Hi everyone.
Welcome to Long Game, a Heated Rivalry podcast.
My name is Sylvan and I'm joined by Daclan.
And we are joined with Jen from the Book Refuge for our part two into Heated Rivalry fanfiction and AO three.
So thank you so much for joining us again, Jen.
I'm so excited to be here.
This is the best part of the week for me.
I'm so happy.
We had so many lovely comments from last week's video.
And if anyone's just sort of joining us in part two, be sure to go back, listen to part one, because Jen breaks it down and gives me an education on all things fanfiction, all
things AO3 and Wattpad.
So it was such an informative way to for me to sort of get immersed into it and understand that I wasn't the only one.
There were so many comments about
how other people, you know, had been fan fiction sort of readers for many, many years and some people were just starting out like me.
So it was such, such a lovely conversation to have and to sort of bring this up.
Yeah, yeah.
It's it surprises me how far back it goes.
You know, there's a there's a lot of people who've been reading fanfic since the very beginning of it.
And I mean, I've been reading it for six years now and I'm still like, wow, people were reading this when they like sent it to each other back and forth.
Like before like before the internet people were reading fanfic and sending it to one another, which is amazing.
And so just to recap then, from episode one, you know, we talked a lot about sort of the culture around fan fiction.
And this time what we're going to do in episode two is really get into the actual stories that people love and people are writing.
exciting.
We did all our homework last time.
Exactly.
So now we get to have fun with it.
And so one of the things that I was thinking about after our conversation last week, Jen, was, you know, what are the big stories and big tropes in Heated Rivalry specifically?
So one of the things that I did to try to like think about how to encapsulate this because it actually is really difficult to narrow it down to anything because when we use the word
trope to me that's you know the enemies to lovers, rivals to lovers, sports, mm romance.
Like to me that's what tropes are and you know that's how we might make lists of heated rivalry ends up on an mm romance list or on a
hockey list but you know the tag system that we talked about last week that's more how a03 breaks things up is by those tags because that's what people are generally looking for
when they're going to find one they already know it's gonna be a rivals to lovers it's gonna be hockey it's gonna be mm unless it's an au with an alternative universe as we'll
get into but I did pull up the top 10 tags
that are associated with Heat of Vibory.
And I thought we could maybe I'll list those off for you guys.
em And what's funny is that a lot of uh fan fiction is very specific because that's what we are looking for.
So some of these will seem like, that's sweet.
And some of them are like, OK, we felt the need to list that.
And you'll see what I mean in just a second.
So what you can do with into AO3,
once you filter to, as I mentioned last time, there's 35,000 Heated Rivalry fanfics currently.
That includes one's boat.
Declan, maybe this is news to you.
Yes.
Yes, and that's on the small end.
Yeah, that's on the low end.
It is going up all the time.
That does include things with crossovers.
It includes ones that are one shot.
So let's say they're only thousand words or
They're even just one scene someone wanted to write from a different angle or something like that.
uh But in general, all of those that are under Heated Rivalry TV and the Game Changers, there's 35,000 of them.
The top 10 tags within that are, Ilya Rozhanov loves Shane Hollander, of course.
It's gonna be tagged that way, very cute.
Shane Hollander loves Ilya Rozhanov.
Though I will say there is uh significantly less
that are tagged as Shane loves Ilya.
So I don't know what people are trying to say with that, but I think there's some equal love that should be going around.
The next one is a tag that you will find within every fan fiction and that is simply fluff, which means nothing too angsty is going to happen there.
There's the alternative universe tag or canon divergence tag.
Same thing.
The hurt comfort tag is a good amount.
Um, here we go.
I'm going to say it.
The next tag is anal sex.
So got to know we're getting our explicit ones in there.
The next tag is autistic Shane Hollander.
The next one is married Shane Hollander slash Ilja Roosenoff.
Then there's angst.
And then the final one, because again, people like to be very specific is bottom Shane Hollander.
So those are the 10 tags that get separated out.
So you can see it's weird how fan fiction does things, but if you really want to make sure.
That sheen's the bottom and that thick, there's a take for it.
If you're really worried about it staying that way.
those are the content.
Declan's reactions to these.
What are you thinking right now, Declan?
So eh I I'm getting an idea of why you want fanfiction because you can fulfill a very specific fantasy that you have about characters in your head.
and obviously the fun of writing it as well, you can do like self-inserts, you can like you can make yourself part of that world.
So you can in a way that you want the characters to play out and fulfill the fantasy that you have.
And that's really fun, actually.
That's really creative.
Um, but in terms of like the tags themselves, when you said Ilya loves Shane and then the least popular one is the Shane loves Ilya, that makes sense to me.
So it does like that makes sense to me because at the moment I'm rereading the long game, and the more that I'm reading it and the more that I'm getting the character's
perspectives and revisiting the story with a bit more knowledge.
Yep.
That's that checks out with me a hundred percent.
Ilya is the romantic, a hundred and ten percent.
Shane is the the swooner who's enjoying being doted upon, but Ilya's the romantic a hundred percent.
So the tags make sense to me, I think.
Yes, let me just clarify it quick too.
It's not a significant difference.
There's 9,300 of Ilya first and there's 8,000 of Shane first.
And oftentimes people don't even feel the need to put that tag because they're doing an Ilya slash Shane fanfic.
So it's implied, right?
Out of 35,000 having the top two tags be that.
Like most people don't have to put that because it's a slash fiction as is.
But yeah, definitely the ones that say Ilya loves Shane, they are being more romantic ones.
And uh I don't think we talked about this last time, but it is believed that about 80 to 90 % of fanfic authors today are female presenting or female desiring.
So that also maybe makes sense.
That is anecdotal for me.
I got it from one of the references that is in the previous, but that is what it's believed.
So maybe that makes sense.
Why where?
Why do you think that is?
I have a theory.
So
venture no thoughts on it.
I just am recounting.
I think in general, women are more drawn to literacy and in particular the romance genre, that's like statistical fact.
Um, so it doesn't surprise me that they then go on to want to write fan fiction and to delve more into the romance and the yearning and to create the sort of romantic scenario
that they want to see.
Um, but that also translates to authors as well, because a lot of MM romance authors start off as fan fiction writers.
And then they begin writing their own original content and then that turns into published content then.
And so this is why there's such a large volume of female writers who are doing MM romance books, because they are coming from that background.
They're coming from like the fan fiction background, the AO3 background, where they've written these stories, they've been really good at it, and then they've turned it into
like a published work.
So it doesn't surprise me that that's
That's like a thing now, that's that that's come of that.
Well, the other side of it too, and this is something we weren't able to get into last time, but I think it'll be great here is that, you know, it is uh wildly shown that the
very first like fanfic in the modern sense was Spock slash Kirk fanfic that started it off.
uh It was written literally in fanzines and it was written and mailed to each other.
And I just
being honest, I don't see a lot of men taking the time to write that type of fic and sending it to their pals to read it.
uh Maybe I'm making some assumptions, uh so please call me on my bias if I'm wrong.
But it really does seem to the realm of women wanting to share something with their friends who start writing a thing and are like, want these two men to kiss and let's write
some fic about it.
but it also was very much encouraged and accepted by that property back then.
There was even some of the, I don't want to say the actors, but people involved with the Star Trek show that definitely played into it.
And they would even guest write in some of these fanzines that got put out back then.
Again, that is all in the references from last week on that series that uh Joanne Bearup did.
That just floored me, floored me.
And I believe it is even like uh Peter Capaldi who played a doctor.
He wrote fanfic about Doctor Who when he was younger.
uh So this really was a much more accepted thing until really, as I mentioned last time, know, Disney kind of stepped in and really started pushing people away from doing that
because they wanted to protect their IPs.
When fanfic authors, weren't trying to take over the IPs.
They just wanted to have fun, but they were doing it for free.
And when you're doing it for free.
and not paying for it.
They really fucking hate that, you know?
So it's fascinating.
And that makes sense as to what both of you were saying, because when you think about these fan fictions and how they started and continued and grew, it almost feels like a
community.
And for me, when I've been around my female friends and
female writers, that's where I got that sense of community.
There was this shared experience there.
Whereas and I haven't experienced this with as much with with male friends or male writers.
So if it is the case, please tell us.
But it it kind of checks out that the women would have a sense of community and sharing around them.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, my community is literally 98 % women based on the demographics people are willing to share.
So that's no surprise to me at all.
um It's honestly, if it isn't gay or queer men involved, I wouldn't have been involved in this stuff at all either.
I think I've had only one man in all the years I've done it say that he was straight and that he liked romance in my community.
um And granted, my, you know, I've only added
gay romance in about six years ago.
So it would make sense to that.
But even outside of that, have a couple and I've had a couple through the years with my who like Outlander because that's not solely a romance focused.
