WEBVTT 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:06.210 Matt Abrahams: Success in life and in work is not just about 00:00:06.210 --> 00:00:07.560 showing up and communicating. 00:00:07.890 --> 00:00:11.520 It's about making sure you understand what's needed in the moment. 00:00:12.030 --> 00:00:15.390 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:15.390 --> 00:00:17.280 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:17.550 --> 00:00:18.960 Welcome to Think Fast. 00:00:19.319 --> 00:00:21.000 Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:21.720 --> 00:00:23.669 Today, I look forward to speaking with Erin McGoff. 00:00:24.119 --> 00:00:28.490 Erin is a very successful creator, widely known for her popular AdviceWithErin, 00:00:29.580 --> 00:00:33.360 where she reaches millions with practical career and life advice. 00:00:33.629 --> 00:00:36.660 Erin specializes in making complex professional topics 00:00:36.660 --> 00:00:38.459 accessible and actionable. 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:41.610 She recently was named to Forbes 30 under 30. 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:46.170 Her new book is called The Secret Language of Work: Hyper Helpful 00:00:46.170 --> 00:00:48.150 Scripts for Every Situation. 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:49.320 Welcome, Erin. 00:00:49.620 --> 00:00:52.260 Over the past several months, I've really enjoyed getting to know you, 00:00:52.260 --> 00:00:55.770 and I really appreciate the helpful, actionable advice you provide. 00:00:55.770 --> 00:00:56.295 Thanks for being here. 00:00:56.940 --> 00:00:57.990 Erin McGoff: Thanks Matt for having me. 00:00:57.990 --> 00:00:59.610 I'm really excited about this. 00:00:59.700 --> 00:01:00.360 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:00.360 --> 00:01:01.320 Shall we get started? 00:01:01.530 --> 00:01:02.430 Erin McGoff: Yeah, let's go for it. 00:01:02.670 --> 00:01:05.099 Matt Abrahams: So I'd like to start with the title of your new 00:01:05.099 --> 00:01:07.590 book, The Secret Language of Work. 00:01:07.650 --> 00:01:10.980 You argue that there's a secret language in the workplace and that cracking 00:01:10.980 --> 00:01:13.230 that code is critical to success. 00:01:13.620 --> 00:01:18.420 Can you share more about this and what are some specific translations that you 00:01:18.420 --> 00:01:20.820 found really unlock success for people? 00:01:21.315 --> 00:01:24.945 Erin McGoff: So I was motivated to write this book based off of my content. 00:01:24.945 --> 00:01:28.515 You know, I make short form video content teaching people how to phrase 00:01:28.515 --> 00:01:33.494 things more professionally, but not in a corporate or robotic way, but rather 00:01:33.494 --> 00:01:36.735 strike that balance between sounding professional, but also sounding like 00:01:36.735 --> 00:01:38.145 yourself and sounding authentic. 00:01:38.535 --> 00:01:41.475 When I was coming up in my career, I just noticed that there was 00:01:41.475 --> 00:01:44.595 just this language, there was this etiquette that you had to learn. 00:01:44.865 --> 00:01:47.790 Some people were taught it when they were growing up, like their 00:01:47.790 --> 00:01:50.280 parents would teach them, or maybe they're even lucky enough to learn 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:51.780 it in school, which is really rare. 00:01:51.960 --> 00:01:55.680 And it's this hidden curriculum to the workforce, and it's all these 00:01:55.800 --> 00:01:59.490 secret rules that show that you're capable and competent and that you 00:01:59.490 --> 00:02:02.520 know how to be professional, like shaking hands on a job interview. 00:02:02.970 --> 00:02:04.500 It's not written down anywhere. 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:05.970 It's not equally distributed. 00:02:05.970 --> 00:02:08.730 So I was motivated to write the book because I wanted to write down the 00:02:08.730 --> 00:02:12.120 hidden etiquette of job interviews and how to negotiate without being rude 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.720 and professionally quit your job so that people could have this handbook. 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:19.280 And while a book is about strategic communication in the workforce, it 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:22.070 really is a book that's designed to make people feel more confident. 00:02:22.310 --> 00:02:25.820 I wrote it in a way that's similar to how I'm speaking right now, just like 00:02:25.820 --> 00:02:30.590 really warm and nonjudgmental, and it's designed to help people, it's a self-help 00:02:30.590 --> 00:02:33.950 book, but it's also to help you feel really good at yourself and confident 00:02:33.950 --> 00:02:36.980 because you can only communicate as successfully as you believe what you're 00:02:36.980 --> 00:02:38.270 saying and your confidence level. 00:02:38.720 --> 00:02:39.410 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:02:39.410 --> 00:02:43.640 So how you feel translates directly into how you present yourself and communicate. 