[00:00:00] Rebecca: there's gonna be a new team forming, that's gonna expand from marketing ops and MarTech. imagine this new dispatch layer, that's thinking about the systems, the data, the ai, the architecture. And campaign activation for the entire marketing org holistically. We think there are going to be pods around objectives that are then working functionally with this dispatch layer. you have one pod that's all about. [00:00:24] Repeat selling and next best purchase That's that whole pods mission. they work alongside with this dispatch layer to actually send campaigns, [00:00:31] Phil: Lifecycle folks are already working in very much blurred silos of product, product, marketing, ops, data. lifecycle folks are kind of prime to thrive here. [00:00:41] Rebecca: an agentic world where so many agents are supporting the marketing function, doing different roles, that's gonna be the special sauce it's having that empathy. I'm gonna bet that agents will never have empathy like a human can. [00:00:53] ​ [00:01:20] In This Episode --- [00:01:20] Phil: What's up everyone? Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Rebecca Corless, VP of Marketing at Growth Loop. Rebecca's the former VP of marketing at Verge Sense and Owl Labs, and she spent eight years at HubSpot, starting as one of the first 50 employees and growing into a director of marketing role. [00:01:35] In this episode, we explore the future agentic marketing org and the rise of the marketing dispatch layer. Rebecca makes the case why channel specialists are fading, but lifecycle marketers are thriving, and we explore the future of marketing where budgets are shifting to compute. AI agents are coordinating decisions across departments and machine customers are emerging. [00:01:56] All that and a bunch more stuff after a super quick word from one of our [00:02:00] awesome partners. [00:02:00] ​ [00:02:57] Phil: Rebecca, thank you so much for your time today. Really excited [00:03:00] to chat. [00:03:01] Rebecca: Well, I have been looking forward to this since our webinar we did a couple months ago where I got to host you as a presenter, [00:03:09] Phil: Mm-hmm. [00:03:09] Rebecca: I did an okay job because the tables have turned. I'm ready. Be good. [00:03:14] Phil: You were awesome. It was a super fun conversation. we got to chat with Chris. Um. Probably a couple months ago now by the time this this comes out. And the topic that we kind of bounced around for you, Rebecca, is like exploring what the future of marketing orgs looks like in a couple of years when we all run on AI agents. [00:03:33] But you also wanted to kind of build a case for why lifecycle marketers might be best positioned to thrive in this future. So excited to chat with you about this. Thanks for, uh, yeah. Thanks for joining us. [00:03:43] Rebecca: Yeah, I'll. [00:03:44] Darrell: Let's jump right in. So, um, [00:03:46] 1. The Future Agentic Marketing Org --- [00:03:46] Darrell: this whole ag agentic marketing org. Um, so if you look into the future, Rebecca, what does it kind of look like, do you think? Um, obviously, you know, today we're starting to see. Org charts of full of AI agents, you know, uh, the, how credible is that or how viable is that? I don't know, but, but I do know that we are definitely looking at probably leaner teams in the future and agents helping out a lot. So maybe you could riff a little bit on what you think the future's gonna look like a few years, maybe even five years down the road. Um, um, what are the makeup of those teams and how's it gonna be different than today? [00:04:26] Rebecca: Yeah, you got it. So first, the point of view I like to bring into this, we love talking about agents, and I think we need to start talking about how organizations will shift to actually make sure we can leverage agents to the degree we need. Right. And the organization is going to look a bit different. [00:04:44] And, uh, there's a few casting characters that I think are gonna be really key. So when I think of the marketing org of the future, and I don't, I think it's not very distant future, I think 2026, we'll start seeing some, some organizations that are already starting to look like this or testing this framework. [00:04:58] I see three layers. [00:05:00] So put yourself in context of maybe a large enterprise company. Maybe it's 500 million revenue up, something like that. It's a lar, a larger org. First you'll have your, your marketing leadership. That's, that's typical. That's what we've seen. Um. What might be different? The new partners in crime to the CMO, this, the CMO of this org is going to be really fluent and know how to work with the data organization. [00:05:22] Maybe that CMO has a data leader on his or her team, but in the very least there this person is working with the data officer at a degree that maybe he or she hasn't before. And this is gonna be really key. And I don't think a place that a lot of CMOs have flexed CMOs have really flexed there. [00:05:39] Analytics chops recently, as they're thinking about ROI now, it's, now it's the chance to flex their technical chops and their, their data systems and architecture chops. That's gonna be really key. So that's the, the marketing, um, leadership level. I also think there's going to be another counterpart, um, which is an AI strategy, um, uh, individual who's gonna be thinking about how AI is [00:06:00] leveraged across the organization. [00:06:01] So that's, that's one. Next one. I think there's gonna be a new team forming, um, a new, uh, part of this organization that's gonna expand from marketing ops and MarTech. Um, growth loop is affectionately calling it, uh, the dispatch team. I don't know what we'll call it. We're calling it dispatch. We, we, we think it's gonna look like that. [00:06:21] So imagine now this new desk dispatch layer, that is the group that's thinking about the systems, the data, the ai, the architecture. And campaign activation for the entire marketing marketing org holistically. It's really interesting. You think about it, and the reason why we call it dispatch affectionately is because we think this group is going to be accountable for how all marketing communications will go out in a way that's really effective for all of the marketing objectives that are being fulfilled. [00:06:52] So there's that. The next group. And the reason why I thought of this at an enterprise level, 'cause I think this will be absolutely, um, applicable. [00:07:00] We think there are going to be business units or bus or pods, pods around objectives that are then working functionally with this dispatch layer. And this is what I think is gonna be really exciting because you can imagine, um, maybe you are in, uh, maybe you're a retail organization and you have one pod that's all about. [00:07:17] Repeat selling and next best purchase and things like that. That's that whole pods mission. This is gonna be the group that's going to be the creative. They're gonna think about the customer journey, they're gonna think about. How to present products in a really effective way. Um, the full, the full customer journey there. [00:07:34] And then