Hello and welcome to the sound on sound people and music industry podcast with me Sam Ingalls. I'm very very happy to be joined today by Siamäk Naghian and Andy Bensley of Genelec. Welcome gentlemen. 

Siamäk Naghian
Thank you very much. Hey Sam, thank you for having us.  

It's an absolute pleasure. I thought maybe we could start by talking a little bit about company history. Because Genelec's first loudspeaker, as I understand it, was the S30, which was produced in  1978 for the Finnish National Broadcaster. We're all quite used now to the idea of active loudspeakers,  but in 1978 that must have been quite an unusual product to start a company with.

Yes, you are right. During that time, active technology was not so popular and that was the start of general history and the whole story. And that has been a big shift also in the professional audio monitoring that started from that time. As you said, it was a joint project that established together with Finnish public broadcast.

And, uh, the idea was that they wanted to build a new facilities and for that they were asking for monitor loudspeakers and they, they were talking about, uh, what kind of technology they, they wanted to use and during that time, Ilbo Martikanen and Topi Partanen, they were studying in Helsinki University of Technology. 

And it's, it's very interesting because during that time also, it was very typical for broadcasters that they had their own research organization. And there was, there was a person from that organization who was studying also in the same university.  And he had asked ILPWA and TOPI if they could make such a product.

That was the beginning of a very fascinating history.  And, uh, after they published the product, after they made the product,  The actual project started two years before the company was founded.  So, it took for a while to develop the product. But after they demonstrated the products to the Finnish broadcasters and people there, they were very fascinated  because of the audio quality. 

And after that, they also introduced the product. In different shows and, uh, you know, that was the beginning of active technology in a wider mean in the, in the whole industry. And after now more than 40 years, if you now look at the industry, especially in the professional audio, very, very rarely you can see any other products than active technologies.

Absolutely. And whereas many loudspeaker manufacturers are primarily hi fi companies focused on the hi fi market, Genelec have always kept that focus on professional audio. How is that reflected in your design ethos? 

Well, I think that is very essential for, I would say that for the DNA of the company.

From the beginning, that has been the focus point. For whatever we have been doing. And I think is probably one of the most important thing is that when you are working with the professional audio, then from the beginning, they had to take into account the requirements that come from there. I have said many times that the fact that we have highly reliable products that, you know, last for a long time.

It was actually demand from our customers.  And I think that has been very, very essential part of whatever we have done, the, the foundation for the,  uh, philosophy of the company that, uh, started from the demand that professional users, they, they had been asking for. So for that, in a sense, it has been invisible, but very essential foundation for, for whatever we have been doing, and still, that is the core focus that we have.

So do you think it would be appropriate to describe Genelec as an engineering led company in that sense?  

Well, I think is, uh, it could be said like that. Maybe we have to also look at from the user point of view. I, I think it's a very nice crossroad here that between high technology and, and people who really do the sound, the art. 

So it's a combination of different things here, but I would look at technology as the foundation to enable  users to do what they want to do. Yes, the starting point is, of course, having a good technological foundation there, and everything starts from that.  

There are a lot of loudspeaker companies in the world now, but quite a few of them don't actually develop their own drivers.

They use off the shelf components, and they put those together to make a loudspeaker. However, as I understand it, Genelec design and produce everything in house, every part of their speakers. Does that give you an advantage?  

Well, I think, uh,  Genelec as a company, and because of what you, what you already said, the, the Technology from the beginning was the starting point for everything.

It has been a very heavily R& D driven company and because of that we have done in many areas we have done inside the company we have been developing different areas including the driver technology but at the same time we have been also using drivers from from different suppliers but in cooperation during the R& D 

How, um uh our Uh, working together and, uh, for those, I would say that for some product models that were more like closer to standard area, we have been also using external drivers, but for those key areas like, for example, if you look at, uh, middle frequency in that area, we have been doing our drivers from the beginning, from S30 up to now that we have, we have done everything inside the house. 

