[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan Hammond, we have a release this

[00:00:18] Dan: We do

[00:00:20] Pia: Ha ha!

[00:00:21] Dan: having fun. Um, this is really exciting, actually very interesting from a sort of product standpoint. I think if anyone's out there as a, as a product owner or, um, or anything else for that matter in this world, you know, trying to sort of take a product and evolve it in a way that makes sense. So I think our, the Squadify question set was about three years old. And obviously in that time, there's been new research, and we've learned a lot about teams, the needs of teams in that time. It's quite a chaotic time really for, for teams. So yes, we've been able to morph the product into something that, that reflects those changes. And, um, it's exciting in particular it's very strong on psychological safety, which is a topic that we've talked about on We not me a lot. So yeah, it's really exciting. Can't wait to get stuck into teams and talk about that sort of foundation of, uh, of high performance.

[00:01:11] Pia: And I completed our Squadify because we drink our own champagne, uh, which is much nicer than eating our own dog food. Um, and, um, I love some of the new questions actually, because they really stood out and they went, Oh, that's quite exciting. That's, you know, so lots of questions the same, um, a couple of new ones and some that are just being tweaked.

[00:01:33] Pia: And it does relate actually to our guests that we have today, Sahera Sumar. One of the questions is around diversity and inclusion, specifically around how team members feel included. You know, as we talked about on the show, Sahera and I spent a long time as we did with you traveling into East Africa and delivering leadership programs there. But Sahera has taken this inclusion to a whole new level by the work that she is doing in West Africa, where geographies, cultures, and tribes play very different parts in the whole thing. So I think it'd be just going to be great conversation to go and hear from her and get her, get her insights about how to harness that towards a unifying goal. 

[00:02:24] Pia: A very big welcome back, Sahera Lovely to have you back in the We Not Me podcast. 

[00:02:33] Sahera: Thank you, Pia. I'm really excited to be here again and share more of my adventures.

[00:02:37] Pia: Oh, it is, yes, the Sahera Adventures. There are, and there are even more. I think for, for the, for the next series, the more episodes, there are more exciting things that you're doing. And today we really want to hear around a lot of the work that you're doing in West Africa and, and some of the complexities of, of teamwork in that particular geography and what that, what that poses. But now that you're back, you're back in the traps of Dan Hammond, facing the inevitable question. You'd never get away scot free on 

[00:03:14] Dan: You get another card like you did last time. Card I've selected for you, uh, by chance is a green card. The job I would be terrible at is. I like this 

[00:03:26] Sahera: I would absolutely be terrible at accounting and, uh, drafting policies and all that kind of boring, shmoring stuff, I have to say.

[00:03:38] Pia: Some people love that. They 

[00:03:40] Sahera: I know, I know. And there's good people that do it really well and it's not me. And I admire, I really absolutely admire those that do.

[00:03:49] Pia: Yeah. So do I. So do I. That, that detail. Um, is that because it's just, it is the detail element of it?

[00:03:55] Sahera: Yeah, I think I'm much more big picture, uh, you know, and I, I find it really hard to just focus very, uh, narrow on detail for long. I can do it for a short period, but, uh, yes, details escape me quite often. 

[00:04:12] Pia: Well, don't worry. And then, and then I always find that it's good. If that's the case, just find somebody that is good at detail and then to, to support you 

[00:04:21] Dan: Play to their strengths. 

[00:04:22] Pia: big, the big picture thinking that's.

[00:04:25] Sahera: And hence the teamwork, right? You can't be good at everything.

[00:04:28] Pia: No, 

[00:04:29] Dan: So, Sahera, just, uh, you've been on the show before, but, uh, just remind our listeners where you're, where you came from and what, what, what journey brought you to this place?

[00:04:39] Sahera: All right. So, uh, I guess I've been in, I'm currently working in the leadership space, leadership consultant, working very much on inclusive leadership, uh, and building inclusive cultures. But my background, actually I've career transitioned a lot, so I think Pia can relate to that as well. But I came from a science background and then moved into corporates and then started working very much in, um, corporate, uh, HR and learning and development, building and leading programs and then, uh, worked very much in the consulting space. Uh, and I guess became really passionate about understanding and unpacking leadership. And when I did that in the corporate space, it was at one level, but when I started working in the non for profit and the emerging economy space, then leadership took a whole nother meaning. And for me, that's where I found my sweet spot. And I just love. working in Central Asia, in, in, in Africa, in various parts, really exploring what leadership means to different people.

