Trey: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and everything you need to know.
I'm Trey!
Jude: I'm Jude, and in this episode, we are going to pick up
where we left off with our part two of captain America, the winter
soldier, you know, it was super fun.
And I'm glad to jump back into this.
I think where we left off train, if I'm right, was Steve Rogers
and Natasha was discussing.
The w her experience of the winter soldier being shot and recovering
the, this movie's MacGuffin goober.
Um, that was the little USB device that that's.
Okay.
Let's be honest.
How clever was that to hide it behind a stick of gum?
Trey: Wow.
That was going to be my follow-up.
I love Steve Rogers.
He's a fantastic hero.
A personal favorite, terrible at hiding things that was so bad,
Jude: right?
Like there's an element sometimes.
Like you do hide stuff in plain sight because our last place.
But if somebody is going to go buy a pack of gum, that's got a stick out.
Trey: Oh, 100%.
I just love the idea.
Like, because, and again, I don't want to get too bogged down on it
because movies are all sometimes about to spend suspending your disbelief.
But the idea of Steve Rogers opening up the vending machine and looking both
ways, making sure nobody sees him and then like clumsily, trying to put that stick
behind all those gum and then close it before anybody sees is a really funny to
Jude: me.
No, th th no, the real question is how much does he think that was worth?
Right.
Cause you put in money and you do the little thing and you get your packet of
Bubblicious there and to get that thing to spin, to move the next one forward.
Right.
And so let's just say it's a dollar a pack.
How many slots back was it?
Was
Trey: that off the top of
Jude: my head?
I think it was four.
So, so $4 is what it was.
To Steve for shield
Trey: secrets.
Well, for Steve, it seems to run on some type of electricity.
So,
Jude: so yeah, like I just, you know, just cause I'm just imagining
like it, like my teenage self.
I see that I'm curious and I'm probably buying it until I get it.
Trey: I love the idea of somebody who's tuning in to this episode.
The first time it's like, man, these guys really hate winters.
Jude: I know right now, Teresa, at that stage though, this is trays.
Um, well, I mean, let's be honest, Kevin fight you super-fan this was,
you know, his love letter to Trey, uh, captain America, winter soldier.
Uh, no.
And I do want to say this.
It was interesting.
I remember, um, you know, we, we did start with the first pond of.
Uh, talking about our anxiety of covering this and how nervous we were.
Um, and I think having a conversation with Daniel, uh, I believe he, he
said even he was glad that we actually brought that up upfront, you know?
Um, but yeah, it's, it is Trey's favorite movie and we're on page 15
of his 30 notes, so close page 18.
And so, but this is where we are for us to structure wise, act to this scene.
And then we will finish up our thoughts on act to move into act
three, um, and then kind of wrap up.
Uh, so yeah, so Trey picking up here, where do you want to start?
Trey: I think the place that I want to start is where I left the call to action.
And last week's episode where we say.
Where we basically put down what we wanted people to zone in on.
If they went and watched the winter soldier after listening to
the first half of our commentary.
And the thing that I said is to pay attention to how much this movie is just
as much Natasha's as it is Steve Rogers.
And so I think starting here picking up where we are in the mall, where
they have gotten their USB, they're using it in the apple store and they
now have to evade the Hydra agents.
It is such a wonderful flip that.
If Natasha and Steve are opposite ends of a spectrum in a modern
world, then Natasha is someone that has completely adapted to this.
She knows how to play the game if you want to put it that way.
So, you know, something they mentioned in the, the director's commentary is how
important it was to take these established heroes and have them playing from their
back foot, which I think is the only believable way to sell like, oh, Hydra
really does have the upper hand here.
So the fact that Steve Rogers is kind of lost and it is up to Natasha to
teach him how to navigate this world, I think is such an interesting flip.
And it demonstrates a skillset that has only been talked about
with Natasha, but we get to really see it in full display here.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, you know what comes to mind?
You know, that Thor, Ragnarok, infinity Warren in game.
If you trace Hulk and banner, that was supposed to be like its own arc
and whether or not you feel like that actually happened with how that
character was treated an end game.
I don't know.
Um, you, the listener, the Royal you, you know, and Trey, uh, but actually
as you bring that up about being just as much Natasha's movie and getting to
see that you kind of get that out of this, and even looking ahead to civil
war, what the, you know, you kind of do get a arc here between those two
together in, in, you know, I, I'm not saying at all that like, oh, we didn't
need her movie because we had an arc.
If you put all these movies together, that's dumb.
I highly glad we got the black widow movie.
Um, I think it's documented on our Twitter.
I put that as the best movie are my favorite or best movie
of 2021, but I do like that.
There you do get that feeling of as much as it's captain America's movie.
There is an arc, you know, uh, which is weird because like, thinking back to where
we ended in that one scene, I was also, you know, I was the one that said it was
like, oh, I would have loved to have seen that moment where winter soldier shot her.
And that moment is about building up winter soldiers, mystique, maybe, uh, and,
and really doesn't flesh out Natasha as much because we don't see it later, but
you do get to see her shift of spy and what that was an Avengers we see are here.
And what that role is, the relationship that develops the Steve Rogers, how that
relationship gets complicated and civil war, because I'm friends with Steve
Rogers, I'm checking in with Steve, but ideologically agree with Tony.
And then I don't.
And so you actually get a nice little storyline for Natasha.
Through those two movies.
Trey: Yeah.
And, and even within this movie itself, like, think about
where we are at this point.
We have just lost Nick fury.
Uh, we talked so much about how, even though he technically got
away, he lost everything in that scene with the winter soldier.
So if, again, if everything is about putting these heroes on their back foot,
I love that line when she's has the USB in the Mac book and she's going through it.
And she's like, yeah, the person who encrypted this drive is
slightly smarter than me slightly.
Like, I like that, that feeling of like, oh, this is the start
of our path towards good.
Like we were on our way.
And they do such a great job of establishing here, especially
with the way, like, I mean, it was just the tension of the scene
of like Steve Rogers is nervous.
When does Steve Rogers get that nervous where he's constantly looking over your
shoulder and Natasha plays it cool.
While you have all the different hydrate agents coming in from the top
of the escalator to different floors.
It's just it's so,
Jude: yeah.
Well, in it again, like you said, of the tactics, uh, you know, Rogers, okay.
Standard this, you know, I don't remember the full line, but like
talking about like the formation, right?
The standard two in the front back, this is what we can do.
And she's like, just now relax, we're going to do this.
Um, you know, and it is, it's this interesting example of the, the different
sets of training, the different sets of reaction, you know, to that, to
the, that situation and the stress.
Yeah, it's I, I liked having the contrast
Trey: there and the way it leads into that moment when they're escaping in the
truck, because after we see that, okay, Natasha's kind of got the lead here.
They have a very vulnerable conversation in, and again, in that idea of they're,
they're two sides of a spectrum.
You know, Natasha has adapted to this world, but in a way that leaves
it so that she never gets to show a true side of herself because she is
always constantly changing to what it is that she needs to stay safe.
Whereas Roger's, you know, his, I mean, he is honesty.
That is what he wants to live.
That is his ideal world.
And what he expects of others is to constantly be there on itself.
So it puts us in a situation where like, okay, who is the quote unquote, right.
One.
But I think it is getting us to this point where received there's
a happy medium between them.
And I think there is a way for Natasha to be a little bit more true to herself
without sacrificing the ways that she's adapted in the skill sheets has picked
up just as much as there is a way for Steve Rogers to not be that rigid.
Always have to be honest and fit into this more modern world.
Well, and
Jude: you have that extra to two things come to mind.
So you have the interaction in the truck, right?
I love the callback to the old captain America movie with the whole,
you know, when the captain America learned to steal a truck, uh, you
know, cause they had kept Hotwire truck and the, in the older version.
Uh, and when, I mean older version, like was a seventies, eighties, the one
Trey: with the motorcycle helmet.
Yes.
Jude: Uh, I never saw that.
Yeah, neither did I.
So, um, I vaguely remember the whole look on television.
Uh, but in that scene, it's interesting because Rogers is forcing Natasha
to be Natasha put another way.
It's like, ah, I can be whoever you want me to be like, that's the fun
you, you know, or, or I, how I can protect myself from getting hurt.
And he's like forcing her into this, this authenticity, and she's forcing him into
this like tape relax God kind of thing.
Um, so I really liked that scene.
Now, the question I have, and, and again, I talked about this, it's
really weird because I, I, I do love this movie and, and listening back
to last week's pod, I was like, okay, am I coming across as, too negative?
Uh, I don't want to come across as, too negative because it's such a good movie.
People love this movie.
And so that's why I keep framing it of like, where's the evolution of my thought.
And thinking about what are the things that stood out and wondering why did it
stand at this time versus last time, the first watch when they did that scene of.
No kiss me public displays make, make people uncomfortable
is like, yes, it does.
And I wonder to what extent that was necessary.
You know what I mean?
Like in writing and making that choice, because that was like a gateway to,
Hey, I want to ask you this question.
Was that the first time was it that bad?
No.
And so you get into that really good conversation, right?
That was meaningful and good for those characters, but there was an
element of like, they're not dating.
We know they're not dating because.
