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[MUSIC]

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Hello and welcome to another edition of

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Undercooled, a

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materials education podcast.

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Today, I'm here with a special guest,

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Professor Susan Gentry from UC Davis.

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And I've known Susan for a long time, cuz

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she was a graduate student here at

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University of Michigan.

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And so I've known her and

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I've also gotten

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reacquainted with her many,

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many times at education conferences, most

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recently at the NAMES conference

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last summer in San Luis Obispo.

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And of course, our little plug, we're

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gonna have the NAMES conference this year

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in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I

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hope all of you can make it.

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So Susan, why don't you tell us a little

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bit about yourself and

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how you got into teaching and what your

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position is at Davis.

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Cuz it's a little unusual, but it's

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really important, I think.

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So go ahead.

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Yeah, so I'll start from the beginning.

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So when I was looking for

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doing a PhD and started my PhD,

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I was interested in going into industry.

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And so one of the things that

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interested me about Michigan,

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going to grad school at Michigan and my

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advisor was strong industry connections.

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Sort of through the

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process, I finished my PhD.

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I wasn't 100% sold on industry cuz my 3D

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printing machine kept breaking on me.

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And so I was trying to

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look for different options.

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So I ended up sticking around for another

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three years in Ann Arbor.

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I did a postdoc in phase field modeling

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with Katzio Thornton.

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And so sort of during that, during my

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PhD, I enjoyed my teaching experience.

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And so I was interested in

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those types of positions.

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I was able to get a partial teaching

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appointment my last year at Michigan.

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Katzio helped me teaching the

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undergraduate lab class at Michigan,

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while I was also doing the postdoc.

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But sort of through all of this, I was

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still like, do I go into industry?

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Do I try an academic job?

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And ultimately where I ended was I felt

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like the teaching job was this thing that

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I would always feel like, what if?

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So I started applying for the teaching

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positions, figuring I'd try them.

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And if not, my fallback could always be

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to go back into industry.

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Well, not go back, but to go back to my

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original plan of going into industry.

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And so I was looking at lecture positions

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and things like that.

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I wasn't interested.

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I don't have a big enough drive of this

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is my research problem I want to solve to

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be a research professor and to have to

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run a research group and write grants.

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So that was not interesting to me.

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And so when this position came up at

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Davis, I was really interested.

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So it's morphed titles a little bit.

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The title series though that I'm in is a

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professor of teaching series.

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So it's equivalent to

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tenure track here at Davis.

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So I'm an associate

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professor of teaching.

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I have the equivalent of tenure.

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And so I'm treated like an equal.

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I'm a member of the Academic Senate,

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treated like an equal in my department.

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I say that this comes with the honor of

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serving on three hour qualifying exams.

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[LAUGH] But I get to

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sort of meet with students.

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My teaching load is one and a half times

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that of the other faculty.

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So I do teach more, but then I'm

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evaluated more on my

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teaching innovations,

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my teaching excellence with a smaller

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aspect of my scholarship.

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And for my scholarship, then I've been

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able to go to these

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education conferences,

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present on work that I'm doing.

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I've worked on computational

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modules for the curriculum,

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looking at student learning.

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Now that I've gotten tenure, I sort of

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tried integrating

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more active learning and

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different types of

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strategies into my graduate classes.

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And so, yeah, it's just been a really fun

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time to meet with students and

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also to think about what is good teaching

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and how do we help all of our students?

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And how do we help them learn and grow?

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Fantastic.

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Yeah, I remember your first few talks at

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NAMES back when you were just starting

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were all on different

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computational models.

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And then of course I noticed in your

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publication history,

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you started drifting towards during the

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COVID days of how to

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do distance learning.

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And now you're back doing equitable

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teaching and active learning in all your

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classes. So I hope we get

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to talk about all of that.

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So do you want to lead off Tim and ask

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her a question about one of her topics?

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Sure.

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I have a two parter here because the

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first thing I want to

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know is digging further

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back into the past, what caught you into

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material science and engineering in the

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first point? What's

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the origin story here?

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Oh, the origin is I'm the rare bird who

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came into material science as who had

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material science as their degree listed

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when they started college.

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I liked chemistry. I liked physics.

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In high school, my sister had suggested

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to me she had gone to Carnegie Mellon.

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And so she had suggested, oh, you might

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be interested in this

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material science thing.

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I was also at one point interested in

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chemical engineering till I visited a

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different university and realized that it

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was like big pipes and they were like

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showing off their like

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two storey like facility.

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And I was like, I mean, I liked chemistry

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and physics, but this is that's not what

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I thought chemical engineering was.

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And so just a little bit

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of trying different things.

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But I just like the integration of the

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chemistry and physics.

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And I took an intro to materials class my

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freshman year and liked it and I've stuck

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with it ever since.

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Yeah, I feel like every time we ask

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someone a question on

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the show, the answer is I

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thought I wanted to be a chemical

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engineer, but then I really didn't.

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It's just funny how

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much that keeps coming up.

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But back to graduate education, since

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that was something you

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were talking about in

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graduate courses, especially there's so

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much rigorous quantitative content, so

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much of the sort of analytical problem

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solving that has to be taught at a really

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deep level in graduate courses,

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especially compared to say

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the intro materials class.

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What are things that you're doing with

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quantitative problem solving in an active

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learning sort of way in

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these graduate courses?

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What does that look like for you?

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You know, it's it's an emphasis, but I

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think sometimes we get too caught up on

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thinking that our students actually are

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getting the quantitative problem solving

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skills that we think they are.

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I like to sometimes reckon.

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So I'm teaching a graduate thermodynamics

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class is what I do this in.

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And I've seen what I call the hope and

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pray approach to science to solve problem

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solving, which is like they just

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rearrange their

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equations and they get an answer.

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And if they get the answer,

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like they're very relieved.

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As opposed to like being able to explain

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their answer and, you know, can they

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reproduce this on an exam, you know, or

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can they do this on their own?

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Do they know why their

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answer is right or wrong?

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You know, those are the skills that I

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just feel like easily are still getting

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bypassed, you know, and if I have an exam

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and sure, it's a really hard exam and

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then the score is a 60 and, you know,

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half the students didn't get one of the

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questions like, what is that telling me

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about their their learning?

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And so it's just these questions of, yes,

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we expect it to go deeper.

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But I also want to make sure that my

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students like have these fundamental

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this fundamental knowledge, have these

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fundamental skills, because, you know,

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they're sort of rearranging equations,

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you know, just trying to figure out the

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right answer, hoping that it works out

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like that's that those skills aren't

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going to serve them well as they move

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forward in their graduate career.

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So I noticed that in your one of your

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talks, you put up very prominently

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a picture of grading

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for equity, the book.

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And it seems like you followed a lot of

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the examples in that book.

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And also the specifications grading book

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by Nilson, I think her name is.

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And I've been reading similar things.

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I just finished reading a

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book called Grading for Growth.

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I don't know if you've heard of that, the

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Robert Talbert Road.

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And there are very

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similar kinds of things.

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But obviously, from looking at your work,

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it seems you believe that the grading

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strategy strategy is intrinsically

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involved in the

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learning of your students.

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So can you talk a little bit about that?

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Yeah, and I you know, it's wanting their

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their grades to represent like their

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their knowledge and their mastery of the

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course content as well.

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And not to be like the thing that struck

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me about there's this example in grading

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for equity where like depending on how we

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are waiting different categories of like

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homework versus participation and this

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and that and their exam

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scores like how much am

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I sitting there fiddling with this to

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like when you sort of

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can look at your students

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to be like they get it and they don't.

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But how can I sort of make my grading

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scheme represent more

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realistically like what do

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they know and and like

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what is their mastery?

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And how can we also then get it so that

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we don't have to like

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nitpick about like this

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was an 82 or an 84 on the homework or

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this presentation like

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you know they're going to

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my students are going to go on you know

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if they're in the PhD

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program at the UC Davis

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they take their an oral preliminary exam

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01:09:43,875 --> 01:09:46,166
at the end of their first year.

280
01:09:46,666 --> 01:09:48,500
And so like that's on a

281
01:09:48,500 --> 01:09:50,708
pass retake fail basis.

282
01:09:51,041 --> 01:09:53,541
And so like let's stop getting into like

283
01:09:53,541 --> 01:09:54,375
these little nitpicky

284
01:09:54,375 --> 01:09:55,791
arguments of like you

285
01:09:55,833 --> 01:09:58,541
know 82s and 84s and like let's focus on

286
01:09:58,541 --> 01:10:00,500
like you know are you demonstrating these

287
01:10:00,500 --> 01:10:01,625
skills are you not.

288
01:10:02,250 --> 01:10:02,958
And it's hard to get

289
01:10:02,958 --> 01:10:03,958
there with the grading team.

290
01:10:04,125 --> 01:10:05,458
I'll be the first to admit I'm not there

291
01:10:05,458 --> 01:10:06,500
yet but it's just been

292
01:10:06,500 --> 01:10:07,833
really getting me to think

293
01:10:07,833 --> 01:10:09,958
about like how do we get students to like

294
01:10:09,958 --> 01:10:11,250
recognize that they're

295
01:10:11,250 --> 01:10:12,958
you know they and they

296
01:10:12,958 --> 01:10:15,541
can't just wait for the you know depend

297
01:10:15,541 --> 01:10:16,833
on the class to do poorly.

298
01:10:16,833 --> 01:10:18,958
But like I don't care if the class

299
01:10:18,958 --> 01:10:20,333
everyone in the class did

300
01:10:20,333 --> 01:10:21,291
poorly on something like

301
01:10:21,375 --> 01:10:23,000
it's they're responsible for you know

302
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:24,125
mastering these topics.

303
01:10:24,750 --> 01:10:26,708
And how can we sort of then link that to

304
01:10:26,708 --> 01:10:29,041
the letter grades that we we have to get.

305
01:10:29,208 --> 01:10:31,166
So all that sounds great.

306
01:10:31,416 --> 01:10:33,041
But of course the devil's in the details.

307
01:10:33,666 --> 01:10:35,791
So how do you actually assess whether

308
01:10:35,791 --> 01:10:37,041
they've learned it or not.

309
01:10:37,041 --> 01:10:40,250
I noticed you even went to oral exams or

310
01:10:40,250 --> 01:10:41,000
you're thinking about

311
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,208
going to oral exams.

312
01:10:42,750 --> 01:10:44,041
That's very time intensive.

313
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,416
So what's going on with all that.

314
01:10:47,458 --> 01:10:49,250
How are you going to figure out what

315
01:10:49,250 --> 01:10:49,916
they've actually

316
01:10:49,916 --> 01:10:52,208
they've mastered a topic.

317
01:10:55,958 --> 01:10:58,375
The reality is that some of this mastery

318
01:10:58,375 --> 01:10:59,583
is still for me just

319
01:10:59,583 --> 01:11:03,958
having to be is being done

320
01:11:04,500 --> 01:11:06,166
like on an exam setting.

321
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:08,333
But then also just trying to give them

322
01:11:08,333 --> 01:11:09,583
opportunities to like

323
01:11:09,583 --> 01:11:11,125
practice mastery as well.

324
01:11:11,166 --> 01:11:14,125
And so that they're they're gaining those

325
01:11:14,125 --> 01:11:16,083
mastery skills so that the exams aren't

326
01:11:16,083 --> 01:11:17,458
this like big thing.

327
01:11:18,208 --> 01:11:19,791
But that exams are just a

328
01:11:19,791 --> 01:11:21,208
way for me to like to check.

329
01:11:21,208 --> 01:11:22,000
We're not there yet.

330
01:11:23,583 --> 01:11:25,291
But I really tried to give them

331
01:11:25,291 --> 01:11:26,625
opportunities to give get

332
01:11:26,625 --> 01:11:29,000
lots of practice for those.

333
01:11:30,916 --> 01:11:32,416
Yeah I really this is the thing I really

334
01:11:32,416 --> 01:11:34,083
struggle with is how do

335
01:11:34,083 --> 01:11:35,583
you I like the oral exams.

336
01:11:35,791 --> 01:11:36,875
We could talk about that for for a while.

337
01:11:37,291 --> 01:11:38,541
But how do I do this and

338
01:11:38,541 --> 01:11:41,666
make it time timely for me.

339
01:11:41,666 --> 01:11:43,583
Also I have some remote students.

340
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,000
And so how do I do this in a way that

341
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:47,166
works for them as well.

342
01:11:47,166 --> 01:11:48,458
So they're working full time and are

343
01:11:48,458 --> 01:11:50,416
watching lectures on their own.

344
01:11:51,291 --> 01:11:52,875
And so they can't necessarily participate

345
01:11:52,875 --> 01:11:54,750
all the time in class every day.

346
01:11:55,291 --> 01:11:58,041
And so how do I create this this class

347
01:11:58,041 --> 01:11:59,250
environment for everyone.

348
01:11:59,500 --> 01:12:01,500
Yeah. And so there's.

