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Well, hi David, it's great to see you again mate.

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It's been a while, but always good to see your smiling face there.

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likewise and thanks very much Chris.

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So I thought we could start by just getting a bit more background on your own experiences
as a young man sort of growing up and then moving into the business world.

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What were sort of the influences for you to get involved in business sort of early on in
your career?

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That's a very interesting question.

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I'm not sure I've ever been asked it before, but look, mine probably wasn't the
traditional path.

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I didn't do that well in high school, really because of lack of application on my part, I
would venture to say, and I didn't qualify for university.

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So this is my last year of high school was 1971.

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And...

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But interestingly, I kind of stumbled across a relaxation technique called TM or
Transcendental Meditation at that time.

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Started practicing it, it was really good for me, helped me sort my life out a little bit.

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And I decided I wanted to become a teacher of that.

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So I went overseas, came back, opened up a center and started running public lectures and
teaching people.

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A lot of business people came as a form of stress management in their lives.

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And I...

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taught that for about 10 years full time.

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However, you know, it was motivated by I suppose a bit of a gene in me that wanted to save
the world, you know, or do something worthwhile with my young life.

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But it didn't pay very well.

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So after a while, I really needed to go out and get a job job.

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And, and that's when I started applying for different roles and, and I ended up at the
Xerox Corporation.

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which was a great place to land back in the 80s because I went into a sales role and
probably IBM and Xerox were really considered to be the kings, I think, of professional

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selling in those days.

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So I was trained very well, I had very good managers and I just learned a lot.

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And, you know, either fortuitously or for my sins, I...

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I remained in that imaging industry for the 35 years of my corporate career.

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Yeah, did you find you took to sales kind of like a duck to water?

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Was it something that just sort of naturally came to you or what was the experience like?

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I mean, they had incredible training and really professional sort of approach to selling,
didn't they, in those days?

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But was it something that was easy or how did you find that experience?

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Yeah, another great question.

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Look, I probably felt very uncomfortable initially.

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I must admit there was one step before that.

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I worked in a Xerox instant printing center initially, pressing buttons on an analog
photocopier basically, producing customer work.

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And then pretty quickly they made me a store manager and they knew that I'd originally
applied for a sales job, which went to a more experienced person.

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but, but they, they'd never forgotten that.

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And they, when one territory came up, they offered it to me and, and away I went and I did
start to question myself as to whether I was the right material because all the

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salespeople seem to be pretty confident and brash.

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And, you know, there was that old expression, you know, to be a good salesman, you've got
to have the gift of the gab.

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And although we're having a good chat right now, I'm a pretty quiet kind of person.

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But the very first day I walked into the new branch where I was going to be a salesperson,
my manager said to me, go upstairs and speak to the state manager, Barry.

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He's going to teach you how to sell.

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And so because I hadn't actually been on a course yet, I was scheduled to go on a course.

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And I thought, you know, this is where it begins.

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And I walked in and I asked, you know, who was Barry?

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And they motioned to an office and I went and sat down and he said, you are the new

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Young guy, are you?

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Yep, yep.

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Been expecting you.

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Said, sit down.

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And he said, so I'll teach you how to sell.

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God gave you two ears and one mouth.

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Use them in that proportion and just learn how to ask lots of good questions and shut up
and listen.

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There endeth the lesson.

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He told me to leave his office and just go out and start selling.

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And I breathed an enormous sigh of relief because I was probably better at

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asking questions and listening.

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I was a person that had a fairly high degree of curiosity, I think, and keen to learn.

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But I didn't necessarily have the gift of the gab.

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What he was saying was that, well, that's what you don't want.

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You want to be able to listen.

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You've got to uncover customer needs.

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And if your solution is selling, there's got to be a problem to solve.

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And you've got to know what the problem is before you can offer a solution.

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So it wasn't about product selling.

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It wasn't about selling on features of products.

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It was about uncovering the need that a client may or may not have.

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And somebody later said to me too, don't ever sell somebody something they don't need.

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And so you got to start with a discussion about what they might need in their business.

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And so that was really my entry point.

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And yeah, I think I was pretty good at it because I sold along the lines of professional
solution selling.

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It was a great early lesson, wasn't it?

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I mean, and probably very timely for you in terms of your own career and development.

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And when you think about where you went from there, so you spent time at Xerox and then
moved to Conica at a certain point, what was the trigger for that?

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How did that evolve?

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How did that come to be?

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Yeah, so that was via a little 13 -year stint at Canon.

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So they were the three imaging organizations that I worked for in my time.

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And look, that really came about because opportunities came up to move into a more senior
management role.

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And...

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Certainly the Japanese companies were really starting to encroach quite significantly into
that tech space.

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And Canon seemed like a good place to be.

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And when I left Canon, I'd set up a national accounts program to sell to the largest
companies in Australia, largest corporations.

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And...

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I did a stint as a state manager for New South Wales in the Australian Capital Territory,
Australia's capital city.

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And it was successful and it was very good.

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But then the opportunity came up to move to Connacham and Alter in quite a senior role.

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And I was on that executive level reporting to the managing director at that point.

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That's the first time I'd done that.

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And all of these companies are run by Japanese managing directors.

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And so at ConocoMnalter, I never assumed for a moment that I could move to that next step
and be the managing director myself.

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Except one day, lo and behold, I got a tap on the shoulder and I was told that they'd like
me to be the first non -Japanese managing director of the company in its 40 year history

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in Australia.

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So...

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My career in that sense was very progressive within that particular sector.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And it must have been an interesting contrast to go from Xerox, sort of a US based
organisation to the Japanese run businesses.

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Did you notice that sort of difference in culture and the way in which things were done?

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How would you describe that?

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How did you experience it?

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Yeah, there definitely was a difference.

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When I was at Xerox in the 80s, it was rank Xerox.

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So it was 50 % British, 50 % American.

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And it was the management team in Australia came from the UK.

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So it probably wasn't exactly the same as Xerox Corporation USA.

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But a lot of systems and procedures were the same.

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And I would say it had a pretty hard commercial edge to it.

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you know, there was a lot of accountability, you know, high expectations and in many ways
sort of short timeframes to achieve things and for success and not a lot of tolerance of

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lack of success.

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And that was all fine.

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It kind of, you know, toughened you up a little bit and built robustness, I guess, into
your, you know, nature when you're at work.

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And I would say that the move to Japanese companies, they were probably a bit less
systematized than the American influence in rank Xerox.

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And in a way, probably a slightly softer environment.

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But no less determined to take market share and be successful globally.

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And they certainly were.

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And they manufactured,

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excellent products as well, which of course helped.

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But I enjoyed my time at Canon and Conic and Monalto, the two Japanese companies, one I
was at for 13 years, one I was at for 15 years.

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And I found the Japanese to be very, very nice people, you know, very polite, very
considerate, at times very frustrating too, because it's a hierarchical decision making

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process.

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So,

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Nobody would ever make a decision unless their boss had already told them in anticipation
of the decision to be made what to do.

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So you could put forward a very reasonable suggestion to your Japanese managing director
or during one of my Tokyo visits and typically there would be no answer.

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And then the Japanese person would check with their boss at night, this came up in the
meeting, David asked this, he proposes.

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what would you like me to say?

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And so I was used to a slightly harder edged, quicker decision -making cycle.

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And I had to get very used to the fact that because of the hierarchical nature of Japanese
companies, it would be disrespectful for a person at one level to make a decision unless

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they were sure the person above them wanted that decision to be made in that way.

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And it was all based on respect, but...

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It was probably more my nature to say, look, it's a logical proposal.

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Let's just approve it and get on with it and we'll see if it works or not.

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So it had its frustrations, but I also very liked the Japanese very much.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, it was a tremendous achievement to be the very first managing director of
Konica Minolta here in Australia.

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What do you think brought that about?

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Obviously you were delivering some great results and they had a lot of confidence in you,
but was there something that you think triggered that change for them?

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Did they feel like there was a need to do that, to compete more effectively or what do you
think was behind that?

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Yeah, look, I imagine in its essence, it was exactly that, Chris.

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They probably felt after having observed me for seven years as the head of sales, realized
that I understood the market and we had produced very good results.

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They were very progressive and the reputation of the company was growing and so on.

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They probably thought, well,

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We've got to the end of a four year cycle of Japanese managing directors visa running out.

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Instead of doing what we've done for the last 40 years, you know, let's put David into
that role.

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They had that confidence, but it still took an individual to make that decision.

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And the person that made the decision was the number two person in the company.

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So there's the president that sat across all divisions.

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imaging where I was, but also there's medical and various measuring equipment and things
like that.

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So I reported to the person who was head of the office equipment division essentially, and
that was about 70 % of the company globally.

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So he was definitely the number two guy.

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And he was a bit of a maverick.

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He was the sort of guy, he's been a lot of time in the US actually.

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He used to run the US for the company and he was just different.

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He wasn't afraid to think outside the box.

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And yeah, so he kind of rolled the dice.

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Now, it's a little bit funny that, you know, to appoint somebody with nearly 30 years
experience in the Australian industry, having worked for Xerox and Canon and with now

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seven years worth of proven results.

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I wouldn't have thought it was a particularly risky gamble to take.

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But for a Japanese person, it kind of was.

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But anyway, it worked out to be a good decision for the company and for myself.

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Yeah, it says something doesn't it about that Japanese culture that was still perceived as
perhaps risky with all those that track record of great success and the history and so on.

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And when you took on the role, I mean, what was the approach that you took when you first
took on that new role?

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How did you think about taking on the role, thinking about the organization you're now
inheriting, you got that broader scope of responsibility?

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What was your approach?

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Yeah, well I think day one and to a larger degree day two were very, very interesting
days, very defining days.

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So the announcement was made at a conference, an annual conference to start the Japanese
Financial Year, you know, in a five -star hotel in Sydney.

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We had about 300 people there, our own team members, but also a lot of regional dealers
and so on.

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And as had always happened, four or five.

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very senior Japanese people had come out from Tokyo for the conference and the main person
would do a keynote speech and so on.

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And it was known that the managing director that we'd had for four years was going back,
so everybody was waiting for the announcement of the new person.

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And the assumption was that it was one of the five people sitting in the front row.

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But the most senior got up and he said, look, I'm pleased to announce that the name of the
new managing director that'll run the company here in Australia and we've appointed David

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Cook.

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So I was the only one outside of the Japanese who knew that decision had been taken and
everybody was quite flabbergasted, I think.

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And anyway, I got up on stage and I hadn't written a speech.

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I don't really write speeches.

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I'm not.

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particularly good at that, I'd rather just talk off the cuff.

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And what I said to everybody was, I want us all to work together to build a company that
cares, that cares about the people who work here, that cares about our customers and cares

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about our community.

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And the next day I walked into the office for the very first time as the managing director
and I emailed everybody in the company and I said, look, a lot of you weren't able to be

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at the conference, but this is the...

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if you like the vision statement that I made on the day, there's only one problem.

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I don't actually know how to achieve it.

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And I need your help.

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I really need your ideas.

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I need you to tell me honestly, what's good about working here?

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What's not so good?

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What do we need to do?

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You know, we're still a fair way back in sort of market share.

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We're probably sitting about fourth at that stage, but we had aspirations to go higher,
even though the company's...

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above us were much, much larger than ourselves and had much better brand recognition and
so on.

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And so, and then I said, I'll be getting back to you soon with a mechanism to gather up
those ideas.

