1 00:00:00,820 --> 00:00:03,080 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 2 00:00:03,370 --> 00:00:04,689 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 3 00:00:05,319 --> 00:00:09,859 In this episode, you will hear part two of my conversation with Clea Ramos, a 4 00:00:09,859 --> 00:00:14,680 student studying Computer Engineering and Studio Arts at Bucknell University. 5 00:00:15,619 --> 00:00:19,640 More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's 6 00:00:19,710 --> 00:00:21,629 Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 7 00:00:21,630 --> 00:00:24,900 Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on 8 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:26,650 YouTube or your favorite podcast app. 9 00:00:28,050 --> 00:00:33,580 So, yeah, let me ask you then, like, what are your current view as a 10 00:00:33,580 --> 00:00:41,890 soon-to-graduate student, especially Gen A... Gen, um, A.I., you know, became 11 00:00:41,939 --> 00:00:48,560 available to us two and a bit years ago, but really became like pretty dominant 12 00:00:48,770 --> 00:00:52,150 probably in the last, let's call it a year and a half, something like that. 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,459 What, how has that been like for you as a student? 14 00:00:57,495 --> 00:01:03,505 I remember when ChadGPT came out, I believe the winter of my sophomore year, 15 00:01:03,845 --> 00:01:08,675 and students were using it for everything at the time, and it was still pretty new, 16 00:01:08,675 --> 00:01:13,295 so I would just hear about it here and there, and because it's Liberal Arts, 17 00:01:13,295 --> 00:01:17,170 I have friends in Engineering, I have friends in Humanities, And I know the 18 00:01:17,170 --> 00:01:20,710 Humanities have been pretty strict on it because their assignments comprise 19 00:01:20,710 --> 00:01:25,119 of mostly writings and readings, and they don't want you to ask ChatGPT to 20 00:01:25,130 --> 00:01:28,550 summarize it or to write you a paragraph that you're supposed to write yourself 21 00:01:28,559 --> 00:01:30,260 because you're not learning at that point. 22 00:01:30,599 --> 00:01:34,170 So I've taken a few classes in humanities and some professors are 23 00:01:34,170 --> 00:01:35,919 very strict about it in that sense. 24 00:01:36,299 --> 00:01:42,340 But in, in the tech world and CompSci, it's a really great tool for debugging. 25 00:01:42,350 --> 00:01:45,390 So you can put your code in it and say, I have an error here. 26 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:46,730 Can you please help me fix it? 27 00:01:46,770 --> 00:01:50,970 And it won't do it 100 percent of the time completely correct. 28 00:01:50,980 --> 00:01:54,689 So sometimes you have to edit your query and be more specific. 29 00:01:55,049 --> 00:01:59,039 Uh, but I remember I was very hesitant to use it because it felt like cheating, 30 00:01:59,049 --> 00:02:01,460 and it was kind of a morality issue. 31 00:02:01,669 --> 00:02:07,179 And I've seen students who just use ChadGPT to finish their whole 32 00:02:07,179 --> 00:02:09,909 coding assignment for them, which is against the point of doing 33 00:02:09,910 --> 00:02:11,319 the coding assignment yourself. 34 00:02:11,329 --> 00:02:17,730 So, Uh, our professor, a lot of professors in, uh, STEM and in coding, specifically 35 00:02:17,790 --> 00:02:22,429 CompSci, um, are for the use of it, sometimes as long as you cite it or 36 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,809 as long as you know the implications of it and use it as a tool rather 37 00:02:26,810 --> 00:02:29,130 than using it to do your work for you. 38 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,580 So in that sense, I think it is a very efficient tool because it can save you 39 00:02:33,580 --> 00:02:37,570 hours of debugging or if you know how to do something really quick, you can ask. 40 00:02:37,645 --> 00:02:40,785 chat, GBT, or any AI to generate it for you. 41 00:02:40,825 --> 00:02:44,825 And I think some people are afraid that it will take over our jobs, 42 00:02:44,825 --> 00:02:48,535 but it doesn't have, it doesn't have that human aspect to it, like we were 43 00:02:48,535 --> 00:02:52,405 saying earlier, it doesn't, it doesn't recognize the value that you're creating. 44 00:02:52,705 --> 00:02:56,145 So knowing that is, is really important to consider. 45 00:02:56,164 --> 00:03:01,045 So I would say I am for using ChatGPT, as long as you're using 46 00:03:01,045 --> 00:03:05,115 it responsibly and as a tool, and it's very, it's a very powerful tool 47 00:03:05,115 --> 00:03:06,915 to accomplish things efficiently. 48 00:03:07,359 --> 00:03:09,950 But just to be sure you can't rely on it. 49 00:03:10,810 --> 00:03:16,489 I, I, by the way, I'm, I'm also very much for using it e... responsibly. 50 00:03:16,710 --> 00:03:26,020 And I also think a lot about, you know, for the convenience that it affords 51 00:03:26,020 --> 00:03:32,370 you and like, how else does it change the way we think about this world? 52 00:03:33,140 --> 00:03:33,890 So like. 53 00:03:34,350 --> 00:03:39,420 I think about like in your case, for example, I can already hear 54 00:03:39,430 --> 00:03:44,510 from certain engineers that says, no, but Clea, you're wrong. 55 00:03:45,429 --> 00:03:48,989 It's the suffering of like spending hours looking for that 56 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,970 really, really little tiny bug that makes you force you to learn. 57 00:03:54,180 --> 00:03:55,750 I used to be like that. 58 00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:56,440 You did? 59 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:56,780 Yeah. 60 00:03:56,870 --> 00:04:00,110 And what changed or what are you, do you still think that way? 61 00:04:01,115 --> 00:04:05,954 Well, because I was, I felt like, again, like it was cheating, like I didn't learn 62 00:04:05,954 --> 00:04:13,205 from it, but now if you don't use it, sometimes you're behind because other 63 00:04:13,205 --> 00:04:16,964 people will use it and generate it so much more quickly than you can learn. 64 00:04:17,450 --> 00:04:17,750 Learn it. 65 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,349 And because sometimes with a search engine, you type in your question 66 00:04:21,349 --> 00:04:22,530 and you have to click on links. 67 00:04:22,530 --> 00:04:25,670 And sometimes it's not exactly what you're looking for, whereas using 68 00:04:25,690 --> 00:04:30,180 AI, you type in your question and it will provide more resources and 69 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:33,550 exactly what you want, depending on how clear you are in your comment. 70 00:04:33,830 --> 00:04:38,670 So it's that aspect of being efficient, um, allows you to kind of 71 00:04:38,670 --> 00:04:40,850 get ahead and do things much faster. 72 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,920 And I, let me, let me just keep asking that, right? 73 00:04:44,050 --> 00:04:47,100 So if you got done something faster. 