Matt Abrahams: Success in life and in work is not just about
showing up and communicating.
It's about making sure you understand what's needed in the moment.
My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast.
Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I look forward to speaking with Erin McGoff.
Erin is a very successful creator, widely known for her popular AdviceWithErin,
where she reaches millions with practical career and life advice.
Erin specializes in making complex professional topics
accessible and actionable.
She recently was named to Forbes 30 under 30.
Her new book is called The Secret Language of Work: Hyper Helpful
Scripts for Every Situation.
Welcome, Erin.
Over the past several months, I've really enjoyed getting to know you,
and I really appreciate the helpful, actionable advice you provide.
Thanks for being here.
Erin McGoff: Thanks Matt for having me.
I'm really excited about this.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Shall we get started?
Erin McGoff: Yeah, let's go for it.
Matt Abrahams: So I'd like to start with the title of your new
book, The Secret Language of Work.
You argue that there's a secret language in the workplace and that cracking
that code is critical to success.
Can you share more about this and what are some specific translations that you
found really unlock success for people?
Erin McGoff: So I was motivated to write this book based off of my content.
You know, I make short form video content teaching people how to phrase
things more professionally, but not in a corporate or robotic way, but rather
strike that balance between sounding professional, but also sounding like
yourself and sounding authentic.
When I was coming up in my career, I just noticed that there was
just this language, there was this etiquette that you had to learn.
Some people were taught it when they were growing up, like their
parents would teach them, or maybe they're even lucky enough to learn
it in school, which is really rare.
And it's this hidden curriculum to the workforce, and it's all these
secret rules that show that you're capable and competent and that you
know how to be professional, like shaking hands on a job interview.
It's not written down anywhere.
It's not equally distributed.
So I was motivated to write the book because I wanted to write down the
hidden etiquette of job interviews and how to negotiate without being rude
and professionally quit your job so that people could have this handbook.
And while a book is about strategic communication in the workforce, it
really is a book that's designed to make people feel more confident.
I wrote it in a way that's similar to how I'm speaking right now, just like
really warm and nonjudgmental, and it's designed to help people, it's a self-help
book, but it's also to help you feel really good at yourself and confident
because you can only communicate as successfully as you believe what you're
saying and your confidence level.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
So how you feel translates directly into how you present yourself and communicate.
What are one or two of the things that you advise people to
begin to build that confidence?
Erin McGoff: Yeah, a lot of people really struggle with confidence.
I always say that confidence isn't binary.
Confidence is a spectrum and it's something that goes up and down.
Working on your confidence is about raising that threshold.
You're gonna go up and down every day, but the more you work on your
confidence, the more you can raise your threshold so it won't go down so much.
The person that you speak to the most is actually yourself.
We talk to ourselves all day, every day, in our minds, and we
can be really mean to ourselves.
Really judgmental and critical.
And the first step, and really the most important step to becoming
confident is to be your own best friend.
Turn that voice, don't try to shut it off 'cause that's impossible,
but try to turn it into something that's a bit more constructive.
And to tell yourself, you didn't bomb that interview, you stumbled over your words
on one of the questions, and it was fine.
You're human.
You know, just to kind of reframe those cognitive distortions that we have.
Surround yourself with people who make you feel good about yourself, but surround
yourself with a great support group.
And then another thing that I don't think enough people talk about is
to get really good at what you do.
That is a great natural way to foster true confidence.
What you'll see a lot is the thinly veiled insecurity that
people think is confidence.
True confidence is actually really relaxed and calm and even funny and humble.
Once you feel really good about yourself and you like who you
are, you don't really care as much about other people think of you.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that.
There's so much richness in what you said.
So first and foremost, it starts internally, the conversations we
have with ourself, and then it's the confidence we have in what we do.
So get really good at it.
And then surround yourself with people who reinforce that.
And realize that being kind to yourself, having a supportive network, can really
change where you are in that trajectory.
And you're right, confidence is not binary.
It varies.
And so I really like the advice, and it does start with that
looking internally and having that confidence in yourself first.
Thank you.
You've done a really great job of sharing information with the world,
creating short form content, really setting up a brand for yourself.
I'd love for you to share some advice and best practices that you use in terms
of how you present yourself externally.
Having a brand that comes with you into work is helpful.
Having a presence that's beyond just the physical you.
What are some best practices you recommend for engaging
people and establishing a brand?
Erin McGoff: The number one piece of advice I always give is do great
work and be great to work with.
Because a lot of people are great at their jobs and they're jerks, and
eventually it catches up with them and nobody wants to work with them because
they're so difficult to work with.
And while they might get away with that for 5 to 10 years, it
does eventually catch up with you.
And that's why I always say, don't burn bridges if you don't have to.
