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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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I've got Emma Hutchinson and
Jay Hare from Horseback UK based

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up in the wilds of Aberdeen.

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They kind of do everything started with
the military, still working with the

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military, but then transitioned also
into kids at risk youth all sorts of

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programs and populations over the years.

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And I would say that in terms of
mentorship for people that are looking,

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particularly within the UK to get
involved in the equine assisted field,

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horseback UK are really people to look
to because unlike many programs who

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target very much one population set
or one type of therapeutic outcome,

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horseback UK are unusually eclectic.

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And yet they integrate the whole
thing in a really interesting way.

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And of course they do this from a
rather wonderful fairytale location up

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there in Fairytale Land, which is Aber.

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Extremely beautiful.

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So, can you guys introduce yourselves?

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Tell us a little bit about
who you are and what you do.

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Do you wanna kick off Jay?

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Jay Hare: My name's Jay Ha.

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Jason calls me Jay.

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I'm the course director for Horseback uk.

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Next month I'll have been at the charity
for 15 years after being seconded here

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by the Marine Commandos, back when I went
through my rehabilitation and was healing

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after injuries sustained in combat.

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Rupert Isaacson: And what do you do now?

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You say you are the, you are, you are
directing, but what does that mean?

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Jay Hare: So, yeah, it's kind of a pop
title, really is it course director.

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But I think what it entails is actually
helping and to design the programs and

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the qualifications that we deliver here
as well as in part delivering them and

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also working with our mentors so that
we give a good product, a good program,

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a good outcome to whether it be our
youngsters, our military, our community

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courses, or whoever it might be.

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Some just kind of tweaking that constantly
and making sure it's all running well.

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Like any good business, charity
organization, it should look

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like a swan skimming across
the top of that lock or lake.

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But underneath there's always legs
kicking, so we're making sure that each

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one's working the way it should be.

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Cool.

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All right, Emma, tell us about you.

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Emma Hutchison: So I'm Emma Hut.

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The charity.

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Charity.

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So I I run the equine side of it, but
I also do the strategic and the, the

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sort of the fundraising and the, the
desk is just piled high with paperwork,

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with all sorts of stuff that you have
to have done to, to run a charity.

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But fundamentally, as I say, my
passion has always been the horses.

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And I am still fascinated.

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We just started running the,
the programs again this year.

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We have a couple of months where
we kind of try to get on top of

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all the paperwork and everything.

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And the last few weeks we've
gone back to running the courses.

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The horses have had a few months off,
and they just amazed me about how it took

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them a couple of days to get back into
it, but how they just slot back into it.

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They know their jobs and they're just
funny old things that, you know, some

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of them, like some people and some of
them don't like other people, and they

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know what they want and they know how
to do their jobs, and it's just, just

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me that they're, they're just amazing.

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Rupert Isaacson: All right.

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So Jay I want to start with you.

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I remember when I was visiting you guys
and we were doing various exercises

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together in the arena, it took me a while
to realize that you had a prosthetic

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leg, you were moving on it so naturally.

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So, athletically.

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And then at a certain point
I say, oh, hold on a second.

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He's, he's on a prosthetic leg in a sand
arena, kind of jumping over poles and.

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Blocks and things.

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Emma Hutchison: Is that
when he took it off?

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Rupert Isaacson: I think
he did take it off that.

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So no, I think he took it off so he
could beat me over the head with it.

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But the injuries that you sustained
you, you were a marine commando.

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Tell us about the, your life prior to
that, your life during the process of

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being injured, if you like, your recovery.

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How did horses come into this?

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Why and why did it make you feel
that you wanted to do this as a

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calling, as a, as a vocation really.

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Jay Hare: So yeah.

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Okay.

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Very quickly, I suppose.

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I was born in, born in Greece.

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We came over to Wales and
I was brought up there.

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I spent a lot of time in North
Wales and there has always been a

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horsemanship connection in my family.

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Normally with my grandfathers.

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So I agree with some people.

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They say sometimes it
can skip a generation.

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So maybe it hit me.

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I had an interest, whether I was
trying to, you know, pat one in a

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field or something, or, or asking
can I ride one, can I ride one?

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So I did at an early age, go for very
basic riding lessons and going on to, you

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know, trek centers and things like that.

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And then I forgot about it, completely
went to college, studied engineering.

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Always wanted to join the
senior service, the Royal Navy.

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And one day I went to a careers
fair and met this six foot four

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big bloke with a Green Beret.

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And I said, who are you guys?

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And I said, well, we're part of the
Royal Navy, but with a, with the

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elite soldiers of the Royal Navy,
with the Royal Marines commandos.

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So I dug a little further, you
know, asked some questions and I

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thought, yeah, that's, that's me.

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I'm out playing rugby.

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I'm getting dragged
down by the gamekeeper.

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I'm probably in a bit too much
trouble at that early tentative age.

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And I thought, yeah, as soon as
I finish and I'm, I'm gonna go

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off and join the Royal Marines.

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And I did, at 19 years of age, I joined
at the 11th of September, 2000, passed

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out an original, there's a high attrition
rate in what's called the highest and

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hardest basically basic infant in the.

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So about 40 of us started 11 of
us, seven to 11 of us trying to

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remember the numbers passed out.

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Original.

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That's without injury, that's without
being back to or sent back at class.

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And I headed up to Scotland to
four five Commander conducting

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some, you know, guard duties.

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And basically went back from
guard, gee, one evening to see

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planes flying into buildings.

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I said to the guys in the room, I
said, what, what film we watching?

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They said, no, Jay, this
happening real time.

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This is a terrorist attack.

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And from there, that changed the
whole landscape of, of combat for us.

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We were the original troops asked
to go out to head into the hills.

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That's our specialization in
four, five Commander to go into

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the mountains and arctic regions.

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So we requested and off we headed.

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Subsequently I did three tours.

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I was injured twice.

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Once by a suicide bomber
on my second tour.

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And I got fit, healed, recovered,
led a team again on my third tour,

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and unfortunately stepped on an
improvised explosive device that

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blew my last leg off below knee.

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So it was an amputee in the armed
forces that's called a scratch.

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'Cause it's not through
knee or above knee.

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So that's maybe why I can maneuver
a little better than the average

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person's, you know, higher amputation.

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I lost digits to my right,
lost right arm, right leg.

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But I.

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Onto the radio to call some things in.

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And I, I lost my facial identity.

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My face was blown off and a degloved.

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So over the next few years, that was
the 5th of November of all dates to

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play around with fireworks and bombs.

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It had absolute to be the 5th of November.

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It took me about six years to
get my you know, the surgery.

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I had about 11, at least 11 surgeries
to rebuild my face from using bits

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of my forehead, rib cartilage from
my ears and all sorts of stuff.

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So, yeah that took some time.

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And in that time I needed
something to occupy myself.

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I was a young guy, you know,
you're 27, 28 years of age, you've

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got a family, young family, but
you've still got that adrenaline.

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You've still got those ghosts
from being on previous tours and

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you're worried about your future.

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But mostly you're trying to sort your
head out whilst you're trying to sort

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your body out and necess, you can't
necessarily do that at the same time.

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So there is a time for each of those.

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I found out about Horseback uk.

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I found there was a, a former Royal
Marines officer and his wife, who was

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a police officer working with horses
up in the Highlands of Scotland.

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They approached the commando
unit and said, well, maybe the

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guys wanna try some horsemanship.

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At end of the, the horses got
four legs and I've got one.

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I thought, well, that, that makes sense.

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There's a bit of, you know, mobility
with dignity and it's Western, so

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it's that kind of iconic cowboy
imagery that it conjures up.

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And I thought, yeah, let's
go, let's go take a look.

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And as soon as I got here,
it was under my skin.

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I loved being around the horses.

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I loved especially riding the
horses, but I found that there

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was more of a relationship working
with the horses on the ground, that

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they were kind of flight animals.

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They wanted to run away
very much like I did.

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I needed to find my herd,
horses needed to be in a herd.

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So eventually I came back
to mine and that's me.

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Yeah.

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15 years now.

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So I've never left.

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They can't get rid of me.

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Rupert Isaacson: It, well, one of
the things which I was really struck

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by when I was up with you all was
it really did feel like a family.

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And obviously, you know,
Emma, it is a family.

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I mean, it's you, your husband,
your daughters are involved.

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They're great horse women as well.

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So like anything that's led from a
family from the inside this sort of

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brings a lot of love and functionality
and multi role, you know, cross

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fertilization into the thing, but.

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Sometimes things that are very family
run like that, it can feel that

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one's a little bit on the outside,
you know, from that core group.

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And it was very, very noticeable.

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I think Jay, from what
you're saying now, yeah.

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It makes a lot of sense that there's
this, it was, it was like sort of yeah.

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Clan headquarters and you're sort of
part of the clan and part of the family.

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And I, I could see how your horses
as well responded in this way.

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That the whole, the, the, the,
the horse herd and the human herd

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were unusually well integrated.

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And I was thinking, you know, why
is this, is this partly because

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they're not less like a riding
school where they all go off, you

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know, back to their suburban lives.

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Oh, this is sort of up in Scotland.

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Everyone's living there, sort of to some
degree in this slightly wilder place.

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Is it, is it that, is it,
you know, whatever it is,

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there's a special magic here.

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So Jay, talk to us about this
healing process of trying to find

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your identity to lose your face.

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That's huge.

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And I think that's something which
very, we, we can try to imagine

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it, but we can't imagine it.

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Talk to us about that process of
that loss of identity and how that's

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informed the work that you do.

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Jay Hare: So the, yeah.

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There.

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So you, you kind of,
you're a marine commando.

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One minute.

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You think you're the steely eye dealer
of death that, you know, heads out and

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does the nitty gritty stuff that used to
seeing war films and reading comic books.

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You look like your father.

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You think yourself rather
handsome in your uniform.

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And the next thing you have
gotta stick on those a false eye.

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And you can't quite smile
properly because you know the

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scarring and things like that.

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You don't wanna look at yourself in the
mirror 'cause it reminds you every day.

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You kind of look into your partner
and your wife and stuff and going,

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oh my God, this is not the person
that you walk down the aisle with.

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You are walking down the street and you're
worried that your nose is gonna fall off

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at any moment, different times of year.

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I was born in Greece, so I can really
easily, so I'd have to change from

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my winter nose to my summer nose,
and then from my summer nose to

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my winter nose, you had to super
glue it on when it was hot weather.

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I used to make a joke that I'd go for
lunch with some pals and you know, if I

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sneezed my eye would go into your salad.

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My nose would go into your pint.

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My leg had fall off.

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So the lad and the lads nicknamed me Mr.

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Potato at one point, which so
with that, you know, working with

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horses, they don't judge you.

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They judge how you are
with them in that moment.

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They don't care about looks, they
don't care about degrees, they

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don't care about the car that you
drove up in, on the motorbike.

00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:03.970
You just hopped off, whatever it might be.

00:14:04.390 --> 00:14:06.430
They want to be with you in the moment.

00:14:06.860 --> 00:14:12.500
And that gave me that time to, to assess
what I was gonna do and think about my

00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:18.170
own behaviors and who I was becoming and
who I wanted to become and who I had been.

00:14:18.650 --> 00:14:23.180
So yeah, it could be a little bit
forward, a little bit ambitious,

00:14:23.180 --> 00:14:26.540
a little bit strong, a little bit
too full on that doesn't work with

00:14:26.540 --> 00:14:28.370
the horse, but I can't be passive.

00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:31.730
I can't let them walk all over me
because then they'll try and take charge.

00:14:31.730 --> 00:14:35.810
So again, it's trying to find that
balance and that for me is what I found.

00:14:35.990 --> 00:14:36.350
Yeah.

00:14:36.470 --> 00:14:40.460
Riding, looking like a cowboy, heading
out to the states and all the stuff that

00:14:40.460 --> 00:14:43.070
I did after all spec, archery, fantastic.

00:14:43.070 --> 00:14:47.960
But it was actually finding
out who I was and where I kind

00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:49.670
of fit in into this third.

00:14:50.265 --> 00:14:52.325
And I.

00:14:58.565 --> 00:14:59.615
That fascinated me.

00:14:59.615 --> 00:15:03.815
So the more I read, the more books I
looked at, and Emma was constantly feeding

00:15:03.815 --> 00:15:06.035
me, read this, read that Jo, same word.

00:15:06.035 --> 00:15:08.315
Have you seen this YouTube documentary?

00:15:08.315 --> 00:15:08.975
Have you seen this?

00:15:08.975 --> 00:15:09.545
Have you seen that?

00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:11.675
And I started to think, yeah, there is.

00:15:11.735 --> 00:15:13.835
I believe in what Winston Church said.

00:15:13.835 --> 00:15:17.135
There is something about the outside
of a horse that's good, the inside

00:15:17.135 --> 00:15:18.815
of a man or a woman, obviously.

00:15:18.815 --> 00:15:23.375
But you know, Winston Churchill, right
or wrong or whatever politics, I felt of

00:15:23.375 --> 00:15:29.105
him as a very strong leader, a powerful
man that suffered with the black dog.

00:15:29.315 --> 00:15:34.445
When that darkness comes, when you
suffer some of the kind of traumas

00:15:34.535 --> 00:15:37.355
that have been through your life
and you try and comprehend what's

00:15:37.355 --> 00:15:42.755
happening, working with a horse enabled
me to do that and not clock watch.

00:15:42.785 --> 00:15:45.815
It wasn't being with a counselor that
say, right, you've got an hour with us

00:15:46.145 --> 00:15:47.915
off you go, tell me how you're feeling.

00:15:48.485 --> 00:15:49.565
Can you watch a war film?

00:15:49.565 --> 00:15:51.635
Can you listen to music,
watch your love life?

00:15:51.815 --> 00:15:52.900
Like, no, I don't.

00:15:53.105 --> 00:15:53.885
I wasn't interested

00:15:53.885 --> 00:15:54.125
in

00:15:54.125 --> 00:15:54.875
Jay Hare: that, any of that.

00:15:55.535 --> 00:15:58.925
I just wanted to work with
the horse on the ground and

00:15:58.925 --> 00:16:00.455
find out what made them tick.

00:16:00.925 --> 00:16:03.775
How you could train with them, how
you could communicate with them.

00:16:04.915 --> 00:16:10.045
And people used to say, you know,
do you go and see a a, do you go and

00:16:10.045 --> 00:16:11.935
see a, a therapist or a counselor?

00:16:12.265 --> 00:16:13.045
And I said, yeah, I do.

00:16:13.045 --> 00:16:14.275
And I'll tell you how meant to pay them.

00:16:14.275 --> 00:16:15.025
And they, oh, it

00:16:17.030 --> 00:16:17.640
thousands.

00:16:19.670 --> 00:16:23.575
And that me started that, that
beautiful journey, that on

00:16:25.645 --> 00:16:26.245
which is helping.

00:16:27.190 --> 00:16:30.320
Rupert Isaacson: When you are, when you're
dealing with that loss of identity it's

00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:31.820
obviously gonna give you a lot of empathy.

00:16:32.090 --> 00:16:36.670
And I presume that a lot of the people
that come to you as clients must

00:16:36.670 --> 00:16:40.470
be wrestling with similar dilemmas.

00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:46.380
Are you working with populations that have
also been physically maimed in that way?

00:16:46.800 --> 00:16:52.230
And then also when you're dealing with
say, youth at risk youth or troubled

00:16:52.230 --> 00:16:57.030
youth who are going through identity
crises in a different way, but of

00:16:57.030 --> 00:17:01.170
course have not yet seen the face of
suffering in the way that you have.

00:17:01.830 --> 00:17:03.720
How do you walk that line between

00:17:07.470 --> 00:17:12.930
thinking, you know, you, you don't
know what suffering is, you don't

00:17:12.930 --> 00:17:14.460
know what loss of identity is?

00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:15.150
I do.

00:17:15.300 --> 00:17:20.790
And also, yeah, but at the same time,
everyone experiences it in their way and

00:17:20.790 --> 00:17:25.830
just because they haven't experienced it
in the way that you have, which is so raw

00:17:26.370 --> 00:17:30.300
and so extreme, doesn't mean of course,
that the way in which they're experiencing

00:17:30.300 --> 00:17:35.580
is not driving them towards maybe
some negative outcomes in their life.

00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:40.290
Talk to me about how you walk
that dance and with helping others

00:17:40.290 --> 00:17:42.720
there, because what you've gone
through, you, you, you, you could.

00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:47.190
Be forgiven for almost going down a bit
of a bitter path and saying, well, you

00:17:47.190 --> 00:17:50.640
guys, no one can understand, you know,
the extent of what I've gone through.

00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:52.590
And, and you'd be absolutely right.

00:17:52.590 --> 00:17:57.060
People couldn't, and at the same time,
you can use this as an empathetic tool.

00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:04.530
Talk to me about that and talk to me about
how the horses have helped you to make

00:18:04.530 --> 00:18:08.280
it a tool rather than a, a hindrance.

00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:12.720
Jay Hare: I think working with our
military veterans, if we go into those

00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:17.850
first and I'll talk about the youngsters,
is it's a lot easier for me because if

00:18:17.850 --> 00:18:22.650
I wear shorts or you take a look at me,
you sort of go, right, he's either been

00:18:22.650 --> 00:18:25.170
in a bad accident and then you find out
it's military and you go, oh, right.

00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:26.430
That must been time and service.

00:18:26.850 --> 00:18:28.410
So it's like, okay, that's fine.

00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:29.040
Yeah.

00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:29.340
We get it.

00:18:29.345 --> 00:18:29.425
Right.

00:18:29.425 --> 00:18:30.750
There's a respect that comes with it.

00:18:30.755 --> 00:18:33.210
Respect that comes to that,
because you can see Yeah.

00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:35.220
This guy as a battle, et cetera.

00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:35.430
Yes.

00:18:36.750 --> 00:18:40.380
I totally empathize with guys
and girls that don't have the

00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:42.060
scars because they're internal.

00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:42.960
Mm-hmm.

00:18:43.080 --> 00:18:50.460
So as much as you have to deal with
your physical trauma, along comes the

00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:53.130
mental trauma to try and adjust to life.

00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:55.110
Try not to be bitter.

00:18:55.710 --> 00:18:57.340
The outward looking,

00:19:00.715 --> 00:19:01.635
I the.

00:19:09.565 --> 00:19:13.975
Think is such thing as can't,
don't tell me I can't jump over

00:19:13.975 --> 00:19:15.085
those horse hurdles with you.

00:19:16.225 --> 00:19:16.945
I will do it.

00:19:17.215 --> 00:19:20.605
I might have to take a break, take
leg off, readjust to run back again,

00:19:20.785 --> 00:19:22.015
but I'm still gonna do it with you.

00:19:22.615 --> 00:19:22.915
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:19:23.060 --> 00:19:27.715
Jay Hare: That's maybe the way
I was brought up with a military

00:19:27.715 --> 00:19:29.485
kind of family and grounding.

00:19:29.825 --> 00:19:34.775
Definitely for the training I received,
but also the way I like to lead my life.

00:19:35.555 --> 00:19:41.255
I like to remind our military community
of who they are through the horses

00:19:41.465 --> 00:19:43.115
because they're resilient creatures.

00:19:43.625 --> 00:19:43.865
They don't

00:19:44.075 --> 00:19:45.725
Jay Hare: sit and feel
sorry for themselves.

00:19:46.715 --> 00:19:52.835
And then with the youngsters is,
is adding those layers and saying,

00:19:52.895 --> 00:19:54.125
yeah, this might have happened to me.

00:19:54.185 --> 00:19:55.295
I'll tell you why.

00:19:55.325 --> 00:19:59.255
It's okay to ask a question
point and gossip in the corner.

00:19:59.255 --> 00:20:03.305
If you wanna know, I will be open and
honest with you as I possibly can.

00:20:04.145 --> 00:20:08.555
Don't ask me about the question of how
many times I've I pulled the trigger

00:20:08.555 --> 00:20:10.265
and how many, all that sort of stuff.

00:20:10.265 --> 00:20:14.225
Those are questions you don't ask a
serviceman, but if you wanna know what

00:20:14.225 --> 00:20:18.605
pain I went through, how I dealt with it,
what I felt about myself, I'll explain

00:20:18.605 --> 00:20:20.675
it because we can talk about this.

00:20:21.185 --> 00:20:25.955
I hope it never happens to you
in your life, but life is life.

00:20:26.315 --> 00:20:29.885
So things might have happened to
you in the past, the way you've been

00:20:29.885 --> 00:20:30.935
brought up, the way you've been.

00:20:34.190 --> 00:20:39.800
Let's try and build more layers to
that onion to build a little bit of

00:20:39.800 --> 00:20:45.140
arm, a little bit of strength to you,
some inner strength whilst keeping

00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:49.790
that empathy and being able to still
love life and love other people.

00:20:50.090 --> 00:20:52.520
And through the horses you can
do that with the youngster.

00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:57.620
They can start to show empathy towards
another creature, another being.

00:20:58.520 --> 00:21:02.420
Then you are winning and that assists
the school and that assists the

00:21:02.420 --> 00:21:05.600
counselors and that assists their growth.

00:21:06.350 --> 00:21:10.970
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I should imagine
too that because you do carry the scars

00:21:10.970 --> 00:21:18.800
of battle, it is got to help people who
are much younger than that looking out at

00:21:18.890 --> 00:21:24.410
their lives with some perspective to say,
okay, wow, I see that this can happen.

00:21:25.040 --> 00:21:28.790
Okay, this has happened to
this guy and yet he seems he's

00:21:28.790 --> 00:21:30.020
here in a position to help me.

00:21:31.670 --> 00:21:36.470
This must give quite a gift, I
would think, to some of those

00:21:36.470 --> 00:21:39.620
kids who are already facing a
certain amount of hopelessness.

00:21:39.870 --> 00:21:42.930
Even if it's only perceived
hopelessness to them, it feels real.

00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:44.320
Do they ever say that to you?

00:21:44.350 --> 00:21:45.190
Do they say Yeah.

00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:51.310
You know, being with you, looking at
you sit hearing about your experiences?

00:21:52.330 --> 00:21:54.670
This puts my world into perspective.

00:21:56.230 --> 00:21:57.670
What sort of feedback do you get?

00:21:59.020 --> 00:22:02.500
Jay Hare: I start off with, with
getting a lot more girls through

00:22:02.560 --> 00:22:06.990
than we do boys at the moment, but
it's always, I've got this problem.

00:22:06.990 --> 00:22:09.210
I've been pigeonholed with this,
but they wouldn't say that.

00:22:09.210 --> 00:22:13.620
So they'll say things like, I've
got a adhd, medicated, and I'm told

00:22:13.620 --> 00:22:16.170
I'm useless and I can't do anything
and I'll never become anything.

00:22:16.590 --> 00:22:17.430
And I go, really?

00:22:18.030 --> 00:22:20.610
You've got a super power.

00:22:20.970 --> 00:22:25.020
You have got this ability to think
a hundred miles an hour of a hundred

00:22:25.020 --> 00:22:29.190
different problems and solutions and
come up with them whilst people are still

00:22:29.190 --> 00:22:32.070
just getting out the seats to put the
jacket on and go deal with one of them.

00:22:32.730 --> 00:22:37.260
Now we can sit here all day and talk
about the issues and the problems,

00:22:37.620 --> 00:22:41.550
or we can go and find that light
bulb moment for you because I've got

00:22:41.550 --> 00:22:45.300
a DHD, so is this team member, so
that team member, in fact they've

00:22:45.300 --> 00:22:45.989
got a bit of this and a bit of that.

00:22:46.830 --> 00:22:50.100
So let's go and be those adventures.

00:22:50.190 --> 00:22:55.200
Let's go and find what it is
that really makes us tick.

00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.490
And we can do that through the, through
working with the horses on the ground and

00:22:59.490 --> 00:23:03.330
then up to the level of where they'll be
able to sit on them, if that's depending

00:23:03.330 --> 00:23:04.470
on the course and what we're doing.