00:02:43.700 --> 00:02:46.640 What are one or two of the things that you advise people to 00:02:46.670 --> 00:02:48.680 begin to build that confidence? 00:02:49.070 --> 00:02:52.280 Erin McGoff: Yeah, a lot of people really struggle with confidence. 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:54.740 I always say that confidence isn't binary. 00:02:54.740 --> 00:02:58.610 Confidence is a spectrum and it's something that goes up and down. 00:02:58.940 --> 00:03:01.280 Working on your confidence is about raising that threshold. 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:04.340 You're gonna go up and down every day, but the more you work on your 00:03:04.340 --> 00:03:07.400 confidence, the more you can raise your threshold so it won't go down so much. 00:03:07.700 --> 00:03:10.550 The person that you speak to the most is actually yourself. 00:03:10.910 --> 00:03:16.030 We talk to ourselves all day, every day, in our minds, and we 00:03:16.030 --> 00:03:17.739 can be really mean to ourselves. 00:03:17.890 --> 00:03:19.899 Really judgmental and critical. 00:03:20.230 --> 00:03:23.410 And the first step, and really the most important step to becoming 00:03:23.410 --> 00:03:25.299 confident is to be your own best friend. 00:03:25.690 --> 00:03:28.690 Turn that voice, don't try to shut it off 'cause that's impossible, 00:03:28.690 --> 00:03:31.060 but try to turn it into something that's a bit more constructive. 00:03:31.239 --> 00:03:35.829 And to tell yourself, you didn't bomb that interview, you stumbled over your words 00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:38.049 on one of the questions, and it was fine. 00:03:38.049 --> 00:03:38.560 You're human. 00:03:38.900 --> 00:03:42.170 You know, just to kind of reframe those cognitive distortions that we have. 00:03:42.500 --> 00:03:46.400 Surround yourself with people who make you feel good about yourself, but surround 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:47.750 yourself with a great support group. 00:03:47.900 --> 00:03:50.810 And then another thing that I don't think enough people talk about is 00:03:50.810 --> 00:03:52.760 to get really good at what you do. 00:03:53.150 --> 00:03:57.050 That is a great natural way to foster true confidence. 00:03:57.350 --> 00:04:00.200 What you'll see a lot is the thinly veiled insecurity that 00:04:00.200 --> 00:04:01.520 people think is confidence. 00:04:01.700 --> 00:04:08.270 True confidence is actually really relaxed and calm and even funny and humble. 00:04:08.600 --> 00:04:10.970 Once you feel really good about yourself and you like who you 00:04:10.970 --> 00:04:13.910 are, you don't really care as much about other people think of you. 00:04:14.290 --> 00:04:15.070 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that. 00:04:15.070 --> 00:04:17.110 There's so much richness in what you said. 00:04:17.110 --> 00:04:20.380 So first and foremost, it starts internally, the conversations we 00:04:20.380 --> 00:04:23.620 have with ourself, and then it's the confidence we have in what we do. 00:04:23.620 --> 00:04:24.820 So get really good at it. 00:04:24.940 --> 00:04:27.370 And then surround yourself with people who reinforce that. 00:04:27.700 --> 00:04:32.109 And realize that being kind to yourself, having a supportive network, can really 00:04:32.109 --> 00:04:34.780 change where you are in that trajectory. 00:04:34.780 --> 00:04:37.419 And you're right, confidence is not binary. 00:04:37.419 --> 00:04:38.260 It varies. 00:04:38.289 --> 00:04:41.349 And so I really like the advice, and it does start with that 00:04:41.440 --> 00:04:44.469 looking internally and having that confidence in yourself first. 00:04:44.469 --> 00:04:44.650 Thank you. 00:04:45.465 --> 00:04:49.965 You've done a really great job of sharing information with the world, 00:04:50.025 --> 00:04:53.895 creating short form content, really setting up a brand for yourself. 00:04:54.375 --> 00:04:58.935 I'd love for you to share some advice and best practices that you use in terms 00:04:58.935 --> 00:05:02.025 of how you present yourself externally. 00:05:02.235 --> 00:05:05.740 Having a brand that comes with you into work is helpful. 00:05:06.350 --> 00:05:09.380 Having a presence that's beyond just the physical you. 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.980 What are some best practices you recommend for engaging 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:14.720 people and establishing a brand? 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.630 Erin McGoff: The number one piece of advice I always give is do great 00:05:18.630 --> 00:05:20.010 work and be great to work with. 00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:24.210 Because a lot of people are great at their jobs and they're jerks, and 00:05:24.210 --> 00:05:27.210 eventually it catches up with them and nobody wants to work with them because 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:28.890 they're so difficult to work with. 00:05:29.070 --> 00:05:32.160 And while they might get away with that for 5 to 10 years, it 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:33.600 does eventually catch up with you. 