Intro: Boz did
MDMALet Me Run This By You: Will Smith and Chris Rock
Interview: We talk to
Katharine Scarborough about
The New School,
Ron Leibman,
Robert LuPone,
Casey Biggs, the Actor's Studio,
Neil Labute's
Fat Pig, Harvard's
A.R.T.,
Shakespeare & Company,
Moscow Art Theatre,
Biomechanics,
Michael Chekhov technique,
Michael Chekhov Theatre Festival,
Ragnar Freidank,
Mabou Mines,
Dixon Place,
The Brick Theater,
JoAnne Akalaitis,
Big Girl web series,
Jean Taylor, clowning, clown burlesque, improv culture,
Bridesmaids,
Melissa McCarthy, actor branding, cultivating a good relationship with agents,
One on One NYC.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
And at 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? So I think the main thing I just want to say is like, I took drugs, but we call it the medicine. Right. Everyone's like in the ma so I did, and I won't, it's still illegal because it's still in third clinical trials, but I took MTMA with a trained MTMA guide. Who's also a therapist whose name I shall not say so that she doesn't go to jail for some weird reasons. And I'm going to tell you, and you probably already know this from your, from, I know you have some like knowledge about psychiatry or about psychedelics in terms of medical use and stuff like that.
1 (1m 12s):
Not that you've done them, but you know what I mean? I know you, whatever the point is, I think it's going to change psychiatry. Like it's going to change
2 (1m 21s):
A hundred percent.
1 (1m 22s):
I had. Okay. First of all, I was scared shitless. So MTMA is the pure forum for people that don't know of, of ecstasy or Molly, but it's, it's, you know, pharmaceutical grade and it's whatever, it's very, you know, whatever, it's a, it's a legit medicine, but I was scared. I was like, I'm going to die. I'm going to take this. This is where for someone that has anxiety more than I have depression, I think now anyway, in my life, the fear was I'm I'm doing something illegal. This is wrong. And I'm going to suffer for it also, like that was the moralistic fear. And then the actual fear of what the fuck is going to happen.
1 (2m 3s):
So for people, you know, just so people know, like you're in this person, rented a house and Airbnb and had a beautiful, I was, it was just me and her and a beautiful, like, amazing bed. That was that she brings in. That's like a foam, a memory foam. It's not as shitty thing. It's like really great. And I even thought that before I was on drugs, right? Like I was like, this is a really good setup. The house was a neutral house. Meaning she picked a great thing, which was there. Wasn't the, the family of the people's art on the walls. It was like pictures of surfing and stuff and like water.
1 (2m 44s):
But like not a lot of people, there were no mirrors. Like I was like, is this made for this? And she's like, no, I just found this. There was no, no, the house was clean. So it felt really good. Right. But not sterile. So that was great. And she had flowers and stuff and there was like a table set up. So then you go in, you bring objects and, and pictures, if you want. And there's two kinds of MDM assisted therapy, right. There's talk therapy you could do with two therapists. I did not. This, this practitioner does not do that kind. She's a firm believer in like letting the client lead their own experience.
1 (3m 26s):
And at first I was like, oh, I hate that. I want you to take care of me. Like I was like, I want all the therapists in the room. Right. It was like a real, and then I said, you know, no, I'm gonna, I'm an adult. Like I can it's. Okay. And also when you have two therapists in the room, they, they, they use the music less. So what I will say is the music was, I would say 90% of what was amazing about this. I don't even like music really. Like, I'm not a music person, but you, you literally have your headphones noise, canceling headphones with th with curated music from MTMA musicians.
1 (4m 7s):
So people that have scientists have worked with psychiatrists and doctors to develop music specifically for psychedelic MTMA journeys it's and it's timed with the medicines. So, because they know, because they've done studies, they know the trajectory of the journey in terms of what you're going to be, what kind of thing is going to be maybe happening. So they time this music. So you put on these headphones and there's like blankets. And I brought my own blanket. And it's you do like beforehand, you say a prayer and like, not a prayer, but like, yeah, like, like a, like a meditation tension.
1 (4m 47s):
We said, I, and believe me, this was not something I took lightly in terms of, I for weeks have been committed to doing it. So then there's a workbook beforehand there's sessions with the therapist beforehand. So it is not a party. This is not, I cannot say this enough. It is a journey and not a party. So meaning that it's a whole thing. It's like a process it's it's therapy. It's it's medical treatment is what it is. Okay. So you have this headphones on and also the music is playing in the room as well, the same music. So that even if you take your headphones off, you hear it and okay. And you have total blackout shades on, on your eyes.
1 (5m 31s):
So a mask that is comfortable and soft, but really dark. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to die. Like, this is, this is it. This is how I die. And then I was like, you know what? You have so much, like you you've done so much research. You've watched the videos, you know, this is not gonna, they're gonna kill you, but you're scared. Okay. But I just took the pill. I was like, okay, here we go. So I took the pill and then you lay down and you're like, okay, it's not working. Like none of it. And by the way, I've never taken equity in my life. I've taken throughs and I'm taking acid and obviously marijuana I've smoked and stuff and edibles, but never that. So I was like, nah, it's not working.
1 (6m 12s):
And then the music, okay, well, all I can say is it becomes a party for your body and the notes I will share with you in an email that she took. I said some of the funniest things that I've ever said, and also you're like still aware that you're you. So it's not the feeling because for someone like me who has trauma and panic, the big fears that you'll disappear, I will disappear. I won't have an identity and no one will take care of me. And I will, I will totally decompensate to the point of death. Like that is really the thing, this drug, this medicine, you know, you're still you like, if, if, if a police officer, God forbid came up and said, what's your name?
1 (6m 57s):
And you could answer all those questions. It's just, it literally turns off the part of your brain that is super judgy. So I knew what was happening sort of, but then the music, I was like, okay, this is not working. And all of a sudden, Gina, the music becomes the most beautiful music you've ever heard in your life. Like, you can't believe that humans made the music. Like I was like, this is, and I, I kept saying, this is like watching a movie with your body. So you're. Yeah. So you're like, and then, okay, so you feel, I felt great. And like, you're underwater, you can breathe under water and there's some visuals, but you're seeing nothing.
1 (7m 40s):
I mean, there's no, there's black, but you're seeing it. So you are kind of hallucinating. But the thing, and the thing that happens is with MTMA is that the whole principle is that inside of us, that these MTMA psychiatrists and therapists believe that there is an inner healer drive to live person who knows better inside of all of us before the trauma happens. Right. It's moved that we access that part of ourselves during the MTMA journey and you, and that's why they say trust the medicine. And I'm like, that is, fuck you. Trust them like beforehand. I was like, but you, and don't get ahead of the medicine, all these things they say.