But yeah, I mean that tracks for my community at least anyway.
So I don't I mean, and unless they're married straight men, I just haven't seen men really involved in it at all anyway, which it's like crazy because I'm like dudes.
You want to meet some women, like get into reading romance.
I'm telling you, we've seen how easily some less than savory men are able to co-op the romance community when they tap into romance.
And it's kind of disgusting.
So I wish we'd have some more decent ones be interested in it.
Yeah, think that's pretty standard across the board when it comes to romance.
think a lot of straight men in particular don't want to be seen to be reading it because they're perceived to be gay, which is literally anything to do with a female interest or
anything that or female dominated interest.
They just don't want to look at it just at the risk of being misidentified or
having their sexuality called on the question.
It's a real, I suppose it's a bit of insecurity, but I can understand the fear that, you know, the fear of reprisal or something coming back to them for enjoying something.
But I think as gay men, we're able to set aside that and just enjoy something for what it is because we're not feeling insecure of our sexuality anymore.
We're, we've done the work we've put in.
probably too much work than we ever had to.
But just as a result of society, we had to figure it out and it all had to be a whole big thing.
But now the big thing's figured out and we feel confident in enjoying our interests, regardless of whether or not they're perceived as masculine or feminine.
So yeah, it's unfortunate because it's such an enjoyable genre and there's so much fun to be had in it.
And also really good role modeling for relationships if you're reading the right books and for...
ideas to be romantic for your partner as well.
Like it's basically like a guide into what a woman wants out of a romantic relationship and you're just like not there to receive it.
Like that's stupid.
I know.
So can I ask then if there are straight men listening and they're like, you know what?
I'm gonna try a romance, which ones would either of you say is a good starter point?
It doesn't have to be MM.
Yes, I have some thoughts on this, but first I want to piggyback off of what Declan said because the thing I think that straight men miss about it is that they think that it's
going to be filled with unrealistic expectations of men when the things that women swoon over in romances are the most basic ass bitch stuff to do, like buy her flowers, rub her
feet, cuddle her in bed.
buy her a book, like, and then you can go to, you know what I mean?
Like they think it's all about like what the sexual prowess in the book is, which of course they would think that, cause there may be like, why does my woman like this?
What am I doing wrong?
But it's like the things we spoon over in books are the most normal ass stuff.
It's not like we're asking you to have wings.
Okay, that is not what I love about what happens in a fantasy romance, okay?
So anyway, just wanted to make that comment too, is I think they're afraid that they'll start feeling inferior.
And I'm like, unless you're treating your woman like dirt, really, we're not asking you to live up to much.
So that's it, that's it.
Thank
really not that deep.
But as for romances for men to start with, mean...
that's so difficult because I think it's as it can be so basic like to start with what you're interested in.
That's how I tell to get anyone into reading.
I'm like if the dude like sports try a sports romance.
If you like um I don't know what to think of NASCAR or writing there's a romance with it.
If you like history.
I mean I love the romance and Outlander and those aren't even romance books and that's how a lot of men I think have tried reading those ones and then being like wow there's like
fighting and uh
drinking and all this stuff.
And I'm like, yeah, and then the romance is my favorite romance of all time, but it's not a romance.
So I don't think it always has to be like go to the romance section of Barnes and Noble to get this, you uh I think there's plenty of mainstream fantasy books that have a good
romance in them.
think romantic is a good gateway for men to enjoy it.
actually discussed this on a previous episode of this podcast as well.
One point that what Akatar in particular did really well was to get all these girls and their boyfriends to read this book because they wanted to know what the hype was.
They wanted to know what they were reading, what the obsession was.
And then you see these guys pick it up.
You know, it's a little bit of a joke and we're running through and they're giving their thoughts, but then they're like,
hiring through the next books and they need to know what happens and they get so invested.
I think that has done a lot to introduce men to the idea of romantic.
Mm.
Yeah, fourth wing too, that one's great.
this is my problem with romance to see a lot is that the percentage of actual smut in those books is so low.
So they're great ones to start with because they've been told this perception that, my God, what's your woman reading?
Like getting all this stuff and then they get into it and like, I haven't even gotten to any sex yet.
And I'm like, yeah, because romance is more than just sex.
Don't know who has to bang that in your head.
But yeah, they're fighting with dragons and you know.
killing people and shit and then they also have telepathic sex when their dragons have sex.
Yeah, that gets a bit weird.
We won't look at it too hard.
you know, like
Yeah, and I'm I'm wondering if there is a difference between sort of a male or a female gaze in terms of whether they're interested in sort of the emotional intimacy or if
they're more driven by plot, for example.
Hmm
I know, I couldn't speak to that.
only have a female gaze, so love to know what you think, Declan, if you've read.
Have you read Some Romanticie, or do you?
um
I will.
I exclusively read romance books and I've read like the big ones as well.
I've read Forth Wing.
I've read all of Akatar um and some other ones as well.
So I think.
It's.
In terms of plot, it's really down to the preference of the person.
think like some people like plot heavy books.
I like plot heavy books.
I like plot to facilitate character growth.
I like it to be intertwined with one another and I like it to flow sort of seamlessly.
A lot of the books I read um are more sort of relationship driven where they will set aside like 60 % of the book to focus just on building this relationship.
and having these characters like spend time together and having cute little moments together rather than like intertwining the growth of the relationship with the plot so
that you have stuff happening alongside their growing sort of thing and they have events that naturally occur that bring them closer together.
um So I like a lot of plot in my books because I think it helps with building like emotional stakes and stuff.
m But not everyone does.
Everyone, some people like the focus on
the intimacy on the romance on the um sort of relationship aspects and growing of the sort of romance between the two characters.
um But I find it slow for pacing and things like that.
And while some people might prefer that, I prefer song that's a bit more plot heavy.
think it makes more sense when you're trying to tell a full story.
I think, yeah, I think it all depends on...
because for me, because I only read romance as well, people can say Outlander isn't.
It is.
So I only read romance.
uh But I'll read it of all types.
And for me, where fantasy often bores me, romance often bores me, is if you don't give me enough emotional buy-in before you...
Well not before because yes you have to start setting up a world and get into it but if you don't give me the seeds of what I'm gonna need when you go on a know an exposition
gallivant I'm tuning out if I don't care about the character so there needs to be an signing incident first for me even if it's not for both partners and what the couple what
the couple's gonna be yet I need to be locked onto a character before I'm gonna go through because then I'm like why do I care about the exposition?
If I don't care about the character who's living in this scenario, then I don't care what world you're trying to introduce me to.
you know, just as an example, because I know you said you read Akitar, I immediately know how this person feels.
She's poor, trying to feed her family, going on this, you know, journey through the woods to, you know, slay some food.
I immediately care about her, even though...
we still have a lot of her character to fill in later.
Like starting with something that grips me on it, I care about her and I care about who she ends up falling in love with, especially because that one's a first person point of
view book too.
So I care about who she's falling in love with um or him, right?
An example to, um you have to have, maybe I'm wrong, but you've read Talbauer, right?
Dethlin, have you read some of him?
yeah, yeah, I hope, yeah, yeah.
uh He does that in my favorite book, You and Me.
I immediately care about the main POV character, his desperation to be close with his son and he's willing to go through whatever hoops he has to to fix that relationship.
I'm immediately emotionally locked in with him and that's a pretty simple story.
um But he immediately makes me love that man.
I would die for him.
And then we intrude to the love interest who's just the most perfect ball of sunshine that's ever existed.
I'm here for it.
That is a mostly pretty low angst book in the romance.
His relationship with his son, that is where the angst is at and where it's just going to put you through a meat grinder.
But that's a completely different thing of like then you're desperate for food and could die and you need to feed your family.
But they both still make me care about that character within the first chapter.
I'm hooked.
And that's what I think good authors do.
And I also think that when it comes to Sarah J.
Maas, the shit that she gets for them being
not well read.
I'm like, do you know how many people started reading because of this woman?
You can take your criticism and keep it to yourself because it has never needed to be the highest levels of literature that get people excited about romance or about uh romanticity
or any of those things.
And it's not because those books are bad.
They're an easy entry point.
And that does not make something low brow at all.
So anyway.
Yeah, yeah, like, I agree with you in that sense that the idea that these need to be like literary masterpieces, like it's just not true.
mean, I have my ranking system whenever I'm reviewing books.
Basically, I'm looking for what the offer set out to do.
What is the offer's like mission here?
Like what kind of story they trying to tell and how well are they telling it?
Like, am I invested?
Am I enjoying it?
Is the pacing good?
Is the plot well thought out?
Is it creative?
Are the characters believable?
Do they have story arcs?