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.630 And that's why I always say, don't burn bridges if you don't have to. 00:05:36.975 --> 00:05:38.805 Give people the benefit of the doubt. 00:05:38.805 --> 00:05:43.875 Try to get along with everyone and be friendly because that reputation is 00:05:43.965 --> 00:05:48.345 really important and trust is important too, and it takes so long to build 00:05:48.345 --> 00:05:49.995 trust that you can break it in a second. 00:05:50.175 --> 00:05:53.745 So it's really important that you actually teach people how to treat you. 00:05:54.075 --> 00:05:56.025 Tell people, this is who I am as a professional. 00:05:56.055 --> 00:05:59.325 Here's what I'm here to do and here's what I'm like to work with. 00:05:59.595 --> 00:06:02.865 You have a professional brand whether you like it or not, and it's up to you to 00:06:02.865 --> 00:06:05.715 decide if you're in control of that or if you're gonna let other people steer that. 00:06:06.330 --> 00:06:09.090 Matt Abrahams: So reflecting on what that brand is, what you want it to 00:06:09.090 --> 00:06:14.460 be, and then I want to dive a little deeper into the advice you gave about 00:06:14.670 --> 00:06:19.320 asserting who you want to be at work and how people should work with you. 00:06:19.440 --> 00:06:22.500 It's easy to understand that intellectually, but how do I go to 00:06:22.500 --> 00:06:26.040 my boss, my colleagues, and say, hey, here's who I want to be at work, 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:27.720 and here's how best to work with me. 00:06:27.870 --> 00:06:29.415 Advice and guidance on how to do that? 00:06:29.935 --> 00:06:33.715 Erin McGoff: Yeah, so you have to teach other people how to treat you 00:06:33.715 --> 00:06:34.855 and what they can expect from you. 00:06:34.855 --> 00:06:38.275 And actually a lot of this happens within the first 24 hours of a new job. 00:06:38.635 --> 00:06:42.385 It's really important right up front to tell people what they can expect 00:06:42.385 --> 00:06:45.175 from you and to be proactive and to say, well, that's not something that 00:06:45.175 --> 00:06:47.125 I do, however, I can help with this. 00:06:47.155 --> 00:06:49.435 And that is also known as boundary setting. 00:06:49.645 --> 00:06:51.835 Another thing is just proactive communication, 00:06:51.985 --> 00:06:53.245 just getting ahead of things. 00:06:53.545 --> 00:06:57.570 I remember when I was first starting out, I was on a film set, and the 00:06:57.570 --> 00:06:59.400 director gave me a great piece of advice. 00:06:59.400 --> 00:07:01.890 She said, ask people how they want to be directed. 00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:03.990 I was like, that is a great piece of advice. 00:07:03.990 --> 00:07:06.479 Why don't we ask people how they want to be managed? 00:07:06.810 --> 00:07:08.640 Different people have different working styles. 00:07:08.640 --> 00:07:11.849 Some people are external processors, like me, and they like to talk through 00:07:11.849 --> 00:07:14.909 things, and other people like to figure it out first and then come to a 00:07:14.909 --> 00:07:16.409 meeting and present you with solutions. 00:07:16.710 --> 00:07:20.310 They're equally fine, but it's about figuring out what is their communication 00:07:20.310 --> 00:07:23.570 style, what is their preferred workflow and then getting into that. 00:07:23.570 --> 00:07:26.330 And, and that leads me to my third point, which is setting expectations. 00:07:26.510 --> 00:07:29.210 And understanding the difference between expectations, which are something 00:07:29.210 --> 00:07:32.180 specific that you envision the other person and expecting them to do for 00:07:32.180 --> 00:07:35.810 you, and standards, which is a standard that you have for yourself that when 00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:39.310 other people don't meet that then you will choose to disengage with them. 00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:43.575 And at work, it's really important to have standards and also set expectations. 00:07:43.575 --> 00:07:44.865 That means don't overpromise. 00:07:45.045 --> 00:07:48.735 You want to actually underpromise and overdeliver, and that's typically 00:07:48.735 --> 00:07:52.455 a really great way to set yourself up for success, teach people how to 00:07:52.485 --> 00:07:55.965 treat you and what to expect from you while also being respected. 00:07:56.085 --> 00:07:58.635 It's a great way to building that professional brand at work. 00:07:59.010 --> 00:08:01.290 Matt Abrahams: I really like several things you said there. 00:08:01.290 --> 00:08:05.190 One is all about anchoring, setting expectations, and you have to think 00:08:05.190 --> 00:08:06.720 about what those expectations are. 00:08:06.900 --> 00:08:10.440 It's important to establish boundaries and let people know what's appropriate 00:08:10.440 --> 00:08:14.250 not, and I really like what you said is, if you're going to say, no, I can't, or 00:08:14.250 --> 00:08:18.740 don't feel comfortable doing one thing, do share what you are comfortable doing. 