WEBVTT 00:00:02.603 --> 00:00:05.923 Matt Abrahams: We are all entrepreneurs, and we rely on three 00:00:05.923 --> 00:00:12.273 essential tools to be successful: communication, creativity, and trust. 00:00:12.874 --> 00:00:15.893 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:15.893 --> 00:00:17.553 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:17.903 --> 00:00:21.073 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:21.584 --> 00:00:23.813 Today I look forward to speaking with Eric Ries. 00:00:24.194 --> 00:00:28.313 Eric is an entrepreneur and the creator of The Lean Startup methodology, a 00:00:28.313 --> 00:00:32.393 global movement that has fundamentally transformed how businesses approach 00:00:32.524 --> 00:00:34.654 innovation and product development. 00:00:35.103 --> 00:00:37.974 He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, The Lean Startup: 00:00:37.974 --> 00:00:42.833 The Startup Way, and his new book is Incorruptible: Why Good Companies Go 00:00:42.833 --> 00:00:45.333 Bad and Great Companies Stay Great. 00:00:46.581 --> 00:00:47.441 Well, welcome, Eric. 00:00:47.481 --> 00:00:48.891 I am excited to chat with you. 00:00:48.891 --> 00:00:49.871 Thanks for being here. 00:00:50.361 --> 00:00:51.232 Eric Ries: I am delighted. 00:00:51.422 --> 00:00:52.172 Matt Abrahams: Shall we get started? 00:00:52.382 --> 00:00:52.732 Eric Ries: Let's do it. 00:00:53.141 --> 00:00:56.142 Matt Abrahams: Before we get to your more recent area of focus, I'd like 00:00:56.142 --> 00:01:00.411 to discuss some of the core concepts your Lean methodology advocates for, 00:01:00.411 --> 00:01:02.941 especially around communication. 00:01:03.322 --> 00:01:07.751 Can you provide us with an overview of Lean and the minimally viable approach 00:01:07.751 --> 00:01:09.542 and where communication fits into it? 00:01:10.031 --> 00:01:10.312 Eric Ries: Sure. 00:01:10.312 --> 00:01:15.171 Okay, so just real quick to back up, I'm a tech entrepreneur from way back when, 00:01:15.671 --> 00:01:19.512 and I wrote this book called Lean Startup in 2011 that kinda changed my life. 00:01:19.512 --> 00:01:23.321 Like, at its root, most people who are trying to do something new, whether they 00:01:23.321 --> 00:01:27.231 call themselves an entrepreneur or not, have this fundamental problem, which is 00:01:27.231 --> 00:01:32.882 like, how do I communicate progress when I'm in a condition of extreme uncertainty? 00:01:33.332 --> 00:01:35.782 And if you're gonna do something fundamentally new, how are we 00:01:35.782 --> 00:01:39.501 supposed to forecast how many you're supposed to have made? 00:01:39.501 --> 00:01:42.821 Like, it's actually a huge problem that we don't think about very often because 00:01:42.821 --> 00:01:47.181 conventional management systems are all based on this twentieth-century idea of 00:01:47.181 --> 00:01:51.162 extrapolating from a stable operating history to produce an accurate forecast. 00:01:51.671 --> 00:01:56.141 So Lean Startup at its heart is to take the business plan, the fiction writing 00:01:56.192 --> 00:02:00.641 part of entrepreneurship or of any kind of business enterprise, and extract 00:02:00.641 --> 00:02:04.641 from it the hypotheses, the leap of faith assumptions that have to be true 00:02:04.641 --> 00:02:06.031 for the business to be a good idea. 00:02:06.292 --> 00:02:09.702 And then instead of just pretending like we know those are true, we try to test 00:02:09.702 --> 00:02:13.131 them using scientific methods to create what we call validated learning using 00:02:13.131 --> 00:02:16.722 a structured experimental approach we call the minimum viable product or MVP. 00:02:17.071 --> 00:02:20.861 And the most critical concept is that if we discover that some element of 00:02:20.861 --> 00:02:24.501 the plan is not working, it's not correct, then we execute a pivot. 00:02:24.902 --> 00:02:27.652 Sorry, that's probably our most overused bit of business jargon that 00:02:27.652 --> 00:02:30.762 Lean Startup has contributed to the world, but we invented that term. 00:02:31.082 --> 00:02:34.821 The pivot is a change in strategy without a change in vision. 