74 00:04:47,940 --> 00:04:48,710 What does that do? 75 00:04:48,750 --> 00:04:53,130 Does it give you more time to, what is, what do you do with the time, like the 76 00:04:53,150 --> 00:04:55,820 hours of agony that it saved you, right? 77 00:04:56,090 --> 00:04:57,349 Yeah, but what is that like? 78 00:04:58,010 --> 00:04:58,840 So what now? 79 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,669 Like you've just saved four hours of looking for this really tiny bug 80 00:05:03,679 --> 00:05:07,159 that it just Turns out to be you missed the semi colon somewhere. 81 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:08,220 Happens, right? 82 00:05:08,350 --> 00:05:08,490 Yes. 83 00:05:09,630 --> 00:05:10,170 The semi colon. 84 00:05:10,260 --> 00:05:13,919 And, uh, so, so, so now it saved you that time. 85 00:05:14,070 --> 00:05:16,459 What do you do with that time because of that? 86 00:05:16,919 --> 00:05:23,340 Yes, so, I think, um, that it does save time, but I, I make sure that I go back 87 00:05:23,349 --> 00:05:26,390 and read it to make sure I understand how. 88 00:05:26,485 --> 00:05:31,155 The, the code is being produced and what it actually means, not just copy paste. 89 00:05:31,335 --> 00:05:34,965 Cause then at that point, I'm not learning anything because sometimes with coding 90 00:05:34,965 --> 00:05:36,805 assignments, it just takes a long time. 91 00:05:37,015 --> 00:05:39,914 And a lot of the time is debugging where you can just push it in and 92 00:05:39,914 --> 00:05:42,175 then it'll output what you need. 93 00:05:42,534 --> 00:05:47,310 So, um, I think it's more prevalent, especially in my senior design 94 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,680 project where we're on a timeline. 95 00:05:49,770 --> 00:05:53,180 So we have a year long project with a client and we're supposed 96 00:05:53,180 --> 00:05:54,949 to deliver a product at the end. 97 00:05:55,230 --> 00:06:00,369 And we, since I'm project manager, I'm setting the deadlines for each team 98 00:06:00,369 --> 00:06:01,980 member, you should be done with your. 99 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,870 Block by this date, we need to be done integrating by this date. 100 00:06:05,890 --> 00:06:10,080 So by saving time that way, it allows us to make sure we're on track and 101 00:06:10,090 --> 00:06:13,509 on progress for our next steps in the timeline, because in the real 102 00:06:13,509 --> 00:06:16,910 world, especially with software engineering, you have things to deliver. 103 00:06:16,910 --> 00:06:19,769 You have a product to get out to a client on time. 104 00:06:20,039 --> 00:06:22,330 So that time efficiency is important. 105 00:06:22,650 --> 00:06:26,690 And I find by the way, that real world learning is so nice and so important. 106 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,700 I wanted to talk a little bit about this time aspect. 107 00:06:31,010 --> 00:06:35,520 A little bit more, if that's all right with you, I sort of have this thesis that 108 00:06:36,669 --> 00:06:43,059 first of all, in your project, you're the project manager, you probably are both 109 00:06:43,060 --> 00:06:46,500 a project manager and you probably do some of the project as well, I assume, 110 00:06:46,610 --> 00:06:51,299 but you also take on that role of making sure that the things run, run, run on 111 00:06:51,310 --> 00:06:55,760 time, uh, from everyone and they all sort of get to, you know, can come, can 112 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,410 coexist together harmoniously, right? 113 00:06:58,710 --> 00:06:58,980 Mm hmm. 114 00:06:59,435 --> 00:07:09,895 Number one is that I, I have found, at least for myself, sort of pre-AI 115 00:07:10,075 --> 00:07:18,695 assistant, and this is like, I mean, I think people think about sometimes like, 116 00:07:19,485 --> 00:07:21,254 Oh, you're in an education environment. 117 00:07:21,254 --> 00:07:23,804 It's different from if you're in the real world environment, 118 00:07:23,824 --> 00:07:25,275 it is supposed to be painful. 119 00:07:25,275 --> 00:07:26,825 It's supposed to be this, supposed to be that. 120 00:07:27,674 --> 00:07:30,825 Um, I don't know, I don't really fully agree with it. 121 00:07:31,420 --> 00:07:35,670 You know, at my company, we have, you know, like engineers and 122 00:07:35,690 --> 00:07:37,310 they work together and do things. 123 00:07:37,830 --> 00:07:40,659 They value learning very much themselves. 124 00:07:41,870 --> 00:07:45,629 They will use the tools though, in whatever ways that 125 00:07:45,679 --> 00:07:47,720 they think is best for them. 126 00:07:47,729 --> 00:07:51,210 And best sometimes means more efficient, but sometimes it's less 127 00:07:51,210 --> 00:07:55,380 efficient, but in order to understand it further, um, just, you know, it's 128 00:07:55,380 --> 00:07:57,060 something that you have to understand. 129 00:07:58,265 --> 00:08:04,925 And especially sort of in, in the current climate of AI getting more and 130 00:08:04,945 --> 00:08:06,875 more capable in coding and all that. 131 00:08:07,475 --> 00:08:07,895 Yeah. 132 00:08:07,905 --> 00:08:14,985 I mean, being able to debug faster means that they have less, they, they spending 133 00:08:14,985 --> 00:08:18,794 less energy and time to the debugging, which some people might say that that's 134 00:08:18,794 --> 00:08:23,034 where the art of, you know, coding is, this is, you're supposed to suffer 135 00:08:23,034 --> 00:08:25,015 through that, um, so that you get better. 136 00:08:25,335 --> 00:08:31,555 But I will also argue that I observe in our, in our, with our engineers, we may 137 00:08:31,555 --> 00:08:36,145 not have been able to ship something at all if we didn't get that efficiency. 138 00:08:37,595 --> 00:08:38,095 So. 139 00:08:39,850 --> 00:08:44,860 And forget the fact that you have, in your case, a client to deliver it to, if 140 00:08:44,860 --> 00:08:50,710 you didn't get to finish the entire cycle and you slow down the rest of the team 141 00:08:50,770 --> 00:08:57,120 and all of the rest of it, you also get less learning done because you were able 142 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,439 to get through less of the whole process. 143 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:01,080 Yeah. 144 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:01,420 Yeah. 145 00:09:01,420 --> 00:09:06,410 So in some sense, that speeding up of certain aspect of it, it 146 00:09:06,430 --> 00:09:09,140 also gave you more opportunity. 147 00:09:09,709 --> 00:09:13,219 To do, to experience things that you never would get to be able 148 00:09:13,219 --> 00:09:14,989 to, to be, to be able to do. 149 00:09:15,470 --> 00:09:19,520 It's almost like if you were training for a marathon, but somehow you can 150 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,980 never run past the 20 mile mark. 151 00:09:22,410 --> 00:09:24,930 You would never know what the last six miles look like. 152 00:09:24,930 --> 00:09:27,000 Mm-hmm . Yes, for sure. 153 00:09:27,005 --> 00:09:27,185 Yeah. 154 00:09:27,465 --> 00:09:32,760 So you kind of, you know, like the efficiency gained also means you 155 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,920 now get to run the last six miles. 