00:08:18.890 --> 00:08:22.190 Some people are just so excited to have the new job or to be part of the new 00:08:22.190 --> 00:08:27.050 community, that they don't really think about what their immediate behavior, 00:08:27.050 --> 00:08:30.620 as you said, that first 24 hours does in terms of setting expectations 00:08:30.620 --> 00:08:32.150 for the whole time you're there. 00:08:32.450 --> 00:08:35.750 And I really like how you talk about we have to do that introspection first. 00:08:35.750 --> 00:08:36.590 So thank you for that. 00:08:37.155 --> 00:08:40.605 Where do most people go wrong when advocating for themselves during 00:08:40.605 --> 00:08:45.225 things like performance reviews, promotions, or salary conversations? 00:08:45.405 --> 00:08:46.694 What can we do to get it right? 00:08:47.175 --> 00:08:50.595 Erin McGoff: Whenever you are trying to advocate for yourself or negotiate 00:08:50.595 --> 00:08:54.045 or trying to get anyone else to get on board with you, the last thing 00:08:54.045 --> 00:08:55.665 you wanna do is talk about yourself. 00:08:56.055 --> 00:08:59.085 At the end of the day, the company isn't going to give you a raise because your 00:08:59.085 --> 00:09:00.885 student loans are getting more expensive. 00:09:01.215 --> 00:09:03.435 They're just not, because it's not their problem, and it's 00:09:03.435 --> 00:09:04.755 just not a compelling argument. 00:09:05.025 --> 00:09:08.895 So whenever you're going into a situation where you need to convince someone else 00:09:08.895 --> 00:09:13.745 to get on board with that idea, you need to put yourself on the back burner. 00:09:14.075 --> 00:09:16.985 Put your ego in a little box, put it to the side, and 00:09:16.985 --> 00:09:19.115 think about them as a person. 00:09:19.475 --> 00:09:22.745 When it comes to advocating for yourself, you have to find reasons 00:09:22.805 --> 00:09:26.645 that what you want is something that they would want as well. 00:09:26.645 --> 00:09:28.325 So you have to think about what their goals are, what the 00:09:28.325 --> 00:09:31.145 company's goals are, and how you can align those goals together. 00:09:31.385 --> 00:09:35.915 For example, if you don't really like working on a client project 00:09:35.915 --> 00:09:38.825 anymore, instead of going in and saying, I don't like working on this 00:09:38.825 --> 00:09:40.085 client project, it's really boring. 00:09:40.085 --> 00:09:42.905 I don't wanna do it anymore, their boss is just gonna say, tough luck. 00:09:43.295 --> 00:09:46.775 Instead, if you went in and said, hey, I think my skillset would 00:09:46.775 --> 00:09:48.395 be much better used over here. 00:09:48.395 --> 00:09:49.745 You know, I'm not really being utilized right here. 00:09:49.745 --> 00:09:51.545 I think Kevin can handle this a lot better. 00:09:51.755 --> 00:09:55.325 Then your manager is hearing, oh, these clients are gonna be happier. 00:09:55.535 --> 00:09:58.925 You want them to walk away thinking, I need to do this for their sake. 00:09:59.315 --> 00:10:02.645 Matt Abrahams: The point about perspective taking is so important. 00:10:02.645 --> 00:10:07.105 It's not about what you want, it's about what they need and really understanding 00:10:07.105 --> 00:10:08.545 that and making that mental shift. 00:10:08.545 --> 00:10:11.425 I like how you say put your ego and your needs on the back burner. 00:10:11.755 --> 00:10:14.785 It's not that they aren't important, but the way you position the message 00:10:14.814 --> 00:10:17.275 about what value it has for them. 00:10:17.485 --> 00:10:21.115 And the final piece you mentioned there, also super important, which is 00:10:21.265 --> 00:10:25.885 demonstrate that in your asking, you're not just asking for what you want, 00:10:25.885 --> 00:10:27.550 but you're also showing how you think. 00:10:28.105 --> 00:10:31.225 If you say, I would be better at this role and maybe this other person could 00:10:31.225 --> 00:10:35.635 do this stuff, you are demonstrating your value because you can think 00:10:35.635 --> 00:10:38.575 about how the group, the company, the organization, can do better. 00:10:38.755 --> 00:10:39.745 I appreciate that. 00:10:40.105 --> 00:10:42.205 I'd like to talk about first impressions. 00:10:42.235 --> 00:10:44.245 You and I both know they're super important. 00:10:44.305 --> 00:10:47.815 What advice do you have for how we can maximize the first 00:10:47.815 --> 00:10:49.675 impression people have of us? 00:10:50.115 --> 00:10:53.604 Erin McGoff: So first impressions are so important. 00:10:54.135 --> 00:10:57.330 I will say also, I love what Chris Voss says, your last impression 00:10:57.330 --> 00:10:58.560 is your lasting impression. 00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:00.930 I think people should also think about their last impressions. 00:11:01.260 --> 00:11:04.590 You get one chance to make a first impression, and I think the best thing 00:11:04.590 --> 00:11:07.950 you can do when you meet somebody new is listen and be curious about them. 00:11:08.190 --> 00:11:09.660 People are really interesting. 00:11:09.900 --> 00:11:12.690 Everyone has their own little world and their own little life, and they 00:11:12.690 --> 00:11:14.220 have interesting things about them. 00:11:14.460 --> 00:11:16.140 You just have to be curious about it. 00:11:16.140 --> 00:11:19.600 And most people go into it thinking, how can I look good? 