,690 --> 00:10:02,190 has to be, how does it look? 319 00:10:02,205 --> 00:10:02,265 Yeah, 320 00:10:03,015 --> 00:10:03,255 yeah. 321 00:10:03,315 --> 00:10:05,115 Let's release this product or make this statement. 322 00:10:05,115 --> 00:10:06,915 Not necessarily 'cause it's the most important 323 00:10:06,915 --> 00:10:09,345 thing, but because it'll attract more investors. 324 00:10:09,525 --> 00:10:11,865 Let's do this because it'll get better attention. 325 00:10:11,985 --> 00:10:13,965 Let's post this because it'll, it'll, we think it'll go 326 00:10:13,965 --> 00:10:15,375 viral on, uh, social media. 327 00:10:15,945 --> 00:10:19,575 And I look at that and I'm like, okay, but is that really the 328 00:10:19,575 --> 00:10:20,685 best thing for your business? 329 00:10:20,685 --> 00:10:22,395 Like, is that actually gonna build the business? 330 00:10:22,545 --> 00:10:22,665 Yeah. 331 00:10:22,665 --> 00:10:23,865 And the answer is usually no. 332 00:10:23,865 --> 00:10:24,765 Which I think is interesting. 333 00:10:25,035 --> 00:10:25,635 Yeah, for sure. 334 00:10:25,695 --> 00:10:27,555 I, again, like, you know, popularity 335 00:10:27,555 --> 00:10:28,845 doesn't equal progress. 336 00:10:29,250 --> 00:10:31,770 High fives don't equal product market fit. 337 00:10:32,189 --> 00:10:33,810 And I think there's something else that's really dangerous 338 00:10:33,810 --> 00:10:35,699 that can happen there is it can actually lead you 339 00:10:35,729 --> 00:10:37,140 in in the wrong directions. 340 00:10:37,140 --> 00:10:37,319 Right? 341 00:10:37,324 --> 00:10:37,365 Right. 342 00:10:37,370 --> 00:10:40,319 Instead of really validating stuff with the people 343 00:10:40,319 --> 00:10:41,819 that that matter the most. 344 00:10:41,819 --> 00:10:41,969 Right. 345 00:10:41,969 --> 00:10:44,310 Not that having an audience is a proxy isn't a bad thing, 346 00:10:44,819 --> 00:10:46,949 but I think there are times, and I've certainly fallen, 347 00:10:47,010 --> 00:10:50,610 uh, prey to this where because I started to get validation 348 00:10:50,610 --> 00:10:53,880 around a concept or something, I started double down on that. 349 00:10:54,285 --> 00:10:57,015 Because it's happening in social or it's happening in, 350 00:10:57,015 --> 00:11:01,214 in, within my audience or, or my network, as opposed to I've 351 00:11:01,214 --> 00:11:04,305 tested this within the actual user base, within our customers, 352 00:11:04,305 --> 00:11:05,474 within our clients, right? 353 00:11:05,474 --> 00:11:07,155 And it's achieving the results we want there. 354 00:11:07,604 --> 00:11:10,635 You can actually start building the wrong stuff simply based 355 00:11:10,635 --> 00:11:12,675 on that signaling, and that is 356 00:11:12,675 --> 00:11:13,959 super, super dangerous. 357 00:11:14,595 --> 00:11:17,985 I remember watching this in real time years ago. 358 00:11:18,074 --> 00:11:20,295 The fact that you probably don't even remember this company 359 00:11:20,295 --> 00:11:21,705 is, is such a perfect why. 360 00:11:21,705 --> 00:11:22,635 It's gonna be a perfect example. 361 00:11:23,205 --> 00:11:23,835 It, it was called Quibi. 362 00:11:24,824 --> 00:11:25,245 Okay. 363 00:11:25,545 --> 00:11:27,555 And a lot of people won't remember this, but this was, 364 00:11:27,584 --> 00:11:30,975 this was co-founded by Meg Whitman, who was the rockstar, 365 00:11:30,975 --> 00:11:32,295 CEO of eBay back in the day. 366 00:11:32,324 --> 00:11:32,655 There we go. 367 00:11:32,655 --> 00:11:32,775 Yep. 368 00:11:32,775 --> 00:11:33,975 And Jeffrey Katzenberg. 369 00:11:34,125 --> 00:11:34,454 Right. 370 00:11:34,515 --> 00:11:37,665 You know, actual, uh, total g within the, in the media space. 371 00:11:38,055 --> 00:11:39,765 And it was supposed to be short form content. 372 00:11:39,795 --> 00:11:41,625 I guess in retrospect, it might've been what 373 00:11:41,625 --> 00:11:43,755 TikTok is now, you know, minus the social network. 374 00:11:44,204 --> 00:11:48,465 Ryan, they raised 1.75 billion. 375 00:11:49,199 --> 00:11:51,480 Dollars, billion dollars. 376 00:11:51,839 --> 00:11:52,140 Right. 377 00:11:52,140 --> 00:11:56,339 At a time when that was absolute bananas. 378 00:11:56,339 --> 00:11:56,520 Right. 379 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,860 That was the rest of what got funded that year. 380 00:11:58,890 --> 00:12:01,530 That's a lot now that, that was all the money back then. 381 00:12:01,530 --> 00:12:01,860 Right. 382 00:12:02,069 --> 00:12:04,079 And the reason I'm bringing this one up, it's not to, 383 00:12:04,079 --> 00:12:05,310 to knock a failed startup. 384 00:12:05,550 --> 00:12:09,150 It was all Quibi ever was, was a press release. 385 00:12:09,945 --> 00:12:13,425 It was, it was a $1.7 billion press release that never 386 00:12:13,425 --> 00:12:14,625 became an actual company. 387 00:12:14,865 --> 00:12:15,195 Right. 388 00:12:15,315 --> 00:12:18,975 And that's where the, the press and the tension and everything 389 00:12:18,975 --> 00:12:20,835 else becomes the product. 390 00:12:21,315 --> 00:12:24,705 And I think when that happens, it becomes real dangerous. 391 00:12:24,705 --> 00:12:26,415 And I see this within startups and like I said a 392 00:12:26,415 --> 00:12:28,515 moment ago, where they're like, they're posting 393 00:12:28,575 --> 00:12:29,625 everything on social media. 394 00:12:29,625 --> 00:12:32,895 I'm like, okay, but are you getting anything done? 395 00:12:32,895 --> 00:12:34,635 Like what's happening behind the scenes? 396 00:12:34,995 --> 00:12:35,265 Right. 397 00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:36,600 We went viral. 398 00:12:36,990 --> 00:12:37,140 Yeah. 399 00:12:37,140 --> 00:12:37,920 Okay, cool. 400 00:12:38,250 --> 00:12:41,190 But did virality net you any customers? 401 00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:44,460 Because if, if your viral moment led to zero customer 402 00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:47,610 acquisition or zero growth in any other way, then what 403 00:12:47,610 --> 00:12:48,000 are you actually doing? 404 00:12:48,735 --> 00:12:50,955 I'm not worried about making the viral, I'm making worried 405 00:12:50,955 --> 00:12:51,945 about making the payroll. 406 00:12:52,390 --> 00:12:52,510 Yeah, 407 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:54,270 let's focus on that. 408 00:12:54,270 --> 00:12:54,630 Perfect. 409 00:12:55,064 --> 00:12:55,335 Yeah. 410 00:12:55,335 --> 00:12:55,635 Right. 