[00:05:43] Pia: So, Sahera, you and I have some, some common history. We spent many a year traveling across to Tanzania when we were together, uh, for the government and for, and in developing. And in running those programs, we certainly, we started to, to learn a lot about the complexity of humans and, um, and actually also that just the, the, the huge impact of working inside, um, a developing nation and, um, and the impact that you could have. It was, uh, it really set us off in different directions.

[00:06:23] Sahera: Yes, absolutely. And that really unlocked it for me, I have to say, Pia. So you were very, very much there at the forefront. Um, but for me, I think leadership when it was in the corporate space, it was very much about performance and results. But when it's in the developing world, it's about impact and impacting lives, impacting communities. And I just felt and I still feel, uh, it's, it's. So much more powerful, both when you do it well and when you don't do it well, um, you know, it, it, the impact is greater and I, that's why I really enjoy that challenge. And some of the things we grapple with here in corporate is simple over there and yet other things, uh, that, you know, that they grapple with. So yes, it's just a very interesting dynamic.

[00:07:08] Dan: So take us into your world, Sahera, what do you sort of do?

[00:07:11] Sahera: So this particular piece of work, I'm working with a steel company that's located in 10 different countries within Africa. People say Africa, but there's 54 countries, just to get that clear out there. So they're located in 10 different countries, um, and, uh, they're actually nation building because steel is a huge thing. There's a lot of construction going on now in, in various countries. Um, so as an org, as a company, they're doing extremely well, um, as a manufacturer, but I guess where the challenge arises in these sorts of organizations is I've been called to come in and really look at, uh, their diversity and inclusion and how we can strengthen the, the organizational culture with regards to inclusion and strengthen the leadership capacity. 

[00:07:58] Pia: And give us a little bit of a background about who owns the, like, how's the structure of the business? How does it work in 10 countries? How does it operate? Is it mainly manufacturing or, you know, sales arms? What's the functions?

[00:08:14] Sahera: So it's, it's steel manufacturing, uh, and it's owned, family owned. Uh, two families have come together, and I, you know, just to be really, uh, uh, clear, they're two, uh, families from very distinct geographies and cultural backgrounds. Uh, so one's an Indian family, the other's a Lebanese family. Uh, they come together and they have very different work styles, work ethics in the first place.

[00:08:40] Sahera: Um, so governance has been an interesting part in itself. But the, the thing they have in common, I guess, is they're both very ambitious families and, and have a lot of expertise and, and they're very, driven. So, uh, it's great to see them. They've literally grown into 10 countries in a very short space of time. And so the opportunities are there. And whilst the, uh, you know, there's opportunity for growth and expansion in the manufacturing space, the challenge is for me to make sure the organization doesn't implode.

[00:09:13] Sahera: Because what's happening internally is we've got, um, a huge expat community that's brought out to manage the factories, manage the quality control, um, do a lot of those specialized functions. Uh, but then you've got a lot of the local, which we call nationals, who are the worker bees, if you like. But even within that group, there's a lot of diversity of tribal cultures, those that are educated versus those that are not educated.

[00:09:42] Sahera: So yeah, so when you're looking at any one factory of about five to six hundred people, the diversity there is enormous. Layer on top of that, if you're in parts of West Africa that's French speaking, you've got that level of complexity where People have had more of a French style education, French upbringing. Then there's ghana, which is English speaking. And then, uh, this year, this time I went to Angola, which is Portuguese. Um, and so, yeah, it's just, it's just so fascinating. I just love, uh, you know, immersing myself in all of this culture and trying to make it work.

[00:10:18] Dan: wonderful. It's right up your street. Isn't it Sahera? Right up your street. so This really is diversity writ large, isn't it? What impact does that, has that had? What sort of problem are you going to solve?