156 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:40,230 Mm-hmm . And having the entire experience of finishing 26.2 miles. 157 00:09:40,790 --> 00:09:49,230 Is maybe better than having the struggle at Model 15 to 18 so much. 158 00:09:49,235 --> 00:09:49,335 Yes. 159 00:09:49,885 --> 00:09:50,615 It's a balance. 160 00:09:51,030 --> 00:09:52,080 Yeah, it's a balance. 161 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:57,310 Some people will just use chat and then not, not have that struggle, and then 162 00:09:57,310 --> 00:09:59,920 it's frustrating to figure it on your own. 163 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:01,750 Just basically flat out like cheated, right? 164 00:10:01,750 --> 00:10:02,050 Yes. 165 00:10:02,319 --> 00:10:02,740 Yeah. 166 00:10:02,740 --> 00:10:02,741 Yeah. 167 00:10:02,755 --> 00:10:04,655 So it's a balance, like at some point. 168 00:10:05,490 --> 00:10:10,400 You, you need to balance the efficiency because sometimes we get stuck on a 169 00:10:10,410 --> 00:10:14,469 problem and then we use chat and then at some point you try everything and it's 170 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,800 not worth spending time over debugging. 171 00:10:17,230 --> 00:10:19,520 You might as well just go to the professor, go to office 172 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,450 hours, get it solved in class. 173 00:10:21,729 --> 00:10:25,740 So it's a balance of like using efficiency, but to some point it just 174 00:10:25,740 --> 00:10:29,160 doesn't work and you, and you just have to figure it out and you do end 175 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,245 up putting the hard work in, it's just, you're skipping over the things that are 176 00:10:33,245 --> 00:10:35,935 more easily solvable by using ChatGPT. 177 00:10:36,275 --> 00:10:37,185 I think you're absolutely right. 178 00:10:37,185 --> 00:10:41,395 And this is the part that I sometimes, you know, try to try to try to look at 179 00:10:41,405 --> 00:10:46,435 is you, you are, if you are someone who. 180 00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:50,290 Actually just have it do everything for you and you just flat out 181 00:10:50,290 --> 00:10:51,630 just not spending any time. 182 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,800 You're just, you know, basically doing a poor job. 183 00:10:54,410 --> 00:10:57,409 What happens is that you get away for a very short time anyway, 184 00:10:57,770 --> 00:11:00,729 because, you know, you, like you said, it's a year long project. 185 00:11:00,770 --> 00:11:04,549 The project gets more and more complex as it goes and things are interrelated and 186 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,849 you really have to understand it for it to actually, for you to even contribute. 187 00:11:09,219 --> 00:11:09,719 Because it builds. 188 00:11:10,875 --> 00:11:13,574 Yeah, if you are that team member who's just like, I'm just going to 189 00:11:13,584 --> 00:11:18,605 paste in whatever, you know, after a couple of months, maybe the first 190 00:11:18,605 --> 00:11:21,894 couple of months you are like, really like just slacking and not doing 191 00:11:21,895 --> 00:11:25,074 anything, but after a couple of months, I don't think you can even contribute 192 00:11:25,115 --> 00:11:27,205 at that team because you'd be lost. 193 00:11:27,215 --> 00:11:32,569 It'll be like outsourcing someone watching a. You know, eight 194 00:11:32,569 --> 00:11:37,930 season-long, you know, series, you, you've got to watch to know the plot. 195 00:11:38,319 --> 00:11:42,060 You can't follow it, you know, if you're not part of it. 196 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:48,389 Um, and I find that to be sort of like, so, I mean, you, you'd learn that lesson 197 00:11:48,389 --> 00:11:52,800 relatively quickly, I think, you know, if, if your projects are real world enough. 198 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,090 I think it's problematic when the projects are not real world enough, 199 00:11:57,420 --> 00:12:03,870 where you are just asking problem sets and individual essays, because then, 200 00:12:03,889 --> 00:12:07,350 yeah, it's really easy for someone to just go, yeah, I just did that. 201 00:12:07,879 --> 00:12:08,520 I passed it. 202 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,790 It has nothing to do with the next project anyway. 203 00:12:11,059 --> 00:12:11,659 Yeah. 204 00:12:11,669 --> 00:12:13,839 So then, you know, like that. 205 00:12:14,270 --> 00:12:20,180 That efficiency suddenly becomes very, so that you can cheat and it doesn't, 206 00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:24,480 it doesn't, there's no concerns, you know, you weren't really being 207 00:12:24,490 --> 00:12:26,059 asked to build on, on top of it. 208 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:31,050 I can't imagine in your project that your team members could survive 209 00:12:31,460 --> 00:12:35,960 if they just kind of, you know, not actually know what's going on. 210 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:40,580 Um, I find it to be in my team, you know, like if I have an engineers who 211 00:12:41,130 --> 00:12:44,549 basically just kind of, they don't really know what's going on, like. 212 00:12:45,194 --> 00:12:48,974 They can't even last one discussion because we'll be talking about something, 213 00:12:48,974 --> 00:12:50,134 be like, well, what do you think of this? 214 00:12:50,134 --> 00:12:53,235 And they wouldn't be able to, they wouldn't know because they 215 00:12:53,235 --> 00:12:56,824 didn't understand, you know, why the decision was made before. 216 00:12:58,105 --> 00:13:02,344 So it would be like, like I said, just asking you what happened with 217 00:13:02,574 --> 00:13:04,514 last week's episode on severance. 218 00:13:05,044 --> 00:13:07,795 And you're like, well, I didn't watch it then, but you don't know. 219 00:13:07,795 --> 00:13:09,394 You just simply don't know. 220 00:13:09,425 --> 00:13:09,694 Right. 221 00:13:09,694 --> 00:13:11,084 You can't cheat your way out of that. 222 00:13:11,464 --> 00:13:12,214 Um, and so. 223 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,550 And it's not even so much about, I think like people want to do it at that point. 224 00:13:17,180 --> 00:13:19,130 Um, they actually just want to do the project. 225 00:13:19,359 --> 00:13:23,030 And I also want, um, have one observation that I have found too, 226 00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:25,509 which is because it's efficient. 227 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,450 We have started to be able to. 228 00:13:29,819 --> 00:13:34,390 At least in our own engineering and design projects that we've 229 00:13:34,430 --> 00:13:37,449 been able to do sometimes 230 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:44,699 sort of additional iterations that previously we wouldn't 231 00:13:44,699 --> 00:13:45,859 be able to afford to do. 232 00:13:45,879 --> 00:13:47,870 Cause we only had time to do so much. 233 00:13:48,909 --> 00:13:52,879 And you'd kind of have to kind of go, well, this is what we have time for. 234 00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:54,149 This is what we're going with. 235 00:13:54,469 --> 00:13:59,665 Sometimes even knowing that it may not be the best solution, but we don't have time 236 00:13:59,665 --> 00:14:02,025 to experiment with three other solutions. 