But outside of Tony and pepper, maybe the only on string, Chris,
we'd seen Jane Foster and Thor off the tee Gomorrah that up to
Trey: that point, Guardian's galaxy would have been after that.
Jude: Yeah.
You know, like it, like, it made me wonder for some reason watching it this
time, you know, that popped into my head.
I was like, okay.
Was that necessary?
Did that help push the story along?
Or was it just kind of.
We have these two characters.
And so let's do that, you know, and I don't know why this time watching
it, that kind of popped in my head.
Uh, maybe, maybe, maybe because of the pod, maybe because I put myself
in such a position of thinking about the intentionality of choices
they make in the writing room, you
Trey: know?
Yeah.
Well, we've talked about it plenty of times before where the way we view things
for the podcast is not the way we view things when we view it for ourselves.
And we sometimes find ourselves into that position where we start to be like,
man, are we just being overly critical?
But I think as long as we keep a healthy lens of like trying to pick out what
it is that it's sticking out to us, I think it's, you know, it's hopefully
not too negative from the audience's perspective, but that's never our
intention, but to circle back to.
The question at hand within the movie, you know, I listen again, listening to
the director's commentary, they brought it up in that they debated that for so
long and they were very cognizant of like, they needed to have meaning in it.
Otherwise it's just like, oh, you're doing it for romantic tension sake.
And I'm cleaning it up a little bit for the podcast.
And so I get that they had the right intentions, but they end
on a plus of kiss is always fun.
And it's like one step forward and two steps back and the intentionality of it.
Right.
I think it kind of works because again, it is demonstrating that like, I mean,
that is part of Natasha skillset, right?
The, I don't think social engineering is the right term for it, but it's
kind of that, that feeling of like, okay, these, this is how people work.
This is how we're going to make them uncomfortable so that we can stay hidden.
Um, but I can understand why it's something that stands out to you as
Jude: well.
Like skillset wise, that's a hundred percent, I think,
believable in this situation.
This is what you do, cause we're going to play into, like you
said, people's uncomfortability.
Right?
And so like, it wasn't that far of a stretch to say, oh,
this was being forced into it.
Um, I just find it interesting of like my, what, the things that pop up in my head.
Um, You know, in terms of now versus then.
So yeah.
Trey: You know, moving along after that conversation that they have in the
truck, uh, we, you know, we detailed the vulnerability that it puts them in and
you, you really get, uh, an illustration of where these two characters are at
within this theme of trust and friendship that the movie is, is wrestling with man.
When they get to camp Lehigh, it is just, it is so narratively rich that
he has to go back to the place that it all started for captain America.
Like if the whole idea is divorcing Steve Rogers from just the mantle to really
be able to come back to it and wield it in a way that feels more meaningful to
him going back to that start and that being the place where we learn, Hey,
shield, isn't what we thought it was.
It is actually Hydra that has been growing under secret for so long.
It just it's, it's a great turning point for this film.
And it works in tandem.
If you go back to that scene where he's consulting with Peggy, and he's talking
about like, I don't know who I am anymore.
I don't know what it is that I stood for.
And she's like, oh, you're being dramatic.
Sometimes the only thing we can do is start over.
And it's just, it's an echo of that conversation and putting it to
practice in here and the fact that they literally have to delve deeper.
What better demonstration of the sororities story circle than getting
to the bottom of this secret vase?
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, well, two things a and the whole start over, well, let's go back and
destroyed this base and oh, by the way, we're going to take out all the shield.
Right.
We're really going down to base a to base level start over.
So yeah, like there, so you mentioned that the story circle, would you
say this is the belly of the beast?
Trey: I would think so.
Yeah, because you, I mean, if, if you start from a place, a comfortable.
Did you want something and then you go out and find it.
You find it, but it's not what you're looking for.
He found what it is that he was looking for, the people, the bliss behind
all of this, but finding out what it was, shield is the act that will
propel us through the return journey.
Having changed.
At least that is my, my read of the story circle to this particular moment.
Yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
Right.
That's cause like I'm trying to think it was like a, is it that,
is it when the elevator scene, like, and here's what I say.
The other says you need something, a little fury died.
You don't have fury.
You don't know who to trust.
You're not sure about Natasha, like, is that the moment?
Um, but I think you're right.
I think this is where it's at,
Trey: you know, and I don't think I've ever really.
Articulated how much I love that it is Hydra.
That is the culprit, because if, again, everything is operating in this
paranoia and this idea of truth and security and you know, what are you
willing to give up for protection?
The idea that it is Hydra that is coming back to be responsible for this
really illustrates the horrors of how hard it is to stop an ideology and that
some up in Hydra with the cutoff one head and two more shell tickets place.
The fact that Steve now has to wrestle with, I gave my life to this.
I thought I stopped this.
And it is back like what more than to drive our character
further into that paranoia than to realize what he gave his life for.
Actually didn't stop it.
Jude: Yeah.
Speaking of ideology, like the, the whole, you know, and when we
talked about this a little bit with fury, and I think it was Nick Sandy
that said we were kind of harsh.
Um, but I mentioned, you know, uh, Fury's ideology, isn't much different
from pierces, which is Hydra and.
You know, and there's this interesting commentary there of,
yeah, this is still here, right?
Like I've sacrificed and this ideology lives.
And that, that is the thing about ideologies, right?
Like, like those are really, really, if you find a particular ideology
that is worth dying for right.
Sacrificing yourself for the idea that like the, the ideology goes away.
Cause it's, it's not a person.
Um, there's just false.
Like, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, it makes sense that it's going
to creep back up and in some way, and to have now that manifestation
in shield, you know, and I mean, you carry it forward, right?
Like that was the reason why he did.
Want to sign their Cobia cords.
I've seen this happen twice
actually of, you know, and, and so, so yeah, I, I do
find that really fascinating.
And what would psychologically, what that might've meant for him.
And again, timing you can't explore that.
But to say, yeah, like I, you know, not only it was self sacrifice, like crap, I
had to come back, you know, to find this out and miss out on however many years.
And I'm now 90, you know, and we're still fighting the same things.
I mean, what
Trey: a heartbreak to come back and have to wrestle with.
I don't know who I am in this new world and then learn even
who I was in the old world.
Didn't matter.
Like, this is a hard
Jude: blow.
Yeah.
A really hard blow.
I mean, he handled it.
Well, of course he did.
He's captain America.
Right?
So like, like in that sense, I don't want to seem like, oh, am I
making it too big a deal about it?
You know?
But, but I, and I think, I don't think I am.
I don't think we are because that's, you know, I think the Russo brothers
are trying to, to, to trade in these big ideas, you know, and they'll
play in that space, you know?
And, and you're right.
This, this ideology that just.
For me, I don't see much different, you know?
Um, and so let me put it this way.
The, the line from Zola was hydro was found on the belief that humanity could
not be trusted with its own freedom.
Okay.
Hydro learned that humanity needed to surrender its freedom willingly.
My next out is he's not wrong.
Like that's like, he's right.
You know what I mean?
It's I mean, when you think about, and that was my call to action, it's
like, okay, when you watch this thing about some philosophical things that
came up, you know, and think about what project insight is going to do that
if you watch a documentary like that.
Well, the two that come to mind, the social dilemma and terms and conditions
may apply, you know, what are all those little fine print things that none of us.
Can we just sign away, um, for convenience, you know, and, and
what is the, the data being used for it being sold for, you know, and I
mean, the number of times where I go home to, you know, the few times
that we get to be together, right.
Next thing, you know, like my Facebook ads, if I'm looking on Facebook or
whatever is going to be local to back home where I grew up and visiting you.
And then it takes a couple of times for my phone GPS, tracker locator to re orient,
and now I'm getting local stuff again.
Uh, actually a guy I work with goes overseas a lot over the summer and,
you know, he comes back for school and he's like, I'm still getting these
ads for, you know, stuff from Europe.
And we willingly do that, you know?
And, and so in that sense, I find it fascinating that ideologically, like
hydro evolved to the point where.
The right.
Like we need to willingly give it over.
And I mean, their big misstep was that they were going to
kill everybody, you know?
Trey: Yeah.
I'm gonna respond to that, but I want to pivot to a scene that's still within act
two, but I think it's a little bit more relevant to what we're talking about.
And that is after they have captured Jasper well, and he
is laying out the exposition of what it is Hydrus plan truly is.
And to circle back to what you were talking about, as far as
the algorithm goes and those documentaries that you were mentioning.
At least from my understanding of how algorithms work, because
everybody's always like, oh, our phones are listening to us.
That's how they know to service this ad or that ad.
But the more horrifying thing is they don't need to listen.
Like they can base off GPS, the proximity of other phones
that you're connected with.
It makes these educated guesses based on the behaviors that you
have inputted into the device.
And that is not any different than what Jasper Sitwell says is
the plan with project insight.
It was a book that they were reading to target people that
they perceived as threats.
And if we're on that limb of power, thoughts have changed upon just when
we watch this, it is kind of even more horrifying to me that I think there is a
broader understanding of how this works, but I don't think people have the same
fear that is depicted in this scene in 2014 that we thought it would have had.
