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Hi everyone.

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Welcome to Long Game, a Heated Rivalry podcast.

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My name is Sylvan and I'm joined by Daclan.

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And we are joined with Jen from the Book Refuge for our part two into Heated Rivalry
fanfiction and AO three.

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So thank you so much for joining us again, Jen.

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I'm so excited to be here.

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This is the best part of the week for me.

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I'm so happy.

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We had so many lovely comments from last week's video.

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And if anyone's just sort of joining us in part two, be sure to go back, listen to part
one, because Jen breaks it down and gives me an education on all things fanfiction, all

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things AO3 and Wattpad.

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So it was such an informative way to for me to sort of get immersed into it and understand
that I wasn't the only one.

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There were so many comments about

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how other people, you know, had been fan fiction sort of readers for many, many years and
some people were just starting out like me.

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So it was such, such a lovely conversation to have and to sort of bring this up.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's it surprises me how far back it goes.

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You know, there's a there's a lot of people who've been reading fanfic since the very
beginning of it.

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And I mean, I've been reading it for six years now and I'm still like, wow, people were
reading this when they like sent it to each other back and forth.

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Like before like before the internet people were reading fanfic and sending it to one
another, which is amazing.

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And so just to recap then, from episode one, you know, we talked a lot about sort of the
culture around fan fiction.

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And this time what we're going to do in episode two is really get into the actual stories
that people love and people are writing.

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exciting.

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We did all our homework last time.

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Exactly.

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So now we get to have fun with it.

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And so one of the things that I was thinking about after our conversation last week, Jen,
was, you know, what are the big stories and big tropes in Heated Rivalry specifically?

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So one of the things that I did to try to like think about how to encapsulate this because
it actually is really difficult to narrow it down to anything because when we use the word

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trope to me that's you know the enemies to lovers, rivals to lovers, sports, mm romance.

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Like to me that's what tropes are and you know that's how we might make lists of heated
rivalry ends up on an mm romance list or on a

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hockey list but you know the tag system that we talked about last week that's more how a03
breaks things up is by those tags because that's what people are generally looking for

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when they're going to find one they already know it's gonna be a rivals to lovers it's
gonna be hockey it's gonna be mm unless it's an au with an alternative universe as we'll

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get into but I did pull up the top 10 tags

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that are associated with Heat of Vibory.

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And I thought we could maybe I'll list those off for you guys.

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em And what's funny is that a lot of uh fan fiction is very specific because that's what
we are looking for.

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So some of these will seem like, that's sweet.

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And some of them are like, OK, we felt the need to list that.

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And you'll see what I mean in just a second.

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So what you can do with into AO3,

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once you filter to, as I mentioned last time, there's 35,000 Heated Rivalry fanfics
currently.

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That includes one's boat.

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Declan, maybe this is news to you.

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Yes.

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Yes, and that's on the small end.

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Yeah, that's on the low end.

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It is going up all the time.

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That does include things with crossovers.

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It includes ones that are one shot.

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So let's say they're only thousand words or

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They're even just one scene someone wanted to write from a different angle or something
like that.

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uh But in general, all of those that are under Heated Rivalry TV and the Game Changers,
there's 35,000 of them.

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The top 10 tags within that are, Ilya Rozhanov loves Shane Hollander, of course.

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It's gonna be tagged that way, very cute.

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Shane Hollander loves Ilya Rozhanov.

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Though I will say there is uh significantly less

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that are tagged as Shane loves Ilya.

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So I don't know what people are trying to say with that, but I think there's some equal
love that should be going around.

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The next one is a tag that you will find within every fan fiction and that is simply
fluff, which means nothing too angsty is going to happen there.

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There's the alternative universe tag or canon divergence tag.

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Same thing.

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The hurt comfort tag is a good amount.

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Um, here we go.

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I'm going to say it.

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The next tag is anal sex.

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So got to know we're getting our explicit ones in there.

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The next tag is autistic Shane Hollander.

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The next one is married Shane Hollander slash Ilja Roosenoff.

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Then there's angst.

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And then the final one, because again, people like to be very specific is bottom Shane
Hollander.

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So those are the 10 tags that get separated out.

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So you can see it's weird how fan fiction does things, but if you really want to make
sure.

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That sheen's the bottom and that thick, there's a take for it.

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If you're really worried about it staying that way.

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those are the content.

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Declan's reactions to these.

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What are you thinking right now, Declan?

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So eh I I'm getting an idea of why you want fanfiction because you can fulfill a very
specific fantasy that you have about characters in your head.

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and obviously the fun of writing it as well, you can do like self-inserts, you can like
you can make yourself part of that world.

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So you can in a way that you want the characters to play out and fulfill the fantasy that
you have.

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And that's really fun, actually.

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That's really creative.

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Um, but in terms of like the tags themselves, when you said Ilya loves Shane and then the
least popular one is the Shane loves Ilya, that makes sense to me.

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So it does like that makes sense to me because at the moment I'm rereading the long game,
and the more that I'm reading it and the more that I'm getting the character's

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perspectives and revisiting the story with a bit more knowledge.

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Yep.

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That's that checks out with me a hundred percent.

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Ilya is the romantic, a hundred and ten percent.

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Shane is the the swooner who's enjoying being doted upon, but Ilya's the romantic a
hundred percent.

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So the tags make sense to me, I think.

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Yes, let me just clarify it quick too.

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It's not a significant difference.

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There's 9,300 of Ilya first and there's 8,000 of Shane first.

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And oftentimes people don't even feel the need to put that tag because they're doing an
Ilya slash Shane fanfic.

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So it's implied, right?

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Out of 35,000 having the top two tags be that.

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Like most people don't have to put that because it's a slash fiction as is.

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But yeah, definitely the ones that say Ilya loves Shane, they are being more romantic
ones.

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And uh I don't think we talked about this last time, but it is believed that about 80 to
90 % of fanfic authors today are female presenting or female desiring.

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So that also maybe makes sense.

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That is anecdotal for me.

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I got it from one of the references that is in the previous, but that is what it's
believed.

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So maybe that makes sense.

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Why where?

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Why do you think that is?

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I have a theory.

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So

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venture no thoughts on it.

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I just am recounting.

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I think in general, women are more drawn to literacy and in particular the romance genre,
that's like statistical fact.

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Um, so it doesn't surprise me that they then go on to want to write fan fiction and to
delve more into the romance and the yearning and to create the sort of romantic scenario

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that they want to see.

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Um, but that also translates to authors as well, because a lot of MM romance authors start
off as fan fiction writers.

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And then they begin writing their own original content and then that turns into published
content then.

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And so this is why there's such a large volume of female writers who are doing MM romance
books, because they are coming from that background.

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They're coming from like the fan fiction background, the AO3 background, where they've
written these stories, they've been really good at it, and then they've turned it into

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like a published work.

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So it doesn't surprise me that that's

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That's like a thing now, that's that that's come of that.

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Well, the other side of it too, and this is something we weren't able to get into last
time, but I think it'll be great here is that, you know, it is uh wildly shown that the

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very first like fanfic in the modern sense was Spock slash Kirk fanfic that started it
off.

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uh It was written literally in fanzines and it was written and mailed to each other.

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And I just

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being honest, I don't see a lot of men taking the time to write that type of fic and
sending it to their pals to read it.

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uh Maybe I'm making some assumptions, uh so please call me on my bias if I'm wrong.

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But it really does seem to the realm of women wanting to share something with their
friends who start writing a thing and are like, want these two men to kiss and let's write

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some fic about it.

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but it also was very much encouraged and accepted by that property back then.

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There was even some of the, I don't want to say the actors, but people involved with the
Star Trek show that definitely played into it.

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And they would even guest write in some of these fanzines that got put out back then.

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Again, that is all in the references from last week on that series that uh Joanne Bearup
did.

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That just floored me, floored me.

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And I believe it is even like uh Peter Capaldi who played a doctor.

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He wrote fanfic about Doctor Who when he was younger.

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uh So this really was a much more accepted thing until really, as I mentioned last time,
know, Disney kind of stepped in and really started pushing people away from doing that

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because they wanted to protect their IPs.

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When fanfic authors, weren't trying to take over the IPs.

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They just wanted to have fun, but they were doing it for free.

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And when you're doing it for free.

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and not paying for it.

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They really fucking hate that, you know?

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So it's fascinating.

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And that makes sense as to what both of you were saying, because when you think about
these fan fictions and how they started and continued and grew, it almost feels like a

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community.

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And for me, when I've been around my female friends and

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female writers, that's where I got that sense of community.

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There was this shared experience there.

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Whereas and I haven't experienced this with as much with with male friends or male
writers.

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So if it is the case, please tell us.

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But it it kind of checks out that the women would have a sense of community and sharing
around them.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, my community is literally 98 % women based on the demographics people are willing
to share.

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So that's no surprise to me at all.

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um It's honestly, if it isn't gay or queer men involved, I wouldn't have been involved in
this stuff at all either.

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I think I've had only one man in all the years I've done it say that he was straight and
that he liked romance in my community.

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um And granted, my, you know, I've only added

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gay romance in about six years ago.

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So it would make sense to that.

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But even outside of that, have a couple and I've had a couple through the years with my
who like Outlander because that's not solely a romance focused.

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But yeah, I mean that tracks for my community at least anyway.

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So I don't I mean, and unless they're married straight men, I just haven't seen men really
involved in it at all anyway, which it's like crazy because I'm like dudes.

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You want to meet some women, like get into reading romance.

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I'm telling you, we've seen how easily some less than savory men are able to co-op the
romance community when they tap into romance.

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And it's kind of disgusting.

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So I wish we'd have some more decent ones be interested in it.

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Yeah, think that's pretty standard across the board when it comes to romance.

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think a lot of straight men in particular don't want to be seen to be reading it because
they're perceived to be gay, which is literally anything to do with a female interest or

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anything that or female dominated interest.

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They just don't want to look at it just at the risk of being misidentified or

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having their sexuality called on the question.

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It's a real, I suppose it's a bit of insecurity, but I can understand the fear that, you
know, the fear of reprisal or something coming back to them for enjoying something.

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But I think as gay men, we're able to set aside that and just enjoy something for what it
is because we're not feeling insecure of our sexuality anymore.

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We're, we've done the work we've put in.

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probably too much work than we ever had to.

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But just as a result of society, we had to figure it out and it all had to be a whole big
thing.

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But now the big thing's figured out and we feel confident in enjoying our interests,
regardless of whether or not they're perceived as masculine or feminine.

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So yeah, it's unfortunate because it's such an enjoyable genre and there's so much fun to
be had in it.

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And also really good role modeling for relationships if you're reading the right books and
for...

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ideas to be romantic for your partner as well.

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Like it's basically like a guide into what a woman wants out of a romantic relationship
and you're just like not there to receive it.

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Like that's stupid.

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I know.

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So can I ask then if there are straight men listening and they're like, you know what?

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I'm gonna try a romance, which ones would either of you say is a good starter point?

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It doesn't have to be MM.

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Yes, I have some thoughts on this, but first I want to piggyback off of what Declan said
because the thing I think that straight men miss about it is that they think that it's

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going to be filled with unrealistic expectations of men when the things that women swoon
over in romances are the most basic ass bitch stuff to do, like buy her flowers, rub her

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feet, cuddle her in bed.

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buy her a book, like, and then you can go to, you know what I mean?

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Like they think it's all about like what the sexual prowess in the book is, which of
course they would think that, cause there may be like, why does my woman like this?

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What am I doing wrong?

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But it's like the things we spoon over in books are the most normal ass stuff.

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It's not like we're asking you to have wings.

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Okay, that is not what I love about what happens in a fantasy romance, okay?

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So anyway, just wanted to make that comment too, is I think they're afraid that they'll
start feeling inferior.

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And I'm like, unless you're treating your woman like dirt, really, we're not asking you to
live up to much.

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So that's it, that's it.

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Thank

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really not that deep.

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But as for romances for men to start with, mean...

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that's so difficult because I think it's as it can be so basic like to start with what
you're interested in.

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That's how I tell to get anyone into reading.

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I'm like if the dude like sports try a sports romance.

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If you like um I don't know what to think of NASCAR or writing there's a romance with it.

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If you like history.

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I mean I love the romance and Outlander and those aren't even romance books and that's how
a lot of men I think have tried reading those ones and then being like wow there's like

207
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fighting and uh

208
00:16:37,986 --> 00:16:39,056
drinking and all this stuff.

209
00:16:39,056 --> 00:16:43,308
And I'm like, yeah, and then the romance is my favorite romance of all time, but it's not
a romance.

210
00:16:43,308 --> 00:16:55,103
So I don't think it always has to be like go to the romance section of Barnes and Noble to
get this, you uh I think there's plenty of mainstream fantasy books that have a good

211
00:16:55,103 --> 00:16:56,554
romance in them.

212
00:16:58,353 --> 00:17:03,958
think romantic is a good gateway for men to enjoy it.

213
00:17:03,958 --> 00:17:07,340
actually discussed this on a previous episode of this podcast as well.

214
00:17:07,340 --> 00:17:18,439
One point that what Akatar in particular did really well was to get all these girls and
their boyfriends to read this book because they wanted to know what the hype was.

215
00:17:18,439 --> 00:17:21,051
They wanted to know what they were reading, what the obsession was.

216
00:17:21,051 --> 00:17:22,933
And then you see these guys pick it up.

217
00:17:22,933 --> 00:17:28,177
You know, it's a little bit of a joke and we're running through and they're giving their
thoughts, but then they're like,

218
00:17:28,177 --> 00:17:32,497
hiring through the next books and they need to know what happens and they get so invested.

219
00:17:32,497 --> 00:17:38,445
I think that has done a lot to introduce men to the idea of romantic.

220
00:17:40,541 --> 00:17:41,378
Mm.

221
00:17:41,378 --> 00:17:43,800
Yeah, fourth wing too, that one's great.

222
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:53,268
this is my problem with romance to see a lot is that the percentage of actual smut in
those books is so low.

223
00:17:53,268 --> 00:17:58,402
So they're great ones to start with because they've been told this perception that, my
God, what's your woman reading?

224
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Like getting all this stuff and then they get into it and like, I haven't even gotten to
any sex yet.

225
00:18:01,626 --> 00:18:04,617
And I'm like, yeah, because romance is more than just sex.

226
00:18:04,617 --> 00:18:07,559
Don't know who has to bang that in your head.

227
00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:10,882
But yeah, they're fighting with dragons and you know.

228
00:18:10,882 --> 00:18:16,434
killing people and shit and then they also have telepathic sex when their dragons have
sex.

229
00:18:16,434 --> 00:18:17,945
Yeah, that gets a bit weird.

230
00:18:18,105 --> 00:18:19,746
We won't look at it too hard.

231
00:18:19,746 --> 00:18:21,126
you know, like

232
00:18:23,082 --> 00:18:34,759
Yeah, and I'm I'm wondering if there is a difference between sort of a male or a female
gaze in terms of whether they're interested in sort of the emotional intimacy or if

233
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they're more driven by plot, for example.

234
00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:39,823
Hmm

235
00:18:39,823 --> 00:18:41,306
I know, I couldn't speak to that.

236
00:18:41,306 --> 00:18:45,354
only have a female gaze, so love to know what you think, Declan, if you've read.

237
00:18:45,354 --> 00:18:47,980
Have you read Some Romanticie, or do you?

238
00:18:47,980 --> 00:18:50,023
um

239
00:18:50,213 --> 00:18:51,623
I will.

240
00:18:51,623 --> 00:18:58,306
I exclusively read romance books and I've read like the big ones as well.

241
00:18:58,306 --> 00:18:59,476
I've read Forth Wing.

242
00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:04,178
I've read all of Akatar um and some other ones as well.

243
00:19:04,178 --> 00:19:06,198
So I think.

244
00:19:07,099 --> 00:19:07,959
It's.

245
00:19:10,457 --> 00:19:15,031
In terms of plot, it's really down to the preference of the person.

246
00:19:15,031 --> 00:19:17,019
think like some people like plot heavy books.

