Robby: The Brand ED Podcast with Robby Fowler, episode 72.
How to work with a designer to grow your consulting, training, or coaching
personal brand with special guests, Jason Clemett and Mike Brennan.
Too many personal brands are stuck pitching to everybody, getting heard
by nobody, and settling for anybody.
This show helps high-integrity brands secure and serve-the-socks-off
more of your dream clients.
We'll go beyond marketing hacks and discover how to grow a thriving,
personal brand business based on radical empathy for your clients.
Welcome to the show today.
We're going to have a good time because this is a little round table discussion
that you're going to get to listen in on with two of my very good friends
and phenomenal designers and artists.
It's Mike Brennan and Jason Clement.
And together, we're going to talk about design and what you, as a personal brand
need to know when you're working with a designer to build your personal brand.
So let's jump into today's episode.
Welcome to the podcast.
So I've got Mike Brennan who is here and I'll get him to
introduce himself in a second.
And Jason Clement.
We all come from a design background.
You guys are in the day-to-day of design more than I am currently.
But I thought this would be a great time to get together talk about creativity,
to talk about design, and to help folks listening who aren't designers.
We're going to invite them into the little geek club and you guys aren't
get to listen in to understand how to work with their designer at, to get
the most out of their designer and what they need to be paying attention to and
not paying attention to when it comes to personal branding and their design.
Mike, let's start with you just go ahead and introduce yourself and tell
us a little bit about what you do, and then we'll turn it over to Jason.
Mike Brennan: Sure.
Yeah.
So Mike Brandon and I say that I am a creator and communicator who
tells stories on pages and stages.
And that means a couple of things.
One on the creator side, obviously designer, like you said, I've been
doing graphic design for years and years as well as illustration.
So sometimes that illustration crosses over into design and I get to do
projects where kind of both happen in logo settings or other settings.
But I also do a lot of like pop culture art and things that lean a
little bit more towards fine arts.
And then on the communicator side, I have a podcast creative chats, and I also speak
about establishing a daily creative habit.
Love all things, creativity.
Robby: Yes.
Very cool.
All right, Jason, I should let you go first.
Unless you've got something that rhymes like Mike does.
Oh, that was good.
I kept thinking
I was like, oh no.
Mike Brennan: Hanging out with my copywriter, friends too
Robby: yeah.
So Jason, tell us a little bit about, who you are, what you do.
Jason Clement: So I'm a graphic designer as well.
I've done drag design my whole life.
I started in I've always loved to draw and I started in high
school, I had a mentor who.
Introduce me to the world of design.
There's an action, there's a natural extension there and
I just fell in love with it.
And I've been doing it every sentence.
I do a lot of branding and websites for coaches, consultants,
speakers, people like that.
Robby: You've probably seen Mike and or Jason's work if you're in
our streams or in our worlds at all.
So both of you guys got started in some sort of design young would both of you.
I know Mike, would.
Jason, would you also consider yourself an artist?
Jason Clement: I think so.
I think there's a level of art to creating whether it's a business, a
website for a business or a brand, or I think there's art, there's
artists involved with all that.
And I would definitely call myself that because that's where I started.
Robby: I didn't start out as an artist.
I can't draw like stick figures . So I'm the designer
that the artists typically go.
Ah, but you're not even an artist.
I will freely admit, Nope, I am Okay.
I would love to know from each one you, what's your favorite thing to do?
Either art or design.
What do you enjoy doing the most out of the things that you regularly get to do?
Mike Brennan: I'm already doing that.
So I, it's not really that hard for me to think of it's doing portraits.
I do a lot of digital portraits, so I have an iPad pro and use the apple pencil.
And when that thing came out and those things came together for me,
it was a great experience for me.
Because I had tablets in the past and that whole disconnect of looking one
place and drawing in another place.
I could never really master that.
But when the iPad pro came out and the pencil that really helped me a
lot, make it feel more intuitive.
And so doing portraits because I just love people and I love making connections.