411 00:12:55,810 --> 00:12:59,655 And, and I think what happens though is that as you start to 412 00:12:59,655 --> 00:13:02,625 invest all of this energy on what I'm gonna call popularity, 413 00:13:03,045 --> 00:13:05,325 it comes at a tax of focus. 414 00:13:05,564 --> 00:13:06,885 It comes at a direct tax. 415 00:13:06,915 --> 00:13:10,125 And I, and I witnessed that firsthand when I was at 416 00:13:10,125 --> 00:13:12,110 that, you know, whatever that event was that, that, 417 00:13:12,195 --> 00:13:15,105 that Cameron approached me at and I was giving 418 00:13:15,105 --> 00:13:16,665 whatever speech I was giving. 419 00:13:17,290 --> 00:13:21,010 I was not at the office that I, I was taking that time and 420 00:13:21,010 --> 00:13:24,550 that energy away from what I could have spent at the office. 421 00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:26,319 And, and incidentally, that business failed. 422 00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:28,689 Did it fail because I was at networking events? 423 00:13:28,719 --> 00:13:29,469 Maybe not. 424 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:30,040 Right? 425 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:30,790 Maybe not. 426 00:13:31,270 --> 00:13:32,079 But it didn't help. 427 00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:34,329 It certainly didn't help. 428 00:13:34,329 --> 00:13:34,510 Right. 429 00:13:34,510 --> 00:13:35,620 It's not where I needed to be. 430 00:13:36,099 --> 00:13:39,699 Every event, every post, every, every one of these 431 00:13:39,699 --> 00:13:41,560 activities has a price. 432 00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:41,890 Yep. 433 00:13:42,250 --> 00:13:45,430 And you, you pay for it in things like product, you 434 00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:46,870 pay for it in things like. 435 00:13:47,295 --> 00:13:49,635 Revenue in hiring in all these other places where you're 436 00:13:49,635 --> 00:13:50,505 just not spending your time. 437 00:13:50,505 --> 00:13:50,594 Right. 438 00:13:50,594 --> 00:13:52,964 I mean, it really is just that simple. 439 00:13:53,354 --> 00:13:56,114 There's a, there, there, you know, we're playing a zero sum 440 00:13:56,114 --> 00:13:57,344 game when it comes to our time. 441 00:13:57,464 --> 00:13:57,555 Right? 442 00:13:57,555 --> 00:13:59,775 And anywhere else we're putting it means we're not 443 00:13:59,775 --> 00:14:01,604 putting into those places that might might matter most. 444 00:14:01,604 --> 00:14:03,104 Now again, this isn't, this isn't a case 445 00:14:03,104 --> 00:14:03,915 against social media. 446 00:14:04,094 --> 00:14:05,925 This isn't a case against publicity. 447 00:14:05,925 --> 00:14:09,375 This isn't a case against being out there and, and gaining 448 00:14:09,375 --> 00:14:10,785 some visibility in the world. 449 00:14:11,175 --> 00:14:13,395 But it is a cautionary tale against creating 450 00:14:13,395 --> 00:14:14,055 some balance there. 451 00:14:14,354 --> 00:14:15,704 You know, something that's really. 452 00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:18,750 Funny about everything we talk about here is 453 00:14:18,750 --> 00:14:20,490 that none of it is new. 454 00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:23,310 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 455 00:14:23,310 --> 00:14:27,150 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 456 00:14:27,150 --> 00:14:29,040 You may just not know it, but that's okay. 457 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,230 That's kind of what we're here to do. 458 00:14:31,230 --> 00:14:33,870 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 459 00:14:33,870 --> 00:14:38,010 solve these problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 460 00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:41,370 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 461 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:42,390 about what to do. 462 00:14:42,490 --> 00:14:45,760 Let us just give you the answers to the test and be done with it. 463 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,910 I feel like you get to play that game. 464 00:14:48,910 --> 00:14:50,410 You get to play the brand building game. 465 00:14:51,405 --> 00:14:53,475 When you've earned it from, from productivity. 466 00:14:54,135 --> 00:14:54,435 Sure. 467 00:14:54,855 --> 00:14:55,064 Yeah. 468 00:14:55,064 --> 00:14:57,225 So, so going back to the, the example I gave with Dharmesh 469 00:14:57,225 --> 00:15:00,555 at, um, at HubSpot, Dharmesh is on social media a lot, but the 470 00:15:00,555 --> 00:15:01,665 dude's a billionaire now, right? 471 00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:03,975 He does much money as much as he wants. 472 00:15:03,975 --> 00:15:04,515 He already won. 473 00:15:04,545 --> 00:15:04,905 Right? 474 00:15:05,295 --> 00:15:08,385 And so, like when I see somebody do it after the fact, right? 475 00:15:08,415 --> 00:15:09,885 You know, our, our, our good friend here, 476 00:15:09,885 --> 00:15:10,964 uh, Dan Martel, right? 477 00:15:10,964 --> 00:15:10,974 Dan. 478 00:15:11,525 --> 00:15:12,755 All over social media now. 479 00:15:12,845 --> 00:15:13,145 Right. 480 00:15:13,205 --> 00:15:16,325 For, for folks that don't know, uh, reason, we know Dan, uh, we 481 00:15:16,325 --> 00:15:18,995 bought one of his companies, uh, clarity that fm Dan, uh, we've 482 00:15:18,995 --> 00:15:21,695 known Dan for a long time, but, but Dan's all over social media. 483 00:15:21,755 --> 00:15:25,745 But to Dan's credit, the reason he can be all over social media 484 00:15:26,255 --> 00:15:29,015 is because he already built a successful business behind it. 485 00:15:29,375 --> 00:15:29,585 Correct. 486 00:15:29,585 --> 00:15:29,735 Right. 487 00:15:29,975 --> 00:15:33,635 So like, Dan paid his dues and now he's going for the views. 488 00:15:33,755 --> 00:15:34,115 Right? 489 00:15:34,265 --> 00:15:34,355 Yeah. 490 00:15:34,385 --> 00:15:37,115 But he's actually on the right order. 491 00:15:37,505 --> 00:15:38,770 Where I get concern is when you flip it. 492 00:15:39,689 --> 00:15:42,180 When you're like, I wanna be really popular and maybe 493 00:15:42,180 --> 00:15:43,140 I'll build a business. 