Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hear part two of my conversation with Clea Ramos, a
student studying Computer Engineering and Studio Arts at Bucknell University.
More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
So, yeah, let me ask you then, like, what are your current view as a
soon-to-graduate student, especially Gen A... Gen, um, A.I., you know, became
available to us two and a bit years ago, but really became like pretty dominant
probably in the last, let's call it a year and a half, something like that.
What, how has that been like for you as a student?
I remember when ChadGPT came out, I believe the winter of my sophomore year,
and students were using it for everything at the time, and it was still pretty new,
so I would just hear about it here and there, and because it's Liberal Arts,
I have friends in Engineering, I have friends in Humanities, And I know the
Humanities have been pretty strict on it because their assignments comprise
of mostly writings and readings, and they don't want you to ask ChatGPT to
summarize it or to write you a paragraph that you're supposed to write yourself
because you're not learning at that point.
So I've taken a few classes in humanities and some professors are
very strict about it in that sense.
But in, in the tech world and CompSci, it's a really great tool for debugging.
So you can put your code in it and say, I have an error here.
Can you please help me fix it?
And it won't do it 100 percent of the time completely correct.
So sometimes you have to edit your query and be more specific.
Uh, but I remember I was very hesitant to use it because it felt like cheating,
and it was kind of a morality issue.
And I've seen students who just use ChadGPT to finish their whole
coding assignment for them, which is against the point of doing
the coding assignment yourself.
So, Uh, our professor, a lot of professors in, uh, STEM and in coding, specifically
CompSci, um, are for the use of it, sometimes as long as you cite it or
as long as you know the implications of it and use it as a tool rather
than using it to do your work for you.
So in that sense, I think it is a very efficient tool because it can save you
hours of debugging or if you know how to do something really quick, you can ask.
chat, GBT, or any AI to generate it for you.
And I think some people are afraid that it will take over our jobs,
but it doesn't have, it doesn't have that human aspect to it, like we were
saying earlier, it doesn't, it doesn't recognize the value that you're creating.
So knowing that is, is really important to consider.
So I would say I am for using ChatGPT, as long as you're using
it responsibly and as a tool, and it's very, it's a very powerful tool
to accomplish things efficiently.
But just to be sure you can't rely on it.
I, I, by the way, I'm, I'm also very much for using it e... responsibly.
And I also think a lot about, you know, for the convenience that it affords
you and like, how else does it change the way we think about this world?
So like.
I think about like in your case, for example, I can already hear
from certain engineers that says, no, but Clea, you're wrong.
It's the suffering of like spending hours looking for that
really, really little tiny bug that makes you force you to learn.
I used to be like that.
You did?
Yeah.
And what changed or what are you, do you still think that way?
Well, because I was, I felt like, again, like it was cheating, like I didn't learn
from it, but now if you don't use it, sometimes you're behind because other
people will use it and generate it so much more quickly than you can learn.
Learn it.
And because sometimes with a search engine, you type in your question
and you have to click on links.
And sometimes it's not exactly what you're looking for, whereas using
AI, you type in your question and it will provide more resources and
exactly what you want, depending on how clear you are in your comment.
So it's that aspect of being efficient, um, allows you to kind of
get ahead and do things much faster.
And I, let me, let me just keep asking that, right?
So if you got done something faster.
What does that do?
Does it give you more time to, what is, what do you do with the time, like the
hours of agony that it saved you, right?
Yeah, but what is that like?
So what now?
Like you've just saved four hours of looking for this really tiny bug
that it just Turns out to be you missed the semi colon somewhere.
Happens, right?
Yes.
The semi colon.
And, uh, so, so, so now it saved you that time.
What do you do with that time because of that?
Yes, so, I think, um, that it does save time, but I, I make sure that I go back
and read it to make sure I understand how.
The, the code is being produced and what it actually means, not just copy paste.
Cause then at that point, I'm not learning anything because sometimes with coding
assignments, it just takes a long time.
And a lot of the time is debugging where you can just push it in and
then it'll output what you need.
So, um, I think it's more prevalent, especially in my senior design
project where we're on a timeline.
So we have a year long project with a client and we're supposed
to deliver a product at the end.
And we, since I'm project manager, I'm setting the deadlines for each team
member, you should be done with your.
Block by this date, we need to be done integrating by this date.
So by saving time that way, it allows us to make sure we're on track and
on progress for our next steps in the timeline, because in the real
world, especially with software engineering, you have things to deliver.