1 (8m 21s):
And you're like, what? But you, you know what it means once you do it, you're like you is the most. So you're feeling good. I felt like you just feel relaxed and, but it gets you in that state. So then you can look at your trauma, so,
3 (8m 38s):
Oh, okay. Like making everything, just so PR conditions being perfect. Yeah.
1 (8m 44s):
And then you're like, oh, this is a hard song. So it feels like, oh, this is a hard song. And that's how I started to feel. This is going to be a song. And it, and I can only tell you that, like I worked through some it's, it is, it's like 12 therapy sessions in six hours in a, in a, in a, in a wonderful way in that I looked at some stuff, some crazy stuff, but it is not, we're not when we're on MTMA we're not attached to the trauma. So it's like watching a movie, but also you're feeling it.
1 (9m 27s):
Like I could feel fear and panic come up. So it wasn't like I had a good time all the time, but I wasn't, you can go towards it without feeling like you're going to be annihilated. I didn't think I was ever going to be annihilated by my trauma in the, in the medicine. I felt like I had the resources and I knew there, and I was curious about what the songs and the music and the drug was going to show me rather than petrified. And I have to get the fuck out of here. And like, I don't care what I do.
3 (10m 6s):
Did you ha did you remember things that you hadn't remembered before?
1 (10m 10s):
No. It was like, well, no, no. It was like different. It does it in a way that is like, not you. So the things I worked through, I can say it was like a song and the music is timed. When you're at the peak of the medicine for this, it was like some crazy, like intense, you know, soundtrack to a scary, not a scary movie, like, like, like a war movie. Right. And you're like, oh God. And at least that was my experience. But then what happened was I had a nine 11 situation where I was in the burning building is so crazy. This is nine 11. And I'm in a burning building on the 94, but I'm not panicked. I'm like, okay, this is what's happening.
1 (10m 52s):
And I go to a man and a woman who are dressed in business clothes, and they're sort of tattered. And we've all been through this horrible crash. And I say, you guys, we have to jump now. And they're like, fuck, you know, way to a man and a woman blonde lady. And I say, listen, I know you're really scared work on a jump together. We're together. And this is the last conscious choice we get to make as a group to do, to take, to take our lives in our own hands. I'm going to ask you now to take my hands and we're going to jump and they're like petrified and I'm like, we can do it. And then, and I'm here watching Jen, the observers, like what is going to happen, but not like I got to get the fuck outta here and clawing at my skin.
1 (11m 38s):
No, no, no more like we, I knew that we had to do this. And so I took their hand and we jumped and then we started flying. We flew away. So I like helped them to, and it's really me helping me. Right. So like, I get that now. But like, and so I wasn't like petrified. So that was a huge moment. But the other moment was none of the people I didn't want to come in, came in. So like your inner healer knows, like I didn't want to see my parents and I didn't want to see my sister. And I didn't. I saw my dad in the, like a field and he was young and happy. Great. We like, that was great.
1 (12m 18s):
But in the song, there was a, like a Tibetan song nothing's in English, which is great. So like, if there are words and lyrics, it's not an English, which is great. Unless you speak those languages, then you might know what they're saying, but I did not. And so there was a Tibetan, like guys scream, like screaming, singing, like chanting. And in my head, I was like, oh, this is the reckoning song. This is where he makes other people atone for their sins against me. He's yelling at them, all the bad things they did to me. So I don't have to do it like stuff like that comes forward where you're like, holy fuck. So, and then the other thing was the name.
1 (13m 1s):
And I will say this, and I will not say the name, but the name of someone I think like sexually abused me as a child came forward. And it just said, the name of your perpetrator is, and then there was the name and it wasn't scary. And it was at the end of my journey. And it was sort of like, this is just the name and it's the name I knew. And it's a name that I had questions about. And I was like, oh, okay. And it was like, not a dun dun dong. It was like, this is
3 (13m 33s):
Okay. Okay. Oh my God. I make so many feelings.
1 (13m 37s):
Oh God. Yeah. So, so that is my, so my takeaways are still, I have many sessions afterwards. I'm gonna meet with her tonight on zoom. And we it's an ongoing process. I don't know if I'd ever do it again. They say like, you just do a maximum of three, three sessions for any person, unless you have like severe, severe trauma. And then sometimes they mix it with mushrooms and ketamine and they do all kinds of things for like combat veterans and stuff like that. Or just people that are really stuck for years that are on like 40 meds. And like can't. So I will say that it's changing psycho, like it, because you are self fricking guided.
1 (14m 21s):
It is, I didn't make the experience about anyone, but myself and I was able to take ownership over. Like it was parts were scary. Parts were lovely. Parts were fun, but it was my experience. So like, you don't lie.
3 (14m 40s):
You're the protagonist in a story.
1 (14m 42s):
And I didn't make the therapist, the leader, or I sh she was there as a witness. So what I'm saying about MTMA therapy is if you are committed to it is one it's just like fucking having a dog or getting married or anything else. If you don't really have to, or need to do it, I would say, don't do it. But if you are someone who is in therapy, working on your shit and you feel stuck, or you feel like there is a trauma that you just refuse to touch in there, talk therapy or whatever MTMA is, is the thing. But, but I really recommend, like I took a shit ton of supplements before a shit ton of supplements after HTP, all things you can get at whole foods because your body does need to.
1 (15m 29s):
And I got a massage, you got to do it the right way. Like this is, I tell people it's not a party, but it's also, it's like a journey. And it's also a huge self care thing. It's like, it's all the all, and they say, the minute you commit to the medicine like that, you're going to go on a journey. The medicine starts working. So like stuff will come up before then you're on. So all this to say, what are your thoughts when you hear this?
3 (15m 55s):
Well, I mean, I'm, That's what I would be scared of this Learning something new about my past.
1 (16m 12s):
Right, right. I know. I know. It's
3 (16m 17s):
Afterwards. How do you feel about that?
1 (16m 20s):
I, I feel like she not first want to say, like, I totally get that. I was petrified and I, The worst in our life has already happened to us because we were children and we could not do anything about it. That is the worst part of the whole thing is that we were little and had no resources. That is the crime that was committed against us. Not that it, it was that we were resource lists. The thing about MTMA and how I feel. I never felt resource lists.
