Susan McCulley: I have noticed that there's also this sort of
in between place where I have started to flip my lid. And I am
able to see that I'm doing it, that I see what's happening. And
I do not have access to my resources. And so all I can do
is just sort of hang out with myself in the fear.
Henny Flynn: Oh, I love that.
Oh, I love that. So it
Susan McCulley: feels like they're different. They're three
different kinds of fear states.
Henny Flynn: Welcome to Season Eight of the podcast that's all
about deepening our self awareness with profound self
compassion. I'm Henny, I write coach and speak about life
changes. And together with my guests, we'll be exploring ideas
that challenge our thinking underpinned by a bedrock of self
love. Settle in, and listen and see where the episode takes you.
Susan McCulley is about to join me but I'm a little bit late,
getting this episode all set up.
So I've just realised that Susan is literally on her way. So not
too long a preamble for me today. But essentially, we're
going to be talking about something which has deep roots,
you know, facing into our fears.
And there was a particular blog post that Susan wrote that
inspired me to connect with her again and say, I think this
might be the topic for our next conversation, Susan will share a
lot more about the experience that she had. And it was all to
do with her physicality, which as a movement teacher is
immensely important for her.
And, and also tied up with identity as well, I'm sure she
will share and agree with. So this whole topic of facing into
our fears is something that's been bubbling for me over the
last weeks and months. And I'm fairly sure it's going to be
something that has been coming up for an awful lot of people
who are listening here as well, there's an awful lot of change
going on around us. And it just feels really pertinent to turn
toward that and just explore it and see what comes from this
conversation. And I can see Susan is here. So I'm going to
pause and then return with her.
Okay, so if I can actually just master the buttons. We are now
recording. There we go. So yes, so I was just Susan is here.
Hurray. Susan. Hello, my darling. It's so good to see
you. And you so good. So Susan, I just had a very quick chat
about this conversation. And if you've listened to our chats
before, then you will know that it is likely to go off in all
manner of directions, but always bring ourselves home to this
core topic that we are going to be discussing today. So settle
in, and let's see where we go.
But there was something that I just wanted to share kind of I
did a very brief intro to this conversation, which I recorded
just before you joined us, Susan. And the thing that I
wanted to add to it is I have really noticed a pool to do an
episode on fear. And I recognise that part of that pool has been
because of noticing some of my own maybe old maybe new fears
coming up and and I've been really kind of mindfully
watching it and just thinking okay, so where's the way in
what's what's the root into this? also aware that perhaps
some of my resistance has been the fear has been creating the
resistance and then when I saw your blog post your beautiful,
vulnerable, intensely honest blog post which I will share a
link to if that's okay with you in our show notes. I just
thought of That's it. That's the way in so yeah, It's a big one,
isn't it?
Susan McCulley: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's the root
of so much. That is, that happens for us personally. And,
globally, I mean, in every realm, and I just, I am just
back from a week at the ocean.
And it didn't go the way I thought it was gonna go, I'm
healing a broken foot. And I think I just decided that my
foot was going to be well enough for me to be prancing in the
sand. And turns out that that's not what happened. And I spent
much of the week going back and forth between being just
overwhelmed by the beauty all around me. And I just love being
near the ocean, the sky, and being afraid about what was
going on with my own healing process and the pain I was
experiencing in my foot. And one day, after, we'd been there for
a couple of days, and I had been avoiding getting into the ocean.
I said to myself, I can do this, I can find a way. And so like, I
got myself near the edge of the ocean, and like, kinda like a
crab walked into the waves, which was I kind of wish
somebody had taken a video because I think, yeah, like, I
know, my bathing suit was full of sand, it was quite the
inelegant affair. But I got in.
And, and there was this sense of freedom in the water. However, I
could not turn my back on the waves, I only was standing on
one foot in the water. And I had to continually face the waves,
that and if I chose to ignore them, and turn away from them,
they knocked me out. And if I could turn and face them, and
sometimes even dive into them, I was okay. And I thought of you
Henny and I thought of this conversation, and I thought
about the truth of this. That, I mean, just inherently fear is
something that we, I think we tend to resist and turn away
from, as you were saying, and if we can face it, and turn toward
it. And even if it's messy and kind of awkward, and we're a
little ass over teakettle. That is the way to be with fear. And
so I am very interested to dive into this with you literally did
really dive into the fear.
