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Welcome to ChannelWaves, the podcast where channel

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leaders share success strategies, best practices and emerging

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trends, brought to you by StructuredWeb.

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Here's your host, Steven Kellam.

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Welcome, everyone, to ChannelWaves.

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StructuredWeb's view into everything channel.

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I'm your host, Steven Kellam and very excited

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to have Meaghan Sullivan-Moore, Head of Ecosystems

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and Mid Market at SAP joining us today. Welcome, Meaghan.

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Thank you so much, Steven.

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Such a pleasure to be here with you.

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Yeah, look, we started this out.

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I'm going to take everyone back a little bit.

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We started out, Meaghan did the first

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podcast for me at StructuredWeb.

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And we had also done several podcasts other places.

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And we had been talking about how do

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partners need to change, what do they need

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to do to not do the status quo?

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I got a great quote from you that I've used on

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several webinars, by the way, about partners need to change the

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status quo and figure out how to drive revenue.

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And listeners, we've had lots of great endeavors,

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we've had lots of great conversations about that.

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But the reason I reached out to Meaghan to

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have this one, this podcast in particular, from my

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perspective, the grounds has shifted so much, not just

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over the past three years with pandemic, supply chains,

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everything that's happened to stress out the world.

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Now you throw what's happened from a human

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resources perspective with this economic downturn and I

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don't know anybody who doesn't know someone who

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has not been affected by this. Right?

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So we're having these conversations about driving revenue,

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automating everything, simplifying, all these great suggestions or

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great ways to make marketing work.

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But how do you do that when you

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have less resources without your head exploding?

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So, I guess what we want to talk

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about today is really the channel psyche.

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And I wanted to tap into Meaghan's knowledge

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as really, I would say as a manager.

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And that when you have to do more with less.

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How do you do that?

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How do you deal with people?

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How do you motivate them?

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I think the title of this, just to tell everybody

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is going to be: How do you get your head,

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and I think and heart, into the marketing game today.

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So sorry, that was a long dive into that,

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but obviously there's been a lot going on.

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I think it's an amazing topic. Yes.

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COVID stressed out the world, for sure.

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And just when we thought that was

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over, the hits just keep on coming.

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Now we've got the recession, we've got things

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around the world happening that are terrible.

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The bank failure going on, multiple layoffs

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at companies impacting the entire tech industry.

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It's a very stressful world out there.

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And so I think it's more important than ever for

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leaders to be paying attention to that and to keep

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a pulse on what's happening with their employees.

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I mean, in simplest terms, where do you start?

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Are there three mantras to this in Meaghan's world,

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if I'm trying to make all this happen, what

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are the three things that you have to deal

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with that would help you make your team successful?

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I guess that's really where I'm driving.

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Well, I think, number one, first and foremost, I always

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like to start at 50,000 foot level, at a strategic

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level, and we set the tone as leaders.

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Our organization, very similar to our CEO, set

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the tone as an example for our company.

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So it's super important that the mood and the

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temperament is going to start with us, right?

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So really taking care of ourselves, or myself as

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an example, making sure I'm healthy, making sure I'm

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taking care of myself, making sure I'm being vulnerable

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and being honest about where I am in my

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life, I think is very important.

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Because if the team sees there's a bit of vulnerability

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and nothing's perfect and we're all in this together as

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an example, I think that makes people feel better.

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And it's okay to not be okay kind of scenario.

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So I think it starts at the top and

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what kind of tone we want to set.

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So I always like to say we can wake up

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with a headache every day, or we can wake up

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feeling great and that we're going to have a great

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day and push through it and make it great.

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And I really do think it's all in your head.

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I can't believe I'm going to actually quote

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Buddha on this, but I think Buddha said,

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"pain is inevitable, suffering is optional".

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But I actually saw that the other

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day, because what you're talking about, and

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I think that cuts across every leader.

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Actually, it's not even just if you're leader a team.

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If you're in a team and you're dealing with other

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people, what choices do you make on what that day

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is like, then that sounds so much easier than it

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is to do, because we all wake up today with

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lots of things on our minds.

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I don't know if it's that hard, though.