1 (17m 0s):
I knew
3 (17m 2s):
If I'm prepared
1 (17m 3s):
And in the journey, even while I was like, oh, this is going to be hard, but I never felt like D I was in danger and I never felt like a child. So trauma robs you of your adult hood. Right. So it tells you you're still five and you're still in the situation and nobody's going to help you. You don't feel like that on MTMA. I don't know about, I feel like on other drugs you might, but MTMA is like really renowned for people feeling in somewhat in control. Like I could have, I wouldn't want to drive a car, but if like I needed to, I could have been like, oh, Hey, let's get out of the house now, but I hear you.
1 (17m 43s):
But it is so evident in my journey that like,
3 (17m 51s):
We w it really helps to grow you up. Let me run this fine. Everybody has trauma that they need to look at. And that leads us into what we definitely have to run by each other, which is th this thing that happened at the Oscars and talk about trauma. And, you know, all I could see in that moment was two little boys. I saw Gina.
3 (18m 30s):
Exactly. I thought, oh, they're so hurt. So deeply hurt. I have no tools right now to it, especially for will Smith. It's like, he, he short-circuited somehow. And was his trauma was unable to stay under wraps and it came out in, on a public stage. And that's all I could see too, because that's my framework. That's my, that's my paradigm. Yeah. And, and, you know, of course in the information age that we're in and the, in the social media age, the, the, the, the second something like that happens, all anybody can think about is like, what are the hot takes going to be on Twitter?
3 (19m 16s):
Right. Okay. Well, there's a variety of takes, but they all seem to be mostly focused on who was wrong or what was wrong, you know, which to me is like, not the point, you know, like it's, who's hurt, who is hurting and what are they going to do about their hurt? You know, I said, yeah. I said, these people, all of them involved need help and support. Absolutely. They need help need shunning. They don't need, you know, I mean, and, and I don't really hear too many people talking about Chris rock, but I mean, I hope his people are checking on him because he gave his help to television.
3 (20m 1s):
And I just, I know that that has happened to him before. Right. I just felt like this is such a redo of his child that I don't know that it must be. And he said, you know, he's talked about everybody hates Chris. That was a joke. And he talks about getting him, getting in trouble with his mouth before, but I don't know, man. It was just so raw. And I kinda think they just, I guess they had to air it, but, and it's sort of live or whatever, but I don't know. I just, I wish there had been, I wish the grownups had come in. Well, what we need all I was telling my therapist yesterday, we need referees to say, wait, time out time, like psychological referees that are like, this is actually going into a territory.
3 (20m 43s):
That's not okay. So like, let's stop and regroup, but nobody, you know, it's
1 (20m 47s):
Capitalism and money. And nobody cares about psychology.
3 (20m 49s):
It's like, oh, good ratings. You know, this is getting before,
1 (20m 52s):
Like, fuck them. They're rich. So who cares about them? Or fuck that.
3 (20m 55s):
I hate that. I, that argument just really is just so tired. Like, oh, if you have money, then you're not allowed to have any other problem for life.
1 (21m 4s):
Well, the other thing I think is like, if we, if we live in a capitalist world, which we do, and basically the rich people run things, I want my rich people to be healthy.
3 (21m 13s):
Amen to that. Yes.
1 (21m 16s):
Yeah.
3 (21m 18s):
And talk about tools and resources. I mean, they, they that's, that's the one thing I will say, if you have those resources, you have a responsibility to make use of them in a way that contributes not detracts from the world and yourself and the people that you love and who love you, you know? Yeah. So it was sad. And, but at the same time, I was happy. There was theater back in the Oscars. I was happy about all of the firsts that happened. I was, I, it, it looked to me to be the most inclusive orange show I've ever seen in terms of what they talked about and hoop in the symbolism.
3 (21m 58s):
And I really, I really get into the symbolism, you know, when people wear certain things and do certain things, and this rep, you know, I'm sure if we could talk to the set designer, we would, we would learn a lot about what the symbolism was of the set. And so I thought that was interesting. I was wondering where they were sitting around these tables because it's not like the golden gloves are not eating meals. And then when, when these dancers got on, I thought, oh, this is for this. And, and it just felt like theater. And I just thought, yeah, okay, good. We need this. Anyway. We need, we need to get back to like, something more pure about why we all went into this because Yes. And visceral, because the other thing that occurred to me is like, wow, I never heard about this before, but it must be so tense to be at the Oscars,
1 (22m 46s):
Like horrible.
3 (22m 48s):
You're either tense about what you're wearing tense about whether or not you're going to win tense about what speech you're going to make tense about what I noticed people. I feel like I could read people's body language when they were dissatisfied with where their seat was. You know, I just felt like everybody was, everybody comes to that night with who are you going to tell me? I am. Oh,
1 (23m 10s):
Right. That's right. And am
3 (23m 11s):
I, is that going to be acceptable to me? And it's a very narrow definition of what's.
1 (23m 17s):
Yes. Well, yeah. It's like, yeah, it's teeny, it's impossible. It's impossible. So I think you got to go, like, I now know why, like Frances McDormand goes and she's like completely stoned or like, or like just crazy people do because it's too much pressure. That's the other thing I'm real I saw was with the, with the will Smith thing, was that the amount of, like you said, tenseness, you know, the amount of pressure they, everyone looks like ready to pop. They're so anxious and stressed out and understandably it's. So I, I know now why people don't go to those things. Like I always thought it would be so fun, but now that I'm looking at it, I'm like, that seems like a lot of work and also real tense,
3 (24m 3s):
Real, real tense, but that doesn't take away from the beautiful, you know, I heard some beautiful speeches and overall I think overall I hope everything that happened at the Oscars is indicative of like things moving in a better and better direction, but we're also very far away from a lot of things, a whole lot of things.
1 (24m 26s):
And, and then there's this, you know, and we don't really have time to talk about it this time. We're going to talk about next time maybe, but like this whole thing of like, okay, so a lot of, you know, like who gets to have a take on what went down? So like, people are, are saying, you know, I've seen members of the black community saying, you know, like no white people should talk about this. And, and frankly, I didn't feel the need to talk about it as a half white, half Latino or as a human. I also, my, I thought, I thought, oh, my framework is I come from a place of like, we're all traumatized. So like, that's what I, and I'm trained in that. And that's what I can chime in about if somebody asks my goddamn opinion, like you and I ask each other's opinion, but nobody's asking my goddamn opinion.