247
00:19:17,019 --> 00:19:18,814
I like plot heavy books.

248
00:19:18,814 --> 00:19:22,457
I like plot to facilitate character growth.

249
00:19:22,457 --> 00:19:27,901
I like it to be intertwined with one another and I like it to flow sort of seamlessly.

250
00:19:27,901 --> 00:19:39,370
A lot of the books I read um are more sort of relationship driven where they will set
aside like 60 % of the book to focus just on building this relationship.

251
00:19:39,627 --> 00:19:47,739
and having these characters like spend time together and having cute little moments
together rather than like intertwining the growth of the relationship with the plot so

252
00:19:47,739 --> 00:19:55,231
that you have stuff happening alongside their growing sort of thing and they have events
that naturally occur that bring them closer together.

253
00:19:55,231 --> 00:20:02,253
um So I like a lot of plot in my books because I think it helps with building like
emotional stakes and stuff.

254
00:20:02,253 --> 00:20:04,893
m But not everyone does.

255
00:20:04,893 --> 00:20:07,894
Everyone, some people like the focus on

256
00:20:07,917 --> 00:20:17,183
the intimacy on the romance on the um sort of relationship aspects and growing of the sort
of romance between the two characters.

257
00:20:17,183 --> 00:20:23,387
um But I find it slow for pacing and things like that.

258
00:20:23,387 --> 00:20:27,950
And while some people might prefer that, I prefer song that's a bit more plot heavy.

259
00:20:27,950 --> 00:20:32,253
think it makes more sense when you're trying to tell a full story.

260
00:20:33,851 --> 00:20:35,681
I think, yeah, I think it all depends on...

261
00:20:35,681 --> 00:20:41,747
because for me, because I only read romance as well, people can say Outlander isn't.

262
00:20:41,747 --> 00:20:42,607
It is.

263
00:20:42,607 --> 00:20:43,287
It is.

264
00:20:43,287 --> 00:20:44,568
So I only read romance.

265
00:20:44,568 --> 00:20:47,890
uh But I'll read it of all types.

266
00:20:47,890 --> 00:20:57,674
And for me, where fantasy often bores me, romance often bores me, is if you don't give me
enough emotional buy-in before you...

267
00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:07,993
Well not before because yes you have to start setting up a world and get into it but if
you don't give me the seeds of what I'm gonna need when you go on a know an exposition

268
00:21:07,993 --> 00:21:19,546
gallivant I'm tuning out if I don't care about the character so there needs to be an
signing incident first for me even if it's not for both partners and what the couple what

269
00:21:19,546 --> 00:21:27,138
the couple's gonna be yet I need to be locked onto a character before I'm gonna go through
because then I'm like why do I care about the exposition?

270
00:21:27,138 --> 00:21:33,863
If I don't care about the character who's living in this scenario, then I don't care what
world you're trying to introduce me to.

271
00:21:33,863 --> 00:21:40,448
you know, just as an example, because I know you said you read Akitar, I immediately know
how this person feels.

272
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She's poor, trying to feed her family, going on this, you know, journey through the woods
to, you know, slay some food.

273
00:21:46,372 --> 00:21:49,686
I immediately care about her, even though...

274
00:21:49,686 --> 00:21:52,268
we still have a lot of her character to fill in later.

275
00:21:52,268 --> 00:21:59,035
Like starting with something that grips me on it, I care about her and I care about who
she ends up falling in love with, especially because that one's a first person point of

276
00:21:59,035 --> 00:21:59,956
view book too.

277
00:21:59,956 --> 00:22:04,739
So I care about who she's falling in love with um or him, right?

278
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:10,155
An example to, um you have to have, maybe I'm wrong, but you've read Talbauer, right?

279
00:22:10,155 --> 00:22:11,487
Dethlin, have you read some of him?

280
00:22:11,487 --> 00:22:13,477
yeah, yeah, I hope, yeah, yeah.

281
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:18,892
uh He does that in my favorite book, You and Me.

282
00:22:18,892 --> 00:22:27,517
I immediately care about the main POV character, his desperation to be close with his son
and he's willing to go through whatever hoops he has to to fix that relationship.

283
00:22:27,517 --> 00:22:33,700
I'm immediately emotionally locked in with him and that's a pretty simple story.

284
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:37,172
um But he immediately makes me love that man.

285
00:22:37,172 --> 00:22:38,283
I would die for him.

286
00:22:38,283 --> 00:22:43,425
And then we intrude to the love interest who's just the most perfect ball of sunshine
that's ever existed.

287
00:22:44,778 --> 00:22:45,598
I'm here for it.

288
00:22:45,598 --> 00:22:49,781
That is a mostly pretty low angst book in the romance.

289
00:22:49,781 --> 00:22:56,104
His relationship with his son, that is where the angst is at and where it's just going to
put you through a meat grinder.

290
00:22:56,104 --> 00:23:02,138
But that's a completely different thing of like then you're desperate for food and could
die and you need to feed your family.

291
00:23:02,138 --> 00:23:05,989
But they both still make me care about that character within the first chapter.

292
00:23:06,050 --> 00:23:06,820
I'm hooked.

293
00:23:06,820 --> 00:23:09,071
And that's what I think good authors do.

294
00:23:09,071 --> 00:23:11,023
And I also think that when it comes to Sarah J.

295
00:23:11,023 --> 00:23:13,820
Maas, the shit that she gets for them being

296
00:23:13,820 --> 00:23:14,690
not well read.

297
00:23:14,690 --> 00:23:17,992
I'm like, do you know how many people started reading because of this woman?

298
00:23:17,992 --> 00:23:29,677
You can take your criticism and keep it to yourself because it has never needed to be the
highest levels of literature that get people excited about romance or about uh romanticity

299
00:23:29,677 --> 00:23:31,378
or any of those things.

300
00:23:31,378 --> 00:23:33,919
And it's not because those books are bad.

301
00:23:33,959 --> 00:23:35,620
They're an easy entry point.

302
00:23:35,620 --> 00:23:39,022
And that does not make something low brow at all.

303
00:23:39,022 --> 00:23:40,209
So anyway.

304
00:23:40,209 --> 00:23:49,355
Yeah, yeah, like, I agree with you in that sense that the idea that these need to be like
literary masterpieces, like it's just not true.

305
00:23:49,355 --> 00:23:53,558
mean, I have my ranking system whenever I'm reviewing books.

306
00:23:54,159 --> 00:23:58,181
Basically, I'm looking for what the offer set out to do.

307
00:23:58,221 --> 00:24:00,363
What is the offer's like mission here?

308
00:24:00,363 --> 00:24:04,346
Like what kind of story they trying to tell and how well are they telling it?

309
00:24:04,346 --> 00:24:06,567
Like, am I invested?

310
00:24:06,649 --> 00:24:07,994
Am I enjoying it?

311
00:24:07,994 --> 00:24:09,205
Is the pacing good?

312
00:24:09,205 --> 00:24:10,624
Is the plot well thought out?

313
00:24:10,624 --> 00:24:11,396
Is it creative?

314
00:24:11,396 --> 00:24:13,427
Are the characters believable?

315
00:24:13,607 --> 00:24:14,968
Do they have story arcs?

316
00:24:14,968 --> 00:24:18,359
Like, are they different from the beginning as they are towards the end?

317
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:29,615
if you can achieve that within your book and within it to the point where I'm like, wow, I
really love this and it just works, it's well written, it just feels blowing and it's

318
00:24:29,615 --> 00:24:30,496
nice.

319
00:24:30,496 --> 00:24:31,536
Five stars.

320
00:24:31,536 --> 00:24:35,979
I'll give you five stars in the same way that I would give Romeo and Juliet five stars.

321
00:24:35,979 --> 00:24:37,436
Like they...

322
00:24:38,008 --> 00:24:45,710
Is one maybe objectively more literary, important and inspirational or whatever?

323
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:48,402
Yes, but we're not really discussing that.

324
00:24:48,402 --> 00:24:57,816
What I'm trying to do is give a review on the enjoyment of the book that I read and how I
felt that the author carried that vision out.

325
00:24:57,816 --> 00:25:01,947
And in that sense, I don't need a literary masterpiece.

326
00:25:01,947 --> 00:25:06,543
I just need the author to deliver exactly what they wanted to and in the best way that
they could.

327
00:25:06,543 --> 00:25:08,270
And that's where I do my rankings.

328
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:12,201
Yeah, yeah.

329
00:25:12,201 --> 00:25:17,456
I'm a heart, I'm right by the heart and how much I cry basically is for everything.

330
00:25:17,456 --> 00:25:21,289
Like if I gave it a book six stars on my ranking, it's because I cried.

331
00:25:21,289 --> 00:25:32,107
And uh yes, I cry easily, I cry often, uh but that's beautiful to me because you're making
me feel the emotion of the characters and that's that part of like what did the author set

332
00:25:32,107 --> 00:25:32,927
out to do.

333
00:25:32,927 --> 00:25:36,586
uh And yeah, it's...

334
00:25:36,586 --> 00:25:38,457
It's also to what makes a classic.

335
00:25:38,457 --> 00:25:43,802
Sure, there are people who study that, but a lot of it is just time too and what sticks
around and what people read.

336
00:25:43,802 --> 00:25:49,627
So if we could look 300 years into the future, which of our books now will still be
around?

337
00:25:49,627 --> 00:25:53,981
And we'll be thinking they're the ancient texts that classes are taught off of and
everything.

338
00:25:53,981 --> 00:25:55,883
um Will that be fourth wing?

339
00:25:55,883 --> 00:25:56,524
Who knows?

340
00:25:56,524 --> 00:25:57,464
Who knows?

341
00:25:57,464 --> 00:25:57,905
Okay.

342
00:25:57,905 --> 00:26:00,366
I'm not quite sure, but who knows?

343
00:26:02,769 --> 00:26:04,570
we never know what something will be.

344
00:26:04,651 --> 00:26:14,849
And I suppose what I'm hearing from both of you is that when you've got a protagonist that
you can sort of root for and get behind is where you get this buy-in, where you're

345
00:26:14,849 --> 00:26:16,941
invested in the story.

346
00:26:16,941 --> 00:26:23,066
And I've seen this since we spoke, Jen, in some of the fan fictions that have been
published on AO3.

347
00:26:23,066 --> 00:26:25,278
You know, they're written really well.

348
00:26:25,278 --> 00:26:30,372
And I know I said that last week, but I just want to reiterate: they're written really
well.

349
00:26:30,372 --> 00:26:32,271
And so I'm wondering if.

350
00:26:33,425 --> 00:26:45,111
With fan fiction specifically then, are there instances where you have an antihero where
you're not necessarily rooting for them, but they still pull you into the story enough

351
00:26:45,111 --> 00:26:48,433
that you want to read fifteen chapters of it?

352
00:26:52,118 --> 00:26:53,760
That's interesting.

353
00:26:53,760 --> 00:27:06,651
think the best example of that for me isn't going to be within Heated Rivalry because none
of the ones I've read are they trying to humanize anyone like that's not happening.

354
00:27:06,651 --> 00:27:18,291
It definitely is more within the HP area of like I've read Jermaini Pick and you're
supposed to hate that guy and he I love him the most, you know, so it's difficult to say

355
00:27:18,291 --> 00:27:19,762
that I think.

356
00:27:19,778 --> 00:27:22,778
that isn't something specific to fan fiction.

357
00:27:22,778 --> 00:27:33,238
I think it's more when you're able to do it with a character that's already existing as a
villain, maybe you already have like backstory to work with in the same way you would if

358
00:27:33,238 --> 00:27:36,658
you're doing it with the main characters, but writing more about them.

359
00:27:36,658 --> 00:27:38,998
And that can be the like shortcut.

360
00:27:38,998 --> 00:27:40,638
And I don't mean that in a bad way, right?

361
00:27:40,638 --> 00:27:47,178
When we talk of fanfic, a lot of the AUs or that stuff, the main work is the shortcut.

362
00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:53,593
That doesn't mean they might not change and, you know, now make Shane a doctor or make
Ilja a coach, or we might change up like that.

363
00:27:53,593 --> 00:27:57,035
But in general, they're keeping those character archetypes in place.

364
00:27:57,035 --> 00:28:08,960
So then if you have a character who is maybe originally a villain, but, you know, they
died early on or they just were not meant to be the focus because it's about someone else.

365
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,640
And then you can have a fanfic writer who's like, ooh.

366
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:18,354
I love this, I can take this set up character, but now I'm gonna make them the focus and
I'm gonna make them the love interest.

367
00:28:18,354 --> 00:28:21,526
What could have made them act like that in this story?

368
00:28:21,526 --> 00:28:24,618
Fanfic is always the what if question.

369
00:28:24,679 --> 00:28:26,190
So I hope that kind of gets to it.

370
00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:34,766
think that's where I see that happening is the fanfic is a great jumping off point of what
if.

371
00:28:34,766 --> 00:28:39,189
And a lot of us love to fall for a villain like we just do.

372
00:28:39,189 --> 00:28:40,170
Maybe not everyone.

373
00:28:40,170 --> 00:28:44,574
I don't know what you'll love Sylvan outside of he did reverie for that.

374
00:28:45,015 --> 00:28:56,568
But I love to fall for a villain and especially if they're not like, you know, a mass
murderer to start or something like we're talking villain who's a bit complex or is the,

375
00:28:56,568 --> 00:28:58,830
you know, I don't know where I'll go with that.

376
00:28:58,830 --> 00:29:02,113
But I think that's the seeds of it maybe.

377
00:29:03,456 --> 00:29:08,419
I mean, we were just talking about Akatara, Perfectly Sample, and that is Nesta.

378
00:29:08,419 --> 00:29:18,124
Nesta gets a whole book dedicated to herself and she's literally the most unbearable
character for like 90 % of the series.

379
00:29:18,124 --> 00:29:24,086
But the book humanizes her in a way that is completely unexpected.

380
00:29:24,227 --> 00:29:27,538
And she goes from this, she's more or less a villain.

381
00:29:27,538 --> 00:29:32,561
She's not a hero, she's just an uh ant.

382
00:29:32,561 --> 00:29:33,902
let's be clear.

383
00:29:34,375 --> 00:29:37,335
that's basically the idea.

384
00:29:37,495 --> 00:29:40,055
But the book humanizes her.

385
00:29:40,055 --> 00:29:41,035
It gives her a backstory.

386
00:29:41,035 --> 00:29:51,355
It gives her motivation for doing what she's actually doing and why she is the way she is
and rationalizes her thoughts and the way that she behaves so that you can empathize with

387
00:29:51,355 --> 00:29:55,575
her and you do truly wish her to be a happy character towards the end.

388
00:29:56,495 --> 00:30:00,595
And so I suppose that would be a good example in terms of M.M.

389
00:30:00,595 --> 00:30:01,615
Romance.

390
00:30:02,153 --> 00:30:07,905
I don't know if you've ever read the series Sons of the Fallen by Jacqueline Osborne.

391
00:30:08,685 --> 00:30:10,586
It's like this.

392
00:30:11,446 --> 00:30:25,902
Romantic, contemporary fantasy that follows uh Nephilim, which are like half human, half
angels, so the children of humans and angels um and each of them represent a seven deadly

393
00:30:25,902 --> 00:30:26,452
son.

394
00:30:26,452 --> 00:30:32,174
So like lust or greed or wrath and one of

395
00:30:32,199 --> 00:30:36,060
the Nephilim, the lusts, so they each get a book.

396
00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:39,011
There's been this reoccurring demon who keeps showing up.

397
00:30:39,011 --> 00:30:42,081
He's the one that keeps causing trouble for everybody.

398
00:30:42,081 --> 00:30:50,343
uh But in that book, you know, this is going to be a spoiler if someone wants to read it,
know, skip this part.

399
00:30:50,403 --> 00:30:55,885
But in Bellamy's book, he finds out that he is his destiny mate.