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So please help me.

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We're all in this together.

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So that's the approach that I took.

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And if you look at kind of standard management practice back then, that was 2013,
probably,

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Conventional wisdom would have said, well, everybody's waiting to see whether they've made
the right choice, even though they knew me in the company.

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And, you know, probably what you should do is to show great confidence and assertiveness
and let everybody know that you know what you're doing and you're, you know, all those

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sort of classic leadership traits.

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But instead what I did, I think I showed quite a lot of vulnerability.

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I said, look, I'm the new person to do the job, but I...

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I don't know how to do this, very important aspect of it.

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And maybe to some degree, some humility as well.

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And I would say that leadership theory has evolved a fair bit in that last 10 years or so.

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And we probably do understand now that for a so -called leader to show a degree of
humility and vulnerability are actually leadership traits, albeit possibly still not that

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common.

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But.

208
00:18:11,406 --> 00:18:17,658
That's how it all started and that was the tone that was set, I think, on day one and day
two.

209
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:31,289
In talking with people then after that, what was your experience in sort of engaging
employees around this idea of building a company that cares and that sort of direction for

210
00:18:31,289 --> 00:18:31,849
the firm?

211
00:18:31,849 --> 00:18:34,285
What was the feedback that you got?

212
00:18:35,118 --> 00:18:36,408
Yes, yes.

213
00:18:36,408 --> 00:18:41,498
Well, that's pretty much the point where we met Chris.

214
00:18:42,298 --> 00:18:45,258
And I have to say, I'm very glad that we did.

215
00:18:45,258 --> 00:18:57,938
Because as you know, we went into discussions together and you, I think, clearly
understood what I was trying to achieve and the challenges that lay ahead and so on.

216
00:18:58,178 --> 00:18:59,598
And, and

217
00:18:59,598 --> 00:19:05,558
you know, we did implement the MRI tool, the Market Responsiveness Index.

218
00:19:05,658 --> 00:19:17,738
And in a way, I had said to people that customers are one of our most important three
pillars of the organization.

219
00:19:17,738 --> 00:19:23,658
And I did emphasize to people that we'll only be successful if we care for our customers.

220
00:19:23,658 --> 00:19:26,478
And we did need to gauge and measure.

221
00:19:26,478 --> 00:19:39,318
if you like, you know, where were we at at that point in time of, you know, how customer
centric were we, but also that the tool was a fantastic way to gather up these ideas that

222
00:19:39,318 --> 00:19:45,018
are asked for from people about, you know, what needs to change in the company.

223
00:19:45,118 --> 00:19:55,118
And the funny thing is that the executive team that I inherited and I did make some
changes in that team fairly early on, but at this point,

224
00:19:56,046 --> 00:20:00,926
When I said to people, I'm going to ask everybody in the company what they want.

225
00:20:01,806 --> 00:20:04,806
A couple of people were horrified, you know, you can't do that.

226
00:20:04,806 --> 00:20:07,686
They're going to all ask for more money and we won't be able to give it to them.

227
00:20:07,686 --> 00:20:13,526
And you're just going to disappoint people, David, and you've got the right intention, but
you're getting this all wrong.

228
00:20:13,526 --> 00:20:17,066
And anyway, I kind of backed my intuition, I suppose, on it.

229
00:20:17,426 --> 00:20:20,196
And we did send the MRI out.

230
00:20:20,196 --> 00:20:22,542
And as you know, Chris, to...

231
00:20:22,542 --> 00:20:25,492
Well, there was a 400 person company in those days.

232
00:20:25,492 --> 00:20:27,662
This is just employees.

233
00:20:27,662 --> 00:20:34,242
There were probably double that when we looked at dealers and contractors and sales agents
and people like that.

234
00:20:34,382 --> 00:20:41,552
But we got well over 90 % response rate to a voluntary survey.

235
00:20:41,552 --> 00:20:43,726
People didn't have to reply to it.

236
00:20:43,726 --> 00:20:45,346
But they wanted to, they were hungry.

237
00:20:45,346 --> 00:20:48,326
It's the first time probably they'd ever been asked their opinion.

238
00:20:48,326 --> 00:20:50,826
You know, how do you think we should run this company?

239
00:20:50,906 --> 00:20:55,246
A little bit unprecedented probably again in a Japanese culture.

240
00:20:55,866 --> 00:21:09,926
And, you know, not only did we get a lot of very, very valuable information about people's
attitudes towards the company currently, but we had free text fields where people could

241
00:21:09,926 --> 00:21:13,382
just enter their own thoughts and...

242
00:21:13,902 --> 00:21:24,282
And we got, you know, my memory is something like 800 written responses to a survey that
went out to 400 people.

243
00:21:24,842 --> 00:21:28,532
And I think we handled it quite well.

244
00:21:28,532 --> 00:21:32,802
I went straight back to people to let them know what the response rate had been.

245
00:21:32,862 --> 00:21:37,502
I let people know that I'd read every single survey myself.

246
00:21:37,502 --> 00:21:40,686
So I didn't say, look, I'm a really busy, important...

247
00:21:40,686 --> 00:21:51,086
new managing director, I'll have my secretary read them all and give me the best five
ideas or a team maybe set up to vet them or whatever.

248
00:21:51,086 --> 00:21:55,466
I didn't do that, I did it all myself and I told everybody I did.

249
00:21:55,466 --> 00:22:00,146
If you took the trouble to send an idea in, I read your idea.

250
00:22:00,466 --> 00:22:07,718
And then we went, you know, we went back again subsequently and we, you know, went into a
more sort of nuanced phase of

251
00:22:08,014 --> 00:22:11,334
You're asking for a better culture, what does that look like to you?

252
00:22:11,334 --> 00:22:16,934
Or you're asking for better communication, what are some of your ideas and so on?

253
00:22:16,934 --> 00:22:34,754
And to be honest, off the back of having used the MRI, it kind of lit a fuse, if you like,
and it just created a wave of cultural change within the organization where all of a

254
00:22:34,754 --> 00:22:37,942
sudden people felt like their opinion was valued.

255
00:22:37,998 --> 00:22:41,658
and would be listened to.

256
00:22:41,938 --> 00:22:47,509
And it was absolutely transformative for our organization.

257
00:22:47,509 --> 00:22:55,549
Yeah, you did an incredible job of executing it and really taking action on the feedback
that you were receiving.

258
00:22:55,549 --> 00:23:02,909
And as you said, you know, a number of people in the leadership team, I'm sure, were
concerned about what was going to come.

259
00:23:02,909 --> 00:23:06,489
And that's sort of a natural sort of fear of the unknown.

260
00:23:06,489 --> 00:23:10,499
And, you know, what are people going to ask us to do over time?

261
00:23:10,499 --> 00:23:14,605
How did you find did you did you find the team sort of?

262
00:23:14,805 --> 00:23:24,505
bought into it a little bit more over time as they saw the results coming in and they saw
sort of some of the change happening and saw the direction start to move or how did you

263
00:23:24,505 --> 00:23:28,622
handle that with your leadership?

264
00:23:28,622 --> 00:23:38,422
Yeah, look, I would say definitely that the majority thought, wow, you know, this is quite
a powerful way to go.

265
00:23:38,482 --> 00:23:45,842
And, you know, honestly, the feeling inside the organisation had become more positive and
it was palpable.

266
00:23:45,842 --> 00:23:49,902
You could feel it, you know, people were kind of happier coming to work.

267
00:23:50,802 --> 00:23:54,092
And so there was no denying it.

268
00:23:54,092 --> 00:23:55,854
And then, you know, perhaps...

269
00:23:55,854 --> 00:24:04,234
in a moment we can get onto some things like, you know, did it flow through to commercial
results and so on, but, and they were undeniable because even the greatest skeptic, you

270
00:24:04,234 --> 00:24:07,634
know, couldn't ignore the numbers on the page or whatever.

271
00:24:07,694 --> 00:24:17,694
But, but look, you know, still in any executive team, you probably have a slice of society
and you have some people that are more predisposed to things like this, this sort of

272
00:24:17,694 --> 00:24:23,814
approach and, and some who are less predisposed and whose skills lie in other areas.

273
00:24:23,814 --> 00:24:24,398
And so they don't.

274
00:24:24,398 --> 00:24:30,758
quite have the confidence maybe to reinvent themselves or to embrace other ways of doing
things.

275
00:24:30,758 --> 00:24:38,558
So, you know, the team was always a little bit mixed, but, and of course the other
important stakeholder was Tokyo.

276
00:24:38,558 --> 00:24:41,318
Did Tokyo kind of get this stuff?

277
00:24:41,318 --> 00:24:46,338
And the answer probably was no, not really, because that's not how they operate.

278
00:24:46,338 --> 00:24:52,526
You know, I was supposed to tell everybody below me just to sit and wait and I'd tell them
what to do.

279
00:24:52,526 --> 00:25:07,526
But again, I would never say in any role that you become bulletproof because your results
are good or whatever, that would be folly.

280
00:25:07,806 --> 00:25:15,486
But I think it gave me a degree of licence to run the company the way I wanted to run it.

281
00:25:15,506 --> 00:25:19,666
Because again, Japanese are very results oriented.

282
00:25:19,906 --> 00:25:22,706
And when they see the numbers coming through, well,

283
00:25:22,766 --> 00:25:32,296
They would query a number of things I was doing, but at the end of the day, I would
politely and professionally ask them to back me, please.

284
00:25:32,296 --> 00:25:37,046
I've got a strategy here and know what I'm doing.

285
00:25:37,046 --> 00:25:43,355
They largely let me run the company in Australia the way I felt it should be run.

286
00:25:43,829 --> 00:25:53,549
Yeah, yeah, particularly delivering great results gives you that ability to create more
flexibility for how you want to lead the organization and what you want to do to take it

287
00:25:53,549 --> 00:25:54,549
forward.

288
00:25:55,209 --> 00:26:00,449
And as part of, I know your strategy there was to really engage in some social causes.

289
00:26:00,449 --> 00:26:05,509
I mean, that was feedback, I think, that came from some of the employees as well.

290
00:26:05,509 --> 00:26:13,205
But tell me a bit more about how that sort of manifests in some of the programs that you
came up with to engage employees around that.

291
00:26:13,205 --> 00:26:14,446
that process.

292
00:26:14,446 --> 00:26:16,796
Yeah, so that was directly from them.

293
00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:19,446
That wasn't a top -down instruction from me.

294
00:26:19,446 --> 00:26:21,866
It would, it percolated up.

295
00:26:22,485 --> 00:26:35,036
and, the, the, the thing most often requested if I categorize them, in terms of responses
to the MRI, where the first thing was they wanted better communication.

296
00:26:35,036 --> 00:26:36,286
It was too siloed.

297
00:26:36,286 --> 00:26:38,166
It was too hierarchical.

298
00:26:38,166 --> 00:26:42,190
Every department was just, stuck to themselves.

299
00:26:42,190 --> 00:26:49,450
I mean, I physically knocked down walls and I merged departments and I advised people
about our financial results every single month.

300
00:26:49,450 --> 00:26:52,770
I gave them information they'd never received before.

301
00:26:52,770 --> 00:26:54,600
So communication actually was really easy.

302
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,630
It was kind of the low hanging fruit.

303
00:26:56,630 --> 00:27:00,610
The next most requested thing was more purpose in their jobs.

304
00:27:00,970 --> 00:27:03,930
We didn't have any sort of social outreach programs.