Like, are they different from the beginning as they are towards the end?
if you can achieve that within your book and within it to the point where I'm like, wow, I really love this and it just works, it's well written, it just feels blowing and it's
nice.
Five stars.
I'll give you five stars in the same way that I would give Romeo and Juliet five stars.
Like they...
Is one maybe objectively more literary, important and inspirational or whatever?
Yes, but we're not really discussing that.
What I'm trying to do is give a review on the enjoyment of the book that I read and how I felt that the author carried that vision out.
And in that sense, I don't need a literary masterpiece.
I just need the author to deliver exactly what they wanted to and in the best way that they could.
And that's where I do my rankings.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm a heart, I'm right by the heart and how much I cry basically is for everything.
Like if I gave it a book six stars on my ranking, it's because I cried.
And uh yes, I cry easily, I cry often, uh but that's beautiful to me because you're making me feel the emotion of the characters and that's that part of like what did the author set
out to do.
uh And yeah, it's...
It's also to what makes a classic.
Sure, there are people who study that, but a lot of it is just time too and what sticks around and what people read.
So if we could look 300 years into the future, which of our books now will still be around?
And we'll be thinking they're the ancient texts that classes are taught off of and everything.
um Will that be fourth wing?
Who knows?
Okay.
I'm not quite sure, but who knows?
we never know what something will be.
And I suppose what I'm hearing from both of you is that when you've got a protagonist that you can sort of root for and get behind is where you get this buy-in, where you're
invested in the story.
And I've seen this since we spoke, Jen, in some of the fan fictions that have been published on AO3.
You know, they're written really well.
And I know I said that last week, but I just want to reiterate: they're written really well.
And so I'm wondering if.
With fan fiction specifically then, are there instances where you have an antihero where you're not necessarily rooting for them, but they still pull you into the story enough
that you want to read fifteen chapters of it?
That's interesting.
think the best example of that for me isn't going to be within Heated Rivalry because none of the ones I've read are they trying to humanize anyone like that's not happening.
It definitely is more within the HP area of like I've read Jermaini Pick and you're supposed to hate that guy and he I love him the most, you know, so it's difficult to say
that I think.
that isn't something specific to fan fiction.
I think it's more when you're able to do it with a character that's already existing as a villain, maybe you already have like backstory to work with in the same way you would if
you're doing it with the main characters, but writing more about them.
And that can be the like shortcut.
And I don't mean that in a bad way, right?
When we talk of fanfic, a lot of the AUs or that stuff, the main work is the shortcut.
That doesn't mean they might not change and, you know, now make Shane a doctor or make Ilja a coach, or we might change up like that.
But in general, they're keeping those character archetypes in place.
So then if you have a character who is maybe originally a villain, but, you know, they died early on or they just were not meant to be the focus because it's about someone else.
And then you can have a fanfic writer who's like, ooh.
I love this, I can take this set up character, but now I'm gonna make them the focus and I'm gonna make them the love interest.
What could have made them act like that in this story?
Fanfic is always the what if question.
So I hope that kind of gets to it.
think that's where I see that happening is the fanfic is a great jumping off point of what if.
And a lot of us love to fall for a villain like we just do.
Maybe not everyone.
I don't know what you'll love Sylvan outside of he did reverie for that.
But I love to fall for a villain and especially if they're not like, you know, a mass murderer to start or something like we're talking villain who's a bit complex or is the,
you know, I don't know where I'll go with that.
But I think that's the seeds of it maybe.
I mean, we were just talking about Akatara, Perfectly Sample, and that is Nesta.
Nesta gets a whole book dedicated to herself and she's literally the most unbearable character for like 90 % of the series.
But the book humanizes her in a way that is completely unexpected.
And she goes from this, she's more or less a villain.
She's not a hero, she's just an uh ant.
let's be clear.
that's basically the idea.
But the book humanizes her.
It gives her a backstory.
It gives her motivation for doing what she's actually doing and why she is the way she is and rationalizes her thoughts and the way that she behaves so that you can empathize with
her and you do truly wish her to be a happy character towards the end.
And so I suppose that would be a good example in terms of M.M.
Romance.
I don't know if you've ever read the series Sons of the Fallen by Jacqueline Osborne.
It's like this.
Romantic, contemporary fantasy that follows uh Nephilim, which are like half human, half angels, so the children of humans and angels um and each of them represent a seven deadly
son.
So like lust or greed or wrath and one of
the Nephilim, the lusts, so they each get a book.
There's been this reoccurring demon who keeps showing up.
He's the one that keeps causing trouble for everybody.
uh But in that book, you know, this is going to be a spoiler if someone wants to read it, know, skip this part.
But in Bellamy's book, he finds out that he is his destiny mate.
This evil guy, the guy that has been messing with him from the very start, he is who he's
destined to be with and so it takes this really villainous character and basically makes him into an actual antihero in which he begins to justify how he could possibly be with
this guy and the way that the offer approached it I thought was really clever it's that he's not suddenly good it's just that he cares more about this person than he does being
bad and that was such a fun journey and a fun take on an antihero but as the
books then progress after that point, he'd all slowly become more good, essentially, just by the influence of the people that he now surrounds himself with.
And through the love of this guy, he suddenly becomes a lot more sympathetic.
And I think it's just such a clever character journey.
So in terms of you know, fan fiction and things like that and how that applies, being able to take
what is a desperately bad character and turn them into something that is much more digestible as a reader and something that you can root for and you're an actor and be
like, my God, he's just misunderstood.
You're just not reading between the lines here.
I'll write it for you so that you can read between the lines exactly as I write it.
And you get to see it that way.
So yeah, yeah, it's a fun type of archetype to do fan fiction on, can imagine.
And this wet lends so well to Ilya because Ilya's the bad boy.
He's, you know, he's the one that you don't root for because he's the one that's the antagonist, especially in the books.
He riles people up.
Um, but when you watch the TV show, you see him soften and you see him through his love of shame really sort of bring out this different side to him that you don't get in the first
couple of episodes, for example.
Those are some heavy words you just said.
I'm trying to digest them all.
Calling you the villain of this.
What are you doing?
I'm gonna get hated.
But you know, between like the sunshine and the moon, Ilya is the moon and Shane is the sunshine, right?
I mean, maybe.
I think Shane is the grump and Ilya is the sunshine, so maybe.
Ooh, I like your take on that.
Hmm.
don't know, maybe that's a hot take.
Maybe that's a hot take.
like Shane is more like ordered, like can't have anything step out.
He's definitely like softer on the, some things.
But to me, Elia is like the sunshine and Shane's kind of the grump.
And then my opinion, in my opinion, I think that's a hot take, but I love this.
I would love to know what the listeners are thinking right now, like who for you is the moon and who is the sun?
Hmm, it's interesting.
think they're more like Yen and Yang where one presents a certain way, but it's darker on the inside and then the other presents in our way and they are lighter on the inside.
I think Ilya is the idea of like dark on the outside, but a lot lighter on the inside.
And Shane is the opposite.
He is sort of lighter presenting, softer presenting, but a bit darker on the inside.
But we're speaking from the knowledge of having read the entire series.
So that lends greater context to the characters.
yeah, the way no, but in Heat at Rivalry, I do think that that is the way that Rachel Reed writes it.
Ilya creates a lot of the obstacles for these two actually being more romantically involved up to a certain point in the book.
And then it shifts then and it becomes like Shane's responsibility then, like he's the one that's interfering with them possibly being together.
um But yeah, I think they interchange roles, I think.
So they do, they take turns being the antagonist and he'd arrive early anyway, definitely.
Let's say obstacle, the conflict.
Let's stop saying antagonist and villain for our boys, okay?
That's just feeling wrong in my skin.
But being the obstacle to the HEA, how about that?
Can we agree on that term?
I'm happy with that.
The conflict of the story is more on, uh yeah, Ilya in the first one, his inability to open up about things and then once he gets cracked open, he's just like spilling love out
of him and he can't hold it back inside and it's beautiful.
and Shane feels like he has something to protect now.
So then he's like holding on
Yeah.
Yeah, you can just tell Declan could be like everyone's favourite English teacher.
Right?
to keep track of what I'm talking about, listening to him go on.
I love it.
know.
And one of the things that struck me from our conversation last week, Jen, was you talked about Miracle, the fanfiction.
And you talked about this devastating plane crash, which I l very much linked to my Grey's Anatomy PHD.
And one of the things that I've been itching to ask you about since, uh about fanfiction specifically, is sort of
Why are we attracted to these types of stories?
Why are we attracted to the catastrophe and the suffering and the angst?
Does it make it more meaningful?
Are we looking for that catharsis to happen?
You know, is that more satisfying as a reader in fanfiction specifically?
Yeah.
I really had to think about this when you shared, you know, that this was something we wanted to revisit because I truly love very happy stories.