And also with some key products, flagship products like the ones, we do everything inside the house.  Uh, that has been a kind of strategic choice that we have done. It's not actually limited to drivers. Maybe drivers have a very special position in, uh, a lot of this because manufacturing and also in our industry.

But, uh, For example, we do our component placements for the PCB board, for the circuit board. We do everything from beginning in our own factory in, uh, East Army Finland. That is also very, very special. There are not many actually who do that, if any, nowadays. Uh, same thing is with the whole production R& D in different areas in the software, in embedded software.

The algorithm, especially if you look at what we have recently have been publishing, for example, in digital signal processing we have done  from day one, we have done everything in house.  This is one of the key, uh, reasons and I think it has been very,  very critical for leading the technology, for bringing new products,  leading the innovation.

And I think that that's one of the deepest area, uh, what Genelec has, uh, that has required at the same time, has required to invest a lot in R& D and that is the reason that if you compare what is in the industry otherwise, we are a very, very R& D driven company. Because everything that we do, when you go vertically, so deeply.

Then you have to make sure that you have deep knowledge of what you do and you have people who are skillful, who have  deep knowledge of what, uh, what they're looking for.  

That's right, and a speaker, of course, is a system comprised of different components, and if you're able to do that, you have that oversight of every aspect of the design, which is quite unique, I 

guess.

Exactly. And that is also a very good point because if you look at the way that nowadays you can differentiate from the competition, it's not only about, you know, doing a single thing here and there. So it's about optimizing the whole system because we are living in a kind of established industry. There is nothing like somebody can come out with a magical thing, magical solution that, okay.

This is a breakthrough solution that now we have. There is no many disruptive technology out there because is it has been developing for, you know, more than 100 years. If you if you look at the history of  the driver technology and then for at least 50 years, if you look at the loudest speaker technology, especially in the active technology side, so nobody can do.

Right away, kind of breakthrough without having very deep and persistent, uh, development work and, and research work.  

Absolutely. And whereas some loudspeaker companies are associated with one particular technology such as, say, ribbon tweeters or transmission lines, Genelec have actually explored all sorts of different technologies over the years. 

I think that is connected to what we discuss, is, uh, you know, the bandwidth that we have is, is its own, uh, own class because, We have been doing R& D work for so long time, and we have expanded those core areas to new, new technology areas, like what I said, related to DSP. We are probably one of the, the only company who have been working in DSP since 95. 

It's really long time for a company like us to spend so much resource and investment in the in certain technology just to create something, something new. But then when you look at long  term development, then you can see also what is the benefit out there because there are things that you can do. We can, for example, nowadays we can do with DSP technology that nobody else can do that.

Not because we are smarter. There's a lot of, you know, work also outside general, but the question is  where to focus. There are still things like, you know, certain type of driver or limited technology for certain area, but I think we are getting to a situation that more and more this kind of system solution, it matters a lot. 

There's something else interesting there that I've found, that not being married to one specific technology, or one specific ideal often brings me to the point that we're trying to focus on the customer's needs and trying to solve that problem with one type of technology. It's very, very difficult. So when I'm talking about system wide approaches, we're kind of looking at different types of driver technology, whether we use subwoofers or not, we're trying to expand the solution based on the customer's needs rather than trying to shoehorn a particular technology into every situation.

I think that's one area where we are quite unique. Where you look through the, through the history, looking at.  S30 with ribbon tweeters, right up to the present day, looking at the makeup of the wands, um, with, with a coaxial design that's, that is incredibly relevant for the way that people are working now, and then you kind of factor in the, the accompanying technologies such as SAM, GLM.

The kind of the ability to optimize for the situation that you're in. All of those complementary technologies are really geared for trying to solve the problems that customers are facing day in day out. And I think that's one of the aspects of, yes we're an R& D led company, but I think we're a customer led company first and foremost.