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Of course, I live in a glass half full world.

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I can find the silver lining in anything.

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It's just kind of how I roll.

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But I really do think that if we can look up

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to our leaders and say, you know what, to your point,

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they have a lot of pain in their life, but they

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have chosen to keep the glass half full.

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They've chosen to see the silver lining.

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I think that kind of bleeds into everyone.

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That kind of incents them to look

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the same way in some cases.

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Not everyone can do it.

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But I do think that we have to stay positive and

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motivate and yet at the same time be vulnerable about, yeah,

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I'm having a bad day, things kind of suck.

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But having said that, I'm going to choose to wake

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up on the right side of the bed and choose

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to look at the light rather than the dark. Okay.

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I think that goes back to

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some basic principles of life, right?

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For instance, how much do you listen

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versus how much do you talk?

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And are you truly listening?

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Do you choose to, as you say, be positive?

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I mean, there's so many things out there.

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No one wants to listen to someone complain.

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I think that's just like the

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simplest things in life, right?

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Whether you have with your friendships or with

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your spouse or with your partner or whoever,

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I think those life lessons can be really

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drawn on from the business lessons.

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And sometimes, I don't know.

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You think it's easy?

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Look, I'm an optimist too, but I don't know,

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I don't think it's that easy for some people.

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I think one easy thing to do that I

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do since January 1, I've done this every single

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day, is just find one thing to say.

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Today I'm grateful for X and my 23 year old

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daughter and I exchange a text message every day.

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She's now just graduated from college. Every single day.

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We have not missed yet of I'm grateful for and

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name it, whatever it is, it could be the sunshine.

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Today she said, I'm grateful for Zoom calls,

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which was great because she didn't have,

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her dressy pants on that day. Okay.

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I was going to wonder where that was going to go. Sure.

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Okay, look, we'll call those optimism hackers.

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Optimism hackers. Good. Yeah.

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Just be optimistic.

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My second thing is how to lead in times of great

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turmoil, I believe, is really sharing context of kind of why

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you're asking your team to do something for them.

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So, for example, I think so often we'll get a

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fire drill or something from our manager saying, I need

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this, or fill out this template, we got X amount

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of time, or do this or whatever.

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I think it's really important to share the context

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of the strategy coming down from above on why

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you're asking people to do things rather than just

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kind of ask for a point in time project.

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Because if they understand the context behind

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what's going on and why the ask

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is covering, we hire very intelligent people.

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They're going to have some great innovative and creative ideas

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that have come out that we didn't think about.

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That's why we pilot these people is

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because they're experts in their field.

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And so the more context we can give them, I

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think the greater productivity and innovation will come out.

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Once again, I completely agree with you, but

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I think that that's good at any time.

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But I also think that gets harder when you

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have less resources, when you're working on a smaller

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team and your work is more and now on

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your smaller team, you got more deliverables.

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I think it's almost human nature. It is

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for me, to go, I just need to get this done.

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And I don't think that's right.

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I think you're absolutely right.

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But I think people have to take that first

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thing that you said about taking care of themselves

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and kind of get centered on that so they

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can remember to be patient and to ask questions

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and to realize that others have great ideas.

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But I have to force myself look, I have to wrote

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down you can't see it up there is to be patient.

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I understand my strength and my weaknesses and I literally

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every day have to have this up there to remember.

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I've got same thing super intelligent people.

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And I think today I'm agreeing with you even more that people

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want to be a part of that big picture the solutions and

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you got to listen and you got to be patient.

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I have a note behind me this is slow down.

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So in order to know okay, patient, slow down.

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About the same thing, I'm sure everyone has that.

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But I think it's really critical because I know some

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people who are looking at in this time and there's

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optimism, but also there's people, I believe that see us

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as an opportunity to shine and to do well and

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to get their ideas and to be successful.

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So I think there's also a lot of that

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but as a leader or a coworker, it doesn't

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really matter whether it's sideways or up or down.

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I do think we have to slow down a little bit.

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I'm not so sure the world

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is sending that message right now.

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No, it's go faster, faster, faster, immediate, I

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want instantaneous results, all that kind of stuff.