Jude: Not at all because we have willingly gave it up well, and that's,
that's why I say the, the, the big mistake hydro was, was like, oh,
we're just going to go, you know, put these guns in the air and shoot you.
It was like, no, no.
Like the, the amount of information you have, you know, when you think about the
ability to misinform and cater, what gets in front of people's faces and those types
of things like, and you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if the Russo brothers
and the writers were aware of this, but, you know, you need your big action
sequence and you're not going to be like, oh man, they're going to manipulate us.
I will blow up their building.
You know, like, no, that doesn't work.
No you're going to, you know what I mean?
Uh, so I wonder how much actually, they were aware of this in terms of.
In the writing.
Cause that's, it's scary.
It's very scary.
You've convinced me.
This was going to be my last episode.
I'm going to go off the grill yesterday.
Well, it needs to be done by yesterday.
It might take me, you know, 24 times.
However many days they get to the end of the school year, that many
hours, if I'm a Nick fury, it, I got to subtract at least half that time.
Cause that's a reasonable thing to do.
Trey: And you questioned why Nick Sandy thought we were being harsh.
And for the record, who does, he don't know?
Nick Sandy texted in just telling me like man y'all to her and the treads.
Listen, I didn't realize it was going to be two parts of the time.
So I promise I'm going to do my best to repair the image that I have
left after the last week's episode.
Yes.
But you know, I, you, you brought up.
What was on the director's mind again, not to keep beating this drum, but it's one
of the first times I was listened to the director's commentary for a movie that is
something that they were talking about.
That even though it is a superhero film and you can only go so far,
it was something that they were keeping in mind because that's how
they wanted to differentiate it.
They wanted to imbue these real world ideas that they
had into this superhero film.
And, you know, I've talked about it before.
That's the thing that I love about.
Uh, comic book movies is that it is dealing in extremes.
Uh, although the scary part is how less and less, it seems like it's becoming
extreme, but for the most part, they are dealing in taking things to the absolute,
maximum potential of what that fear is.
So that's, what's, that's the superhero language.
Um, but circling back to the moment and captain Lehigh, where they're discussing
with Zola, one of the things that, that commentary ended up informing me about
that scene in a way that I haven't thought about it before is so often
throughout, even past the MCU, but throughout all captain America stories,
he is brought back to comment at the times at hand, and this was their chance
to really have captain America make a stance of where we were heading with
social media and these algorithms and the security that we are striving for in.
In and what we're giving up to get to that point.
So this was their, their way of dealing with that.
And what makes Zola so brilliant in that scene is how he is able to dump all of
that information onto us, because it's a huge amount of information that they're
giving to us in a moment, but dump it in a way that doesn't break the realism of
the film, because we were playing by the.
Uh, the, what we've already bought into in the superhero world.
Like it's not that big of a stretch to have somebody implant their mind into a
computer and to have that bridge of the past with technology being the thing to
break the news for Steve Rogers is again, what continues to make this so brilliant.
Jude: Steve Rogers is the ultimate get off my lawn guy.
Sorry.
Oh man.
Trey: Yeah.
I don't think we need to go further.
I think you just unpacked it all.
That's what Steve Rogers is.
Get off my lawn.
Jude: Nick's Sandy, uh, you know, you're right.
Like there is that interesting dynamic of tech and Rogers, you know, and, and
you made, you made the joke earlier about, you know, it seems to be working
on some kind of electricity, you know, and, uh, in the seventies catching up
online, but like I don't and until, you know, hear you speak about it and think
about where we're at with social media.
If you think about when he went into the ice and where we're at technologically,
like the gradual advances that in my lifetime, I got to experience that he
had a rush coming out to them, like, so, so think about this, this way.
The movie was made in 20 14, 14, and he makes the comment, the internet.
Oh, so helpful.
The internet in 2014 is unbelievably different than the internet
in the mid to late nineties.
When I was in.
Or early two thousands in college, you know what I mean?
And like that rush and that level of technology, you know, I, I,
yeah, I would definitely see him and just be like, get off my lawn.
Like, this is not how we do things, you know, this isn't
Trey: it.
Well, if it makes it to put it into context, I was, I
was Googling this in 2014.
There is no Tik TOK.
Instagram has only been around for four years.
And if you think about how gradually Instagram has changed
in features just within the last year, four years is an eternity.
And I wanted a Google, some more examples, but you're right.
I mean, the, the way that the internet is constantly evolving, you know,
I've mentioned this book before on the podcast and I've yet to finish it, but
I need to, uh, it was a book called, uh, present shock, and essentially dealing
with how us today are dealing with the immediacy of just constantly being.
In tune with everything and everyone and news all the time and
how that has just changed the way that we think as a, as a species.
I can't imagine what that is like for Steve Rogers who woke up in this and is
already having to deal with the present shock on top of the present shock that
modern people are dealing with as well.
Yeah,
Jude: it's insane.
So I want to change gears just a little bit, but I'm
not ready to leave this scene.
Uh, and again, it, for me, it is that I don't, I don't know why I found
myself in this space of like, oh, this time, what popped up and what I didn't
last time for me, I thought this scene with Zola would brought up a really
interesting philosophical question.
Uh, I kind of laugh because I feel like it's silly now.
Um, but this whole idea of personal identity and the body and the
mind, I mean, Zola downloaded his mind or himself to a computer.
Okay.
Technically speaking, that's probably slower than my iPhone.
Um, when you look at what's in the room, um, just, just saying, you know,
light, like technically speaking, like Siri could probably take you,
but, but it does bring up to me.
It was interesting philosophical thing of like, okay, wait a minute.
What is the MCU?
And I don't know.
And from the, from the, from the director's commentary, I don't think
they were trying to do this, but this is just the way I think about
things and things that interest me.
What is the MCU trying to say about who we are and what it means, um, to, to be us in
this mind, body problem, you know, cause here you're clearly like they want you to
say this is Zola, this isn't, you know, I, I'm not talking to a computer that is.
Plugged into a wall that has electricity running to it.
That's running an algorithm that is making guesses as to what Zola
would think and say, based off of downloaded past memories and content,
you know what I mean for content, for lack of a better term, they want you
to think that this is Zola, right?
Because what Zola did was a conscious choice.
I'm stalling, I'm, you know, the, the missile coming at them, you know, to the
idea to think I'm going to stall you.
So the missile can come and I can launch the missile, um,
alert Hydra to, to be here.
Like that is all creative, active thought, if that makes sense.
Um, and maybe, you know, people are gonna disagree with me.
That's fine.
But what I mean by this creative, actual thought is, you know,
otherwise it's an algorithm.
That's making these assumptions based off of this content or data
that was downloaded from the person Arnold, you know, um, Armand Zola.
And so I just found that fascinating here, the com the, the commentary
it was making, you know, especially cause like the general line is
what we don't get into any kind of spiritual or mystical stuff till Dr.
Strange.
And you have those really cool scenes where, you know, um, and we've
seen it in multiple movies now, you know, thinking, um, in game in Dr.
Strange where it was like Dr.
Strange gets pushed out of his body and there's clearly a separation.
Well, like with the first instance we get of that actually is right here.
Well, we can actually go all the way back to Jarvis and what is Jarvis,
but it's just fascinating to me of like, of like, what is that?
W what are they, you know, what is that idea?
What are they putting out?
You know, are we more body than mind?
Are we more mind than body?
Is, is it, well, I would argue that the, for the MCU, it is not a, I don't
know the right word I'm looking for, but it's, it's not a combining of the two.
They can clearly be separated.
Um, and that was something that I just, this time around, I was like, oh, I
just, I got just, you know, just sucked down that hole of like, oh, I gotta,
you know, this is fascinating to me.
Um, so yeah, so like, that was.
I don't know why, like that was, that was something that, that, and we, and we've
dealt with this as he people, you know, we have that, we've had the movie avatar
we've had, we've had the matrix, right.
We've had the matrix come back again and resurrect.
Cause that was a good idea.
Um, you know, we had the previous movie with Keanu Reeves before the
matrix that made people actually back in 99, people don't remember,
there was nervous about a great, another Keanu Reeves computer movie.
Uh, cause he was in Johnny mnemonic where the whole idea was like, I'm going to
race the mind and it's like a hard drive.
Right?
Um, Kind of thing.
And there was a John Cusack movie.
I don't remember the name of it where he put his memories into
a computer so we can live on.
So like we've dealt with this a lot, you know, and like, as humanity,
we're, we're curious about this.
Um, and, and so like, I don't know why, and that just stuck out to
me this time of winter soldier of just like, oh, like, what is that
interaction happening right here?
And what, what is the MCU saying about us and people, uh, saying that that
is, you know, acknowledging that that's
Trey: possible.
It's not a lens that I had brought to this scene, but hearing you talk about it
just makes me want to pair it with, again, with that Jasper Sitwell scene, where he's
explaining what it is they are intending to do with the algorithm and making
these educated guesses and the basis for why they think they can do this is how.
Willingly people put up that information to be read like a book again, if superhero
movies are dealing in extremes, Zola has literally put his life into a computer,
which is the exact same argument that Hydro's making about what we do in
our relationship with the internet.