[00:10:30] Sahera: Yeah, so the challenge is not just the, the, uh, geographical diversity and of course the cultural diversity. We've got diversity of different education, different expectations. So the Indian culture, as you know, is very caste driven, so you've got that dynamic going on at the same time, you've got tribal things going on, it's, it's so, you know, it's complexity of every nature, if you like, all coming together and trying to be productive.

[00:10:56] Dan: So give us an example of how this plays out. Um, what, what, what problems, uh, emerge from this? I can sort of imagine a few, I guess, but

[00:11:04] Sahera: Yeah, language has to be the first. Because as you, as you bring expats to operate the machinery, firstly they cannot communicate to the locals and, and the nationals who are working the machines. So there's a lot of gesturing and body language, which is not always polite. And that in itself is so nuanced. Because you've got culturally, you know, what's acceptable. We know, even in the Western culture, what's culturally acceptable in terms of gesture, body language, tone, may not be acceptable in other cultures. So you've got a real disparity just there. People are really not able to communicate well. 

[00:11:43] Sahera: And then you've got management. They're trying to communicate to, to the rest of the staff. So, I think communication probably is the number one big challenge. And the impact of that is everyone's, uh, working on their own. We're not united. There isn't a common culture. At least it doesn't feel like it, it's coming together in that way. So, Huge challenge. A lot of diversity, not enough inclusion.

[00:12:06] Dan: Yeah.

[00:12:08] Pia: I was gonna ask like how do you start to build some common ground when you've got that level of difference between people in terms of the way they've been educated, the language they speak, even where they're from. But I'm assuming that these two families want everybody to feel like they are part of one organization. I'm sure that's high on their agenda, but not easy to do.

[00:12:30] Sahera: Yes, absolutely. So definitely there's a, there's a real drive. I mean, I've been going, I've been working with them for five years now. So there's a real drive and a recognition that work needs to be done. And I really applaud them for that because that's, that's huge. But where we're starting, where we started off in common ground is firstly creating a common set of values for the organization. So irrespective of which country, irrespective of what culture, There's a common set of values that the organization believes we need to have. And we spent almost 12 months working that, workshopping that, making sure it fit, and we ran it through the various levels of, of, of, of people, uh, the different countries. So we road tested it. So anyhow, 12 months later, we've got a really solid set of values. And now we're really using that to build common behavior, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable around those common values.

[00:13:28] Dan: And are you tying those down? So you're working now on, are you being very specific about that behavioral code? Is that, is that the plan now to really tie that down so that everyone's

[00:13:40] Sahera: Yeah, so, so what we did was once we socialized it and we finalized it, uh, we then started to cascade it to, uh, the more senior members of staff to, to get them to understand what it means, right? To have common values and how to live those values. We did a lot of workshopping, but really for me, what the crunch was, um, was during COVID. We'd only just really finalized, uh, the values after 12 months of work in a conference in Dubai and then COVID hit. So we, we were delayed in rolling it out because essentially we were supposed to run workshops in all the units.

[00:14:15] Sahera: Long story short, we ended up doing an assessment. Um, a culture assessment that was as much aligned to those values as we could, so, uh, we could then see where the gaps truly were within those espoused values. So this is the desired place we want to be. What's the current, uh, reality? And my goodness, the gap was glaring, uh, but even doing a survey in that level of complexity with language and all the rest is, it was a challenge in itself. But having said that, we, we, I think we did a fairly good job of that and we identified some real gaps. So once COVID, once we were over that, we were, we are now able to be very focused on where the gaps are, what the specific language, you know, how do we nuance. our approach and our training and our, um, uh, you know, work. 

[00:15:04] Pia: And what are you, finding in those gaps? What, what do you find that can really gel such a diverse uh, set of employees? Because I'm sure there's people listening now thinking I may not be working in West Africa, but I've got this problem. I've got, I've got the same, same issues. So, so what did you find that, that you could start to

[00:15:24] Sahera: Yeah. So firstly, we found that, you know, people didn't feel aligned to the values at all. So yes, you can say that these are the company values, but they don't belong to us. So that was very clear that came out in the assessment. Uh, a definite lack of respect for people in their roles, in their position. Lack of empowerment. People were not given any autonomy. So the fallout of all of this is you might have, uh, you know, educated and well qualified staff at one level, but they're not being empowered to do what they're, you know, hired to do. They don't know how to manage the teams under them.

