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Hello, my name is Jesan Sorrells and

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this is the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books podcast,

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episode number 173.

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During this month or during these last few episodes

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of the show, we have been discussing the nature of warfare and

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war making and even the type of people who, who we ask to go

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out and make war. The

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psychological differences between men and women are numerous

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in this space and in our current era in the west.

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Various militaries, various quote unquote, first world

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militaries, such as the ones in the United States, Great Britain and Canada

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most notably, are having trouble meeting their recruitment

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goals of getting young men to

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volunteer for military service.

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Many elite commentators, floating ideas into the culture that

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eventually may become public policy and then become law, have

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postulated in Canada, Great Britain and the United States

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that a potential pool of

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soldiers who could be conscripted for service into frontline combat

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in places like, I don't know, the Ukraine

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might, a pool might exist among

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young women.

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This idea follows on from the current

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cultural milieu where men and women are

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believed wholeheartedly to be indistinguishable,

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where women can do, quote, unquote, anything that a man can do, only better,

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and where too many young women, and

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quite frankly, young men, have seen too many Marvel movies,

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which drives me absolutely crazy.

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The last 40 years of pursuing educational equity has produced college and university

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environments where 60% of undergraduates are now female.

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And it has led as a knock on effect to a marital

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environment. I just saw this recently where women now initiate,

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70% of all divorces. You

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can go check that stat out yourself as well

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into this cultural reality. At least in the United States and Western Europe,

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the idea that women should serve in frontline combat roles doesn't

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seem so illogical.

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And yet many men,

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particularly young men in most parts of the world where terrorism,

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warfare and violence are the rule of the day, are still the ones that

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commit the most violence and die violently.

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Men still form the backbone of modern militaries and even glorified

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pre modern militias like the Taliban, isis, and even

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the young men who died in droves in the Gaza Strip for the last

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couple of years. Men, particularly young

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men, still do the fighting, and men still do the dying outside of the

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egalitarian Western societies the majority of my

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listeners currently inhabit. And the reality of that

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fact can be observed throughout history. And so such

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a reality begs the question, what is the mindset of

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young men who throughout history have wanted to attack forward positions with

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zeal, knowing that the likelihood of death was high?

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This is a question that was asked in Sebastian

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Younger's book on war, which we covered just last

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episode, if we can't answer this question as a

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culture, and Younger made this point as well, and if men and women are

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really interchangeable and if egalitarianism is really the rule of the

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day, then why not let women serve in front, in the front lines of combat

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against all historical and cultural

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trends? The reason we're going in this

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direction today, the reason I'm asking this question,

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is because the book that we are covering, this theme

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of young men pursuing glory

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and honor and trying to become warriors

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in order to achieve status is a theme that leaped from the

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pages of this book and it's also a

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theme that leaped out to me. But we didn't have a chance to talk about

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it in a similar book that we

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covered in episode number 157 where we talked

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about the writing of Ernie

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Lapointe. Today on this episode

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of the podcast, we will be introducing and discussing the nature,

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I think, of warrior young men, their

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warrior mindsets, their fundamental inability to listen to

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wise old men who were once warriors,

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and what this all means for leaders in our

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rampantly egalitarian time. From

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the volume the Earth

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Is all that Lasts, Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull

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and the Last Stand of the Great Sioux Nation by Mark

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Lee Gardner.

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Leaders, when leading young men and being responsible for channeling

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their enormous energies, walking a fine line is

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the only kind of walk to which you are going to want

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to commit. And

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joining me today, as is our want,

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is my good friend and co host on the show,

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Tom Libby. How you doing this afternoon? Tom, how you

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doing today? I was doing

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fantastic until about five minutes before we hit the record button. They had,

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you know, personal catastrophe, but not anything serious, folks. Not

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like a, you know, a life threatening thing. But it was just, it was a

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funny thing that Hasan and I got a chance to laugh about for a couple

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minutes before we hit the record button. But otherwise, yes, I am, I

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am doing fine and dandy H. Thank you very much for asking. Hey, you're, you're

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welcome. You're welcome. And, and, and his personal catastrophe.

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Catastrophe. I'm laughing about it. I'm laughing at his

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pain as, as. We often do to each

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other. As we often do to each other or Kevin Hart might might inone does

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actually kind of tie into. I made the point before we hit record does kind

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of tie into what we are talking about here today.

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And we covered, we introduced

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the Earth is All that Lasts by Mark Lee Gardner in our

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previous episode, episode number 172I would recommend going back and listening to

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that before you listen to this episode today. But today

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we are going to be, as usual as we do with copyrighted

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material, we're not going to be reading directly from the book or we might like

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read. There's one chap, one piece of one chapter, some observations that I think I'll

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directly read. But the vast majority of the book, we're going to

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summarize the themes in the content and of course, we're going to bat about this

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idea of, of young men and combat

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and counting coup and taking scalps

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and all of the kinds of things that are talked about in, in this

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book. Now, Tom

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has not read the book, but Tom has deep familiarity with the subject matter

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surrounding the book and the subject matter of the book, which

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is the nature of the tribal

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wars that occurred between, quite frankly,

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the native tribes of not only the upper Midwest

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and the Midwest in between the 1860s and the

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1880s, between them and the, the

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United States Cavalry, most notoriously,

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of course, in the Battle of Little Bighorn

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where General George Armstrong Custer died

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ignobly. By the way, I just read that in, read about that in the

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book this weekend. And I gotta say,

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Tom, reading that from a strategic perspective and a

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tactical perspective versus just purely a cultural one, the

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thing that jumped out to me about that battle was,

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yes, the arrogance of Custer and all of that.

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But we just, we just came off of reading a book about World War I.

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We just read John Keegan. So there were arrogant generals. Arrogance is not

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a thing just for, for Armstrong Custer. Like, that's, that's just kind of what you,

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kind of what you get. It was, the thing that jumped out to

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me was just how committed

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he was to a bad deal once it had

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gotten like you could have retreated at any time,

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but he kept not retreating.

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And so it's like he threw good money after bad. And you see this all

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the time in business. You see this all the time in leadership. People see this

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in marriage. I mentioned the, the women initiating

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70% of all divorces, which can be

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interpreted as a case of women no longer being willing to throw good money after

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bad and willing to cut their losses. It is one

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interpretation. I'm not saying it's the interpretation, I'm saying it's one. But in general,

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you do see people who fall into this sunk cost fallacy.

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And a sunk cost fallacy basically states, well, I'm already

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in this thing. I might as well keep going and get to the end.

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And the problem with that is just like Custer at Little

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Bighorn, you can lose everything,

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including the lives of other people, if you. If you don't know

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when to retreat. And he. And that's the biggest thing that jumped out to me

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was just, just how little Custer understood about

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exactly the negotiation that he was in.

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And I'm not asking you to comment on that. I'm merely saying that that was

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the observation that I had there. No, it's a good observation

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though, because if you. And if you go before, even

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before Little Big Horn happened, like

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days and weeks before that, Custer was warned

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about this through from superior officers and saying,

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don't take certain things for granted. Don't do this, don't do that. And he did

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it anyway because to your point about the arrogance, it's. And

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then he ultimately sacrificed the entire seventh Calvary. Right? Like so.

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Correct. It's. And. And again, to. I think

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that. And in modern times, we see it every

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day in the form of startup founders that lean into some ideal that

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they have without actual factual data to

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support it, and they just continue down a path. They go through their entire life

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savings and they're only to realize the idea wasn't good enough or

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didn't work or whatever. Like, we still have the same pro. Like

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we still see the same things today that we did in

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1876 when the battle of Little Big Horn

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happened. So. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, this is a.

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And what we cover on any. What we cover on this podcast. I've been saying

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this a lot as we've been talking about war with the First World War with,

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with John Keegan covering war by Sebastian

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Younger, about the. The battles of the 2nd

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Battalion, um, in the Coral Valley in Afghanistan,

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um, in 2007 and 2008, um,

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or this book talking about the, you know, the tribal wars in the 18.

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The late 1860s, 1870s into the 1880s in, in the

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United States, what you see is this

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remarkable ability to engage in sunk costs

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consistently across all time, which tells me that this is a

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human problem. Not.

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Not one that is. Not one that is. What do you call it,

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bracketed by any particular time or climb or has anything to do with how

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particular people think in a particular kind of way. This is. This is a human

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problem. And I don't know why human beings do this. I don't know if it's

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just the hope that things will get better or

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to your point about arrogance, the absolute arrogance and not being able to listen

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to good advice or I don't know. I

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don't know which one it is, or maybe it's a weird combination of all those

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things together that leads to the

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nonsense and the kinds of disasters that happen to. And the disaster that

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happened to the 7th Cavalry or, you know, can happen to

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an entrepreneur who puts all of their money in, you know, Beanie

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Babies or something.

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And I'm not saying to be. I mean, sure, your Beanie Baby in your basement

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is probably fine. I don't know. But don't, don't bend on it.

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It's. It's 20, 25. I maybe answer something

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else. I do agree with you though. It is definitely a

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human problem because it's not to your point about whether it's. There's

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no bracket in time. There's also no technology that has

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come about to make us get off of this wagon either.

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So if there's not, if you can't point

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to a singular time, singular type of event,

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or a singular technology that gets us on or off this wagon,

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then it has to be like it's. If all like it,

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Occam's Razor says the simple answer is the right one. Right. So.

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So yeah, if all else fails, it has to be us.

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Well, and, and the thing is, technology is

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like caffeine. It allows us to do stupid things faster and better.

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Yeah, right. And we're going to do the same thing with the LLMs. Like, this

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is already beginning to happen. You know, you were already starting to see it.

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And, and whatever comes after the

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LLMs, if it's robotics or whatever. And now in

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warfare, you know, we have this vision and I

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talked about this a little bit with world. With our. When we talked about John

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Keegan's book because of the nature of technological achievement. You and I talked about that

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during World War I and sort of how that combined with sort of

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pre technological thinking that was still

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based in the idea of a mass amount of troops at a certain

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inflection point. Right. By the way, you also saw this

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in, in the wars that are documented in, in this book.

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And the Earth is all that lasts. But

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now we have an idea. And you could see the shift

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in the book War by Sebastian Younger, where we only

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lost 50 guys in the Korengal Valley in two years.

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Any military in the history of the world would take that. Any

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military in the history of the world would take those kinds of losses. And yet

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we still retreated from the Korigal Valley, a place that not

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even people who are native to Afghanistan would go into.

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We went into and we only lost 50 guys. And we still

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retreated because of

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political and cultural reasons. But let's put that aside, the reason we

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only lost 50 guys, even though 150

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Taliban at a swoop would die in a battle, is

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because of superior technology and training. It just

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is. It just is. We're just. You

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would read about, you know, guys breaking down a 50 cal in the

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middle of a firefight while the barrel was still hot,

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reassemble the sucker and keep going.

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When has any military been able to do that in the history of the world?

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That's just better technology and better training. Now I'm

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curious. In the future, as we move more into drones

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and cyber warfare,

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I think we will lose fewer people in war,

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but those inflection points are

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probably going to have more impact.

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And I wonder if human decision making is going

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to have to change because it's easy to. It's

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easy to engage in sunk cost. This is the last thing I'll say about this.

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So we can jump into the book. But it's easy to engage in sunk cost

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when it's just a drone. It's just a 30 million dollar drone. It's okay. We've

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got like 10 more in the back and Raytheon will spin us up like 40

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more before the end of the day. Like it's fine.

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Yeah. If the, if the mindset changes, if there's no loss of life.

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Right. Or, or if the loss of life is so minimal that it

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almost seems like. And I don't want to minimize war. I really don't.

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And it almost seems like a video game. Yeah.

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You know, and that gets back to, of course, my initial point that I opened

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up with, which we could talk about more, but my initial point that I opened

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up with, which is why not women in frontline combat, then.

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I'll let you think about that. Let's go into, let's go into the

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book a little bit. So when you open up, the Earth is all that

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lasts. By the way, this book is highly researched.

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The appendix alone and the notes. I

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think I said this in the intro. The appendix alone

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and the notes. And the level of interviewing that

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Gardner did is almost 200 pages. Just by

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itself, it is ridiculous the amount of work that he put in. He even talked

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to Earn Lapointe about, about

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Sitting Bull and I think about, probably also about Crazy

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Horse. But he did his, he did Garner did his research, you know,

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and he's, he's reporting, I think, reporting accurately and

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writing accurately. Although you can tell me if I'm wrong on this, Tom. You have

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much more knowledge of this than I do. I think he's reporting accurately

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at Least as best he can directly from source material about what

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has actually happened, what actually happened during these, during these battles.

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You can even see it in the writing of, of the book.

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I feel, I feel like you took a very journalistic approach to this, where a

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journalist would go and, you know, to your point about, he, like,

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he found resources. He found resources that validated

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resources. It wasn't just like, I went to a museum and I

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read a couple of, you know, plaques on the wall in,

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you know, in this museum. He read the plaques on the wall in the museum,

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took it as fact, but then found where the museum got that information.

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Like, he did this several times in multiple layers.

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The one thing that, that, the only thing that, that that stands

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out to me that is difficult for me is,

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I mean, he, as it seems very matter of fact

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and it seems very like again, very well

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researched, but it's hard to capture

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the feel of a people not being part of those people.

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Right? So when he, when he talks to Ernie lapointe, he can get Ernie

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Lapointe's vantage point of how those

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wars impacted him three generations, four generations later,

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and how it still impacts him today. But he himself cannot write that

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from a standpoint of experience. He has to write it from a

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standpoint of research. That's the only thing about this book that I think

303
00:19:00,020 --> 00:19:03,750
kind of leaves anything to be desired, that that's the only part. So if

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you're looking at it from a purely educational standpoint, sure, it

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checks the boxes. It does. It checks the like it does the

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ones and zeros. But it's very difficult to get the emotional,

307
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the emotional part of writing from him on the, from the

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people's perspective. I would agree with that. It does come off like the reportage

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that Sebastian Younger did in his book War that we also covered.

310
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It does. It strikes less of a historical tone like

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Keegan did with the First World War.

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And so it's, it's.

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Without being there, how are you going to get that

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emotion, you know, without being there with the Seventh Calvary or without being there with

315
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:52,670
the Lakota, how are you going to get that kind of emotion? Right? Even by

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00:19:52,670 --> 00:19:56,350
the way, people like Lapointe and I would even. I wouldn't knock

317
00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:59,030
the point, but I would say even. I would even turn that critique on the

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point. I would say, well, as I sometimes will

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say during, during the books that we cover during Black History Month, sometimes, particularly from

320
00:20:06,070 --> 00:20:08,910
Malcolm X or the writings of Martin Luther King Jr.

321
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I was born after all, that was over. Like,

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there's no emotional Connection for me in that kind of way, right. To the, to

323
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:22,840
the ideas that those writers are writing about. So without being there,

324
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,440
I don't know how you, I don't know how any of the parties

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00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,040
get to get to sort of

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the, the emotional heart of the matter of

327
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,400
these events. It's, I, I

328
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totally understand and agree with what you're saying and I get that it's not

329
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necessarily the emotional value of the

330
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,930
actual event at hand,

331
00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:52,930
but there's intrinsic value that, that escalates through generations

332
00:20:53,410 --> 00:20:57,090
after the fact that Ernie Lapoint could potentially feel. Right.

333
00:20:57,410 --> 00:21:01,010
Things that, things that happened because like that, that's that

334
00:21:01,010 --> 00:21:04,770
whole. The ripple effect. Right. So things that happened that day

335
00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:08,610
still impact him today. Whether we want to feel that or not

336
00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:12,690
is not it. But it does. We know it does. We know what generational trauma

337
00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:16,320
looks like. And, and you know, we,

338
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,480
we've had conversations about how generational trauma

339
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,320
impacts several other ethnicities and not just native, but,

340
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,160
you know, the Irish from the Potato famine, the, you know, black history

341
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,200
over the course of slavery, et cetera, et cetera. Because you could say the same

342
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,000
thing. Black people today are, they've never, like their grandparents

343
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,720
never experienced slavery, but that does not mean that the slavery does not

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impact them today. They still have emotional scars,

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00:21:41,650 --> 00:21:44,450
whether they think it or not. And some of them want to move past it.

346
00:21:44,450 --> 00:21:47,770
And I totally agree with that. And again, same thing for us. Like certain things

347
00:21:47,770 --> 00:21:51,450
that happen, we, we've. You, you try to find a way to move past it

348
00:21:51,450 --> 00:21:54,730
because if you don't and you start to dwell on those things, you drive yourself

349
00:21:54,730 --> 00:21:58,330
crazy. You, you'll drive yourself absolute bonkers by trying to

350
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rationalize it or fix it. There's no way to fix the past. You can't go

351
00:22:02,010 --> 00:22:05,760
back and fix it. But we tend to try. Like try to, we

352
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,160
try to course. We try to. We try to course correct so hard that we

353
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,680
create other problems that weren't really related to

354
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,760
et cetera, et cetera. Right. So it's like, so I, it's not that early. Ernie

355
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,440
Lapointe needed to be at Little Big Horn for it to impact him.

356
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,160
But that's what I'm getting at with Mark Lee Gardner here. He has neither

357
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,920
attachment, whether it be at the event or ripple

358
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,280
effects down the line of generational trauma that happens after the fact. He's

359
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,130
purely looking at it from a research and article

360
00:22:35,130 --> 00:22:38,570
driven kind of mentality. He's an encyclopedia

361
00:22:38,570 --> 00:22:42,290
opic kind of writing this, which again, I'm not suggesting

362
00:22:42,290 --> 00:22:46,090
it's a bad thing because to me Sometimes that's better because you get to. It's

363
00:22:46,090 --> 00:22:49,930
like, like the. What is it? What is the. The TV series

364
00:22:50,570 --> 00:22:54,250
Dragnet? Just the facts, ma'. Am. Oh, just the facts, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't

365
00:22:54,250 --> 00:22:57,490
tell. Don't tell me a story. Tell me just the facts. Which this does really

366
00:22:57,490 --> 00:23:01,270
well. And it's very. It's so well researched that you do get

367
00:23:01,670 --> 00:23:05,470
really factual information based on it. So again, from that

368
00:23:05,470 --> 00:23:08,990
perspective, it's great. All I was saying is that. That

369
00:23:08,990 --> 00:23:12,670
this particular time

370
00:23:12,670 --> 00:23:16,429
frame in our country does have some emotional impact that lasted

371
00:23:16,429 --> 00:23:20,070
generations beyond it. And he. He can't capture that. There's no way

372
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:23,430
for him to. Yeah, well, he. I would say he.

