1 00:00:02,069 --> 00:00:04,259 Susan McCulley: I have noticed that there's also this sort of 2 00:00:04,290 --> 00:00:11,160 in between place where I have started to flip my lid. And I am 3 00:00:11,189 --> 00:00:17,820 able to see that I'm doing it, that I see what's happening. And 4 00:00:17,820 --> 00:00:23,699 I do not have access to my resources. And so all I can do 5 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:27,089 is just sort of hang out with myself in the fear. 6 00:00:27,210 --> 00:00:30,179 Henny Flynn: Oh, I love that. 7 00:00:27,210 --> 00:00:30,179 Oh, I love that. So it 8 00:00:30,390 --> 00:00:32,250 Susan McCulley: feels like they're different. They're three 9 00:00:32,250 --> 00:00:34,320 different kinds of fear states. 10 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:40,560 Henny Flynn: Welcome to Season Eight of the podcast that's all 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,799 about deepening our self awareness with profound self 12 00:00:43,799 --> 00:00:48,810 compassion. I'm Henny, I write coach and speak about life 13 00:00:48,810 --> 00:00:53,369 changes. And together with my guests, we'll be exploring ideas 14 00:00:53,369 --> 00:00:57,359 that challenge our thinking underpinned by a bedrock of self 15 00:00:57,359 --> 00:01:02,130 love. Settle in, and listen and see where the episode takes you. 16 00:01:12,060 --> 00:01:16,409 Susan McCulley is about to join me but I'm a little bit late, 17 00:01:16,799 --> 00:01:21,959 getting this episode all set up. 18 00:01:16,799 --> 00:01:26,430 So I've just realised that Susan is literally on her way. So not 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:30,120 too long a preamble for me today. But essentially, we're 20 00:01:26,430 --> 00:01:37,409 going to be talking about something which has deep roots, 21 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:37,409 you know, facing into our fears. 22 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:43,379 And there was a particular blog post that Susan wrote that 23 00:01:43,409 --> 00:01:47,280 inspired me to connect with her again and say, I think this 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,500 might be the topic for our next conversation, Susan will share a 25 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:56,040 lot more about the experience that she had. And it was all to 26 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:02,040 do with her physicality, which as a movement teacher is 27 00:02:02,099 --> 00:02:06,930 immensely important for her. 28 00:02:02,099 --> 00:02:16,199 And, and also tied up with identity as well, I'm sure she 29 00:02:06,930 --> 00:02:19,860 will share and agree with. So this whole topic of facing into 30 00:02:16,259 --> 00:02:25,770 our fears is something that's been bubbling for me over the 31 00:02:19,860 --> 00:02:31,919 last weeks and months. And I'm fairly sure it's going to be 32 00:02:26,490 --> 00:02:34,710 something that has been coming up for an awful lot of people 33 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:38,580 who are listening here as well, there's an awful lot of change 34 00:02:34,710 --> 00:02:44,430 going on around us. And it just feels really pertinent to turn 35 00:02:38,580 --> 00:02:50,669 toward that and just explore it and see what comes from this 36 00:02:44,490 --> 00:02:54,000 conversation. And I can see Susan is here. So I'm going to 37 00:02:50,669 --> 00:02:54,000 pause and then return with her. 38 00:02:58,710 --> 00:03:02,819 Okay, so if I can actually just master the buttons. We are now 39 00:03:02,819 --> 00:03:08,099 recording. There we go. So yes, so I was just Susan is here. 40 00:03:08,129 --> 00:03:13,379 Hurray. Susan. Hello, my darling. It's so good to see 41 00:03:13,379 --> 00:03:20,789 you. And you so good. So Susan, I just had a very quick chat 42 00:03:20,819 --> 00:03:24,750 about this conversation. And if you've listened to our chats 43 00:03:24,750 --> 00:03:28,379 before, then you will know that it is likely to go off in all 44 00:03:28,379 --> 00:03:32,879 manner of directions, but always bring ourselves home to this 45 00:03:33,330 --> 00:03:38,370 core topic that we are going to be discussing today. So settle 46 00:03:38,370 --> 00:03:44,789 in, and let's see where we go. 47 00:03:38,370 --> 00:03:49,830 But there was something that I just wanted to share kind of I 48 00:03:44,789 --> 00:03:52,530 did a very brief intro to this conversation, which I recorded 49 00:03:49,860 --> 00:03:58,050 just before you joined us, Susan. And the thing that I 50 00:03:52,530 --> 00:04:10,770 wanted to add to it is I have really noticed a pool to do an 51 00:03:58,259 --> 00:04:15,360 episode on fear. And I recognise that part of that pool has been 52 00:04:10,770 --> 00:04:21,569 because of noticing some of my own maybe old maybe new fears 53 00:04:15,389 --> 00:04:24,120 coming up and and I've been really kind of mindfully 54 00:04:21,569 --> 00:04:28,199 watching it and just thinking okay, so where's the way in 55 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:34,379 what's what's the root into this? also aware that perhaps 56 00:04:28,199 --> 00:04:40,259 some of my resistance has been the fear has been creating the 57 00:04:34,980 --> 00:04:46,470 resistance and then when I saw your blog post your beautiful, 58 00:04:40,259 --> 00:04:50,220 vulnerable, intensely honest blog post which I will share a 59 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:53,910 link to if that's okay with you in our show notes. I just 60 00:04:50,250 --> 00:05:02,069 thought of That's it. That's the way in so yeah, It's a big one, 61 00:04:53,910 --> 00:05:02,069 isn't it? 62 00:05:03,149 --> 00:05:06,779 Susan McCulley: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's the root 63 00:05:06,810 --> 00:05:14,370 of so much. That is, that happens for us personally. And, 64 00:05:14,699 --> 00:05:22,139 globally, I mean, in every realm, and I just, I am just 65 00:05:22,139 --> 00:05:31,889 back from a week at the ocean. 66 00:05:22,139 --> 00:05:38,699 And it didn't go the way I thought it was gonna go, I'm 67 00:05:31,889 --> 00:05:43,589 healing a broken foot. And I think I just decided that my 68 00:05:39,149 --> 00:05:50,100 foot was going to be well enough for me to be prancing in the 69 00:05:43,589 --> 00:05:56,579 sand. And turns out that that's not what happened. And I spent 70 00:05:50,100 --> 00:06:00,360 much of the week going back and forth between being just 71 00:05:56,579 --> 00:06:06,750 overwhelmed by the beauty all around me. And I just love being 72 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:10,379 near the ocean, the sky, and being afraid about what was 73 00:06:06,750 --> 00:06:17,790 going on with my own healing process and the pain I was 74 00:06:10,379 --> 00:06:20,399 experiencing in my foot. And one day, after, we'd been there for 75 00:06:17,790 --> 00:06:26,069 a couple of days, and I had been avoiding getting into the ocean. 76 00:06:20,399 --> 00:06:30,540 I said to myself, I can do this, I can find a way. And so like, I 77 00:06:26,069 --> 00:06:34,110 got myself near the edge of the ocean, and like, kinda like a 78 00:06:30,569 --> 00:06:37,860 crab walked into the waves, which was I kind of wish 79 00:06:34,110 --> 00:06:41,189 somebody had taken a video because I think, yeah, like, I 80 00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:45,509 know, my bathing suit was full of sand, it was quite the 81 00:06:41,189 --> 00:06:45,509 inelegant affair. But I got in. 82 00:06:46,170 --> 00:06:54,209 And, and there was this sense of freedom in the water. However, I 83 00:06:54,209 --> 00:06:58,560 could not turn my back on the waves, I only was standing on 84 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:05,430 one foot in the water. And I had to continually face the waves, 85 00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:10,889 that and if I chose to ignore them, and turn away from them, 86 00:07:11,550 --> 00:07:17,490 they knocked me out. And if I could turn and face them, and 87 00:07:17,490 --> 00:07:26,430 sometimes even dive into them, I was okay. And I thought of you 88 00:07:26,430 --> 00:07:29,220 Henny and I thought of this conversation, and I thought 89 00:07:29,220 --> 00:07:37,949 about the truth of this. That, I mean, just inherently fear is 90 00:07:37,949 --> 00:07:43,620 something that we, I think we tend to resist and turn away 91 00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:49,379 from, as you were saying, and if we can face it, and turn toward 92 00:07:49,379 --> 00:07:55,500 it. And even if it's messy and kind of awkward, and we're a 93 00:07:55,500 --> 00:08:03,269 little ass over teakettle. That is the way to be with fear. And 94 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:11,519 so I am very interested to dive into this with you literally did 95 00:08:11,519 --> 00:08:14,430 really dive into the fear. 96 00:08:14,579 --> 00:08:22,500 Henny Flynn: And what you don't know is that I called this 97 00:08:22,500 --> 00:08:33,299 episode facing the fear. So the beauty of your story, and the 98 00:08:33,299 --> 00:08:38,039 resonance, you know, this whole idea of like how we turned 99 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:42,000 towards and I know, that's a theme that you and I talk about 100 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,470 a lot with our communities. And we've talked about, you know, 101 00:08:46,470 --> 00:08:49,559 with each other, but this idea of like turning toward always, 102 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,590 you know, turning toward the part that hurts turning toward 103 00:08:53,009 --> 00:08:59,490 the part that's afraid. But what I'm really loving here is the 104 00:08:59,490 --> 00:09:06,570 courageousness, of turning toward the fear itself. And, you 105 00:09:06,570 --> 00:09:12,120 know, many ways those waves could have been a source of fear 106 00:09:12,149 --> 00:09:18,720 for you. And you're nodding, yes, very firmly. So, you know, 107 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,830 the courage of trusting. And it's also there's something else 108 00:09:22,830 --> 00:09:31,710 here about the what's the word the the juxtaposition of two 109 00:09:31,710 --> 00:09:36,539 ideas that are seemingly opposed, you know, the paradox 110 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:43,470 of turning toward the very thing that you can see coming toward 111 00:09:43,470 --> 00:09:46,980 you that might knock you off your feet. Whereas if you've got 112 00:09:46,980 --> 00:09:51,570 your back to it, you don't know what's coming. And so therefore, 113 00:09:51,570 --> 00:09:56,970 you don't have the fear because you don't know it's there. So 114 00:09:56,970 --> 00:10:00,659 there's something or, or or there's some They were really 115 00:10:00,659 --> 00:10:01,980 nice in there. 