WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.000 Welcome to No Compromises. A peek into the mind of two old web devs who have seen some things. This is Joel. 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.000 And this is Aaron. 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:21.000 I've been struggling with something. I don't know if it's going to be self-serving compared to some of the stuff we do, 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:26.000 or if it's just a sign of the times. Or, if I'm being an old cranky man. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Yes. 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:35.000 Or all these different things. But as times going on here, and I hate to just focus on one particular technology. 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:42.000 I hate to always point at AI, because that's what everyone's saying right now. But it's just cultural when it comes to documentation 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:51.000 and getting code out the door and all these different things. But I'm feeling a little frustrated, or sadness, or wondering if everything's 00:00:52.000 --> 00:01:00.000 falling apart when it comes to, do people even care about the why anymore? So, I'll sort of bundle this up into an idea. 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:07.000 Which is, let's just say we have a really tough problem in our code, and we want to solve it. And it's without a tool like Claude or Codex, 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:11.000 or something like that. But you have to do some research, you have to Google, you have to read some manuals. 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:17.000 You have to sort of figure out, like, did anyone have this problem before? How is it? Whatever. 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:22.000 And then when you sort of figure out maybe what the solution is, as you start to figure out the solution, you kind of have few choices too. 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:29.000 Copy and paste from Stack Overflow. If that were good to go, move on. Or, read the manual a little bit and sort of understand. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:36.000 And I think before the world was probably split 50/50, right? People would just try to run out the door and just, "Whatever. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:42.000 I'll copy and paste it from Stack Overflow." But there was a really good portion of people who also said, "Yeah, I'll look at a Stack Overflow. 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:47.000 But I've done that before. I know when I copy and paste it, it's not always a solution, but it pointed me in the right direction. 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:52.000 I can now look at the manual and understand a little bit more. And now I understand what the solution is for my problem." 00:01:53.000 --> 00:02:00.000 So, I'm just making up numbers, but I kind of feel like that was 50/50 before, right? It was 50% of people did one way, and 50% of people sort of cared. 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:07.000 One or another. And then the level of depth that you went into finding out why something was different per programmer, but you sort of knew why. 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:16.000 I'm noticing that when I run into challenges now, myself, or as I'm watching other people on internet, things like that, use AI tooling. 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:24.000 They'll run into a problem, and then they'll say, which is correct, "Here is the problem I'm running into, AI tool. What is the solution?" 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:33.000 And it'll say, "Well, here's a solution," or, "here is the solution," or, "here is a solution." It'll work almost like copying and pasting from Stack Overflow. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:41.000 But I'm feeling like people, that at least I've seen and even myself, you get sort of sucked into that high of just work. It's awesome. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:47.000 AI sounds like intelligence, so it's probably right. And you don't even understand the why, and kind of move past. 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:54.000 And I think that's a bad thing, but I'm having a hard time articulating why. 00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:05.000 Yeah. Would it be fair to label that maybe intellectual curiosity? Like, wanting to go a level deeper than just, 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:13.000 "This thing works, and I know it works," but like, "Do I know why it works? And do I know why this is even a good solution?" 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Well, I would say it's about intellectual curiosity, but it's also about requirements. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:29.000 For example, I don't... Let me bring it back. Way, way back in the day, you had to memorize stuff that was now in an encyclopedia. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:36.000 So people before, you know 1900s, had to memorize things that were required for their profession. 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:44.000 And then, I'm sure encyclopedia has been around for a long time, but there was a sort of manual or place to these things. 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:51.000 And as you write stuff down, you have to less know about it, right? Because you can sort of reference it and it's explained there. 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:59.000 So, why would I have... is it intellectual curiosity if I don't need to know it now, because I know that any one time I can go and ask the AI tool 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:05.000 again to explain it to me later if I actually need to know it, you know? And so, that's why I'm saying it's not an intellectual curiosity, per se. 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:16.000 It's the difference of something being available to you always on demand, versus "I need to know that in order to formulate something else." 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:26.000 Yeah, I do think there's a couple of layers to it. And I would say, even pre-AI, you know, those Stack Overflow days, 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:32.000 I think even within a single developer, I'll just talk about myself. There were days where I felt more time pressure, 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:37.000 where I didn't give myself the luxury of like, "Oh, let's go explore this and read the manual." And like, other days where it's like, 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:43.000 "No, I want to figure this out. I have the time to do so," right? So, it's a little context-dependent too. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:53.000 But I agree with your assessment that there's maybe just overall less of that now. And some of it is the tooling, and maybe some 00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:00.000 of it is like the pace of, or the expectation of how fast you get stuff done, because this tooling is now available. Right? 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:08.000 So, like, if I just fart around for half a day to figure out some cool thing, there's no clear return on investment in the short term of that. 