373
00:23:23,670 --> 00:23:26,310
He makes a bit of an attempt,

374
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,280
when you're looking at the structure of the book, he makes a bit of an

375
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,880
attempt in looking at the interviews that Sitting

376
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,360
Bull gave later about what had happened

377
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,200
during that time. Also looking at an inter.

378
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,600
Not the interviews, but looking at the. The writings and the letters of

379
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,200
people who were there at the time, including Indians who

380
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,600
were taken prisoner of prisoners, as

381
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,420
prisoners, but also whites, for lack of a better

382
00:23:58,420 --> 00:24:02,260
term, who were taken prisoner by the Lakota

383
00:24:02,260 --> 00:24:05,660
or the Hunkpapa or various other tribes. Right. The

384
00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:09,500
Cheyenne, the Comanche. Trying to get those. Those

385
00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:13,300
perspectives. He also, interestingly enough, in the structure of this book,

386
00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:16,660
and I thought this, this also jumped out to me. He.

387
00:24:18,820 --> 00:24:22,100
I don't want to say cherry picked because he's building an argument here,

388
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,280
so he's going to pick the things that fit his argument, which is fine with

389
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,040
me. He pulls from

390
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,880
newspaper writings and editorials of the day and

391
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:36,240
lets those perspectives

392
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,640
sort of speak for themselves. Right. So

393
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,400
when he quotes from, you know, a newspaper in Montana

394
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,480
that is funded probably

395
00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:52,820
by people from back east who want to see, you know,

396
00:24:52,820 --> 00:24:55,940
something happen in Montana or folks in

397
00:24:55,940 --> 00:24:59,740
Colorado, particularly, you know, the settlers who went

398
00:24:59,740 --> 00:25:03,420
to Colorado, who massively despised

399
00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:07,100
the Indian tribes in Colorado because they thought that somehow they were

400
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:10,420
stopping them from getting gold, which of course was non. Existent, but let's just leave

401
00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:14,220
that aside for just a second. Or the Black Hills,

402
00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:18,010
like everything that happened with the Black Hills and that whole, entire.

403
00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:21,850
That whole, entire area and the perceptions of folks

404
00:25:21,930 --> 00:25:25,450
that looked at the Black Hills in one way

405
00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:28,770
and then of course, the native tribes who looked at it in a totally, completely

406
00:25:28,770 --> 00:25:32,610
different way and the way that that was publicized, I think he gets to somewhat

407
00:25:32,610 --> 00:25:36,330
of that emotional tenor by. By quoting directly from those people.

408
00:25:36,330 --> 00:25:40,010
You do get some of that. And I think that's probably to your point,

409
00:25:40,980 --> 00:25:43,860
as close as you're going to get to kind of

410
00:25:45,460 --> 00:25:49,060
the kind of a on the ground perspective, I

411
00:25:49,060 --> 00:25:52,740
guess. And here's the other piece. And

412
00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:55,380
we always have to keep this in mind when we're reading books that are written

413
00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:59,140
about historical events. The further and further away we get from the

414
00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:02,620
thing, and we've seen this in a lot of books that we've covered on this

415
00:26:02,620 --> 00:26:06,340
show that have been historical books. The further and further away you get

416
00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:09,660
away from the thing. Yes. The more disconnected you become from it

417
00:26:09,660 --> 00:26:13,180
emotionally. And that's not to say the trauma doesn't exist, but the more

418
00:26:13,180 --> 00:26:16,740
disconnected you become from it relationally and emotionally, but also

419
00:26:17,620 --> 00:26:18,260
the more

420
00:26:21,620 --> 00:26:25,300
resources and information is available. Weirdly enough. Scarcity

421
00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:27,540
of it. Yeah, yeah. So,

422
00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:33,620
you know, I often think I try to transpose my brain sometimes,

423
00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:37,620
you know, when I'm, you know, awake at night, I will

424
00:26:37,620 --> 00:26:41,300
transpose my brain a thousand years forward and wonder what the

425
00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:44,860
hell kind of books are people going to write about all of us. Because everything

426
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:49,620
that could possibly fall out of our mouths is

427
00:26:49,620 --> 00:26:53,460
now published on the Internet. Yeah. And will be preserved a

428
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:57,220
thousand years from now. What is going. What. Oh, my

429
00:26:57,220 --> 00:27:00,900
God. Oh my God. The Mark Lee Gardner a thousand years from now. I do

430
00:27:00,900 --> 00:27:04,620
the opposite. I, I sit and think. I do not want to know what they're.

431
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:11,560
I, I have no faith. I have no faith in us whatsoever that it's going

432
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,040
to come out all right. No, I think, I think that. I think the people

433
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,640
a thousand years from now will be perpetually

434
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,120
fascinated. Like there are volumes and volumes and volumes of books written about the

435
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:25,680
Roman Empire because you're perpetually fascinated with those people. Because the average

436
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,520
person had no voice in the Roman Empire. We don't know what the

437
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,730
average person who is bringing in a cartoon full of like,

438
00:27:32,970 --> 00:27:36,770
donkeys or sheep or whatever to trade in Rome at 3 o' clock

439
00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:39,810
in the morning. We have no idea what that person thought. Because the vast majority

440
00:27:39,810 --> 00:27:42,970
of people throughout the history of the world, up until about 10 minutes ago

441
00:27:43,290 --> 00:27:47,050
were illiterate. They were unable even to write their own names.

442
00:27:47,050 --> 00:27:50,810
Well, with the explosion of literacy, the explosion of now

443
00:27:50,810 --> 00:27:54,450
information technology, back to the point about technology, a thousand years from now,

444
00:27:54,450 --> 00:27:58,130
people will know more about us now, what judgments they will make

445
00:27:58,130 --> 00:27:58,730
about us.

446
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,160
That's what I'm saying. I don't want to know. I don't want to know.

447
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:11,000
And I think they will be endlessly fascinated and they will not be able to

448
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,320
figure us out even with all available data. They'll be like, I still don't understand

449
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,720
these people. Which should be Fascinating.

450
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,720
That's. That should be fascinating. All right, back to the book.

451
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,000
So we open up. The Earth is all that lasts. And you start off with.

452
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,540
And I really liked this, this, that he sort of begins,

453
00:28:29,540 --> 00:28:32,820
or Gardner begins with this idea

454
00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:37,060
of the

455
00:28:37,060 --> 00:28:40,420
Lakota idea of not wanting

456
00:28:41,060 --> 00:28:44,820
a young man to live, to be an old man, to die young on

457
00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:48,660
the battlefield. Right. That. That's the way a Lakota dies. So I

458
00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:51,700
want to, I want to talk a little bit about that because that sort of

459
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:55,540
creates the thread that goes through this entire book. It's

460
00:28:55,540 --> 00:28:59,130
this idea of young men who are

461
00:28:59,130 --> 00:29:02,970
seeking warrior status, who have a lot

462
00:29:02,970 --> 00:29:03,410
of energy,

463
00:29:07,410 --> 00:29:09,650
And there's only one spot they have to put it.

464
00:29:13,490 --> 00:29:15,890
You know, they're not going to become agrarian

465
00:29:17,410 --> 00:29:21,090
walking behind a, a cow or, or,

466
00:29:21,250 --> 00:29:24,990
or a donkey. I

467
00:29:24,990 --> 00:29:28,830
think that. And I've asked this question on the show before, and I will

468
00:29:28,830 --> 00:29:32,350
revisit this a little bit later on, but could the

469
00:29:32,350 --> 00:29:36,110
native tribes in the upper Midwest and in the Midwest

470
00:29:36,590 --> 00:29:39,310
have lived as they lived traditionally

471
00:29:40,270 --> 00:29:43,990
if the wars hadn't happened, could that way

472
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:46,430
of life have continued down through the 20th century

473
00:29:47,710 --> 00:29:51,550
and increasingly. I think the answer is. The tragic answer is

474
00:29:51,550 --> 00:29:54,970
no. I think industrialization would have gotten those folks if not the.

475
00:29:55,130 --> 00:29:58,730
If the US Calvary hadn't gotten them. Industrialization would have gotten them

476
00:29:58,810 --> 00:30:02,010
industrialization and commercialization. So those are like two twin

477
00:30:03,130 --> 00:30:06,650
hammer blows that really hit those folks in

478
00:30:06,890 --> 00:30:09,610
those areas. If you want a reference point to

479
00:30:10,730 --> 00:30:14,410
support your hypothesis. Yeah. Think of, think of the New

480
00:30:14,410 --> 00:30:18,250
England area in the, you know, 200 years

481
00:30:18,250 --> 00:30:21,980
earlier. Right. So the mid-1600s come.

482
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:26,060
Comes along where, you know, King Philip's War

483
00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:29,020
in 1675, basically,

484
00:30:30,140 --> 00:30:33,780
King Philip was trying really, really hard to get all of the New

485
00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:37,460
England tribes on the same page and fight and fight with him against

486
00:30:37,460 --> 00:30:39,900
the English, you know, Puritan kind of

487
00:30:40,620 --> 00:30:44,460
establishment. And after that war, we don't have to

488
00:30:44,460 --> 00:30:47,670
talk about the whole thing, but just, just quickly

489
00:30:47,670 --> 00:30:51,430
summarize. After that war, realizing the natives were not going to win

490
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:54,910
the, the war against the Puritans, a lot of the

491
00:30:54,910 --> 00:30:58,470
Abenaki people in the northern part of Massachusetts and

492
00:30:58,470 --> 00:31:02,070
southern Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine basically just left.

493
00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:04,950
They were like, so you had three choices. Assimilate,

494
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:09,750
assimilate, or die. No, two choices, assimilate or die. You either became

495
00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:13,560
part of the cog or you died. And. And rather than do

496
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,200
that, they left. So that was the third choice. Assimilate, die, or leave. So they

497
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,680
all went to the St. Lawrence River Valley area up in Canada.

498
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,400
I'm getting to my point here. Now. Comes the American revolution,

499
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,440
sorry, the industrial revolution where you know, all

500
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,240
of these factories are being built and we're looking for population in order to,

501
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,160
to get these factories up, up and running. And this is in the mid

502
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,800
18, mid 1800s, so almost 200 years later. And a bunch of those

503
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,800
native people just came down naturally to work in the factories.

504
00:31:43,950 --> 00:31:47,590
So there's a lot an influx of native people came back from Canada because

505
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:51,350
to your point about the, their quote unquote way of life, it

506
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:55,150
was faltering then and it was. They already started seeing it getting chewed up

507
00:31:55,150 --> 00:31:58,630
and spit out. So they were looking at what's next and they just decided to

508
00:31:58,630 --> 00:32:02,350
come back down and work in the factories. Now they came under the guise of

509
00:32:02,670 --> 00:32:06,470
we're French Canadian and we weren't native because I

510
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:08,670
mean they didn't want their kids taken from them. And we don't have to get

511
00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:11,690
into all that about the boarding schools, etc. Etc. But

512
00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:16,370
if they passed for Canadian or whatever, French

513
00:32:16,370 --> 00:32:19,850
Canadian, that's what they came back to and started

514
00:32:19,930 --> 00:32:23,730
specifying as. And then there was all this hush hush about have

515
00:32:23,730 --> 00:32:27,449
a native in your family lineage and whatever. But you just didn't talk about that

516
00:32:27,449 --> 00:32:31,010
in public because again, you didn't, you knew what was happening to

517
00:32:31,010 --> 00:32:34,810
natives across the country in the west there. So you just didn't.

518
00:32:35,210 --> 00:32:38,900
Again, to your point, to, to at least give you a glimmer of your

519
00:32:38,900 --> 00:32:42,740
thought process might have been right because we saw

520
00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:46,180
that in the eastern part of the country with the industrial revolution.

521
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:50,260
So whether, whether it happened in the late 1800s, early 1900s,

522
00:32:50,260 --> 00:32:53,900
maybe it, maybe it lasted until World War II or

523
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:57,580
the, the depression, but eventually I do agree with you

524
00:32:57,580 --> 00:33:01,220
that some sort of technological advancement would have caught up and

525
00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:04,740
they would have either paid attention to it, noticed it or wanted part of it.

526
00:33:05,030 --> 00:33:08,790
Right. So yeah, even if they were to able to extend it, let's

527
00:33:08,790 --> 00:33:12,190
say, let's, let's give them the, the hugest benefit of the doubt. Let's say they

528
00:33:12,190 --> 00:33:15,270
extended it a hundred years. So from 1860 to

529
00:33:15,270 --> 00:33:18,830
1960. If you think about all those civil rights movements that

530
00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:22,310
happened and all that, I don't think they would have been able to stay isolated.

531
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:26,190
Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. Natural. There would have been a natural progression to

532
00:33:26,190 --> 00:33:29,750
modernize and especially based on what they were seeing

533
00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:33,700
like happening in their, they're, let's say for what it

534
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:36,820
was if, if the U. S. Cavalry didn't go in there, their

535
00:33:36,820 --> 00:33:40,340
neighbors. Right. So their neighbors would have been having all this

536
00:33:40,340 --> 00:33:44,140
stuff impacting them and Even if they became friends and allies with the United

537
00:33:44,140 --> 00:33:47,900
States government, that would have created a completely different ball of

538
00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:50,780
wax that they. That I don't think they would have been ready for. So

539
00:33:51,580 --> 00:33:55,140
again, as much as I would love to think that everything would have been

540
00:33:55,140 --> 00:33:58,770
copacetic in our native ways would have been fine, I'm not so sure about

541
00:33:58,770 --> 00:34:02,370
that. And I think history did give us some insights as to how that would

542
00:34:02,370 --> 00:34:05,530
have happened. Yeah, well. And you see this in.

543
00:34:07,290 --> 00:34:10,930
So the Lakota versus the Pawnee. Right. So

544
00:34:10,930 --> 00:34:14,570
here's something that also, I think Gardner does a really good job in.

545
00:34:14,570 --> 00:34:16,010
In. In pointing out.

546
00:34:20,810 --> 00:34:24,410
It wasn't just the white immigrants coming across

547
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,360
the country from the east looking for gold or

548
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,120
mining or prospecting or

549
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,440
as part of the cavalry or surveying for

550
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,040
railroads, which is the industrialization piece. It wasn't

551
00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:44,480
just that. That was a thing,

552
00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:47,760
don't get me wrong. And

553
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,999
because you can have a multiple different things inside of this dynamic,

554
00:34:52,479 --> 00:34:54,319
you had the Lakota versus

555
00:34:55,919 --> 00:34:59,599
seemingly everyone else. It wasn't until,

556
00:34:59,839 --> 00:35:03,599
like close to the end that

557
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:07,438
they all kind of got the religion, and I

558
00:35:07,438 --> 00:35:10,919
use that term small r loosely, the

559
00:35:10,919 --> 00:35:14,639
belief that maybe it might be a good idea

560
00:35:14,639 --> 00:35:18,010
for us to stop scrolling, screwing each other

561
00:35:18,170 --> 00:35:21,850
over. And maybe we have a common. I

562
00:35:21,850 --> 00:35:24,970
mean, by the time they got to that point, by the way, you know, Red.

563
00:35:24,970 --> 00:35:28,090
To paraphrase from Red Cloud and you know, people

564
00:35:28,570 --> 00:35:31,610
sitting. Both sitting, but like Crazy Horse disrespected Red Cloud, I think

565
00:35:31,610 --> 00:35:34,970
tremendously. But Red Cloud,

566
00:35:36,650 --> 00:35:40,490
he kind of could see the future. And he wasn't wrong. He said,

567
00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:43,340
you know, the white people are going to keep coming anyway. What are we doing?

568
00:35:43,580 --> 00:35:46,300
We got. And by the way, you saw this in some of their negotiations around

569
00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:49,980
the Black Hills. So the anti Treaty or not the anti Tree. Sorry, the pro

570
00:35:49,980 --> 00:35:53,580
Treaty tribes who were negotiating around the Black

571
00:35:53,580 --> 00:35:57,340
Hills. It was kind of amazing to me. The chiefs selling. Selling price around

572
00:35:57,340 --> 00:36:00,660
the Black Hills steadily increased over the course of the

573
00:36:00,660 --> 00:36:03,740
negotiations until it finally reached $70 million.

574
00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:07,940
I thought that was brilliant. I put a star next to that and I was

575
00:36:07,940 --> 00:36:11,680
like, this is. This

576
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,520
is. I mean, this is the way of the future. If industrialization,

577
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,120
let's take the cavalry out of it. If they're going to. If the. If. If

578
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,520
the movement of peoples is going to continue west.

579
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,440
And maybe this is me being an old man and not wanting to like, I.

580
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,800
I don't need to count coup anymore. I'm not that. I don't need to go

581
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,840
off and have a war and fight. I'm not. I'm not driven by any of

582
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,160
those things, like young men are driven.

583
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,160
$70 million. I can set up some intergenerational

584
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,480
stuff with that money. Right. And I'm not saying that they would have gotten that

585
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,280
out of the Grant Administration, the President Grant administration. I think that that

586
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,040
was probably outrageous. But they were on to something.

587
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,240
I think that Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse both missed.

588
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,400
The US Government may not have had that kind of money at that point anyway.