00:02:35.372 --> 00:02:37.311 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate you distilling it down. 00:02:37.342 --> 00:02:40.872 I wanna break down just a couple pieces of that, and I'd love as part of this 00:02:40.872 --> 00:02:44.912 for you to talk about the whole build, measure, learn loop that you talk about. 00:02:45.222 --> 00:02:46.732 You said something that might have caused some of our 00:02:46.732 --> 00:02:48.082 listeners and viewers to pause. 00:02:48.082 --> 00:02:51.311 You talked about a business plan as fiction writing. 00:02:51.582 --> 00:02:55.221 Can you break that down for us and then talk a little bit more about 00:02:55.221 --> 00:02:56.872 the build, measure, learn loop? 00:02:57.312 --> 00:03:01.292 Eric Ries: This is something that in our normal lives, we understand this concept 00:03:01.292 --> 00:03:04.961 perfectly fine, and then for some reason in business, we are trained to forget it. 00:03:05.471 --> 00:03:07.851 So I just want you to imagine if you start telling random people you 00:03:07.851 --> 00:03:11.312 meet on the street, "I know what is going to happen in the future," 00:03:11.762 --> 00:03:13.362 they will look at you very strange. 00:03:13.721 --> 00:03:17.691 But in business, for some reason, we're supposed to pretend that we can predict 00:03:17.691 --> 00:03:19.922 the future when obviously we can't. 00:03:20.351 --> 00:03:22.131 So the plan is not a problem. 00:03:22.131 --> 00:03:25.211 It's not a problem to imagine what the future might be. 00:03:25.721 --> 00:03:28.711 If something's going wrong, you assume it's because of one of the things on 00:03:28.711 --> 00:03:32.181 your plan that you haven't done, and this is a good assumption to make if 00:03:32.181 --> 00:03:33.732 your plan is one hundred percent correct. 00:03:33.771 --> 00:03:36.271 But if you acknowledge that you can't predict the future, how do you 00:03:36.271 --> 00:03:39.342 know that you're picking the right thing to do for an entrepreneur. 00:03:39.821 --> 00:03:43.232 And to me, I conceived of entrepreneurship like an idea factory. 00:03:43.819 --> 00:03:46.079 We don't ship physical objects. 00:03:46.450 --> 00:03:50.739 We are actually trying to maximize our own learning, our own understanding 00:03:50.779 --> 00:03:54.340 of the business because it's from that understanding that business models 00:03:54.340 --> 00:03:56.640 and other business outcomes can flow. 00:03:56.869 --> 00:03:59.189 That's the one thing that general managers in an existing 00:03:59.189 --> 00:04:00.509 business have that we don't have. 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:02.919 They actually know what their supply chain looks like. 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:04.019 They know who their customer is. 00:04:04.019 --> 00:04:05.380 They know that they have all this history. 00:04:05.380 --> 00:04:05.949 We don't have it. 00:04:05.949 --> 00:04:08.099 We have to manufacture that history. 00:04:08.619 --> 00:04:10.769 So I called it the build-measure-learn feedback loop. 00:04:11.210 --> 00:04:15.070 How much time elapses between when we have an idea about what we think 00:04:15.070 --> 00:04:18.229 customers want, what we think is going to work, and when we have 00:04:18.229 --> 00:04:22.769 validated, we have data that shows that that idea is correct or incorrect. 00:04:23.209 --> 00:04:25.220 And you were talking about the communication side of it. 00:04:25.569 --> 00:04:29.549 The thing I found the most difficult as an entrepreneur is how do I explain 00:04:29.549 --> 00:04:31.690 to people how they should prioritize? 00:04:32.179 --> 00:04:33.190 I had the vision. 00:04:33.409 --> 00:04:36.789 I have this grand idea, so you know, I can make stuff up no problem. 00:04:36.789 --> 00:04:40.589 But a company is defined not just by what the leader decides but the thousands 00:04:40.589 --> 00:04:44.269 upon thousands of micro-decisions that people have to make left and right. 00:04:44.269 --> 00:04:46.630 And unlike in a traditional business, in a startup, you're 00:04:46.699 --> 00:04:48.840 building new process all the time. 00:04:49.518 --> 00:04:51.147 Confronting problems for the first time. 00:04:51.147 --> 00:04:53.898 Well, build, measure, learn gives us a concrete, easy to 00:04:53.898 --> 00:04:56.318 explain, easy to evaluate answer. 