And I know people might not believe that when I start sharing some of these wrecks I have, because they all seem so angsty.
And that's in general, it takes a lot to make me want to read a more angstier story.
However, it all comes back to the fact for me is that
I only read romance, only, in anything, in the fanfic world and in everything else.
So if I'm reading a story where the premise is what Miracles premise is, but the author says, don't worry, there's an AGA, I'm like, well, what are you gonna do to them?
Like, what are you gonna do here?
But yet I know that my boys, they're still safe in their story on my shelf.
So whatever they're about to go through in this story, whatever pain that's gonna happen to them,
It's not real.
None of it's real.
Of course, I know I'm not in the psychosis.
I know it's all not real.
But in regards to what the canon story is, nothing's happening to them.
They're fine.
So what are we going to do in here?
Right.
And I think um one of the terms I ended up writing down for this is that it strengthens the bonds of the characters to me, seeing them go through different scenarios and
different situations and all the ones I love really heavily involve like
their connection only deepening through any tragic events, but they're not tragic events that in canon I want them to actually go through.
I'm like, the boys got enough going on.
We don't need actual pain and suffering and assault and harm to happen to them.
But in a AU and in a different thing, I can see these characters become even more like connected to one another.
I can see them, you know, become parents.
I could see them.
you know, be set in a totally different world, but then the story that I love is still safe on the shelf.
Nothing bad happened to them.
So that's just my perspective on it is like when I hear something has an H.E.A.
but also has a premise like that, I'm like, well, how is that author going to do it?
What are they going to do and still have an H.E.A.
at the end somehow?
And a lot of people might not feel that way about Miracle because Ilya is the only one who makes it out alive of that.
Situation him and Shane are both alive that situation.
He's only makes it out uh but it was because it was his journey to go through it and how close him and Shane become in this fic and how much the Hollanders look after him and the
parents of all the players are there for him and they just absolutely obliterate uh the Commissioner and all the Evil machinations of that stuff and that's just one example of
it.
You know, I've read 60 of them at this point.
So
It's hard because some people just hear me talking and they're like, that's ridiculous.
I don't want it.
And I'm like, great, you don't want it.
It's fine.
But to me, just, makes me appreciate the original even more.
And it also lets me go on this journey with characters I already love and I'm already ride or die for them.
And so I'm like, well, what are they going to go through today in this new version of it uh and still be safe on my shelf in their other story.
So.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I personally, I wouldn't want to read that specific event happening.
Though I do understand the idea of wanting to put the characters through something to help them grow and become closer, because essentially that's what books do anyway.
If you're reading any sort of romance book, it's pretty boring if you don't have conflict and you don't have the characters having to go through something.
um Obviously, that fanfic in particular
takes it to an extreme where like it explores, it's almost like it explores Shane's actual thoughts in that book as, don't want to spoil too much for you, but basically it's almost
like you, the idea of that fan pick is like, this is what Shane is upsetting about the idea of what could have happened.
And this is what this, this is what it looks like to him in his head.
Like, I like that idea that you're exploring a spa process.
What would happen?
What would it look like?
I would have been some full, oh my God, this is crazy.
Because he is such an anxious person that I could imagine him fully carrying out this fan fiction in his head, just not having written it down.
So yeah, it's an interesting idea.
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of where, like, I could imagine writing fan fiction because I do it in my head all the time.
Like, I can imagine
creating characters and new scenarios from TV shows and different media that I love and inserting different details and different changes and what would happen if this fellow
showed up in this arc or if they had to battle this person when they were only developing their players at this stage and just little imaginary scenarios just to keep yourself
entertained because god forbid you stop and think about, I don't know, your place in the universe or something.
But that's essentially what I do.
So I can imagine that it's just putting that to page and people in a character like Shane, who's quite an over thinker, I can just imagine doing something like that and to create
this scenario in his head that this is what might've happened had something happened to Ilya.
So I like that.
I think it's creative.
Would I want to read it?
No, I don't want them hurt.
I don't want them sad.
I feel like they go pretty enough.
I think it's fine.
But if that's an idea that you want to explore, then it's quite a creative idea and it's a good way of flexing your creative muscles as well.
And if you're into lots of angst and you're into that sort of darkness, then yeah, know, try it out.
I mean, that's what reading's for.
Like there are so many different genres and there's so many different themes that you can go into in lots of different books.
And yet they're all still very popular and people love to read them.
So clearly it's something that people want to read.
um Like even books, some books that I read,
don't have happy ever afters immediately.
I'm talking about like duologies so like you read one book and that book does not have a happy ever after but it's okay because the next book is going to re-explore those
characters and they will eventually get their happy ever after but a plane no happy ever after I can't.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, happily ever after for them.
Not for everyone else, though.
Which means that's...
I also, I said this to myself, I have only read Heated Rivalry and The Long Game.
So I'd probably feel different if I've read all the others and then I tried to read Miracle.
I would not have survived it if I cared any...
I already care about that specific team a lot just from The Long Game.
But if I'd read their books, yeah, that would be awful.
But...
uh
Something I want to point out too is there's a meme out there that exists for like fanfic readers where it's like I got into this just to read some extra smut and now I'm reading
these 500 page depressing pics and that's kind of how it was like because that's an attitude I had about fanfic before I read you know the Manicled that changed my mind on it
where I was like what is happening to my brain like enjoying this story?
And now I just feel that way about anytime I pick up a fic.
I'm like, what are you gonna do in this one?
But it is true, like a lot of our perspective of fanfic is like, it's just slashy, smutty stuff, which I should know better because that's the opinion people have of my romance
that I love as well anyway.
And that's what I was thinking of fanfic, but there's so much that isn't even like relationship focused too.
Like there's literally ones, you one of the ones I am going to recommend in here, the best part of it is the Hollander's relationship with Ilya in it.
Like that's the whole point of the thing or.
It's a fic of like team bonding.
Like people just want more.
It's almost like they just want to write bonus scenes, right?
That's what a lot of one shots are of like, these two characters, we don't get to see them talk enough.
Let's do a fic where they go on a road trip together or like because they want to explore those dynamics that Rachel couldn't put in a book anyway, because it wouldn't even make
any sense.
But I really love this character and this character and they don't get to hang out.
one of my, I didn't, I should have grabbed Rex for this, but like wag Ilia, like.
Ilja retiring and being a wag of Shane and just he would be the most extra wag there is like he absolutely would be.
Sorry, I don't like to say like bag for them.
Wags and bags.
and and in a way it sort of reminds me of when Declan and I sort of reviewed the bonus chapter for Heated Rivalry on Rachel Reed's website and we had lots of thoughts about why
and why now and what that added to the narrative and to the story.
But one of the things that you mentioned earlier, Jen, was canon.
Now I've been introduced to some of these words like canon and fanon, and so I'm wondering if you can explain that to both of us.
Right.
Well, Canon is what's on the page and what the author has said.
Um, and so yeah, any of the canonical is the word we used to say of that of like whatever she's written on the page.
And even some people could say some of the stuff she's also said, but in general, I believe it's only what you've written down is your Canon, what you've published, what
you've said.
Although of course I'm
I'm not one of the people who's like Rachel can't make any comments after the end of it.
No, I love everything she has to say about it.
And I believe her intent about whatever she meant to happen.
I'm one of those people that I do believe that.
um But in general, canon is just what's on the page or what's on the screen, how it's been originally presented.
You can't like ad hoc to it later and then be like, well, it actually meant this.
And I'm like, well, if you didn't put that in where we could get it from your story, then it's not canon.
oh
then it's not there.
The term fanon then comes from, you know, basically anything written in a fan fiction, uh your version of it.
So this is why it's difficult to explain because there's fanon as in each individual fanfic itself has its own fanon.
That's what it is, is them taking the traits they loved from canon and then adding their spin on it.
So in general, fanon is each individual fan fiction.
as well as are there certain things that like most of the fanfics continue to put in them or traits or situations that they, you know, have decided must be a thing or something
like that.
um But that's just so hard because especially with a fandom kind of as new as this one, I don't think there are as many agreed upon fan um scenarios for them yet.
So I don't have like...
perfect answer for that part of it.
Like what is the heated rivalry fanon that we have?
But in general, it's each individual fanfic is a fanon because it's taking cannon and adding your spin to it.
So that's kind of what those terms break down to.
Can I ask you how you would define Ed Cannon?
Yes, I mean, to me that is fanning as well.
So headcanon.
Okay, what's an example?
Because for me, I just know there are things where I read it where I'm like, the author didn't say this, but I fully believe that.
But without having written it down into a fanfic, like that's how I would describe it.
But now I'm trying to think of an example.
And of course, I can't think of any.