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.000 Like, I could have done... maybe I could have shipped another feature in that time frame, or fixed two bugs. You know what I'm saying? 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:22.000 So, I think there's maybe multiple pressures internally and within a team that might lead a person to not take the time or put forth the effort 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:24.000 to dig into something. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:29.000 I think there's something about inspiration, too. When you're sort of figuring out something that you don't 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:33.000 necessarily need to know, you might learn other stuff. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Yes. 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.000 So, I know that I became a better programmer, a better PHP programmer, back in the day when I was writing a Symfony project 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:45.000 and I didn't really understand how to make Symphony forms way back in the day. So, I was reading the manual, and I was looking at the code, 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:52.000 and I started seeing other patterns of PHP that I hadn't used before. I'm like, "Wow, I think I like that. I think that can make its place into my own project." 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:58.000 But none of those patterns were actually required for me to see, for me to solve the problem. 00:05:59.100 --> 00:05:59.950 Yeah. 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:05.000 You know, so I didn't need to see that code because I didn't actually use that code that I was looking at to solve my problem. 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:07.000 But I happened to see it because I didn't know what I was looking for. 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:14.000 Yeah. I mean, that's serendipity, right? It's like you bump into one thing, and you kind of accumulate all these little things. 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:23.000 And then sometimes they they form a hole that you wouldn't have known before to even look for it. So there's benefits to that. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:30.000 I mean, should we discuss a concrete example? Because I know there was one in particular we were digging into a day or two ago, 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:40.000 and I think it's a good example of this. Which is, we were doing a code review, and I had a line of code, and it was an Eloquent query. 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:47.000 And I was basically trying to find jobs that should run, that didn't already run today. And so, it was like a simple date query, 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:58.000 where it's like, not equal today. But I also had orWhereNull, that column that we were tracking. And you're like, "Joel, why do you need that? 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:03.000 Like, wouldn't, not today also include null?" And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I think you're right." Like, I couldn't... 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:11.000 I was a little annoyed at myself that I couldn't explain the reasoning, but I knew I needed it. And in this case, I had tests so I could show you. 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:21.000 Like, I deleted it, like my tests fail. I knew it was needed, but I couldn't fully articulate why. I probably knew it really well, maybe 5-10, years ago. 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:28.000 Because I've bumped into this before, but I couldn't explain it to you. So, that annoyed me and I had to go research it and then share 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:36.000 with you why that's the case. And I felt good about that, but it's getting a little more rare. So that's kind of an example, like, was it truly necessary? 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:40.000 Or, like, could we have just moved on and everything would have been fine? 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:48.000 Yeah, I think... Well, that's the determining question here is, are you responsible for the code that you ship too? 00:07:49.100 --> 00:07:49.950 Yes. 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:53.000 And that's why I was asking you. Like, I don't care how you got the code, to where you got it. Like, why do you need to this right now? 00:07:54.000 --> 00:08:03.000 I don't think you do. I was wrong, but I don't think you did. And it's like, then if you couldn't explain that, then do you even own your code? 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:09.000 Yeah, right. In this case, it was... I mean, let's even take AI out of the picture. Let's say I wrote that code, 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:15.000 and I wrote it first without WhereNull and it didn't do what I expected, because my tests proved that. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:21.000 Then I added it and like, "Oh, now it does what I expect," but I still don't really know why I need that. 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:28.000 Like, that makes me a little uncomfortable. And maybe that's the old man in me, like you joked about at the beginning. 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:36.000 But I don't like that position, I need to know why. And once I understand it, then I do think it makes you a better programmer, too. 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:45.000 You know, because knowing the why behind something helps you see the actual problem you're solving and see how other things connect to it. 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:52.000 So, I was going to say, again, Joel, though, why? Why do I need to know that if I can, then reach over to my AI tool and be like, 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:58.000 "Here's my problem, solve it for me." I don't care how you do it, write the test. I wrote the test, it's not working. Code it. 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:05.000 Doesn't matter because the tests say it works. The user says it works, it doesn't matter. But you said something a little bit in there, 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:14.000 that is the key for me. Which is, it's not about even the curiosity, it's about knowing the domain to ask proper questions about. 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:15.950 Yes. 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:22.000 And so, AI tooling, or a fellow developer, more often than not... Well, AI tooling is going to give you one answer, unless you ask for multiple. 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:29.000 Fellow developer might give you one answer or two. But if you don't know the questions to even ask, you don't necessarily know how to get a 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:38.000 better response out of whatever resource you're using to interact with. So, when you say, "Why do I need to understand this?" It's because 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:45.000 that's the next level when you're looking at a solution and being like, "Okay, why did it do three if checks and null checks here?" 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:52.000 and all that kind of stuff. When you start to understand why, then you can ask questions in other parts of the application too. 