00:04:56.358 --> 00:04:59.427 Whatever the thing is, if it optimizes our speed through this 00:04:59.427 --> 00:05:01.078 loop, then we do that version. 00:05:01.328 --> 00:05:02.457 Otherwise, we don't do it. 00:05:03.028 --> 00:05:05.318 Matt Abrahams: Having some kind of heuristic framework can be 00:05:05.318 --> 00:05:07.977 really, really helpful, and I appreciate you sharing that. 00:05:07.977 --> 00:05:13.007 And seeing entrepreneurship as idea generation, I think is really a novel 00:05:13.007 --> 00:05:16.997 way and really helps people understand the value that entrepreneurship brings. 00:05:17.448 --> 00:05:21.718 To be an entrepreneur, an idea generator, requires a healthy relationship 00:05:21.718 --> 00:05:23.518 with failure and negative feedback. 00:05:23.848 --> 00:05:28.488 How do you advise leaders to communicate their setbacks and to deal with the 00:05:28.488 --> 00:05:30.758 negativity that comes from those things? 00:05:31.268 --> 00:05:34.177 Eric Ries: This is a major communication error I see in leaders 00:05:34.177 --> 00:05:36.747 actually of all size companies, but especially of entrepreneurs. 00:05:37.098 --> 00:05:41.948 If you say that if something unexpected happens, that's a failure, you have 00:05:41.948 --> 00:05:45.157 literally created the preconditions for no learning to take place. 00:05:45.497 --> 00:05:48.268 Because the oldest lesson of the scientific method is that if you 00:05:48.268 --> 00:05:49.907 cannot fail, you cannot learn. 00:05:50.337 --> 00:05:54.787 So instead of conceiving of an unexpected result as a failure, we need 00:05:54.787 --> 00:05:56.278 to see it the way a scientist would. 00:05:56.308 --> 00:06:01.367 Understanding that learning is not a failure is a huge problem, especially 00:06:01.367 --> 00:06:06.227 in big companies where we preach the say:do ratio so religiously that we 00:06:06.227 --> 00:06:10.537 assume that anytime something unexpected happens, it must be because of incompetent 00:06:10.537 --> 00:06:12.278 planning or incompetent execution. 00:06:12.467 --> 00:06:15.477 Forgetting a third possibility, which is that the situation itself 00:06:15.477 --> 00:06:16.937 is too uncertain to forecast. 00:06:17.378 --> 00:06:21.098 And all of these Lean Startup techniques are not about celebrating failure. 00:06:21.128 --> 00:06:23.907 I actually don't like some people call it an embrace failure or 00:06:23.907 --> 00:06:25.537 celebrate failure philosophy. 00:06:25.577 --> 00:06:26.607 I don't accept that. 00:06:26.638 --> 00:06:27.958 I actually don't think that's right. 00:06:28.238 --> 00:06:29.037 That's not the issue. 00:06:29.168 --> 00:06:31.178 The issue is how do we define success and failure? 00:06:31.178 --> 00:06:35.208 And to me, if we learn what is necessary, we did it in an efficient way, in a 00:06:35.208 --> 00:06:39.238 way that was humane and scientific, that actually is a success, and it 00:06:39.238 --> 00:06:42.948 is a necessary step on our journey to building a breakthrough product. 00:06:43.278 --> 00:06:46.187 Matt Abrahams: So it really comes down to reframing what is a failure. 00:06:46.187 --> 00:06:49.848 And a failure, if you learn from it and you do it quickly and make 00:06:49.848 --> 00:06:52.248 adjustments, it is in fact a success. 00:06:52.357 --> 00:06:55.918 And that's critical for us to understand, but also for leaders 00:06:55.918 --> 00:06:57.857 to communicate that expectation. 00:06:58.357 --> 00:07:00.768 I'd like now to switch to your new book, Incorruptible. 00:07:00.907 --> 00:07:04.437 Can you share the central thesis and why you think it's so 00:07:04.437 --> 00:07:06.967 important at this particular time? 00:07:07.499 --> 00:07:09.399 Eric Ries: The Lean Startup movement, the startup movement 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.000 more broadly, I'm incredibly proud of what we've accomplished. 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.080 I'm incredibly proud of my role in it. 00:07:14.459 --> 00:07:16.799 But I've also seen the dark underbelly of this thing. 