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:21.040 How can I have them understand me? 00:11:21.430 --> 00:11:25.150 So the best thing that you can do is go in, be really warm, smile. 00:11:25.575 --> 00:11:28.965 And just ask them some specific questions and be curious about them. 00:11:29.505 --> 00:11:29.775 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:11:29.775 --> 00:11:33.255 The point about being interested and less focused on being 00:11:33.255 --> 00:11:36.285 interesting is really powerful. 00:11:36.615 --> 00:11:41.085 If you're present, you're listening, you are trying to draw other people 00:11:41.085 --> 00:11:42.795 out, can really make a difference. 00:11:42.795 --> 00:11:47.205 I like to share that my mother-in-law was so good at making first impressions 00:11:47.205 --> 00:11:50.655 and her secret was to listen and then say something very simple. 00:11:50.655 --> 00:11:52.045 She'd just say, tell me more. 00:11:52.314 --> 00:11:55.439 And in that moment would really connect with people. 00:11:55.560 --> 00:11:56.310 It really helps. 00:11:56.699 --> 00:12:00.270 One of the big signature bits of advice you give related to 00:12:00.270 --> 00:12:03.660 these first impressions, and all impressions, actually, is how do 00:12:03.660 --> 00:12:06.870 you come off as professional without being seen as a corporate robot? 00:12:07.170 --> 00:12:10.199 How do you suggest people strike that balance between 00:12:10.410 --> 00:12:12.390 professionalism and authenticity? 00:12:12.510 --> 00:12:14.490 It's a fine line to walk, right? 00:12:14.790 --> 00:12:15.840 Erin McGoff: It can be tough. 00:12:16.020 --> 00:12:19.940 Professional relationships are different than personal relationships because 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:22.430 in your personal life, if you're not getting along with somebody, you 00:12:22.430 --> 00:12:23.480 can just stop hanging out with them. 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:27.650 But in a professional sense, you 100% are going to have to work with 00:12:27.650 --> 00:12:29.330 people that you don't personally like. 00:12:29.630 --> 00:12:31.520 You're not going to get along with everybody you work with 00:12:31.520 --> 00:12:34.650 on a personal level, but you have to get along with them. 00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:38.460 So that's why the case for professional speaking and learning how to speak, 00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:41.040 you know, with that etiquette and choosing when you want to or when 00:12:41.040 --> 00:12:44.370 you don't, is so important because it keeps things within a box. 00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:48.660 And I always tell people that learning how to speak professionally benefits you. 00:12:49.230 --> 00:12:52.740 When you are speaking professionally, you are putting yourself in a persona 00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:55.890 that is a professional version of you, and it actually makes it a lot easier 00:12:55.890 --> 00:13:00.720 to negotiate a raise, to set boundaries, to communicate directly, when you're 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.640 within that kind of like lexicon. 00:13:02.970 --> 00:13:06.420 When it comes to balancing your true personality with your professionalism 00:13:06.985 --> 00:13:10.015 I always recommend that you just remember your desired outcome. 00:13:10.225 --> 00:13:12.295 That's what I talk about in my book is whenever you go into a 00:13:12.295 --> 00:13:15.834 conversation, just remember, what do you actually want to happen. 00:13:16.074 --> 00:13:19.555 With personal relationships, you go into it and they're usually very emotional. 00:13:19.615 --> 00:13:22.555 You know, I wanna fix this, I wanna be loved or worthy, but with 00:13:22.555 --> 00:13:25.074 professional it's usually just, I wanna get this client project done. 00:13:25.675 --> 00:13:28.225 And so it's always important to keep things professional 00:13:28.225 --> 00:13:29.515 and not necessarily personal. 00:13:29.765 --> 00:13:32.965 And again, that's to your benefit, and not necessarily just for everybody 00:13:32.965 --> 00:13:35.454 else, but it's actually to benefit and protect you in the workspace. 00:13:35.865 --> 00:13:38.775 Matt Abrahams: So again, it comes down to self-reflection and 00:13:38.775 --> 00:13:42.915 understanding that you need to be different in different circumstances. 00:13:42.915 --> 00:13:45.165 The way you are with your friends, your family, is different than 00:13:45.165 --> 00:13:46.395 the way you need to be at work. 00:13:46.665 --> 00:13:51.915 The words we use, the language we use, helps define who we are and helps us be 00:13:51.915 --> 00:13:56.205 connected, and we have to find the right level of language use to be appropriate. 00:13:56.205 --> 00:14:00.475 It might be right for this organization to use a lot of acronyms or it 00:14:00.505 --> 00:14:01.555 might not be the right thing. 00:14:01.555 --> 00:14:05.905 So being observant and adjusting, that power of language is so important. 