And there's just something about doing people's portraits in a loose style
that really resonates with who I am.
Robby: So when you do that at an event, are you, I padding that, are
you good, old canvas kind of thing?
How do you do that when you're doing that on a stage or something?
Mike Brennan: Yeah.
So most of the time, I'd say probably like 90% of the time I'm
doing digital, I'm doing iPad.
A lot of the canvas stuff either.
If I'm selling something or doing something after the fact I'll be
getting like a prints made high quality of prints on canvas.
And then I can always hand embellish them.
And every once in a while I have the need to get a little dirty and sloppy and
sling some paint around and stuff like that, and just kinda get back to my roots.
But something about because of being so much in the design world
and already being in a digital platform, harnessing that stuff.
More tools that, that kind of mimic analog, if you will and the messy textures
and all those kinds of things, I really enjoy bringing those worlds together.
And of course having undoing and not cleaning up, paint and things
like that, it's really it really.
And also, I don't have things piling up around me like canvases and whatnot.
After a while, you can be like, I'm running out of room, but digital
clutter, is a little different.
Robby: Yeah, I think I could close my eyes and get the undo shortcut.
No problem with the keyboard.
Like I know the exact ratio from thumb to index finger for undo.
Whoops.
Okay.
So Jason, we, Mike and I get together, we pull some money together.
We send you away to some fabulous location for a week.
And our only request is while you're there chilling and hanging
out for a week by yourself, you got to do some designs just for fun.
What would you do?
Jason Clement: This is a really mixed for me because I really enjoy creating
brands or identities, but that is across crossover there because that, for me, that
still starts on with a pencil and paper.
And so I'll I've been making the transition to iPad because of the pencil.
I love it.
And been doing lot more on my iPad versus a notebook, but I carry a a
field notes with me all the a pencil.
So I love to draw with a pencil.
even like in meetings if you've ever been on a zoom call with
me, except for today, I anything Oh, there's a pretty good chance.
I drew a picture of you all around.
It's just I just sketch, draw all the time.
Cool.
Okay.
it's interesting that the branding starts with sketches for me.
Robby: So folks listening in are likely a personal brand
branding conversation comes up.
They're on.
Having to think about brand logo, design, all of that stuff.
And for most of those folks, it's not the funnest thing for them to think about.
They think about, oh, this is going to cost me a lot of money
or how much money should it cost?
How do I get a good one?
Should I go look over here on some super cheap site and just get something for $5.
So let's help folks out.
We're going to bring you into the inner circle.
We've got three designers here.
A lot of us do design around branding and personal brands.
So let's start with you, Jason.
If a personal brand comes to you and they say, Jason, I need
you to help me with my brand.
Where do you typically start with them?
Jason Clement: Yeah.
I have a little questionnaire.
I walk them through.
But I think what I normally do is like the brand is more
than just creating an identity.
I think I just referred improperly previously.
But, if I'm talking about a brand, I talk about.
That extends multiple things.
So I asked like what other areas that they're involved with.
So are you doing a book?
Do you have lead magnets?
You have a website, all these other things, because I really like to, I,
sweet spot is where I'm happy is when I can create an identity for you and help
you build that But then also let that seep into all your other, all the other
that you created or having created.
I like to know what it is that they do what other areas that
this print is going to be going.
Robby: So Mike, why do to designers and why a personal brand think through that...
of the different places this is going to get used?
Why does that matter for you the designer?
Mike Brennan: Yeah, it matters because of context, right?
Context is key because you don't want to build something to find out you get on
the other end of it and it's useless, or it doesn't work in a variety of contexts.
And so a lot of times people haven't thought through those issues.
And so for us as designers, we need to be thinking about those things because
we want to be, at the end of this, we want you to be happy as a client.
We want to feel good about the work that we've done.
And we want to try to avoid as much as possible, any wrong turns or dead ends.
And so asking as many questions up front as possible, so that there's clarity.
And the other thing I've found is that many times people come and they're
asking for something and it's fairly obvious early on in the conversation
that they're not really sure why they're even asking what they're asking.