494 00:15:43,380 --> 00:15:43,469 Yes. 495 00:15:43,469 --> 00:15:43,859 In that end, 496 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,170 poorly, most of the time it does, man. 497 00:15:46,349 --> 00:15:46,739 It does. 498 00:15:46,775 --> 00:15:50,609 I I think that brand building is almost a pure cost center 499 00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:54,420 until the product starts to print proof or profit. 500 00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:54,810 Right. 501 00:15:55,109 --> 00:15:55,680 One of the two. 502 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:56,729 And ideally profit. 503 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:57,180 Right. 504 00:15:57,180 --> 00:15:59,609 I, and again, like nothing wrong with doing some brand building, 505 00:15:59,910 --> 00:16:02,640 but I think it, it cannot be the center of the universe. 506 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,609 It cannot be your, your sole focus until you're, you're 507 00:16:05,609 --> 00:16:06,510 further along to your point. 508 00:16:07,035 --> 00:16:09,045 Building on that some more, like this happens a lot with 509 00:16:09,045 --> 00:16:12,855 venture funded companies because they get into this 510 00:16:12,855 --> 00:16:17,805 moment where all of a sudden they have money and validation. 511 00:16:17,835 --> 00:16:17,985 Yeah. 512 00:16:18,405 --> 00:16:20,265 But they haven't had to produce yet. 513 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,600 It's a very dangerous trap and maybe where I was when I was 514 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,430 out giving those speeches, we had just raised some money. 515 00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:26,755 Yeah, I was gonna ask. 516 00:16:26,939 --> 00:16:27,270 Right. 517 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,069 Not crazy money, not Quibi money. 518 00:16:29,699 --> 00:16:30,000 Right? 519 00:16:30,001 --> 00:16:30,011 Right. 520 00:16:30,750 --> 00:16:32,579 That'd been cool, but, but you get to this thing 521 00:16:32,579 --> 00:16:35,010 where big name investors just put money into you. 522 00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:35,430 Right. 523 00:16:35,430 --> 00:16:37,410 So you're feeling pumped and validated about that. 524 00:16:37,439 --> 00:16:37,650 Right. 525 00:16:37,709 --> 00:16:37,949 Okay. 526 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:39,420 You want to go out and you want to tell that 527 00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:40,439 story, which makes sense. 528 00:16:40,439 --> 00:16:42,180 There is some value in telling that story. 529 00:16:42,750 --> 00:16:45,990 However, there has to be a part of us that 530 00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:47,520 at the same time says. 531 00:16:47,925 --> 00:16:49,995 Right now, this is just a honeymoon period. 532 00:16:50,025 --> 00:16:51,105 It means nothing. 533 00:16:51,495 --> 00:16:51,795 Right. 534 00:16:51,824 --> 00:16:52,064 Right. 535 00:16:52,095 --> 00:16:56,145 This doesn't actually become real until we show up with 536 00:16:56,145 --> 00:16:57,255 the revenue to back it up. 537 00:16:57,615 --> 00:16:58,064 Right, exactly. 538 00:16:58,064 --> 00:16:59,805 And they're after, you know, profit and sustainability. 539 00:17:00,285 --> 00:17:00,405 Yeah. 540 00:17:00,405 --> 00:17:04,035 And I think for a lot of businesses they, they can't seem 541 00:17:04,035 --> 00:17:06,254 to get the importance of that. 542 00:17:06,765 --> 00:17:07,395 Front and center. 543 00:17:07,395 --> 00:17:07,455 Yeah. 544 00:17:08,055 --> 00:17:10,875 I raise money doesn't equal, I've built a business. 545 00:17:11,175 --> 00:17:11,385 Right. 546 00:17:11,385 --> 00:17:11,655 Correct. 547 00:17:11,655 --> 00:17:12,255 That comes later. 548 00:17:12,255 --> 00:17:12,405 Correct. 549 00:17:12,555 --> 00:17:13,065 If at all. 550 00:17:13,065 --> 00:17:13,245 Yeah. 551 00:17:13,545 --> 00:17:15,405 But I think when we're in that, I raise money. 552 00:17:15,585 --> 00:17:17,115 I feel great going out on social. 553 00:17:17,115 --> 00:17:18,495 I feel great going to the conferences. 554 00:17:18,495 --> 00:17:19,395 I feel, you know, great. 555 00:17:19,395 --> 00:17:21,705 You know, running around town telling everybody how 556 00:17:21,705 --> 00:17:23,805 much, how much money I've raised and I, and I get it. 557 00:17:23,805 --> 00:17:24,135 I get it. 558 00:17:24,135 --> 00:17:24,675 I did it. 559 00:17:24,675 --> 00:17:24,855 Yeah. 560 00:17:24,855 --> 00:17:24,865 Yeah. 561 00:17:25,305 --> 00:17:28,545 But at the same time, it's like, yeah dude, but 562 00:17:28,545 --> 00:17:30,495 you also have to show up. 563 00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:31,320 Right. 564 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,629 And it's kind of hard to show up and build the business. 565 00:17:33,629 --> 00:17:35,370 You, you're telling everybody you're, you know, you've raised 566 00:17:35,370 --> 00:17:39,300 money to build without actually being at work, doing your job. 567 00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:40,560 Yeah. 568 00:17:40,649 --> 00:17:42,270 And, and I think honestly, like there's, there's an 569 00:17:42,270 --> 00:17:45,389 exponentiality to this trap too, because the inputs start to 570 00:17:45,389 --> 00:17:47,220 multiply with your popularity. 571 00:17:47,805 --> 00:17:48,165 Right. 572 00:17:48,225 --> 00:17:48,315 Mm-hmm. 573 00:17:48,315 --> 00:17:50,265 Because now all of a sudden, like as, as it starts to 574 00:17:50,265 --> 00:17:52,785 work and you start to get into those feedback loops, 575 00:17:53,205 --> 00:17:55,035 and all of a sudden you got dms, you got invites, you 576 00:17:55,035 --> 00:17:56,655 got panels, you got all these other things you need to do. 577 00:17:56,655 --> 00:17:57,015 Absolutely. 578 00:17:57,075 --> 00:17:59,745 Which is constant context switching. 579 00:17:59,925 --> 00:18:00,015 Right. 580 00:18:00,045 --> 00:18:03,255 Which is just, it's, it's such a killer for, for founders. 581 00:18:03,645 --> 00:18:07,575 And we get so caught up in these external optics and saying 582 00:18:07,575 --> 00:18:08,805 like, well, how will this look? 583 00:18:08,835 --> 00:18:10,965 As opposed to, what will this do? 584 00:18:10,965 --> 00:18:11,055 Right. 585 00:18:11,235 --> 00:18:14,025 And I think we gotta be super, super careful when 586 00:18:14,025 --> 00:18:14,840 we start to tow that line. 587 00:18:15,490 --> 00:18:18,460 I also think at some point all that investment can 588 00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:19,780 also build the wrong brand. 