349
01:12:01,500 --> 01:12:03,958
Oh that's a really interesting idea.

350
01:12:04,166 --> 01:12:06,041
If I can ask a little more about that.

351
01:12:06,125 --> 01:12:09,208
So it if you have in person students who

352
01:12:09,208 --> 01:12:11,916
you're doing these sort of you know doing

353
01:12:11,916 --> 01:12:13,291
different activities in class with your

354
01:12:13,291 --> 01:12:14,333
in person students but then

355
01:12:14,333 --> 01:12:15,500
you also have remote students.

356
01:12:15,875 --> 01:12:18,375
What are some strategies that you're

357
01:12:18,375 --> 01:12:21,541
trying to give you know to give some sort

358
01:12:21,541 --> 01:12:22,541
of comparable valuable

359
01:12:22,541 --> 01:12:24,041
experience to the remote students.

360
01:12:24,416 --> 01:12:29,041
And I ask because you know in 2020 2021

361
01:12:29,041 --> 01:12:31,583
when I had these hybrid courses as well I

362
01:12:31,583 --> 01:12:34,333
was really struggling to actively engage

363
01:12:34,333 --> 01:12:35,500
my remote students and never

364
01:12:35,583 --> 01:12:36,416
quite found out what

365
01:12:36,416 --> 01:12:37,291
worked for me in that.

366
01:12:37,708 --> 01:12:38,833
So how are you doing that.

367
01:12:39,666 --> 01:12:42,500
Yeah. So one of the strategies that has

368
01:12:42,500 --> 01:12:45,166
worked I can you know they do work a lot

369
01:12:45,166 --> 01:12:46,291
of them work in the same place.

370
01:12:47,208 --> 01:12:47,958
Most of them are through

371
01:12:47,958 --> 01:12:48,958
a national lab program.

372
01:12:50,041 --> 01:12:51,458
And so you can still give them like group

373
01:12:51,458 --> 01:12:54,250
work to do or group homework assignments.

374
01:12:55,458 --> 01:12:56,333
But then also some of

375
01:12:56,333 --> 01:12:57,416
this problem solving.

376
01:12:57,416 --> 01:12:58,541
I'll make one of the groups.

377
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:00,875
It's my classes video recorded and a

378
01:13:00,875 --> 01:13:03,291
video recording classroom and so I'll

379
01:13:03,291 --> 01:13:04,791
make them either go up to the board with

380
01:13:04,791 --> 01:13:07,166
the microphone or go

381
01:13:07,166 --> 01:13:08,500
use our document camera.

382
01:13:09,416 --> 01:13:11,375
But so that way they're getting to see

383
01:13:11,375 --> 01:13:13,541
sort of other students working working

384
01:13:13,541 --> 01:13:14,875
through these problems if I'm doing

385
01:13:14,875 --> 01:13:17,208
problem solving and I can set it so that

386
01:13:17,208 --> 01:13:18,125
the microphone isn't

387
01:13:18,125 --> 01:13:19,291
projected through the classroom.

388
01:13:19,625 --> 01:13:21,625
But that way the microphone is getting

389
01:13:21,625 --> 01:13:23,208
picked up the audio is getting picked up

390
01:13:23,208 --> 01:13:25,250
for the recording and so

391
01:13:25,250 --> 01:13:26,833
that they can sort of be there.

392
01:13:27,500 --> 01:13:29,625
One thing I did two years ago I skipped

393
01:13:29,625 --> 01:13:31,041
it this year and but I think I'll go back

394
01:13:31,041 --> 01:13:33,125
to some of it is to also have the

395
01:13:33,125 --> 01:13:35,208
students do videos where they have to

396
01:13:35,208 --> 01:13:36,000
explain this the

397
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:37,041
solutions that they have.

398
01:13:37,916 --> 01:13:40,583
And so the remote students if they

399
01:13:40,583 --> 01:13:42,958
weren't in a group they had they could

400
01:13:42,958 --> 01:13:44,833
have easier problems if the end of all

401
01:13:44,833 --> 01:13:45,666
students could do these.

402
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:47,500
If you were working as an individual

403
01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:49,333
there was slightly easier problems group

404
01:13:49,333 --> 01:13:51,166
problems had slightly harder problems but

405
01:13:51,166 --> 01:13:53,125
that way you sort of are getting examples

406
01:13:53,125 --> 01:13:55,916
and videos of how to like you know do

407
01:13:55,916 --> 01:13:57,166
some of this problem solving.

408
01:13:57,833 --> 01:13:59,083
And see other students solving the

409
01:13:59,083 --> 01:14:01,000
problems like we skipped so much of this

410
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:02,625
in graduate education we just pretend

411
01:14:02,625 --> 01:14:03,583
that they're supposed to go off and

412
01:14:03,583 --> 01:14:05,583
magically do this and so you know sort of

413
01:14:05,583 --> 01:14:06,500
saving time for some

414
01:14:06,500 --> 01:14:07,500
of that in the class.

415
01:14:08,333 --> 01:14:10,166
And so that they can sort of see some of

416
01:14:10,166 --> 01:14:11,250
that and then they're still having to

417
01:14:11,250 --> 01:14:12,208
explain it to each

418
01:14:12,208 --> 01:14:14,250
other you're using a lot of.

419
01:14:15,708 --> 01:14:18,250
Lots of feedback right during class where

420
01:14:18,250 --> 01:14:20,666
you're able to see them actually do the

421
01:14:20,666 --> 01:14:22,583
work and then give them feedback on what

422
01:14:22,583 --> 01:14:25,500
they did and not count that as great

423
01:14:25,500 --> 01:14:28,416
right just use that to teach

424
01:14:28,416 --> 01:14:29,500
them is that what i'm hearing.

425
01:14:30,875 --> 01:14:32,208
letting them teach each other.

426
01:14:32,750 --> 01:14:34,833
Well yeah so just I mean if part of it is

427
01:14:34,833 --> 01:14:36,666
is working through how do you start a

428
01:14:36,666 --> 01:14:38,458
problem you know you sort of

429
01:14:38,458 --> 01:14:39,625
start some of these problems.

430
01:14:40,083 --> 01:14:44,708
A phase diagram you give them common you

431
01:14:44,708 --> 01:14:46,291
give them the free energy curves and they

432
01:14:46,291 --> 01:14:47,583
have to do the common tangent

433
01:14:47,583 --> 01:14:49,875
construction to generate a phase diagram

434
01:14:49,875 --> 01:14:51,458
and you know students don't even know

435
01:14:51,458 --> 01:14:52,250
where to start or how

436
01:14:52,250 --> 01:14:53,458
to explain that and so.

437
01:14:53,875 --> 01:14:55,125
getting them to practice some of that

438
01:14:55,125 --> 01:14:57,250
starting and explaining but then also

439
01:14:57,250 --> 01:14:58,166
trying to make sure.

440
01:14:59,041 --> 01:15:00,916
When we would do these problem sessions

441
01:15:00,916 --> 01:15:02,458
that then you know things were getting

442
01:15:02,458 --> 01:15:04,083
recorded for the distance learning

443
01:15:04,083 --> 01:15:07,541
students, so I had seen one scheme to

444
01:15:07,541 --> 01:15:08,208
make oral exams more scalable.

445
01:15:08,583 --> 01:15:12,458
And the idea was that.

446
01:15:13,666 --> 01:15:15,541
If students didn't get a good grade the

447
01:15:15,541 --> 01:15:17,750
first time or a passing mark or a mastery

448
01:15:17,750 --> 01:15:19,208
mark whatever you want to call it.

449
01:15:20,583 --> 01:15:23,166
They would have an opportunity to do it

450
01:15:23,166 --> 01:15:27,541
again and so they then to do it again the

451
01:15:27,541 --> 01:15:28,458
professor would tell the student I will let you.

452
01:15:28,500 --> 01:15:33,833
take this again or take parts of this

453
01:15:33,833 --> 01:15:36,500
again, but you have to come to my office

454
01:15:36,500 --> 01:15:38,750
hours and do it in my office hours and

455
01:15:38,750 --> 01:15:40,125
let me talk to you about it.

456
01:15:41,208 --> 01:15:43,000
That way you only have to deal with the

457
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:44,333
oral exams for the students

458
01:15:44,333 --> 01:15:45,666
who actually need the help.

459
01:15:46,916 --> 01:15:48,416
You don't have to waste your time on all

460
01:15:48,416 --> 01:15:51,583
the students who actually learned it so I

461
01:15:51,583 --> 01:15:52,833
thought that was a really clever trick

462
01:15:52,833 --> 01:15:53,083
that I read about in a book grading growth.

463
01:15:53,083 --> 01:15:57,833
And it's a neat idea.

464
01:16:01,875 --> 01:16:04,250
Yeah, so I did so I would I sent this

465
01:16:04,250 --> 01:16:06,500
students a problem 30 minutes advance

466
01:16:06,500 --> 01:16:07,875
they had some time to work on their

467
01:16:07,875 --> 01:16:09,875
problem so they sort of got that problem

468
01:16:09,875 --> 01:16:11,791
solving time without me having to be

469
01:16:11,791 --> 01:16:12,458
there, and so then

470
01:16:12,458 --> 01:16:13,750
they just had to sort of.

471
01:16:13,833 --> 01:16:16,000
explain their problem, it was just I need

472
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:17,416
to figure out better the logistics of how to how to do some of this and make sure I.

473
01:16:17,416 --> 01:16:22,333
don't give them too many time slots

474
01:16:22,333 --> 01:16:24,333
during the days so that they have to like

475
01:16:24,333 --> 01:16:26,000
they have to stack themselves up.

476
01:16:26,250 --> 01:16:27,166
How many students are

477
01:16:27,166 --> 01:16:29,083
in your class typically.

478
01:16:29,875 --> 01:16:31,083
I had about 20 students so you can

479
01:16:31,083 --> 01:16:33,500
probably do it for 20 I mean I just

480
01:16:33,500 --> 01:16:37,000
taught a class with 140 students in it so

481
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:41,166
that's kind of hard yet you know oral

482
01:16:41,166 --> 01:16:43,958
discussion just communicating talking to

483
01:16:43,958 --> 01:16:44,500
somebody you get a real sense right away if they understand it.

484
01:16:44,541 --> 01:16:51,250
And that's what my my last

485
01:16:51,250 --> 01:16:52,791
course was a total disaster.

486
01:16:54,125 --> 01:16:55,458
Everyone got days because they all did

487
01:16:55,458 --> 01:16:57,291
what I told them to do but.

488
01:16:59,416 --> 01:17:02,708
But when I walked around the room and I

489
01:17:02,708 --> 01:17:06,125
talked to all the teams it only took me

490
01:17:06,125 --> 01:17:09,041
about 15 minutes and I realized not a

491
01:17:09,041 --> 01:17:10,416
single person knew what they were talking

492
01:17:10,416 --> 01:17:11,166
about and it made me really sad so I'm now having to read this.

493
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:17,916
I wish there was I mean.

494
01:17:19,208 --> 01:17:21,000
yeah the gold standard for measuring

495
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:22,541
learning isn't oral exam.

496
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:25,250
Too bad it's not scalable

497
01:17:25,250 --> 01:17:27,083
that's the biggest problem.

498
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:32,458
I know that there's a group that had that I think it's a UC riverside it's definitely one of these season in mechanical engineering.

499
01:17:38,041 --> 01:17:40,708
And they've been looking at oral exams

500
01:17:40,708 --> 01:17:42,791
they started them during during COVID and

501
01:17:42,791 --> 01:17:44,875
so you know coming up with rubrics and

502
01:17:44,875 --> 01:17:47,333
things so that they could do this with.

503
01:17:48,291 --> 01:17:49,958
You know, in some of the you know with

504
01:17:49,958 --> 01:17:52,916
100 students and things like that sort of

505
01:17:52,916 --> 01:17:54,583
they wouldn't do all their exams this way, 

506
01:17:54,583 --> 01:17:56,166
but at least to do one or two check ins 

507
01:17:56,166 --> 01:17:59,583
and then also wage to you know frame it for the students.

508
01:17:59,583 --> 01:18:03,083
As like learning opportunities rather

509
01:18:03,083 --> 01:18:05,000
than this like panic you

510
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:06,333
know really scary thing.

511
01:18:07,333 --> 01:18:08,125
You know so there's people who are

512
01:18:08,125 --> 01:18:10,250
interested in doing that and then it's

513
01:18:10,250 --> 01:18:11,708
also just trying to make you know keep in

514
01:18:11,708 --> 01:18:13,875
mind that like time goes into grading and

515
01:18:13,875 --> 01:18:20,125
so you know opportunities to use these sort of strategically I think are really really interesting.