And so it's like, it makes me want to rewatch it now that you have
provoked this thought because yeah, I think that's a very interesting
thing to, uh, to observe like,
Jude: I mean, oh my gosh, this right.
You're treading the line of, and um, and I know this has been
kind of a running gag, right.
Where I poke at you and I'm not trying to do that here.
Like this is you're, you're running the line now of like, what is real and
what are the possibilities, you know?
And, and you've established that no, we can separate the two in this universe
and, you know, clearly have a thinking conscience, if that makes sense.
Um, So we have the lookout, Tony Stark's coming back, download a conscience.
I don't know.
Trey: Well, if we leave the writing up to people in the sub Reddits, I think he'll
be back sooner than we think I've seen so many fan theories about that happening.
Jude: I do not want him back.
I want to say that.
Oh,
Trey: I'm so glad we got that on the record.
Jude: Hey, I want his death to mean something, you know, and, uh, okay.
Ironheart if he comes back with a little, you know, his voice
for the, for the, you know, the Jarvis voice, that would be neat.
And I think mentally I can make the separation of like,
that's not stark, you know?
And that would be a really cool role to keep him involved in that sense.
But beyond that, no, don't, we, you know, let's move.
Trey: Let them rest.
Yeah.
Well, moving back to the winter soldier, uh, I'm gonna move us along to, I think
one of the most important scenes here, and that is after Steve and Natasha
have escaped camp Lehigh, uh, they are looking for a place to shelter and it
is the one and only Sam Wilson, who we talked about last week was established
as somebody that could be trusted.
You know, as important as Sam is to this moment, the place I want to stop
first is that conversation between Steve and Natasha and the reason why
is we already talked about it a bit with the conversation and the truck.
Uh, for me, this conversation is the inverse of that moment.
Um, we have gotten to the point of the film where everything
Steve thought he knew was a lie.
And at this point it should be his world is flipped upside down.
He should be at wit's end.
Natasha points out.
You seem pretty chipper for somebody who just found out everything is
fake and he has the line, I guess.
I just like to know who I'm fighting.
If that is not like a fantastic Steve Rogers moment, I don't know what it is.
And the thing that makes it beautiful is that, whereas in that
truck scene, Natasha, that was the one that was cool and collected.
It is now here, Steve having to mentor her through this realization of, I
thought I was operating under the orders of somebody I could trust.
And now I no longer can.
What does that say about me when I thought I was giving my life for something good.
And so it just, it feels like a beautiful inverse in closing what
it is we started after they, they started escaping from the hospital.
Yeah,
Jude: no, you're right.
Like, I don't know.
Hmm.
I don't know if I ever saw it that way.
I, and as a, as an inverse, um, like my, my impression of that scene is, is.
Natasha realizing, you know, like we we've seen her throughout this film
and some of these conversations being guarded in and seeing her open up here
and realize like, here's the things I did care about and mean something to me.
And now that is gone.
Um, but the idea that it's an inverse of what we see from Steve, I
didn't, it didn't click, uh, for me.
Uh, so that's, yeah, that's fantastic.
Um, and I love the answer of, of Rogers, of like, I just want to know who to
fight, um, you know, which is w which I think shows kind of that I just, for
fun, I want it, cause I want to say it, it shows that you get off my lawn.
Um, and what I mean by that is like it oversimplifies.
The past to say this, but, but, but I think we, we, we look at the past
sometimes in this light, uh, fairly or unfairly, but this idea of like, oh,
back when you know, Steve was going on world war two, and this, it was so clear
cut, and you knew who you were fighting and this was good and this is bad.
And now everything's so jumbled, you know?
And so it is one of those like, like almost in that line, there's
also like, it just, you know, I just want things to be simple.
Again, I, it just tell me who to fight, you know?
Uh, because you had a face, you had a name, you had something tangible.
Um, now I realized that is oversimplifying.
What, what it was like to live during that time.
You know what I mean?
But like, that's kinda what I got out of that line to say, I just, I just need to
know who to punch and not in a sense of like, oh, just the Hawkeye, I'm a weapon
point me or this like brainless meat head.
Just tell me who to punch.
But like, like, it was almost just this sign of a frustration, you
know, uh, the side of frustration and being exhausted and that comment.
Trey: Yeah.
You're doing this like intentionally, but I think there is when you're talking
about like, oh, just tell me who to punch.
Like, I feel like a little bit reductive of the moment because the line is,
I just like to know who to fight.
I think the thing that's missing from that line is it's
almost like what to fight for.
Like, this is the ideal I have.
Now.
This is something concrete.
There is no obfuscation.
I can play to the values that I have set.
And it's clear to me now.
Um, and that's what that line speaks out to me.
It's not, not so much just like, oh great.
I know, I know who to beat up.
Now.
It is.
I have a clearer understanding of, of the values that I want to
adhere to and how to apply it to this world that I find myself in.
Yeah.
Jude: Yeah, no, I think you probably put it in a better way than I did.
Trey: We established last episode, I'm all for that male beating the chest bravado.
Cause I did love that scene where he said, I thought you were more
than a shield and he owned up to the
Jude: challenges.
Yeah.
Well, and again, I wasn't trying to come across that, but I was just, again,
we've, we've tried it, we've talked about, and we keep going back to this,
like, man, what was it like to win?
And again, that just shows how into the movie we are that we're thinking
in these terms, I'm like, man, what was it like to be thrust into this?
And you were in ice and all of that, you know, to be thinking of that.
And so like being in that head space, I think is part of where
I'm looking at of just like, just please tell me who to fight.
Like, you know what I mean?
Cause it's like, um, so yeah, so it's not that I was trying to be reductive.
It w it was just this kind of like, like, okay, just tell me what to do.
Uh, this is my skillset.
Let me go use it, you know?
Um, So I feel like it was a moment of frustration, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Trey: You know, I, one of the things I highlighted coming into this scene
was the importance of Sam and a minute try and thread this carefully because
I don't want it to be like, oh, you know, carrot, Sam's not his own
character because he definitely is.
But if we are going through this moment with Steve of re establishing
who it is and how he wants to use that mantle, I mean, it is what I've
talked about is that inspiration to others to do the right thing.
And we just talked about what that is for, for Natasha, as he's
helping her see, like, Hey, maybe there is times where you can, can.
Be true to who you are without feeling like you have to
deceive to fit into this world.
And on that same token, I mean, he doesn't even have to
go through that transformation because this is just who he is.
Sam is willing to go and fight alongside captain America because it
is aligned with his ideals as well.
And I like the speed at which he's like, oh yeah, you know, I was, I was out of
this, but captain America needs my help.
Of course, I'm going to jump back in.
And so I think this moment it starts to reclaim the light or the beacon of
hope that I think the, the, the shield mantle becomes in wanting to inspire
other people to do the right thing.
Jude: That beacon of hope line, you just said line, that's not like, as if
it's scripted, like the beacon of hope.
Trey: Have you seen my notes?
Jude: There's 30 pages.
Uh, so I, I do, I like that, that, that beacon of.
You know, cause there isn't that moment of like, no you got
out, I can't ask you to do this.
And he's like, look, when captain America is asking me, it is so weird.
Like I can read that scene, very cynically if I wanted to in different stuff.
But like I think what it shows about Sam's characters is his, and we see
this throughout Sam, if you decide to track him or just watch Falcon in
the winter soldier, but he has such a strong sense of duty and obligation
and that sense of doing what's right.
That it's like when, when he says that and sees this in captain America, like
Kevin American needs my help, you know?
And so I am obligated.
I have a duty to render that assistance because I'm capable, you know?
And so I love the, you know, it's not just a corny line, you know, it, it
truly gives an insight into, to Sam's character and that character like,
like virtue, like his character virtue.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
And think about what we established in the first part of our commentary at
the, in the beginning, when they first meet, there is genuine connection that
they have found between each other.
And it just because of the, the shared experiences, but also the
honesty with between each other.
And if you fast forward a little bit to the line where Steve tells
Nick fury, you know, soldiers trust each other, that's what makes it
an army that this is that payoff.
This is their quote unquote small army, but it is because now they trust each
other and they can work together in tandem because there is Goodwill bought
between servicing those friendships.
Jude: Yeah.
And notice like there is a buildup to right.
You know it okay.
Bishop.
Okay.
Um, well it just, what my thought was, there was a buildup of when
Sam joins and there's this trust he's not thrown into the big, final.
Right.
Do you have him work with the capturing the Senator?
You have Jasper said, well, uh, yeah, sit well, I'm sorry that the senior
center, but capturing Jasper sit well, like, and then the car chase scene and
then like, so he has a gradual build up until the final action sequence.
We don't just, he's just not jumped right into it.
Um, and again, my, my critique of, of the Hawkeye, that last scene where Kate
fought you, be careful here, big, bad.
I'll put it that way just in case, um, where I, it felt like too much
too quick, you know, in that gradual leveling up of what we've seen her do.
Um, whereas here, there, there is that trust, but.
We're still movie.
Right.
And there is, okay.
You know, let's integrate Sam into this team and it's not just okay.
Go and do task now.
You know what I mean?
Um, and so that, that is something I do appreciate this.
Uh, oh.
And maybe it's just so well paced, uh, again, it's the Russo brothers like that
shouldn't be a surprise that it was all
Trey: based on.