00:07:17.299 --> 00:07:21.579 And as I tell in the book, it really came home to me one day when I was talking 00:07:21.579 --> 00:07:24.980 to two different entrepreneurs on the same day, one of whom was just beginning 00:07:24.980 --> 00:07:27.949 his entrepreneurial journey, and one of whom was completing it, in a way. 00:07:28.129 --> 00:07:31.650 And the new entrepreneur, who I call the professor in the book to protect his 00:07:31.650 --> 00:07:36.090 privacy, he was really confused 'cause he was trying to create this breakthrough 00:07:36.090 --> 00:07:41.109 new technology, and his investors were, like, very amoral about it. 00:07:41.150 --> 00:07:43.979 He's actually trying to recruit, like, senior researchers. 00:07:44.229 --> 00:07:45.600 They have really tough questions. 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:48.479 They're asking him, "Okay, how do we know you're only gonna use this 00:07:48.479 --> 00:07:52.650 technology the way we intend?" He's like, "Well, I promise." "Oh, yeah? 00:07:52.859 --> 00:07:55.679 What if they fire you?" And he's like, "What am I supposed to say to that?" 00:07:55.749 --> 00:07:59.600 Meanwhile, I'm going to this event where we are commemorating a founder who had 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:01.479 left his company, but not voluntarily. 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:06.319 He had built billions of dollars of shareholder value, and yet his investors 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:07.839 wanted more, and they pushed him out. 00:08:08.550 --> 00:08:12.349 Despite doing everything right, the way we teach entrepreneurs today, 00:08:12.770 --> 00:08:14.650 that success will make them strong. 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:17.550 Success will give them power and therefore freedom. 00:08:17.989 --> 00:08:21.599 We forget to mention that the more successful your organization, the 00:08:21.599 --> 00:08:25.359 more valuable it is as a target for someone to steal from you. 00:08:25.849 --> 00:08:29.749 We take over a company, we betray its promises, we extract value from it. 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.499 Ironically, the most trustworthy companies are the most valuable to do that with. 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:35.609 Our grandparents would have called this corruption. 00:08:35.779 --> 00:08:39.569 And so I think we should bring that word back, expand its definition once again 00:08:39.569 --> 00:08:43.800 to involve any kind of economic activity that makes money without creating value. 00:08:43.800 --> 00:08:46.720 Anyway, I shared all this with the professor, and he asked me 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.200 the question that launched this whole book: Is it possible to 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:52.109 build an incorruptible company? 00:08:52.830 --> 00:08:54.069 And I was like, "Well, good news, bad news. 00:08:54.529 --> 00:08:56.639 The good news is, yes, I do believe it is possible. 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.700 There are these outlier companies that have been architected with the 00:08:59.700 --> 00:09:01.260 strength to resist this corruption. 00:09:01.880 --> 00:09:05.029 But the bad news is, since you've been following all the best practices 00:09:05.029 --> 00:09:08.380 we teach entrepreneurs about how to build, structure, and govern 00:09:08.380 --> 00:09:11.970 companies, you are not on track to accomplish this incorruptible 00:09:11.999 --> 00:09:15.729 outcome." And we, in fact, did put his company on a new and better path. 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:18.369 But I don't want to just do that for one company. 00:09:18.710 --> 00:09:20.559 I wanna do it for every company going forward. 00:09:21.339 --> 00:09:24.160 Matt Abrahams: Very powerful mission, very important mission. 00:09:25.003 --> 00:09:28.684 So you talk about several really intriguing ideas. 00:09:28.684 --> 00:09:33.024 One that I really liked was this notion of a culture bank. 00:09:33.213 --> 00:09:37.013 Tell us about it and, and tell us how communication plays out. 00:09:37.513 --> 00:09:40.284 Eric Ries: It's super cool because it's an idea that's very easy 00:09:40.284 --> 00:09:41.744 to explain and very hard to do. 00:09:41.773 --> 00:09:45.414 And everyone who I teach it to, the first time they always react the same way 00:09:45.414 --> 00:09:46.664 and they tell me that it's impossible. 