516
01:18:22,625 --> 01:18:25,500
yeah two ideas in there that really stood

517
01:18:25,500 --> 01:18:28,583
out to me one was giving the oral exam

518
01:18:28,583 --> 01:18:30,458
almost as the retake opportunity it

519
01:18:30,458 --> 01:18:34,833
sounded like to give that extra time and attention to the students 

520
01:18:34,833 --> 01:18:39,041
 who apparently need it most so that's really cool.

521
01:18:40,208 --> 01:18:42,875
But then, as you were Susan as you were

522
01:18:42,875 --> 01:18:45,208
describing the implementation that you're

523
01:18:45,208 --> 01:18:48,208
giving the students the exam problems

524
01:18:48,208 --> 01:18:52,000
just a short time ahead of the interview

525
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:53,916
I'll call it I thought that was pretty

526
01:18:53,916 --> 01:18:57,375
interesting because I do a similar thing

527
01:18:57,375 --> 01:18:58,750
with my lab classes where the students have to give impromptu presentations and I give them.

528
01:18:58,791 --> 01:19:05,166
just 15 minutes to prepare okay here's

529
01:19:05,166 --> 01:19:06,791
your prompt here's what you're going to

530
01:19:06,791 --> 01:19:09,416
present on you have 10 15 minutes get

531
01:19:09,416 --> 01:19:11,166
your thoughts together and then give like

532
01:19:11,166 --> 01:19:13,000
a you know five minute whiteboard talk

533
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:15,750
because one of the professional skills

534
01:19:15,750 --> 01:19:18,958
that I feel like we value so much is the

535
01:19:18,958 --> 01:19:20,583
really thinking on your feet the

536
01:19:20,583 --> 01:19:22,875
extemporaneous oh someone just asked me a

537
01:19:22,875 --> 01:19:40,416
question and I need to be able to explain it even though maybe I haven't thought about this topic for a couple years and so scaffolding is the way to do it.

538
01:19:41,166 --> 01:19:44,708
I think it's also important for them to work through their nerves

539
01:19:44,708 --> 01:19:48,916
I had students there and they sort of knew what was coming, but you could you can see

540
01:19:48,916 --> 01:19:50,916
them visibly you know their hands shaking

541
01:19:50,916 --> 01:19:52,958
but like you know as a

542
01:19:52,958 --> 01:19:54,666
professor i'm used to that.

543
01:19:54,666 --> 01:19:57,208
you know I'm I'm not put off when

544
01:19:57,208 --> 01:19:58,750
students do that I know that these are

545
01:19:58,750 --> 01:20:00,875
really nervous like high pressure

546
01:20:00,875 --> 01:20:04,458
situations it's just that you know by

547
01:20:04,458 --> 01:20:09,708
ignoring them weren't they're not going

548
01:20:10,208 --> 01:20:12,541
15 minutes to prepare for something like

549
01:20:12,541 --> 01:20:14,791
that but you know the more you do it the

550
01:20:14,791 --> 01:20:21,041
more you get used to it and like you find if nothing else ways to manage some of those some of those feelings

551
01:20:21,041 --> 01:20:27,541
and I don't judge them like I said you know I know I can see them shaking and it's like I'm not going to get used to it.

552
01:20:27,541 --> 01:20:31,500
you know we just keep moving on.

553
01:20:32,208 --> 01:20:34,416
So I saw in some of your other talks that

554
01:20:34,416 --> 01:20:37,500
you use learning assistance a lot do you

555
01:20:37,500 --> 01:20:38,208
use those in the

556
01:20:38,208 --> 01:20:39,333
graduate courses as well.

557
01:20:41,875 --> 01:20:48,833
I won't say that I've used them a lot I've used them for a project based class. I've used them for a project based class. I've used them for a project based class. But I've started

558
01:20:48,833 --> 01:20:51,166
exploring how to use them more.

559
01:20:51,166 --> 01:20:54,083
I don't use them in a I don't use them in

560
01:20:54,083 --> 01:20:55,333
the grad class and I don't know how I

561
01:20:55,333 --> 01:20:59,250
could use them in the grad class in you

562
01:20:59,250 --> 01:21:01,000
know similar to Michigan we have to be

563
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,833
careful with rules regarding especially

564
01:21:03,833 --> 01:21:07,166
now that all of our our teaching assistants and research assistants are unionized

565
01:21:07,166 --> 01:21:11,000
And so it's really unclear even in other

566
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:12,166
situations of

567
01:21:12,166 --> 01:21:14,291
opportunities for graduate students.

568
01:21:14,291 --> 01:21:15,833
I mean they could sign up for a one-unit

569
01:21:15,833 --> 01:21:18,250
class and do this but it why would they

570
01:21:18,250 --> 01:21:21,958
and so it works a lot better with the

571
01:21:21,958 --> 01:21:24,583
undergrads and so I've had this junior

572
01:21:24,583 --> 01:21:26,416
level project based class where I had

573
01:21:26,416 --> 01:21:28,833
senior you know I get senior students who

574
01:21:28,833 --> 01:21:30,041
then sign up to do it and then they get they've been getting course credit and they get to do it.

575
01:21:30,041 --> 01:21:33,875
They get they've been getting course

576
01:21:33,875 --> 01:21:35,583
credit and then I'm very careful to

577
01:21:35,583 --> 01:21:37,750
delineate their responsibilities versus

578
01:21:37,750 --> 01:21:41,625
the responsibilities of the T.A. or the

579
01:21:41,625 --> 01:21:44,041
greater but then you know these are

580
01:21:44,041 --> 01:21:45,833
senior students who need leadership

581
01:21:45,833 --> 01:21:49,583
experience you know or want you know to

582
01:21:49,583 --> 01:21:52,125
try you know to get more involved in the

583
01:21:52,125 --> 01:21:53,791
department so I'm sort of I'm thinking of

584
01:21:53,791 --> 01:21:55,583
using some of them next quarter and

585
01:21:55,583 --> 01:21:57,625
teaching intro to material science class and 

586
01:21:57,625 --> 01:21:59,666
and so I'm probably

587
01:21:59,666 --> 01:22:00,833
gonna get like two or three

588
01:22:00,833 --> 01:22:02,875
to help me out with some

589
01:22:02,875 --> 01:22:04,666
of the lab opportunities

590
01:22:04,666 --> 01:22:08,125
or some of the office hour times.

591
01:22:08,958 --> 01:22:09,833
- Can you talk a little

592
01:22:09,833 --> 01:22:11,750
bit about the, you know,

593
01:22:11,750 --> 01:22:12,791
you were talking about how you were

594
01:22:12,791 --> 01:22:15,375
starting to use videos

595
01:22:15,375 --> 01:22:17,291
that graduate students would make to

596
01:22:17,291 --> 01:22:18,791
teach a muddiest point

597
01:22:18,791 --> 01:22:20,041
or something like that as

598
01:22:20,041 --> 01:22:21,708
part of the instruction.

599
01:22:23,041 --> 01:22:24,375
Now that you've done this for a while,

600
01:22:25,041 --> 01:22:27,375
do you see impact of that?

601
01:22:27,375 --> 01:22:27,958
Is that something

602
01:22:27,958 --> 01:22:29,416
you're gonna continue to do?

603
01:22:32,708 --> 01:22:34,125
- I mean, I just like, you know,

604
01:22:34,125 --> 01:22:35,583
it goes back to the learning assistance,

605
01:22:35,583 --> 01:22:37,166
it gets back to the graduate education.

606
01:22:37,416 --> 01:22:38,208
Having people have to

607
01:22:38,208 --> 01:22:39,875
explain how they solve the problem

608
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:42,916
or answer a question is just such a good

609
01:22:42,916 --> 01:22:43,916
experience for them.

610
01:22:44,583 --> 01:22:45,791
So I've done these videos

611
01:22:45,791 --> 01:22:47,208
where they would do like,

612
01:22:48,416 --> 01:22:49,333
in my grad class they

613
01:22:49,333 --> 01:22:50,666
have to answer like a common

614
01:22:51,041 --> 01:22:53,166
undergrad problem of how can entropy

615
01:22:53,166 --> 01:22:55,708
increase or decrease,

616
01:22:55,708 --> 01:22:56,750
you know, how can be, I

617
01:22:56,750 --> 01:22:58,000
calculated the change in entropy

618
01:22:58,000 --> 01:22:58,708
and it was negative.

619
01:22:59,708 --> 01:23:01,208
And so just getting practice,

620
01:23:01,791 --> 01:23:03,791
having to give words to those answers,

621
01:23:04,416 --> 01:23:05,500
and then also just trying

622
01:23:05,500 --> 01:23:06,333
to build some of these up

623
01:23:06,333 --> 01:23:07,708
as a repository so that

624
01:23:07,708 --> 01:23:09,250
they can watch all of these.

625
01:23:09,791 --> 01:23:11,875
You know, it's one thing, I've been

626
01:23:11,875 --> 01:23:12,833
teaching for a while,

627
01:23:12,833 --> 01:23:13,750
but sometimes I struggle

628
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:14,625
with answering questions

629
01:23:14,625 --> 01:23:15,625
in different ways.

630
01:23:15,625 --> 01:23:17,000
And so to hear someone else

631
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:18,333
answer it in a different way,

632
01:23:18,666 --> 01:23:20,000
come at it from a different angle,

633
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:21,375
you know, I think that's why it's so

634
01:23:21,375 --> 01:23:22,625
important in these like

635
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:24,708
peer to peer instruction

636
01:23:24,708 --> 01:23:26,416
opportunities for learning,

637
01:23:26,916 --> 01:23:27,791
you know, to hear the

638
01:23:27,791 --> 01:23:28,958
explanation from someone else

639
01:23:28,958 --> 01:23:29,958
or to hear the explanation

640
01:23:29,958 --> 01:23:32,000
from someone who's had to master

641
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:33,708
the concept more recently than I have.

642
01:23:33,708 --> 01:23:34,708
You know, I took Intro to Material

643
01:23:34,708 --> 01:23:36,041
Science as a freshman in college,

644
01:23:36,041 --> 01:23:39,041
back in 2005, you know,

645
01:23:39,041 --> 01:23:40,333
and so to have someone who had to

646
01:23:40,333 --> 01:23:41,750
struggle with these questions

647
01:23:41,750 --> 01:23:43,250
more recently than I have,

648
01:23:43,833 --> 01:23:44,458
sometimes they can just

649
01:23:44,458 --> 01:23:45,291
answer it a little better.

650
01:23:48,250 --> 01:23:49,750
And for some of the things

651
01:23:49,750 --> 01:23:52,875
that you're starting to do,

652
01:23:53,708 --> 01:23:58,000
you had written that you wanted to do

653
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:01,208
in-class problem solving

654
01:24:01,208 --> 01:24:04,833
and student-led instruction of problems.

655
01:24:04,833 --> 01:24:05,625
Is that for both

656
01:24:05,625 --> 01:24:06,833
graduate and undergraduate?

657
01:24:10,291 --> 01:24:10,625
Yes.

658
01:24:11,416 --> 01:24:14,625
I say with the hesitation only because I

659
01:24:14,625 --> 01:24:15,000
teach a lot of different classes,

660
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,375
and so it's also the

661
01:24:17,375 --> 01:24:18,875
reality that, you know,

662
01:24:18,875 --> 01:24:20,833
how I have to come up with different

663
01:24:20,833 --> 01:24:22,291
activities for different classes.

664
01:24:23,125 --> 01:24:25,000
This quarter I'm teaching a lab class,

665
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:26,041
and so it's just, you

666
01:24:26,041 --> 01:24:27,125
know, it looks a lot different.

667
01:24:27,125 --> 01:24:28,791
And so for me, it's been

668
01:24:28,791 --> 01:24:30,083
thinking about my educational,

669
01:24:30,333 --> 01:24:33,000
my teaching as slow innovations.

670
01:24:33,375 --> 01:24:34,625
And so like how can I

671
01:24:34,625 --> 01:24:35,791
start trying things out?

672
01:24:36,250 --> 01:24:37,750
I've been trying out a lot of these

673
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:38,458
things in my grad

674
01:24:38,458 --> 01:24:39,916
class because it is small.

675
01:24:39,916 --> 01:24:41,250
It's only 20 students and they're a

676
01:24:41,250 --> 01:24:42,000
little more forgiving.

677
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:44,708
So that I can see how

678
01:24:44,708 --> 01:24:46,125
things work and then, you know,

679
01:24:46,125 --> 01:24:46,916
bring more of some of

680
01:24:46,916 --> 01:24:47,833
those things that I'm doing,

681
01:24:47,833 --> 01:24:48,500
bring them into my

682
01:24:48,500 --> 01:24:49,958
bigger undergraduate classes,

683
01:24:50,541 --> 01:24:51,916
and just, you know,

684
01:24:51,916 --> 01:24:53,208
try out different things.

685
01:24:53,958 --> 01:24:56,333
Again, though, you know, 100 students in

686
01:24:56,333 --> 01:24:58,208
my intro class, you know,

687
01:24:58,208 --> 01:24:59,958
versus 20 students in a grad class,

688
01:24:59,958 --> 01:25:01,041
sometimes it's just the

689
01:25:01,041 --> 01:25:02,000
mechanics are a little different.