305
00:27:03,930 --> 00:27:05,890
We didn't have charity partnerships.

306
00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:08,150
So we did that.

307
00:27:08,150 --> 00:27:10,700
We actually, again, we took the same approach.

308
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:11,662
We said to our...

309
00:27:11,662 --> 00:27:14,762
team members, look, this is what you've been asking for.

310
00:27:14,762 --> 00:27:18,162
We would like you to vote on who our charity partner should be.

311
00:27:18,162 --> 00:27:25,902
And we just gave them categories of social, environmental, and various categories like
that.

312
00:27:25,902 --> 00:27:28,442
And they voted and it was just completely democratic.

313
00:27:28,442 --> 00:27:31,142
We've got the most votes, they became our charity partner.

314
00:27:31,142 --> 00:27:37,342
So again, we're being inclusive, including people in these things as we went.

315
00:27:37,782 --> 00:27:38,502
And...

316
00:27:38,574 --> 00:27:52,734
But probably the most significant shift in that direction was we used to have an annual
incentive trip overseas where the top performing salespeople and also our dealers would

317
00:27:52,734 --> 00:28:02,794
win a trip overseas if they were X percentage above budget and they and their partner
would go away and would have a gala awards dinner on the main night and all that kind of

318
00:28:02,794 --> 00:28:02,924
thing.

319
00:28:02,924 --> 00:28:06,126
A lot of corporations do, probably a little bit less now, but.

320
00:28:06,126 --> 00:28:12,546
And this particular one coming up, my first one as managing director was in Cambodia.

321
00:28:12,546 --> 00:28:26,186
And we needed a keynote speaker, but goodness me, I'd never been to Cambodia and I didn't
know any Cambodian keynote speakers, but I had a woman recommended to me who had spent the

322
00:28:26,186 --> 00:28:35,342
last 20 years of her life rescuing young girls who'd been trafficked from regional
villages into the...

323
00:28:35,342 --> 00:28:40,742
into the brothel systems of the main cities in Cambodia.

324
00:28:40,742 --> 00:28:50,042
She'd been rescuing them and going through a process of rehabilitation and getting them
into school and in a few cases even university.

325
00:28:50,042 --> 00:28:57,122
And so I was very reticent that that was the right sort of speaker to have at a awards
dinner.

326
00:28:57,122 --> 00:29:00,062
But I was told there was light at the end of the tunnel.

327
00:29:00,062 --> 00:29:01,432
It was a very inspiring story.

328
00:29:01,432 --> 00:29:02,862
And so we went ahead.

329
00:29:02,862 --> 00:29:11,302
And, and that woman actually brought five young women with her, five who had managed to
qualify for university.

330
00:29:12,012 --> 00:29:16,582
and, they'd had funding for the first year, but there was no funding after that.

331
00:29:16,582 --> 00:29:27,222
So, there's an expression in the human rights world, which is, once you know, you can't
unknow and once you've seen, you can't unsee.

332
00:29:27,552 --> 00:29:30,668
so pretty much, you know, these were the first.

333
00:29:30,830 --> 00:29:34,290
people that have been enslaved that we'd ever met in our lives.

334
00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:45,250
And we decided on the spot that we'd add this organization, it's called AFESIP, it's an
acronym, French acronym for assisting women in distressing situations.

335
00:29:45,250 --> 00:29:56,770
We'd add them to our charity partnerships and we put in place salary match giving and
annual donations from the company and things of that nature.

336
00:29:57,130 --> 00:29:57,614
And...

337
00:29:57,614 --> 00:30:00,514
And the staff just really, really, really got behind it.

338
00:30:00,514 --> 00:30:11,061
It was just another one of those ways of including people and responding to people's
requests as to what sort of company did they want us to be.

339
00:30:11,061 --> 00:30:12,731
Yeah, that's a great story, David.

340
00:30:12,731 --> 00:30:22,601
I mean, I think it really speaks, doesn't it, to this yearning that most people have for
sort of more meaning in the work that they're doing.

341
00:30:22,601 --> 00:30:24,921
And, you know, that's one element.

342
00:30:24,921 --> 00:30:28,981
You know, there's a lot of talk about purpose in business and how that manifests.

343
00:30:28,981 --> 00:30:32,481
And it manifests a little bit differently for everyone, doesn't it?

344
00:30:32,481 --> 00:30:37,941
And from our perspective, a lot of that can manifest through the customer engagement.

345
00:30:37,973 --> 00:30:41,003
and how you treat customers and how you're delivering value for them.

346
00:30:41,003 --> 00:30:47,453
But it's also through these other engagements with social causes and things that are
meaningful to individuals.

347
00:30:47,453 --> 00:30:55,213
So I can see how that would really drive a lot of engagement for people and make it a more
attractive place to be part of.

348
00:30:55,213 --> 00:30:57,913
Did you get that sort of feedback from people?

349
00:30:58,466 --> 00:30:59,926
yes, definitely.

350
00:31:00,546 --> 00:31:13,946
I couldn't walk down the corridor or go into the lunchroom to make a coffee or get in the
lift without people commenting about the positive changes that they felt were taking

351
00:31:13,946 --> 00:31:15,026
place.

352
00:31:17,294 --> 00:31:27,474
you know, I might tell a particularly poignant story towards the back end of our chat this
morning because I say the back end because I do tend to choke up a bit when I tell this

353
00:31:27,474 --> 00:31:31,154
story, but you mentioned customer there.

354
00:31:31,274 --> 00:31:41,334
And so, you know, these initiatives I've indicated really galvanized our company
internally and our people.

355
00:31:41,854 --> 00:31:43,238
But...

356
00:31:43,374 --> 00:31:49,674
But it was very interesting that what started to happen also was that our commercial
results started to improve quite dramatically.

357
00:31:49,894 --> 00:32:01,174
And one area that we'd never particularly penetrated in the market was the major corporate
area, which was disappointing for me because I'd set up that program at Canon.

358
00:32:03,034 --> 00:32:11,822
But if you were going to get three quotes as a large corporate or you wanted to sort of
run with one of the big providers and...

359
00:32:11,822 --> 00:32:14,002
you know, be a pretty safe bet.

360
00:32:14,002 --> 00:32:16,882
We probably wouldn't get on your shopping list.

361
00:32:17,122 --> 00:32:26,542
You know, there's an old expression, nobody ever got fired for buying from IBM because,
you know, it's a pretty, you know, even if it didn't go well, it's a pretty easy decision

362
00:32:26,542 --> 00:32:28,002
to justify.

363
00:32:28,042 --> 00:32:39,950
And if you're a big corporate letting an Australian wide contract or in some cases,
Australian companies doing a global contract out of Australia, then...

364
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:44,330
then typically Konica Minolta didn't come into the discussion.

365
00:32:44,650 --> 00:32:51,970
But we started to win these contracts and I might have been involved at the front end with
the pitch, but sometimes I wasn't.

366
00:32:51,970 --> 00:32:56,970
But in every case, when the contract was awarded, I'd go and I would thank them.

367
00:32:57,290 --> 00:33:00,750
And typically I'd say, look, thank you very much.

368
00:33:00,750 --> 00:33:04,950
We're very appreciative of becoming your technology partner.

369
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:09,830
And we think you've made a great decision because we actually think we're a really, really
good company.

370
00:33:09,838 --> 00:33:15,038
But may I ask, please, how did you come to that conclusion?

371
00:33:15,318 --> 00:33:18,718
And typically, they'd say something like this.

372
00:33:18,718 --> 00:33:24,078
Look, our tender evaluation team went through the normal processes.

373
00:33:24,078 --> 00:33:34,578
And what they determined was pretty much for multifunction device, network printing and
scanning devices, everybody's products are pretty much the same.

374
00:33:34,578 --> 00:33:37,414
Everybody's service levels are pretty much the same.

375
00:33:37,454 --> 00:33:42,614
everybody's pricing was remarkably similar for a big contract like this.

376
00:33:42,634 --> 00:33:49,534
And so ordinarily there would be no reason to change and we'd just stick with our current
supplier, who we're pretty happy with.

377
00:33:49,534 --> 00:33:55,334
And that would save all the pain of changing network protocols and retraining staff and
all that kind of stuff.

378
00:33:56,134 --> 00:34:05,476
And then they'd either say, but this time we decided or sometimes they'd say this time our
internal governance procedures now require us.

379
00:34:05,966 --> 00:34:12,126
to not only focus on what it is you're trying to sell us, but to focus on who you are.

380
00:34:12,166 --> 00:34:14,806
And I found that a very compelling expression.

381
00:34:14,806 --> 00:34:19,726
We now want to know who we're buying from, not just what you're selling.

382
00:34:19,846 --> 00:34:27,646
And they said, and when we did that, and one man summed that up beautifully, he said, you
all come in here trying to sell your bright new shiny cars.

383
00:34:27,646 --> 00:34:30,506
We weren't selling cars, of course, but that was his analogy.

384
00:34:30,506 --> 00:34:34,066
And he said, and now we look under the hood.

385
00:34:34,382 --> 00:34:38,222
It's that same concept to see who you are as a company.

386
00:34:38,322 --> 00:34:47,382
And time and time again, these people said to me, when we looked under the hood, or when
we looked deeply at who you were, we saw significant differences.

387
00:34:47,382 --> 00:34:53,282
Now all the companies were good companies, by the way, but what they had said is we felt
you're an exceptional company.

388
00:34:53,402 --> 00:35:01,710
We were aware of the vision statement you made, you know, initially when you took over,
we're aware of the internal programs you've introduced.

389
00:35:01,710 --> 00:35:05,070
We're aware of your charity partnerships and everybody's got them.

390
00:35:05,070 --> 00:35:09,330
You guys seem to be having deeper relationships with these people.

391
00:35:09,330 --> 00:35:14,450
And you're not just doing corporate social responsibility, you're taking on a human rights
issue.

392
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:17,130
Young women being trafficked.

393
00:35:17,330 --> 00:35:20,300
A lot of companies won't go anywhere near something like slavery.

394
00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:30,010
And we'd moved into things like ethical sourcing, looking at where the goods that were
used in our business, where were they made, were the people paid a living wage, et cetera,

395
00:35:30,010 --> 00:35:30,926
et cetera.

396
00:35:30,926 --> 00:35:35,806
And the thing is, it's really easy to do research on a company.

397
00:35:35,806 --> 00:35:40,126
You can really find out a lot about who they are.

398
00:35:40,126 --> 00:35:42,226
And these companies were doing that now.

399
00:35:42,226 --> 00:35:52,226
And at the end of the discussion, they would say to me, so when it came down to the final
decision, we felt that your values and our values were very closely aligned.

400
00:35:52,226 --> 00:35:55,006
And we think you're a really good fit for us.

401
00:35:55,006 --> 00:35:57,866
And we think that we'll probably be partners for a very long while.

402
00:35:57,866 --> 00:36:00,166
And that proved to be the case.

403
00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:10,042
So we didn't think there was any link between improving our internal culture and the
marketplace, but there was a direct link.

404
00:36:10,453 --> 00:36:13,393
Yeah, yeah, that's a fantastic example, isn't it?

405
00:36:13,393 --> 00:36:21,533
And I mean, it allowed you to stand out in the marketplace in a unique way in a market
that's very commoditized as you described there.