00:09:47.014 --> 00:09:50.824 But I learned the technique from people who had built like high 00:09:50.824 --> 00:09:52.373 integrity, high culture companies. 00:09:52.373 --> 00:09:53.693 Strong culture companies is what I mean. 00:09:54.193 --> 00:09:55.383 And it's actually really simple. 00:09:55.744 --> 00:10:00.304 The problem with communicating about trustworthiness is that trustworthy 00:10:00.304 --> 00:10:05.483 actions, right actions always score as ROI negative almost by 00:10:05.483 --> 00:10:10.194 definition, because the benefit is intangible, but the costs are tangible. 00:10:10.703 --> 00:10:13.793 So what we need to do is we need to give employees a way to think 00:10:13.793 --> 00:10:17.624 about, to reason about the value of the trustworthiness asset. 00:10:17.983 --> 00:10:20.714 In order to do that, we need to think about it like an asset, like 00:10:20.714 --> 00:10:22.133 a thing you put in a bank account. 00:10:22.534 --> 00:10:23.994 Now, the culture bank idea is this. 00:10:24.424 --> 00:10:30.344 Whenever an employee makes a sacrifice on behalf of a customer or employer 00:10:30.344 --> 00:10:33.764 or any other stakeholder, they do a right action that comes with a cost. 00:10:34.334 --> 00:10:36.283 That is a deposit in the culture bank. 00:10:36.283 --> 00:10:37.944 You created an asset. 00:10:38.293 --> 00:10:43.454 When you tell a story about that, you're helping educate everyone in your company 00:10:43.454 --> 00:10:45.043 that this is the way we do things. 00:10:45.043 --> 00:10:46.293 This is what we reward. 00:10:46.673 --> 00:10:47.923 This is what we're really about. 00:10:48.454 --> 00:10:51.363 And of course, when you do the reverse action, that's a withdrawal. 00:10:51.793 --> 00:10:55.124 The great leaders, the mission-driven leaders that I really admire, they have 00:10:55.124 --> 00:10:57.304 this ethos I call harder is easier. 00:10:57.764 --> 00:11:00.283 They have these principles that they're really committed to. 00:11:00.463 --> 00:11:04.584 People who are acting with integrity, they recognize that because they have 00:11:04.584 --> 00:11:08.603 these principles, every plan, everything they do is gonna have extra difficulty 00:11:08.603 --> 00:11:09.853 that it wouldn't have otherwise had. 00:11:09.993 --> 00:11:12.664 But instead of shying away from this, as a lot of leaders do, 00:11:12.813 --> 00:11:15.793 they learn to love it because it gives them a teaching opportunity. 00:11:15.834 --> 00:11:19.073 Every time they stop and say, "Sorry, it's not good enough. 00:11:19.073 --> 00:11:20.503 Sorry, we have to do it right. 00:11:20.503 --> 00:11:24.524 Sorry, we have to do this," it gives them an opportunity to communicate a 00:11:24.524 --> 00:11:28.393 cultural value and make an extra deposit in the culture bank that turns these 00:11:28.393 --> 00:11:31.954 ideas from best, they make life harder in the short term, but in the long 00:11:31.954 --> 00:11:33.474 run they make everything else easier. 00:11:34.251 --> 00:11:37.662 So the rule I learned from Todd Park, the rule is as a leader, 00:11:38.021 --> 00:11:42.322 only make deposits, never make withdrawals from the culture bank. 00:11:42.871 --> 00:11:48.091 It sounds like an impossible standard, but actually it's not that hard. 00:11:48.682 --> 00:11:53.111 The great Clay Christensen once said that it is much harder to do the right 00:11:53.111 --> 00:11:56.201 thing a hundred percent of the time than ninety-eight percent of the time. 00:11:56.592 --> 00:12:01.472 So when in real life, it's much more valuable to have decision heuristics 00:12:01.472 --> 00:12:05.142 that you can communicate that just says, "Look, when a customer calls into the 00:12:05.142 --> 00:12:09.181 hotline and they have a problem, and we have the power to solve that problem, 00:12:09.852 --> 00:12:11.751 we don't need to do an ROI calculation. 00:12:11.751 --> 00:12:14.481 We don't need to check the fine print of the policy to see if there's some 00:12:14.481 --> 00:12:16.332 way we can get out of paying the claim. 