1 (25m 13s):
So I don't keep my mouth shut. If you want to ask me what I think, then we talk about it on our podcast. You know what I mean? But like, I don't need a platform Twitter to talk about will Smith and Chris rock, they, plenty of people are doing that
3 (25m 25s):
Where people
1 (25m 26s):
Covered
3 (25m 27s):
It's covered. It's well-covered yeah. Oh, I just have a very quick update about my fascination with those tick talks with the, the women and
1 (25m 36s):
They're getting ready and the coming home,
3 (25m 38s):
I found out they're all infomercials
1 (25m 44s):
For the products in there for all the products.
3 (25m 47s):
Yeah.
1 (25m 48s):
So it's actually nothing about there. They don't really do that.
3 (25m 52s):
I mean, who knows,
1 (25m 54s):
How did you find that out?
3 (25m 57s):
'cause my kids stole they're like, I mean, and they were, they weren't saying mom, you know, that's just infomercial. They were like, yeah, you can get all those products. If you just click on the thing you can see. And I was like, oh, so the whole thing is a commercial. And they were like, yeah, what did you think it was?
1 (26m 12s):
You're that it was a day in the life of a lovely lady with very many gadgets and outfit.
3 (26m 19s):
And it was just one of those moments like, oh, I, so
1 (26m 24s):
I have those all the time. I have those all where I'm like, oh, I'm truly an eater.
3 (26m 29s):
I'm truly so dumb. I deserve, I deserve to waste my money on these products and they don't want to get my money completely work. I did in the end, only buy one thing. Oh, you
1 (26m 42s):
Actually did buy what you
3 (26m 43s):
Buy. I bought it a egg cooker. You can, you can hardball eggs in the microwave.
1 (26m 50s):
Well, that's pretty good. Okay.
3 (27m 9s):
Today on the contest we were talking to Catherine Scarborough. Catherine is an award-winning New York city-based actress and writer. She got her MFA in acting from the new school for drama. And she's also trained with the Moscow art theater and the people's improv theater. She has a lot of interesting stories and she has a fantastic web series called <inaudible>, which you can find on her website, Catherine scarborough.com. So please enjoy our conversation with Catherine Scarborough.
6 (27m 51s):
Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Okay.
3 (27m 53s):
So congratulations, Catherine, Catherine Scarborough, you survived theater school and your first new-school alone. So I I'm really intrigued by the way, by your intro here, he says, can be interesting conversation. Does that mean you had a mixed bag of a time?
7 (28m 10s):
Well, first of all, thank you. I, yes, it was definitely a mixed bag. It's an interesting program. Yeah. I mean, I, the training, my professors were really great. I had a lot, I really am happy with my artistic training. It was the business side of things
1 (28m 32s):
That
7 (28m 33s):
I, we went out into the world completely unprepared.
1 (28m 36s):
Okay. When did you graduate? You look so young.
7 (28m 39s):
20 13, 20 13
1 (28m 44s):
Is recent. So we graduated and fricking long, long time ago. So, so like, like, yeah, nineties. So, so at 2013, the new school didn't really prepare you business wise. And I mean,
3 (28m 59s):
When did these people get,
1 (29m 0s):
When are we going to get prepared,
7 (29m 4s):
Please schools do it, to be honest with you. I think that if it's a name, if it's a school that you can walk into an audition room and they're like, oh, you're a Yalie. You're NYU. It's a different story. But like, to give you an idea, and I got my MFA, it was not a BFA program. It was an MFA program when we were getting ready or we had done our showcase maybe. And then we were doing, you know, reaching out to agents and managers, this spreadsheet that we were given, some of the people on it were dead
1 (29m 44s):
Or in jail or in jail
7 (29m 46s):
Dead. I mean, one of my classmates came back, oh
1 (29m 48s):
My God, these people,
7 (29m 52s):
They were like, I'm sorry, this person has passed away.
1 (29m 60s):
That's
3 (29m 60s):
Crazy.
1 (30m 1s):
I really, I really applaud that. Person's tenacity. They were like trying to get repped by a ghost. They will do like, I'll take anyone, give me the ghost, even
3 (30m 10s):
The ghost ghosted me. Okay. So, so you weren't prepared, but what about the straight training side of it? Like
7 (30m 20s):
You,
3 (30m 21s):
Presumably you went there saying I'm going to be a famous actress. Give me all I need to know. Did they fit the bill in that way?
7 (30m 30s):
Yes and no. I mean, it was, you know, again, once again a mixed bag, I had some fantastic professors. I, I was lucky enough to study with Ron Leibman
1 (30m 42s):
Who he, more,
7 (30m 44s):
Ron originated the role of Roy Cohn in angels in America. He was Rachel Green's dad on friends. He and studying with him was really a gift. I mean, and he, you know, I mean, he had done what you want to do as an actor in his career. He had Tony, can I curse? I really, You know, he had a fucking Tony. So there was no, I think sometimes with acting teachers, there is an ego part of it where they, I don't know, they want to mold you or they're frustrated and they haven't done what they want, but he had done everything that he wanted to do.
7 (31m 27s):
And so really he was just in it because he cared about young actors and he was tough, but he wanted you to be the best artists you could possibly be. And so that was such a gift that there were lots of professors that I really had a wonderful experience with there. Casey Biggs was my classical technique. Like Shakespeare professor. He's wonderful. He was, he's a star Trek actor. If you don't know, the Saifai world gets a lots of Shakespearian actors because they have to
3 (31m 58s):
Make
7 (31m 58s):
Sense. You know, they have to take this ridiculous material and make
1 (32m 3s):
And make it accessible.
7 (32m 6s):
Right.
1 (32m 7s):
So for people that don't know, obviously the new schools in New York, did you audition? How was that?
7 (32m 14s):
Yes, I auditioned. So it, yes, it's in New York city. It used to be where the actors studio was. And then there was this gray Bradley Cooper went to my grad school at the time that the actor's studio was still attached. And then there was this big schism actor studio went to pace. And then the new school had its own drama program run by Patty lipomas brother bobble poem. So he was the Dean
1 (32m 44s):
Of the school at your school?
7 (32m 46s):
At my school. Yeah. Bobby Lou. And so, yeah. So the audition process was I actually, they asked you to prepare a scene. So you had to find a scene partner and do a scene rather than just a monologue, which was cool. So I had a friend of mine come with him. This is funny. And a friend of mine come and do a scene with me. I did a scene from a play that I hate, but that I felt like would make me appear marketable. I did a scene.
1 (33m 17s):
Yeah.