406
00:36:22,453 --> 00:36:36,713
When you think about the your own journey, your leadership journey through these different
firms over many years, I mean, are there things that were real challenges or setbacks that

407
00:36:36,713 --> 00:36:38,901
you had that sort of stood out and

408
00:36:38,901 --> 00:36:42,701
made you rethink or move in different directions?

409
00:36:42,701 --> 00:36:46,051
Is there any sort of stories around that?

410
00:36:46,051 --> 00:36:56,081
For instance, I just had a recent guest on that that told me about a situation where he
made an investment for the company that ultimately cost the company $200 million.

411
00:36:56,081 --> 00:37:02,961
Now that's a pretty big setback and learning, but he was supported and they learnt a lot
from that experience.

412
00:37:02,961 --> 00:37:07,413
But was there something that you had in your own journey?

413
00:37:07,413 --> 00:37:13,806
something along those lines that was a big learning and lesson for you.

414
00:37:13,806 --> 00:37:18,206
Yeah, look, I think I learned many things.

415
00:37:18,586 --> 00:37:24,446
Probably one of the big ones for me was really just have the courage of your convictions.

416
00:37:24,446 --> 00:37:37,566
And even when there are people, very influential people, you know, your boss and so on,
that might want you to take a different direction to what you truly believe in, you have

417
00:37:37,566 --> 00:37:40,086
to stay true to who you are.

418
00:37:40,462 --> 00:37:44,962
if you really feel you're doing the right thing by the company that you're working for.

419
00:37:45,042 --> 00:37:55,782
And after my first full year as managing director, I visited Tokyo each quarter, but I was
up there now for the full year review with my boss.

420
00:37:56,962 --> 00:38:00,142
And my appointment was the following day.

421
00:38:00,142 --> 00:38:06,862
I arrived in Tokyo the night before and my hotel was next to the office in Maranuchi, the
business district.

422
00:38:06,862 --> 00:38:09,134
And I thought, well, six o 'clock,

423
00:38:09,134 --> 00:38:10,594
you know, people will still be there.

424
00:38:10,594 --> 00:38:16,954
I'll just pop in and say hello to a few colleagues and then I'll go and book into the
hotel.

425
00:38:16,954 --> 00:38:18,634
And my boss happened to see me.

426
00:38:18,634 --> 00:38:23,314
He was one of the very few people, in fact, the only person on the floor that had an
office.

427
00:38:23,494 --> 00:38:26,294
And he motioned for me to come over.

428
00:38:26,294 --> 00:38:28,814
So I came over and he said, sit down.

429
00:38:28,814 --> 00:38:37,326
And he said, look, I know we're not meeting till tomorrow formally, but he said, I just
need to tell you that I'm really disappointed in your first year.

430
00:38:37,326 --> 00:38:40,166
And I said, that's interesting.

431
00:38:40,166 --> 00:38:42,386
Let's talk more about that.

432
00:38:42,386 --> 00:38:51,946
Because really we'd gone from losing money to making a little bit of money and our market
share had gone up and things are going pretty well, I thought.

433
00:38:52,026 --> 00:38:58,846
And I said to him, look, I kind of thought we're going to have a different conversation,
but let's talk about this.

434
00:38:59,666 --> 00:39:04,186
And what's the main reason for your disappointment?

435
00:39:04,246 --> 00:39:07,087
And he said, I just think you could have done so much better.

436
00:39:07,598 --> 00:39:12,978
And I said, well, in a way, that's a real compliment to me because the results have
improved a lot.

437
00:39:12,978 --> 00:39:18,658
But you're kind of saying I reached this level, but you thought I could actually go to
that level in my first year.

438
00:39:18,658 --> 00:39:21,338
And he said, yeah, I think you could have.

439
00:39:21,338 --> 00:39:26,158
And I said, what do you think got in the way or held me back?

440
00:39:26,158 --> 00:39:28,258
And he said, it's really easy to answer.

441
00:39:28,258 --> 00:39:34,098
He said, all that corporate social responsibility you do, you just let yourself get
distracted.

442
00:39:34,918 --> 00:39:37,102
You know, you should have just stuck to

443
00:39:37,102 --> 00:39:39,342
you know, selling more product.

444
00:39:39,402 --> 00:39:44,802
And I said, well, you know, I really appreciate your honesty in giving me that feedback.

445
00:39:44,802 --> 00:39:59,822
But let's talk about that a little bit because I said, I would argue that the reason that
we have improved the financial results, the commercial results is because we did those

446
00:39:59,822 --> 00:40:00,162
things.

447
00:40:00,162 --> 00:40:04,270
We did it because we moved from a disengaged

448
00:40:04,270 --> 00:40:08,050
workforce, if you like, to a fully engaged group of people.

449
00:40:08,050 --> 00:40:15,730
We earn the respect of our customers and, you know, we've earned a lot of respect out
there in the marketplace as well.

450
00:40:15,730 --> 00:40:19,210
So I think it directly fed into our success.

451
00:40:19,270 --> 00:40:22,270
And he said, I completely disagree with you.

452
00:40:22,270 --> 00:40:25,870
And he waved his arm and motioned for me to leave his office.

453
00:40:25,870 --> 00:40:29,210
And I said, OK, well, again, I appreciate the feedback.

454
00:40:29,210 --> 00:40:31,800
And I said, I'm going to go back to my hotel now.

455
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,582
And of course, what's going to happen?

456
00:40:33,582 --> 00:40:39,482
is I'm going to sit there and I'm going to contemplate very deeply the feedback that
you've just given me.

457
00:40:39,482 --> 00:40:45,842
I respect you greatly as a senior global business leader and I'll be thinking about every
word that you shared with me.

458
00:40:45,842 --> 00:40:48,702
So thank you and I'll see you in the morning.

459
00:40:49,462 --> 00:41:03,866
Now, he didn't see me in the morning because I'd crossed the line of what was considered
to be a polite way to interact with your boss in a Tokyo head office.

460
00:41:03,950 --> 00:41:11,330
I hadn't just simply said, yes, you're right and acknowledged and changed what I was doing
and dropped all of those things.

461
00:41:11,610 --> 00:41:13,650
And the reason I didn't was in good conscience.

462
00:41:13,650 --> 00:41:16,510
I knew that were the pillars of our success.

463
00:41:16,510 --> 00:41:23,830
And as a human being, I didn't want to just be somebody that couldn't exercise who they
were.

464
00:41:23,830 --> 00:41:29,510
So I actually didn't have a choice but to keep doing what we were always doing.

465
00:41:29,950 --> 00:41:33,402
But he didn't speak to me for nearly a year.

466
00:41:33,934 --> 00:41:37,324
He ended up being moved into a different role at the end of that year.

467
00:41:37,324 --> 00:41:43,594
So he was my boss for two years, but he mostly interacted through other people rather than
having direct contact with me.

468
00:41:43,594 --> 00:41:49,114
And then I bumped into him at a big trade show in Germany just at the end of his time.

469
00:41:49,114 --> 00:41:51,484
And I was very, very pleased.

470
00:41:51,484 --> 00:42:03,182
He came over to me and very warmly thanked me for my time contribution to the company when
he was my boss and, you know, genuinely asked how I was and...

471
00:42:03,182 --> 00:42:04,922
how my family was and everything.

472
00:42:04,922 --> 00:42:11,262
And it was really a lovely way to tie up our two years relationship.

473
00:42:11,582 --> 00:42:14,642
And it kind of said, look, that was water under the bridge.

474
00:42:14,642 --> 00:42:18,902
We didn't always agree, but we still maintained mutual respect.

475
00:42:19,161 --> 00:42:27,922
But I've used that as a lesson in saying to people, if you think you're doing the right
thing, stay the course.

476
00:42:27,922 --> 00:42:29,182
It's going to work out.

477
00:42:29,182 --> 00:42:32,526
It might be a bit tough for a while, but always be true to yourself.

478
00:42:32,526 --> 00:42:34,618
and it'll be fine.

479
00:42:34,741 --> 00:42:38,481
It's tremendous conviction there, David, isn't it?

480
00:42:38,621 --> 00:42:43,861
And certainly very challenging for people to be able to do that in that situation.

481
00:42:43,861 --> 00:42:59,601
So it's an incredible example of conviction and following through and not taking sort of
that feedback and using it to change course when it was unnecessary in your view.

482
00:42:59,601 --> 00:43:02,485
And obviously you were delivering results, perhaps.

483
00:43:02,485 --> 00:43:07,625
He had a different view of what those results should have been, but you were the one that
was doing it.

484
00:43:07,625 --> 00:43:10,094
So it's a great story.

485
00:43:10,094 --> 00:43:11,494
Yeah, yeah.

486
00:43:11,494 --> 00:43:24,354
And, you know, I mean, we didn't do a lot of the things that we did as a commercial
strategy to increase revenue and grow market share and increase profitability.

487
00:43:24,354 --> 00:43:26,394
It wasn't like that.

488
00:43:27,114 --> 00:43:37,998
The commercial results spilt out of a, they were the results of doing something whereby we
wanted to care for our people.

489
00:43:38,414 --> 00:43:42,074
and we wanted to be open, honest and transparent with our customers.

490
00:43:42,074 --> 00:43:47,494
And we felt that we should be having a footprint in society that made a positive
contribution.

491
00:43:47,494 --> 00:43:55,094
So it was the focus on doing the good, but just automatically you get that reward.

492
00:43:55,094 --> 00:44:03,194
I don't exactly know how the system works, but we didn't have to focus on the numbers.

493
00:44:03,914 --> 00:44:04,838
And...

494
00:44:05,593 --> 00:44:05,813
great.

495
00:44:05,813 --> 00:44:19,013
I mean, I think there's a lot of good evidence that shows that people that feel like they
matter in an organization, people that are going to contribute back to that organization

496
00:44:19,013 --> 00:44:29,673
at a much higher level, right, which is really what employee engagement is about, is that,
you know, if I think the senior leader actually cares about me more than just being sort

497
00:44:29,673 --> 00:44:32,461
of delivering a number, then...

498
00:44:32,629 --> 00:44:35,849
then maybe I should be doing more to contribute to the company.

499
00:44:35,849 --> 00:44:40,939
So I think that there's a lot of good evidence that I've seen that shows those
connections.

500
00:44:40,939 --> 00:44:44,935
And I think you've proven that out in the work that you've been doing.

501
00:44:44,942 --> 00:44:48,002
Yeah, and Chris, there is evidence.

502
00:44:48,822 --> 00:44:53,722
But I think it's a lot more powerful than people realise, I think.

503
00:44:54,042 --> 00:45:04,862
And it wasn't until we used the MRI and went out to everybody and said, every single
person in this company matters and your views matter, please come back and interact with

504
00:45:04,862 --> 00:45:06,982
us, that we probably realised it.

505
00:45:06,982 --> 00:45:08,622
But I mentioned earlier that I...

506
00:45:08,622 --> 00:45:13,482
I would like to tell one story about how connected people started to feel.

507
00:45:13,482 --> 00:45:15,342
So I'll share that now.

508
00:45:15,442 --> 00:45:25,822
But after it was during my first year, I think I invited everybody who'd been in the
company for 25 years or more to come to Sydney.

509
00:45:25,822 --> 00:45:30,802
And I said, I just want to take you out to dinner as a group and thank you for your
loyalty to the company.

510
00:45:31,542 --> 00:45:36,992
And, you know, the company had been going for 40 years and some people had worked there
that whole time.

511
00:45:36,992 --> 00:45:38,574
It's quite amazing, really.