00:12:16.881 --> 00:12:17.951 Let's just solve the problem. 00:12:18.111 --> 00:12:21.282 Let's just trust that if we always do that, in the long run, 00:12:21.352 --> 00:12:23.082 it will be beneficial to us." 00:12:23.832 --> 00:12:28.172 Matt Abrahams: The focus, the intense focus on what the most precious asset is, 00:12:28.271 --> 00:12:31.672 and that is the trust and relationship that the companies have, is critical. 00:12:32.411 --> 00:12:34.451 I don't know if you set out to write a communication 00:12:34.451 --> 00:12:36.282 book, but you absolutely did. 00:12:36.472 --> 00:12:39.452 And everything we're talking about, I mean communication, trust, 00:12:39.561 --> 00:12:43.291 empathy, demonstration, I mean all of it, alignment, these are all 00:12:43.291 --> 00:12:46.982 communication topics, and I really appreciate how you've illuminated them. 00:12:48.277 --> 00:12:50.958 I'd like to end the way we end every one of our episodes 00:12:50.958 --> 00:12:52.218 where I ask three questions. 00:12:52.218 --> 00:12:54.468 One I'm gonna make up just for you, and two, I've been asking 00:12:54.468 --> 00:12:56.087 everybody across all these episodes. 00:12:56.087 --> 00:12:56.677 Are you up for that? 00:12:56.937 --> 00:12:57.467 Eric Ries: I'm up for it. 00:12:57.467 --> 00:12:57.897 Sounds good. 00:12:58.298 --> 00:12:58.717 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:12:59.097 --> 00:13:03.758 In what you're doing now and what you did with Lean Startup, you were having 00:13:03.758 --> 00:13:08.067 to be a, in some cases, a singular voice advocating for things that, 00:13:08.067 --> 00:13:11.508 that at least the current environment wasn't listening to or looking for. 00:13:12.248 --> 00:13:16.668 Do you rely on certain strategies to help get your point across and at 00:13:16.668 --> 00:13:18.117 least get people to listen to you? 00:13:18.117 --> 00:13:21.368 It doesn't mean they have to agree with you, but what's your approach 00:13:21.368 --> 00:13:25.337 when you are the sole person advocating for something that's really important? 00:13:25.697 --> 00:13:27.947 Eric Ries: By far, the hardest part is the inner part of it. 00:13:28.508 --> 00:13:32.997 Human beings are hardwired for a mimetic desire, meaning to fit 00:13:33.037 --> 00:13:35.298 in and to be part of the crowd. 00:13:35.298 --> 00:13:38.837 So when you're communicating something that is outside the Overton window 00:13:38.837 --> 00:13:41.778 of what is seen as acceptable, it is very lonely and difficult. 00:13:41.778 --> 00:13:45.087 And I can still remember very vividly when people would 00:13:45.087 --> 00:13:46.337 yell at me about Lean Startup. 00:13:46.368 --> 00:13:51.537 It was seen as, like, really outlandish and impossible, so I must be lying. 00:13:51.568 --> 00:13:54.918 But I remember, because before I was a public advocate for these ideas, 00:13:54.918 --> 00:13:56.117 I advocated for them privately. 00:13:56.157 --> 00:14:00.318 Like, I was just a person in a job, and people would ask me, "How do you think 00:14:00.318 --> 00:14:02.648 we should get a certain thing done?" And I would tell them, and they would 00:14:02.648 --> 00:14:03.837 be like, "That doesn't make sense. 00:14:03.888 --> 00:14:04.907 That's not the best practice." 00:14:05.297 --> 00:14:08.738 The key to this is to really meet people where they are while 00:14:08.738 --> 00:14:09.797 still telling them the truth. 00:14:10.288 --> 00:14:11.648 Very difficult to do, of course. 00:14:11.648 --> 00:14:14.598 So what we have to do is we have to find a point of human connection 00:14:15.108 --> 00:14:16.398 between their ideas and my ideas. 00:14:16.398 --> 00:14:20.877 What are we trying to do in common that can be a point of departure for 00:14:20.877 --> 00:14:22.428 us to go on the journey together? 00:14:22.498 --> 00:14:25.367 And then the other thing that is really important about that is you try 00:14:25.367 --> 00:14:28.098 to figure out how far on the journey are they willing to go with you. 00:14:28.648 --> 00:14:33.278 They may not be ready for everything, but can we make some progress? 00:14:33.708 --> 00:14:36.517 And we treat their morale. 00:14:36.598 --> 00:14:39.458 The most vital resource is the willingness to keep going. 