Give people the benefit of the doubt.
Try to get along with everyone and be friendly because that reputation is
really important and trust is important too, and it takes so long to build
trust that you can break it in a second.
So it's really important that you actually teach people how to treat you.
Tell people, this is who I am as a professional.
Here's what I'm here to do and here's what I'm like to work with.
You have a professional brand whether you like it or not, and it's up to you to
decide if you're in control of that or if you're gonna let other people steer that.
Matt Abrahams: So reflecting on what that brand is, what you want it to
be, and then I want to dive a little deeper into the advice you gave about
asserting who you want to be at work and how people should work with you.
It's easy to understand that intellectually, but how do I go to
my boss, my colleagues, and say, hey, here's who I want to be at work,
and here's how best to work with me.
Advice and guidance on how to do that?
Erin McGoff: Yeah, so you have to teach other people how to treat you
and what they can expect from you.
And actually a lot of this happens within the first 24 hours of a new job.
It's really important right up front to tell people what they can expect
from you and to be proactive and to say, well, that's not something that
I do, however, I can help with this.
And that is also known as boundary setting.
Another thing is just proactive communication,
just getting ahead of things.
I remember when I was first starting out, I was on a film set, and the
director gave me a great piece of advice.
She said, ask people how they want to be directed.
I was like, that is a great piece of advice.
Why don't we ask people how they want to be managed?
Different people have different working styles.
Some people are external processors, like me, and they like to talk through
things, and other people like to figure it out first and then come to a
meeting and present you with solutions.
They're equally fine, but it's about figuring out what is their communication
style, what is their preferred workflow and then getting into that.
And, and that leads me to my third point, which is setting expectations.
And understanding the difference between expectations, which are something
specific that you envision the other person and expecting them to do for
you, and standards, which is a standard that you have for yourself that when
other people don't meet that then you will choose to disengage with them.
And at work, it's really important to have standards and also set expectations.
That means don't overpromise.
You want to actually underpromise and overdeliver, and that's typically
a really great way to set yourself up for success, teach people how to
treat you and what to expect from you while also being respected.
It's a great way to building that professional brand at work.
Matt Abrahams: I really like several things you said there.
One is all about anchoring, setting expectations, and you have to think
about what those expectations are.
It's important to establish boundaries and let people know what's appropriate
not, and I really like what you said is, if you're going to say, no, I can't, or
don't feel comfortable doing one thing, do share what you are comfortable doing.
Some people are just so excited to have the new job or to be part of the new
community, that they don't really think about what their immediate behavior,
as you said, that first 24 hours does in terms of setting expectations
for the whole time you're there.
And I really like how you talk about we have to do that introspection first.
So thank you for that.
Where do most people go wrong when advocating for themselves during
things like performance reviews, promotions, or salary conversations?
What can we do to get it right?
Erin McGoff: Whenever you are trying to advocate for yourself or negotiate
or trying to get anyone else to get on board with you, the last thing
you wanna do is talk about yourself.
At the end of the day, the company isn't going to give you a raise because your
student loans are getting more expensive.
They're just not, because it's not their problem, and it's
just not a compelling argument.
So whenever you're going into a situation where you need to convince someone else
to get on board with that idea, you need to put yourself on the back burner.
Put your ego in a little box, put it to the side, and
think about them as a person.
When it comes to advocating for yourself, you have to find reasons
that what you want is something that they would want as well.
So you have to think about what their goals are, what the
company's goals are, and how you can align those goals together.
For example, if you don't really like working on a client project
anymore, instead of going in and saying, I don't like working on this
client project, it's really boring.
I don't wanna do it anymore, their boss is just gonna say, tough luck.
Instead, if you went in and said, hey, I think my skillset would
be much better used over here.
You know, I'm not really being utilized right here.
I think Kevin can handle this a lot better.
Then your manager is hearing, oh, these clients are gonna be happier.
You want them to walk away thinking, I need to do this for their sake.
Matt Abrahams: The point about perspective taking is so important.
It's not about what you want, it's about what they need and really understanding
that and making that mental shift.
I like how you say put your ego and your needs on the back burner.
It's not that they aren't important, but the way you position the message
about what value it has for them.
And the final piece you mentioned there, also super important, which is
demonstrate that in your asking, you're not just asking for what you want,
but you're also showing how you think.
If you say, I would be better at this role and maybe this other person could
do this stuff, you are demonstrating your value because you can think
about how the group, the company, the organization, can do better.
I appreciate that.
I'd like to talk about first impressions.
You and I both know they're super important.
What advice do you have for how we can maximize the first
impression people have of us?
Erin McGoff: So first impressions are so important.