512
00:45:38,574 --> 00:45:45,254
But, and there were about a dozen people and they're all field service engineers.

513
00:45:45,254 --> 00:45:54,834
So, you know, when you're in the office and you're printing to that multifunction device
and it jams and the paper doesn't come out the end of it or whatever and you kick it and

514
00:45:54,834 --> 00:45:55,674
that doesn't work.

515
00:45:55,674 --> 00:46:00,564
So you ring up the number and a service engineer comes in and sorts it out for you.

516
00:46:00,564 --> 00:46:05,154
Those people, they were the ones who stayed the longest in the company.

517
00:46:05,154 --> 00:46:08,206
And we were just in a public restaurant.

518
00:46:08,206 --> 00:46:13,606
No private dining room or anything, having a cheap and cheerful nice night out.

519
00:46:13,606 --> 00:46:19,866
And we got to the end of the meal and one man who hadn't spoken all evening said, would
you mind if I say something?

520
00:46:19,866 --> 00:46:23,586
And I said, no, of course, I'd be delighted.

521
00:46:23,726 --> 00:46:31,826
And he stood up in the middle of this public restaurant and he made what I'm sure was the
first speech he'd ever made in his life.

522
00:46:31,866 --> 00:46:35,320
People turned around in the restaurant to see what was going on.

523
00:46:35,406 --> 00:46:38,296
And he said, I've worked here for over 25 years.

524
00:46:38,296 --> 00:46:40,686
That's why you invited me this evening.

525
00:46:40,686 --> 00:46:44,346
And for that entire time, I never told anybody where I worked.

526
00:46:44,346 --> 00:46:46,546
I just didn't see the point.

527
00:46:46,606 --> 00:46:50,606
It was just a job, just a place I went to.

528
00:46:50,606 --> 00:46:55,966
And that's, I did a fair days work for a fair days pay and that's how I fed my family.

529
00:46:56,746 --> 00:46:59,982
So, but now I tell every single person I meet.

530
00:46:59,982 --> 00:47:01,862
that I work for Conica Minolta.

531
00:47:01,862 --> 00:47:03,562
And why would I do that?

532
00:47:03,562 --> 00:47:15,762
I do that because I feel so proud to work for an organisation that would care about young
women who've been trafficked into a life of sexual slavery on the other side of the world.

533
00:47:15,802 --> 00:47:17,966
Now,

534
00:47:17,966 --> 00:47:29,186
Anybody that manages one person or a team or a department or an entire company, I think
would agree that the Holy Grail is getting everybody on the same page, all pulling

535
00:47:29,186 --> 00:47:31,906
together and all fully engaged.

536
00:47:31,986 --> 00:47:35,246
But it's very challenging to do that.

537
00:47:35,246 --> 00:47:44,206
What happened in this case was that this man's engagement meter went from disengaged, he's
a good enough company to stay, but he wasn't engaged.

538
00:47:44,206 --> 00:47:48,206
It moved from disengaged to engaged and the meter kept going.

539
00:47:48,206 --> 00:47:59,526
He ended up as a loyal public advocate for our company, which was completely outside of
his day job, if you like, but he felt compelled to tell people who he worked for and why

540
00:47:59,526 --> 00:48:02,026
he worked there and how proud he was.

541
00:48:02,686 --> 00:48:03,598
And.

542
00:48:03,598 --> 00:48:15,178
And I would have had 50 people subsequently at different stages say something similar to
me, like I say when I'm in the coffee queue or whatever it might be.

543
00:48:15,178 --> 00:48:29,458
And so it's not why we did it, but gosh, including people making them feel cared for and
that their opinion is respected is incredibly powerful in terms of what you can unleash in

544
00:48:29,458 --> 00:48:30,538
a company.

545
00:48:30,549 --> 00:48:33,209
Yeah, what a powerful example that is, David.

546
00:48:33,209 --> 00:48:46,529
And I think that also speaks to this linkage between employee engagement and people that
are really passionate and engaged and customer engagement too, and customers being that,

547
00:48:46,529 --> 00:48:55,529
because we've got stories of the customer, you know, that was having a bad experience,
wasn't being treated appropriately and turning them into advocates too, right?

548
00:48:55,529 --> 00:48:58,683
And it's a similar process that you're really doing.

549
00:48:58,683 --> 00:48:59,157
And

550
00:48:59,157 --> 00:49:08,977
And so, you know, the two things are very deeply linked and it's something that we've sort
of looked at and known about for a long time, but it's now starting to be, I think, more

551
00:49:08,977 --> 00:49:14,493
and more recognised as those links become clearer.

552
00:49:14,510 --> 00:49:15,640
I think so.

553
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:23,910
And I think if you head down that customer engagement path, I would encourage everybody to
push it to its limits.

554
00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:25,280
Don't put a limit on it.

555
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:33,310
So for instance, when we'd have these annual conferences, we would invite some of our
customers to sit in on the conference.

556
00:49:34,030 --> 00:49:41,838
Yeah, there's a few trade secrets being delivered that day, new product releases that'll
come out in three months time, or it might be.

557
00:49:41,838 --> 00:49:47,298
to the salespeople that had gathered there and our dealers, but that was fine.

558
00:49:47,298 --> 00:49:49,898
So we'd have some customers in the audience.

559
00:49:49,898 --> 00:49:51,818
Sometimes we'd have them up on stage.

560
00:49:51,818 --> 00:49:54,858
We might get a procurement person to give us a talk.

561
00:49:54,858 --> 00:49:55,978
What's important to them?

562
00:49:55,978 --> 00:50:00,098
What do they value most when somebody's coming in and trying to sell them something?

563
00:50:00,098 --> 00:50:04,038
Or we'd have them on a panel, a facilitated panel.

564
00:50:04,478 --> 00:50:08,718
And even sometimes outside of a conference arena,

565
00:50:08,718 --> 00:50:19,738
If we were going to make a fairly important shift in strategy or market positioning or
whatever, and we had to refine that or make final decisions, sometimes we'd bring a

566
00:50:19,738 --> 00:50:28,758
customer into the boardroom and say, look, you're very important to us and your opinion is
very important, and you have knowledge and skills that we don't have.

567
00:50:28,958 --> 00:50:34,498
And we don't ever want our business relationship with you to be a transactional one.

568
00:50:34,498 --> 00:50:38,478
We want it to have much more depth to it than that.

569
00:50:38,478 --> 00:50:47,138
would you have an hour or two to give us to come in and be a part of that meeting to help
us in our strategy shift?

570
00:50:47,638 --> 00:50:51,918
And so again, it's just all about inclusivity.

571
00:50:51,918 --> 00:51:03,518
It's just not seeing boundaries of seller, buyer, external society, the employees, family,
all these things being completely different.

572
00:51:03,518 --> 00:51:05,986
We're all completely interconnected.

573
00:51:06,062 --> 00:51:11,942
And we started to introduce a lot of internal policies that would support people in their
family life.

574
00:51:12,522 --> 00:51:22,702
Parental leave policies and domestic violence policies and things of that nature as well,
because we saw people's families as being part of our ecosphere.

575
00:51:22,702 --> 00:51:31,742
What I didn't want was a company that saw that the company began when somebody walked
through the front door and it ended when they walked out of that same door at the end of

576
00:51:31,742 --> 00:51:32,862
the day.

577
00:51:32,862 --> 00:51:36,000
We wanted to see ourself connected.

578
00:51:36,014 --> 00:51:40,694
with people, with their families outside of work, with the community.

579
00:51:40,694 --> 00:51:52,954
And then as I say, we even moved into things like assessing our supply chains globally in
terms of where uniforms were made and who made them and how much were people paid and were

580
00:51:52,954 --> 00:51:54,474
they treated well.

581
00:51:54,654 --> 00:52:00,114
And we had a very broad vision rather than a very narrow vision.

582
00:52:00,114 --> 00:52:03,989
And I really feel it was the right way to run the company.

583
00:52:03,989 --> 00:52:15,869
Yeah, you speak to a couple of interesting challenges there, you know, this transactional
mindset versus more of a relational mindset, you know, where sort of doing deals all the

584
00:52:15,869 --> 00:52:22,089
time versus thinking more long term about, you know, this is a partnership where we can
work together.

585
00:52:22,649 --> 00:52:28,089
What is what's been your experience at trying to overcome some of that transactional
mindset?

586
00:52:28,089 --> 00:52:33,309
Is there are there things that leaders can do to help?

587
00:52:33,621 --> 00:52:38,413
help people move beyond that, move beyond that shorter term thinking.

588
00:52:39,086 --> 00:52:42,276
Yeah, I look there are challenges.

589
00:52:42,276 --> 00:52:55,386
I think the challenges are probably say in our case, the direct sales business and we will
be to be not be to see the challenge probably lies at that at the co -face with the

590
00:52:55,386 --> 00:52:57,666
salesperson and the account executive.

591
00:52:58,166 --> 00:53:07,534
You know, who, you know, might might be sort of living month to month against a budget and
to say to them, yeah, we want you to make your budget this month and every month.

592
00:53:07,534 --> 00:53:16,774
but please elevate your vision so that you do build this longer term relationship with
your clients because that will pay dividends.

593
00:53:16,774 --> 00:53:29,334
And I think the best way for any senior person in an organization to reinforce that
probably is to model it themself, which is almost like saying, well, this is the way I do

594
00:53:29,334 --> 00:53:35,414
it and hey, here are some successes, but also I'm giving you license to do it as well.

595
00:53:35,414 --> 00:53:37,262
And I'm asking you to do it.

596
00:53:37,262 --> 00:53:49,002
So I remember we were pitching for one very large contract, arguably one of the largest in
Australia, and we'd never been a supplier.

597
00:53:49,442 --> 00:53:54,062
In their thinking, we probably weren't going to get on a short list or whatever.

598
00:53:54,222 --> 00:54:02,830
And I went along with the local manager in Canberra, it was, and...

599
00:54:02,830 --> 00:54:04,860
And we sat in front of a panel.

600
00:54:04,860 --> 00:54:14,050
If you've ever seen Senate estimates in Parliament, you know, there'll be sort of seven or
eight people in a panel and then there's some poor bunny sitting at a microphone out the

601
00:54:14,050 --> 00:54:15,310
front and they grill them.

602
00:54:15,310 --> 00:54:17,850
It was exactly like that.

603
00:54:18,430 --> 00:54:28,974
And it opened up with the most senior finance person, it was the Department of Finance
running this process, said...

604
00:54:28,974 --> 00:54:35,654
Look, as you would be aware, you're nowhere near as big as a lot of the other people who
are interested in obtaining this contract.

605
00:54:35,654 --> 00:54:43,194
And although it's going to be a panel contract of a number of suppliers, we're only going
to have a very small number.

606
00:54:43,374 --> 00:54:48,414
And so you know that there's going to be bigger, there are big competitors than you.

607
00:54:48,414 --> 00:54:54,994
So why would we even think about selecting you and putting you on the panel?

608
00:54:55,214 --> 00:54:58,344
And so we started to unpack that discussion.

609
00:54:58,606 --> 00:55:12,166
And I said to this particular woman, well, you've obviously indicated to me that size is
very important to you in terms of a big supplier, but can we have a look at maybe some of

610
00:55:12,166 --> 00:55:15,686
the advantages of dealing with a mid -tier size supplier?

611
00:55:15,686 --> 00:55:19,006
And she responded that she didn't really think there were any.