7 (33m 17s):
I did a scene from fat pig, which,
1 (33m 19s):
Oh, no,
7 (33m 21s):
But Hey, I got into school with it. So
1 (33m 23s):
Yeah. You know what I always say about that play? Like I actually know Neil LaBute and that guy's a Dick. So, I mean, I've met him. I wouldn't say know him. He directed did he direct, he directed Wicker man, that my boss Nick cage, was it the second time UN he's got problems. He's a, he's like a Mormon, he's got problems with his own body size. I think as a, as a plus sized dude, he's real weird. He's real weird. But anyway, I always say about fat pig. It's like, I am always rooting obviously for the actress that takes on that role.
1 (34m 6s):
Especially as a plus sized lady, I'm like, yeah, you go. And, and we think, God, I hope we're writing better plays in that, but you know what? It's not the actresses deal that is doing it so good for you. So you did a scene from that pig with your friends,
7 (34m 22s):
And then he got asked to audition for the school himself and he got into,
1 (34m 30s):
I'm glad you both did because you didn't.
7 (34m 33s):
I know it would have been nuts. So, so we do the scene and then we find out what happens then is something called callback weekend. And I actually, I have to say, I think that the new school at that time, because the training has completely changed at the school now, since I've graduated. But their audition process was the best that I ever experienced because, and by the way, I auditioned for graduate schools, like on three different occasions. And when I auditioned for the new school, it was like the last gasp. It was the only school I applied to that season. Like I was like, I'm done with this. I'm going to open it.
1 (35m 11s):
No one, no one accepted you the first times. Right. Mad at them.
7 (35m 17s):
It was really awful. But are you
1 (35m 19s):
Fucking kidding me? Okay. All right. So they, you were like, fuck it. This is the last hurrah. I don't get it here. Okay.
7 (35m 25s):
Yeah. So the only school that I applied to that season, so you do your scene and then they have something called callback weekend where it's a whole weekend. You go and it's a surprise. You don't know what's going to happen. You go. And they have, because part of the core of the training and the new school is having playwrights directors and actors create new work together, creating your own work is a big part or was at that time a big part of the training program. And so you had to put together, we were put in groups and we put together a short play in 24 hours. And that was our, our callback.
3 (36m 6s):
I mean, that sounds really stressful, but also really
7 (36m 8s):
Fun. It was so fun.
1 (36m 10s):
Did you write the play,
7 (36m 12s):
The playwrights? Did they
1 (36m 14s):
Right? Yeah.
7 (36m 15s):
Yeah. At some point too, I did have to do two monologues and I cannot remember when that happened. I think, I think, you know what it was. Okay. It was callback weekend. I had to go and do my two monologues and do like a movement workshop. And then you found out, okay, you've made it now. You're the last round and you're doing a 24 hour play. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was really fun to be honest with you. It was good.
3 (36m 42s):
Yeah. I bet it was. So what about for undergrad? Were you also doing theater and under?
7 (36m 48s):
I did, but I didn't get a BFA. I got a BA at UMass at the university of Massachusetts Amherst. They actually have a beautiful theater program there. I had a great experience with them.
3 (37m 1s):
Yeah. And what was the impetus to go to grad school?
7 (37m 6s):
I had always, I mean, since I was a small child, like four years old, I've wanted to be an actress. I always, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm a theater nerd. Like I always wanted conservatory training. My family historically was not supportive of this. I really wanted to get a BFA and they didn't want me to do it. And so I ended up going to, you know, regular school, regular school and just getting a BA but studying theater. And so I had always wanted to have the experience of conservatory training.
7 (37m 45s):
After, after I got my BA at UMass, then I did a, like a training program with the Moscow art theater kind of connected. Cause I had applied for art. Didn't get in. But then the Moscow art theater reached out to me and they were like, Hey, we do this summer program. And we also do a winter program in Moscow. So I did both of those things.
1 (38m 9s):
Awesome. Yeah. They tell you my art story.
7 (38m 12s):
Oh yes, please.
1 (38m 13s):
Dude. I was a fucking idiot. So I, I was at taking a leave of absence from the theater school at DePaul. And I was at, I was at Shakespeare and company on the east coast. I was working there, but anyway, I thought, oh, this is a great time to audition for Harvard.
7 (38m 28s):
What?
1 (38m 30s):
I don't know what I was thinking. Like DePaul was fine. Like Harvard, like air chief was actually going to be better. But anyway, I mean, it's all the same once you get there. But so I thought, let me just audition. Sure. I had, usually I have two monologues. I had one monologue. Sure. I was also young and you didn't
3 (38m 49s):
Read the,
1 (38m 52s):
I did not understand the assignment. So I show up at a party and I'm do my monologue. And it went really well, even though it was probably a totally ridiculous monologue. It was above my head and the person the woman goes, that's great. And then I just stopped. Right. Cause I didn't have another monologue. And I said, and they said, do you have anything else you could show me? And I literally said no, but I could tell you some jokes.
3 (39m 21s):
See, I know it's a great idea. I think that was a great, I mean maybe he didn't know her that well, but I like,
1 (39m 28s):
And it was the truth and I, and they, she looked at, it was, it was, I did not get in there and I think they were all like what? She was like, what I, it was, she wasn't that I was on drugs. I wasn't, but she probably thought this child is on drugs. Like that's the only answer. So anyway, I don't know. But also they closed so no longer around. So you, okay. So you, so you did, you went to Russia?
7 (39m 51s):
I did. I went to Moscow and I studied like one of my teachers that I stayed with her father was Stanislavski student. I mean, it was crazy
1 (40m 2s):
My, oh,
3 (40m 3s):
Tell us everything about that program. It sounds interesting.
7 (40m 6s):
And I mean, considering what's going on, it's so sad in the world, but I always will hold my experience with the Stanislavski summer school and with it's my hot mess, Moscow art theater, very, very close because you know, I think as actors, NSX and students, we are delicate creatures and our confidence in ourselves and in our instrument and in our own talent is very, very delicate at all times. You know what I mean? And it really studying with them really made me fall in love with the theater and ma built me up and made me feel like, oh, this is what I'm meant to do with my life. And it just was because again, these, you know, the Russians, they, they don't give a shit.
7 (40m 53s):
They're all about the art. And they care about you as a, an artist. And
1 (40m 59s):
Did they not? Can I just say, were they not? Were they inclusive about body sizes? Oh, see, this is my problem. It's like what kid? Anybody fucking, not even in Moscow.
7 (41m 11s):
I mean, listen over there. It's definitely. But what I will say is my experience in classes and stuff, they just expected me to do it, you know, like,
1 (41m 21s):
Right.