237 00:14:02,085 --> 00:14:02,395 Yes. 238 00:14:02,475 --> 00:14:07,805 But now I feel like that we are starting to find ourselves that if we make it so 239 00:14:07,805 --> 00:14:13,464 that we're just going to almost like let it generate something it's rough and we're 240 00:14:13,464 --> 00:14:17,484 not going to actually use it, but we're going to do three different approaches 241 00:14:17,704 --> 00:14:22,475 so that we can experiment a little bit and then we can like make some decisions. 242 00:14:22,815 --> 00:14:23,125 Yeah. 243 00:14:23,125 --> 00:14:24,555 That prototyping phases. 244 00:14:24,555 --> 00:14:29,800 So yeah, it's like, it's tremendous, you know, It's tremendous, like the ability 245 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,960 to prototype and then prototyping is maybe is one of those processes that is 246 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,770 very well known in that design thinking in the engineering, uh, design sort of 247 00:14:38,770 --> 00:14:45,759 process, but maybe it's less so in, um, I don't know, um, writing an essay on 248 00:14:45,759 --> 00:14:51,085 history, um, But historians have their own, like, unique ways of thinking 249 00:14:51,085 --> 00:14:52,405 that I think is really useful too. 250 00:14:52,635 --> 00:14:55,715 So like, I think these are the kind of things that multiple, multidisciplinary 251 00:14:56,865 --> 00:15:01,074 sort of thinking is really going to enhance the way that we, we 252 00:15:01,075 --> 00:15:07,544 function, especially with this sort of explosion of, you know, AI and so on. 253 00:15:07,625 --> 00:15:11,235 So what do you think as someone who's, so you talked about it as a student, 254 00:15:11,245 --> 00:15:15,635 what do you think, you know, as someone who is about to graduate, do you feel 255 00:15:16,055 --> 00:15:18,905 Prepared to go into the workforce. 256 00:15:19,625 --> 00:15:23,444 Do you know, like this hopefully doesn't scare you. 257 00:15:23,444 --> 00:15:29,595 I don't think you should be scared, but, um, I did see that, um, I think 258 00:15:29,595 --> 00:15:36,384 Meta had said that they had the, in 2025, they will not hire any junior 259 00:15:36,735 --> 00:15:40,894 level developers, um, because they are. 260 00:15:41,275 --> 00:15:44,485 Finding that, you know, they're going to either, you know, have AI 261 00:15:44,485 --> 00:15:46,955 agents or something to replace that. 262 00:15:47,795 --> 00:15:51,394 It definitely creates other problems, which is like, if you can't be junior, how 263 00:15:51,394 --> 00:15:54,495 do you become the senior level developer? 264 00:15:54,695 --> 00:15:58,774 There's a, there's a bit of a, you know, they're creating a bit of a chicken and 265 00:15:58,774 --> 00:16:02,795 the egg, you know, breaking the cycle somewhere in their, um, Salesforce. 266 00:16:03,980 --> 00:16:08,870 Also said that they will in 2025, they're freezing... 267 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:14,489 I think all hiring because they are refocusing and trying to figure out 268 00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:17,780 what their engineering needs are. 269 00:16:18,099 --> 00:16:21,199 It doesn't mean that they will forever not hire, but they're saying in 2025, 270 00:16:21,209 --> 00:16:24,819 we're not hiring at all, we're putting a freeze on hiring our engineers, which 271 00:16:24,819 --> 00:16:27,969 is unheard of for that company before, because every year they would just hire 272 00:16:27,969 --> 00:16:29,759 thousands of people at the same time. 273 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,859 There is a lot of needs for engineers everywhere else, but I'm just sort 274 00:16:33,859 --> 00:16:37,765 of like painting a picture for people to know, like, as in, you know, like 275 00:16:37,765 --> 00:16:42,790 beginning of 2025, this is what the, the climate looks like right now as 276 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:48,030 someone who's about to graduate and in the job market networking and so on. 277 00:16:48,505 --> 00:16:50,925 What, uh, how do you feel about this? 278 00:16:51,345 --> 00:16:52,615 Thank you for telling me about it. 279 00:16:52,615 --> 00:16:55,065 Cause I, I didn't know about that until now. 280 00:16:55,115 --> 00:16:59,654 So that is a little concerning, especially knowing that the job market 281 00:16:59,654 --> 00:17:03,805 is also really competitive in terms of the computer science software space. 282 00:17:04,204 --> 00:17:08,255 Um, I've been hearing of people having a hard time getting software 283 00:17:08,255 --> 00:17:10,305 positions, internships, and jobs. 284 00:17:10,615 --> 00:17:11,125 And. 285 00:17:11,659 --> 00:17:15,040 I think that that's really discouraging, especially if they're 286 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,700 using AI to replace those careers. 287 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:22,299 Cause when it's, like you said, taking away from new graduates and it's also 288 00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:26,050 taking away that, that human aspect that I was talking about earlier, 289 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:31,529 although it is efficient and maybe may save the company some money, you're, 290 00:17:31,579 --> 00:17:36,179 you're taking away those opportunities of learning and building your sense 291 00:17:36,179 --> 00:17:40,080 of, um, community within that company. 292 00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:43,020 So that's, that is interesting. 293 00:17:44,540 --> 00:17:50,449 But I, I really, by the way, I, I didn't mean to, um, scare you 294 00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:52,439 during this conversation here, Clea. 295 00:17:52,979 --> 00:18:01,185 Um, but I also think that there is now a groundswell of people like yourself, 296 00:18:01,195 --> 00:18:06,075 who has the skills, who has the thinking process, who understand projects, who 297 00:18:06,075 --> 00:18:09,734 understand how to work, you know, to ask, how to understand, how to ask questions. 