690
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:02,958
So why don't we take a

691
01:25:02,958 --> 01:25:03,875
look at both of those?

692
01:25:04,541 --> 01:25:06,708
Let's start with the 100-student

693
01:25:06,708 --> 01:25:08,041
undergraduate class.

694
01:25:08,041 --> 01:25:08,916
What does your class look

695
01:25:08,916 --> 01:25:10,000
like? Do you lecture a lot?

696
01:25:10,041 --> 01:25:13,291
Do you break students up into teams?

697
01:25:13,875 --> 01:25:15,208
What kinds of activities do

698
01:25:15,208 --> 01:25:16,875
you do for a very large class?

699
01:25:20,291 --> 01:25:21,750
This is where I wish I did more.

700
01:25:22,666 --> 01:25:23,875
So the honest answer is

701
01:25:23,875 --> 01:25:25,250
that it's mostly lecture,

702
01:25:25,541 --> 01:25:27,750
but then I try and, you know, bring in,

703
01:25:27,750 --> 01:25:29,291
you know, once a week.

704
01:25:29,291 --> 01:25:30,708
I try and one out.

705
01:25:30,708 --> 01:25:32,083
It's three hours of lecture a week,

706
01:25:32,083 --> 01:25:32,666
and then the students

707
01:25:32,666 --> 01:25:35,000
have a lab section as well.

708
01:25:35,875 --> 01:25:37,375
And so, you know, trying to take

709
01:25:37,375 --> 01:25:39,000
advantage of those when they are in class

710
01:25:39,041 --> 01:25:41,791
to, like, bring in, you know, I have

711
01:25:41,791 --> 01:25:43,416
designed some activities

712
01:25:43,416 --> 01:25:46,541
for them to do in class, like that, you

713
01:25:46,541 --> 01:25:48,375
know, take maybe half of a class,

714
01:25:49,208 --> 01:25:49,791
you know, think pair

715
01:25:49,791 --> 01:25:51,041
shares occasionally as well.

716
01:25:52,125 --> 01:25:55,083
But trying to sort of use that as

717
01:25:55,083 --> 01:25:57,625
additional opportunities for them.

718
01:25:57,625 --> 01:25:58,583
And what does the space

719
01:25:58,583 --> 01:26:00,291
look like for the 100 students?

720
01:26:00,291 --> 01:26:02,416
Is it a traditional sloped lecture hall?

721
01:26:04,583 --> 01:26:06,500
Yeah, you know, that's-- they've been

722
01:26:06,500 --> 01:26:07,916
building some new camp--

723
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:09,500
they recently built a new building that

724
01:26:09,500 --> 01:26:11,500
has more of those, you know,

725
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:13,791
long tables with chairs and things.

726
01:26:14,500 --> 01:26:17,041
But often when I-- I haven't looked at

727
01:26:17,041 --> 01:26:18,583
which classroom I'm given next year,

728
01:26:18,583 --> 01:26:19,500
but next quarter.

729
01:26:19,500 --> 01:26:21,500
But a lot of times, yeah, it's been those

730
01:26:21,500 --> 01:26:23,875
sloped lecture halls

731
01:26:23,875 --> 01:26:26,041
with the mini little desks and, you know,

732
01:26:26,041 --> 01:26:27,458
these ideas of turning around.

733
01:26:27,458 --> 01:26:28,791
I mean, this is where,

734
01:26:28,791 --> 01:26:30,041
like, think pair share

735
01:26:30,041 --> 01:26:32,375
or, like, do a computer activity but work

736
01:26:32,375 --> 01:26:33,041
with your neighbors,

737
01:26:33,291 --> 01:26:35,000
you know, sticking with things like that

738
01:26:35,041 --> 01:26:36,833
as opposed to things that involve

739
01:26:36,833 --> 01:26:38,625
completely moving around.

740
01:26:39,458 --> 01:26:40,083
We have-- like I said, we

741
01:26:40,083 --> 01:26:41,041
have some of those spaces,

742
01:26:41,041 --> 01:26:42,208
but the challenge can be

743
01:26:42,208 --> 01:26:44,000
making sure that we're getting--

744
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:44,625
we're getting assigned

745
01:26:44,625 --> 01:26:46,416
those spaces from the register.

746
01:26:46,625 --> 01:26:47,708
So if you got a flat

747
01:26:47,708 --> 01:26:49,500
classroom with movable furniture

748
01:26:49,500 --> 01:26:50,833
and stuff like that, would you

749
01:26:50,833 --> 01:26:51,750
teach the course differently?

750
01:26:54,875 --> 01:26:55,583
You know, it just starts to

751
01:26:55,583 --> 01:26:56,833
bring in more opportunities

752
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:59,041
to have students work together.

753
01:27:00,833 --> 01:27:02,416
I don't-- you know, I like what you're

754
01:27:02,416 --> 01:27:03,000
doing in your class, Steve.

755
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:05,083
It's just-- it's hard for

756
01:27:05,083 --> 01:27:06,375
me with all my other classes

757
01:27:06,375 --> 01:27:09,166
to have to, like, redesign that class to

758
01:27:09,166 --> 01:27:10,500
be an entire problem learning.

759
01:27:10,500 --> 01:27:11,291
And so if I think of

760
01:27:11,291 --> 01:27:12,291
it more, though, like,

761
01:27:12,291 --> 01:27:13,916
how can I get from where I am at now?

762
01:27:14,500 --> 01:27:15,833
How can I add in, like,

763
01:27:16,166 --> 01:27:17,458
one more activity a week?

764
01:27:17,666 --> 01:27:18,666
How can I, you know,

765
01:27:18,666 --> 01:27:19,791
expand that activity?

766
01:27:19,791 --> 01:27:20,625
That's what I see.

767
01:27:20,625 --> 01:27:22,500
Where I see makes the most sense for me.

768
01:27:22,500 --> 01:27:23,500
And honestly, I think makes a lot of

769
01:27:23,500 --> 01:27:24,875
sense for instructors is, like,

770
01:27:25,291 --> 01:27:26,416
rather than going all

771
01:27:26,416 --> 01:27:27,500
in and having to say,

772
01:27:27,500 --> 01:27:28,708
"I'm going to completely redesign my

773
01:27:28,708 --> 01:27:29,541
class next quarter,"

774
01:27:29,833 --> 01:27:31,000
in addition to everything else I'm doing,

775
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:33,958
like, if I can add one more activity in

776
01:27:33,958 --> 01:27:35,083
or think about how can I get

777
01:27:35,083 --> 01:27:36,375
them to do something in groups

778
01:27:36,375 --> 01:27:37,041
where they're having to

779
01:27:37,041 --> 01:27:38,958
explain things more, you know,

780
01:27:38,958 --> 01:27:41,125
get to those higher levels of learning

781
01:27:41,125 --> 01:27:41,791
where it's more

782
01:27:41,791 --> 01:27:43,958
interactive and problem-based

783
01:27:43,958 --> 01:27:44,750
and I can, you know,

784
01:27:44,750 --> 01:27:45,791
be bringing things in,

785
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:47,291
like, that's-- you know,

786
01:27:47,291 --> 01:27:48,541
that's my goal for my classes.

787
01:27:48,541 --> 01:27:49,875
And what about a graduate class?

788
01:27:50,750 --> 01:27:52,583
I think there's really good advice there

789
01:27:52,583 --> 01:27:54,291
for any newer

790
01:27:54,291 --> 01:27:55,833
instructors out in the audience

791
01:27:55,833 --> 01:27:57,125
that you don't have to

792
01:27:57,125 --> 01:27:58,375
reinvent the entire course

793
01:27:58,375 --> 01:27:59,541
every time you teach the course.

794
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:00,583
And the incremental change

795
01:28:00,583 --> 01:28:02,500
is so much more manageable

796
01:28:02,500 --> 01:28:03,958
and it does get you

797
01:28:03,958 --> 01:28:05,541
really significant improvements

798
01:28:05,541 --> 01:28:07,000
if you're thoughtful about where you make

799
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:08,000
those little changes

800
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:09,166
to where they're needed most.

801
01:28:09,708 --> 01:28:11,125
So what does your graduate class look

802
01:28:11,125 --> 01:28:13,000
like with just 20 students?

803
01:28:13,291 --> 01:28:14,625
Do you teach it

804
01:28:14,625 --> 01:28:15,958
differently than the undergrad?

805
01:28:15,958 --> 01:28:18,000
Is it lecture or do you do a lot of

806
01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:20,291
problem-solving in the classroom?

807
01:28:23,041 --> 01:28:25,583
So this is where my ideal schedule is--

808
01:28:26,041 --> 01:28:27,875
so this one has four

809
01:28:27,875 --> 01:28:30,291
hours a week of class.

810
01:28:31,583 --> 01:28:32,291
And so my ideal

811
01:28:32,291 --> 01:28:33,625
schedule that I like to go to

812
01:28:33,625 --> 01:28:37,166
is aim for about three hours of content

813
01:28:37,166 --> 01:28:39,625
and one hour of problem-solving.

814
01:28:40,875 --> 01:28:42,083
I've tried to, at different

815
01:28:42,083 --> 01:28:43,333
times, do my problem-solving

816
01:28:43,333 --> 01:28:45,916
only on Fridays because that

817
01:28:45,916 --> 01:28:47,750
sometimes has worked better

818
01:28:47,750 --> 01:28:49,958
for my distance learning students,

819
01:28:49,958 --> 01:28:51,333
sometimes to be able to attend live,

820
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:53,000
if they're working from

821
01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:57,000
home or on a 480 schedule.

822
01:28:58,458 --> 01:29:00,083
But then-- so that's

823
01:29:00,083 --> 01:29:00,791
just been practically--

824
01:29:01,041 --> 01:29:01,875
other times it's sort

825
01:29:01,875 --> 01:29:02,875
of then mixing that up.

826
01:29:02,875 --> 01:29:04,250
And so I think keeping in--

827
01:29:04,958 --> 01:29:07,750
we have to cover thermodynamics

828
01:29:07,750 --> 01:29:08,750
and so there is a fair

829
01:29:08,750 --> 01:29:10,000
amount of lecturing in that.

830
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:11,708
But then are there then opportunities

831
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:12,750
rather than only do

832
01:29:12,750 --> 01:29:13,791
Friday problem-solving

833
01:29:13,791 --> 01:29:15,166
to spread out the

834
01:29:15,166 --> 01:29:17,166
problem-solving on some of the other days

835
01:29:17,166 --> 01:29:19,250
so that it's more timely of

836
01:29:19,250 --> 01:29:20,000
where we're learning about it

837
01:29:20,041 --> 01:29:21,416
or you're getting

838
01:29:21,416 --> 01:29:22,625
students to start a problem

839
01:29:22,625 --> 01:29:24,541
and think about the hard concepts.

840
01:29:26,083 --> 01:29:27,333
And then once they've

841
01:29:27,333 --> 01:29:28,458
thought about those hard concepts,

842
01:29:28,458 --> 01:29:29,250
letting them go work

843
01:29:29,250 --> 01:29:30,250
on the problem overnight

844
01:29:30,250 --> 01:29:32,500
and come back so that

845
01:29:32,500 --> 01:29:34,250
we can not spend the time

846
01:29:34,875 --> 01:29:36,083
actually solving the problem.

847
01:29:36,458 --> 01:29:37,791
It's interesting you have

848
01:29:37,791 --> 01:29:39,500
distance learning students

849
01:29:39,500 --> 01:29:40,666
in the same class.

850
01:29:41,250 --> 01:29:41,958
Do they attend

851
01:29:41,958 --> 01:29:43,791
synchronously but just over Zoom

852
01:29:43,791 --> 01:29:45,000
or is it asynchronous?

853
01:29:47,791 --> 01:29:48,541
So this is a program

854
01:29:48,541 --> 01:29:49,000
we've had at UC Davis

855
01:29:49,041 --> 01:29:50,875
for about, I don't know,

856
01:29:51,333 --> 01:29:52,083
longer than I've been here.

857
01:29:52,083 --> 01:29:53,500
I'd say at least 20 years

858
01:29:53,500 --> 01:29:55,250
with Lawrence Livermore National

859
01:29:55,250 --> 01:29:57,750
Lab where they used to watch

860
01:29:57,750 --> 01:30:00,166
class would be video recorded

861
01:30:00,166 --> 01:30:01,625
or sent over there.

862
01:30:03,083 --> 01:30:04,416
And so now the program, what

863
01:30:04,416 --> 01:30:05,750
it is, is the classes are--

864
01:30:06,208 --> 01:30:07,791
because it's a special agreement, the

865
01:30:07,791 --> 01:30:08,708
classes are in a special

866
01:30:08,708 --> 01:30:11,875
room that is set up for live--

867
01:30:12,333 --> 01:30:13,250
where they can attend

868
01:30:13,250 --> 01:30:14,000
live but they're not

869
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:15,458
required to attend live.