00:14:06.385 --> 00:14:09.625 And one key indicator, as you just mentioned, is the context, right? 00:14:09.625 --> 00:14:14.245 So we have to consider the context and make a decision, which persona, 00:14:14.275 --> 00:14:17.515 or how do we want to show up based on the context and how we want to appear. 00:14:17.515 --> 00:14:21.085 So another really important point, I often teach my students, the people I 00:14:21.085 --> 00:14:25.585 coach communication is context dependent, and you have to make those adjustments. 00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:29.070 Let's talk about something that's really hard for lots of people, and 00:14:29.070 --> 00:14:33.390 that's interviewing, especially in today's super competitive environment. 00:14:33.780 --> 00:14:38.010 What's one tip or technique you suggest that people can do before, 00:14:38.040 --> 00:14:41.100 during, and after an interview to really help them stand out? 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:42.990 So actually I'm asking for three techniques, but at 00:14:42.990 --> 00:14:44.190 three different time points. 00:14:44.400 --> 00:14:46.710 Before they go in, in the interview and after. 00:14:46.710 --> 00:14:48.210 Do you have some suggestions there? 00:14:48.540 --> 00:14:50.970 Erin McGoff: You know, interviews are weird because we act like, oh, 00:14:50.970 --> 00:14:52.470 it's just an interview, but it's not. 00:14:52.470 --> 00:14:55.680 You're walking into a room and you're gonna be judged every millisecond 00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:58.470 you are in that room, and a lot of recruiters make up their mind in 00:14:58.470 --> 00:14:59.699 the first 10 seconds of meeting you. 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:04.410 It's scary to sit there and be judged, especially when you're early 00:15:04.410 --> 00:15:06.750 in your career and you feel like you don't bring a lot to the table. 00:15:07.079 --> 00:15:10.425 The more you understand your story, the more practice you get, the easier it gets. 00:15:10.425 --> 00:15:13.185 So the hardest it'll be is in the beginning of your career. 00:15:13.454 --> 00:15:16.635 When I was early on in my career, I definitely had physical anxiety, so I 00:15:16.635 --> 00:15:19.395 mentally felt pretty confident going in and I was like, yeah, I can crush 00:15:19.395 --> 00:15:24.405 this internship, but physically I would just get really red and hot and 00:15:24.405 --> 00:15:26.475 I felt like my body was betraying me. 00:15:26.910 --> 00:15:31.890 So for that, for example, I would actually recommend physically exerting 00:15:31.890 --> 00:15:35.490 yourself that morning of the interview, going on a run, going to yoga. 00:15:35.910 --> 00:15:39.780 What happens before we do something scary, like an interview, is that our fight or 00:15:39.780 --> 00:15:42.540 flight is getting ignited and we have this adrenaline running through our body. 00:15:42.719 --> 00:15:45.270 So the best thing you can do is actually go let it out. 00:15:45.660 --> 00:15:49.380 And then for the mental side, you gotta get amped up and different 00:15:49.380 --> 00:15:51.180 people get amped up in different ways. 00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:54.720 Some people like to listen to music that makes 'em feel powerful and strong. 00:15:55.050 --> 00:15:58.830 For me, I love a good pep talk, so I would call one of my friends and 00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:02.070 be like, can you just gas me up real quick, like make me feel so good? 00:16:02.280 --> 00:16:05.460 Or even nowadays, I recommend people just go to ChatGPT and be like, 00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:06.840 hey, here's a job description. 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:07.500 Here's my resume. 00:16:07.500 --> 00:16:10.350 Can you convince me of why I'm so good for this job? 00:16:10.935 --> 00:16:13.785 I think it's about having other people remind you of why you're so 00:16:13.785 --> 00:16:17.235 great, and remembering that they wouldn't be interviewing you if they 00:16:17.235 --> 00:16:17.970 didn't think you were a good fit. 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:20.820 So before the interview, physically get it out. 00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:24.480 And then to mentally really get excited and confident about yourself. 00:16:24.810 --> 00:16:27.510 And while you're in the interview, remember that the person 00:16:27.510 --> 00:16:28.920 interviewing you is a person. 00:16:29.160 --> 00:16:30.540 They are a human being. 00:16:30.750 --> 00:16:33.420 Their job is to find quality candidates to hire. 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.590 So the only thing you need to do is go in and don't focus so much about talking 00:16:37.590 --> 00:16:39.720 about yourself and what you've done and your experience and your skills. 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:43.380 Take the job description and say, I am the answer to all your problems. 00:16:43.380 --> 00:16:44.340 I've done this before. 00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:45.390 I can do it again. 