1 00:00:00,140 --> 00:00:01,179 Hi. I'm Michael Dyrynda. 2 00:00:01,959 --> 00:00:02,919 And I'm Jake Bennett. 3 00:00:03,519 --> 00:00:07,179 And welcome to episode 178 of the North Meets South Web Podcast. [rock music] 4 00:00:08,659 --> 00:00:10,560 Nailed it. Good job, dude. How's it going? 5 00:00:11,279 --> 00:00:14,020 Nice. Going well. Going, uh, yeah. Going well. 6 00:00:14,759 --> 00:00:15,060 -Busy- -Good 7 00:00:15,060 --> 00:00:20,340 -... but but well. How about you? -Great. Yeah. No. Same. Same. I [sighs] 8 00:00:20,340 --> 00:00:21,559 I've tried recently. 9 00:00:22,279 --> 00:00:26,099 I I catch myself saying the same answer that you just gave a lot, which is busy, 10 00:00:26,099 --> 00:00:26,680 -right? -Mm-hmm. 11 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,739 And and i- it's true. Like, it's not a lie. I mean, we are. We are busy. 12 00:00:30,739 --> 00:00:33,659 -We're all busy. -But I realized after a while that I would 13 00:00:33,659 --> 00:00:36,520 ask people the same question, they would say the same thing. And it's like, you 14 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,700 know what? We're all busy. All of us, we're all busy. 15 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:39,360 -Yeah. -Like, so- 16 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:40,040 All busy all the time. 17 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:43,979 Yeah. I tried to stop saying that, but it doesn't work very well 'cause it's still 18 00:00:43,979 --> 00:00:45,579 typically my answer. "How are things going?" 19 00:00:45,579 --> 00:00:46,979 -Yeah. -"Oh, you know, bus- pretty busy. But busy 20 00:00:46,979 --> 00:00:49,200 work, but the good. Things are good. Things are good." You know, so whatever. 21 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,939 -So- -I mean, I don't, I don't know how else to 22 00:00:50,939 --> 00:00:53,299 -answer the question because that's- -I know. 23 00:00:53,299 --> 00:00:54,779 -That's how I am. -There's so many things going on. It's like 24 00:00:54,779 --> 00:00:56,879 -I have to pick one thing to talk about. -Mm-hmm. 25 00:00:56,879 --> 00:00:59,660 Uh, it's like I I could talk about a lot of things, but there's a lot of things 26 00:00:59,660 --> 00:01:00,999 -going on, so I'm busy. -Yeah. 27 00:01:00,999 --> 00:01:02,439 -There's a lot, you know? -Yeah. 28 00:01:02,439 --> 00:01:03,140 -We all are. -Busy. 29 00:01:03,140 --> 00:01:04,059 -We all- -Busy, busy 30 00:01:04,059 --> 00:01:04,519 ... are. 31 00:01:05,259 --> 00:01:09,260 You reach that certain stage in life where you, you think... Uh, I remember thinking 32 00:01:09,260 --> 00:01:12,299 when our kids were little, like, "Man, once my kids can feed themselves and tie 33 00:01:12,299 --> 00:01:16,380 their own shoes, then things will probably slow down." And it's like and then they 34 00:01:16,380 --> 00:01:18,040 get older, and it's like then it's friends- 35 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:19,079 -Gets harder -... and sports. 36 00:01:19,079 --> 00:01:20,359 -Yeah. -And you're like, "Man, after basketball 37 00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:24,399 season is over, then then things are gonna slow down a little bit." And it doesn't. 38 00:01:24,399 --> 00:01:27,159 -It just keeps going faster- -Yeah 39 00:01:27,159 --> 00:01:30,759 -... and faster and faster and faster. -We're we're just moving into that phase 40 00:01:30,759 --> 00:01:33,540 -now with Eli playing sport and soccer. -Mm-hmm. 41 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:34,359 -And now it's- -Mm-hmm 42 00:01:35,900 --> 00:01:39,279 Liv has decided that she doesn't always want to... I think more often than not, 43 00:01:39,279 --> 00:01:41,999 she doesn't want to go to the soccer games, which is fair enough- 44 00:01:41,999 --> 00:01:42,599 -Mm-hmm -... 'cause it's cold- 45 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:43,880 -Yes -... and she's sitting around and she's 46 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,220 -bored. And- -Sure. Yeah. Yeah 47 00:01:45,220 --> 00:01:47,939 ... she's not really interested in it. So because she's not participating, she 48 00:01:47,939 --> 00:01:52,279 doesn't doesn't really wanna be involved. And so one week, I'll take Eli to soccer. 49 00:01:52,279 --> 00:01:55,659 -One week, Ria will take him. And so- -Oh, nice. There you go 50 00:01:55,659 --> 00:01:58,399 ... it's back and forth, and then, like, figuring out who's going where. And and 51 00:01:58,399 --> 00:02:01,659 now that the kids are a little bit more independent and it's a bit easier to do 52 00:02:01,659 --> 00:02:06,859 things. Like, before, when we'd, like, bath the kids, we want all hands on deck 53 00:02:06,859 --> 00:02:09,919 'cause someone will be washing one, someone will be drying the other one, 54 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:10,819 -getting them ready for bed- -Yep. 55 00:02:10,819 --> 00:02:12,079 -And all that kind of stuff. -Yep. [laughs] 56 00:02:12,079 --> 00:02:12,359 Now 57 00:02:12,999 --> 00:02:16,699 now both of them can basically wash themselves, except when it comes time to 58 00:02:16,699 --> 00:02:20,899 washing their hair. And Eli can dress himself, so it's like you... Uh, we just 59 00:02:20,899 --> 00:02:23,299 watch them get in and out to make sure that they don't- 60 00:02:23,299 --> 00:02:24,879 -Get in there -... slip on the bath. 61 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:27,379 -Yep. Yep. -You know, so that makes it easier to, 62 00:02:27,379 --> 00:02:32,019 like, go out during the week so that, you know, Mum can put one of them to bed or I 63 00:02:32,019 --> 00:02:33,779 -can put one of them to bed, feed them- -Yeah 64 00:02:33,779 --> 00:02:38,659 ... all that kind of stuff. And and it's not like this overwhelming chore of of 65 00:02:38,659 --> 00:02:41,799 having to do all of that stuff because they're quite independent 66 00:02:42,419 --> 00:02:46,879 already. Um, and so that that makes life a lot easier, so that we don't have to have 67 00:02:46,879 --> 00:02:50,919 two people here all the time. It makes it easier for for Rhea to go to the gym or 68 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,739 for me to go out and and grab a bite or something like that, so- 69 00:02:53,739 --> 00:02:55,299 -Yeah. Yeah. Very true. -It's just a- 70 00:02:55,299 --> 00:02:57,059 -That is true. -But it's a different kind of busy, as you 71 00:02:57,059 --> 00:02:57,439 -say. -It is different. 72 00:02:57,439 --> 00:02:58,239 -You know? -Yeah. That's right. 73 00:02:58,239 --> 00:02:58,799 -It's just phases- -Yep 74 00:02:58,799 --> 00:03:01,179 ... of busy. And then, you know, once they get to- 75 00:03:01,179 --> 00:03:03,299 -Exactly -... the age of your kids, at at the other 76 00:03:03,299 --> 00:03:07,579 end, it's, like, more professional sport kind of commitments. Not not professional, 77 00:03:07,579 --> 00:03:09,639 -but, like, higher level of of sport- -Yeah 78 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:10,479 ... commitments, where 79 00:03:11,139 --> 00:03:14,659 it's training multiple times a week. It's playing multiple times a week. It's all of 80 00:03:14,659 --> 00:03:16,299 -this kind of moving around- -Right. Right 81 00:03:16,299 --> 00:03:18,699 -... where we now- -They're trying to get better. Like, when 82 00:03:18,699 --> 00:03:21,119 they're younger, it's like they're just trying to play. They just, they're happy 83 00:03:21,119 --> 00:03:22,039 -to just play. -Yeah. Mm-hmm. 84 00:03:22,039 --> 00:03:26,239 And, like, at this level, they have to kinda decide if they wanna be... If this 85 00:03:26,239 --> 00:03:27,859 -is what they wanna do, if they don't. -Yeah. 86 00:03:27,859 --> 00:03:30,499 And if they do, it's like they've gotta commit to practicing outside of the 87 00:03:30,499 --> 00:03:32,579 -practices and games and stuff. -Yeah. That's right. Yeah. 88 00:03:32,579 --> 00:03:35,019 And so it's like if you actually wanna get playing time and be good, you gotta do 89 00:03:35,019 --> 00:03:35,779 stuff outside. 90 00:03:36,519 --> 00:03:38,459 -Mm-hmm. -So coordinating those times as well and 91 00:03:38,459 --> 00:03:39,819 -whatever. So... -Yeah. 92 00:03:39,819 --> 00:03:43,179 It's all lots of fun, man. It is all lots of fun. 93 00:03:43,179 --> 00:03:44,759 -It's good though. -But those, for like, for Graham right now, 94 00:03:44,759 --> 00:03:47,179 he's 14, so it feels like the clock is starting. 95 00:03:47,179 --> 00:03:48,779 -Mm-hmm. -The countdown is on. You know what I mean? 96 00:03:48,779 --> 00:03:50,219 -It's kinda- -The countdown to college because it's very 97 00:03:50,219 --> 00:03:52,239 -different for- -Give as much time as we can with him 98 00:03:52,239 --> 00:03:53,279 -... for you guys over there. Mm-hmm. -Yeah. 99 00:03:53,279 --> 00:03:54,919 -'Cause what's- -Yep. 100 00:03:54,919 --> 00:04:00,579 Over there, very, very common for, you know, um, kids to to pack up and go off to 101 00:04:00,579 --> 00:04:01,719 -college and not- -Yep. Yep 102 00:04:01,719 --> 00:04:03,539 -... not stay at home and- -Totally 103 00:04:03,539 --> 00:04:07,079 ... and be away for for months at a time between breaks and things like that. 104 00:04:07,079 --> 00:04:11,419 Whereas here, they, they, generally, people will still go to university 105 00:04:12,279 --> 00:04:13,579 where they grew up. 106 00:04:14,319 --> 00:04:16,859 -Mm-hmm. -And and it's like you'll catch a bus to 107 00:04:16,859 --> 00:04:19,519 the city to, like, go, and then you'll come back home at the end of the day. So 108 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:23,619 it's it's very different, you know, hearing those perspectives. I see Abigail, 109 00:04:24,439 --> 00:04:27,199 you know, tweeting about it, that they're they're running out of summers with the 110 00:04:27,199 --> 00:04:30,239 kids at home and the kids being around and all that kind of stuff. And it's just not 111 00:04:30,239 --> 00:04:31,239 something that really 112 00:04:31,979 --> 00:04:33,899 crosses our... my mind because 113 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:36,219 short of going to the 114 00:04:37,159 --> 00:04:41,339 join the army, you know, like my my nephew did, you don't really... Like, most 115 00:04:41,339 --> 00:04:44,879 people kind of tend to stay where they are until they finish study. Not a lot of 116 00:04:44,879 --> 00:04:48,499 people will travel interstate for study. Um, I think that's fairly uncommon here. 117 00:04:49,759 --> 00:04:51,459 -Interesting. Yeah. -Yeah. 118 00:04:51,459 --> 00:04:52,519 -Yeah. That is a cultural thing. -Or is this, like- 119 00:04:52,519 --> 00:04:53,879 -I think- -... part of the course for you guys? 120 00:04:53,879 --> 00:04:56,019 I think... Very, very common. Yeah. Exactly. 