870
01:30:16,041 --> 01:30:17,500
You can require them to

871
01:30:17,500 --> 01:30:19,291
attend presentations live,

872
01:30:20,708 --> 01:30:21,208
things like that.

873
01:30:21,500 --> 01:30:23,583
But some colleagues used

874
01:30:23,583 --> 01:30:24,583
to make them come to campus

875
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:26,125
for presentations.

876
01:30:26,375 --> 01:30:28,666
Now I think pretty much we're OK with

877
01:30:28,666 --> 01:30:29,791
virtual presentations

878
01:30:29,791 --> 01:30:32,125
but occasional live attendance.

879
01:30:32,125 --> 01:30:33,083
Otherwise they're just

880
01:30:33,083 --> 01:30:34,583
expected to sort of stay up

881
01:30:34,583 --> 01:30:36,833
on the content on a weekly basis.

882
01:30:37,041 --> 01:30:39,500
But you could say break away from

883
01:30:39,500 --> 01:30:42,000
lecturing for 15, 20 minutes

884
01:30:42,041 --> 01:30:45,000
and have small teams of

885
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:47,041
students work together on Zoom

886
01:30:47,041 --> 01:30:48,250
in like a breakout room.

887
01:30:48,708 --> 01:30:49,375
And even if they're

888
01:30:49,375 --> 01:30:50,875
sitting in a sloped lecture hall,

889
01:30:51,458 --> 01:30:53,458
they're still in a more intimate setting

890
01:30:53,458 --> 01:30:55,666
and that would be very inclusive with

891
01:30:55,666 --> 01:30:56,750
your distance learning

892
01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:58,375
because everyone's

893
01:30:58,375 --> 01:30:59,583
getting the same experience.

894
01:31:00,291 --> 01:31:02,500
And then you can hop from room to room

895
01:31:02,500 --> 01:31:03,500
and see how they're doing.

896
01:31:04,166 --> 01:31:05,750
Have you ever tried something like that?

897
01:31:09,250 --> 01:31:11,791
I haven't tried the Zoom rooms because

898
01:31:11,791 --> 01:31:12,708
that would make the students

899
01:31:12,708 --> 01:31:15,416
then have to actually sign

900
01:31:15,416 --> 01:31:16,625
into Zoom when they're there

901
01:31:16,625 --> 01:31:20,083
as opposed to just being in the same room

902
01:31:20,083 --> 01:31:22,333
where I stop by the different groups.

903
01:31:24,250 --> 01:31:27,583
But I fiddle with the thing.

904
01:31:27,583 --> 01:31:29,500
Do I have them work on homework problems

905
01:31:29,500 --> 01:31:30,500
where they present their homework

906
01:31:30,500 --> 01:31:32,250
problems to each other on Fridays

907
01:31:32,250 --> 01:31:34,000
where they sort of need a set day?

908
01:31:34,041 --> 01:31:36,750
Instead of do this Friday thing, do I

909
01:31:36,750 --> 01:31:38,083
break it up on different days?

910
01:31:38,375 --> 01:31:39,916
And so we only do like half the class.

911
01:31:40,208 --> 01:31:44,083
That's something I'm just actively trying

912
01:31:44,083 --> 01:31:45,750
and just trying to figure out what

913
01:31:45,750 --> 01:31:47,458
structure works for this class.

914
01:31:47,458 --> 01:31:49,041
And again, because this has the

915
01:31:49,041 --> 01:31:50,041
additional complication

916
01:31:50,041 --> 01:31:51,416
of the distance learning students,

917
01:31:51,416 --> 01:31:52,458
what I do in this class

918
01:31:52,458 --> 01:31:53,375
isn't necessarily going to be

919
01:31:53,375 --> 01:31:55,083
the exact same structure that I do.

920
01:31:55,750 --> 01:31:56,750
If I teach an upper division,

921
01:31:57,166 --> 01:31:57,875
if I taught our

922
01:31:57,875 --> 01:31:59,041
undergraduate thermal class,

923
01:31:59,041 --> 01:31:59,875
I wouldn't necessarily

924
01:31:59,875 --> 01:32:01,000
keep everything the same way.

925
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:02,250
I see.

926
01:32:05,750 --> 01:32:07,125
So something I've been wondering about

927
01:32:07,125 --> 01:32:08,625
with the graduate courses,

928
01:32:08,916 --> 01:32:10,000
which to be clear, I

929
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:11,208
don't teach any grad courses,

930
01:32:11,500 --> 01:32:13,666
so my opinion here is purely hearsay.

931
01:32:14,166 --> 01:32:17,625
But I'm aware, at least at Michigan,

932
01:32:17,625 --> 01:32:20,041
that our grad students come from many

933
01:32:20,041 --> 01:32:21,500
different undergraduate fields,

934
01:32:21,500 --> 01:32:23,083
different engineering majors, different

935
01:32:23,083 --> 01:32:25,750
chemistry, physics, math even.

936
01:32:27,583 --> 01:32:28,833
And so there's really not

937
01:32:28,833 --> 01:32:30,000
a lot of shared experience

938
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:31,708
or maybe really any

939
01:32:31,708 --> 01:32:34,291
formal education at all in MSC

940
01:32:34,291 --> 01:32:36,916
that students have in their foundation

941
01:32:36,916 --> 01:32:38,666
when they start grad school

942
01:32:38,666 --> 01:32:40,333
in material science.

943
01:32:41,375 --> 01:32:43,750
So is that similar at Davis?

944
01:32:44,083 --> 01:32:46,000
And if so, how do you handle that?

945
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:46,708
How do you handle the

946
01:32:46,708 --> 01:32:48,208
fact that you're teaching,

947
01:32:48,500 --> 01:32:49,750
like for example, grad thermo

948
01:32:49,750 --> 01:32:51,541
and some of these students maybe never

949
01:32:51,541 --> 01:32:53,000
even saw a phase diagram before?

950
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:53,666
How does that work?

951
01:32:54,416 --> 01:32:55,500
Yeah, you know, it's

952
01:32:55,500 --> 01:32:56,666
definitely a problem here at Davis

953
01:32:56,666 --> 01:32:57,458
and I think is a

954
01:32:57,458 --> 01:32:59,000
problem at many, you know,

955
01:32:59,041 --> 01:33:01,666
many graduate programs in material

956
01:33:01,666 --> 01:33:03,000
science sort of across the board

957
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:05,791
from, you know, the top programs on down.

958
01:33:07,250 --> 01:33:09,000
We talked at one point about doing like a

959
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:11,875
pre-grad school like boot camp

960
01:33:11,875 --> 01:33:13,416
where in one day or in two days,

961
01:33:13,416 --> 01:33:14,250
we were going to like tell them

962
01:33:14,250 --> 01:33:15,000
everything they were

963
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:15,625
going to need to know.

964
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:18,291
I felt like that wasn't going to work.

965
01:33:18,291 --> 01:33:19,750
We replaced it last year with a

966
01:33:19,750 --> 01:33:21,208
programming boot camp instead.

967
01:33:21,541 --> 01:33:23,375
That one's more broadly applicable.

968
01:33:24,791 --> 01:33:26,000
And so what I've had to do is,

969
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:27,208
or what I've chosen

970
01:33:27,208 --> 01:33:29,166
to do is I've created,

971
01:33:29,375 --> 01:33:30,250
it helped a lot because I

972
01:33:30,250 --> 01:33:31,125
got a lot more comfortable

973
01:33:31,125 --> 01:33:31,916
with making short

974
01:33:31,916 --> 01:33:33,375
videos during the pandemic.

975
01:33:34,041 --> 01:33:35,333
But on my Canvas page, I

976
01:33:35,333 --> 01:33:37,250
have like review pages of

977
01:33:37,250 --> 01:33:38,708
here's the things that I expect my

978
01:33:38,708 --> 01:33:40,666
undergrads to know about a phase diagram.

979
01:33:40,875 --> 01:33:41,958
This is like intro level.

980
01:33:42,208 --> 01:33:44,500
Here's what a phase diagram is, you know,

981
01:33:44,500 --> 01:33:46,291
and so pointing students to those

982
01:33:46,291 --> 01:33:47,333
and making it clear in

983
01:33:47,333 --> 01:33:48,250
the first week of class,

984
01:33:48,541 --> 01:33:49,791
like if you, you know,

985
01:33:49,791 --> 01:33:51,208
watch these videos for review.

986
01:33:51,833 --> 01:33:52,791
The other thing we see even

987
01:33:52,791 --> 01:33:53,875
with material science students

988
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:55,500
is their comfort and

989
01:33:55,500 --> 01:33:58,833
knowledge of math is not very good.

990
01:33:59,250 --> 01:34:00,458
And so in thermodynamics,

991
01:34:01,041 --> 01:34:02,916
like knowing what the triangle,

992
01:34:03,208 --> 01:34:04,708
the triangle is a difference

993
01:34:04,708 --> 01:34:06,958
delta versus like, you know,

994
01:34:07,208 --> 01:34:07,791
whether you're

995
01:34:07,791 --> 01:34:10,125
integrating like versus, you know,

996
01:34:11,500 --> 01:34:12,833
the D, you know, the

997
01:34:12,833 --> 01:34:14,416
lowercase VD and the delta,

998
01:34:14,416 --> 01:34:15,708
like knowing that these,

999
01:34:15,708 --> 01:34:17,041
and how do you like, you know,

1000
01:34:17,041 --> 01:34:18,375
how do you take a partial derivative?

1001
01:34:18,625 --> 01:34:20,000
Like knowing some of these

1002
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:22,000
things are actually like we,

1003
01:34:22,041 --> 01:34:23,833
they should know it from math, but they

1004
01:34:23,833 --> 01:34:25,625
sort of glossed over it.

1005
01:34:26,666 --> 01:34:28,083
And so just making sure that like there

1006
01:34:28,083 --> 01:34:29,333
are these resources there

1007
01:34:29,333 --> 01:34:30,750
that students can go to.

1008
01:34:31,333 --> 01:34:32,625
And then also I realized this year, I

1009
01:34:32,625 --> 01:34:35,750
need to find ways to not force,

1010
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:36,708
like you can't force

1011
01:34:36,708 --> 01:34:37,500
the students to go there,

1012
01:34:37,500 --> 01:34:39,125
but how do you really encourage them?

1013
01:34:39,125 --> 01:34:40,958
I had some supplemental

1014
01:34:40,958 --> 01:34:42,125
videos early in the quarter

1015
01:34:42,125 --> 01:34:43,083
where since I was doing

1016
01:34:43,083 --> 01:34:43,916
some more problem solving,

1017
01:34:43,916 --> 01:34:45,541
I was like, watch this video, watch this

1018
01:34:45,541 --> 01:34:46,875
practice problem outside of class.

1019
01:34:46,875 --> 01:34:47,541
I don't have to do this

1020
01:34:47,541 --> 01:34:48,833
practice problem in class.

1021
01:34:48,833 --> 01:34:49,500
Go watch it.

1022
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,208
And like some students would get to the

1023
01:34:51,208 --> 01:34:52,000
homework and they're like,

1024
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:53,041
I don't know how to do it.

1025
01:34:53,041 --> 01:34:53,625
And you're like, did you

1026
01:34:53,625 --> 01:34:55,208
watch any of the practice problems

1027
01:34:55,208 --> 01:34:56,291
that I told you to watch?

1028
01:34:57,041 --> 01:34:59,125
And so just making sure not only that the

1029
01:34:59,125 --> 01:35:00,791
students can find those resources,

1030
01:35:00,791 --> 01:35:02,416
like I've tried to make my, you know,

1031
01:35:02,416 --> 01:35:03,375
canvas page clearer,

1032
01:35:03,375 --> 01:35:04,750
but, you know, really trying

1033
01:35:04,750 --> 01:35:06,125
to tell them like at this point,

1034
01:35:06,125 --> 01:35:07,666
you know, I'm not going to do this, but

1035
01:35:07,666 --> 01:35:09,291
there is a video for you.

1036
01:35:09,541 --> 01:35:11,041
There are some resources here.

1037
01:35:11,041 --> 01:35:12,458
There are some practice problems.

1038
01:35:12,666 --> 01:35:15,166
I've posted my intro to material science,

1039
01:35:15,166 --> 01:35:16,666
like how to do the lever rule.

1040
01:35:16,666 --> 01:35:18,000
Go do those practice problems.

1041
01:35:18,041 --> 01:35:19,833
I have plenty of them.

1042
01:35:20,791 --> 01:35:22,208
And so getting students to do that and

1043
01:35:22,208 --> 01:35:23,875
especially trying to do it early in the

1044
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:26,166
early in the quarter, just because before

1045
01:35:26,166 --> 01:35:27,583
things really get busy, you know,

1046
01:35:27,583 --> 01:35:29,625
they have the first week or two, it's,

1047
01:35:29,625 --> 01:35:30,291
you know, week and a half.