116 00:10:02,519 --> 00:10:06,120 Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I mean, if we're going 117 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:11,190 to play with this wave thing a little more, there, there was 118 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:17,159 also the physical experience, instead of seeing the wave 119 00:10:17,159 --> 00:10:24,029 coming, and bracing myself, and, like digging in, and letting it 120 00:10:24,059 --> 00:10:33,090 move over me, I mean, instead, go with it, go into it. I was, I 121 00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:40,830 was untouched, really, if I if I was willing to dive into it. And 122 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:46,830 yeah, and so, so this, this feeling of, and we have talked 123 00:10:46,830 --> 00:10:54,120 about this in other context of, of softening into relaxing into 124 00:10:54,120 --> 00:11:00,450 flowing into whatever is facing us, rather than getting this 125 00:11:00,570 --> 00:11:10,259 rigid, resisting posture that is actually more vulnerable than 126 00:11:10,259 --> 00:11:13,139 the softer posture. Yeah, right. 127 00:11:13,259 --> 00:11:16,620 Henny Flynn: And, and there's something here as well about the 128 00:11:17,129 --> 00:11:26,879 learning that often comes when we are, in some way, not able to 129 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:32,309 respond to the world in the way that we usually would. So when 130 00:11:32,340 --> 00:11:39,240 we are in pain, emotional or physical pain, and that I'm 131 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,110 going to use limits, enormous inverted commas around that 132 00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:48,629 word, but that influences the way that we are able to show up 133 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:56,669 in some way. Because, you know, we are not, you know, some of 134 00:11:56,669 --> 00:11:59,429 us, part of us has been stripped away, part of the way that we 135 00:11:59,429 --> 00:12:02,279 perhaps might normally respond to the world has been stripped 136 00:12:02,279 --> 00:12:06,269 away. So what where this thought is going is that, you know, you 137 00:12:06,269 --> 00:12:13,950 were there with, you know, a very hurt part of you that you 138 00:12:13,950 --> 00:12:19,740 needed to look after, which also meant that you weren't able just 139 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:24,990 to kind of stand your ground, and, you know, be a rigid, 140 00:12:25,019 --> 00:12:28,830 immovable force in the face of the waves, because the ways 141 00:12:28,830 --> 00:12:32,940 we're not going to let you do that, because you only had one 142 00:12:32,940 --> 00:12:37,110 leg, literally to stand on. So there's something as well about 143 00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:42,149 how, you know, when we find ourselves in these places, which 144 00:12:42,149 --> 00:12:45,029 are very vulnerable, either emotionally or physically 145 00:12:45,029 --> 00:12:51,389 vulnerable, that we also can learn stuff like this, you know, 146 00:12:51,389 --> 00:12:55,409 this beautiful lesson. I'm going I'm going around this very, very 147 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,309 carefully, because I don't, I don't really like you know, 148 00:12:59,309 --> 00:13:04,169 those memes that you get of, you know, what hurts you makes you 149 00:13:04,169 --> 00:13:07,529 stronger, and stuff like that. I think that's that's entirely 150 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:13,080 unhelpful. But I think from my own experience, and listening to 151 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,330 you, there is the wisdom that comes from these times when we 152 00:13:18,330 --> 00:13:21,509 are in some other way more fragile. 153 00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:24,570 Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate what you're saying. 154 00:13:24,570 --> 00:13:28,710 And I think that that was part of what I wanted to say early on 155 00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:35,070 in our conversation is there are lots of things that we, we that 156 00:13:35,070 --> 00:13:43,259 are scary, and I think I don't want to minimise fear. I don't I 157 00:13:43,259 --> 00:13:47,580 feel like it's important for us to recognise that, yeah, there 158 00:13:47,580 --> 00:13:51,960 are scary things that are real and true and not just figments 159 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,049 of our imagination, although I do want to talk about that, too. 160 00:13:55,379 --> 00:14:00,570 That about the spiral of fear. I think that there's something 161 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:06,450 important there too. But I want to start by saying, Yeah, I want 162 00:14:06,450 --> 00:14:12,480 to honour Fear is an important emotion. Fear is a protector, 163 00:14:12,899 --> 00:14:23,940 fear is a signaler of alertness. 164 00:14:12,899 --> 00:14:32,399 And I think that I am not advocating, you know, sort of 165 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:38,190 blind diving into things that are unsafe, let me say that 166 00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:42,179 okay. And and so, yeah, you know, like I chose to get into 167 00:14:38,190 --> 00:14:42,179 the ocean with an injured foot. 168 00:14:42,779 --> 00:14:46,980 However, it's been healing for, you know, like I measured the 169 00:14:47,009 --> 00:14:50,610 wrist and i Something I sometimes call a safe risk, 170 00:14:51,000 --> 00:15:01,440 right? It's making choices that are grounded in our own sense of 171 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:06,090 ourselves and our own sense of our reach our capacity. 172 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,149 Henny Flynn: So there's something here about you know, 173 00:15:09,149 --> 00:15:13,049 this. Oh, God, I can't remember who is who came up with it, but 174 00:15:13,049 --> 00:15:14,070 their hand brain 175 00:15:14,129 --> 00:15:16,889 Susan McCulley: model Oh, yeah. 176 00:15:14,129 --> 00:15:16,889 Dan, Dan Siegel, Dan Siegel. 177 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:20,879 Henny Flynn: And you know this when we are in a place of fear 178 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:25,379 for those listening, you won't know that I'm, I've got my thumb 179 00:15:25,409 --> 00:15:28,679 tucked in against the palm of my hand and my fingers curled over 180 00:15:28,679 --> 00:15:32,370 my thumb. And Dan Siegel's model is that, you know, this is the 181 00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:36,299 brain. And that when you lift up your fingers, it's like you're 182 00:15:36,299 --> 00:15:39,149 switching off the prefrontal cortex part of your brain you're 183 00:15:39,149 --> 00:15:42,870 thinking, rationalising, creative part of the brain. And 184 00:15:42,929 --> 00:15:46,529 that's what happens, isn't it? 185 00:15:42,929 --> 00:15:50,789 When we're in fear, we lose, we literally lose this part of our 186 00:15:46,529 --> 00:15:54,659 cognitive function, this part of the brain flip, flip your lid, 187 00:15:50,909 --> 00:15:57,389 flip your lid? Yeah, and we are and we are in that lizard brain, 188 00:15:54,690 --> 00:16:05,220 you know, deep in the, in the limbic system. And what you're 189 00:15:57,389 --> 00:16:11,159 talking about here, is, in the face of something that is scary, 190 00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:14,370 how am I going? What is happening with my foot? How does 191 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:18,389 this influence the rest of my life? Who am I, if my foot 192 00:16:14,370 --> 00:16:25,919 doesn't heal, you know, all of those fears, to still within 193 00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:32,279 that, to be able to practice the art of maintaining calm and 194 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:37,500 coming home to yourself sufficiently that you can switch 195 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:41,429 this cognitive creative part of the brain back on and be able to 196 00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:44,519 take a calculated risk, you know, based on what you know 197 00:16:41,429 --> 00:16:48,029 about your body based on what you know about the sea, the 198 00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:54,360 ocean, based on the who was with you, you know, it's when fear 199 00:16:48,029 --> 00:16:57,600 overwhelms us. And we flip our lid that we lose, you know, we 200 00:16:54,360 --> 00:17:04,650 lose that ability. That's, that's when fear is either doing 201 00:16:58,049 --> 00:17:11,579 exactly what it should be doing, which is telling us to get the 202 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:18,630 heck out of dodge, or it's completely debilitating us. And, 203 00:17:11,579 --> 00:17:23,369 and so I think that's the thing I know that. Yeah, I mean, it'd 204 00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:27,029 be lovely, I think, while we're talking today to come up and 205 00:17:23,369 --> 00:17:29,880 share with some of the practices that that we use, or that we 206 00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:29,880 know others have taught us. 207 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:33,660 Susan McCulley: Yeah, yeah. And I also want to, I want to kind 208 00:17:33,660 --> 00:17:36,240 of I don't, I don't know if this is actually a thing. But this is 209 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,200 something that I have recognised with myself, that there's 210 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,849 another sort of in between place, there's the time when my 211 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,230 brain is fully engaged, and my prefrontal cortex is keeping me 212 00:17:49,230 --> 00:17:54,299 calm, and I'm diving into the waves. There's a time there are 213 00:17:54,299 --> 00:17:58,529 times when I flipped my lid, and I've, I've come overwhelmed, and 214 00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:03,119 I fight flight, freeze, fawn, all of the things, any of the 215 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,019 things, I have noticed that there's also this sort of in 216 00:18:07,019 --> 00:18:13,680 between place where I have started to flip my lid. And I am 217 00:18:13,710 --> 00:18:20,309 able to see that I'm doing it, that I see what's happening. And 218 00:18:20,309 --> 00:18:26,220 I do not have access to my resources. And so all I can do 219 00:18:26,250 --> 00:18:29,609 is just sort of hang out with myself in the fear. 220 00:18:29,730 --> 00:18:32,700 Henny Flynn: Oh, I love that. 221 00:18:29,730 --> 00:18:32,700 Oh, I love that. So it 222 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,740 Susan McCulley: feels like they're different. They're three 223 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:39,180 different fear states that I can be afraid and what I call that 224 00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:44,400 is like, courageous. When I am, I am afraid. And I'm using my 225 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,730 tools, and I'm breathing and I am feeling my body. And I am 226 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,859 well, you know, and there are times where I am just like, flat 227 00:18:52,859 --> 00:18:58,650 out and I can't even function. 