400
00:30:55,885 --> 00:31:01,490
This evil guy, the guy that has been messing with him from the very start, he is who he's

401
00:31:01,490 --> 00:31:17,233
destined to be with and so it takes this really villainous character and basically makes
him into an actual antihero in which he begins to justify how he could possibly be with

402
00:31:17,233 --> 00:31:24,048
this guy and the way that the offer approached it I thought was really clever it's that
he's not suddenly good it's just that he cares more about this person than he does being

403
00:31:24,048 --> 00:31:30,813
bad and that was such a fun journey and a fun take on an antihero but as the

404
00:31:30,813 --> 00:31:40,253
books then progress after that point, he'd all slowly become more good, essentially, just
by the influence of the people that he now surrounds himself with.

405
00:31:40,253 --> 00:31:45,993
And through the love of this guy, he suddenly becomes a lot more sympathetic.

406
00:31:45,993 --> 00:31:49,373
And I think it's just such a clever character journey.

407
00:31:49,433 --> 00:31:57,812
So in terms of you know, fan fiction and things like that and how that applies, being able
to take

408
00:31:57,850 --> 00:32:06,719
what is a desperately bad character and turn them into something that is much more
digestible as a reader and something that you can root for and you're an actor and be

409
00:32:06,719 --> 00:32:08,821
like, my God, he's just misunderstood.

410
00:32:08,821 --> 00:32:10,833
You're just not reading between the lines here.

411
00:32:10,833 --> 00:32:15,077
I'll write it for you so that you can read between the lines exactly as I write it.

412
00:32:15,157 --> 00:32:16,679
And you get to see it that way.

413
00:32:16,679 --> 00:32:22,464
So yeah, yeah, it's a fun type of archetype to do fan fiction on, can imagine.

414
00:32:25,651 --> 00:32:30,152
And this wet lends so well to Ilya because Ilya's the bad boy.

415
00:32:30,152 --> 00:32:36,765
He's, you know, he's the one that you don't root for because he's the one that's the
antagonist, especially in the books.

416
00:32:36,765 --> 00:32:37,885
He riles people up.

417
00:32:37,885 --> 00:32:48,329
Um, but when you watch the TV show, you see him soften and you see him through his love of
shame really sort of bring out this different side to him that you don't get in the first

418
00:32:48,329 --> 00:32:50,135
couple of episodes, for example.

419
00:32:54,136 --> 00:32:55,799
Those are some heavy words you just said.

420
00:32:55,799 --> 00:32:57,663
I'm trying to digest them all.

421
00:32:58,908 --> 00:33:01,975
Calling you the villain of this.

422
00:33:01,975 --> 00:33:03,578
What are you doing?

423
00:33:03,748 --> 00:33:05,880
I'm gonna get hated.

424
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:12,585
But you know, between like the sunshine and the moon, Ilya is the moon and Shane is the
sunshine, right?

425
00:33:13,991 --> 00:33:16,522
I mean, maybe.

426
00:33:16,522 --> 00:33:20,878
I think Shane is the grump and Ilya is the sunshine, so maybe.

427
00:33:22,361 --> 00:33:24,752
Ooh, I like your take on that.

428
00:33:25,656 --> 00:33:26,530
Hmm.

429
00:33:26,530 --> 00:33:27,850
don't know, maybe that's a hot take.

430
00:33:27,850 --> 00:33:29,250
Maybe that's a hot take.

431
00:33:30,190 --> 00:33:34,390
like Shane is more like ordered, like can't have anything step out.

432
00:33:34,390 --> 00:33:38,270
He's definitely like softer on the, some things.

433
00:33:38,270 --> 00:33:41,930
But to me, Elia is like the sunshine and Shane's kind of the grump.

434
00:33:41,930 --> 00:33:46,693
And then my opinion, in my opinion, I think that's a hot take, but I love this.

435
00:33:46,693 --> 00:33:53,051
I would love to know what the listeners are thinking right now, like who for you is the
moon and who is the sun?

436
00:33:53,794 --> 00:33:57,055
Hmm, it's interesting.

437
00:33:57,055 --> 00:34:06,947
think they're more like Yen and Yang where one presents a certain way, but it's darker on
the inside and then the other presents in our way and they are lighter on the inside.

438
00:34:07,024 --> 00:34:12,128
I think Ilya is the idea of like dark on the outside, but a lot lighter on the inside.

439
00:34:12,128 --> 00:34:13,389
And Shane is the opposite.

440
00:34:13,389 --> 00:34:18,410
He is sort of lighter presenting, softer presenting, but a bit darker on the inside.

441
00:34:18,410 --> 00:34:23,091
But we're speaking from the knowledge of having read the entire series.

442
00:34:23,095 --> 00:34:26,535
So that lends greater context to the characters.

443
00:34:27,555 --> 00:34:35,635
yeah, the way no, but in Heat at Rivalry, I do think that that is the way that Rachel Reed
writes it.

444
00:34:35,635 --> 00:34:43,775
Ilya creates a lot of the obstacles for these two actually being more romantically
involved up to a certain point in the book.

445
00:34:43,775 --> 00:34:52,395
And then it shifts then and it becomes like Shane's responsibility then, like he's the one
that's interfering with them possibly being together.

446
00:34:53,047 --> 00:34:58,174
um But yeah, I think they interchange roles, I think.

447
00:34:58,174 --> 00:35:04,903
So they do, they take turns being the antagonist and he'd arrive early anyway, definitely.

448
00:35:06,108 --> 00:35:08,982
Let's say obstacle, the conflict.

449
00:35:08,982 --> 00:35:12,258
Let's stop saying antagonist and villain for our boys, okay?

450
00:35:12,258 --> 00:35:14,491
That's just feeling wrong in my skin.

451
00:35:14,491 --> 00:35:17,876
But being the obstacle to the HEA, how about that?

452
00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:19,649
Can we agree on that term?

453
00:35:21,447 --> 00:35:22,979
I'm happy with that.

454
00:35:23,298 --> 00:35:35,127
The conflict of the story is more on, uh yeah, Ilya in the first one, his inability to
open up about things and then once he gets cracked open, he's just like spilling love out

455
00:35:35,127 --> 00:35:38,790
of him and he can't hold it back inside and it's beautiful.

456
00:35:39,998 --> 00:35:42,173
and Shane feels like he has something to protect now.

457
00:35:42,173 --> 00:35:44,394
So then he's like holding on

458
00:35:45,671 --> 00:35:46,362
Yeah.

459
00:35:46,362 --> 00:35:49,856
Yeah, you can just tell Declan could be like everyone's favourite English teacher.

460
00:35:49,856 --> 00:35:52,228
Right?

461
00:35:52,228 --> 00:35:55,461
to keep track of what I'm talking about, listening to him go on.

462
00:35:55,461 --> 00:35:56,091
I love it.

463
00:35:56,091 --> 00:35:56,661
know.

464
00:35:56,661 --> 00:36:04,724
And one of the things that struck me from our conversation last week, Jen, was you talked
about Miracle, the fanfiction.

465
00:36:04,724 --> 00:36:13,287
And you talked about this devastating plane crash, which I l very much linked to my Grey's
Anatomy PHD.

466
00:36:13,287 --> 00:36:20,069
And one of the things that I've been itching to ask you about since, uh about fanfiction
specifically, is sort of

467
00:36:20,753 --> 00:36:23,167
Why are we attracted to these types of stories?

468
00:36:23,167 --> 00:36:27,803
Why are we attracted to the catastrophe and the suffering and the angst?

469
00:36:28,184 --> 00:36:29,796
Does it make it more meaningful?

470
00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:32,711
Are we looking for that catharsis to happen?

471
00:36:32,711 --> 00:36:37,497
You know, is that more satisfying as a reader in fanfiction specifically?

472
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,470
Yeah.

473
00:36:40,331 --> 00:36:52,878
I really had to think about this when you shared, you know, that this was something we
wanted to revisit because I truly love very happy stories.

474
00:36:52,878 --> 00:36:58,521
And I know people might not believe that when I start sharing some of these wrecks I have,
because they all seem so angsty.

475
00:36:58,521 --> 00:37:04,224
And that's in general, it takes a lot to make me want to read a more angstier story.

476
00:37:04,224 --> 00:37:08,766
However, it all comes back to the fact for me is that

477
00:37:08,850 --> 00:37:14,095
I only read romance, only, in anything, in the fanfic world and in everything else.

478
00:37:14,095 --> 00:37:24,974
So if I'm reading a story where the premise is what Miracles premise is, but the author
says, don't worry, there's an AGA, I'm like, well, what are you gonna do to them?

479
00:37:24,974 --> 00:37:26,466
Like, what are you gonna do here?

480
00:37:26,466 --> 00:37:31,851
But yet I know that my boys, they're still safe in their story on my shelf.

481
00:37:31,851 --> 00:37:35,796
So whatever they're about to go through in this story, whatever pain that's gonna happen
to them,

482
00:37:35,796 --> 00:37:36,886
It's not real.

483
00:37:36,886 --> 00:37:37,667
None of it's real.

484
00:37:37,667 --> 00:37:39,588
Of course, I know I'm not in the psychosis.

485
00:37:39,588 --> 00:37:40,528
I know it's all not real.

486
00:37:40,528 --> 00:37:45,450
But in regards to what the canon story is, nothing's happening to them.

487
00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:46,571
They're fine.

488
00:37:46,571 --> 00:37:47,941
So what are we going to do in here?

489
00:37:47,941 --> 00:37:48,141
Right.

490
00:37:48,141 --> 00:37:58,426
And I think um one of the terms I ended up writing down for this is that it strengthens
the bonds of the characters to me, seeing them go through different scenarios and

491
00:37:58,426 --> 00:38:04,352
different situations and all the ones I love really heavily involve like

492
00:38:04,352 --> 00:38:11,748
their connection only deepening through any tragic events, but they're not tragic events
that in canon I want them to actually go through.

493
00:38:11,748 --> 00:38:14,180
I'm like, the boys got enough going on.

494
00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:19,615
We don't need actual pain and suffering and assault and harm to happen to them.

495
00:38:19,615 --> 00:38:27,822
But in a AU and in a different thing, I can see these characters become even more like
connected to one another.

496
00:38:27,822 --> 00:38:31,165
I can see them, you know, become parents.

497
00:38:31,165 --> 00:38:32,362
I could see them.

498
00:38:32,362 --> 00:38:38,465
you know, be set in a totally different world, but then the story that I love is still
safe on the shelf.

499
00:38:38,666 --> 00:38:40,466
Nothing bad happened to them.

500
00:38:40,707 --> 00:38:46,630
So that's just my perspective on it is like when I hear something has an H.E.A.

501
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:51,153
but also has a premise like that, I'm like, well, how is that author going to do it?

502
00:38:51,153 --> 00:38:54,244
What are they going to do and still have an H.E.A.

503
00:38:54,244 --> 00:38:55,655
at the end somehow?

504
00:38:55,655 --> 00:39:01,578
And a lot of people might not feel that way about Miracle because Ilya is the only one who
makes it out alive of that.

505
00:39:02,262 --> 00:39:05,144
Situation him and Shane are both alive that situation.

506
00:39:05,144 --> 00:39:15,520
He's only makes it out uh but it was because it was his journey to go through it and how
close him and Shane become in this fic and how much the Hollanders look after him and the

507
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:27,307
parents of all the players are there for him and they just absolutely obliterate uh the
Commissioner and all the Evil machinations of that stuff and that's just one example of

508
00:39:27,307 --> 00:39:27,397
it.

509
00:39:27,397 --> 00:39:29,338
You know, I've read 60 of them at this point.

510
00:39:29,338 --> 00:39:30,178
So

511
00:39:30,650 --> 00:39:33,773
It's hard because some people just hear me talking and they're like, that's ridiculous.

512
00:39:33,773 --> 00:39:34,393
I don't want it.

513
00:39:34,393 --> 00:39:35,824
And I'm like, great, you don't want it.

514
00:39:35,824 --> 00:39:36,815
It's fine.

515
00:39:37,256 --> 00:39:41,579
But to me, just, makes me appreciate the original even more.

516
00:39:41,579 --> 00:39:46,863
And it also lets me go on this journey with characters I already love and I'm already ride
or die for them.

517
00:39:46,863 --> 00:39:54,630
And so I'm like, well, what are they going to go through today in this new version of it
uh and still be safe on my shelf in their other story.

518
00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:55,390
So.

519
00:39:57,382 --> 00:39:59,043
Yeah, it's interesting.

520
00:39:59,043 --> 00:40:06,789
I personally, I wouldn't want to read that specific event happening.

521
00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:15,877
Though I do understand the idea of wanting to put the characters through something to help
them grow and become closer, because essentially that's what books do anyway.

522
00:40:15,877 --> 00:40:22,483
If you're reading any sort of romance book, it's pretty boring if you don't have conflict
and you don't have the characters having to go through something.

523
00:40:22,483 --> 00:40:26,544
um Obviously, that fanfic in particular

524
00:40:26,544 --> 00:40:43,724
takes it to an extreme where like it explores, it's almost like it explores Shane's actual
thoughts in that book as, don't want to spoil too much for you, but basically it's almost

525
00:40:43,724 --> 00:40:49,864
like you, the idea of that fan pick is like, this is what Shane is upsetting about the
idea of what could have happened.

526
00:40:49,864 --> 00:40:53,764
And this is what this, this is what it looks like to him in his head.

527
00:40:53,775 --> 00:40:56,695
Like, I like that idea that you're exploring a spa process.

528
00:40:56,695 --> 00:40:57,255
What would happen?

529
00:40:57,255 --> 00:40:58,075
What would it look like?

530
00:40:58,075 --> 00:41:00,315
I would have been some full, oh my God, this is crazy.

531
00:41:00,315 --> 00:41:08,295
Because he is such an anxious person that I could imagine him fully carrying out this fan
fiction in his head, just not having written it down.

532
00:41:09,155 --> 00:41:11,475
So yeah, it's an interesting idea.

533
00:41:12,835 --> 00:41:21,155
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of where, like, I could imagine writing fan fiction because I do
it in my head all the time.

534
00:41:21,155 --> 00:41:22,935
Like, I can imagine

535
00:41:23,149 --> 00:41:33,103
creating characters and new scenarios from TV shows and different media that I love and
inserting different details and different changes and what would happen if this fellow

536
00:41:33,103 --> 00:41:41,777
showed up in this arc or if they had to battle this person when they were only developing
their players at this stage and just little imaginary scenarios just to keep yourself

537
00:41:41,777 --> 00:41:48,540
entertained because god forbid you stop and think about, I don't know, your place in the
universe or something.

538
00:41:48,620 --> 00:41:50,760
But that's essentially what I do.

539
00:41:50,760 --> 00:42:01,320
So I can imagine that it's just putting that to page and people in a character like Shane,
who's quite an over thinker, I can just imagine doing something like that and to create

540
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,680
this scenario in his head that this is what might've happened had something happened to
Ilya.

541
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,720
So I like that.

542
00:42:07,780 --> 00:42:09,480
I think it's creative.

543
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:10,680
Would I want to read it?

544
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:11,980
No, I don't want them hurt.

545
00:42:11,980 --> 00:42:13,480
I don't want them sad.

546
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:15,900
I feel like they go pretty enough.

547
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:17,142
I think it's fine.

548
00:42:17,142 --> 00:42:23,596
But if that's an idea that you want to explore, then it's quite a creative idea and it's a
good way of flexing your creative muscles as well.

549
00:42:23,596 --> 00:42:29,510
And if you're into lots of angst and you're into that sort of darkness, then yeah, know,
try it out.

550
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:30,891
I mean, that's what reading's for.

551
00:42:30,891 --> 00:42:36,906
Like there are so many different genres and there's so many different themes that you can
go into in lots of different books.

552
00:42:36,906 --> 00:42:39,617
And yet they're all still very popular and people love to read them.

553
00:42:39,617 --> 00:42:41,869
So clearly it's something that people want to read.

554
00:42:41,869 --> 00:42:46,430
um Like even books, some books that I read,

555
00:42:46,430 --> 00:42:49,332
don't have happy ever afters immediately.

556
00:42:50,453 --> 00:42:58,650
I'm talking about like duologies so like you read one book and that book does not have a
happy ever after but it's okay because the next book is going to re-explore those

557
00:42:58,650 --> 00:43:05,335
characters and they will eventually get their happy ever after but a plane no happy ever
after I can't.