1048
01:35:30,291 --> 01:35:31,416
It's slow anyway.

1049
01:35:31,416 --> 01:35:32,708
So that's a great opportunity if you

1050
01:35:32,708 --> 01:35:34,666
haven't learned those things to spend

1051
01:35:34,666 --> 01:35:37,000
some time and go, you know, catch up on

1052
01:35:37,000 --> 01:35:38,083
what you do, what you need.

1053
01:35:38,083 --> 01:35:38,708
And some students do

1054
01:35:38,708 --> 01:35:39,500
really great with that.

1055
01:35:39,500 --> 01:35:40,708
And some others just need a little bit

1056
01:35:40,708 --> 01:35:43,583
more, you know, push and check ins.

1057
01:35:44,666 --> 01:35:46,333
And so, you know, it's funny you talk about math.

1058
01:35:46,583 --> 01:35:50,208
Our last episode is all about our

1059
01:35:50,208 --> 01:35:52,000
problems with our students with math.

1060
01:35:52,500 --> 01:35:53,708
And Tim has the solution.

1061
01:35:53,958 --> 01:35:56,583
He's going to teach a new sophomore level

1062
01:35:56,583 --> 01:35:59,583
math course for our students.

1063
01:35:59,583 --> 01:36:00,708
So you can listen to

1064
01:36:00,708 --> 01:36:01,708
that to hear about that.

1065
01:36:02,916 --> 01:36:05,500
I have the nucleus of

1066
01:36:05,500 --> 01:36:06,833
a potential solution.

1067
01:36:06,833 --> 01:36:08,666
Let's not oversell this too much.

1068
01:36:10,041 --> 01:36:11,291
But I think it's really good.

1069
01:36:12,166 --> 01:36:15,625
Yeah, I think in talking to our

1070
01:36:15,625 --> 01:36:17,750
department chair, Liz Holm,

1071
01:36:17,750 --> 01:36:20,291
who's been meeting with other chairs of

1072
01:36:20,291 --> 01:36:22,166
the materials community,

1073
01:36:22,166 --> 01:36:25,208
you know, at the UMC, she told me that

1074
01:36:25,208 --> 01:36:28,125
every single program is facing this

1075
01:36:28,125 --> 01:36:31,666
problem that they don't know whether it's

1076
01:36:31,666 --> 01:36:33,750
because of COVID and students

1077
01:36:33,750 --> 01:36:36,458
just didn't learn as much math or if this

1078
01:36:36,458 --> 01:36:38,000
has just always been a problem.

1079
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:42,291
But it's a real problem across all of our

1080
01:36:42,291 --> 01:36:44,291
materials programs that our

1081
01:36:45,041 --> 01:36:47,125
students just aren't at the level of math

1082
01:36:47,125 --> 01:36:49,166
that we really think they need to be

1083
01:36:49,166 --> 01:36:53,000
to understand the concepts and thermo and

1084
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:55,333
kinetics and things like that

1085
01:36:55,333 --> 01:36:56,250
where you need partial

1086
01:36:56,250 --> 01:36:57,250
differential equations.

1087
01:36:59,125 --> 01:37:01,250
So I feel your pain.

1088
01:37:04,041 --> 01:37:06,125
My other comment related to that, Steve,

1089
01:37:06,125 --> 01:37:08,625
is I'll put a shout out,

1090
01:37:08,625 --> 01:37:09,541
not a shout out, a

1091
01:37:09,541 --> 01:37:10,791
call out to the community.

1092
01:37:11,166 --> 01:37:13,250
I think that someone should create a

1093
01:37:13,250 --> 01:37:14,916
series of like an

1094
01:37:14,916 --> 01:37:16,875
online class or something

1095
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:17,916
that's intro to

1096
01:37:17,916 --> 01:37:19,958
material science for like.

1097
01:37:20,250 --> 01:37:22,041
So Jim Shackelford has 10 things every

1098
01:37:22,041 --> 01:37:23,583
engineer should know

1099
01:37:23,583 --> 01:37:24,625
about material science.

1100
01:37:24,625 --> 01:37:25,250
And I've looked at that,

1101
01:37:25,250 --> 01:37:26,291
but that's like to applied.

1102
01:37:26,500 --> 01:37:29,000
We need 10 things every new graduate

1103
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:30,958
student in material science should know

1104
01:37:31,041 --> 01:37:32,208
about material science.

1105
01:37:33,166 --> 01:37:34,916
Like here's the concepts that you might

1106
01:37:34,916 --> 01:37:36,166
have missed if you were a chemistry

1107
01:37:36,166 --> 01:37:37,916
student or mechanical engineering.

1108
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:41,458
We're going to give you some fundamentals

1109
01:37:41,458 --> 01:37:42,916
so you can get started.

1110
01:37:42,916 --> 01:37:43,833
That's a great idea.

1111
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:47,166
MIT used that idea for

1112
01:37:47,166 --> 01:37:48,500
math in graduate school.

1113
01:37:48,500 --> 01:37:50,666
So they have a boot camp for math.

1114
01:37:51,541 --> 01:37:52,541
And I went and enrolled

1115
01:37:52,541 --> 01:37:53,958
in it and I looked at it.

1116
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:55,833
And in 10 minutes I realized this is

1117
01:37:55,833 --> 01:37:59,000
terrible because you couldn't read any

1118
01:37:59,041 --> 01:37:59,833
of the writing.

1119
01:38:00,375 --> 01:38:01,458
They used some weird

1120
01:38:01,458 --> 01:38:03,291
script that got pixelated.

1121
01:38:03,833 --> 01:38:05,000
You couldn't even read it.

1122
01:38:05,000 --> 01:38:07,750
And then they had these people who were

1123
01:38:07,750 --> 01:38:10,583
teaching it who just didn't sync with me

1124
01:38:10,583 --> 01:38:11,291
at all.

1125
01:38:11,833 --> 01:38:14,375
And they were writing on the fancy light

1126
01:38:14,375 --> 01:38:16,708
boards behind the glass and all of that.

1127
01:38:17,083 --> 01:38:19,083
But their handwriting was terrible and I

1128
01:38:19,083 --> 01:38:20,208
couldn't understand what they were

1129
01:38:20,208 --> 01:38:20,541
writing.

1130
01:38:22,125 --> 01:38:22,625
And I was like, oh,

1131
01:38:22,875 --> 01:38:24,416
I'm going to write this.

1132
01:38:24,416 --> 01:38:26,041
I'm going to write this. It was a great idea.

1133
01:38:26,375 --> 01:38:27,791
But it has to be

1134
01:38:27,791 --> 01:38:31,708
implemented well to be useful.

1135
01:38:32,583 --> 01:38:34,416
So I think that's a great idea.

1136
01:38:34,416 --> 01:38:38,375
You should write a research proposal and

1137
01:38:38,375 --> 01:38:40,375
start soliciting people to help you

1138
01:38:40,375 --> 01:38:40,666
out.

1139
01:38:40,666 --> 01:38:41,166
That would be great.

1140
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:45,500
See if anyone would actually give me

1141
01:38:45,500 --> 01:38:46,208
money or if it just

1142
01:38:46,208 --> 01:38:47,041
becomes another one of

1143
01:38:47,041 --> 01:38:49,916
my projects that I work on.

1144
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:51,083
And I'm not even sure
if it's a good idea to do that.

1145
01:38:51,083 --> 01:38:51,916
You could.

1146
01:38:52,916 --> 01:38:54,416
And it's hard to do.

1147
01:38:54,416 --> 01:38:56,541
I tried to have an open source textbook.

1148
01:38:56,875 --> 01:38:58,166
And the logistics.

1149
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:00,208
I'm not even sure if

1150
01:39:00,208 --> 01:39:01,791
textbook is the right thing to do.

1151
01:39:02,166 --> 01:39:04,000
Maybe a series of

1152
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:05,500
videos would be a lot better.

1153
01:39:06,333 --> 01:39:07,375
I just don't know.

1154
01:39:09,041 --> 01:39:12,041
Maybe we need to train a personal

1155
01:39:12,041 --> 01:39:13,708
coaching AI model on

1156
01:39:13,708 --> 01:39:14,958
fundamentals of material

1157
01:39:14,958 --> 01:39:15,375
science.

1158
01:39:18,041 --> 01:39:21,041
And I'm happy to not volunteer.

1159
01:39:21,458 --> 01:39:22,416
I'm happy to not volunteer.

1160
01:39:22,416 --> 01:39:26,583
Oh, you are asking a fun question.

1161
01:39:27,291 --> 01:39:30,375
I just got back from a workshop, an NSF

1162
01:39:30,375 --> 01:39:32,166
sponsored workshop on using large

1163
01:39:32,166 --> 01:39:34,666
language models in chemistry and

1164
01:39:34,666 --> 01:39:35,916
materials education.

1165
01:39:36,916 --> 01:39:38,708
I have to admit, it is one of those that

1166
01:39:38,708 --> 01:39:40,416
seemed like an interesting conference to

1167
01:39:40,416 --> 01:39:40,791
go to.

1168
01:39:40,791 --> 01:39:42,208
I didn't have a lot of experience.

1169
01:39:43,291 --> 01:39:44,125
And then they asked me to

1170
01:39:44,125 --> 01:39:45,000
give a three minute update.

1171
01:39:45,041 --> 01:39:46,958
They are asking a bunch of people to give

1172
01:39:46,958 --> 01:39:48,541
updates on what is going on on campus.

1173
01:39:48,541 --> 01:39:49,500
And I'm like, you know, we are not

1174
01:39:49,500 --> 01:39:50,625
actually doing that much.

1175
01:39:51,750 --> 01:39:52,583
But it was actually interesting.

1176
01:39:52,833 --> 01:39:54,708
There were two camps.

1177
01:39:54,708 --> 01:39:57,291
There were people doing a lot or had more

1178
01:39:57,291 --> 01:39:59,041
of a programming background and thinking

1179
01:39:59,041 --> 01:40:00,875
about fancy tools we could develop.

1180
01:40:00,875 --> 01:40:02,083
And then there was all of us who were

1181
01:40:02,083 --> 01:40:03,458
like, we even think about how we should

1182
01:40:03,458 --> 01:40:03,958
use it more.

1183
01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:06,250
And so it was really great, though.

1184
01:40:06,250 --> 01:40:07,166
It was a two-day workshop.

1185
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:08,958
And so the second day was

1186
01:40:08,958 --> 01:40:10,541
just breaking people into groups.

1187
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:13,500
And so the first day we had brainstormed

1188
01:40:13,500 --> 01:40:16,041
different deliverables or things that we

1189
01:40:16,041 --> 01:40:17,333
could develop the second day.

1190
01:40:17,333 --> 01:40:18,708
And then breaking up into groups to

1191
01:40:18,708 --> 01:40:20,291
develop some of those things.

1192
01:40:20,291 --> 01:40:21,916
And so to start playing with

1193
01:40:21,916 --> 01:40:23,250
the tools a little bit more.

1194
01:40:24,291 --> 01:40:26,000
So some people were proposing how you

1195
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:27,500
could use a chat GPT

1196
01:40:27,500 --> 01:40:31,375
tool to sort of create

1197
01:40:31,375 --> 01:40:33,583
study things for students or to give

1198
01:40:33,583 --> 01:40:37,625
automated feedback on their writing.

1199
01:40:39,000 --> 01:40:39,875
And so we started looking at the group I

1200
01:40:39,875 --> 01:40:40,833
was in was looking at

1201
01:40:40,833 --> 01:40:41,750
how do you use it to

1202
01:40:41,750 --> 01:40:44,625
help do a better job with figures.

1203
01:40:45,708 --> 01:40:47,041
And so we specifically then started

1204
01:40:47,041 --> 01:40:48,208
looking at how you

1205
01:40:48,208 --> 01:40:49,583
could use it to generate

1206
01:40:49,583 --> 01:40:52,583
Python code for you to do

1207
01:40:52,583 --> 01:40:53,916
some of this data analysis.

1208
01:40:54,916 --> 01:40:56,833
And so just to really think about in this

1209
01:40:56,833 --> 01:40:59,166
case, I got fiddling with stress strain

1210
01:40:59,166 --> 01:41:01,583
curves that I do in my intro class.

1211
01:41:01,583 --> 01:41:04,583
And so just thinking through things like

1212
01:41:04,583 --> 01:41:06,500
how could we, rather than thinking about

1213
01:41:07,041 --> 01:41:12,083
how do we use it to like, for good.