121 00:04:56,019 --> 00:04:57,479 -Mm-hmm. -And a lot of kids see it as their first 122 00:04:57,479 --> 00:05:00,179 opportunity to sort of escape their hometown. You know what I mean? It's like 123 00:05:00,179 --> 00:05:01,119 -they wanna get outta here. -Mm-hmm. 124 00:05:01,119 --> 00:05:04,519 They wanna go experience the world, live somewhere different, live apart from their 125 00:05:05,259 --> 00:05:09,159 parents and family. Kinda have their their leap into adulthood, if you will. So- 126 00:05:09,159 --> 00:05:10,699 -Yeah -... which comes with the pros and cons, 127 00:05:10,699 --> 00:05:12,859 you know, because they're only 18, so they're still kids, man. 128 00:05:12,859 --> 00:05:13,459 -Yeah. -It's like- 129 00:05:13,459 --> 00:05:14,879 -Yeah. -... you can make really stupid decisions 130 00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:17,619 as 18-year-olds. You can make really stupid decisions as a 40-year-old too. 131 00:05:17,619 --> 00:05:18,359 -But- -Yeah 132 00:05:18,359 --> 00:05:22,399 ... got a little bit more life experience behind you. So, anyway, yeah. It's, uh, 133 00:05:22,399 --> 00:05:24,699 it's fun, man. It's, it's been a good start to the summer, and 134 00:05:25,699 --> 00:05:26,679 things are going good. 135 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:27,739 Um, 136 00:05:28,459 --> 00:05:35,159 last show, when we were talking, um, we came up with, like, a bunch of things that 137 00:05:35,159 --> 00:05:40,419 we wanted to talk about, and so I wrote them down. And we talked about how we 138 00:05:40,419 --> 00:05:45,459 wanted to sort of have a little bit more... What did you call it? Like, not 139 00:05:45,459 --> 00:05:47,719 -consistency, but, like- -Continuity. 140 00:05:47,719 --> 00:05:49,039 -Continuity. That's it. -Yeah. 141 00:05:49,039 --> 00:05:53,639 That's the word. Continuity between the shows. And so last time, we were talking 142 00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:54,319 about 143 00:05:55,059 --> 00:05:57,999 Wistia, talked about the new Wilber Jobs website and how- 144 00:05:57,999 --> 00:06:00,379 -Mm-hmm -... that w- that was pretty cool. Um, I've 145 00:06:00,379 --> 00:06:04,259 got a couple things we could talk about with that. Staggered CSS animations, live 146 00:06:04,259 --> 00:06:09,399 photos, we could talk about that. Or we could talk about where to store values for 147 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:12,999 templates in static sites. That's an interesting one. 148 00:06:12,999 --> 00:06:16,635 -Mm-hmm. -Or defensive programming.... or time 149 00:06:16,635 --> 00:06:20,295 bombed feature flags. All right, which one sounds the most interesting to you? 150 00:06:20,295 --> 00:06:24,575 Hmm. Time bomb feature flags I've played with in the past, and they've bitten me- 151 00:06:24,575 --> 00:06:26,215 -Yes -... because they don't, they don't work- 152 00:06:26,215 --> 00:06:28,895 -Ooh -... quite as, quite the way that I thought 153 00:06:28,895 --> 00:06:29,315 they would. 154 00:06:30,016 --> 00:06:32,915 All right, let's dive in. Let's dive into time bomb feature flags. Okay. 155 00:06:33,555 --> 00:06:35,135 -Should I set the stage real quick? -Mm-hmm. 156 00:06:35,135 --> 00:06:38,175 You wanna tell me what Pennant is? Tell us, tell all the people what Pennant is. 157 00:06:38,795 --> 00:06:43,735 Pennant is a Laravel first party implementation for f- feature flagging, 158 00:06:44,455 --> 00:06:47,895 uh, in, in your Laravel apps, right? So Tim McDonald- 159 00:06:47,895 --> 00:06:49,955 -Yeah -... built, built that one out, hmm, not 160 00:06:49,955 --> 00:06:52,295 last year, the year before, I think. So it's a couple of, couple of years- 161 00:06:52,295 --> 00:06:54,895 -Yeah -... it's been around now. And, yeah, it's 162 00:06:54,895 --> 00:06:59,736 a, it's a first, first party, you know, it, it feels like a Laravel implementation 163 00:06:59,736 --> 00:07:00,655 of feature flags. 164 00:07:01,915 --> 00:07:04,616 Yeah, it's, um, it's a really good, 165 00:07:05,475 --> 00:07:09,636 um, it's a really good library, and it's very simple. Um, so it's, 166 00:07:10,375 --> 00:07:14,676 you know, it's basically the minimum amount of code that you would need in 167 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:17,895 order to be able to run feature flags is kinda how I think of it. So 168 00:07:18,635 --> 00:07:19,955 it's really, um, 169 00:07:20,755 --> 00:07:26,475 wonderfully simple. Uh, the couple of things that we, the way that we use it is 170 00:07:26,475 --> 00:07:27,435 you have... 171 00:07:28,035 --> 00:07:29,255 You can either have a closure 172 00:07:30,375 --> 00:07:35,195 that helps to give it a name. You can name the feature and then have a function that 173 00:07:35,195 --> 00:07:40,455 accepts a scope and then resolves the truthiness of that feature. 174 00:07:41,075 --> 00:07:41,395 So 175 00:07:42,195 --> 00:07:45,875 you say, let's say, um, the feature is, 176 00:07:47,535 --> 00:07:48,075 I don't know, 177 00:07:49,395 --> 00:07:53,415 Ken Call Michael. It's Ken Call Michael. The, you know, one of our support people 178 00:07:53,415 --> 00:07:57,335 gets a emergency button on their dashboard, which if they need help, they 179 00:07:57,335 --> 00:08:01,895 can call Michael. And only certain people get access to this because, you know, 180 00:08:01,895 --> 00:08:05,555 there's people who have abused this in the past. And so we wanna start out with only 181 00:08:05,555 --> 00:08:08,895 giving it to managers, because managers are the ones who, uh, can escalate calls 182 00:08:08,895 --> 00:08:12,795 to Michael. So what we're gonna do is we're going to thi- name this feature Ken 183 00:08:12,795 --> 00:08:16,615 Call Michael, and, uh, the way that I'm going to do it is I'm going to implement 184 00:08:16,615 --> 00:08:21,775 it inside of a class called Ken Call Michael Feature. And, um, inside of that, 185 00:08:21,775 --> 00:08:26,135 I have a resolve function, or sorry, resolve method, which accepts a scope, and 186 00:08:26,135 --> 00:08:31,455 I think typically that's just a generic, it's mixed $scope. But you can specify 187 00:08:31,455 --> 00:08:35,955 things like user. So I know that I'm passing a user into that scope, and it 188 00:08:35,955 --> 00:08:40,055 will fail if I pass anything else. So I'll pass a user in as that scope, and then I 189 00:08:40,055 --> 00:08:46,715 can say user hasRole manager, something like that. And I return that, return the 190 00:08:46,715 --> 00:08:50,975 truthiness of that statement. So if that statement returns as true, when that 191 00:08:50,975 --> 00:08:56,055 person visits the page that, uh, checks that feature, right, where that feature is 192 00:08:56,055 --> 00:09:01,315 actually on the page, it will grab that class. It will resolve that feature, 193 00:09:01,315 --> 00:09:06,155 resolve that method, and then it will return a truthy or falsey, um, value. And 194 00:09:06,155 --> 00:09:09,975 then that will get stored. Depending on what driver you're using for Pennant, 195 00:09:09,975 --> 00:09:13,615 it'll either get stored in the database, or it'll get stored, you know, in Redis or 196 00:09:13,615 --> 00:09:15,475 other places, wherever you might have it. 197 00:09:15,475 --> 00:09:16,955 -Mm-hmm. -And then at that point, it is resolved. It 198 00:09:16,955 --> 00:09:21,375 is not stored. It will not ever resolve again unless you delete or, or, uh, purge 199 00:09:21,375 --> 00:09:23,395 that feature for that person, which is great. 200 00:09:24,215 --> 00:09:28,795 So that's the idea, right? I can turn features on or off. I can also launch it 201 00:09:28,795 --> 00:09:32,835 as, like, nobody gets it. I can just, from that resolve function, return false. And 202 00:09:32,835 --> 00:09:36,215 then I can go into the database, and I can say only I get it, right? Or I can 203 00:09:36,215 --> 00:09:40,515 release it to a beta group of users. So I can test it in production without having 204 00:09:40,515 --> 00:09:45,295 any fear of breakages occurring because nobody can see it except for me. So if it 205 00:09:45,295 --> 00:09:47,835 breaks, it's only gonna break for me, or it's gonna break for a very small group of 206 00:09:47,835 --> 00:09:50,255 users. So really, really nice. Now, 207 00:09:50,855 --> 00:09:56,255 after having explained that, Michael, I want to hear your idea or explanation of 208 00:09:56,255 --> 00:09:57,235 time bombs, 209 00:09:57,875 --> 00:10:01,895 why you might use them, and how you implemented them and how they bit you. 210 00:10:01,895 --> 00:10:02,175 Mm-hmm. 211 00:10:02,835 --> 00:10:07,315 Yeah. Well, I think it's, it's the, the fact that they are resolved once and 212 00:10:07,315 --> 00:10:10,135 persisted that has bitten me because- 213 00:10:10,915 --> 00:10:13,075 -Mm-hmm -... the, the time bomb nature is that I 214 00:10:13,075 --> 00:10:18,495 would expect that a feature flag applies or doesn't apply depending on how you've 215 00:10:18,495 --> 00:10:23,315 got your code wrapped by that feature flag at some point in the future. 216 00:10:23,315 --> 00:10:25,355 -Mm-hmm. -So the way that I wanted to use them, 217 00:10:26,055 --> 00:10:30,715 rightly or wrongly, last year when, when I looked at it, was to time bomb the 218 00:10:30,715 --> 00:10:33,415 -display of speakers for Laricon AU. -Hmm. 219 00:10:33,415 --> 00:10:36,775 So, like, on some day in the future, we want this speaker to appear on the 220 00:10:36,775 --> 00:10:37,735 -website. -Yeah, yeah. 221 00:10:37,735 --> 00:10:41,135 So I don't have to remember to do it. So I don't have to be at the computer to, you 222 00:10:41,135 --> 00:10:44,655 know, tick a box or whatever. So I thought, yes, I will, I will time bomb 223 00:10:44,655 --> 00:10:45,615 that feature flag, 224 00:10:46,455 --> 00:10:49,475 uh, so that that speaker appears at some point in the future. 225 00:10:50,235 --> 00:10:54,975 Now, the problem with that was, because that was resolved once, when it resolved 226 00:10:54,975 --> 00:10:56,875 -the first time that it was loaded- -Mm-hmm. 227 00:10:57,495 --> 00:10:59,495 -It was false -... it was like... It was false. So it 228 00:10:59,495 --> 00:11:03,675 went into the database, and that was it. It was just false forever. So I would have 229 00:11:03,675 --> 00:11:10,075 to then go in, [laughs] on that time, on that day, to then remove that flag, which- 230 00:11:10,075 --> 00:11:10,215 Yeah 231 00:11:10,215 --> 00:11:12,055 -... kind of defeated the purpose of it. -Defeats the purpose. 