they work alongside with this dispatch layer to actually send campaigns, ai automated campaigns, uh, at scale to, to achieve it. And then you might, if you're depending on the size of your, have actually multiple pods that are all working with that dispatch layer. So that's what we see and we think the real. [00:07:51] The real shift is gonna be in that dispatch layer, and there's gonna be a lot of investment in that in order to make it successful for the full group. [00:07:59] 1.2 The Rise of the Marketing Dispatch Layer --- [00:07:59] Phil: Yeah, walk [00:08:00] us through the, the dispatch layer. Like who makes up that team? Is it a layer that's. Cross-functional a little bit like you've got data privacy people in there, data strategy, data engineers, but also some of the marketing ops folks, MarTech folks might migrate and kind of be the translation layer there. [00:08:16] Walk [00:08:17] Rebecca: Yeah. I wonder if some of the folks that historically have been in a data org outside of marketing might come on over. Uh, I think that could be really, really powerful. I mean, think about it. We think of, of data investment. If you have AI powered marketing at this, at this level with agents doing that, the, the, the data cloud, uh, usage and the compute usage is gonna be really high. [00:08:38] You want some real experts over there. So that's, that's really important. So there's likely someone who's thinking about security. There's likely someone thinking about, uh, I don't know what we'll call the role, but the traffic cop, we'll go with traffic cop who is thinking about, like, I'll give you example in this pod world, I bet we'll need to be really sophisticated around [00:09:00] what campaign. [00:09:02] Is each customer receiving which business unit is serving this particular customer? And when this customer could actually effectively, uh, be a part of any business unit's campaign, who decides that? I think that's gonna exist at the dispatch layer based off of what serves this customer best. Uh, this customer should actually be part of this campaign and this outcome. [00:09:24] So interesting to think about. Um. Others privacy. I think there's gonna be, uh, the data individual is gonna be really crucial, likely multiple. I think some of the coordination that's gonna happen between the pods and the dispatch layer is going to be, okay, what goals are you looking to achieve? That's clear. [00:09:41] What data do you need to achieve that goal? What do you not know about your customer now? And how can we invest in getting that understanding in order to serve the customer best and, uh, serve your campaign your outcome best? So that's gonna be an important role too. [00:09:56] Phil: Is that all made up of humans or is part of the dispatch layer? [00:10:00] Agents also. [00:10:01] Rebecca: I am thinking, believe it or not, as I've described all of this, I've been thinking of it from a human mindset, the humans that are orchestrating all of this. I believe that a lot of the tasks and enablement will be agent led and agent driven. And the role I see in this conversation right now are how are the humans going to organize in order to make this future possible? [00:10:25] Because that's a lot of what's in the marketing team's control right now, and marketing leadership's control. It's the leveling up we're doing as teams, as people to make this agentic future possible, effective, and driving the outcomes we want. [00:10:41] Phil: Super cool. What advice do you have for folks that are listening to you right now that are just like, I want to work in that dispatch layer? I think it's a AI resistant or like a, a good way to feature proof my job in the next like five years or so, maybe they're sitting in marketing ops today and they're listening to you saying. [00:10:59] I kind [00:11:00] of already do this in, in my job in a way, or I, I, like, I would love to raise my hand up and, and be part of that. What advice do you have for those folks to like get that seed off the ground in, in their own companies? [00:11:11] Rebecca: Yeah, I have two recommendations. One I'll say is the generalized discontinue to be AI curious. There's so much we don't know yet, so much we don't know tools that are being built that aren't good enough yet that need to be better. Like there, there's a lot of movement that's happening. Care. So that's one side. [00:11:27] Um, the other side is going to be understand data, data architecture, um, the data cloud, all of that, which isn't, is something that, I won't say all, but a lot of marketing ops group will delegate and just say, oh, that's the data teams over there. Responsibility. I just connect to it. Don't just connect to it. [00:11:46] Understand it. Get that same judgment because I hope and expect that judgment to live in the marketing org as well. I hope the CMO gets that judgment as well. I'll give an example of a easy [00:12:00] issue that could come up, um, or maybe a shortcoming that needs to be thought of. I'm, as you're investing in marketing technology. [00:12:08] Are you doing it in a way where data is siloed and thus AI is siloed? Or are you doing it in a way that data is, is combined and thus AI is holistic? That is key, and that is something that is not universally understand by CMOs and I would say not universally understand by marketing ops and marketing tech. [00:12:26] Um, we love our tools. Now we need to think in infrastructure. [00:12:32] Darrell: I love it. I love it. I, one thing though that I'd love to get your take on too, 'cause I've been thinking about it in, in five years though, what would you say to the people that are gonna say. Most of the org structure is gonna be AI agents talking to each other, you know? Is there, does, does, is there still room, like, is the dish patch layer gonna be like one person, you know, or do you feel like this whole network of AI [00:13:00] agents is not really viable and like, that's not, that's not realistic. [00:13:04] Rebecca: Yeah, I'm very focused on the human judgment. I think that's the unknown, like as AI and agents get more. Intelligent and can work more autonomously. What new human judgment will be layered on top that will be necessary? That that's the open question we have. I, of the information I have today, my belief is that human judgment will always be crucial. [00:13:26] I also think about in the dispatch layer, the collaboration that's going to be necessary across these, these pods in the dispatch layer and thinking about. Again, bringing judgment to how, how are these pods serve best and how do we meet these objectives? So I think that's key. I bet also by seeing as things evolve as something no longer needs, I will say as much human judgment, likely is the right point in which it can become led by agentic technology or an agent. [00:13:55] So I believe that as a principle, I also believe as [00:14:00] data gets better, it will then allow agents to take those roles and be more autonomous. So. For example, I'll, I'll that example I gave before that traffic cop, maybe that traffic cop could be an agent. That makes sense. Um, or is that too high stakes of a decision that