558
00:43:07,296 --> 00:43:08,947
Yeah, yeah.

559
00:43:08,947 --> 00:43:11,447
Well, happily ever after for them.

560
00:43:11,447 --> 00:43:13,508
Not for everyone else, though.

561
00:43:14,808 --> 00:43:16,188
Which means that's...

562
00:43:16,249 --> 00:43:20,730
I also, I said this to myself, I have only read Heated Rivalry and The Long Game.

563
00:43:20,730 --> 00:43:24,851
So I'd probably feel different if I've read all the others and then I tried to read
Miracle.

564
00:43:24,851 --> 00:43:27,512
I would not have survived it if I cared any...

565
00:43:27,512 --> 00:43:31,463
I already care about that specific team a lot just from The Long Game.

566
00:43:31,463 --> 00:43:34,434
But if I'd read their books, yeah, that would be awful.

567
00:43:34,434 --> 00:43:34,794
But...

568
00:43:34,794 --> 00:43:35,674
uh

569
00:43:35,842 --> 00:43:43,122
Something I want to point out too is there's a meme out there that exists for like fanfic
readers where it's like I got into this just to read some extra smut and now I'm reading

570
00:43:43,122 --> 00:43:54,462
these 500 page depressing pics and that's kind of how it was like because that's an
attitude I had about fanfic before I read you know the Manicled that changed my mind on it

571
00:43:54,462 --> 00:43:58,462
where I was like what is happening to my brain like enjoying this story?

572
00:43:58,462 --> 00:44:01,542
And now I just feel that way about anytime I pick up a fic.

573
00:44:01,542 --> 00:44:03,648
I'm like, what are you gonna do in this one?

574
00:44:03,648 --> 00:44:14,266
But it is true, like a lot of our perspective of fanfic is like, it's just slashy, smutty
stuff, which I should know better because that's the opinion people have of my romance

575
00:44:14,266 --> 00:44:16,077
that I love as well anyway.

576
00:44:16,077 --> 00:44:23,302
And that's what I was thinking of fanfic, but there's so much that isn't even like
relationship focused too.

577
00:44:23,302 --> 00:44:29,337
Like there's literally ones, you one of the ones I am going to recommend in here, the best
part of it is the Hollander's relationship with Ilya in it.

578
00:44:29,337 --> 00:44:31,550
Like that's the whole point of the thing or.

579
00:44:31,550 --> 00:44:33,311
It's a fic of like team bonding.

580
00:44:33,311 --> 00:44:34,302
Like people just want more.

581
00:44:34,302 --> 00:44:36,154
It's almost like they just want to write bonus scenes, right?

582
00:44:36,154 --> 00:44:40,817
That's what a lot of one shots are of like, these two characters, we don't get to see them
talk enough.

583
00:44:40,817 --> 00:44:48,223
Let's do a fic where they go on a road trip together or like because they want to explore
those dynamics that Rachel couldn't put in a book anyway, because it wouldn't even make

584
00:44:48,223 --> 00:44:48,743
any sense.

585
00:44:48,743 --> 00:44:52,967
But I really love this character and this character and they don't get to hang out.

586
00:44:52,967 --> 00:44:57,410
one of my, I didn't, I should have grabbed Rex for this, but like wag Ilia, like.

587
00:44:57,410 --> 00:45:04,590
Ilja retiring and being a wag of Shane and just he would be the most extra wag there is
like he absolutely would be.

588
00:45:04,590 --> 00:45:07,230
Sorry, I don't like to say like bag for them.

589
00:45:07,230 --> 00:45:10,465
Wags and bags.

590
00:45:10,465 --> 00:45:20,564
and and in a way it sort of reminds me of when Declan and I sort of reviewed the bonus
chapter for Heated Rivalry on Rachel Reed's website and we had lots of thoughts about why

591
00:45:20,564 --> 00:45:25,619
and why now and what that added to the narrative and to the story.

592
00:45:25,619 --> 00:45:29,782
But one of the things that you mentioned earlier, Jen, was canon.

593
00:45:29,782 --> 00:45:38,289
Now I've been introduced to some of these words like canon and fanon, and so I'm wondering
if you can explain that to both of us.

594
00:45:39,156 --> 00:45:39,747
Right.

595
00:45:39,747 --> 00:45:43,179
Well, Canon is what's on the page and what the author has said.

596
00:45:43,179 --> 00:45:50,764
Um, and so yeah, any of the canonical is the word we used to say of that of like whatever
she's written on the page.

597
00:45:50,764 --> 00:45:58,989
And even some people could say some of the stuff she's also said, but in general, I
believe it's only what you've written down is your Canon, what you've published, what

598
00:45:58,989 --> 00:45:59,959
you've said.

599
00:45:59,959 --> 00:46:01,292
Although of course I'm

600
00:46:01,292 --> 00:46:05,174
I'm not one of the people who's like Rachel can't make any comments after the end of it.

601
00:46:05,174 --> 00:46:06,854
No, I love everything she has to say about it.

602
00:46:06,854 --> 00:46:10,036
And I believe her intent about whatever she meant to happen.

603
00:46:10,036 --> 00:46:13,037
I'm one of those people that I do believe that.

604
00:46:13,037 --> 00:46:21,000
um But in general, canon is just what's on the page or what's on the screen, how it's been
originally presented.

605
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,972
You can't like ad hoc to it later and then be like, well, it actually meant this.

606
00:46:24,972 --> 00:46:29,764
And I'm like, well, if you didn't put that in where we could get it from your story, then
it's not canon.

607
00:46:29,764 --> 00:46:31,030
oh

608
00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:32,200
then it's not there.

609
00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:42,393
The term fanon then comes from, you know, basically anything written in a fan fiction, uh
your version of it.

610
00:46:42,393 --> 00:46:49,985
So this is why it's difficult to explain because there's fanon as in each individual
fanfic itself has its own fanon.

611
00:46:49,985 --> 00:46:55,617
That's what it is, is them taking the traits they loved from canon and then adding their
spin on it.

612
00:46:55,617 --> 00:46:59,968
So in general, fanon is each individual fan fiction.

613
00:46:59,968 --> 00:47:13,054
as well as are there certain things that like most of the fanfics continue to put in them
or traits or situations that they, you know, have decided must be a thing or something

614
00:47:13,054 --> 00:47:13,534
like that.

615
00:47:13,534 --> 00:47:25,940
um But that's just so hard because especially with a fandom kind of as new as this one, I
don't think there are as many agreed upon fan um scenarios for them yet.

616
00:47:25,940 --> 00:47:27,064
So I don't have like...

617
00:47:27,064 --> 00:47:28,345
perfect answer for that part of it.

618
00:47:28,345 --> 00:47:31,829
Like what is the heated rivalry fanon that we have?

619
00:47:31,829 --> 00:47:38,466
But in general, it's each individual fanfic is a fanon because it's taking cannon and
adding your spin to it.

620
00:47:38,466 --> 00:47:42,100
So that's kind of what those terms break down to.

621
00:47:43,116 --> 00:47:46,611
Can I ask you how you would define Ed Cannon?

622
00:47:49,238 --> 00:47:52,949
Yes, I mean, to me that is fanning as well.

623
00:47:52,949 --> 00:47:54,680
So headcanon.

624
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,821
Okay, what's an example?

625
00:47:56,821 --> 00:48:03,033
Because for me, I just know there are things where I read it where I'm like, the author
didn't say this, but I fully believe that.

626
00:48:03,033 --> 00:48:07,075
But without having written it down into a fanfic, like that's how I would describe it.

627
00:48:07,075 --> 00:48:08,735
But now I'm trying to think of an example.

628
00:48:08,735 --> 00:48:10,556
And of course, I can't think of any.

629
00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:23,458
It's like, I would imagine it's like reasonable assumptions about the canon, like
reasonable assumptions that aren't explicitly stated, but you can assume that this would

630
00:48:23,458 --> 00:48:28,431
actually be a thing within the bounds of the story and within the bounds of the works.

631
00:48:28,452 --> 00:48:40,559
So like a really sad one I always see like is to do with the Harry Potter books where, um
you know, one of the head canons that people say exists is that uh

632
00:48:41,013 --> 00:48:54,009
When George dies in the last book, one of the twins, Fred is no longer able to produce
Patronus because he associates all his happy memories with his twin and whatever he thinks

633
00:48:54,009 --> 00:48:56,857
about his twin in the East Adam so he can't produce Patronus.

634
00:48:56,857 --> 00:49:03,623
That is not written in the book anywhere and yet I 100 % believe that that could be true.

635
00:49:04,854 --> 00:49:05,845
Yes, yes.

636
00:49:05,845 --> 00:49:11,398
ah I've almost blocked out that he died because of most of the fanfics I read, he's still
alive.

637
00:49:11,398 --> 00:49:13,809
So I've just blocked that out.

638
00:49:13,809 --> 00:49:16,971
And thank you for reminding me that pain right now.

639
00:49:16,971 --> 00:49:31,059
uh No, an example that I just thought of then when you before you took us to a very sad
place right now is is one of the, um know, well, shoot, I can't say this.

640
00:49:31,059 --> 00:49:33,040
uh

641
00:49:34,102 --> 00:49:42,515
because it has to do with heated rivalry and there's a time jump, let's just say, and some
headcanon of what happens in this time jump that, let's just say, Jacob Tierney may now be

642
00:49:42,515 --> 00:49:51,308
making canon when he will film because he said there'll be things he's gonna add in that
have to be shown that previously have been my headcanon.

643
00:49:51,308 --> 00:49:54,849
So we'll see if they become canon now because we'll see that.

644
00:49:54,849 --> 00:49:59,090
So that's me being the most awkward vague that you've ever seen.

645
00:49:59,212 --> 00:50:02,734
But there's a time drop between needed rivalry and the long game, let's just say that.

646
00:50:02,734 --> 00:50:12,761
And there's some things in my head that I think have happened em that aren't in the books
because we just, when they don't exist on the page, it's not there.

647
00:50:12,761 --> 00:50:14,112
But they're my headcanon.

648
00:50:14,112 --> 00:50:16,612
So I hope Jacob makes them real.

649
00:50:16,612 --> 00:50:18,412
I want them to be real.

650
00:50:20,047 --> 00:50:23,120
Yeah, and thank you for not spoiling it, by the way.

651
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:24,972
I appreciate it so much.

652
00:50:24,972 --> 00:50:30,247
Um you know how how Declan feels like every week when we record.

653
00:50:32,060 --> 00:50:43,010
But one of the things that you when you were talking, I was thinking about is is have
there been fanfics that have sort of you know, fanons that have changed the way you think

654
00:50:43,010 --> 00:50:43,981
of the can?

655
00:50:46,028 --> 00:50:49,311
Yeah, so for me, no.

656
00:50:49,311 --> 00:50:53,171
And this is kind of what I was saying is like, I...

657
00:50:53,171 --> 00:51:01,880
This goes back to the part two, to the part where I was saying in the last podcast that I
don't normally read fanfics of things that are unfinished.

658
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:06,103
And when I started reading the Holonov fanfics, I did not know it was unfinished.

659
00:51:06,103 --> 00:51:08,145
She had not said there would be another book.

660
00:51:08,145 --> 00:51:10,807
I thought where the long game ended is where it ended.

661
00:51:10,807 --> 00:51:12,406
And so I was like, well...

662
00:51:12,406 --> 00:51:13,456
that's not enough for me.

663
00:51:13,456 --> 00:51:14,897
I would like some more please.

664
00:51:14,897 --> 00:51:16,718
And I started reading what I've read.

665
00:51:16,718 --> 00:51:25,341
uh And so I am one of the people that I just don't have my heart set on really any things
yet within it.

666
00:51:25,341 --> 00:51:32,805
I don't know if anyone listening, if there's some headcanons that you've made true for it
yet or fanning that you've decided on yet.

667
00:51:32,805 --> 00:51:37,637
And for me, I'm still very able to keep them separate at this point.

668
00:51:37,637 --> 00:51:39,427
I think it's probably because it's so fresh to me.

669
00:51:39,427 --> 00:51:41,468
Whereas when I got into

670
00:51:41,872 --> 00:51:42,572
HP fic.

671
00:51:42,572 --> 00:51:44,574
I hadn't read the books in 10 years.

672
00:51:44,574 --> 00:51:48,236
And so whatever I started scooping up with that, I was like, this is the way it can be
now.

673
00:51:48,236 --> 00:51:51,138
I don't have to go by anything I've read before.

674
00:51:51,138 --> 00:51:55,200
I'm still very aware of what is Rachel's story.

675
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,882
And I'm excited to see where she takes it with Unrivaled.

676
00:51:57,882 --> 00:52:02,854
So I haven't set, I don't have any areas where I'm like, well, you didn't give me what I
wanted with this.

677
00:52:02,854 --> 00:52:03,875
Well, she hasn't done yet.

678
00:52:03,875 --> 00:52:04,395
I don't know.

679
00:52:04,395 --> 00:52:09,268
And there's some things I'm still waiting on that like I think she will do.

680
00:52:09,364 --> 00:52:13,625
So I haven't had to really take it into my own hands yet for me.

681
00:52:14,766 --> 00:52:25,759
yeah, there's really, there are a few that I have in my heart specifically about if they
were to have children, what the names of those children will be and what the genders of

682
00:52:25,759 --> 00:52:26,679
those children will be.

683
00:52:26,679 --> 00:52:30,470
I have those set in my heart and I maybe she'll give them to us and maybe she won't.

684
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:31,830
I haven't made my mind up yet.

685
00:52:31,830 --> 00:52:32,831
That's kind of about it.

686
00:52:32,831 --> 00:52:37,012
Otherwise I'm just like, I'll read whatever anyone puts in front of me.

687
00:52:37,012 --> 00:52:38,146
And I keep.

688
00:52:38,146 --> 00:52:41,098
heated rivalry on the long game separate.

689
00:52:41,419 --> 00:52:44,081
Also, like I said, I read the long game three times in a row.

690
00:52:44,081 --> 00:52:46,903
That is burned in my soul what's in that book.

691
00:52:46,903 --> 00:52:49,275
I'm not trying to replace any.

692
00:52:49,275 --> 00:52:50,526
There's nothing I want to replace.

693
00:52:50,526 --> 00:52:51,387
I love it.

694
00:52:51,387 --> 00:52:52,308
I love it.

695
00:52:52,308 --> 00:52:58,063
There's nothing I need to replace, whereas I think in some fix of some stories, I am
looking to replace something.

696
00:52:58,063 --> 00:53:01,135
Whereas with Hollanoff, I just wanted more, is why I'm reading it.

697
00:53:01,135 --> 00:53:02,356
I'm not trying to fix it.

698
00:53:02,356 --> 00:53:04,117
I'm not trying to change it.

699
00:53:04,158 --> 00:53:06,978
And with the other stories I've read,

700
00:53:06,978 --> 00:53:08,468
there's something missing for me.

701
00:53:08,468 --> 00:53:11,764
I wanna fix it, so I'm reading fix that do it.

702
00:53:11,764 --> 00:53:13,187
Does that make sense?

703
00:53:28,705 --> 00:53:16,102
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.

704
00:53:16,102 --> 00:53:27,616
And and in a way I'm thinking about sort of and I don't know how this sits with either of
you, is I feel like fan fiction feels very different to like traditional publishing,

705
00:53:27,616 --> 00:53:28,577
right?

706
00:53:28,777 --> 00:53:30,478
And it feels like they're quite separate.

707
00:53:30,478 --> 00:53:34,209
One, you know, and we talked last week about how in one, you know.

708
00:53:34,559 --> 00:53:39,631
You you're selling books, you're making money off it, and and in fanfiction that's not
necessarily the goal.

709
00:53:39,631 --> 00:53:45,923
Um you're you're publishing your work for free a lot of the time, so that's not
necessarily the primary aim.

710
00:53:45,923 --> 00:53:55,677
But I'm wondering then, is there or are there things that you can do in fanfiction that
might limit you in traditional publishing?