Someone told them that they needed a logo.
Someone told them that they need to visual.
they don't really understand why.
They just know that's part of the process that's on the list
of things I need to tick off.
And so I've reached out because this is something I need to have done.
And so having a larger conversation around that to go, okay let's talk
about what the purpose of that is.
And let's try and get some clarity around that so that you're not just checking the
box and saying, okay, I've got that piece done, but that you're being intentional
and clear as far as what it is that you're hoping this is going to accomplish.
Robby: That's good.
So let's stop there.
Let's summarize two things we've already just learned if you're a personal brand.
One of those things is beware of, just the list somebody hands you
that, Hey, you need to go get these things in order to be a personal brand
and just run out there and do them.
And Mike just mentioned have given zero thought as to why.
I'm doing this because somebody told me to do this.
And then what both of the guys mentioned, number two.
When you're looking for a designer or working with a designer on your visual
identity, if they don't ask you the questions that Mike and Jason just
asked you or said that's where they start, then you need to keep looking.
Can we agree, fellas, keep, you don't have a good visual identity brand designer if
they're not asking you these questions.
We've come in.
You've asked me some questions.
You're now helping me think about the visual identity part of my brand, how
that relates to the rest of my brand.
What's the next thing that you help personal brand with, or
think through when it comes to now using and applying that brand?
Where do you see mistakes after Jason or Mike?
You turn over the visual identity assets.
You say, there you go.
Where do you see mistakes?
What advice would you give them about how to take advantage of
what you've just done for them?
Jason Clement: I see this a lot.
I, not so much recently, but in the past I saw a lot where people
just didn't use the things that I.
If I created it, if I create a brand kit for you to follow the K here's
your college, here's your fonts.
Here's things like that.
then I go and I see a lead magnet that they created it and it looks nothing
like all the rules that we set up the followup and I'm and consistency is a key
thing and I'm just like, this is totally not what should have happened here.
I see that a lot where people just don't follow under the rules established.
Robby: So there's your tip number three.
Consistent.
So take what your brand designer gives you for your visual identity.
Number one, use it.
Jason just said, please use it like you paid me for it.
Use it.
Number two, if there's one time to be a Pharisee and be legalistic,
this is the time to be legalistic.
Use it all the time, every single time.
Be consistent, Mike, anything that you would add?
Mike Brennan: I would be in agreement with Jason.
I don't think people think about it in terms of assessing.
So they get assets and maybe they tuck them away someplace.
Hopefully they know where they are because that's sometimes even Hey,
can you send that to me again?
I don't know what I did with the link or where the, whatever.
So hopefully there's enough organization on the other side where people, again,
they've invested in this and then they put it someplace where they can
access it and their team can access.
Easily enough.
And then, like I said, really, it's adopting a mindset that there's a
system around this, that whoever touches anything visually needs to go through,
the style guide that's been set up.
You've paid all this money.
All his effort and work has gone into that.
Why would you have this then not being used and implemented and making sure
that whoever is on your team knows where it is and understands that this is
everything needs to pass through this.
And so having, not only the people who were in charge seeing it as
a system, but then also anybody else who comes into contact or
needs to see it as the system is.
Robby: Let me ask you guys.
How do you organize the stuff you've done for me?
Like logos and that kind of stuff.
And then based on that, what would you recommend to me the personal brand to say,
Hey, and when I turn these over to you.
Like be smart, go organize them this way, store them.
I know this sounds elementary, but this is part of the problem.
We get a call back a week later.
Hey, can you send me my logo?
I just sent that to you seven days ago, a month later.
Hey, can you hit me back with those logos again?
So how do you organize and what advice would you give?
Jason Clement: Yeah.
what I do is I package all the files up, all the various.
File types and and low back package them all up and I'll send them all the files.
I normally create a brand kit, a guidelines PDF that they have that
kind of walks them through everything.
And so normally I send out all that to them, but I also, most in most situations
I'm creating a website or something.