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But I do think no matter what level

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you're at, if you're asking somebody to do

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something for you, you can slow down.

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I need to slow down, right.

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Give them the context of why you're asking for it

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and why you need it done and what needs to

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be done, and brainstorm a little bit on kind of

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here's my challenge, what I'm trying to figure out.

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It doesn't take very long to do that.

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And I'm telling you, the results you'll get from the other side

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and them lending their ideas and some context that they have, it's

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going to be better if you take a little bit of time

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or prep just to kind of set the tone.

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I think it makes a huge difference.

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One thing I've done, we're talking about hacks, right,

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is I've had meetings where I've had them very

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free flow in the past right here's, an hour

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meeting there's four of us together.

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I've actually worked and created more context

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or broken out in those meetings.

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I've done more of an agenda setting not

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to tap it down but to make sure

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that everyone has their chance to do this.

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I should get more organized right next to be patient

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and slow down because we can't waste our time as

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much but we still want to give as much input.

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So I'm trying to figure out maybe this help.

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I'm trying to figure out how I

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talk less and I listen more.

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And the way for me to do it was to

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put more structure into my meetings, but not to tap

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things down, but so I could get be more prepared.

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I'm preparing more for meetings now than I ever

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had before so that I don't have to do

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some of those things and let other people shine.

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Yeah, I love that.

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I think, too, there's a beauty

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to simplification and stop doing things.

254
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I think especially in bigger companies.

255
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In smaller companies, not so much, but in bigger companies,

256
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we tend to have things that we've done for years,

257
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and they're just kind of innate, and we do them.

258
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When we do that, we do them.

259
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But so much of it is necessary. Right.

260
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So really taking the time to your point of

261
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kind of set the agenda, get ready for the

262
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meeting, what are we really working on?

263
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Like, do we really need to run this report anymore?

264
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We've been running it for six years.

265
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Is anybody even looking at it?

266
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I've had so many instances where we kind

267
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of do this with the team and we

268
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really scrub down and we stop doing something.

269
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Nobody says anything about it.

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It's like, okay, well, that was great.

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I mean, sometimes one person might care, but I think we

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really need to simplify in this day and age as well.

273
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There's too much noise.

274
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There's too much going on. Right.

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And I think that all goes back

276
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to your point of letting people know

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the context, why you're doing those things.

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I had a meeting the other day, and I've

279
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got in the habit of sending the agenda and

280
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writing some of the pieces around it.

281
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It's so funny.

282
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One of the persons sent me back and said, well,

283
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I guess we don't need to have the meeting.

284
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We had an hour, and we

285
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actually handled it all through email.

286
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And it's not that we don't want to be

287
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together or spend time, but we just basically growth

288
00:12:19.762 --> 00:12:21.148
hacked that thing out of there, right?

289
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And I'm like, okay, that's a pretty cool way to look that

290
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I mean, I have an employee that before every one on one,

291
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she will send me her kind of bi weekly one on one.

292
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She'll send me her list of,

293
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here's everything I want to cover.

294
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And it's literally like bullet

295
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points, sub sub bullet points.

296
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And it's so thorough that by the time I get

297
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on the call, we're super efficient because I can say,

298
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okay, we don't need to cover one, three, and seven.

299
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I just want to hit two and five right now.

300
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And it's fantastic.

301
00:12:46.410 --> 00:12:48.884
I think we both feel more efficient for it, and

302
00:12:48.884 --> 00:12:51.124
I think that's a great way to empower people, too.

303
00:12:51.124 --> 00:12:53.546
I'm not telling we don't need to have this meeting.

304
00:12:53.546 --> 00:12:55.874
They're telling me that they can do this and we don't

305
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need, which I think we're all like, that's great.

306
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We'll do it every other week.

307
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And I think in context and going back to it,

308
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that's a great way to ask it in this times. Right?

309
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Okay, we need to do this.

310
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How can we be more efficient? What works for you?

311
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And you find people that are talented like, that can make

312
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things work offline just as they can do it online.

313
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And then for number three.

314
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Are we ready for three?