228 00:18:52,859 --> 00:19:06,539 And then there's this in between space. And I want to just notice 229 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:10,230 this note this, in that if you find yourself in a place where 230 00:19:06,539 --> 00:19:15,059 you can't You don't you don't seem to be able to remember your 231 00:19:10,259 --> 00:19:21,750 resources or whatever. Even just observing yourself in a fear 232 00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:27,299 state is a tool. Yeah. Even if you're not really if even if the 233 00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:27,299 gears aren't completely engaged. 234 00:19:28,289 --> 00:19:32,700 I just have noticed that that is placed at that I'm a just enough 235 00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:36,390 outside of what's happening to see that it's happening and 236 00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:42,869 like, Oh, that's a mess that she's in right now. And let's, 237 00:19:43,079 --> 00:19:48,119 let's just be with that until we can get the gears. 238 00:19:48,450 --> 00:19:53,549 Henny Flynn: I had a very direct experience of that which I've 239 00:19:53,549 --> 00:19:57,269 actually shared on it on the episode I did with Soulla 240 00:19:57,299 --> 00:20:03,839 Demetriou, which was Hmm. So before I dive into that, though, 241 00:20:04,410 --> 00:20:08,940 what you've just said reminds me of the tower Brack phrase this 242 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:15,990 to being able just to go, Okay, this to this, this difficult 243 00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:21,809 thing this to belongs, this too is here. And so that's that is 244 00:20:22,170 --> 00:20:26,579 it is a tool, because it's observing it. But it's it's 245 00:20:26,579 --> 00:20:31,500 almost it's the tool that comes from being in that place of 246 00:20:31,529 --> 00:20:35,099 noticing. And that's the practice, isn't it? That's that 247 00:20:35,099 --> 00:20:41,099 that's where I think, you know, we, you know, every yoga 248 00:20:41,130 --> 00:20:48,480 mindfulness, movement, mindset, teacher, coach, whatever, we'll 249 00:20:48,509 --> 00:20:52,470 talk about the importance of the practice, because that's the 250 00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:57,180 thing that means that when we are in dire need, we have the 251 00:20:57,180 --> 00:21:03,000 skills, we have the, you know, the muscle memory, to remember 252 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,779 how to care for ourselves, or what thing to put in place. And 253 00:21:06,779 --> 00:21:13,109 even in that middle place that you talk about? That is that is 254 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,539 a representation of the practice really coming to the fore, I 255 00:21:18,539 --> 00:21:27,150 think, because it's, it's just retaining enough of our self 256 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:33,269 capital S, to be able to stand beside the parts that are 257 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,819 flipping out. Yeah. And hold them safely. Yeah. And that, 258 00:21:38,819 --> 00:21:43,230 yeah, the story that I shared was Suhler. So apologies to 259 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:49,319 anyone who listened to that episode was I had my first and 260 00:21:49,349 --> 00:21:57,119 so far only panic attack client. 261 00:21:49,349 --> 00:22:02,670 This was about a year ago, or earlier this year, even climbing 262 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:10,380 up a very steep, extraordinarily muddy, long bank, Hill that had 263 00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:19,980 no reference points on it. It was just mud basically. And I, 264 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:24,809 yeah, I cut a long story short, ended up hands on my hands and 265 00:22:20,009 --> 00:22:33,329 knees, with this voice in my head shouting, listen to me. And 266 00:22:24,809 --> 00:22:39,390 me just absolutely rigid with fear. And I know, I don't like 267 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:39,390 going up and down steep things. 268 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,299 Like I know, I know, that's always been a thing. And I think 269 00:22:42,299 --> 00:22:47,460 this was just for whatever reason, the conditions were such 270 00:22:47,460 --> 00:22:52,500 that that part of me just could not cope. But what was so 271 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:55,829 fascinating, and Anton said, Anton was amazing, he just stood 272 00:22:55,829 --> 00:23:00,059 by, but what he said is that the whole time I was like, they're 273 00:23:00,509 --> 00:23:06,000 kind of gripping the mud and like, sobbing furiously, I mean, 274 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:15,269 just shaking. I was also so this is great. I can really see 275 00:23:15,599 --> 00:23:22,140 what's going on. Because there was a part of me, that was 276 00:23:22,140 --> 00:23:26,490 separate, that was calm, and that was saying, oh, gosh, okay, 277 00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:30,839 this is happening and, and in the sort of, you know, the kind 278 00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:40,890 of what to do next bit, I was able to hold enough of my self 279 00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:47,910 in place to say, if I can get to that tree, I'll be okay. And I 280 00:23:47,910 --> 00:23:50,339 was able to get to the tree. And then when I got to the tree, I 281 00:23:50,339 --> 00:23:53,009 was literally, like, sort of crying, just saying to Anton, 282 00:23:53,009 --> 00:23:55,589 like, Oh, my God, this is gonna be so brilliant when I'm dealing 283 00:23:55,589 --> 00:23:58,500 with clients, because like, I really understand, like this 284 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:09,119 feeling. But it was, it was the I feel it was the practices that 285 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,130 I've put in place that have helped me through that. 286 00:24:11,490 --> 00:24:14,970 Susan McCulley: I think that's right. I mean, I think that the 287 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,269 larger point that you're you're pointing to that I think is is 288 00:24:18,269 --> 00:24:23,160 worth underscoring is that the reason that we practice in low 289 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,180 stakes environments, when things don't matter, which is, you 290 00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:31,440 know, what I do in my movement classes, what you do with your 291 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,309 clients and meditation, you know, all of those practices 292 00:24:35,309 --> 00:24:38,880 that we do when when it doesn't matter, when you know, I'm just 293 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,960 sitting with my tea and sitting in the sunshine and noticing my 294 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,849 breath. It's doing those things that make that's kind of 295 00:24:47,849 --> 00:24:52,230 hilarious, though, that you're like, Oh, I'm generating content 296 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,779 as I am having a panic attack. I totally I totally get you you 297 00:24:57,779 --> 00:25:05,099 are so my sister Because I I've had similar experiences. So so 298 00:25:05,099 --> 00:25:09,089 that's why we practice. Yeah, you know, we, I teach movement 299 00:25:09,089 --> 00:25:13,289 classes, and I don't teach people movement to become better 300 00:25:13,289 --> 00:25:19,470 movers. I really don't. I teach people movement so that they can 301 00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:25,319 be in their bodies when they need to be in their bodies. And 302 00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:29,339 we do it in a play in a way, that's fun. And it doesn't 303 00:25:29,339 --> 00:25:35,069 matter if, but when, when it comes down to it, it's the 304 00:25:35,069 --> 00:25:39,240 practice that gives us something to hold on to in the midst of 305 00:25:39,299 --> 00:25:44,880 atonement. Right. And, and, and when all other resources start 306 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,809 to feel like they're falling away. So that's a genius story. 307 00:25:50,009 --> 00:25:52,559 Henny Flynn: It was a totally it was it was fascinating. I mean, 308 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:56,789 it genuinely was absolutely fascinating. And I was 309 00:25:56,789 --> 00:25:57,509 terrified. 