232 00:11:12,055 --> 00:11:13,195 -So that's- -Totally. 233 00:11:13,195 --> 00:11:16,435 That's where, that's where I got bitten by them. Other than that- 234 00:11:16,435 --> 00:11:17,835 -So- -... I think they work fantastic. 235 00:11:18,615 --> 00:11:19,875 Okay. So, so 236 00:11:20,495 --> 00:11:26,355 it's probably helpful to talk about definitions of what a time bomb is. So 237 00:11:26,355 --> 00:11:32,395 what you've explained there is not necessarily a time bomb. A time bomb, as 238 00:11:32,395 --> 00:11:36,855 Martin Fowler describes it when he's talking about features and toggling, is a 239 00:11:36,855 --> 00:11:42,435 way for you to make sure that feature flags don't stick around for forever, 240 00:11:42,435 --> 00:11:43,055 -right? -Mm-hmm. 241 00:11:43,055 --> 00:11:50,015 So you could think of a time bomb more as an expiration date than a... Only to show 242 00:11:50,015 --> 00:11:51,735 -it at this time. Now- -Mm-hmm 243 00:11:51,735 --> 00:11:56,355 ... I think it's worth discussing how we would actually approach your particular 244 00:11:56,355 --> 00:11:58,895 -problem that you're talking about. -Mm-hmm. 245 00:11:58,895 --> 00:11:59,375 And 246 00:12:00,995 --> 00:12:01,555 maybe, 247 00:12:02,155 --> 00:12:05,275 I don't know. I- I'm actually not sure how I would solve that with Pennant. I think 248 00:12:05,275 --> 00:12:08,195 I would honestly, in that instance, I would literally just put a 249 00:12:09,035 --> 00:12:11,075 timestamp check or something [laughs] like that. 250 00:12:11,075 --> 00:12:13,475 -Yeah. All right. -I would wrap it with a conditional if that 251 00:12:13,475 --> 00:12:14,255 -says- -Yeah 252 00:12:14,255 --> 00:12:18,595 ... if, if, uh, now is passed and then pass in the date- 253 00:12:19,255 --> 00:12:20,295 -Mm-hmm. Yeah -... and then I would... Then that's how I 254 00:12:20,295 --> 00:12:23,303 -would do that probably. -... yeah, this year. This year, we put all 255 00:12:23,303 --> 00:12:26,903 of the, the speakers into the database, so now we just have a, like, publish date 256 00:12:26,903 --> 00:12:28,203 -is in the past. -Ah, so- oh, perfect 257 00:12:28,203 --> 00:12:29,344 -That works fine this time -... there you go. 258 00:12:29,344 --> 00:12:33,103 Yeah. Which is the sensible way of doing it, but last year, we kind of... The, it 259 00:12:33,103 --> 00:12:37,763 was all static HTML really, so we, we put all the spon- uh, the, all the speakers on 260 00:12:37,763 --> 00:12:40,324 -the page that way. And so we're- -Yeah 261 00:12:40,324 --> 00:12:42,723 ... just expecting, like, for each one to then, 262 00:12:43,423 --> 00:12:47,564 t-to, to appear effectively when, when the time is in the past, but didn't work out 263 00:12:47,564 --> 00:12:51,243 that way. Uh, but this year, yeah. It's just a, just a field on the database 264 00:12:51,243 --> 00:12:54,663 that's an announced at or something like that, and we just return all of the 265 00:12:54,663 --> 00:12:58,463 speakers where announced at is less than or equal to now, which is much- 266 00:12:58,463 --> 00:13:00,143 -That makes sense -... easier way of doing it. 267 00:13:00,143 --> 00:13:01,843 -Great way to do that -Don't use feature flags for that. Yeah, 268 00:13:01,843 --> 00:13:03,803 -no. -Absolutely. Great way to do that. So, 269 00:13:04,603 --> 00:13:08,143 so if we're approaching this idea of time bombs as this, as more of, like, an 270 00:13:08,143 --> 00:13:12,143 expiration date, um, I, I would love to talk about that just for a little bit. 271 00:13:12,143 --> 00:13:14,584 And, and essentially, I'll give you the scenario that 272 00:13:15,543 --> 00:13:20,343 we faced that had me looking back into this, which was we had a feature flag that 273 00:13:20,343 --> 00:13:21,523 was, 274 00:13:22,144 --> 00:13:25,863 you know, gate, gating a feature that we had written 275 00:13:26,543 --> 00:13:28,704 and I pushed it out on a Friday 276 00:13:29,624 --> 00:13:31,324 -and promptly forgot. -It's time to push down 277 00:13:31,324 --> 00:13:32,963 -About that feature. -Yeah. Just want to push down 278 00:13:32,963 --> 00:13:36,303 Totally forgot about it. It didn't matter. It was like, "Okay, hey, whatever." So, 279 00:13:37,223 --> 00:13:39,783 uh, I enabled it for a couple users and 280 00:13:40,383 --> 00:13:42,584 the users of us who had it just 281 00:13:43,203 --> 00:13:46,403 looked at it and figured, "Well, everybody must have this," right? We totally forgot 282 00:13:46,403 --> 00:13:49,343 -that we did not release it for everyone. -Yeah. 283 00:13:49,343 --> 00:13:54,563 And so six months later, somebody's like, "Yeah, I don't know how to see, like, if 284 00:13:54,563 --> 00:13:58,203 this file is timed up or not." Like, well, just use the, you know, just use the 285 00:13:58,203 --> 00:14:00,983 -timed up, you know, thing at the top. -Yeah. 286 00:14:00,983 --> 00:14:04,183 They're like, "I've never seen that." And they're like, "Well, like, certainly. 287 00:14:04,183 --> 00:14:07,443 Like, it's right up here. Here's where you should see it." Go into the features 288 00:14:07,443 --> 00:14:13,584 table. Yup, not enabled for anybody except for us. Like, ah, crap. And so what 289 00:14:13,584 --> 00:14:14,404 happened is 290 00:14:15,404 --> 00:14:18,764 we had this feature flag that was not supposed to be around forever. It was only 291 00:14:18,764 --> 00:14:23,543 supposed to be for this beta testing sort of idea. And once it was good, then we 292 00:14:23,543 --> 00:14:28,483 needed to remove it. So the question is, how do you inform yourself when 293 00:14:29,463 --> 00:14:33,923 you should, you know, how do you basically put an expiration date and say, "Hey, by 294 00:14:33,923 --> 00:14:38,023 the time a month has passed, we should have figured out if we want this feature 295 00:14:38,023 --> 00:14:39,563 -or not for everybody." -Mm-hmm. 296 00:14:39,563 --> 00:14:43,583 It should be general release to everybody, or it shouldn't be. 297 00:14:43,583 --> 00:14:45,123 -Yeah. -And, you know, we kinda need to pull the 298 00:14:45,123 --> 00:14:46,203 trigger on one way or the other. 299 00:14:46,823 --> 00:14:50,983 So I asked Tim McDonald. I was like, "How would you do this?" We had a couple ideas 300 00:14:50,983 --> 00:14:55,683 for how we would do it, but the way that he did it was very, uh, clever. And so I 301 00:14:55,683 --> 00:14:58,703 wanted to share the idea that he had, which is, 302 00:14:59,383 --> 00:15:04,043 uh, to put on each one of your feature classes, which again, is the way that I 303 00:15:04,043 --> 00:15:07,583 really prefer to do it, is to use a class-based resolution because you get all 304 00:15:07,583 --> 00:15:10,883 the other things you can do, this behavior, these traits that you can put on 305 00:15:10,883 --> 00:15:14,883 it and whatnot. But you make a trait called is, like, concerned with 306 00:15:14,883 --> 00:15:19,723 expiration, you know, maybe something like that. And inside of there, um, you have a 307 00:15:19,723 --> 00:15:23,023 contract essen- or sorry, maybe it's a contract, not a trait. But it's, uh, a 308 00:15:23,023 --> 00:15:24,983 contract that specifies that you need to have a 309 00:15:25,763 --> 00:15:26,703 is expired 310 00:15:27,403 --> 00:15:29,103 method that returns a Boolean. 311 00:15:29,743 --> 00:15:34,703 And then what you can do is, uh, in that is expired, you can do a date. You could 312 00:15:34,703 --> 00:15:39,103 say now is past a particular time, or you can do other things, right? You can, 313 00:15:39,103 --> 00:15:41,243 there's other things you could do. It doesn't have to just be a date, but you 314 00:15:41,243 --> 00:15:42,623 just return a Boolean from there. 315 00:15:43,323 --> 00:15:44,903 And then what you can do 316 00:15:45,623 --> 00:15:46,003 is 317 00:15:46,883 --> 00:15:52,563 you can, in your service provider, you can say there's an event that says feature 318 00:15:52,563 --> 00:15:56,263 resolved, I think is what it is. So what this does is any time that a feature gets 319 00:15:56,263 --> 00:15:59,403 resolved, even if it's out of the database, if it's grabbing it, 320 00:16:00,263 --> 00:16:01,363 it will look and say, 321 00:16:02,023 --> 00:16:05,043 um, is this an instance of, 322 00:16:05,723 --> 00:16:10,143 you know, or does this extend the contract or implement the contract of, uh, 323 00:16:10,823 --> 00:16:13,843 you know, can expire or something, whatever. Like, what, you know, I'm using 324 00:16:13,843 --> 00:16:15,923 bad names here, but that's the idea, right? 325 00:16:15,923 --> 00:16:18,303 -Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. -And if it is, if it does extend that 326 00:16:18,303 --> 00:16:22,063 contract or implement that contract, then what you do is you check to see is it 327 00:16:22,063 --> 00:16:23,123 -expired. -Yeah. 328 00:16:23,123 --> 00:16:27,123 And if it is expired, then you can do a couple things. So, um, 329 00:16:28,103 --> 00:16:32,583 you know, you could log, warn yourself, something like that. Um, but the thing 330 00:16:32,583 --> 00:16:35,683 that Tim did, which I thought was really cool, is there's this way that you can 331 00:16:35,683 --> 00:16:40,483 check to see if you're running tests currently. Have you ever seen this before? 332 00:16:42,223 --> 00:16:43,963 -So it's like- -The other container that's, like, is 333 00:16:43,963 --> 00:16:44,523 -running- -Yeah 334 00:16:44,523 --> 00:16:46,483 ... running unit tests or something like that. 335 00:16:46,483 --> 00:16:52,043 Yeah. If app dot op running unit tests. So you can do this conditional. You should 336 00:16:52,043 --> 00:16:53,423 say, "If we're running tests 337 00:16:54,143 --> 00:16:55,863 and it's expired, 338 00:16:56,503 --> 00:17:02,543 then we want to throw a runtime exception that says feature has expired." So what 339 00:17:02,543 --> 00:17:08,143 that does then is if you're ever running a test that encounters this feature, and 340 00:17:08,143 --> 00:17:12,603 the feature is expired, it's going to force you to make a decision one way or 341 00:17:12,603 --> 00:17:12,983 -the other. -Yeah. 342 00:17:12,983 --> 00:17:14,423 -You either need to extend- -Extend it 343 00:17:14,423 --> 00:17:16,783 ... the amount of time that you have until it expires. 344 00:17:16,783 --> 00:17:19,943 -Or remove it. Mm-hmm. -Or get rid of it. And I love that because 345 00:17:19,943 --> 00:17:23,003 it does... It's not destructive. It doesn't ever mess you up in production. 