You have a product to get out to a client on time.
So that time efficiency is important.
And I find by the way, that real world learning is so nice and so important.
I wanted to talk a little bit about this time aspect.
A little bit more, if that's all right with you, I sort of have this thesis that
first of all, in your project, you're the project manager, you probably are both
a project manager and you probably do some of the project as well, I assume,
but you also take on that role of making sure that the things run, run, run on
time, uh, from everyone and they all sort of get to, you know, can come, can
coexist together harmoniously, right?
Mm hmm.
Number one is that I, I have found, at least for myself, sort of pre-AI
assistant, and this is like, I mean, I think people think about sometimes like,
Oh, you're in an education environment.
It's different from if you're in the real world environment,
it is supposed to be painful.
It's supposed to be this, supposed to be that.
Um, I don't know, I don't really fully agree with it.
You know, at my company, we have, you know, like engineers and
they work together and do things.
They value learning very much themselves.
They will use the tools though, in whatever ways that
they think is best for them.
And best sometimes means more efficient, but sometimes it's less
efficient, but in order to understand it further, um, just, you know, it's
something that you have to understand.
And especially sort of in, in the current climate of AI getting more and
more capable in coding and all that.
Yeah.
I mean, being able to debug faster means that they have less, they, they spending
less energy and time to the debugging, which some people might say that that's
where the art of, you know, coding is, this is, you're supposed to suffer
through that, um, so that you get better.
But I will also argue that I observe in our, in our, with our engineers, we may
not have been able to ship something at all if we didn't get that efficiency.
So.
And forget the fact that you have, in your case, a client to deliver it to, if
you didn't get to finish the entire cycle and you slow down the rest of the team
and all of the rest of it, you also get less learning done because you were able
to get through less of the whole process.
Yeah.
So in some sense, that speeding up of certain aspect of it, it
also gave you more opportunity.
To do, to experience things that you never would get to be able
to, to be, to be able to do.
It's almost like if you were training for a marathon, but somehow you can
never run past the 20 mile mark.
You would never know what the last six miles look like.
Mm-hmm . Yes, for sure.
Yeah.
So you kind of, you know, like the efficiency gained also means you
now get to run the last six miles.
Mm-hmm . And having the entire experience of finishing 26.2 miles.
Is maybe better than having the struggle at Model 15 to 18 so much.
Yes.
It's a balance.
Yeah, it's a balance.
Some people will just use chat and then not, not have that struggle, and then
it's frustrating to figure it on your own.
Just basically flat out like cheated, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
So it's a balance, like at some point.
You, you need to balance the efficiency because sometimes we get stuck on a
problem and then we use chat and then at some point you try everything and it's
not worth spending time over debugging.
You might as well just go to the professor, go to office
hours, get it solved in class.
So it's a balance of like using efficiency, but to some point it just
doesn't work and you, and you just have to figure it out and you do end
up putting the hard work in, it's just, you're skipping over the things that are
more easily solvable by using ChatGPT.
I think you're absolutely right.
And this is the part that I sometimes, you know, try to try to try to look at
is you, you are, if you are someone who.
Actually just have it do everything for you and you just flat out
just not spending any time.
You're just, you know, basically doing a poor job.
What happens is that you get away for a very short time anyway,
because, you know, you, like you said, it's a year long project.
The project gets more and more complex as it goes and things are interrelated and
you really have to understand it for it to actually, for you to even contribute.
Because it builds.
Yeah, if you are that team member who's just like, I'm just going to
paste in whatever, you know, after a couple of months, maybe the first
couple of months you are like, really like just slacking and not doing
anything, but after a couple of months, I don't think you can even contribute
at that team because you'd be lost.
It'll be like outsourcing someone watching a. You know, eight
season-long, you know, series, you, you've got to watch to know the plot.
You can't follow it, you know, if you're not part of it.
Um, and I find that to be sort of like, so, I mean, you, you'd learn that lesson
relatively quickly, I think, you know, if, if your projects are real world enough.
I think it's problematic when the projects are not real world enough,
where you are just asking problem sets and individual essays, because then,
yeah, it's really easy for someone to just go, yeah, I just did that.
I passed it.
It has nothing to do with the next project anyway.
Yeah.
So then, you know, like that.
That efficiency suddenly becomes very, so that you can cheat and it doesn't,
it doesn't, there's no concerns, you know, you weren't really being
asked to build on, on top of it.