And our R& D department are very sensitive to the way that people are working and a lot of those changes in technology have been a reaction or having our finger on the pulse, if you like, of how people are working. Um, and that leads to different technologies being employed for different 

situations.  I'm interested in this question of coaxial drivers because that's a relatively new development for Genelec.

What problem does that allow you to address that you couldn't do previously?  

Well, kind of going back to our 82 60 product, which, which featured the, uh, the MDC, the mini minimum diffraction coaxial driver, which houses a, a tweeter and, and a mid range driver in the same space, if you like, on the same plane.

What we found with that product was that you had a, an incredibly solid. Stereo image. Um, the presentation of the tweeter in the midrange was incredibly consistent, um, and it measured very well when you put it in a, in a real room. The, the, the response of the tweeter in the midrange really translated and it worked incredibly well.

Moving on to the ones that development took a step further where we were able to increase the size of the, the wave guide. So kind of coupling that, that directivity control with the coaxial meant that you had a very consistent stereo image and you could work it.  at very close distances. So if you were working in a much smaller room, you were able to have directivity control and a stereo image that was on a par with some of our much larger three way systems.

So there wasn't really a minimum listening distance that you had to adhere to, so it meant that you could employ these products in very, very small, tight spaces, but they would also work as double duty in much larger spaces as well. So you had a very flexible product that you could place in a number of different environments. 

It is interesting to hear you mention the waveguide there because that's an aspect of monitor design that's often overlooked and it's one that generale have put an awful lot of research into. Um, can you explain why it's so significant and what makes the Genelec Directivity control waveguide so different? 

It's something that  kind of going back to, um, the 1000 series in the, in the early nineties, the 10 30, 10 31.  Well, you started to see a waveguide be introduced and I believe seeing MI right in saying that, that the wave guide existed even before 

that. Actually it was in the beginning of eighties, that, uh, we, we had the first wave guide. 

That was the beginning of the whole idea. I think the, the concept of waveguide, there are two questions. One is that whether we should have it or not, and uh, that is a choice. You know, many manufacturers, they make. In general, like it has been always important after, you know, a couple of products that we had S 30 T in S 30, we don't have that, uh, wave guide with the concept that later we have had, but especially in eighties, those first products that we start developing, the Wave guide, the whole idea was to how to minimize the negative impact of the room and how to. 

make possible to control the wave, the radiation to the listening point.  That was the whole idea and together with then, DIP, dip switches and how to adjust the acoustical side. This has been Um, the very essential part of Genelec design DNA from, from the beginning. So, the whole concept was to minimize the, the room impacts to the listening experience.

But, what makes Genelec waveguide so special is, uh, again, I think this is a kind of tradition that it has, uh, essential connection to the fact that how If you look at in the audio quality, what is critical is to keep the quality consistence from one model to another model that people, they can trust it.

And that has been a very special part of the waveguide design that we have been working on. From, you know, all products, different model,  uh, models across the product, uh, series that we, we offer. And then we came to a point that, okay, now we wanted to get closer to the point source. And that was where we started looking at coaxial.

We, we actually had a history with the coaxial in 90s. Um, and  when first time I discussed with Yilbo when we started considering that,  I was asking if we have done any, anything related coaxial before. He said that we have prototype from 90s.  And when we look at that... There have been a big research work related to how to optimize the coaxial design, because coaxial drivers, they have been there for at least 70 years, 80 years.

And some companies, they have done a lot of work in that area, but applying that to professional monitoring, the quality, the requirements that we had  were very tough, and we didn't find anything available. But so...  We started looking at how we could improve the design of coaxial that could fit to the quality level that we were looking for. 

Getting closer to the point source to, uh, eliminate those drawbacks from, for example, having, having drivers in, in a kind of, in different positions. Uh, there, there are certain limitations there that we wanted to, to overcome. And then we started, uh, working. On coaxial with the, with the kind of new approach to integrate that to directivity at the same time that, uh, we design a coaxial that there is no any gap between the Twitter and the, the mid range, and that was also very, very essential.