589 00:18:20,170 --> 00:18:20,980 Lemme give you some examples. 590 00:18:20,980 --> 00:18:21,130 Sure. 591 00:18:21,190 --> 00:18:21,430 Right. 592 00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:25,390 So I, I think for some folks they get into this and a lot of 593 00:18:25,390 --> 00:18:28,840 social media anymore is personal social media, which is good. 594 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,820 Which, which is authentic, you know, which it should be. 595 00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:33,760 The problem with that is it makes it harder 596 00:18:34,210 --> 00:18:34,660 to differentiate. 597 00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:38,650 So if, if I'm getting tons of likes about my political views. 598 00:18:39,719 --> 00:18:40,050 Right. 599 00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:40,679 Awesome. 600 00:18:40,709 --> 00:18:43,739 Your personal brand is, you know, really getting solid, but 601 00:18:43,739 --> 00:18:44,969 is that helping your business? 602 00:18:45,330 --> 00:18:47,399 You know, I, I've watched this in different ways. 603 00:18:47,489 --> 00:18:50,669 The founder and CEO of, uh, of Coinbase, Brian just 604 00:18:50,669 --> 00:18:53,850 blanked on his last name, was very staunch about being. 605 00:18:54,375 --> 00:18:55,845 Republican conservative views. 606 00:18:55,845 --> 00:18:59,294 I mean, from the start, he has been, um, unflinching. 607 00:18:59,715 --> 00:19:02,175 And while I don't agree with all his views, I respect the 608 00:19:02,175 --> 00:19:04,575 fact that that, you know, he's willing to stand in front of 609 00:19:04,575 --> 00:19:09,315 it, but now he's taking his personal views at the expense of 610 00:19:09,315 --> 00:19:11,625 Coinbase, right at the expense. 611 00:19:11,805 --> 00:19:12,975 You wanna take that to another level? 612 00:19:13,125 --> 00:19:14,355 Elon Musk, right? 613 00:19:14,415 --> 00:19:18,284 Look at the damage he's done to Tesla building 614 00:19:18,284 --> 00:19:19,305 his personal brand. 615 00:19:20,205 --> 00:19:22,935 I, I still don't understand how there haven't been actual, 616 00:19:22,935 --> 00:19:24,795 like, settled lawsuits outta some of the stuff he's done. 617 00:19:24,795 --> 00:19:26,715 Like it, he's definitely crossed the line. 618 00:19:26,775 --> 00:19:28,785 Like I get, like there's a time where like sometimes 619 00:19:28,785 --> 00:19:31,155 you see the founder is like the star of the show. 620 00:19:31,155 --> 00:19:31,245 Mm-hmm. 621 00:19:31,515 --> 00:19:33,225 And all of a sudden the product is just a prop. 622 00:19:33,255 --> 00:19:35,295 But he's taken that to an entirely different and 623 00:19:35,295 --> 00:19:36,555 very uncomfortable level, 624 00:19:36,615 --> 00:19:38,505 which, you know, statistically absolutely none of us 625 00:19:38,505 --> 00:19:39,315 will ever get to soon. 626 00:19:39,735 --> 00:19:39,975 Right. 627 00:19:40,245 --> 00:19:42,015 The only comment for a very long, we should have 628 00:19:42,015 --> 00:19:42,885 so much to risk. 629 00:19:42,885 --> 00:19:43,065 Right? 630 00:19:43,425 --> 00:19:43,905 Yeah, exactly. 631 00:19:43,905 --> 00:19:43,915 Exactly. 632 00:19:44,020 --> 00:19:44,240 So. 633 00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:47,410 What I'm saying there though is there is a point 634 00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:51,430 where your personal brand building is mis pointed. 635 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,090 Either it's really about you and your businesses happening 636 00:19:55,090 --> 00:19:59,080 to benefit from it, or you don't realize the correlation 637 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,030 between the shit you say online. 638 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:03,830 And how that affects your business. 639 00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:04,340 Right. 640 00:20:04,340 --> 00:20:06,560 There's an, oh boy, I, I'm, I'm trying to remember the, 641 00:20:06,590 --> 00:20:09,140 the name of another, it was like a, um, an online 642 00:20:09,290 --> 00:20:10,790 screen printing business. 643 00:20:10,940 --> 00:20:12,950 And this was like earlier in the year. 644 00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:13,010 Yeah. 645 00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:17,390 And they took a, a really, um, tough line with voting Trump 646 00:20:17,390 --> 00:20:20,060 and a bunch of other, like pretty significant stances. 647 00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:21,650 And again, this, this had like. 648 00:20:22,199 --> 00:20:24,300 Whether you're on either side of whatever party 649 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:25,350 you're with and whatever. 650 00:20:25,379 --> 00:20:27,239 Uh, this isn't, this isn't commentary on that. 651 00:20:27,389 --> 00:20:30,719 I'm saying when they took that stance, I remember watching 652 00:20:31,260 --> 00:20:34,409 the comment thread after they took that stance being like. 653 00:20:35,025 --> 00:20:36,795 I've been with you for years and I'm leaving. 654 00:20:36,795 --> 00:20:39,165 I'm blah, blah, and I'm thinking to myself, dude, 655 00:20:39,615 --> 00:20:43,365 there is a point where your personal brand or your personal 656 00:20:43,365 --> 00:20:46,785 feelings has a detrimental effect on your business. 657 00:20:46,905 --> 00:20:50,295 Now, some people will say, that's okay that I'm willing 658 00:20:50,295 --> 00:20:52,095 to bear that cost from my beliefs, and you know what? 659 00:20:52,095 --> 00:20:53,415 I will, your business do, you will standing 660 00:20:53,415 --> 00:20:54,075 on my principles. 661 00:20:54,135 --> 00:20:54,345 True. 662 00:20:54,375 --> 00:20:55,125 You, you, you bet. 663 00:20:55,125 --> 00:20:56,055 And I get that. 664 00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:57,765 And, and again, I'm not really trying to, to push 665 00:20:57,765 --> 00:21:01,095 back on standing up for your principles, but I am saying. 666 00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:04,030 These are examples of where your personal 667 00:21:04,030 --> 00:21:05,410 brand, so to speak Yeah. 668 00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:09,580 Can affect in a negative way your business or said 669 00:21:09,580 --> 00:21:12,670 differently where you're building you and your business 670 00:21:12,670 --> 00:21:14,200 happens to be tagging along. 