7 (41m 21s):
My, my Grotowski admire hold biomechanics teachers. They were like, okay, now you will do backbend. You know? And I would just wouldn't do it. And it was like, okay, Catherine, now you will. You know what I mean? And so, and I, you know, I, we had this one teacher who re actually recently passed away. He was the most wonderful man. His name was Misha and Misha taught Michael checkoff technique, which I had never studied before I studied with them. And he was a lunatic, but like in the best, most beautiful way he would do this, this game with us called I love myself where, where he would have us run around the room, like crazy seagull.
7 (42m 10s):
And then while we're running around the room, like crazy seagulls, he is humming the theme to the godfather. So he goes,
1 (42m 18s):
It's fantastic. It's like what I did in my day program in therapy.
7 (42m 24s):
So he's going up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, and then he'd clap his hands and go number one. And you had to hug yourself and he goes, I love myself. And then he'd clap again. And then you have to run around again and he'd go bump up, Clap number two. And you'd hug someone and he'd go, I love my friends and Cutest. And like, he, I don't know, it was, it was a lovely experience. And I got to do Google. I was in a Google little, oh, Hey, I was in the inspector general. And I just felt seen by these teachers
3 (43m 5s):
Randomly, I don't know what the connection is, but they're in my town, which only has 30,000 people in it. There's a Michael checkoff like festival. Oh, I don't know if he lived here or I I'll have to look into it more Connecticut.
7 (43m 24s):
Is that because my grad school, Michael checkoff technique, professor Ragnar fry dog does a maybe
1 (43m 34s):
Greta. Steve. I bet it's gotta be connected. Ragnar and fry. Duncan
7 (43m 38s):
Connect,
1 (43m 39s):
Cover all connected.
7 (43m 40s):
Yeah. It might be. It might be there. It's somewhere up. I don't know. It might be,
1 (43m 46s):
Are you in New York city?
7 (43m 47s):
I am. I am in the city. Okay.
3 (43m 51s):
Okay. So you didn't feel prepared once you graduated. So what did you do?
7 (43m 56s):
Well, one thing that the new school, like I said, that they did, that was great. Was they taught us that we have to make our own work, which I think is true. I mean, I think, you know, and you know, I just been through this experience where I had to plumb all of this personal trauma to, you know, being in front of your friends to be an actor. I don't know. And there was a crisis in my family and I ended up using it and applied for an artist residency with Mabu mines. I don't know if you guys Mabee mind says
1 (44m 33s):
I don't, what
7 (44m 34s):
Is that? So Mabu mines is a theater company. That's been in New York city since like the sixties, seventies. And they're very experimental run by who has since passed away Ruth Mela check and Joanne Akalaitis and Lee brewer. Who's also, so they they're really into cookie, like experimental crazy theater. And so I got an artist residency with them right out of graduate school. And for a year developed my own place,
3 (45m 5s):
Something where you had to write a proposal about what you would be working on there. And, and you're, so you wrote something that was informed by a terrible thing that happened to you.
7 (45m 15s):
Okay. And so, yeah, I wrote a few
3 (45m 17s):
Minds saying anything about,
7 (45m 21s):
Because I wrote a play. So yeah. So I come from a very chaotic family. There's just all kinds of craziness. Always my father, who is much older, he was a doctor for nearly like 50 years, maybe 50 years. And he had this huge practice in this like shitty Podunk, back ass words, town and Florida. And he's very eccentric. He doesn't make friends, he's not politically savvy and was employing really ne'er do Wells to run his office.
7 (46m 4s):
And one of his nurses was writing counterfeit prescriptions
1 (46m 10s):
For opioids,
7 (46m 11s):
Opioids. So the, the, what is it? The DEA shut down his office and conducted an investigation for over a year while I'm in graduate school. This is going on. And then D couldn't get him on running a pill mill because he wasn't, but got him on insurance fraud, which I will tell you, actually, something that I do have done in the past no longer, but for a survival job, I've worked as a medical secretary. Every doctor concerns, insurance fraud and the
1 (46m 50s):
System, the system is set up for that. What are you
7 (46m 52s):
Talking about? So at the time, my 77, my in fact, my, was it my third year. Yeah. My third year of graduate school, my 77 year old father went to jail. Thank God he wasn't in there for very long, but we fought, he might be, he was held on half a billion dollars bail. Like it was insane how they went after him. And, you know, it's funny because I've been rethinking the project that I did because I was so fresh out of it. I essentially, I took because as he started me letters from jail, and then I realized he had been writing me letters since I, for like 20 years, he's a letter writer.
7 (47m 37s):
He himself is kind of insane. Like, he's, I love him, but he's, you know, and so anyway, I took all of that source material and I created a play out of it.
3 (47m 51s):
Wow. And, and I mean, presented for the public, right. Like people came to see it. How was it received?
7 (47m 58s):
I think it went really well. I mean, it was my first, you know, I, again, being unprepared, you know, coming out of graduate school, I didn't know a lot about promoting your own work, you know, I didn't know to write a press release and I didn't know to, but I did it with Mabu mines. And then I workshopped it in a few other places. I did it at Dixon place, which is another like incubator you're in the city. And then I did it in residency at the brick theater in Williamsburg. And that was, yeah, that was the last showing that I did
1 (48m 30s):
A solo show.
7 (48m 31s):
No, I had a hue. I unwisely had a huge cast. It was like nine all of us. Yeah. But it was like about because I'm from the south originally and it was about my family. And like the stories you tell yourself about your family versus reality versus very, yeah. It was, it was a great experience doing that. So
3 (48m 55s):
How have you continued to create your own work? I know you have a show, your own show, big girls. Is it called big girl?
7 (49m 1s):
It's called big girl. Yes, I, yeah. I really do enjoy writing and writing for myself. I think that, yeah, my experience has been more fruitful in writing for myself. Then, you know, the little parts you can get or, you know, yeah.
1 (49m 20s):
I want to let your, I just want to give you permission to let yourself off the hook for the publicizing of your thing. No, no. I need to tell you that I, when I did a solo show and it went to New York, I fucking paid a publicist $10,000 and they didn't do anything. So, so, so I'm just saying he, they didn't write a press release either and you were out $10,000. So was actually saying you saved $10,000. So you did good. Oh, wait. So Gina asked about like, yeah. So you have big girl is a, it's a, it's a show that is still is an ongoing, is it happening right? The second?
7 (49m 56s):
No, we, so we did. So the way big girl came around is that I started taking improv classes of all things. I hate improv, but I'm glad that I studied it. And I met my producers there in improv class. And I had written a play about body image and they came to see reading of it. And then we decided to do, let's do something together. We decided to write this web series. And so we, we worked on it from like 2018 through 2019.