00:23:07.080 --> 00:23:08.940
Does my experiences make a difference?

00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:11.130
Yeah, possibly because it's visual.

00:23:11.130 --> 00:23:12.090
Mm-hmm.

00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:16.510
Jay Hare: It's that ability to say
to a youngster, yeah, this happens,

00:23:16.510 --> 00:23:19.120
but it, it doesn't define you.

00:23:19.900 --> 00:23:21.310
It can just make you stronger.

00:23:22.630 --> 00:23:22.780
And I.

00:23:29.125 --> 00:23:32.095
Probably isn't, might be
midweek, it might be into the

00:23:32.095 --> 00:23:33.565
second phase of the second week.

00:23:33.595 --> 00:23:40.165
It might be into the 12th of development
program takes go, you know what

00:23:40.165 --> 00:23:41.935
I've wanted ask you this question.

00:23:42.175 --> 00:23:50.005
Or it could be 3, 4, 5 years later,
whether had this where I youngster, he

00:23:50.005 --> 00:23:59.605
served coffee at all places, take up range
with my, and this tall came up to me.

00:23:59.605 --> 00:24:04.025
He wasn't tall when I first him, he of
the group and he said said, how you doing?

00:24:05.285 --> 00:24:05.555
See you?

00:24:05.645 --> 00:24:06.995
And it was on the tip of my tongue.

00:24:06.995 --> 00:24:09.135
I was yeah, I knew I'd worked with him.

00:24:09.225 --> 00:24:11.325
I remembered which group, but
I couldn't remember his name.

00:24:11.985 --> 00:24:13.185
And I was, yeah mate, I'm doing well.

00:24:13.185 --> 00:24:13.605
I'm doing well.

00:24:13.605 --> 00:24:15.645
Whatcha up to, oh well I'm working here.

00:24:15.645 --> 00:24:18.615
And he got called away after
dropping off the coffees and

00:24:19.245 --> 00:24:19.425
you know,

00:24:19.605 --> 00:24:20.295
Jay Hare: cakes and stuff.

00:24:20.925 --> 00:24:23.685
And I went back and I
said, Liam, how you doing?

00:24:24.075 --> 00:24:24.765
Good to see you.

00:24:25.065 --> 00:24:25.935
How you doing buddy?

00:24:26.325 --> 00:24:27.375
And he says, I'm doing well.

00:24:27.580 --> 00:24:28.430
I've got this job.

00:24:28.430 --> 00:24:31.065
I've got another job and I'm
working jobs at the weekend.

00:24:31.395 --> 00:24:35.835
I'm gonna study psychology in Edinburgh,
but I'm gonna take a year out and I'm

00:24:35.835 --> 00:24:37.545
gonna go and travel around South America.

00:24:37.995 --> 00:24:39.615
I went, oh my goodness.

00:24:39.615 --> 00:24:45.345
You were what was described to me as
a youngster who was disengaged from.

00:24:48.120 --> 00:24:50.010
I was called something, it was a lot rude.

00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:54.900
When I was in school, I was
called, but I shook it down.

00:24:54.900 --> 00:24:56.610
I gave a, I said, I'm so proud of you.

00:24:56.850 --> 00:24:57.750
Absolutely brilliant.

00:24:57.750 --> 00:25:00.030
That's, that's, that's a success story.

00:25:00.030 --> 00:25:00.690
That's amazing.

00:25:00.690 --> 00:25:03.240
And he said, I want to study psychology.

00:25:03.270 --> 00:25:05.040
'cause I wanna be able
to help people like uj.

00:25:05.250 --> 00:25:07.080
I'm not a psychologist,
I'm not a counselor.

00:25:07.350 --> 00:25:10.830
I'm just someone trying to do
something good and have found horses

00:25:10.830 --> 00:25:11.940
is the great way of doing that.

00:25:12.330 --> 00:25:16.230
But I inspired a youngster to go
into that world and yeah, I'll

00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:17.160
tell you what, I'll be honest.

00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:17.310
Yeah.

00:25:17.310 --> 00:25:20.610
Someone peeling onions there
and it got a bit as I left.

00:25:20.610 --> 00:25:20.730
And I,

00:25:23.865 --> 00:25:25.955
and I hear a lot of success stories.

00:25:26.014 --> 00:25:28.415
You're not gonna hit on point every time.

00:25:29.885 --> 00:25:31.055
Some you just can't help.

00:25:31.055 --> 00:25:33.905
And some go along a different track.

00:25:33.935 --> 00:25:35.465
They take a different route.

00:25:36.455 --> 00:25:38.825
But when I hear stories like that,
I know I'm doing something right.

00:25:38.855 --> 00:25:41.825
I know that we are doing something
right and I know that horses are

00:25:41.825 --> 00:25:45.995
working because it just gives people
that ability to think outside the box.

00:25:46.264 --> 00:25:47.825
When you're doing equine
assisted services,

00:25:48.935 --> 00:25:50.935
Rupert Isaacson: when you say to
them let's go on an adventure.

00:25:51.415 --> 00:25:53.215
Talk us through what some of
those adventures look like.

00:25:53.215 --> 00:25:58.324
And you also said that some of the work
can be mounted, which I love because as

00:25:58.324 --> 00:26:01.504
you know, with Horse Boy Method, we do a
lot of mounted work, but within the equine

00:26:01.504 --> 00:26:04.084
assisted world, it's often not mounted.

00:26:04.475 --> 00:26:05.675
So I'm intrigued by that.

00:26:05.675 --> 00:26:08.284
Talk us through what these
adventures might be and what

00:26:09.064 --> 00:26:10.175
Yeah, just talk us through it.

00:26:12.220 --> 00:26:15.725
Jay Hare: So some of the basic ones are
actually being out in the fresh air.

00:26:16.325 --> 00:26:23.675
Realizing your outdoors, looking at
nature, starting to look at the world

00:26:23.675 --> 00:26:30.965
around you and being aware of it, being
able to touch it, feel it, get amongst it.

00:26:31.325 --> 00:26:33.455
Be within it alongside the horse.

00:26:33.485 --> 00:26:38.955
And noticing subtle little things like
behaviors, like, eye contact, that

00:26:38.955 --> 00:26:40.905
pressure that can come from eye contact.

00:26:41.210 --> 00:26:44.060
That that ability to
communicate without speaking.

00:26:44.420 --> 00:26:46.490
You know, how do we do that?

00:26:46.490 --> 00:26:49.130
How do we pick up on the
energy of each other?

00:26:49.130 --> 00:26:51.200
I had a we're running
a course at the moment.

00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.270
As a young girl, she gets
quite angry about things that

00:26:54.270 --> 00:26:56.070
she gets confused with stuff.

00:26:56.460 --> 00:27:00.840
And today I said to her, look, I
can feel the anger coming off you.

00:27:00.840 --> 00:27:02.310
I can feel your frustration.

00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:04.020
What's going on?

00:27:04.020 --> 00:27:07.590
And she told me, and I said, do you feel
that with a horse when you get frustrated

00:27:07.590 --> 00:27:09.030
because a horse can pick that up from you?

00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:10.860
I didn't realize I gave that off.

00:27:10.860 --> 00:27:13.680
And I said to some people,
you do, you give that off.

00:27:13.710 --> 00:27:16.350
It's not forging her arms and sulking.

00:27:16.770 --> 00:27:20.640
It's just this energy you give
off and the horse pick up on that.

00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:26.580
So that starts with that kind of a little
adventure, but talking about ourselves,

00:27:26.670 --> 00:27:30.960
which, which one of the horses are we,
Ann is really good at pairing you up with.

00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:35.100
Personality to, I don't
know, what would you call it?

00:27:35.100 --> 00:27:36.210
Your ality?

00:27:36.930 --> 00:27:37.200
Mm.

00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:39.840
It needs to be opposite
or are they the same?

00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:42.600
Sometimes they can be
opposite in their characters.

00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:45.550
And on the spectrum of, of who they are.

00:27:45.550 --> 00:27:51.850
But then also we've seen horses that
just join with someone who's maybe

00:27:51.850 --> 00:27:55.360
on the autistic spectrum and it,
the horse just goes to them and all

00:27:55.360 --> 00:27:56.440
of a sudden they're partnered up.

00:27:56.590 --> 00:28:00.100
And we've seen that twice this week
of horses we didn't think would wanna

00:28:00.100 --> 00:28:02.470
work anywhere near some of these kids.

00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:03.700
And they were like, no, we love them.

00:28:04.300 --> 00:28:05.110
This is who we want.

00:28:05.260 --> 00:28:05.710
We love them.

00:28:06.430 --> 00:28:07.660
So that's an adventure.

00:28:07.930 --> 00:28:08.260
Yes.

00:28:08.265 --> 00:28:10.210
They can take them out with the horses.

00:28:10.670 --> 00:28:11.960
We can go and do bushcraft.

00:28:12.110 --> 00:28:15.080
We can ride out, we can
do camp outs and things.

00:28:15.620 --> 00:28:20.240
Just something, it's almost like you
said to us, Rupert, that you follow

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:24.710
the kid and go with them and take the
horse because that's the kind of conduit

00:28:25.310 --> 00:28:26.840
that's the bridge a lot of times.

00:28:27.410 --> 00:28:32.750
So we have lesson plans, we have
learning outcomes, objectives,

00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:35.120
qualifications, all that sort of stuff.

00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:38.750
But sometimes, and we've had it this week
and we had it today, do you know what

00:28:39.050 --> 00:28:43.250
change to what we were gonna do Today
is gonna happen tomorrow or it's gonna

00:28:43.250 --> 00:28:45.920
happen Friday today we are doing this.

00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:46.550
We're changing it.

00:28:49.895 --> 00:28:54.335
We tell them, we explain that to them, you
see a sigh of relief and they go, yeah,

00:28:54.335 --> 00:28:56.045
that's exactly what we wanna do today.

00:28:56.255 --> 00:28:59.465
Again, you're picking up on that energy
from the youngster and you're picking

00:28:59.465 --> 00:29:01.805
up that energy from the horse and
you're mixing it together and going,

00:29:02.015 --> 00:29:03.215
right, let's get the best outcome.

00:29:03.875 --> 00:29:07.025
So whatever adventure it
is, use your imagination.

00:29:07.985 --> 00:29:10.655
Go out there, have fun,
try different things.

00:29:11.255 --> 00:29:13.895
And that's exactly the conversation
we had when you came up to visitors

00:29:13.895 --> 00:29:15.395
and I went, yeah, I get this guy.

00:29:15.455 --> 00:29:16.385
I totally understand it.

00:29:16.385 --> 00:29:16.895
That's the way I'm,

00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:20.265
Rupert Isaacson: you know, when people
think of Bitcoin assisted world, I

00:29:20.265 --> 00:29:23.065
think they often think about people
working in arenas in a very, kind

00:29:23.065 --> 00:29:25.705
of fairly controlled sort of a way.

00:29:25.915 --> 00:29:29.305
You're out there, you've also,
you've got a lovely indoor arena.

00:29:29.305 --> 00:29:34.915
You've got lovely round pen and outside
arenas too, but you also have the forest

00:29:34.915 --> 00:29:40.695
and the open hill and you know, not
every, not every equine assisted place

00:29:40.755 --> 00:29:42.705
of course, has that kind of access.

00:29:43.315 --> 00:29:46.195
But there are some I've seen
that do that don't quite use it.

00:29:46.255 --> 00:29:47.455
And I'm always like, oh man.

00:29:47.455 --> 00:29:49.255
But that's kind of where the magic is.

00:29:49.255 --> 00:29:51.025
It's, it's out there in nature.

00:29:51.325 --> 00:29:54.925
You, you mentioned going out and
even camping out with horses.

00:29:54.985 --> 00:29:57.115
Paint a picture for us
about how that can look.

00:29:57.115 --> 00:30:00.025
What, how, how might you organize that?

00:30:00.055 --> 00:30:03.985
What kind of people might you take on
that and, and how might that play out?

00:30:04.975 --> 00:30:07.885
Jay Hare: So we've changed
various different programs and.

00:30:12.415 --> 00:30:15.925
We have one that is a personal
development three phase program.

00:30:15.955 --> 00:30:18.175
So each phase being a week
long, it's residential.

00:30:18.565 --> 00:30:24.205
And that culminates in a final exercise
where we take the horses out into,

00:30:24.415 --> 00:30:25.825
you know, the Highlands of Scotland.

00:30:26.785 --> 00:30:29.545
We used to ride them out
and then we camp out.

00:30:29.575 --> 00:30:30.475
We had the horses out.

00:30:31.315 --> 00:30:33.775
Depending on the time of year, you
can have problems with kind of,

00:30:34.255 --> 00:30:34.525
you know,

00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:35.090
You know,

00:30:35.865 --> 00:30:38.925
Jay Hare: Mid high and,
and all sorts of stuff.

00:30:38.925 --> 00:30:40.065
So we've gotta be careful with that.

00:30:40.155 --> 00:30:42.555
Or we can bring the horses back in Yeah.

00:30:42.585 --> 00:30:44.265
From that and leave our
guys out on the ground.

00:30:44.685 --> 00:30:49.395
So now I think looking at the kind
of wellbeing courses that we're doing

00:30:49.455 --> 00:30:53.625
is actually walking out to get the
horse, spending time out in the field

00:30:53.835 --> 00:30:56.935
looking at herd behavior, which talk
to you about, she takes that part.

00:30:56.935 --> 00:30:56.995
Yeah.

00:30:57.595 --> 00:31:02.695
And understanding who we are, where
we sit in the herd, what type of horse

00:31:02.695 --> 00:31:07.765
do we, what type of personality have
we got at all times being outdoors.

00:31:08.025 --> 00:31:10.365
And the more outdoors
we can be, the better.

00:31:10.365 --> 00:31:13.545
So sometimes it might be as simple
as just standing outside and just,

00:31:14.775 --> 00:31:18.555
you know, doing some breath work,
maybe alongside the horses, trying

00:31:18.555 --> 00:31:24.375
to mirror the horses, inhale and
exhale with ourselves, trying to work

00:31:24.375 --> 00:31:25.995
out our heartbeat the same as them.

00:31:26.655 --> 00:31:27.555
Those are the kind of.

00:31:33.570 --> 00:31:36.540
Out a little bit more on other
programs, we can make them more complex.

00:31:37.230 --> 00:31:39.570
And we, as I say, we are lucky here.

00:31:39.570 --> 00:31:41.100
We we're in the Highlands of Scotland.

00:31:41.610 --> 00:31:43.260
We suffer some heavy winters.

00:31:43.260 --> 00:31:44.940
We're just coming out kind of one now.

00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:46.050
I'd say that was too heavy.

00:31:46.650 --> 00:31:50.310
But the springs here, we're
starting to get that energy.

00:31:50.370 --> 00:31:51.990
The horses are getting lively again.

00:31:52.350 --> 00:31:52.770
Yes.

00:31:52.770 --> 00:31:54.780
Let's, let's start having
some adventures again.

00:31:54.930 --> 00:31:56.550
What that looks like depends on the group,

00:31:56.910 --> 00:31:57.300
Rupert Isaacson: right?

00:31:57.930 --> 00:31:59.490
You mentioned Bush bushcraft.

00:31:59.490 --> 00:31:59.820
Of course.

00:31:59.820 --> 00:32:00.660
That's dear to my heart.

00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:04.710
You know, having lived with hunters and
gatherers, and I, I know very much the

00:32:04.710 --> 00:32:12.630
healing power of touching, sleeping,
being, working with nature in that

00:32:14.070 --> 00:32:20.080
intimate way that our DNA wants, because
that's who we are, we're organisms.

00:32:20.620 --> 00:32:24.490
Again, this isn't something that's
often integrated into equine assisted

00:32:24.490 --> 00:32:27.970
stuff, so I'm intrigued about talk,
talk to me about the bushcraft that

00:32:27.970 --> 00:32:31.450
you do and, and some of the changes
that you see with people with that.

00:32:33.850 --> 00:32:34.630
Jay Hare: The bushcraft is,

00:32:37.090 --> 00:32:38.320
again, getting us outdoors.

00:32:38.320 --> 00:32:41.260
It's something that we brought
into the course you know, many,

00:32:41.260 --> 00:32:45.580
many moons ago, various experts,
professionals coming into help with,

00:32:45.580 --> 00:32:46.960
with training and things like that.

00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:53.955
It, it keeps you, if you,
if you've got a deficit.

00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:01.990
For instance, it is a fantastic way of
doing so many different lessons and moving

00:33:02.110 --> 00:33:06.790
around in that, that classroom because
it is a classroom and if it's underneath

00:33:06.890 --> 00:33:11.510
an old drops parachute with a fire going
and you dunno, you're talking about

00:33:11.510 --> 00:33:16.640
how to build shelters or you're talking
about plan N in your survival situation.

00:33:16.940 --> 00:33:22.970
Or if you're simply ma making string
the bows and arrows out of nettles to

00:33:23.030 --> 00:33:26.390
you know, different forms of making
a fight, you can switch and you can

00:33:26.390 --> 00:33:27.800
pick up on the energy of that group.

00:33:27.800 --> 00:33:30.440
Go, okay, we're losing a bit here,
let's put that to the side and

00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:31.730
let's move on to something else.

00:33:32.060 --> 00:33:36.649
Or maybe that particular group
is into that particular lesson.

00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:40.010
Okay, I can take the group and I can split
the group and mix it up a little bit.

00:33:40.490 --> 00:33:44.935
So there's so many dynamics to do
in bushcraft, but it's, it's earthy,

00:33:44.935 --> 00:33:48.350
it's salty, it's getting your
hands dirty, it's being in nature.

00:33:48.620 --> 00:33:49.790
It's noticing things.

00:33:49.790 --> 00:33:50.990
It's learning things.

00:33:51.169 --> 00:33:53.240
It's not a classroom environment yet.

00:33:53.540 --> 00:33:56.000
It's the best classroom to be in.

00:33:57.140 --> 00:33:59.300
Rupert Isaacson: What, what
sort of changes have you seen?

00:33:59.410 --> 00:34:01.120
Everyone's got, you know, their stories.

00:34:01.120 --> 00:34:04.809
What stories spring to mind
for you of transformations

00:34:04.809 --> 00:34:06.459
you've seen using bushcraft?

00:34:08.649 --> 00:34:10.500
Jay Hare: I think kind
of attention to detail.

00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:18.000
When they start to notice things
and they start to learn a little

00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:23.580
bit how they then, how they then
become the teacher to the others.

00:34:24.030 --> 00:34:26.970
And that is fascinating because, you
know, they're learning when they're

00:34:26.970 --> 00:34:29.010
starting to teach what they've
learned to other people, right.

00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:33.050
Which ingrained in that, in that
that kind of psyche with them.

00:34:33.050 --> 00:34:34.580
So, yeah.

00:34:34.910 --> 00:34:41.120
I, I love it when a teacher or
staff member comes up and they've

00:34:41.120 --> 00:34:46.940
been trying for ages to talk about
biology and photosynthesis and, you

00:34:46.940 --> 00:34:50.540
know, whatever it might be, how a
tree grows and things and how roots

00:34:50.540 --> 00:34:52.325
work and how fungi works, et cetera.

00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:58.040
And the biology teacher comes up
that they've not maybe jelled with

00:34:58.040 --> 00:35:00.830
and they've had a bit of abrasion,
they've rubbed up against each other.

00:35:01.100 --> 00:35:04.490
All of a sudden the youngsters sitting
there going, and this is how this works.

00:35:04.550 --> 00:35:05.285
This is how that is.

00:35:05.285 --> 00:35:09.470
And this is called a so and
so, and this is a tree and

00:35:09.470 --> 00:35:10.970
this oak tree and this is this.

00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:14.720
And the teacher's just kind of, okay,
that's amazing because few weeks

00:35:14.720 --> 00:35:16.310
ago I was trying to get this to you.

00:35:16.310 --> 00:35:17.750
Now I've got somewhere to go.

00:35:17.750 --> 00:35:22.010
Now I can pass on that little bit of
knowledge because we've got a commonality,

00:35:22.010 --> 00:35:24.080
we've got an interest together.

00:35:24.560 --> 00:35:28.430
And that has repaired so many
relationships with working with

00:35:28.430 --> 00:35:29.780
these schools and organizations.

00:35:30.170 --> 00:35:31.730
I think that's, that's just golden.

00:35:31.970 --> 00:35:32.630
That's ace.

00:35:34.970 --> 00:35:35.360
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

00:35:35.690 --> 00:35:39.800
I mean, it's, it's, I know this
is what you do every day, but it's

00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:50.920
cutting edge work and it's so much
more rich and layered than simply

00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.080
going into an arena with a horse.

00:35:53.140 --> 00:36:00.430
Not that that's not a wonderful
thing to do, but you guys take it to

00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:03.910
a level that I am unused to seeing.

00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.980
And it's, it's, it's extremely impressive.

00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:06.220
Jay.

00:36:06.610 --> 00:36:10.990
Alright, I want to ask Emma
some questions now, Emma.

00:36:11.080 --> 00:36:13.090
How, why did you start this
whole thing in the first place?

00:36:13.150 --> 00:36:14.230
Like, you must be mad.

00:36:14.260 --> 00:36:18.970
Why, why would you, why, why would
anybody start an equine thing, let

00:36:18.970 --> 00:36:27.700
alone in Northern Scotland where the
weather is brutal and, sorry mate.

00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:28.390
Are you alright, ed?

00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:29.170
Yeah.

00:36:29.290 --> 00:36:33.370
So Jay has to leave right now, listeners,
so if you've got any other questions for

00:36:33.370 --> 00:36:38.150
him, just email us and we'll we'll pass
them on and we'll get answers from you.

00:36:38.150 --> 00:36:39.110
Jay, thank you so much.

00:36:39.110 --> 00:36:40.160
It was an honor.

00:36:40.460 --> 00:36:40.760
All right.

00:36:41.330 --> 00:36:41.630
Cheers, ma'am.

00:36:42.740 --> 00:36:42.950
Okay,

00:36:44.510 --> 00:36:45.710
Emma Hutchison: so the
whole thing started.

00:36:45.710 --> 00:36:50.000
We moved to the property that
we're at now 16 years ago.

00:36:50.870 --> 00:36:56.720
And the idea was, is that we would be
here and we were going to breed port

00:36:56.990 --> 00:37:02.930
horses and we were gonna take people out
in Western to the beautiful side hills.

00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:04.700
And that was the idea.

00:37:04.700 --> 00:37:06.530
And then we'd been here for, so.

00:37:09.260 --> 00:37:14.010
And moved here in the November, in
the December we had some friends come

00:37:14.010 --> 00:37:17.760
around and quite a few of them had
come back from Afghanistan at the time,

00:37:18.180 --> 00:37:22.600
and they were, they were not in a good
place either physically or mentally.

00:37:23.150 --> 00:37:24.770
And we sat around a big bonfire.

00:37:24.770 --> 00:37:29.100
And then during the days, we, at the time
we had I had a horse, jock had a horse,

00:37:29.160 --> 00:37:30.990
and the, the girls had a couple of ponies.

00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:33.510
And these guys, we just
interacted with the horses.

00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:37.650
We were just outside and one of the
guys said, this is what we need to do.

00:37:37.680 --> 00:37:41.400
This is how guys need to decompress
after they've been to war.

00:37:41.460 --> 00:37:44.940
This has been a real kind of breath
of fresh air for me, and this is

00:37:44.940 --> 00:37:46.590
what I, fresh, I absolutely needed.

00:37:47.490 --> 00:37:49.055
So that was really the start of it.

00:37:49.055 --> 00:37:52.650
And of course we thought, you know,
I'm quite enthusiastic about things,

00:37:52.650 --> 00:37:55.800
stocks extremely enthusiastic about
most things, and we just said, right,

00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:56.820
well, we're gonna do something.

00:37:56.910 --> 00:38:04.720
And it was 2008 it was the height of
Afghanistan and it was when we were, we

00:38:04.720 --> 00:38:09.040
were all watching the news and seeing
the coffins come back and it, you know,

00:38:09.040 --> 00:38:10.660
it was, it was a pretty horrific time.