And I also create a page on their website.
I'll say, Hey, you can go to xyz.com/logo or slash brand or whatever it is.
on there you can find, it's another version of your brand kit.
You your local files there.
So they're able to share that with other people.
If they do con come back to me months later and say, Hey, can you
send me a local files again and say, Hey, just go to your website slash
brand and all your stuff is there.
Robby: Yeah, really smart.
Mike, how do you organize your stuff?
And any other advice you would give to somebody?
Mike Brennan: Typically there's a backup system where, so I'm emailing
files, but then also I will either create a Dropbox or Google drive.
And make sure that in there you have your sub folders of here's your
logo and logo types different file types in different color profile.
The, brand kit or style guide, any assets that need to go along with that,
clearly, mark, any fonts used, if that's appropriate, all those things labeled
very clearly in folders of what they are.
And everything has a place where it lives and it's organized at clearly.
And I do more stuff.
That's print or kind of some template stuff.
Not necessarily websites.
So I don't have that whole fancy webpage that Jason's talking
about, but I liked that idea.
I like that idea.
Robby: Shoot Jason at Texas.
Hey, throw this on a page for me, for
Mike Brennan: me up, man.
Robby: So maybe we'll get some examples of what those are that
we'll get Jason to share with us.
You can go everyone listening.
You can go look at one of those and go, oh yeah, I'm going to make
sure my designer gives me one of those pages or you just are Jason.
That's fine.
Okay.
So this is going to be a fun one.
The difference between like print and web or screen, how do
we break that down for folks?
So they understand why are you giving me all these versions?
Or if I go hire somebody cheap and they just give me one
version, why is that a problem?
How would you explain to folks?
Look, when you hire me, I'm going to give you these files in this different formats.
Here's why.
Jason Clement: It's funny because I was thinking about that while Mike was talking
to the number of times, and I'm sure you guys can probably all this happen when
a client calls and says, I'm trying to open the EPS file on the smell opening.
Yup.
So I also included, and I didn't mention this, but I also include a little, a
file type cheat sheet, a PDF when I packaged everything up that basically
Hey, here's, I'm gonna give you a PDF and EPS, what, wherever those file types are.
And this is optimal place to use these file types.
You're open EPS value you're gonn an EPS file place it right.
You're probably not gonna place into a document.
Another designer the yeah.
I have a little cheat sheet in there that kind of gets them started on that.
Robby: Okay, great.
Mike, what would you add to that?
How do you explain to folks why you're giving them these different versions
and when and where they should use.
Mike Brennan: Yeah, it really comes down to educating.
You don't want to get too in the weeds with people, this is rest, or this
is vector, and here's what you know.
But I think having them understand that there are different contexts and context
is important and you don't want a file.
That's too big on a website because it's going to load really slowly and people are
going to not wait around for it to look.
You don't want a really small and lower resolution file logo file for prints,
because then it's going to print out.
It's going to be a little fuzzy and pixelated, and
it's not going to look Right.
Where possible, if I have examples of that, I try to show that so that I
say, sometimes you may have seen this, you've come across this in a magazine.
Somebody had an oops, somebody got fired that day.
That was not a good day for somebody.
And I said, this stuff happens and this is why.
This is why this stuff is important.
And then also, with resolution, there's also, color profiles, understanding
that, there's a printing process.
And so that process requires a different type of coloring as
opposed to what on a screen.
And then there's always conversations.
Sometimes they're a little bit difficult where it's I don't understand why
this looks one way on my screen.
And then another way when I print this out,
What's the deal with that.
And again, really, it comes down to just trying to educate a little
bit more and have people understand that, you're dealing with different
processes, and different, a screen is gonna interact with color very
different than a piece of paper.
And I think the biggest thing is just being patient and open to having
those conversations on both sides.
For a designer, a lot of times we have to back things up and make things
more basic because our world we're dealing with this stuff all the time.
So it's easy to forget that.
Oh yeah.