346 00:17:23,623 --> 00:17:26,443 Uh, you can have it log if it's in production if you want. 347 00:17:26,443 --> 00:17:27,623 -Mm-hmm. -Instead of throwing that runtime 348 00:17:27,623 --> 00:17:33,203 exception. Um, but it's a great way to ensure that any of your features that 349 00:17:33,203 --> 00:17:38,123 you're putting in place have a reasonable expira- uh, expiration timestamp on them 350 00:17:38,123 --> 00:17:41,303 and that you're forced to deal with them at some point in the future. 351 00:17:41,923 --> 00:17:44,703 -Um, so I thought that was pretty cool. -I like that. 352 00:17:44,703 --> 00:17:47,763 -Yeah. -That is a very Tim thing to do. [laughs] 353 00:17:47,763 --> 00:17:47,963 Mm-hmm. 354 00:17:48,583 --> 00:17:49,883 To put a thing in there. I've, 355 00:17:50,543 --> 00:17:52,443 -I've- -So he wa- so he did... So here's the deal. 356 00:17:52,443 --> 00:17:54,763 He hasn't actually, like, this is not... 357 00:17:55,603 --> 00:17:58,803 This does not exist. You have to just add it on yourself. 358 00:17:58,803 --> 00:17:59,303 -Yeah. -Right? 359 00:17:59,303 --> 00:18:01,643 -Yeah, exactly. Yeah. -That's why I was like, "It would be cool 360 00:18:01,643 --> 00:18:03,543 if it was first party." He's like, "I mean, 361 00:18:04,283 --> 00:18:06,623 I didn't feel like there was a good..." He said, "I didn't feel like there was a 362 00:18:06,623 --> 00:18:09,123 good generic option to put on top of it." So- 363 00:18:09,123 --> 00:18:10,743 -Yeah -... I built the tools. A lot of the users 364 00:18:10,743 --> 00:18:14,183 to decide how they wanna handle it, but it's not, it's not difficult to implement 365 00:18:14,183 --> 00:18:14,343 -it. -Yeah. 366 00:18:14,343 --> 00:18:18,183 -Right? You could see how you would do so. -Yeah. It demonstrates a lot of restraint 367 00:18:18,183 --> 00:18:22,283 on, on his part and on, I suppose, on Laravel's part in general about where you 368 00:18:22,283 --> 00:18:27,083 draw the line in the sand for, for what you do offer as part of the library and 369 00:18:27,083 --> 00:18:31,655 for what you say, "The tools are there. Go and implement it."And, and I think this 370 00:18:31,655 --> 00:18:32,975 is, this is a fairly good 371 00:18:34,675 --> 00:18:39,695 case, use case of the tools that go and implement it yourself. I've, I've gone 372 00:18:39,695 --> 00:18:42,915 back and forth over the years about whether or not 373 00:18:44,356 --> 00:18:49,395 using those kind of conditionals in application code is a good idea or a bad 374 00:18:49,395 --> 00:18:50,356 -idea, you know? -Mm-hmm. 375 00:18:50,356 --> 00:18:54,495 Doing an, like an environment check or doing a, are we running unit tests? Or, or 376 00:18:54,495 --> 00:18:58,455 that kinda stuff to then trigger things because you're, you're putting 377 00:18:59,715 --> 00:19:03,856 test logic inside of your application code to do this kind of stuff. 378 00:19:05,175 --> 00:19:05,535 Erm, 379 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:10,475 I think it's fine, in general. I don't, I don't really see any reason to do that. I 380 00:19:10,475 --> 00:19:14,376 know that in parallel testing and things like that, we will have all kinds of 381 00:19:14,376 --> 00:19:17,955 conditionals that check, like, if the parallel testing token is set, then we 382 00:19:17,955 --> 00:19:21,315 need to go and do this stuff. And then somewhere else we go, "Okay, don't do this 383 00:19:21,315 --> 00:19:24,435 stuff because we are parallel testing," and, and things like that. So 384 00:19:25,235 --> 00:19:27,835 there's definitely cases, I think, where 385 00:19:28,895 --> 00:19:32,635 doing that kind of runtime, testing time logic is good. I think 386 00:19:34,015 --> 00:19:39,295 forcing you to, you know, blow up your... [sighs] It depends on how strict you are 387 00:19:39,295 --> 00:19:44,035 on your continuous integration. Like, if you're running this in CI and it fails 388 00:19:44,035 --> 00:19:46,735 because somewhere between where you pushed a pull request 389 00:19:47,355 --> 00:19:49,495 -into GitHub and some- -Mm-hmm. 390 00:19:49,495 --> 00:19:54,315 And, and when the CI ran, your, your test suite is now failing 391 00:19:55,275 --> 00:19:59,075 because of this expired token or this expired check, 392 00:19:59,775 --> 00:20:01,575 but it's unrelated to the pull request 393 00:20:02,415 --> 00:20:04,155 that, that was pushed up. So I think 394 00:20:04,895 --> 00:20:05,555 that's, like, 395 00:20:06,415 --> 00:20:09,895 that's the one thing that, that sticks to me. It's like, okay, yes, we need to do 396 00:20:09,895 --> 00:20:13,495 something about it. It is now impacting on this unrelated thing, 397 00:20:14,215 --> 00:20:17,515 and it's, you know, a team decision. What do you do with that? Is someone now tasked 398 00:20:17,515 --> 00:20:21,875 with going immediately and, and updating that? Do we... You know, it, it may not be 399 00:20:21,875 --> 00:20:25,775 a decision that gets resolved straight away, depending on the size of the 400 00:20:25,775 --> 00:20:29,175 organization. It, it might be, like, you as a developer or as a founder, you can go 401 00:20:29,175 --> 00:20:33,415 like, "Yeah, I'll just kick that can down the road a week," or, "I'll go and remove 402 00:20:33,415 --> 00:20:36,455 all of those feature flags, and this is now just a feature that's part of the 403 00:20:36,455 --> 00:20:40,775 platform." So yes, it does prompt you to do that, but sometimes that decision 404 00:20:40,775 --> 00:20:42,775 -involves committees. It involves- -Yeah 405 00:20:42,775 --> 00:20:45,395 ... product teams, product managers, things like that. You've gotta go ask. 406 00:20:45,395 --> 00:20:47,915 You've gotta go wait. They don't have an answer. They've gotta go chase it up with 407 00:20:47,915 --> 00:20:50,395 -someone else. -So now you have a blocked PR, yeah. 408 00:20:50,395 --> 00:20:52,955 And meanwhile you've got a blocked PR and a failing test suite, and all of that 409 00:20:52,955 --> 00:20:57,155 -kinda stuff. So, you know- -In fact, every PR is blocked, right? If 410 00:20:57,155 --> 00:20:59,475 you had multiple PRs out there, all of them are blocked. 411 00:20:59,475 --> 00:21:01,015 -Mm-hmm. Yeah. -And every single person is trying to 412 00:21:01,015 --> 00:21:03,115 scramble to figure out what do we need to do with this. 413 00:21:03,115 --> 00:21:06,975 Yeah, yeah. And everyone's going, "Oh, this is failing. Retry fail tests." Like, 414 00:21:06,975 --> 00:21:09,535 'cause they're like, "Oh, this wasn't supposed to fail," you know? Es- 415 00:21:09,535 --> 00:21:13,255 especially, like, we get into situations at work where the, the test suite will 416 00:21:13,255 --> 00:21:13,995 just be flaky. 417 00:21:14,775 --> 00:21:15,135 Erm, 418 00:21:16,055 --> 00:21:20,035 and it's just over time, the, the construct of, of the application has 419 00:21:20,035 --> 00:21:23,475 changed where, you know, you've got factories that, that are resolved in a 420 00:21:23,475 --> 00:21:26,635 certain way. Which is okay when you've got 100 tests, but when you've got 500 tests 421 00:21:26,635 --> 00:21:31,155 or 1,000 tests, those factories can, like, step on each other. You might not have 422 00:21:31,155 --> 00:21:32,735 something that's unique, so 423 00:21:33,715 --> 00:21:33,995 over 424 00:21:34,735 --> 00:21:38,955 enough iterations, you end up with collisions and things because you don't 425 00:21:38,955 --> 00:21:43,015 have the, like, fake, faker Unique applied in there. So there's, like, all these 426 00:21:43,855 --> 00:21:44,175 different 427 00:21:44,815 --> 00:21:45,475 cascading 428 00:21:46,115 --> 00:21:49,035 arbitrary failures that you might not even look at it for a couple of days- 429 00:21:49,035 --> 00:21:50,455 -Yep -... until someone goes, "Hey, this is, 430 00:21:50,455 --> 00:21:51,435 this is failing." So 431 00:21:52,535 --> 00:21:54,155 I like the idea in 432 00:21:54,775 --> 00:21:55,215 theory. 433 00:21:55,895 --> 00:21:56,675 -Mm-hmm. -I think 434 00:21:57,435 --> 00:21:59,555 whether or not it works depends on 435 00:22:00,935 --> 00:22:04,255 the kind of company that you're in and how quickly they respond to that. Like, if 436 00:22:04,255 --> 00:22:04,555 you, 437 00:22:05,235 --> 00:22:07,075 and, like, whether you put that in there at all, 438 00:22:08,175 --> 00:22:11,695 uh, really comes down to how quickly someone is going to respond 439 00:22:12,475 --> 00:22:14,775 when... It may be a case that you log, 440 00:22:15,395 --> 00:22:17,875 you know, for two weeks or something before the failure, 441 00:22:18,735 --> 00:22:22,675 erm, even if you are running in test so that something bubbles up somewhere that 442 00:22:22,675 --> 00:22:23,755 hopefully someone would see. 443 00:22:24,495 --> 00:22:24,855 Erm, 444 00:22:26,095 --> 00:22:26,495 but yeah. 445 00:22:27,215 --> 00:22:27,975 -That's a l- -Yeah, you're, you're- 446 00:22:27,975 --> 00:22:31,455 ... long-winded way of saying that, like, I think in general, I agree with the idea. 447 00:22:31,455 --> 00:22:34,455 I like, I like the idea of putting something [laughs] that explodes in, in 448 00:22:34,455 --> 00:22:35,575 test. Because that's something that 449 00:22:36,435 --> 00:22:40,595 at some point in your release cycle, whether it's during development locally or 450 00:22:40,595 --> 00:22:44,275 as part of CI or deployments, like, something will blow up because of that. 451 00:22:44,275 --> 00:22:47,395 -Yeah. -Erm, and, and what you have in place to 452 00:22:47,395 --> 00:22:50,815 work around it. You know, okay, we can just merge this PR anyway knowing that 453 00:22:50,815 --> 00:22:51,395 this is, 454 00:22:52,015 --> 00:22:52,315 erm, 455 00:22:52,995 --> 00:22:55,355 -unrelated to that pull request. -Yeah. 456 00:22:55,355 --> 00:22:58,895 If you do, if you do automated deploys, it's a bit trickier. Erm, 457 00:22:59,555 --> 00:23:04,195 it depends on, like, if you do... I know with, erm, Laravel's testing stuff, you 458 00:23:04,195 --> 00:23:07,095 -can --fail on your test. -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 459 00:23:07,095 --> 00:23:10,115 And, like, it will f- after the first fail- like, if that's the first failure 460 00:23:10,115 --> 00:23:11,695 and it doesn't get to something else- 461 00:23:12,735 --> 00:23:15,015 -There's just stuff there. -Yeah. Yeah, okay, so this is unrelated to, 462 00:23:15,015 --> 00:23:19,575 to my failure. I'm gonna, you know, ship this anyway. Oh, whoops. There was a, some 463 00:23:19,575 --> 00:23:22,475 error further down in the test suite that didn't get picked up 'cause we bailed out 464 00:23:22,475 --> 00:23:23,395 on this thing. So... 465 00:23:24,515 --> 00:23:25,435 -Yeah. -You know? 466 00:23:25,435 --> 00:23:27,115 -I'll say that the- -Rest reward, I guess. 