you wouldn't want to make autonomous by an agent? [00:14:19] I don't know. Um, maybe it depends on, again, the data that we have and the frequency in which it's getting it right. The agent in this case getting it right to then earn the right to say. You are now doing this autonomously and aren't necessarily being overseen by human consistently, or you're ready to replace a human acting in that function. [00:14:42] Phil: Super cool. Love, love your thoughts there, Rebecca. The, the dispatch layer is, is really interesting. [00:14:47] 2. Lifecycle Marketers Belong at the Center of Every Agentic Org --- [00:14:47] Phil: I'm curious to ask you. Where the lifecycle marketer kinda lives in, in the, the future role of, of the lifecycle merger potentially in this dispatch layer. So, um, these, these folks are super close to my heart. [00:14:59] I've [00:15:00] worn this hat and been in those shoes many times in my career. I think there's a ton of overlap with marketing ops pros, but still kind of focused on a different part of the funnel, if you will, or, or different use cases. Um, the role of the Lifecycle Pro to me has never been about the person pressing send on emails or doing just the execution of campaigns. [00:15:21] Like, their strength to me has always been being this like empathy barometer for customers. Everything we do in lifecycle is to, um. Deeply understand like the val, what value looks like for ideal customer profiles and the future org that you're kind of painting here with this dispatch layer it, it's gonna have a ton of blurring of the collaboration lines. [00:15:43] Like you said, I think Lifecycle folks are already working in very much blurred silos of product, product, marketing, ops, data. And they also jump between different channels like email, push, on site, direct mail, and they're not just focused on like [00:16:00] activation and acquisition and retention. They're focused on all of those things. [00:16:03] The full funnel journey. So this idea of like aligning agents to specific parts of that engine, which you kind of talked about in your previous answer, it feels super important and lifecycle folks are kind of prime to thrive here. I'm curious if you agree and why do you have Lifecycle folks as kind of like on your list of potentially being one of the most important roles in the future of the AG Agentic marketing work? [00:16:27] Rebecca: Yeah. Uh, I completely agree. I also love lifecycle marketers. I love that function. I love that is such a featured role right now in our, in our, um, era of marketing. And it's for all the reasons that you just stated. I mean, think about just in general, what makes a great marketer a great marketer is customer obsessed. [00:16:48] Understands, is empathetic. Uh, looks to be a student of the customer journey and. Thinks customer first. I mean, that is, that is key for lifecycle marketers. [00:17:00] Any, any marketer who does that is gonna be set up for success. So that's, that's key here. And then when I think of in a, an agentic world where so many agents are supporting the marketing function, doing different roles, that's gonna be the special sauce that the human marketer contributes, I believe with that's gonna be the special sauce. [00:17:19] Um, it's, it's having that empathy. I'll be, I'm waiting to see agents have empathy, but I'm gonna bet that agents will never have empathy like a human can. I, that is a human quality we should be really proud of. And so with that, I think lifecycle marketers in this new org will go two different ways. I think, uh, and it depends, I would say on, call it technical prowess and passion, if you will. [00:17:41] Some, the, the technical ones, the data-centric ones very well could go to the dispatch layer and they might be thinking with this. With this cus customer-centric mindset, uh, how do campaigns get activated in a way that support the customer? And I, I believe they will bring, if it supports the [00:18:00] customer, it'll support the business objectives, like in that sequence that that is the way everyone wins. [00:18:05] So I believe that. I think the other direction is lifecycle marketers. Uh, taking on new roles within these, in these pods, in these business units, they're the ones thinking about what is the full customer journey that we wanna create. I believe it's the lifecycle marketer with an AI mindset that's gonna make one-to-one marketing possible. [00:18:22] This is the one that's gonna think about what is the ultimate experience I can create for each individual who's receiving marketing these campaigns and how can I, it's systems thinking, how can I decide and use the technology I have to? Create these campaigns that are at a one-to-one scale and still done in a way that feels authentic to the person. [00:18:43] Oh my goodness, that will be amazing. I think it's gonna come from the lifecycle marketer who really is AI curious to bring us there, and then obviously the continued evolution of technology to make it come to life. [00:18:57] Darrell: Yeah, I, I, I completely agree. And [00:19:00] what I've always loved about Lifecycle is this idea of like, there's these different stages that customers go through in their, their relationship with your business life. Uh, lifecycle marketers laser focused on delivering value at each stage and trying to get them to the next level. do you do that? That is through personalization. That is through the right message, the right, right, you know, context, the right person, the right time, the right offer. And it for me, like it doesn't matter what the technology of the day is, the lifecycle marketer is the one trying to figure out how to deliver that value. [00:19:34] I think that that, so that, that's why they're really well positioned too. I really agree with that. I also think too, life's lifecycle marketers. Can, you know, you can, you can start to play with where do AI agents fit in? And I was just thinking that it could really depend on the level of empathy and human judgment that you need at each touch point. You know, because sometimes, you know, you know, [00:20:00] there, there's pretty straightforward things, you know, like customer signed up, they need instructions on how to onboard, you know, the customer is mad, they need a refund. Like those are very like black and white. You know, but there are certain things where like, you know, customer, customers might be in an extenuating circumstance, it might be a people problem, it might be, you know, uh, some, some sort of, of time where there's a perfect opportunity to build a really great relationship with the brand. This is where a human is needed, you know? So I just kind of, um, that resonate with you at all? [00:20:31] Rebecca: Yeah. I com. I completely agree. I think about, like, think, let's take another part that we'll see soon. Uh, content creation, uh, generative AI to create content. And then in this world where we also want authenticity, talk about a challenge creating content for one-to-one through generative AI and creating authenticity. [00:20:50] It's the lifecycle marketer type individual who's thinking about, I love how you said