315
00:13:15.824 --> 00:13:17.318
Well, I think number three plays

316
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very well into all that.

317
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We're ready for number three. Yeah.

318
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So I think there's nothing more

319
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important than empathy right now.

320
00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.284
And let's go back to you. Listen.

321
00:13:25.284 --> 00:13:27.796
That listen, that's the second

322
00:13:27.796 --> 00:13:28.772
thing I have written down.

323
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I had to slow down and listen.

324
00:13:30.228 --> 00:13:33.476
Second, they're interrelated, but our employees are

325
00:13:33.476 --> 00:13:36.136
going through so much externally in their

326
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personal lives that we don't understand.

327
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And because we are at work so many hours

328
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of the day, unfortunately they bring that to work

329
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because our lives are so intertwined right now between

330
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personal, so really taking the time to understand where

331
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people are, what challenges are they facing, and how

332
00:13:53.452 --> 00:13:58.092
can we help them through those difficult times, be

333
00:13:58.092 --> 00:13:59.948
empathetic towards their situation?

334
00:13:59.948 --> 00:14:01.100
Because I think when you do

335
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that again, it's that vulnerability thing.

336
00:14:02.832 --> 00:14:04.368
When you open up a little bit, when you

337
00:14:04.368 --> 00:14:07.392
get empathetic, our employees are going to be way

338
00:14:07.392 --> 00:14:11.328
more productive, which is amazing, but they're also going

339
00:14:11.328 --> 00:14:14.996
to feel like they're respected and they're included and

340
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that they have a seat at the table with

341
00:14:16.548 --> 00:14:18.080
you, which I think is super important.

342
00:14:19.170 --> 00:14:20.212
So what do you think about

343
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the difference between sympathetic and empathetic?

344
00:14:25.170 --> 00:14:26.452
It's the classic term, right?

345
00:14:26.452 --> 00:14:27.934
Sympathetic would just be like, oh, I'm

346
00:14:27.934 --> 00:14:29.432
so sorry you're going through that.

347
00:14:29.432 --> 00:14:31.272
Empathetic is really digging into

348
00:14:31.272 --> 00:14:33.262
it and feeling their feelings.

349
00:14:33.262 --> 00:14:35.128
Or like, if I had an experience in my

350
00:14:35.128 --> 00:14:36.792
life that were similar to that, I'm going to

351
00:14:36.792 --> 00:14:38.680
feel that empathy of what they're going through.

352
00:14:38.680 --> 00:14:40.732
There are many times where I can't be empathetic. Right.

353
00:14:40.732 --> 00:14:42.284
What they're going through, some of it

354
00:14:42.284 --> 00:14:45.804
is unimaginable because we've been together for

355
00:14:45.804 --> 00:14:46.812
a long team, large team.

356
00:14:46.812 --> 00:14:48.620
We've been through a lot of life together.

357
00:14:48.620 --> 00:14:52.032
And some of it, it just breaks my heart.

358
00:14:52.032 --> 00:14:53.286
But I can't be empathetic.

359
00:14:53.286 --> 00:14:55.008
But I can sympathize with them and

360
00:14:55.008 --> 00:14:57.648
understand they need space or time or

361
00:14:57.648 --> 00:15:00.192
more support or whatever that could be. Yeah.

362
00:15:00.192 --> 00:15:01.492
Look, I think it all goes back

363
00:15:01.492 --> 00:15:04.750
to everything you've tied in the context,

364
00:15:06.130 --> 00:15:08.218
the asking the questions and listening.

365
00:15:08.218 --> 00:15:10.474
I think the only way to be empathetic

366
00:15:10.474 --> 00:15:13.060
is to listen and to figure out, especially

367
00:15:13.060 --> 00:15:17.460
when we're in this world where people are

368
00:15:17.990 --> 00:15:20.446
in different areas, they're doing Zoom meetings.

369
00:15:20.446 --> 00:15:23.000
You don't have as much of the personal side for us.

370
00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:24.536
We're still remote, right.

371
00:15:24.536 --> 00:15:26.718
Most of us are still working remotely.