1214
01:41:12,708 --> 01:41:15,166
And so in my intro class, you know, it's

1215
01:41:15,166 --> 01:41:16,250
important for them to

1216
01:41:16,250 --> 01:41:17,416
be able to they collect

1217
01:41:17,416 --> 01:41:19,625
data, they do tensile tests in lab, but

1218
01:41:19,625 --> 01:41:21,208
they need to be able to like, you know,

1219
01:41:21,416 --> 01:41:24,000
determine not only the tensile strength,

1220
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:24,833
that one's easy, but

1221
01:41:24,833 --> 01:41:25,541
they have to figure out

1222
01:41:25,541 --> 01:41:26,875
how do you select the points for the

1223
01:41:26,875 --> 01:41:28,375
elastic modulus and fit a line.

1224
01:41:28,958 --> 01:41:30,583
How do you determine the yield strength

1225
01:41:30,583 --> 01:41:31,958
and that like the

1226
01:41:31,958 --> 01:41:33,541
cognitive load of having to

1227
01:41:33,541 --> 01:41:37,000
try and figure out how to do that when I get some students in this class every year.

1228
01:41:37,000 --> 01:41:38,250
Who don't know how to use Excel.

1229
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:40,291
And so we're having to like, you know,

1230
01:41:40,291 --> 01:41:41,500
get them up into the

1231
01:41:41,500 --> 01:41:42,666
basics of here's how to

1232
01:41:42,666 --> 01:41:43,333
use Excel.

1233
01:41:43,541 --> 01:41:44,958
Here's how to like insert equations.

1234
01:41:45,166 --> 01:41:47,583
Here's how to import data, you know, and

1235
01:41:47,583 --> 01:41:48,875
then like, that's just

1236
01:41:48,875 --> 01:41:50,000
a big jump that we're

1237
01:41:50,000 --> 01:41:51,500
really expecting in this intro level

1238
01:41:51,500 --> 01:41:53,166
class of having to fit

1239
01:41:53,166 --> 01:41:54,458
a line to only a subset

1240
01:41:54,458 --> 01:41:57,291
of points, move that line over by 0.2%

1241
01:41:57,625 --> 01:41:59,750
and look at where that line intersects.

1242
01:41:59,750 --> 01:42:00,000
Sorry.

1243
01:42:00,916 --> 01:42:01,000
In theory, intersects
interpolates, you know, more than one point.

1244
01:42:01,041 --> 01:42:03,666
In theory, intersects interpolates, you

1245
01:42:03,666 --> 01:42:05,666
know, discrete data points.

1246
01:42:05,666 --> 01:42:07,125
It never intersects some nice pretty

1247
01:42:07,125 --> 01:42:08,041
curve, but these are

1248
01:42:08,041 --> 01:42:09,125
discrete data points.

1249
01:42:09,125 --> 01:42:11,208
And like, that's a lot of things that

1250
01:42:11,208 --> 01:42:12,333
we're having tasks that

1251
01:42:12,333 --> 01:42:13,041
we're having to get students

1252
01:42:13,041 --> 01:42:15,416
to do just to analyze this data.

1253
01:42:15,416 --> 01:42:17,500
And so, you know, are there things like

1254
01:42:17,500 --> 01:42:18,958
that that we should maybe consider about

1255
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:20,875
lowering the cognitive load so that

1256
01:42:20,875 --> 01:42:22,166
students can focus on

1257
01:42:22,166 --> 01:42:23,583
the material science or the

1258
01:42:23,583 --> 01:42:25,375
things that we want them to learn and

1259
01:42:25,375 --> 01:42:27,541
less about this like

1260
01:42:27,541 --> 01:42:29,000
data analysis and maybe if

1261
01:42:29,041 --> 01:42:31,333
they could generate some Python code for

1262
01:42:31,333 --> 01:42:32,750
them to do it and they

1263
01:42:32,750 --> 01:42:33,833
want to do it that way,

1264
01:42:34,000 --> 01:42:35,000
like maybe there are

1265
01:42:35,000 --> 01:42:36,000
some opportunities there.

1266
01:42:36,458 --> 01:42:39,541
As long as you test whether or not it's

1267
01:42:39,541 --> 01:42:40,458
telling you the truth.

1268
01:42:43,375 --> 01:42:44,708
Oh, I mean, I could not.

1269
01:42:44,708 --> 01:42:46,708
I spent a while trying to get it to give

1270
01:42:46,708 --> 01:42:47,541
me the yield strength

1271
01:42:47,541 --> 01:42:48,458
correctly and it gave me

1272
01:42:48,458 --> 01:42:49,708
a lot of wrong yield strength.

1273
01:42:50,375 --> 01:42:51,375
And it's very polite when you tell.

1274
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:53,500
That one didn't make it into our examples

1275
01:42:53,500 --> 01:42:54,125
that we were putting

1276
01:42:54,125 --> 01:42:56,000
in, you know, but it's

1277
01:42:56,041 --> 01:42:58,000
just realizing, I think, you know,

1278
01:42:58,500 --> 01:42:59,000
realizing I need to take

1279
01:42:59,000 --> 01:42:59,916
my head out of the sand.

1280
01:43:00,416 --> 01:43:01,916
You know, I can't sort of sit here and

1281
01:43:01,916 --> 01:43:03,083
pretend that it doesn't,

1282
01:43:03,083 --> 01:43:04,166
you know, chat GPT isn't

1283
01:43:04,166 --> 01:43:04,625
a thing.

1284
01:43:05,166 --> 01:43:06,250
I know it's here and it's

1285
01:43:06,250 --> 01:43:07,000
just going to get better.

1286
01:43:07,250 --> 01:43:08,500
And so, like, are there opportunities

1287
01:43:08,500 --> 01:43:10,083
rather than to see, say,

1288
01:43:10,083 --> 01:43:10,708
it's just going to be here

1289
01:43:10,708 --> 01:43:11,833
for bad, but like, are there

1290
01:43:11,833 --> 01:43:12,791
opportunities for it to

1291
01:43:12,791 --> 01:43:14,500
like critique figures and, you

1292
01:43:14,500 --> 01:43:16,041
know, give students some of that feedback

1293
01:43:16,041 --> 01:43:17,583
to help, like, you

1294
01:43:17,583 --> 01:43:19,166
know, manage our workload

1295
01:43:19,166 --> 01:43:20,833
but also give students, you know, just in

1296
01:43:20,833 --> 01:43:22,500
time, timely feedback.

1297
01:43:22,500 --> 01:43:23,000
One way.

1298
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:24,791
So that was just interesting

1299
01:43:24,791 --> 01:43:26,250
discussions to have about that.

1300
01:43:26,708 --> 01:43:30,916
One way to get better quality answers is

1301
01:43:30,916 --> 01:43:34,250
to only use a curated data set.

1302
01:43:35,458 --> 01:43:37,791
So at Michigan, they've got this thing

1303
01:43:37,791 --> 01:43:39,916
where they can scrape

1304
01:43:39,916 --> 01:43:42,875
your Canvas website, pick

1305
01:43:42,875 --> 01:43:45,958
up all your recorded lectures, and that's

1306
01:43:45,958 --> 01:43:48,041
the only place where

1307
01:43:48,041 --> 01:43:49,666
the large language model

1308
01:43:49,666 --> 01:43:51,000
looks for answers.

1309
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:53,250
So it's your own material.

1310
01:43:54,625 --> 01:43:56,916
And so we've just set that up.

1311
01:43:56,916 --> 01:43:57,333
And, of course,

1312
01:43:57,333 --> 01:43:59,500
students can ask any question.

1313
01:43:59,833 --> 01:44:01,583
And then at first, I was very critical of

1314
01:44:01,583 --> 01:44:04,833
it because it's like, come on, that's not

1315
01:44:04,833 --> 01:44:07,166
a very active learning activity to just

1316
01:44:07,166 --> 01:44:08,875
ask a question and get an answer.

1317
01:44:09,375 --> 01:44:10,125
And they said, no,

1318
01:44:10,125 --> 01:44:11,416
no, no, no, it's coming.

1319
01:44:11,708 --> 01:44:13,875
It's not there yet, but it's coming that

1320
01:44:13,875 --> 01:44:19,000
we're going to be able to respond with a

1321
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:21,166
question to a student's question and give

1322
01:44:21,166 --> 01:44:22,750
them places to look.

1323
01:44:23,791 --> 01:44:25,541
Well, that day has already come.

1324
01:44:25,541 --> 01:44:27,416
They told me this two months ago, and

1325
01:44:27,416 --> 01:44:29,333
they just set me up for it yesterday.

1326
01:44:30,291 --> 01:44:31,375
And it is amazing.

1327
01:44:31,625 --> 01:44:32,958
I ask a question like,

1328
01:44:32,958 --> 01:44:35,500
what is an edge dislocation?

1329
01:44:35,875 --> 01:44:38,166
And it comes back and says, ah,

1330
01:44:38,166 --> 01:44:39,250
dislocations are a

1331
01:44:39,250 --> 01:44:40,875
very interesting topic.

1332
01:44:41,833 --> 01:44:43,625
They're used to describe, you know,

1333
01:44:43,625 --> 01:44:45,000
deformation in materials.

1334
01:44:45,041 --> 01:44:47,125
But to answer your question, you should

1335
01:44:47,125 --> 01:44:48,875
consider the following few

1336
01:44:48,875 --> 01:44:50,750
things and think about it.

1337
01:44:51,625 --> 01:44:52,333
And that's a much

1338
01:44:52,333 --> 01:44:54,333
better answer for a student.

1339
01:44:54,541 --> 01:44:57,250
It won't give them the answer, but guides

1340
01:44:57,250 --> 01:44:59,791
them on a path to discover it themselves.

1341
01:45:00,958 --> 01:45:04,083
So I'm very excited that that's here.

1342
01:45:05,000 --> 01:45:05,833
So we'll see.

1343
01:45:06,791 --> 01:45:07,666
But I agree with you.

1344
01:45:07,666 --> 01:45:09,291
You cannot put your head in the sand.

1345
01:45:09,291 --> 01:45:09,666
It's here.

1346
01:45:09,958 --> 01:45:11,000
The box is open.

1347
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:11,875
It's out in the wild.

1348
01:45:12,041 --> 01:45:14,000
We either learn how to use

1349
01:45:14,000 --> 01:45:17,125
it or it could consume us all.

1350
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:19,583
Yep.

1351
01:45:19,833 --> 01:45:21,416
We didn't throw away calculators.

1352
01:45:21,416 --> 01:45:22,375
We didn't throw away computers.

1353
01:45:22,583 --> 01:45:23,333
We didn't throw away.

1354
01:45:23,333 --> 01:45:23,958
Well, OK, some people

1355
01:45:23,958 --> 01:45:25,000
threw away their slide rules.

1356
01:45:25,250 --> 01:45:26,833
But, you know, it's a tool.

1357
01:45:27,166 --> 01:45:29,458
We have to figure out how to use it well.

1358
01:45:29,708 --> 01:45:29,916
Exactly.

1359
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:31,666
As students said, let's use it for good.

1360
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:36,500
My biggest fear with it is if it's going

1361
01:45:36,500 --> 01:45:39,916
to end up turning assessments into, you

1362
01:45:39,916 --> 01:45:40,708
know, because we need to

1363
01:45:40,708 --> 01:45:41,000
make sure that students are

1364
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:42,375
mastering concepts.

1365
01:45:42,583 --> 01:45:45,375
My biggest fear is how do we keep it from

1366
01:45:45,375 --> 01:45:47,000
turning assessments and just being like,

1367
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:49,000
well, we'll only do in person, in class

1368
01:45:49,000 --> 01:45:50,625
exams or, you know,

1369
01:45:50,958 --> 01:45:52,000
assessments like that.

1370
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:54,875
Whereas I used to give a lot of my

1371
01:45:54,875 --> 01:45:56,583
ability to give assignments, they say

1372
01:45:56,583 --> 01:45:59,083
read and summarize a paper as a part of

1373
01:45:59,083 --> 01:46:01,083
their homework decreases.

1374
01:46:01,541 --> 01:46:04,125
And so how do I, you know, assess some of

1375
01:46:04,125 --> 01:46:07,291
that as well and get students to do those

1376
01:46:07,291 --> 01:46:08,000
those learning activities?

1377
01:46:08,000 --> 01:46:10,333
While it's fraught with problems, my

1378
01:46:10,333 --> 01:46:14,833
dream is that we can use generative A.I.

1379
01:46:14,833 --> 01:46:17,083
to actually do the assessment for our

1380
01:46:17,083 --> 01:46:20,625
students in terms of, say, an oral exam,

1381
01:46:20,833 --> 01:46:21,875
like we talked about.

1382
01:46:21,875 --> 01:46:24,333
Have you played with the OpenAI Apple,

1383
01:46:24,541 --> 01:46:26,333
you know, the OpenAI app?

1384
01:46:26,916 --> 01:46:28,583
You push the little headphones and you

1385
01:46:28,583 --> 01:46:31,166
can talk to it and it talks back to you.

1386
01:46:31,708 --> 01:46:32,500
It can hear.

1387
01:46:32,500 --> 01:46:34,416
It can understand what you're saying.