It's hard to believe this is their first film in the MCU, like, right.
It's just so good.
Jude: Right off.
I read, I read something recently that they almost quit during civil
war because of creative differences and like imagining what that would be.
Differently.
I it's a horror story.
If there is a multi, if there's a, multi-verse where
that happens, I'm Khaled.
I'm not, oh man.
Trey: Well, you know, you, you alluded to it a little bit, but I think the
last remaining thing we really need to talk about here in this act,
two section is the highway scene.
Uh, so to set the stage, this is the moment after they had
gotten Jasper Sitwell to talk.
Uh, they are driving down the highway and the winter soldier, intervenes and
murders, Jasper Sitwell, which kicks off a series of events that concludes
with Steve Natasha and Sam being apprehended by Hydra slash shield agents.
You know, I already talked a little bit about it, how it's
it's, you know, the beacon of hope.
This is the reclaiming of that mantle.
Um, this really feels like our team firing on all cylinders together
and having found a way to do it.
That is not relying on the compartmentalization that Nick
fury was, uh, putting forth at the beginning of the movie.
This, this is founded truly on trust and I like how it stretches the.
Limits of trust by splitting these people up, like you have them together.
And then eventually Natasha gets on the run.
Steve gets taken out through the bus and Sam is left up alone
providing cover on the top.
But because this team has jelled, they are able to fight through this
scene together and make it out.
Um, almost in one piece, the, there there's some, some wounds here and
there, but it's just, it's narratively working on a great level for me.
And I mean, what, what better test for this team than the winter soldier himself?
And again, if so much of this movie is Steve figuring out who he is, the test
that they give him to bring back his past and this form of, of Bucky, which
he doesn't know it at this point quite yet, but we, uh, and subsequent views.
It's just it's the past is literally coming back to fight him.
And if the question for him is can he save the ideals of his
past in this modern setting?
That is the problem of Bucky.
In a nutshell,
Jude: can you save the past in this modern setting?
And that's the problem of Bucky in a nutshell, man, last part I was, I
was a set of jokingly, but I could just sit here and listen to you.
Um, I'm really, really good.
Trey: Thank you.
And, you know, just to hammer it home a little bit more, I mean, the reason that I
got to that level of thinking is something my dad has always taught me and I'm sure
he's picked it from somewhere else, but.
You want to have a surefire way of demonstrating.
You've learned something, you teach it.
And so the idea of Steve having learned the, this journey that he's
been on up to this point and now is being tasked with, can I save Bucky?
Can I teach him the things that I have learned up to this point?
I think it just makes it such a dramatically rich, um, section that we're
dealing with in, and you see it in the way that the fights are taking place.
Um, because I mentioned in last week's first part of captain America stories,
working at their highest potential, whenever they're treating the shield
as its own character, the first time they had their confrontation, Bucky
catches the shield and throws it back because Steve wasn't ready for it.
Now that shield is switching places back and forth between Steve and Bucky.
And it doesn't matter because it is Steve, who is sure of what his ideals are.
And I think he has more than.
Equipped to handle this until the revelation of, oh, this is Bucky.
Jude: Well, it's interesting.
Cause we we've talked about this in terms of violence, right.
And the, the, the beginning of the aluminum's Le Marion star, is that right?
Yeah.
The century Nova prime guardians of galaxy anyways.
Um, but like, no, we talked about the violence and like the, the
why that scene is forgiving.
Why did we see the opening scene of falconer, winter soldier differently?
Are you facing somebody faceless and nameless?
And here, this is the moment where.
Like you're faced with Bucky, you know, like it, like, it has
a face, the enemy now has a face and, or let's put it this way.
Cap got what he wanted.
I know who to fight the winter soldier.
Damn.
It's my best friend.
Like
And so and so in, in that sense and in that, and that reveal, you know, it's
that I find fascinating, you know, like it's a simplicity, I know who
to fight now, but oh, this is there.
Um, now I love the sequence and the way they got to that point, you know?
Cause it was so again, the brilliance of the Russo brothers with the close
camera, that in tight, you know, quick actions, um, it just felt
so personal, if that makes sense.
And then when you had that reveal.
And in Rogers realizes who he was going so hard against, you know,
that I think, I think that's the other thing that made that moment.
So impactful is how they, the physical confrontation that,
that in combination is putting it very mildly of their fight there.
You know, I mean, he, they were going down the highway, like probably I'm
guessing Saudi miles an hour in theory.
Um, and winter soldier just like rips the guy out of the car
Trey: instead of been wearing a seatbelt.
Jude: Hey, safety.
Um, you know, our grandmother used to not wear her seatbelt right now.
I know.
Trey: Oh, I thought you meant even older than that.
I didn't know that.
Oh my
Jude: gosh.
No.
Yeah, she didn't because it would wrinkle her clothes.
We're talking about a woman who ironed her money because she wanted it to be crisp.
Okay.
Yeah.
So you
Trey: have to do that for our Christmas
Jude: anyways.
Trey: Not the seatbelt part that was bad.
I didn't know about that, but the money our
Jude: was great.
Um, like in other words, it's it was, it was a really, you know, intense
battle and fight that, that in that moment, really, I think showed Rogers
what was at stake maybe beyond just, oh, I gotta take this, this thing down.
Yeah.
And
Trey: the secrets of, again, you know, I, I alluded to it a little
bit, but the sequencing of it is.
Great.
And that it separates Steve from Bucky.
Um, we have, and I'll go and say it cause I wanted to highlight some of my
favorite parts of this sequence itself.
And I think it is the Natasha part of it.
She is going head to head with a winter soldier without any help.
And I mean, she's holding her own, like I will never not love that scene where
she jumps off the highway, uses the grappling hook to swing over running full
speed that notices the, the shadow of the winter soldier and the, the action stops.
And it's kind of like half a beat of silence.
And then you see the shot on the winter soldiers glasses, because
Natasha had like, outwitted him in the positioning of herself where she just
slowly walks out and shoots upwards.
Like it is, it is so cool.
Like on top of everything that is happening narratively, it's
just really, really cool and
Jude: thrilling.
Yeah.
You know what I noticed that I'd never noticed before was that the.
Grappling hook thing that like widow used in Tasha to do her little, like acrobatic
thing was the same device Yulaina used when, when she was like, oh, this is fun.
And then like goes and jumped out the window and okay.
That's awesome.
Like, I never noticed it before until this, um, like I, well, like after
seeing Hawkeye and going back, like, I didn't notice it during Hawkeye.
And I think that that was to me really.
I dunno why they just didn't touch that.
I love that consistency.
Yeah.
The other thing that I think they did really well with this sequence
was it came out of nowhere.
You know what I mean?
Like in the elevator we talked about it.
Like we all knew it was coming, you know, cap was looking for a fight and
wanted to beat up on some people in he's like, Hey, who wants to get out?
Like, we all knew it was coming.
Um, even with the Nick fury thing, you knew it was.
Right.
It was just like, you had that tension the way they built it, you know, and,
and the police cars surrounding them.
This one, it was like, they're driving down the highway.
And all of a sudden it was just like all hell broke loose.
And, and, and because they did it that way, I think this whole
sequence made it even that much more.
Trey: I mean, it's, it's hard to get more jarring than going down the highway and
having the door ripped out from the side.
Right.
And I mean, and it was an intentional choice.
Like they wanted the winter soldier to be an unstoppable force.
Like they are the incarnation of death.
And I mean, they do a wonderful job of, of creating that
here in this action sequence.
Oh, Well, I think that's going to wrap up act two, and we're going to go ahead and
move into the final act of this movie.
Uh, this is going to take us from the moment that Maria Hill breaks
out Sam, Steve, and Natasha, uh, through to the end of the movie.
So starting with you this time, uh, where would you like to start with enact three?
Jude: I want to start here.
Cause again, we got act three Maria Hill, like you said, breaking them out.
I'll be honest.
First watch.
I did not see that coming.
So that was a really cool surprise and moment, you know,
thinking back to the first watch.
I didn't, I didn't see that coming.
Um, you know, you have the, the moment I I'm going to say this broadly.
One of the things I really appreciate about this movie and
it's a criticism we've had at the Disney plus shows, which is having.
The final action set piece that we know these movies have in a Disney
plus shows for some of them, it felt like, okay, we have to have this
because we have to, you know, um, where this didn't feel that way, right?
Like, like in any movie, you know, it's coming, but you know, they do it well
when it gets there and it feels natural.
It doesn't feel like obligatory.
And this definitely didn't feel that way.
Like it's you still felt the stakes of what's going on.
You still felt, man.
How is basically the three of them?
Maria Hill, sorry, the four of them.
Cause you know, fury was useless at this point.
Um, I said that just for the Sandy, uh, Well, you know what I mean?
Like, like going up against all of shield.
Um, and so you did have this sense of going in of like, okay,
I know this is going to happen.
I know it's going to be successful.
Cause I had, I'm familiar with movies when they did such a good job of, of, of like,
how are they going to get out of this?
And that's what you want from these movies.
We know
Trey: more often than not the, and the protagonists are gonna win.
Like that is just the structure of the movies that we are used to,
but good writing is being able to make you believe they can fail.