298 00:18:09,955 --> 00:18:14,325 That's actually one of the skills that is necessary for people to, for example, 299 00:18:14,485 --> 00:18:19,275 go with a much more entrepreneurial, you know, uh, path where there are 300 00:18:19,525 --> 00:18:25,015 software engineers or engineers who decide that, Hey, you know what? 301 00:18:25,365 --> 00:18:26,575 I'm making something up here. 302 00:18:27,024 --> 00:18:33,665 There wasn't a, a way for, for the Filipino community to, beyond 303 00:18:33,685 --> 00:18:38,394 Bucknell, but like in maybe in your area, wherever you end up being, you 304 00:18:38,394 --> 00:18:42,765 know, and, um, and that now you can. 305 00:18:43,265 --> 00:18:48,295 Because of the speed of development, because of the new tools, because of, 306 00:18:48,365 --> 00:18:57,115 you know, the access to some of this, these AI tools, um, that I, I heard an, a 307 00:18:57,115 --> 00:19:04,070 very interesting interview that said, we wonder at what point we're going to see 308 00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:12,240 the first solo entrepreneur billionaire, which is a really interesting, um, sort 309 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,820 of, and I mean, billionaire is more like a symbol that I don't think, you know, 310 00:19:17,049 --> 00:19:22,899 I don't even think any of like mere models like me, um, can even understand 311 00:19:22,990 --> 00:19:24,950 how much money that actually is. 312 00:19:25,180 --> 00:19:30,655 But, but my point, I think the point of it is more like you can potentially 313 00:19:30,665 --> 00:19:38,960 be extremely successful at this job and that you might even be, um, able to do 314 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:44,340 it with far fewer resources than, than what used to be, you know, you don't have 315 00:19:44,340 --> 00:19:50,439 to become the Google, you know, that has employees, many hundreds of thousands 316 00:19:50,439 --> 00:19:55,050 of employees in order to do this really difficult job, it almost feels like 317 00:19:55,050 --> 00:20:00,090 there's a lot more, um, opportunities for people to be able to say, you know 318 00:20:00,090 --> 00:20:03,860 what, if I think that bringing water to... 319 00:20:04,245 --> 00:20:08,205 you know, places in need is the thing that needs to exist in the world. 320 00:20:08,225 --> 00:20:10,985 And there is not a business that is doing that right now. 321 00:20:11,324 --> 00:20:17,374 I can do it because using the efficiency that's created by AI, um, 322 00:20:17,415 --> 00:20:21,414 what used to have taken, you know, an insurmountable amount of resource. 323 00:20:21,715 --> 00:20:27,204 Just to do the communication and the design and the PR and all that I might 324 00:20:27,455 --> 00:20:33,034 in 2026 create agents that can take care of a lot of that for me so that I 325 00:20:33,034 --> 00:20:34,715 can do things that are more meaningful. 326 00:20:34,875 --> 00:20:37,205 I think that's a really different kind of future. 327 00:20:37,205 --> 00:20:44,074 I think it's scary on one hand, but it's also like exhilarating on the other hand. 328 00:20:44,820 --> 00:20:46,120 Yes, for sure. 329 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:51,070 That's so interesting because I, I've spoken to people who, when 330 00:20:51,070 --> 00:20:55,230 networking, they didn't like major in computer science or anything, 331 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:57,480 but they learned it on their own. 332 00:20:57,490 --> 00:21:01,540 And I guess when learning on your own, Chat, GPT, or AI 333 00:21:01,550 --> 00:21:06,890 helpers are such a important and helpful tool to learn as well. 334 00:21:06,890 --> 00:21:11,790 So having that aspect to help you do things on your own rather than always 335 00:21:11,790 --> 00:21:16,340 relying on having to be taught or having to buy all of these resources 336 00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:19,670 in order to get things done is so empowering because you can really 337 00:21:19,670 --> 00:21:23,269 do anything on your own these days because of all of the resources, 338 00:21:23,299 --> 00:21:25,909 open source platforms available. 339 00:21:26,825 --> 00:21:27,975 But it's also not necessary. 340 00:21:27,975 --> 00:21:29,765 It doesn't have to be really solo. 341 00:21:30,075 --> 00:21:36,845 But imagine if you can run a tremendously impactful business or organization, 342 00:21:37,055 --> 00:21:42,005 right, that do meaningful things, but it's just 10 of you, um, right. 343 00:21:42,045 --> 00:21:43,864 It could also be this. 344 00:21:44,190 --> 00:21:47,060 You know, but, but it would have in the past would have 345 00:21:47,060 --> 00:21:49,980 required a hundred people, right. 346 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:53,719 And it, like that to me is a really interesting part of the world that I 347 00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:56,790 don't think a lot of people are exploring because, you know, there's a lot 348 00:21:56,790 --> 00:22:00,149 about replacing current jobs and, and. 349 00:22:00,585 --> 00:22:05,345 And it might, I think that it will create, replace some jobs, maybe even 350 00:22:05,345 --> 00:22:10,365 many jobs, um, especially what would be considered entry level jobs, or maybe 351 00:22:10,365 --> 00:22:13,245 even to a certain degree, mid level jobs. 352 00:22:13,625 --> 00:22:15,455 Um, but I think that. 353 00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:19,250 You know, there, it, it feels like to me, kind of like what I was 354 00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:23,740 saying before, okay, you save time over here, but you actually end 355 00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:25,120 up spending the time elsewhere. 356 00:22:25,329 --> 00:22:27,049 So now you're able to push it further. 357 00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:27,980 Yes. 358 00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:32,140 And so I feel like that, you know, taking something away from one 359 00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:38,350 side will, will inevitably get balanced out on the other side too. 360 00:22:38,820 --> 00:22:43,520 Um, but it, it is difficult, you know, especially for folks who 361 00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:45,800 You know, this was forced on them. 362 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,139 This was a natural progression. 363 00:22:48,449 --> 00:22:54,310 You know, if I've had this job for the last 25 years, um, suddenly I 364 00:22:54,310 --> 00:22:59,860 being forced to re-skill, up-skill, change skills, change jobs too. 365 00:23:00,625 --> 00:23:04,645 To, to deal with this, you know, new world, it, it feels 366 00:23:04,645 --> 00:23:06,565 difficult and feels uncomfortable. 367 00:23:07,045 --> 00:23:11,645 Um, but I, I kind of, you know, I was really interested in hearing sort of from 368 00:23:11,655 --> 00:23:13,575 someone who's about to graduate, right? 369 00:23:14,074 --> 00:23:19,495 I also think about, you know, for people who are, you know, 370 00:23:19,564 --> 00:23:22,634 freshmen now at Bucknell, right? 371 00:23:23,034 --> 00:23:24,585 Like when they graduate. 372 00:23:24,985 --> 00:23:25,804 Yes. 373 00:23:25,855 --> 00:23:27,534 What does the world look like then? 374 00:23:27,544 --> 00:23:29,845 Because you are already seeing a little bit of this. 375 00:23:30,225 --> 00:23:31,784 In 2025, right? 376 00:23:31,790 --> 00:23:34,090 Mm-hmm . I like 2028. 377 00:23:34,159 --> 00:23:36,450 Like, that's gonna be really different, right? 