711
00:53:57,938 --> 00:54:00,189
Hmm, I can see that.

712
00:54:00,189 --> 00:54:01,790
Yeah, definitely.

713
00:54:01,870 --> 00:54:12,856
mean you sort of alluded to earlier Jen that you don't need to do the work of like
building a new character of like creating a new thing of Introducing the audience to this

714
00:54:12,856 --> 00:54:14,627
character because they already have a love for them.

715
00:54:14,627 --> 00:54:15,258
They know them.

716
00:54:15,258 --> 00:54:24,203
They know their personality They know what they're like, they know their history and so
you can just get right into the good stuff Like there doesn't need to be a build-up.

717
00:54:24,203 --> 00:54:26,644
You can just get into the really

718
00:54:26,727 --> 00:54:30,220
fun, rewarding stuff because the buildups already happened.

719
00:54:30,220 --> 00:54:32,472
The original author's done it for you.

720
00:54:32,472 --> 00:54:38,016
They've built this character up and now you get to explore with them and put them whatever
scenario you want.

721
00:54:38,016 --> 00:54:51,076
And because it doesn't need to be structured in a traditional sense, as in doesn't need to
have a real massive character arc and can just be characters enjoying a moment that you've

722
00:54:51,076 --> 00:54:53,388
created for them.

723
00:54:53,388 --> 00:54:54,949
So yeah, it's...

724
00:54:55,954 --> 00:54:57,494
It's kind of like dopamine.

725
00:54:58,374 --> 00:55:11,314
people free fanfic are writing more like dopamine heading pieces rather than a full
complete work that sort of touches it out over a controlled way, free out 400 to 500

726
00:55:11,314 --> 00:55:12,234
pages.

727
00:55:12,394 --> 00:55:20,874
I think that's the big advantage of fanfic is that they are able to do that without having
to worry about the constraints of like a traditional book.

728
00:55:22,428 --> 00:55:24,308
Yeah, yeah.

729
00:55:24,308 --> 00:55:29,148
No, that is you took the words out of my mouth for some of it because here's the example
of that.

730
00:55:29,148 --> 00:55:29,928
All right.

731
00:55:29,928 --> 00:55:40,848
Lately, I'm sure we're all aware there's been a lot of fix that have been pulled from
fanfic and have had, they love to say the serial numbers rubbed off and characters renamed

732
00:55:40,848 --> 00:55:42,468
and magic systems rebuilt.

733
00:55:42,468 --> 00:55:45,188
And then they're packaging them to publish.

734
00:55:45,212 --> 00:55:50,132
And it took me a while to, you in the beginning I was like, oh my gosh, that's so exciting
because I love this story.

735
00:55:50,132 --> 00:55:53,331
And even if it wasn't said in this world, it'd be so good.

736
00:55:53,331 --> 00:55:55,792
That's something we tell ourselves as fic readers.

737
00:55:55,792 --> 00:56:04,212
And a few of those stories are so powerfully written that I was like, this still has to be
good, even if they make it their own, right?

738
00:56:04,272 --> 00:56:13,152
However, now that I've read examples of those fan fictions made traditionally published,
there is a very fatal flaw.

739
00:56:13,436 --> 00:56:23,239
exactly what you said Declan because I'm not connected with the characters they've now
subbed in for who I want, right?

740
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:34,782
This has happened with Ray Lofic I've read, Drominific I've read, with like Hunger Games
fix that I've been out there because the bond that I have is not with whoever you just

741
00:56:34,782 --> 00:56:35,682
subbed in.

742
00:56:35,682 --> 00:56:37,653
My bond is with Ray.

743
00:56:37,653 --> 00:56:39,243
My bond is with Hermione.

744
00:56:39,243 --> 00:56:43,456
And now you've just said, this is Jessie and she's a magic.

745
00:56:43,456 --> 00:56:44,937
And I'm like, I don't care anything about you.

746
00:56:44,937 --> 00:56:53,624
I don't have your 10 years of history at school where I watched you struggle through
things and I saw you be best friends with these guys and now you're falling in love with

747
00:56:53,624 --> 00:56:54,265
this person.

748
00:56:54,265 --> 00:56:56,476
Like none of that bond is there.

749
00:56:56,476 --> 00:57:04,153
And I didn't even foresee that that was going to be a problem until I started reading some
of these where I'm like, well the soul is gone.

750
00:57:04,153 --> 00:57:07,136
And it's like, well, duh, because the person that I loved is gone.

751
00:57:07,136 --> 00:57:10,098
They've had to take that person out because it wasn't theirs.

752
00:57:10,679 --> 00:57:12,560
And they had to make someone new.

753
00:57:12,708 --> 00:57:14,949
It doesn't mean that they're inherently a flawed writer.

754
00:57:14,949 --> 00:57:20,030
I mean, I'm sure they got offered so much money to take their fic and make it tradpubed.

755
00:57:20,030 --> 00:57:23,331
like, it's, it's hard to be like fully mad about that.

756
00:57:23,331 --> 00:57:31,293
But I also think that people and those of us who are excited by it are quickly realizing,
oh, there is a big difference.

757
00:57:31,293 --> 00:57:32,794
I didn't know that there would be.

758
00:57:32,794 --> 00:57:42,176
I thought that if you switched out the characters, you changed it from, let's say wands to
just using your hand or doing this, that it would be okay with me.

759
00:57:42,296 --> 00:57:48,418
And it's really not because everything I was connected with, you're now asking me to be
connected with its ghost.

760
00:57:48,519 --> 00:57:50,239
And I'm not connected with its ghost.

761
00:57:50,239 --> 00:57:53,000
I'm connected with those characters.

762
00:57:53,120 --> 00:58:02,884
And so that is where the strength of fan fiction is the fandom behind it, who already has
a shared language with you, who already knows what you're trying to do.

763
00:58:02,884 --> 00:58:07,226
If you make a reference to uh Ginger Ale, I know what it means.

764
00:58:07,226 --> 00:58:11,942
You know, if you switch that out with something else, I'm like, what does that mean?

765
00:58:11,942 --> 00:58:12,652
right?

766
00:58:12,652 --> 00:58:14,073
So that's exactly it.

767
00:58:14,073 --> 00:58:18,045
And I think that, you know, Treadpub was able to ride the wave of that a bit.

768
00:58:18,045 --> 00:58:20,817
And to be fair, they've been doing it for a long time.

769
00:58:20,817 --> 00:58:21,617
Okay.

770
00:58:21,617 --> 00:58:26,750
There's like the Shadowhunter series, there's 50 Shades of Grey, there's just all of those
ones.

771
00:58:26,750 --> 00:58:30,262
And some of those, it worked better because they weren't magical.

772
00:58:30,262 --> 00:58:34,254
But specifically ones that are HP thick, you try building the magic system.

773
00:58:34,254 --> 00:58:37,586
It really was more complicated than you make it sound for all the...

774
00:58:38,466 --> 00:58:41,498
I know we want to talk about her, but for all this stuff about that person.

775
00:58:41,498 --> 00:58:47,082
They built a cool magic system and you just trying to sub in your stuff and then be like,
see, it was easy.

776
00:58:47,082 --> 00:58:49,773
And I'm like, yeah, but I don't understand yours.

777
00:58:49,774 --> 00:58:59,851
So you can't just sub in and then expect everyone to think it makes sense because you
don't have all the background for it that it took seven books to get to before I was

778
00:58:59,851 --> 00:59:02,622
reading this fan fiction and liking it, if that makes sense.

779
00:59:02,622 --> 00:59:06,705
So that's the flaw in my opinion is it seems cool.

780
00:59:06,705 --> 00:59:11,118
Like, Ooh, they found a way to get paid and not, and not steal the copyright, but

781
00:59:11,329 --> 00:59:13,530
Ugh, it's that copyrighted work that I loved.

782
00:59:13,530 --> 00:59:18,122
I don't love your soulless story that you're trying to tell me.

783
00:59:20,314 --> 00:59:26,278
Yeah, I think that's where that idea of like this reads like fan fiction comes from.

784
00:59:26,278 --> 00:59:37,866
um It's because it's a story that has no background substance or anything behind it that
makes you care enough about these characters.

785
00:59:37,866 --> 00:59:41,629
um You need to build them from the ground up.

786
00:59:41,629 --> 00:59:42,769
You need to introduce them.

787
00:59:42,769 --> 00:59:46,792
You need to make them liked or at least

788
00:59:46,954 --> 00:59:52,858
you know, entertaining to the reader, you need to be invested in their story, but that
takes time to build up.

789
00:59:52,858 --> 00:59:54,550
You can't just do it instantly.

790
00:59:54,550 --> 01:00:03,966
And it's only whenever you finally get your reader to care about what happens to your
character, can you get into like the events around them, like what's going to happen to

791
01:00:03,966 --> 01:00:04,136
them?

792
01:00:04,136 --> 01:00:08,339
Like I need to care about you first before I give a shit about what you're going to do.

793
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:14,942
But fanfic is literally just putting characters and making them do stuff that are already
established.

794
01:00:14,942 --> 01:00:17,634
So they don't need to do any of that background work.

795
01:00:17,654 --> 01:00:21,627
so whenever someone says this reads like fan fiction, that's what they're talking about.

796
01:00:21,627 --> 01:00:24,810
It's like, you've not done any work to introduce these characters.

797
01:00:24,810 --> 01:00:25,631
I don't care about them.

798
01:00:25,631 --> 01:00:29,964
I don't really know why we haven't like introduced them.

799
01:00:29,964 --> 01:00:32,676
No backstory, no nothing, no context to them.

800
01:00:32,676 --> 01:00:34,408
So why did I care?

801
01:00:34,408 --> 01:00:39,532
um So yeah, it can be definitely translate.

802
01:00:39,532 --> 01:00:44,896
I would say it's more of an art to translate a fanfic into an original piece.

803
01:00:44,966 --> 01:00:47,610
a lot harder than maybe you would think.

804
01:00:47,610 --> 01:00:48,400
Yeah.

805
01:00:49,001 --> 01:00:49,701
Yeah.

806
01:00:49,701 --> 01:00:56,005
Well, and just one other note, I think that's why the ones that have been successful have
been the ones that are complete A-U's.

807
01:00:56,005 --> 01:00:59,327
Like there's the love hypothesis is Ray Low fanfic.

808
01:00:59,327 --> 01:01:01,168
There's nothing magical.

809
01:01:01,168 --> 01:01:08,412
They took the character archetypes as the fanfic piece that they took and like the kind of
like power differential as a fanfic part they took.

810
01:01:08,412 --> 01:01:13,692
They're not still Jedi on complete different sides of the light and dark side.

811
01:01:13,692 --> 01:01:18,292
It's the archetype of Kylo Ren and it's the archetype of Rey and we put him in a new
scenario.

812
01:01:18,292 --> 01:01:21,452
And then that is a completely new story.

813
01:01:21,452 --> 01:01:29,972
And so even if you read that original fanfic or whatever it was, which, I believe with
that one too, that wasn't a fanfic that was trained.

814
01:01:29,972 --> 01:01:36,152
The author wrote that type of fanfic and then wrote this type of story brand new using
those archetypes.

815
01:01:36,152 --> 01:01:36,484
And

816
01:01:36,484 --> 01:01:42,306
That makes so much more sense because that's what all characters are is archetypes anyway
of something else for the most part.

817
01:01:42,306 --> 01:01:47,437
So to me, those are the ones that are and why fidget shades of gray work more too.

818
01:01:47,437 --> 01:01:49,778
We're not still vampires or werewolves fighting over someone.

819
01:01:49,778 --> 01:01:52,518
It's the personality of them or this or whatever.

820
01:01:52,518 --> 01:01:58,090
Whereas when you did, you you said it too of like, have it right here of alchemized.

821
01:01:58,130 --> 01:02:03,692
The reason why manacle works is that I know that person who's being in captivity and being
treated that way.

822
01:02:03,692 --> 01:02:05,560
And I love her so much.

823
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,410
And then you have Elkomize and I'm like, I don't know who this woman is.

824
01:02:08,410 --> 01:02:12,182
I mean, yeah, I'm sad she's in captivity, but I don't care about her yet.

825
01:02:12,182 --> 01:02:16,383
You know, all you've done is be shocking and put someone in this position.

826
01:02:16,383 --> 01:02:23,015
because that story is about someone starting with amnesia, I also, she doesn't even have
memories to share with me either to make me love her.

827
01:02:23,015 --> 01:02:26,946
She's literally a blank slate dropped in a cell and I'm supposed to love her.

828
01:02:26,946 --> 01:02:33,007
Whereas in Manicold, I know who was dropped in a cell and I'm like, my God, this is
horrible.

829
01:02:33,108 --> 01:02:33,748
no.

830
01:02:33,748 --> 01:02:34,648
So.

831
01:02:34,832 --> 01:02:43,257
There's just no way that author was ever going to be able to do that successfully, even
though she was so talented in what she did in fan fiction.

832
01:02:43,257 --> 01:02:48,600
Like that fanfic is devastating, but it doesn't work to be translated.

833
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,462
The strength of it is who the characters are in that scenario.

834
01:02:52,462 --> 01:03:00,507
And if you take them out of that to make it publishable and to make money off of it,
you've lost all the stuff that made it compelling to me.

835
01:03:00,507 --> 01:03:03,258
And again, like I said, it's like loving a ghost.

836
01:03:03,258 --> 01:03:06,932
Like this is a Draco-like man, but he's not.

837
01:03:06,932 --> 01:03:09,205
And so I don't care about him.

838
01:03:09,205 --> 01:03:10,536
He's just a jerk.

839
01:03:11,257 --> 01:03:12,959
Like I don't have any back love for him.

840
01:03:12,959 --> 01:03:14,070
So anyway.

841
01:03:15,102 --> 01:03:30,466
Yeah, I I really like that you distinguish between what makes fanfic successful and what
makes a successful translation into traditional publishing because for the many that have

842
01:03:30,466 --> 01:03:42,030
worked and sold really well and transitioned really well, there must be hundreds, if not
thousands, of ones that didn't just didn't work and, you know, got left on the cutting

843
01:03:42,030 --> 01:03:44,042
room floor and never got published.

844
01:03:44,042 --> 01:03:46,143
traditionally published at least.

845
01:03:46,403 --> 01:03:52,105
And I'm wondering if there are are any listeners out there who know of some of those
stories.

846
01:03:52,105 --> 01:03:55,947
I'm interested to I'm interested in the story behind the story.

847
01:03:55,947 --> 01:04:01,990
I'm not interested necessarily like it's the E behind the scenes kind of version that I'm
looking for.

848
01:04:02,532 --> 01:04:03,368
Mm-hmm.

849
01:04:03,636 --> 01:04:08,132
I was a very early two thousands reference, so I apologize.

850
01:04:10,603 --> 01:04:20,491
So you guys, was wondering if you'd indulge me in a little game at the end of our hangout
today, because I really wanted to find a way to give our listeners some recs, but I'm also

851
01:04:20,491 --> 01:04:29,427
super curious about how you'll feel about some of these fanfics, especially after Declan
just said, I'm just so not interested in that.

852
01:04:29,427 --> 01:04:32,139
But they aren't all depressing, I promise.

853
01:04:34,026 --> 01:04:35,417
That's very interesting.

854
01:04:36,622 --> 01:04:38,383
I know, I know.

855
01:04:38,383 --> 01:04:48,866
So for those of you listening, what I kind of came up with is kind of like fanfic tier
ranking slash like Jeopardy kind of thing, which I know makes no sense, but hopefully it

856
01:04:48,866 --> 01:04:49,966
won't go.

857
01:04:49,986 --> 01:04:53,237
But if some of you have ever seen a tier ranking video, right?

858
01:04:53,237 --> 01:04:58,388
There's usually the three tiers and there's like S tier, A tier, D tier, F tier type of
thing.

859
01:04:58,388 --> 01:05:03,710
But since they haven't read any of these and I have, I thought it'd be more fun for them
to...

860
01:05:03,868 --> 01:05:07,319
do something like that off of just the first impression of the fic.