Like they don't know what that is.
They don't understand the context for that.
So making sure that there's patients and again just an education.
The piece that's there.
And then on the other side, I think it's, where obviously not, everybody's
going to be interested in, to know different degrees of, exactly why
and all that kind of stuff, but at least some working understanding of
why there are all these different file types and what to do with them.
Some reference-based.
Robby: To make sure we're super clear, what the guys are saying is
you really have two worlds that these live in one is something on a screen.
And that's going to usually be on a website.
Maybe you're using it in a PowerPoint presentation or something like that.
And then there's another world.
And that's the world where you work with a printer, anything from the printer, laser
printer in your home office or whatever.
But particularly if you're going to work with a professional printer for
a business card or some sort of sales sheet that you're going to get printed.
Those are two different worlds and they require a version of your logo
that's appropriate for each world.
Jason, if you were recommending to our audience, Hey, if you're
working with a designer on your visual identity, I would recommend
you at least get these file types.
Can you walk us through that?
Jason Clement: Yeah, it sounds really, sounds strange, but the number of
people that have come to me without a vector version of their logo is
insane, or they send me a 150 pages.
JPEG that they got off Facebook say, here's my logo.
So yeah, the number one thing is you want to affect your file.
And again, I don't want to deep into it, but my vector file means you can resize
it to whoever you need needed to be.
It's not going to lose this quality.
It's not going to get junkie quote unquote.
Yup.
so I think that's the number one thing is that you need to get in vector.
And then from that vector file, you can.
Anything else you need.
So I usually give people I think I'd give five different file types
and then, and I think I actually say in there you can pretty much create
anything you want from this vector
Robby: sure you get a vector file from your designer.
That's typically going to end in dot EPS . And you probably don't have
any way of opening that on computer.
That's fine.
That's one.
That's going to go to a printer and you give that to Mike or Jason
or myself, and we're good to go.
We can do anything we need to do from that as well as a professional printer.
Sometimes if they did it in a program like Adobe illustrator, it would be.ai.
And then sometimes it's dot PDF.
So you need some version that's vector.
Mike, what's the other version they need for screen?
Mike Brennan: Yeah.
I typically steer people towards PNG files with a transparent background
because it's most versatile.
Sometimes people say can you give me a JPEG?
And That's fine.
I can give people a JPEG too, but the pitfall that people fall
into sometimes is they're so used to a JPEG and they ask for that.
And then I have to explain the reason why sometimes you see like your logo and this
big ugly white box around it, and then the color of the website, like that's
because there's no transparent background.
It's fused onto a piece of paper.
It's you can't do anything with that.
That's why a PNG with a transparent background is really important.
Robby: So those are the two.
At a bare minimum you need some sort of vector file, probably
dot EPS, and you're totally safe.
And then if you want to use it on a screen, you probably want at least a PNG
file, not a JPEG because that's the one where it's transparent around your logo.
You don't get a rectangle or a square of a solid color behind your logo.
At some point, you're going to want to stick your logo on some other color and
not have this built-in box around it.
At a bare minimum, you should be looking for those two things.
Okay.
Now I'm going to wait us into the deep end real quick.
We all know it's coming.
Okay.
Here's the question.
I'm a personal brand.
You guys sound expensive to me.
Why can't I just go over to fill in the blank Fiverr or some other place
or men or my nephew's friend and just get my logo, whatever I need for $25.
Come on.
You guys are full of it.
Why can't I just go do that, Jason, why can't I just go
pay $25 or $5 and get a logo.
Jason Clement: I mean for me it's about having a relationship with that client and
learning that brand, knowing that brand would be able to create all the other
pieces we talked about for that person.
And it's about creating a relationship and, those questions.
We talked about getting, getting in deep with that brand to help.
And I'm not sure, I don't want to throw a fight and run or the bus right?
Yep.
I'm
Mike Brennan: Yes, you do.
Jason Clement: that kind of yes.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I'm not sure you get that kind of relationship with that kind of deep
attention to detail in other situations,
Robby: Yep.