It's like, I would imagine it's like reasonable assumptions about the canon, like reasonable assumptions that aren't explicitly stated, but you can assume that this would
actually be a thing within the bounds of the story and within the bounds of the works.
So like a really sad one I always see like is to do with the Harry Potter books where, um you know, one of the head canons that people say exists is that uh
When George dies in the last book, one of the twins, Fred is no longer able to produce Patronus because he associates all his happy memories with his twin and whatever he thinks
about his twin in the East Adam so he can't produce Patronus.
That is not written in the book anywhere and yet I 100 % believe that that could be true.
Yes, yes.
ah I've almost blocked out that he died because of most of the fanfics I read, he's still alive.
So I've just blocked that out.
And thank you for reminding me that pain right now.
uh No, an example that I just thought of then when you before you took us to a very sad place right now is is one of the, um know, well, shoot, I can't say this.
uh
because it has to do with heated rivalry and there's a time jump, let's just say, and some headcanon of what happens in this time jump that, let's just say, Jacob Tierney may now be
making canon when he will film because he said there'll be things he's gonna add in that have to be shown that previously have been my headcanon.
So we'll see if they become canon now because we'll see that.
So that's me being the most awkward vague that you've ever seen.
But there's a time drop between needed rivalry and the long game, let's just say that.
And there's some things in my head that I think have happened em that aren't in the books because we just, when they don't exist on the page, it's not there.
But they're my headcanon.
So I hope Jacob makes them real.
I want them to be real.
Yeah, and thank you for not spoiling it, by the way.
I appreciate it so much.
Um you know how how Declan feels like every week when we record.
But one of the things that you when you were talking, I was thinking about is is have there been fanfics that have sort of you know, fanons that have changed the way you think
of the can?
Yeah, so for me, no.
And this is kind of what I was saying is like, I...
This goes back to the part two, to the part where I was saying in the last podcast that I don't normally read fanfics of things that are unfinished.
And when I started reading the Holonov fanfics, I did not know it was unfinished.
She had not said there would be another book.
I thought where the long game ended is where it ended.
And so I was like, well...
that's not enough for me.
I would like some more please.
And I started reading what I've read.
uh And so I am one of the people that I just don't have my heart set on really any things yet within it.
I don't know if anyone listening, if there's some headcanons that you've made true for it yet or fanning that you've decided on yet.
And for me, I'm still very able to keep them separate at this point.
I think it's probably because it's so fresh to me.
Whereas when I got into
HP fic.
I hadn't read the books in 10 years.
And so whatever I started scooping up with that, I was like, this is the way it can be now.
I don't have to go by anything I've read before.
I'm still very aware of what is Rachel's story.
And I'm excited to see where she takes it with Unrivaled.
So I haven't set, I don't have any areas where I'm like, well, you didn't give me what I wanted with this.
Well, she hasn't done yet.
I don't know.
And there's some things I'm still waiting on that like I think she will do.
So I haven't had to really take it into my own hands yet for me.
yeah, there's really, there are a few that I have in my heart specifically about if they were to have children, what the names of those children will be and what the genders of
those children will be.
I have those set in my heart and I maybe she'll give them to us and maybe she won't.
I haven't made my mind up yet.
That's kind of about it.
Otherwise I'm just like, I'll read whatever anyone puts in front of me.
And I keep.
heated rivalry on the long game separate.
Also, like I said, I read the long game three times in a row.
That is burned in my soul what's in that book.
I'm not trying to replace any.
There's nothing I want to replace.
I love it.
There's nothing I need to replace, whereas I think in some fix of some stories, I am looking to replace something.
Whereas with Hollanoff, I just wanted more, is why I'm reading it.
I'm not trying to fix it.
I'm not trying to change it.
And with the other stories I've read,
there's something missing for me.
I wanna fix it, so I'm reading fix that do it.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
And and in a way I'm thinking about sort of and I don't know how this sits with either of you, is I feel like fan fiction feels very different to like traditional publishing,
right?
And it feels like they're quite separate.
One, you know, and we talked last week about how in one, you know.
You you're selling books, you're making money off it, and and in fanfiction that's not necessarily the goal.
Um you're you're publishing your work for free a lot of the time, so that's not necessarily the primary aim.
But I'm wondering then, is there or are there things that you can do in fanfiction that might limit you in traditional publishing?
Hmm, I can see that.
Yeah, definitely.
mean you sort of alluded to earlier Jen that you don't need to do the work of like building a new character of like creating a new thing of Introducing the audience to this
character because they already have a love for them.
They know them.
They know their personality They know what they're like, they know their history and so you can just get right into the good stuff Like there doesn't need to be a build-up.
You can just get into the really
fun, rewarding stuff because the buildups already happened.
The original author's done it for you.
They've built this character up and now you get to explore with them and put them whatever scenario you want.
And because it doesn't need to be structured in a traditional sense, as in doesn't need to have a real massive character arc and can just be characters enjoying a moment that you've
created for them.
So yeah, it's...
It's kind of like dopamine.
people free fanfic are writing more like dopamine heading pieces rather than a full complete work that sort of touches it out over a controlled way, free out 400 to 500
pages.
I think that's the big advantage of fanfic is that they are able to do that without having to worry about the constraints of like a traditional book.
Yeah, yeah.
No, that is you took the words out of my mouth for some of it because here's the example of that.
All right.
Lately, I'm sure we're all aware there's been a lot of fix that have been pulled from fanfic and have had, they love to say the serial numbers rubbed off and characters renamed
and magic systems rebuilt.
And then they're packaging them to publish.
And it took me a while to, you in the beginning I was like, oh my gosh, that's so exciting because I love this story.
And even if it wasn't said in this world, it'd be so good.
That's something we tell ourselves as fic readers.
And a few of those stories are so powerfully written that I was like, this still has to be good, even if they make it their own, right?
However, now that I've read examples of those fan fictions made traditionally published, there is a very fatal flaw.
exactly what you said Declan because I'm not connected with the characters they've now subbed in for who I want, right?
This has happened with Ray Lofic I've read, Drominific I've read, with like Hunger Games fix that I've been out there because the bond that I have is not with whoever you just
subbed in.
My bond is with Ray.
My bond is with Hermione.
And now you've just said, this is Jessie and she's a magic.
And I'm like, I don't care anything about you.
I don't have your 10 years of history at school where I watched you struggle through things and I saw you be best friends with these guys and now you're falling in love with
this person.
Like none of that bond is there.
And I didn't even foresee that that was going to be a problem until I started reading some of these where I'm like, well the soul is gone.
And it's like, well, duh, because the person that I loved is gone.
They've had to take that person out because it wasn't theirs.
And they had to make someone new.
It doesn't mean that they're inherently a flawed writer.
I mean, I'm sure they got offered so much money to take their fic and make it tradpubed.
like, it's, it's hard to be like fully mad about that.
But I also think that people and those of us who are excited by it are quickly realizing, oh, there is a big difference.
I didn't know that there would be.
I thought that if you switched out the characters, you changed it from, let's say wands to just using your hand or doing this, that it would be okay with me.
And it's really not because everything I was connected with, you're now asking me to be connected with its ghost.
And I'm not connected with its ghost.
I'm connected with those characters.
And so that is where the strength of fan fiction is the fandom behind it, who already has a shared language with you, who already knows what you're trying to do.
If you make a reference to uh Ginger Ale, I know what it means.
You know, if you switch that out with something else, I'm like, what does that mean?
right?
So that's exactly it.
And I think that, you know, Treadpub was able to ride the wave of that a bit.
And to be fair, they've been doing it for a long time.
Okay.
There's like the Shadowhunter series, there's 50 Shades of Grey, there's just all of those ones.
And some of those, it worked better because they weren't magical.
But specifically ones that are HP thick, you try building the magic system.
It really was more complicated than you make it sound for all the...
I know we want to talk about her, but for all this stuff about that person.
They built a cool magic system and you just trying to sub in your stuff and then be like, see, it was easy.
And I'm like, yeah, but I don't understand yours.
So you can't just sub in and then expect everyone to think it makes sense because you don't have all the background for it that it took seven books to get to before I was
reading this fan fiction and liking it, if that makes sense.
So that's the flaw in my opinion is it seems cool.
Like, Ooh, they found a way to get paid and not, and not steal the copyright, but
Ugh, it's that copyrighted work that I loved.
I don't love your soulless story that you're trying to tell me.
Yeah, I think that's where that idea of like this reads like fan fiction comes from.
um It's because it's a story that has no background substance or anything behind it that makes you care enough about these characters.
um You need to build them from the ground up.
You need to introduce them.
You need to make them liked or at least
you know, entertaining to the reader, you need to be invested in their story, but that takes time to build up.
You can't just do it instantly.
And it's only whenever you finally get your reader to care about what happens to your character, can you get into like the events around them, like what's going to happen to
them?