671 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,480 Yeah, that's what I was saying before, like the founder is 672 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,210 the, is the, as the star and, and the, the, the product just 673 00:21:19,210 --> 00:21:20,290 becomes a prop at that point. 674 00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:24,190 There's a fair amount of people who don't even know that 675 00:21:24,190 --> 00:21:25,690 these people have a business. 676 00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:28,770 Ask nine outta 10 people, you know, I'll, I'll pick on Dan. 677 00:21:29,310 --> 00:21:31,860 Ask nine outta 10 people what Dan's actual business is, and 678 00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:32,565 they probably can't tell you. 679 00:21:33,405 --> 00:21:35,325 Yeah, they're like something to do with abs. 680 00:21:35,385 --> 00:21:37,305 I'm guessing maybe, I don't know, like 681 00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:38,205 probably we probably, we 682 00:21:38,205 --> 00:21:39,915 could never stop picking on you anyway. 683 00:21:39,915 --> 00:21:42,945 Anyway, my thing is that for those folks that are out there 684 00:21:43,185 --> 00:21:46,575 in their, their brand building, and again, I think it's a lot of 685 00:21:46,575 --> 00:21:50,685 attention seeking in validation, seeking behavior at some point. 686 00:21:50,895 --> 00:21:53,475 You gotta be like, damn, dude, if, if all I'm doing all 687 00:21:53,475 --> 00:21:56,385 day is just kind of building my brand or reinforcing my 688 00:21:56,385 --> 00:21:59,235 insecurity, really, where does my business benefit? 689 00:21:59,685 --> 00:21:59,985 Right. 690 00:22:00,105 --> 00:22:01,335 What, what, what is happening there? 691 00:22:01,340 --> 00:22:01,460 Yeah. 692 00:22:01,465 --> 00:22:01,545 Yeah. 693 00:22:01,545 --> 00:22:04,065 And I think it is, it is tough too because then to some degree 694 00:22:04,065 --> 00:22:06,915 it's like, well, can you even really separate those things? 695 00:22:06,915 --> 00:22:07,065 Right. 696 00:22:07,065 --> 00:22:09,315 Does that just mean that founders of, of companies, 697 00:22:09,315 --> 00:22:10,125 of certain sizes. 698 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,889 I can't really have a personal brand that is maybe at odds with 699 00:22:13,889 --> 00:22:15,090 the, with the company's brand. 700 00:22:15,389 --> 00:22:15,629 Right. 701 00:22:15,629 --> 00:22:17,189 And, and certainly you see this in corporate, right? 702 00:22:17,189 --> 00:22:19,770 Like there, there are very few corporate CEOs who are 703 00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:23,100 allowed to have their own crazy ass personal brand, right? 704 00:22:23,159 --> 00:22:25,439 And, you know, we're, you know, but we're still IBM. 705 00:22:25,530 --> 00:22:26,610 On this side of the fence. 706 00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:26,790 Right? 707 00:22:26,940 --> 00:22:28,050 You just don't see that, right? 708 00:22:28,050 --> 00:22:29,010 It's not the way it works. 709 00:22:29,399 --> 00:22:30,810 Uh, so corporates figured this out. 710 00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:32,129 Startups still haven't, right? 711 00:22:32,129 --> 00:22:33,600 We've seen this play out for the worst. 712 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,040 I agree many, many times ever. 713 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,990 Well, on the corporate side too, they've had, in some 714 00:22:36,990 --> 00:22:40,560 cases, decades of being able to establish a brand or establish 715 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,399 the culture, establish the presence, and when A-C-C-E-O 716 00:22:44,399 --> 00:22:48,600 comes out and goes way off the mark, now again, it's 717 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,820 different if you are a. 718 00:22:51,195 --> 00:22:52,695 Wildly successful. 719 00:22:52,695 --> 00:22:55,605 CEO I'm not saying you can't do damage C Musk, I'm, I'm not 720 00:22:55,605 --> 00:22:58,095 saying you can't do damage, but like you've already done 721 00:22:58,095 --> 00:22:59,400 the productivity part, right? 722 00:22:59,405 --> 00:22:59,595 Right. 723 00:22:59,595 --> 00:23:01,395 And now you wanna have a voice, you wanna change 724 00:23:01,395 --> 00:23:03,705 politics, you wanna be Reed Hoffman at LinkedIn, you 725 00:23:03,705 --> 00:23:05,985 know, standing up for the Democratic Party, so be it. 726 00:23:06,285 --> 00:23:06,645 Right? 727 00:23:06,645 --> 00:23:06,705 Yeah. 728 00:23:06,764 --> 00:23:09,225 But re, Reid Hoffman's already put in his. 729 00:23:10,020 --> 00:23:11,340 You know, he built freaking LinkedIn. 730 00:23:11,430 --> 00:23:12,330 Right, exactly. 731 00:23:12,330 --> 00:23:14,940 He's good for the rest of us who haven't built shit, 732 00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:16,409 we're not in that position. 733 00:23:16,409 --> 00:23:19,680 Like, like when we are out there kind of, uh, championing, we 734 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,030 are not building our business. 735 00:23:21,060 --> 00:23:23,399 You know, we are not like laying those bricks. 736 00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:25,260 And when I'm out there, you know, I don't on 737 00:23:25,260 --> 00:23:27,389 social media, which isn't enough, I'm being honest. 738 00:23:28,020 --> 00:23:29,310 I feel guilty the entire. 739 00:23:30,450 --> 00:23:33,420 And I blame Cameron Pours and Johnny, by the way, right. 740 00:23:34,350 --> 00:23:35,340 Whatcha doing out here? 741 00:23:35,490 --> 00:23:36,060 Yeah, exactly. 742 00:23:36,060 --> 00:23:38,280 When there's that angel and devil on your shoulder about 743 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,210 Uhhuh, you know about decisions. 744 00:23:39,780 --> 00:23:41,010 Cameron is definitely the devil. 745 00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:42,120 He is like, what the fuck are you doing? 746 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:43,170 Get back to work. 747 00:23:43,175 --> 00:23:43,195 Yeah. 748 00:23:43,530 --> 00:23:43,650 Yeah. 749 00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:44,940 And he is not wrong man. 750 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,300 To what extent do you think it's a, an order of operations thing? 