612
00:55:19,426 --> 00:55:22,926
And I had the Japanese managing director with us then.

613
00:55:22,926 --> 00:55:25,706
This is just before I became MD.

614
00:55:25,806 --> 00:55:26,894
And...

615
00:55:26,894 --> 00:55:34,204
And I said, may I ask if any of the other suppliers had their managing director come in
and talk to you throughout this process?

616
00:55:34,204 --> 00:55:35,334
And they said, no.

617
00:55:35,334 --> 00:55:37,174
I said, well, there's one difference.

618
00:55:37,174 --> 00:55:49,874
And I said, if we were fortunate enough to become your supplier, another difference is
from time to time, we're likely to make mistakes and breach contractual terms.

619
00:55:49,874 --> 00:55:56,302
So the contract might say that we have to supply you within five days to every location.

620
00:55:56,302 --> 00:56:04,162
But you might order a very large number at the one time, a thousand devices, and we might
only have 800 in the warehouse and we can't deliver the next 200.

621
00:56:04,162 --> 00:56:13,672
We're technically in breach of contract, but anytime anything goes wrong, you can ring our
managing director or the department can.

622
00:56:13,882 --> 00:56:15,142
He will take their call.

623
00:56:15,142 --> 00:56:16,642
I'll take their call.

624
00:56:16,642 --> 00:56:25,934
So again, you know, possibly a slightly smaller but more nimble and agile and open and
receptive organization might bring some qualities to bear.

625
00:56:25,934 --> 00:56:31,454
that it may be a much, much bigger, more detached type of organisation, mightn't be able
to.

626
00:56:31,454 --> 00:56:37,314
Anyway, the thing is we got on that panel at the expense of some other much bigger ones.

627
00:56:37,314 --> 00:56:48,054
And during the process of negotiating the legal contract, they brought in a government
solicitor to run the negotiations and so on.

628
00:56:48,054 --> 00:56:51,414
And one of the very first points they put up was about interest rates.

629
00:56:51,414 --> 00:56:54,894
We want the interest rate fixed on these leases.

630
00:56:54,894 --> 00:56:56,374
for five years.

631
00:56:56,374 --> 00:56:59,174
And I said, we're not able to do that.

632
00:56:59,394 --> 00:57:02,514
Because I can't predict what interest rates are going to do.

633
00:57:02,514 --> 00:57:05,254
And if you read the press, they're probably going to go up.

634
00:57:05,254 --> 00:57:10,654
And the margins don't allow us to take a risk of that nature.

635
00:57:10,654 --> 00:57:17,374
And they said, well, if you can't get beyond that, we can't proceed any further, because
that's a deal breaker for us.

636
00:57:17,374 --> 00:57:21,734
And then I said, well, could we potentially...

637
00:57:21,838 --> 00:57:27,998
I need to go back and have some internal discussions with finance people about how long we
can fix it for.

638
00:57:27,998 --> 00:57:33,458
Turned out we ended up agreeing to fix it for six months in a five -year contract, not
five years.

639
00:57:33,458 --> 00:57:40,338
But I said, could we please just park that for the moment and discuss some of the other
points and I'll come back to you as soon as possible.

640
00:57:40,338 --> 00:57:41,638
So they agreed.

641
00:57:41,638 --> 00:57:47,378
Anyway, we got our way through it all and we didn't agree to the five years.

642
00:57:47,458 --> 00:57:51,630
We made sensible decisions and I told them why we were making these decisions.

643
00:57:51,630 --> 00:57:53,890
They're in everybody's best interests.

644
00:57:53,890 --> 00:58:05,570
And then I got a letter from the solicitor who ran the negotiations completely unsolicited
after it was all signed, sealed and delivered.

645
00:58:05,570 --> 00:58:10,080
And he said, I do this for my job every single day.

646
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,150
I negotiate huge government contracts.

647
00:58:14,210 --> 00:58:21,190
And he said, I just wanted to say to you, I've never seen a contract negotiated in such
good spirit.

648
00:58:21,550 --> 00:58:28,770
He said constantly, we met them one day a week for six weeks in a row in Canberra.

649
00:58:28,770 --> 00:58:39,150
And he said, it was negotiated in such good spirit that you were constantly talking about
what was good for them as well as what was good for you.

650
00:58:39,150 --> 00:58:42,160
You didn't just try and negotiate the best contract for yourself.

651
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,570
And he said, it's rare to see that.

652
00:58:44,570 --> 00:58:51,470
And he said, if you manage the contract with the same mindset,

653
00:58:51,470 --> 00:59:01,250
of putting the customer, you know, at the heart of things, the same way that you did the
negotiation, you'll hold this contract for a very, very long period of time, which has

654
00:59:01,250 --> 00:59:03,110
proven to be the case.

655
00:59:03,410 --> 00:59:07,190
But again, it's just about connectedness.

656
00:59:07,190 --> 00:59:11,410
You know, we're all in this together, whoever the all is.

657
00:59:11,410 --> 00:59:19,918
And I think if you have that mindset, rather than just what's best for me, what's best for
my company, then your company will shh, you know.

658
00:59:19,918 --> 00:59:22,438
surely it will thrive.

659
00:59:22,638 --> 00:59:29,258
And that's a true essence of sustainability, I think, not environmental sustainability,
but longevity.

660
00:59:29,258 --> 00:59:39,478
That's what builds long companies that are going to be around for a long while, those that
connect with and care for all stakeholders.

661
00:59:40,053 --> 00:59:41,733
That's a great example, David.

662
00:59:41,733 --> 00:59:47,553
And it prompts me to think about one of the challenges that a lot of people have in this
area.

663
00:59:47,553 --> 00:59:55,903
When we talk about being customer centric is well, you know, that doesn't that mean we do
everything for the customer sort of thing?

664
00:59:55,903 --> 01:00:02,173
There's a fear that and that's to us, that's more sort of being compelled, customer
compelled, right?

665
01:00:02,173 --> 01:00:08,757
Where you sort of feel compelled to do things, but you know, they're only in the
customer's interests and not in yours.

666
01:00:08,757 --> 01:00:19,237
but you sort of describe that balanced relationship and understanding that they've got to
get a win and you as an organization, it has to make sense for you also, right?

667
01:00:19,237 --> 01:00:28,517
It's that better balance rather than just the selfish sort of what's in it for our
organization and us sort of doing the deal and running.

668
01:00:28,877 --> 01:00:30,967
What's in it for them, what's in it for us?

669
01:00:30,967 --> 01:00:36,973
And that, as you say, I think, you know, I'd agree is the sustainable approach to business
that...

670
01:00:37,045 --> 01:00:40,269
It doesn't seem as common as one would think it would.

671
01:00:40,718 --> 01:00:48,638
Yeah, and with that interest rate one, which was interesting, it was the very, very first
point they brought up, probably because they knew it was a big ask.

672
01:00:48,638 --> 01:00:58,818
But what the gentleman did was he put up an A4 piece of paper and he turned it sideways so
there was almost nothing visible at all.

673
01:00:58,818 --> 01:01:07,318
He said, that's the difference between you and who we've got in reserve to replace you if
we can't agree to these terms and conditions.

674
01:01:07,318 --> 01:01:09,518
So we've got somebody waiting in the wings.

675
01:01:09,518 --> 01:01:11,858
You better or better agree to this.

676
01:01:11,858 --> 01:01:23,738
That's quite a good negotiation ploy, but I explained to him that the reason I won't,
can't agree to something that I think is very poor business practice is not just for our

677
01:01:23,738 --> 01:01:24,478
benefit.

678
01:01:24,478 --> 01:01:32,398
I could agree to anything, but that doesn't mean that will then underpin high quality
service delivery for the next five years.

679
01:01:32,398 --> 01:01:38,382
And in fact, if I agree to something like that, and I continually do every time I go into
a discussion with a different.

680
01:01:38,382 --> 01:01:42,322
new client, we probably won't even be around in five years time.

681
01:01:42,322 --> 01:01:46,022
So I'm doing it as much for you as I am for us.

682
01:01:46,022 --> 01:01:58,092
You know, if we can all just think about what will make a contract successful in totality,
rather than thinking about you or me, then it's going to be good for both of us.

683
01:01:58,092 --> 01:02:02,990
I was just fortunate that not only did they have commercial skills,

684
01:02:02,990 --> 01:02:09,304
But they had sufficient emotional intelligence to actually understand that argument and
go, yeah, that makes sense to us.

685
01:02:09,333 --> 01:02:09,893
Yep.

686
01:02:09,893 --> 01:02:10,453
Yep.

687
01:02:10,453 --> 01:02:12,757
Yep.

688
01:02:12,757 --> 01:02:13,427
That's great.

689
01:02:13,427 --> 01:02:23,697
I mean, I've got a few more questions here that are sort of a little bit more about the
sort of world that we're living in right now with artificial intelligence and remote work

690
01:02:23,697 --> 01:02:24,747
and things like that.

691
01:02:24,747 --> 01:02:30,437
I mean, do you have any views on particularly, I think, with remote work these days?

692
01:02:30,437 --> 01:02:39,037
You know, it's a very different world that we're working in and so trying to build culture
and retain cultures in that environment.

693
01:02:39,037 --> 01:02:41,621
Is that something you've had much to...

694
01:02:41,621 --> 01:02:43,997
to do with or thought about much?

695
01:02:44,558 --> 01:02:45,918
Yeah.

696
01:02:46,318 --> 01:02:55,478
So look, in terms of in -office versus remote work, I'd probably sit on the fence a little
bit on that one.

697
01:02:55,478 --> 01:03:05,538
I know people are passionate about the quality of their life has been improved and their
families by being able to work from home.

698
01:03:05,538 --> 01:03:08,966
Some companies are nervous about people working from home because...

699
01:03:09,454 --> 01:03:11,514
and they're really being productive and so on.

700
01:03:11,514 --> 01:03:17,134
So the world's pretty polarised on that issue and I tend to like a hybrid model probably.

701
01:03:17,654 --> 01:03:26,354
I don't see the need for people to be in the office every single day, but particularly to
reinforce culture, I think it's good to come in.

702
01:03:27,554 --> 01:03:32,622
And I think most companies can structure a balance post...

703
01:03:32,622 --> 01:03:43,382
the global pandemic with the rules having changed and our eyes having been open to the
fact that you don't have to be sitting at your desk every single day.

704
01:03:44,122 --> 01:03:50,462
But you can build culture online as well.

705
01:03:50,462 --> 01:03:58,086
So even before COVID and working from home became a thing, I felt there was some merit in
that.

706
01:03:58,478 --> 01:04:07,538
And the kind of the thought I had at the time was probably one day a week or one day a
fortnight, but just have a little bit more balance in people's work lives.

707
01:04:07,538 --> 01:04:19,238
And I used to work from home and I'd do a photo of myself in my lounge room working away
and I posted on the internet and I'd say, hey, I'm working from home today.

708
01:04:19,238 --> 01:04:21,738
You might have noticed I'm not in the office.

709
01:04:21,778 --> 01:04:27,342
It's really productive for me and it's something I enjoy doing.

710
01:04:27,342 --> 01:04:30,442
and I'd encourage you to do the same.

711
01:04:30,442 --> 01:04:33,042
So I was modelling the behaviour.

712
01:04:33,402 --> 01:04:38,002
And so I've always been a believer in work -life balance.