7 (50m 37s):
And it's five short episodes. It's stories based on my life, but heightened about dating and just living as a plus sized woman in New York city, every episode is a different genre. So there's a clown episode, a black and white clown episode. That's episode three, which is my favorite of clowning is my favorite theatrical practice. I think I'm working on a clown show right now, actually, but clowning is my favorite. So what do you
3 (51m 7s):
Love about it? What do you love about coding?
7 (51m 10s):
I think that clowning is a way of celebrating your vulnerability and your ridiculousness. You know, I think that whatever makes you feel vulnerable is actually your superpower as a performer. It's the thing that people can see that connects us all to our, you know, terror of the abyss, right? And clowning is such a loving and gentle. Isn't the right word. It's, it's a very freeing way to just celebrate whatever is silly or weird about yourself. And if you can laugh at yourself, it gives the audience permission to laugh at themselves, you know, and it's also just really fun.
7 (51m 60s):
I, I have this beautiful clown professor, my clown, professor, Jean Taylor, she teaches at the Barrow group and that new school and over the pandemic, she reached out to some of us and was like, would you all like to do some zoom clown sessions? And let me tell you that saved my mental health, my like twice a month clown meeting it.
3 (52m 25s):
It was a picture of a clown school in zoom.
7 (52m 28s):
It is, I mean, we would just get into nos and we would do eccentric dance. And, you know, she would just have, she has something called go to my spot, which is like, as your clown, you find your spot. It's the whole thing. And, you know, we just made it work and it was, and we would create little, like a tubes as clowns that we would do for her. And it was, it's just, I just love it so much. It's just a, I don't know. It's like balm for the soul. It makes you feel joy.
3 (52m 59s):
And this is what happens when people feel left out of whatever's happening mainstream wise, as they go find a, like a little off shoot, you know, where, where any aspect of being different is is okay. Celebrated whatever. I mean, in a way it's like, okay, well, I guess that works out too, even though we'd like to be able to be included in mainstream stuff. Right.
1 (53m 21s):
Well, I feel like that's how all these theater companies that we adore love were made and then, you know, then it becomes something else that gets commercialized. And, but like, if you think about it, like a lot of, a lot of stuff in life, right. Comes from that. And like, I'm now writing feminist body horror. I know, I didn't even know that existed. It only happened because I just was like, okay, well maybe, maybe this. Okay. Fuck it. And then people are like, no, it's actually a genre. And I'm like, what? So like clowning was like, we can do this thing together and tell these stories. And people were like, oh yeah, that's good. And so then that it becomes a thing, you know, for years and years and years, so, okay.
1 (54m 4s):
So you, you, are you doing a clown show? Are you developing a solo clown show?
7 (54m 10s):
I have a co clown and a director and we are putting together a clown burlesque show.
1 (54m 19s):
I love that.
3 (54m 21s):
That sounds amazing.
7 (54m 23s):
It's going to be, I'm really excited. Yeah. It's going to be, we're just at the beginnings, like applying to festivals and things like that. And we're just about to start real rehearsals and
1 (54m 35s):
Oh, is it a scripted, like how does that work in terms of like, what, how what's your process like for us? So I don't know why I keep pushing you to do solo work. I keep asking if everything you do, I feel like I really need you to do a solo show. Apparently
7 (54m 46s):
I should do a solo show. I haven't before this
1 (54m 50s):
Do what you want. I just said, so it's a solo show. So you're doing your clown burlesque show. How do you write, is it scripted? Tell me about that.
7 (54m 60s):
That is a very good question. We are figuring that out because clown involves a lot of, I don't want to call it improvisation, but impulse it's like, you have to let your in order for it, to be honest, right? The clown clowns are my teacher put it this way. They're like cretins. They're very, they're there. Everything is very simple and they're idiots, but experts at the same time and you have to leave room for the unexpected. So our tactic right now is we're going to have a, a loose, an outline, like beats that we want to hit, let's say, but then to leave room for our clowns to play and do what they want.
3 (55m 47s):
I'm kind of curious about this thing you said about improv, because I also have the feeling that I hate improv, but only to say that I hate doing it, but actually if I was good at it, I wouldn't hate it. So what do you hate about it?
7 (56m 2s):
I am also not good at it. I get too, too in my I'm just not good at it. I get too in my head. I'm like, why are there so many rules? Why can't I ask questions? Why can't I just come up here and have fun? Why does there have to be a, what does the Harold, why do I have to go back to see the,
3 (56m 22s):
I mean, think that like, this is all just because a bunch of guys made up improv, right? Like what would it have been like if it was a bunch of women who, who developed the art,
1 (56m 35s):
It would be clowning and it would be, it would be something more beautiful. I mean, I just think the culture of improv is such garbage and I happen to love improv. I love, love, love it, but I love it because I'm scared because I do feel like you can do no wrong and improv, especially at like an improv audition for commercials and shit are my jam because there's no things to memorize and, and, and to be serious actors and not fuck anything up, but that does crossover into yeah. It, if you're in a culture and improv like school, the culture is there a lot of rules and there are a lot of stuff.
1 (57m 16s):
And also to be fair, you know, to be, or to be honest, there's a lot of drinking. There's a lot of drugging. It's just not my scene. And it's also really like a 22 year old white dudes see
3 (57m 25s):
Very fresh, very fat frat life,
1 (57m 28s):
But okay. So go ahead.
7 (57m 30s):
Wait, where was
1 (57m 31s):
I? Oh, no, it's me. I was just saying, go ahead. Either one of you. Cause
3 (57m 36s):
Well, I, I, I can't actually bring us back to what we were talking about before, but I can ask you, does new school do a showcase at the end? Can you tell us about it?
7 (57m 48s):
Sure. So it was, we did our showcase at playwrights horizons. We worked on our scenes for a semester and there were a lot of us in my class. So I got into graduate school, like at a time when people like right after the oh eight recession. So tons of people were applying to graduate school and they let 35 actors into our class. And so that was a big, obviously a big issue all through my graduate experience was what do we do with all of these kids?
7 (58m 36s):
There were, I think at least a good 10 people in my class who had no business. Like they just shouldn't have. And there were people who graduated from the most expensive. The, my school debt is so ridiculous. It's imaginary. There were people who graduated from my program who never stepped foot on a main stage.
1 (58m 56s):
We, why is it so fricking expensive? What's happening?