00:38:10.660 --> 00:38:15.410
So Jock approached four five Commando,
which is in our growth, just over the

00:38:15.410 --> 00:38:19.040
hill, about an hour and a half away, and
went to the CO there and said, look, you

00:38:19.040 --> 00:38:22.549
know, we've got this property, we've got
some horses, we've got a bit of a rundown.

00:38:24.259 --> 00:38:25.819
The who have been injured.

00:38:29.930 --> 00:38:32.569
The co sent their injured troop.

00:38:32.569 --> 00:38:33.019
So there was a

00:38:33.319 --> 00:38:35.120
Rupert Isaacson: co being
commanding officer for those

00:38:35.629 --> 00:38:36.709
who are not British, right?

00:38:36.919 --> 00:38:37.100
Yeah.

00:38:37.100 --> 00:38:37.129
Or,

00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:41.099
Emma Hutchison: Sent their injured
troop, which was called Harden Troop.

00:38:41.189 --> 00:38:45.029
And there must have been probably
about 20 guys came up for the day

00:38:45.029 --> 00:38:46.649
of, which Jay was one of them.

00:38:47.219 --> 00:38:47.609
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:38:47.979 --> 00:38:50.829
Emma Hutchison: And these guys
all had, they were all young.

00:38:51.279 --> 00:38:53.049
They all had life-changing injuries.

00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.579
So you're talking, so Jay had
one leg, we had a triple amputee.

00:38:57.579 --> 00:38:59.949
We had, you know, an 18-year-old.

00:38:59.954 --> 00:39:04.199
It, it was, it was life-changing
for us to see it, to actually

00:39:04.204 --> 00:39:08.729
to to be there and hands-on with
these guys and hear the stories.

00:39:08.729 --> 00:39:12.450
It was we both felt that
we had to do something.

00:39:12.450 --> 00:39:15.390
We didn't know what it was that we
wanted to do or what we could do.

00:39:15.969 --> 00:39:18.009
But we, we knew that we
wanted to do something.

00:39:18.699 --> 00:39:20.649
So we are in Aberdeenship.

00:39:21.490 --> 00:39:25.240
We have Aberdeen City about 30 miles away.

00:39:25.669 --> 00:39:29.989
Obviously Aberdeen is the
oil place of the, the uk.

00:39:30.829 --> 00:39:33.799
And so we went and approached some
of the oil companies and said,

00:39:33.799 --> 00:39:36.919
look, you know, would you like
to be involved in this project?

00:39:37.219 --> 00:39:39.619
And they, of course, they
said, well, what project?

00:39:39.619 --> 00:39:40.639
You don't have a project.

00:39:41.359 --> 00:39:44.699
So, we had to then go through the
process of saying, well, what is it?

00:39:51.359 --> 00:39:53.669
And it just evolved from that really.

00:39:53.669 --> 00:39:56.429
And as I say, then Jay came
up with several of the other

00:39:56.429 --> 00:40:00.389
guys and it has just evolved.

00:40:01.109 --> 00:40:05.009
And we got more horses and we got more
people, and then more people got involved.

00:40:05.009 --> 00:40:09.629
And once you get onto that rollercoaster,
there was no getting off really.

00:40:09.629 --> 00:40:12.479
And the, the, I mean, my
children at the time were three,

00:40:12.509 --> 00:40:15.269
five and seven or something.

00:40:15.329 --> 00:40:17.579
So they were involved
right from the start.

00:40:17.579 --> 00:40:19.409
We had no facilities outside.

00:40:19.949 --> 00:40:21.929
So the kitchen was our kitchen.

00:40:21.959 --> 00:40:23.399
The toilet was our toilet.

00:40:24.009 --> 00:40:25.419
The fridge was our fridge.

00:40:25.539 --> 00:40:28.839
The, the kids' lunch and dinner
frequently went missing because it

00:40:28.839 --> 00:40:30.819
was eaten by the course attendees.

00:40:30.819 --> 00:40:35.259
And so it was, it was quite challenging
to start with, but we eventually

00:40:35.259 --> 00:40:37.319
managed to get some traction.

00:40:37.319 --> 00:40:39.029
Some people heard about
what we were doing.

00:40:39.329 --> 00:40:44.129
The British military at the time crawled
all over us because we were looking

00:40:44.129 --> 00:40:46.739
after their injured, still serving guys.

00:40:47.549 --> 00:40:51.359
So we had to every risk
assessment, everything was just,

00:40:51.509 --> 00:40:52.619
you know, how are you doing this?

00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:53.909
How are you looking after them?

00:40:54.269 --> 00:40:57.989
You better make sure that you
are not damaging them further.

00:40:57.989 --> 00:41:00.929
And there had been some incidents
in other places where people had

00:41:00.929 --> 00:41:06.094
been on horses and fallen off
and, you know, been more damaged.

00:41:06.099 --> 00:41:07.429
So, yeah, everything was.

00:41:12.064 --> 00:41:15.424
Massively sort of overkill to, to make
sure that we protected these guys.

00:41:15.884 --> 00:41:19.364
And so we were one of the only
places where serving guys, serving

00:41:19.364 --> 00:41:21.164
injured guys were being sent

00:41:21.554 --> 00:41:21.854
Rupert Isaacson: forward.

00:41:21.854 --> 00:41:25.234
Well, that, that was gonna be my question
when you said that Jay and the others who

00:41:25.234 --> 00:41:30.004
came up, you know, had these life-changing
injuries, and I assumed clearly wrongly

00:41:30.334 --> 00:41:34.144
that when you had injuries like that,
you would be automatically discharged.

00:41:34.654 --> 00:41:36.274
Yet you said they were still serving.

00:41:37.234 --> 00:41:43.414
So what capacities were they serving in
and was the idea that they would then stay

00:41:43.414 --> 00:41:47.254
in the military or transition out of it?

00:41:48.004 --> 00:41:51.484
What, talk us through, because
I'm, I'm not familiar with that.

00:41:51.594 --> 00:41:55.884
With that sort of infrastructure at
all, I, I, I've worked, we work with

00:41:55.884 --> 00:41:59.364
a lot of veterans, obviously, in our
organization, but by the time we meet

00:41:59.364 --> 00:42:01.974
them, they're veterans or we meet
with people who are still serving,

00:42:02.154 --> 00:42:06.544
like we work with the German army
but they're not necessarily injured.

00:42:06.544 --> 00:42:08.734
And so they're sort of
in between deployments.

00:42:08.854 --> 00:42:10.954
So that seems to me a really
interesting gray area.

00:42:11.414 --> 00:42:15.674
If someone has a life-changing
industry in injury, but is still

00:42:15.884 --> 00:42:18.914
serving, how, how does that look?

00:42:20.624 --> 00:42:23.714
Where, where would you guys fit
in with that, with your service?

00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:28.220
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:42:28.220 --> 00:42:32.140
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:42:32.210 --> 00:42:36.480
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:42:36.540 --> 00:42:42.120
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:42:42.715 --> 00:42:49.025
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:42:49.025 --> 00:42:51.695
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:42:51.695 --> 00:42:54.575
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:42:54.915 --> 00:42:58.185
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:42:58.680 --> 00:43:03.630
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:43:04.290 --> 00:43:05.730
It works incredibly well.

00:43:05.730 --> 00:43:07.450
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:43:08.160 --> 00:43:08.910
Check it out.

00:43:09.590 --> 00:43:13.740
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:43:13.750 --> 00:43:17.120
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:43:17.120 --> 00:43:18.870
applied in schools, in homes.

00:43:19.070 --> 00:43:24.060
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:43:24.060 --> 00:43:25.600
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:43:26.955 --> 00:43:28.235
when they're not with you.

00:43:28.745 --> 00:43:32.185
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:43:32.545 --> 00:43:35.165
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:43:35.165 --> 00:43:39.165
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:43:39.195 --> 00:43:43.485
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:43:43.925 --> 00:43:47.265
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:43:47.285 --> 00:43:51.525
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:43:51.725 --> 00:43:56.015
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:43:56.015 --> 00:43:59.315
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:43:59.315 --> 00:44:02.410
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:44:02.650 --> 00:44:07.150
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:09.130
absolutely gives you this.

00:44:09.190 --> 00:44:10.960
Emma Hutchison: So, at the time, so again.

00:44:14.980 --> 00:44:16.630
These guys, it was unknown.

00:44:16.690 --> 00:44:18.490
Nobody really knew what was happening.

00:44:18.550 --> 00:44:22.330
All they knew that they were sending
more guys out and more guys were coming

00:44:22.330 --> 00:44:23.740
back with these horrific injuries.

00:44:24.370 --> 00:44:27.760
So at the time, Jay was told,
don't worry, we'll look after you.

00:44:28.220 --> 00:44:29.330
You'll always have a job.

00:44:30.350 --> 00:44:31.100
Don't worry about it.

00:44:31.100 --> 00:44:33.380
Because of course they didn't
wanna pile any further stress.

00:44:33.495 --> 00:44:36.105
They've all had these, they
all, a lot of these guys thought

00:44:36.140 --> 00:44:38.060
they were Korea military guys.

00:44:38.060 --> 00:44:39.950
They were going to be in the
military for their career.

00:44:39.950 --> 00:44:42.860
And suddenly this career
has been cut short.

00:44:43.340 --> 00:44:44.810
They didn't know what,
what they were gonna do.

00:44:44.810 --> 00:44:48.980
How are they going to finance their,
their families and all this sort of stuff.

00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:51.830
So, the, the military said, don't worry.

00:44:51.860 --> 00:44:54.260
We will, we will keep you in.

00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:57.170
The reality of that was two or
two or three leaders down the

00:44:57.170 --> 00:44:58.820
line, that's not gonna happen.

00:44:59.420 --> 00:45:02.510
So they were told, well, you,
you do have to transition out.

00:45:02.540 --> 00:45:06.140
There were various sort of funds
available, transition funds to help

00:45:06.140 --> 00:45:10.610
guys, but ultimately the ones that who
were, were no longer physically able to

00:45:10.610 --> 00:45:12.920
do their job, had to leave the military.

00:45:13.700 --> 00:45:16.910
So it was a big change because
I say I, I think a lot of these

00:45:16.910 --> 00:45:19.850
guys were left very angry.

00:45:19.850 --> 00:45:21.500
It wasn't a decision that they had made.

00:45:21.500 --> 00:45:22.910
They didn't want to leave the military.

00:45:23.580 --> 00:45:24.630
And they were forced to.

00:45:25.630 --> 00:45:30.580
And as it stands now, we still
work with serving military guys.

00:45:31.040 --> 00:45:36.060
And they have there are kind of recovery
offices within regimens and stuff.

00:45:36.120 --> 00:45:38.680
So if somebody is either has a.

00:45:39.955 --> 00:45:45.215
Or more often now is, is suffering
from sort of mental health issues.

00:45:45.755 --> 00:45:51.285
Then they have recovery officers
within their, those departments

00:45:51.555 --> 00:45:53.565
and they will work with them.

00:45:53.805 --> 00:45:57.555
And those recovery officers are
quite good now at looking out with

00:45:58.515 --> 00:46:03.585
and pointing serving personnel
to programs like ourselves.

00:46:03.945 --> 00:46:09.105
Or there's, there's some sailing programs
or there's yoga retreats or, so they

00:46:09.105 --> 00:46:13.945
have got, over the last 15 years got
so much better about using these more

00:46:13.945 --> 00:46:17.825
holistic wellbeing programs for them.

00:46:19.990 --> 00:46:23.795
Rupert Isaacson: But you are dealing
with people who are, as you say, in this

00:46:23.795 --> 00:46:28.175
transition obviously you are dealing
with serving military as well, but when,

00:46:28.265 --> 00:46:34.965
when people are in this situation where
a change is being forced upon them and

00:46:34.965 --> 00:46:38.385
they're wondering like, Jay was what's
going to be my place in the world?

00:46:38.715 --> 00:46:38.805
Mm-hmm.

00:46:38.975 --> 00:46:45.125
Now Jay was lucky of course that he
knew that when he met you all, that

00:46:45.125 --> 00:46:47.435
was gonna be a vocational step for him.

00:46:48.005 --> 00:46:51.815
Do you get other military who then
want to come and work with you?

00:46:52.235 --> 00:46:56.465
Have you then added them to your team
and what do you, you obviously you

00:46:56.465 --> 00:47:00.575
can't do that with everyone, so what.

00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:06.680
Do you guys do in terms of helping
people to look to the next stages?

00:47:07.970 --> 00:47:08.480
Emma Hutchison: I think so.

00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:13.760
So when the guys who are serving come
to us, they're either transitioning

00:47:13.820 --> 00:47:18.050
out or they are trying to get
themselves well enough to stay in.

00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:27.500
Now a lot of them will come here thinking
that they want to stay in because that's

00:47:27.500 --> 00:47:30.920
all they know and they're terrified
of going out into the civilian world.

00:47:31.650 --> 00:47:36.990
And then when they come here and they
meet some of the staff, hear some of the

00:47:36.990 --> 00:47:41.680
stories meet our mentors because we have
mentors on our military programs, have

00:47:41.680 --> 00:47:43.390
been through the whole process themselves.

00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:46.310
And we just kind of talk about these guys.

00:47:47.210 --> 00:47:50.930
They've all got amazing transferable
skills that they don't understand.

00:47:50.930 --> 00:47:55.280
They don't realize what they're capable,
what they've learned to, you know, some of

00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:59.390
these, the submariners, for example, are
crazy what they, engineering wise, they

00:47:59.390 --> 00:48:03.530
know, and yet they think, oh, but how am
I gonna get a job in the outside world?

00:48:03.590 --> 00:48:07.490
Well, of course you are your
highly intelligent, super talented,

00:48:07.940 --> 00:48:09.410
got all these qualifications.

00:48:09.410 --> 00:48:10.520
Of course you're gonna get a job.

00:48:10.520 --> 00:48:14.750
You just have to have that confidence
to go out there and sell yourself.

00:48:14.750 --> 00:48:16.310
And that's what these
guys are not good at.

00:48:16.340 --> 00:48:20.270
They don't the ones coming
to us generally, it's

00:48:20.270 --> 00:48:22.310
confidence, it's self-esteem.

00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:26.390
It's, it's, it's those kind of issues
that they just need to be, we kind of

00:48:26.390 --> 00:48:28.250
say that coming here is a reset button.

00:48:29.210 --> 00:48:32.660
And if by coming to us for a week
just allows them to, to put their

00:48:32.660 --> 00:48:37.730
life on hold and stop all, everything
that is spiraling outta control.

00:48:37.940 --> 00:48:42.630
The fact that they are in a recovery
program that they have been flagged

00:48:42.630 --> 00:48:45.690
up by a recovery officer, that people
do know that they've got mental health

00:48:45.690 --> 00:48:50.130
issues and they're still serving, that
in itself is a whole kind of issue.

00:48:50.730 --> 00:48:55.920
So come here, press that stop
button and don't think about that.

00:48:56.340 --> 00:49:02.070
Just be with these, these other people
who are going through the same thing.

00:49:02.580 --> 00:49:05.850
Everybody, again, you kind of sit
around the table and as Jay sort of

00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:09.570
touched on with a physical injury,
it's very easy for people to say, oh,

00:49:09.630 --> 00:49:13.260
I understand why you are here because
you know, you're, you're missing an arm

00:49:13.260 --> 00:49:14.400
or you're missing a leg, or whatever.

00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:19.410
It's, but when they sit around the table
and say, I dunno, I, I don't, I'm, I

00:49:19.525 --> 00:49:24.995
dunno if I'm allowed to be here because
I've just got PTD or I've only got this.

00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:30.270
And within 24 hours they stay
at a house because our military

00:49:30.270 --> 00:49:31.590
program is a residential program.

00:49:31.830 --> 00:49:34.680
They stay at the house and they,
they, part of the whole thing is that

00:49:34.680 --> 00:49:35.970
they have to cook meals together.

00:49:36.730 --> 00:49:38.320
And they have to say,
right, who's gonna cook?

00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:40.090
Who's gonna do the dishes,
who's gonna clean up?

00:49:40.140 --> 00:49:45.690
And these conversations are led
by our mentors and they just

00:49:45.690 --> 00:49:47.460
start to find out, well actually.

00:49:47.850 --> 00:49:49.800
I'm, this happened to me.

00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:51.960
Oh, enough, same thing.

00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:54.600
Something similar happened
to that person over there.

00:49:55.230 --> 00:50:01.260
So they are able to then, because
it's, for some reason they can't talk

00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:02.760
to families and friends about it.

00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:04.320
Military, they're a funny bunch.

00:50:04.830 --> 00:50:10.320
They, they just, you know, they keep
together, they keep closed up, but they

00:50:10.500 --> 00:50:14.340
can talk to each other about stuff that
they can't, us civilians and outsiders.

00:50:15.730 --> 00:50:19.845
So the, so the military programs
is residential because they

00:50:19.845 --> 00:50:21.105
come from the whole of the uk.

00:50:21.495 --> 00:50:22.875
So it had to be residential.

00:50:23.835 --> 00:50:26.025
It includes the horses,
which they do in the morning.

00:50:26.505 --> 00:50:28.035
It includes the other things.

00:50:28.035 --> 00:50:33.585
So the bushcraft, the photography, the
breath work, the archery, the Pilates.

00:50:33.585 --> 00:50:38.025
It includes all of those other activities
that we do in the afternoon because we

00:50:38.025 --> 00:50:40.665
have to do something in the afternoon
because they can't work with the horses

00:50:40.665 --> 00:50:45.435
all day and they can't go home because
they've come from Devon or whatever.

00:50:45.435 --> 00:50:49.365
So that's why we, we started off
doing these other activities.

00:50:49.735 --> 00:50:53.455
And then what we found is that in actual
fact, somebody does Pilates for the

00:50:53.455 --> 00:50:57.745
first time and then says, my goodness,
I'm gonna do this when I go home.

00:50:57.835 --> 00:51:00.715
So you've given them something that
they can then take home because

00:51:00.715 --> 00:51:04.315
we can't give them a horse to take
home, but they can take breath work

00:51:04.315 --> 00:51:08.455
or the archery or whatever it is,
and go, actually I'm try do that.

00:51:09.215 --> 00:51:09.455
So.

00:51:14.720 --> 00:51:19.100
Evening, sitting around the campfire,
talking to each other, cooking

00:51:19.130 --> 00:51:24.410
food together, opening up, having
the conversations and laughing.

00:51:24.560 --> 00:51:27.290
And the difference between when
these people arrive on the Monday

00:51:27.620 --> 00:51:30.710
with their kind of shoulders
down and their no eye contact.

00:51:30.710 --> 00:51:30.711
And,

00:51:32.900 --> 00:51:36.320
and then by Wednesday the shoulders have
started to lift the, you start to get

00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:41.270
the eye contact and then the whole yard
turns into this before and swearing and

00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:47.330
banter and, you know, the, the competition
between the Army guys and the Marines

00:51:47.330 --> 00:51:51.500
and the Navy and difference between
the tri services and things like that.

00:51:51.500 --> 00:51:53.120
It, it's just phenomenal.

00:51:53.850 --> 00:51:56.940
But as I say, it's a combination
of, of all of the stuff that

00:51:57.030 --> 00:51:58.500
goes into this course that works.

00:51:59.970 --> 00:52:01.800
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm
intrigued that you use photography.

00:52:02.520 --> 00:52:02.700
Mm.

00:52:02.730 --> 00:52:06.360
How did that evolve and what,
what do you observe that giving?

00:52:06.990 --> 00:52:08.820
Emma Hutchison: If I'm honest, we were
just looking for another activity.

00:52:09.120 --> 00:52:09.150
Mm.

00:52:10.170 --> 00:52:13.200
And we happened to have somebody
that was very good at photography

00:52:13.380 --> 00:52:15.360
and we've all got these phones.

00:52:16.110 --> 00:52:16.200
Yeah.

00:52:16.200 --> 00:52:16.800
Nobody knows.

00:52:17.040 --> 00:52:19.950
And they've all got these amazing
cameras in them and nobody knows

00:52:20.160 --> 00:52:23.580
you take a photograph, nobody
edits them or does anything.

00:52:24.060 --> 00:52:28.410
I was completely unaware of all the
things that I've got on my phone that

00:52:28.410 --> 00:52:30.120
I can do to improve the photographs.

00:52:30.540 --> 00:52:34.500
And so we literally had somebody
come and teach us our staff and run

00:52:34.500 --> 00:52:37.440
some sessions with the courses and
it was an absolute game changer.

00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:38.520
And some of the photographs

00:52:40.770 --> 00:52:41.370
phenomenal.

00:52:41.370 --> 00:52:42.030
So something.

00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:48.910
But has actually become quite
a popular other activity.

00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.370
Rupert Isaacson: Well, the reason
why that really intrigues me and as

00:52:52.370 --> 00:52:55.970
you know, like with movement method,
we have that, you know, as well as

00:52:55.970 --> 00:53:00.320
horse by method and ta So we're always
saying, don't just do horse stuff.

00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:01.070
It's not enough.

00:53:01.070 --> 00:53:04.970
You know, you've gotta, as you say,
send people home with other things.

00:53:05.690 --> 00:53:08.150
The photography that you're
talking about intrigues me because

00:53:08.260 --> 00:53:11.830
I can see how that's hunting.

00:53:11.830 --> 00:53:16.570
Its stealth and capture,
it's also perspective taking.

00:53:17.530 --> 00:53:21.730
You know, you have to look from outside
the situation into the situation.

00:53:22.390 --> 00:53:28.090
It's also changing the situation because
you can take an image and that image

00:53:28.090 --> 00:53:30.130
can also be emotional, internal, right?

00:53:30.790 --> 00:53:31.750
And then you can rewrite it.

00:53:31.810 --> 00:53:35.410
You can say, well actually no, I, I
think I'd like to edit that outcome.

00:53:36.170 --> 00:53:39.350
And I think there's a subliminal message
that can come with that, which is to

00:53:39.350 --> 00:53:41.930
say you can actually reedit your past.

00:53:41.935 --> 00:53:45.680
You, you, you don't have
to say, this is my story.

00:53:46.530 --> 00:53:51.420
If it's no longer serving you or if
it's too painful, you, you can work

00:53:51.420 --> 00:53:55.680
with that story and you can rewrite that
story and you can affect that story.

00:53:55.680 --> 00:53:59.040
And you, you can turn out 25
versions of that story with, you

00:53:59.040 --> 00:54:02.040
know, through different filters, all
of which serve different purposes.

00:54:02.040 --> 00:54:04.950
And I can, I could see how
even if you didn't make it.

00:54:05.520 --> 00:54:09.750
Explicit in the language when you
were talking through the photography

00:54:09.750 --> 00:54:12.660
skills, how that could come across.

00:54:13.200 --> 00:54:14.970
So when you said photography,
my ears pricked up.

00:54:14.970 --> 00:54:17.640
I was like, Ooh, I think I've
gotta nick that for our program.

00:54:17.860 --> 00:54:18.400
Thanks Emma.

00:54:18.640 --> 00:54:19.180
Because it's

00:54:19.720 --> 00:54:22.420
Emma Hutchison: really simple because
you just go to wherever and we do, we

00:54:22.420 --> 00:54:25.540
take them into the woods or we take them
down to the, the stream or something

00:54:25.540 --> 00:54:27.100
and just say, well, what do you see?

00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:31.390
And they, everybody sees different
things and you'll get, some of them

00:54:31.390 --> 00:54:35.080
will be lying on the ground, taking
a photograph of a stone or a leaf.

00:54:35.080 --> 00:54:39.880
Somebody else is talk, reaching up as tall
as they can to take things in the trees.

00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:43.390
Or somebody's seen a rabbit
or a stone or whatever it is.

00:54:43.390 --> 00:54:47.080
Everybody sees the same thing differently.