Henny Flynn: And what you don't know is that I called this
episode facing the fear. So the beauty of your story, and the
resonance, you know, this whole idea of like how we turned
towards and I know, that's a theme that you and I talk about
a lot with our communities. And we've talked about, you know,
with each other, but this idea of like turning toward always,
you know, turning toward the part that hurts turning toward
the part that's afraid. But what I'm really loving here is the
courageousness, of turning toward the fear itself. And, you
know, many ways those waves could have been a source of fear
for you. And you're nodding, yes, very firmly. So, you know,
the courage of trusting. And it's also there's something else
here about the what's the word the the juxtaposition of two
ideas that are seemingly opposed, you know, the paradox
of turning toward the very thing that you can see coming toward
you that might knock you off your feet. Whereas if you've got
your back to it, you don't know what's coming. And so therefore,
you don't have the fear because you don't know it's there. So
there's something or, or or there's some They were really
nice in there.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I mean, if we're going
to play with this wave thing a little more, there, there was
also the physical experience, instead of seeing the wave
coming, and bracing myself, and, like digging in, and letting it
move over me, I mean, instead, go with it, go into it. I was, I
was untouched, really, if I if I was willing to dive into it. And
yeah, and so, so this, this feeling of, and we have talked
about this in other context of, of softening into relaxing into
flowing into whatever is facing us, rather than getting this
rigid, resisting posture that is actually more vulnerable than
the softer posture. Yeah, right.
Henny Flynn: And, and there's something here as well about the
learning that often comes when we are, in some way, not able to
respond to the world in the way that we usually would. So when
we are in pain, emotional or physical pain, and that I'm
going to use limits, enormous inverted commas around that
word, but that influences the way that we are able to show up
in some way. Because, you know, we are not, you know, some of
us, part of us has been stripped away, part of the way that we
perhaps might normally respond to the world has been stripped
away. So what where this thought is going is that, you know, you
were there with, you know, a very hurt part of you that you
needed to look after, which also meant that you weren't able just
to kind of stand your ground, and, you know, be a rigid,
immovable force in the face of the waves, because the ways
we're not going to let you do that, because you only had one
leg, literally to stand on. So there's something as well about
how, you know, when we find ourselves in these places, which
are very vulnerable, either emotionally or physically
vulnerable, that we also can learn stuff like this, you know,
this beautiful lesson. I'm going I'm going around this very, very
carefully, because I don't, I don't really like you know,
those memes that you get of, you know, what hurts you makes you
stronger, and stuff like that. I think that's that's entirely
unhelpful. But I think from my own experience, and listening to
you, there is the wisdom that comes from these times when we
are in some other way more fragile.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate what you're saying.
And I think that that was part of what I wanted to say early on
in our conversation is there are lots of things that we, we that
are scary, and I think I don't want to minimise fear. I don't I
feel like it's important for us to recognise that, yeah, there
are scary things that are real and true and not just figments
of our imagination, although I do want to talk about that, too.
That about the spiral of fear. I think that there's something
important there too. But I want to start by saying, Yeah, I want
to honour Fear is an important emotion. Fear is a protector,
fear is a signaler of alertness.
And I think that I am not advocating, you know, sort of
blind diving into things that are unsafe, let me say that
okay. And and so, yeah, you know, like I chose to get into
the ocean with an injured foot.
However, it's been healing for, you know, like I measured the
wrist and i Something I sometimes call a safe risk,
right? It's making choices that are grounded in our own sense of
ourselves and our own sense of our reach our capacity.
Henny Flynn: So there's something here about you know,
this. Oh, God, I can't remember who is who came up with it, but
their hand brain
Susan McCulley: model Oh, yeah.
Dan, Dan Siegel, Dan Siegel.
Henny Flynn: And you know this when we are in a place of fear
for those listening, you won't know that I'm, I've got my thumb
tucked in against the palm of my hand and my fingers curled over
my thumb. And Dan Siegel's model is that, you know, this is the
brain. And that when you lift up your fingers, it's like you're
switching off the prefrontal cortex part of your brain you're
thinking, rationalising, creative part of the brain. And
that's what happens, isn't it?
When we're in fear, we lose, we literally lose this part of our
cognitive function, this part of the brain flip, flip your lid,
flip your lid? Yeah, and we are and we are in that lizard brain,
you know, deep in the, in the limbic system. And what you're
talking about here, is, in the face of something that is scary,
how am I going? What is happening with my foot? How does
this influence the rest of my life? Who am I, if my foot
doesn't heal, you know, all of those fears, to still within
that, to be able to practice the art of maintaining calm and
coming home to yourself sufficiently that you can switch
this cognitive creative part of the brain back on and be able to
take a calculated risk, you know, based on what you know
about your body based on what you know about the sea, the
ocean, based on the who was with you, you know, it's when fear
overwhelms us. And we flip our lid that we lose, you know, we
lose that ability. That's, that's when fear is either doing
exactly what it should be doing, which is telling us to get the
heck out of dodge, or it's completely debilitating us. And,
and so I think that's the thing I know that. Yeah, I mean, it'd
be lovely, I think, while we're talking today to come up and
share with some of the practices that that we use, or that we
know others have taught us.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, yeah. And I also want to, I want to kind
of I don't, I don't know if this is actually a thing. But this is
something that I have recognised with myself, that there's
another sort of in between place, there's the time when my
brain is fully engaged, and my prefrontal cortex is keeping me
calm, and I'm diving into the waves. There's a time there are
times when I flipped my lid, and I've, I've come overwhelmed, and
I fight flight, freeze, fawn, all of the things, any of the
things, I have noticed that there's also this sort of in
between place where I have started to flip my lid. And I am
able to see that I'm doing it, that I see what's happening. And
I do not have access to my resources. And so all I can do
is just sort of hang out with myself in the fear.
