Matt Abrahams: The effort you put in, in terms of practice and
preparation, have a huge impact on the quality of your communication.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I am excited to speak with Chiney Ogwumike.
Chiney is a professional basketball player, an NBA and WNBA analyst
for ESPN, and an advocate for gender equality in sports.
She, along with her sister Nneka, were star basketball players at Stanford.
Chiney, I am thrilled to have you join me.
Thanks for being here.
Chiney Ogwumike: Thanks for having me.
This is definitely a Bucket list podcast.
Matt Abrahams: Should we get started?
Chiney Ogwumike: Yeah, let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: Unlike some sports that have time for in-game planning
and communication, think of like a football huddle, basketball
is incredibly fast paced.
How did you manage to communicate effectively and quickly while on the go?
Chiney Ogwumike: The cool thing about sports is that it forces
you to communicate, whether you are someone that is vocal or not.
You have to be able to use your voice, find your voice.
That doesn't mean you have to talk a lot, it just means that you
have to communicate the important messages because we are all one team.
Communication is essential when it comes to team sports and basketball.
We'll test that because it's also a cardio sport.
So like you have to communicate, you have to look, you have to do nonverbal cues
like all of that matters when it comes to trying to achieve your ultimate goal.
Matt Abrahams: And would you work with your teammates to come up
with some shorthand or ways of communicating more quickly or in that
moment so you could perform better?
Chiney Ogwumike: Oh, absolutely.
One of the things that I learned from the greatest coach I've ever
played for, iconic, Tara VanDerveer, is, she's very big on symbols.
Because oftentimes there's so many things in this world that can be distractions,
that can be things that can be used to sort of deflect what your goal
is or what you're trying to achieve.
That coach, Tara, she taught us symbols, one, two, three, four, or just, you
know, shapes or just, you know, movements that can be read no matter who's
in the room, whether that room is a small practice gym or Maples Pavilion.
It's interesting because the best, most gratifying moments that I've had, not just
in basketball, also in, as a broadcaster, is when you're able to work with someone,
you're doing something at a high level and you are communicating even non-verbally.
Because it really shows you the essence of chemistry.
And I found that on the court, and I've also found that in the studio.
Matt Abrahams: Wow.
So this notion of trust really underlies a lot of this, and it's multi-channel.
It's not just the words you use, it's the symbols and the
non-verbal that really matter, and working on it makes a difference.
And I'd love that you've seen that both in your playing life, but in
also in your professional life.
Playing professional basketball requires performing under immense pressure.
I can't imagine what it feels like to shoot a free throw with thousands
of people yelling and screaming.
What mental strategies do you use to stay calm and focused during high
pressure situations, both when you're on the court, but also when you're on
the screen or in your everyday life?
Chiney Ogwumike: It sounds so corny, but it's true.
The older I get, the more I realize that these old adages actually make sense.
People are saying it for a reason and it keeps getting passed on
from generation to generation.
Practice makes perfect, and I love that you brought up the free throw
because that was where I had my fear.
I was very afraid as a freshman at Stanford University to shoot free
throws because I wasn't great at it.
But there is freedom on the other side of your fear.
Meaning if you go in there and you practice and you do the repetition,
a repetition of errors means it shows a lack of intelligence.
Like you keep making the same mistakes, it shows that you're not capable of
retaining information so that you can be better and erase those mistakes.
So for me, I was like a sixty percent free throw shooter when I came to Stanford.
And I'm not gonna lie, exactly what you talked about.
We'd have our, you know, Maple Pavilion is just rocking.
I would always tell people my hands didn't feel like my hands because I
was over conscious of what I looked like, what I felt like in that moment.
So what did I do?
I just went, during practice, after everything was done, to the corner,
and I just kept shooting free throw after free throw after free throw.
And now, when I got to the pros, I was so confident in my free
throws that people would say, Chiney, you know, end of practice.
It's either you make it or we have to run down and back.
I'd go up there and I'd knock down my free throw, and it was a mental thing.
My dad loves the mind over matter.
Giving yourself that notion that I have practiced this, I am a master of this.
All I have to do is do what I do, no matter the circumstance.
And so that's sort of what helped me when it came to addressing situations
that I felt like were bigger than me, but I knew I could meet that moment.
Matt Abrahams: So taking the time to confront the fear and
practice your way through it.
I love that notion of there's freedom on the other side of fear,
but you have to to commit and do the work and it has great payoffs.
And I think a lot of people listening in have fear of speaking in front of
others or standing up in high stake situations and, and there are things
that we can do to practice to help.
Taking classes, listening to a show like this, doing Toastmasters.
There are all these ways to get that practice and those reps in.
Thank you for sharing that.