589
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,750
Yeah. $70 million was the entire federal government at that point. Point. Like,

590
00:37:07,870 --> 00:37:11,230
we didn't have a $3 trillion budget the way we do today. I mean,

591
00:37:11,710 --> 00:37:15,270
or $38 trillion in debt. Like, we, we were still tied to the gold

592
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:18,550
standard and like, come on, that's the reason for the gold rushes and things like

593
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:22,350
that. But I think, I think I do. I think that

594
00:37:22,350 --> 00:37:25,950
Red Cloud and Spotted Tail and all those. All those, Those

595
00:37:25,950 --> 00:37:29,670
chiefs were. I think they were

596
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:33,080
onto something. I also think, I mean,

597
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:36,920
again, this is. This is really hard to be judgmental about

598
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:40,840
today because. Right. Yeah. Because, you know, and again,

599
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,320
you saw, you saw this. We. We

600
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,920
talk about this on this podcast, Tayson, a thousand times about how history just

601
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,360
continues to repeat itself over and over. I just gave you an example about King

602
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,200
Philip's war that, that happened in the early, you know, in the mid-1600s.

603
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,960
It happened again in the 1700s with Tecumseh and, and him trying to

604
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,200
go up and down the. The Mississippi, trying to collect as many tribal

605
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,920
affiliations that he could in order to stop that westward

606
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,560
movement up into the Mississippi, never mind after and beyond the Mississippi,

607
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,280
and he failed. It just, it was.

608
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,720
And by the way, the. There's always an underlying thing here

609
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:22,280
about. And, And I didn't live at that time, and we

610
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,060
certainly can't talk to Sitting Bull and Red Cloud here, but there was

611
00:38:26,060 --> 00:38:29,500
a disconnect between, between them because of

612
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:33,940
what. What Sitting Bull and, and, and people like Crazy

613
00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:37,700
Horse would have viewed as greed on his part. Right. Like, you're

614
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:41,260
signing these treaties and you're. All you're concerned about is your small.

615
00:38:41,260 --> 00:38:44,900
Try your small village of people, and you're not worried about the rest of

616
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:48,500
the Lakota, Right? So whether it's Hung Papa Titan

617
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:52,170
or, or Aglala, whatever, like there's all, all these bands of sue.

618
00:38:52,330 --> 00:38:56,090
And Red Cloud was worried about his people, so he's signing. To your point,

619
00:38:56,090 --> 00:38:59,530
whether he was, whether, Whether he foresaw the future or not,

620
00:38:59,930 --> 00:39:03,290
I don't think that was as important to him at the moment as it was

621
00:39:03,370 --> 00:39:06,970
self preservation and thinking. Because think about it as the

622
00:39:06,970 --> 00:39:10,170
Westward came. They hit Red Cloud first. Yep.

623
00:39:10,650 --> 00:39:13,890
So all that he had already encountered, all that death and

624
00:39:13,890 --> 00:39:17,520
destruction and all that stuff. So he was already a

625
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,160
beaten man by the time the. The cavalry and the US Calvary got

626
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,960
out to face Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull. So they.

627
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,000
They're into your point. If they were looking at it from the

628
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,800
right perspective, they could have been looking back at their future, so to speak.

629
00:39:33,039 --> 00:39:36,400
And they didn't want to admit that, or certainly didn't want to want to.

630
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,040
And nor did they feel the need to admit it after. After a Little

631
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,800
Bighorn. Well, well. And this is the thing. So this

632
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,120
is why, by the way. I know that

633
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,560
Little Bighorn was the. Probably the most famous. But Rosebud was just as

634
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,320
important of a battle to them, and they won that battle. So it's,

635
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,240
it's, you know, again, it's. There's a lot of moving parts

636
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:02,760
here. I know. And there's a lot of psyche and, and, you know,

637
00:40:03,319 --> 00:40:07,000
bravado and again, some arrogance

638
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:07,960
on. But

639
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,430
to your point, with technological advancement, I think that there's. And

640
00:40:14,430 --> 00:40:17,830
by the way, there's. There are some historians that will give you a

641
00:40:17,830 --> 00:40:21,030
single point of reflection in that, in that

642
00:40:21,350 --> 00:40:25,190
time frame that literally changed the course of history and that was the invention of

643
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:29,030
the howitzer. Oh, yeah. Right. So, like, you can say a lot of

644
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:32,390
things about. But if it. Had it not been for the invention of the

645
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:35,910
Holitzer, the. These things might have played out differently.

646
00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:39,760
Well, in the lack of interest. No.

647
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,520
How can I frame it? Because

648
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,000
we live after World War II

649
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,160
and. Hell, because we live in a world where

650
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,840
I can see a

651
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,640
death like the death of. I'm gonna name

652
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,400
two. I can see the death of George Floyd or the death of Charlie Kirk

653
00:41:04,970 --> 00:41:08,770
live on my phone literally the instant

654
00:41:08,770 --> 00:41:12,210
that it happens or. Or minutes after, or

655
00:41:12,210 --> 00:41:15,530
minutes after literally, as opposed to even when we were kids,

656
00:41:16,810 --> 00:41:20,210
a day later, because the news, you know, the news cycle was

657
00:41:20,210 --> 00:41:24,010
longer because it took time to research this, find out what happened, etc. Etc.

658
00:41:24,170 --> 00:41:28,010
Interview people. Exactly. You can have that. That instant.

659
00:41:28,090 --> 00:41:30,650
Like how many phones were available at the time.

660
00:41:31,580 --> 00:41:35,420
Exactly. And so I think we confuse this. This is the arrogance of the

661
00:41:35,420 --> 00:41:38,980
current era. We take our arrogance in the current

662
00:41:38,980 --> 00:41:40,620
era and we look at

663
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:46,899
the nature of interactions between people in

664
00:41:46,899 --> 00:41:50,620
the past where, yes, in their time, they thought

665
00:41:50,620 --> 00:41:53,340
communication was instant and fast.

666
00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:58,010
And in comparison to where communication went, it was slow. Slow and

667
00:41:58,010 --> 00:42:01,650
ponderous. Okay. If Tecumseh had had a cell

668
00:42:01,650 --> 00:42:05,250
phone, like, you

669
00:42:05,250 --> 00:42:08,730
know, let's run that experiment. Right. Or if,

670
00:42:10,330 --> 00:42:14,170
If Sitting Bull had had the Internet, which, by the way, by the way,

671
00:42:14,490 --> 00:42:17,130
Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse,

672
00:42:18,170 --> 00:42:21,930
the Lakota, the sue in general,

673
00:42:22,090 --> 00:42:25,400
as part of their attempts to keep the white

674
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,080
settlers out, took down the telegraph polls,

675
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,040
which is kind of interesting to me because, number one, I never

676
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,640
heard of that detail before, but number two, it

677
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:38,280
showed.

678
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,880
Both a fundamental understanding but also fundamental misunderstanding of exactly what

679
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,880
was happening. Both. Both things occurring at exactly the same time.

680
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:54,790
And so we look at this, and this goes to. But just my point,

681
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:58,430
we look at it from our era and we go, well, if I had been.

682
00:42:58,430 --> 00:43:02,110
No, no, no, no, no, no. If you'd been there, you probably would have done

683
00:43:02,110 --> 00:43:05,630
exactly what those people did, because you would have only had access to those resources

684
00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:09,110
then. And this in the. Exactly. And that data.

685
00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:13,110
And the data, the key data that the American, that

686
00:43:13,830 --> 00:43:15,910
the tribal peoples

687
00:43:17,660 --> 00:43:21,420
west of Texas, north and west of Texas missed totally

688
00:43:21,420 --> 00:43:25,140
and completely was the Civil War. That was the biggest piece of data

689
00:43:25,140 --> 00:43:28,900
they missed. And that was the opportunity to catch the

690
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:32,380
Americans napping. And they didn't even.

691
00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:35,660
It didn't even. It didn't even hit them. Like, they're like, I don't. I don't

692
00:43:35,660 --> 00:43:38,020
know, something's going on. The white people are killed. I don't know. They're not bothering

693
00:43:38,020 --> 00:43:41,340
us. We can go shoot buffalo. Which is fine, by the way. Maybe, maybe that's

694
00:43:41,340 --> 00:43:44,100
what you needed to do. But I also think it was a. It was an

695
00:43:44,100 --> 00:43:46,710
instance of they didn't have the information

696
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:51,550
because the technology wasn't there. And I'm not even sure they

697
00:43:51,550 --> 00:43:54,590
would have known what to do with it once they, once they got it. Our

698
00:43:54,590 --> 00:43:58,150
statement in the beginning of this episode of this podcast that we're

699
00:43:58,150 --> 00:44:00,790
recording right now, we talked about the technology.

700
00:44:01,590 --> 00:44:05,350
Probably doesn't matter. And again, I'll give you another example of why

701
00:44:05,350 --> 00:44:09,030
you are right to say that and why right now we're

702
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:12,470
like, the way that you're saying this, like you're talking about technology and

703
00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:16,340
accumulating data that might have been helpful. I don't think so. And let

704
00:44:16,340 --> 00:44:19,860
me explain why. So again, go back to the early

705
00:44:19,860 --> 00:44:23,300
1800s and the divide and conquer of the Cherokee people. The

706
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:26,740
Cherokee. And by the way, if any of our listeners here at Cherokee, I'm going

707
00:44:26,740 --> 00:44:30,220
to super paraphrase this, so don't vilify me for I.

708
00:44:30,780 --> 00:44:34,340
Trust me, we don't have enough time to go through the entire rigmarole of how

709
00:44:34,340 --> 00:44:38,180
the Cherokee, how the Cherokee government was dismantled by the US

710
00:44:38,180 --> 00:44:42,030
Government through contract negotiations and, and then just v. Just

711
00:44:42,030 --> 00:44:45,350
pushed right out they, they basically did a divide and conquer. It was. To your

712
00:44:45,350 --> 00:44:49,070
point, Hsan had nothing to do with technology. It was purely simple human

713
00:44:49,070 --> 00:44:52,910
interaction. And they realized how to manipulate humans. They took the

714
00:44:52,910 --> 00:44:56,669
Cherokee, they took the Cherokee land

715
00:44:56,669 --> 00:45:00,470
and, and, and government divided it into four and said, we're going

716
00:45:00,470 --> 00:45:03,990
to give. You know, these four people are the only. They essentially said, you're,

717
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:07,600
we're going to treat you like a real government, but because we're treating you like

718
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,880
a real government, you speak now for all of your people, you speak for all

719
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,680
your people, you speak, etc. Etc. And three out of the

720
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,920
four people decided to sign off, sign off on the removal act,

721
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,120
like they said it was okay to remove them from their land. And again, for

722
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,040
those of you who are listening, if you happen to be Cherokee descent, I know

723
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,840
that I'm butchering this a little bit. I just. We don't have time to go

724
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,600
into all the details. Yeah, but, but the, the reality of it is. Go now

725
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,040
fast forward to what we were just talking about with these, the, this particular

726
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,640
scenario. The manipulation of people

727
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:42,040
is going to be far greater, far, far more

728
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,520
powerful than any technology they could have ever implemented.

729
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,440
Yes. So. Yes. So again, I, I said a second ago

730
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,160
that the howitzer changed everything, and I still stand by that. But what

731
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,680
it changed was the whole divide and conquer of the tribal

732
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,480
affiliations that started to become one. They, people saw that,

733
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,150
they got scared. They said, I have, I have to save my people,

734
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:07,350
so we're gonna go sign our own treaties. They started basically

735
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:11,430
dismantling that, that union that, that started to form with

736
00:46:11,430 --> 00:46:15,190
those tribes. It was, it was still human to human problems

737
00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:18,470
that created the, the, the defeat. But

738
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:22,870
that advent of that technology scared the absolute bejesus out of

739
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:26,710
people. Yeah, well, and,

740
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:29,670
and let me, let me bring up another point which is not in my notes,

741
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:33,250
but it, it, it's okay because this is what happens when I have a conversation

742
00:46:33,250 --> 00:46:35,290
with Tom. I think about things that are in my notes.

743
00:46:39,770 --> 00:46:43,570
There is something about, and

744
00:46:43,570 --> 00:46:47,370
I'm going to approach this from the other end of the telescope. So normally

745
00:46:47,370 --> 00:46:48,330
I would say.

746
00:46:53,770 --> 00:46:55,130
The power of.

747
00:46:59,220 --> 00:47:02,940
European. No, let me

748
00:47:02,940 --> 00:47:06,380
frame it this way. I'll frame a different kind of way. The 1500 years that

749
00:47:06,380 --> 00:47:08,980
the Europeans had of beating the brakes off of each other

750
00:47:12,340 --> 00:47:16,020
about religion, about economics and about

751
00:47:16,020 --> 00:47:19,780
politics. The conclusions

752
00:47:19,940 --> 00:47:23,610
that came out of that. Beating the brakes off of each other on that

753
00:47:23,610 --> 00:47:27,330
one continent for 1500 years with, by the way,

754
00:47:27,650 --> 00:47:31,490
almost no external pushing

755
00:47:31,570 --> 00:47:35,410
on that. Right. The Chinese didn't come across the silk, didn't come

756
00:47:35,410 --> 00:47:38,890
down the Silk Road and invade Europe. The closest the

757
00:47:38,890 --> 00:47:42,050
Muslims ever got was at the siege of Vienna in

758
00:47:42,050 --> 00:47:45,490
1683. And I mean, the Ottoman

759
00:47:45,490 --> 00:47:49,100
Empire basically got stalled at the gates of Europe with the

760
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:52,620
siege of Vienna in 1683, which was a miracle, by the way.

761
00:47:53,020 --> 00:47:56,740
A miracle that from the European perspective. This is what I mean

762
00:47:56,740 --> 00:48:00,580
by miracle. A miracle from the European perspective that if the Ottomans had been

763
00:48:00,580 --> 00:48:04,380
successful, our total entire world history would have been completely. Would have

764
00:48:04,380 --> 00:48:08,100
been completely different, would have looked completely different. But the only reason that the

765
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:11,740
Europeans were able to form that miracle, and to your

766
00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:15,580
point about the Cherokees being broken up into these four

767
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:19,750
federation pieces, the only reason

768
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:23,550
the European tribes at the sea at the siege of Vienna in

769
00:48:23,550 --> 00:48:27,350
1683 were actually able to get their crap together was because they united under

770
00:48:27,350 --> 00:48:31,030
one king. That's the only reason.

771
00:48:31,110 --> 00:48:34,870
But it took 1500 years from the decline of. The decline

772
00:48:34,870 --> 00:48:37,830
of the fall of the Roman empire to that point

773
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:42,150
for them to be able to put down their tribalism

774
00:48:42,390 --> 00:48:46,200
long enough to unite for literally five minutes,

775
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,640
by the way, and then go right back to beating the brakes off of each

776
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,880
other for another 200 years. Yeah, yeah.

777
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,000
So normally I would approach this point from that perspective,

778
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,200
but I'm going to approach this point, that point, the same point, but from the

779
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,880
minority or the minority report perspective.

780
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,520
When. And you see this when the

781
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,210
results of European warfare and

782
00:49:13,210 --> 00:49:16,850
war making land on other peoples in other

783
00:49:16,850 --> 00:49:20,490
continents who do not. Did not

784
00:49:20,490 --> 00:49:24,010
wind up at the same conclusions after going through that kind of

785
00:49:24,650 --> 00:49:28,410
human to human interaction, like in Africa,

786
00:49:29,450 --> 00:49:33,250
in Asia, in South America and in

787
00:49:33,250 --> 00:49:36,170
North America, those

788
00:49:36,970 --> 00:49:40,250
peoples look at the European way of engagement

789
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:44,990
as foreign. And I don't think we appreciate that

790
00:49:44,990 --> 00:49:48,630
enough, nearly enough as historians. I don't think historians make this point at all because

791
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:52,470
it's a counterpoint and a minority report point, and it has nothing to do

792
00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:56,310
with guilt or supremacy. I'm not talking about the supremacy of

793
00:49:56,550 --> 00:50:00,310
quote, unquote white people. I'm not talking about the supremacy of quote, unquote

794
00:50:00,310 --> 00:50:03,950
European thinking. I am merely saying that when the

795
00:50:03,950 --> 00:50:07,710
results of that thinking show up to other places in the world that have adopted

796
00:50:07,710 --> 00:50:11,410
other thinking, it is foreign to those other places. And

797
00:50:11,410 --> 00:50:13,050
we see that in this book.

798
00:50:14,970 --> 00:50:18,410
Red Cloud, even though he could

799
00:50:18,410 --> 00:50:21,690
negotiate the way in which the white

800
00:50:21,850 --> 00:50:25,530
settlers thought about him was still foreign to him.

801
00:50:26,410 --> 00:50:30,250
Yeah. Sitting Bull didn't even bother trying to get into

802
00:50:30,250 --> 00:50:34,050
their psychology until much later, after all the fighting

803
00:50:34,050 --> 00:50:36,930
was done. And Crazy Horse,

804
00:50:38,130 --> 00:50:41,290
I'm gonna say something right here. God bless that man. That dude was a warrior

805
00:50:41,290 --> 00:50:44,850
from the, from the jump, right? Like he.

806
00:50:45,330 --> 00:50:48,610
And, and just like a warrior, there's a whole incident that's, that's,

807
00:50:50,050 --> 00:50:53,890
that's put it, that, that's talked about in the book where he basically took

808
00:50:53,890 --> 00:50:57,690
somebody else's wife, the tribe that

809
00:50:57,690 --> 00:51:01,250
he shouldn't have. And it wound up, it wound up being a giant mess.

810
00:51:02,170 --> 00:51:04,210
And I thought you were gonna talk about, I thought you were gonna talk about

811
00:51:04,210 --> 00:51:07,690
the battle. Was it muddy river or.

812
00:51:08,090 --> 00:51:11,730
Oh, yeah, or was it muddy river, Greasy grass. Greasy grass where he

813
00:51:11,730 --> 00:51:15,490
takes, he puts his shirt on and he basically runs his horse right

814
00:51:15,490 --> 00:51:19,130
in front of everybody firing guns at him. I mean, this guy.