that value at every point of the journey that I think will have the right heart. Dare I say [00:21:00] heart in a conversation about energetic technology, have the right heart to make that come to life in a way that will match the customer experience and truly benefit them. [00:21:10] So again, if the customer wins, the business wins. And that's why we should have that, that order of thinking as we build this together. [00:21:18] Phil: Yeah, we, [00:21:19] 3. Why Channel Specialists Must Shift to Journey Orchestration --- [00:21:19] Phil: we grew up in a time, Rebecca, and where like marketing specialists were all the talk. Right. And you spent eight years at HubSpot. You just said you were, uh, one of the first 50 folks at HubSpot and before your leadership role, you worked across customer marketing, advocacy, content marketing, lead generation, like you, you got a taste of all these different hats get to specialize in, in some of these different roles. [00:21:43] You've seen the marketing org wear the specialist, quote unquote ruled like people weren't like talking about the T-shaped marketer, right? Like everyone loved someone who was an expert in, in one channel or really deep in one channel. Do you think that we're already in the middle [00:22:00] of a transformation where agent systems are commoditizing channel execution and the the breadth of the Lifecycle Pro is kind of their superpower and their ability to feature proof their career? [00:22:12] Rebecca: Yes. I think there will be a handful of specialist roles that. Individuals in those specialist roles that are gonna need to do some, some soul searching and some seeking, because I think there's gonna be a lot of change because think about what is an agent, A specialist often is a specialist role very frequently. [00:22:32] And so, uh, I think, and that's a great thing, just to be clear, that's a great thing. That's, that's one of the pieces that allows agents to be autonomous and serve needs and drive the outcomes we want. So that's a great thing. Then take specialist humans, well do, will specialist humans work with specialist agents? [00:22:47] I don't know. I think there will be some of the roles, the specialist roles that I think will need to change or evolve or the folks in those roles will need to change and evolve. One is the channel specialist. Um, [00:23:00] I get really curious. I mean, think about it like let's take good old, Ooh, I'm gonna be careful. [00:23:04] I love you paid marketers. I love you, performance marketers. Uh, let's take that role. I'm wondering what it's gonna look like in this world of this, this new agentic org. Because think about it, it's not, the game is not now how to optimize LinkedIn. I'm making this up in a B2B context. LinkedIn, the game is not to optimize LinkedIn. [00:23:27] It's to say, bill is going to get communication on LinkedIn only in these circumstances. Only when he is in this cycle of his bias journey. Only when he needs this offer. Only that. So LinkedIn is like the last. Piece of the one to, I'm thinking of it as a one-to-one marketing context, a one-to-one marketing puzzle. [00:23:46] I also wonder, I mean, one of my hypotheses is, are we actually gonna start getting the best channel optimization ever when you're only using a channel? When it serves the person and when they need it. I mean, that is [00:24:00] gonna drive some of the best ROI you can see. Right. So that's really interesting too. So, so paint this picture here. [00:24:05] Okay. What the performance marketer's role now so much about optimizing campaigns and seeing impact at the campaign level. Now it's not at the campaign level, it's at the user level. So I'm doing this to be thought provoking. So I wonder now what will that person do? Will they do something different? Will they lean into a different skillset? [00:24:24] They have? Maybe, again, the, the, the strategic side of them, perhaps to think more holistically in a campaign orchestration standpoint, agnostic to the channel or tool that is seeing it through. [00:24:38] Phil: Yeah, such a good point. I, I feel like when I'm putting myself in the shoes of someone who is maybe a performance marketer, but you could put like email marketers in, in that bucket, like content marketers also, and like we hear this a lot, folks will say. You know, think deeply about your current channel specialization role and think about like, [00:25:00] what else could you be doing to be more upper level, like strategic layer. [00:25:06] 3.2 How To Actually Become More Strategic --- [00:25:06] Phil: And it's easy to say, like think less about the execution and think more about the strategy and how you can orchestrate agents versus being the tech, the tactical like executional person. I feel like part of that is easy to say, like telling someone to be less execution and be more strategy like when you tell folks to think deeply about their current channel specialist role, what does that look like to you? [00:25:31] To move a layer up and think more about strategy? Like how can people put that, like give us some practical ideas there. [00:25:39] Rebecca: Sure. Um, I'll tease, I'll tease by profession a little bit more, uh, as, and someone who has fallen fault for what I'm about to say many times. Let's give an example. If you run your campaigns and you think exclusively in numbers. How many clicks, how many conversions, how many opportunities, and that is it. [00:25:58] That is your hint. You're not [00:26:00] doing it yet. You are only thinking at the granular metric level, I would say. Okay, go deeper. Now let's think about the human. What is the experience of someone who's at that conversion point? What are they thinking, feeling, doing, needing? Uh, starting to flex, that thinking is gonna be a good first step. [00:26:18] You're getting to the human side of it versus just the, the conversion, the click. And I have been there. I've said, Ooh, I'm so proud. A hundred thousand visits, hooray. What does that mean? What is, what is the actual human experience they've had? So that, that's a big one. And then I think the other thing is, maybe it's cliche or maybe it's basics. [00:26:37] Be curious. Be really curious and be curious to understand the motivations. Pains hang out with some product marketers. They're gonna have a fantastic role in this new world. Hang out with your product marketers, the ones that are often so customer obsessed from that perspective. They know their personas well hang out with them and start blending that thinking into the world of your [00:27:00] campaign execution. [00:27:00] That's another side. And then I would say be, be AI curious. It's easy to say, be passive as we, uh, start using these new tools. Don't be passive. Say what? What tools can I use to replace what I'm doing? And push yourself. That's really crucial too. So those three areas I think will be helpful as you look to expand and grow into a more strategic mindset. [00:27:22] ​ [00:29:23] Phil: I I love that you shouted out product marketers there. Um, [00:29:27] 3.3 This Team Promoted ChatGPT to Director of Product Marketing --- [00:29:34] Phil: we're recording