Step two to go forward. So, also there, we don't, we don't talk about only a certain driver technology, but it is combined with the whole acoustical system.  

It's an element, when you look at the key technologies, when you see our key technologies that we employ in different products, and you see them laid out.

And it's all of these incremental changes that then add up to the real in room performance, which is, which is interesting. So kind of not only the waveguide controlling the directivity, but the shape of the cabinet ensuring that you've, that you're kind of reducing the amount of, um, hotspots on the corners, if you like, the kind of the minimum diffraction enclosures.

So it's all of these kind of incremental improvements that have been added over the years that kind of culminate in this. This kind of progression in terms of the way that we can control, um, the way that the audio is delivered in the room. And it's something that I think is a core pillar of what we do, that we're very mindful of how our products exist and work in the real world.

It's all well and good having something that measures fantastically in control conditions, but how can it adapt to the environment that it's eventually put in? And not only how does it adapt, but how do we make it straightforward for the customer to get the best out of the system, and not just kind of leave them hanging, if you like, saying, oh, sorry, your room doesn't quite work, so you're going to have a compromised experience.

We want to. Be very realistic about the environments that these products are going into and we try and give people the  means to be able to get back to a reference. Um, I think that's really, really important. Being able to establish a reference first and foremost in the design and the measurement of the loudspeaker.

But also to be able to give people the tools to get back to that reference when it's 

in 

the real world.  It's interesting to hear you both talk about consistency there and about stability and continuity of design because I think one very common perception in the world at large is that Genelec loudspeakers have what some people would call a family sound.

Is that a perception that you encounter a lot and how do you interpret 

it?  That is exactly what you, what you said about it. We talk about precision in, in quality of those tools that people they can trust. And it has to be consistent when people they start, you know, looking at different products because anyway, depending on what kind of application, what kind of environment they have,  they may use different models for their work and they have to be able to trust.

And the only way to make that kind of foundation is to make sure that the quality that  we offer is consistent.  That also plays 

into the, the need for scalability  in our systems and especially when we're looking at immersive systems that may have to scale, um, and, and, and having this consistent, consistency across different monitors means that we can mix and match to an extent of, of kind of having something larger in, in the front for the LCR to cater for, for a certain listening distance, but then if we're in a position in a room where we're, we're very close to our side speakers or our rears, Then we can specify something smaller that will perform in a in a in a very, very similar respect to the rest of the system.

So it means that if you're a post production facility university, these systems could start out as a 51 as a 71, but they then can scale. So it's so there's a  There's a level of sustainability in the design of having a family sound that works time and time again. Um, that people will start off with a stereo system.

They might then expand that to a 5. 1 system. And now we're seeing customers expand that out into Dolby Atmos systems or Auro 3D or other more experimental systems.  

And we talked a little earlier about the role of digital signal processing in Genelec monitoring and that has a pretty fundamental role to play in this aspect of things as well, doesn't 

it?

It does. One of my main areas of work is going out to calibrate systems.  Traditionally going out to, to calibrate a system with, with, with kind of analog tools, with, with, with dip switches, was, was, worked very well for stereo systems. Um, but when you started to get up into the larger 5. and now immersive systems, you really need that extra level of precision to be able to time align the system, to be able to have a sense of, of, of consistency from monitor to monitor.

So if we're talking about panning through a, an array of seven monitors, having that consistency all the way through that 360 pan is absolutely crucial to be, to be able to buy the sensation of immersion, that you're not kind of hearing one speaker that sounds vastly different from, from, from another. So these tools aid that process and speed it up significantly,  but they also give us an incredible helping that  we're finding ourselves in now.