00:16:45.690 --> 00:16:46.740 I'm a culture fit. 00:16:47.005 --> 00:16:51.505 Have a great attitude, smile, use positive language, keep it forward 00:16:51.505 --> 00:16:54.385 facing, solution oriented, so you wanna have that unique offering. 00:16:54.385 --> 00:16:56.365 It's like when you're buying a pair of jeans and you have three 00:16:56.365 --> 00:16:59.305 in front of you, what's going to make you go for that one pair? 00:16:59.724 --> 00:17:01.045 That's just the right color. 00:17:01.045 --> 00:17:02.724 They have that extra pocket in the back. 00:17:02.935 --> 00:17:06.625 You wanna have that little extra something that makes them really wanna advocate 00:17:06.625 --> 00:17:09.865 for you because then they get to close their laptop and go home for the day. 00:17:10.260 --> 00:17:13.290 Then after the interview, the most important thing after an interview is to 00:17:13.290 --> 00:17:16.950 send that thank you email, which again is part of the secret language of work. 00:17:16.950 --> 00:17:19.290 It's something that a lot of people don't know to do unless 00:17:19.290 --> 00:17:20.610 somebody told you to do it. 00:17:20.700 --> 00:17:24.030 It's not intuitive to send somebody a thank you email after a job interview. 00:17:24.360 --> 00:17:25.860 You just wanna send something really simple. 00:17:26.080 --> 00:17:28.120 Hey Kate, thanks so much for your interview today. 00:17:28.120 --> 00:17:29.740 I really enjoyed learning more about the role. 00:17:29.740 --> 00:17:31.780 I'm even more excited to be in the running now. 00:17:31.930 --> 00:17:35.950 Here again are three reasons why I think I would be a great fit for this position. 00:17:36.070 --> 00:17:39.340 1, 2, 3, keep it really short, and then I really look forward 00:17:39.340 --> 00:17:40.390 to hearing back from you herein. 00:17:41.490 --> 00:17:42.030 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:43.230 Manage that anxiety. 00:17:43.230 --> 00:17:45.870 Do something for the physical part of it and the mental part. 00:17:46.260 --> 00:17:50.790 Make sure that you understand the job and target your responses 00:17:50.790 --> 00:17:52.440 to their job description. 00:17:52.770 --> 00:17:54.840 Be the best pair of jeans you can be. 00:17:54.840 --> 00:17:56.130 I love that analogy. 00:17:56.490 --> 00:17:59.790 And then taking the time to show that you're really passionate and sending 00:17:59.790 --> 00:18:02.850 that thank you note, there's an added benefit to sending a thank you note. 00:18:02.850 --> 00:18:06.510 If there's anything you want to clarify or correct or add, you can do it there. 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:10.140 I think managing anxiety, tailoring the message to the job, making sure 00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:11.760 you'd say something that's memorable. 00:18:12.030 --> 00:18:14.070 Finally sending that thank you note, really good advice. 00:18:14.550 --> 00:18:17.310 Everything we've talked about so far, which has been things you 00:18:17.310 --> 00:18:18.840 do verbally, things you think. 00:18:18.930 --> 00:18:22.410 Do you have one bit of advice for what you do with your body? 00:18:22.770 --> 00:18:25.890 Do you have one suggestion for our non-verbal presence? 00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:27.660 Erin McGoff: Keep open body language. 00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:28.980 Definitely don't cross your arms. 00:18:28.980 --> 00:18:31.890 That's a defensive position and I think it's okay to cross your legs. 00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:34.620 Keep your hands visible on the table if you can. 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.400 Humans subconsciously don't like hidden hands, so you wanna keep visible hands. 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:43.290 Matt Abrahams: Great advice, open, visible hands, forward leaning, signals 00:18:43.290 --> 00:18:45.630 interest and intent, which is really good. 00:18:45.665 --> 00:18:49.200 Thank you for providing advice that you can do both in person and virtually. 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.750 Everything you described can be done via video as well. 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:55.020 Before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions. 00:18:55.020 --> 00:18:58.949 One I create just for you, and the other two are similar across everybody. 00:18:59.129 --> 00:18:59.850 You ready for that? 00:19:00.179 --> 00:19:00.720 Erin McGoff: I'm ready. 00:19:01.050 --> 00:19:04.110 Matt Abrahams: So you, for a living, give people advice. 00:19:04.290 --> 00:19:08.310 I'm curious, what's the best advice you've ever received? 00:19:08.729 --> 00:19:12.060 Erin McGoff: My dad is great at giving these little short snippets and he 00:19:12.060 --> 00:19:16.290 always says, from when I was younger, to be intentional and persist variously. 00:19:16.530 --> 00:19:19.080 So be intentional about where you wanna go and what you wanna do in life. 00:19:19.110 --> 00:19:22.620 Be specific about it, and then persist variously. 