[00:15:56] Sahera: So, lack of teamwork in that sense, lack of really understanding roles, responsibilities. It came down to a lot of, I guess, informal structures. So, we had to formalize. A lot of structures as well, reporting lines, KPIs, things that you think, Okay, it's not related so much to culture, but for me, the whole thing really came together. We needed systems, we needed structures, we needed language, we needed all those elements of, of culture that, that bring teams together to give them a solid base on which to work.

[00:16:31] Pia: And as you're doing this, what, what's your observation around the teams themselves? What are you seeing about teamwork and the diversity of teamwork, given the diversity of the, they're not the employees across 10 countries?

[00:16:45] Sahera: I guess for me the teamwork has really first started with educating the general managers on how to manage diverse teams. How to recognize, uh, that there's a place for everyone, irrespective of their culture or their language or their level of education. If you want them as an employee, you've got to make space. So we've done a lot of work on psychological safety, uh, recognizing, um, inclusion and diversity, and, and I guess somewhat we've done some work on, on bias. But really giving them the tools that they need to, uh, to help the team come together on a, on a common platform.

[00:17:20] Sahera: And that in itself has been interesting because. Just even heads of departments are not uniform, you know, we've got a lot of diversity, and for them to value, I mean, diversity is a great thing, you can just, you know, it can really add value, but you've got to make it work. Just throwing people together because they're different doesn't, definitely doesn't mean it's just going to work.

[00:17:41] Dan: and did you get any pushback on that? So here, did you get people, you know, actually people, you. know, basically I want to stick with my way of doing things and it's just still slows things down, whatever, anything. Did you get any, any pushback?

[00:17:55] Sahera: Yeah. So interesting. We've not had a lot of pushback, but we've had some people slower on the uptake who I think are just watching, watching and waiting and saying, okay, I'm not totally convinced, but then, uh, what's the alternate, uh, alternative? And when you look at the alternative, they've, you know, they've had to put up with some terrible, uh, attrition rates. People have had, we've had unfortunately some very bad accidents because there's just no focus on safety. You know, the communication is such, it is a manufacturing plant. If you're not going to communicate well and, and have some kind of, uh, order and structure around who's allowed to do what, then, you know, we're putting people in, in danger. So there has been a fallout. And I think that has also. to, to help people realize that if we don't, if we don't get on board, there is a bigger impact here. 

[00:18:47] Dan: And how do you see it going now? What's, what's the, what's the, you know, yeah. Where I be, where would you say you are now? Where have you reached and what, what are your, what are your next steps? What does that journey ahead look like for the, for the company?

[00:19:01] Sahera: You know, I, I'm really proud of where we've come because it's been top down and that's all right for the start. It's hard to work bottom up. In the past, I would have preferred to also work bottom up because we've got severe language constraints at the lower levels of staff, they're really the worker bees and it is much harder to, to get them, uh, even attending a workshop, you know. So we've got logistical constraints.

[00:19:25] Sahera: But we've really made great traction because what we've been doing is working firstly at the top and then working layer by layer. My most recent visit, we had all of the heads of HR together for the first time. And that was significant because again, we've not really had the right caliber of HR, so we've had to do a major restructure, recruitment, get the right people on the bus. And now we've got the right people on the bus, we've, we're empowering them. So we're able to now get them across the values, helping them to understand what they need to do. So it's been, it's, it's been, um, layer by layer, very deliberately, building teamwork.

[00:20:04] Sahera: Now, you know, what really excites me is we don't only have teamwork within the unit. We now have teamwork across all 10 units. So. We've got all the general managers cooperating, collaborating, talking. We've created centers of excellence. So heads of production all meet once a quarter. Heads of um, quality meet once a month, once a quarter. Heads of HR. So we're not only building strength down each unit, we're going across, and it's happening simultaneously and it's all being built around the values. So it's. It's super exciting.