310 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,640 Susan McCulley: Yeah, right. And I think that the other thing 311 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:08,160 that this points to, is that our own deep fear, our own hurt, and 312 00:26:09,329 --> 00:26:15,000 trauma pain, are the source of our compassion and connection to 313 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:22,349 others. And it's another reason to turn toward it is to allow 314 00:26:22,349 --> 00:26:26,279 myself to be really with this. 315 00:26:22,349 --> 00:26:30,930 And that will allow me to be with the people around me who 316 00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:40,259 are in similar states, perhaps when I am not, but I know that 317 00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:47,009 for myself. I see somebody in a boot or a cast now. And I am 318 00:26:40,259 --> 00:26:54,119 just like, Oh, my friend, I understand the suffering here in 319 00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:59,789 a way that I couldn't have before. And that's one of the I 320 00:26:54,750 --> 00:27:07,079 think it's one of the gifts of, of fear and struggle. And and I 321 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:11,490 don't want and I'm not sugarcoating this, I really want 322 00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:17,670 to be clear, I am not trying to do any kind of override toxic 323 00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:17,670 relativity, right? Yeah, yeah. 324 00:27:18,779 --> 00:27:24,690 Instead, I am, I'm inviting that. It is these things that 325 00:27:24,690 --> 00:27:30,990 stretch our hearts open in a way that nothing else can. So 326 00:27:31,410 --> 00:27:39,750 Henny Flynn: so I'm, you know, from this experience of the 327 00:27:39,779 --> 00:27:48,569 physical fear into the experience of some of the fears 328 00:27:48,569 --> 00:27:53,460 that I am noticing, swirling around me here in the UK. And I 329 00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:57,210 know, from other conversations that you and I have had that, 330 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:03,000 you know, there are fears swirling around in the States, 331 00:28:03,029 --> 00:28:15,119 too, of course. And I think the, I'd like to invite them in. And 332 00:28:15,420 --> 00:28:23,490 just to explore how it is to turn towards those fears as 333 00:28:23,490 --> 00:28:28,859 well, because they can feel they can feel so debilitating, 334 00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:34,230 because we have no control. And so one of the things about, you 335 00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:38,549 know, when I was on that hillside, I recognise, I have a 336 00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:42,359 point of control here. And the point of control is I can get to 337 00:28:42,359 --> 00:28:46,140 that tree. That was my point of control. And that helped me 338 00:28:46,140 --> 00:28:52,079 start to restore your point of control was, I can get myself 339 00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:57,630 into the ocean. And from there, I can experience that this body 340 00:28:57,630 --> 00:29:03,779 in a different way. When, you know we have right now it's it's 341 00:29:03,809 --> 00:29:10,950 September 2022. In the UK, the Queen has just died. And that 342 00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:15,960 has been, you know, it's had a huge impact across the country. 343 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,660 I mean, globally, it's had an impact, but you know, huge 344 00:29:18,660 --> 00:29:25,470 impact. So there's a transition there. There's also there's a 345 00:29:25,470 --> 00:29:30,210 new prime minister in place. And I'm mindful of different 346 00:29:30,210 --> 00:29:37,859 political viewpoints. But that is a transition to there's also 347 00:29:38,910 --> 00:29:44,339 there's a, an energy crisis occurring at the moment. There's 348 00:29:44,369 --> 00:29:48,450 there's a financial challenge the pound, the value of the 349 00:29:48,450 --> 00:29:53,250 pound has dropped to its lowest point for however many years, 350 00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:58,410 decades and decades and decades. 351 00:29:53,279 --> 00:30:06,990 So there's a lot of this kind of external stuff. going on. And I 352 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:11,039 am mindful, even though I don't watch the news, and I don't 353 00:30:06,990 --> 00:30:16,170 consume the news in any way, other than through conversation 354 00:30:11,369 --> 00:30:25,049 with others. I know it's impacting me. And that kind of 355 00:30:16,170 --> 00:30:32,190 fear feels much harder, actually, because it's nameless, 356 00:30:25,829 --> 00:30:35,880 faceless, odourless. How do we how do we know? How do we know? 357 00:30:32,190 --> 00:30:40,470 Yeah, whether we can turn our backs on it? Or not? Like, you 358 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:41,609 know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, is it? 359 00:30:42,210 --> 00:30:45,329 Susan McCulley: Yeah, I think this is, I'm so glad you brought 360 00:30:45,329 --> 00:30:52,289 this up. And I think I think to start this, this part of this 361 00:30:52,289 --> 00:30:59,279 conversation, what I'm going to do is make it smaller, okay. And 362 00:30:59,849 --> 00:31:09,569 suggest that this is a function of the mind. And, and so I'll 363 00:31:09,569 --> 00:31:18,210 tell, I mean, my, my story, in a personal level is, you know, I 364 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:24,779 really listen to my sensations. 365 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:31,980 And I feel a twinge in my foot, a little odd sensation. And my 366 00:31:25,980 --> 00:31:42,210 mind takes that like a puppy with a stick, and runs and runs 367 00:31:32,130 --> 00:31:46,740 to the worst possible imaginable situation. So see if this 368 00:31:42,509 --> 00:31:49,680 resonates, I mean, in from in my situation, I'm like, my foot 369 00:31:46,740 --> 00:31:52,680 will never heal, I will never walk normally. Again. I mean, 370 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:58,230 like, all of these things, I will never dance again, I will 371 00:31:52,680 --> 00:32:04,829 never buy Baba. And a friend of mine calls this fortune telling 372 00:31:58,230 --> 00:32:09,059 is like this, this, this weaving of this intricate story of how 373 00:32:04,859 --> 00:32:15,900 this is going to go and what this means. When it's based on 374 00:32:09,059 --> 00:32:21,150 nothing, like you say, it's just this this ephemeral. I sometimes 375 00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:25,559 call it it's like nailing jello to a wall, you know, like that. 376 00:32:21,150 --> 00:32:25,559 It's just you can't pin it down. 377 00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:31,769 Except to save yourself, Oh, look at that story that I'm 378 00:32:31,799 --> 00:32:38,220 telling bear. And that, to me can be helpful. And from an I 379 00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:43,140 know, for me, in the States, I mean, I would say since 2016, 380 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:50,910 that I have grappled with the spiral of the fear that goes on 381 00:32:50,910 --> 00:32:56,400 the fortune telling fear, the imagination of, you know, 382 00:32:56,490 --> 00:33:03,720 jackbooted thugs, kicking in the door, and, you know, rights 383 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:12,089 being eviscerated and I just go into this spiral. And it's 384 00:33:12,089 --> 00:33:18,359 really, I think that it is an overactive function of trying to 385 00:33:18,359 --> 00:33:23,460 protect me, my brain saying, you know, let's be prepared for the 386 00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:27,930 worst. But it really, that really doesn't help me it really 387 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,799 it just swamps my little boat and there I am just sitting in 388 00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:37,859 the, you know, up to the gunnels in the, in the water. And so, I 389 00:33:37,859 --> 00:33:41,220 think that similarly to what we were saying before, it's like, 390 00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:48,930 Can Can enough of me be separate from the twinge in my foot? And 391 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:55,319 all of the unrest, the transitions? The the things that 392 00:33:56,009 --> 00:34:02,940 are foreboding all around us all the time? Really? Can we say 393 00:34:04,109 --> 00:34:09,449 what, where's my tree? Like, where's my point of control what 394 00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:13,230 what is my sometimes you will call it the sphere of influence. 395 00:34:14,070 --> 00:34:20,400 This you know, what is my sphere? What part of this is 396 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:27,960 mine? Yeah. And, and, and those parts like, like you on the side 397 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:34,739 of the muddy Hill, like dive into that point, like, focus on 398 00:34:34,739 --> 00:34:47,400 that and go there. For me determining what do I have the 399 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:55,380 resources, what is mine to do? 400 00:34:47,400 --> 00:35:02,460 And what is and what can I recognise of this is not mine, 401 00:34:55,380 --> 00:35:02,460 and I And outside of my sphere, 402 00:35:02,699 --> 00:35:06,599 Henny Flynn: and, yeah, and there's something, I think 403 00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:11,880 there's I love all of that, of course, of everything that you 404 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:20,760 just said. And, and the, the kind of wrapper is acknowledge 405 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:27,869 the fear. So there's something, I'm reminded that on Saturday, 406 00:35:27,869 --> 00:35:33,840 we had dinner with a group of friends, people that we, in the 407 00:35:33,869 --> 00:35:37,860 village where I used to live and old friends, you know, lovely, 408 00:35:37,889 --> 00:35:42,780 Easy Company, and somebody shared that they are really 409 00:35:42,780 --> 00:35:47,969 worried about what's happening to the country. And it was so 410 00:35:47,969 --> 00:35:51,960 interesting, you know, like, I'm honouring that, and wondering 411 00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:57,449 what she said, I'm wondering, what provoked that phrase, that 412 00:35:57,449 --> 00:36:04,289 comment. And I'm also really mindful of what does that do to 413 00:36:04,289 --> 00:36:16,679 her system, to, to be feeling that, and, you know, I am far 414 00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:22,800 enough through my training, and my experience of working with 415 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,760 others to know, wasn't my job to wade on in and get, what I think 416 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,000 you really ought to be doing is doing some breath work, you 417 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:36,300 know, wasn't mine, it was hers, it belonged to her. But, but 418 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:44,190 recognising that it is important that we have a space that is 419 00:36:44,190 --> 00:36:53,250 state safe enough to say, I