this in, in August, and you probably saw the post too, Rebecca, I think it was earlier this week. Where, Dave Regati, he posted that his startup was promoting an AI agent to be their director of product marketing. [00:29:44] And it got a ton of flack on LinkedIn obviously, because a bunch of people were just like, what? Like product marketers are replacing that a hundred percent with ai. And so, um, it, it, it's, it's interesting that like you're the route, and I agree with you by the way, that like product [00:30:00] marketers are really uniquely positioned in this feature of AI resistance. [00:30:03] 'cause like you said, they're so close to the customer. But then you have these companies completely replacing the function, or at least what they understand of the function with, you know, some vanilla Chad, GPT stuff. And I don't know exactly what Dave is doing there, but this whole concept of like figuring out what content should we be creating for this ICP, give me a list of needs that I put on this homepage for this ICP. [00:30:27] Like there is a ton of stuff. That the PM's role is a lot easier with ai, but I dunno if you saw that post, but curious to get your, your immediate reaction here. [00:30:37] Rebecca: I didn't see the post. I'm gonna be searching for it immediately because I'm so curious now. I am terribly skeptical. Um, and find it fascinating, but I'm terribly, I'm terribly skeptical and it's, it's through that human element. What, okay, so I'll think on the fly everybody. I'm thinking on the fly. What could a product marketing [00:31:00] agent do? [00:31:00] Obviously research, analyze, like, look and find trends at a speed in which human can. Absolutely. But I want, and I think even give some real suggestions for what this means for the business. I believe that too. In a real quick way. I hope product marketers do that. I don't know really. Then understanding how things feel. [00:31:20] I mean, think about it, like the motivation we just did at Growth Loop. We did a great workshop. We talked about our personas and we talked about the, the commercial motivations. We, we talked about the personal emotional motivations, the career motivations. Will an agent get that to a degree, again, through the empathy, because we've been there and we felt that, I don't know, and I think it's, that's the special sauce that makes the best marketing really effective, that I think really strong product marketers do well. [00:31:49] Darrell: Completely agree. I mean, there's just, um, there's always something missing. I think when you look at work that's done completely ai, you know, and you, you can't really put your finger on it. Like, I don't [00:32:00] know if you all watch some of, like the AI created videos or, um, either on like TikTok or definitely AI written articles, but you just, it just, it, it's missing something. [00:32:10] And you know, I, I do a lot of content creation, a lot of writing. And, um, it, it's like to have AI do all, all the entire article, you, you can just tell that it's just not good. But if you have it, be your thought partner and give you, give you all of these options at every step all of a sudden, you know? Um, I think, I think work becomes really, really good. [00:32:34] And, and, and we're, we're moving from. We're moving from having to do all this executional stuff to being more of like an artist curating a bunch of different things that are, that are served up on a platter for us. And it's a really, I think it's a really beautiful metaphor on how, how to use AI and human, uh, really well. Um, and, uh, yeah, it goes, it goes beyond marketing, but, um. [00:32:55] 4. What it Means to Be a Specialist in the Moment Works --- [00:32:55] Darrell: Why don't we like, uh, uh, talk a little bit about, about your, your past and, and I see here [00:33:00] too that, you know, you've had such an interesting journey. You were a marketing generalist at HubSpot, one of the first 50 employees, which is wild. I think it's, you know, I dunno how many thousands and thousands of employees now. um, you actually got some advice from Dharmesh Shaw and he said something about being a specialist in the moment. what does that mean? What did that advice mean? And, um, yeah, share, share a little bit about that story if you could. [00:33:25] Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. So first I feel so fortunate that I had HubSpot early in my career. I am, I'm the luckiest duck there is. I gotta give Mike Volpe a shout out. He's the one who gave me my shot. Thank you. Uh, such the best foundation I could ever have. So I'm, I'm very grateful. So the story, HubSpot had a really cool tradition. [00:33:44] I wonder if it's still there. I don't know. But a really cool tradition at the time called the Champion's Dinner. And just a great cultural thing. Every month there would be a champion, uh, selected from each department for some accomplishment that that person had had done. [00:34:00] And it was great. It was cross-functional across, across the whole company. [00:34:02] Sotheby, sales, customer success, engineering, et cetera, in marketing. I happened to be the marketing champion that that month, which was an honor. And there was always an executive host, and this host was Dharma Shaw. I don't even think he remembers this. It's always funny to think back to things that are so formative for you, and probably just a moment in time for them. [00:34:22] I wonder if this is one of those things for him. So we're at this dinner and it was, it was a great conversation and around the same time, uh, I was a few years in at HubSpot at this time, and HubSpot was hiring so many specialists, incredible specialists, specialists that have worked in functions at a depth that I, I had never touched in a way that I thought was amazing and I'd always pride myself as be, and I still do as a generalist. [00:34:44] Who was able to be flexible in her career, learn things quickly, go deep and, and then have an impact. I love that. But I was meeting people who had a depth and expertise that was just at a depth. I had not touched in some areas, so I thought that was interesting. So I decided to confide in Dharmesh and I [00:35:00] said, Dharmesh, well, I have longevity at this company because I'm not a specialist. [00:35:06] I mean, being a little vulnerable, I do, I need to think about this. Uh, I wanted the growth moment. Do I need to think about this? And he said, Rebecca. You're gonna be just fine because you're a specialist in the moment and that's what you're good at. And I have held onto that forever and he kind of took what I do naturally and what I appreciate in myself into almost a new mantra for me, which is, how can you learn something to depth necessary for impact and be flexible when necessary. [00:35:38] And the key thing, and I'll, I'll bring this back to the conversation before. First principle thinking to think about the problem, the customer, the empathy, the strategy, thinking about that in order to make the area in which you're specializing, which you're going deep, effective. And that's what I like to do. [00:35:52] And I have a lot of gratitude