815
00:51:19,290 --> 00:51:22,930
And they all missed. Every one of them missed. So I mean,

816
00:51:22,930 --> 00:51:26,010
everybody else is like, yeah, he's invincible. We're gonna follow.

817
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:31,550
He's like, I'm invincible. Let me prove it. I'm gonna go run my horse in

818
00:51:31,550 --> 00:51:34,710
front of all these guns. And I'm not. And he did. How would it,

819
00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:38,390
how did that happen? Like, I still look at this today and I'm going,

820
00:51:39,350 --> 00:51:41,750
I think I would, I think I would have thought that guy was a God

821
00:51:41,750 --> 00:51:45,590
if that, if that happened today. And somebody in, in the middle of a war

822
00:51:45,590 --> 00:51:49,310
said, don't worry, I'll stand on that hill and I won't get hit. And they

823
00:51:49,310 --> 00:51:52,030
just stood up on the hill as everybody was firing guns at them. And they're

824
00:51:52,030 --> 00:51:55,870
like, see, they can't hit me. I'd have been like, effort. I'm beyond.

825
00:51:55,870 --> 00:51:59,670
I'm. Hey. He just said f around and find out in one. I'm going

826
00:51:59,670 --> 00:52:01,670
with that guy. Like, how did he.

827
00:52:03,430 --> 00:52:06,910
It's crazy to me that he was able to do stuff like that. But. And

828
00:52:06,910 --> 00:52:10,469
then, of course, like you said, he doesn't know what. We know today, and we

829
00:52:10,469 --> 00:52:14,310
know today that those guns are not exactly, are not exactly accurate. I

830
00:52:14,310 --> 00:52:17,950
mean, I mean, These are not 30 odd sixes with

831
00:52:17,950 --> 00:52:21,320
scopes on the front. No, no, they can hit a. They could hit a deer

832
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:25,040
at like, you know, 500 yards or whatever. These guns.

833
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,840
We know these guns are not exactly accurate. We know that today. They didn't know

834
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,320
that. They didn't know that. No. And that was, and that was the best

835
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,840
accuracy. I mean, give me a break. Like, come on. Like,

836
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:40,000
to your point earlier, we, we made this point earlier in another book that we

837
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,360
covered another episode. You know, you could fire arrows as fast as they could load

838
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:47,040
the breach loaders or faster. The Sharps carving.

839
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,560
I mean, I fired a Sharps before. Number one. Those guns are heavy.

840
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:54,440
People underestimate just how much they weigh. Good Lord. But then number two,

841
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:55,600
to your point about accuracy,

842
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,880
kind of not the best, but that's because we live in a time

843
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,160
when you have much more accurate weapons. Things have

844
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,640
improved. I was actually just breaking down some of my pistols the other day and

845
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,400
cleaning them. And yes, ladies and gentlemen, I

846
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,210
do own pistols, along with several other pieces of armament in my house, and

847
00:53:17,210 --> 00:53:20,690
you can also ask me about that later. But I was breaking it down and

848
00:53:20,690 --> 00:53:24,410
cleaning them and putting everything back together, and I was kind of.

849
00:53:24,410 --> 00:53:28,130
I'm always amazed at weapons technology. I am

850
00:53:28,130 --> 00:53:31,850
always amazed at weapons technology because the. The difference in

851
00:53:31,850 --> 00:53:35,370
accuracy between, you know, the.45 that my grandfather

852
00:53:35,370 --> 00:53:38,010
carried in World War II versus

853
00:53:38,650 --> 00:53:42,480
the.45 that we've got now is. I mean, they're

854
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,480
fundamentally the same weapon, but the accuracy is just

855
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,240
better. The materials technology is just better. Even.

856
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:53,520
Even the rounds are just better. Like, it's just

857
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,160
insane. And so when

858
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,320
you have a guy like Crazy Horse,

859
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,560
who, by the way, his actual name I love this is his horse is

860
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,360
crazy, not Crazy Horse. His horse is crazy. I love that

861
00:54:10,610 --> 00:54:11,810
when you have a guy like that,

862
00:54:16,450 --> 00:54:19,810
That guy is less concerned from a mindset perspective

863
00:54:20,450 --> 00:54:24,290
about what's going on in the enemy's mind. He doesn't care about

864
00:54:24,369 --> 00:54:27,890
that. He only cares about what he's going to do to the enemy.

865
00:54:28,210 --> 00:54:31,570
That's all he cares about. And by the way, you saw that in the whole

866
00:54:31,570 --> 00:54:35,340
incident with the woman and all of that and going

867
00:54:35,340 --> 00:54:38,620
back and forth, like, he wasn't worried about what that dude was gonna do. He

868
00:54:38,620 --> 00:54:41,940
was just like, yeah, I don't know. This woman's coming over here. This woman's gonna

869
00:54:41,940 --> 00:54:43,740
hear. We're gonna hang out. Okay,

870
00:54:45,340 --> 00:54:48,220
somebody. And. And if I had been advising him,

871
00:54:49,260 --> 00:54:52,940
I would have whispered in his ear, listen,

872
00:54:53,580 --> 00:54:55,500
listen. His horse is crazy. Listen.

873
00:54:57,340 --> 00:55:00,950
The enemy gets a vote. Just keep that in

874
00:55:00,950 --> 00:55:03,510
mind. The enemy gets a vote.

875
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:09,750
Yeah, but. But. But. That's the end of the but would have

876
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:13,510
been the whole thing after that. But you have to. So I. I'll bring.

877
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:17,230
I'll bring this back to modern days. Right? Like in business sense.

878
00:55:17,230 --> 00:55:20,710
Right. So. And. And by the way, as a. As a sales and marketing

879
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:24,190
consultant, I kind of have the same mentality as Crazy

880
00:55:24,190 --> 00:55:27,750
Horse to my clients sometimes. Sometimes. Because

881
00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:33,110
what do you care what they're doing? Like, why. Why do you get.

882
00:55:33,110 --> 00:55:36,630
Like, what if you are in direct competition with another

883
00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:40,230
company that is in the next town over? I'm just using an

884
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:43,910
example. But let's say I'm a plumber, and I'm. And I have a Plumber

885
00:55:43,990 --> 00:55:47,630
down the street. If you do what you

886
00:55:47,630 --> 00:55:51,350
do well enough and you. And you market yourself the right

887
00:55:51,350 --> 00:55:54,400
way, the right people are going to find you and you're going to do business.

888
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,360
What do you care what he's doing? Like, so the whole keeping up

889
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,160
with the Joneses thing is not a thing for me in advising

890
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,600
people in marketing. Right? Like, so, meaning, like, if that guy's doing all kinds of

891
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,120
Google Ads and YouTube ads and all this other stuff and he's doing

892
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,520
$3 million in revenue and he's spending money over

893
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,360
money over money to get that 3 million, and you're not

894
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,480
spending that kind of money, but you're still doing 3 million because you're finding the

895
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,940
right people, people at the right time under the right circumstances, then what do you

896
00:56:23,940 --> 00:56:27,740
care what he's doing? Like, why do you care? And then, like, to your point,

897
00:56:27,740 --> 00:56:31,260
like, the enemy gets a vote. Not in my scenario. That guy doesn't get a

898
00:56:31,260 --> 00:56:34,100
vote in what happens and what we do. That guy doesn't get a vote on

899
00:56:34,100 --> 00:56:37,260
how we proceed, our business model, or how we proceed with our business

900
00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:41,060
marketing, etc. Etc. He doesn't get a vote. He doesn't have to take up any

901
00:56:41,060 --> 00:56:44,780
of your mind space. And I think

902
00:56:44,780 --> 00:56:48,440
that that's some of those things that, like, I take from the

903
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:52,080
difference between leadership styles between Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull.

904
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,280
Crazy Horse, Crazy Horse's leadership style was,

905
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,880
I will do whatever it takes to prove to you that I am

906
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,520
worthy of you following me. And if that means jumping into the

907
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,000
fire, then I'll jump into the fire. If that means running into the. If you

908
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,680
want me to be first in battle, I'll be first in battle. Whereas Sitting

909
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,170
Bull was more in the lines of, here's my philosophy.

910
00:57:14,170 --> 00:57:17,890
I'm. I, I have a philosophical way of thinking of things. If you agree

911
00:57:17,890 --> 00:57:21,730
with that philosophy, then you should fight my fight for me. Right?

912
00:57:21,730 --> 00:57:24,810
Like, I don't need to be on the front line because we agree in the

913
00:57:24,810 --> 00:57:28,449
same. We, we believe in the same things. And because the,

914
00:57:28,450 --> 00:57:32,250
because you want to support that belief system, then you're gonna,

915
00:57:32,250 --> 00:57:35,050
you're a young man. You're gonna fight my fight for me, and I don't need

916
00:57:35,050 --> 00:57:38,450
to fight it because we share the same philosophy.

917
00:57:38,930 --> 00:57:42,600
Yeah, it was a philosophical difference in leadership stuff styles, but

918
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:46,280
both of them were very effective. Right. And you needed both of them. And this

919
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,800
is, this is the core point, I think, of the book, and it is the

920
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,400
core point of what we're talking about today in order to lead young men into

921
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,680
battle. In order to harness the energies of young men. I want to talk a

922
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,040
little bit about this in our next section here. But in order to, in order

923
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,560
to harness the energies of young men, you need both of those.

924
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,240
You need the, it's, it's a, it's a hammer and tongs. Right.

925
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,480
Impact. And, and if you don't have both of those. And

926
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,440
I, and I wrote in my notes, I mean, to your point about Sitting Bull,

927
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,840
he was much more inclined to be measured in thought.

928
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,120
He consulted with Wakatanka and he was

929
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:24,920
slow to act. But here's the but about City Bowl. This

930
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,720
is why I'm probably, I'm probably more City Bull than

931
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,320
I am Crazy Horse. But once that action was initiated,

932
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,670
like, he was all in. He was like, okay, we're in for penny, in for

933
00:58:36,670 --> 00:58:40,110
a pound, Longshanks, let's go. Let's go all the way to the Bitter end, whatever

934
00:58:40,110 --> 00:58:43,710
that end will be. And it's fine. Right? And so you do.

935
00:58:43,790 --> 00:58:47,590
I got a sense in reading this book and

936
00:58:47,590 --> 00:58:51,030
in the reporting, and I love how you framed it, the reporting of, the journalistic

937
00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:54,870
reporting of Mark Lee Gardner on this book. I got the sense that

938
00:58:54,870 --> 00:58:58,590
Sitting Bull understood he was in a tragic story. And he

939
00:58:58,590 --> 00:59:02,040
sort of was not fade

940
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,720
accompli, but he was sort of, and I don't say comfortable

941
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:07,480
either. He was.

942
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,560
Okay with letting it play out the way it was going to play out because

943
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,280
he knew what the clearing at the end of the path had to be.

944
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,050
And that is that. That doesn't make

945
00:59:26,050 --> 00:59:29,370
Sitting Bull tragic. Like, we tend to look at that through our lens where we

946
00:59:29,370 --> 00:59:33,090
want people to be heroic and we want the winner to, like,

947
00:59:33,490 --> 00:59:37,010
have the victory and screw over the enemy. And

948
00:59:38,130 --> 00:59:41,930
like I mentioned Marvel movies earlier, say some quip and then like,

949
00:59:41,930 --> 00:59:45,370
flip off of the back of the helicarrier or some damn

950
00:59:45,370 --> 00:59:48,370
nonsense that never happens in real life.

951
00:59:49,410 --> 00:59:53,090
What happens in real life is you make a

952
00:59:53,090 --> 00:59:56,890
decision. And we, I talked about

953
00:59:56,890 --> 01:00:00,610
this in World War I. I talked about this in war with by Sebastian

954
01:00:00,610 --> 01:00:03,890
Younger. But you make a decision and then you have to live with the

955
01:00:03,890 --> 01:00:07,729
consequences all the way to the end of whatever those consequences are.

956
01:00:07,729 --> 01:00:11,570
And don't get me wrong, we need crazy horses. For sure. We need those

957
01:00:11,570 --> 01:00:15,130
guys. Because I don't think Sitting

958
01:00:15,130 --> 01:00:18,860
Bull not. I don't think Sitting Bull couldn't have done the whole,

959
01:00:18,860 --> 01:00:22,540
like, rallying moral cry that Crazy Horse did. He

960
01:00:22,540 --> 01:00:26,180
couldn't. He couldn't have done that. He won, that guy. But he

961
01:00:26,180 --> 01:00:29,820
was the guy that could do what Crazy Horse couldn't, which is Walk

962
01:00:29,820 --> 01:00:33,620
that path all the way to its logical end. Even if that logical end

963
01:00:33,620 --> 01:00:37,300
meant his own death, which it did. And I think, I think he knew that.

964
01:00:37,300 --> 01:00:38,860
I don't think he was ignorant to that.

965
01:00:45,470 --> 01:00:49,270
Today's military structure, I mean we basically still have that right. The

966
01:00:49,270 --> 01:00:53,110
generals that, the generals that lead from behind that are more thought

967
01:00:53,110 --> 01:00:56,510
process, thought provoking and, and they absolutely think

968
01:00:56,990 --> 01:01:00,750
beyond the battlefield and what happens when this war is over.

969
01:01:00,829 --> 01:01:04,110
How do I engage, how do I, how do I look that.

970
01:01:04,350 --> 01:01:08,030
That other general in the eye after this war is over

971
01:01:08,110 --> 01:01:11,480
with honor and dignity and respect and

972
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:15,320
whereas if you think about Crazy Horse essentially like a lieutenant.

973
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,960
Right. Like a lieutenant is on the battlefield with the troops and he's gonna

974
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,800
rally the guys from a energy standpoint, not necessarily

975
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:26,559
from a philosophical standpoint. I think we have the same kind

976
01:01:26,559 --> 01:01:30,360
of structure today. We just. You just call them different things. Like. Right. It's

977
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,560
like. Yeah, because again even like as like

978
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:37,480
advisors and you know, Sitting Bull had gall and like there was

979
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,120
other, there's other people that, that were like the in between

980
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,080
of, of Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull, almost like a melding of the two where

981
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:48,720
Gaul would be perfectly okay jumping to battle. But he wanted to understand first and

982
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:52,600
make sure that he had Sitting Bull's best interest in mind. So we

983
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,320
have colonels and captains or whatever. Like, like I think we still have all that

984
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,960
structure as we just call them. We have the more organized now. Yeah,

985
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:03,450
like there's more, it's just more. There's more like

986
01:02:03,450 --> 01:02:07,090
literal structure to it versus having this open ended kind

987
01:02:07,090 --> 01:02:10,370
of. All right, we're like Crazy Horse is crazy. We're just going to let him

988
01:02:10,370 --> 01:02:12,450
go do his thing, but we're going to pick up the slack on the back

989
01:02:12,450 --> 01:02:15,330
end whenever whatever that happens in that battle. We know that we're going to have

990
01:02:15,330 --> 01:02:19,130
to have some sort of communication and kind of sit down

991
01:02:19,130 --> 01:02:22,690
with what like so it was looser

992
01:02:22,690 --> 01:02:26,330
and, but, and, and I know I'm kind of categorizing it

993
01:02:26,890 --> 01:02:30,720
the, the way that we would modern militaries, but yeah, I mean, let's

994
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,360
face it, that's how it worked. Like. Well, I mean, and

995
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:38,360
well in the ruthlessness of. Hierarchies is everywhere in human society.

996
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,800
It's everywhere every time. It's one of those, again, one of those human things.

997
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:46,040
Hierarchies are ruthless. And whether your hierarchy

998
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,720
is loose or your hierarchy is tight, whether

999
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:53,440
your hierarchy is informalized or whether it is formalized, it doesn't

1000
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,770
matter. Hierarchies are part of reality. And

1001
01:02:57,010 --> 01:03:00,490
in our Time I opened up with talking about the

1002
01:03:00,490 --> 01:03:04,250
egalitarianism, which is this idea that. That men

1003
01:03:04,250 --> 01:03:05,570
and women are interchangeable.

1004
01:03:12,130 --> 01:03:15,090
In the. In the. In the case of warfare. Right.

1005
01:03:15,410 --> 01:03:19,250
Historically speaking, men and women have not been interchangeable. And

1006
01:03:19,250 --> 01:03:22,770
by the way, male hierarchies and female hierarchies are different.

1007
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,000
They are fundamentally different. And if you want

1008
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,640
to execute a war successfully, you

1009
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:34,320
have to know what kind of hierarchy you are

1010
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,080
in and what kind of hierarchy you are commanding.

1011
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,400
And that's just it. You just have to know, and you have

1012
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,760
to respect that hierarchy and not try to violate it or

1013
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,120
reshape it because of some

1014
01:03:49,730 --> 01:03:53,570
ideological position that doesn't match. That's fine in a time of peace.

1015
01:03:53,570 --> 01:03:56,690
It's fine to hold all the ideological positions that you want to hold in a

1016
01:03:56,690 --> 01:04:00,050
time of peace. That's fine. But when it comes to the point, the inflection point,

1017
01:04:00,050 --> 01:04:02,890
such as it were, where we're actually going to get down to this now, we

1018
01:04:02,890 --> 01:04:06,450
got to move past ideology. We have to move into. We have to move into

1019
01:04:06,450 --> 01:04:10,090
something else. Case in point. This is the section from the book that I want

1020
01:04:10,090 --> 01:04:13,930
to read. So this is from the Earth is All that Lasts. This is

1021
01:04:13,930 --> 01:04:17,060
a chapter on the invasion of Good Horse Grass country.

1022
01:04:18,740 --> 01:04:22,260
And this was a quote from Fanny Kelly.

1023
01:04:23,220 --> 01:04:26,100
And. And Fanny Kelly was a

1024
01:04:27,460 --> 01:04:30,820
captive of the. Of the Lakotas,

1025
01:04:31,540 --> 01:04:33,860
and she was.