372
00:15:26.718 --> 00:15:28.072
And I think you have to listen

373
00:15:28.072 --> 00:15:29.804
and you have to ask those questions.

374
00:15:29.804 --> 00:15:31.148
And I think the biggest thing is

375
00:15:31.148 --> 00:15:33.800
when you ask those questions, actually listen.

376
00:15:34.410 --> 00:15:35.724
Yes, I think so.

377
00:15:35.724 --> 00:15:38.098
And I think by giving them that empathy or sympathy

378
00:15:38.098 --> 00:15:40.994
or whatever, whichever side of it, I'm down with empathy.

379
00:15:40.994 --> 00:15:42.016
I think empathy is way better.

380
00:15:42.016 --> 00:15:43.808
I think people both in sympathy all the

381
00:15:43.808 --> 00:15:45.414
time, and I think they should be empathetic.

382
00:15:45.414 --> 00:15:49.296
I completely but again, I think by doing that, though,

383
00:15:49.296 --> 00:15:53.104
your employees will be more productive and more loyal, and

384
00:15:53.104 --> 00:15:55.188
they'll be able to be better employees because of it

385
00:15:55.188 --> 00:15:58.148
if you just give them a little bit of love. Right.

386
00:15:58.148 --> 00:16:00.628
I just think in today's day and age, there are a

387
00:16:00.628 --> 00:16:04.630
lot of stresses going on for everyone at every level.

388
00:16:04.630 --> 00:16:05.096
Yeah.

389
00:16:05.096 --> 00:16:07.432
So why don't we wrap it up with this, right?

390
00:16:07.432 --> 00:16:10.286
So what do you think about genuine and not genuine?

391
00:16:10.286 --> 00:16:12.580
Because everything we talked about,

392
00:16:15.030 --> 00:16:16.830
people are very perceptive.

393
00:16:16.830 --> 00:16:17.890
I think people have gotten

394
00:16:17.890 --> 00:16:19.180
well, curious what you think.

395
00:16:19.180 --> 00:16:21.548
I think people have learned to even figure out

396
00:16:21.548 --> 00:16:25.270
and are perceptive about genuineness, even on remote.

397
00:16:27.610 --> 00:16:30.588
I think it's almost impossible to hide that these days.

398
00:16:30.588 --> 00:16:32.976
And I'm not so sure everyone's I'm not

399
00:16:32.976 --> 00:16:35.056
sure everyone's great at being genuine yet.

400
00:16:35.056 --> 00:16:37.888
Well, you got people people and

401
00:16:37.888 --> 00:16:39.488
you got non people people. Right.

402
00:16:39.488 --> 00:16:41.088
Not everyone is going to be

403
00:16:41.088 --> 00:16:43.328
skilled in leading with the heart. Right.

404
00:16:43.328 --> 00:16:44.628
There's a lot of people that will lead with

405
00:16:44.628 --> 00:16:47.092
data or lead with mind, and that's awesome too. Right.

406
00:16:47.092 --> 00:16:50.490
They're completely two different skill sets.

407
00:16:50.490 --> 00:16:52.218
But I think if you can be authentic

408
00:16:52.218 --> 00:16:54.180
to who you are, that's going to show

409
00:16:54.180 --> 00:16:55.946
whether you're genuine or not genuine.

410
00:16:55.946 --> 00:16:57.940
I mean, I lead with my heart, right?

411
00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:01.918
What I aspire to be is very authentic.

412
00:17:01.918 --> 00:17:04.958
I am who I am at work as I am who I am personally.

413
00:17:04.958 --> 00:17:06.488
I'm not two different people.

414
00:17:06.488 --> 00:17:09.372
If you're someone who leads with your mind

415
00:17:09.372 --> 00:17:11.452
and leads with data and not so much

416
00:17:11.452 --> 00:17:13.516
in touch with the heart, that's okay, too.

417
00:17:13.516 --> 00:17:15.692
If you listen to your point, listen

418
00:17:15.692 --> 00:17:17.452
to your employees, try and understand.

419
00:17:17.452 --> 00:17:19.980
Let them know that I really would like to understand

420
00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:22.060
what's going on so that I can help you.