713
01:04:38,002 --> 01:04:43,402
And I think a mix of working from home in the office is probably a pretty good way to go.

714
01:04:43,722 --> 01:04:49,222
Although, you know, every business is different and every role within every business is
different and so on.

715
01:04:49,222 --> 01:04:56,078
But if you can still be a leader and be having Zoom calls with

716
01:04:56,078 --> 01:05:04,738
people when they're at home or you're at home or whatever and connect with them and
continue to reinforce that culture and connectedness is important.

717
01:05:05,418 --> 01:05:09,518
Building culture and connectedness doesn't only happen in the office.

718
01:05:09,738 --> 01:05:12,885
It should be going on 24 hours a day kind of thing.

719
01:05:12,885 --> 01:05:15,815
Yeah, yeah, I think it's interesting, isn't it?

720
01:05:15,815 --> 01:05:24,185
I think our experience has been, we've been working remote for a long period of time, me
being based in the US for a long time before being back here in Australia.

721
01:05:24,285 --> 01:05:31,695
And I think that there is something different about being in person that you do miss from
having the online conversations, isn't it?

722
01:05:31,695 --> 01:05:40,835
There's a certain energy and a certain ability to bounce ideas off that just feels a
little bit more alive and so on.

723
01:05:40,835 --> 01:05:41,685
And so I think that...

724
01:05:41,685 --> 01:05:52,445
you know, certainly it looks as though the blend is going to be the best combination for
most organizations and many roles going forward, depending on again, what the work is that

725
01:05:52,445 --> 01:05:53,425
you're doing.

726
01:05:53,425 --> 01:05:53,706
Yeah.

727
01:05:53,706 --> 01:06:00,426
I think, you know, one discussion that comes up is about the incidental contact that
happens when you're in the office.

728
01:06:00,426 --> 01:06:12,206
So you're more likely to bump into people in completely different departments to yours
when you're in the office, you know, making your coffee or whatever it might be, than you

729
01:06:12,206 --> 01:06:13,902
are on a Zoom call.

730
01:06:13,902 --> 01:06:16,202
because the Zoom call's a bit more transactional.

731
01:06:16,202 --> 01:06:28,542
It's content relevant to your role, probably delivered by people in your department, and
it's kind of transactional, and it's content -based.

732
01:06:29,242 --> 01:06:39,642
And you're probably not gonna bump into somebody from Accounts Payable sitting in your
lounge room having a Zoom call about a product release with your product team.

733
01:06:39,642 --> 01:06:40,585
You know?

734
01:06:40,585 --> 01:06:41,685
no, no, that's right.

735
01:06:41,685 --> 01:06:45,805
So you can lose some of that serendipity and that, that creative, that's right.

736
01:06:45,805 --> 01:06:53,485
That just comes through conversation and ideas and bouncing things off people and seeing
how they respond and so on.

737
01:06:53,485 --> 01:06:54,542
So yeah, yeah.

738
01:06:54,542 --> 01:06:57,302
Yeah, but you mentioned AI as well, Chris.

739
01:06:57,302 --> 01:07:03,842
I mean, one of the big things yet to be determined is, is AI going to take a lot of jobs
away?

740
01:07:03,842 --> 01:07:08,342
And, you know, I don't think that we could really live without AI now.

741
01:07:08,342 --> 01:07:10,602
I mean, it's been with us for a very long while.

742
01:07:10,602 --> 01:07:15,042
A lot of people don't realize how AI has been a part of their life.

743
01:07:15,042 --> 01:07:20,334
I mean, you know, every time they turn on Netflix and the algorithm throws up a few
suggestions.

744
01:07:20,334 --> 01:07:22,894
You know, that's that's AI at work.

745
01:07:23,154 --> 01:07:36,174
One of the examples I like is a couple of years ago at the Australian Open tennis
championships, you know, one of the big four global tennis events, Grand Slams.

746
01:07:36,974 --> 01:07:48,686
I don't think I really picked up on it at the time, but one of the pieces of theatre at
those tennis events is when a player disputes a line call.

747
01:07:48,686 --> 01:07:58,326
and it's called out and they don't think it's out and they'll go and break the umpire or
you know whatever they even had a mechanism where they could ask for it to be reviewed on

748
01:07:58,326 --> 01:08:11,506
video and it's the Hawkeye system which I think HP developed and so there was a standard
part of watching any tennis match this stuff would go on from time to time and anyway as

749
01:08:11,506 --> 01:08:15,942
of a couple of years ago no line call was ever disputed.

750
01:08:16,046 --> 01:08:27,546
And it wasn't until I sort of read a passage about AI that it pointed out, well, the
reason it's never disputed is not that the players all now agree with the officials or

751
01:08:27,546 --> 01:08:33,286
they've calmed their tempers down or whatever, or there's no John McEnroe's playing
anymore.

752
01:08:33,286 --> 01:08:34,906
It had nothing to do with that.

753
01:08:34,906 --> 01:08:40,046
It's just that AI made the decision and it's indisputable.

754
01:08:40,466 --> 01:08:45,560
And the interesting thing was when the system would call out,

755
01:08:45,774 --> 01:08:55,221
then it would even make that pronouncement with an Australian accent at the Australian
Open.

756
01:08:55,221 --> 01:08:58,861
There's no disputing the machine.

757
01:09:00,341 --> 01:09:01,626
That's right.

758
01:09:01,626 --> 01:09:09,986
I think the challenge is AI is not a sentient being.

759
01:09:10,106 --> 01:09:12,366
AI is not a human being.

760
01:09:12,506 --> 01:09:14,386
It's a different form of intelligence.

761
01:09:14,386 --> 01:09:21,666
It's obviously the aggregation of a massive amount of data that humans have collected.

762
01:09:22,070 --> 01:09:29,710
and so I think the challenge with AI is to build in moral and ethical considerations into
AI.

763
01:09:29,750 --> 01:09:40,590
And, you know, one example I was given was, an elderly person rings the contact center at
their electricity provider and says, look, I've got a final notice.

764
01:09:40,590 --> 01:09:45,250
You're going to cut off my electricity, but I just wanted to explain the circumstances.

765
01:09:45,590 --> 01:09:48,450
my husband and I are very, very aged.

766
01:09:48,690 --> 01:09:50,350
there's been a delay with some.

767
01:09:50,350 --> 01:09:57,750
pension payment or something and we will be able to pay next week but we can't meet the
deadline.

768
01:09:57,750 --> 01:09:59,040
Please don't turn our power off.

769
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:06,090
It's the middle of winter and could have extreme medical circumstances for us if you do.

770
01:10:06,570 --> 01:10:16,330
And if it's an AI run contact center, the first thing that will happen is the database
will be immediately searched for that person's history.

771
01:10:16,350 --> 01:10:19,302
And the rule might be that you're allowed one

772
01:10:19,438 --> 01:10:31,618
exemption from paying on time per 12 month period and the system will respond and say
understand the situation but you drew down on that six months ago you can't draw down on

773
01:10:31,618 --> 01:10:39,038
it again you have to pay by that set date and because it's AI is a rules -based system.

774
01:10:39,054 --> 01:10:40,404
How do you build into AI?

775
01:10:40,404 --> 01:10:42,694
And it will come, it's probably happening now.

776
01:10:42,694 --> 01:10:54,814
How do you build in moral and ethical considerations about that particular situation needs
to be viewed outside the rules with greater, greater compassion, less the dire

777
01:10:54,814 --> 01:10:55,473
consequences.

778
01:10:55,473 --> 01:11:06,934
So that's the current challenge for AI, I think, to replicate not the rules, but the
deeper sense of compassion and understanding that human beings have of each other.

779
01:11:07,285 --> 01:11:12,885
It's really the challenge of giving AI a heart, right?

780
01:11:13,165 --> 01:11:24,985
Giving AI some compassion and caring, which I'm imagining is going to be a challenge, but
can be done, right?

781
01:11:24,985 --> 01:11:30,705
It's sort of the left brain AI in many ways, right?

782
01:11:30,705 --> 01:11:37,067
It's incredibly intelligent in terms of what it can produce for us now.

783
01:11:37,109 --> 01:11:46,539
But will it be able to marry that with compassion and heart and what's important to being
a human being and alive, right?

784
01:11:46,539 --> 01:11:49,139
So I think that's the big challenge, isn't it?

785
01:11:49,139 --> 01:11:50,549
That's great.

786
01:11:50,929 --> 01:11:58,409
And in talking about sort of what this podcast is called, it's called the Relentless
Customer Leader.

787
01:11:58,409 --> 01:12:06,741
When you think of the term sort of relentless, I think we've sort of, you've mentioned a
couple of areas, you know, of conviction.

788
01:12:06,741 --> 01:12:11,117
that you've had, but what does the term relentless mean to you?

789
01:12:12,110 --> 01:12:14,970
It means exactly what you just said, Chris.

790
01:12:14,970 --> 01:12:16,270
It means conviction.

791
01:12:16,270 --> 01:12:26,630
It means not compromising or wavering from what you know to be the correct treatment of
customers.

792
01:12:26,790 --> 01:12:34,290
So you could start out with a set of company values that you'll always be open and honest
with your customers or whatever.

793
01:12:34,990 --> 01:12:37,998
Maybe new competitors enter the market, maybe...

794
01:12:37,998 --> 01:12:48,538
bringing in products or services at cheaper prices, your margins start to fall, you're
getting squeezed on a number of levels, you're getting pressure from your head office or

795
01:12:48,538 --> 01:12:50,758
your boss overseas or whatever.

796
01:12:51,578 --> 01:12:56,878
And you might just start to get into a mindset of compromise.

797
01:12:56,978 --> 01:13:02,990
But once you start to compromise on things like how honestly...

798
01:13:02,990 --> 01:13:16,430
you treat your customers or how honestly you present yourself in marketing materials or
whatever on your website or in contracts, then you're on a slippery slope.

799
01:13:16,750 --> 01:13:23,130
And that slippery slope will lead you, well, it never ends well.

800
01:13:23,270 --> 01:13:24,870
Never ends well.

801
01:13:24,870 --> 01:13:32,484
And if you ignore your customer or don't treat them honestly, ultimately there will be
reputational damage.

802
01:13:32,654 --> 01:13:39,294
And probably even before that, you'll start to have good staff members leave your company.

803
01:13:39,954 --> 01:13:47,334
And so there is no point in succumbing to short term pressure when it comes to the
customer.

804
01:13:47,334 --> 01:13:48,874
It's just pointless.

805
01:13:48,874 --> 01:13:59,438
You just buy yourself a few months or whatever, I don't know, maybe a few years, but
ultimately you have to put the customer at the heart of your decision making.

806
01:13:59,438 --> 01:14:06,398
and you have to never compromise on the values that you know have to be applied to those
relationships.

807
01:14:06,398 --> 01:14:20,638
And not to do so, I would argue, would suggest that the person running that company is not
a leader and they are a reactionary follower to circumstances.

808
01:14:20,638 --> 01:14:26,382
And I think it's very important to remember that just because somebody is at the top of an
organisational chart,

809
01:14:26,382 --> 01:14:31,882
and occupies the most senior position with the most senior title, that doesn't make them a
leader.

810
01:14:32,062 --> 01:14:34,872
That just makes them sitting at the top of the organisational chart.

811
01:14:34,872 --> 01:14:36,822
They're two very, very different things.

812
01:14:36,822 --> 01:14:44,789
And true leaders will not compromise on things like morals and ethics.