1026
01:04:35,540 --> 01:04:39,180
She had been captured by the Oglalas near Fort Laramie on July

1027
01:04:39,180 --> 01:04:42,980
12 and was traded to a Hunkpapa

1028
01:04:42,980 --> 01:04:46,410
named Brings Plenty. And she was with

1029
01:04:46,490 --> 01:04:50,130
the. She was with the. The Hunkpapa

1030
01:04:50,130 --> 01:04:53,770
for. For quite some time. And she.

1031
01:04:57,290 --> 01:05:01,050
She actually wrote to. She was used as an interpreter between

1032
01:05:01,050 --> 01:05:04,330
the. The Hunkpapa and the white settlers

1033
01:05:06,010 --> 01:05:09,610
who were leading a wagon train into, um. Into the. Into

1034
01:05:09,610 --> 01:05:13,250
the. Into territory that basically they didn't. They didn't belong in, quite frankly.

1035
01:05:13,810 --> 01:05:17,410
And. And so she tried to

1036
01:05:17,410 --> 01:05:21,250
manipulate the negotiations because, of course, you know,

1037
01:05:21,570 --> 01:05:25,330
she. She. The. The. The native tribes thought that she was. She was going

1038
01:05:25,330 --> 01:05:28,690
to engage in good faith. She was not trying to engage in good faith. She

1039
01:05:28,690 --> 01:05:31,650
was trying to get the heck away from them and get back. To get back

1040
01:05:31,650 --> 01:05:34,210
to her family. And.

1041
01:05:35,980 --> 01:05:39,740
And it wound up being a Pyrrhic victory for the Hunkpapas

1042
01:05:39,740 --> 01:05:43,460
because they prevented the emigrant train from preventing.

1043
01:05:43,460 --> 01:05:46,620
From penetrating farther into Lakota lands. They had made them go home,

1044
01:05:47,020 --> 01:05:50,860
but at an incredible loss of life. Right. And Kelly

1045
01:05:50,860 --> 01:05:52,300
later on was.

1046
01:05:55,660 --> 01:05:59,500
Wrote a book on her experiences, and Gardner references this book, which I

1047
01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:02,870
find to be very interesting, by the way, book on her

1048
01:06:02,870 --> 01:06:06,670
experiences As a Sioux captive and, and he

1049
01:06:06,670 --> 01:06:10,430
says this, although with the Ogalas along, although with the

1050
01:06:10,430 --> 01:06:14,150
Oglalas and then the HunkPapas for only five months, she witnessed nearly

1051
01:06:14,150 --> 01:06:17,950
everything that touched their daily lives. She even learned some of the Lakota language.

1052
01:06:19,790 --> 01:06:23,630
And she did come to understand what drove them beyond the

1053
01:06:23,630 --> 01:06:26,470
basic need to survive. And this is the quote here that gets to what I

1054
01:06:26,470 --> 01:06:29,210
want to talk about today. This is the core of it. The youth are very

1055
01:06:29,210 --> 01:06:32,850
fond of war. They have no other ambition and pants for the

1056
01:06:32,850 --> 01:06:36,410
glory of battle, longing for the notes of the war song that they may rush

1057
01:06:36,410 --> 01:06:39,770
in and win the feathers of a brave. They listen to the stories of the

1058
01:06:39,770 --> 01:06:43,210
old men as they recall the stirring scenes of their youth or sing their war

1059
01:06:43,210 --> 01:06:46,730
songs which form only a boasting recapitulation of their

1060
01:06:46,730 --> 01:06:50,210
daring and bravery. They yearn for the glory of war,

1061
01:06:50,450 --> 01:06:53,820
which is the only path to distinction. Close

1062
01:06:53,820 --> 01:06:57,580
quote. Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse would

1063
01:06:57,580 --> 01:06:58,700
not disagree.

1064
01:07:02,780 --> 01:07:05,260
Paths to distinction for young men

1065
01:07:05,900 --> 01:07:09,699
historically have been limited. A woman becomes

1066
01:07:09,699 --> 01:07:13,460
a woman when she first menstrates because now she can have babies

1067
01:07:13,460 --> 01:07:16,780
and create life. That's when a woman becomes a woman. But for a man

1068
01:07:18,220 --> 01:07:21,940
to become a man. Tom knows this and I

1069
01:07:21,940 --> 01:07:25,580
know this. Yeah, it's a different thing. That's a long

1070
01:07:26,220 --> 01:07:30,060
process. And in our modern society we've sort

1071
01:07:30,060 --> 01:07:33,860
of pooh poohed that and we're now entering and I'm seeing a lot of

1072
01:07:33,860 --> 01:07:37,580
elite commentators and people smarter than me talking about the male crisis

1073
01:07:37,580 --> 01:07:41,260
now. And occasionally this will pop up once every few

1074
01:07:41,260 --> 01:07:44,780
years. But now it seems to have like sharpened to a point

1075
01:07:46,540 --> 01:07:50,340
because in a post industrial society where manufacturing is not

1076
01:07:50,340 --> 01:07:53,900
a thing, less than 5% of people are farmers

1077
01:07:53,980 --> 01:07:57,660
in any sort of fashion. Most farming is done by industrial,

1078
01:07:57,660 --> 01:08:00,220
large industrial outfits now where

1079
01:08:01,260 --> 01:08:04,900
military service is less than 1% of the available male population in the

1080
01:08:04,900 --> 01:08:08,620
United States and where the vast majority of

1081
01:08:08,620 --> 01:08:12,050
men are going to be shuffled into, for good or ill, white

1082
01:08:12,050 --> 01:08:15,850
collar jobs where the opportunities

1083
01:08:15,850 --> 01:08:16,570
for glory.

1084
01:08:20,810 --> 01:08:23,930
There aren't a whole lot of opportunities for glory. When you're sending an email,

1085
01:08:27,610 --> 01:08:31,170
there just aren't. There's no way to make that sex. Isn't that where.

1086
01:08:31,170 --> 01:08:35,010
Isn't that what we've replaced sports with? Like,

1087
01:08:35,010 --> 01:08:38,530
isn't there. Aren't sports supposed to take over some of that?

1088
01:08:39,170 --> 01:08:42,890
Sports are, but we forget. So you. Let's, let's have an honest talk

1089
01:08:42,890 --> 01:08:45,010
about men for just a minute. Tom,

1090
01:08:47,170 --> 01:08:50,890
you played sports and I played sports. Now I didn't

1091
01:08:50,890 --> 01:08:54,690
play sports until I was into my 20s because as a Teenager.

1092
01:08:55,250 --> 01:08:59,090
I was not going to be keel hauled into

1093
01:08:59,090 --> 01:09:02,290
something that I didn't care about. I just wasn't.

1094
01:09:02,770 --> 01:09:06,620
The, the, the line of rebellion had already been established by

1095
01:09:06,620 --> 01:09:10,460
that point. And I just wasn't going to do anything that I didn't, I didn't

1096
01:09:10,460 --> 01:09:14,180
want to do. And so I did not play sports

1097
01:09:15,300 --> 01:09:18,820
when I got involved in martial arts towards the end of my high school years.

1098
01:09:19,140 --> 01:09:22,620
And that kept on going into my 20s. But I didn't start really playing an

1099
01:09:22,620 --> 01:09:26,420
organized sport of any kind until I was in my 20s. And

1100
01:09:26,420 --> 01:09:30,120
when I was in college. You played football, you coached football.

1101
01:09:31,480 --> 01:09:35,240
I presume that started fairly young for you because most people do when

1102
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:39,000
they do football. Nothing wrong with that. And

1103
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:43,720
we all knew, you and I both knew guys who

1104
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:48,320
wouldn't catch a ball if you paid them, they just

1105
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:50,440
wouldn't do it. They're not interested.

1106
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,600
And so while I appreciate that sports does exist as an

1107
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:59,260
outlet, I mean, I've got my own both. All my kids have done sports in

1108
01:09:59,260 --> 01:10:02,100
one form or another. All my kids did sports in one form or another.

1109
01:10:03,460 --> 01:10:06,980
I think we've entered this weird sort of post modern, post

1110
01:10:06,980 --> 01:10:10,820
industrial landscape where the choices are so broad that

1111
01:10:10,900 --> 01:10:14,420
if young men don't want to do it, their parents aren't pushing them to do

1112
01:10:14,420 --> 01:10:17,460
it. Now the ones who are being pushed obviously are the ones we see who

1113
01:10:17,460 --> 01:10:18,580
do it. But.

1114
01:10:23,950 --> 01:10:26,630
I'm shocking my shoulders, by the way, on the video. Folks like you can't see

1115
01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:30,190
that because this is. Just listen to the audio on the audio.

1116
01:10:30,270 --> 01:10:33,830
But like, what do you do for all those. How do, here's, here's a big

1117
01:10:33,830 --> 01:10:36,710
question and it is a question of our time. How do you channel the energies

1118
01:10:36,710 --> 01:10:40,510
of young men so that they can get distinctions if the vast majority of them,

1119
01:10:41,150 --> 01:10:44,910
if the paths to distinction are

1120
01:10:44,910 --> 01:10:48,750
not what they used to be? How do you do that? Because that

1121
01:10:48,750 --> 01:10:52,300
is the penultimate question of our time. And that was something that really jumped out

1122
01:10:52,300 --> 01:10:56,100
to me in this book was the path to distinction for warrior young men

1123
01:10:56,580 --> 01:11:00,300
like the young men here, the Lakota young men. I could have

1124
01:11:00,300 --> 01:11:03,580
picked up those young men and put them in the Coringal Valley in Afghanistan and

1125
01:11:03,580 --> 01:11:06,900
they would have done exactly the same thing. Yeah,

1126
01:11:07,620 --> 01:11:10,980
I could have given them a 50 cal or I could have given them,

1127
01:11:11,140 --> 01:11:14,900
I, I could have put them on the boats in Normandy.

1128
01:11:15,060 --> 01:11:18,280
They would have done exactly the same thing. I could have put them

1129
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:22,280
in, in, in French

1130
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:26,040
Indochina at, you know, Dien Bien Phu.

1131
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,000
Right. Or, and in the, in the, the,

1132
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:33,399
what do you call it? The Idrang Valley. During Vietnam

1133
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:36,960
I could have put them in, in, in, in, in

1134
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:40,720
Korea. They were literally. It's the exact same kind

1135
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:44,510
of dude. They're looking for dist. Extinction. And the only way they

1136
01:11:44,510 --> 01:11:46,110
know how to do this is through

1137
01:11:48,270 --> 01:11:51,630
fighting war and counting coup and scalping and

1138
01:11:52,030 --> 01:11:54,870
getting involved. And the way that he describes the battles is just kind of amazing.

1139
01:11:54,870 --> 01:11:58,390
That part to me was exhilarating. Like they're getting up after it. Like you've got

1140
01:11:58,390 --> 01:12:02,110
these cavalry boys and they were boys, like 15 to 22 year old

1141
01:12:02,110 --> 01:12:05,750
boys battling with these, with these tribal

1142
01:12:05,750 --> 01:12:09,270
warriors who are also probably their exact same age. And they're getting

1143
01:12:09,350 --> 01:12:12,790
after it. They're looking for distinction. They're not out there by accident.

1144
01:12:13,910 --> 01:12:17,630
The question of our time is what do we do with our

1145
01:12:17,630 --> 01:12:20,990
young men now? Because they have the same energies. That hasn't gone

1146
01:12:20,990 --> 01:12:24,390
anywhere. I was just about to say

1147
01:12:25,030 --> 01:12:28,710
that's where I think I may differ with you a little bit.

1148
01:12:28,870 --> 01:12:32,550
I'm not sure they have the same energies. I'm not

1149
01:12:32,550 --> 01:12:36,190
100% convinced. I think we do. I

1150
01:12:36,190 --> 01:12:39,950
think, I think it's, it's, it has started from such a

1151
01:12:39,950 --> 01:12:43,670
young age going like, think about parents today.

1152
01:12:43,830 --> 01:12:46,310
And, and by the way, you might even

1153
01:12:47,430 --> 01:12:50,870
not purposefully done it, but think about.

1154
01:12:51,270 --> 01:12:54,830
Because I know you have some kids with some drastic age differences. Oh

1155
01:12:54,830 --> 01:12:58,550
yeah, Think of, think of both of those two kids when they were a year

1156
01:12:58,550 --> 01:13:02,070
or two years old, were. Did you interact with them

1157
01:13:02,070 --> 01:13:05,870
differently? The answer is yes, right? Like whether

1158
01:13:05,870 --> 01:13:09,470
you meant to or not. Because, because I

1159
01:13:09,470 --> 01:13:13,070
think there's, there is.

1160
01:13:13,070 --> 01:13:16,910
A. There'S a

1161
01:13:16,910 --> 01:13:20,710
feeling about it, I guess like from our generation looking

1162
01:13:20,790 --> 01:13:24,230
at, at these kids being born today and these young

1163
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:29,600
males, to your point. And we're trying to

1164
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:33,440
equalize everything so much that it's

1165
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:36,880
not just about, it's not simply, it's not simply just about

1166
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:40,840
lifting girls, little girls up into thinking they can be whatever they want

1167
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:43,280
and do whatever they want. Which by the way, I totally agree with. I think

1168
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:46,160
if whatever they want to do in their life, go for it. I have no

1169
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:49,920
problem with a woman having ambitions of whatever.

1170
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,320
But it's not simply that. It's. We're also taking

1171
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:57,840
young boys and saying slow you roll there, buddy.

1172
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:02,880
Like so we're trying to suppress some of that from such a young age

1173
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:06,480
that by the time they get to teenagers, I don't think they have that

1174
01:14:06,480 --> 01:14:10,160
fight in them, to be honest. I see a lot of teenagers today,

1175
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:13,360
male teenagers did.

1176
01:14:15,440 --> 01:14:19,120
I mean it's hard to, it's really hard to explain because

1177
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:22,880
they also, they don't go through the same trials and tribulations that we went through

1178
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:26,650
either, like you growing up or me growing up in the neighborhood that I

1179
01:14:26,650 --> 01:14:30,410
did. I, I don't know if. I don't know if my kids

1180
01:14:30,410 --> 01:14:34,210
would have even survived that, never mind younger than them. Because

1181
01:14:35,810 --> 01:14:39,290
were, Were you bullied as a kid? Oh, yeah. Damn

1182
01:14:39,290 --> 01:14:42,330
skippy you were. Oh yeah, for sure. Did you, did you figure out how to

1183
01:14:42,330 --> 01:14:45,890
deal with that bully on your own terms? You did? Yes.

1184
01:14:46,850 --> 01:14:50,690
Did that bullying you become best friends? Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes yes,

1185
01:14:50,690 --> 01:14:54,500
sometimes no. Some. Because sometimes once you figure out the bully isn't really

1186
01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:57,300
what he thinks he is, now you have to figure out, do you actually like

1187
01:14:57,300 --> 01:15:01,140
him as a person? Like, that's different. Right? So, yeah, but like, but we had

1188
01:15:01,140 --> 01:15:04,940
to deal with all that. I'm sorry, but like 5 year olds today getting

1189
01:15:04,940 --> 01:15:08,540
bullied, their parents step in so fast and they try to figure that out for

1190
01:15:08,540 --> 01:15:12,300
them. I, I just think that there's. I don't know if they have the fight

1191
01:15:12,300 --> 01:15:15,340
in them. I. You're saying that you think the fight's there, they just don't know

1192
01:15:15,340 --> 01:15:18,460
what to do with it. I'm saying I don't know the fight's still there,

1193
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:24,560
that the fight's not there anymore. That's what I'm concerned. And maybe my perception is,

1194
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:28,160
is colored because what are we, an

1195
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,840
hour, we're an hour in on our conversation or 15 minutes in.

1196
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:33,360
So now it's time to bring up Jiu Jitsu.

1197
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:39,040
But like, maybe, maybe my perception is colored because

1198
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,800
I do see young men in

1199
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:47,490
the Jiu Jitsu classes that I coach. I do see young men

1200
01:15:47,490 --> 01:15:50,690
when I coach soccer or other sports.

1201
01:15:51,170 --> 01:15:54,770
Now I will say this. The majority of young

1202
01:15:54,770 --> 01:15:58,610
women in those places has increased in the

1203
01:15:58,610 --> 01:16:02,370
years that I've been an adult. And the number of young men

1204
01:16:02,450 --> 01:16:06,290
in those places has decreased as I have become.

1205
01:16:06,370 --> 01:16:09,890
Right. So I will say that to your point about the energies.

1206
01:16:10,940 --> 01:16:13,900
Well, think of this for a second. Hold on one second. Hey, son, just to

1207
01:16:13,900 --> 01:16:17,740
add fuel to that fire, take a sport like football like you talked

1208
01:16:17,740 --> 01:16:21,260
about. I played football. We had no qualms whatsoever about

1209
01:16:21,260 --> 01:16:24,180
running at each other full speed and smacking the crap out of each other. Right.

1210
01:16:24,180 --> 01:16:27,780
For sure now, but now they're like they are. They're

1211
01:16:27,780 --> 01:16:31,500
basically trying to replace full contact split football

1212
01:16:31,500 --> 01:16:34,140
with flag football until they hit high school.

1213
01:16:35,830 --> 01:16:39,190
Like there's a lot, there's a lot of movement. Saying that that type of physical

1214
01:16:39,190 --> 01:16:43,030
activity at that age disrupts the mind. It has a

1215
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:46,830
lot of detrimental effect into the maturity of the brain. There's a

1216
01:16:46,830 --> 01:16:50,590
lot of, they're doing a lot of studies of saying like combat sports, whether it's

1217
01:16:50,590 --> 01:16:54,230
football or martial arts, there's a direct link between those

1218
01:16:54,230 --> 01:16:57,590
sports and a decline of cognitive thought processes later in life.