Rooms that aren't necessarily kind of designed for audio. They might be repurposed office space with a, with a bit of acoustic treatment. So being able to, to tailor the, um, the response of the monitor in the room and having more of these tools to, to aid that, um, it's, it's, it all kind of goes back to the aspect that the, the monitor and the room are an absolute marriage and, and you need them to, to work together to an extent. 

And I think it has been, it is a kind of evolution in the, in the technology that I think as a company our job is to Uh, bring the technology closer to users. What is possible to do with technology. And then there are customers or users who then choose that. What is what's the benefit of having that? And I think it has been one of the key advantage that we have had from the beginning.

It has been so that the interaction that we have had Uh, with demanding customers users. And I think that has been a very essential part of why we are we are here. And if you look at from that side, then basically. We have been following. We have been looking at the DSP as a kind of complimentary thing, which is actually a kind of continuation of what we have been doing.

So  our focus is to create a design that can reproduce the sound. As neutral as possible and then stay consistent in that and, uh, with  DSP, we take, you know, another step forward. So we are not, we are not compensating anything related to the basic design, the electro acoustical mechanical design, but we continue from there.

So it's, it's not about, uh, doing anything, making compromises in the, in the design foundation and then use DSP to manipulate that. But it's yet another tool to go forward.  And that's the reason that if you, if you look at the DSP, what we do with DSP is focusing is in what Andy explained, that we use that to minimize the negative impact of the room. 

And that is also connected to, you know, the core philosophy of the company, as we have had deep switches from the first product, from, you know, S30. So, so it's about, the target is same, but we use, we benefit from new technology and, and the development that has been happening in that area.  

So it's not so much about correcting anomalies in the loudspeaker as about integrating the loudspeaker into its environment.

Yes, exactly, exactly. 

Headphone listening has become a major growth area in both consumer music consumption and in studio monitoring.  Have you thought about moving into that market?  

Well, I think that's an interesting question. It's also, if you look at what has been happening in terms of audio  production, especially in the professional side, and what we have seen also recently,  the impact of... 

COVID 19 that it has, you know, it has been accelerating the whole development that, uh, more and more people who use headphones or small set up at their home and, uh, and so on. Uh, is very interesting question. We have not been doing that. We have not been having headphone product, but is basically because of, you know, principally there is a there's a big question to to deal with that.

And the question is the experience that you get from the headphone. It has been always so that  you start feeling that Uh, you know, you don't have  this kind of story. Imagine you don't have localization  as accurate that you should have in what you do when you are when you're working on audio monitoring. 

We have been. working on the headphone side, but not in the physical headphone. We, we published Aural ID, which is basically a service for HRTF to actually improve the, uh, listening quality or listening quality or audio and headphone when you use headphone as a tool. And that Uh, is connected to localization  that you start feeling that, uh, you are listening to, uh, at least the audio is externalized.

And that is the first thing to, to deal with when you, when you start using headphone as a, as a kind of audio monitoring tool. So we have been active in that area. Actually we are, we have been in the front line of that, that area. But we have not been manufacturing headphone.  

I think this is an interesting area because for those of our listeners who haven't seen it, Aural ID, the basic idea of Aural ID is that you take a video of your ear and upload it to a server and an HRTF or head related transfer function is calculated and then you can download that and load it up into your monitoring software and it will adapt the sound that's coming out of your headphones for your personal hearing system.

Can you explain a little bit more about the benefits of that?  

Well, the basic benefit is to be able to trust that you localize the sound in the right ways. If you, if you look at, as I said, the main drawback of a headphone is that you feel that the sound is coming from inside your head. And that is not as such is not suitable for professional work that you do in some phases.

The people they use that, but not in phases where they start replacing, for example, monitoring loudspeakers. by having headphones if they don't have to do that. But that is the first thing that we can do. But the ultimate question is how to come up with a solution that could actually, uh, create the same kind of experience that people, they, they could have at the time that they're working with their monitoring  setup.

And mimicking that is not an easy task. But anyway, oral ID, it gives one step toward that direction.  And, because there are also, if you, if you look at what are those factors that have impacts to the listening experience that people, they have. Loudspeaker is the starting point, but the space, the room.