Henny Flynn: Oh, I love that.
Oh, I love that. So it
Susan McCulley: feels like they're different. They're three
different fear states that I can be afraid and what I call that
is like, courageous. When I am, I am afraid. And I'm using my
tools, and I'm breathing and I am feeling my body. And I am
well, you know, and there are times where I am just like, flat
out and I can't even function.
And then there's this in between space. And I want to just notice
this note this, in that if you find yourself in a place where
you can't You don't you don't seem to be able to remember your
resources or whatever. Even just observing yourself in a fear
state is a tool. Yeah. Even if you're not really if even if the
gears aren't completely engaged.
I just have noticed that that is placed at that I'm a just enough
outside of what's happening to see that it's happening and
like, Oh, that's a mess that she's in right now. And let's,
let's just be with that until we can get the gears.
Henny Flynn: I had a very direct experience of that which I've
actually shared on it on the episode I did with Soulla
Demetriou, which was Hmm. So before I dive into that, though,
what you've just said reminds me of the tower Brack phrase this
to being able just to go, Okay, this to this, this difficult
thing this to belongs, this too is here. And so that's that is
it is a tool, because it's observing it. But it's it's
almost it's the tool that comes from being in that place of
noticing. And that's the practice, isn't it? That's that
that's where I think, you know, we, you know, every yoga
mindfulness, movement, mindset, teacher, coach, whatever, we'll
talk about the importance of the practice, because that's the
thing that means that when we are in dire need, we have the
skills, we have the, you know, the muscle memory, to remember
how to care for ourselves, or what thing to put in place. And
even in that middle place that you talk about? That is that is
a representation of the practice really coming to the fore, I
think, because it's, it's just retaining enough of our self
capital S, to be able to stand beside the parts that are
flipping out. Yeah. And hold them safely. Yeah. And that,
yeah, the story that I shared was Suhler. So apologies to
anyone who listened to that episode was I had my first and
so far only panic attack client.
This was about a year ago, or earlier this year, even climbing
up a very steep, extraordinarily muddy, long bank, Hill that had
no reference points on it. It was just mud basically. And I,
yeah, I cut a long story short, ended up hands on my hands and
knees, with this voice in my head shouting, listen to me. And
me just absolutely rigid with fear. And I know, I don't like
going up and down steep things.
Like I know, I know, that's always been a thing. And I think
this was just for whatever reason, the conditions were such
that that part of me just could not cope. But what was so
fascinating, and Anton said, Anton was amazing, he just stood
by, but what he said is that the whole time I was like, they're
kind of gripping the mud and like, sobbing furiously, I mean,
just shaking. I was also so this is great. I can really see
what's going on. Because there was a part of me, that was
separate, that was calm, and that was saying, oh, gosh, okay,
this is happening and, and in the sort of, you know, the kind
of what to do next bit, I was able to hold enough of my self
in place to say, if I can get to that tree, I'll be okay. And I
was able to get to the tree. And then when I got to the tree, I
was literally, like, sort of crying, just saying to Anton,
like, Oh, my God, this is gonna be so brilliant when I'm dealing
with clients, because like, I really understand, like this
feeling. But it was, it was the I feel it was the practices that
I've put in place that have helped me through that.
Susan McCulley: I think that's right. I mean, I think that the
larger point that you're you're pointing to that I think is is
worth underscoring is that the reason that we practice in low
stakes environments, when things don't matter, which is, you
know, what I do in my movement classes, what you do with your
clients and meditation, you know, all of those practices
that we do when when it doesn't matter, when you know, I'm just
sitting with my tea and sitting in the sunshine and noticing my
breath. It's doing those things that make that's kind of
hilarious, though, that you're like, Oh, I'm generating content
as I am having a panic attack. I totally I totally get you you
are so my sister Because I I've had similar experiences. So so
that's why we practice. Yeah, you know, we, I teach movement
classes, and I don't teach people movement to become better
movers. I really don't. I teach people movement so that they can
be in their bodies when they need to be in their bodies. And
we do it in a play in a way, that's fun. And it doesn't
matter if, but when, when it comes down to it, it's the
practice that gives us something to hold on to in the midst of
atonement. Right. And, and, and when all other resources start
to feel like they're falling away. So that's a genius story.
Henny Flynn: It was a totally it was it was fascinating. I mean,
it genuinely was absolutely fascinating. And I was
terrified.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, right. And I think that the other thing
that this points to, is that our own deep fear, our own hurt, and
trauma pain, are the source of our compassion and connection to
others. And it's another reason to turn toward it is to allow
myself to be really with this.
And that will allow me to be with the people around me who
are in similar states, perhaps when I am not, but I know that
for myself. I see somebody in a boot or a cast now. And I am
just like, Oh, my friend, I understand the suffering here in
a way that I couldn't have before. And that's one of the I
think it's one of the gifts of, of fear and struggle. And and I
don't want and I'm not sugarcoating this, I really want
to be clear, I am not trying to do any kind of override toxic
relativity, right? Yeah, yeah.