861
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:14,302
So we have a list of all these different tropes or tags, as I have said, that are found
within Heated Rivalry.

862
01:05:14,302 --> 01:05:24,786
And I think maybe we'll do like three rounds of it or something, I think, where they pick
a tag they like, and I have a fic that corresponds with each one, and we'll read the blurb

863
01:05:24,786 --> 01:05:33,880
and then they can decide if they would either like to immediately click, cautiously
intrigued, I'm never picking that up.

864
01:05:33,998 --> 01:05:36,110
or what the fuck is that?

865
01:05:37,578 --> 01:05:38,618
Thanks.

866
01:05:38,648 --> 01:05:44,651
and Declan knows how competitive I am, but this doesn't feel like a game where you win a
prize, unfortunately.

867
01:05:45,372 --> 01:05:48,524
No, but it will be, we'll only do each tag one time.

868
01:05:48,524 --> 01:05:51,775
So I mean, maybe it's a competition of who gets to pick the best.

869
01:05:51,775 --> 01:05:52,786
I don't know.

870
01:05:52,986 --> 01:05:56,038
But let's read them all off first here.

871
01:05:56,038 --> 01:05:58,289
I'll read the categories as it were.

872
01:05:58,289 --> 01:06:03,312
And then I don't know who, which of you, which of you is the youngest?

873
01:06:03,312 --> 01:06:04,252
I don't know your ages.

874
01:06:04,252 --> 01:06:06,853
So, okay.

875
01:06:07,394 --> 01:06:08,765
Declan, you'll get to go first then.

876
01:06:08,765 --> 01:06:11,286
Likely doing the board games, the youngest gets to go first.

877
01:06:11,286 --> 01:06:14,658
So, but here's the categories.

878
01:06:14,940 --> 01:06:18,393
the tags and then uh we'll go through.

879
01:06:18,393 --> 01:06:35,645
So there will be enemies to lovers, friends to lovers, uh fake dating slash marriage of
convenience, soulmate AU, uh retiring from hockey AU, secret relationship, marriage fic or

880
01:06:35,645 --> 01:06:42,290
post marriage fic, already married couple, hurt slash comfort, only one bed,

881
01:06:42,718 --> 01:07:02,778
a texting slash social media AU, amnesia AU, mafia AU, injured Shane slash injured Ilya,
one of them is hurt and the other one's looking out for them, plane crash AU, Omegaverse,

882
01:07:03,238 --> 01:07:07,558
or it fits nothing, it's just for the pain of it all.

883
01:07:10,916 --> 01:07:16,209
So, um, Declan, if you need me to repeat any of those, that's fine, but you first.

884
01:07:16,209 --> 01:07:19,445
You pick a category and I'll share a fic with you.

885
01:07:20,931 --> 01:07:23,916
I want hard comfort.

886
01:07:28,494 --> 01:07:31,378
And then pick one, two or three.

887
01:07:34,716 --> 01:07:35,727
That's a good one.

888
01:07:35,727 --> 01:07:36,767
Okay.

889
01:07:37,968 --> 01:07:39,108
Pull it up here.

890
01:07:39,328 --> 01:07:40,528
All right.

891
01:07:40,589 --> 01:07:43,389
So the fic that I have for you.

892
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:44,650
this is a good one.

893
01:07:44,650 --> 01:07:48,572
This one is called something you can fix by someone around.

894
01:07:48,572 --> 01:07:54,255
And this is actually a like duology fic because this one's a bit shorter and then it leads
into the next one.

895
01:07:54,255 --> 01:07:56,315
But here's the blurb of this one.

896
01:07:57,676 --> 01:08:01,978
Maybe if the video ended there, Shane thought it would be okay.

897
01:08:02,148 --> 01:08:13,808
Still incriminating, still a fucking disaster, still embarrassing to have his breakup with
this beautiful actress filmed and disseminated on Reddit of all places, but not a nail in

898
01:08:13,808 --> 01:08:15,850
his coffin burying him alive.

899
01:08:15,850 --> 01:08:18,392
But the video didn't end there.

900
01:08:18,713 --> 01:08:29,912
So this fic is a fan recorded Shane and Rose's conversation when Rose asks if he was gay
and it gets disseminated on Reddit.

901
01:08:34,408 --> 01:08:37,362
So what do you think about that one?

902
01:08:37,443 --> 01:08:45,515
Would you immediately click on it, cautiously intrigued, I'm never picking that up, or
what the fuck is that?

903
01:08:48,230 --> 01:08:50,782
Honestly the more I'm thinking about it

904
01:08:53,537 --> 01:08:54,647
slow entry.

905
01:08:57,156 --> 01:08:58,416
That's a good one.

906
01:08:58,416 --> 01:09:00,086
ah

907
01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:01,111
like

908
01:09:03,370 --> 01:09:06,501
Who's comforting who in this situation?

909
01:09:07,442 --> 01:09:12,603
Obviously Shane is hurt, but is Ilya coming in and making it better?

910
01:09:12,744 --> 01:09:13,584
I don't know.

911
01:09:13,584 --> 01:09:20,667
Yeah, Maybe, yeah, maybe I can think of myself reading it, but I'm not like, I need to
read that.

912
01:09:21,423 --> 01:09:29,545
yeah, well, the second part of the blurb is that this is also outed while Ilya is in
Russia.

913
01:09:29,545 --> 01:09:41,448
Now, his name isn't mentioned in the video because Shane doesn't tell Rose who he's in
love with, but it gets leaked while Ilya is gone and he loses his fucking mind.

914
01:09:41,448 --> 01:09:43,409
That's what this book has.

915
01:09:43,409 --> 01:09:45,639
So, Sylvan, what do you think of that one?

916
01:09:45,639 --> 01:09:48,695
You also get to place it because it'll be fun if we get to place it.

917
01:09:48,695 --> 01:09:48,906
I?

918
01:09:48,906 --> 01:09:49,336
Okay.

919
01:09:49,336 --> 01:09:53,280
So in the words of Lola Tongue, this is my favourite question.

920
01:09:54,833 --> 01:10:04,946
I will go because I am hella nosy and I'm loving the drama, and everyone who listens to us
knows that I bloody love Rose.

921
01:10:04,946 --> 01:10:08,319
So I am going with immediately click.

922
01:10:08,892 --> 01:10:10,783
Yes, yeah, great choice.

923
01:10:10,783 --> 01:10:14,879
Also because, um well, what else was I gonna say about that?

924
01:10:14,879 --> 01:10:16,961
We all know someone overheard that conversation.

925
01:10:16,961 --> 01:10:19,813
There was people sitting right next to them.

926
01:10:19,817 --> 01:10:22,469
And we all have phones in this day and age.

927
01:10:22,469 --> 01:10:23,442
restaurants?

928
01:10:24,702 --> 01:10:25,842
I know.

929
01:10:25,842 --> 01:10:27,962
I mean, the mood lighting was beautiful.

930
01:10:27,962 --> 01:10:30,162
Hudson's face acting, superb.

931
01:10:30,162 --> 01:10:34,102
But you do not have that in a cheesecake factory for fuck's sake.

932
01:10:34,102 --> 01:10:36,239
So it's also one of those things.

933
01:10:36,239 --> 01:10:40,185
me in the background, my head popped over the overboosting and like...

934
01:10:42,590 --> 01:10:46,184
I I know, and they're in Montreal!

935
01:10:46,723 --> 01:10:50,063
No, he's not exactly like, a nobody.

936
01:10:51,063 --> 01:10:52,323
Oh god.

937
01:10:53,202 --> 01:10:59,635
I stand by he should like he should have been at her house or she should have been at his
house having that dinner.

938
01:10:59,635 --> 01:11:01,166
That's where that should have been.

939
01:11:01,166 --> 01:11:03,607
But the setting was beautiful.

940
01:11:03,607 --> 01:11:04,507
So.

941
01:11:04,627 --> 01:11:05,647
All right.

942
01:11:06,228 --> 01:11:08,109
Okay, Sylvan.

943
01:11:08,649 --> 01:11:10,980
What's your poison, sir?

944
01:11:11,237 --> 01:11:18,433
So to help our algorithm, I am going to go with texting slash social media AU.

945
01:11:21,928 --> 01:11:22,558
so excited.

946
01:11:22,558 --> 01:11:24,880
I love this one so much.

947
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:25,200
Yes.

948
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:32,172
um This one is called If This Is It by SD Blackthorn.

949
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:35,351
this is making me laugh.

950
01:11:35,431 --> 01:11:36,411
Sorry.

951
01:11:36,712 --> 01:11:44,216
So this one does take place during the long game, but it doesn't have spoilers because
it's an AU.

952
01:11:44,216 --> 01:11:45,998
So this absolutely doesn't happen.

953
01:11:45,998 --> 01:11:49,290
It just is taking place when they are together, but they are a secret.

954
01:11:49,290 --> 01:11:51,180
OK, that's the setup you need to know.

955
01:11:51,761 --> 01:12:00,236
So when a petty morning argument is the last thing Ilya says to Shane before he boards the
Metro's plane.

956
01:12:00,322 --> 01:12:04,963
He thinks the worst consequences will be a bruised ego and an awkward apology.

957
01:12:05,163 --> 01:12:08,484
Instead, the aircraft declares an emergency.

958
01:12:08,704 --> 01:12:09,465
For Shane.

959
01:12:09,465 --> 01:12:10,985
For Shane, by the way.

960
01:12:11,085 --> 01:12:18,367
As social media explodes, the hockey world halts and Shane's Instagram messages turn from
apologies to goodbyes.

961
01:12:18,367 --> 01:12:23,108
And Ilya is forced to confront the one truth he's been hiding longer than his feelings.

962
01:12:23,108 --> 01:12:26,329
Shane Hollander is his, and he may have just lost him.

963
01:12:26,329 --> 01:12:29,794
A mixed media long game era angst spiral featured

964
01:12:29,794 --> 01:12:37,318
breaking news alerts, trending fan edits, locker room confessions, and the most
devastating Instagram DM thread you will ever

965
01:12:40,574 --> 01:12:41,818
Interesting.

966
01:12:42,666 --> 01:12:45,231
I forgot what this one was about.

967
01:12:47,957 --> 01:12:59,062
I'm going to go with cautiously intrigued because I feel like it's not grabbing me
immediately, but there might be there might be a story there.

968
01:12:59,282 --> 01:13:05,665
But I feel like we've we've had iterations of this in other mediums.

969
01:13:06,215 --> 01:13:10,056
Yeah, the other part of this one is some of the other tags.

970
01:13:10,056 --> 01:13:14,067
This fic also include because it's a mixed media like texting and thing.

971
01:13:14,067 --> 01:13:17,418
It's a fic you should probably be read for those listening.

972
01:13:17,418 --> 01:13:26,871
You should read this fic either on a three or download a PDF because it will have like,
literally, it'll look like Twitter.

973
01:13:26,871 --> 01:13:31,746
It'll look like your phone on it and you can't get that sent to your Kindle.

974
01:13:31,746 --> 01:13:37,110
But this one includes a text thread between real life hockey captains.

975
01:13:37,110 --> 01:13:45,737
So it has Shane and Sidney Crosby and all of these real life players who I don't know any
of their names because it means nothing to me.

976
01:13:45,737 --> 01:13:47,358
I only like fictional hockey.

977
01:13:47,358 --> 01:13:56,104
But they're all in a real group and they all band together to decide we are looking out
for these guys and everyone can fuck off.

978
01:13:56,104 --> 01:13:58,246
So it's really great.

979
01:13:59,532 --> 01:14:00,290
Mmm.

980
01:14:00,290 --> 01:14:04,075
But yeah, so that one was fun.

981
01:14:04,075 --> 01:14:05,535
Yeah, what do you think?

982
01:14:05,877 --> 01:14:07,518
Shane in danger on.

983
01:14:07,833 --> 01:14:23,006
if it's what I think it is then I would be like really interested to see but because I'm
not sure my idea is that is this like about like Ilya decides to go public with the

984
01:14:23,006 --> 01:14:24,857
relationship because he thinks he's gonna die

985
01:14:26,380 --> 01:14:28,353
No, it's not.

986
01:14:28,515 --> 01:14:34,057
It's they get caught at the hospital comforting each other and it gets spread on Twitter.

987
01:14:34,057 --> 01:14:35,528
Mm-hmm.

988
01:14:35,528 --> 01:14:37,585
Twitter's such a cesspool.

989
01:14:37,689 --> 01:14:39,776
Even in imaginary worlds.

990
01:14:39,883 --> 01:14:41,865
Much later.

991
01:14:41,865 --> 01:14:43,397
emergency contact.

992
01:14:43,397 --> 01:14:47,760
He gets called he's sitting by his side and someone takes a picture.

993
01:14:48,874 --> 01:14:53,716
And the only people who know are you not and David at that point too.

994
01:14:53,716 --> 01:14:57,894
So nobody else even knows I don't think Hayden even knows in this one.

995
01:14:57,894 --> 01:15:00,456
just know that nurse blabbed.

996
01:15:00,456 --> 01:15:02,080
It's gotta be the nurse.

997
01:15:02,767 --> 01:15:05,979
And this fic is a no like sex fic either.

998
01:15:05,979 --> 01:15:09,251
a not rated, which means it's literally just about like all that.

999
01:15:09,251 --> 01:15:11,502
Like you get to see you and I talking with the lawyers.

1000
01:15:11,502 --> 01:15:13,223
You get to see emails back and forth.

1001
01:15:13,223 --> 01:15:15,795
Like it's well done.

1002
01:15:15,795 --> 01:15:17,756
So great choice.

1003
01:15:18,397 --> 01:15:21,218
All right, Declan, what's your next category?

1004
01:15:21,913 --> 01:15:24,690
I love enemies to lovers.

1005
01:15:26,530 --> 01:15:26,970
Hmm.

1006
01:15:26,970 --> 01:15:29,330
Oh, I was hoping you'd pick this one.

1007
01:15:29,330 --> 01:15:30,250
This is the best.

1008
01:15:30,250 --> 01:15:31,350
This is the time of my life.

1009
01:15:31,350 --> 01:15:33,950
We could do a whole episode of this.

1010
01:15:34,910 --> 01:15:35,770
All right.

1011
01:15:35,770 --> 01:15:44,270
This one, I almost, almost put in what the fuck, but because Sylvan had enemies to lovers
on the list, I was like, oh, I'll also put it here.

1012
01:15:44,270 --> 01:15:49,290
This fic is called Mutually Assured Exposure by Cockatoo.

1013
01:15:50,070 --> 01:15:52,614
And oh my gosh, I'm gonna, whew.

1014
01:15:52,664 --> 01:15:53,915
Gonna blush reading this one.

1015
01:15:53,915 --> 01:16:05,221
Okay, well at the top of his game, professional porn star, Ilja Rosenoff, is approached by
the famous yet boringly untalented OnlyFans creator, Shane Hollander, who wants to

1016
01:16:05,221 --> 01:16:06,441
collaborate.

1017
01:16:06,574 --> 01:16:07,422
All right?

1018
01:16:07,422 --> 01:16:15,826
What starts as a transactional partnership quickly turns into a war of egos, blurred
boundaries, and incredible on-screen chemistry.

1019
01:16:15,987 --> 01:16:25,765
As their views climb and the sexual tension thickens, they're left to confront the reality
that maybe their mutual hatred might be the spark of something more intimate than just

1020
01:16:25,765 --> 01:16:26,625
sex.

1021
01:16:27,409 --> 01:16:35,542
This is a heated rivalry meets for the fans and I am incredibly interested in reading that
book.

1022
01:16:38,862 --> 01:16:39,583
it's so good.

1023
01:16:39,583 --> 01:16:48,029
Side note to add flavor, um Svetlana and Ilya actually started the company that does this.

1024
01:16:48,029 --> 01:16:52,673
And many of the other hockey players are also performers who work for their company.

1025
01:16:52,673 --> 01:16:58,538
Because Ilya came from Russia where he was in a predatory arrangement with a porn company.

1026
01:16:58,538 --> 01:17:03,502
And he finally broke away when Svetlana helped him get citizenship here.