Where you live, when you play the Lord Speaker, that has a big impact to, to what kind of experience people they have, and what kind of judgment, what kind of decision they make in their work. But, uh, what we have been now focusing on is to, to actually make possible to do that. Uh, with headphones in the future.

We are not there. We are far away from there. But the technology that currently we offer is one big step toward that direction, and that could be actually used for whatever headphone that people they have out there. There are so many headphones,  and I think that's that's probably one of the most interesting areas for if you look at some years from now.

Yeah. That would be very, very interesting area and is, uh, is also connected to the immersive because I think immersive is one, uh, very, very important trend in audio industry and is going to be very important in the near future. And question is how immersive could be produced, could be consumed. And, uh, there are many companies who have been starting looking at, uh, the area that we are talking about, uh, R, RLID and HRTF area and I, uh, I think everybody has realized that how important it's going to be in the future. 

That's 

an interesting example of how far reaching and wide ranging the research is that goes on at Genelec. Um, I'm just wondering, are you able to give us any insight into what other topics you're, a current focus of research at the company?  

Well, it is, uh, very interesting to see that, uh, if you look at the development in the technology, not only in the audio, because, you know, the, the, when you look at different technology development path, is always the, the certain thing that they come from your own industry, own community, but they are also, and so.

Areas that they come from outside your, your industry, I think DSP, digital signal processing is one of those areas that, you know, is not limited to, to audio industry. It is, uh, actually is the significant development has been happening outside that, but it has been utilized and applied then. To, uh, to the audio technology, audio industry, and I think that's going to to continue.

That's, uh, whatever we will see in the future, at least for next 5 to 10 years, I think is essentially it will be connected to DSP and digital technology anyway, and that is what we have been also doing a lot of work, and we will continue work on that area.  

Fascinating.  I have one last question, which is. 

We don't often talk about sustainability in relation to studio equipment, but it is becoming an increasingly important consideration, and it's one that's actually quite high up Genelec's agenda. Can you give us some examples of how you're ensuring that your business is as green as possible? 

Oh, a wonderful question.

Thank you very much. I think it's, uh, this is a question that is relevant to everyone. Whether we are in the manufacturer's side or the user's side, as a human being, I think that's, that's one of the biggest issues that we are, uh, we are going to have. Uh,  first, I would like to emphasize that there is no manufacturer who can claim that whatever they do is, uh, in line with the sustainability or, or, Uh, because I think that, uh, whatever you do, there is, there's a footprint for that. 

So question is how to minimize the negative impact of, uh, what you do to the nature.  And I think Genelec has a very, very long and very deep tradition in that, uh, because, uh, again. From the beginning what customers they were asking. Their requirements were tough, like things like, uh, making products that are reliable and they last for a long time.

I think that was a brilliant demand from our customers and we are very thankful for that. So we have realized that from the beginning. Then we come to certain areas that in terms of operation, what you could do to minimize the footprint of your operation. Also, what kind of material you use, and that is then connected to one very essential part of what we have been doing.

Uh, using recycled aluminum. I think that's that's a big thing. And I think the whole heritage is so much connected to the founders of the companies and the the values they have had that it has been, you know, it has been look at as a very natural part of what they do. And of course, we are very happy that  it has become more and more relevant.

And  we just have to continue. I think we have  We have a lot to do in that area, and  not only us, but everyone else as well. But we have a very, very good starting point. And that's also connected to why we do so much in house, because we have a very, very good visibility. We have, uh, we have competencies. We have skills.

We have deep knowledge on what kind of choices we can make from the components up to, up to the end product. There, there are also certain areas that, uh, we, we have been looking at in, in addition to matter type of material, the recycled aluminum that we have been using. About 10 years ago, we also published this composite,  uh, enclosure, uh, that was also very, very interesting, uh, interesting thing that, that we, we did.