Instead, I am, I'm inviting that. It is these things that
stretch our hearts open in a way that nothing else can. So
Henny Flynn: so I'm, you know, from this experience of the
physical fear into the experience of some of the fears
that I am noticing, swirling around me here in the UK. And I
know, from other conversations that you and I have had that,
you know, there are fears swirling around in the States,
too, of course. And I think the, I'd like to invite them in. And
just to explore how it is to turn towards those fears as
well, because they can feel they can feel so debilitating,
because we have no control. And so one of the things about, you
know, when I was on that hillside, I recognise, I have a
point of control here. And the point of control is I can get to
that tree. That was my point of control. And that helped me
start to restore your point of control was, I can get myself
into the ocean. And from there, I can experience that this body
in a different way. When, you know we have right now it's it's
September 2022. In the UK, the Queen has just died. And that
has been, you know, it's had a huge impact across the country.
I mean, globally, it's had an impact, but you know, huge
impact. So there's a transition there. There's also there's a
new prime minister in place. And I'm mindful of different
political viewpoints. But that is a transition to there's also
there's a, an energy crisis occurring at the moment. There's
there's a financial challenge the pound, the value of the
pound has dropped to its lowest point for however many years,
decades and decades and decades.
So there's a lot of this kind of external stuff. going on. And I
am mindful, even though I don't watch the news, and I don't
consume the news in any way, other than through conversation
with others. I know it's impacting me. And that kind of
fear feels much harder, actually, because it's nameless,
faceless, odourless. How do we how do we know? How do we know?
Yeah, whether we can turn our backs on it? Or not? Like, you
know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, is it?
Susan McCulley: Yeah, I think this is, I'm so glad you brought
this up. And I think I think to start this, this part of this
conversation, what I'm going to do is make it smaller, okay. And
suggest that this is a function of the mind. And, and so I'll
tell, I mean, my, my story, in a personal level is, you know, I
really listen to my sensations.
And I feel a twinge in my foot, a little odd sensation. And my
mind takes that like a puppy with a stick, and runs and runs
to the worst possible imaginable situation. So see if this
resonates, I mean, in from in my situation, I'm like, my foot
will never heal, I will never walk normally. Again. I mean,
like, all of these things, I will never dance again, I will
never buy Baba. And a friend of mine calls this fortune telling
is like this, this, this weaving of this intricate story of how
this is going to go and what this means. When it's based on
nothing, like you say, it's just this this ephemeral. I sometimes
call it it's like nailing jello to a wall, you know, like that.
It's just you can't pin it down.
Except to save yourself, Oh, look at that story that I'm
telling bear. And that, to me can be helpful. And from an I
know, for me, in the States, I mean, I would say since 2016,
that I have grappled with the spiral of the fear that goes on
the fortune telling fear, the imagination of, you know,
jackbooted thugs, kicking in the door, and, you know, rights
being eviscerated and I just go into this spiral. And it's
really, I think that it is an overactive function of trying to
protect me, my brain saying, you know, let's be prepared for the
worst. But it really, that really doesn't help me it really
it just swamps my little boat and there I am just sitting in
the, you know, up to the gunnels in the, in the water. And so, I
think that similarly to what we were saying before, it's like,
Can Can enough of me be separate from the twinge in my foot? And
all of the unrest, the transitions? The the things that
are foreboding all around us all the time? Really? Can we say
what, where's my tree? Like, where's my point of control what
what is my sometimes you will call it the sphere of influence.
This you know, what is my sphere? What part of this is
mine? Yeah. And, and, and those parts like, like you on the side
of the muddy Hill, like dive into that point, like, focus on
that and go there. For me determining what do I have the
resources, what is mine to do?
And what is and what can I recognise of this is not mine,
and I And outside of my sphere,
Henny Flynn: and, yeah, and there's something, I think
there's I love all of that, of course, of everything that you
just said. And, and the, the kind of wrapper is acknowledge
the fear. So there's something, I'm reminded that on Saturday,
we had dinner with a group of friends, people that we, in the
village where I used to live and old friends, you know, lovely,
Easy Company, and somebody shared that they are really
worried about what's happening to the country. And it was so
interesting, you know, like, I'm honouring that, and wondering
what she said, I'm wondering, what provoked that phrase, that
comment. And I'm also really mindful of what does that do to
her system, to, to be feeling that, and, you know, I am far
enough through my training, and my experience of working with
others to know, wasn't my job to wade on in and get, what I think
you really ought to be doing is doing some breath work, you
know, wasn't mine, it was hers, it belonged to her. But, but
recognising that it is important that we have a space that is
state safe enough to say, I am afraid of this, to be able to
hold that. And then, as you say, to come into the place where you
can go okay, and now where is my point of control? What actually
belongs to me? And how does that actually show up in my life? And
one of the things that I was sort of saying on Saturdays. My
sense is that throughout the generations, there will have
been innumerable times where communities have said that this
is the end of everything, as we know it. And, of course, there
have been catastrophic events that have happened in the world,
you know, we all are deeply aware of those. And there have
also not being those events haven't actually happened. But
we've been afraid that they might, but they haven't. And the
that this is sort of tapping into that kind of negativity
bias that we have, you know, that the sort of the thing that
that helps keep us fearful, helps keep us alive. Is that
negativity bias, where we look at past events and we go, yes,
we could have jackbooted thugs coming to the door, because I,
because that has happened. It has also not happened many,
many, many times. So there's something about retaining this
kind of balance without minimising goes back to what you
were saying at the beginning without minimising or or
trivialising the fear that we're feeling that's really useful for
me, actually, that little thought circuit. I really hope
that made sense.