I can't imagine in your project that your team members could survive
if they just kind of, you know, not actually know what's going on.
Um, I find it to be in my team, you know, like if I have an engineers who
basically just kind of, they don't really know what's going on, like.
They can't even last one discussion because we'll be talking about something,
be like, well, what do you think of this?
And they wouldn't be able to, they wouldn't know because they
didn't understand, you know, why the decision was made before.
So it would be like, like I said, just asking you what happened with
last week's episode on severance.
And you're like, well, I didn't watch it then, but you don't know.
You just simply don't know.
Right.
You can't cheat your way out of that.
Um, and so.
And it's not even so much about, I think like people want to do it at that point.
Um, they actually just want to do the project.
And I also want, um, have one observation that I have found too,
which is because it's efficient.
We have started to be able to.
At least in our own engineering and design projects that we've
been able to do sometimes
sort of additional iterations that previously we wouldn't
be able to afford to do.
Cause we only had time to do so much.
And you'd kind of have to kind of go, well, this is what we have time for.
This is what we're going with.
Sometimes even knowing that it may not be the best solution, but we don't have time
to experiment with three other solutions.
Yes.
But now I feel like that we are starting to find ourselves that if we make it so
that we're just going to almost like let it generate something it's rough and we're
not going to actually use it, but we're going to do three different approaches
so that we can experiment a little bit and then we can like make some decisions.
Yeah.
That prototyping phases.
So yeah, it's like, it's tremendous, you know, It's tremendous, like the ability
to prototype and then prototyping is maybe is one of those processes that is
very well known in that design thinking in the engineering, uh, design sort of
process, but maybe it's less so in, um, I don't know, um, writing an essay on
history, um, But historians have their own, like, unique ways of thinking
that I think is really useful too.
So like, I think these are the kind of things that multiple, multidisciplinary
sort of thinking is really going to enhance the way that we, we
function, especially with this sort of explosion of, you know, AI and so on.
So what do you think as someone who's, so you talked about it as a student,
what do you think, you know, as someone who is about to graduate, do you feel
Prepared to go into the workforce.
Do you know, like this hopefully doesn't scare you.
I don't think you should be scared, but, um, I did see that, um, I think
Meta had said that they had the, in 2025, they will not hire any junior
level developers, um, because they are.
Finding that, you know, they're going to either, you know, have AI
agents or something to replace that.
It definitely creates other problems, which is like, if you can't be junior, how
do you become the senior level developer?
There's a, there's a bit of a, you know, they're creating a bit of a chicken and
the egg, you know, breaking the cycle somewhere in their, um, Salesforce.
Also said that they will in 2025, they're freezing...
I think all hiring because they are refocusing and trying to figure out
what their engineering needs are.
It doesn't mean that they will forever not hire, but they're saying in 2025,
we're not hiring at all, we're putting a freeze on hiring our engineers, which
is unheard of for that company before, because every year they would just hire
thousands of people at the same time.
There is a lot of needs for engineers everywhere else, but I'm just sort
of like painting a picture for people to know, like, as in, you know, like
beginning of 2025, this is what the, the climate looks like right now as
someone who's about to graduate and in the job market networking and so on.
What, uh, how do you feel about this?
Thank you for telling me about it.
Cause I, I didn't know about that until now.
So that is a little concerning, especially knowing that the job market
is also really competitive in terms of the computer science software space.
Um, I've been hearing of people having a hard time getting software
positions, internships, and jobs.
And.
I think that that's really discouraging, especially if they're
using AI to replace those careers.
Cause when it's, like you said, taking away from new graduates and it's also
taking away that, that human aspect that I was talking about earlier,
although it is efficient and maybe may save the company some money, you're,
you're taking away those opportunities of learning and building your sense
of, um, community within that company.
So that's, that is interesting.
But I, I really, by the way, I, I didn't mean to, um, scare you
during this conversation here, Clea.
Um, but I also think that there is now a groundswell of people like yourself,
who has the skills, who has the thinking process, who understand projects, who
understand how to work, you know, to ask, how to understand, how to ask questions.
That's actually one of the skills that is necessary for people to, for example,
go with a much more entrepreneurial, you know, uh, path where there are
software engineers or engineers who decide that, Hey, you know what?
I'm making something up here.
There wasn't a, a way for, for the Filipino community to, beyond
Bucknell, but like in maybe in your area, wherever you end up being, you
know, and, um, and that now you can.