am afraid of this, to be able to 420 00:36:53,250 --> 00:36:58,409 hold that. And then, as you say, to come into the place where you 421 00:36:58,409 --> 00:37:02,789 can go okay, and now where is my point of control? What actually 422 00:37:02,789 --> 00:37:07,590 belongs to me? And how does that actually show up in my life? And 423 00:37:08,969 --> 00:37:13,800 one of the things that I was sort of saying on Saturdays. My 424 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,869 sense is that throughout the generations, there will have 425 00:37:18,869 --> 00:37:26,489 been innumerable times where communities have said that this 426 00:37:26,489 --> 00:37:31,679 is the end of everything, as we know it. And, of course, there 427 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:36,480 have been catastrophic events that have happened in the world, 428 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,760 you know, we all are deeply aware of those. And there have 429 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:47,610 also not being those events haven't actually happened. But 430 00:37:47,610 --> 00:37:51,929 we've been afraid that they might, but they haven't. And the 431 00:37:52,170 --> 00:37:55,829 that this is sort of tapping into that kind of negativity 432 00:37:55,829 --> 00:37:58,199 bias that we have, you know, that the sort of the thing that 433 00:37:58,230 --> 00:38:02,309 that helps keep us fearful, helps keep us alive. Is that 434 00:38:02,309 --> 00:38:05,070 negativity bias, where we look at past events and we go, yes, 435 00:38:05,340 --> 00:38:08,849 we could have jackbooted thugs coming to the door, because I, 436 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:12,389 because that has happened. It has also not happened many, 437 00:38:12,389 --> 00:38:18,510 many, many times. So there's something about retaining this 438 00:38:18,510 --> 00:38:23,369 kind of balance without minimising goes back to what you 439 00:38:23,369 --> 00:38:27,239 were saying at the beginning without minimising or or 440 00:38:27,269 --> 00:38:32,309 trivialising the fear that we're feeling that's really useful for 441 00:38:32,309 --> 00:38:36,239 me, actually, that little thought circuit. I really hope 442 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:37,050 that made sense. 443 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,579 Susan McCulley: Well, I think let me just let me see if I'm, 444 00:38:41,789 --> 00:38:48,119 let me reflect back and see if this is what I'm hearing. That, 445 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:55,889 I think in the case of your friend of my feelings about my 446 00:38:55,889 --> 00:39:04,139 foot and my country, the fear is real. Even if the story isn't 447 00:39:04,139 --> 00:39:07,349 Henny Flynn: real, yes, beautiful. That's it. Yeah. And 448 00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:10,500 Susan McCulley: so and so this is why I appreciate my friends 449 00:39:10,619 --> 00:39:14,760 turn of the fortune telling. 450 00:39:10,619 --> 00:39:21,119 It's like the sensation the fear is true and real. And I don't I, 451 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:24,750 you know, there's, I know, I have been in situations where I 452 00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:28,650 have attempted to express the fear of something like that, 453 00:39:24,750 --> 00:39:34,679 like, I think that the country may be changed forever. And 454 00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:34,679 somebody says, Don't be silly. 455 00:39:35,699 --> 00:39:39,869 Like, that's not going to happen or that's just you're just 456 00:39:39,869 --> 00:39:44,880 catastrophizing or whatever. 457 00:39:39,869 --> 00:39:50,429 Which may be true. Believe me, it's totally possible. However, 458 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:50,429 the kernel of the fear is real. 459 00:39:51,659 --> 00:40:00,449 And that is where for me, if I can honour that, and and what If 460 00:40:00,449 --> 00:40:05,070 I have my re at least some thread of resources around me, 461 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:10,710 one of the things I do is if I notice myself spiralling into 462 00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:17,909 this enormous story to bring myself back to like, the 463 00:40:17,909 --> 00:40:24,570 physical sensation, Oh, honey, you're afraid? What is it? What 464 00:40:24,570 --> 00:40:29,070 does that fear feel like? And so focus on literally what's 465 00:40:29,070 --> 00:40:36,239 happening in my body. Because that's real, that's real. And it 466 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:44,760 is this sort of this, it's holding the paradox of, of the, 467 00:40:44,849 --> 00:40:50,789 the story, in the end the emotion, and allowing myself to 468 00:40:50,789 --> 00:40:55,829 be with just the emotion and not getting on the story, the train 469 00:40:55,829 --> 00:41:00,659 that's gonna, you know, take me off goals. Yes. Right. And so I 470 00:41:00,659 --> 00:41:08,909 think that my observation is, and my experience is that when I 471 00:41:10,409 --> 00:41:16,230 stay with the physical sensation of an emotion, or an injury, or 472 00:41:17,519 --> 00:41:23,099 the muddy hillside, if I stay with a physical sensation, that 473 00:41:23,550 --> 00:41:29,760 allows me to see it for what it is that it is true and real and 474 00:41:30,030 --> 00:41:40,949 absolutely undeniable. And it's also changing all the time. And 475 00:41:41,070 --> 00:41:47,460 that fear when we see it, from the story perspective, can feel 476 00:41:47,460 --> 00:41:56,820 solid, and on movable, and yeah, and that leads to more fear, 477 00:41:56,820 --> 00:42:00,030 because then it's like, oh, you know, there's no hope here. 478 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:07,500 Henny Flynn: So I have a phrase, which was, which resonates with 479 00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:13,230 this thing, which is fear is like Velcro. And the thing with 480 00:42:13,260 --> 00:42:17,639 fear is that when we when we just allow it to be this unruly, 481 00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:24,449 more, inside does, it is like Velcro, it will attach to lots 482 00:42:24,449 --> 00:42:30,210 of other things, and create fears there were there may not 483 00:42:30,210 --> 00:42:36,420 have been any, like source of anxiety or angst or fear. And 484 00:42:36,510 --> 00:42:41,340 the challenge with Velcro, or those, you know, those kind of 485 00:42:41,369 --> 00:42:44,550 birds that you get this time of year, you know, the challenge 486 00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:48,929 with them, is that when you Yeah, when you kind of pull them 487 00:42:48,929 --> 00:42:52,619 away, particularly those burrs, they often leave part of 488 00:42:52,619 --> 00:42:57,000 themselves behind that you might not notice until later when you 489 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,119 go oh god, my foots really, really scratchy. There's a bit 490 00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:03,179 of that Burr in there, in the same way that we leave, like 491 00:43:03,329 --> 00:43:08,400 some of the like the trace of that fear behind to agitate us 492 00:43:08,460 --> 00:43:14,400 another time. Or we can actually, you know, you can sort 493 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,760 of pull threads away from the thing that it's attached to, it 494 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,809 actually kind of damages the thing it's attached to so you 495 00:43:21,809 --> 00:43:28,469 know, fear. When it's yeah, when it's just sort of allowed, free 496 00:43:28,469 --> 00:43:35,519 rein can get big as well. 497 00:43:28,469 --> 00:43:41,280 Because drink brings more things in. Whereas if we turn toward 498 00:43:35,519 --> 00:43:47,699 it, if we face toward it, the minute we start to feel that 499 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:54,119 internal sensation, we still have the spaciousness to be able 500 00:43:47,699 --> 00:43:54,119 to go, okay. I'm feeling this. 501 00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:02,400 What what is? What is this telling me? Is this? Where is 502 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,599 the story coming from? Is it an old story that's just got stuck 503 00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:11,610 on to a new thing that's happened? Or is it? Or is it 504 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,760 something that I really, really need to be paying attention to? 505 00:44:15,420 --> 00:44:19,110 And I need to be taking action because this fear demands 506 00:44:19,170 --> 00:44:23,369 action. And this is I think this is where the that kind of 507 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:31,920 subtlety starts to come in as well is like knowing the fear is 508 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:39,869 real. The story may come from multiple sources. And the choice 509 00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:46,920 that I have in how to respond to this experience depends on what 510 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,420 I notice about the feelings, what I notice about the stories 511 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:59,639 and how I employ my cognitive creative, empathetic ability to 512 00:44:59,639 --> 00:45:02,849 help We move through this, rather than just having a knee 513 00:45:02,849 --> 00:45:06,389 jerk reaction, what I'm noticing? 514 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,920 Susan McCulley: Yeah, and I think, I think you are right on. 515 00:45:12,599 --> 00:45:15,179 And I think there's a little step before there, 516 00:45:15,210 --> 00:45:15,719 Henny Flynn: okay. 517 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,360 Susan McCulley: I think that there is a place before before I 518 00:45:21,389 --> 00:45:27,449 am able to say, what is this here to tell me? What, what is 519 00:45:27,449 --> 00:45:31,139 the net like you'd like you on the hill, like, the next thing 520 00:45:31,170 --> 00:45:37,019 this is the next best step for me to take is more basic than 521 00:45:37,019 --> 00:45:43,889 that is just like, the just with almost no words like pre verbal, 522 00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:53,489 of my, my heart feels tight. I, it feels prickly in my, on the 523 00:45:53,489 --> 00:45:58,829 outside of my foot. And it's moving. And I'm putting words on 524 00:45:58,829 --> 00:46:03,119 things that that in the in the moment of it, you know, I feel 525 00:46:03,119 --> 00:46:07,590 flush. I mean, I have a physical sensation when I read certain 526 00:46:07,590 --> 00:46:14,489 headlines in my stomach, right. 