00:19:22.649 --> 00:19:27.030 So don't let any obstacle get in your way and every day be intentional and 00:19:27.090 --> 00:19:28.560 persist variously, what can we do today? 00:19:28.739 --> 00:19:30.090 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, fast and the furious. 00:19:30.090 --> 00:19:30.840 I think that's great. 00:19:30.840 --> 00:19:33.270 Have intention and act tenaciously towards it. 00:19:33.270 --> 00:19:33.810 Thank you. 00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:37.560 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:37.919 --> 00:19:39.719 Erin McGoff: Some of the best communicators I've seen are in my family. 00:19:39.899 --> 00:19:41.790 My parents communicate different ways. 00:19:41.790 --> 00:19:45.479 My mom is a very authentic and intentional communicator, and my dad 00:19:45.479 --> 00:19:49.709 is a very straightforward and intense communicator, and I think having those 00:19:49.709 --> 00:19:51.689 two, I got to see different sides of it. 00:19:51.689 --> 00:19:53.219 So I have to say both my parents. 00:19:53.459 --> 00:19:55.649 Matt Abrahams: It's really interesting how people answer this question. 00:19:55.649 --> 00:19:58.260 Some take people that are very close and near and dear to them and others 00:19:58.260 --> 00:20:01.709 pick people who are in the public eye, and you can learn from both. 00:20:02.385 --> 00:20:04.335 Alright, the final question. 00:20:04.635 --> 00:20:09.045 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:20:10.274 --> 00:20:12.524 Erin McGoff: Number one is to know your audience. 00:20:12.824 --> 00:20:16.064 Not all audiences are created equal, so if you're going into a meeting 00:20:16.064 --> 00:20:20.415 with a HR rep in a huge corporation, that's different than going into a 00:20:20.415 --> 00:20:22.094 meeting with a CEO of a small company. 00:20:22.274 --> 00:20:25.605 So you need to know your audience and know who you're talking to 00:20:25.665 --> 00:20:27.225 and know what their goals are. 00:20:27.584 --> 00:20:31.784 The second thing is to know you and to know your goals and your desired outcome. 00:20:31.969 --> 00:20:33.860 What do you want out of this conversation? 00:20:33.860 --> 00:20:36.620 So first, thinking about what they want out of the conversation and 00:20:36.620 --> 00:20:38.330 put yourself in their shoes first. 00:20:38.600 --> 00:20:41.090 And then think about what you want out of the conversation and then you 00:20:41.090 --> 00:20:42.469 can think about how those two align. 00:20:42.860 --> 00:20:46.100 And my third thing I would have to say is just smile. 00:20:46.699 --> 00:20:49.969 So many people when they get into sticky conversations or difficult 00:20:49.969 --> 00:20:53.629 conversations that they get so serious, they get a little defensive, just smile. 00:20:53.689 --> 00:20:56.000 The solution is out there and you're gonna find it together. 00:20:56.300 --> 00:20:59.000 So I think it's really important to always keep that collaborative spirit alive. 00:20:59.370 --> 00:21:03.659 Matt Abrahams: So know your audience, know yourself, be collaborative, and 00:21:03.659 --> 00:21:05.340 show up with a smile on your face. 00:21:05.429 --> 00:21:08.220 I think those are three important ingredients that would lead 00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:09.929 to a very successful outcome. 00:21:10.470 --> 00:21:13.620 Erin, I can see why you are so good at giving advice. 00:21:13.620 --> 00:21:16.139 It's practical, it's tactical, it's relatable. 00:21:16.139 --> 00:21:21.000 Thank you so much for your time, for your advice, and I wish you the best 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.159 of luck on The Secret Language of Work. 00:21:23.550 --> 00:21:24.600 Erin McGoff: Thank you so much, Matt. 00:21:24.600 --> 00:21:25.230 This was great. 00:21:27.470 --> 00:21:29.450 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:31.760 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:21:32.060 --> 00:21:34.610 To learn more about workplace best practices, please listen 00:21:34.610 --> 00:21:37.240 to Lorraine Lee in episode 202. 00:21:37.649 --> 00:21:41.540 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham. 00:21:42.690 --> 00:21:44.220 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:21:44.520 --> 00:21:46.740 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:47.129 --> 00:21:50.280 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:21:50.430 --> 00:21:52.500 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:21:52.710 --> 00:21:54.830 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. 00:21:55.139 --> 00:21:59.250 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:21:59.250 --> 00:22:01.350 Learning content, and our newsletter. 00:22:01.649 --> 00:22:05.040 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:22:05.100 --> 00:22:05.330 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:22:08.340 --> 00:22:12.375 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI 00:22:12.375 --> 00:22:15.074 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:22:15.254 --> 00:22:19.425 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of the Think Fast 00:22:19.455 --> 00:22:21.104 Talk Smart Learning Community.