I will say also, I love what Chris Voss says, your last impression
is your lasting impression.
I think people should also think about their last impressions.
You get one chance to make a first impression, and I think the best thing
you can do when you meet somebody new is listen and be curious about them.
People are really interesting.
Everyone has their own little world and their own little life, and they
have interesting things about them.
You just have to be curious about it.
And most people go into it thinking, how can I look good?
How can I have them understand me?
So the best thing that you can do is go in, be really warm, smile.
And just ask them some specific questions and be curious about them.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
The point about being interested and less focused on being
interesting is really powerful.
If you're present, you're listening, you are trying to draw other people
out, can really make a difference.
I like to share that my mother-in-law was so good at making first impressions
and her secret was to listen and then say something very simple.
She'd just say, tell me more.
And in that moment would really connect with people.
It really helps.
One of the big signature bits of advice you give related to
these first impressions, and all impressions, actually, is how do
you come off as professional without being seen as a corporate robot?
How do you suggest people strike that balance between
professionalism and authenticity?
It's a fine line to walk, right?
Erin McGoff: It can be tough.
Professional relationships are different than personal relationships because
in your personal life, if you're not getting along with somebody, you
can just stop hanging out with them.
But in a professional sense, you 100% are going to have to work with
people that you don't personally like.
You're not going to get along with everybody you work with
on a personal level, but you have to get along with them.
So that's why the case for professional speaking and learning how to speak,
you know, with that etiquette and choosing when you want to or when
you don't, is so important because it keeps things within a box.
And I always tell people that learning how to speak professionally benefits you.
When you are speaking professionally, you are putting yourself in a persona
that is a professional version of you, and it actually makes it a lot easier
to negotiate a raise, to set boundaries, to communicate directly, when you're
within that kind of like lexicon.
When it comes to balancing your true personality with your professionalism
I always recommend that you just remember your desired outcome.
That's what I talk about in my book is whenever you go into a
conversation, just remember, what do you actually want to happen.
With personal relationships, you go into it and they're usually very emotional.
You know, I wanna fix this, I wanna be loved or worthy, but with
professional it's usually just, I wanna get this client project done.
And so it's always important to keep things professional
and not necessarily personal.
And again, that's to your benefit, and not necessarily just for everybody
else, but it's actually to benefit and protect you in the workspace.
Matt Abrahams: So again, it comes down to self-reflection and
understanding that you need to be different in different circumstances.
The way you are with your friends, your family, is different than
the way you need to be at work.
The words we use, the language we use, helps define who we are and helps us be
connected, and we have to find the right level of language use to be appropriate.
It might be right for this organization to use a lot of acronyms or it
might not be the right thing.
So being observant and adjusting, that power of language is so important.
And one key indicator, as you just mentioned, is the context, right?
So we have to consider the context and make a decision, which persona,
or how do we want to show up based on the context and how we want to appear.
So another really important point, I often teach my students, the people I
coach communication is context dependent, and you have to make those adjustments.
Let's talk about something that's really hard for lots of people, and
that's interviewing, especially in today's super competitive environment.
What's one tip or technique you suggest that people can do before,
during, and after an interview to really help them stand out?
So actually I'm asking for three techniques, but at
three different time points.
Before they go in, in the interview and after.
Do you have some suggestions there?
Erin McGoff: You know, interviews are weird because we act like, oh,
it's just an interview, but it's not.
You're walking into a room and you're gonna be judged every millisecond
you are in that room, and a lot of recruiters make up their mind in
the first 10 seconds of meeting you.
It's scary to sit there and be judged, especially when you're early
in your career and you feel like you don't bring a lot to the table.
The more you understand your story, the more practice you get, the easier it gets.
So the hardest it'll be is in the beginning of your career.
When I was early on in my career, I definitely had physical anxiety, so I
mentally felt pretty confident going in and I was like, yeah, I can crush
this internship, but physically I would just get really red and hot and
I felt like my body was betraying me.
So for that, for example, I would actually recommend physically exerting
yourself that morning of the interview, going on a run, going to yoga.
What happens before we do something scary, like an interview, is that our fight or
flight is getting ignited and we have this adrenaline running through our body.
So the best thing you can do is actually go let it out.
And then for the mental side, you gotta get amped up and different
people get amped up in different ways.
Some people like to listen to music that makes 'em feel powerful and strong.
For me, I love a good pep talk, so I would call one of my friends and
be like, can you just gas me up real quick, like make me feel so good?
Or even nowadays, I recommend people just go to ChatGPT and be like,
hey, here's a job description.
Here's my resume.
Can you convince me of why I'm so good for this job?
I think it's about having other people remind you of why you're so
great, and remembering that they wouldn't be interviewing you if they
didn't think you were a good fit.