527 00:46:07,590 --> 00:46:18,809 And, and so and, and I don't even necessarily have good 528 00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:24,840 descriptors for it. I think that the first thing in order to kind 529 00:46:18,809 --> 00:46:30,480 of get my feet on the ground, no pun intended, is to, to, to just 530 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:34,860 drop into what the physical sensation. And that's what 531 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,860 allows my brain to come online. 532 00:46:34,860 --> 00:46:37,860 Yeah, to then get to what you're talking about, which I think is, 533 00:46:38,460 --> 00:46:44,940 is that when our real emotional intelligence, intellectual 534 00:46:44,940 --> 00:46:51,929 intelligence, our our creativity, our our experience, 535 00:46:54,119 --> 00:46:55,800 then can come into play. 536 00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:02,309 Henny Flynn: So when I was on that muddy hillside, the thing 537 00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:12,570 that brought me back enough to begin to observe myself was the 538 00:47:12,570 --> 00:47:22,320 feel of the cold, wet mud and my hands plunged because I'd fallen 539 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:29,309 word, I'd fallen myself to my knees. My hands plunged in that 540 00:47:29,309 --> 00:47:38,010 cold, wet mud. And I remember a very clear thought of feeling 541 00:47:38,010 --> 00:47:41,309 the sensation, noticing the sensation. So it wasn't a 542 00:47:41,309 --> 00:47:45,449 thought it was a feeling the feeling of noticing the 543 00:47:45,449 --> 00:47:51,690 sensation of the mud on my hands. And, yes, absolutely 100% 544 00:47:51,690 --> 00:47:56,730 It's that it's the noticing of what is going on in our body. 545 00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:02,940 The moment that we can. And that's the other thing, isn't 546 00:48:02,940 --> 00:48:08,789 it, it's, you know, it's very easy to then trip up into the 547 00:48:08,849 --> 00:48:12,480 inner critic and the inner judge that goes, I really should have 548 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:18,269 clocked that bit faster. I should have known I really ought 549 00:48:18,269 --> 00:48:21,900 to be paying more attention, all of that stuff. But actually, 550 00:48:21,929 --> 00:48:29,550 just in the moment that we notice going this too. Okay, 551 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:37,500 this and feeling this. And that, I think that's sort of what I'm 552 00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:41,519 talking about, really, with the spaciousness is the and 553 00:48:41,519 --> 00:48:45,239 actually, that's also the first point at which we exert choice. 554 00:48:46,530 --> 00:48:54,449 Because I, I had a choice on that hillside. Part of me would 555 00:48:54,449 --> 00:49:00,150 have really loved just to have absolutely let rip. I mean, 556 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,960 there was a part of me, I mean, I did, but there's part of me 557 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:11,250 that could have taken it a lot further. And and that would have 558 00:49:11,250 --> 00:49:19,019 been okay, if that had been the choice that I had chosen. But 559 00:49:19,019 --> 00:49:23,309 there was that moment of choice of I can, I can feel the mud on 560 00:49:23,309 --> 00:49:32,070 my hands and coming back into the body. So I think, yeah, no 561 00:49:32,070 --> 00:49:35,309 judgement, no judgement, no judgement, endless compassion, 562 00:49:35,820 --> 00:49:41,280 turning toward whatever it is that we are experiencing in that 563 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:50,699 moment. And noticing, yeah, if we just do that, that's a 564 00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:52,679 amazing gift. 565 00:49:53,670 --> 00:49:56,219 Susan McCulley: I mean, meditation talk, teachers talk 566 00:49:56,219 --> 00:50:08,400 about this all the time. That if You miss 1000 breaths. And, and 567 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:14,280 you up notice one? That's the practice. Yeah, it is that 568 00:50:14,369 --> 00:50:26,849 moment of of noticing. And, and, and yeah, and if you go for 569 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:32,340 decades, not noticing. And that's okay. I mean, that's, 570 00:50:32,369 --> 00:50:39,690 that's part of it, and it's in it is just that choice to, to 571 00:50:39,690 --> 00:50:45,090 pay attention and and for me personally, I tend to go to my 572 00:50:45,090 --> 00:50:49,199 senses is like, you know, what am I what am I feeling on my 573 00:50:49,199 --> 00:50:53,670 skin? What am I smelling? What am I hearing? What am I seeing? 574 00:50:53,969 --> 00:51:01,920 What am I? What am I feeling and sometimes it takes me a hell of 575 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:09,480 a long time to get there. Yeah. 576 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:16,440 And, and I think that it is true for for whatever fears that 577 00:51:10,980 --> 00:51:24,389 we're facing, whether we're afraid about a relationship, or 578 00:51:16,469 --> 00:51:31,920 a political situation, or a physical pain, you know, 579 00:51:24,389 --> 00:51:39,659 whatever it is that these, the experience of fear on some level 580 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:45,239 is not is the same. And handy that because we can use the same 581 00:51:39,659 --> 00:51:55,349 tools to help ourselves and support ourselves. And I and I 582 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:58,260 think the other thing that I'm, I'm curious about your, your, 583 00:51:55,440 --> 00:52:01,170 your interaction with your friend, because one of the 584 00:51:58,260 --> 00:52:08,219 things that I have been noticing, in particular in the 585 00:52:01,170 --> 00:52:17,070 past couple of months, in my own experiences, is that I really 586 00:52:08,219 --> 00:52:24,059 rely on trusted people to remind me of the things that I know, 587 00:52:17,070 --> 00:52:27,210 but have forgotten. So I have friends who sometimes reach out 588 00:52:24,059 --> 00:52:32,159 and just say, breathe, honey, breathe, breathe, breathe, 589 00:52:27,210 --> 00:52:36,239 breathe. Right. And, you know, remind me how much of this is, 590 00:52:32,190 --> 00:52:44,400 is the story and how much of this is what's actually 591 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:48,900 happening? I think I think that there is a place for that, for 592 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:55,980 us to step in for each other, and give us perhaps more 593 00:52:49,289 --> 00:53:03,329 information, sometimes information is incredibly 594 00:52:55,980 --> 00:53:09,210 helpful to give us a rope to pull ourselves out of a fear. 595 00:53:03,329 --> 00:53:13,829 No, I had another another x ray on my foot yesterday. And it 596 00:53:09,210 --> 00:53:15,090 gave me more information. And it was so helpful. 597 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,550 Henny Flynn: I think I think that is true. Absolutely. And, 598 00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:27,960 and I to see it, experience it with friends and and in a way 599 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:33,239 that's that that's sort of part of what this is. I mean, this 600 00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:38,159 is, you know, this is, I've often said, doing the podcast is 601 00:53:38,159 --> 00:53:41,639 a bit like me getting kind of therapy because it's, you know, 602 00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:46,019 even if I'm sort of talking with myself, it's it's a therapeutic 603 00:53:46,019 --> 00:53:51,300 process of like my own learning as well as sharing reflections 604 00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:54,420 with others. And, you know, as I'm listening to you, I can feel 605 00:53:54,420 --> 00:54:03,239 my cogs wearing. And there is there is also something really 606 00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:10,110 important about where our licences to offer that kind of 607 00:54:10,860 --> 00:54:18,630 guidance or support. And I'm being mindful that sometimes 608 00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:22,469 somebody just needs to say, this is what is going on. This is 609 00:54:22,469 --> 00:54:30,719 what is happening in my in my head. And and I think this is 610 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:36,900 where the the sort of collective experience starts to become 611 00:54:37,619 --> 00:54:41,880 really important in a slightly different way. Because if our 612 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,409 collective experience is that everyone around us is afraid. 613 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,090 Then the you know, the transference of that energy, you 614 00:54:51,090 --> 00:54:56,550 know, emotional contagion, all of that stuff impacts us, and we 615 00:54:56,550 --> 00:54:59,190 start to notice I'm feeling a bit anxious I'm feeling a bit 616 00:54:59,190 --> 00:55:00,900 afraid I don't really know What's going on, and then we 617 00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:05,760 create a story for ourselves. 618 00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:10,380 Because when we can't see what it is, that's concerning us, we 619 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:17,219 just know that we feel it. But in exactly the same way, when we 620 00:55:10,380 --> 00:55:29,130 are with people who are calm, who are, you know, mindful of 621 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:32,699 their emotional experience in the way that you and I have been 622 00:55:29,130 --> 00:55:37,170 talking about today, you know, doing the practice, the more of 623 00:55:32,699 --> 00:55:41,429 us that there are, who are caring in that way for our own 624 00:55:37,170 --> 00:55:47,730 fears, because that's what we're talking about here. The greater 625 00:55:41,429 --> 00:55:50,940 the impact that that has, in terms of emotional contagion on 626 00:55:47,730 --> 00:55:58,260 others, you know, by being a calm Centre, we, even without 627 00:55:50,940 --> 00:56:01,559 saying anything, we support those around us and Oh, my God, 628 00:55:58,289 --> 00:56:06,329 I mean, you see it, I see it a lot with clients, you know, 629 00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:11,909 where, when they are able to attend to their needs, their 630 00:56:06,329 --> 00:56:16,769 inner needs, in a way that is calm and clear and 631 00:56:11,969 --> 00:56:23,130 compassionate. The impact that has on the household is immense. 