813
01:14:44,789 --> 01:14:48,069
Yeah, no, that's, I mean, we've seen many examples of that, haven't we?

814
01:14:48,069 --> 01:14:51,789
And it does turn out badly when it goes wrong.

815
01:14:51,789 --> 01:14:56,329
So I agree with you.

816
01:14:56,329 --> 01:15:09,729
When you think about other leaders that are listening to this, you know, what would be one
thing that you might recommend to them to improve their own sort of leadership around

817
01:15:09,729 --> 01:15:13,629
customers and employees and engaging employees?

818
01:15:14,197 --> 01:15:15,885
Is there something that comes to mind?

819
01:15:16,718 --> 01:15:23,398
Well, the first thing that came to mind, Chris, is don't try and do it all on your own.

820
01:15:24,118 --> 01:15:32,338
To be a leader doesn't mean you have to exist in isolation in terms of making decisions or
what have you.

821
01:15:32,338 --> 01:15:40,654
I would say use the collective consciousness, the collective brain power of everybody in
your company and all your stakeholders.

822
01:15:40,654 --> 01:15:48,914
If you've got some important decisions to make, ask your people, ask your customers, ask
your family, ask your friends.

823
01:15:48,914 --> 01:15:53,814
I'm going to have to make this decision in a matter of weeks or whatever.

824
01:15:53,814 --> 01:15:59,754
I've got my own ideas, but I've been really interested in canvassing some other people's
ideas.

825
01:15:59,754 --> 01:16:03,664
Often what happens is it may not completely turn your thinking around.

826
01:16:03,664 --> 01:16:06,254
You might be on the right path anyway.

827
01:16:06,734 --> 01:16:09,646
But there can be some gold nuggets out there.

828
01:16:09,646 --> 01:16:13,666
and they can come from the most unlikely sources as well.

829
01:16:13,666 --> 01:16:16,606
Somebody says a different slant on things.

830
01:16:17,286 --> 01:16:33,226
So yeah, I would just say use all the collective brainpower available to you as a leader
and don't feel that it compromises your strength or how you're viewed to go to people and

831
01:16:33,226 --> 01:16:36,246
ask for their advice or their input.

832
01:16:36,302 --> 01:16:47,982
If anything, I would say what we've kind of learned these days is that is the hallmark of
a very strong leader to have the humility to be able to go to others and say, I'd be

833
01:16:47,982 --> 01:16:52,757
interested in your opinion before I make this decision.

834
01:16:52,757 --> 01:16:54,617
That's great advice, David.

835
01:16:54,897 --> 01:17:05,587
I think that this is a good time to switch gears into your upcoming book, because I'm sure
you're discussing a lot of this.

836
01:17:05,587 --> 01:17:11,177
I've got a sort of copy on the Kindle here of Kind Business.

837
01:17:12,697 --> 01:17:19,477
Values create value is the subheading there, which really stood out to me.

838
01:17:19,477 --> 01:17:21,117
I like that a lot.

839
01:17:21,237 --> 01:17:28,590
How do you describe what that phrase means, that values create value?

840
01:17:28,590 --> 01:17:31,470
Well, it's pretty much, I guess, what we've been talking about, Chris.

841
01:17:31,470 --> 01:17:47,310
I think if you create and then stick to your values, particularly around how people are
treated, then there's commercial value in doing that.

842
01:17:47,390 --> 01:17:50,650
So it feeds directly into your commercial results.

843
01:17:50,650 --> 01:17:54,522
Now, I'm not saying that the reason to treat people well.

844
01:17:55,278 --> 01:18:07,198
The reason to be honest with your customers and the reason to make a contribution to
society, perhaps particularly to vulnerable people in society, is because you've worked

845
01:18:07,198 --> 01:18:09,638
out there's a really good ROI on it.

846
01:18:10,498 --> 01:18:14,258
I don't think in a way that's the right reason to do it.

847
01:18:14,658 --> 01:18:20,462
But if you establish good values and embed them in your organization and...

848
01:18:20,462 --> 01:18:24,582
as a leader embed them in everybody's mindset in the organization.

849
01:18:24,582 --> 01:18:29,502
It's got to permeate everybody in the organization.

850
01:18:31,682 --> 01:18:35,402
Then there is considerable commercial value in doing that.

851
01:18:35,402 --> 01:18:36,212
There's a link.

852
01:18:36,212 --> 01:18:39,542
So it's not an either or situation.

853
01:18:40,442 --> 01:18:44,270
Do I become a company with heart?

854
01:18:44,270 --> 01:18:48,210
or do I become a company that performs commercially really well?

855
01:18:48,210 --> 01:18:54,090
It's ludicrous to think that those two things are divorced or you have to make a choice.

856
01:18:54,450 --> 01:18:59,990
By focusing on the values, the value will just simply come.

857
01:19:00,670 --> 01:19:04,270
That's my experience and that's what that book's all about.

858
01:19:04,270 --> 01:19:11,900
And the first part really is it's kind of the good, the bad, the beautiful and the ugly of
the corporate world, this book.

859
01:19:12,046 --> 01:19:17,866
And so the first part really it's called traditional business and it's about companies not
getting it right.

860
01:19:17,866 --> 01:19:28,545
And it's about lots of case studies of where companies took a short term mindset and
significantly destroyed shareholder value in doing so.

861
01:19:29,366 --> 01:19:40,280
And I slate that back to leadership because when we see companies do really bad things,
it's not that the company did it.

862
01:19:40,526 --> 01:19:45,846
It's that human beings who had decision -making power made that decision.

863
01:19:45,846 --> 01:19:52,146
I think it's always important because sometimes an individual can deflect it to, that was
the company, you know.

864
01:19:52,146 --> 01:19:54,066
Well, no, no, hold on.

865
01:19:54,586 --> 01:19:55,796
The buck stops with you.

866
01:19:55,796 --> 01:19:59,386
You're the chairman of the board or the buck stops with you, you're the CEO.

867
01:20:00,066 --> 01:20:10,190
Part two is about a new paradigm, the way we're seeing a lot of companies starting to
operate now, which is along the lines of what we've been talking about.

868
01:20:10,190 --> 01:20:12,150
with a much more caring mentality.

869
01:20:12,150 --> 01:20:19,990
And I talk about some of the great leaders that are doing that very well and some people
who I admire immensely.

870
01:20:20,270 --> 01:20:31,790
And then part three, which is a shorter section of the book, is a case study where I talk
about, well, the opening sentence is, the company that I'm most qualified to talk about is

871
01:20:31,790 --> 01:20:33,590
the company that I ran, Conica Minolta.

872
01:20:33,590 --> 01:20:38,310
And then I talk about some of our experiences there.

873
01:20:38,390 --> 01:20:39,726
And...

874
01:20:39,726 --> 01:20:51,806
You know, I've been invited to do a lot of public speaking since I left my full -time CEO
role and it just made sense to me that if I wrote a book I could probably reach more

875
01:20:51,806 --> 01:20:58,933
people than, you know, via speaking at conferences or, you know, in -house management
workshops or what have you.

876
01:20:58,933 --> 01:20:59,583
That's great.

877
01:20:59,583 --> 01:21:03,113
And so that book's going to become available soon, is it?

878
01:21:03,113 --> 01:21:07,767
Is it out now or soon to be announced officially?

879
01:21:07,822 --> 01:21:09,182
Yeah, yeah.

880
01:21:09,182 --> 01:21:18,542
So as we speak, Chris, I'm waiting on the final completely laid out proofed copy that will
go to the printer.

881
01:21:18,542 --> 01:21:25,922
It goes back to the author for one last look and you then accept responsibility for what's
in it.

882
01:21:25,962 --> 01:21:28,962
And yes, it'll be printed in the next couple of weeks.

883
01:21:28,962 --> 01:21:36,102
It'll go into Australian bookstores and as they say, available in all good bookstores.

884
01:21:36,102 --> 01:21:36,334
And

885
01:21:36,334 --> 01:21:39,954
and through online retailers or whatever.

886
01:21:39,954 --> 01:21:55,614
I have had a peep at a couple of online, well -known online retailers and I noticed it's
already sitting in there, kind business value as a pre -order to be filled on the 1st of

887
01:21:55,614 --> 01:21:56,054
July.

888
01:21:56,054 --> 01:21:58,634
So it's all about to happen.

889
01:21:58,933 --> 01:22:00,663
That's great news.

890
01:22:00,663 --> 01:22:01,713
That's great news.

891
01:22:01,713 --> 01:22:04,373
And where can people find you David online?

892
01:22:04,373 --> 01:22:07,593
I mean, you're on LinkedIn, I believe.

893
01:22:07,813 --> 01:22:12,589
Pretty prolific on there and there are other places that they can find you and track you
down.

894
01:22:12,686 --> 01:22:16,946
Yeah, yeah, yeah, on LinkedIn definitely.

895
01:22:17,246 --> 01:22:28,686
And I haven't announced the book on LinkedIn yet, but any day now I'll start to do a few
posts, to let people know it's out there and available.

896
01:22:29,106 --> 01:22:36,826
But the company that I set up when I left Conicum and Ultra a few years ago is ESG
Advisory.

897
01:22:36,826 --> 01:22:40,186
So that's just esgadvisory .com .au.

898
01:22:40,586 --> 01:22:41,570
And...

899
01:22:41,614 --> 01:22:53,654
And essentially, you know, what that firm does really is, can do some traditional
consulting in -house with organizations around these matters we've been talking about.

900
01:22:53,794 --> 01:23:04,674
Or commonly I get invited along to speak to boards or executive teams or I run a workshop
on ethical decision -making, for instance, which is a hypothetical.

901
01:23:05,486 --> 01:23:09,146
where I take people out of their day job and I say, you don't work in this company
anymore.

902
01:23:09,146 --> 01:23:14,426
I'm now moving you over into this environment and this decision has come across your desk.

903
01:23:14,646 --> 01:23:18,626
It might be that you're a politician or whatever it might be.

904
01:23:18,626 --> 01:23:21,566
And they're very, very interactive workshops.

905
01:23:21,986 --> 01:23:27,666
And in my experience, people absolutely love learning in that way, in a participatory kind
of way.

906
01:23:28,406 --> 01:23:32,518
So yeah, ESG advisory, that's how I spend my time these days.

907
01:23:32,757 --> 01:23:33,837
Fantastic, David.

908
01:23:33,837 --> 01:23:42,017
Well, it was a great pleasure to see you again and to talk through a lot of the great
experiences that you've had during your career.

909
01:23:42,017 --> 01:23:45,997
And we were fortunate to be involved in part of that.

910
01:23:45,997 --> 01:23:49,617
And you've been a great inspiration to us and the team here.

911
01:23:49,617 --> 01:23:53,161
So it's great to reconnect.

912
01:23:53,166 --> 01:23:54,366
Well, thank you, Chris.

913
01:23:54,366 --> 01:24:11,686
And let me just say also that it was very, very fortuitous that I met you and your dad,
Linden, and, you know, came in contact with market culture and really you were the start

914
01:24:11,686 --> 01:24:18,286
of my very early days of being a managing director that helped set our company on this
path.

915
01:24:18,286 --> 01:24:22,186
to focus on internal culture and to focus on customer.

916
01:24:22,346 --> 01:24:24,866
And I can't thank you enough.

917
01:24:25,269 --> 01:24:30,641
Fantastic mate, appreciate it.