00:54:48.080 --> 00:54:50.540
And so you come back with all these
amazing photographs from literally

00:54:50.540 --> 00:54:53.120
just standing in a small area.

00:54:53.900 --> 00:54:55.280
Rupert Isaacson: Have you,
have you collected some of

00:54:55.280 --> 00:54:56.240
these photographs together?

00:54:56.240 --> 00:54:58.520
Do you publish any of them
or exhibit any of them?

00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.190
Emma Hutchison: Our to-do thing,
we keep saying we must do it.

00:55:01.650 --> 00:55:03.180
We have got some great photos.

00:55:03.390 --> 00:55:03.480
I

00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:04.770
Rupert Isaacson: wanna
go to that exhibition.

00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:05.160
Yeah,

00:55:05.745 --> 00:55:06.035
Emma Hutchison: yeah.

00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:07.620
No, we must do that actually.

00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:10.920
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I was thinking
you could even make that in your arena,

00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:13.070
like, constantly changing art exhibition.

00:55:13.460 --> 00:55:13.640
Yeah.

00:55:13.670 --> 00:55:18.500
Rupert Isaacson: You know, of like every
few months you perhaps change, change it,

00:55:18.500 --> 00:55:23.270
and then you could publish and sell those,
those those images images of transition.

00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:23.870
I love it.

00:55:24.680 --> 00:55:28.340
Note to self, have this conversation
further with Emma and let's

00:55:28.340 --> 00:55:29.540
see what we can come up with.

00:55:30.770 --> 00:55:32.240
It's so inventive what you're doing.

00:55:32.240 --> 00:55:32.780
I love it.

00:55:32.990 --> 00:55:36.800
Okay, so you don't, of course
just work with military.

00:55:37.220 --> 00:55:41.340
You've pivoted to schools,
you've pivoted to adult mental

00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:42.630
health and that sort of thing.

00:55:43.200 --> 00:55:45.420
What precipitated that change?

00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:48.300
Because I, again, I know quite a
lot of programs that are veterans

00:55:48.970 --> 00:55:52.840
programs or first responders programs
that really stick very much with that

00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:57.430
population because it is a fairly
specific set of experiences that

00:55:57.430 --> 00:55:58.480
have brought those people there.

00:55:58.780 --> 00:56:02.590
Again, I was really intrigued when I ran
across your program saying, but hold on,

00:56:02.620 --> 00:56:04.840
they're doing all these other things too.

00:56:05.140 --> 00:56:05.860
How did that evolve?

00:56:07.750 --> 00:56:09.700
Emma Hutchison: So we started
with the military for the

00:56:09.700 --> 00:56:10.930
reasons that I've spoken about.

00:56:11.330 --> 00:56:15.590
We are a charity, we
have to bring in funds.

00:56:16.350 --> 00:56:19.740
And around about those times when
we started, there was funding

00:56:19.740 --> 00:56:22.890
for military programs because
everybody felt this affinity with

00:56:22.890 --> 00:56:23.790
what the guys were going through.

00:56:24.510 --> 00:56:28.920
About five years into it, we were
talking to one of the guys from the,

00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:34.890
the lead military charities and he
said, you have to get all of your eggs

00:56:34.890 --> 00:56:39.480
outta this basket because this, this
pot of funding that there is at the

00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:41.460
moment is not gonna be there forever.

00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:44.910
And it is, it disappear quickly.

00:56:45.060 --> 00:56:46.320
So you need to.

00:56:49.720 --> 00:56:53.260
And coincidentally at the same time as
this happened, we were approached by

00:56:53.260 --> 00:56:57.530
the headmaster of one of the secondary
schools up here who said, I have

00:56:57.530 --> 00:57:02.900
got a group of 15-year-old boys and
we don't know what to do with them.

00:57:03.410 --> 00:57:05.660
They are just absolutely outta control.

00:57:05.660 --> 00:57:06.650
We dunno what to do with them.

00:57:07.190 --> 00:57:08.570
Can we send them up to you?

00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:12.110
So I kind of did that and
whatever, and of course the boys

00:57:12.110 --> 00:57:13.490
said, absolutely send them here.

00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:20.000
So we had this group of, of boys and they
were fundamentally lacking some sort of

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:23.390
alpha male input into their lives, really.

00:57:23.750 --> 00:57:28.100
And one thing we do have here is
quite a lot of alpha male energy.

00:57:28.100 --> 00:57:28.430
Yes, you

00:57:28.430 --> 00:57:28.700
Rupert Isaacson: do.

00:57:28.820 --> 00:57:29.870
I've been up that.

00:57:30.530 --> 00:57:30.800
Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

00:57:31.040 --> 00:57:32.005
So, which is

00:57:32.005 --> 00:57:35.800
Rupert Isaacson: unusual in a therapeutic
riding at equine assisted, you know, unit.

00:57:35.830 --> 00:57:39.430
'cause normally it's,
you know, 90, 95% female.

00:57:40.030 --> 00:57:40.240
Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

00:57:41.170 --> 00:57:44.440
So they sent these guys up here, and
again, it was absolutely transformational.

00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:49.480
The, the boys were given some
boundaries, given some rules.

00:57:50.290 --> 00:57:54.880
They were given some consequences
if they reacted or didn't do what

00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:57.910
they were asked to do in a very,
you know, polite way or whatever.

00:57:58.180 --> 00:58:00.490
They were told to run around
the arena three times.

00:58:01.210 --> 00:58:04.870
And they soon, it sounds like
terrible bootcamp, doesn't it?

00:58:04.990 --> 00:58:09.820
But it, it was just, they hadn't
experienced anything like that before.

00:58:10.420 --> 00:58:11.750
And, after a few hours.

00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:12.380
They loved it.

00:58:12.380 --> 00:58:14.420
They loved that kind of release of energy.

00:58:14.750 --> 00:58:18.530
When we work with the schools groups,
the first hour that we do with the

00:58:18.530 --> 00:58:20.810
schools groups is not in a classroom.

00:58:20.810 --> 00:58:21.890
It's not with the horses.

00:58:21.980 --> 00:58:24.320
It's basically dependent on the weather.

00:58:24.350 --> 00:58:26.060
If it's raining, it's in the indoor arena.

00:58:26.120 --> 00:58:28.970
If it's not, it's in the outdoor
arena and we build obstacle

00:58:28.970 --> 00:58:30.230
courses and we play around it.

00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:34.370
So for the first hour that
they're hear the phones go into

00:58:34.370 --> 00:58:35.810
a box that they're taken away.

00:58:35.810 --> 00:58:39.410
And these kids literally, they
have to move because again,

00:58:39.740 --> 00:58:41.000
children are not active enough

00:58:41.450 --> 00:58:41.660
these days.

00:58:41.660 --> 00:58:42.230
Yeah, I agree.

00:58:42.230 --> 00:58:44.720
Emma Hutchison: They'll moan and
groan and whatever, but again, by day

00:58:44.720 --> 00:58:46.160
two, they're absolutely loving it.

00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:49.710
And you find out all sorts of things
about somebody who's actually really

00:58:49.710 --> 00:58:53.010
accurate with a round of bat and
somebody else can catch really well

00:58:53.010 --> 00:58:54.510
and somebody else can run really fast.

00:58:54.630 --> 00:58:56.850
And yeah.

00:58:57.300 --> 00:59:01.570
Rupert Isaacson: When you say that they,
the lads, your ex-military team, and I'd

00:59:01.570 --> 00:59:05.890
like to talk, I'd like you to talk to
us a bit more about who you team are.

00:59:06.010 --> 00:59:09.400
Obviously we've met Jay, but I've
met some of your other team too.

00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:12.940
And I, I think it would be helpful for
listeners if you could introduce them

00:59:13.450 --> 00:59:16.540
when they said, okay, go run around the
arena three times, you know, of course

00:59:16.570 --> 00:59:18.820
some teenage boys might say, what f you?

00:59:19.630 --> 00:59:23.860
And then of course it is not the
military, so you can't actually follow

00:59:23.860 --> 00:59:25.660
up with any physical consequences.

00:59:26.020 --> 00:59:33.700
So what did you just find that
simply taking that approach.

00:59:35.575 --> 00:59:39.955
Was accepted by those boys because there
was actually this sort of need for it.

00:59:39.955 --> 00:59:43.225
And the boys themselves, somewhere
from within knew that they needed

00:59:43.225 --> 00:59:47.095
that or because, because that's
a risk to take, isn't it, to say,

00:59:47.605 --> 00:59:50.995
okay, here's the consequence, run
around the arena three times, or

00:59:50.995 --> 00:59:52.465
give me 20 press up or something.

00:59:52.495 --> 00:59:54.385
And then the person says, well,
no, I'm not gonna do that.

00:59:54.505 --> 00:59:58.015
And then you haven't really
got much to follow it up with.

00:59:58.975 --> 01:00:01.435
So it's a, it's an
interesting risk to take.

01:00:01.435 --> 01:00:01.645
Yeah.

01:00:01.645 --> 01:00:03.775
So just talk to us a
little bit about that.

01:00:04.110 --> 01:00:05.600
Emma Hutchison: This is
where Jay is an expert.

01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:09.815
I have fallen to this a couple
of times where I have sort of

01:00:09.815 --> 01:00:13.305
said there was one incident when
we had, again, a particularly

01:00:13.305 --> 01:00:15.105
difficult group of teenagers here.

01:00:15.405 --> 01:00:18.425
And we were all sat around the
you've got a kind of fire pit kind of

01:00:18.425 --> 01:00:19.805
thing with a parachute over the top.

01:00:19.985 --> 01:00:24.845
We sat there having a chat in the morning
and this kid was just constantly talking

01:00:24.845 --> 01:00:30.035
and on his phone and I said, I'd really
like you to move because I'd like you to

01:00:30.035 --> 01:00:34.085
move over there so that you're not next
to, and he looked at me and he looked

01:00:34.085 --> 01:00:39.005
at me and he looked at me and I thought,
oh no, this is gonna go horribly wrong.

01:00:39.005 --> 01:00:39.845
It's not gonna move.

01:00:40.145 --> 01:00:43.865
And about 20 sort of 30 seconds,
we had this sort of eye contact.

01:00:43.990 --> 01:00:48.365
And then my heart was going, and then
he suddenly stood up and he moved

01:00:48.365 --> 01:00:51.291
and he went and sat down and my heart
kind of went down and I relaxed and

01:00:51.291 --> 01:00:53.255
thought, I've got away with that.

01:00:53.255 --> 01:00:54.875
But I came back to Jay and said, oh.

01:00:56.345 --> 01:00:59.345
Said Emma never do that
without a playing plan B.

01:00:59.405 --> 01:01:01.085
And I said, well, what
would plan B have been?

01:01:01.145 --> 01:01:04.115
He said, you'd have left him sitting
there and you move everybody else.

01:01:05.465 --> 01:01:09.875
So Jay has these plans when he's
working with the kids because he's

01:01:09.875 --> 01:01:14.255
generally the one that works with them
in that environment where if somebody

01:01:14.255 --> 01:01:17.435
doesn't want to do something, well
everybody else will move somewhere else.

01:01:17.435 --> 01:01:21.120
And then that person is where they
are, but now they're not with their,

01:01:21.260 --> 01:01:23.495
all their friends in their little
gang because their friends in their

01:01:23.495 --> 01:01:24.815
little gang have moved somewhere else.

01:01:24.845 --> 01:01:27.815
So then they want to be where
you want to be, so they're gonna

01:01:27.815 --> 01:01:29.735
do what you ask them to do.

01:01:30.095 --> 01:01:33.065
So it's not by force
or anything like that.

01:01:33.065 --> 01:01:36.335
It's by not mind games even.

01:01:36.335 --> 01:01:41.175
It's just clever skills that, I dunno
where he got 'em from, but yeah, he's got

01:01:41.235 --> 01:01:46.125
these things all in his little toolbox
that he can manage to assess any situation

01:01:46.125 --> 01:01:51.285
and, and get these kids to do this
without realizing that they're doing it

01:01:52.785 --> 01:01:53.205
Rupert Isaacson: interest.

01:01:53.205 --> 01:01:54.075
So interesting to me.

01:01:54.355 --> 01:01:54.715
Okay.

01:01:54.715 --> 01:01:56.635
Talk to us a little bit about the
other members of the team now.

01:01:56.635 --> 01:01:58.135
I met taf for example.

01:01:58.535 --> 01:01:59.675
When I came up, I met Jock.

01:01:59.675 --> 01:02:02.975
Jock wasn't as around as I would've liked.

01:02:02.975 --> 01:02:05.585
So I, I didn't get a lot of time
with him when I was with you.

01:02:05.585 --> 01:02:09.845
But I could see, you know, extremely,
extremely charismatic man with bringing

01:02:09.845 --> 01:02:11.465
his own ex-military experience.

01:02:11.465 --> 01:02:13.205
Just talk us through a little
bit the team you've got.

01:02:13.205 --> 01:02:17.105
'cause it really is unusual
to find such a male.

01:02:18.245 --> 01:02:20.015
Presence in an equine assisted team.

01:02:21.215 --> 01:02:25.605
Emma Hutchison: So Jock, my husband
so he basically was a Royal Marine

01:02:25.605 --> 01:02:29.125
commando and a helicopter pilot
in the military for 10 years.

01:02:29.905 --> 01:02:34.165
So he also has had a passion
for horses since he was a child.

01:02:34.885 --> 01:02:37.855
He has a DHD.

01:02:38.335 --> 01:02:41.575
He can't sit still for
more than 15 minutes.

01:02:42.295 --> 01:02:43.255
That's on a good day.

01:02:43.885 --> 01:02:49.885
He is absolutely passionate about this
type of work, about helping people.

01:02:49.885 --> 01:02:53.395
He's been through his own kind of mental
health issues and so feels really empathy

01:02:53.395 --> 01:02:54.685
for those that are going through it.

01:02:55.345 --> 01:03:02.555
And he, his huge skill is being
able to connect with people on that.

01:03:02.555 --> 01:03:06.635
First, they come up the drive and
you've got him in his cowboy hat

01:03:06.635 --> 01:03:10.385
and his chaps and his horse kind of
saying, hi, come with me and I'll

01:03:10.385 --> 01:03:13.025
just talk to you about me and my horse
and the relationship that we have.

01:03:13.445 --> 01:03:18.845
And he's able to, within that 45
minutes to an hour, be able to get

01:03:18.845 --> 01:03:23.705
somebody to say, wow, this is, this
is a place that I want to come to.

01:03:24.215 --> 01:03:28.925
I understand that I, I too
could have a relationship with

01:03:28.925 --> 01:03:30.545
a horse and with another person.

01:03:30.545 --> 01:03:38.945
And I, I, I do it annoyingly
with, with anybody who here.

01:03:41.495 --> 01:03:44.795
Whether it's autistic kids, whether
it's military guys, whether it's

01:03:44.975 --> 01:03:49.145
Wi Ladies, whether the whole, he,
they come and they just think that

01:03:49.145 --> 01:03:50.915
Jock is the best thing since Slice.

01:03:51.635 --> 01:03:56.675
He then hands them over to us and
it is almost like his, his bit, his

01:03:56.675 --> 01:04:01.525
kind of showmanship, which is his his
main kind of role is, is, is done.

01:04:02.015 --> 01:04:04.685
And then we, so we kind of wheel
him in and wheel him out as and as

01:04:04.685 --> 01:04:07.355
and when he's needed because he's
amazing for these other things.

01:04:07.355 --> 01:04:11.015
But again, the energy with Jock can
be quite high because that's what

01:04:11.015 --> 01:04:13.985
he's, so as I say, we have to wheel
him in and then wheel him back.

01:04:14.675 --> 01:04:18.995
But again, he does all the PR stuff and
the marketing stuff and things like that.

01:04:19.605 --> 01:04:21.315
And he's a very good ideas person.

01:04:21.705 --> 01:04:23.925
So he'll come up with
these, what about this?

01:04:23.925 --> 01:04:25.155
Why don't we speak to these people?

01:04:25.155 --> 01:04:31.485
What about this, what about, and, and most
of the ideas you say, no, but every now

01:04:31.485 --> 01:04:34.605
and then there's, there's one that you
go, Hmm, naturally if we put that thought

01:04:34.720 --> 01:04:37.365
into that, we could work with that.

01:04:38.565 --> 01:04:40.035
So that's, that's him.

01:04:40.735 --> 01:04:45.535
We then have ta who runs our, it
was the Princess Trust program.

01:04:45.865 --> 01:04:47.065
It's now the King's Trust.

01:04:47.455 --> 01:04:51.395
So that's our Youth 12 week youth
development program where it's

01:04:51.395 --> 01:04:56.215
for 16 to 25 year olds and they
come here for 12 solid weeks.

01:04:56.665 --> 01:04:59.245
And throughout that time,
they work with the horses.

01:04:59.545 --> 01:05:01.855
They do all the other activities
that I've already mentioned.

01:05:02.365 --> 01:05:07.425
They have a week where they do, they
go out and do adventurous activities.

01:05:07.425 --> 01:05:12.185
So they, we hire e-bikes for
them and we make them e-bike up

01:05:12.185 --> 01:05:13.625
some hills and things like that.

01:05:13.655 --> 01:05:16.875
They do river walks, they do camp out.

01:05:17.685 --> 01:05:23.355
Which bizarrely bearing in mind that
we live in Aberdeen, she, a lot of

01:05:23.355 --> 01:05:28.245
these kids have never stayed away
from home or let alone camped out.

01:05:29.175 --> 01:05:32.355
So it's a huge deal for a lot of
these kids to go away on this.

01:05:32.355 --> 01:05:34.035
And it, this is a residential week apart.

01:05:34.065 --> 01:05:36.135
12 weeks is a residential program.

01:05:36.625 --> 01:05:41.355
They do work experience, they do
I do that a community project.

01:05:41.355 --> 01:05:45.445
So one of the community projects was they
went around one of the local estates and

01:05:45.445 --> 01:05:50.525
they cleaned all of these old a hundred
year old well rest and be thankful things.

01:05:50.765 --> 01:05:53.375
So when the old Drovers used to
bring the cattle and the sheep

01:05:53.885 --> 01:05:58.015
along, they would, they have these
rest and be thankful water things.

01:05:58.015 --> 01:05:59.635
So they cleaned all those
for community project.

01:05:59.695 --> 01:06:00.655
They cleaned a load of tracks.

01:06:01.165 --> 01:06:04.165
So it's an amazing project that they do.

01:06:04.225 --> 01:06:08.155
Path is retired officially
from the military.

01:06:08.905 --> 01:06:10.195
He's in his early sixties.

01:06:10.375 --> 01:06:12.835
He was in the military for 40 odd years.

01:06:13.565 --> 01:06:14.220
Rupert Isaacson: What did he do?

01:06:15.335 --> 01:06:18.335
Emma Hutchison: He was in the
pioneers, so he was, he was in

01:06:18.335 --> 01:06:20.260
as a noncommissioned officer to.

01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:24.200
And then ended up

01:06:24.680 --> 01:06:26.450
Rupert Isaacson: to ask you about
who the pioneers are because I,

01:06:26.450 --> 01:06:28.970
that's quite an interesting branch
of the British military, which I

01:06:28.970 --> 01:06:32.570
think a lot of American listeners
and some would not be familiar with,

01:06:34.070 --> 01:06:35.480
Emma Hutchison: I think I'm
not a great expert on this, but

01:06:35.480 --> 01:06:36.800
they basically build things.

01:06:37.340 --> 01:06:42.190
So if you go somewhere and you need a
bridge build tool, something, whatever,

01:06:42.190 --> 01:06:45.340
the pioneers of the people that go
in with the expertise to build the

01:06:45.340 --> 01:06:47.560
bridge to get the tanks over, right.

01:06:48.730 --> 01:06:50.530
So, he's a really charismatic guy.

01:06:50.530 --> 01:06:57.000
He, the last few years that he was
in, he worked at the OTC, which is

01:06:57.000 --> 01:06:59.790
the young officers in the university.

01:06:59.790 --> 01:07:01.920
So working with young, young people again.

01:07:02.500 --> 01:07:06.040
And he now runs this program and
he's absolutely amazing at it.

01:07:06.040 --> 01:07:06.100
Yeah.

01:07:07.220 --> 01:07:10.550
So you have taf, you have Joanne,
who's our admin lady who again

01:07:10.550 --> 01:07:13.010
is married to an ex Navy pilot.

01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:15.050
So again, you've got the
Navy connection there.

01:07:15.600 --> 01:07:19.020
And then you have my daughter,
Charlotte, who you know, support

01:07:19.020 --> 01:07:22.500
you through and through, she's
done a psychology degree, so she's

01:07:22.890 --> 01:07:25.260
interested in, in all that side of it.

01:07:25.320 --> 01:07:29.310
And then we've got Georgia, who
is one of our school leavers.

01:07:29.310 --> 01:07:33.510
So she came on one of our schools
programs about four years ago.

01:07:33.900 --> 01:07:38.400
She then came here on work experience and
she's now employed as a, as a yard person.

01:07:39.135 --> 01:07:39.825
She's amazing.

01:07:40.185 --> 01:07:44.355
And then we've got some guys down
south who, again, more ex-military

01:07:44.355 --> 01:07:48.585
guys who when we are running programs
elsewhere, or they'll come up and

01:07:48.585 --> 01:07:50.265
be involved in the, the program.

01:07:50.265 --> 01:07:50.595
Are is,

01:07:50.685 --> 01:07:52.725
Rupert Isaacson: are these the people
that you refer to as your mentors?

01:07:53.295 --> 01:07:53.625
Emma Hutchison: No.

01:07:53.715 --> 01:07:55.395
So these, that's our kind of southern team

01:07:55.785 --> 01:07:56.205
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:07:56.205 --> 01:07:56.235
Are

01:07:57.135 --> 01:08:01.995
Emma Hutchison: basically people who have
been through the program and then we have

01:08:01.995 --> 01:08:08.355
recognized certain skills with them and
thought, Hmm, that's somebody that will

01:08:08.355 --> 01:08:10.365
be amazing as a mentor for other people.

01:08:10.575 --> 01:08:13.945
So we then put them on a mentors
and an additional program that Jay's

01:08:13.945 --> 01:08:17.245
put together and they come up here
and they, they given, you know,

01:08:17.245 --> 01:08:20.010
things about boundaries and, and
sort of additional skills to help.

01:08:20.125 --> 01:08:20.275
And

01:08:20.275 --> 01:08:23.125
Rupert Isaacson: these would be people
who transitioned out of the military

01:08:23.695 --> 01:08:25.495
exactly as we were talking about earlier.

01:08:26.065 --> 01:08:29.425
Gone through that identity crisis
and then have come out on the other

01:08:29.425 --> 01:08:32.965
side of it and have created careers
and lives in the civilian world.

01:08:33.565 --> 01:08:36.955
Emma Hutchison: So they have all been
through huge, huge processes themselves.

01:08:37.735 --> 01:08:41.380
So they have got the empathy, but as
you say, they have, they still, they,

01:08:41.455 --> 01:08:44.185
they would all quite happily admit
that they're still on their journey.

01:08:44.845 --> 01:08:48.205
I think we're all on some sort of
journey, but they all happily say,

01:08:48.205 --> 01:08:52.895
well, you know, some of them are
working others are, are not working.

01:08:53.265 --> 01:08:57.375
We've got John, who is 79,
he's an ex Royal Marine.

01:08:57.375 --> 01:09:00.375
He is the fittest,
79-year-old you will ever see.

01:09:00.705 --> 01:09:01.605
And he's amazing.

01:09:01.605 --> 01:09:02.685
And he said, this is what.

01:09:04.905 --> 01:09:09.615
He up here four or five times a
year, and he's just brilliant.

01:09:10.005 --> 01:09:13.785
So they're kind of like, you know, mom
and dad at the house dependent on age.

01:09:14.595 --> 01:09:18.175
Rupert Isaacson: But that's such a clever
way to organize because I think a lot

01:09:18.235 --> 01:09:25.705
of organizations like ours that, you
know, the manpower thing is, is massively

01:09:25.705 --> 01:09:30.175
tricky because it's, you know, humans are
expensive and also entirely necessary.