1388
01:46:35,416 --> 01:46:37,791
And very soon you get into a

1389
01:46:37,791 --> 01:46:40,041
conversation, you forget that it's a bot.

1390
01:46:40,041 --> 01:46:40,791
You think it's a human.

1391
01:46:41,541 --> 01:46:43,333
In fact, Tim and I were playing with it

1392
01:46:43,333 --> 01:46:44,625
and we said, what's your name?

1393
01:46:45,083 --> 01:46:46,083
I was like, no answer.

1394
01:46:46,541 --> 01:46:47,875
And we said, can we call you Mary?

1395
01:46:48,375 --> 01:46:50,833
And all of a sudden she says, well, you

1396
01:46:50,833 --> 01:46:52,083
can call me Mary if you

1397
01:46:52,083 --> 01:46:53,458
like, but my name is Max.

1398
01:46:57,000 --> 01:47:00,291
And if it could get to the point where

1399
01:47:00,291 --> 01:47:03,708
you could in the prompts that set it up,

1400
01:47:04,041 --> 01:47:06,833
interact with the student to assess

1401
01:47:06,833 --> 01:47:10,375
learning based on rubrics that you put

1402
01:47:10,375 --> 01:47:12,875
into it, it might make

1403
01:47:12,875 --> 01:47:14,291
an oral exam scalable.

1404
01:47:15,250 --> 01:47:16,666
Of course, it's going to take a lot of

1405
01:47:16,666 --> 01:47:20,208
work to make sure that it's telling you

1406
01:47:20,208 --> 01:47:22,000
the truth and not just hallucinating.

1407
01:47:23,333 --> 01:47:27,375
In fact, in the thing I just got from the

1408
01:47:27,375 --> 01:47:29,625
university or Mazey, they call it,

1409
01:47:29,625 --> 01:47:31,166
there's a little temperature slider.

1410
01:47:31,833 --> 01:47:33,541
And they said, you can think of it as

1411
01:47:33,541 --> 01:47:35,500
temperature, but we like to think of it

1412
01:47:35,500 --> 01:47:37,541
as the hallucination meter.

1413
01:47:38,041 --> 01:47:39,541
If you put it up to two,

1414
01:47:39,541 --> 01:47:40,833
it really hallucinates.

1415
01:47:40,833 --> 01:47:43,458
If you say, what's the color of the sky?

1416
01:47:43,458 --> 01:47:45,500
It'll say purple if you're

1417
01:47:45,500 --> 01:47:46,791
on this planet or something.

1418
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:49,375
Yeah. And you can adjust how

1419
01:47:49,375 --> 01:47:51,833
creative you're going to let it be.

1420
01:47:52,791 --> 01:47:54,875
And this is happening so fast.

1421
01:47:55,791 --> 01:47:58,000
And, you know, they're

1422
01:47:58,000 --> 01:47:59,375
going to learn how to that.

1423
01:47:59,375 --> 01:48:00,125
They're not quite there

1424
01:48:00,125 --> 01:48:01,291
for figures and graphs.

1425
01:48:01,291 --> 01:48:03,166
They're not quite there with Greek and

1426
01:48:03,166 --> 01:48:06,166
equations, but it's going to happen soon.

1427
01:48:07,375 --> 01:48:08,125
So who knows?

1428
01:48:09,500 --> 01:48:11,000
I mean, it can already take your exam.

1429
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:13,791
Liz Holm told us she gave

1430
01:48:13,791 --> 01:48:16,208
us her advanced thermo exam.

1431
01:48:17,125 --> 01:48:18,625
And this was then this

1432
01:48:18,625 --> 01:48:20,041
was almost a year ago.

1433
01:48:20,375 --> 01:48:22,291
Well, yeah, almost a year ago.

1434
01:48:22,708 --> 01:48:26,208
And it scored like eighty seven percent

1435
01:48:26,208 --> 01:48:28,541
on her really hard thermal exam.

1436
01:48:29,833 --> 01:48:30,666
So who knows?

1437
01:48:32,083 --> 01:48:32,708
I think it's going to

1438
01:48:32,708 --> 01:48:33,000
be very interesting.

1439
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:38,875
You know, I saw the data of how they're

1440
01:48:38,875 --> 01:48:41,000
bragging how well it can do on the AP

1441
01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:45,000
exams and the bar exam and other.

1442
01:48:45,583 --> 01:48:46,583
On the other hand, a lot of

1443
01:48:46,583 --> 01:48:48,250
times it gets things dead wrong.

1444
01:48:49,375 --> 01:48:53,416
Like if you ask it to explain the

1445
01:48:53,416 --> 01:48:56,166
pedagogical value of midterms midterm

1446
01:48:56,166 --> 01:48:58,958
exams, it'll just go off and talk about

1447
01:48:58,958 --> 01:49:00,000
how wonderful they are.

1448
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:04,000
And nothing's better than an exam. And then when you ask it, what about the

1449
01:49:04,000 --> 01:49:06,833
research that, you know, people forget

1450
01:49:06,833 --> 01:49:09,500
everything that they just presented two

1451
01:49:09,500 --> 01:49:12,333
days after they take the exam, it'll go,

1452
01:49:12,708 --> 01:49:14,583
well, there are a few

1453
01:49:14,583 --> 01:49:16,166
studies that say that.

1454
01:49:16,750 --> 01:49:19,583
But it's very funny.

1455
01:49:22,333 --> 01:49:23,958
People also at the workshop got talking

1456
01:49:23,958 --> 01:49:25,833
about different, you know,

1457
01:49:25,833 --> 01:49:26,000
everyone here is a chat G.B.T.

1458
01:49:26,041 --> 01:49:29,000
But there are other like

1459
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:30,750
A.I. tools that can be useful.

1460
01:49:31,333 --> 01:49:32,291
I don't have them.

1461
01:49:32,291 --> 01:49:33,000
I don't remember them.

1462
01:49:33,291 --> 01:49:34,375
But, you know, in terms of

1463
01:49:34,375 --> 01:49:36,083
like, oh, you know, chat G.B.T.

1464
01:49:36,083 --> 01:49:37,833
Very bad at doing a literature review.

1465
01:49:38,666 --> 01:49:40,458
But there are sort of, you know, we're

1466
01:49:40,458 --> 01:49:42,083
identifying papers on a topic, but there

1467
01:49:42,083 --> 01:49:43,875
are other tools that are out there that

1468
01:49:43,875 --> 01:49:45,291
are more developed for

1469
01:49:45,291 --> 01:49:46,208
helping you find that.

1470
01:49:46,208 --> 01:49:48,125
And so, you know, again, opportunities to

1471
01:49:48,125 --> 01:49:50,125
use some of those tools to identify, you

1472
01:49:50,125 --> 01:49:54,625
know, key pieces of literature or help us

1473
01:49:54,625 --> 01:49:55,000
as researchers when we're, you know, we're trying to find out what we're doing.

1474
01:49:56,041 --> 01:49:58,833
You know, doing a literature review, you

1475
01:49:58,833 --> 01:50:00,250
know, so there are sort of,

1476
01:50:00,250 --> 01:50:02,166
you know, multitude of tools.

1477
01:50:02,166 --> 01:50:03,625
And so not just necessarily having to

1478
01:50:03,625 --> 01:50:04,916
think about, oh, it's

1479
01:50:04,916 --> 01:50:05,833
chat G.B.T. or nothing.

1480
01:50:06,833 --> 01:50:08,250
And so it's not just, well, chat G.B.T.

1481
01:50:08,250 --> 01:50:09,500
versus Google Gemini

1482
01:50:09,500 --> 01:50:11,458
versus, you know, this and that.

1483
01:50:11,666 --> 01:50:14,333
But other tools that are using some of

1484
01:50:14,333 --> 01:50:15,458
these these technologies.

1485
01:50:18,250 --> 01:50:20,250
I think that's a great approach when I'm

1486
01:50:20,250 --> 01:50:22,708
thinking about what tools do I want to

1487
01:50:22,708 --> 01:50:24,000
use or teach with my students.

1488
01:50:24,041 --> 01:50:25,875
The question is always, do I use this in

1489
01:50:25,875 --> 01:50:27,583
my own life, like my own professional

1490
01:50:27,583 --> 01:50:29,375
life? If so, yeah, it's probably worth

1491
01:50:29,375 --> 01:50:30,541
teaching because there are some tools

1492
01:50:30,541 --> 01:50:32,875
that have helped me out and saved me, you

1493
01:50:32,875 --> 01:50:34,000
know, a lot of wasted hours.

1494
01:50:34,500 --> 01:50:36,333
So may as well start

1495
01:50:36,333 --> 01:50:37,750
the conversation there.

1496
01:50:39,375 --> 01:50:41,500
Looking at the clock, though, we've had a

1497
01:50:41,500 --> 01:50:42,583
great conversation here.

1498
01:50:42,875 --> 01:50:44,166
I think it's time to wrap up.

1499
01:50:44,958 --> 01:50:47,000
Susan, before we call it a day, we always

1500
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:48,500
like to offer the guests if there's

1501
01:50:48,500 --> 01:50:50,208
anything you want to brag about any plugs

1502
01:50:50,208 --> 01:50:52,875
you want to make just any any info you

1503
01:50:52,875 --> 01:50:53,000
want to get out there.

1504
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:55,875
This is your free advertising platform.

1505
01:50:56,458 --> 01:50:58,166
So take it away if there's anything you

1506
01:50:58,166 --> 01:50:59,291
want the audience to know.

1507
01:51:00,416 --> 01:51:00,916
I don't know that I

1508
01:51:00,916 --> 01:51:02,000
have anything to advertise.

1509
01:51:02,000 --> 01:51:03,750
I just encourage you to get involved with

1510
01:51:03,750 --> 01:51:04,875
the materials community.

1511
01:51:05,750 --> 01:51:06,750
You know, there's a variety of

1512
01:51:06,750 --> 01:51:09,666
conferences and and things I'm involved

1513
01:51:09,666 --> 01:51:11,458
in the American Society

1514
01:51:11,458 --> 01:51:12,708
for Engineering Education.

1515
01:51:12,708 --> 01:51:13,750
We have a materials division.

1516
01:51:14,666 --> 01:51:16,208
There is the North American Materials

1517
01:51:16,208 --> 01:51:18,750
Education Symposium NAMES that, you know,

1518
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:20,000
Steve was talking about at the beginning.

1519
01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:23,000
I'm also on the TMS Education Committee,

1520
01:51:23,291 --> 01:51:25,291
you know, so just opportunities for those

1521
01:51:25,291 --> 01:51:28,291
who are looking to to reach out and just

1522
01:51:28,291 --> 01:51:29,625
to get more connected and learn more

1523
01:51:29,625 --> 01:51:31,916
about teaching tools and teaching

1524
01:51:31,916 --> 01:51:34,000
opportunities in material science.

1525
01:51:34,916 --> 01:51:37,458
Fantastic. So I'm not going to be at the

1526
01:51:37,458 --> 01:51:39,125
TMS meeting, but I think Tim

1527
01:51:39,125 --> 01:51:40,125
is. Are you going to be there?

1528
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:44,958
No, I'm not going to be there. I'm not

1529
01:51:44,958 --> 01:51:46,625
presenting and it's the

1530
01:51:46,625 --> 01:51:47,000
last week of the quarter.

1531
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:49,791
Yeah, I'll be there next year when they

1532
01:51:49,791 --> 01:51:52,000
move the Judson Symposium there.

1533
01:51:53,000 --> 01:51:56,166
But at any rate, I hope we're going to

1534
01:51:56,166 --> 01:51:57,583
see you this summer at

1535
01:51:57,583 --> 01:51:58,666
NAMES. Are you coming?

1536
01:52:01,291 --> 01:52:03,083
I am planning an excuse to come out to

1537
01:52:03,083 --> 01:52:05,875
Ann Arbor. I think in August

1538
01:52:05,875 --> 01:52:07,833
is free. So yeah, that's great.

1539
01:52:07,833 --> 01:52:09,500
We're working very hard to keep the

1540
01:52:09,500 --> 01:52:11,541
registration costs low. It's going to be

1541
01:52:11,541 --> 01:52:13,000
250 bucks for the early bird.

1542
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:15,750
So that should make it

1543
01:52:15,750 --> 01:52:17,250
easier for people to get here.

1544
01:52:19,375 --> 01:52:21,458
Well, great. Well, thank you so much. And

1545
01:52:21,458 --> 01:52:23,375
thank you to all of those who are

1546
01:52:23,375 --> 01:52:26,166
listening to this. And so I think with

1547
01:52:26,166 --> 01:52:28,500
that, we'll say goodbye. So thank you,

1548
01:52:28,500 --> 01:52:29,750
Susan. And talk to you later.

1549
01:52:32,333 --> 01:52:33,000
Yeah, see you next time.

1550
01:52:43,041 --> 01:52:44,541
Bye.