1027
01:17:03,502 --> 01:17:08,878
So he also has this trauma in the background of when he was like basically like

1028
01:17:08,878 --> 01:17:10,642
a forced sex worker back then.

1029
01:17:10,642 --> 01:17:13,046
So lots of layers to this one.

1030
01:17:13,329 --> 01:17:14,949
How long is this fake?

1031
01:17:16,335 --> 01:17:19,547
Oh, it's not too r- Well, this one's a good length.

1032
01:17:19,547 --> 01:17:21,083
I think this one's like 500 pages.

1033
01:17:21,083 --> 01:17:22,888
It's- it's long.

1034
01:17:23,206 --> 01:17:24,508
That's just a book.

1035
01:17:26,194 --> 01:17:27,154
That's...

1036
01:17:27,577 --> 01:17:29,058
I wanted to ruin a book.

1037
01:17:29,058 --> 01:17:29,898
Yeah.

1038
01:17:30,759 --> 01:17:31,930
Yeah, it's so good.

1039
01:17:31,930 --> 01:17:35,523
And Shane is actually a solo worker usually too.

1040
01:17:35,523 --> 01:17:37,444
So his OnlyFans is solo work.

1041
01:17:37,444 --> 01:17:41,307
So Ilya's his first like on screen kabang.

1042
01:17:41,307 --> 01:17:45,530
So what was that?

1043
01:17:45,807 --> 01:17:47,677
So it feels all brown for him.

1044
01:17:48,798 --> 01:17:50,318
It does, it does.

1045
01:17:50,318 --> 01:18:00,302
Oh, one other piece of this, because I don't know if you guys will ever actually read
these ones, but the reason he got into sex work is he was in college, he was gonna be a

1046
01:18:00,302 --> 01:18:05,423
hockey player, and his first boyfriend, like, shared his nudes.

1047
01:18:05,423 --> 01:18:11,905
So he then went into OnlyFans, because he was like, well, fine, if you're gonna show these
about me, I'm gonna make money.

1048
01:18:11,905 --> 01:18:14,718
And guess who his manager still is?

1049
01:18:20,861 --> 01:18:22,356
Oh my god.

1050
01:18:23,626 --> 01:18:26,662
It's, I, I'm giggling so much, this truly is a good one.

1051
01:18:26,662 --> 01:18:31,011
I didn't put any like duds, even the ones that are what the fuck on this list, they're not
duds.

1052
01:18:31,011 --> 01:18:32,494
I didn't put shitty ones on here.

1053
01:18:32,494 --> 01:18:33,725
Like this was good.

1054
01:18:33,795 --> 01:18:36,511
Yeah, very interested in that one.

1055
01:18:36,573 --> 01:18:37,779
Very interested.

1056
01:18:37,779 --> 01:18:39,040
Super good.

1057
01:18:39,303 --> 01:18:43,274
Okay, what were your, okay, so your immediate click, is that what I'm hearing?

1058
01:18:43,421 --> 01:18:45,004
yeah, immediate click, yeah.

1059
01:18:46,018 --> 01:18:47,421
All right, Sylvan, what about you?

1060
01:18:47,421 --> 01:18:49,945
Oh, hundred percent immediate click.

1061
01:18:50,312 --> 01:18:51,365
Mmm.

1062
01:18:51,491 --> 01:18:52,189
I love it.

1063
01:18:52,189 --> 01:18:54,532
Shane's solo work for sure.

1064
01:18:55,117 --> 01:18:56,078
No!

1065
01:18:58,204 --> 01:18:59,085
They're

1066
01:18:59,834 --> 01:19:00,594
right.

1067
01:19:00,594 --> 01:19:01,554
It's right.

1068
01:19:01,554 --> 01:19:02,694
It's so good.

1069
01:19:02,694 --> 01:19:04,634
Because okay, more details.

1070
01:19:04,634 --> 01:19:09,414
When Ilya finds out he's gonna be working with him, he thinks like, who is this OnlyFans
creator?

1071
01:19:09,414 --> 01:19:12,294
We run an empire, a porn empire.

1072
01:19:12,294 --> 01:19:18,354
But then he like joins it under another name and like, is like he's going so slow.

1073
01:19:18,354 --> 01:19:23,514
And so he pays like $10,000 for Shane to just get to the money shot of the pic.

1074
01:19:23,514 --> 01:19:25,694
Because he's like, he's taking forever.

1075
01:19:25,694 --> 01:19:29,410
And he's like, when we get to $10,000, then it'll go and he's just like,

1076
01:19:29,410 --> 01:19:29,991
send.

1077
01:19:29,991 --> 01:19:33,432
So he's like paying for his secret.

1078
01:19:33,432 --> 01:19:36,516
which is actually also Iliacoded.

1079
01:19:37,652 --> 01:19:40,223
So much, so much.

1080
01:19:40,223 --> 01:19:46,005
like, Shane isn't only supposed to collab with him, like he's gonna, cause again, all the
hockey players were there.

1081
01:19:46,005 --> 01:19:55,808
So like Harris does the social media for the companies and we have like Svetlana's the,
like she does the scheduling and then like, so Shane is supposed to work with Scott

1082
01:19:55,808 --> 01:19:56,848
Hunter.

1083
01:19:57,342 --> 01:19:59,862
And my Kip is like a fluffer.

1084
01:19:59,862 --> 01:20:01,170
Kip is a fluffer.

1085
01:20:07,106 --> 01:20:14,890
I'm telling you it's magnificent like the way he's still so totally Ilya but filming porn
is amazing.

1086
01:20:14,890 --> 01:20:16,370
It's so good.

1087
01:20:16,791 --> 01:20:17,791
So good.

1088
01:20:18,491 --> 01:20:20,812
Yeah, anyway, whoo.

1089
01:20:20,812 --> 01:20:23,684
All right, or I mean Sylvan it's your turn.

1090
01:20:23,684 --> 01:20:24,864
What are you thinking?

1091
01:20:24,864 --> 01:20:26,270
shall we do one more?

1092
01:20:27,288 --> 01:20:28,121
No, let's do three.

1093
01:20:28,121 --> 01:20:29,113
Come on, we gotta do three.

1094
01:20:29,113 --> 01:20:29,778
We can do it.

1095
01:20:29,778 --> 01:20:30,678
okay.

1096
01:20:32,122 --> 01:20:33,103
You know what?

1097
01:20:33,103 --> 01:20:37,549
To change the tone, I'd like to go Soulmate's Alternate Universe.

1098
01:20:38,446 --> 01:20:39,253
Oh.

1099
01:20:42,106 --> 01:20:46,068
This one's interesting, because it might not be a soulmate the way you think.

1100
01:20:46,188 --> 01:20:46,939
Very interesting.

1101
01:20:46,939 --> 01:20:51,626
Okay, so this fic is called Slipfast by...

1102
01:20:51,626 --> 01:20:52,412
I can't pronounce it.

1103
01:20:52,412 --> 01:20:53,662
They don't have a sensical name.

1104
01:20:53,662 --> 01:20:55,633
I can't pronounce it, but we'll link it down below.

1105
01:20:55,633 --> 01:21:00,986
um And I think the best way...

1106
01:21:00,986 --> 01:21:02,647
Okay, here we go.

1107
01:21:02,647 --> 01:21:03,638
All right.

1108
01:21:04,859 --> 01:21:09,501
You're supposed to smoke over there, someone says from behind Ilja.

1109
01:21:09,501 --> 01:21:11,256
Ilja almost dropped his cigarette.

1110
01:21:11,256 --> 01:21:17,912
His English was shitty, but he had studied that sentence enough times over the years to
understand it immediately.

1111
01:21:17,912 --> 01:21:20,294
He didn't even think about his words much anymore.

1112
01:21:20,294 --> 01:21:22,616
It was impossible to avoid them.

1113
01:21:22,616 --> 01:21:27,159
He turned instinctively and was face to face with Shane Buckinghollander.

1114
01:21:27,159 --> 01:21:32,865
Of almost seven billion people, of course, Ilja's soulmate had to be his fated rival.

1115
01:21:32,865 --> 01:21:34,366
It was almost poetic.

1116
01:21:34,366 --> 01:21:38,389
Still, Ilja had enough sense to realize just how bad this was.

1117
01:21:38,810 --> 01:21:39,554
Or...

1118
01:21:39,554 --> 01:21:41,956
Shane says Ilya's soulmate words.

1119
01:21:41,956 --> 01:21:47,620
Ilya vows never to speak a word to him to keep him from finding out and they fall in love
anyway.

1120
01:21:47,621 --> 01:21:56,848
So to explain what that means, this soulmate AU is when you hit puberty, you get told what
the first line your soulmate will say to you.

1121
01:21:59,851 --> 01:22:03,995
and it's literally like tattooed on you, like it appears, like it appears.

1122
01:22:03,995 --> 01:22:08,338
So he knows that his soulmate's supposed to say you're supposed to smoke over there.

1123
01:22:09,248 --> 01:22:11,562
And then he doesn't speak back.

1124
01:22:11,562 --> 01:22:17,170
So he just like pretends he's smoking when Shane's talking to him and it's like, mm, mm,
mm.

1125
01:22:17,170 --> 01:22:20,714
Because then Shane will never know that they're soulmates.

1126
01:22:22,098 --> 01:22:22,631
mm.

1127
01:22:22,631 --> 01:22:24,183
mirror coded.

1128
01:22:24,625 --> 01:22:30,402
Unless there's I I I don't know if there's been an episode of that on on it or if there's
been something similar.

1129
01:22:30,402 --> 01:22:33,823
I don't know what the other tags are.

1130
01:22:34,822 --> 01:22:40,766
No, but they do end up, see they end up having a texting relationship because it's only
spoken words.

1131
01:22:40,826 --> 01:22:53,107
So in this fic, like Ilja gets Shane's number earlier on and they start, but every time
they fuck, Ilja doesn't speak for like, it's, this one isn't super.

1132
01:22:53,107 --> 01:22:54,068
Mermaid?

1133
01:22:54,998 --> 01:22:59,032
Basically, basically, this one's pretty short too.

1134
01:22:59,396 --> 01:23:01,482
But yeah, it's weird.

1135
01:23:01,493 --> 01:23:04,860
I mean, I wanna know who Ursula is in this scenario.

1136
01:23:05,824 --> 01:23:07,368
I'm intrigued.

1137
01:23:07,368 --> 01:23:08,268
Yeah.

1138
01:23:10,113 --> 01:23:11,442
What about you, Declan?

1139
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:14,410
Yeah, yeah, I would say cautiously intrigued.

1140
01:23:18,555 --> 01:23:26,795
Yeah, this one I really wanted to punch alien this one I just got to tell you guys but
maybe you enjoy that maybe enjoy that.

1141
01:23:27,115 --> 01:23:28,315
It was interesting.

1142
01:23:28,315 --> 01:23:31,635
I'll tell you that I was like, what is this?

1143
01:23:32,615 --> 01:23:35,075
I like trying a use of all kinds.

1144
01:23:35,075 --> 01:23:45,035
So I was like, oh, soulmate one that isn't Omega verse because there can be soulmates in
Omega verse and I was like, I would like one that isn't that.

1145
01:23:46,138 --> 01:23:47,458
Not a big fan of that, you guys.

1146
01:23:47,458 --> 01:23:47,878
Sorry.

1147
01:23:47,878 --> 01:23:53,378
I do have one to suggest if you should pick that category, but it's just weird for me.

1148
01:23:53,378 --> 01:23:54,318
It's always been weird.

1149
01:23:54,318 --> 01:23:56,038
It's not Chana and Ilya specific.

1150
01:23:56,038 --> 01:24:01,018
I just can't get on board with Omegaverse with men specifically.

1151
01:24:01,458 --> 01:24:05,278
I'm sorry the men having a baby through their genitals.

1152
01:24:05,278 --> 01:24:09,738
I just can't quite figure out if it exists.

1153
01:24:10,158 --> 01:24:12,498
And Hudson William knows about it.

1154
01:24:12,498 --> 01:24:13,478
But,

1155
01:24:16,154 --> 01:24:19,234
Anyway, anyway, all right.

1156
01:24:19,534 --> 01:24:21,114
Last round here.

1157
01:24:21,114 --> 01:24:22,694
Declan, what do you pick?

1158
01:24:22,890 --> 01:24:24,383
Mmmmm

1159
01:24:25,466 --> 01:24:28,226
Do you remember them all or do you need me to reiterate R?

1160
01:24:28,754 --> 01:24:31,162
Reminder, I'll pick one out as you're talking.

1161
01:24:32,216 --> 01:24:41,914
Okay, what's still left is friends to lovers, fake dating slash marriage of convenience,
retiring from hockey, secret marriage of convenience, okay.

1162
01:24:41,914 --> 01:24:43,367
a magic convenience.

1163
01:24:44,588 --> 01:24:45,469
Me too.

1164
01:24:45,469 --> 01:24:46,599
This one's so cute.

1165
01:24:46,599 --> 01:24:47,559
Okay.

1166
01:24:47,580 --> 01:24:51,782
This one is called the game plan by FestiveFerret.

1167
01:24:52,323 --> 01:25:00,008
And the summary is, Shane Hollander is the number two overall NHL draft pick and a newly
minted Montreal Voyager.

1168
01:25:00,008 --> 01:25:04,710
He's also laser focused on his goals, being the best by beating the best.

1169
01:25:04,710 --> 01:25:11,134
For him, that means continued rivalry with number one draft pick, the new Ottawa Centaur,
Ilya Roushanov.

1170
01:25:11,278 --> 01:25:18,822
But when a problem with Rosanoff's immigration paperwork threatens his future in the NHL,
what does that mean for Shane's own career?

1171
01:25:18,822 --> 01:25:20,502
He can't risk finding out.

1172
01:25:20,502 --> 01:25:21,983
So they get married.

1173
01:25:21,983 --> 01:25:26,605
Just for immigration, a fast, practical, mutually beneficial solution.

1174
01:25:26,605 --> 01:25:32,748
No one will ever know, let alone uh suspect, and the NHL's greatest rivals are secretly
married.

1175
01:25:32,748 --> 01:25:35,230
And there's certainly no risk of feelings getting involved.

1176
01:25:35,230 --> 01:25:36,840
They have a game plan.

1177
01:25:39,916 --> 01:25:47,792
Yeah, so Shane, this is so Shane to me because he's like, I can only be the best if I'm
against the best.

1178
01:25:47,792 --> 01:25:52,557
And if you're gonna get kicked out, I guess I have to marry you for my career.

1179
01:25:53,223 --> 01:25:56,963
I already predicted the plot before you even spoke.

1180
01:25:56,963 --> 01:25:59,443
And yes, I would read that 110%.

1181
01:25:59,443 --> 01:26:06,023
Yeah, if I seen that in an audible store, I would buy it.

1182
01:26:08,442 --> 01:26:09,052
It's so good.

1183
01:26:09,052 --> 01:26:10,062
It's so good.

1184
01:26:10,062 --> 01:26:11,693
To read a couple quick things here.

1185
01:26:11,693 --> 01:26:20,145
So the major divergences from canon, other than it being a fake marriage, is Ilya starts
with the centaurs instead of um Boston.

1186
01:26:20,145 --> 01:26:22,246
Scott has already come out.

1187
01:26:22,246 --> 01:26:24,346
uh Troy does one.

1188
01:26:24,346 --> 01:26:25,537
We don't care about Troy here.

1189
01:26:25,537 --> 01:26:29,087
Yuna loves the centaurs.

1190
01:26:29,868 --> 01:26:33,169
New York, and then there's some stuff about legalities of like why.

1191
01:26:33,169 --> 01:26:38,350
uh They have him in Canada so that it can be like a Canada citizenship instead of.

1192
01:26:38,756 --> 01:26:39,456
the United States.

1193
01:26:39,456 --> 01:26:41,067
So, mm-hmm.

1194
01:26:41,067 --> 01:26:43,968
But this one's good, too.

1195
01:26:44,729 --> 01:26:49,690
Because it has something to do with like their marriage is still legally recorded.