Susan McCulley: Well, I think let me just let me see if I'm,
let me reflect back and see if this is what I'm hearing. That,
I think in the case of your friend of my feelings about my
foot and my country, the fear is real. Even if the story isn't
Henny Flynn: real, yes, beautiful. That's it. Yeah. And
Susan McCulley: so and so this is why I appreciate my friends
turn of the fortune telling.
It's like the sensation the fear is true and real. And I don't I,
you know, there's, I know, I have been in situations where I
have attempted to express the fear of something like that,
like, I think that the country may be changed forever. And
somebody says, Don't be silly.
Like, that's not going to happen or that's just you're just
catastrophizing or whatever.
Which may be true. Believe me, it's totally possible. However,
the kernel of the fear is real.
And that is where for me, if I can honour that, and and what If
I have my re at least some thread of resources around me,
one of the things I do is if I notice myself spiralling into
this enormous story to bring myself back to like, the
physical sensation, Oh, honey, you're afraid? What is it? What
does that fear feel like? And so focus on literally what's
happening in my body. Because that's real, that's real. And it
is this sort of this, it's holding the paradox of, of the,
the story, in the end the emotion, and allowing myself to
be with just the emotion and not getting on the story, the train
that's gonna, you know, take me off goals. Yes. Right. And so I
think that my observation is, and my experience is that when I
stay with the physical sensation of an emotion, or an injury, or
the muddy hillside, if I stay with a physical sensation, that
allows me to see it for what it is that it is true and real and
absolutely undeniable. And it's also changing all the time. And
that fear when we see it, from the story perspective, can feel
solid, and on movable, and yeah, and that leads to more fear,
because then it's like, oh, you know, there's no hope here.
Henny Flynn: So I have a phrase, which was, which resonates with
this thing, which is fear is like Velcro. And the thing with
fear is that when we when we just allow it to be this unruly,
more, inside does, it is like Velcro, it will attach to lots
of other things, and create fears there were there may not
have been any, like source of anxiety or angst or fear. And
the challenge with Velcro, or those, you know, those kind of
birds that you get this time of year, you know, the challenge
with them, is that when you Yeah, when you kind of pull them
away, particularly those burrs, they often leave part of
themselves behind that you might not notice until later when you
go oh god, my foots really, really scratchy. There's a bit
of that Burr in there, in the same way that we leave, like
some of the like the trace of that fear behind to agitate us
another time. Or we can actually, you know, you can sort
of pull threads away from the thing that it's attached to, it
actually kind of damages the thing it's attached to so you
know, fear. When it's yeah, when it's just sort of allowed, free
rein can get big as well.
Because drink brings more things in. Whereas if we turn toward
it, if we face toward it, the minute we start to feel that
internal sensation, we still have the spaciousness to be able
to go, okay. I'm feeling this.
What what is? What is this telling me? Is this? Where is
the story coming from? Is it an old story that's just got stuck
on to a new thing that's happened? Or is it? Or is it
something that I really, really need to be paying attention to?
And I need to be taking action because this fear demands
action. And this is I think this is where the that kind of
subtlety starts to come in as well is like knowing the fear is
real. The story may come from multiple sources. And the choice
that I have in how to respond to this experience depends on what
I notice about the feelings, what I notice about the stories
and how I employ my cognitive creative, empathetic ability to
help We move through this, rather than just having a knee
jerk reaction, what I'm noticing?
Susan McCulley: Yeah, and I think, I think you are right on.
And I think there's a little step before there,
Henny Flynn: okay.
Susan McCulley: I think that there is a place before before I
am able to say, what is this here to tell me? What, what is
the net like you'd like you on the hill, like, the next thing
this is the next best step for me to take is more basic than
that is just like, the just with almost no words like pre verbal,
of my, my heart feels tight. I, it feels prickly in my, on the
outside of my foot. And it's moving. And I'm putting words on
things that that in the in the moment of it, you know, I feel
flush. I mean, I have a physical sensation when I read certain
headlines in my stomach, right.
And, and so and, and I don't even necessarily have good
descriptors for it. I think that the first thing in order to kind
of get my feet on the ground, no pun intended, is to, to, to just
drop into what the physical sensation. And that's what
allows my brain to come online.