751 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:49,350 Like more of a timing thing? 752 00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:51,930 So like, is it just that at, is it necessities that 753 00:23:51,930 --> 00:23:54,390 at the beginning we sort of have to choose company brand? 754 00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:57,530 Over personal brand until product market fit 755 00:23:57,530 --> 00:24:00,230 retention, you know, are undeniable at that point. 756 00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:00,320 Right. 757 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,010 Is that, is, is 758 00:24:01,010 --> 00:24:01,670 that the case? 759 00:24:01,850 --> 00:24:03,020 I think a couple things. 760 00:24:03,140 --> 00:24:05,840 Is the business sustainable are, are you making more 761 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,070 revenue than you have costs? 762 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:08,930 That's a cool time to start changing focus. 763 00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:09,500 Right. 764 00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:12,140 Which most of us aren't at that point yet. 765 00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:15,860 I think another part of it too is being very cognizant 766 00:24:15,860 --> 00:24:16,855 of the cost of that activity. 767 00:24:17,805 --> 00:24:18,794 Again, there's benefit to it. 768 00:24:19,125 --> 00:24:22,425 When I look at, um, you know, what, what Sam Parr has done 769 00:24:22,575 --> 00:24:25,605 with both the hustle, when, when Sam was running the hustle and, 770 00:24:25,635 --> 00:24:27,945 uh, now with his podcast, now he's running Hampton, et cetera, 771 00:24:28,365 --> 00:24:32,805 Sam's outside personality is the product, is the brand, right? 772 00:24:32,865 --> 00:24:33,524 It it is. 773 00:24:33,615 --> 00:24:34,575 And so it works. 774 00:24:34,695 --> 00:24:38,235 But in that case, that's an a wildly aligned composition. 775 00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:39,389 And Sam knows it. 776 00:24:39,570 --> 00:24:40,950 He's very good at executing. 777 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:41,550 Yeah. 778 00:24:41,550 --> 00:24:44,220 I would argue that very few of those exist where, where that 779 00:24:44,220 --> 00:24:45,899 even can be the case, right? 780 00:24:45,930 --> 00:24:46,139 Correct. 781 00:24:46,139 --> 00:24:47,550 There's just gonna be certain types of brands where 782 00:24:47,550 --> 00:24:50,010 it's like, it just kind of doesn't work here, right? 783 00:24:50,010 --> 00:24:53,430 Like there isn't a personality type that just aligns with 784 00:24:53,490 --> 00:24:55,920 the SaaS that we're building in a way that actually 785 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,090 makes it, makes it matter. 786 00:24:57,495 --> 00:24:59,325 You bet or look at another personality 787 00:24:59,325 --> 00:25:00,735 like Jason Kanis, right? 788 00:25:01,004 --> 00:25:03,735 Jason has mostly throughout his career, and I known 789 00:25:03,735 --> 00:25:06,135 Jason for a very long time, um, throughout his career, 790 00:25:06,315 --> 00:25:07,905 has been a media guy. 791 00:25:07,995 --> 00:25:10,395 You know, when he was Silicon Alley reporter, like in the late 792 00:25:10,395 --> 00:25:12,585 nineties, um, he did web blogs. 793 00:25:12,585 --> 00:25:13,605 Like a lot of people don't remember this. 794 00:25:13,605 --> 00:25:15,870 It was like the core, like he sold it for like $20 795 00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:18,015 million back in the day, maybe more to like a OL. 796 00:25:18,405 --> 00:25:19,845 Jason was a media guy. 797 00:25:20,025 --> 00:25:21,165 Now here's an interesting thing. 798 00:25:21,584 --> 00:25:24,645 In the mid two thousands, Jason did a little bit of 799 00:25:24,645 --> 00:25:27,975 a pivot, and he started a company called Mahalo, right? 800 00:25:27,975 --> 00:25:30,495 Mahalo was supposed to be a human powered search engine. 801 00:25:30,495 --> 00:25:31,935 It was actually a great idea. 802 00:25:31,965 --> 00:25:34,485 It was a great idea at exactly the wrong time. 803 00:25:34,860 --> 00:25:35,220 Right. 804 00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:36,870 And it was basically going head to head with 805 00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:38,340 Google, which was ballsy. 806 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:41,250 And so, you know, Jason was doing that, but Jason 807 00:25:41,250 --> 00:25:44,010 was still doing what, what became, um, this weekend? 808 00:25:44,010 --> 00:25:44,550 Startups. 809 00:25:44,730 --> 00:25:46,860 We shared office space at the time with Jason. 810 00:25:47,129 --> 00:25:49,379 He let us use some, some, some desks, you know, where we needed 811 00:25:49,379 --> 00:25:52,410 in Santa Monica and Jason was in there every day recording 812 00:25:52,410 --> 00:25:54,750 and, you know, building the Jason were in the media thing. 813 00:25:54,764 --> 00:25:55,470 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 814 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,320 But he's always, that is the business, correct? 815 00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,760 Well, but Mahalo failed. 816 00:26:00,245 --> 00:26:01,535 Now, did Mahalo fail? 817 00:26:01,565 --> 00:26:03,455 'cause Jason was in the other room interviewing 818 00:26:03,455 --> 00:26:04,625 Mark Seus for about vc. 819 00:26:05,645 --> 00:26:06,575 Maybe not. 820 00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:08,760 But it wouldn't have hurt 821 00:26:09,150 --> 00:26:09,600 again. 822 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,190 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 823 00:26:10,425 --> 00:26:11,850 I I I can't imagine you're gonna 824 00:26:11,850 --> 00:26:13,140 try to outrun Google. 825 00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:16,230 It probably should be the only race you're participating. 826 00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:17,160 Exactly, man. 827 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,230 And again, I, I'm not knocking Jason. 