632 00:56:16,769 --> 00:56:29,400 And I think the same thing is true societally as well. So I 633 00:56:23,130 --> 00:56:32,880 think some headline of that is, sometimes it takes words, and 634 00:56:29,429 --> 00:56:33,599 sometimes it takes just trusting. 635 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,150 Susan McCulley: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. I think that's 636 00:56:36,150 --> 00:56:40,860 absolutely right. And the image that came came to me was, yeah, 637 00:56:40,860 --> 00:56:44,280 fears like Velcro, but so is calm. 638 00:56:48,929 --> 00:56:52,889 Henny Flynn: Calm so as I as you just said that I was like, calm 639 00:56:52,889 --> 00:57:00,059 to me feels like water. In the way that water finds a way, you 640 00:57:00,059 --> 00:57:05,668 know, water is that's better, yes, the only immovable force 641 00:57:05,668 --> 00:57:10,559 because of it's the energy that is inherent within it, and it 642 00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:12,898 will always find a way through 643 00:57:13,980 --> 00:57:19,800 Susan McCulley: and ended it can wet everything that it's on. 644 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:23,670 Yeah, I like that even I like that better. But I absolutely, I 645 00:57:23,670 --> 00:57:29,969 think you're right, is that sometimes the best thing that we 646 00:57:29,969 --> 00:57:39,150 can do is show up in a settled, peaceful, grounded place, in the 647 00:57:39,150 --> 00:57:42,059 midst of things that are not that way. 648 00:57:42,389 --> 00:57:48,208 Henny Flynn: And, and in, not in a Oh, I really need to be 649 00:57:48,208 --> 00:57:51,628 grounded and settled. So that's, that's what I'm going to project 650 00:57:51,659 --> 00:57:56,099 not in a, you know, rose tinted spectacles or gritted teeth, you 651 00:57:56,099 --> 00:57:58,018 know, everything so crew. 652 00:57:59,219 --> 00:58:00,960 Susan McCulley: Not really, that's not really settled. 653 00:58:01,019 --> 00:58:01,409 That's not 654 00:58:01,409 --> 00:58:03,030 Henny Flynn: really settled. 655 00:58:01,409 --> 00:58:06,599 But, you know, that kind of thing that we can, again, you 656 00:58:03,030 --> 00:58:12,420 know, I think that sort of toxic positivity can start to feed 657 00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:12,420 into that a little bit. Sure. 658 00:58:13,230 --> 00:58:18,000 So, and that is, I suppose, that is the kind of like the depths 659 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,139 of what you've been talking about, you know, the depths of 660 00:58:22,139 --> 00:58:27,900 that attention to what am I feeling physical sensations of 661 00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:32,489 what am I feeling? When we begin there, we begin right deep 662 00:58:32,489 --> 00:58:41,670 inside the influence that that has, like, through our own 663 00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:47,909 system, and then out into the world, I think is, yeah, more 664 00:58:47,909 --> 00:58:48,690 profound. 665 00:58:48,989 --> 00:59:00,840 Susan McCulley: Yeah. So I hear us talking about both the, say, 666 00:59:01,110 --> 00:59:06,690 an acute fear situation, for ourselves or for others. So 667 00:59:08,699 --> 00:59:16,469 really, attending to ourselves when we are in fear. And 668 00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:21,630 sometimes that may be self you know, our own our own situation, 669 00:59:21,630 --> 00:59:27,750 our own experience. And sometimes it's, I've been 670 00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:34,139 infected by somebody else's fear. And, and how do I navigate 671 00:59:34,139 --> 00:59:40,710 that? And and I think that they're similar, but they can be 672 00:59:40,739 --> 00:59:48,840 they can be different for me. 673 00:59:40,739 --> 00:59:53,489 And, and I think that what we're, what I'm hearing is 674 00:59:48,840 --> 01:00:03,150 talking about when things are acute, and they're intense. I 675 00:59:53,489 --> 01:00:06,900 have a certain A tool set. And sometimes it's the the sort of 676 01:00:03,150 --> 01:00:12,119 halfway like, Okay, this is happening. And I recognise it's 677 01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:15,599 happening, I recognise that it's illogical, I recognise all of 678 01:00:12,119 --> 01:00:15,599 that, and yet it is happening. 679 01:00:16,199 --> 01:00:22,320 And, and sometimes it can be that I have the ability to 680 01:00:22,349 --> 01:00:28,800 engage higher levels of tools. 681 01:00:22,349 --> 01:00:32,369 And then there's then there are the situations where we are 682 01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:40,230 stepping into an environment of fear. Which, you know, sometimes 683 01:00:32,369 --> 01:00:45,389 shows up on bumpers, do you have bumper stickers in the UK? Yeah. 684 01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:51,090 So, yeah, sometimes I'm behind a vehicle and go, oh, there's a 685 01:00:45,389 --> 01:01:00,869 lot of fear in that in that truck. And I, and it can, it can 686 01:00:51,090 --> 01:01:04,980 trigger fear in me. But can I tend to that before it starts to 687 01:01:00,869 --> 01:01:04,980 become a bigger thing? 688 01:01:05,849 --> 01:01:14,219 Henny Flynn: And yes, so the, the contagion of fear. There's 689 01:01:14,219 --> 01:01:18,809 also the inherited stories of fear as well, I have a feeling 690 01:01:18,809 --> 01:01:23,128 we might be needing to do another kind of episode on this, 691 01:01:23,219 --> 01:01:26,099 actually, Susan at some point, because, because I think that's 692 01:01:26,099 --> 01:01:30,148 also a big part of it, like, Who does this belong to that that, 693 01:01:30,148 --> 01:01:33,239 for me, can be a really powerful question, Who does this belong 694 01:01:33,239 --> 01:01:39,148 to? And it's something that I use prod, Anton, he gets 695 01:01:39,148 --> 01:01:41,789 mentioned quite a lot on the podcast, but it is time, you 696 01:01:41,789 --> 01:01:45,869 know, there are times when I will notice I'm really sensing 697 01:01:45,869 --> 01:01:52,318 something. And then I, and I'm responding, reacting. And then 698 01:01:52,318 --> 01:01:55,619 it's like, hang on a minute, is this mine? Yeah. Is that 699 01:01:55,619 --> 01:02:00,688 actually mine? I want to think it is, oh, it's yours. I'm just 700 01:02:01,199 --> 01:02:03,748 picking up on what you're feeling. Okay. I'll just leave 701 01:02:03,748 --> 01:02:07,228 that with you. And then I can come back into compassion. And 702 01:02:07,228 --> 01:02:10,648 then I can, you know, I might still find it annoying, because 703 01:02:10,648 --> 01:02:14,518 I'm human. But I can recognise that I'm finding it annoying, 704 01:02:14,518 --> 01:02:21,418 rather than being annoyed by it. 705 01:02:14,518 --> 01:02:25,829 But there's also the part of that the wider fear stepping 706 01:02:21,418 --> 01:02:31,528 into an environment of fear is the financial impact of stuff 707 01:02:26,639 --> 01:02:31,528 going on around us globally. 708 01:02:33,389 --> 01:02:38,489 There is a direct impact on people's livelihoods on the way 709 01:02:38,489 --> 01:02:42,628 that people live their life, you know, how they pay the bills, 710 01:02:42,748 --> 01:02:49,438 how, and, and so I think there's also something about not some of 711 01:02:49,438 --> 01:02:51,958 those fears, like you said, right at the very beginning, I 712 01:02:51,958 --> 01:02:54,599 suppose is just sort of bringing us back to that start point is 713 01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:59,159 that some of those fears are, they are real, they are 714 01:02:59,188 --> 01:03:04,139 absolutely real. So when you can see that there is a direct 715 01:03:04,139 --> 01:03:07,139 impact that you're needing to shop at a different shop or shop 716 01:03:07,139 --> 01:03:12,268 less or buy different food or whatever the thing is, or really 717 01:03:12,268 --> 01:03:17,639 think about how you use energy in your home. All of that is 718 01:03:17,668 --> 01:03:25,378 totally real. And so then it's about how, how to recognise 719 01:03:25,378 --> 01:03:29,759 where your point of control is around the reality of the 720 01:03:29,759 --> 01:03:37,349 experience that you're noticing. 721 01:03:29,759 --> 01:03:46,648 And, and be able to say, this is hard. But not the flip lid, 722 01:03:37,349 --> 01:03:52,949 catastrophe, catastrophic. The world is ending. This is hard. 723 01:03:46,648 --> 01:03:52,949 This is hard. Just this is hard. 724 01:03:53,159 --> 01:03:58,018 And there is stuff right now. 725 01:03:53,159 --> 01:03:58,018 Which is really hard. Yeah. 726 01:03:58,559 --> 01:04:04,438 Yeah. And yeah, maybe that's, I mean, gosh, that seems so funny 727 01:04:04,438 --> 01:04:06,989 place to end, but actually, it feels like also the most 728 01:04:06,989 --> 01:04:11,789 compassionate kind of place, which is just hand on heart. 729 01:04:11,938 --> 01:04:12,958 This is hard. 730 01:04:13,230 --> 01:04:16,949 Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And I think 731 01:04:17,940 --> 01:04:31,500 the acknowledgement that it's hard and it's human. And and if 732 01:04:31,530 --> 01:04:36,690 I'm not feeling fear right now, I have felt it. I mean, I think 733 01:04:36,690 --> 01:04:42,960 that that's, that's right. And, and I think that whether whether 734 01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:46,920 it's mine or whether it's somebody else's, whether it is 735 01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:51,659 within my control or with with that without my control, outside 736 01:04:51,659 --> 01:04:58,860 of my control. It really does come back to the 737 01:04:58,889 --> 01:05:04,079 acknowledgement. To have the realness of it, and then what do 738 01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:07,829 we do from there? Right? It's like this whole feeling of like, 739 01:05:08,130 --> 01:05:14,670 don't be silly, that's a figment is, is so unhelpful. And, and, 740 01:05:14,699 --> 01:05:21,389 and hand on heart, this is hard, is the essence of all of our 741 01:05:21,389 --> 01:05:27,539 experiences with fear, whether they are, you know, based in 742 01:05:27,539 --> 01:05:34,679 reality or not. And, and I think that is that acknowledgement and 743 01:05:34,679 --> 01:05:40,050 recognition that gives us the space to then be able to make it 744 01:05:40,050 --> 01:05:46,949 to the tree, and to dive into the wave. And, and just take the 745 01:05:46,949 --> 01:05:53,190 next step and and I think that, you know, just as a sort of 746 01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:59,280 maybe a parting mentioned is to say that we've all been trained 747 01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:06,750 in fear in different ways. Yes, and, and so that some people's 748 01:06:06,750 --> 01:06:13,349 fear, they skip right over fear and go to anger. Or some people 749 01:06:13,349 --> 01:06:17,579 go into total collapse, or, you know, we've all been, we all 750 01:06:17,579 --> 01:06:24,269 have a variety of experiences with fear. And sometimes when we 751 01:06:24,269 --> 01:06:28,769 are resourced, investigating that when fears not like in 752 01:06:28,769 --> 01:06:35,969 conflagration in our underpants. 