Yeah, to then get to what you're talking about, which I think is,
is that when our real emotional intelligence, intellectual
intelligence, our our creativity, our our experience,
then can come into play.
Henny Flynn: So when I was on that muddy hillside, the thing
that brought me back enough to begin to observe myself was the
feel of the cold, wet mud and my hands plunged because I'd fallen
word, I'd fallen myself to my knees. My hands plunged in that
cold, wet mud. And I remember a very clear thought of feeling
the sensation, noticing the sensation. So it wasn't a
thought it was a feeling the feeling of noticing the
sensation of the mud on my hands. And, yes, absolutely 100%
It's that it's the noticing of what is going on in our body.
The moment that we can. And that's the other thing, isn't
it, it's, you know, it's very easy to then trip up into the
inner critic and the inner judge that goes, I really should have
clocked that bit faster. I should have known I really ought
to be paying more attention, all of that stuff. But actually,
just in the moment that we notice going this too. Okay,
this and feeling this. And that, I think that's sort of what I'm
talking about, really, with the spaciousness is the and
actually, that's also the first point at which we exert choice.
Because I, I had a choice on that hillside. Part of me would
have really loved just to have absolutely let rip. I mean,
there was a part of me, I mean, I did, but there's part of me
that could have taken it a lot further. And and that would have
been okay, if that had been the choice that I had chosen. But
there was that moment of choice of I can, I can feel the mud on
my hands and coming back into the body. So I think, yeah, no
judgement, no judgement, no judgement, endless compassion,
turning toward whatever it is that we are experiencing in that
moment. And noticing, yeah, if we just do that, that's a
amazing gift.
Susan McCulley: I mean, meditation talk, teachers talk
about this all the time. That if You miss 1000 breaths. And, and
you up notice one? That's the practice. Yeah, it is that
moment of of noticing. And, and, and yeah, and if you go for
decades, not noticing. And that's okay. I mean, that's,
that's part of it, and it's in it is just that choice to, to
pay attention and and for me personally, I tend to go to my
senses is like, you know, what am I what am I feeling on my
skin? What am I smelling? What am I hearing? What am I seeing?
What am I? What am I feeling and sometimes it takes me a hell of
a long time to get there. Yeah.
And, and I think that it is true for for whatever fears that
we're facing, whether we're afraid about a relationship, or
a political situation, or a physical pain, you know,
whatever it is that these, the experience of fear on some level
is not is the same. And handy that because we can use the same
tools to help ourselves and support ourselves. And I and I
think the other thing that I'm, I'm curious about your, your,
your interaction with your friend, because one of the
things that I have been noticing, in particular in the
past couple of months, in my own experiences, is that I really
rely on trusted people to remind me of the things that I know,
but have forgotten. So I have friends who sometimes reach out
and just say, breathe, honey, breathe, breathe, breathe,
breathe. Right. And, you know, remind me how much of this is,
is the story and how much of this is what's actually
happening? I think I think that there is a place for that, for
us to step in for each other, and give us perhaps more
information, sometimes information is incredibly
helpful to give us a rope to pull ourselves out of a fear.
No, I had another another x ray on my foot yesterday. And it
gave me more information. And it was so helpful.
Henny Flynn: I think I think that is true. Absolutely. And,
and I to see it, experience it with friends and and in a way
that's that that's sort of part of what this is. I mean, this
is, you know, this is, I've often said, doing the podcast is
a bit like me getting kind of therapy because it's, you know,
even if I'm sort of talking with myself, it's it's a therapeutic
process of like my own learning as well as sharing reflections
with others. And, you know, as I'm listening to you, I can feel
my cogs wearing. And there is there is also something really
important about where our licences to offer that kind of
guidance or support. And I'm being mindful that sometimes
somebody just needs to say, this is what is going on. This is
what is happening in my in my head. And and I think this is
where the the sort of collective experience starts to become
really important in a slightly different way. Because if our
collective experience is that everyone around us is afraid.
Then the you know, the transference of that energy, you
know, emotional contagion, all of that stuff impacts us, and we
start to notice I'm feeling a bit anxious I'm feeling a bit
afraid I don't really know What's going on, and then we
create a story for ourselves.
Because when we can't see what it is, that's concerning us, we
just know that we feel it. But in exactly the same way, when we
are with people who are calm, who are, you know, mindful of
their emotional experience in the way that you and I have been
talking about today, you know, doing the practice, the more of
us that there are, who are caring in that way for our own
fears, because that's what we're talking about here. The greater
the impact that that has, in terms of emotional contagion on
others, you know, by being a calm Centre, we, even without
saying anything, we support those around us and Oh, my God,
I mean, you see it, I see it a lot with clients, you know,
where, when they are able to attend to their needs, their
inner needs, in a way that is calm and clear and
compassionate. The impact that has on the household is immense.