1219
01:16:58,070 --> 01:17:01,870
So again, whether I agree with it or not is not that the, not the

1220
01:17:01,870 --> 01:17:05,590
statement here, but I'm just saying to your point, with the decrease in, in men

1221
01:17:05,590 --> 01:17:09,430
in those sport, you're seeing, you're also seeing a decrease in full

1222
01:17:09,430 --> 01:17:13,030
contact football, full contact rugby, full contact,

1223
01:17:13,030 --> 01:17:15,590
all these things. Like you're seeing a decrease in it because

1224
01:17:17,270 --> 01:17:20,150
my, my son, my son who by the way is 26 and I'm going to

1225
01:17:20,150 --> 01:17:23,750
quote him here, so again, don't vilify me. These are not

1226
01:17:23,750 --> 01:17:27,460
my words. My son basically calls it the wussification of the,

1227
01:17:27,460 --> 01:17:30,660
of America. Like he basically says that we're basically

1228
01:17:30,660 --> 01:17:34,420
wussifying all of our, all of our, all of the male

1229
01:17:34,420 --> 01:17:38,180
testosterone driven, male ego, male. All the stuff that you're talking

1230
01:17:38,180 --> 01:17:41,900
about that these Lakota warriors had. We're basically trying

1231
01:17:42,060 --> 01:17:45,500
to, we're purposefully trying to remove it from the equation.

1232
01:17:46,460 --> 01:17:48,980
Okay, So I think that, that, I think that that has a, I think that

1233
01:17:48,980 --> 01:17:52,820
that is a, that is going to be to our detriment long

1234
01:17:52,820 --> 01:17:56,660
term maybe because as

1235
01:17:56,660 --> 01:18:00,100
I said in the opening, in other

1236
01:18:00,100 --> 01:18:01,300
parts of the world,

1237
01:18:05,140 --> 01:18:07,860
reorganized military parts of the world

1238
01:18:08,820 --> 01:18:12,420
where we keep going, not we keep. Where we have recently

1239
01:18:12,900 --> 01:18:16,540
decided that we're going to reduce the level of adventuring

1240
01:18:16,540 --> 01:18:18,340
that we do in those spaces.

1241
01:18:23,150 --> 01:18:26,790
The people who are still there, the

1242
01:18:26,790 --> 01:18:28,990
people who are still doing the killing

1243
01:18:30,430 --> 01:18:32,670
are to a person,

1244
01:18:34,270 --> 01:18:34,670
men,

1245
01:18:37,870 --> 01:18:41,630
and they're not old men. So one of the

1246
01:18:41,630 --> 01:18:45,430
things that if you look back in history, the Greeks and the Romans

1247
01:18:45,430 --> 01:18:47,950
did really well, which I think we don't do well in our society.

1248
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:53,240
They did really did conscription really well. And the Greeks and

1249
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:56,800
the Romans, like Socrates. Okay, Socrates. No,

1250
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:00,480
Plato. Plato. It was Plato. Was it Plato? It was

1251
01:19:00,480 --> 01:19:03,120
Aristotle. It was Plato. It was one of those, one of the big three philosophers.

1252
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:06,120
I think it was Plato. All y' all could correct me later on, but he

1253
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:09,320
actually served in a Greek hoplite. So the

1254
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:13,000
hoplite was basically the Greek version of infantry. It was,

1255
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:17,030
it was the Greek version of these tribal

1256
01:19:17,030 --> 01:19:20,630
warriors. It was the Greek version of the 7th Cavalry. He

1257
01:19:20,710 --> 01:19:24,110
served in that all the way into his 40s, 50s and

1258
01:19:24,110 --> 01:19:27,910
60s. So from the age of 15 or

1259
01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:30,390
whenever you first got into a hoplite, I think it's probably younger than that, but

1260
01:19:30,390 --> 01:19:34,070
let's say 15 all the way almost to death. He

1261
01:19:34,070 --> 01:19:37,710
served the Roman Empire the way Rome worked. At

1262
01:19:37,710 --> 01:19:41,510
least at the height of its, of the Republic. And then in the transition to

1263
01:19:41,510 --> 01:19:45,300
the Empire, the way Rome worked was you had to serve as a

1264
01:19:45,300 --> 01:19:48,980
soldier for 20 years in the Roman Empire before you could be booted

1265
01:19:48,980 --> 01:19:52,500
out. And you would get land and a wife. They would give you those two

1266
01:19:52,500 --> 01:19:55,780
things and tell you, go away, right? This is the whole, like subplot of

1267
01:19:55,780 --> 01:19:59,020
Gladiator, right? Like this is the whole thing he's trying to get back to, right?

1268
01:19:59,020 --> 01:20:02,660
But it's true. I mean, there's, there's historical truth to this, right? And those guys

1269
01:20:02,660 --> 01:20:05,740
would literally serve for 20 years in the Roman

1270
01:20:05,980 --> 01:20:09,640
army in going around conquering people and

1271
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:13,440
getting their butts kicked too, like by the Germans and the Gauls and everybody else,

1272
01:20:13,440 --> 01:20:16,760
right? Actually, I just said the same thing twice. But like

1273
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:20,440
they went off and made trouble, right, In a whole bunch of different places, right?

1274
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:24,040
Spain, Germany, France, everywhere. Right.

1275
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:30,000
And as the empire expanded, the thing fell apart when you

1276
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:33,760
began inviting people who weren't exactly on

1277
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:37,550
the same ideological front framework as the Romans to fight the

1278
01:20:37,550 --> 01:20:41,110
wars. Because to the point now that we have, Roman

1279
01:20:41,590 --> 01:20:45,230
men declined and were unwilling to go into the Roman

1280
01:20:45,230 --> 01:20:45,750
army.

1281
01:20:49,190 --> 01:20:52,070
Fast forward 2500 years to now,

1282
01:20:54,230 --> 01:20:58,070
and I think there is cause for concern and I'm

1283
01:20:58,070 --> 01:21:00,710
going to use a big public example, case in point,

1284
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:07,840
just to anchor this in our time. Europe has a war

1285
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,680
on its border between Russia and the Ukraine, right?

1286
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:15,760
And one of the things that the EU keeps agitating for,

1287
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:19,520
Zelensky actually brought this up. The Prime Minister of the Ukraine brought this up. Oh,

1288
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:23,240
gosh, probably nine months ago, he ran over to

1289
01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:26,480
England after being summarily booted from the White House.

1290
01:21:27,130 --> 01:21:29,290
A significantly less cordial

1291
01:21:31,770 --> 01:21:35,290
interaction than he had been used to previously from Joe Biden or

1292
01:21:35,370 --> 01:21:39,050
somebody in Joe Biden's administration. He went back to England and

1293
01:21:39,210 --> 01:21:42,330
he met with Kara Starmer, who's the UK Prime Minister.

1294
01:21:43,050 --> 01:21:46,730
And what came out of that meeting was

1295
01:21:46,730 --> 01:21:50,410
the idea, Zielinski floated this idea, that the modern

1296
01:21:50,410 --> 01:21:54,060
European Union, who has even fewer

1297
01:21:54,060 --> 01:21:57,220
young men that have participated in war than we do,

1298
01:21:59,540 --> 01:22:03,300
should have its own European army that

1299
01:22:03,300 --> 01:22:06,420
could go, could be deployed into the Ukraine to fight the Russians.

1300
01:22:06,500 --> 01:22:10,300
Zelensky proposed this and he floated this idea. And

1301
01:22:10,300 --> 01:22:14,060
as most ideas are floated with politicians or public policymakers, he

1302
01:22:14,060 --> 01:22:17,300
floated it as a test just to see what the public would say. And of

1303
01:22:17,300 --> 01:22:20,790
course there was round rejection from all corners of the Internet and then it disappeared.

1304
01:22:22,060 --> 01:22:25,740
My question about that was, which European young man

1305
01:22:25,740 --> 01:22:29,380
are you going to get to Fight for Europe. Because

1306
01:22:29,380 --> 01:22:32,700
the only people you could potentially staff that army with

1307
01:22:34,060 --> 01:22:35,900
are the Muslim immigrants

1308
01:22:39,340 --> 01:22:43,180
who are coming over to places like London

1309
01:22:43,500 --> 01:22:46,980
and Berlin and Barcelona and

1310
01:22:46,980 --> 01:22:50,500
Paris. They seem to be very

1311
01:22:50,980 --> 01:22:54,620
energized. They seem to have a lot of young male energy. They

1312
01:22:54,620 --> 01:22:58,380
seem to be really interested in fighting and they seem to be

1313
01:22:58,380 --> 01:23:02,180
motivated to fight for something. Now, of course, this couldn't possibly

1314
01:23:02,180 --> 01:23:05,740
work out terribly for you the way it worked out for the Romans and to.

1315
01:23:05,740 --> 01:23:08,820
Prove their worth to a new country. That's the other part of it too that

1316
01:23:08,820 --> 01:23:12,420
they, that I think is, well. And even there I would question their loyalties to

1317
01:23:12,420 --> 01:23:15,600
the new country. But sure, let's throw that in as well, because maybe,

1318
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:19,320
maybe this won't be like the Ostrogoths and the Roman

1319
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:22,160
Empire. Maybe this won't work out that way.

1320
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:27,280
Except maybe it will. No, but there, there's,

1321
01:23:27,360 --> 01:23:31,080
but there's a, there's a pathway to citizenship there. As, as is in the

1322
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:34,720
United States. You have people immigrating here. They serve in our military and it's a

1323
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:38,560
path to, it's a path to citizenship.

1324
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:42,560
Right? And the people who serve in the military in the

1325
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:46,320
United States as a pathway to citizenship already fundamentally

1326
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:49,960
believe, like the Mexicans already fundamentally

1327
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:53,720
believe if you talk to them, that North America was theirs

1328
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:57,120
anyway. We're just all, we're just, we're just.

1329
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:00,480
Historically this is what la raza is, the race, right? They just take the extreme

1330
01:24:00,480 --> 01:24:04,240
version of this idea. We're just sewing back what was already

1331
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:07,280
ours. So for them it's like whatever.

1332
01:24:08,010 --> 01:24:11,730
Also you have people who serve in the military as a path

1333
01:24:11,730 --> 01:24:15,450
to citizenship who, because our military is all

1334
01:24:15,450 --> 01:24:19,290
volunteer and not conscription based. Okay? Not draft based.

1335
01:24:19,930 --> 01:24:23,529
Because of that. Those young men are self

1336
01:24:23,529 --> 01:24:27,010
selecting into that thing. Right? What the

1337
01:24:27,010 --> 01:24:30,770
European Union was talking about and what was floated with Zelensky was

1338
01:24:30,770 --> 01:24:34,490
a conscription force. Because no one is, not no one, when

1339
01:24:34,730 --> 01:24:38,250
very, very, very, very few, like a

1340
01:24:38,250 --> 01:24:41,810
microscopic percentage of European young

1341
01:24:41,810 --> 01:24:45,530
men from any of those countries are self selecting into any, even

1342
01:24:45,530 --> 01:24:49,090
the nation state militaries. Very few young men are self

1343
01:24:49,090 --> 01:24:52,930
selecting in self selection hasn't worked. So they're going to have to call a

1344
01:24:52,930 --> 01:24:55,930
draft. They're going to have to do conscription and guess who they're going to conscript.

1345
01:24:56,170 --> 01:24:59,130
Okay? I say all that to say this.

1346
01:25:03,060 --> 01:25:05,940
God forbid we have to fight a nation state war

1347
01:25:07,460 --> 01:25:11,260
against another country. I don't want to pick on Russia because that's too easy and

1348
01:25:11,260 --> 01:25:15,060
I want to pick on China because that's even easier, but God forbid we

1349
01:25:15,060 --> 01:25:18,260
have to fight A nation state war against someone. India. Let's just pick them.

1350
01:25:21,460 --> 01:25:25,100
The only country in the entire world that has never once declared war against

1351
01:25:25,100 --> 01:25:28,140
another country. Country, sure. I'm gonna pick on India.

1352
01:25:29,020 --> 01:25:31,500
All right. For this thought. For this thought experiment.

1353
01:25:32,620 --> 01:25:36,140
Yeah. We're talking fantasy world. Go ahead. We are talking fantasy world. We're not talking

1354
01:25:36,140 --> 01:25:38,780
about the world we live in. We're talking about another world, an alternate universe.

1355
01:25:40,780 --> 01:25:44,220
Where are we, where are we going to find the energies if the energies of

1356
01:25:44,220 --> 01:25:47,100
the young men don't exist? Where are we going to find the energies?

1357
01:25:48,780 --> 01:25:50,540
You're going to tell me that young women are going to do it?

1358
01:25:53,110 --> 01:25:55,750
I mean, you don't know. Hey, son, come on, stop. You don't know. Maybe.

1359
01:26:00,150 --> 01:26:03,990
I am too old and I've lived too long in the world to be fooled.

1360
01:26:07,510 --> 01:26:10,310
Yeah. And I'm not. And I'm not making. I want to be very clear. I'm

1361
01:26:10,310 --> 01:26:13,070
not making a right wing argument or left wing argument. This is not about wings.

1362
01:26:13,070 --> 01:26:16,230
This is not about politics. This is just a reality of a situation.

1363
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:20,400
Right. And if we did pick an actual nation state actor who might

1364
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:22,400
actually make trouble like China,

1365
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:28,080
they got a 200 million man army and it's men, it

1366
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:31,880
ain't women. And they've got men who were. They've got young men who

1367
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:35,440
would be more than willing to cross over that big lake

1368
01:26:36,480 --> 01:26:40,280
and show up at the door of San Francisco or LA or San

1369
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:42,560
Diego, knocking on the door, saying,

1370
01:26:43,910 --> 01:26:45,830
we're here from Beijing, we're here to help.

1371
01:26:48,230 --> 01:26:50,150
I don't doubt they've got 200 million of them.

1372
01:26:51,910 --> 01:26:55,710
Yeah, I doubt highly we have a hundred thousand who would

1373
01:26:55,710 --> 01:26:59,070
be willing. Actually, I doubt highly that we have 2 million young men who would

1374
01:26:59,070 --> 01:27:02,790
be willing to go on defense. That's my thing. If the energies

1375
01:27:02,790 --> 01:27:06,470
are where you say they are, this is really the thing that's happening. Now, I'm

1376
01:27:06,470 --> 01:27:09,960
not really convinced that that's the thing that's happening. But if, if we are

1377
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:13,600
convinced of that, okay, who's going to

1378
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:17,240
staff the military? Who's gonna. How do. Well, also

1379
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:21,080
think. I, I also wonder. I shouldn't say. I think, I also wonder

1380
01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:24,800
if there's something to be said about, about, you

1381
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:28,520
know, as you were talking about earlier, you know, modern warfare

1382
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:32,360
just being different. You do you need, do you need 2 million

1383
01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:36,920
men to stand up and create a line and fight, inform,

1384
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:41,920
or do you need a thousand of them that can operate three drones

1385
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:45,320
at a time and, and you know, just be willing to sit in a bunker

1386
01:27:45,320 --> 01:27:48,960
somewhere in Texas and, and fly planes around the world. I mean,

1387
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:53,480
it's. It's different today than it is, than it has been. But to your

1388
01:27:53,480 --> 01:27:57,040
point, I still think there needs to be somebody willing

1389
01:27:58,160 --> 01:28:01,840
to do that. But I. I don't know if the numbers are required

1390
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:05,620
anymore. I. I don't know if that's the. But. But

1391
01:28:05,620 --> 01:28:08,500
I guess it goes back to it. So then how do you prove your worth

1392
01:28:08,500 --> 01:28:12,220
to yourself and to your community, to your

1393
01:28:12,220 --> 01:28:15,260
significant other, to whatever? And I also think.

1394
01:28:15,820 --> 01:28:19,420
I think that's all changing. It's changing on a daily basis.

1395
01:28:19,580 --> 01:28:22,140
I mean, it's really. Like I said, it's really hard to prove your worth. I

1396
01:28:22,140 --> 01:28:25,460
was actually just watching a clip of the movie Office Space before I walked in

1397
01:28:25,460 --> 01:28:27,340
here. Like, a buddy of mine was like.

1398
01:28:29,350 --> 01:28:32,230
Yeah, I love that movie. I love that movie. Love that movie so much. Love

1399
01:28:32,230 --> 01:28:36,070
that. I absolutely love that movie. But.

1400
01:28:36,230 --> 01:28:39,550
But, like, that movie was. Was probably the. The beginning of the

1401
01:28:39,550 --> 01:28:43,310
culturalization, the acknowledgment at a cultural

1402
01:28:43,310 --> 01:28:47,150
level that the energies of

1403
01:28:47,150 --> 01:28:50,830
young men are moving in a different direction. Or.

1404
01:28:50,830 --> 01:28:53,950
Or maybe you're being suppressed. And by the way, I'll go into. I'll go into

1405
01:28:53,950 --> 01:28:57,570
another one. So testosterone rates among young

1406
01:28:57,570 --> 01:29:01,170
men are down. They are not where they used to be.

1407
01:29:02,050 --> 01:29:05,010
Fertility rates are down in America.

1408
01:29:05,810 --> 01:29:08,850
And I don't care what

1409
01:29:09,090 --> 01:29:12,850
biology you ideologically want

1410
01:29:13,330 --> 01:29:16,690
to hang your hat on, you still do

1411
01:29:16,930 --> 01:29:19,810
need a male and a female to make a baby,

1412
01:29:21,470 --> 01:29:25,150
and that's down, right? The rates of people

1413
01:29:25,150 --> 01:29:28,910
hooking up, it isn't like it was when we were in our teens

1414
01:29:28,910 --> 01:29:32,350
and twenties. That's all in the toilet. You also have

1415
01:29:33,310 --> 01:29:36,510
dopaminergic tools

1416
01:29:36,910 --> 01:29:40,190
that provide the same sort of psychological

1417
01:29:40,430 --> 01:29:44,110
and biological kick, but without all the

1418
01:29:44,110 --> 01:29:47,470
risk. Video games, porn, social media,

1419
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:52,080
only fans, whatever, right? Like, all these things are out here in the world.