So before the interview, physically get it out.
And then to mentally really get excited and confident about yourself.
And while you're in the interview, remember that the person
interviewing you is a person.
They are a human being.
Their job is to find quality candidates to hire.
So the only thing you need to do is go in and don't focus so much about talking
about yourself and what you've done and your experience and your skills.
Take the job description and say, I am the answer to all your problems.
I've done this before.
I can do it again.
I'm a culture fit.
Have a great attitude, smile, use positive language, keep it forward
facing, solution oriented, so you wanna have that unique offering.
It's like when you're buying a pair of jeans and you have three
in front of you, what's going to make you go for that one pair?
That's just the right color.
They have that extra pocket in the back.
You wanna have that little extra something that makes them really wanna advocate
for you because then they get to close their laptop and go home for the day.
Then after the interview, the most important thing after an interview is to
send that thank you email, which again is part of the secret language of work.
It's something that a lot of people don't know to do unless
somebody told you to do it.
It's not intuitive to send somebody a thank you email after a job interview.
You just wanna send something really simple.
Hey Kate, thanks so much for your interview today.
I really enjoyed learning more about the role.
I'm even more excited to be in the running now.
Here again are three reasons why I think I would be a great fit for this position.
1, 2, 3, keep it really short, and then I really look forward
to hearing back from you herein.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Manage that anxiety.
Do something for the physical part of it and the mental part.
Make sure that you understand the job and target your responses
to their job description.
Be the best pair of jeans you can be.
I love that analogy.
And then taking the time to show that you're really passionate and sending
that thank you note, there's an added benefit to sending a thank you note.
If there's anything you want to clarify or correct or add, you can do it there.
I think managing anxiety, tailoring the message to the job, making sure
you'd say something that's memorable.
Finally sending that thank you note, really good advice.
Everything we've talked about so far, which has been things you
do verbally, things you think.
Do you have one bit of advice for what you do with your body?
Do you have one suggestion for our non-verbal presence?
Erin McGoff: Keep open body language.
Definitely don't cross your arms.
That's a defensive position and I think it's okay to cross your legs.
Keep your hands visible on the table if you can.
Humans subconsciously don't like hidden hands, so you wanna keep visible hands.
Matt Abrahams: Great advice, open, visible hands, forward leaning, signals
interest and intent, which is really good.
Thank you for providing advice that you can do both in person and virtually.
Everything you described can be done via video as well.
Before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions.
One I create just for you, and the other two are similar across everybody.
You ready for that?
Erin McGoff: I'm ready.
Matt Abrahams: So you, for a living, give people advice.
I'm curious, what's the best advice you've ever received?
Erin McGoff: My dad is great at giving these little short snippets and he
always says, from when I was younger, to be intentional and persist variously.
So be intentional about where you wanna go and what you wanna do in life.
Be specific about it, and then persist variously.
So don't let any obstacle get in your way and every day be intentional and
persist variously, what can we do today?
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, fast and the furious.
I think that's great.
Have intention and act tenaciously towards it.
Thank you.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Erin McGoff: Some of the best communicators I've seen are in my family.
My parents communicate different ways.
My mom is a very authentic and intentional communicator, and my dad
is a very straightforward and intense communicator, and I think having those
two, I got to see different sides of it.
So I have to say both my parents.
Matt Abrahams: It's really interesting how people answer this question.
Some take people that are very close and near and dear to them and others
pick people who are in the public eye, and you can learn from both.
Alright, the final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Erin McGoff: Number one is to know your audience.
Not all audiences are created equal, so if you're going into a meeting
with a HR rep in a huge corporation, that's different than going into a
meeting with a CEO of a small company.
So you need to know your audience and know who you're talking to
and know what their goals are.
The second thing is to know you and to know your goals and your desired outcome.
What do you want out of this conversation?
So first, thinking about what they want out of the conversation and
put yourself in their shoes first.
And then think about what you want out of the conversation and then you
can think about how those two align.
And my third thing I would have to say is just smile.
So many people when they get into sticky conversations or difficult
conversations that they get so serious, they get a little defensive, just smile.
The solution is out there and you're gonna find it together.
So I think it's really important to always keep that collaborative spirit alive.
Matt Abrahams: So know your audience, know yourself, be collaborative, and
show up with a smile on your face.
I think those are three important ingredients that would lead
to a very successful outcome.
Erin, I can see why you are so good at giving advice.
It's practical, it's tactical, it's relatable.
Thank you so much for your time, for your advice, and I wish you the best
of luck on The Secret Language of Work.
Erin McGoff: Thank you so much, Matt.
This was great.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about workplace best practices, please listen
to Lorraine Lee in episode 202.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.
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