And I think the same thing is true societally as well. So I
think some headline of that is, sometimes it takes words, and
sometimes it takes just trusting.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. I think that's
absolutely right. And the image that came came to me was, yeah,
fears like Velcro, but so is calm.
Henny Flynn: Calm so as I as you just said that I was like, calm
to me feels like water. In the way that water finds a way, you
know, water is that's better, yes, the only immovable force
because of it's the energy that is inherent within it, and it
will always find a way through
Susan McCulley: and ended it can wet everything that it's on.
Yeah, I like that even I like that better. But I absolutely, I
think you're right, is that sometimes the best thing that we
can do is show up in a settled, peaceful, grounded place, in the
midst of things that are not that way.
Henny Flynn: And, and in, not in a Oh, I really need to be
grounded and settled. So that's, that's what I'm going to project
not in a, you know, rose tinted spectacles or gritted teeth, you
know, everything so crew.
Susan McCulley: Not really, that's not really settled.
That's not
Henny Flynn: really settled.
But, you know, that kind of thing that we can, again, you
know, I think that sort of toxic positivity can start to feed
into that a little bit. Sure.
So, and that is, I suppose, that is the kind of like the depths
of what you've been talking about, you know, the depths of
that attention to what am I feeling physical sensations of
what am I feeling? When we begin there, we begin right deep
inside the influence that that has, like, through our own
system, and then out into the world, I think is, yeah, more
profound.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. So I hear us talking about both the, say,
an acute fear situation, for ourselves or for others. So
really, attending to ourselves when we are in fear. And
sometimes that may be self you know, our own our own situation,
our own experience. And sometimes it's, I've been
infected by somebody else's fear. And, and how do I navigate
that? And and I think that they're similar, but they can be
they can be different for me.
And, and I think that what we're, what I'm hearing is
talking about when things are acute, and they're intense. I
have a certain A tool set. And sometimes it's the the sort of
halfway like, Okay, this is happening. And I recognise it's
happening, I recognise that it's illogical, I recognise all of
that, and yet it is happening.
And, and sometimes it can be that I have the ability to
engage higher levels of tools.
And then there's then there are the situations where we are
stepping into an environment of fear. Which, you know, sometimes
shows up on bumpers, do you have bumper stickers in the UK? Yeah.
So, yeah, sometimes I'm behind a vehicle and go, oh, there's a
lot of fear in that in that truck. And I, and it can, it can
trigger fear in me. But can I tend to that before it starts to
become a bigger thing?
Henny Flynn: And yes, so the, the contagion of fear. There's
also the inherited stories of fear as well, I have a feeling
we might be needing to do another kind of episode on this,
actually, Susan at some point, because, because I think that's
also a big part of it, like, Who does this belong to that that,
for me, can be a really powerful question, Who does this belong
to? And it's something that I use prod, Anton, he gets
mentioned quite a lot on the podcast, but it is time, you
know, there are times when I will notice I'm really sensing
something. And then I, and I'm responding, reacting. And then
it's like, hang on a minute, is this mine? Yeah. Is that
actually mine? I want to think it is, oh, it's yours. I'm just
picking up on what you're feeling. Okay. I'll just leave
that with you. And then I can come back into compassion. And
then I can, you know, I might still find it annoying, because
I'm human. But I can recognise that I'm finding it annoying,
rather than being annoyed by it.
But there's also the part of that the wider fear stepping
into an environment of fear is the financial impact of stuff
going on around us globally.
There is a direct impact on people's livelihoods on the way
that people live their life, you know, how they pay the bills,
how, and, and so I think there's also something about not some of
those fears, like you said, right at the very beginning, I
suppose is just sort of bringing us back to that start point is
that some of those fears are, they are real, they are
absolutely real. So when you can see that there is a direct
impact that you're needing to shop at a different shop or shop
less or buy different food or whatever the thing is, or really
think about how you use energy in your home. All of that is
totally real. And so then it's about how, how to recognise
where your point of control is around the reality of the
experience that you're noticing.
And, and be able to say, this is hard. But not the flip lid,
catastrophe, catastrophic. The world is ending. This is hard.
This is hard. Just this is hard.
And there is stuff right now.
Which is really hard. Yeah.
Yeah. And yeah, maybe that's, I mean, gosh, that seems so funny
place to end, but actually, it feels like also the most
compassionate kind of place, which is just hand on heart.
This is hard.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And I think
the acknowledgement that it's hard and it's human. And and if
I'm not feeling fear right now, I have felt it. I mean, I think
that that's, that's right. And, and I think that whether whether
it's mine or whether it's somebody else's, whether it is
within my control or with with that without my control, outside
of my control. It really does come back to the
acknowledgement. To have the realness of it, and then what do
we do from there? Right? It's like this whole feeling of like,
don't be silly, that's a figment is, is so unhelpful. And, and,
and hand on heart, this is hard, is the essence of all of our
experiences with fear, whether they are, you know, based in
reality or not. And, and I think that is that acknowledgement and
recognition that gives us the space to then be able to make it
to the tree, and to dive into the wave. And, and just take the
next step and and I think that, you know, just as a sort of
maybe a parting mentioned is to say that we've all been trained
in fear in different ways. Yes, and, and so that some people's
fear, they skip right over fear and go to anger. Or some people
go into total collapse, or, you know, we've all been, we all
have a variety of experiences with fear. And sometimes when we
are resourced, investigating that when fears not like in
conflagration in our underpants.