The very delightful, uh, sign that we have been witnessing. 

And more and more people they are aware of that they're getting, you know, it becomes important for for them when they make their choices. And I think because of exactly because of that, we have every manufacturer, including us. We have a very big responsibility to communicate that when you when you ask about, you know, the future development, I would say that sustainability definitely will be.

Uh, one area that we will keep developing, uh, whatever we can do, but it, uh, it required also very sophisticated production line. We raise the temperature during the production up to 170 and then suddenly coming down to make the finishing without any painting. So that was, uh, that was actually very, very fascinating work.

But it was very sad to, to see the reaction from, from some people in the professional audio that they were saying that sustainability is not a big thing for professional audio,  but it is at the same time, it is fascinating how. how quickly it has changed. You know, 10 years is not a long time. And now you can see more and more even in, in production facilities that they're talking about, even in some studios that they're talking about.

In BBC a few years ago, they did a big research related to this subject. And I'm, I'm 100 percent sure that there are more and more people there who are realizing that we're coming to, to that area. And that is, that's a very good thing for us, of course.  Yes, and 

of course if you look back now at the studio equipment of the 70s, a lot of that is still usable today, whereas the equipment that was made only 10 years ago is now unusable and unrepairable.

Exactly, and actually that is, that is also very interesting because as... As you said, in the, in the music industry, if you look at those, uh, you know, instruments, some of those instruments, they're very, very old, but they're much more expensive. Like I, I play saxophone and I have product that is from, you know, 35 years ago,  35 years ago.

And, you know, I, I enjoy from that. I don't want to have a new one is, uh, actually it has even more value. That's very popular in the instrument side, and I think that's a very nice heritage to, to also benefit from when we talk about sustainability, because I think we are in a cycle in our society that a few years ago, you know, we discussed a lot that whenever you go to the show, you have to show something new.

It, it becomes actually artificial that, you know, they put, you know, new, new, new, but when you look at that in more deeper level, then you don't see anything new, and there's a kind of illusion of newness, and, and that's something I think is part of the behavior that we have learned, and we have to somehow unlearn that. 

Another aspect of this is what people are calling the right to repair. 

Exactly, exactly. That is one area that we have been looking at a lot and that is advantage that we have that I have said that I don't want to see that day that there is a there is a generic product that the person wants to repair and we say that we cannot. 

And even, you know, S30s, we have still, we have been offering services for that product is not, is not part of the package that we offer, but anyway, we don't leave that either. And, uh, I think that is one of the most important area and interesting area to, to deal with in the future, that how far we can go, uh, in terms of offering a spare part, the services.

And, uh, I would say that the ideal situation would be that this is my dream, that, uh, we  get to a point that we can promise or we can take the responsibility that whatever products go out from our factory, at some  point, decades after that, they have been used and used,  if there is no other way to deal with, then we can take back. 

I think creating this kind of closed loop would be one of the most interesting things in terms of sustainability in the future.  

Clearly this is something that you at Genelec have thought about very deeply. Yeah, 

I think it's, uh, if you look at different areas that you want to develop, I think whatever you do, it is somehow, it is connected to sustainability. 

I think also business wise, it makes sense. And that was the reason that in 2008,  okay, we have been doing things for a long time from the beginning, but 2008, we raised that as a part of, you know, the company strategy that sustainability is as important as profitability and sound quality. And I think that's a very way, a very nice way of, you know,  saying that. 

Well, it sounds as though Genelec are going to keep developing in all sorts of areas and continuing to grow. And um, thank you for that fascinating conversation. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you both. Um, thank you very much for your time, uh, C. McNaghan and Andy Bensley. 

Thank you. Thank you very much, Sam.

Thank you very much for excellent questions that you had. And I'm, I'm really happy that you have so good insight to the subject. Thank you very much. Thank 

you, Sam. Thanks for having 

us. It's a pleasure.  

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