01:09:30.175 --> 01:09:30.235
Yeah.

01:09:30.685 --> 01:09:35.305
And then you don't
always have so much work

01:09:37.675 --> 01:09:38.755
for the whole team.

01:09:39.475 --> 01:09:42.565
So to have these people that, you
know, are adjunct, that come in

01:09:42.565 --> 01:09:45.715
and come out who've also graduated
through your program, I think

01:09:45.715 --> 01:09:49.315
there's actually a lot that a lot of
listeners could learn from with that.

01:09:49.315 --> 01:09:53.095
Because one of the, as you can
imagine, I go around doing a lot of

01:09:53.095 --> 01:10:00.255
trainings and one of the things I
hear regularly is I haven't got the

01:10:00.255 --> 01:10:04.635
capacity, the human capacity for the
amount of work I need to do, or that

01:10:04.635 --> 01:10:10.545
is coming in and I can't yet fundraise
for all those full-time salaries.

01:10:10.545 --> 01:10:14.805
And, you know, I can't necessarily
hire those full-time salaries

01:10:15.285 --> 01:10:17.625
until I know that those people are.

01:10:18.900 --> 01:10:21.990
Worth, you know, able to fully
integrate into this program because,

01:10:22.290 --> 01:10:25.530
you know, and then they might be out
on a limb geographically like you are.

01:10:25.630 --> 01:10:28.540
So that, you know, the equivalent in
the USA, they might be in the mountains

01:10:28.540 --> 01:10:31.730
of Colorado or they might be, you know,
some of the places we have in Ireland.

01:10:32.120 --> 01:10:35.870
And there's a difficulty because
people then have to relocate from

01:10:36.200 --> 01:10:37.670
somewhere else to do that job.

01:10:37.670 --> 01:10:40.580
And then you're taking a big risk,
you're taking a punt on that person.

01:10:40.580 --> 01:10:44.600
And if it doesn't work out for whatever
reason, so much has been invested and they

01:10:44.600 --> 01:10:49.250
have had to do so many life changes to get
themselves up to Northern Scotland or, you

01:10:49.250 --> 01:10:53.420
know, find a job, find, find, find a place
to live and to, if it doesn't work out.

01:10:53.420 --> 01:10:58.320
But, so your idea of, of people coming in
and out in, in this sort of mentor role

01:10:58.320 --> 01:11:05.370
and also having a sort of team that's down
south where the big populations are that

01:11:05.370 --> 01:11:10.740
can then seasonally if you like, bring
people to and front, I think that's really

01:11:10.740 --> 01:11:14.610
inventive and you might underestimate
yourselves a little bit there.

01:11:15.070 --> 01:11:20.140
I think there's a lot that many of
us running these programs could learn

01:11:20.140 --> 01:11:22.390
from you all in how you organize that.

01:11:22.570 --> 01:11:24.580
How did you come up with that concept?

01:11:24.580 --> 01:11:26.080
Because it's, it's quite original.

01:11:27.100 --> 01:11:31.190
Emma Hutchison: We because of
the vulnerability of the military

01:11:31.190 --> 01:11:35.150
guys and because they were still
serving, we were basically taking

01:11:35.750 --> 01:11:41.690
a group of guys, putting them into
a, into a house, and I, I am Mrs.

01:11:41.690 --> 01:11:45.770
Health and Safety, I had real concerns
about, you know, a lot of these guys

01:11:45.770 --> 01:11:53.030
mentally were just fragile and I wasn't
happy about putting them in a house

01:11:53.030 --> 01:11:54.860
without some sort of supervision.

01:11:55.190 --> 01:11:58.505
So initially when we started, we would
have a, a member staff stay in the

01:11:58.505 --> 01:12:02.060
house with them and it just didn't work
because they felt that they were being

01:12:02.330 --> 01:12:02.450
Yeah,

01:12:02.960 --> 01:12:06.530
Emma Hutchison: constantly And you know,
tail been told and all this sort of stuff.

01:12:07.040 --> 01:12:11.360
And so again, it, it, we, we just got
some great people who came on the court

01:12:11.660 --> 01:12:17.120
courses early on and just said, look, how
do you feel about if we, if we are, we're

01:12:17.120 --> 01:12:18.290
always there at the end of the phone.

01:12:18.680 --> 01:12:21.470
If something happens, then
we're at the end of the phone.

01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:26.630
How do you feel about going in as
the person who meets and greets?

01:12:26.630 --> 01:12:30.710
So, the mentor's always there because our
program runs on a on a Monday morning,

01:12:31.070 --> 01:12:34.790
but everybody flies up, drives up,
drive, whatever it is on the Sunday.

01:12:35.090 --> 01:12:38.570
So they have that first awful night in
the house where they don't know anybody.

01:12:38.570 --> 01:12:41.060
They don't know what they're going
to do because they've got this vague

01:12:41.720 --> 01:12:44.270
sort of story of what horseback
does, but they still don't really

01:12:44.270 --> 01:12:45.320
know what they're coming to.

01:12:45.710 --> 01:12:47.960
They might be hundreds
of miles away from home.

01:12:48.200 --> 01:12:52.220
They're extremely anxious and
they're met by one of our mentors

01:12:52.220 --> 01:12:53.900
who say, hi, it's great to see you.

01:12:53.930 --> 01:12:56.960
I've made some Nathan, I've
got chili on the whatever.

01:12:57.320 --> 01:13:00.110
But they already, they have
these group chats beforehand.

01:13:00.455 --> 01:13:03.635
So they already start to get to
know each other and interact and has

01:13:03.635 --> 01:13:05.340
anybody got any diet requirements?

01:13:05.340 --> 01:13:07.205
Have you got any favorite recipes?

01:13:07.475 --> 01:13:11.075
Do you need to bring a soft pillow or
any of these kind of things to make them

01:13:11.075 --> 01:13:12.785
start to feel a little bit comfortable.

01:13:13.115 --> 01:13:14.645
You know, are you army or you navy?

01:13:14.645 --> 01:13:16.445
Are you the same regimen
as me or whatever?

01:13:17.025 --> 01:13:19.455
And then the mentor meets them
on the door and says, look

01:13:19.455 --> 01:13:20.745
mate, I've been where you were.

01:13:21.405 --> 01:13:22.245
I was anxious.

01:13:22.245 --> 01:13:24.885
I was the one who, who didn't want
to go up the drive, who didn't wanna

01:13:24.885 --> 01:13:27.885
get outta the car, who was terrified
to come here and nearly didn't get on

01:13:27.885 --> 01:13:29.475
the plane, but you've made it here.

01:13:29.475 --> 01:13:30.345
That's the first step.

01:13:30.915 --> 01:13:31.545
Come on in.

01:13:32.275 --> 01:13:35.515
And the thing is, again, about
the military dependent on which

01:13:35.575 --> 01:13:40.795
army you were in, you call a cup
of tea, a wet or a something else.

01:13:40.825 --> 01:13:45.475
There's this camaraderie that they
instantly have that Oh, I, I was in the,

01:13:45.655 --> 01:13:47.725
I dunno, I get very confused by all.

01:13:48.205 --> 01:13:50.035
So they, they have this instant, they'll

01:13:50.035 --> 01:13:51.175
Rupert Isaacson: have
their private languages.

01:13:51.175 --> 01:13:52.375
Yeah, tribal languages.

01:13:52.465 --> 01:13:52.555
And

01:13:52.555 --> 01:13:54.925
Emma Hutchison: they always
know somebody who knows somebody

01:13:54.925 --> 01:13:56.545
who's dad knew somebody.

01:13:56.545 --> 01:14:00.235
It's absolutely nuts that everybody
on every single course has always

01:14:00.235 --> 01:14:03.325
got somebody who's known, somebody
who's known somebody kind of thing.

01:14:03.655 --> 01:14:07.675
So by the time they come to us on
that Monday morning, they go off

01:14:07.675 --> 01:14:08.965
and get a cup of tea in the kitchen.

01:14:08.965 --> 01:14:11.425
We bring the mentors in
and say, right, how was it?

01:14:11.485 --> 01:14:14.665
And they've already sussed everybody
out and they can say, oh, you know,

01:14:14.665 --> 01:14:16.345
he's, he needs to be, he's a bit quiet.

01:14:16.345 --> 01:14:18.565
We need to just bring him forward.

01:14:18.745 --> 01:14:23.545
And that helps me because I very
quickly have to allocate the horses

01:14:23.995 --> 01:14:26.395
for that first day from quite a.

01:14:27.925 --> 01:14:29.905
Knowledge because again, the
knowledge that you get on

01:14:29.905 --> 01:14:32.605
the phone and the application
forms is, is irrelevant really.

01:14:32.635 --> 01:14:38.015
So it's that the feedback that I get
from the mentors and then literally

01:14:38.015 --> 01:14:42.635
just that first kind of bit around the
table and having that first cup of tea.

01:14:42.635 --> 01:14:44.435
And I'd say it is amazing though.

01:14:44.435 --> 01:14:47.915
Rarely do I get it wrong with the,
the horses and we have to change them.

01:14:47.915 --> 01:14:51.275
You can generally suss people
out because they're, they're most

01:14:51.275 --> 01:14:54.515
vulnerable then, and then they, it,
it's really apparent what they need.

01:14:55.475 --> 01:14:56.945
Even if they're trying to mask it.

01:14:56.945 --> 01:15:00.845
You can see, well this, this is
somebody who needs to be more confident

01:15:00.845 --> 01:15:02.225
and stand up and be more assertive.

01:15:02.225 --> 01:15:05.855
So I'm gonna give them poll because
poll is a big old co and you know,

01:15:05.855 --> 01:15:08.435
if you're not assertive with her,
she's gonna drag you over the field

01:15:08.435 --> 01:15:09.875
to get the long bit of grasp thing.

01:15:10.775 --> 01:15:11.135
So

01:15:12.880 --> 01:15:17.255
Rupert Isaacson: do, do you feel that
that's a system that you could train

01:15:17.255 --> 01:15:23.765
other equine assisted groups in and how to
identify, find and deploy these mentors?

01:15:24.545 --> 01:15:26.405
'cause I think this is, this is
something that sort of hasn't

01:15:26.405 --> 01:15:27.395
occurred to a lot of people.

01:15:27.725 --> 01:15:27.935
Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

01:15:27.935 --> 01:15:28.925
And we've got mentors.

01:15:29.255 --> 01:15:31.955
We have got mentors course that Jay's
put together, which is actually an

01:15:31.955 --> 01:15:36.280
sqa Scottish Qualifications Authority
qualification where it can be so they

01:15:36.285 --> 01:15:38.795
can come and get an actual qualification.

01:15:38.915 --> 01:15:43.205
But the thing is with them, we
are really grateful to them and

01:15:43.205 --> 01:15:44.675
we really grateful to because

01:15:47.190 --> 01:15:47.540
right.

01:15:52.220 --> 01:15:54.500
Emma Hutchison: They don't wanna
be away from, they love coming

01:15:54.500 --> 01:15:57.830
to horseback, horseback, they are
part of the horseback family one.

01:15:57.860 --> 01:15:59.690
We always kind of joke, you
know, once you're here, you're

01:15:59.690 --> 01:16:01.430
never away from the family.

01:16:01.430 --> 01:16:03.410
You are part of this dysfunction family.

01:16:04.140 --> 01:16:07.350
And so they love and they're, they're
continuing their journey and they

01:16:07.350 --> 01:16:09.630
feel they are giving something back.

01:16:09.810 --> 01:16:10.890
They are helping other people.

01:16:10.890 --> 01:16:14.875
And that's, you know, that's the sort of
circle that we wanna kind of be able to

01:16:15.375 --> 01:16:15.595
Rupert Isaacson: do.

01:16:15.595 --> 01:16:18.060
Some of these mentors also come
and help you on the non-military

01:16:18.060 --> 01:16:21.115
program, so they help you with the
troubled youth and the kids and Yeah.

01:16:21.270 --> 01:16:21.600
Yeah.

01:16:21.635 --> 01:16:26.860
I, I think, I think what we need to
do is maybe after this podcast maybe

01:16:27.130 --> 01:16:34.870
do a, a, a webinar for our stu for our
members on new trails learning systems,

01:16:34.870 --> 01:16:36.310
you know, who are all running programs.

01:16:36.310 --> 01:16:41.980
I think that people would be fascinated
by this possibility that if you weren't

01:16:41.980 --> 01:16:45.760
connected to the military in the way that
you guys are, you wouldn't know that there

01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:47.590
are these networks that you can tap into.

01:16:48.160 --> 01:16:51.820
And it might not occur to people who
are in the military or transitioning

01:16:51.820 --> 01:16:56.950
outta the military that they could
become mentors in programs like these,

01:16:57.010 --> 01:17:01.390
unless they're, you know, so you guys
really bridge could serve as a bridge I

01:17:01.390 --> 01:17:06.580
feel, between the more civilian end of
equine assisted, which is most of it.

01:17:07.210 --> 01:17:10.810
And really solving a lot of these,
these dilemmas which people have

01:17:10.840 --> 01:17:17.080
of not enough team members, but
not enough money to hire people.

01:17:18.325 --> 01:17:21.055
Full time and can't really
rely on volunteers all the time

01:17:21.055 --> 01:17:22.315
because it's not, it's not fair.

01:17:22.315 --> 01:17:26.005
And b, if you not paying people, they
sort of can't show up all the time.

01:17:26.005 --> 01:17:29.395
And that a lot of people get
caught in that time, in, in,

01:17:29.395 --> 01:17:30.865
in that particular dilemma.

01:17:30.865 --> 01:17:34.645
It seems like you guys have really
found an amazing way through that.

01:17:34.645 --> 01:17:38.905
So with your permission, I
think we'll ask you to come and

01:17:38.905 --> 01:17:40.075
do some consulting with that.

01:17:40.615 --> 01:17:42.145
You talk about allocating horses.

01:17:42.835 --> 01:17:44.005
Talk to me about the horses.

01:17:44.245 --> 01:17:46.705
Talk to me about how you
train and prepare the horses.

01:17:47.305 --> 01:17:52.015
Talk to me about, you know, obviously
there's, how many horses have you got?

01:17:52.020 --> 01:17:53.305
How, how do you keep them?

01:17:54.265 --> 01:17:55.405
Talk me through the equine end.

01:17:57.235 --> 01:18:00.655
Emma Hutchison: So we we're
lucky, we have plenty of space.

01:18:00.895 --> 01:18:07.915
We have a herd of 40 horses who dietary
requirements allowing we've got a big

01:18:08.455 --> 01:18:12.385
in the, in the winter we have fields
around the, the house and the stables.

01:18:12.935 --> 01:18:16.445
So they live in smaller herds
around the, in the winter because,

01:18:16.565 --> 01:18:18.035
because that's what has to happen.

01:18:18.585 --> 01:18:24.865
In the summer we've got a 40 acre hill
field which pretty much most of the

01:18:24.865 --> 01:18:28.525
herd go out two, certainly in the next
two weeks, and it'll be up on the hill.

01:18:28.525 --> 01:18:31.975
The grass is just starting to grow now
and then we've got another 40 acre.

01:18:33.055 --> 01:18:34.915
Of rough, what we call rough ground.

01:18:35.185 --> 01:18:38.545
So it is literally rough ground, all
sorts of different types of grasses.

01:18:38.985 --> 01:18:42.465
Go bushes, bits of little
bits of woodland and stuff.

01:18:42.735 --> 01:18:46.905
And I mean, you talk to Jay about
the, the bush, one of the, the best

01:18:46.905 --> 01:18:50.505
activities that we do with the kids
is dependent on the time of the year.

01:18:50.505 --> 01:18:54.165
If the horses are out in the rough
ground, it's kind of like, guys, you're

01:18:54.165 --> 01:18:58.125
gonna have to go find your horses because
you literally can lose these horses

01:18:58.425 --> 01:19:02.240
and you can take half an hour sort of
marching across this bit going just

01:19:02.240 --> 01:19:02.800
Rupert Isaacson: to locate them.

01:19:02.800 --> 01:19:03.080
Yeah.

01:19:03.220 --> 01:19:05.235
Emma Hutchison: And then you can
locate it, but you can't get to it

01:19:05.235 --> 01:19:07.995
because there's a huge break horse
that you can't go through unless

01:19:07.995 --> 01:19:10.335
you've got the highland pony that just
literally goes straight through it.

01:19:11.085 --> 01:19:15.495
So I mean, our, our thing is that they're
kept as naturally as they possibly can be.

01:19:15.975 --> 01:19:21.675
Happy horses in that sort of
environment, may working with them,

01:19:22.065 --> 01:19:24.585
for them doing their job very easy.

01:19:24.975 --> 01:19:28.885
It means that we don't have to worry
about you know, whether this horse

01:19:28.945 --> 01:19:32.245
is gonna kick that horse or whatever
when we are working with them in more

01:19:32.245 --> 01:19:36.025
enclosed spaces because they've, they've
dealt with all that in the fields.

01:19:36.145 --> 01:19:38.665
They all know the hierarchy and
never think about, you know,

01:19:38.665 --> 01:19:41.545
don't go near that horse because
it's it's mean kind of thing.

01:19:41.995 --> 01:19:44.725
So they have all sorted out
the horse, sort all that out.

01:19:45.355 --> 01:19:50.395
We have bred some of our own
horses, so easy to just bring into

01:19:50.395 --> 01:19:52.105
the workplace and start working.

01:19:52.805 --> 01:19:55.595
Because coming in as, and getting tied up.

01:19:56.870 --> 01:19:57.170
Herd.

01:19:57.620 --> 01:20:01.410
And people are always amazed when they
come up here that we can have 20 horses.

01:20:01.410 --> 01:20:05.070
We've got the, the corral in
the center of our kind of stead.

01:20:05.890 --> 01:20:07.240
We tie the horses all up there.

01:20:07.240 --> 01:20:08.170
They don't get hay nets.

01:20:08.230 --> 01:20:11.020
They just get tied up and they just stand.

01:20:11.320 --> 01:20:13.510
And they'll stand there
whilst they're groomed.

01:20:13.510 --> 01:20:14.830
They'll stand there all together.

01:20:15.370 --> 01:20:21.310
And our young horses learn how to stand
because everybody else is standing

01:20:21.310 --> 01:20:23.620
and that's what you do sort of thing.

01:20:24.160 --> 01:20:28.060
So we start the youngsters coming
in with, with the other horses.

01:20:28.190 --> 01:20:29.690
And then they'll just
start to get groomed.

01:20:30.130 --> 01:20:35.000
We do do a lot of groundwork with them
because part of the programs that our guys

01:20:35.000 --> 01:20:40.040
do is simple things like backing a horse
up or drawing a horse into you, or being

01:20:40.040 --> 01:20:42.230
able to just move its back end around.

01:20:42.710 --> 01:20:45.470
So it's just very simple kind
of horsemanship that we do.

01:20:45.650 --> 01:20:50.150
So all of our horses need to be
able to do that to ensure that

01:20:50.450 --> 01:20:55.130
every individual that asks the horse
to back up is going to get a win.

01:20:56.540 --> 01:20:59.930
So the horses are all kind of
taught from a, a certain command

01:21:00.200 --> 01:21:01.790
and a, and a and a noise.

01:21:01.850 --> 01:21:06.170
And the, the people who come on
the are told, well do this bit

01:21:06.170 --> 01:21:08.900
of pressure, ask with this noise,
and the horse will back up.

01:21:09.830 --> 01:21:14.720
So the horses have to be trained to
a certain standard to get that win.

01:21:15.590 --> 01:21:18.470
Probably 50 of them are ridden.

01:21:19.490 --> 01:21:22.760
So again, those are all started in Holter.

01:21:22.760 --> 01:21:24.470
They're generally started bare back.

01:21:24.880 --> 01:21:27.970
Once you can walk rot and can to
bare background in a Holter, then

01:21:27.970 --> 01:21:29.620
we might decide to put a saddle on.

01:21:30.160 --> 01:21:32.770
So that, and again, they're just
so used to being around each other.

01:21:32.770 --> 01:21:35.350
It's just a really simple process.

01:21:36.130 --> 01:21:40.090
So we do put saddles on them,
but we ride in side falls.

01:21:40.090 --> 01:21:41.170
We don't ride in bridals.

01:21:41.880 --> 01:21:46.200
So again, we ride kind of like with a,
if people are riding, then they'll ride

01:21:46.200 --> 01:21:50.220
with a kind of like a Luc range because
again, I've got this real phobia of,

01:21:50.375 --> 01:21:53.540
of kids in riding schools, balancing
on their hands and things like that.

01:21:53.540 --> 01:21:56.580
So I'm just we need to be as
kind to the horses as we can.

01:21:57.180 --> 01:22:03.540
When they do ride, the first thing that
we tend to do, we used to, we used to do

01:22:03.540 --> 01:22:05.820
a lot more of the like, let's get you on.

01:22:05.820 --> 01:22:09.450
But actually now I've kind of changed
a bit, and the first time that people

01:22:09.450 --> 01:22:11.400
will get on is actually bareback.

01:22:12.060 --> 01:22:14.580
So their first experience of
riding a horse will be bareback,

01:22:14.670 --> 01:22:17.460
whether it's the kids or, or
the adult or the military guys.

01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:20.100
Because again, it is just
about that closeness.

01:22:20.100 --> 01:22:23.345
And again, it's, it's, it's
not about riding a horse, it's

01:22:23.370 --> 01:22:24.750
about having that connection.

01:22:24.780 --> 01:22:29.270
It is about feeling the way that the
horse is moving and we'll get them to,

01:22:29.510 --> 01:22:29.840
you know,

01:22:31.160 --> 01:22:33.080
Emma Hutchison: touch their
toes or put their arm up or

01:22:33.080 --> 01:22:34.310
maybe close their eyes and.

01:22:41.240 --> 01:22:43.520
They're riding, but they,
it's not about the riding.

01:22:44.210 --> 01:22:46.430
And then they get off and
say, I want to do this again.

01:22:46.700 --> 01:22:47.420
I want to do more.

01:22:47.990 --> 01:22:49.340
So then we can do more.

01:22:49.340 --> 01:22:50.870
And then we might put the saddle on.

01:22:50.870 --> 01:22:51.950
We might not put a saddle along.

01:22:52.010 --> 01:22:53.480
We might do some obstacle courses.

01:22:54.020 --> 01:22:56.810
We might end up going for a trail
ride round the rough ground.

01:22:57.520 --> 01:23:00.250
When we do that, you end up being
followed by several Shetlands, which

01:23:00.250 --> 01:23:02.590
can be slightly intimidating sometimes.

01:23:02.590 --> 01:23:06.430
But or as I say, we might take them
off onto the, the trail where we bundle

01:23:06.430 --> 01:23:10.750
them all in the lorry and they go for
the big kind of trail rides and then

01:23:10.870 --> 01:23:12.610
the, the guys camp out every night.

01:23:13.780 --> 01:23:18.185
So, as I say, the horses
have all got, they've all got

01:23:18.280 --> 01:23:21.010
things that they enjoy more.

01:23:21.670 --> 01:23:24.130
So we've got the horses
that love being groomed.

01:23:24.400 --> 01:23:27.940
There's always some horses that are
a bit nonplus about being groomed.

01:23:28.780 --> 01:23:31.420
We've got horses that are
fantastic at groom groundwork.

01:23:32.260 --> 01:23:35.020
We've got horses that are
very good in the round pen.

01:23:35.020 --> 01:23:39.150
We do do some some stuff in the, and we've
got some horses that are good at that.

01:23:39.540 --> 01:23:41.280
We've got others that love being ridden.

01:23:41.490 --> 01:23:44.400
We've got ones that can
be ridden, but they don't.

01:23:45.840 --> 01:23:49.140
We able to, because we've
got the space and the put the

01:23:49.140 --> 01:23:51.540
horses into the job that they.