[00:20:38] Pia: It's a big investment and it, and it requires a big endorsement. So the very senior leadership must be really paving the way. And again, you've got two families. This must be uniting that they are both equally invested in this. And that's not always the case, is it?

[00:20:57] Sahera: You're right. One is much more invested than the other, I have to say. Only because, uh, they, they truly can see the value and the other family is probably just used to working in a different style. So, but I think it's, it's, it's bringing them along the journey as well, because they weren't always convinced at the start. Um, but as we've started to see change and improvement, it's been, uh, you know, a whole journey of educating everyone along the way as to not, why do we need to do this? What's the value in it? Because ultimately everyone says we're just manufacturing steel, but no, we're actually building communities. The quality of the steel becomes important and then the organization now actually wants to export the steel. So, you know, they've got to be internationally recognized. You've got to have all that infrastructure in place, so. 

[00:21:43] Pia: And has that, has that uniting purpose transcended the differences amongst people? we see that quite a lot, don't we? 

[00:21:52] Sahera: Yeah, really. You know, we know it and we read about it. For me, this has been absolutely real, because the game changer was having a clear mission, vision and value. And everyone's buying into the vision now. Everyone knows how they're contributing to that bigger vision. And it's a super exciting one. And so is the mission and, uh, the values as well. As I said, we've done a lot of work to really unpack those values and build the teams around understanding what those, those values are. So it's become a very central point that that's united people around that.

[00:22:27] Dan: My reflection on doing some of this work, not, I must say, at this black belt level, Sahara, but is, um, um, but is, you know, one of the challenges I've seen is that, you know, we've talked about a bit on the, on the, on the show, in fact, is when you get to a certain level of, of, of management, it's one of the privileges almost is not bothering about all this stuff. It's actually being in charge and telling people what to do. And so quite often these things get stuck at the top because those, those are the people who think that very often one of the, yeah, one of the benefits of being of that rank is not to, it's just to not to even engage with this stuff. Did you hit that? Do you hit those sorts of barriers?

[00:23:09] Sahera: Yeah, sort of. I, I did. Uh, I think for me, uh, for me, what, what was, uh, something that was very pivotal to the group is that they could see the opportunity for growth and expansion very early. And they also knew that the more operational they were as leaders, the less likely they were going to be able to scale and expand and, and, and grow. So. You know, it was a burning platform. They had to recognize that they had to let go. And in order to let go of the operations, they had to empower the next level.

[00:23:39] Sahera: So from a leadership lens, it became very interesting because you have to engage your leaders so that you can let go so that you can be more strategic and build your relationships with the government and with all the other people you need to do. They couldn't do both. And so I think that became very much the burning platform, which meant they had to jump on as well. Um, plus they lost some very good people along the way. So I think that was quite telling.

[00:24:05] Pia: So what, you know, based on this experience and that you've both been inside organizations and you've been consulting to organizations, what's this experience teaching you about, you know, and, and I guess sort of general lessons that we can pull out of it and apply to building high performance teams, building high performance culture? 

[00:24:28] Sahera: So, um, you know, definitely that one needs to be patient. You cannot boil the ocean in one go, but one needs to be consistent. I, I think it really, for me, came down to that very human level and I really like that, you know, the fact that you talk very much about that human connection. That was the one thing we know we all had in common despite where we came from and what we did.

[00:24:51] Sahera: And I, I created what I call this 5A model, which is, um, acknowledge. We need to acknowledge we're different, we need to acknowledge that some have privilege and some don't. If we don't acknowledge it and we just pretend it's not there, that's just not helpful. So the first A is acknowledge.

[00:25:08] Sahera: The second A is build awareness and understanding of these differences. Let's really understand what it means to point in one person's language, what it means to shout in another person's language. You know, we cannot communicate this way, so let's expand our awareness.

[00:25:24] Sahera: And then the other A is around acceptance. You may not agree, you may not like, you you don't have to be best friends, uh, you don't have to all like each other, but you do have to accept that we are here together working, uh, on a common platform. So that acceptance became important.

[00:25:43] Sahera: And then the fourth a, is appreciation. And the, to me, that's really been the game changer. Once you appreciate the difference. And appreciate what everyone brings to the table. The last one is A, add value. It absolutely adds value. And now we've seen in particularly one of the older units that's, that was the, the, the one that started first has, you know, been around longest and is really now, uh, starting to take on the change.