467 00:23:27,115 --> 00:23:27,975 Yeah. The, 468 00:23:28,695 --> 00:23:33,215 the concerns that you bring up are the s- very same concerns that Andy Hinkle had 469 00:23:33,875 --> 00:23:36,895 when we were going to implement this. He was like, "I don't like the fact that 470 00:23:36,895 --> 00:23:40,195 other developers are gonna have to deal with a feature flag before they can merge 471 00:23:40,195 --> 00:23:43,235 their stuff." So we came up with some ideas and some solutions. The one thing I 472 00:23:43,235 --> 00:23:47,375 will say too, though, is that this, I feel like, follows the convention that has 473 00:23:47,375 --> 00:23:49,375 been brought about in many 474 00:23:50,675 --> 00:23:54,835 different... You know, like we talked about Nuno's, um, thing where it's, like, 475 00:23:54,835 --> 00:23:58,155 just here's the best practices applied to the app service provider. 476 00:23:58,155 --> 00:24:00,175 -Mm-hmm. -Where it's like, disallow n+1 queries or 477 00:24:00,175 --> 00:24:04,815 disallow lazy loading or, you know, those assignment overflow things or whatever. 478 00:24:04,815 --> 00:24:09,155 Like, those, those sorts of things that only fail if you're in local, if you're in 479 00:24:09,155 --> 00:24:11,495 your local environment. You know what I'm talking about? 480 00:24:11,495 --> 00:24:13,075 -Yeah. Yeah, yeah. -So, like, it'll check those things. It's 481 00:24:13,075 --> 00:24:15,795 not gonna blow up in production. It's not gonna blow up in your face. If you happen 482 00:24:15,795 --> 00:24:20,275 to ship it to production, it's gonna be like, "Eh, okay. Just let it go." But if 483 00:24:20,275 --> 00:24:23,855 you're in local dev or in testing, it's gonna blow up in your face and say like, 484 00:24:23,855 --> 00:24:25,535 "Yeah, you can't do that." You, you can't- 485 00:24:25,535 --> 00:24:27,935 -Mm-hmm -... you know, do that lazy load stuff. So 486 00:24:27,935 --> 00:24:33,919 this sort of falls in line with that to me. Um...However, it's not a 487 00:24:34,679 --> 00:24:39,339 yes or a no, or an always or a never. It's, it's only based on some time-based 488 00:24:39,339 --> 00:24:42,199 thing a lot of times, which is... So it's not a right or wrong. It's just like if 489 00:24:42,199 --> 00:24:45,899 you happen to be the guy who runs it just before it expires, or right after it 490 00:24:45,899 --> 00:24:48,059 expires, then you're screwed. You're the one who has to deal with it. So 491 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,700 okay, so how do we address this? Well, 492 00:24:51,580 --> 00:24:56,139 two couple... Two, two different ways I think we could deal with it. Um, one is 493 00:24:56,139 --> 00:24:59,359 that you could, if you're running, 494 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:05,979 uh, your CI on a regular enough basis, you could start dropping warnings a month in 495 00:25:05,979 --> 00:25:10,579 advance of the expiration, right? So you could say, "If it expires in the next 30 496 00:25:10,579 --> 00:25:16,060 days, throw a warning on the tests. If it expires in the next..." You know, if it's, 497 00:25:16,060 --> 00:25:20,500 if it's in the past, then go ahead and throw a failure. You know, something like 498 00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:24,899 that. So that would allow you to be notified of it ahead of it actually 499 00:25:24,899 --> 00:25:29,119 expiring, so that you could fix it. Um, and like, you know, you see it, it's, it's 500 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,459 erroring, or not erroring but it's throwing a warning, and you're like, "Oh, 501 00:25:31,459 --> 00:25:34,679 okay. I should probably make an issue for that so somebody can fix that or make a 502 00:25:34,679 --> 00:25:40,379 decision." We have 30 days to do so. The other thing that we talked about is making 503 00:25:40,379 --> 00:25:44,779 a command that runs once a day at like 6:00 AM, something like that, that runs 504 00:25:44,779 --> 00:25:48,599 through the features, checks if any of them are expired and if they are, sends 505 00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:52,059 off an email or sends it or creates an issue, or whatever you might have that 506 00:25:52,059 --> 00:25:56,439 says, "Hey by the way, these features are expiring within the next 30 days or the 507 00:25:56,439 --> 00:26:00,799 next 7 days," or whatever. Uh, or they are expired and these need to be addressed, 508 00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:04,139 and that's it. You know, so there was... That was, there was a couple options 509 00:26:04,139 --> 00:26:09,019 there. You could say it doesn't ever fail tests, it just sends out a warning to let 510 00:26:09,019 --> 00:26:12,279 somebody know that this needs to be addressed. Um, so there's a couple 511 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:15,019 different ways you could do that there that I could see being effective that 512 00:26:15,019 --> 00:26:19,119 would not necessarily block the team, but could inform a project manager that these 513 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,219 are something that we need to prioritize within the next cycle. 514 00:26:22,199 --> 00:26:24,839 Kind of, you know, deprecation warnings I guess for features. 515 00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:25,859 Yes, exactly that. 516 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:28,599 -Mm-hmm. -Yes, correct. Yep, yep. 517 00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:33,759 Yeah, and I think realistically that's the only way to, to deal with it. And if, if 518 00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:35,679 no one's gonna pick up the deprecation warnings 519 00:26:36,579 --> 00:26:38,119 for the feature flags like that 520 00:26:38,979 --> 00:26:42,239 on a, you know, across a team, across an organization, you know, if you're 521 00:26:42,239 --> 00:26:43,319 involving all these different p- 522 00:26:44,339 --> 00:26:46,039 all these different people, then 523 00:26:46,999 --> 00:26:51,199 probably have bigger concerns to, to worry about. You know, at least sending that 524 00:26:51,199 --> 00:26:54,019 email or that notification in Dislike or whatever else 525 00:26:54,759 --> 00:26:58,899 that happens to be from that scheduled job, scheduled task, is... 526 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:04,039 You know, you've got to address it in some way. Um, and if it goes to enough people, 527 00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:07,239 someone... Well actually, if it goes to too many people everyone's gonna be like, 528 00:27:07,239 --> 00:27:09,519 "I thought someone else was gonna deal with it," and then you've got to be 529 00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:10,559 -careful there as well. -Yeah. 530 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:10,739 So 531 00:27:11,479 --> 00:27:14,839 yeah, keep the, keep the list small but make sure it gets actioned, I guess is the 532 00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:15,319 -main thing. -Exactly. 533 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:19,219 But again, comes down to the team and, like, someone actually taking ownership o- 534 00:27:19,219 --> 00:27:20,219 over that. So 535 00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:22,059 -yeah. -Yep. 536 00:27:22,059 --> 00:27:22,919 -Good, uh- -Yep, you got it. 537 00:27:22,919 --> 00:27:27,659 Good, good problem. Um, I think good, good solution to that problem as well. 538 00:27:29,019 --> 00:27:33,259 Awesome. Yeah, thanks. I, it was, it was a fun one to kind of run down and it was... 539 00:27:33,259 --> 00:27:36,359 Uh, yeah. A couple different approaches there, a couple different concerns, but I 540 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,199 was happy with where we landed on it, so yeah. Stoked about that. 541 00:27:39,199 --> 00:27:42,979 -Mm-hmm. -Okay. Since you talked about your, um, 542 00:27:43,939 --> 00:27:49,579 your speakers on Laracon, um, I think this is a good transition into this other part 543 00:27:49,579 --> 00:27:50,679 which is this, 544 00:27:51,839 --> 00:27:53,579 where do you store values 545 00:27:54,219 --> 00:27:54,699 for 546 00:27:55,659 --> 00:27:57,359 templates in a static 547 00:27:58,999 --> 00:28:02,759 view? Okay, so let me pitch it to you this way. Let's say you didn't have a database 548 00:28:03,399 --> 00:28:08,259 for those team members, or not another team members, for those speakers, right? 549 00:28:09,559 --> 00:28:14,259 Um, because locally you are going to do it and you don't want to have to like... How 550 00:28:14,259 --> 00:28:19,619 do you, how do you populate your database locally and then push that up to 551 00:28:19,619 --> 00:28:22,699 production without having to have access to the production database? You can't 552 00:28:22,699 --> 00:28:26,319 really do that. It's like I know what the values need to be, they're not necessarily 553 00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:31,779 dynamic, it's just I- I don't... Where do I store them, right? Do I... What are my 554 00:28:31,779 --> 00:28:35,279 options? If I, if I can't put them in a database, where are the other places that 555 00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:38,999 I could put them? So I actually came up with one just as we were talking here, but 556 00:28:38,999 --> 00:28:42,039 there was a couple options here that, that were thought about, right? 557 00:28:43,059 --> 00:28:45,519 One is you could literally just dre- like 558 00:28:46,199 --> 00:28:49,099 create a component and then in Blade, just 559 00:28:49,879 --> 00:28:52,699 you don't even bother doing a loop. You just put in the values. 560 00:28:52,699 --> 00:28:54,619 -Yeah. -Right? That's it. Create a component, put 561 00:28:54,619 --> 00:28:58,219 the values in, that is your database essentially, right? You just- 562 00:28:58,219 --> 00:29:00,319 -Mm-hmm -... write them all out in the blade, and 563 00:29:00,939 --> 00:29:06,499 that works. That's fine. Like you just basically, your component is going to have 564 00:29:06,499 --> 00:29:10,099 locations or values, like the values that you would normally store in the database 565 00:29:10,099 --> 00:29:15,639 are gonna be essentially like arguments to that component, right? So like name, 566 00:29:15,639 --> 00:29:17,959 image source, um, 567 00:29:19,199 --> 00:29:21,679 title, announcement date, right, all those things. 