Because of the speed of development, because of the new tools, because of,
you know, the access to some of this, these AI tools, um, that I, I heard an, a
very interesting interview that said, we wonder at what point we're going to see
the first solo entrepreneur billionaire, which is a really interesting, um, sort
of, and I mean, billionaire is more like a symbol that I don't think, you know,
I don't even think any of like mere models like me, um, can even understand
how much money that actually is.
But, but my point, I think the point of it is more like you can potentially
be extremely successful at this job and that you might even be, um, able to do
it with far fewer resources than, than what used to be, you know, you don't have
to become the Google, you know, that has employees, many hundreds of thousands
of employees in order to do this really difficult job, it almost feels like
there's a lot more, um, opportunities for people to be able to say, you know
what, if I think that bringing water to...
you know, places in need is the thing that needs to exist in the world.
And there is not a business that is doing that right now.
I can do it because using the efficiency that's created by AI, um,
what used to have taken, you know, an insurmountable amount of resource.
Just to do the communication and the design and the PR and all that I might
in 2026 create agents that can take care of a lot of that for me so that I
can do things that are more meaningful.
I think that's a really different kind of future.
I think it's scary on one hand, but it's also like exhilarating on the other hand.
Yes, for sure.
That's so interesting because I, I've spoken to people who, when
networking, they didn't like major in computer science or anything,
but they learned it on their own.
And I guess when learning on your own, Chat, GPT, or AI
helpers are such a important and helpful tool to learn as well.
So having that aspect to help you do things on your own rather than always
relying on having to be taught or having to buy all of these resources
in order to get things done is so empowering because you can really
do anything on your own these days because of all of the resources,
open source platforms available.
But it's also not necessary.
It doesn't have to be really solo.
But imagine if you can run a tremendously impactful business or organization,
right, that do meaningful things, but it's just 10 of you, um, right.
It could also be this.
You know, but, but it would have in the past would have
required a hundred people, right.
And it, like that to me is a really interesting part of the world that I
don't think a lot of people are exploring because, you know, there's a lot
about replacing current jobs and, and.
And it might, I think that it will create, replace some jobs, maybe even
many jobs, um, especially what would be considered entry level jobs, or maybe
even to a certain degree, mid level jobs.
Um, but I think that.
You know, there, it, it feels like to me, kind of like what I was
saying before, okay, you save time over here, but you actually end
up spending the time elsewhere.
So now you're able to push it further.
Yes.
And so I feel like that, you know, taking something away from one
side will, will inevitably get balanced out on the other side too.
Um, but it, it is difficult, you know, especially for folks who
You know, this was forced on them.
This was a natural progression.
You know, if I've had this job for the last 25 years, um, suddenly I
being forced to re-skill, up-skill, change skills, change jobs too.
To, to deal with this, you know, new world, it, it feels
difficult and feels uncomfortable.
Um, but I, I kind of, you know, I was really interested in hearing sort of from
someone who's about to graduate, right?
I also think about, you know, for people who are, you know,
freshmen now at Bucknell, right?
Like when they graduate.
Yes.
What does the world look like then?
Because you are already seeing a little bit of this.
In 2025, right?
Mm-hmm . I like 2028.
Like, that's gonna be really different, right?
Mm-hmm . And I think the younger generations now have, they have so
much ambition and now they have a lot of resources and more tools.
So I see them having more and more progress and more and more, um,
really cool projects coming out that they're really passionate about.
And I know they're gonna achieve so much more.
So.
Well, you are part of the younger generation, Clea.
Just wanted to say you, you have those tools as well, and
you, you'll get to use them too.
Um, I, I hope that, by the way, that it wasn't, uh, you didn't
get scared from that, but, um.
I still have hope, you know, cause, because I've.
I feel like what you were saying, it's not enough to be just an engineer.
You need to have all of those skills and that interdisciplinary, which I think
AI could never replace all of those like human aspects that makes a person a person
because what, how you provide value in your work or like you said, your past
experience and your identity, how all of those aspects of your identity and
what you've been through affect how you do your current work, which A.I. Could
never have that like history built in.
Yeah, and and that's right.
Actually, A.I. cannot do that for us.
Um, you have to be the one who you can have a lot of experience.
Someone can read aloud the experiences to you, but you still
have to go through the heart.
The hard work is how do you process that?
And how do you.