378 00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:41,375 Mm-hmm . And I think the younger generations now have, they have so 379 00:23:41,375 --> 00:23:45,245 much ambition and now they have a lot of resources and more tools. 380 00:23:45,245 --> 00:23:50,615 So I see them having more and more progress and more and more, um, 381 00:23:50,675 --> 00:23:53,405 really cool projects coming out that they're really passionate about. 382 00:23:53,405 --> 00:23:55,475 And I know they're gonna achieve so much more. 383 00:23:55,534 --> 00:23:55,865 So. 384 00:23:56,685 --> 00:23:58,775 Well, you are part of the younger generation, Clea. 385 00:23:59,034 --> 00:24:02,485 Just wanted to say you, you have those tools as well, and 386 00:24:02,495 --> 00:24:04,235 you, you'll get to use them too. 387 00:24:04,935 --> 00:24:09,954 Um, I, I hope that, by the way, that it wasn't, uh, you didn't 388 00:24:09,955 --> 00:24:12,105 get scared from that, but, um. 389 00:24:12,165 --> 00:24:14,865 I still have hope, you know, cause, because I've. 390 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,490 I feel like what you were saying, it's not enough to be just an engineer. 391 00:24:18,490 --> 00:24:22,510 You need to have all of those skills and that interdisciplinary, which I think 392 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,649 AI could never replace all of those like human aspects that makes a person a person 393 00:24:27,649 --> 00:24:32,109 because what, how you provide value in your work or like you said, your past 394 00:24:32,110 --> 00:24:37,215 experience and your identity, how all of those aspects of your identity and 395 00:24:37,215 --> 00:24:41,215 what you've been through affect how you do your current work, which A.I. Could 396 00:24:41,215 --> 00:24:43,984 never have that like history built in. 397 00:24:44,215 --> 00:24:46,255 Yeah, and and that's right. 398 00:24:46,465 --> 00:24:48,445 Actually, A.I. cannot do that for us. 399 00:24:48,825 --> 00:24:52,965 Um, you have to be the one who you can have a lot of experience. 400 00:24:52,975 --> 00:24:57,484 Someone can read aloud the experiences to you, but you still 401 00:24:57,484 --> 00:24:58,764 have to go through the heart. 402 00:24:58,774 --> 00:25:01,014 The hard work is how do you process that? 403 00:25:01,014 --> 00:25:01,564 And how do you. 404 00:25:01,795 --> 00:25:03,635 Make sense of all those experiences. 405 00:25:04,004 --> 00:25:07,185 I want to say that all that's exactly what your reflections did. 406 00:25:07,254 --> 00:25:11,874 You know, like doing the project itself is one thing, but the reflection is 407 00:25:11,905 --> 00:25:14,025 the part where you had the experience. 408 00:25:14,044 --> 00:25:18,404 Now you get to process it and you were able to make pretty big 409 00:25:18,740 --> 00:25:21,980 jumps every time, you know, you build one from one to the other. 410 00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:24,699 And those are the things that stays forever, right? 411 00:25:24,730 --> 00:25:30,420 Like the C sharp code that you wrote in for whatever that's going 412 00:25:30,420 --> 00:25:32,219 to get obsolete, unfortunately. 413 00:25:32,619 --> 00:25:32,949 Right. 414 00:25:33,010 --> 00:25:37,080 But, but the ability to sort of take the thinking and like 415 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:38,879 combine those experiences. 416 00:25:39,225 --> 00:25:43,225 And then figuring out what kind of thinker you are, you know, as you would 417 00:25:43,225 --> 00:25:47,734 solve problems, means that by the time you write the next piece of code that 418 00:25:47,735 --> 00:25:53,475 is not even in C sharp, will, you will still be able to apply those, right. 419 00:25:53,504 --> 00:25:58,155 And, but it's really about even like taking coding to design and all of 420 00:25:58,155 --> 00:25:59,784 that is even make it even stronger. 421 00:25:59,794 --> 00:26:00,595 I really believe that. 422 00:26:00,605 --> 00:26:02,985 I think that's, that's, that's what it's going to be. 423 00:26:02,985 --> 00:26:07,024 And you were talking about augmented reality and virtual reality before. 424 00:26:07,254 --> 00:26:09,185 I mean, that's another really like. 425 00:26:09,495 --> 00:26:14,675 To me, surprisingly unspoken area too, you know, I was thinking about, 426 00:26:15,034 --> 00:26:21,574 you know, like if you are training to become a nurse in 2025 right 427 00:26:21,574 --> 00:26:24,994 now, and you're going to graduate in 2028, we talked about that, right? 428 00:26:26,854 --> 00:26:35,065 It may very well be that you are no longer, or it may very well be that 429 00:26:35,075 --> 00:26:42,624 the... you know, currently, I think a lot of nursing majors have to learn 430 00:26:42,624 --> 00:26:47,914 a humongous amount of content, like the material is staggering, right? 431 00:26:48,304 --> 00:26:52,745 Like every procedure that they're supposed to know, every condition, 432 00:26:52,745 --> 00:26:55,425 there's all the protocols, right? 433 00:26:56,154 --> 00:27:00,665 I kind of kept imagining with engineers like you, who's 434 00:27:00,675 --> 00:27:05,115 going to create a safe, secure. 435 00:27:05,899 --> 00:27:13,370 Accurate, non hallucinogenic version of some kind of AR glasses 436 00:27:14,270 --> 00:27:17,800 that a nurse would be able to wear comfortably, you know, all day. 437 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:24,740 And being able to say, like, generally speaking, if I, you know, have a 438 00:27:24,740 --> 00:27:28,570 patient who is having a certain kind of symptoms or is having 439 00:27:28,570 --> 00:27:32,140 certain kind of pain or knowing that they are having a heart attack. 440 00:27:33,090 --> 00:27:34,829 That your 441 00:27:37,390 --> 00:27:44,789 AR will helpfully just go, this is without going through like public servers 442 00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:47,789 and stuff, you know, like within the hospital, like it's always safe and it's 443 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,729 not sharing that material with anyone. 444 00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:55,300 Being able to just go here, here are the next seven steps. 445 00:27:56,529 --> 00:27:59,279 Here are some other additional things that you need to know. 446 00:27:59,289 --> 00:28:01,370 This is the timing in which you need to do them. 447 00:28:01,660 --> 00:28:05,970 Etc, etc. Not that the nurse should just purely count on that. 448 00:28:06,239 --> 00:28:09,170 Having that assistant would be so incredibly useful. 449 00:28:09,659 --> 00:28:09,909 Yes. 450 00:28:09,909 --> 00:28:12,379 And being able to sort of say, like, did I do them? 451 00:28:12,399 --> 00:28:16,929 Or did I, like, or you, maybe, maybe a heart attack is common enough 452 00:28:16,929 --> 00:28:18,429 that you just know that, right? 453 00:28:18,859 --> 00:28:22,610 But maybe you come across something that you've never done, or you 454 00:28:22,610 --> 00:28:24,019 haven't done in three years. 455 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:25,239 Mm. Right? 