568 00:29:22,779 --> 00:29:25,779 Right? Those are gonna be, those are gonna be stored like in the Blade file. 569 00:29:25,779 --> 00:29:26,619 -Yeah. -That's one way to put it. 570 00:29:26,619 --> 00:29:28,279 -Yeah. -That's one spot to put it. 571 00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:29,939 -Yeah. -Um, can you think of any other spots you 572 00:29:29,939 --> 00:29:31,579 might, you might put these things? 573 00:29:32,199 --> 00:29:35,019 I can because this is what we did last year was- 574 00:29:35,019 --> 00:29:38,479 Ooh, okay. I wanna hear, I wanna hear. I want wrong answers only. 575 00:29:38,479 --> 00:29:38,519 -We, uh- -Wrong answers only. 576 00:29:38,519 --> 00:29:41,579 -Wrong answers only [laughs]. Yeah. -Yes. What were the other places you could 577 00:29:41,579 --> 00:29:43,359 -put it? -We created, we created a YAML file that we 578 00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:45,679 -hosted in GitHub that you had to- -Okay 579 00:29:45,679 --> 00:29:48,479 ... in a JS, it was a secret JS... No [laughs], I'm joking. 580 00:29:48,479 --> 00:29:51,639 -I was gonna say, oh dang. Okay. -You said wrong answers only. 581 00:29:51,639 --> 00:29:53,179 -That's crazy [laughs]. -You said wrong answers only. 582 00:29:53,179 --> 00:29:55,659 I- I, at first I thought you were being serious. I was like wait a second, do you 583 00:29:55,659 --> 00:29:58,139 really? Okay. All right, all right. A YAML file in- 584 00:29:58,139 --> 00:29:59,539 -No, we- -... a JS that you were pulling in R. 585 00:29:59,539 --> 00:30:00,019 -In a JS. -Fair enough. 586 00:30:00,019 --> 00:30:00,839 -That's right, yeah. -Yeah. 587 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:02,979 -So if anyone wants to go and- -And then you used Sushi. 588 00:30:02,979 --> 00:30:03,319 ... uh, and scan. Sushi. Yeah, to use as an- 589 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:05,579 Used, uh, Caleb Porzio's Sushi package, yeah. 590 00:30:05,579 --> 00:30:09,339 ... eloquent database. That's right. Uh, no we just, I just put all that stuff 591 00:30:09,339 --> 00:30:12,219 -inside of like a config Laracon.php. -Okay. 592 00:30:12,219 --> 00:30:15,559 And it was just an array of speakers which was keyed by... 593 00:30:17,199 --> 00:30:19,879 Actually, I don't think it was keyed. I think it was just an, an array that we 594 00:30:19,879 --> 00:30:23,459 then pulled out and we, you know, we collected it. We put it in a collection. 595 00:30:23,459 --> 00:30:27,739 We sorted it by announced. We filtered ones that were not, you know, didn't have 596 00:30:27,739 --> 00:30:31,359 an announced in the, in the past and that was it. That's, that's how we did it. 597 00:30:32,099 --> 00:30:35,259 -Yeah. -Um, and then I think w- we just used, you 598 00:30:35,259 --> 00:30:37,959 know, Cloudflare to cache that so we didn't... Well, you know, obviously the 599 00:30:37,959 --> 00:30:41,899 page gets cached so it doesn't have to hit the origin server to, to resolve that in 600 00:30:41,899 --> 00:30:44,219 the future. So yeah, that was, that was it really. 601 00:30:44,911 --> 00:30:48,071 Yeah. Uh, that works pretty good. So, like, you could put it in the config. You 602 00:30:48,071 --> 00:30:50,551 also, if you're being a little bit crazy, you could just chuck it into the 603 00:30:50,551 --> 00:30:52,431 -controller. Like, if you wanted to- -Mm-hmm. Yeah 604 00:30:52,431 --> 00:30:53,811 ... just inline an array in the controller, you- 605 00:30:53,811 --> 00:30:55,732 -Yeah. Sure -... could kinda put it in there. Uh, 606 00:30:55,732 --> 00:30:58,871 that's one way to do it as well. Um, so, uh, my, 607 00:30:59,491 --> 00:31:05,652 my junior-ish developer, he's actually... He's Landon. Landon is his name. Um, he 608 00:31:05,652 --> 00:31:08,711 played basketball a little bit last year at Laracon with me right afterwards. There 609 00:31:08,711 --> 00:31:12,751 was a couple dudes that we all played. Me, David, Hemphill, Landon, and then 610 00:31:12,751 --> 00:31:15,931 three other dudes that absolutely smoked us. It was really fun, but kinda crazy. 611 00:31:15,931 --> 00:31:18,132 -[laughs] -Landon's a great basketball player, junior 612 00:31:18,132 --> 00:31:22,951 developer though, and he's, he's figuring stuff out. And so for him, he ini- or 613 00:31:22,951 --> 00:31:26,191 initially just put it, like, in the controller. Like, he actually had 614 00:31:26,912 --> 00:31:30,711 a method for each. Like, so we had, like, four locations that we were trying to, 615 00:31:30,711 --> 00:31:35,032 like, you know, deal with. And so what he did is he put, 616 00:31:35,811 --> 00:31:38,051 uh, a method in, in the controller. 617 00:31:39,011 --> 00:31:42,651 So you would have, like, a, a value being passed into the controller, um, 618 00:31:43,531 --> 00:31:47,111 like, uh, you know, in the, like, the array that gets passed in to the, to the 619 00:31:47,111 --> 00:31:49,031 -view. I'm sorry, to the view. -Yep. Mm-hmm. 620 00:31:49,031 --> 00:31:53,051 And he would say, like, "Location one, Fat Arrow, 621 00:31:53,871 --> 00:31:56,911 this.get('location1')." And then say, "Location two-" 622 00:31:56,911 --> 00:31:58,611 -Yep. -"... this.FatArrow.get('location2')." So 623 00:31:58,611 --> 00:32:01,411 he was just calling private methods inside the controller that were sort of then 624 00:32:01,411 --> 00:32:03,391 -returning these arrays. And I was like- -Yep 625 00:32:03,391 --> 00:32:03,711 ..." Hmm, 626 00:32:04,451 --> 00:32:08,711 that is fin-" Like, it works. It's probably not how I would do it, but it 627 00:32:08,711 --> 00:32:09,851 -works. And so I- -Yeah 628 00:32:09,851 --> 00:32:13,231 ... was like, "I'm wondering..." You know, config file is the first thing that came 629 00:32:13,231 --> 00:32:15,791 to mind. But for some reason, I remember when looking at it, there were some 630 00:32:15,791 --> 00:32:19,111 reasons why it wouldn't have really worked in a config file. And I think partly 631 00:32:19,111 --> 00:32:24,191 because he was doing some PHP stuff inside of that config file, and, like, it 632 00:32:24,191 --> 00:32:26,371 would've been weird to do it there. Um, 633 00:32:27,031 --> 00:32:27,411 but 634 00:32:28,231 --> 00:32:31,031 the other thing that I'm wondering here is this. If you didn't want to store it in a 635 00:32:31,031 --> 00:32:34,311 config, what if you just put it in a SQLite database and then shipped the 636 00:32:34,311 --> 00:32:35,571 -database up? -Yeah. Yeah, 637 00:32:36,351 --> 00:32:38,431 -totally. -If you put that in somewhere? Like, could 638 00:32:38,431 --> 00:32:41,311 you... Where would you put that, though? Would you... You'd put it in the storage 639 00:32:41,311 --> 00:32:44,071 file or something? I don't know how that typically works. If you put it in the 640 00:32:44,071 --> 00:32:47,071 storage, you have to, like, symlink it or something weird like that if you're using 641 00:32:47,071 --> 00:32:48,971 -Envoyer. -Yeah. I would just, just put it in the 642 00:32:48,971 --> 00:32:52,651 database, 'cause that's, that's where the SQL files go by default. 643 00:32:53,291 --> 00:32:53,851 -If- -Okay 644 00:32:53,851 --> 00:32:56,671 ... you know, if you, if you, if you do a Laravel new and you say you wanna use 645 00:32:56,671 --> 00:33:01,131 SQLite, it will create a database/database.sqlite file inside of 646 00:33:01,131 --> 00:33:04,431 storage. Uh, inside of the database folder, and then you just commit that to 647 00:33:04,431 --> 00:33:07,051 -version control and off you go. -Yeah, 'cause I'm... As, I'm sure initially 648 00:33:07,051 --> 00:33:08,351 it's probably.gitignored maybe? 649 00:33:09,411 --> 00:33:13,071 Hmm, not a... Oh, yeah, maybe database.sqlite specifically, but you 650 00:33:13,071 --> 00:33:14,731 -could just remove it from there, like- -Totally. You could. 651 00:33:14,731 --> 00:33:17,591 Just because Laravel puts it there by default doesn't mean you can't change it. 652 00:33:17,591 --> 00:33:18,551 -Um- -Absolutely. 653 00:33:18,551 --> 00:33:23,391 Yeah. Yeah, shipping, shipping sqlite is fine. Um, who, who was it? Like, was it 654 00:33:23,391 --> 00:33:25,331 Aaron Francis was talking about that for, 655 00:33:26,051 --> 00:33:26,811 for, um... 656 00:33:28,011 --> 00:33:31,751 I think for his aaronfrancis.com. He's, he ships an sqlite file or something like 657 00:33:31,751 --> 00:33:33,571 -that, so. -It seems like the right place to do it, 658 00:33:33,571 --> 00:33:34,311 -right? I mean, like- -[laughs] 659 00:33:34,311 --> 00:33:37,191 ... you literally have, you have the structure in there. You can pull it using 660 00:33:37,191 --> 00:33:41,191 -your, uh, you know, using models and- -Mm-hmm 661 00:33:41,191 --> 00:33:42,091 -... all that good stuff. -And, you know- 662 00:33:42,091 --> 00:33:44,411 So it's like, I don't really see a reason why you wouldn't or why you couldn't. 663 00:33:44,411 --> 00:33:46,771 SQLite is, is made to be small and portable like that. 664 00:33:47,991 --> 00:33:48,991 -Every, you know- -Mm-hmm 665 00:33:48,991 --> 00:33:51,051 -... the, these things, every- -I mean, the problem is it can fill up 666 00:33:51,051 --> 00:33:52,311 -... everyone's iPhones- -It's just a flat file, yeah. 667 00:33:52,311 --> 00:33:55,391 Everyone's Android file. Yeah, it's just, just shove it all in there. Yeah. 668 00:33:55,391 --> 00:33:56,231 -Yeah. -Um- 669 00:33:56,231 --> 00:33:57,491 -Yeah, so I think- -I mean, the other thing you could probably 670 00:33:57,491 --> 00:33:58,251 -do is like a- -... that's, that's an interesting third 671 00:33:58,251 --> 00:34:00,031 -option. Yeah -... a document store. You know, something 672 00:34:00,031 --> 00:34:02,031 that writes JSON to a file, and 673 00:34:03,491 --> 00:34:05,511 -do that, I guess, with, like- -Yeah, but the SQLite thing seems way 674 00:34:05,511 --> 00:34:08,751 better to me. Yeah, as long as you have... I mean, as long as you can set up... You 675 00:34:08,751 --> 00:34:11,471 know, you just have to make sure that every person, each person that's looking 676 00:34:11,471 --> 00:34:11,811 at it, 677 00:34:12,471 --> 00:34:16,631 uh, when they're trying to develop stuff, uh, that they map... Uh, you know, they 678 00:34:16,631 --> 00:34:19,571 can open TablePlus to that sqlite file or whatever, right? So- 679 00:34:19,571 --> 00:34:20,351 Yeah. Yep. 680 00:34:21,031 --> 00:34:24,291 Yeah, that seems like a good way to do it though. Seems like a pretty good way to do 681 00:34:24,291 --> 00:34:29,391 it. Um, portable, light. It's still a mi- it's still a, uh, you know, queryable 682 00:34:29,391 --> 00:34:32,051 -entity. Um, you don't have to write- -You could be- 683 00:34:32,051 --> 00:34:34,911 You don't have to write, like, factories or anything for it. You could just... You 684 00:34:34,911 --> 