[00:26:10] Sahera: Uh, I was there this time and wow, the change is incredibly amazing because everyone's adding value. They're feeling empowered, no matter their role. So we've not got equality, we've got equity. Such a difference. And we've got inclusion. Everyone feels included. They have a place. They know they can grow. There's opportunities to take on new tasks, new learning. And, uh, you know, we're still overcoming the language issues, but I think there's a lot of other things now that's starting to create its own momentum.

[00:26:42] Dan: Sahera, the equality versus equity thing is, is really powerful. Could just dive into that a little bit just for our listener in case they haven't heard, seen that before. That, that's, uh, that that's fundamental here, isn't it?

[00:26:54] Sahera: Again, it was learning through experiential, um, the difference because, you know, we have all the expats with their expat packages and we've got privilege. They're given housing and they're given all sorts of things. So, you know, the question was, how do we treat all our people equally? We can't give that to everybody who works for us. We can only do that for our expats. So suddenly the expats had privileges that that the others felt they didn't have, and that created such a disparity.

[00:27:22] Sahera: So it was really about equity, not equality. So equity meaning you don't have exactly the same things, but you have the same opportunities to grow, to develop, to belong to this organization, to do your best at your level, with your opportunities. And as long as the the managers are now understanding that difference, and, and, you know, empowerment happens at all the different levels, then we can start to see that the, the, the equity is actually making quite a difference.

[00:27:52] Sahera: And we've stopped focusing on equality, but we've been focusing very much more on, on equity, creating safe space for everyone, sense of belonging for everyone, creating connection. We've started what I call the respect campaign. Very basic. How do we start to respect one another? You know, it doesn't matter where you're from, what you speak, what you do, what you eat, how you pray, how you dance, what you sing, it's all good. Let's just respect it. And just using that language has really also changed a lot. We're just wanting to respect each other. 

[00:28:25] Pia: They sound like some key elements and lessons that I think a lot of part of the world could be using right now. And that respect, you know, that, that applies at home as well as that applies in any other country. So it's all of us. And I really liked that appreciation. Because I think we actually, we look to criticize more quickly than we do appreciate.

[00:28:46] Sahera: Yes, and that's what we found, and that's what we had to really turn around. It's very easy to, to give into your biases. When we're confronted with diversity, our first reaction is quite emotional and it's quite negative. We don't like people who are different to ourselves. We don't understand it, therefore we don't want to know about it. So we had to break down that barrier. We really had to say, no, we can respect you, just because you're different, it doesn't matter, but we will get to know you and we will now learn to appreciate you, and then you can add value.

[00:29:16] Sahera: And I feel this is very much the conversation we're having here with the Indigenous uh, story, you know, people cannot add value until they're appreciated and we've created a safe space for acceptance.

[00:29:27] Pia: And so, what's next, Sahera? What's the next adventure? You're back out again?

[00:29:33] Sahera: Yes, end of the year. I have to keep my finger on that pulse because being so far away, I do get worried about what's going on. but, uh, yes, I think, uh, we, we just continue this journey. We're on a very good, I feel, a very good trajectory. We just need to keep the pressure on. We need to keep focusing on building organizational DNA, as I keep saying to the team. Running the Respect campaign, and, and just now starting to strengthen each of the units. And the good thing is as we, we are more experienced as a whole team, we're recruiting better. We're recruiting the right way. So all those things are starting to, to help shift, turn the Titanic as they say. Um,

[00:30:14] Pia: Yeah, well, I mean, it's really interesting to have this conversation because it breaks it down. Because you often hear the case study and it's in a couple of pages, but I think what you've done is actually really broken it down a more granular level. And it is life changing. It's life changing for the people in that organization, and I would imagine it's, it's quite life changing for you as well, because to witness it and be, be part of it.

[00:30:38] Pia: It's also life changing when you can see the human potential really come to bear, the fullness of, of everything it can be rather than limited by environment or, you know, external factors.