01:23:52.065 --> 01:23:56.145
Good at and love, which means they're
better at the job that they do

01:23:56.145 --> 01:23:57.765
because they love it kind of thing.

01:23:57.765 --> 01:23:58.125
Right.

01:23:58.125 --> 01:24:00.255
Rupert Isaacson: And they're more,
more generous when it comes to

01:24:00.645 --> 01:24:01.875
occasionally being asked to do a job.

01:24:01.875 --> 01:24:04.365
Well, okay, maybe that's not
my favorite job, but, alright.

01:24:04.605 --> 01:24:04.936
Yeah, yeah.

01:24:05.575 --> 01:24:08.340
You also though, you, you guys
are accomplished rider in the,

01:24:08.575 --> 01:24:09.985
in the sport world as well.

01:24:09.985 --> 01:24:13.235
You guys event your and your
daughter's event and so on.

01:24:13.505 --> 01:24:16.445
So it's interesting that you, you
cross, you know, it's, it's, I'm

01:24:16.445 --> 01:24:20.285
always intrigued by people that cross
over between those worlds because

01:24:20.285 --> 01:24:24.335
one of the if you like, curses of the
equestrian world is that I always feel

01:24:24.335 --> 01:24:28.325
people over specialize as like, I am
only a natural horsemanship person.

01:24:28.385 --> 01:24:33.245
I only do western pleasure, or
I am, you know, a show jumper.

01:24:33.685 --> 01:24:36.955
But I'm not interested in that dressage
stuff or I'm only a dressage writer.

01:24:37.075 --> 01:24:37.405
It's like,

01:24:37.885 --> 01:24:38.125
why

01:24:38.125 --> 01:24:38.815
Rupert Isaacson: not do it all?

01:24:39.115 --> 01:24:39.475
You know?

01:24:39.505 --> 01:24:44.455
I mean, horses, pe presumably like
variety in the same way that people do.

01:24:44.935 --> 01:24:48.715
So I was quite intrigued when I
came to you to see that aspect.

01:24:49.175 --> 01:24:55.295
What do you feel that the involvement
in eventing brings to the assisted

01:24:55.295 --> 01:25:00.035
program and from an equine standpoint
and from a human standpoint?

01:25:00.035 --> 01:25:03.455
Like what, talk to me about that
cross-fertilization that also happens

01:25:03.455 --> 01:25:04.805
within your own family as well.

01:25:04.805 --> 01:25:06.935
So this makes for an interesting mosaic.

01:25:07.940 --> 01:25:08.180
Emma Hutchison: I think.

01:25:08.315 --> 01:25:13.505
I mean, anybody who, kind of connection
with their partner, the horse, because

01:25:13.505 --> 01:25:18.580
otherwise, I mean, there are people
who will do it, but I personally, I

01:25:18.580 --> 01:25:21.785
think, and, and I think in eventing
as well, because it's so extreme,

01:25:22.050 --> 01:25:22.340
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:25:22.440 --> 01:25:23.780
You have to trust the
horse with your life.

01:25:23.780 --> 01:25:23.980
Yeah.

01:25:24.000 --> 01:25:24.220
You

01:25:24.220 --> 01:25:25.475
Emma Hutchison: have to have, yeah.

01:25:25.475 --> 01:25:28.925
I mean, you, you cannot make a horse
jump what these guys are jumping.

01:25:29.315 --> 01:25:32.885
The horse has to wanna, and,
and you're not gonna get the

01:25:32.885 --> 01:25:33.965
right stride the whole time.

01:25:33.965 --> 01:25:38.525
So you are putting your trust in that
horse to get the two of you over.

01:25:38.525 --> 01:25:43.115
And you have to you have to give
the horse the capacity to think.

01:25:43.625 --> 01:25:47.345
And I think that that's what I always
say is the difference personally that

01:25:47.345 --> 01:25:52.645
I feel between your more traditional
English riding and your more sort of

01:25:52.645 --> 01:25:58.185
Western horsemanship is that in the,
the western side, you tend to put a

01:25:58.185 --> 01:26:01.485
little bit more hands on, a little
bit more responsibility on the horse.

01:26:03.195 --> 01:26:05.835
Rupert Isaacson: As someone that lives
in Texas for over 20 years, I'd say

01:26:05.835 --> 01:26:09.645
you see exactly the same spectrum
of bad and good in the western world

01:26:09.645 --> 01:26:10.935
that you do in the English world.

01:26:10.935 --> 01:26:13.075
But yes a good horseman does do that.

01:26:13.105 --> 01:26:13.495
Yes.

01:26:13.675 --> 01:26:13.945
Yes.

01:26:13.945 --> 01:26:14.155
Yeah.

01:26:14.160 --> 01:26:14.410
Yeah.

01:26:14.415 --> 01:26:14.455
So,

01:26:14.905 --> 01:26:17.450
Emma Hutchison: So again, what what
we've, what we've done is with the, the

01:26:17.450 --> 01:26:20.245
horses that we used to compete on mm-hmm.

01:26:20.245 --> 01:26:21.295
They're still used.

01:26:21.850 --> 01:26:24.010
They still benefit from
all of the other stuff.

01:26:24.010 --> 01:26:24.700
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

01:26:24.910 --> 01:26:26.535
Emma Hutchison: That we
do with the horses here.

01:26:26.910 --> 01:26:29.070
Rupert Isaacson: And do they get
involved in the program as well just

01:26:29.370 --> 01:26:32.220
or is there like, oh no, you guys are
the posh horses over there and you guys

01:26:32.220 --> 01:26:35.550
are the, the rough horses over there or
do they all actually muck in together?

01:26:35.910 --> 01:26:37.715
Emma Hutchison: There is a bit
of like, well these are the posh

01:26:37.715 --> 01:26:41.770
horses over here, but when we're
wanting to show what you can achieve

01:26:41.950 --> 01:26:42.280
with what now,

01:26:42.760 --> 01:26:45.430
Emma Hutchison: this is when you've got
a a a sort of top level partnership,

01:26:45.850 --> 01:26:46.990
this is what you can achieve.

01:26:47.050 --> 01:26:51.270
And we've got one of the, the
thoroughbreds who is very extreme and

01:26:51.270 --> 01:26:54.840
it's taken a lot of, a lot of work with
her to sort of be able to teach her, to

01:26:54.840 --> 01:27:00.090
bring her anxiety down and, and sort of,
so we can use her to show, this is a horse

01:27:00.090 --> 01:27:04.260
that was at the top of its game, was a
kind of race horse is basically designed

01:27:04.260 --> 01:27:06.630
to run this is, this is long legs.

01:27:06.870 --> 01:27:10.240
She runs she doesn't want to be
made to stand still and do kind

01:27:10.240 --> 01:27:12.790
of little things, but we've taught
her that actually it can be fun.

01:27:12.790 --> 01:27:15.970
So we do a lot of liberty stuff with
her and taught her to sort of come in a

01:27:16.030 --> 01:27:17.710
whistle and, and the kids love all that.

01:27:17.710 --> 01:27:21.280
If you can kind of have a horse sort
of countering around you in a circle in

01:27:21.280 --> 01:27:25.540
the field and then you whistle and it
kind of runs to you and nozzles in the

01:27:25.540 --> 01:27:27.190
kids are like, wow, that's just amazing.

01:27:28.240 --> 01:27:31.300
And we've got some of the horses that are,
are quite capable of doing that with these

01:27:31.300 --> 01:27:32.830
kids and they just, they just love it.

01:27:32.830 --> 01:27:33.880
Just being followed around by.

01:27:41.980 --> 01:27:42.730
The individuals.

01:27:42.730 --> 01:27:47.260
We have got a herd of an aging herd,
which again, we, we bred some horses

01:27:47.260 --> 01:27:48.490
because we did think we'll buy there.

01:27:48.790 --> 01:27:52.660
By this time these horses
will no longer be with us.

01:27:52.690 --> 01:27:58.690
We have got now quite a herd of 20, 20,
30-year-old who are still have come out

01:27:58.900 --> 01:28:01.930
this winter particularly well and actually
have been used on the program last week.

01:28:01.960 --> 01:28:03.250
They just come in, they get a groom.

01:28:03.250 --> 01:28:03.880
They love that.

01:28:03.940 --> 01:28:05.680
That's kind of where
they're at the moment.

01:28:06.330 --> 01:28:09.270
And then we've got some little
mini Shetlands because we get

01:28:09.450 --> 01:28:14.550
big six foot, six raw marines
who are terrified of horses and

01:28:14.550 --> 01:28:14.910
literal

01:28:15.360 --> 01:28:15.875
Emma Hutchison: terrified horses.

01:28:16.830 --> 01:28:21.000
So you bring this thing that is the
size of a Labrador out and say, you're

01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:23.130
having a laugh if you're telling me
that you, you're frightened of that.

01:28:23.130 --> 01:28:24.990
And then they kind of
say, okay, fair enough.

01:28:25.560 --> 01:28:27.210
Rupert Isaacson: And then why not
disclosing to them that the most

01:28:27.210 --> 01:28:30.480
terrifying equine they will ever
encounter is in fact a Shetland pony.

01:28:30.480 --> 01:28:30.900
But hey,

01:28:33.390 --> 01:28:34.170
Emma Hutchison: well, exactly.

01:28:34.170 --> 01:28:34.440
Yeah.

01:28:34.440 --> 01:28:35.190
They are the horrors.

01:28:35.190 --> 01:28:38.790
So we've got, we've got lots of
different, we've got thoroughbreds,

01:28:38.850 --> 01:28:42.660
we've got cos we've got quarter
horses, we've got Irish drafts, we've

01:28:42.660 --> 01:28:45.330
got a whole spectrum of, of horses.

01:28:45.330 --> 01:28:49.890
We've got horses that we've rescued, we've
got things that we were given whatever.

01:28:50.410 --> 01:28:53.920
And they've all kind of found their,
their little place, but they, they're

01:28:53.920 --> 01:28:58.840
just but as I say, it, it fascinating
how we had one horse last week with

01:28:58.840 --> 01:29:01.630
one of the military with a lady and he.

01:29:08.320 --> 01:29:12.700
And I don't know why I made this match
with this lady last week, but I thought,

01:29:12.700 --> 01:29:14.200
right, I'm gonna put her with Mikey.

01:29:14.770 --> 01:29:19.390
And he just loved her and it
was just a match made in heaven.

01:29:19.390 --> 01:29:23.800
And I just thought, my goodness, this
horse is just having a fantastic week.

01:29:24.250 --> 01:29:28.660
He was, every day he was looking for,
and he'd come in and it was just amazing.

01:29:29.020 --> 01:29:29.830
Just amazing.

01:29:31.240 --> 01:29:32.830
So they are, they're funny critters.

01:29:32.830 --> 01:29:36.610
And we had, again, we've got one big
Irish draft horse who had a, a really

01:29:36.610 --> 01:29:39.820
autistic boy who came on one of the
schools programs and just, you know,

01:29:39.820 --> 01:29:41.740
he didn't want to engage at all.

01:29:42.310 --> 01:29:46.360
And so we were out with all the other kids
catching the horses and he just stood,

01:29:46.570 --> 01:29:48.400
put his head down and just whatever.

01:29:48.460 --> 01:29:51.610
And this big old Irish draft was not
the horse I was gonna put him with,

01:29:51.970 --> 01:29:55.535
but he clocked him from the other
side of the field and he, I just saw,

01:29:55.720 --> 01:29:59.050
saw him kind of like coming and he
just literally came up and he put

01:29:59.050 --> 01:30:01.060
his head on this kid's shoulder.

01:30:01.990 --> 01:30:02.020
Ah.

01:30:02.500 --> 01:30:05.650
Emma Hutchison: So they spent the
whole, their, their school program.

01:30:05.650 --> 01:30:11.020
He then came back to us about two years
later to do the youth development program

01:30:11.350 --> 01:30:13.240
and bubbling up here to think about it.

01:30:13.240 --> 01:30:17.020
And this kid, having not been here
for two years, went into the field

01:30:17.050 --> 01:30:18.430
and exactly the same thing happened.

01:30:18.970 --> 01:30:19.480
This horse

01:30:19.480 --> 01:30:23.020
Emma Hutchison: from a distance
sped this child who was then 19

01:30:23.020 --> 01:30:25.660
years old and literally went up
to him and did the same thing.

01:30:26.200 --> 01:30:27.430
Now how does that happen?

01:30:28.210 --> 01:30:30.790
Rupert Isaacson: Well, this is one
of the things that I am constantly

01:30:31.420 --> 01:30:36.580
flawed by, is just when I think I
know something about horses, they do.

01:30:37.095 --> 01:30:42.190
In, in this type of work that
we do, the way that they'll show

01:30:42.190 --> 01:30:45.670
up making their own decisions

01:30:49.540 --> 01:30:51.820
completely independent of us.

01:30:52.430 --> 01:30:58.810
I remember once one of my really good
quarter horses who could be aloof.

01:30:59.620 --> 01:31:05.100
We had a boy who drowned and was
in a pretty vegetative state and

01:31:05.520 --> 01:31:06.870
people said, well, can we bring him?

01:31:06.870 --> 01:31:07.620
I'm like, sure.

01:31:07.620 --> 01:31:11.100
But I, I dunno what you know, but Sure.

01:31:11.940 --> 01:31:15.290
And this kid comes out and he's in
a wheelchair and he's completely

01:31:15.290 --> 01:31:21.320
unresponsive feeding to tube, and
my horse clue just comes like you

01:31:21.320 --> 01:31:29.030
just described across the field and
just sniffs him all over and then

01:31:29.060 --> 01:31:34.250
licks him all over from head to toe.

01:31:35.120 --> 01:31:36.410
Emma Hutchison: And that's
not something that horses do.

01:31:36.410 --> 01:31:37.220
That's just, we,

01:31:37.220 --> 01:31:39.770
Rupert Isaacson: they don't,
and it's not like that he was

01:31:39.770 --> 01:31:41.450
my licking horse or something.

01:31:41.570 --> 01:31:42.230
No.

01:31:43.250 --> 01:31:43.850
And

01:31:47.030 --> 01:31:51.830
what ended up happening was the kid
ended up riding him and indicating and

01:31:51.830 --> 01:31:56.780
responding and, but what was going on

01:31:57.140 --> 01:31:57.260
mm-hmm.

01:31:57.890 --> 01:32:03.380
Rupert Isaacson: In the sort of
other dimensional consciousness.

01:32:04.220 --> 01:32:09.110
That the, with, for example, with this
autistic boy that you describe and

01:32:09.350 --> 01:32:14.090
your horse, something goes on in, in,
in, in that field of consciousness

01:32:14.090 --> 01:32:15.590
that's outside of our perception.

01:32:16.400 --> 01:32:18.920
And it's, I think, I always
think that's one of the

01:32:22.550 --> 01:32:27.020
things that keeps us in, in this,
because it can be quite exhausting

01:32:27.020 --> 01:32:28.490
work, as you yourself know.

01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:34.760
And then you, you come across these
situations relatively regularly and it's

01:32:34.760 --> 01:32:36.260
like you are, you are dancing with God.

01:32:36.260 --> 01:32:37.910
It's like you Yeah.

01:32:38.930 --> 01:32:40.940
Emma Hutchison: But people
say to us, how does it work?

01:32:40.940 --> 01:32:42.470
And I just say, I don't know.

01:32:42.475 --> 01:32:42.585
Yeah.

01:32:42.605 --> 01:32:43.625
But I don't need to know.

01:32:44.240 --> 01:32:44.450
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:32:44.750 --> 01:32:45.770
Emma Hutchison: And I
think that's the best.

01:32:46.280 --> 01:32:48.650
Just let it happen
because it, it does happen

01:32:50.450 --> 01:32:52.370
Rupert Isaacson: now really what
we're talking about with the

01:32:52.370 --> 01:32:55.790
collective consciousness in that,
you know, you can call it God, you

01:32:55.790 --> 01:32:57.230
can call it the Akashic record.

01:32:57.230 --> 01:33:03.920
You can call it, you know, parallel
consciousness as or, but really

01:33:03.920 --> 01:33:05.060
it seems to come down to love.

01:33:05.630 --> 01:33:09.320
And you know, we've touched on
the fact that you operate as an

01:33:09.320 --> 01:33:12.650
extended family, but you also
operate as a close type family.

01:33:12.920 --> 01:33:17.990
What's it been like for you and your
children to really grow up together?

01:33:18.015 --> 01:33:21.680
Because as you know, parents, kids
make their parents grow up, whether

01:33:21.680 --> 01:33:22.760
their parents want to or not.

01:33:23.300 --> 01:33:26.600
You guys have grown up in
this endeavor, as you said.

01:33:26.690 --> 01:33:27.830
You know, when the.

01:33:28.220 --> 01:33:31.670
Lads were first coming out, it
was your fridge, and they might

01:33:31.670 --> 01:33:33.650
eat the kids' lunch or dinner.

01:33:33.710 --> 01:33:37.130
And the kids sort of having to
grow up sharing their space.

01:33:37.850 --> 01:33:38.870
I think it's very healthy.

01:33:39.650 --> 01:33:45.230
Talk to us about what it's like for you
and for them to do this thing as a family.

01:33:46.760 --> 01:33:49.280
Emma Hutchison: So, I mean,
the, the, the best was Helena

01:33:49.280 --> 01:33:50.930
was three when we started this.

01:33:51.530 --> 01:33:54.980
And for the first few years, a
lot of the guys who were coming

01:33:54.980 --> 01:33:56.510
to us had prosthetic legs.

01:33:57.290 --> 01:34:01.370
So in our kitchen you would see
literally these prosthetic legs all

01:34:01.370 --> 01:34:04.700
just leaning against the wall in the
kitchen and various other kind of limbs.

01:34:04.700 --> 01:34:07.010
So the girls just grew up,
they thought that was normal.

01:34:07.690 --> 01:34:10.900
But Helena would always, as soon
as we got somebody came up to the

01:34:10.900 --> 01:34:14.020
house, whether it was on a course or
whether it was just somebody else,

01:34:14.410 --> 01:34:15.940
she just used to kick them in the shin

01:34:18.520 --> 01:34:19.241
quite a while to say,

01:34:21.490 --> 01:34:26.320
she said, it's not a real, I said,
but, but not everybody has metal legs.

01:34:26.320 --> 01:34:28.930
It's, it's, you can't just
kick people in the shin.

01:34:29.350 --> 01:34:33.310
So she just thought that everybody
had these, these kind of amazing

01:34:33.310 --> 01:34:35.110
legs that you could kind of kick.

01:34:35.110 --> 01:34:37.670
And again, Charlotte used to
some of the courses, some of the

01:34:37.670 --> 01:34:39.380
prosthetics that they had had feet.

01:34:40.070 --> 01:34:44.930
So, you know, I've got decisions of
the girls with their eight or nine nail

01:34:44.930 --> 01:34:47.570
polish out and they would be nail polish.

01:34:51.005 --> 01:34:54.725
Just, you know, and I think a lot
of their friends, they just, because

01:34:54.725 --> 01:34:59.645
people can find things like that,
disfigurement and disability and stuff,

01:34:59.645 --> 01:35:01.505
people can find it really difficult.

01:35:02.615 --> 01:35:04.625
They don't know how to,
how to deal with it.

01:35:04.655 --> 01:35:05.165
How to

01:35:05.165 --> 01:35:05.285
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:35:05.285 --> 01:35:06.575
Can trigger fear basically.

01:35:07.115 --> 01:35:07.265
Yeah.

01:35:07.265 --> 01:35:07.445
How, how do

01:35:07.445 --> 01:35:09.785
Emma Hutchison: I speak to, I
mean, a really good friend of mine

01:35:10.385 --> 01:35:12.005
said, well, how do I speak to Jay?

01:35:12.095 --> 01:35:13.955
When we first met him, and
I said, what do you mean?

01:35:13.955 --> 01:35:14.795
How do you speak to Jay?

01:35:14.885 --> 01:35:17.645
Well, you know, Jay's got all this
stuff that's gone on with him.

01:35:17.645 --> 01:35:20.165
I said, but speak to him like he's Jay.

01:35:20.915 --> 01:35:21.305
Yeah.

01:35:21.305 --> 01:35:21.395
And

01:35:21.395 --> 01:35:24.755
Emma Hutchison: she said,
okay, but people find barriers.

01:35:24.845 --> 01:35:26.945
So my kids had no barriers.

01:35:26.945 --> 01:35:30.905
Their friends had no barriers
because it was just normal.

01:35:31.055 --> 01:35:37.385
They loved it until they got to
about 12 or 13, then they hated it.

01:35:37.595 --> 01:35:41.525
It was the worst thing when Dad used to
go into school to give a presentation

01:35:42.065 --> 01:35:45.905
about the charity or everybody would
say, oh, what's happening at horseback?

01:35:46.115 --> 01:35:46.865
They hated it.

01:35:47.405 --> 01:35:52.295
And then that love has kind of
come back, sort of 16, 17, suddenly

01:35:52.295 --> 01:35:56.655
the, they actually appreciate
what we're doing here and see the

01:35:56.655 --> 01:35:58.335
differences and have got involved.

01:35:58.335 --> 01:36:01.155
And so that kind of passion
and that love has come back.

01:36:01.155 --> 01:36:03.255
It's not easy working with family.

01:36:03.255 --> 01:36:04.815
And obviously Jock and I work together.

01:36:04.815 --> 01:36:05.835
We are very different.

01:36:05.835 --> 01:36:10.275
We have managed to carve out very
different roles within the charity, which

01:36:10.275 --> 01:36:13.135
has kind of kept us able to work together.

01:36:13.555 --> 01:36:17.155
And as I say, Charlotte's kind of
come in now and she's the yard manager

01:36:17.155 --> 01:36:19.135
and the horse trailer and stuff.

01:36:19.135 --> 01:36:21.715
So she's carved out her role there.

01:36:22.285 --> 01:36:26.155
It's difficult, but it is, as
I say, I think they're, they're

01:36:26.155 --> 01:36:28.435
now very proud of, of, of this.

01:36:28.435 --> 01:36:31.705
It's 16 years into it and this
kind of legacy that, that they

01:36:31.705 --> 01:36:35.255
are part of the horseback family
as are their friends actually.

01:36:35.255 --> 01:36:38.465
They're, they're kind of kind of
proud of it now, but it's been, been

01:36:38.465 --> 01:36:40.325
a journey It has, I have to say.

01:36:41.405 --> 01:36:44.415
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

01:36:44.815 --> 01:36:49.715
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

01:36:49.715 --> 01:36:51.965
bit about the old master system.

01:36:52.430 --> 01:36:53.740
of dressage training.

01:36:53.780 --> 01:37:02.350
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:37:02.420 --> 01:37:08.700
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:37:08.710 --> 01:37:15.230
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:37:15.280 --> 01:37:18.050
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:37:18.110 --> 01:37:18.850
Intrigued?

01:37:19.050 --> 01:37:19.910
Like to know more?

01:37:20.780 --> 01:37:23.610
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:37:25.310 --> 01:37:27.000
Check out the free introduction course.

01:37:27.560 --> 01:37:28.080
Take it from there.

01:37:28.584 --> 01:37:32.334
What's what's interesting as, as you're
talking, I'm just considering, you

01:37:32.334 --> 01:37:40.494
know, you've got a core equine team
there, which is mother and daughters.

01:37:42.024 --> 01:37:46.974
You've got a core male team, which
is, okay, now what are we gonna

01:37:47.034 --> 01:37:51.204
do with these prepared horses?

01:37:52.044 --> 01:37:53.994
And obviously there's integration.

01:37:53.994 --> 01:37:57.204
It's not like everyone's confined
to a role, but it makes me think

01:37:57.204 --> 01:38:01.244
very much of sort of a hunting and
gathering community where you do

01:38:01.244 --> 01:38:06.614
have to some degree gender roles, but
not because anyone's assigned them.

01:38:08.204 --> 01:38:10.274
Like, you can't hunt 'cause
you're a woman, or you can't

01:38:10.274 --> 01:38:11.114
gather 'cause you're a man.