Right, when, like, let's let me like, let me invest in what is
my relationship to fear when I'm not in the middle of it? And for
me, for example, catastrophic predictions is how I was trained
in fear. And so just recognising that in a non fear situation
gives me Oh, look, look at that.
That's what's happening here.
Oh, honey, this is hard. And, and this can also help me
navigate other people's fear.
Henny Flynn: Yes, yes. Yes, exactly. Because then it's about
the recognition that we all have different fear responses. So
understanding our own step one, then recognising other people
don't necessarily have the same responses as there is a, there's
a piece of research that I came across a few years ago, which
was around the fight flight, freeze response, and basically
saying that we will all use all of them at different times. But
this, this particular piece of research was indicating that we
all have a kind of base point.
So when the stuff really hits the fan, that is our fear
response. And some mine is flight, like I am, I just want
to get out of dodge. And, and it feels like the most sensible,
logical, only thing to do. So I'm even, you know, I think that
I'm thinking with this bit of my brain, it's that. And, you know,
and I think sort of having growing awareness of what that
response is, is really helpful because, you know, in an
environment where it's like the, you know, the people who are the
preppers you know, that the environmental sort of
catastrophe preppers, you know, their, their response is, hunker
down in a bunker. So understanding like, what might
be driving the behaviour that gets you to that point, where
that feels like the best step for you and not criticising
people who have hunkered down in a bunker that, you know, may
well be the right choice, you know, but, but yeah, just
understanding what is it and I love what you said about that we
have been trained in in different ways, you know, in the
language of fear, our response to it will be very different.
So, honouring that.
Susan McCulley: I'm curious, I think you're right, that this
topic is enormous. So I'm, as we, as we begin to wrap up, I'm,
I feel like what I'm inviting was anybody who's listening, you
know, reach out to Henny or to me but and what is it about
fear? Like maybe share what is what is your what how were you
trained in fear? How, like, what's your, your, your fear
lineage? Right, yeah. And what do you notice about your own
experiences? And I think that there could be another a follow
on what do you how do you how do you deal with other people's
fear?
Henny Flynn: Yeah, gorgeous.
Susan McCulley: So, yeah, I mean, I really invite you, dear
listeners to, to circle back to us and tell us what, what you
notice about yourself? And, and what, how you how you support
yourself how you maybe don't support yourself? You know, I
would I would just love to hear this, it feels like a really
rich and important conversation in the sense that the more we
understand that both our own and each other's that we can be more
like, Oh, honey, look at all of those angry bumper stickers, you
are so afraid. Right?
Henny Flynn: And I mean, on a very sort again, you know, back
to me on that muddy hillside.
Anton is deeply compassionate about that fear of mine, and
gives me all the space I need.
So when we're about to go up something that's really steep or
come down something that's really steep, he will always
say, okay, and then I will say, Yep. And now I know, I have my
stick, and I, you know, I have like various tools. But the
other thing that I will say to him is, and if I do claps on my
hands and knees, I know that I can get up again. And he lets
me. So there's also something here about the compassion that
comes with allowing someone else to take themselves through
whatever the process is that they need to go through. And not
the thing that you referenced before of generally, like it
comes out of trying to make everything okay for the other
person and going oh, don't be ridiculous. If there's nothing
to worry about here. You'll be fine. That doesn't help. Yeah.
So this is all about honouring, honouring ourselves our
experience and honouring the fear. You know, it's just a part
of us. You still deserve love
Susan McCulley: this too this too
Henny Flynn: this too. Oh.
So thank you, everybody, and for listening for being here. And
for those of you on YouTube right now, sticking with me and
Susan, as we rambled at the end, I think we both kind of
forgotten we were still recording. But that point, that
question that Susan, and I will Susan, kind of led us to, we
would really, really love to hear what your reflections are
on. What are your languages of fear? What do you recognise
within yourself, the may then already does support you in how
you recognise and support others in the way that they manage the
fears that they're experiencing.
There's something really, really rich about this. And I was
laughing with Susan because my degree was in sociology, with
psychology, and a lot of that, obviously, is about doing
studies like this and creating hypotheses about what drives our
behaviour. So there's a little part of me that still 20 at
University. She's really curious about what might come out of
this and, you know, just email me, Henny at Henny flynn.co.uk
and share your thoughts about fear or come and join the Henny
Flynn group on Facebook. Just search Henny Flynn group or come
and find me on Instagram and you can always message me on there.
So it's at Henny underscore Flynn. And yeah, I'd really
really love to hear from you and get your thoughts to help co
create this next episode that will do at some point in the
future. All right, my darlings.
I sent you a hug and a wave