And so I see what you mean.
Like it is, it is insurmountable odds that they have to go up through
the entirety of shield to be able to, uh, you know, accomplish the
goals that they have set forth.
So, you know, there, there's a couple places I want to go to, but I'm going
to start here because I do think there is some work on our part with,
with Nick fury, at least for me, uh, we did get called out by Nick, Sandy
about being a little too harsh on him.
Uh, you know, you brought up the idea of, of how much has he really
changed if he was still wanting to salvage shield here at the end.
And I think one of the things that I wanted to kind of reset here is you
mentioned the line security through might.
That was the ideology.
I think that Alexander Pierce had, and it is the same ideology
that we compared to Nick fury.
And I think one of the things that I wanted to set up, uh, back then that
I didn't get a chance to until now is.
Yes, they are two sides of the same coin.
They both share this idea of, I can't trust you with your own safety.
So only I have the power to do this, to do what's right.
The thing that I think separates them is whenever you hear Alexander
Pierce really talk about it is about what they want to do.
It's coming from this place of wanting to have offensive force.
Like they will be ready to attack.
They will never be from behind.
Whereas with Nick fury, it is this feeling of wanting to protect it's
misguided it's wrong, but ultimately it is wanting to defend people.
Um, so I think that that's a very important distinguishing factor
between them because it gets you to this point where you're right.
It is not great that Nick fury was wanting to salvage sealed, but I think it also.
Is showing the Baton pass, come to fruition in that it is Steve's decision
of no, you gave me this mission.
It all goes.
And I think that is evidence of.
Again, to use this phrase, beacon of hope.
That is Steve Rogers and captain America, the character and the
learning process for Nick fury.
Um, and I think if it would have been like an immediate switch on Nick
Fury's part, I think that would be a little bit more disingenuous because
I go back to what I said last week, whenever you're dealing with extremes
for so long to justify the ends, the extreme stop being surprising to you.
And it's going to take time, I think for Nick fury to walk back
from that path, but the fact that he can recognize the error of it, I
think speaks volumes of who he is.
And I think, again, it is the strength of captain America, that it
is compassion to the person that is what brings them back to the light.
Jude: And you say that, I don't know if we know that Fury's learned his lesson.
Um, and let's hope well, and, and, and, and I'm saying that genuinely,
because at the end of far from home, making sure we're clear that I'm talking
about far from home, not no way home, far from home, it gets real confusing.
It does.
Um, but the end of that, the intact, we see Nick fury in space.
We're assuming at that point it's sword, I'm hoping it's sword.
Cause I don't want this sword treatment to be just what we got in one division.
Uh, cause that would be problematic, but if it is sword and they take
some kind of, and you start to see this trend of some kind of line of
like, that's what he's doing was sword a similar thing was shield.
I don't think we can say that you've learned your lesson yet.
You just traded one agency for another word.
Um, yeah, so, so, and that's going to be upon.
I think Sam Jackson, as a, as an actor and caretaker of fury and
FYGI and any of those writers to be aware of that, if that makes sense.
So, so like, so like clearly in this movie, I think we can say he had
to be taught a lesson cause he's like, we're going to salvage it.
And not only did he, but even Maria Hill was like, no, this
has got to go capture it.
Um, and, but I do wonder to what extent I hope they don't, they undo that
a little bit with sword, you know?
And, and if they do, I hope it's done because I think it
can be done if they do it.
Right.
You know, but just to automatically like go back to square one, you
know, that, that doesn't work.
Trey: You know, we talked about this a little bit.
Whenever we covered Hawkeye.
Asking the question, did they write themselves into a corner with having
the baggage of Ronan and how they wanted to handle it within that series?
It feels like this is another moment where they have written
themselves into a corner.
And I think it is a bit of a by-product of it's been over 10 years, like at a certain
point, some things are going to get strained or tested just because I don't
think anybody has that level of foresight to write that tightly of a narrative.
But it is when you zoom out and see where these characters are.
Now, while we talk about this movie, then it is a little dubious that he
went from one organization to the next, assuming that that's what he's doing at
the end credit scene of far from home.
Uh, because all we saw was him in space with different scrolls.
And I think we kind of got the illusion at the end of one division, like Rambo
was going to meet with Nick fury.
So yeah, I think, I think that's me clumsily trying to hold onto my point,
but I think you're right there, there is some jury left to, uh, Nick Fury's defense
and I hope they don't, they don't take
Jude: away from it here.
Right.
And I'm not trying to be overly harsh, but like, like there's an in that car,
that's what makes it so difficult to do.
Some of these reviews is, you know, we're looking at this movie, but
we know that that story carries on.
It's not like we're doing Chong Xi in, oh, what's going to happen next.
And I hope they do that.
We know what they are going to do next.
Like, we we've seen this and we've seen the direction it's going and you
don't, we love these characters and you don't want, you want to see the
growth, not a backtrack in retread.
Um, if you know, if that makes sense.
So.
So, yeah, so like I I'm with you on here.
Like he, to me, like he learned his lesson, um, you know, in that,
in that kind of, that endorsement of what caps gonna do, you know?
Um, it's okay.
So, so let me, let me jump back into there because I want to explore this a
little bit more, and I think about the hero's journey and the story circle.
If fury is playing the role of the mentor, right?
Like typically the mentor passes on, I mentioned some kind of talisman,
some kind of object to our hero.
That's on this journey, the hero goes to the belly of the beast.
It has to return and show that they have learned and incorporated the mentor's
lessons, um, and utilize it and bring it back in a weird way because of
the way it started with the mistrust.
Fury is a mentor, but he's not, you know what I mean?
He's definitely the mentor ish person that sends them on this quest.
But you have this question, can I trust them or not?
And here though, the lesson learned that he brings back is one that has
to, as you said, be taught to Mick himself, the mentor himself, you
know, and he says, well, I guess you're calling the shots now cap.
Um, so that I do find interesting in that, in that
Trey: dynamic.
And I wonder if that's what works on a subconscious level for this movie and
that we're so used to that archetype that you've laid out is the story circle.
That's a mentor passes on the knowledge to the protagonists.
Mentor dies.
Protagonists takes that knowledge returned.
Having changed, not to go back down that road, but I wonder if on a subconscious
level, what makes the surprise of Nick fury actually being alive succeed
and not just be like, oh, okay.
You know, no one ever dies in the Marvel cinematic universe is the, the revelation.
No, the mentor needed to learn as well.
And that is what makes it prominent that he's back.
And he's like, all right, we're going to continue where we left off.
And Steve's like, no, you gave me this.
This is what you have learned and what, this is what I've learned and what I
am here to teach you now kind of thing.
So almost kind of an inversion of the archetype.
Jude: Yeah.
I get excited.
This is fun stuff for me to talk about, like the story circle and
the archetypes and, and where we see those connections and where
those little variations come from.
Uh, because if you don't have those variations, the variations
are part of what gives us this originality, uh, variations of.
A part of, I think in representation.
Um, you know, and, and so seeing these variations gets me excited
and, you know, cause, cause we could, you make those small changes, but
it feels small, but they're going to be significant to somebody else.
Cause they see it through their own lens.
And so I just, and so like none of that has to do with winter
soldier, but like use what you said, like that's where it all I guess.
And so, yeah.
So, okay.
So yeah.
Trey: Well I find it interesting.
I mean it is.
I'll just say it, you were right.
This definitely needed to be two parts because I don't think we would
have the, the runway to be able to dig into these things that we
clearly have a lot to talk about.
Jude: Yeah.
I just, I met her.
I was like,
Trey: all right, well, if that's staying in moving along, uh, you know,
one of the things I want to circle back on, uh, before we get to the
pretty much the, the climax of this film is we get that flashback where
we see how much Steve and Bucky were intertwined in their early lives.
Uh, and they do it in small ways and that, and showing that Bucky was there
for the death of Steve's parents and how Bucky's able to figure out where
the hidden key is a lot of great stuff.
But the thing that stuck out to me this time, especially sitting
down to take notes is if the.
Lesson that Steve Rogers is now broadcasting here at this part of the film
is that trust and friendship, it makes it heartbreaking to go back all the way
to that moment and realize it is Bucky, who is the one that had instilled it in
him, because that is where we get the line I'm with you to the end of the line pal.
And so not only does it work to, to really hurt whenever we're seeing
them fight towards the end of the movie, but it, it shows where
that ingrained value came from.
And the thing that I want to highlight as well before I throw it back to you
is again, we talked about it a little bit before we started recording about
how Sam doesn't really get a lot until Falcon and the winter soldier,
but he makes the most of what it is.
He has this moment after the flashback scene, where Steve is
kind of standing out on that dam, I think, and, and Sam comes up to him.
Sam is iterating.
Bucky's not the kind of person you save.
He's the kind of person you put down.
And I think there's many reasons why that is a wonderful here in this movie,
but I want to highlight the growth that Sam has from this moment where
he honestly believes this to where he ends up in the Falcon and the winter
soldier, where he is adamant about putting Carly down is not the answer.
Like I think that shows growth on his part that is, uh, worth mentioning here.