You have had several coaches over your career, what have you noticed that
great coaches do to motivate their players and how have you taken some of
those learnings into what you do when you have to motivate other people?
Chiney Ogwumike: My mom has always had a saying that I have internalized, tiny
drops of water make a mighty ocean.
And when I think about great coaches and being able to address maybe fears, whether
it is communication or performance, I go to that saying, and it marries with
what coach Tara, I learned by watching her for four years, is showing up as
the same person each and every day.
And that to me is the number one thing that we can do to be able to put ourselves
in a position to have that growth.
I think oftentimes the best things in life are things you work out over long periods
of time, and so being in an environment where I have learned and watched so
many great coaches show up as the same person, whether it's win or loss, approach
preparation at the highest levels, and then know that you give your all no
matter what the outcome is gonna be,
that to me is what moves the goalpost forward inch by inch, not
just on those Hail Mary touchdowns.
It's like those incremental things that are sustainable.
Those tiny drops of water that builds an ocean that can change the
tides of how you perceive yourself.
Great people, great communicators, anyone that's working at something, at a skill,
show up as the same person each and every day and just chip away, chip away,
chip away at it, into the point where they turn that weakness into a strength.
And then after turning that into a strength, they go onto another
skill and harness that skillset to the point where you're a master.
Matt Abrahams: I really like your mother's saying of the, the
drops leading into the ocean.
I think that's a really powerful metaphor for what you're talking
about, which is it takes time and it takes practice, and the great coaches
focus on the, the little things.
It's not the, the, the big thing right away.
It's these little steps that get you to that greatness.
I do wanna talk a little bit about your move into broadcasting.
Uh, you know, broadcasting, especially sports broadcasting, is a male dominated
profession, although it is changing.
How have you dealt with being part of a profession where there aren't
lots of people similar to yourself?
Many of our listeners can relate to not being like others that
they work with in terms of age, gender, experience, et cetera.
How have you handled that and what have you done to help yourself
feel more comfortable but also help others see the value that you bring.
Chiney Ogwumike: So the biggest challenge that I had when I just
started becoming a broadcaster, and the way I sum it up, is this saying,
they see you before they hear you.
They judge you before they know you, but they still can't stop you.
And being in this field, it's very similar to playing because when I played and
I miss a shot and it's on national TV, everyone saw that I missed that shot.
Very similar to broadcast.
If I forget a player's name or I mess up on a breakdown.
Everyone's gonna see that.
That's my voice, that's my face.
But one thing I have found that I think people don't realize
is perfection is overrated.
Missing shots teach you how to make shots.
Making mistakes teach you how to protect yourself from having those
types of situations in the future.
And also, I think there's this thing in communication that people don't realize.
Not many people, if any, are perfect communicators.
We're gonna stutter, we're gonna stammer, we're gonna forget a
name, we're gonna forget a place.
What you do when that happens is what defines how you are as a communicator.
Those are the things where you accept your humanity, and I think that actually makes
you more relatable, being unapologetically yourself, being real, being honest.
As long as you believe in it and you are prepared and you have intentions
in when you are trying to communicate your message, the rest is a non-factor.
And so to me, that's the biggest thing.
Like communication is not flawless.
It's a learning exercise.
It's something you continue to grow at.
It's something you continue to master, but there's no one that is a absolute
to the T perfect communicator.
Matt Abrahams: At the end of the day, what you're really talking
about is authenticity, right?
The bottom line is be yourself, but this notion of there is no perfect
communication and stressing out over it.
Absolutely one hundred percent correct.
You need to come teach my class, because that's one of the biggest messages
that I try to get across to my MBA students is that there is no perfect.
There's better and there's worse.
But as you said, we learn from that.
And what I really like is, you know, the question I asked is, you're in
a space where there aren't a lot of people who have your background, have
your experience, and yet you have carved out a space because of that
authenticity, because of that willingness to just show up and be your best.
And if that's not perfect, that's okay.
Keep working at it.
And I think there's a lesson in there for all of us.
Now that requires a certain degree of confidence though.
And it sounds like that confidence has built in you through your preparation,
through the support system you have from your coaches, your family.
I'd like to talk specifically in detail about the broadcasting you do.
You on a regular basis are in front of large audiences.
What rules and practices have you found helpful in communicating a
lot of detailed information, and yet making it accessible and engaging?
It's fun to watch you break down a play or talk about something.
But when you think about it, you're covering a whole lot of
really technical information.
Do you rely on particular tools or strategies to do that?
Chiney Ogwumike: Yeah, there are a couple of strategies, and so I guess the easiest
way to answer this is to give you a little bit of insight into my routine.
So I typically come into the studio earlier than most analysts.