Mike, what would you add to that?
Why can't I just go get a logo for $5, $10 or whatever?
Mike Brennan: Yeah, because you're not just paying for a pair of hands.
It's more than that.
You're paying for brain.
You're paying for someone to think through context like we talked about
before and making sure that you're going to be good on the other side of this.
Sometimes people just look at the final product, if you will.
And they say I want something that looks professional.
I want something that looks great, but how it's constructed is also very
important as we talked about, because if you end up on the other side and you've
been painted into a corner, spent a lot of time, energy, effort, and money.
On something that all of a sudden it's useless and you need to start over or
bring it to someone who can try to fix it.
This happens a lot of times for us, I'm sure you get Jason's shaking is
head, where people come to us and say, Hey, I had somebody else try and create
something for me, but it just didn't work.
Can you take a look at this?
Or can we do something else with this?
Because I needed to use it in this context.
And now I can't.
So I'm stuck.
So starting the right way.
It will save you a lot of headaches.
It'll save you a lot of expense.
It may seem like it won't because you're thinking like if I go to
Fiverr, Hey, that's a lot cheaper, but again, you're going to end
up having to redo stuff anyway.
So just do it right the first time.
Robby: You will likely change your brand at best, maybe once every 10 years.
So if you look at what it takes to swap out logos and colors and start
over, put it in the category of literally legally changing your name.
Can you do it tomorrow?
Absolutely.
You can.
It's a big headache with costs and expenses and red tape and government
and all that kind of stuff.
Can you then change it again?
Technically the week after that?
You can, I don't think there's a law against how many times you can go do that.
Who does that?
Nobody, because it's way too big of a hassle.
So we're here to tell you, put the brakes on.
If there's one time to not ready, shoot, aim.
This is one of those times because you can't just go swap
this out every 18 months and go, yeah, I didn't really like that.
So I'm going to start all over.
Any thoughts you would add to that?
Jason Clement: Yeah, agree.
It's easy to all the parts of that extends to it's really why
big brands spend millions and millions of dollars when right.
I'm sure they get a knot in their stomach more Oh yeah.
Robby: Yeah.
And we've seen several examples of those when they do that big brand, does that.
Perhaps big brand writes a very big check for that.
We know that whoever they write a check to didn't do a good job
of actually talking to customers.
It gets in front of customers and what's the response.
Customers go ballistic.
They hate it.
And we've seen big brands.
The check's already been cashed for it to the agency that did it.
And big brands literally revert right back to the old.
Of the visual identity because it caused such a backlash.
So these are big things you don't do them often.
They do represent you like everywhere it is going to represent you.
So this is one of those times.
Yes it's good to do it.
And do it.
Okay, let's talk.
Let's maybe as we look to start to land the plane here, I want
to talk about two final things.
One, I would love to talk briefly about websites.
I know Jason, that's your pardon?
The pun domain.
Hello.
So we'll talk just for a second about that.
And then I'll circle around with one kind of final question for both of us.
So Jason personal brands website.
If there are one or two, tips you could give us about what do I
need to either plan ahead of time before I come to you or another
web designer for my personal brand?
What does that web designer, what should they be asking me in order to wind up
with a good personal brand websites?
Jason Clement: One thing photography yet.
I think photography is a huge thing.
It's extremely helpful and some photos that you can talk about that are you.
Yup.
no, way that photos are taking.
I think a photography, huge thing.
The other thing that I run into a lot is people will change
directions midstream, right?
Oh, you've already done the word.
the blueprint to my house and kitchens in the front.
There's two bedrooms in the back.
There's two bathrooms.
then in the middle of building this house, they said, you know what?
I really want the kitchen in the back now.
So really important to nail those things down and have them set, make sure what
you're doing before you get weeds.
Robby: Yes, that's so helpful.
And I will reiterate, we all know the saying a picture
is worth a thousand words.
That means a mediocre picture is like paying Jason money to put a thousand
mediocre, put me to sleep, boring words.