Like I need to care about you first before I give a shit about what you're going to do.
But fanfic is literally just putting characters and making them do stuff that are already established.
So they don't need to do any of that background work.
so whenever someone says this reads like fan fiction, that's what they're talking about.
It's like, you've not done any work to introduce these characters.
I don't care about them.
I don't really know why we haven't like introduced them.
No backstory, no nothing, no context to them.
So why did I care?
um So yeah, it can be definitely translate.
I would say it's more of an art to translate a fanfic into an original piece.
a lot harder than maybe you would think.
Yeah.
Well, and just one other note, I think that's why the ones that have been successful have been the ones that are complete A-U's.
Like there's the love hypothesis is Ray Low fanfic.
There's nothing magical.
They took the character archetypes as the fanfic piece that they took and like the kind of like power differential as a fanfic part they took.
They're not still Jedi on complete different sides of the light and dark side.
It's the archetype of Kylo Ren and it's the archetype of Rey and we put him in a new scenario.
And then that is a completely new story.
And so even if you read that original fanfic or whatever it was, which, I believe with that one too, that wasn't a fanfic that was trained.
The author wrote that type of fanfic and then wrote this type of story brand new using those archetypes.
And
That makes so much more sense because that's what all characters are is archetypes anyway of something else for the most part.
So to me, those are the ones that are and why fidget shades of gray work more too.
We're not still vampires or werewolves fighting over someone.
It's the personality of them or this or whatever.
Whereas when you did, you you said it too of like, have it right here of alchemized.
The reason why manacle works is that I know that person who's being in captivity and being treated that way.
And I love her so much.
And then you have Elkomize and I'm like, I don't know who this woman is.
I mean, yeah, I'm sad she's in captivity, but I don't care about her yet.
You know, all you've done is be shocking and put someone in this position.
because that story is about someone starting with amnesia, I also, she doesn't even have memories to share with me either to make me love her.
She's literally a blank slate dropped in a cell and I'm supposed to love her.
Whereas in Manicold, I know who was dropped in a cell and I'm like, my God, this is horrible.
no.
So.
There's just no way that author was ever going to be able to do that successfully, even though she was so talented in what she did in fan fiction.
Like that fanfic is devastating, but it doesn't work to be translated.
The strength of it is who the characters are in that scenario.
And if you take them out of that to make it publishable and to make money off of it, you've lost all the stuff that made it compelling to me.
And again, like I said, it's like loving a ghost.
Like this is a Draco-like man, but he's not.
And so I don't care about him.
He's just a jerk.
Like I don't have any back love for him.
So anyway.
Yeah, I I really like that you distinguish between what makes fanfic successful and what makes a successful translation into traditional publishing because for the many that have
worked and sold really well and transitioned really well, there must be hundreds, if not thousands, of ones that didn't just didn't work and, you know, got left on the cutting
room floor and never got published.
traditionally published at least.
And I'm wondering if there are are any listeners out there who know of some of those stories.
I'm interested to I'm interested in the story behind the story.
I'm not interested necessarily like it's the E behind the scenes kind of version that I'm looking for.
Mm-hmm.
I was a very early two thousands reference, so I apologize.
So you guys, was wondering if you'd indulge me in a little game at the end of our hangout today, because I really wanted to find a way to give our listeners some recs, but I'm also
super curious about how you'll feel about some of these fanfics, especially after Declan just said, I'm just so not interested in that.
But they aren't all depressing, I promise.
That's very interesting.
I know, I know.
So for those of you listening, what I kind of came up with is kind of like fanfic tier ranking slash like Jeopardy kind of thing, which I know makes no sense, but hopefully it
won't go.
But if some of you have ever seen a tier ranking video, right?
There's usually the three tiers and there's like S tier, A tier, D tier, F tier type of thing.
But since they haven't read any of these and I have, I thought it'd be more fun for them to...
do something like that off of just the first impression of the fic.
So we have a list of all these different tropes or tags, as I have said, that are found within Heated Rivalry.
And I think maybe we'll do like three rounds of it or something, I think, where they pick a tag they like, and I have a fic that corresponds with each one, and we'll read the blurb
and then they can decide if they would either like to immediately click, cautiously intrigued, I'm never picking that up.
or what the fuck is that?
Thanks.
and Declan knows how competitive I am, but this doesn't feel like a game where you win a prize, unfortunately.
No, but it will be, we'll only do each tag one time.
So I mean, maybe it's a competition of who gets to pick the best.
I don't know.
But let's read them all off first here.
I'll read the categories as it were.
And then I don't know who, which of you, which of you is the youngest?
I don't know your ages.
So, okay.
Declan, you'll get to go first then.
Likely doing the board games, the youngest gets to go first.
So, but here's the categories.
the tags and then uh we'll go through.
So there will be enemies to lovers, friends to lovers, uh fake dating slash marriage of convenience, soulmate AU, uh retiring from hockey AU, secret relationship, marriage fic or
post marriage fic, already married couple, hurt slash comfort, only one bed,
a texting slash social media AU, amnesia AU, mafia AU, injured Shane slash injured Ilya, one of them is hurt and the other one's looking out for them, plane crash AU, Omegaverse,
or it fits nothing, it's just for the pain of it all.
So, um, Declan, if you need me to repeat any of those, that's fine, but you first.
You pick a category and I'll share a fic with you.
I want hard comfort.
And then pick one, two or three.
That's a good one.
Okay.
Pull it up here.
All right.
So the fic that I have for you.
this is a good one.
This one is called something you can fix by someone around.
And this is actually a like duology fic because this one's a bit shorter and then it leads into the next one.
But here's the blurb of this one.
Maybe if the video ended there, Shane thought it would be okay.
Still incriminating, still a fucking disaster, still embarrassing to have his breakup with this beautiful actress filmed and disseminated on Reddit of all places, but not a nail in
his coffin burying him alive.
But the video didn't end there.
So this fic is a fan recorded Shane and Rose's conversation when Rose asks if he was gay and it gets disseminated on Reddit.
So what do you think about that one?
Would you immediately click on it, cautiously intrigued, I'm never picking that up, or what the fuck is that?
Honestly the more I'm thinking about it
slow entry.
That's a good one.
ah
like
Who's comforting who in this situation?
Obviously Shane is hurt, but is Ilya coming in and making it better?
I don't know.
Yeah, Maybe, yeah, maybe I can think of myself reading it, but I'm not like, I need to read that.
yeah, well, the second part of the blurb is that this is also outed while Ilya is in Russia.
Now, his name isn't mentioned in the video because Shane doesn't tell Rose who he's in love with, but it gets leaked while Ilya is gone and he loses his fucking mind.
That's what this book has.
So, Sylvan, what do you think of that one?
You also get to place it because it'll be fun if we get to place it.
I?
Okay.
So in the words of Lola Tongue, this is my favourite question.
I will go because I am hella nosy and I'm loving the drama, and everyone who listens to us knows that I bloody love Rose.
So I am going with immediately click.
Yes, yeah, great choice.
Also because, um well, what else was I gonna say about that?
We all know someone overheard that conversation.
There was people sitting right next to them.
And we all have phones in this day and age.
restaurants?
I know.
I mean, the mood lighting was beautiful.
Hudson's face acting, superb.
But you do not have that in a cheesecake factory for fuck's sake.
So it's also one of those things.
me in the background, my head popped over the overboosting and like...
I I know, and they're in Montreal!
No, he's not exactly like, a nobody.
Oh god.
I stand by he should like he should have been at her house or she should have been at his house having that dinner.
That's where that should have been.
But the setting was beautiful.
So.
All right.
Okay, Sylvan.
What's your poison, sir?
So to help our algorithm, I am going to go with texting slash social media AU.
so excited.
I love this one so much.
Yes.
um This one is called If This Is It by SD Blackthorn.
this is making me laugh.
Sorry.
So this one does take place during the long game, but it doesn't have spoilers because it's an AU.
So this absolutely doesn't happen.
It just is taking place when they are together, but they are a secret.
OK, that's the setup you need to know.
So when a petty morning argument is the last thing Ilya says to Shane before he boards the Metro's plane.
He thinks the worst consequences will be a bruised ego and an awkward apology.
Instead, the aircraft declares an emergency.
For Shane.
For Shane, by the way.
As social media explodes, the hockey world halts and Shane's Instagram messages turn from apologies to goodbyes.
And Ilya is forced to confront the one truth he's been hiding longer than his feelings.
Shane Hollander is his, and he may have just lost him.
A mixed media long game era angst spiral featured
breaking news alerts, trending fan edits, locker room confessions, and the most devastating Instagram DM thread you will ever
Interesting.
I forgot what this one was about.