[00:30:51] Sahera: Yeah, look, it's been hugely rewarding. It, it has been a real journey and a lot of hard work, had to really roll up the sleeves. And I, I guess for me, it was about not being too daunted. It looked so complex. And, you know, thinking where do we start? But as we started to roll one or two things out, things like, particularly, like I said, the mission, vision and values, I could now see a common path forward, and it gave, gave me the confidence to know where to take it. 

[00:31:22] Dan: Yeah, it's great. And I love what you've done here. Very often, I think people approach these problems by giving everyone cultural training and trying to sort of say, Oh, well, to understand an Indian, because this is what they're like, and then I've got to work with the Lebanese people like, and then you end up in a real spider, sort of cobweb of Of connections, whereas you've actually boiled it down to it we're humans, we're all different, so let's really use those five A's. I think that's so powerful. I think our listener will take a lot away from that, um, to, to really think about how they can apply this. And probably in many teams are less, uh, less complex environment, one way, but one way inclusion is, is just going to transform their results. So, um, I think you've given our listener a great deal today.

[00:32:06] Dan: So thank you for checking out our West West Africa correspondent, um, dropping into the studio. Um, and, uh, so thank you, Sahera And, uh, we hope you'll get you, have you back on the show to talk about some of your other endeavors. Uh, maybe you could give us a quick update on this at the same time. That'd be wonderful.

[00:32:24] Sahera: No, that's my pleasure, and I think those five A's you can take into any team. 

[00:32:32] Dan: On reflection, I really loved the fact that she had, didn't go into this with an attempt to, you know, deal with this through cultural awareness. You know, okay, we've got all these different types, we're going to learn about each other. So, you know, you're from Senegal, this person's from Senegal, so these are the things you know about them. They're from Nigeria, they're Igbo, and you need to look. Actually, it's just too complicated. And it reflects real life that the reality is there's more difference. Within those groups and between, you know, that's what the science says, but you're far better rather than having a memory of, of things that people are supposed to be like in certain cultures or ranks or tribes or whatever, to actually just say, I'm working with humans here, and we are generally all different and I need skills to understand those people. 

[00:33:16] Dan: We had a colleague, Charlie, he used to say, rather than a thousand rules, have one behavior. And I thought it's Sahera's approach really encapsulated that. 

[00:33:24] Pia: I really liked her five A's model around inclusion. You know, just, um, you know, the last two bits, the appreciation and adding value. You know, once you've acknowledged somebody and appreciating the difference or the similarities or what they bring and then how that adds value. I, I thought that was a cracker of a bottle actually.

[00:33:48] Pia: The, the other part of it, I thought was it's a, it's a longer game. You know, she's been working with this client for five years, so it's not a fast thing either. But by having that buy in at the, at the top, that's, that's really helped to keep it steady and help to keep it focused and really make a big impact across 10 countries and a lot of diversity.

[00:34:13] Dan: Yeah. And starting with values and, and the sort of expected behaviors is a great way to build a sort of, you know, a common language, isn't it? Across whatever, whatever you're doing. And that seemed a really logical place to start. But as you say, it's something that probably can't be done quickly, but Sahera seems to have really, um, with the help of the, the leadership team there has really sort of steered this into a, into a good place over that time. It's, it's an impressive story.

[00:34:39] Dan: And I think, even though it seems like an extreme example, actually it teaches us the simple principles of building diversity and then including, crucially, including others, you know, I think in a way I felt taking it to that extreme sort of says, okay, that's how that's, that's, that's why we have diversity and actually that's how we can do it. So weirdly from the complexity emerges these simple fundamental forces they sent to, to avoid complex solutions and come up with these sort of simple principles. So yeah, I thought it was very powerful indeed.

[00:35:12] Pia: I think, um, there may be people who are listening, who are in cross functional teams, and this would be a really good insight for exactly that. So I think you're right. It was taken to an extreme, but I think the lessons of it are, equally applicable to cross functional, uh, multi stakeholder teams.

[00:35:31] Dan: Yeah, and basically teams with humans in them, we'll find this useful, but that is it for this episode, you can find show notes and resources at squadify.net, just click on the, we not we podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Stedman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:35:57] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.