1420
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:55,240
And so when it comes to the question of what do we do with young

1421
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:58,160
men, or how do we channel young men's energies, I don't think anybody has a

1422
01:29:58,160 --> 01:30:00,560
good answer to that, because I think this is a real problem.

1423
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:05,480
And I will say this. The

1424
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:09,200
Sioux understood what to do. They understood what to do with the energies of their

1425
01:30:09,200 --> 01:30:12,640
young men. They got it. They knew exactly what to do. Because, by the way,

1426
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:16,400
it had worked for. Name your number of multiple millennia here,

1427
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:19,360
right? It worked for a millennial. Why not?

1428
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:22,480
I. I think that we lose something

1429
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:28,120
in our postmodern era when we just say, oh, well, those folks were just. And

1430
01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:30,720
by the way, not just the folks in the native tribes, we also look at

1431
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:34,480
people in the 7th Cavalry as being savages, too, quite frankly, we do. We use

1432
01:30:34,480 --> 01:30:37,760
the same term. We would say, oh, those people were savages and they wasted their

1433
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:40,550
human potential. Right? I mean, like,

1434
01:30:41,990 --> 01:30:45,670
the people that Custer was leading, those

1435
01:30:45,670 --> 01:30:49,470
weren't kids. I mean, or they were kids, basically. Like, they were the flower

1436
01:30:49,470 --> 01:30:53,030
of the youth of the. Particularly coming off the Civil War where,

1437
01:30:53,990 --> 01:30:57,350
you know, what was it, 250,000?

1438
01:30:57,670 --> 01:31:00,630
Officially? 300,000, something like that.

1439
01:31:01,670 --> 01:31:05,030
People. I shouldn't say people. 3,000 men,

1440
01:31:05,620 --> 01:31:09,420
huh. Had been died or wounded, right? So there wasn't that. There wasn't that

1441
01:31:09,420 --> 01:31:13,220
many dudes to go around. And Custer was taking dudes and

1442
01:31:13,220 --> 01:31:17,060
the 7th Cavalry was taking dudes, and Phil Sheridan and all those

1443
01:31:17,060 --> 01:31:20,900
guys were taking guys. And they were saying, hey, here's an

1444
01:31:20,900 --> 01:31:24,620
opportunity to prove your worth. Let's go kill some. Let's

1445
01:31:24,620 --> 01:31:28,260
go kill some Native peoples. And the native peoples were more than.

1446
01:31:28,900 --> 01:31:31,920
The young men in those tribes were more than willing to accommodate them.

1447
01:31:32,710 --> 01:31:35,270
And City Bull really didn't have to, like, do that much.

1448
01:31:36,870 --> 01:31:40,350
It's one thing to talk about Crazy Horse, but Sitting Bull really didn't have to

1449
01:31:40,350 --> 01:31:44,070
do that much to convince them because they were already. They were already there.

1450
01:31:47,750 --> 01:31:51,270
Okay, I think we still don't know what to do about young men. And I'm

1451
01:31:51,270 --> 01:31:54,990
going to keep. I got sons. I gotta. I gotta. I gotta figure this out,

1452
01:31:54,990 --> 01:31:58,840
because I. My daughters are gonna be fine. In the world that we

1453
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:02,640
are building, my daughters will be fine. They will be fine. I agree.

1454
01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:07,040
I just watch my daughter navigate through the world, and I agree with you. I'm

1455
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:10,640
like, she'll be fine. She's the one I worry about the least, honestly. Right?

1456
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:14,920
And. And by the way, she will be fine. Not only your daughter and my

1457
01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:18,080
daughters, not only will they be fine because of how the world has been

1458
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:22,080
restructured for them so that they can navigate through it without really

1459
01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:25,770
having to have too much friction, but they will be fine because if all

1460
01:32:25,770 --> 01:32:28,970
else fails, they can always fall back on their

1461
01:32:28,970 --> 01:32:32,330
biology. If all else fails.

1462
01:32:32,570 --> 01:32:36,410
If all else fails for young men, they can't

1463
01:32:36,410 --> 01:32:40,210
fall back on their biology. Not in the world that we've built. And I

1464
01:32:40,210 --> 01:32:41,610
don't know what to do about that.

1465
01:32:49,220 --> 01:32:50,820
Anyway, back to the book Jesus.

1466
01:32:55,780 --> 01:32:59,540
Round the corner. We're not solving this world problem no. We're

1467
01:32:59,540 --> 01:33:03,220
not solving this problem today no. Listen, if I had my druthers, we flag

1468
01:33:03,220 --> 01:33:06,020
football wouldn't even be a thing. Okay, Let me just say it that way.

1469
01:33:08,900 --> 01:33:12,220
I'd rather have. I'd rather smash heads and have a concussion or two in my

1470
01:33:12,220 --> 01:33:15,920
childhood than not have experienced that. I think. Think about,

1471
01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:19,680
like. Like, you don't

1472
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:22,600
know how to. Like, could you imagine the first time you ever had your bell

1473
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:26,400
rung? You're being in your mid-20s, not understanding what's going on or how do it.

1474
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:30,280
No. Like, if you get your bell rung in your early teens, by the way,

1475
01:33:30,280 --> 01:33:33,960
your brain recoups a lot faster in the early teens, too. So having a

1476
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:37,760
concussion at 12 or 13 or whatever is not the

1477
01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:41,300
worst thing in the world that could ever happen to. To a person. So but

1478
01:33:41,300 --> 01:33:44,500
like. But once you have one and you understand what it is, you understand how

1479
01:33:44,500 --> 01:33:47,980
to act, you understand what to do with it, how to. Like, now you have

1480
01:33:47,980 --> 01:33:50,980
one in your 20s, 10 years later, you're like, oh, okay, this is familiar. I

1481
01:33:50,980 --> 01:33:54,780
know what I'm doing. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean. I mean, even the fact

1482
01:33:54,780 --> 01:33:58,420
that I didn't. Even the fact that I didn't play organized

1483
01:33:58,420 --> 01:34:01,220
sports, you know, in my teenage years, as I've just gone on about.

1484
01:34:02,420 --> 01:34:05,700
And some people will interpret that defensively, but they can go to hell.

1485
01:34:05,940 --> 01:34:09,690
So even with that,

1486
01:34:10,090 --> 01:34:13,890
like, the amount, as I told somebody else in a different kind

1487
01:34:13,890 --> 01:34:17,530
of context, the only thing I really enjoyed between the ages of 12 and, like,

1488
01:34:17,530 --> 01:34:21,090
18 was fighting. That was my sport. That's what I

1489
01:34:21,090 --> 01:34:24,810
enjoyed. I enjoyed mixing it up and getting in people's faces.

1490
01:34:25,290 --> 01:34:28,930
And I was a skinny warrior. Like,

1491
01:34:28,930 --> 01:34:32,650
I'm gonna go in there and we're gonna. We're gonna do the thing. And the

1492
01:34:32,650 --> 01:34:36,430
last actual, like, physical altercation I had

1493
01:34:36,430 --> 01:34:39,950
with someone who was going to do violence to me was probably when I was

1494
01:34:39,950 --> 01:34:43,190
in my late 20s. And so it's been a bit.

1495
01:34:43,430 --> 01:34:45,750
It's been a minute. But guess what?

1496
01:34:47,110 --> 01:34:50,950
I haven't forgotten the memory of all of those experiences.

1497
01:34:51,190 --> 01:34:54,390
Right there is a. And

1498
01:34:55,990 --> 01:34:59,710
it's interesting. So I hear a lot

1499
01:34:59,710 --> 01:35:03,490
of people talk. No, a lot of people will comment online and to me

1500
01:35:03,570 --> 01:35:05,250
in public, that

1501
01:35:07,890 --> 01:35:10,610
I'll frame it as a question. They'll ask me this question, why are you doing

1502
01:35:10,610 --> 01:35:12,050
Jiu Jitsu if you'll never use it?

1503
01:35:14,370 --> 01:35:17,370
And then they'll follow that up with, well, that jiu jitsu stuff wouldn't work on

1504
01:35:17,370 --> 01:35:21,010
me. And I'm just like,

1505
01:35:21,970 --> 01:35:25,490
the second you say that, that tells me everyone

1506
01:35:25,650 --> 01:35:29,090
own you. I own you. I own you even without doing anything.

1507
01:35:29,510 --> 01:35:33,270
That's number one. But number two, that tells me you've never

1508
01:35:33,270 --> 01:35:36,790
actually had your bell rub. That tells me that you're part of that generation

1509
01:35:37,670 --> 01:35:41,470
that hasn't didn't play the sports, didn't

1510
01:35:41,470 --> 01:35:44,390
get knocked down didn't have a whole lot of friction.

1511
01:35:45,430 --> 01:35:49,230
If you did, it was as. As Mark the comedian Mark Mirren would say,

1512
01:35:49,230 --> 01:35:52,710
finky pain, psychological pain.

1513
01:35:53,270 --> 01:35:56,790
But psychological pain, thinky pain and physical pain are different.

1514
01:35:57,670 --> 01:36:01,310
They're not. They're not the same thing. And so what we miss is

1515
01:36:01,310 --> 01:36:04,950
the. Is the linkage in people's brains, which can only come from taking.

1516
01:36:05,190 --> 01:36:08,950
They got a punch to the mouth. Sometimes we're missing giving

1517
01:36:08,950 --> 01:36:12,190
that opportunity to people. So you say something like that to a person like me

1518
01:36:12,190 --> 01:36:15,270
who's had those two things connect together in my head

1519
01:36:17,030 --> 01:36:19,270
and I just sort of look at you and I just go,

1520
01:36:20,960 --> 01:36:23,920
you have a good day. And I just walk. I have. I have to stop

1521
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:27,120
talking to you. I have to put you on a back burner.

1522
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:31,560
And by the way, I've had women tell me, oh, well,

1523
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:34,800
you know, I could take you. I'm like, ma', am,

1524
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:39,520
ma', am, ma'. Am. Just.

1525
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:43,680
I'm a man. I got testosterone and man strength,

1526
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:47,440
and I've been hit by another grown man before. You don't. You don't have it.

1527
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:51,400
You just don't. Like, you think you do because you've been watching too many Marvel

1528
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:54,960
movies, as I said before, but you don't have this.

1529
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:58,960
It's a different thing. And

1530
01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:01,680
I think too many folks in our society

1531
01:37:02,640 --> 01:37:06,480
because we've reduced that, to your point about flag football and

1532
01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:10,480
contact sports and all of that, we've reduced people's

1533
01:37:10,480 --> 01:37:14,200
opportunities to get real with reality, the physical hardness

1534
01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:17,600
of reality. I do agree with you about that. And I don't know what we

1535
01:37:17,600 --> 01:37:19,680
do about that. I don't know. I don't know where the clearing at the end

1536
01:37:19,680 --> 01:37:22,480
of the path. I'm gonna be all sitting bull on this. I don't know what

1537
01:37:22,480 --> 01:37:26,320
the clearing at the end of the path is on this, you

1538
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:28,839
know, and I'm. I'm actually kind of afraid of what the clearing at the end

1539
01:37:28,839 --> 01:37:32,640
of the path might be. I, you know, I don't think it's gonna look good.

1540
01:37:40,490 --> 01:37:42,810
That's my script, folks. Back to the book.

1541
01:37:44,090 --> 01:37:46,650
Back to the Earth is all the last. We're going to round the corner here.

1542
01:37:46,970 --> 01:37:50,770
So. Mark Lee Garner, by the way, I would recommend getting this book.

1543
01:37:50,770 --> 01:37:53,930
It's great. It's well researched, as we've talked about. Plenty of notes.

1544
01:37:56,650 --> 01:38:00,410
It goes into every last. Oh, well,

1545
01:38:00,410 --> 01:38:04,120
not every last piece, but the entire last half. The

1546
01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:07,920
back half of Sitting Bullet crazy versus, you know, engagement in life.

1547
01:38:08,640 --> 01:38:12,480
And probably the most important parts

1548
01:38:12,480 --> 01:38:16,080
of the book are towards the end, after the wars are

1549
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:19,920
over. And this is where you get the difference between

1550
01:38:19,999 --> 01:38:23,640
young men who are warriors seeking hierarchy and status, and old

1551
01:38:23,640 --> 01:38:26,640
men who have to come in and make the peace.

1552
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:31,680
And if not make the peace, at the very minimum, shake hands with the enemy

1553
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:35,530
who, who got a vote whether we wanted them to or not.

1554
01:38:37,850 --> 01:38:41,290
And, and it struck me

1555
01:38:42,010 --> 01:38:45,770
that what happened with, or

1556
01:38:45,770 --> 01:38:47,770
the ways in which the native tribes

1557
01:38:49,450 --> 01:38:52,490
dealt with the US government and were dealt with by the US government

1558
01:38:53,610 --> 01:38:57,330
put me in mind of the line from Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E. lawrence

1559
01:38:57,330 --> 01:39:00,090
talking about the difference between old men and young men. And he said this, and

1560
01:39:00,090 --> 01:39:03,810
I quote, talking about, by the way, the old men at the end of

1561
01:39:03,810 --> 01:39:07,050
World War I, who sent the young men to die in the trenches. I've used

1562
01:39:07,050 --> 01:39:10,570
this quote before, but I want to use it again here. And I quote,

1563
01:39:10,810 --> 01:39:14,410
we lived many lives in those whirling campaigns, never sparing

1564
01:39:14,410 --> 01:39:17,970
ourselves. Pause for just a minute. I think the same could be said about those

1565
01:39:17,970 --> 01:39:21,410
young men in those tribal wars. Back to the

1566
01:39:21,410 --> 01:39:25,250
quote. Yet when we, when we achieved and the

1567
01:39:25,250 --> 01:39:28,990
new world dawned, the old men came out again and took our

1568
01:39:28,990 --> 01:39:32,710
victory to remake in the likeness of the former world. They

1569
01:39:32,710 --> 01:39:36,550
knew youth could win but had not

1570
01:39:36,550 --> 01:39:40,150
learned to keep and was pitiably weak

1571
01:39:40,150 --> 01:39:43,790
against age. We stammered that we had

1572
01:39:43,790 --> 01:39:47,430
worked for a new heaven and a new earth, and they thanked us

1573
01:39:47,430 --> 01:39:50,230
kindly and made their peace.

1574
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:57,720
Yeah, yeah. Now, I didn't say the piece

1575
01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:01,040
was fair, nor did I say the piece was equitable. Let me be very clear.

1576
01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:03,760
It was neither fair nor equitable. It was.

1577
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:08,680
Oppressive is probably the correct word. Not probably, it is the

1578
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:12,000
correct word to use. And yet

1579
01:40:13,680 --> 01:40:17,120
this is the challenge. This is the difference between old men

1580
01:40:17,610 --> 01:40:21,290
and young men. And I guess my question here for Tom towards the

1581
01:40:21,290 --> 01:40:21,850
end is.

1582
01:40:27,050 --> 01:40:30,890
How do old men honor the sacrifices of young men when they have to

1583
01:40:30,890 --> 01:40:34,730
make peace with the enemy? How, how does that happen? I think Sitting Bull tried,

1584
01:40:34,730 --> 01:40:35,850
but I don't think he really

1585
01:40:35,850 --> 01:40:42,990
knew

1586
01:40:44,020 --> 01:40:47,620
a really. Darn good question because again, I, I, I,

1587
01:40:47,620 --> 01:40:51,260
I don't think, I don't think there's a

1588
01:40:51,260 --> 01:40:55,020
real satisfactory answer to that. I

1589
01:40:55,020 --> 01:40:56,340
mean, again, think about it from,

1590
01:40:59,620 --> 01:41:03,380
in this, in this framework

1591
01:41:03,380 --> 01:41:07,140
that we're talking about here. You

1592
01:41:07,140 --> 01:41:10,930
know, Sitting Bull lost a lot of brave warriors, lost

1593
01:41:10,930 --> 01:41:14,450
a lot of fighters, lost a lot of friends in these, in these wars.

1594
01:41:14,610 --> 01:41:16,050
And how do you honor them?

1595
01:41:21,250 --> 01:41:24,650
I think, I think in their minds at the time. And again, I'm not

1596
01:41:24,650 --> 01:41:28,450
suggesting that I know what they were thinking, but from,

1597
01:41:28,450 --> 01:41:32,050
from a retrospective position, it's,

1598
01:41:32,130 --> 01:41:35,980
I think they're thinking of in the sense of those warriors fought

1599
01:41:37,020 --> 01:41:40,740
to protect their people. If in

1600
01:41:40,740 --> 01:41:44,380
the end, Sitting Bull can protect his people through

1601
01:41:44,460 --> 01:41:48,180
negotiation, they still did not die in vain because the

1602
01:41:48,180 --> 01:41:51,980
people and the, the people are, are ultimately protected.

1603
01:41:52,220 --> 01:41:55,580
Right? So, yeah, again, I think, I think ultimately how

1604
01:41:55,740 --> 01:41:59,500
Sitting Bull can look at himself in the mirror and think that he

1605
01:41:59,740 --> 01:42:02,980
is still doing a good job as, as the, their leader,

1606
01:42:03,380 --> 01:42:07,220
as the leader of those, those people is the fact that the

1607
01:42:07,220 --> 01:42:10,940
Lakota are still here today. We can say

1608
01:42:10,940 --> 01:42:14,020
what we want about, about how many died and

1609
01:42:14,420 --> 01:42:18,260
useless deaths and all this other stuff about warfare and whatnot.

1610
01:42:18,820 --> 01:42:22,660
But if you think about the legacy behind Sitting Bull

1611
01:42:23,060 --> 01:42:26,590
in his, in, in his and his people,

1612
01:42:26,590 --> 01:42:30,270
since they're still here now, are they thriving?