456 00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:32,060 Like, typically, by the way, like many doctors and nurses in some 457 00:28:32,060 --> 00:28:34,340 of those situations, they actually have to look things up, right? 458 00:28:34,340 --> 00:28:39,170 They have to, and this is also where sometimes you, or sometimes some things 459 00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:43,109 you missed and then you, you know, this is where like practice lawsuits 460 00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:44,740 come in and so on and so forth. 461 00:28:45,069 --> 00:28:49,780 But I could imagine that, you know, a well developed tool like 462 00:28:49,780 --> 00:28:56,940 that could be, you know, life changing for, for all of us, right? 463 00:28:56,940 --> 00:28:57,920 In medical care. 464 00:28:58,245 --> 00:28:58,485 Yeah. 465 00:28:58,534 --> 00:29:03,074 And it would allow for, yeah, it would allow for someone to not count on what 466 00:29:03,074 --> 00:29:07,754 if the nurse got tired because they did already, it's their 12th hour working that 467 00:29:07,754 --> 00:29:14,684 day and it's been a crazy day, you know, of all kinds of, you know, high adrenaline 468 00:29:14,715 --> 00:29:16,604 events that happen over and over again. 469 00:29:16,604 --> 00:29:16,784 Right. 470 00:29:16,925 --> 00:29:17,644 It happens. 471 00:29:17,645 --> 00:29:17,945 Right. 472 00:29:18,865 --> 00:29:22,735 And, and what if you can create that tool and, and what, what does that 473 00:29:22,735 --> 00:29:24,264 change for that nursing students? 474 00:29:25,715 --> 00:29:30,555 You know, like, what if they end up spending a little less 475 00:29:30,575 --> 00:29:35,625 energy on acquiring all of the content, which is an investment. 476 00:29:36,660 --> 00:29:41,530 For me, when I see it, I feel like it's an insurmountable amount of content 477 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,740 that in fact, it just keeps growing because, you know, people are researching 478 00:29:46,740 --> 00:29:48,469 more, discovering more how to even. 479 00:29:49,055 --> 00:29:52,025 Keep that in the, in our brain, you know? 480 00:29:52,995 --> 00:29:56,325 Yes, it's impressive the work they do and that there's so 481 00:29:56,325 --> 00:29:58,605 much risk in Incorporating. 482 00:29:59,045 --> 00:30:03,924 They put their lives at stake every single minute because you never know like you 483 00:30:03,924 --> 00:30:08,694 can Contract whatever it is that's causing someone to be sick, for example, right? 484 00:30:08,694 --> 00:30:15,310 And so you're doing all of that Like, I almost imagine, like, wow, you would 485 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,520 be the person, you'll be the kind of people who would have the skills to 486 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:25,520 create the AR technology that can help someone like that, and in turn, it will 487 00:30:25,529 --> 00:30:32,259 help save countless lives, and it will also change their perspectives a lot too. 488 00:30:32,469 --> 00:30:34,130 So, I remember. 489 00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:38,860 You know, as a kid, I don't know whether you felt that way too, but as a kid, 490 00:30:39,380 --> 00:30:45,809 I mean, if I'm an Asian family, like there is some default professions that 491 00:30:45,810 --> 00:30:48,190 are cool to do, doctor being one, right? 492 00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:49,480 Yes, for sure. 493 00:30:49,589 --> 00:30:51,820 And, um, I remember. 494 00:30:52,675 --> 00:30:55,995 Learning the little, littlest bit about being a doctor. 495 00:30:55,995 --> 00:30:58,355 And it was like, well, it's a lot of studying. 496 00:30:58,385 --> 00:31:04,484 It was like a huge amount of memorizing, like lots and lots and lots of facts and 497 00:31:04,494 --> 00:31:07,585 big words and, and, and, and systems. 498 00:31:07,975 --> 00:31:09,404 And I remember thinking. 499 00:31:10,380 --> 00:31:11,430 That's just not for me. 500 00:31:13,930 --> 00:31:17,290 Now I speak with a lot of doctors, people who had gone through medical 501 00:31:17,290 --> 00:31:21,760 training that says, well, yeah, that is actually like legitimately really, 502 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,509 really hard, but that's not all I do. 503 00:31:25,510 --> 00:31:27,240 In fact, that's not what I do. 504 00:31:28,890 --> 00:31:33,150 So they think about the world very differently already, but I have this 505 00:31:33,150 --> 00:31:37,810 like, you know, impression that this is an unattainable thing because. 506 00:31:38,690 --> 00:31:43,300 It's so, it's so much about memorizing a huge amount of content and that 507 00:31:43,330 --> 00:31:45,110 I'm just like, that's not for me. 508 00:31:45,130 --> 00:31:49,739 Like I may be able to do it, but like, you know, like I can't, I don't find that to 509 00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:52,800 be a good use of my, my, my, my, my time. 510 00:31:53,189 --> 00:31:56,989 But if that got taken out of the equation, maybe not completely, 511 00:31:56,990 --> 00:32:02,109 but like the pressure of like being tested on those things as being your, 512 00:32:02,169 --> 00:32:04,439 the majority of what you do, right. 513 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,550 It may mean that providing care for someone, becoming the, the, the, 514 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,679 the, uh, providing, making someone else's healthy, um, becomes, you 515 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,720 know, part of the equation, like the bigger part of the equation. 516 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,329 It may change a lot of people's minds. 517 00:32:20,419 --> 00:32:21,139 Yes. 518 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:21,450 Yeah. 519 00:32:21,450 --> 00:32:26,490 I have a similar story of how people are saying, I was asking, um, A 520 00:32:26,490 --> 00:32:30,760 friend who graduated and I was asking her, Oh, we have to learn so much 521 00:32:30,790 --> 00:32:33,510 technical things in our ECEG classes. 522 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,990 Like how much of it do you actually use similar to how the doctors have 523 00:32:36,990 --> 00:32:40,700 to learn all of these procedures and memorize a lot of things, but they don't 524 00:32:40,820 --> 00:32:42,909 maybe directly use it in their work. 525 00:32:42,909 --> 00:32:44,919 So I was asking her, how much do you actually. 526 00:32:45,020 --> 00:32:46,830 Use this because she's an electrical engineer. 527 00:32:47,140 --> 00:32:50,970 And she was saying not too much, all of the things that we learned, 528 00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:54,639 because I think the processes at school are just teaching you how to 529 00:32:54,639 --> 00:32:58,219 learn, teaching you the fundamentals and what you really do in a real time 530 00:32:58,219 --> 00:33:03,480 job and work is like you learn, like the processes that your company uses 531 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:04,980 and you need to learn how to learn. 