01:38:11.114 --> 01:38:11.804
Of course you can.

01:38:11.924 --> 01:38:14.984
And actually there's a lot of
cross-fertilization people do, but

01:38:14.984 --> 01:38:17.804
people find their roles by choice.

01:38:17.804 --> 01:38:21.974
So they have agency and then they know
how to weave that ecosystem together.

01:38:22.304 --> 01:38:25.364
And again, you know, as we
know the horse world is, is.

01:38:25.874 --> 01:38:30.134
A, you know, just female dominated
anyway, except for in the professional

01:38:30.134 --> 01:38:33.359
end where you do get a a bit more balance.

01:38:33.929 --> 01:38:41.759
But I often observe this, particularly
working with autism, that you might get

01:38:41.759 --> 01:38:49.709
an basically an all female staff with an
almost all male clientele, autistic boys.

01:38:51.179 --> 01:38:51.719
And

01:38:53.999 --> 01:39:00.869
where's the male role models
leadership Now, if you go to a place

01:39:00.869 --> 01:39:03.779
that's doing, say, special needs
with surfing or mountain sports or

01:39:03.779 --> 01:39:05.459
something, the blokes are there.

01:39:05.879 --> 01:39:05.969
Mm-hmm.

01:39:06.449 --> 01:39:07.919
Rupert Isaacson: But we need
them in the horse world.

01:39:08.069 --> 01:39:12.629
And you and in the equine programs,
you guys have really got that

01:39:13.289 --> 01:39:16.589
and you've got the strong women
in leadership roles as well.

01:39:16.589 --> 01:39:18.719
It's like the best of all worlds.

01:39:18.719 --> 01:39:23.789
And I do feel that you guys could and
should be out there mentoring other

01:39:23.789 --> 01:39:28.799
equine programs saying, look, you
gotta kind of have this balance if you

01:39:28.799 --> 01:39:33.329
want to balance people's brains and
nervous systems because you, without

01:39:33.329 --> 01:39:35.459
it, it's, it, it, it, it's weighted.

01:39:36.029 --> 01:39:39.209
So that was actually gonna lead me into
the next thing I wanted to ask you about.

01:39:39.209 --> 01:39:43.169
You guys have started this register
and I know that you're also running

01:39:43.169 --> 01:39:46.769
courses and people can, now come
and train with you to some degree.

01:39:46.769 --> 01:39:49.859
And you've also got, you, you, you're,
you're busy working stuff out with

01:39:49.859 --> 01:39:53.599
Hart Pre College down which is one
of the big agricultural colleges

01:39:53.599 --> 01:39:58.439
in, in the uk for those listeners
in the USA and elsewhere, just the

01:39:58.439 --> 01:40:01.139
geography, it's think Alaska to Denver.

01:40:01.229 --> 01:40:06.179
You know, it's, it's like the top of
the highlands down to Middle England.

01:40:06.179 --> 01:40:07.739
It's, it's not round the corner.

01:40:08.259 --> 01:40:11.799
But it's a major
educational establishment.

01:40:12.189 --> 01:40:14.949
So talk to us now about Yeah.

01:40:14.949 --> 01:40:18.909
The, the, the register and your
educational programs, and then also

01:40:18.909 --> 01:40:21.909
how can people, you know, get in
touch with the four mentorship.

01:40:22.809 --> 01:40:26.859
Emma Hutchison: So Hart came about,
I was down there six, seven years

01:40:26.859 --> 01:40:33.079
ago, and we got the opportunity to
run some pilot programs down there.

01:40:33.499 --> 01:40:36.499
Hart is the biggest EQU in
the university in the uk.

01:40:37.119 --> 01:40:39.009
And it's very traditional.

01:40:39.849 --> 01:40:45.009
And they, but they have some members
of staff who are quite high up, who,

01:40:45.129 --> 01:40:50.529
who are quite innovative and thought
that it was a good idea for us to do

01:40:50.529 --> 01:40:52.809
some equine assisted services programs.

01:40:53.559 --> 01:40:54.160
So we went in.

01:40:54.309 --> 01:40:54.459
But

01:40:54.459 --> 01:40:56.619
Rupert Isaacson: how, because they're not
exactly in your neighborhood, are they?

01:40:56.679 --> 01:40:59.469
And so you'd have expected that
to happen through a Scottish

01:40:59.969 --> 01:41:01.979
college or So Hartery is.

01:41:02.639 --> 01:41:03.119
Apples, oranges,

01:41:04.199 --> 01:41:05.909
Emma Hutchison: personal
relationships basically.

01:41:06.119 --> 01:41:06.449
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:41:06.599 --> 01:41:09.299
Emma Hutchison: So they kind of
invited us to run some programs.

01:41:09.729 --> 01:41:13.839
And we basically, you can see, I remember
the first day that we went in, you

01:41:13.839 --> 01:41:19.509
could see the equine department there
thinking, who are this bunch of weirdos

01:41:19.809 --> 01:41:23.529
who are saying, can we build an obstacle
course and can we do this and can we

01:41:23.529 --> 01:41:25.029
just groom the horses in the arena?

01:41:25.029 --> 01:41:27.879
And with the kids we're
thinking, well, why are they not?

01:41:28.569 --> 01:41:29.799
What, what is that for?

01:41:30.009 --> 01:41:33.399
Anyway, they, within literally 24
hours, they were all asking if they

01:41:33.399 --> 01:41:36.969
could volunteer to help yet find
director is just the most amazing guy.

01:41:37.459 --> 01:41:40.579
We've run some pilot schemes, we've
run some additional programs, and we're

01:41:40.579 --> 01:41:45.359
now trying to, I'm going down in a next
month to see how do we work out, how

01:41:45.359 --> 01:41:50.119
do we fund this on a long term basis
because it needs to be sustainable.

01:41:50.119 --> 01:41:54.469
It needs to be something that isn't just
there a, a week here and a week there.

01:41:54.469 --> 01:41:57.409
It needs to be something where
they want to bring equine assisted

01:41:57.409 --> 01:42:02.239
services to Hartley so that
it's a standalone department and

01:42:02.239 --> 01:42:05.779
running all sorts of programs for
different groups, whether it's kids,

01:42:05.779 --> 01:42:07.039
whether it's military, whatever.

01:42:07.309 --> 01:42:10.759
So that's a work in progress, but it's
really exciting because to say it's

01:42:10.759 --> 01:42:17.539
a, an environment that, it's amazing
how many horse people still don't

01:42:17.539 --> 01:42:19.729
know about equine assisted services.

01:42:22.144 --> 01:42:22.264
Rupert Isaacson: E.

01:42:22.269 --> 01:42:22.939
Exactly.

01:42:22.939 --> 01:42:27.259
And what I think what's changing,
particularly in the UK and Ireland,

01:42:27.859 --> 01:42:33.889
is that it used to be, you know,
RDA and RDA was volunteer and

01:42:33.919 --> 01:42:35.299
therefore you didn't get paid.

01:42:35.329 --> 01:42:39.769
So you had to either be, you know,
you were usually a lady of a certain

01:42:39.769 --> 01:42:43.399
age who didn't need to work, so you
were gonna put your time into that,

01:42:43.519 --> 01:42:48.019
or someone who was really drawn to it
and you were gonna kind of work for

01:42:48.019 --> 01:42:50.239
nothing because you felt this calling.

01:42:50.419 --> 01:42:54.259
But things have changed now and quite
recently, you know, it's now a career

01:42:54.259 --> 01:42:58.879
track and it can be a, a decently paid
career track, but this is all quite new.

01:42:58.879 --> 01:43:02.179
So you're, you're right, a lot of people
aren't aware of it, dunno about it.

01:43:02.269 --> 01:43:04.759
And they might be going into the
equine industry thinking, well, I've

01:43:04.759 --> 01:43:08.449
got to go into the sport end, but
that's already saturated with, you

01:43:08.449 --> 01:43:12.349
know, people and competition and
anyway, there's no security there.

01:43:13.069 --> 01:43:17.719
Or like everything in sport, unless you
float up to the very, very top, it's,

01:43:18.024 --> 01:43:18.314
yeah.

01:43:18.559 --> 01:43:18.769
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:43:19.129 --> 01:43:20.059
So, yeah.

01:43:20.059 --> 01:43:26.299
Talk, talk to us about how you guys are
developing that and, and looking for

01:43:26.299 --> 01:43:28.249
the funding for those sorts of programs.

01:43:28.249 --> 01:43:30.739
And, and again, also tell us about
this register that you guys have

01:43:30.739 --> 01:43:32.929
put together and what that's for.

01:43:33.559 --> 01:43:33.859
Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

01:43:33.859 --> 01:43:37.809
How it sort of came about is as I
say, were looking to then Harvey,

01:43:37.809 --> 01:43:42.569
were then looking to run an equine
assisted program as, as a qualification.

01:43:42.569 --> 01:43:47.019
And then they realized that that part
of the, the program needs to be sending

01:43:47.019 --> 01:43:48.459
people out to do practical work.

01:43:49.509 --> 01:43:54.249
And actually they didn't know
who they were going to be sending

01:43:54.249 --> 01:43:55.794
people out to students X Right.

01:43:56.469 --> 01:44:00.069
To, they couldn't, how they didn't
know if, if, if these people that

01:44:00.069 --> 01:44:03.099
they were gonna be sending them out
to were going to be any, any good.

01:44:03.099 --> 01:44:04.579
So they kind of, pulled that back.

01:44:04.999 --> 01:44:09.059
And at the same time we had myself
and some other people had got together

01:44:09.059 --> 01:44:13.369
because I was been constantly contacted
saying I want to do what you do.

01:44:13.369 --> 01:44:14.029
How do you do it?

01:44:14.029 --> 01:44:15.169
Where'd you raise the money?

01:44:15.529 --> 01:44:16.579
You know, whatever.

01:44:16.579 --> 01:44:21.289
And I thought, you know, it's, this has
taken years and years of us doing this.

01:44:21.289 --> 01:44:22.669
It's a really hard slog.

01:44:23.399 --> 01:44:26.429
But there are lots of people out
there who are doing amazing jobs,

01:44:26.489 --> 01:44:29.519
but there's also lots of people
who don't have the right insurance.

01:44:29.819 --> 01:44:31.469
Whether they, they know or they dunno.

01:44:31.469 --> 01:44:34.079
They, they possibly just dunno that
they don't have the right insurance.

01:44:34.499 --> 01:44:38.729
There's a real thing within equine
assisted services that you suddenly

01:44:38.729 --> 01:44:43.049
bring a horse into the environment
and you've become an expert in a

01:44:43.049 --> 01:44:44.399
field that you've got no knowledge in.

01:44:44.819 --> 01:44:45.119
Mm-hmm.

01:44:45.119 --> 01:44:45.239
Just

01:44:45.239 --> 01:44:45.479
Emma Hutchison: because you,

01:44:47.759 --> 01:44:52.959
so, group of us got together and formed
this register, which is part equine.

01:44:54.909 --> 01:44:55.899
Now the aim of this,

01:44:56.319 --> 01:44:57.274
Rupert Isaacson: what's
the register called?

01:44:57.789 --> 01:45:01.119
Emma Hutchison: The register's called
the Human Equine Interaction Register.

01:45:02.019 --> 01:45:03.939
It's called Air, HEIR.

01:45:04.569 --> 01:45:08.289
And that sits under this
Equine Services Partnership.

01:45:09.039 --> 01:45:14.199
And basically the idea behind
that is that it, it's there to

01:45:14.199 --> 01:45:16.389
protect and promote providers.

01:45:16.929 --> 01:45:20.409
So, you know, service people
that, that actually deliver to

01:45:20.409 --> 01:45:23.799
protect the participants and
to protect the horses as well.

01:45:23.799 --> 01:45:29.199
That's the main aims to things like
making sure that people have got the

01:45:29.199 --> 01:45:33.379
right insurance in place, that you stick
to your scope of practice that you are

01:45:33.379 --> 01:45:37.549
considering animal welfare, that you're
not just doing this to earn a few extra

01:45:37.549 --> 01:45:40.069
buck on top of your riding school kind
of thing that you're doing, whatever.

01:45:40.069 --> 01:45:44.309
It's, so, so it's now got, I think,
close on a hundred different members

01:45:45.239 --> 01:45:51.459
that are from single people members
doing it to organizations like ourselves.

01:45:51.819 --> 01:45:57.769
And we've got the second annual general
meeting that's being held at heart

01:45:57.769 --> 01:46:01.549
rate on the, is it the 8th of April?

01:46:02.189 --> 01:46:04.019
And again, it's about sharing information.

01:46:04.019 --> 01:46:06.089
It's about learning from each other.

01:46:06.419 --> 01:46:08.729
It's not about being modality specific.

01:46:08.729 --> 01:46:13.019
I don't care what what model you
use, as long as you're doing good

01:46:13.019 --> 01:46:15.509
work and you're being kind to
the horses, you've got the right.

01:46:15.929 --> 01:46:19.619
Insurance is in place and you are doing
what you are, you've got the skills to do.

01:46:19.619 --> 01:46:19.799
So.

01:46:19.799 --> 01:46:23.789
If you are, if you, if you're not
a therapist, don't say that you're

01:46:23.789 --> 01:46:27.569
doing therapy or don't try and do
therapy, leave that to the qualifier.

01:46:27.744 --> 01:46:29.699
Rupert Isaacson: How, how do you,
if you like police this though, how

01:46:29.699 --> 01:46:35.009
do you, how do you, because are you
actually traveling around and doing

01:46:35.009 --> 01:46:37.319
inspections on each individual place or?

01:46:37.324 --> 01:46:37.484
Yeah.

01:46:37.744 --> 01:46:40.619
Emma Hutchison: So it's, as it stands at
the moment, it's a voluntary membership.

01:46:40.979 --> 01:46:41.219
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:46:41.849 --> 01:46:44.399
Emma Hutchison: We are asked, we
would ask, somebody would apply and

01:46:44.399 --> 01:46:46.199
we would ask for specific documents.

01:46:46.199 --> 01:46:50.529
Have you got qualifications, whatever,
to show that you say what you're doing.

01:46:50.959 --> 01:46:53.659
And then as far as things like
the welfare, it's basically just

01:46:54.349 --> 01:46:55.849
saying, these are the standards.

01:46:56.299 --> 01:46:57.799
Do you apply to this?

01:46:57.799 --> 01:47:01.879
I mean, we, at the moment, we, we, we
don't police it, but it is basically

01:47:01.879 --> 01:47:07.039
pushing the emphasis on that individual
to say, yes, I, I do, this is what

01:47:07.039 --> 01:47:09.659
I do, and I sign up to these values.

01:47:13.199 --> 01:47:15.419
That's as far as we got at the
moment, is that, and we've,

01:47:15.539 --> 01:47:16.799
it's been a big job to get

01:47:17.189 --> 01:47:18.029
Rupert Isaacson: I am sure

01:47:20.639 --> 01:47:22.709
have that You're dealing with a
lot of strong personalities and

01:47:22.709 --> 01:47:24.419
very independent minded people too.

01:47:24.539 --> 01:47:24.719
Yeah.

01:47:25.089 --> 01:47:29.199
But I think we can all agree that we're in
this interesting transition with that EQU

01:47:29.199 --> 01:47:34.329
assisted world, but people like you and I,
who kind of ended it up in it by default

01:47:35.009 --> 01:47:41.099
and now are sort of 20 years in realize
that you, it would be helpful to have.

01:47:41.909 --> 01:47:47.219
Some forms of regulation and
standardization and at the same time, that

01:47:47.219 --> 01:47:48.719
can very quickly kill the whole thing.

01:47:49.379 --> 01:47:49.469
Yeah.

01:47:49.499 --> 01:47:52.409
Rupert Isaacson: And how
do you dance that line?

01:47:52.559 --> 01:47:55.649
And the answer is that any of us
says, well, we don't know, but if

01:47:55.649 --> 01:47:57.599
we don't try, then shame on us.

01:47:58.199 --> 01:48:01.949
So I can see the, I can see
that the real value there.

01:48:02.059 --> 01:48:03.859
Your, the, the meeting that's coming.

01:48:03.859 --> 01:48:10.759
So listeners, we're, we're doing this
interview in March, early March of 2025.

01:48:10.759 --> 01:48:15.169
And so Emma, you've just said this
is meeting will happen on the 8th

01:48:15.169 --> 01:48:18.829
of April, but presumably if you're
listening, if you find this podcast

01:48:18.829 --> 01:48:22.099
in a year from now, whatever,
there'll be more meetings coming up.

01:48:22.489 --> 01:48:26.509
These AGMs that are happening at Hartley,
are they open, just generally open?

01:48:26.509 --> 01:48:27.619
Anyone can attend?

01:48:28.009 --> 01:48:30.169
It's and get information or, or, or Yeah.

01:48:30.169 --> 01:48:30.589
How does it go?

01:48:31.429 --> 01:48:32.359
Emma Hutchison: It's for membership.

01:48:32.359 --> 01:48:34.969
We're kind of, again, we've been playing
around with the membership a little

01:48:34.969 --> 01:48:38.989
bit, but we're now kind of, changing
it so that you can, but what if you

01:48:38.989 --> 01:48:42.679
Rupert Isaacson: wanted to just
come and get information and Okay.

01:48:42.679 --> 01:48:44.149
All the, all the lads are together.

01:48:44.659 --> 01:48:47.299
Do you have anything that would be
open to say it was me and I wanted

01:48:47.299 --> 01:48:49.639
to come and I'm not a member, but
I wanna find out more about it.

01:48:50.509 --> 01:48:53.269
Can I come or how would it work?

01:48:53.659 --> 01:48:53.869
Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

01:48:53.869 --> 01:48:54.524
I think as I.

01:48:58.969 --> 01:48:59.779
Website.

01:49:00.079 --> 01:49:02.589
There's an awful lot of
membership information on that.

01:49:02.989 --> 01:49:06.319
And we are starting to put more
information on, we're doing things

01:49:06.319 --> 01:49:07.699
that they're calling airtime.

01:49:08.119 --> 01:49:12.019
So we've got a lady who is running
Zooms, and again, it can be for

01:49:12.019 --> 01:49:15.349
members, but again, there are other
people that you can come in and learn

01:49:15.349 --> 01:49:17.509
from these things because again, you
don't know whether you wanna sign

01:49:17.509 --> 01:49:18.979
up for this to start with or not.

01:49:18.979 --> 01:49:19.069
Sure.

01:49:20.509 --> 01:49:22.099
Try before you buy almost, don't you?

01:49:22.159 --> 01:49:22.549
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

01:49:22.709 --> 01:49:25.229
Emma Hutchison: And then at the,
the, the one at Har, there's lots of

01:49:25.229 --> 01:49:30.149
different speakers from all sorts of
different modalities talking about.

01:49:30.149 --> 01:49:30.389
So could

01:49:30.389 --> 01:49:32.219
Rupert Isaacson: someone buy a
ticket, for example, to that HAR

01:49:32.369 --> 01:49:33.989
event and just come and listen?

01:49:34.224 --> 01:49:34.444
Emma Hutchison: Yes.

01:49:34.914 --> 01:49:35.204
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:49:35.204 --> 01:49:35.444
Yeah.

01:49:35.874 --> 01:49:36.164
Okay.

01:49:36.164 --> 01:49:36.404
Yeah.

01:49:37.634 --> 01:49:37.874
Emma Hutchison: I think we

01:49:37.874 --> 01:49:39.154
Rupert Isaacson: need some
horse for people to come there.

01:49:39.224 --> 01:49:39.514
Yeah.

01:49:39.519 --> 01:49:39.599
Yeah.

01:49:39.929 --> 01:49:42.119
Emma Hutchison: Information
will be on that on the website.

01:49:42.869 --> 01:49:42.959
Okay.

01:49:42.959 --> 01:49:46.589
So that's, I think, as I say, and then
the whole thing with qualifications,

01:49:46.589 --> 01:49:49.739
again, I would love to have something
where, you know, this, somebody's

01:49:49.739 --> 01:49:51.904
got this qualification that
they're at such and such a level.

01:49:52.094 --> 01:49:52.384
Yeah.

01:49:52.484 --> 01:49:52.824
But as

01:49:52.824 --> 01:49:55.589
Emma Hutchison: you know, there's 1,001
different qualifications out there.

01:49:55.859 --> 01:49:59.249
So what this partnership is trying
to do is trying to map all the

01:49:59.249 --> 01:50:03.209
different qualifications, but at
least, you know, you come into

01:50:03.209 --> 01:50:09.089
this as a, a counselor or dad who's
wanting to, to look for somebody.

01:50:09.359 --> 01:50:11.819
You can see where all
these qualifications go.

01:50:11.819 --> 01:50:14.909
And that one is level, that one
that isn't level with that one.

01:50:15.119 --> 01:50:18.989
So that's piece in itself is
being kind of done at the moment.

01:50:19.829 --> 01:50:24.899
Rupert Isaacson: So we should probably
get you, info on our program levels

01:50:24.899 --> 01:50:29.279
and what those mean in terms of
skill sets so that you Yeah, okay.

01:50:29.429 --> 01:50:30.059
That makes sense.

01:50:30.059 --> 01:50:36.349
Because yeah, for example a horse
boy level two in terms of if you've

01:50:36.349 --> 01:50:39.649
gone through the evaluation process,
not just the certification course.

01:50:39.739 --> 01:50:39.799
Yeah.

01:50:39.899 --> 01:50:46.709
ERA in Ireland will ensure you if
you, if we have gone taken that

01:50:46.709 --> 01:50:47.969
person through the evaluation.

01:50:47.999 --> 01:50:51.929
'cause we then know their standard
of equine care, not just their

01:50:51.929 --> 01:50:53.429
standard of training and riding.

01:50:53.939 --> 01:50:58.139
But we realize as, for example, horse
boy grows, we now have to evolve that

01:50:58.499 --> 01:51:04.619
so that w we can go to the next level
of, okay, how do we inspect these yards?

01:51:05.009 --> 01:51:07.349
Because just 'cause they went
through it and did well two years

01:51:07.349 --> 01:51:09.959
ago doesn't mean they are where they
are now and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

01:51:10.079 --> 01:51:12.389
And of course a lot of organizations
have gone through this in the

01:51:12.389 --> 01:51:13.889
past, like the BHS and whatever.

01:51:13.889 --> 01:51:16.049
But it's, it's a learning
curve for all of us.

01:51:16.049 --> 01:51:16.979
And it's, it's true.

01:51:16.979 --> 01:51:18.449
I think we have to work together.

01:51:19.139 --> 01:51:20.789
Emma Hutchison: But I think that's
the big thing to start with.

01:51:20.789 --> 01:51:25.109
It's been about getting everybody to
buy in to working together because,

01:51:25.559 --> 01:51:28.589
you know, 10 years ago people were
not prepared to work together.

01:51:28.589 --> 01:51:28.590
No.

01:51:28.979 --> 01:51:32.999
And now it's really coming together
and it's been, it's really positive.

01:51:32.999 --> 01:51:36.569
So if we can get that and then
we can suddenly start to say,

01:51:36.569 --> 01:51:39.599
well, let's start to put some
standards that we work towards.

01:51:39.599 --> 01:51:39.979
And yeah.

01:51:40.144 --> 01:51:40.644
So that's.

01:51:42.904 --> 01:51:44.944
Rupert Isaacson: Well, if with
your permission, I'll, I'll,

01:51:45.034 --> 01:51:48.724
I'll try to get a couple of
people down to that on April 8th.

01:51:48.724 --> 01:51:52.714
I, myself can't because I'm gonna be in
the US but I'm thinking automatically

01:51:52.714 --> 01:51:56.654
of Nicole Gillard, who runs our place
down in Froom, which is, you know,

01:51:56.654 --> 01:51:58.814
relatively like you as an inventor.

01:51:58.844 --> 01:52:02.494
And they have the they have
medical students coming out from

01:52:02.494 --> 01:52:07.234
Bristol University doing their
electives and mental health going

01:52:07.234 --> 01:52:10.584
to move the Mind, which is, it's,
that's the name of the place.