So Jason, you could do a killer design.
This could be the one that Jason goes.
This is clearly the best home page I've ever designed.
And then I give you one of those mediocre.
My, my wife took this picture of me on an iPhone on our beach vacation.
always loved this picture.
Can you use this, Jason?
What does that do your Picasso?
Jason Clement: Yeah, it changes the entire feel.
Robby: We're not saying bad picture.
We're saying one average takes Jason's 11 point design on a scale
of one to 10, he hit an 11 and now you're sitting at a solid 5.25
just by the one mediocre picture..
Then Mike you've seen it or experienced if not in a web design
social media graphics, you've got.
Great plan I'm hiring you out to do is put some social media templates for
me, and you've got ideas and then I send you my mediocre to terrible logo.
Oh, as designers.
not the worst?
You're like, how do I not their logo?
I have in fact use texts in a
Yes.
Yeah.
If you ever get
Jason Clement: sick put your logo footer.
Robby: and boy, is it going to be small?
Okay.
So that goes back to what we were just talking about.
That's why don't shortcut yourself on the visual identity and the logo
because we are here to tell you.
you want to talk about what drags are, work on your behalf, down to
the ground, fast, poor pictures, and just a mediocre or bad luck.
We literally can't hide it.
We've all designed around it as best we possibly could.
And we still can't sleep at night because the one thing that's wrong with that
design before we have a big meeting with you tomorrow is the logo you forced on us.
So be very careful with that.
Mike, anything else you might add to that when it comes to websites and
what you would, what you've seen or what you would recommend to somebody?
Mike Brennan: Yeah, I think.
Think about usability, and the end user, because a lot of times
people get caught up in here's all the things I want to have there.
Here's all the information.
Here's all, and it's just, it becomes a lot of stuff and a lot of noise.
But if somebody can't navigate that and they don't know where things
are, then you could have even the best stuff up there, but it's
useless because nobody can find it.
Nobody knows what to do with it.
I think having.
Thought through as far as, what is your what is your menu structure look like?
And how do people access things go for clear over clever.
Because a lot of times, if you're too clever, you're going to lose people.
And again, then it really does not serve you.
It may look great or it may seem like it's a fun thing, but again,
it's not doing what it's supposed to.
Robby: So that's tough for us.
We all admit.
We're three creatives on the podcast and we're all dropping her head's
a little bit and admitting, if forced between the choice between
creative or clear, go clear.
Okay.
Last question.
I want to ask us , what would be one piece of advice you would
give a personal brand when they're about to work with a designer?
Jason Clement: I think it's for me, it's about the relationship thing that
talked about a couple of times today.
so I want you to be honest with me.
You can't really hurt my feelings.
It doesn't mean I'm not going to end this zoom call and scream out.
But want you to be honest with I want you to give detailed feedback.
I don't want you to say, I don't like that color.
I want you to say I don't like that color because.
Or I don't want to say I don't like that typography because.
I want detailed feedback.
Because like job is created just to sell our art.
Say, Hey, I did X, Y, and Z, because of these.
So I can't, I need to be able to justify what I did.
And if you can't tell me why you don't like something, I can't, we can't
really have much conversation there.
And then it just becomes a back and forth.
Robby: Yeah.
Okay.
So relationship with your designer so that you can give feedback
that actually helps the designer.
So just saying, I don't know, I'm not sure.
I don't like that's okay.
It's just.
It's not particularly helpful.
So have the relationship where you can go all in and say, I don't like this because.
Mike what advice would you give on personal brand?
I'm listening in, how can I be the best client my next designer has ever hired
or I've ever hired or worked with.
Mike Brennan: I would come back to the whole idea of clarity because.
While someone may not understand certain contexts and there needs to
be discussion and education around design and what needs to happen.
I think there's times where people aren't clear on their own goals
and their own identity, or like what it is that they're doing.
And they're still in process on that and they've jumped the gun to go,
Hey, now I need a logo and branding.