421
00:17:22.589 --> 00:17:26.422
You don't have to kind of lean in and cry

422
00:17:26.422 --> 00:17:28.608
and have a hug out, but I think as long

423
00:17:28.608 --> 00:17:32.320
as you're really listening and really trying to hear them,

424
00:17:32.320 --> 00:17:35.232
that helps a lot in the genuine side.

425
00:17:35.232 --> 00:17:38.208
Okay, so any last thoughts? Here,

426
00:17:38.208 --> 00:17:39.268
I'll ask you this.

427
00:17:39.268 --> 00:17:40.484
What do you think it looks like for

428
00:17:40.484 --> 00:17:41.812
the next we'll just wrap it up.

429
00:17:41.812 --> 00:17:42.708
What do you think it looks like

430
00:17:42.708 --> 00:17:43.512
for the rest of the year?

431
00:17:43.512 --> 00:17:45.704
What does 2023 look like

432
00:17:45.704 --> 00:17:47.902
from Meaghan Sullivan's perspective?

433
00:17:47.902 --> 00:17:54.008
Well, the optimistic side in me now, the realist in

434
00:17:54.008 --> 00:17:55.780
me, says it's going to be a tough year.

435
00:17:57.110 --> 00:17:59.656
Even the collapse of some of the banks last week.

436
00:17:59.656 --> 00:18:01.298
I think that we're at the tip of the iceberg.

437
00:18:01.298 --> 00:18:02.732
I think there's a lot more coming on that

438
00:18:02.732 --> 00:18:05.874
that's going to have ramifications on businesses throughout.

439
00:18:05.874 --> 00:18:09.052
I think the recession is going to continue to get

440
00:18:09.052 --> 00:18:13.158
deeper with so many layoffs and people looking for jobs.

441
00:18:13.158 --> 00:18:15.712
I think we've got that stressor in the market.

442
00:18:15.712 --> 00:18:18.102
I think 2023 is going to be a very stressful

443
00:18:18.102 --> 00:18:21.728
year and is exactly why I am expressing gratitude every

444
00:18:21.728 --> 00:18:24.032
day to find the positive and to remember to keep

445
00:18:24.032 --> 00:18:27.194
myself kind of in that stay positive.

446
00:18:27.194 --> 00:18:28.324
Because I do believe in you, and

447
00:18:28.324 --> 00:18:29.812
I have talked about this before.

448
00:18:29.812 --> 00:18:31.204
I believe what you put out in

449
00:18:31.204 --> 00:18:32.740
the universe will come back to you.

450
00:18:32.740 --> 00:18:36.516
So if I personally can be positive and grateful and

451
00:18:36.516 --> 00:18:40.334
know that there's goodness out there, I think the universe

452
00:18:40.334 --> 00:18:41.736
will serve up what I need this year.

453
00:18:41.736 --> 00:18:43.128
Well, Megan, thanks for joining us.

454
00:18:43.128 --> 00:18:44.782
I greatly appreciate listeners.

455
00:18:44.782 --> 00:18:46.088
Thank you for joining us.

456
00:18:46.088 --> 00:18:49.080
And we do hope that the rest of the year

457
00:18:49.080 --> 00:18:51.372
is good for everyone, as good as it could be.

458
00:18:51.372 --> 00:18:53.164
And I do agree with if you're genuine about it

459
00:18:53.164 --> 00:18:57.276
and you're positive about it, it's amazing the impact and

460
00:18:57.276 --> 00:18:59.516
the change that you can make with people every day.

461
00:18:59.516 --> 00:19:01.372
But for me, I got to do it every day.

462
00:19:01.372 --> 00:19:02.508
I have to remind myself every

463
00:19:02.508 --> 00:19:04.658
day because I know my weaknesses.

464
00:19:04.658 --> 00:19:07.196
And, Steven, today, I'm grateful for you. Thank you.

465
00:19:07.196 --> 00:19:08.230
Okay. I'm grateful.

466
00:19:09.370 --> 00:19:09.788
All right.

467
00:19:09.788 --> 00:19:10.700
Every and have a great day.