01:52:10.584 --> 01:52:13.214
So it's now logical yes.

01:52:13.214 --> 01:52:14.864
To add everybody to this network.

01:52:14.864 --> 01:52:19.154
And I, it what I want listeners, the
reason I'm, I'm going on about this

01:52:19.154 --> 01:52:23.574
and asking these questions of Emma,
is, is as our field evolves the only

01:52:23.574 --> 01:52:27.684
way it's going to really serve the,
the number of people it needs to is

01:52:27.684 --> 01:52:32.904
if it effectively becomes part of the
National Health Service or is if it's in

01:52:32.904 --> 01:52:37.284
the USA is funded by just automatically
by the big insurance companies.

01:52:37.404 --> 01:52:41.514
And I'm sitting here in Germany and
that is actually the case, the what's

01:52:41.514 --> 01:52:48.684
called the Curatorium for te, which
is the, the sort of Health Department

01:52:48.714 --> 01:52:52.854
of Therapeutic Writing is, and has
been a wing of the government health

01:52:52.854 --> 01:52:56.184
department for like three decades.

01:52:56.544 --> 01:52:59.514
So they, they, they have
really led the charge on this.

01:53:00.024 --> 01:53:04.584
But the, the difficulty can be that not.

01:53:05.139 --> 01:53:12.729
Every equine assisted need can
necessarily be met by every modality.

01:53:12.999 --> 01:53:18.069
So the curatorium itself is running into
some issues of its own limitations, and

01:53:18.069 --> 01:53:20.109
I think that's the same for all of us.

01:53:20.139 --> 01:53:23.739
So there might be someone that comes
to my program and actually saying,

01:53:23.739 --> 01:53:27.219
well, you know, actually that person
might be much, much, much better

01:53:27.219 --> 01:53:30.759
served by horseback, but a, I need
to know about horseback for that.

01:53:30.759 --> 01:53:32.439
BI need a relationship with horseback.

01:53:32.679 --> 01:53:35.889
We need to be, not be in competition
with each other, and we need to really

01:53:35.889 --> 01:53:42.399
understand what the other one does
so we can make, so that we can come

01:53:42.399 --> 01:53:48.009
across as a, as a, as a, as a body
of professionals rather than a bunch

01:53:48.009 --> 01:53:52.989
of bossy horsey people in fields or
looking at each other suspiciously.

01:53:53.299 --> 01:53:57.229
Which as you say, 10 years ago,
it, it was, despite the very good

01:53:57.229 --> 01:54:01.339
work that was being done, have you
found that there is, you say, got a

01:54:01.339 --> 01:54:04.379
hundred members now on the register.

01:54:04.379 --> 01:54:05.159
That's impressive.

01:54:05.549 --> 01:54:11.759
How have you managed to get the word
out there and people to buy in and

01:54:12.959 --> 01:54:16.439
what's, what's the message that you've,
and what's the outreach you've done?

01:54:17.549 --> 01:54:20.249
Emma Hutchison: I mean, we obviously
had quite a rush to start with because

01:54:20.249 --> 01:54:21.959
everybody kind of heard about it.

01:54:22.569 --> 01:54:26.649
And then it, it, it just, it media.

01:54:32.079 --> 01:54:36.339
To give yourself a voice, to be
heard, to learn from everybody else.

01:54:36.339 --> 01:54:38.469
I mean, that's, you know,
I'm a great one for saying,

01:54:38.469 --> 01:54:39.759
everybody learns from everybody.

01:54:40.119 --> 01:54:42.789
You might learn how you don't wanna
do something, but you learn how

01:54:42.789 --> 01:54:43.929
you do wanna do something else.

01:54:44.019 --> 01:54:48.699
I was course last week and, you know,
you just, just learn from everybody.

01:54:48.699 --> 01:54:51.639
It's, it's so, this is a,
it's a huge opportunity.

01:54:51.639 --> 01:54:54.249
Don't be so stubborn and
think, oh no, I'm doing fine.

01:54:54.249 --> 01:54:55.809
I'm, I'm absolutely, you know,

01:54:55.809 --> 01:54:55.899
not

01:54:56.349 --> 01:54:58.839
Emma Hutchison: doing, yes, you might
be doing a fantastic job, but you

01:54:58.839 --> 01:55:02.229
can do an even better job by learning
from somebody else that might want

01:55:02.229 --> 01:55:03.309
to do photography or something.

01:55:03.819 --> 01:55:04.539
Rupert Isaacson: No, exactly.

01:55:04.539 --> 01:55:09.339
Exactly, exactly, exactly that and,
and, and your whole mentorship system.

01:55:09.339 --> 01:55:11.769
It's, it's, it's, it's
brilliant and it's original.

01:55:11.919 --> 01:55:14.109
You think it's like the way
you were talking about it.

01:55:14.229 --> 01:55:14.469
Oh yeah.

01:55:14.469 --> 01:55:17.169
And we do this and we do, and we have
these, you know, this team down south who

01:55:17.169 --> 01:55:21.489
come up and these, but it's actually a bit
mind blowing if you are listening to this

01:55:21.639 --> 01:55:31.569
from where I'm sitting, because you just
answered in one sentence the dilemma of

01:55:32.139 --> 01:55:39.309
just the, that gap between manpower and
funding that almost every organization

01:55:39.309 --> 01:55:42.129
hits as it becomes a bit successful.

01:55:43.059 --> 01:55:43.394
So the other

01:55:43.394 --> 01:55:45.579
Emma Hutchison: thing, just,
just on that, the funding thing.

01:55:45.579 --> 01:55:49.089
So again, what we've done is
we've had to move away from your

01:55:50.049 --> 01:55:54.369
standard stuff, and we've been
working with our local council a.

01:55:55.629 --> 01:55:58.669
And in Scotland we have a, like
an employability spectrum, which

01:55:58.669 --> 01:56:01.369
is one, one being you don't have
a job, five being that you have a

01:56:01.369 --> 01:56:03.439
job and everything else in between.

01:56:04.039 --> 01:56:07.849
And I managed to convince the head
of the employability department

01:56:08.449 --> 01:56:14.059
that we could provide a service to
people who were pre one and one.

01:56:14.989 --> 01:56:19.369
So basically somebody who is not able to
leave the house or their wellbeing is so

01:56:19.369 --> 01:56:23.209
bad that they're just so anxious about,
they can't even think about getting a job.

01:56:24.769 --> 01:56:25.789
They're not gonna get to five.

01:56:26.179 --> 01:56:28.069
It doesn't matter who you
invite them to go and see.

01:56:28.249 --> 01:56:31.189
So let us spend some time with
them, we can work on them.

01:56:31.769 --> 01:56:35.459
And then we work on them
pre one, we do one and two.

01:56:35.459 --> 01:56:40.049
And then at that stage, they're ready to
engage with other people, social workers,

01:56:40.049 --> 01:56:44.519
whoever it's employability organizations
or other members of the employability team

01:56:45.089 --> 01:56:48.629
who can then say, right now let's think
about what you might want to do as a job.

01:56:48.629 --> 01:56:51.959
Because now you're confident enough,
you're able to interact with other people.

01:56:52.269 --> 01:56:54.639
You're getting up regularly,
you've got some sort of routine.

01:56:54.909 --> 01:56:57.099
We can help put all these things in place.

01:56:57.519 --> 01:57:01.929
And that has opened up funding to
us from a council point of view,

01:57:01.929 --> 01:57:03.459
which we didn't have previous.

01:57:03.639 --> 01:57:08.459
And that has worked with both the
youth development program and with it's

01:57:08.459 --> 01:57:10.499
enabled us to start a community program.

01:57:10.499 --> 01:57:13.649
So it's basically a week long
program where we work with horses,

01:57:13.649 --> 01:57:14.879
do all the other activities.

01:57:15.409 --> 01:57:19.249
And then the thing is we, we
working with the Ukrainian refugees.

01:57:19.854 --> 01:57:20.454
As well.

01:57:20.574 --> 01:57:22.854
So that's a new thing that
we're gonna be starting.

01:57:22.854 --> 01:57:27.984
And it's a blended program, so
there will be some online stuff.

01:57:28.014 --> 01:57:32.214
And again, you think you can't do this
work online, you can random, but we

01:57:32.214 --> 01:57:35.794
learned that through Covid we weren't
able to deliver our programs here

01:57:35.824 --> 01:57:37.024
'cause we couldn't have anybody here.

01:57:37.384 --> 01:57:42.154
So we, we put together some videos and we
talked and we did some zooms with a video

01:57:42.154 --> 01:57:44.494
of the horse and we were able to do that.

01:57:44.984 --> 01:57:49.244
And that enables you, yes, ultimately you
always want people to be able to come and

01:57:49.244 --> 01:57:54.674
interact with the horses, but sometimes
cost distance numbers exclude that.

01:57:55.094 --> 01:58:01.964
So if you can put together this kind of
stuff then you can feed it to people.

01:58:02.144 --> 01:58:03.794
They can make all these changes.

01:58:03.914 --> 01:58:06.944
They might not make as much of a
change as if they're actually here

01:58:07.244 --> 01:58:10.454
and then they can maybe come here for
a day to put all that into practice.

01:58:11.174 --> 01:58:14.114
So that's what we're doing with some
of these, the Ukrainian community,

01:58:14.114 --> 01:58:17.594
because again, we've got do some work to
convince them that they wanna actually

01:58:17.594 --> 01:58:19.004
be involved in these programs to start.

01:58:19.544 --> 01:58:23.724
So we're just about to take on a
Ukrainian social worker who will, will

01:58:23.724 --> 01:58:28.974
become part of our team and is funded
through this, this employability program.

01:58:29.544 --> 01:58:31.914
Rupert Isaacson: And is that social
worker sitting in Ukraine and will come

01:58:31.914 --> 01:58:34.464
in by Zoom or Is is here in the uk.

01:58:34.674 --> 01:58:35.514
Emma Hutchison: He's an immigrant himself.

01:58:35.519 --> 01:58:38.124
That's, that's come over here and
he's actually been working with

01:58:38.124 --> 01:58:39.654
the council for the last few years.

01:58:40.174 --> 01:58:42.244
And they've allowed him to join our team.

01:58:42.754 --> 01:58:45.484
Rupert Isaacson: Now when you say
you, you approach the council.

01:58:45.799 --> 01:58:46.219
Okay.

01:58:46.219 --> 01:58:52.639
And the council's got these Ukrainian
refugees, or the council's got these

01:58:52.689 --> 01:58:56.679
people who can't get out of bed and,
you know, they're pre one or one.

01:58:58.989 --> 01:59:01.689
Not everyone knows how
to approach a council.

01:59:01.869 --> 01:59:02.139
Emma.

01:59:03.379 --> 01:59:04.069
How do you do that?

01:59:06.134 --> 01:59:07.424
Emma Hutchison: It's
just about relationships.

01:59:07.639 --> 01:59:13.309
I mean, you have to basically do Italy,
find out who people are in councils.

01:59:13.309 --> 01:59:14.689
There are so many different departments,

01:59:15.259 --> 01:59:17.779
Rupert Isaacson: but people also
get elected and, and come and go.

01:59:17.779 --> 01:59:22.519
So, I mean, let's say you're trying to
build something over two to four years.

01:59:22.729 --> 01:59:26.629
You might be dealing with this
one person is, is sympathetic

01:59:26.629 --> 01:59:27.679
and then someone else comes in.

01:59:27.679 --> 01:59:31.519
And so how do you navigate, you know,
a a how do you, a, how do you lo

01:59:32.179 --> 01:59:34.609
find, get that relationship going?

01:59:34.699 --> 01:59:35.929
Like a lot of people are just shy.

01:59:35.959 --> 01:59:37.369
What door do you even knock on?

01:59:37.489 --> 01:59:38.209
How do you do it?

01:59:38.209 --> 01:59:39.469
Do you send someone an email?

01:59:39.979 --> 01:59:40.849
How does it begin?

01:59:41.329 --> 01:59:42.289
And then how do you navigate?

01:59:42.889 --> 01:59:43.069
Yeah.

01:59:43.279 --> 01:59:43.339
Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

01:59:43.339 --> 01:59:47.569
We started by, by contacting our local
counselors, and you're right, they do

01:59:47.569 --> 01:59:51.409
change on a regular basis and you've
got your different, you know, your

01:59:51.409 --> 01:59:55.729
different parties, get them all out,
invite them all out, get them to come

01:59:55.729 --> 01:59:57.379
and see the work that you're doing.

01:59:57.589 --> 01:59:58.879
I mean, as I say, we really, do you find

01:59:58.879 --> 02:00:00.679
Rupert Isaacson: they generally
will, are they usually pretty

02:00:01.129 --> 02:00:04.339
Emma Hutchison: They absolutely will try
a local productive, we've had local MSPs,

02:00:04.339 --> 02:00:06.229
we've had our mps, we've had also, so,

02:00:06.374 --> 02:00:06.664
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

02:00:06.664 --> 02:00:09.229
So, so in find out who
they are and invite them.

02:00:09.679 --> 02:00:10.069
Emma Hutchison: Yep.

02:00:10.909 --> 02:00:11.029
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:00:12.199 --> 02:00:14.839
Emma Hutchison: People don't understand
this type of work until they see it.

02:00:14.869 --> 02:00:15.649
We are very lucky.

02:00:15.649 --> 02:00:19.309
We have got Jock who is an amazing
kind of sales front person to

02:00:19.309 --> 02:00:21.259
do the real and he loves it.

02:00:21.259 --> 02:00:24.259
You know, standing up in front of
and giving demonstrations is not

02:00:24.259 --> 02:00:25.759
everybody's back, but he loves it.

02:00:25.759 --> 02:00:27.289
So we're very lucky that we do have that.

02:00:27.739 --> 02:00:27.919
And

02:00:27.919 --> 02:00:31.609
Emma Hutchison: then again, the
employability team, the, I got to

02:00:31.609 --> 02:00:34.879
know through inviting out the head
of the employability team, he had

02:00:34.879 --> 02:00:37.219
no money for probably eight years.

02:00:37.939 --> 02:00:40.969
And then one day I phoned him and he
said, you're not gonna believe this.

02:00:40.969 --> 02:00:43.489
The government have just granted
us some additional employment

02:00:43.489 --> 02:00:44.839
funding through this new scheme.

02:00:45.199 --> 02:00:49.669
So yes, put a grant in and we'll work
together and we'll come up with a plan.

02:00:49.939 --> 02:00:51.259
And that's basically what we've done.

02:00:51.259 --> 02:00:53.919
And through that we have managed to got

02:00:53.919 --> 02:00:54.129
Rupert Isaacson: it to

02:00:54.519 --> 02:00:55.029
Emma Hutchison: get all this.

02:00:55.029 --> 02:00:56.919
But I mean, it's just, it's just,

02:00:57.009 --> 02:00:58.839
Rupert Isaacson: but without
that relationship, he would never

02:00:58.839 --> 02:00:59.829
have called you to say that?

02:01:00.249 --> 02:01:02.349
Emma Hutchison: No, it's, I
mean, it's still, it's not

02:01:02.349 --> 02:01:04.179
an a well known enough thing.

02:01:04.179 --> 02:01:07.929
People certainly up here, people are
not going, oh, that send somebody

02:01:07.929 --> 02:01:09.519
to EQU assist, they'll sort it out.

02:01:09.519 --> 02:01:10.569
Not, not in a million years.

02:01:10.569 --> 02:01:11.799
You have gotta fight your corner.

02:01:12.039 --> 02:01:16.149
So you've gotta get it's numbers,
you've gotta contact loads of people,

02:01:16.149 --> 02:01:20.919
you've gotta constantly follow it up,
invite people out, send them brochures.

02:01:21.009 --> 02:01:23.289
I mean, it's just general kind
of sales, isn't it really?

02:01:23.289 --> 02:01:26.049
Which when you're delivering at the
same time is really difficult to do.

02:01:26.589 --> 02:01:27.219
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

02:01:27.219 --> 02:01:31.049
And looking after your horses and, and
you know, I, I think by their very nature,

02:01:31.049 --> 02:01:37.199
you know, a a lot of us that get into this
work are, are fairly maverick and not.

02:01:38.249 --> 02:01:42.479
Great lovers of bureaucracy and
authoritative systems, but there

02:01:42.479 --> 02:01:45.389
comes to be a, there comes a
point where if we dunno how to

02:01:45.389 --> 02:01:46.649
access them, we can't survive.

02:01:47.159 --> 02:01:50.929
And again, I, I think there's
just a real need for you to give

02:01:50.929 --> 02:01:52.459
this sort of mentorship to people.

02:01:52.559 --> 02:01:56.819
You know, if you've got someone who's
standing in a field in Staffordshire doing

02:01:56.819 --> 02:02:00.839
an amazing job, but no one knows who,
who that person is, are they gonna be

02:02:00.839 --> 02:02:06.629
there in five years able to do it still
without knowing that you can find out.

02:02:06.839 --> 02:02:11.189
And how would you even know
to what department to look up?

02:02:12.599 --> 02:02:14.519
Emma Hutchison: I know because it's not
this, again, with us it's different.

02:02:14.519 --> 02:02:16.649
Aberdeen City is different
to Aberdeen Shire,

02:02:17.429 --> 02:02:17.609
right?

02:02:17.939 --> 02:02:18.584
Emma Hutchison: It's just literally it.

02:02:18.604 --> 02:02:23.349
You just have to keep on and keep asking
and keep inviting and just I mean things

02:02:23.349 --> 02:02:28.209
like, I mean, we are a charity so we can
get, go to trust and grants, but again,

02:02:28.809 --> 02:02:30.339
you need to build that relationship.

02:02:30.399 --> 02:02:36.039
You are going to get regular funding from
those funders who understand, appreciate,

02:02:36.099 --> 02:02:37.539
and have a relationship with you.

02:02:38.079 --> 02:02:42.399
So it's just the relationship
building for an organization like

02:02:42.399 --> 02:02:43.989
ours is really, really important.

02:02:43.989 --> 02:02:47.799
And that's what's allowed us to
keep on and grow and diversify.

02:02:47.799 --> 02:02:50.769
And again, you have to think out
the box just because you're working

02:02:50.769 --> 02:02:52.059
with kids and that's what you love.

02:02:52.869 --> 02:02:56.199
Funding school children for us
is virtually impossible because

02:02:56.649 --> 02:03:01.689
everybody up here says that the kids
should be in school and it's funded

02:03:01.689 --> 02:03:03.069
by the government and the school.

02:03:03.069 --> 02:03:04.929
Well, it doesn't happen like that.

02:03:04.929 --> 02:03:05.709
We all know that.

02:03:06.429 --> 02:03:10.659
But the lottery and people like that,
they won't fund kids during school

02:03:10.659 --> 02:03:12.489
hours that fund it outside school hours.

02:03:13.059 --> 02:03:14.919
But our courses run during school hours.

02:03:14.919 --> 02:03:18.819
So it's just, and I mean, I'm quite
happy because I say we, I've gone

02:03:18.819 --> 02:03:22.299
down all sorts of different paths and
we've diversified and we've changed

02:03:22.299 --> 02:03:26.289
this, and we've adapted that because
you have to or you won't survive.

02:03:26.714 --> 02:03:26.954
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

02:03:27.674 --> 02:03:27.914
Absolutely.

02:03:28.774 --> 02:03:32.494
Well, I do think people
should be in contact with you.

02:03:32.494 --> 02:03:35.704
So can, and here's another question.

02:03:35.704 --> 02:03:40.744
If people want mentorship in
how to grow and develop their

02:03:40.744 --> 02:03:43.984
organizations like that, do you
offer trainings and courses in that?

02:03:43.984 --> 02:03:45.124
Or is it more informal?

02:03:45.124 --> 02:03:49.234
Can, but can people actually hire you
as a consultant for this kind of thing?

02:03:49.234 --> 02:03:52.114
Because the, the, the kind of
information that you're giving Emma,

02:03:52.114 --> 02:03:58.744
it's, it's very needed and there's a
bit of a paucity of people out there

02:03:58.744 --> 02:04:01.174
who really can help people navigate.

02:04:02.194 --> 02:04:04.024
So can they contact you and Yeah,

02:04:04.324 --> 02:04:04.954
Emma Hutchison: absolutely.

02:04:05.414 --> 02:04:06.494
Rupert Isaacson: So, so
give us all the contacts.

02:04:06.974 --> 02:04:12.164
Emma Hutchison: So our website
is www horseback org uk

02:04:12.464 --> 02:04:14.984
Rupert Isaacson: horseback org uk.

02:04:15.674 --> 02:04:15.944
Emma Hutchison: Yep.

02:04:16.374 --> 02:04:17.754
My email is.

02:04:19.299 --> 02:04:20.589
horseback.org

02:04:20.709 --> 02:04:21.159
uk.

02:04:22.269 --> 02:04:22.449
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

02:04:22.999 --> 02:04:25.549
Emma Hutchison: You can follow us
on Facebook again, just horseback

02:04:25.879 --> 02:04:29.929
uk and we are on Instagram, we're
on TikTok, believe it or not.

02:04:30.559 --> 02:04:32.569
So all of the socials, we're on all those.

02:04:32.569 --> 02:04:36.169
We do try and keep those up to date so
that you one of the stories of what's

02:04:36.169 --> 02:04:39.349
going on and everything, because again,
the funders like to see what's going on.

02:04:39.349 --> 02:04:40.099
They like to see.

02:04:40.279 --> 02:04:40.609
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

02:04:41.479 --> 02:04:42.409
It's all about story.

02:04:42.589 --> 02:04:42.769
Yeah.

02:04:42.774 --> 02:04:42.954
Emma Hutchison: Yeah.

02:04:43.459 --> 02:04:43.969
Absolutely.

02:04:44.089 --> 02:04:45.079
We'd love to hear from anybody.

02:04:45.709 --> 02:04:47.269
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Emma, it's brilliant.

02:04:47.269 --> 02:04:51.859
I, I, I know you've got to go
and get on with your evening.

02:04:51.859 --> 02:04:54.109
I hope that we can reconvene.

02:04:54.299 --> 02:04:55.319
I'd like to have you back on.

02:04:56.099 --> 02:04:59.099
I can think of more questions and
I know people have more questions

02:04:59.099 --> 02:05:03.199
for you and and for Jay also, it
might be nice to get Jock mm-hmm.

02:05:03.439 --> 02:05:04.099
And TAF on.

02:05:04.099 --> 02:05:04.159
Yeah.

02:05:04.459 --> 02:05:06.559
Because there's just
such a wealth of info.

02:05:07.129 --> 02:05:12.959
So, maybe we can agree that this
is the first of two or three

02:05:12.959 --> 02:05:14.579
rather than just a one-off.

02:05:15.029 --> 02:05:15.119
Yeah.

02:05:15.219 --> 02:05:18.279
Rupert Isaacson: Because people will
have, people will have questions.

02:05:19.129 --> 02:05:23.449
So horseback do org.uk

02:05:24.739 --> 02:05:28.729
and emma@horseback.org.uk.

02:05:29.599 --> 02:05:29.989
All right.

02:05:30.889 --> 02:05:31.309
Alright.

02:05:31.339 --> 02:05:35.539
Well, until the next time, thank you so
much for sharing everything you've shared.

02:05:35.539 --> 02:05:36.919
It's been.

02:05:38.434 --> 02:05:42.004
Educational, not just interesting,
like I've learned like, well,

02:05:42.004 --> 02:05:44.764
I'm thinking, oh, I've gotta get
a photography thing really good.

02:05:46.384 --> 02:05:46.804
Alright.

02:05:46.804 --> 02:05:47.674
Till the next time.

02:05:48.129 --> 02:05:48.419
Emma Hutchison: Okay.

02:05:50.199 --> 02:05:53.319
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

02:05:53.859 --> 02:05:58.759
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02:05:58.769 --> 02:06:02.939
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02:06:58.554 --> 02:07:01.364
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