I'm going to go with cautiously intrigued because I feel like it's not grabbing me immediately, but there might be there might be a story there.
But I feel like we've we've had iterations of this in other mediums.
Yeah, the other part of this one is some of the other tags.
This fic also include because it's a mixed media like texting and thing.
It's a fic you should probably be read for those listening.
You should read this fic either on a three or download a PDF because it will have like, literally, it'll look like Twitter.
It'll look like your phone on it and you can't get that sent to your Kindle.
But this one includes a text thread between real life hockey captains.
So it has Shane and Sidney Crosby and all of these real life players who I don't know any of their names because it means nothing to me.
I only like fictional hockey.
But they're all in a real group and they all band together to decide we are looking out for these guys and everyone can fuck off.
So it's really great.
Mmm.
But yeah, so that one was fun.
Yeah, what do you think?
Shane in danger on.
if it's what I think it is then I would be like really interested to see but because I'm not sure my idea is that is this like about like Ilya decides to go public with the
relationship because he thinks he's gonna die
No, it's not.
It's they get caught at the hospital comforting each other and it gets spread on Twitter.
Mm-hmm.
Twitter's such a cesspool.
Even in imaginary worlds.
Much later.
emergency contact.
He gets called he's sitting by his side and someone takes a picture.
And the only people who know are you not and David at that point too.
So nobody else even knows I don't think Hayden even knows in this one.
just know that nurse blabbed.
It's gotta be the nurse.
And this fic is a no like sex fic either.
a not rated, which means it's literally just about like all that.
Like you get to see you and I talking with the lawyers.
You get to see emails back and forth.
Like it's well done.
So great choice.
All right, Declan, what's your next category?
I love enemies to lovers.
Hmm.
Oh, I was hoping you'd pick this one.
This is the best.
This is the time of my life.
We could do a whole episode of this.
All right.
This one, I almost, almost put in what the fuck, but because Sylvan had enemies to lovers on the list, I was like, oh, I'll also put it here.
This fic is called Mutually Assured Exposure by Cockatoo.
And oh my gosh, I'm gonna, whew.
Gonna blush reading this one.
Okay, well at the top of his game, professional porn star, Ilja Rosenoff, is approached by the famous yet boringly untalented OnlyFans creator, Shane Hollander, who wants to
collaborate.
All right?
What starts as a transactional partnership quickly turns into a war of egos, blurred boundaries, and incredible on-screen chemistry.
As their views climb and the sexual tension thickens, they're left to confront the reality that maybe their mutual hatred might be the spark of something more intimate than just
sex.
This is a heated rivalry meets for the fans and I am incredibly interested in reading that book.
it's so good.
Side note to add flavor, um Svetlana and Ilya actually started the company that does this.
And many of the other hockey players are also performers who work for their company.
Because Ilya came from Russia where he was in a predatory arrangement with a porn company.
And he finally broke away when Svetlana helped him get citizenship here.
So he also has this trauma in the background of when he was like basically like
a forced sex worker back then.
So lots of layers to this one.
How long is this fake?
Oh, it's not too r- Well, this one's a good length.
I think this one's like 500 pages.
It's- it's long.
That's just a book.
That's...
I wanted to ruin a book.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's so good.
And Shane is actually a solo worker usually too.
So his OnlyFans is solo work.
So Ilya's his first like on screen kabang.
So what was that?
So it feels all brown for him.
It does, it does.
Oh, one other piece of this, because I don't know if you guys will ever actually read these ones, but the reason he got into sex work is he was in college, he was gonna be a
hockey player, and his first boyfriend, like, shared his nudes.
So he then went into OnlyFans, because he was like, well, fine, if you're gonna show these about me, I'm gonna make money.
And guess who his manager still is?
Oh my god.
It's, I, I'm giggling so much, this truly is a good one.
I didn't put any like duds, even the ones that are what the fuck on this list, they're not duds.
I didn't put shitty ones on here.
Like this was good.
Yeah, very interested in that one.
Very interested.
Super good.
Okay, what were your, okay, so your immediate click, is that what I'm hearing?
yeah, immediate click, yeah.
All right, Sylvan, what about you?
Oh, hundred percent immediate click.
Mmm.
I love it.
Shane's solo work for sure.
No!
They're
right.
It's right.
It's so good.
Because okay, more details.
When Ilya finds out he's gonna be working with him, he thinks like, who is this OnlyFans creator?
We run an empire, a porn empire.
But then he like joins it under another name and like, is like he's going so slow.
And so he pays like $10,000 for Shane to just get to the money shot of the pic.
Because he's like, he's taking forever.
And he's like, when we get to $10,000, then it'll go and he's just like,
send.
So he's like paying for his secret.
which is actually also Iliacoded.
So much, so much.
like, Shane isn't only supposed to collab with him, like he's gonna, cause again, all the hockey players were there.
So like Harris does the social media for the companies and we have like Svetlana's the, like she does the scheduling and then like, so Shane is supposed to work with Scott
Hunter.
And my Kip is like a fluffer.
Kip is a fluffer.
I'm telling you it's magnificent like the way he's still so totally Ilya but filming porn is amazing.
It's so good.
So good.
Yeah, anyway, whoo.
All right, or I mean Sylvan it's your turn.
What are you thinking?
shall we do one more?
No, let's do three.
Come on, we gotta do three.
We can do it.
okay.
You know what?
To change the tone, I'd like to go Soulmate's Alternate Universe.
Oh.
This one's interesting, because it might not be a soulmate the way you think.
Very interesting.
Okay, so this fic is called Slipfast by...
I can't pronounce it.
They don't have a sensical name.
I can't pronounce it, but we'll link it down below.
um And I think the best way...
Okay, here we go.
All right.
You're supposed to smoke over there, someone says from behind Ilja.
Ilja almost dropped his cigarette.
His English was shitty, but he had studied that sentence enough times over the years to understand it immediately.
He didn't even think about his words much anymore.
It was impossible to avoid them.
He turned instinctively and was face to face with Shane Buckinghollander.
Of almost seven billion people, of course, Ilja's soulmate had to be his fated rival.
It was almost poetic.
Still, Ilja had enough sense to realize just how bad this was.
Or...
Shane says Ilya's soulmate words.
Ilya vows never to speak a word to him to keep him from finding out and they fall in love anyway.
So to explain what that means, this soulmate AU is when you hit puberty, you get told what the first line your soulmate will say to you.
and it's literally like tattooed on you, like it appears, like it appears.
So he knows that his soulmate's supposed to say you're supposed to smoke over there.
And then he doesn't speak back.
So he just like pretends he's smoking when Shane's talking to him and it's like, mm, mm, mm.
Because then Shane will never know that they're soulmates.
mm.
mirror coded.
Unless there's I I I don't know if there's been an episode of that on on it or if there's been something similar.
I don't know what the other tags are.
No, but they do end up, see they end up having a texting relationship because it's only spoken words.
So in this fic, like Ilja gets Shane's number earlier on and they start, but every time they fuck, Ilja doesn't speak for like, it's, this one isn't super.
Mermaid?
Basically, basically, this one's pretty short too.
But yeah, it's weird.
I mean, I wanna know who Ursula is in this scenario.
I'm intrigued.
Yeah.
What about you, Declan?
Yeah, yeah, I would say cautiously intrigued.
Yeah, this one I really wanted to punch alien this one I just got to tell you guys but maybe you enjoy that maybe enjoy that.
It was interesting.
I'll tell you that I was like, what is this?
I like trying a use of all kinds.
So I was like, oh, soulmate one that isn't Omega verse because there can be soulmates in Omega verse and I was like, I would like one that isn't that.
Not a big fan of that, you guys.
Sorry.
I do have one to suggest if you should pick that category, but it's just weird for me.
It's always been weird.
It's not Chana and Ilya specific.
I just can't get on board with Omegaverse with men specifically.
I'm sorry the men having a baby through their genitals.
I just can't quite figure out if it exists.
And Hudson William knows about it.
But,
Anyway, anyway, all right.
Last round here.
Declan, what do you pick?
Mmmmm
Do you remember them all or do you need me to reiterate R?
Reminder, I'll pick one out as you're talking.
Okay, what's still left is friends to lovers, fake dating slash marriage of convenience, retiring from hockey, secret marriage of convenience, okay.
a magic convenience.
Me too.
This one's so cute.
Okay.
This one is called the game plan by FestiveFerret.
And the summary is, Shane Hollander is the number two overall NHL draft pick and a newly minted Montreal Voyager.
He's also laser focused on his goals, being the best by beating the best.
For him, that means continued rivalry with number one draft pick, the new Ottawa Centaur, Ilya Roushanov.
But when a problem with Rosanoff's immigration paperwork threatens his future in the NHL, what does that mean for Shane's own career?
He can't risk finding out.
So they get married.