00:14:40.007 --> 00:14:43.557 So it's like, how do we cultivate our sense of cohesion and morale 00:14:43.557 --> 00:14:44.778 and our desire to keep going? 00:14:44.778 --> 00:14:47.168 We see that as a resource, and then we try to go bit by bit. 00:14:47.888 --> 00:14:49.348 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate you sharing that. 00:14:49.687 --> 00:14:54.858 This idea that you really have to connect to your audience and really 00:14:54.858 --> 00:14:57.877 understand them, and then take it one step further and say, how 00:14:57.877 --> 00:15:00.467 far are they willing to go today? 00:15:00.648 --> 00:15:02.398 Doesn't mean that's where they're gonna end up, but how 00:15:02.398 --> 00:15:03.747 far are they willing to go today? 00:15:04.217 --> 00:15:05.058 Really important. 00:15:05.803 --> 00:15:10.103 So second question, who is a communicator you admire and why? 00:15:10.614 --> 00:15:14.313 Eric Ries: I already mentioned Todd Park, but there was a time when he had 00:15:14.313 --> 00:15:15.893 left, he's a healthcare entrepreneur. 00:15:16.223 --> 00:15:19.624 He's done multiple very successful healthcare startups, but he also 00:15:19.624 --> 00:15:21.534 spent a stint in government service. 00:15:21.534 --> 00:15:24.073 He was one of those people called by the Obama administration to come 00:15:24.073 --> 00:15:26.524 out of the private sector and help make government more efficient. 00:15:26.524 --> 00:15:29.384 He served as the chief technology officer of the Department of 00:15:29.384 --> 00:15:30.294 Health and Human Services. 00:15:30.663 --> 00:15:34.124 I remember once inviting him to speak at an entrepreneurship conference, and 00:15:34.124 --> 00:15:40.093 he got up on stage, and he just started spinning this tale of the patriotic 00:15:40.274 --> 00:15:44.614 feeling that he had about serving his country in this way and the need for 00:15:44.614 --> 00:15:49.084 people of goodwill to come together to be of service and to revitalize 00:15:49.084 --> 00:15:50.803 this new generation of the government. 00:15:50.854 --> 00:15:53.044 It was just, it was utterly spellbinding. 00:15:53.564 --> 00:15:55.843 And he spoke for like forty-five minutes or an hour. 00:15:55.843 --> 00:15:57.643 He just like blew right past his time. 00:15:57.873 --> 00:15:59.424 Not a single person complained. 00:15:59.753 --> 00:16:01.884 Everyone in the audience was absolutely rapt. 00:16:02.323 --> 00:16:05.753 But what I admired about it was it was, first of all, very authentic to him. 00:16:05.753 --> 00:16:06.794 It wasn't grandiose. 00:16:06.904 --> 00:16:10.973 It was very personal, very humble, and he connected with the audience. 00:16:10.973 --> 00:16:14.843 He was speaking to them as entrepreneurs, as a fellow entrepreneur, but 00:16:14.873 --> 00:16:17.843 inviting them to imagine this other side of entrepreneurship that 00:16:17.843 --> 00:16:19.303 they would never have thought of. 00:16:19.534 --> 00:16:21.233 You know, and really that's why we wanted him to be there. 00:16:21.233 --> 00:16:22.954 So yeah, I've always admired him as a communicator. 00:16:23.413 --> 00:16:26.254 Matt Abrahams: I like that he was able to really connect in the story he told. 00:16:26.254 --> 00:16:30.843 He's able to connect and set a vision for people that people can really see. 00:16:30.843 --> 00:16:35.644 And given your history of being somebody out there early in some of these ideas, 00:16:35.644 --> 00:16:37.303 I can see why you would be drawn to him. 00:16:38.123 --> 00:16:42.434 Our final question, Eric, what are the first three ingredients that go into 00:16:42.434 --> 00:16:44.914 a successful communication recipe? 00:16:45.494 --> 00:16:50.724 Eric Ries: You have to give the communication the care that it deserves. 00:16:51.333 --> 00:16:54.184 So the truth is definitely the first thing and most important thing. 00:16:54.184 --> 00:16:57.553 And I think entrepreneurship especially, you know, but all forms of leadership, 00:16:57.583 --> 00:17:00.403 it is a truth-seeking profession at the end of the day because we can't 00:17:00.403 --> 00:17:03.624 do anything if we're out of alignment with what reality makes possible. 