It's, it's a bit of an echo where we can see that he learned it is possible
to play towards the person and settling it in peaceful conflicts rather than
just trying to push her way through, uh, with Steve Rogers in this moment.
Jude: Yeah.
I love that connection because that is a very powerful line.
I mean, the language, this is the person you put down.
You know, it's very, it's not, this is the person type of person you killed.
This is not, this is your enemy.
Like put down, has that language of dehumanizing, you know, it's like,
it's like, what you do is a rabid animal or so to speak, you know?
Um, so yeah, and then to, to go that then to where you end up with Carly,
or even the two of them, right.
You know, like their own relationship and where they go and where they end up.
You know, I wonder if, if part of that group therapy was like, you
know what I did tell cap one time you are the kind of person you put down.
Like, I wonder if that happened.
That would be, you know, because that is such a powerful way to put
it, you know, such a dehumanizing way to put it in and stuff.
Um, so yeah, like it's at mattress worthy is Sam, like if he didn't, if
he didn't know and had to ask like, Hey, who's actually the bad guy.
And capsulate like the one shooting at you, like how much does he really know?
Trey: Oh, well that went into the dressing
room.
So I think we're getting to the climax of this film, which is the final sequence
where they have pushed back against Hydra.
And Steve has made the declaration that eight is Alexander Pierce, who is
behind all the chaos that has ensued, uh, in the previous days, uh, shuffle
and, you know, I, I couldn't get out of this review without taking some time to
talk about that captain America speech that he gives, uh, you know, to start
with the quote, you know, he says the price of freedom has always been high,
but it's a price I'm willing to pay.
And if I'm the only one, then so be it.
But I'm willing to bet I'm not.
And again, I I've said it multiple times, this episode, multiple times last episode,
it is the inspiration to do better.
And it is almost reminiscent of the dark night.
And we've alluded to it many times if that boat experiment and about like
each boat has the trigger and it's the trust of each other, not to push it.
The thing that I like about this that feels like it goes a little bit further.
Because the infiltration of Hydra is a thing that is
indistinguishable from each other.
Like nobody knows who's on what side.
The thing that I think is wonderful about this speech is that captain
America has equipped everybody with the chance to pick up that shield.
Because even though they can't tell who is on what side of this,
this dilemma, the compass that they have is to do the right thing.
And we see that.
In so many different cases.
So for example, you have the one where rum lo is charging the, the, the guy at
the computer and he stands his ground.
And that kicks off that whole shootout that happens there.
Uh, you have the, um, the various different guards who are fighting
against each other, as they're trying to get to the, uh, the
aircraft and trying to stop them.
They're like, it's just multiple situations where you don't really have a
clearly defined idea of who is the quote unquote bad guy, but the willingness
of people to stand for what is right is just echoed through cap speech.
And I love it.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, okay.
The part that I want to hone into right there, what you just said
about not knowing who's wrong.
Right?
Good, bad.
We get that in the standoff, you know, so, so not only we get that in the speech, but
we get that physically in the standoff.
Um, and again, the Russo brothers and their knowledge of films.
You know, reading, listen to the commentary that standoff was broken.
I'm forgetting now who did it, but like something dropped and fell on the floor.
And so there was like this silent and then this all of a sudden this
crash, you know, and then that's kind of what kicked off the action and
the, and that broke that tension.
And that was an homage to, uh, William Africans, the Exorcist and the use
of, I think it was a telephone ring to break this tension or something like
that, but like, they're getting their knowledge of, of, of film and to be able
to say like, oh, how do I break tension?
Oh, this is how they did it.
It was, that was there.
And so I'm going to intentionally do that.
Um, that's where, again, not, I want to get sidetracked, but that's where
I just really makes me angry when I hear the whole, this is not cinema.
Thanks.
Because cause I listened to that commentary and think about the
thoughtfulness behind it, the understanding of film history, the
under the understanding of wanting to tell a story and it's just like,
no, there is a craft to it as well.
You know what I mean?
That, that they're clearly displaying, you know, as, as filmmakers.
Trey: And I think one of the other arguments too, is like, you
know, movies are supposed to move people and make them feel things.
Have you not been listening to me for the last two hours?
Jude: Yeah.
Like, and they do, like, they do make you, you know, move and fill things.
Do we have to all feel the same thing?
No.
Are we going to all feel the same thing?
No.
Um, you know, the, but that's fine.
You know?
And, and so, yeah, so like, that's, that was something else that stuck out when
you mentioned that is like that moment.
And, and that was something from what I watched and listened to that commentary
God, when the DVD first came out years ago, um, that moment of just like, oh
man, that is just a clever way of like, you know, as a filmmaker, I get the
script, you have cap speech, you get this tension and you build up to this moment.
Okay.
But what breaks it?
Who makes the first move, you know, um, You know, and it was a clever way to do
Trey: that.
And, you know, and I had talked about, again, the way that the compass
that people have within this final sequence is to do the right thing.
It speaks volumes about Natasha and we get the closure of her, of her story here.
You know, again, I started this half of the podcast by saying, this is just as
much her story as it is, uh, Steve Rogers.
And that moment that she's able to get to like the declaration
of, I don't care about.
Obvious gating, who I am to self for self preservation.
She is going to dump out everything on the internet so that it is laid
bare for everybody to, to have eyes on both the good and bad.
And the fact that she's at a point where she can comfortably do that
because she knows it's the right thing.
And the step towards building a more honest relationship with anyone like
abroad, being able to build honest relationships, I think is huge for
her development within this movie.
Jude: Yeah.
He's like Pierce was the one that said it.
Are you ready for the world to see all your secrets or to see who you really are?
And without hesitation, she was like, are you, you know, um, and which, which
I love because it it's, it's a moment of full agency on her part of doing this.
Uh, she understands the ramifications, you know, and, and.
You know, there was a kind of a passive aggressive thing on, on Pierce's part.
Like, cause it wasn't very violent.
It was just, are you ready for this?
Are you sure?
It kind of, you know, this implanting of doubt and it's like, nah, I got
this, you know, um, bring it on.
So, so yeah, I loved that element of that, that story.
Trey: And how cool is it that moment where they're able to work in the,
the face swap of you think it's one of the, uh, global defense counsel
and then do you have that revelation?
No, it's Natasha that moment.
I'll never forget in the theater.
It was just like, whoa.
And then it's just, I dunno, this movie continues.
Believe it or not.
I am holding back from just gushing.
I'm trying to make it pertinent and not just be like, oh, that's so cool.
But it slips out every now and then.
Jude: No, it's, it's a, it's a movie worth gushing over.
Okay.
The last thing notes wise that, that I have, and I want to make sure,
I, I say a friend of mine actually, you know, responded when we put out
the call with like, Hey, what are, what are the things that come out,
uh, or the, the standout to you?
Um, and the response was, you know, from a friend, father, David Lugo,
S J Jesuit said he drops the shield.
A true hero, knows when to stop fighting.
So just a quick context.
So for him, uh, we worked together briefly for three years and that's just part of
the Jesuit society of Jesus formation, where they go to school to one of their
schools, the Jesuit school, and worked for three years and then, and then move on.
So he was there during that time of age of Ultron coming out and we saw Dr.
Strange, uh, I almost said multi-verse madness, but Dr.
Strange.
When you come out, you know, at the same, at the same time and stuff, and
we would have all these conversations.
And one of the things that we kept circling back to with this movie
and just media in this John, or in general, is that so often see this
redemption of our characters and the, in this banality of this hero's
journey and cycle and in violence.
And some of the shows that most stick with us, this one return to the Jetta that
comes to mind is when they dropped the lightsaber, right, is like, I, I, the,
the right thing to do is to not fight.
And in this and this, this thing of, like, I know you don't recognize me in that,
that exact moment, but I recognize you.
I know who you are.
I'm not going to fight you and lays down that, that shield, um, which
also ends what you were talking about in my head that, that the
shield has its own character.
Right.
And in that, that arc of like, you know, of what the shield stands for
and what it doesn't and the ability to drop the shield when you should, you
know, and actually kind of alluding to John Walker that will get years later.
Um, so yeah, so like that moment.
You know, and we actually, the Russo brothers did it the same.
It's very similar thing.
And this whole getting away from her redemptive violence, uh, trope
or motif in, in civil war as well.
I'll save that thought for when we do civil war.
But, but yeah, I love that.
That was his response.
And cause, cause we talked about it a lot, you know, when, when we, not that we S
we still talk, but like when it was like day to day, you know, working together,
talking, and that was just, you know, fabulous moment in this, in this film.
Trey: Yeah.
One, I mean, it makes sense why they pick, pick the scene as one of the first
memorable, because it is such a huge.
And it is the encapsulation.
I think of everything.
Steve has learned up to this point and because we have the benefit of hindsight.
Now we know it is the start of what he gets to by the end of civil war.
When he says I put my faith in people, uh, I think the thing that makes this
moment special is he has the mission.
He knows he needs to do with those drives that he's putting in so that it can
rewrite the project inside files so that it takes out the ships and not the people.
So in that moment, that is the most important thing, because that is how he's
going to save the most amount of people.
At the same time.
He has Bucky who is adamant about stopping Steve.
And when the answer in front of Steve is to put them down, as Sam says, he
continues to not fall into that trap.