that this just happens to be true about me. And I think it's true for a lot of other people in an area other [00:36:00] can flex because when everything is changing like it is now, it's that. I am grateful to say, I think it's that type of mindset that's gonna be really foundational in setting you up to, again, move into the future and see something completely different. [00:36:17] Phil: Hearing that, Rebecca, it's super cool advice. I feel like it's like we're, we're talking about like what roles are gonna be really AI resistant, but I feel like this is a great example that it's like, it's not about the roles, it's about. The people and the traits that you have specifically. And I think being a specialist in the moment is one of the most powerful traits or or skills to, to future proof in in the next few years. [00:36:41] It was some of the, the flack that Darryl and I got from the episode that we did, just like what roles are gonna be displayed, what are the ones that are really well, super proof. And, uh, one person responded saying like, guys, it's not about the roles. Like the roles don't matter. It's about the people that recognize stuff are curious and are just like, yeah, this isn't [00:37:00] gonna have wings in a couple of years. [00:37:02] I need to spread this in a couple of different areas. And I feel like your answer like embodies that mentality. [00:37:08] Rebecca: Oh, thanks. I mean it, I mean it truly. [00:37:12] 5. How Systems Thinking Helps Lifecycle Marketers Shine in Agentic AI --- [00:37:12] Phil: Let's, let's talk about this sweet bot for lifecycle marketers, because like, it, it's really curious specifically for the lifecycle folks. Um, Darrell you just mentioned, like, you know, they're, they're focused on different funnel stages, but. What AI will continue to struggle with is reconciling competing campaign priorities between channels, waiting trade-offs between other teams and other priorities that they have waiting short-term versus long-term retention. [00:37:40] Ensuring brand is perfectly wrapped across like all the different channels. Is that where lifecycle pros kinda shine in this like agentic future that we kind of chatted about a little bit? [00:37:52] Rebecca: I think it's going to be the customer empathy and a systems thinking mindset, if you will, that's gonna set this, uh, for success. [00:38:00] I think systems thinking is gonna be really crucial. And again, I'm, I'm thinking of that utopia one-to-one marketing. I believe in one-to-one marketing, it will happen. And that is the. [00:38:07] Ultimate of customer journeys when you're achieving that. And so what lifecycle marketers do well, other, other marketers can do well, and I think will be key is thinking about, well, understanding the customer really, really well. Understanding the next best action. This is a place where a lot of AI could be automated, should be automated. [00:38:27] I don't know. It's interesting. I think at least should be recommended. I mean, again, that's a function at scale. Based off of everything you know about a customer, what is the ideal, ne next best action that serves them and thus serves you? That's really key. Then there's the offer that you might offer that that individual in order to serve that next best action. [00:38:45] And then there's the channel. Those are the four things. I did not think of this. I need to give a shout out to Ian at Anthropology. I saw him speak at Snowflake Summit. He is fantastic. And when he spoke this, I said, absolutely. I just, I ate it up and I said, what a great [00:39:00] framework. Those, those four steps. [00:39:01] And so if you think about that. That is what's gonna be the system that we'll need to develop. And then there's so many layers within it. Okay. Of the channels. What's the channel of the, of the offer of the content? How are you creating the content at scale? And I think that, again, the unique piece that we'll bring is the judgment to know that this is going to hit authentically with the customer in a way that's going to work well. [00:39:25] Darrell: Completely agree. And then like also onto the business side, you know, I think that life lifecycle marketers are really well positioned to understand well how are these, if you know, at what rate are customers moving from one stage to the next? What value are they generating at each stage? And like, you know, what are. Where are the best places to invest? You know, and I think that lifecycle marketers sometimes get a bad rap for just doing like email or something, or, you know, but I think that some of the best ones, and I, I, I, I, I work with some great ones, um, [00:40:00] um, really do have like that business mindset on, and I, I think that that's a, that's yet another area, that they can really kind of be in that sweet spot. [00:40:09] 6. How AI Expands the Role of Marketing Ops --- [00:40:09] Darrell: But how about we talk about the, the near and dear one to my heart, which is marketing ops and. I'd love to hear like your take Rebecca on, you know, are we, you know, like, like marketing ops people, we're the ones that do the data. We, we, we often build automations within, within, uh, platforms and hopefully are the ones heavily involved in implementing ai? Like do you think that, that we're gonna be the key strategist for marketing? Um, I'll be a little sad if you don't say that, but, you know, let be, be honest. Like, just tell us the truth and, um. How might the relationship between CMO and Head of Marketing Ops evolve in this new, like a AI centric world that we're gonna be living in? [00:40:51] Rebecca: Well few. I'm glad you're gonna like my answer, my authentic answer. Don't, don't you worry. I have no disappointing news. No, I, I tease. So we talked a lot about [00:41:00] lifecycle marketers. I think marketing ops, MarTech are gonna be the other heroes of this story. Um, and their chance, I would say, if you think historically for marketing ops, they've often been seen as a support function in a way. [00:41:12] Not every case, but many cases. They're not gonna be a support function anymore. They're gonna be a strategic driver. It's gonna be cool. I know Darrell's like, yes, but it's gonna be cool. And the right foundation, right. Systems thinking, uh, the right rigor in that technicality, I think there's more technical skills to be developed as we related to data. [00:41:36] Some folks will need to fill that gap. Some folks might have it already, and I think the next level is okay. I am not just providing tools, services, data so others can do their job. I'm creating an infrastructure so business unit pods can meet their objectives and they are, I believe, will be earning the activation side and actually [00:42:00] they will now be measuring if the business units together are fulfilling the objectives of the company. [00:42:07] That's a big deal. So you can now see them working up, working down. It's not just reporting on progress, it's actually accountability. And they will have a big slice of that accountability based off of their system being able to do it. I mean, let's play here of we're measuring ROI of compute. I