Just for immigration, a fast, practical, mutually beneficial solution.
No one will ever know, let alone uh suspect, and the NHL's greatest rivals are secretly married.
And there's certainly no risk of feelings getting involved.
They have a game plan.
Yeah, so Shane, this is so Shane to me because he's like, I can only be the best if I'm against the best.
And if you're gonna get kicked out, I guess I have to marry you for my career.
I already predicted the plot before you even spoke.
And yes, I would read that 110%.
Yeah, if I seen that in an audible store, I would buy it.
It's so good.
To read a couple quick things here.
So the major divergences from canon, other than it being a fake marriage, is Ilya starts with the centaurs instead of um Boston.
Scott has already come out.
uh Troy does one.
We don't care about Troy here.
Yuna loves the centaurs.
New York, and then there's some stuff about legalities of like why.
uh They have him in Canada so that it can be like a Canada citizenship instead of.
the United States.
So, mm-hmm.
But this one's good, too.
Because it has something to do with like their marriage is still legally recorded.
So if anyone should suspect and start looking stuff up, they could find this.
So that's kind of the threat in them is like, why would anyone suspect they're married?
Who knows?
But if they may, they could find this and then what would happen?
So what do think, Sylvan?
Oh okay I'm gonna be controversial here and I'm gonna say I'm not going to pick this one up.
It feels like a bad J-Lo Romcom.
It just doesn't do it for me.
I mean, I hear you, Jacklin.
I hear you, but we agree on a lot of things on this podcast.
JLo romcoms are not one, apart from her early work, but it just feels like a second generation JLo romcom that Julia Roberts passed on.
Yeah.
What's funny too is I, those of you listening, Sylvan kind of made this list of tags.
I added a few in myself and this is the only one that even closely resembled a fake dating or marriage of convenience for me to be able to put here.
I mean, this is a marriage of convenience.
That's literally what it is.
But I just don't read that in this pairing.
in...
in this pairing, like I don't need them to be fake dating.
They can be secretly dating.
I don't need them to be fake dating because that doesn't make sense in my brain.
I loved this one.
That's why I have it here.
But it's not the same convention as a normal fake dating because normally a fake dating you want to be seen dating.
And this one is the marriage of convenience part where it's supposed to be a fake marriage, but like it's secret.
So it's kind of the opposite of what a fake dating is anyway, because I just don't read those for Shane and Ilya.
don't.
need them to be fake dating, I want them to be real together.
But it was good still.
Who knew Jen would cause our first official argument, Eckland?
falling out, the divorce.
it.
That's it, we're done.
Okay, so I'm gonna go, last pick.
I'm would like to defer to you, Jen, so you get to pick the last one.
Ooh, my gosh, this is so difficult.
This is so difficult.
Okay, hold on, let me look through my little list here.
Okay, I'm laughing so hard.
I wanna pick one that is from the, uh like, what the fuck category.
You guys know I did.
Well, not what the fuck.
This one is it fits nothing, but this one isn't a painful one.
I made that category just to sound cute, but it's one that it fits in nothing.
But let's see what you think.
This fic is called, come on, is called Shane Hollander is dating a nice man from Montreal.
Let me redo the blurb of this one here.
This is by tricky snail and it says this Shane Hollander has a secret boyfriend, but it's not Ilya Rozenov That's for the best though because Shane's boyfriend is absolutely
perfect on paper He's also completely on board with the need to keep their relationship a secret and keep it out of the press and avoid ruffling any Feathers there's only one
problem with Shane's boyfriend.
He's not Ilya Rozenov
Oh no.
I'll tell you more details in a moment.
But tell me what you think This is a really short one too, yeah
one?
picking
What?
Or the cheating one?
Mmm, I mean kind of I know that sounds a word to say kind of they have an open relationship though um Like which I know I don't like those either Declan I see you I see
you I'm gonna tell you more details in a sec But off your initial thing you can be honest.
I'm not trying to win you over That's why this is in the it fits nothing category.
Just tell me what you think
them cheating on each other.
I know.
I can't do it.
Well, Shane and Ilya aren't cheating on each other, by the way.
They maybe cheat on Bozo over
cheating.
She's cheating.
It's not nice.
totally understand.
It's like, I will read the darkest shit, like the darkest dark romances out there, but see if anybody is cheating on someone.
I'm like, trash, go to the trash, I don't want this book anymore.
Go away.
I draw the line at that.
Murder and torture are all you want, I don't care.
Cheating, I draw the line.
I wanna hear Sylvan's ranking and then I'll tell you the detail that made me read it.
Cause I hate cheating as well.
It is my hard red line in the sand, but there's a thing I'm holding back that I think you might like it, but it's all right.
So I'm going to pick this but not because of the reasons both of you have picked it.
I'm not picking this up, not because of the cheating per se, but to me it just seems rather middle of the road, kinda vague, kinda meh.
Like this is a story we've heard before, like this doesn't get me excited.
Mm-hmm Yeah, no, that's totally fair so on I got I get most my wrecks on threads Just cuz they that is where they will gush about fanfics over there So what got me to read it was
number one the title was great because of course it picks up from like couldn't you have needed a nice man from or doesn't know I'm true.
I've nice man Well, guess what this guy this jerk Everyone in Shane's life thinks he's lame the people who know
So again, like he's been dating this.
So the impetus of this one is that Shane and Elia never did that commercial together.
They actually hired an actor to be like Shane was with an actor to do it who uh and so he ended up like falling for this guy instead kind of and it's been kept a secret but his
parents know and like Hayden and Jackie know.
And the thing that got me to read this is that.
Hayden and Jackie conspire with Ilya to get him to ask Shane out because in this one Ilya's out as bisexual and they see the chemistry between them and they're like Ilya we
need you to get him away from this guy.
This guy is such a jerk and Ilya who's secretly had a crush on Shane is like oh so it also has the tag Ilya Rosanoff is a menace that's the other tag in this one that's holding back
and so
because Shane has an open relationship with this guy who mostly is so the other guy can fuck whoever he wants.
Shane doesn't have time to fuck whoever he wants.
He isn't looking at hockey players.
He's not.
But then Ilja starts flirting with him with the blessing of Hayden and Jackie.
And Hayden is like, I cannot believe this that I am backing Ilja Rosenoff to flirt with my friend, but I need him to get away from this asshole.
So it is literally like
all the people behind the scenes being like, ill yeah, ill yeah, ill yeah.
And it's fantastic.
So.
I can I change my answer to cautiously intrigued now?
Because I'm here for it.
This is a two thousands rom com.
Yeah.
it is.
And it's so cute.
And again, this one's really short.
It's only, think, like it works out to like 140 pages.
And it's funny too, because then she hated at one point, it's like, I didn't think about what it would be like to now have Ilya be his boyfriend.
But we've started the machine rolling and we just have to deal with it now.
But it's great.
It's great.
So anyway, I love this one.
Like
One of the tags, sorry one more thing, is Hayden Pike helps Ilya Rosanoff commit a boyfriend heist.
That's how specific the whole tag is.
called it that boyfriend heist.
Great.
Jen I had so much fun playing that game.
Like genuinely, we could turn that into an actual episode in itself.
Um and that was just such a fun way to explore some of the fanfics that we might not be exposed to because of our searches and things like that.
So that was lovely.
Thank you for thinking of that.
You're so welcome.
It was so fun.
And yeah, I'll send you over all the links for the ones we talked about.
Amazing.
And if anyone is looking for more of your content, where can people find you on socials, Jen?
Yeah, I am the book refuge on both YouTube, Instagram, and threads.
So come on over.
I'm always sharing my Hollander recommendations as well as, you know, regular romance and stuff.
I read that too.
So come on over.
well, a big thank you to Jen for joining us.
We had a really, really great time.
I had such a fun time with this episode, especially the game at the end was really fun.
um But that's all we have time for today.
um Again, thank you so much.
For our viewers who are tuning in, we do this once a week, so it's every Sunday.
At the minute, we are also going through the Heat at Rivalry book.
So, Sullivan hasn't actually read the whole thing yet, so we've been doing it through parts and we're moving on to part four, I believe, m of the book.
yeah, we're having lots of fun with that.
So tune in next week if that's what you're looking to hear more about.
And also we have a fable to a book club in which we are reading through the Heat of Rivalry series, the Game Changer series by Rachel Reed.
And we're actually on the long game now.
So.
You can always go back and check out the previous discussions from the books we've already been through, but we are finishing up with that soon.
However, we're moving on to a new series after that, which is the Puckboy series by Eden Finlay and Saxon James.
So if that's on your interest in some more hockey romance, then try that out with us.
But yeah, that's us.
Like, subscribe and comment and share with your friends if you think it's something they might enjoy.
But we'll see you all next week.