00:17:04.264 --> 00:17:07.384 But the second thing I was talking about is this idea of quality or craft. 00:17:07.384 --> 00:17:10.483 Like I was talking to Yvon Chouinard, the absolutist, about quality. 00:17:10.483 --> 00:17:13.704 He used to say that quality was an objective function, which 00:17:13.733 --> 00:17:15.013 everyone thought was so crazy. 00:17:15.204 --> 00:17:18.674 You're like, every product has a quality that it deserves. 00:17:18.873 --> 00:17:20.474 It's not in the eye of the beholder. 00:17:20.503 --> 00:17:21.233 It's absolute. 00:17:21.263 --> 00:17:23.233 I don't know if that's true for every product, but it's 00:17:23.233 --> 00:17:24.853 definitely true in communication. 00:17:25.123 --> 00:17:29.573 If you're communicating something that is precious to you, then it deserves a 00:17:29.573 --> 00:17:31.334 certain level of craft and attention. 00:17:31.434 --> 00:17:33.704 And the third thing is certainly authenticity. 00:17:34.123 --> 00:17:37.733 That is every communication is actually very personal, whether 00:17:37.733 --> 00:17:39.353 you pretend it isn't or not. 00:17:39.713 --> 00:17:42.613 And I feel like the way we teach writing, especially because we consume 00:17:42.613 --> 00:17:45.644 so much journalism and journalism is obsessed with the view from nowhere 00:17:46.053 --> 00:17:50.244 where we're creating like a faux objectivity, it's just so fake. 00:17:50.244 --> 00:17:54.824 It's just so hard to believe anybody who's trying to present themselves as objective. 00:17:54.824 --> 00:17:58.034 It's so much better to root yourself in your actual experience. 00:17:58.333 --> 00:18:02.784 And even if you're trying to be objective, to say so, this is my bias 00:18:02.863 --> 00:18:06.064 that I'm worried about, and this is how I correct it, to actually give 00:18:06.064 --> 00:18:09.384 people transparency into the process by which the communication was made. 00:18:09.763 --> 00:18:11.013 I think that's an essential part. 00:18:11.604 --> 00:18:12.744 Those would be my top ingredients. 00:18:13.394 --> 00:18:16.174 Matt Abrahams: Truth, quality, and authenticity. 00:18:16.553 --> 00:18:20.513 Certainly demonstrated in the work you've done and clearly beneficial 00:18:20.513 --> 00:18:21.763 to all of us to think about. 00:18:21.793 --> 00:18:25.524 Eric, it has been a true pleasure to talk to you about both of the really 00:18:25.524 --> 00:18:29.074 important concepts that you have written about and you've dedicated your life to. 00:18:29.113 --> 00:18:31.274 Thank you so much for spending time with us today. 00:18:31.314 --> 00:18:32.053 Eric Ries: Thank you very much. 00:18:32.053 --> 00:18:32.894 Thank you for taking the time. 00:18:34.854 --> 00:18:36.863 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:18:36.863 --> 00:18:38.844 Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:18:38.844 --> 00:18:42.384 To learn more about lean development and communication, please listen 00:18:42.384 --> 00:18:44.714 to episode 56 with Steve Blank. 00:18:44.714 --> 00:18:48.733 To learn more about ethics, check out episode 54 as well. 00:18:48.773 --> 00:18:53.914 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:18:54.344 --> 00:18:55.883 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:18:55.883 --> 00:18:58.534 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:18:59.084 --> 00:19:02.373 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:19:02.373 --> 00:19:04.243 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:19:04.694 --> 00:19:07.493 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:19:07.903 --> 00:19:11.793 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:19:11.793 --> 00:19:13.754 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:19:14.123 --> 00:19:17.114 Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community 00:19:17.114 --> 00:19:19.023 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:19:19.023 --> 00:19:24.233 You'll get access to video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an 00:19:24.233 --> 00:19:26.954 AI coach, and book club opportunities. 00:19:27.273 --> 00:19:31.963 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of the Think Fast, 00:19:32.174 --> 00:19:34.023 Talk Smart Learning Community.