Make sense of all those experiences.
I want to say that all that's exactly what your reflections did.
You know, like doing the project itself is one thing, but the reflection is
the part where you had the experience.
Now you get to process it and you were able to make pretty big
jumps every time, you know, you build one from one to the other.
And those are the things that stays forever, right?
Like the C sharp code that you wrote in for whatever that's going
to get obsolete, unfortunately.
Right.
But, but the ability to sort of take the thinking and like
combine those experiences.
And then figuring out what kind of thinker you are, you know, as you would
solve problems, means that by the time you write the next piece of code that
is not even in C sharp, will, you will still be able to apply those, right.
And, but it's really about even like taking coding to design and all of
that is even make it even stronger.
I really believe that.
I think that's, that's, that's what it's going to be.
And you were talking about augmented reality and virtual reality before.
I mean, that's another really like.
To me, surprisingly unspoken area too, you know, I was thinking about,
you know, like if you are training to become a nurse in 2025 right
now, and you're going to graduate in 2028, we talked about that, right?
It may very well be that you are no longer, or it may very well be that
the... you know, currently, I think a lot of nursing majors have to learn
a humongous amount of content, like the material is staggering, right?
Like every procedure that they're supposed to know, every condition,
there's all the protocols, right?
I kind of kept imagining with engineers like you, who's
going to create a safe, secure.
Accurate, non hallucinogenic version of some kind of AR glasses
that a nurse would be able to wear comfortably, you know, all day.
And being able to say, like, generally speaking, if I, you know, have a
patient who is having a certain kind of symptoms or is having
certain kind of pain or knowing that they are having a heart attack.
That your
AR will helpfully just go, this is without going through like public servers
and stuff, you know, like within the hospital, like it's always safe and it's
not sharing that material with anyone.
Being able to just go here, here are the next seven steps.
Here are some other additional things that you need to know.
This is the timing in which you need to do them.
Etc, etc. Not that the nurse should just purely count on that.
Having that assistant would be so incredibly useful.
Yes.
And being able to sort of say, like, did I do them?
Or did I, like, or you, maybe, maybe a heart attack is common enough
that you just know that, right?
But maybe you come across something that you've never done, or you
haven't done in three years.
Mm. Right?
Like, typically, by the way, like many doctors and nurses in some
of those situations, they actually have to look things up, right?
They have to, and this is also where sometimes you, or sometimes some things
you missed and then you, you know, this is where like practice lawsuits
come in and so on and so forth.
But I could imagine that, you know, a well developed tool like
that could be, you know, life changing for, for all of us, right?
In medical care.
Yeah.
And it would allow for, yeah, it would allow for someone to not count on what
if the nurse got tired because they did already, it's their 12th hour working that
day and it's been a crazy day, you know, of all kinds of, you know, high adrenaline
events that happen over and over again.
Right.
It happens.
Right.
And, and what if you can create that tool and, and what, what does that
change for that nursing students?
You know, like, what if they end up spending a little less
energy on acquiring all of the content, which is an investment.
For me, when I see it, I feel like it's an insurmountable amount of content
that in fact, it just keeps growing because, you know, people are researching
more, discovering more how to even.
Keep that in the, in our brain, you know?
Yes, it's impressive the work they do and that there's so
much risk in Incorporating.
They put their lives at stake every single minute because you never know like you
can Contract whatever it is that's causing someone to be sick, for example, right?
And so you're doing all of that Like, I almost imagine, like, wow, you would
be the person, you'll be the kind of people who would have the skills to
create the AR technology that can help someone like that, and in turn, it will
help save countless lives, and it will also change their perspectives a lot too.
So, I remember.
You know, as a kid, I don't know whether you felt that way too, but as a kid,
I mean, if I'm an Asian family, like there is some default professions that
are cool to do, doctor being one, right?
Yes, for sure.
And, um, I remember.
Learning the little, littlest bit about being a doctor.
And it was like, well, it's a lot of studying.
It was like a huge amount of memorizing, like lots and lots and lots of facts and
big words and, and, and, and systems.
And I remember thinking.
That's just not for me.
Now I speak with a lot of doctors, people who had gone through medical
training that says, well, yeah, that is actually like legitimately really,
really hard, but that's not all I do.
In fact, that's not what I do.
So they think about the world very differently already, but I have this
like, you know, impression that this is an unattainable thing because.
It's so, it's so much about memorizing a huge amount of content and that
I'm just like, that's not for me.