828 00:26:19,230 --> 00:26:22,020 I, Jason's a super introspective guy and, and I'm sure he's had 829 00:26:22,020 --> 00:26:24,180 his own thoughts about what it was, and I'm sure Pride has 830 00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:25,290 done his own podcast about it. 831 00:26:25,635 --> 00:26:29,055 But even when I was sitting there right, watching him 832 00:26:29,115 --> 00:26:31,875 record, I was thinking to myself, you should probably 833 00:26:31,875 --> 00:26:32,715 be in the other room, dude. 834 00:26:33,675 --> 00:26:33,885 Yep. 835 00:26:34,095 --> 00:26:35,355 Don't you get Cameron Pour and Johnny. 836 00:26:35,355 --> 00:26:37,755 Oh, funny thing is, uh, I'm Jason's board. 837 00:26:37,755 --> 00:26:38,025 Elon Musk. 838 00:26:39,090 --> 00:26:41,129 Talk about a guy who had, have no problem telling you how he 839 00:26:41,129 --> 00:26:42,660 felt about getting back to work. 840 00:26:42,665 --> 00:26:43,020 Yeah, yeah. 841 00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:43,770 Especially back then. 842 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:44,310 Anyway. 843 00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:44,490 I'm sure 844 00:26:44,490 --> 00:26:45,090 he heard about it. 845 00:26:45,270 --> 00:26:45,720 Yeah. 846 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:45,730 Yeah. 847 00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:48,570 But, but I think about that and I think, man, this attention 848 00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:50,970 seeking behavior, you know, has a certain cost to it. 849 00:26:51,210 --> 00:26:52,620 I think it's, you know, part of it's a balance, 850 00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:55,740 but I feel like, and, and I'm curious your thoughts. 851 00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:58,230 I feel like, like we talked about, there's a threshold 852 00:26:58,410 --> 00:27:01,110 where you've paid your dues and you get to be out 853 00:27:01,110 --> 00:27:03,600 there, social opinionated person, and then there's 854 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:04,920 a part where you haven't. 855 00:27:05,504 --> 00:27:08,294 Yeah, and I think part of that is a, is a function of, 856 00:27:08,475 --> 00:27:11,325 of focus and, and just being able to like, like we were 857 00:27:11,325 --> 00:27:13,965 saying before, like you, when, when you no longer need 858 00:27:13,965 --> 00:27:17,085 to spend every waking second figuring out how do I get 859 00:27:17,085 --> 00:27:17,835 this thing to profitability? 860 00:27:17,835 --> 00:27:18,705 How do I make payroll? 861 00:27:18,705 --> 00:27:20,294 How do we get the product actually launch? 862 00:27:20,565 --> 00:27:20,685 Yeah. 863 00:27:20,685 --> 00:27:21,915 Well listen, once that's behind you. 864 00:27:22,395 --> 00:27:25,275 You've got a little bit of tailwind, then you can choose 865 00:27:25,275 --> 00:27:26,475 how to spend the extra momentum. 866 00:27:26,475 --> 00:27:29,325 But until you, until you do, I, I see. 867 00:27:29,325 --> 00:27:32,715 Because we work with founders from, you know, cocktail 868 00:27:32,715 --> 00:27:35,055 napkin idea all the way through, through publicly 869 00:27:35,055 --> 00:27:38,505 traded companies and at the early stage of that. 870 00:27:38,535 --> 00:27:41,085 So if you're still, you know, waving that cocktail napkin 871 00:27:41,085 --> 00:27:43,785 around, trying to get the ink to dry, and I see you 872 00:27:43,785 --> 00:27:46,725 putting a lot of energy into trying to build momentum 873 00:27:46,755 --> 00:27:48,195 around the personal brand. 874 00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:51,300 Even if it's sort of kind of aligned with, it just 875 00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:52,200 still doesn't feel right. 876 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:52,710 Right? 877 00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:54,930 Like there are times where a little bit of thought leadership 878 00:27:54,930 --> 00:27:57,330 if you're trying to, you know, grab some clients and, and that 879 00:27:57,330 --> 00:27:59,550 is an important piece of that and that's been identified and 880 00:27:59,550 --> 00:28:01,440 it is a marketing activity. 881 00:28:01,770 --> 00:28:02,310 Sure. 882 00:28:02,670 --> 00:28:02,760 Yeah. 883 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,730 But so often it just feels completely dissociated with it. 884 00:28:05,790 --> 00:28:08,190 And I, I don't think that that's the right 885 00:28:08,190 --> 00:28:08,879 time or place for that. 886 00:28:08,879 --> 00:28:10,500 I do think you have to. 887 00:28:11,370 --> 00:28:13,560 Earn it in a sense that, and it's, it isn't about, I don't 888 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:14,429 want people to mishear me. 889 00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:16,260 This isn't earn it in the sense that like, well, you 890 00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:18,540 have to become something before you're worth listening to. 891 00:28:18,780 --> 00:28:19,770 It's not what I'm saying. 892 00:28:19,770 --> 00:28:20,250 It does help though. 893 00:28:20,445 --> 00:28:24,389 I'm saying I don't want to see you spend your booster rocket. 894 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:24,750 Yeah. 895 00:28:24,780 --> 00:28:26,760 Launching the wrong damn thing. 896 00:28:26,790 --> 00:28:27,030 Right. 897 00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:30,240 Meaning your personal brand or just some notoriety or 898 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,659 some publicity as opposed to your product, your 899 00:28:33,659 --> 00:28:34,649 customer, your service. 900 00:28:34,649 --> 00:28:34,889 Right? 901 00:28:34,889 --> 00:28:36,629 Like that's where I want to see you put that energy. 902 00:28:37,275 --> 00:28:41,025 The way I look at it is for folks that are out there 903 00:28:41,115 --> 00:28:42,735 building a real company. 904 00:28:43,425 --> 00:28:46,575 Yeah, they're usually too busy building a real company. 905 00:28:47,250 --> 00:28:47,489 Yes. 906 00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:50,070 Like, because it takes incredible amounts of focus and 907 00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:54,629 time and it's nearly impossible to envision that intense level 908 00:28:54,629 --> 00:28:57,870 of focus while responding to comments on frigging TikTok. 909 00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:58,379 Right? 910 00:28:58,379 --> 00:28:58,439 Yeah. 911 00:28:58,439 --> 00:29:01,050 Like again, I understand like for some folks they 912 00:29:01,050 --> 00:29:01,949 pull it off beautifully. 