1196
01:26:50,051 --> 01:26:55,593
So if anyone should suspect and start looking stuff up, they could find this.

1197
01:26:55,593 --> 01:27:00,295
So that's kind of the threat in them is like, why would anyone suspect they're married?

1198
01:27:00,295 --> 01:27:00,855
Who knows?

1199
01:27:00,855 --> 01:27:05,157
But if they may, they could find this and then what would happen?

1200
01:27:05,157 --> 01:27:08,278
So what do think, Sylvan?

1201
01:27:09,697 --> 01:27:16,222
Oh okay I'm gonna be controversial here and I'm gonna say I'm not going to pick this one
up.

1202
01:27:16,222 --> 01:27:19,785
It feels like a bad J-Lo Romcom.

1203
01:27:22,769 --> 01:27:25,231
It just doesn't do it for me.

1204
01:27:26,212 --> 01:27:28,474
I mean, I hear you, Jacklin.

1205
01:27:28,474 --> 01:27:32,157
I hear you, but we agree on a lot of things on this podcast.

1206
01:27:32,157 --> 01:27:43,515
JLo romcoms are not one, apart from her early work, but it just feels like a second
generation JLo romcom that Julia Roberts passed on.

1207
01:27:44,128 --> 01:27:45,339
Yeah.

1208
01:27:45,339 --> 01:27:50,154
What's funny too is I, those of you listening, Sylvan kind of made this list of tags.

1209
01:27:50,154 --> 01:27:58,846
I added a few in myself and this is the only one that even closely resembled a fake dating
or marriage of convenience for me to be able to put here.

1210
01:27:58,846 --> 01:28:00,825
I mean, this is a marriage of convenience.

1211
01:28:00,825 --> 01:28:02,307
That's literally what it is.

1212
01:28:02,307 --> 01:28:05,106
But I just don't read that in this pairing.

1213
01:28:05,106 --> 01:28:05,974
in...

1214
01:28:05,974 --> 01:28:08,776
in this pairing, like I don't need them to be fake dating.

1215
01:28:08,776 --> 01:28:10,096
They can be secretly dating.

1216
01:28:10,096 --> 01:28:13,694
I don't need them to be fake dating because that doesn't make sense in my brain.

1217
01:28:13,694 --> 01:28:15,099
I loved this one.

1218
01:28:15,099 --> 01:28:16,560
That's why I have it here.

1219
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:23,684
But it's not the same convention as a normal fake dating because normally a fake dating
you want to be seen dating.

1220
01:28:23,684 --> 01:28:28,667
And this one is the marriage of convenience part where it's supposed to be a fake
marriage, but like it's secret.

1221
01:28:28,667 --> 01:28:33,420
So it's kind of the opposite of what a fake dating is anyway, because I just don't read
those for Shane and Ilya.

1222
01:28:33,420 --> 01:28:34,104
don't.

1223
01:28:34,104 --> 01:28:37,845
need them to be fake dating, I want them to be real together.

1224
01:28:37,845 --> 01:28:39,809
But it was good still.

1225
01:28:40,555 --> 01:28:44,165
Who knew Jen would cause our first official argument, Eckland?

1226
01:28:44,530 --> 01:28:46,646
falling out, the divorce.

1227
01:28:46,946 --> 01:28:47,360
it.

1228
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:48,820
That's it, we're done.

1229
01:28:50,702 --> 01:28:53,523
Okay, so I'm gonna go, last pick.

1230
01:28:53,683 --> 01:28:58,884
I'm would like to defer to you, Jen, so you get to pick the last one.

1231
01:28:59,679 --> 01:29:03,112
Ooh, my gosh, this is so difficult.

1232
01:29:03,293 --> 01:29:04,274
This is so difficult.

1233
01:29:04,274 --> 01:29:07,177
Okay, hold on, let me look through my little list here.

1234
01:29:11,221 --> 01:29:15,042
Okay, I'm laughing so hard.

1235
01:29:15,042 --> 01:29:19,713
I wanna pick one that is from the, uh like, what the fuck category.

1236
01:29:19,713 --> 01:29:20,714
You guys know I did.

1237
01:29:20,714 --> 01:29:22,084
Well, not what the fuck.

1238
01:29:22,084 --> 01:29:25,585
This one is it fits nothing, but this one isn't a painful one.

1239
01:29:25,585 --> 01:29:30,226
I made that category just to sound cute, but it's one that it fits in nothing.

1240
01:29:30,546 --> 01:29:31,607
But let's see what you think.

1241
01:29:31,607 --> 01:29:39,469
This fic is called, come on, is called Shane Hollander is dating a nice man from Montreal.

1242
01:29:41,777 --> 01:29:43,428
Let me redo the blurb of this one here.

1243
01:29:43,428 --> 01:29:54,053
This is by tricky snail and it says this Shane Hollander has a secret boyfriend, but it's
not Ilya Rozenov That's for the best though because Shane's boyfriend is absolutely

1244
01:29:54,053 --> 01:30:03,507
perfect on paper He's also completely on board with the need to keep their relationship a
secret and keep it out of the press and avoid ruffling any Feathers there's only one

1245
01:30:03,507 --> 01:30:05,007
problem with Shane's boyfriend.

1246
01:30:05,007 --> 01:30:07,128
He's not Ilya Rozenov

1247
01:30:10,236 --> 01:30:11,236
Oh no.

1248
01:30:11,370 --> 01:30:12,864
I'll tell you more details in a moment.

1249
01:30:12,864 --> 01:30:19,022
But tell me what you think This is a really short one too, yeah

1250
01:30:19,022 --> 01:30:19,296
one?

1251
01:30:19,296 --> 01:30:20,236
picking

1252
01:30:21,131 --> 01:30:21,489
What?

1253
01:30:21,489 --> 01:30:23,034
Or the cheating one?

1254
01:30:25,281 --> 01:30:36,075
Mmm, I mean kind of I know that sounds a word to say kind of they have an open
relationship though um Like which I know I don't like those either Declan I see you I see

1255
01:30:36,075 --> 01:30:40,347
you I'm gonna tell you more details in a sec But off your initial thing you can be honest.

1256
01:30:40,347 --> 01:30:43,869
I'm not trying to win you over That's why this is in the it fits nothing category.

1257
01:30:43,869 --> 01:30:45,091
Just tell me what you think

1258
01:30:45,091 --> 01:30:46,609
them cheating on each other.

1259
01:30:47,634 --> 01:30:48,604
I know.

1260
01:30:49,619 --> 01:30:50,431
I can't do it.

1261
01:30:50,431 --> 01:30:53,987
Well, Shane and Ilya aren't cheating on each other, by the way.

1262
01:30:54,109 --> 01:30:56,634
They maybe cheat on Bozo over

1263
01:30:56,634 --> 01:30:57,194
cheating.

1264
01:30:57,194 --> 01:30:58,134
She's cheating.

1265
01:30:58,134 --> 01:30:59,174
It's not nice.

1266
01:31:00,203 --> 01:31:01,242
totally understand.

1267
01:31:01,242 --> 01:31:07,567
It's like, I will read the darkest shit, like the darkest dark romances out there, but see
if anybody is cheating on someone.

1268
01:31:07,567 --> 01:31:10,889
I'm like, trash, go to the trash, I don't want this book anymore.

1269
01:31:10,889 --> 01:31:11,969
Go away.

1270
01:31:12,622 --> 01:31:13,971
I draw the line at that.

1271
01:31:13,971 --> 01:31:16,392
Murder and torture are all you want, I don't care.

1272
01:31:16,413 --> 01:31:18,404
Cheating, I draw the line.

1273
01:31:20,527 --> 01:31:24,511
I wanna hear Sylvan's ranking and then I'll tell you the detail that made me read it.

1274
01:31:24,511 --> 01:31:27,173
Cause I hate cheating as well.

1275
01:31:27,413 --> 01:31:36,424
It is my hard red line in the sand, but there's a thing I'm holding back that I think you
might like it, but it's all right.

1276
01:31:36,424 --> 01:31:43,487
So I'm going to pick this but not because of the reasons both of you have picked it.

1277
01:31:43,487 --> 01:31:54,470
I'm not picking this up, not because of the cheating per se, but to me it just seems
rather middle of the road, kinda vague, kinda meh.

1278
01:31:54,530 --> 01:31:59,552
Like this is a story we've heard before, like this doesn't get me excited.

1279
01:32:01,292 --> 01:32:12,773
Mm-hmm Yeah, no, that's totally fair so on I got I get most my wrecks on threads Just cuz
they that is where they will gush about fanfics over there So what got me to read it was

1280
01:32:12,773 --> 01:32:18,733
number one the title was great because of course it picks up from like couldn't you have
needed a nice man from or doesn't know I'm true.

1281
01:32:18,733 --> 01:32:27,807
I've nice man Well, guess what this guy this jerk Everyone in Shane's life thinks he's
lame the people who know

1282
01:32:27,807 --> 01:32:29,678
So again, like he's been dating this.

1283
01:32:29,678 --> 01:32:34,570
So the impetus of this one is that Shane and Elia never did that commercial together.

1284
01:32:34,570 --> 01:32:47,476
They actually hired an actor to be like Shane was with an actor to do it who uh and so he
ended up like falling for this guy instead kind of and it's been kept a secret but his

1285
01:32:47,476 --> 01:32:50,508
parents know and like Hayden and Jackie know.

1286
01:32:50,508 --> 01:32:53,939
And the thing that got me to read this is that.

1287
01:32:54,333 --> 01:33:06,070
Hayden and Jackie conspire with Ilya to get him to ask Shane out because in this one
Ilya's out as bisexual and they see the chemistry between them and they're like Ilya we

1288
01:33:06,070 --> 01:33:07,781
need you to get him away from this guy.

1289
01:33:07,781 --> 01:33:19,949
This guy is such a jerk and Ilya who's secretly had a crush on Shane is like oh so it also
has the tag Ilya Rosanoff is a menace that's the other tag in this one that's holding back

1290
01:33:19,949 --> 01:33:21,129
and so

1291
01:33:21,225 --> 01:33:26,619
because Shane has an open relationship with this guy who mostly is so the other guy can
fuck whoever he wants.

1292
01:33:26,619 --> 01:33:28,991
Shane doesn't have time to fuck whoever he wants.

1293
01:33:28,991 --> 01:33:31,272
He isn't looking at hockey players.

1294
01:33:31,272 --> 01:33:31,953
He's not.

1295
01:33:31,953 --> 01:33:38,097
But then Ilja starts flirting with him with the blessing of Hayden and Jackie.

1296
01:33:39,458 --> 01:33:48,024
And Hayden is like, I cannot believe this that I am backing Ilja Rosenoff to flirt with my
friend, but I need him to get away from this asshole.

1297
01:33:48,024 --> 01:33:49,577
So it is literally like

1298
01:33:49,577 --> 01:33:53,995
all the people behind the scenes being like, ill yeah, ill yeah, ill yeah.

1299
01:33:53,995 --> 01:33:55,420
And it's fantastic.

1300
01:33:55,420 --> 01:33:55,838
So.

1301
01:33:55,838 --> 01:33:59,392
I can I change my answer to cautiously intrigued now?

1302
01:33:59,392 --> 01:34:00,834
Because I'm here for it.

1303
01:34:00,834 --> 01:34:03,096
This is a two thousands rom com.

1304
01:34:03,165 --> 01:34:04,054
Yeah.

1305
01:34:04,054 --> 01:34:05,195
it is.

1306
01:34:05,195 --> 01:34:06,316
And it's so cute.

1307
01:34:06,316 --> 01:34:07,807
And again, this one's really short.

1308
01:34:07,807 --> 01:34:11,280
It's only, think, like it works out to like 140 pages.

1309
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:19,366
And it's funny too, because then she hated at one point, it's like, I didn't think about
what it would be like to now have Ilya be his boyfriend.

1310
01:34:19,366 --> 01:34:26,251
But we've started the machine rolling and we just have to deal with it now.

1311
01:34:27,013 --> 01:34:27,993
But it's great.

1312
01:34:27,993 --> 01:34:29,054
It's great.

1313
01:34:29,054 --> 01:34:31,135
So anyway, I love this one.

1314
01:34:31,957 --> 01:34:32,777
Like

1315
01:34:32,777 --> 01:34:38,873
One of the tags, sorry one more thing, is Hayden Pike helps Ilya Rosanoff commit a
boyfriend heist.

1316
01:34:38,873 --> 01:34:40,715
That's how specific the whole tag is.

1317
01:34:40,715 --> 01:34:43,031
called it that boyfriend heist.

1318
01:34:44,158 --> 01:34:44,974
Great.

1319
01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:50,028
Jen I had so much fun playing that game.

1320
01:34:50,028 --> 01:34:54,450
Like genuinely, we could turn that into an actual episode in itself.

1321
01:34:54,450 --> 01:35:02,972
Um and that was just such a fun way to explore some of the fanfics that we might not be
exposed to because of our searches and things like that.

1322
01:35:02,972 --> 01:35:03,752
So that was lovely.

1323
01:35:03,752 --> 01:35:05,633
Thank you for thinking of that.

1324
01:35:05,734 --> 01:35:06,707
You're so welcome.

1325
01:35:06,707 --> 01:35:07,941
It was so fun.

1326
01:35:07,941 --> 01:35:11,529
And yeah, I'll send you over all the links for the ones we talked about.

1327
01:35:11,991 --> 01:35:12,833
Amazing.

1328
01:35:12,833 --> 01:35:18,267
And if anyone is looking for more of your content, where can people find you on socials,
Jen?

1329
01:35:18,916 --> 01:35:24,273
Yeah, I am the book refuge on both YouTube, Instagram, and threads.

1330
01:35:24,273 --> 01:35:25,275
So come on over.

1331
01:35:25,275 --> 01:35:30,622
I'm always sharing my Hollander recommendations as well as, you know, regular romance and
stuff.

1332
01:35:30,622 --> 01:35:31,783
I read that too.

1333
01:35:31,783 --> 01:35:33,745
So come on over.

1334
01:35:35,178 --> 01:35:38,311
well, a big thank you to Jen for joining us.

1335
01:35:38,311 --> 01:35:39,800
We had a really, really great time.

1336
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:44,956
I had such a fun time with this episode, especially the game at the end was really fun.

1337
01:35:44,956 --> 01:35:48,078
um But that's all we have time for today.

1338
01:35:48,078 --> 01:35:50,520
um Again, thank you so much.

1339
01:35:50,899 --> 01:35:57,125
For our viewers who are tuning in, we do this once a week, so it's every Sunday.

1340
01:35:57,208 --> 01:36:00,968
At the minute, we are also going through the Heat at Rivalry book.

1341
01:36:01,732 --> 01:36:11,758
So, Sullivan hasn't actually read the whole thing yet, so we've been doing it through
parts and we're moving on to part four, I believe, m of the book.

1342
01:36:11,758 --> 01:36:13,369
yeah, we're having lots of fun with that.

1343
01:36:13,369 --> 01:36:17,541
So tune in next week if that's what you're looking to hear more about.

1344
01:36:17,562 --> 01:36:25,166
And also we have a fable to a book club in which we are reading through the Heat of
Rivalry series, the Game Changer series by Rachel Reed.

1345
01:36:25,166 --> 01:36:27,258
And we're actually on the long game now.

1346
01:36:27,258 --> 01:36:27,994
So.

1347
01:36:27,994 --> 01:36:35,909
You can always go back and check out the previous discussions from the books we've already
been through, but we are finishing up with that soon.

1348
01:36:35,909 --> 01:36:42,224
However, we're moving on to a new series after that, which is the Puckboy series by Eden
Finlay and Saxon James.

1349
01:36:42,224 --> 01:36:46,737
So if that's on your interest in some more hockey romance, then try that out with us.

1350
01:36:46,878 --> 01:36:47,979
But yeah, that's us.

1351
01:36:47,979 --> 01:36:52,622
Like, subscribe and comment and share with your friends if you think it's something they
might enjoy.

1352
01:36:52,622 --> 01:36:54,593
But we'll see you all next week.