Like I may be able to do it, but like, you know, like I can't, I don't find that to
be a good use of my, my, my, my, my time.
But if that got taken out of the equation, maybe not completely,
but like the pressure of like being tested on those things as being your,
the majority of what you do, right.
It may mean that providing care for someone, becoming the, the, the,
the, uh, providing, making someone else's healthy, um, becomes, you
know, part of the equation, like the bigger part of the equation.
It may change a lot of people's minds.
Yes.
Yeah.
I have a similar story of how people are saying, I was asking, um, A
friend who graduated and I was asking her, Oh, we have to learn so much
technical things in our ECEG classes.
Like how much of it do you actually use similar to how the doctors have
to learn all of these procedures and memorize a lot of things, but they don't
maybe directly use it in their work.
So I was asking her, how much do you actually.
Use this because she's an electrical engineer.
And she was saying not too much, all of the things that we learned,
because I think the processes at school are just teaching you how to
learn, teaching you the fundamentals and what you really do in a real time
job and work is like you learn, like the processes that your company uses
and you need to learn how to learn.
And that's what school prepares you for.
And being able to find those things that you need to learn and learn by yourself.
I think that's what AI is really great.
For being able to learn fast on the job when you need to know these things,
maybe not off the top of your head, but you have like that background.
That's beautifully said.
Clea, thank you so much for spending all this time with me.
I really, really enjoyed our conversation.
You are brilliant.
I, I, um, I am so impressed with, you know, this, you know, what
you have to say and how you think about the world is fascinating.
Um, I think that, um, those of us, I'd be listening to this again, but,
and those of us, I think are also listening right now who are, you know,
from my generation or the, you know, the, even the older generations should
look at, you know, should listen closely to what you are telling us.
And what you, how you think about a world, what makes sense and, and,
and, and how you are, you know, what your real experience is like.
So that, you know, for those of us who are in any positions of like making those
kinds of decisions, uh, thinking about like the future of education, maybe.
So I know that there are people who are Deans and, you know, Department
Chairs who have the ability to, to influence where this goes.
I think we have a lot of work to do.
I think we have a lot to do to make sure that our, you know, like, not
only for you graduating in 2025, but what about those who are graduating in
26, 27, 28, like we gotta, we gotta do these things quickly to, to make sure
that you are not going to be, you know, getting out to the world and, and, and
feel like that you are sort of, you know, you're not able to contribute,
um, because the real world looks too different from what was presented to
you in, in, in an education environment.
Um, and I'm so glad that you're at Bucknell who.
Which, like you said, does not do that.
Um, it allows you to ask questions, like to work on real world project.
So you hear from here, Bucknell university, please go check it out.
Um, I think many people already know this.
I'm in school is very well known, but I, for people who, who are really
not, um, you know, who are thinking about like, you know, engineering,
for example, like Clea, uh, was.
Should think about what it means to go to a program that has equal emphasis on
liberal arts, um, on sort of these ability for you to ask, ask questions yourselves
and to lead teams, um, and do all these other things that, uh, is, is going to
go beyond just, you know, 25 really, really hard problem sets, um, right.
Um, and, um.
And for those, uh, last reminder for those who are looking for the next
generations of the best talents, I think clear here is certainly one of them.
If you are creating those glasses for AR, you know, for an AR company,
um, you know, contact her quickly or she would be off the market.
All right.
Thank you all so much.
And, uh, Clea, I really appreciate this conversation.
I hope that we can get to, um, keep in touch and, uh, let
me, let me know how things go.
Okay.
Yes.
Thank you again so much for this opportunity.
I really enjoyed reflecting on my, my ePortfolios and all the projects
I've done and how much I've learned since then and how much Digication
has helped me to, to reflect on these experiences and to showcase them as well.
So thank you.
Well, I, I, I appreciate the kind words.
Take care and, uh, good luck with everything.
And congratulations, uh, uh, in advance on your, your completion of your degrees.
Thank you so much, Jeff.
Okay, take care.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye bye.
This concludes our conversation.
To hear our next episode, be sure to subscribe to Digication Scholars
conversations on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
The Digication Scholars Conversation Series is brought to you by Digication,
a technology platform powering the most innovative e-portfolio
programs in K12 and higher education.
Our website can be found at Digication dot com.
If you enjoyed today's conversation, please like,
subscribe, and share with a friend.
Thanks for tuning in.