753 01:06:28,769 --> 01:06:38,969 Right, when, like, let's let me like, let me invest in what is 754 01:06:35,969 --> 01:06:44,190 my relationship to fear when I'm not in the middle of it? And for 755 01:06:38,969 --> 01:06:51,840 me, for example, catastrophic predictions is how I was trained 756 01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:57,449 in fear. And so just recognising that in a non fear situation 757 01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:57,449 gives me Oh, look, look at that. 758 01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:03,480 That's what's happening here. 759 01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:07,019 Oh, honey, this is hard. And, and this can also help me 760 01:07:03,570 --> 01:07:07,019 navigate other people's fear. 761 01:07:07,050 --> 01:07:10,860 Henny Flynn: Yes, yes. Yes, exactly. Because then it's about 762 01:07:10,860 --> 01:07:15,480 the recognition that we all have different fear responses. So 763 01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:20,969 understanding our own step one, then recognising other people 764 01:07:20,969 --> 01:07:25,320 don't necessarily have the same responses as there is a, there's 765 01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:30,539 a piece of research that I came across a few years ago, which 766 01:07:30,539 --> 01:07:36,719 was around the fight flight, freeze response, and basically 767 01:07:36,780 --> 01:07:42,059 saying that we will all use all of them at different times. But 768 01:07:42,059 --> 01:07:45,300 this, this particular piece of research was indicating that we 769 01:07:45,300 --> 01:07:49,980 all have a kind of base point. 770 01:07:45,300 --> 01:07:54,929 So when the stuff really hits the fan, that is our fear 771 01:07:49,980 --> 01:08:04,349 response. And some mine is flight, like I am, I just want 772 01:07:54,929 --> 01:08:09,480 to get out of dodge. And, and it feels like the most sensible, 773 01:08:04,349 --> 01:08:14,369 logical, only thing to do. So I'm even, you know, I think that 774 01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:20,909 I'm thinking with this bit of my brain, it's that. And, you know, 775 01:08:14,369 --> 01:08:25,229 and I think sort of having growing awareness of what that 776 01:08:20,909 --> 01:08:31,380 response is, is really helpful because, you know, in an 777 01:08:25,229 --> 01:08:33,539 environment where it's like the, you know, the people who are the 778 01:08:31,380 --> 01:08:37,560 preppers you know, that the environmental sort of 779 01:08:33,539 --> 01:08:43,170 catastrophe preppers, you know, their, their response is, hunker 780 01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:47,520 down in a bunker. So understanding like, what might 781 01:08:43,170 --> 01:08:52,560 be driving the behaviour that gets you to that point, where 782 01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:55,199 that feels like the best step for you and not criticising 783 01:08:52,590 --> 01:08:58,739 people who have hunkered down in a bunker that, you know, may 784 01:08:55,199 --> 01:09:01,800 well be the right choice, you know, but, but yeah, just 785 01:08:58,739 --> 01:09:06,090 understanding what is it and I love what you said about that we 786 01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:10,199 have been trained in in different ways, you know, in the 787 01:09:06,090 --> 01:09:13,949 language of fear, our response to it will be very different. 788 01:09:10,199 --> 01:09:13,949 So, honouring that. 789 01:09:14,609 --> 01:09:17,130 Susan McCulley: I'm curious, I think you're right, that this 790 01:09:17,130 --> 01:09:23,100 topic is enormous. So I'm, as we, as we begin to wrap up, I'm, 791 01:09:23,130 --> 01:09:28,529 I feel like what I'm inviting was anybody who's listening, you 792 01:09:28,529 --> 01:09:35,189 know, reach out to Henny or to me but and what is it about 793 01:09:35,189 --> 01:09:38,760 fear? Like maybe share what is what is your what how were you 794 01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:44,489 trained in fear? How, like, what's your, your, your fear 795 01:09:44,489 --> 01:09:49,890 lineage? Right, yeah. And what do you notice about your own 796 01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:55,529 experiences? And I think that there could be another a follow 797 01:09:55,529 --> 01:09:58,470 on what do you how do you how do you deal with other people's 798 01:09:58,470 --> 01:09:58,710 fear? 799 01:09:58,720 --> 01:09:59,979 Henny Flynn: Yeah, gorgeous. 800 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:05,069 Susan McCulley: So, yeah, I mean, I really invite you, dear 801 01:10:05,069 --> 01:10:11,909 listeners to, to circle back to us and tell us what, what you 802 01:10:11,909 --> 01:10:20,039 notice about yourself? And, and what, how you how you support 803 01:10:20,039 --> 01:10:24,119 yourself how you maybe don't support yourself? You know, I 804 01:10:24,119 --> 01:10:27,630 would I would just love to hear this, it feels like a really 805 01:10:27,630 --> 01:10:32,670 rich and important conversation in the sense that the more we 806 01:10:32,670 --> 01:10:38,369 understand that both our own and each other's that we can be more 807 01:10:38,369 --> 01:10:42,600 like, Oh, honey, look at all of those angry bumper stickers, you 808 01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,319 are so afraid. Right? 809 01:10:47,649 --> 01:10:52,119 Henny Flynn: And I mean, on a very sort again, you know, back 810 01:10:52,119 --> 01:11:01,989 to me on that muddy hillside. 811 01:10:52,119 --> 01:11:08,590 Anton is deeply compassionate about that fear of mine, and 812 01:11:02,079 --> 01:11:08,590 gives me all the space I need. 813 01:11:08,590 --> 01:11:11,109 So when we're about to go up something that's really steep or 814 01:11:11,109 --> 01:11:13,300 come down something that's really steep, he will always 815 01:11:13,300 --> 01:11:19,569 say, okay, and then I will say, Yep. And now I know, I have my 816 01:11:19,569 --> 01:11:23,439 stick, and I, you know, I have like various tools. But the 817 01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:27,369 other thing that I will say to him is, and if I do claps on my 818 01:11:27,369 --> 01:11:37,869 hands and knees, I know that I can get up again. And he lets 819 01:11:37,869 --> 01:11:44,470 me. So there's also something here about the compassion that 820 01:11:44,470 --> 01:11:50,470 comes with allowing someone else to take themselves through 821 01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:54,220 whatever the process is that they need to go through. And not 822 01:11:54,250 --> 01:12:00,130 the thing that you referenced before of generally, like it 823 01:12:00,130 --> 01:12:02,260 comes out of trying to make everything okay for the other 824 01:12:02,260 --> 01:12:04,390 person and going oh, don't be ridiculous. If there's nothing 825 01:12:04,390 --> 01:12:08,649 to worry about here. You'll be fine. That doesn't help. Yeah. 826 01:12:09,579 --> 01:12:13,960 So this is all about honouring, honouring ourselves our 827 01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,079 experience and honouring the fear. You know, it's just a part 828 01:12:17,079 --> 01:12:19,060 of us. You still deserve love 829 01:12:20,289 --> 01:12:21,460 Susan McCulley: this too this too 830 01:12:21,609 --> 01:12:25,029 Henny Flynn: this too. Oh. 831 01:12:32,289 --> 01:12:42,550 So thank you, everybody, and for listening for being here. And 832 01:12:42,579 --> 01:12:48,340 for those of you on YouTube right now, sticking with me and 833 01:12:48,340 --> 01:12:51,939 Susan, as we rambled at the end, I think we both kind of 834 01:12:51,939 --> 01:12:55,899 forgotten we were still recording. But that point, that 835 01:12:55,899 --> 01:13:06,189 question that Susan, and I will Susan, kind of led us to, we 836 01:13:06,189 --> 01:13:10,119 would really, really love to hear what your reflections are 837 01:13:10,210 --> 01:13:19,149 on. What are your languages of fear? What do you recognise 838 01:13:19,180 --> 01:13:25,899 within yourself, the may then already does support you in how 839 01:13:25,899 --> 01:13:32,890 you recognise and support others in the way that they manage the 840 01:13:32,890 --> 01:13:37,090 fears that they're experiencing. 841 01:13:32,890 --> 01:13:42,250 There's something really, really rich about this. And I was 842 01:13:37,090 --> 01:13:46,539 laughing with Susan because my degree was in sociology, with 843 01:13:42,279 --> 01:13:51,729 psychology, and a lot of that, obviously, is about doing 844 01:13:46,569 --> 01:13:59,079 studies like this and creating hypotheses about what drives our 845 01:13:53,409 --> 01:14:04,840 behaviour. So there's a little part of me that still 20 at 846 01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:09,760 University. She's really curious about what might come out of 847 01:14:04,899 --> 01:14:16,720 this and, you know, just email me, Henny at Henny flynn.co.uk 848 01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:23,590 and share your thoughts about fear or come and join the Henny 849 01:14:16,750 --> 01:14:28,479 Flynn group on Facebook. Just search Henny Flynn group or come 850 01:14:23,590 --> 01:14:33,100 and find me on Instagram and you can always message me on there. 851 01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:39,699 So it's at Henny underscore Flynn. And yeah, I'd really 852 01:14:33,189 --> 01:14:43,989 really love to hear from you and get your thoughts to help co 853 01:14:40,149 --> 01:14:48,520 create this next episode that will do at some point in the 854 01:14:43,989 --> 01:14:48,520 future. All right, my darlings. 855 01:14:49,750 --> 01:14:55,359 I sent you a hug and a wave