1613
01:42:31,710 --> 01:42:35,390
You can say, you can argue that they're not. You can argue. And, and

1614
01:42:35,870 --> 01:42:39,630
for those of you who don't know, some of the reservations that our

1615
01:42:39,630 --> 01:42:42,990
native people are living on today, if they were not in the middle of the

1616
01:42:42,990 --> 01:42:46,470
United States, if you removed them and put them anywhere else in the world, they

1617
01:42:46,470 --> 01:42:50,150
would be considered Third World countries. You have these people

1618
01:42:50,150 --> 01:42:53,990
living in environments that would be considered Third World countries if

1619
01:42:53,990 --> 01:42:57,320
they lived, if they were anywhere else the planet. But because they sit in the

1620
01:42:57,320 --> 01:43:01,040
borders of the United States, they don't get classified that way. They also don't get

1621
01:43:01,040 --> 01:43:03,960
treated that way, so they don't get the help that they need. But the Pine

1622
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:07,760
Ridge Reservation is an atrocity to human nature. I mean, I, I,

1623
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:11,399
I, I, I, I try to be very careful how I

1624
01:43:11,399 --> 01:43:14,720
word this because I also do not want to disrespect my,

1625
01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:19,440
you know, my western westward cousins here.

1626
01:43:20,320 --> 01:43:24,130
In a sense that I don't think they necessarily want our help

1627
01:43:24,130 --> 01:43:27,290
either. I think they want to try to figure it out. So there's that. And

1628
01:43:27,290 --> 01:43:30,850
that goes back to the legacy of people like Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull

1629
01:43:30,850 --> 01:43:34,450
where they're going to fight, even, even if the fight is a little bit different.

1630
01:43:34,690 --> 01:43:38,290
They're going to fight today just as they fought 100 years ago

1631
01:43:38,370 --> 01:43:42,010
for the survival of their people and the protection of their

1632
01:43:42,010 --> 01:43:45,850
people. So I think, I think it's, it's a hard question to

1633
01:43:45,850 --> 01:43:48,920
answer, but I think ultimately, if you are a warrior in

1634
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:52,320
1860, 1870, 1880, your,

1635
01:43:52,720 --> 01:43:56,440
your mental, your faculties are telling you that you are

1636
01:43:56,440 --> 01:44:00,000
fighting beyond the. I want

1637
01:44:00,000 --> 01:44:03,640
to, I want to position myself as. It has been

1638
01:44:03,640 --> 01:44:07,480
accomplished something. What drives that really is

1639
01:44:07,480 --> 01:44:11,120
protecting your people. Like you want you, you put yourself on the front line

1640
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:14,880
so that, so that your people are able to, to live

1641
01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:18,240
the way they want to live. And I think the same rule applies today for

1642
01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:21,960
some of that. And I think that Sitting Bull was the. The bar

1643
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:25,000
to be measured by in that respect. He

1644
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:28,720
ultimately, he made so many sacrifices.

1645
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:32,480
He refused to back down. He refused to give in. He. He

1646
01:44:32,480 --> 01:44:36,080
crossed the border into Canada for the same reasons. He dragged

1647
01:44:36,400 --> 01:44:39,880
hundreds of people that followed him across the border hundreds of

1648
01:44:39,880 --> 01:44:43,600
miles out of principle, came back out of the

1649
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:47,120
same principle, out of negotiation of peace and. And trying to

1650
01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:50,680
protect his people. So I think. I think all that applies.

1651
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:54,600
Right. Like, there's a lot of, you know, and I

1652
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:58,079
think that's kind of the same. We talked about that. Like, as you look at

1653
01:44:58,079 --> 01:45:01,080
some of these wars and the young men fighting these wars and then the generals

1654
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:04,840
sitting behind the desks. The generals are the ones negotiating the peace treaties on

1655
01:45:04,840 --> 01:45:07,320
the side over here because they don't want to lose any more of their young

1656
01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:09,900
men. I think

1657
01:45:11,340 --> 01:45:14,700
who backs down in that is not

1658
01:45:14,700 --> 01:45:18,540
relevant as to how the. The mentality of it is on both

1659
01:45:18,540 --> 01:45:22,340
sides. Whether you win or lose those battles, you're signing that treaty

1660
01:45:22,340 --> 01:45:26,100
to protect your men from themselves. Yeah, I think that's

1661
01:45:26,100 --> 01:45:29,700
kind of what Sitting Bull was, the mentality there. I'm going to protect my

1662
01:45:29,700 --> 01:45:33,380
warriors from themselves because they have the attitude of, I'm going to.

1663
01:45:33,380 --> 01:45:36,740
I. I'll fight till the death. I'll fight. It doesn't matter,

1664
01:45:37,060 --> 01:45:40,700
because I'm gonna. If my people are going to be in peril, it's not going

1665
01:45:40,700 --> 01:45:44,540
to be because of me. Right. Like, I'm. I'm

1666
01:45:44,540 --> 01:45:48,300
gonna. If. If my people are not going to be able to survive

1667
01:45:48,300 --> 01:45:51,580
and thrive, then I don't want to witness it, so I won't be alive to

1668
01:45:51,580 --> 01:45:54,420
do so. They're going to have to kill me in order to get that. To

1669
01:45:54,420 --> 01:45:58,100
get that done. So. And again. And Sitting Bull ultimately did.

1670
01:45:58,180 --> 01:46:01,860
Did give his life in the end for this. For this piece at,

1671
01:46:02,180 --> 01:46:05,820
you know, in 1890 at Wounded Knee, that, like, not at the battle of

1672
01:46:05,820 --> 01:46:09,620
Wounded Knee, but it was right prior, just. Just before that. It was basically the.

1673
01:46:10,180 --> 01:46:13,980
The catalyst to Wounded Knee, the. The. The death of Sitting Bull.

1674
01:46:13,980 --> 01:46:17,820
So I think he accomplished what he set out to accomplish

1675
01:46:17,820 --> 01:46:20,380
was, you know, he was going to give his life to make sure his people

1676
01:46:20,380 --> 01:46:24,060
were able to survive and. And move beyond

1677
01:46:24,060 --> 01:46:27,790
the. This. Where they were stuck, so to speak, in.

1678
01:46:27,790 --> 01:46:30,750
In that limbo state. Well, and,

1679
01:46:31,390 --> 01:46:34,830
I mean, we talked a little bit about this in the introduction episode.

1680
01:46:37,230 --> 01:46:40,750
Yes. This is a book about channeling the spirits of young men

1681
01:46:41,230 --> 01:46:44,910
into war, and

1682
01:46:44,910 --> 01:46:48,550
it matches up with everything else that we've been Reading about whether

1683
01:46:48,550 --> 01:46:51,230
those, those young men again, are in the Korengal Valley

1684
01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:55,280
or they are on the, in the, in the fields and in the trenches of

1685
01:46:55,280 --> 01:46:58,920
Europe in, in World War I, or

1686
01:46:59,240 --> 01:47:02,840
if they are in Korea or Vietnam or wherever. Right.

1687
01:47:05,720 --> 01:47:09,120
Can't remember who it was or what movie I saw it in, and it doesn't

1688
01:47:09,120 --> 01:47:10,920
really matter. But

1689
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:16,320
somebody, some soldier once nihilistically and

1690
01:47:16,320 --> 01:47:19,080
existentially said, one day this war is going to be over.

1691
01:47:21,800 --> 01:47:25,640
And it's true. One day war will be

1692
01:47:25,640 --> 01:47:29,160
over. Not in all of human history. I don't think we're going to get to

1693
01:47:29,160 --> 01:47:32,120
the end of war before we get to the end of human history. Like,

1694
01:47:33,320 --> 01:47:36,680
quite frankly, from my perspective, Jesus has to come back before even that happens.

1695
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:40,160
And that's, that's, that's my thought on that. We'll have

1696
01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:42,840
warfare until the end of time,

1697
01:47:45,410 --> 01:47:47,810
but the individual war. Right,

1698
01:47:51,010 --> 01:47:54,810
the war is going to end. One of the other books that we're going

1699
01:47:54,810 --> 01:47:58,290
to cover next couple of weeks is called, is

1700
01:47:58,290 --> 01:48:02,130
titled Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway. And it is his

1701
01:48:02,770 --> 01:48:04,530
semi autobiographical

1702
01:48:07,090 --> 01:48:10,810
story of his experiences as an

1703
01:48:10,810 --> 01:48:14,450
ambulance driver in World War I. And one of the things that

1704
01:48:14,450 --> 01:48:17,490
pops out in that. And I think he would have had a lot of

1705
01:48:17,490 --> 01:48:21,210
simpatico with the young

1706
01:48:21,210 --> 01:48:24,890
men of the Lakota and those young

1707
01:48:24,890 --> 01:48:27,570
Lakota warriors. And I think he would have also had a lot of Simpatico with

1708
01:48:27,570 --> 01:48:31,370
the 7th Cavalry is something that they all shared all the way up

1709
01:48:31,370 --> 01:48:35,050
and down the line, I think, was this idea

1710
01:48:35,050 --> 01:48:38,810
that at a certain point the warrior spirit is emptied out and the

1711
01:48:38,810 --> 01:48:41,660
war just has to be done. That's one of the things that comes through in

1712
01:48:41,660 --> 01:48:44,940
A Farewell to Arms. And he talks a lot with the other Italian soldiers

1713
01:48:45,260 --> 01:48:48,940
about how this war has to end because we're exhausted. Right.

1714
01:48:49,420 --> 01:48:52,740
And the point that the older men make, interestingly enough to

1715
01:48:52,740 --> 01:48:56,540
Hemingway, is that the old men don't

1716
01:48:56,540 --> 01:49:00,260
know how to end it. The old men don't know how to

1717
01:49:00,260 --> 01:49:03,900
end the war. And until the old men get exhausted, this war

1718
01:49:03,900 --> 01:49:07,590
isn't going to end because. Then they're not exerting the same amount of energy.

1719
01:49:08,550 --> 01:49:11,990
Exactly. And, and this is where I come to sort of my last

1720
01:49:11,990 --> 01:49:13,510
conclusion from this great book,

1721
01:49:15,670 --> 01:49:19,470
the Job of Older Leaders. And we don't like

1722
01:49:19,470 --> 01:49:23,190
talking about age because it's ageism and it feels like we're segregating people.

1723
01:49:24,470 --> 01:49:28,190
And the reality of age is the job of older leaders is

1724
01:49:28,190 --> 01:49:31,910
to engage with wisdom. The job of older leaders is to,

1725
01:49:33,150 --> 01:49:36,750
as Kenny Rogers said way back in that old song, the gambler no one to

1726
01:49:36,750 --> 01:49:40,190
hold them and no one to fold them. Yeah. No one to walk away and

1727
01:49:40,190 --> 01:49:43,950
no one to run. And if young people not

1728
01:49:43,950 --> 01:49:47,070
sound like it's about young men. If young people. If

1729
01:49:47,310 --> 01:49:50,950
youthful energy doesn't have that wisdom and will expend

1730
01:49:50,950 --> 01:49:54,790
itself. Older leaders have to know

1731
01:49:54,790 --> 01:49:58,390
when to stop that and cease

1732
01:49:58,390 --> 01:50:02,140
that and redirect the that. And it is a failure of leadership.

1733
01:50:03,260 --> 01:50:07,020
Like in World War I, the fan. The

1734
01:50:07,020 --> 01:50:09,980
massive failure of leadership like that war should have been over in two years.

1735
01:50:10,780 --> 01:50:14,580
Massive failure of leadership because the. The old men didn't know when to tell the

1736
01:50:14,580 --> 01:50:18,220
young men to stop. Hell, the old men didn't know when to stop themselves.

1737
01:50:19,580 --> 01:50:22,780
And that's a massive failure of leadership. And we just.

1738
01:50:23,580 --> 01:50:26,620
And to our point that we made earlier, with our new technologies,

1739
01:50:28,780 --> 01:50:32,540
we. The stopping points need to be sooner because we

1740
01:50:32,540 --> 01:50:36,300
can do so much more damage now with our new technologies. A young man

1741
01:50:36,300 --> 01:50:40,140
with a $20 million drone can kill more people than a Lakota

1742
01:50:40,140 --> 01:50:43,940
warrior could have ever dreamed of. And that's

1743
01:50:43,940 --> 01:50:47,620
just that. All the while looking at it like it's a

1744
01:50:47,620 --> 01:50:50,060
video game, like it's Call of Duty or something.

1745
01:50:51,270 --> 01:50:54,790
It's not because you're killing real people with real consequences.

1746
01:50:55,430 --> 01:50:59,110
But this is. This is the mindset that has to be channeled and the energies

1747
01:50:59,110 --> 01:51:02,390
that need to be bounded

1748
01:51:02,950 --> 01:51:04,950
by the wisdom of old age and experience.

1749
01:51:11,910 --> 01:51:15,750
We haven't really resolved anything today, as usual. No, no.

1750
01:51:16,630 --> 01:51:20,470
Never really resolved anything. We haven't gotten good conclusions to

1751
01:51:20,470 --> 01:51:24,150
any. Any questions. What do you think

1752
01:51:24,150 --> 01:51:27,990
leaders should take from the Earth is all that lasts? What should they take

1753
01:51:27,990 --> 01:51:31,510
if they read this book? Final thought. I think. I think I

1754
01:51:31,510 --> 01:51:35,310
alluded to it earlier. I think. I think there's. I think there's a

1755
01:51:35,389 --> 01:51:38,870
good. I think there's a good comparison to the

1756
01:51:38,870 --> 01:51:42,670
leadership styles between the two people, between Crazy Horse

1757
01:51:42,670 --> 01:51:46,220
and Sitting Bull. I think they're distinctly different. I don't think one

1758
01:51:46,220 --> 01:51:49,900
is more valuable than the other, but I

1759
01:51:49,900 --> 01:51:53,300
definitely think that there are things to be learned by the two different styles of

1760
01:51:53,300 --> 01:51:56,860
leadership. Again, we talked about Crazy Horse leading by example, being in the

1761
01:51:56,860 --> 01:52:00,580
forefront, being out in the front of the

1762
01:52:00,580 --> 01:52:03,100
battles. And today's leaders.

1763
01:52:04,540 --> 01:52:07,140
I don't know about you, but I've spent time in a lot of different industries.

1764
01:52:07,140 --> 01:52:09,580
I take the restaurant industry.

1765
01:52:10,860 --> 01:52:14,410
I care about it very deeply in my heart because I started there, and as

1766
01:52:14,410 --> 01:52:18,250
a restaurant manager and somebody who was running, you know, a

1767
01:52:18,250 --> 01:52:21,450
lot of people, I would have no hesitation whatsoever to roll up my sleeves and

1768
01:52:21,450 --> 01:52:25,290
wash dishes. And when my team saw that the general manager of the

1769
01:52:25,290 --> 01:52:29,050
restaurant was willing to wash dishes. They never questioned me. If I asked them to

1770
01:52:29,050 --> 01:52:31,810
go wash dishes, they would just go do it because they knew that I was

1771
01:52:31,810 --> 01:52:35,570
willing and able and capable and more than I would do it myself if

1772
01:52:35,570 --> 01:52:38,290
I could. If I didn't have this in front of me to do it, I

1773
01:52:38,290 --> 01:52:41,880
would do it sweeping the floors. There was no job in the restaurant industry that

1774
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:45,320
was beneath me. And I think my team saw that and

1775
01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:49,400
responded as such, being like, if it's not beneath me, then why would it be

1776
01:52:49,400 --> 01:52:53,080
be beneath them? Any of them. So there's lead by example and again,

1777
01:52:53,160 --> 01:52:56,880
Sitting Bull led by philosophy. Right. So you believe in the same

1778
01:52:56,880 --> 01:53:00,600
thing I believe in. I'm not physically capable of doing. Let's

1779
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:04,440
again say in the restaurant business, if I was beyond the, the point

1780
01:53:04,440 --> 01:53:08,290
where I could mop the, that floor or fix the oven or whatever it was,

1781
01:53:08,370 --> 01:53:12,170
and I asked somebody younger to me to do it, they would do it because

1782
01:53:12,170 --> 01:53:15,770
philosophically they know that I would do it if I could. Right. Like, so it's

1783
01:53:15,770 --> 01:53:19,450
like there, there's different styles of leadership in this book. And I

1784
01:53:19,450 --> 01:53:23,090
think if you know yourself well enough to know which one of those

1785
01:53:23,090 --> 01:53:26,530
styles you're going to lean into, I think you could learn something from both of

1786
01:53:26,530 --> 01:53:29,970
these two guys. I think you can absolutely learn something from the book that,

1787
01:53:31,340 --> 01:53:35,140
that would resonate with you. You just basically lean toward one

1788
01:53:35,140 --> 01:53:38,940
or the other. And I, I don't necessarily think it has to you. I

1789
01:53:38,940 --> 01:53:42,460
don't think you necessarily have to pick one or the other. I think you can.

1790
01:53:42,940 --> 01:53:46,580
I think there's ways to grow into different forms of leadership as

1791
01:53:46,580 --> 01:53:50,380
well. Maybe you start out as a leader like Crazy Horse

1792
01:53:50,380 --> 01:53:52,900
and you end up as a leader like Sitting Bull. I think to me that's

1793
01:53:52,900 --> 01:53:56,340
a natural progression. So I think, but I think knowing and

1794
01:53:56,340 --> 01:54:00,080
understanding the two different styles of leadership in there could absolutely help you

1795
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:03,160
in your day to day life if you're, if you're, if you are in that

1796
01:54:03,160 --> 01:54:06,880
leadership role in your company, in your family, in your life or whatever.

1797
01:54:06,960 --> 01:54:10,560
I definitely think that you could learn from these two, these two

1798
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:15,040
Lakota chiefs. Awesome.

1799
01:54:16,160 --> 01:54:19,920
Great final word. And so I will say with that,

1800
01:54:20,080 --> 01:54:22,640
well, we're out.