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:59.000 Like, "Hey, in the past I've noticed that sometimes I've checked this for x, I do it for y. Why are we doing it here in this manner?" 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.000 And then you'll find sometimes the AI or the other developer be like, "Oh, yeah. You're right, that doesn't make sense. 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:09.000 I don't know why I told you do that." And it's not just AI, other developers do that. All of them, too. 00:10:10.100 --> 00:10:10.950 Sure. 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:13.000 Like, "Oh, that's right. More context. Yeah, that was stupid. I shouldn't have told you to do it that way." 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.000 I've been writing bad code for a long time, so I can't just blame Claude for it. 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:24.000 But, yeah. And sometimes, I know with you and I, "Why is that there?" It's like, "Oh, I needed that and then I refactored this other thing. 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:30.000 And now I don't need that, and now I just forgot to remove it." So, you know what? The beauty of code review, it highlights this. 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:38.000 But just one thing to come back to. Because you talked about domain knowledge and it's not even necessarily like... 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:45.000 I think you meant this like the domain of programming, not necessarily the business domain of the application. 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:53.000 Because I've had sessions with Claude where it makes a very compelling argument for something, and I don't like it. 00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:02.000 And if you don't know why to push back, or you don't have a detail to give it... Like, I've pushed back enough where it's like, "Oh yeah, you're right." 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:08.000 I mean, it always says, "You're right." But it genuinely... there was some piece of detail I wasn't giving it, or something bigger 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:15.000 in the architecture of the project I wasn't supplying. And once I was able to fill that in, then it led me to a better solution. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:26.000 So I agree, it's not... maybe intellectual curiosity was too weak, that could be a driving force. But it does result in a better product, 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:33.000 and just like better craft. And being able to do a better job and feel good about it too, I think is valuable as well. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:41.000 Yeah. I think if I were to say how we should look at this. Is, if you just want to pump stuff out the door just using AI, 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:49.000 you're a line cook at a restaurant, just doing stuff. If you are going to architect it and really spend time with it, 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:56.000 you're the head cook or sous chef. But if you actually have that intellectual curiosity where you come up with new dishes 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:01.000 and all that kind of stuff, you're the one who trains people. That's why we need to ask these questions and understand these stuff 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:08.000 so we can interact with our tooling and say, "Yeah, that is one solution. But here is details for other different solutions, 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:11.000 because I am the chef now." 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:23.000 You remember when you used to just be able to turn things off? Like, you just press the button or unplug it, 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.000 and then it was off. And I remember then it was like, Windows 95 or something like that, would be like, "Don't turn off your computer, 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:35.000 it's going to shut down. If you power it off, it may be corrupted," or whatever. I'm like, "That's where it just started, right?" 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:43.000 Now everything takes forever to even turn off. I don't understand it. I have this RODE podcaster device that connects multiple microphones 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:50.000 and all kinds of stuff. And when I turn it on, it takes it a while to load. Okay, I get it. There's a lot of computer stuff in there. 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:58.000 I don't know, buttons. Programmers suck, they take forever to program things. Got it. But when I press the power button to turn it off, at first says, 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:00.000 "Are you sure you want to turn it off?" 00:13:01.100 --> 00:13:01.950 Right. 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.000 Okay, "Yeah." I mean, it's a physical button that you had to press pretty hard. I have to hold it in order to press. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:08.000 Otherwise, I'll move the thing across my desk. So, "Yeah, I meant to turn it off." 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:09.950 Okay. 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:15.000 And when I press it, then it does this progress bar of like, dims the screen, and it's like, turning off. 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:26.000 It takes a good 20 seconds to move across there before it finally turns off. All it does is... what? Why? It's just microphone, right? 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:33.000 Yeah, I know. Like, as you're talking about this, there are things in my house I literally can't turn off. 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Like, you can put it to sleep, right? You can suspend it, you can reboot it. We had the power out at our house, and I want to turn everything down. 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:52.000 But my TV? There was no way to turn it off. I had to put it into sleep mode and then unplug it. But, yeah, why are we so afraid of turning things off, Aaron? 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:59.000 I mean, I get the sleep mode because it's fast to turn on, or whatever. But that's not what this... 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:08.000 it's like, what is it that you could possibly be doing that you need all that time to turn off? Like, maybe I got it for Windows, 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:16.000 it was like writing files back, had memory and stuff, but I guess there's sound effects on this. But shouldn't that have been saved at 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:22.000 the time it was created? And if I change a setting, don't you save it then? Like, what are you doing? 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:23.950 Yeah. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:33.000 It does turn off, though. You know you could use an AI tool like Claude to do a33 code review, but that's based off the average of knowledge. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.000 And you need your project to be above average, to be the best. 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:44.900 I couldn't agree more. If you'd like us to help you review your code, head over to masteringlaravel.io/codereview.