913 00:29:01,949 --> 00:29:04,320 I think very few of them, and the people that I do 914 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,929 see pull it off beautifully are freaks of nature. 915 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:07,350 Right. 916 00:29:07,379 --> 00:29:09,870 Almost like, like business freaks of nature. 917 00:29:09,929 --> 00:29:10,110 Right? 918 00:29:10,110 --> 00:29:10,229 Yeah. 919 00:29:10,590 --> 00:29:11,520 And, and they can do it. 920 00:29:11,699 --> 00:29:12,570 I'm not one of them. 921 00:29:12,995 --> 00:29:16,025 Like, I'm a pretty productive dude, but if I'm on Reddit 922 00:29:16,595 --> 00:29:19,985 arguing with people over, you know, whatever topic, I'm not 923 00:29:19,985 --> 00:29:21,695 back home building product. 924 00:29:21,725 --> 00:29:22,625 It's that simple. 925 00:29:22,685 --> 00:29:25,025 I've gotta choose a place to put my time. 926 00:29:25,235 --> 00:29:25,685 You do. 927 00:29:25,685 --> 00:29:27,185 And I think you have to be really careful here too. 928 00:29:27,185 --> 00:29:29,225 And if we think about what the kind of the difference 929 00:29:29,225 --> 00:29:30,935 between popularity and progress. 930 00:29:31,335 --> 00:29:34,395 One of those is a fairly durable good. 931 00:29:34,455 --> 00:29:35,655 The other one is not. 932 00:29:35,745 --> 00:29:36,075 Right. 933 00:29:36,075 --> 00:29:37,995 Popularity is super perishable. 934 00:29:38,265 --> 00:29:40,215 It has a shelf life by nature, right? 935 00:29:40,365 --> 00:29:41,715 You can be popular one minute. 936 00:29:41,715 --> 00:29:44,775 If you don't keep working at being popular, you're likely to 937 00:29:44,775 --> 00:29:46,725 become unpopular just because somebody else is gonna step 938 00:29:46,725 --> 00:29:47,625 into the limelight, right? 939 00:29:47,865 --> 00:29:51,045 Even if you try to stay popular, it's still very perishable. 940 00:29:51,225 --> 00:29:54,165 Um, we've seen plenty of people push the line and go from, from 941 00:29:54,165 --> 00:29:56,775 popularity into inanity, right? 942 00:29:56,775 --> 00:29:58,245 And that can happen really quickly too. 943 00:29:58,635 --> 00:30:00,195 I've always just had this feeling that, you know. 944 00:30:00,690 --> 00:30:02,280 Quiet work ages well. 945 00:30:02,729 --> 00:30:03,030 Right. 946 00:30:03,030 --> 00:30:05,280 The things that we're doing, the real magic that's 947 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,729 happening off camera is where most of, I mean, it's where 948 00:30:08,729 --> 00:30:09,570 all of it happens, right? 949 00:30:09,570 --> 00:30:10,949 You can go talk about it on camera. 950 00:30:11,129 --> 00:30:11,310 Yep. 951 00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:14,610 But are you really doing anything that's of note 952 00:30:14,639 --> 00:30:17,310 of meaning to the company, to the product, to the 953 00:30:17,310 --> 00:30:20,100 customers that that's happening out in the world? 954 00:30:20,429 --> 00:30:22,320 Generally speaking, in my, my experience, no. 955 00:30:22,439 --> 00:30:24,479 Look, I think for a lot of founders, like they're 956 00:30:24,479 --> 00:30:26,399 out there and they can, they have a choice. 957 00:30:26,459 --> 00:30:28,020 They can either spend their time. 958 00:30:28,505 --> 00:30:30,875 Building the business or spend their time building their brand. 959 00:30:30,875 --> 00:30:30,935 Yeah. 960 00:30:31,055 --> 00:30:33,845 You usually can't do both with the same veracity. 961 00:30:34,235 --> 00:30:36,815 And so I think in the early stages, you have to 962 00:30:36,815 --> 00:30:39,335 look at every one of those external interactions. 963 00:30:39,365 --> 00:30:41,465 You know, every, every post, every comment, everything that 964 00:30:41,465 --> 00:30:43,925 you're doing, uh, in building that brand, every networking 965 00:30:43,925 --> 00:30:46,985 event, uh, every trip to be at a conference, et cetera. 966 00:30:47,345 --> 00:30:49,655 I think you have to look at that as a cost. 967 00:30:50,064 --> 00:30:51,085 As a tax. 968 00:30:51,324 --> 00:30:53,455 I know people think of that as an investment, and maybe 969 00:30:53,455 --> 00:30:56,095 someday it becomes that, but not when you still 970 00:30:56,095 --> 00:30:57,445 have a company to build. 971 00:30:57,685 --> 00:31:00,925 The most important time spent is investing in the 972 00:31:00,925 --> 00:31:03,835 company, in the product, in the people in management, 973 00:31:04,195 --> 00:31:05,514 not building externally. 974 00:31:05,695 --> 00:31:07,735 Once you've made those investments and hopefully 975 00:31:07,735 --> 00:31:10,705 you get those returns, then you can reap the rewards of 976 00:31:10,705 --> 00:31:13,284 going out and building your brand and telling the world 977 00:31:13,284 --> 00:31:14,185 about how great you are. 978 00:31:14,304 --> 00:31:15,685 But until you've built. 979 00:31:15,835 --> 00:31:16,735 The product at home. 980 00:31:16,735 --> 00:31:19,105 Until you've built a sustainable business at home, 981 00:31:19,315 --> 00:31:22,465 you haven't earned the right to spend all of your time 982 00:31:22,705 --> 00:31:23,785 externally, brand building. 983 00:31:23,995 --> 00:31:25,135 And I hope that changes. 984 00:31:25,135 --> 00:31:26,935 I hope one day you do make that investment 985 00:31:27,115 --> 00:31:28,135 and you get that reward. 986 00:31:28,315 --> 00:31:31,975 And maybe both of us can be online all the time 987 00:31:31,975 --> 00:31:33,265 talking about our successes. 988 00:31:33,385 --> 00:31:35,605 Until then, get back to work. 989 00:31:36,750 --> 00:31:38,580 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 990 00:31:38,970 --> 00:31:41,880 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 991 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,000 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 992 00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:47,400 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 993 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,830 helping them win in the startups.com community. 994 00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:54,630 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 995 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:55,650 to see if it's for you. 996 00:31:55,890 --> 00:31:56,940 Could be just the thing you need. 997 00:31:57,150 --> 00:31:58,140 I hope to see you inside.