00:34:37,811 know, you just ship it. You ship the actual data up. 685 00:34:37,811 --> 00:34:38,271 -Yeah. -Yeah. 686 00:34:38,271 --> 00:34:41,391 You could open up TablePlus and use that as your, you know- 687 00:34:41,391 --> 00:34:42,851 -Totally -... as your admin interface- 688 00:34:42,851 --> 00:34:44,331 -Yeah -... to put stuff in there.The only- 689 00:34:44,331 --> 00:34:45,351 -Absolutely, and you've got- -... the only other thing that, th- 690 00:34:45,351 --> 00:34:47,131 ... version control on and everything, you know? 691 00:34:47,131 --> 00:34:50,431 Yeah, yeah. I mean, the only other thing that you might do that's probably a little 692 00:34:50,431 --> 00:34:54,531 bit more approachable in terms of version control is just a, like, a CSV file, 693 00:34:55,371 --> 00:34:56,011 -and then use- -Yeah 694 00:34:56,011 --> 00:34:58,031 ... Switchy to, to, to manage that. 695 00:34:59,471 --> 00:35:00,691 -Yeah. But I like the- -Because then- 696 00:35:00,691 --> 00:35:02,531 -... SQLite. I like the SQLite option. -Yeah. The ISQL- 697 00:35:02,531 --> 00:35:04,791 -And I, I'm not pushing that direction -... is definitely nicer from a, from a dev 698 00:35:04,791 --> 00:35:07,651 perspective. If, if you needed, like, someone else, 699 00:35:08,291 --> 00:35:11,711 you know, someone from product or someone from sales or marketing, whatever, to be 700 00:35:11,711 --> 00:35:15,471 putting data in their CSV would be fine. And just like, "Here's the updated file." 701 00:35:16,211 --> 00:35:16,431 Yeah. 702 00:35:17,151 --> 00:35:19,251 -Yeah. -"Drop it in, overwrite, replace it." You 703 00:35:19,251 --> 00:35:21,011 -know? -Yeah, it's only developers working on this 704 00:35:21,011 --> 00:35:24,851 one, so I think SQLite's gonna be the solution there. And I think that's, um, 705 00:35:24,851 --> 00:35:28,191 that's a really great way to do that. So, uh, we're gonna move towards that, 706 00:35:28,191 --> 00:35:31,471 actually. That's w- exactly what we're gonna do. We're gonna end up doing that 707 00:35:31,471 --> 00:35:32,171 precisely. 708 00:35:32,811 --> 00:35:33,211 Love it. 709 00:35:34,271 --> 00:35:35,931 Love it. Awesome. 710 00:35:37,171 --> 00:35:40,311 Okay, um, what else we have here? 711 00:35:41,851 --> 00:35:46,571 Live photos, staggered CSS animation, defensive programming. 712 00:35:47,571 --> 00:35:49,491 What do you think? Hmm. 713 00:35:50,531 --> 00:35:52,531 So, uh, Matias... 714 00:35:53,591 --> 00:35:57,731 I can't say his last name. Starts with a G. Guimaraes, I think. Uh, he's got a 715 00:35:57,731 --> 00:35:58,591 defensive Laravel 716 00:35:59,311 --> 00:36:02,131 course coming to Laracasts at some point, so it should be cool. 717 00:36:02,131 --> 00:36:04,311 I saw Jeffrey tweeted about that, like, today, I think. Yeah. 718 00:36:04,311 --> 00:36:07,351 Yeah. Yeah, he, um... De- definitely check that out if you're a Laracasts 719 00:36:07,351 --> 00:36:10,171 subscriber. I, uh, I watched his... 720 00:36:10,891 --> 00:36:14,091 -It was Event Sourcing Tour- uh, series- -Mm, yes 721 00:36:14,091 --> 00:36:16,471 ... that he had on Screencast. That was, that was really good. He did a, a good job 722 00:36:16,471 --> 00:36:18,971 of that, so I'm, uh, I'm keen to see 723 00:36:19,731 --> 00:36:20,571 his, um, 724 00:36:22,071 --> 00:36:25,751 his defensive Laravel stuff. Because he, he works at, like, a payment provider or 725 00:36:25,751 --> 00:36:27,331 -something over, over there- -Oh, interesting 726 00:36:27,331 --> 00:36:28,311 ... where he lives in, 727 00:36:29,671 --> 00:36:30,731 pretty sure, Brazil. 728 00:36:31,511 --> 00:36:31,971 -One of the- -Okay 729 00:36:31,971 --> 00:36:36,931 ... Portuguese slash and/or Spanish-speaking nations. Sorry, Matias. 730 00:36:36,931 --> 00:36:38,731 -But, uh, yeah, he, um- -That's right, that's Portuguese, right? 731 00:36:38,731 --> 00:36:39,871 -Yeah. I- -Yeah, he's a- 732 00:36:39,871 --> 00:36:41,271 Did I tell you about that, right? When I said- 733 00:36:41,271 --> 00:36:42,031 -Yeah, yeah -... when I thought 734 00:36:42,031 --> 00:36:45,171 But I couldn't remember if he was from Spain or from Brazil. But I know in 735 00:36:45,171 --> 00:36:45,431 -Brazil- -Oh, gotcha 736 00:36:45,431 --> 00:36:47,871 -... they speak Portuguese. Yeah. So- -Yes, indeed. 737 00:36:47,871 --> 00:36:48,191 Um, 738 00:36:49,171 --> 00:36:55,904 yeah, he...So, he does some very intense things, uh, in terms of, like, the 739 00:36:55,904 --> 00:36:59,944 extremes of what you can do with Laravel, so I can't... You know, he'd be a, he'd be 740 00:36:59,944 --> 00:37:04,523 a... You'd be hard-pressed to find a better teacher for that kind of Laravel at 741 00:37:04,523 --> 00:37:07,763 scale type of thing. So, yeah, keen to check- 742 00:37:07,763 --> 00:37:08,664 -Yeah -... that one out when it drops. 743 00:37:08,664 --> 00:37:13,963 That'll be really good. I'm sure he'll have some excellent sort of tips on using 744 00:37:13,963 --> 00:37:19,643 Laravel tools in order to be sure that you can catch things if they happen terribly, 745 00:37:19,643 --> 00:37:21,063 if they happen to go terribly wrong. 746 00:37:21,723 --> 00:37:24,003 We had something today where, 747 00:37:25,024 --> 00:37:25,503 um, 748 00:37:27,303 --> 00:37:31,803 it was, it was the sequence in which something was working, so we were reading 749 00:37:31,803 --> 00:37:33,563 an email from an email inbox, 750 00:37:34,164 --> 00:37:40,523 we were creating a record for it, and on that database we had a unique column for 751 00:37:40,523 --> 00:37:45,083 the ID of that item from that inbox. So that item from that inbox was given a 752 00:37:45,083 --> 00:37:46,803 unique, like, Outlook message ID. 753 00:37:47,443 --> 00:37:51,463 And so it's, you know, it's a GUID. And so it's, it's unique. You cannot create 754 00:37:51,463 --> 00:37:53,043 another one with that same GUID. 755 00:37:53,763 --> 00:37:58,143 However, the step after we created it was to move it from that location, that 756 00:37:58,143 --> 00:37:59,703 folder, to another location. 757 00:38:00,923 --> 00:38:01,883 If that failed, 758 00:38:02,543 --> 00:38:06,303 right? So you'd move it from the inbox to a folder called Processing or something 759 00:38:06,303 --> 00:38:09,003 like that, right? So we create the record, and then we start to process that email. 760 00:38:09,003 --> 00:38:11,583 We read the body. We read the subject. We do some, you know, 761 00:38:12,683 --> 00:38:16,583 guessing as to where we think it needs to go and basically have our own really 762 00:38:16,583 --> 00:38:21,803 intelligent rule system that we can build up off of that database record, right? So 763 00:38:21,803 --> 00:38:25,743 you create the record, and then you send it to processing. Well, if that sending to 764 00:38:25,743 --> 00:38:29,143 processing fails for some reason, which sometimes is this weird race, race 765 00:38:29,143 --> 00:38:35,383 condition, if it fails, then the email doesn't move, and when the inbox gets 766 00:38:35,383 --> 00:38:38,723 scanned in the next minute, it tries to pick that up again and create the record. 767 00:38:38,723 --> 00:38:41,963 Well, since you have a unique ID, it fails. So 768 00:38:42,703 --> 00:38:47,243 yeah. It, it's like just using simple things like a database transaction around 769 00:38:47,243 --> 00:38:51,543 those two pieces, right? Create it, and then move it. And if it fails while 770 00:38:51,543 --> 00:38:56,023 moving, roll back the creation so that it can try it again next time without hitting 771 00:38:56,023 --> 00:38:59,203 a unique constraint. So those are the sorts of things that we're talking about 772 00:38:59,203 --> 00:39:03,183 here, right? These, you can't anticipate everything that's going to happen. You 773 00:39:03,183 --> 00:39:06,503 don't know all the different failure points, but you can certainly wrap 774 00:39:06,503 --> 00:39:10,023 something into database transaction and roll back if something fails. You can do 775 00:39:10,023 --> 00:39:13,343 that. And that's, you don't have to know everything. You just have to know if 776 00:39:13,343 --> 00:39:19,843 anything fails in here, roll back. Don't leave this unfinished, weird state, um, 777 00:39:19,843 --> 00:39:22,163 that you're gonna have to contend with later, especially if you have- 778 00:39:22,163 --> 00:39:24,543 -Yeah -... constraints around unique values. So I 779 00:39:24,543 --> 00:39:28,623 hope in, in, you know, in his course he, he covers some of those things or, you 780 00:39:28,623 --> 00:39:32,623 know, like the rescue function in Laravel is so insanely awesome. Where if there is 781 00:39:32,623 --> 00:39:35,523 a failure while you're attempting to do something, you can provide a default 782 00:39:35,523 --> 00:39:40,203 return value and just continue the program running as if nothing failed, right? 783 00:39:40,203 --> 00:39:44,763 Those, that's incredibly helpful. So Laravel has a ton of tools to help make it 784 00:39:44,763 --> 00:39:48,703 more resilient and more bulletproof if you know they exist. So I'm sure he'll- 785 00:39:48,703 --> 00:39:50,843 -Yeah -... cover all that stuff and do a great 786 00:39:50,843 --> 00:39:54,123 -job doing so. -Yeah. One, one thing I've been caught out 787 00:39:54,123 --> 00:39:58,663 with by that Rescue helper in the past is typically I'm wrapping something in Rescue 788 00:39:58,663 --> 00:40:00,563 because I don't wanna know about it, and I always- 789 00:40:00,563 --> 00:40:02,983 -Yeah -... I, I have on more than one occasion 790 00:40:02,983 --> 00:40:05,483 forgotten to set the report flag to, to false. 791 00:40:06,183 --> 00:40:06,483 Uh-huh. 792 00:40:07,123 --> 00:40:10,043 So I still, I still get the exception to bubble up, and then I go like, "What is 793 00:40:10,043 --> 00:40:12,783 this?" And then I, I, like, I put the Rescue in there, and I go, "Ah, I forgot, 794 00:40:12,783 --> 00:40:16,643 forgot the, to report." Because the, the place that we mainly use it is when we are 795 00:40:16,643 --> 00:40:19,783 trying to parse dates using Carbon or the- 796 00:40:19,783 --> 00:40:22,783 -Oh -... or the date facade. Because, you know, 797 00:40:22,783 --> 00:40:26,283 you guys use, um, month, day, year, and we use day, month, year. 798 00:40:27,083 --> 00:40:27,563 -But- -Ah, yes. Right 799 00:40:27,563 --> 00:40:32,863 ... if you take something that's day/month/year 800 00:40:34,303 --> 00:40:38,003 and you throw that at date parse, because that's how we would re-enter it into a UI. 801 00:40:38,003 --> 00:40:38,383 Yeah. 802 00:40:38,383 --> 00:40:43,183 When you take day/month/year and put it into PHP, PHP assumes that it is 803 00:40:43,183 --> 00:40:45,723 -month/day/year. -Yeah. 804 00:40:45,723 --> 00:40:50,843 And so what you end up with is something that's, like, 13/3/25. 