532 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,830 And that's what school prepares you for. 533 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,720 And being able to find those things that you need to learn and learn by yourself. 534 00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:13,460 I think that's what AI is really great. 535 00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:18,550 For being able to learn fast on the job when you need to know these things, 536 00:33:18,580 --> 00:33:21,540 maybe not off the top of your head, but you have like that background. 537 00:33:22,220 --> 00:33:23,500 That's beautifully said. 538 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,770 Clea, thank you so much for spending all this time with me. 539 00:33:27,850 --> 00:33:30,900 I really, really enjoyed our conversation. 540 00:33:30,919 --> 00:33:32,530 You are brilliant. 541 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:38,290 I, I, um, I am so impressed with, you know, this, you know, what 542 00:33:38,290 --> 00:33:42,209 you have to say and how you think about the world is fascinating. 543 00:33:42,210 --> 00:33:49,485 Um, I think that, um, those of us, I'd be listening to this again, but, 544 00:33:49,505 --> 00:33:53,965 and those of us, I think are also listening right now who are, you know, 545 00:33:53,965 --> 00:33:59,235 from my generation or the, you know, the, even the older generations should 546 00:33:59,235 --> 00:34:04,345 look at, you know, should listen closely to what you are telling us. 547 00:34:05,035 --> 00:34:09,005 And what you, how you think about a world, what makes sense and, and, 548 00:34:09,005 --> 00:34:13,235 and, and how you are, you know, what your real experience is like. 549 00:34:13,725 --> 00:34:18,445 So that, you know, for those of us who are in any positions of like making those 550 00:34:18,445 --> 00:34:21,695 kinds of decisions, uh, thinking about like the future of education, maybe. 551 00:34:22,010 --> 00:34:25,750 So I know that there are people who are Deans and, you know, Department 552 00:34:25,750 --> 00:34:29,610 Chairs who have the ability to, to influence where this goes. 553 00:34:29,830 --> 00:34:31,470 I think we have a lot of work to do. 554 00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:36,319 I think we have a lot to do to make sure that our, you know, like, not 555 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,689 only for you graduating in 2025, but what about those who are graduating in 556 00:34:40,720 --> 00:34:47,980 26, 27, 28, like we gotta, we gotta do these things quickly to, to make sure 557 00:34:47,980 --> 00:34:54,240 that you are not going to be, you know, getting out to the world and, and, and 558 00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:59,929 feel like that you are sort of, you know, you're not able to contribute, 559 00:35:00,230 --> 00:35:04,940 um, because the real world looks too different from what was presented to 560 00:35:04,940 --> 00:35:07,009 you in, in, in an education environment. 561 00:35:07,010 --> 00:35:10,579 Um, and I'm so glad that you're at Bucknell who. 562 00:35:10,975 --> 00:35:13,015 Which, like you said, does not do that. 563 00:35:13,255 --> 00:35:16,305 Um, it allows you to ask questions, like to work on real world project. 564 00:35:16,535 --> 00:35:20,385 So you hear from here, Bucknell university, please go check it out. 565 00:35:20,734 --> 00:35:22,595 Um, I think many people already know this. 566 00:35:22,654 --> 00:35:26,304 I'm in school is very well known, but I, for people who, who are really 567 00:35:26,305 --> 00:35:31,765 not, um, you know, who are thinking about like, you know, engineering, 568 00:35:31,765 --> 00:35:34,135 for example, like Clea, uh, was. 569 00:35:34,405 --> 00:35:39,615 Should think about what it means to go to a program that has equal emphasis on 570 00:35:39,625 --> 00:35:45,204 liberal arts, um, on sort of these ability for you to ask, ask questions yourselves 571 00:35:45,485 --> 00:35:50,304 and to lead teams, um, and do all these other things that, uh, is, is going to 572 00:35:50,314 --> 00:35:56,105 go beyond just, you know, 25 really, really hard problem sets, um, right. 573 00:35:56,375 --> 00:35:58,235 Um, and, um. 574 00:35:58,555 --> 00:36:02,645 And for those, uh, last reminder for those who are looking for the next 575 00:36:02,645 --> 00:36:07,625 generations of the best talents, I think clear here is certainly one of them. 576 00:36:07,645 --> 00:36:12,085 If you are creating those glasses for AR, you know, for an AR company, 577 00:36:12,385 --> 00:36:16,654 um, you know, contact her quickly or she would be off the market. 578 00:36:17,174 --> 00:36:17,565 All right. 579 00:36:17,595 --> 00:36:18,815 Thank you all so much. 580 00:36:18,845 --> 00:36:22,015 And, uh, Clea, I really appreciate this conversation. 581 00:36:22,045 --> 00:36:25,015 I hope that we can get to, um, keep in touch and, uh, let 582 00:36:25,015 --> 00:36:26,385 me, let me know how things go. 583 00:36:26,385 --> 00:36:26,785 Okay. 584 00:36:26,855 --> 00:36:27,235 Yes. 585 00:36:27,245 --> 00:36:29,435 Thank you again so much for this opportunity. 586 00:36:29,435 --> 00:36:33,294 I really enjoyed reflecting on my, my ePortfolios and all the projects 587 00:36:33,295 --> 00:36:36,514 I've done and how much I've learned since then and how much Digication 588 00:36:36,514 --> 00:36:40,765 has helped me to, to reflect on these experiences and to showcase them as well. 589 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:41,710 So thank you. 590 00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:45,060 Well, I, I, I appreciate the kind words. 591 00:36:45,460 --> 00:36:48,360 Take care and, uh, good luck with everything. 592 00:36:48,370 --> 00:36:53,759 And congratulations, uh, uh, in advance on your, your completion of your degrees. 593 00:36:54,109 --> 00:36:55,270 Thank you so much, Jeff. 594 00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:56,420 Okay, take care. 595 00:36:56,750 --> 00:36:56,840 Bye. 596 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:57,299 Thank you. 597 00:36:57,439 --> 00:36:58,200 Bye bye. 598 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,080 This concludes our conversation. 599 00:37:00,470 --> 00:37:04,640 To hear our next episode, be sure to subscribe to Digication Scholars 600 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,780 conversations on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. 601 00:37:10,145 --> 00:37:14,315 The Digication Scholars Conversation Series is brought to you by Digication, 602 00:37:15,095 --> 00:37:18,515 a technology platform powering the most innovative e-portfolio 603 00:37:18,515 --> 00:37:20,675 programs in K12 and higher education. 604 00:37:21,365 --> 00:37:23,795 Our website can be found at Digication dot com. 605 00:37:24,425 --> 00:37:27,425 If you enjoyed today's conversation, please like, 606 00:37:27,575 --> 00:37:29,285 subscribe, and share with a friend. 607 00:37:29,795 --> 00:37:30,815 Thanks for tuning in.