Because one thing I've realized, especially as being a woman
speaking on the MBA, people wanna be like, oh, but what do you know?
You never played in the NBA.
What I do know are numbers and facts.
So I love sitting down with my researchers because they're the ones
that help me substantiate my opinions.
In a dream world, having my blanket opinion would be great, but one
thing I've realized is people like opinion and also fact to back it up.
And so I spend a lot of time with our researchers for every argument
that I have, having numbers to substantiate what I'm gonna say.
Then I go up into the studio, and this is something that I think is very important
because a lot of times people think that, okay, I'm just gonna go and talk.
You have to get your mind right for what you're about to do.
And so I have two things that I do.
I say the Serenity prayer, which is God, grant me the serenity to accept
the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and
the wisdom to know the difference.
And then this is just something I always do too.
I say the angel of God, my guardian dear, that prayer.
I say that every time I get on a flight too, just because I feel
like I'm entering an environment.
And I did it before every game.
I did those two things before every basketball game too.
Just like giving my protection in this moment to my spirituality
and also understanding that I have power to really help shape
narratives that are my passions.
So that's step two.
So step one is research.
Step two is getting my mind into the place where I can perform.
And then step three is threes, actually.
What I have found is that people can take information the best in threes.
When you just have a blanket statement, people are looking for more.
You know, LeBron James is the greatest basketball player of all time.
Great.
Now tell me why.
Now, if you have a deluge of facts, then you might get lost in the sauce.
So three key points are very easy to be retained.
Matt Abrahams: So like you did as a player, there was a lot
of work that went into that.
I really appreciate several things you said.
First and foremost, you have to have your approach and mindset down,
and you found a routine that works for you to help you feel empowered
and to help you feel focused.
And that's critical.
Again, it comes down to the repetition, the practise, the learning, the detail.
And then I really like that you are mindful of how you actually
structure the information.
You don't just give people a deluge of information.
You are very mindful of making a clear point and then supporting
it, but not with too much detail.
And that's, I think, a lesson for all of us that we have to
prepare ourselves mentally.
We have to know our stuff, show up authentically, and then package it in a
way that people can remember it, and give them what they need but not too much more.
That was a great distillation of what I think makes for effective communication.
Before we end, I like to ask all my guests three questions.
One I create just for you, and the other two are similar
across everybody I interview.
Are you up for that?
Chiney Ogwumike: Yeah, absolutely.
I'm down.
Matt Abrahams: My first question is, if you had an opportunity to speak to young
women, women coming out of college, or of that age, starting their careers for the
first time, what's one bit of advice you would give them beyond what you've talked
about, in terms of show up, be authentic.
You know, is there something else you would share with young
women who are entering the workforce or their first career?
Chiney Ogwumike: I think it's such a unique time and I don't take these moments
for granted, and so what I would share to the rising generation of young women is
that you belong and so does your voice.
I think oftentimes in society we look at the idea of comparison being the thief of
joy instead of staying true to your own path and being authentically yourself.
To me, that's what has changed the game.
Matt Abrahams: So much richness in that response.
The thing that really resonated with me is the you belong.
Your voice matters, and I, I hope young women, young men, everybody
listens to that and takes that advice.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Chiney Ogwumike: The first person that comes to my mind is Lisa Leslie.
Probably a deceptive pick or an obvious pick 'cause I come from
the world of women's basketball.
But communication is not just what we say verbally, it's how you carry yourself.
What are you communicating to the world?
You know, I think that's one of the things that I didn't understand until I
had a platform and people look to me as someone that they could aspire to be.
If I'm walking down the street, how I carry myself is communication.
Just as much as me on the broadcast, just as much as me playing on the court.
And so Lisa, in being able to have her as a mentor, the way she carried
herself at the time, which was so huge at the genesis of the WNBA, coming
off of the 96th Olympics, changed the game for so many women in sports.
And then on top of it, to pivot into being a mother, a sister, an entrepreneur, a
broadcaster, an entertainer, just an icon.
How you carry yourself matters just as much as what you say.
And so I, I always shout her out.
Matt Abrahams: Lemme ask our final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Chiney Ogwumike: Preparation.
Authenticity.
And purpose.
Matt Abrahams: I love it.
Preparation, which doesn't surprise me based on what you've talked about,
authenticity as well, and then having a clear purpose in mind and certainly
you are somebody who is purpose driven.
Chiney, this has been phenomenal.
Thank you.
Not only did you teach a lot of players lessons on the court, you teach a lot
of people lessons in your broadcasting.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think
Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about leadership and communication from sports stars, listen
to episode 166 with Andrew Luck and episode 153 with Tara VanDerveer.
This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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