805 00:40:50,843 --> 00:40:53,023 -Yeah. -And then Carbon goes, "Thanks." 806 00:40:53,023 --> 00:40:53,563 Freaks out. 807 00:40:54,523 --> 00:40:58,503 Um, so yeah. We, we've got in a number of places where we're handling that, you 808 00:40:58,503 --> 00:41:02,983 know, a date create from format, and then we explicitly tell it, like, "This is 809 00:41:02,983 --> 00:41:05,263 -day/month/year." So that- -Yeah 810 00:41:05,263 --> 00:41:08,563 ... it goes, "All right. Yeah, this is, this is the right way round." Um, 811 00:41:09,303 --> 00:41:13,503 and then we fall back to just doing, like, a date pass in case something comes 812 00:41:13,503 --> 00:41:17,623 through as year-month-day or whatever else and then, then gets picked up that way. 813 00:41:17,623 --> 00:41:21,783 But yeah. When it, when it hits that first Rescue, uh, callable 814 00:41:22,543 --> 00:41:25,523 and you don't have the report, then we still get the exception bubble up into, 815 00:41:26,203 --> 00:41:30,423 um, our observability tooling. And it's like, "Oh, yep. I don't really care about 816 00:41:30,423 --> 00:41:31,303 -that," because- -Yeah 817 00:41:31,303 --> 00:41:34,823 ... it's, it's... Like, it will, it will catch the exception from the Rescue, 818 00:41:35,443 --> 00:41:38,523 report it, and then go to the f- the fallback, so you're, like- 819 00:41:38,523 --> 00:41:40,903 -Then it'll continue on, but yeah -But, and then you go, "But this worked. 820 00:41:40,903 --> 00:41:42,923 Why am I...? Oh, okay. Yep. Gotcha." 821 00:41:43,543 --> 00:41:44,283 -So don't, uh- -Yeah, exactly 822 00:41:44,283 --> 00:41:47,103 -... don't miss that one. [laughs] -I'm surprised that there's no, like, 823 00:41:47,103 --> 00:41:51,063 localization thing for Carbon where you can basically just tell it at the top 824 00:41:51,063 --> 00:41:54,923 level, "Hey, we're in Australia. Please handle dates accordingly." 825 00:41:54,923 --> 00:41:55,723 Yeah, yeah. 826 00:41:56,603 --> 00:41:59,163 Probably. Probably is and we just miss it, but, um- 827 00:41:59,163 --> 00:42:00,883 -Yeah. Maybe -... no, 'cause this is an underlying PHP 828 00:42:00,883 --> 00:42:01,423 thing as well. 829 00:42:02,103 --> 00:42:02,423 -Like- -Oh, gotcha 830 00:42:02,423 --> 00:42:05,743 ... if you were to do... Yeah, if you were to do, like, a create, whatever the 831 00:42:05,743 --> 00:42:06,303 underlying 832 00:42:07,103 --> 00:42:08,723 PHP function is, it will do the same thing. 833 00:42:10,023 --> 00:42:10,663 -Got it. -The, the- 834 00:42:10,663 --> 00:42:13,023 -Yeah -... the correct approach for that is to 835 00:42:13,023 --> 00:42:16,723 -use hyphens instead of slashes. -Ah, interesting. 836 00:42:16,723 --> 00:42:20,923 But no one, no one here is going to enter the dates with hyphens instead of slashes, 837 00:42:20,923 --> 00:42:24,183 -because that's just not what we do, so. -Yeah. 838 00:42:25,043 --> 00:42:25,703 -Like, that is- -Yeah 839 00:42:25,703 --> 00:42:28,063 -... I mean, I assume that's- -We don't, we don't do hyphens either. 840 00:42:28,063 --> 00:42:31,483 Yeah. I assume that's, like, the workaround in, at the language level. To 841 00:42:31,483 --> 00:42:34,503 be like, "Oh, yeah, you can do this as long..." But you, you're not gonna tell, 842 00:42:35,203 --> 00:42:37,363 you know, users of your platform who have 843 00:42:38,143 --> 00:42:43,043 become accustomed to using slashes to use hyphens in your application wherever else 844 00:42:43,043 --> 00:42:45,103 -it's just handled, so. -Yeah. 845 00:42:45,103 --> 00:42:45,343 Yeah. 846 00:42:46,463 --> 00:42:47,083 Absolutely. 847 00:42:48,303 --> 00:42:53,243 Well, hey, dude. I think we have a couple things left to talk about next time. Um, 848 00:42:53,243 --> 00:42:55,923 we could probably talk a little bit more about defensive programming and some 849 00:42:55,923 --> 00:43:00,827 examples that we have. We could talk about...... staggered CSS animations, 850 00:43:00,827 --> 00:43:01,348 which is 851 00:43:01,967 --> 00:43:05,868 interesting to me. This is when you go onto a page and you want, like, this 852 00:43:05,868 --> 00:43:10,647 effect of when you hit a certain observability point, and there's a, what's 853 00:43:10,647 --> 00:43:11,367 that called? 854 00:43:12,047 --> 00:43:16,728 Interaction observer? It will animate something in into view. 855 00:43:17,347 --> 00:43:20,708 But if you have, like, three paragraphs of text or something like that right 856 00:43:20,708 --> 00:43:24,327 following each other and you scroll down really fast, you don't want that whole 857 00:43:24,327 --> 00:43:28,487 block to animate and at the same time. You want them to animate in, like, a 858 00:43:28,487 --> 00:43:29,327 -PowerPoint- -One after, yeah 859 00:43:29,327 --> 00:43:31,087 -... like, one, two, three. Yeah. -Mm-hmm. 860 00:43:31,087 --> 00:43:37,948 Which is a little bit tricky to do. And so, um, I think, uh, motion.dev allows you 861 00:43:37,948 --> 00:43:41,667 to do that. We figured out how to do that. I still have to implement it. Uh, 862 00:43:41,667 --> 00:43:47,388 and then this idea of how do we, how do we accomplish live photos on the web, where 863 00:43:47,388 --> 00:43:51,967 if you roll over something, it kind of moves the photo. It kind of gives you this 864 00:43:51,967 --> 00:43:56,208 motion, where it changes from a photo to a video while you're rolled over it, and 865 00:43:56,208 --> 00:43:56,527 -then- -Yeah 866 00:43:56,527 --> 00:43:58,807 ... and then when you roll off it, it, it stops doing that. 867 00:43:58,807 --> 00:44:00,647 -Interesting. -So found some interesting stuff about 868 00:44:00,647 --> 00:44:04,147 that. It'd be, uh, I'd love to kind of talk that through with you and see what 869 00:44:04,147 --> 00:44:04,667 -your thoughts are- -Mm-hmm 870 00:44:04,667 --> 00:44:05,207 ... on that. So 871 00:44:06,107 --> 00:44:08,167 -next show, folks. Come on back and- -Sure 872 00:44:08,167 --> 00:44:08,467 ... um, 873 00:44:09,367 --> 00:44:14,247 you know, hey, uh, to go along with the, uh, the news of, uh, Steve and Erin 874 00:44:14,247 --> 00:44:18,867 breaking up, I, I gotta let you guys know that, um, Michael said he's leaving the 875 00:44:18,867 --> 00:44:22,327 podcast, and it's, he's just leaving it to me. He said, he said he's giving me 876 00:44:22,327 --> 00:44:24,867 -everything. Just take it. -[laughs] 877 00:44:24,867 --> 00:44:27,487 I'm paying, I'm paying him 50% of what it's worth. 878 00:44:28,427 --> 00:44:32,067 -So [laughs]- -50% on anything is nothing. 879 00:44:32,067 --> 00:44:33,987 -Since we haven't had a sponsor. -[laughs] Sorry. 880 00:44:33,987 --> 00:44:34,547 -[laughs] -We are, we- 881 00:44:34,547 --> 00:44:36,447 -Since we haven't had a sponsor in, like- -[laughs] 882 00:44:36,447 --> 00:44:38,607 ... years, I'm getting a steal on this thing. 883 00:44:38,607 --> 00:44:40,547 -That's right. I said, I said to Aaron- -Oh, man 884 00:44:40,547 --> 00:44:45,387 ... that, uh, that the, the unsponsorable, the unsponsorable comment was ruthless. 885 00:44:45,387 --> 00:44:47,127 It was fair, but it was ruthless. [laughs] 886 00:44:47,127 --> 00:44:51,307 -Oh, so funny. So funny. Oh, my. -He'll be fine. 887 00:44:51,307 --> 00:44:52,587 -Well, anyway. -I think, I think he's for himself. 888 00:44:52,587 --> 00:44:56,427 Yeah, I agree. I agree. No, totally, totally. He'll do great. And I think Steve 889 00:44:56,427 --> 00:44:59,467 will do well too. I mean, I think people knowing that he's available, I mean, heck, 890 00:44:59,467 --> 00:45:02,187 when I heard that he was available, I'm like, "Oh, geez. I have a couple things I 891 00:45:02,187 --> 00:45:04,127 could have him do actually." Like, actually- 892 00:45:04,127 --> 00:45:06,187 -I said how- -... one specific thing that I thought of 893 00:45:06,187 --> 00:45:08,707 that I was like, "I would love for Steve to do this," but I knew he wouldn't have 894 00:45:08,707 --> 00:45:09,387 -time. -Yeah. 895 00:45:09,387 --> 00:45:12,967 -So maybe now he does. -Maybe. Get into it. 'Cause I said, "How 896 00:45:12,967 --> 00:45:16,227 long before he'll... How, how long before he lands on the Lara ship?" So... 897 00:45:16,227 --> 00:45:18,367 -[laughs] Right. -Get him before it's too late. 898 00:45:18,367 --> 00:45:23,347 May- Who knows? Maybe that was, uh, maybe that was part of his, his calculation. 899 00:45:23,347 --> 00:45:24,567 Maybe he was like, "You know what? 900 00:45:25,327 --> 00:45:27,367 I can have a job over here if I really wanted one." 901 00:45:27,367 --> 00:45:28,967 -Mm-hmm. -"So maybe I'll just do the job thing for a 902 00:45:28,967 --> 00:45:30,527 -bit." Who knows? -Yeah. 903 00:45:30,527 --> 00:45:34,527 Not making any, uh, assumptions here. Hey, folks, also if you have not bought your 904 00:45:34,527 --> 00:45:37,807 Laracon tickets yet, it's might be too late. But if it's not, you should 905 00:45:37,807 --> 00:45:41,587 definitely go buy them because Michael and I would love to see you there. We're 906 00:45:41,587 --> 00:45:45,167 gonna doing some interviews there. We're gonna be enjoying the show, watching all 907 00:45:45,167 --> 00:45:49,567 the talks, and we would love for you to say hi. So please stop by and say hey. 908 00:45:50,547 --> 00:45:56,967 Look for, uh, the really tall guy and look for the handsome Australian with the, uh, 909 00:45:56,967 --> 00:46:02,327 other cursing Australian next to him. That will be Aaron. Uh, OG, OG Aaron. 910 00:46:02,327 --> 00:46:03,627 -[laughs] -OG Aaron. 911 00:46:03,627 --> 00:46:08,087 [laughs] OG Aaron making an appearance again at Laracon US. 912 00:46:08,087 --> 00:46:09,687 -Yeah. -He's gonna be a riot. I can't wait to see 913 00:46:09,687 --> 00:46:09,947 him. 914 00:46:10,607 --> 00:46:10,887 Fun. 915 00:46:11,607 --> 00:46:12,547 -It'll be good fun. -Awesome. 916 00:46:13,307 --> 00:46:16,787 Episode 178, folks. Thanks for tuning in. You can find us at North Meets 917 00:46:16,787 --> 00:46:21,187 South.audio/178. Hit us up on X or on BlueSky at Jacob Bennett, at Michael 918 00:46:21,187 --> 00:46:25,547 Dorando, or at North South Audio. And, uh, if you liked the show, rate it up in your 919 00:46:25,547 --> 00:46:28,587 podcast app of choice. Five stars would be amazing. Thanks, folks. If you'd like 920 00:46:28,587 --> 00:46:29,607 to sponsor us, 921 00:46:30,467 --> 00:46:34,847 also talk to us on those channels. It won't happen. But if you'd like to, we'd 922 00:46:34,847 --> 00:46:37,967 love for you to. But until next time, we'll see you. 923 00:46:38,767 --> 00:46:39,067 Oh.