mean, think about it. [00:42:27] That's really interesting. And so there's a lot to expand and learn there. So yeah, marketing ops, it's a, it's a tall order and it's gonna be really exciting. [00:42:35] Phil: For the folks that aren't watching on YouTube, like they don't get to see Darryl's growing smile throughout your answer, and he was just like, let's go. Yeah. [00:42:44] Darrell: uh, yeah, I was looking for like a clapping I, 'cause because on Zoom you could do the clapping, but I guess you can't do it here, but, oh my gosh. I. I, you know, just, um, just the music to my ears of, you said marketing ops is no longer a support [00:43:00] function, it's now the infrastructure and how the, you know, business can achieve their objectives. well said like, I'm just gonna put that on my wall. Well said. Or should be a [00:43:13] Rebecca: That's correct. There you go. It's true. It's exciting and I mean, we're, we're celebrating the future. Let's also be realistic. That's, that's a big growth area for some folks. That's a big growth area and big shoes. And I think, I think we can do it. Marketing ops can do it. It's a big, big opportunity. So take it seriously. [00:43:34] Phil: Yeah, Rebecca, we're, we're flying through this interview here, so I, [00:43:36] 7. The Speculative Future of Marketing With Compute Allocation and Machine Customers --- [00:43:36] Phil: I wanted to spend a bit of time stepping into this speculative future of, of marketing for a bit. I'm a big fan of sci-fi, so hopefully just doesn't like border on, on sci-fi too much. But I wanted to chat about, um, you know, just. 10, 15 years into the future, even like five years is really tough to do. [00:43:54] But, um, I'm gonna paint a picture for a couple of like sci-fi based ideas here, and I'm [00:44:00] curious to get your take on it. One of 'em you actually kind of teased out a little bit already, so imagine that budget meetings go from negotiating spend to negotiating compute allocation. Lots of smart folks, including Growth Loop, are actually predicting that marketing is gonna move away from specific discreet campaigns towards like continuous algorithmic ops, AI native marketing operation systems, like are gonna manage budget, creative performance, cross department tasks, blah, blah, blah. [00:44:30] And your budget meetings might actually involve more about negotiating compute allocation across the company rather than media spend. What do you think? [00:44:38] Rebecca: I think it's happening. It's on its way. I think it's in the not so distance future. I think this is why I encourage CMOs to make sure they understand this. The CMOs, they can manage a budget, have great teams to manage a budget. Do you understand what impacts compute costs? Maybe not yet. That's a big deal. [00:44:59] I am [00:45:00] still learning this. This is an area I need to grow. It's a big deal. But I mean, I liked where you pushed before both of you, early in the conversation we said like what percentage of of the org will be agents? Uh, we'll see. Let's say it's 50%. That's their salary. Compute is your agent's salary. Our are, are we actually, uh, seeing the ROI of that efforts and. [00:45:26] I like how you brought up the engine before. Um, growth Loop thinks in terms of the compound marketing engine, this iterative improvement. I think that's gonna be table stakes in this new world because the new sense of optimization isn't channel optimization. It's optimization of the, these agents and their output and the impact that they're having. [00:45:47] And the way you get leverage is the speed in which that increases over time. Versus the spend you're spending to actually achieve those outcomes. So it's gonna be [00:46:00] interesting. We all need to learn. I need to learn. We, we, these, these data cloud folks are gonna be marketers, best friends, get ready, get a data cloud tutor fast because we need to learn this. [00:46:12] Phil: Yeah, it's actually a cool topic for upcoming episode. There just, uh, wrote that down, like demystifying what compute actually means, the costs behind it, because when we did the whole like, uh, package versus composable CDP series on the show, it was one thing that came up a lot in the arguments. It's like the cost of compute and, and zero copy data and blah, blah, blah. [00:46:33] So yeah, I appreciate your thoughts there. [00:46:35] 7.2 Mesh of Agents Coordinating Across Departments --- [00:46:35] Phil: The other one I had, Rebecca and Darrell, you can take the next one if you want, but, um, this idea of like enterprise wide mesh of agents, one of the hardest areas for AI to take over, we kinda talked about this a little bit already, is like the collaboration and navigating internal politics within your companies. [00:46:52] Some folks are actually predicting that at some point agents are gonna be smart enough to reason across functional domains and [00:47:00] coordinate decisions across departments. So it feels like a bit like far off into the future, but we talked about like marketing pods and imagine they're no longer operating in isolation, but they will be part of this enterprise wide mash of agents and they manage pricing, inventory, logistics, customer comms concurrently. [00:47:21] So instead of fighting and negotiating for priorities and resources and backlog and having all those meetings. Imagine an agent that not just like assists your ad spend, but also realigns things like supply chain orders and finance support for a sudden campaign that you want to do in marketing. What are your thoughts there? [00:47:40] Rebecca: Oh man. Well that is definitely. Future centric view? Uh, my reaction to it, one, I bet a lot of headaches will go away if that's true. Maybe that's interesting. Maybe, um, is that good or bad? I'm not sure. Maybe the fact that there are headaches and that collaboration is a sign that it's really crucial to the organization, [00:48:00] thus you don't wanna delegate it. [00:48:01] I don't know. Or maybe it'll bring harmony. That's interesting. So that's, that's one thought. I also, I really push myself to say, believe the future is possible because. Doing that will help drive innovation. Just having that mindset and with that I'll then caveat. Making decisions across organizations, I'm gonna bet on making recommendations before making decisions. [00:48:22] Maybe they're the ultimate arbitrator, like that's great. You know what I mean? Like, oh, maybe that's what brings us the harmony. What we re, I'm speaking as an agent. What we recommend in this case is this, in order for you to achieve this outcome, and it is the most objective recommendation you could get. [00:48:39] So then the humans could make a subjective call, a judgment call. So maybe that. I like in pricing. My goodness, pricing is one of the most strategic lovers of an organization. I can see great recommendations, but again, what about like risk taking? Are agents gonna know when to take risks? I [00:49:00] don't know. Uh, acting maybe against the rules because it feels right for the customer, but isn't good for the business. [00:49:08] Our agent's gonna do that. There's a lot of decision making