And even after finishing the original mission.
That putting down the shield.
That is the lesson.
I think he was trying to instill to Nick fury in that moment, when they're
talking about like, Hey, I looked at those SSR files like you D you guys
did some pretty messed up stuff.
I mentioned, there comes a point where you have to put the weapon down.
And I think the, the moment here is signifying that people
can never come before Nick can never come after the mission.
Uh, if that makes sense, like that is what, what Steve has realized.
It's like, it is not these institutions that I have to blindly follow
it is the trust in each other.
And even like you said, even though Bucky doesn't recognize them, Steve does.
And so that is the, the, the Gracie's extending to Bucky to help put him
back on the path to redemption and outside of this mindlessness that he
is unfortunately found himself, uh, uh,
Jude: warped into.
I love it.
There's that whole recognition.
This other person's humanity, this, this, I see you.
I, I recognize you.
You are not my enemy.
I'm not going to fight you.
Like, eh, it just beautiful
Trey: and the way it transitions to where you can see how it starts.
Like this is the mission for Bucky, but by the end, where.
He is like I'm with you to then in line Bucky screaming at them.
He's like, no, you don't like, he just like, he cannot rectify why
this person won't put up a fight and that is single-handedly erasing
or a chipping away, I should say.
Cause we're not completely there yet chipping away at the programming that
he's been given his entire life where you can even flash back to that moment
where he meets with Alexander Pierce.
And he's talking about like that man, he knew me, he said he recognized
me Bucky as appealing to humanity and to friendship and peers, his
answer is to just rewrite it.
And so the fact that we come back to this moment and Steve is like, no, I
I'm going to treat you as a person.
It just
Jude: it's so good.
And Bucky in winter soldier mode, the only language he knows is violence, you know?
And, and, and it just does.
Registered it doesn't compute of how somebody or why somebody wouldn't.
Trey: And I mean, look what he ends up ultimately doing.
He saved Steve.
Like I think that was something that stood out to me in the director's commentary,
where they said, you know, here we are, again, Steve Rogers has given his life to
the thing that he believes in and where it not for Bucky, he would have died.
And so in a sense, Steve loses, but it is because of the slow.
Lesson, he has taught Bucky.
He's actually saved himself through Bucky.
If that makes sense.
I don't want to take away from the change in Bucky, but it is like to show you that
captain America effect of the inspiration.
It's just, I love it.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Trey: Oh man.
Well, it took two parts, but I think we did it, man.
Jude: I don't know.
I'm not happy with our work.
Let's do it again.
Uh, all right.
Trey: We'll start over.
Believe it or not.
And this isn't like a complaint or anything.
I still feel like there are things we could have
Jude: said 100%, 100% like this is and could have been worthy of a third episode,
but now I am, I am truly pleased with, with our coverage and I'm excited to hear.
What do y'all think?
Trey: Well, I'll tell you what we can transition here too.
Again, we said it last week.
Uh, we're going to finish off some of the ones we didn't get to
interject as we were discussing, but we put it out on social media.
Uh, what is the scene that sticks out to you when you
think about the winter soldier?
Uh, and here are some of the responses we had.
So the first one, uh, comes in from TK on Instagram.
There was an idea, a quote, so many, but I love camp and Nat undercover
at the mall, quote, unquote specimen.
And on a serious note, the price of freedom is high speech.
And it makes sense that that would be the one that is TK serious one as much
as they are a fan of captain America's.
I am I, that that scene is just a perfect captain.
America's
Jude: scene captured.
Or Instagram, depending on your age bracket, apparently, uh, he actually
said too, we mentioned one an episode already in the elevator fight, but the
other is the street fight with buggy, uh, which it's such a great choice,
although you didn't get specific those two street streetlights of Bucky.
So I'm assuming I'm going to go with the second one.
Assuming you meet with, with, with cat.
I'm
Trey: assuming the second one too.
You can let us know Sean.
Uh, the next one comes in from a Nick Sandy on Instagram, and it says,
when Thanos says you should have gone for the head after cap smashes,
Stanos his toe with a shield so dope.
No, but that scene where the mask falls off and Steve noticed this Bucky,
Nick, Sandy keeping us on our toes.
Jude: I would love to see that somewhere.
And like one of those, how it should have ended videos,
uh, Marvel with red on Instagram, oddly.
Nick fury talking about his grandfather, I believe is what comes to mind.
You know what I, it's interesting.
You say oddly, but there is an element of.
We don't get a lot of Nick fury, the human side of them.
And there, there is in the MCU, that's the first entry of him telling this story.
So yeah, like I get it.
I get why that one,
Trey: it's a powerful scene.
Yeah.
This one comes in from fashion, Jimmy on Twitter and it says, this is my
favorite MCU movie opening scene, the ship fury versus the quote unquote cops.
But the one that gets me every time is when Steve goes to see Peggy and they
have a conversation, then her mind slips and she sees them again for the
quote unquote, first time since world war II, the pain and Steve's eyes.
And I have to agree with Jimmy.
I don't think it's a scene.
We really honed in on that much outside of alluding to it in other cases,
but it really is a truly powerful scene that one of the last remaining
threads of connectivity that Steve Roger has is, uh, unfortunately not.
Present in a way.
And that's, it's echoing with the themes that I think he's wrestling.
Jude: Uh, Mr.
Melt on Twitter freeway fight scene.
This is by far the best choreography to date in the MCU, um, trade.
Did you want to dispute that and was shonky oh, no.
Sorry, Mr.
Mel, I am not messing with you.
I'm more messing with Trey and his competing loves are shonky and
captain America, the winter soldier,
Trey: how dare you?
How dare you.
Listen, we'll have to save it for whenever we do an episode
on the best fight scenes TMC.
Because
Jude: I'm with them, especially if like you do see some of these behind
the scene that, um, you didn't have to have the DVD barriers of entry.
Did you can find it on YouTube where Sebastian, Stan was
just that cool night flip.
Like he was just walking around, practicing that, like I got to
get this down and practicing that.
And then it was the choreography because we talked about this.
It was personal.
It was intense.
Uh, you break that moment of, oh, this is a person.
So yeah, like a hundred percent with you.
Trey: And finally, and so perfectly poetic that this is the one we had done.
Uh, it comes from friend Daniel on Twitter and the form of a gift,
which is the, on your left scene at the beginning of the movie.
And I'm glad it is the one we're ending on here at the end.
Uh, what a great way to bring that back.
Of course, those are the reactions we had from the listeners.
So if you want to get in on that and you should definitely make sure to be
following us, uh, at MC you need to know on Twitter and Instagram, but, uh, I think
that's gonna do it any final thoughts here
Jude: on the way out.
Thank you for that's one of our first two partner.
Um, for both of us, there was some reservation on breaking this up
into two parts, just, you know, full honesty with, with people that, uh,
It was fun and I'm glad we gave it.
I think we gave this film, the, uh, treatment that it, um, it might not
have been in the podcasting needed, but it is the podcasts they deserve
or what, how does that link up now?
Uh, it all comes back to knowing you appreciate the, you know,
indulging us in doing the two-parter it, you know, so, yeah.
Um, Yeah.
Trey: And, and I'll extend that thanks to you, Jude.
Uh, because if listeners are following us on social media, you will see, we put
up the behind the scenes conversation where we debated whether or not to do it.
And this is without a doubt, your idea.
And it was the right one.
So I want to make sure just in case the other one, doesn't make it in the edit.
Thank you.
Uh, this, this, this made me re discover a love for this movie.
I haven't felt in a really long time.
Jude: That's awesome.
Uh, and of course you want to get more of those behind the scenes
snippets that we try to get out for.
You make sure stray said you're following us on social media.
And join the discord.
Um, you know, and you truly be behind the scenes and interact with us
friend, Daniel, Sean, for the caption life jumps in every once in a while.
Elliot from OSHA podcast jumps in every once in a while.
Um, gosh, TK, you know, well, every once in a while, jump in and number
of other people we listen to, and it's just a fabulous community,
uh, for all the Marvel stuff.
Make sure you click on the roll of sign, click on the emojis.
Um, and again, as, as we talk about it as a community share with friends,
like, you know, it's, it's wonderful to do we have this outlet to, to
listen, but we definitely want to, you know, uh, have that conversation.
Cause we truly love this stuff.
Trey: And of course we'd like to thank Nick Sandy for the use
of our theme song, which is his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You can find more of his work on a SoundCloud, which is linked
in the show notes as well.
That's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you tray.
We'll see you all next week.
boom.
That's
Jude: an episode.
Okay.
Such a sentimental thing on like the, on your left with friend Daniel
and the first thing that came to mind, and I don't remember, I got
to find it, but there was some meme.
You know of drawing me or whatever of like Sam, like that moment
right before he showed up in, in game where he's like telling Dr.
Strange.
He's like, no, no, I sent that to you.
I, you, the synergy it's like, no, no, I have to be on the left.
I have to go to the left,
Trey: make sure he is on his
Jude: left.
So like finally, you know, just a sentimental tone of your voice.
And all I could think about was that it was like, say,
no, no, it has to be the like,
Trey: oh man, I gotta be sure to put that in the show notes of this.