And then when you get in further down into things, they start to shift some
pretty significant things can happen.
And then you're like, we've already established a strategy moving
forward for this and a plan.
And now some pretty major things are changing.
So I would say, make sure that you have thought that stuff through before you go
to a designer Solid on who you are, what you do, what you know, who you serve, how
you serve those things so that you can bring that to the conversation, because
that is going to be key to knowing and filling in a lot of the other information
that needs to happen from there.
That's the right time to do that is not with the designer or as the
process of design is unfolding.
So do the homework upfront as sometimes it's difficult as that can.
You will be better off for it.
Believe me.
Robby: Okay.
Mike, tell us where we can find you and maybe something, a personal brand
listening and can go grab right now?
Mike Brennan: Yeah.
So for my design stuff, it's Mike Brennan designs with an s.com and I do have social
media templates that are canvas related.
So I know canvas is a a good resource for people who, if they don't have
the ability to hire a designer on retainer to do ongoing design,
or maybe they have a certain team member that they want to task out.
Kind of have it template.
I have a template that they know that they can depend on.
So that there's consistency we talked about before.
I've created a whole bunch of those, whether it's for podcasting or for
Instagram, Facebook posts for personal brands specifically you can go to digital
downloads on my website that I just mentioned, Mike Brennan designs.com
and I have some of those for sale.
They're pretty cheap.
And again, it just gives you a canvas link.
That is a template that then you can plug in your own either photos, colors,
anything to customize for your own needs?
Robby: Awesome.
Okay, Jason, where can folks find you?
Jason Clement: You can find me.
I want to talk about Canberra real quick.
Am I the only one that fought tooth
Mike Brennan: Yes.
Oh my
Jason Clement: had nightmares about Canva and I'm like, it's pretty
Mike Brennan: Yep.
Jason Clement: Really useful.
Mike Brennan: It's another tool.
It's another tool,
Robby: you're still cool if you use canvas.
Okay.
Were we
Jason Clement: all admitted?
laugh.
the links you sent, like it's super easy for people to use and I'm
Mike Brennan: Yes, I oh, I'm with you,
Robby: There's gotta be something wrong with this.
It can't be this easy.
So where can they find you in where, what could, what can they
reach out to you for help with?
Jason Clement: All right, so you can find me at Jason dot com.
You can find some of my work on.
You can contact on there.
I love personal brands and websites, awesome.
but I also design all sorts of other things.
So
Yup.
I've been of book covers lately,
Robby: Yes.
You're listening to the you're the brand book cover designer, Jason
Clement, ladies and gentlemen on the podcast show today among other things.
So I told you've seen his work.
Fellas, this has been a lot of fun.
It's fun to have three creatives on a podcast Hopefully this
really helps folks know...
what they need to look for in a designer, how they need to think about their
visual identity, what to do with those files after you've paid money for them.
So we'll summarize where you can find these guys in the show notes.
We'll also summarize some of those key points so that you
you have some clear takeaways.
Jason, Mike, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Mike Brennan: Thanks Robby.
Jason Clement: Thanks for having me Robby.
Robby: Thanks for joining me on this episode today.
It's great to have two wonderful designers with me collaborating together.
It's great to have their help and answer those three important questions.
What do you need to look for in a designer?
How do you need to think about your visual identity when working with
a designer as a personal brand?
And what to do with those files that you have paid money for when
they give those files over to you.
If you're not already subscribed to my 4 Wins on Friday email,
I would invite you to do that.
The feedback has been great.
I'll put a link to that in the show notes, you can go to Robbyf.com/friday,
and you can see all of the reviews and the feedback people are giving.
So I'd love to see you there.
That's where I put my best effort.
So I'd love to have you on that list.
You get four wins every Friday.
It takes you less than two minutes to read.
So join me there.
If this has been helpful for you, share it with someone.
And as always, if you go leave a rating or a review on apple podcast,
That is a great way to get this in the hands of more folks.
Until the next episode go and build a life giving brand.