that is ultimately. Like intentionally imperfect and thus human that I don't know if agents will learn that, and we still need that in business. [00:49:22] Darrell: Yeah. Kind. I think of it like change management, and you're not gonna have AI handle change management for you across an organization, but you, I do see AI helping the humans very much in, in improving how change is, is rolled out across the organization, you know, um, because, you know, and I think, I think we can just even see that these examples in our, in our, our personal life and maybe you all, you all kind of do that too. Like AI is not gonna have. conversation with your partner or a conversation with your children for you, it's gonna give you some guidance on [00:50:00] how to best navigate some of these conversations. And I'm, I'm really excited about that. But yeah, a hundred percent it's, I don't think it's gonna make those decisions. [00:50:07] 7.3 The Rise of Machine Customers --- [00:50:07] Darrell: Um, um, I did wanna talk about this one, and I wrote, I wrote my name down on this question because like, I'm, I'm really curious about this one around the res, the rise of machine customers. for me it's like this. New thing where agents are also purchasing decisions and buying and you know, and it could be not only, um, at the consumer level, but also the business level. And I'm really interested in how kind of, you see that changing the way marketing is done. that change like the profession entirely? And like how does that change the way that we think about business strategies and approaching these kind of things? Maybe you could riff on that a little bit. [00:50:51] Rebecca: Yeah, two opinions there. First, I can't wait. As a consumer and as a busy professional, and mom, I [00:51:00] can't wait. That will be great. I will be great. I'm very pro that. I also am pro it because then what will make it through? We think like marketers, we're thinking in terms of how do we get our commercial gains? [00:51:11] What will make it through? That agent is gonna be representing that person. It's going to say, I will only let through what is going to serve my person best. So I think it will be a forcing function again, to make marketing in as in service of the person as best as possible. And I like that. I like that as a forcing function. [00:51:30] So I think it's a great thing. We'll see what it looks like in reality, uh, and how much consumers like relinquishing some control. Again, is it recommendations versus decisions? I'm not quite sure. Probably recommendations. All of it's gonna be a recommendation phase, and I think it will be a good forcing function too. [00:51:47] Keep marketers thinking in a customer centric way. [00:51:53] Darrell: I, I think that the, the, the fear becomes like, are many of the, [00:52:00] the in interactions between business and customer and business and business going to be agent, talking to agent, and then they start to go in circles. You know, [00:52:09] Rebecca: Mm. [00:52:09] Darrell: I, and I, I, I wonder if I, I wonder if that's a fear, and like you said too, like, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm, my AI agent is going to, you know, have it Like all of the requests or all of the, the marketing coming in into, you know, my inbox, then marketers have an agent trying to circumvent all of those, all of those guards. So I think that that's the part that I, I kind of worry about. Um, do you worry about that too, or, uh, like, it sounds like your take is more optimistic and I'm, I'm, I'm all for that. [00:52:42] If. [00:52:44] Rebecca: Well first, I'm an optimist by nature. I always can nearly always be a discerning optimist. I, I think of the other side, my goodness. Um, if I think of what I likely miss in my email, I bet there are actually good things I need I [00:53:00] miss in my email because I don't have this service, this agent supporting me. [00:53:05] So I think it will, because right now it's, I ignore, I ignore out of just necessity. So I wonder if actually we will bring forward, you might need this, this is, this serves you based off of what I know about you and what you've said that you needed and so on and so forth. So we'll, we'll see it. It's the matter of control. [00:53:22] Can consumers relinquish some control in order to take the help? [00:53:28] Phil: Super cool, Rebecca, the conversation has flown by. I appreciate you. Uh. Letting us veer into the, the speculative future of, of AI a little bit here. I feel like we didn't speculate too, too much. Like your answers were kind of like, yeah. You know, I could see that happening. Or, or some of this stuff's like, uh, percolating already so. [00:53:45] Yeah, some, some fun things to folks to think about and, and ponder as they, they think about their channel specialist role and, uh, you know, what lifecycle kinda looks like there. So, appreciate your thoughts. [00:53:54] 8. How to Stay Energized as a Marketing Leader --- [00:53:54] Phil: We got one last question for you, Rebecca. You're obviously a VP of marketing, marketing advisor. [00:53:59] [00:54:00] You're one of the first 50 employees at HubSpot. You. You're also a writer, a musician and singer. You're also a Ecopreneur, a mom of two boys. You got a ton of stuff going on on this side. One question we ask everyone on the show is, how do you remain happy and successful in your career, and how do you find balance between all the things you're working on while staying happy? [00:54:19] Rebecca: Yeah, well first, every gig I've selected in a career standpoint. I work with people who I love and who push me. You spend so much time at work, you need that, and so I'm really thrilled I have that at Growth Loop. I love the people. I work at Growth Loop. I love our vision at Growth Loop, so that keeps me very fulfilled. [00:54:36] I love my family. We all do. I love my family. I work hard for my family, for my boys, and so that's great. And I love being creative. I love being creative and it's fun being a creative that also is excited about this AI future. Sounds like it could contradict. I don't think it does. I prepared for this conversation using AI and this very collaborative, creative way. [00:54:56] It was awesome. It was great. And so being creative [00:55:00] makes me happy. Whether it be. Being creative through my music or my singing, being creative and helping my boys think creatively. So that's, that's really key and that really gets me going, and it's important. [00:55:12] Phil: Awesome. I appreciate your time, Rebecca. This is super fun. We'll, we'll link out to some of the reports that GR flu, uh, has coming out. We, we talked about the one that you guys did already, but, um, the, the, the AI performance Index is the one that we chatted about, but there's another one your team is working on, I think is releasing around this time around like the, the state of teams and, and the future. [00:55:32] We kinda talked about a lot today, so appreciate all the thoughts you're doing, uh, with the team and, and, and helping future proof the humans of MarTech out there. Appreciate your time today. [00:55:42] Rebecca: Thank you.