7 (58m 60s):
I it's the new school. I don't know. But yeah, it's the most expensive,
1 (59m 5s):
Never we're up. We've heard this before, by the way, at other schools Where the people never, there were people that graduated, maybe not an MFA, but like, there are people that graduated that were never in a show and I'm like, okay,
7 (59m 19s):
I would have, yeah. I,
1 (59m 22s):
Why weren't they at a show? They never got cast or
7 (59m 24s):
They didn't get cast.
1 (59m 26s):
I give him like a pity part. Like you're going to be Cinderella's step sister. And the,
7 (59m 31s):
I mean, they would be like in the chorus of something
1 (59m 34s):
That would have been me. That would have been me. I know it would've been
3 (59m 38s):
Me too. Me too, but was it for agents? And the showcase was for agents.
7 (59m 42s):
Yeah. Agents and managers. And I did two scenes from bridesmaids because bridesmaid said recently come out. So I did the airplane scene with, and then I did her, her monologue at the end about being in the CIA. I just love. And it probably wasn't wise of me to choose scenes from what, but I was like, fuck it. This is what I wanna do. I worship Melissa McCarthy. I think that she's I, if I ever met her, I would absolutely lose my mind. I just think she be,
3 (1h 0m 13s):
I think that was the perfect thing to do because right. Because the, the, the thing that bothered, I are always talking about that we never got is that we were supposed to think of ourselves as, you know, to be crass, like a product and what, you know, so what is our brand and what, you know, and we never did that, but that is what is required. So why is it not good to have done the Melissa McCarthy?
7 (1h 0m 36s):
I guess maybe I think you're right. I maybe I felt like I should have shown more range.
1 (1h 0m 42s):
They're not looking for range. Let me tell you something. They're looking to look at you seriously and now be in LA. I can really tell you looking at, oh, oh, she knows. She, she, she knows that we think she's going to be like the Melissa McCarthy character. Great. So let us just all get on the, the Melissa McCarthy bus with her, and then we can sell her that way. And maybe we'll all make a lot of money and be rich. Now look, I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying it was smart in terms of a business move. And please tell me you got an agent. Did you get an agent and a manager?
7 (1h 1m 15s):
Ah, I, I got one agent who freelanced with me for a minute and he sent me on two auditions in three years.
1 (1h 1m 31s):
Okay. All right.
7 (1h 1m 32s):
So
1 (1h 1m 33s):
Not good, not good.
7 (1h 1m 35s):
And that agent, I mean, I,
1 (1h 1m 38s):
What,
7 (1h 1m 39s):
He, it just,
8 (1h 1m 41s):
Eh,
7 (1h 1m 44s):
I'm worried because why?
1 (1h 1m 46s):
Okay. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. This is not about him. This is about your reaction. You don't have to, obviously don't say the name, but this is about your experience of what it was like to be that age and work with is someone in the industry. So tell it now.
7 (1h 2m 2s):
Okay. So from that point, yes, from that point of view, you know, number one, it, you know, I, I had one really solid audition. I didn't book it, but it was my first big audition in a big room. And I went in and I was prepared and I killed it. And I remember, oh, at PA, oh, oh wait, okay. It's back. Oh, you're
1 (1h 2m 24s):
Fine.
7 (1h 2m 25s):
Okay. Like froze for a
1 (1h 2m 26s):
Second. That's okay.
7 (1h 2m 29s):
I went in and it was Judy Henderson's office. She's a casting director. I killed it. And I had them all laughing. And I remember I walked out and I heard the director say, oh, that was really good.
1 (1h 2m 43s):
Yes.
7 (1h 2m 44s):
So that was such a win right out of an acting program. You know, I didn't get a call back. I didn't book it, but it was such a great, you know, experience. But then after that, and I emailed my agent to say, Hey, this was so great. This is what the people said, send, thank you, notes, all of that. But he like had this Facebook group for the members of the agency and he would have these mixers, Which, and I went to one and it made me so uncomfortable because it was like him. And then a bunch of like women, you know what I mean?
1 (1h 3m 23s):
Yeah. It's gross. That's gross. I don't know who you are, agents. So it's not a personal thing, but also that's gross.
7 (1h 3m 29s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 3m 30s):
It's weird. That's weird.
7 (1h 3m 32s):
And like also something that made me super uncomfortable would be that there would on the Facebook group, he would put up these statuses, like, you know, a word to the wise, never write an email to an agent like this deducted that dah, dah, and don't show up to an audition doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just in my head, I'm like, why don't you go get me an audition instead of spending your time? And like, there is no roadmap for young actors. None of us know what the fuck we're doing.
3 (1h 4m 4s):
Well, let's do mystify something right now for people who haven't gone through this yet. Why do some agents not get auditions for their clients?
1 (1h 4m 16s):
Oh, I know. I feel like, I feel like for what my knowledge is of working in casting and then also working as a writer and an actor, is that agents. Okay. So like, this is my understanding. All agents get the same breakdowns, right? And a lot of times for better, for worse they're thinking is I need to, I can't possibly do everything on this breakdown. So who are the people I know that are gonna, for whatever reason are top of mind that are gonna, that have a better, good chance of booking these things. And then they sort of gravitate towards that. And then a lot of people who aren't, don't look a certain way for whatever, get pushed to the side.
1 (1h 5m 2s):
And then I think we're also not as actors at our schools and in the world taught how to have a relationship with an agent that is on equal footing so that you stay top. This is what I teach my kids at the theater school, which is like how to build a relationship or get out of one. When you feel like it's not on equal footing where you can't, you don't feel like you can call or email the agent and say, Hey, I'm feeling like I'm not going out. Is there something that we can do together? Because we're so scared of the agent. We never make those, but I am. I think that is what happens.
1 (1h 5m 43s):
And then the fear begets fear. And then you just never hear from them again. Then they drop you or whatever. So it's a matter. So that's what happens. And, and agents, a lot of times, like the rest of us are traumatized and hurt and scared. And, and it's easy to take that shit out on younger people.
3 (1h 6m 3s):
So it's not what I was thinking. You were going to say, which is that if the agent is unknown, they literally cannot get their client. Okay. It's not that,
1 (1h 6m 15s):
I mean, I feel like they, I feel like S H certain agents have better relationships than others with casting, but everyone gets the same breakdowns. It's, it's a, it's a common document. So anyone, if we, if you, and I said, now we're an agent. We would get those breakdowns and we could start submitting people. And if you send a kick ass letter that says, Hey, Catherine is perfect for this. Look at our shots. Please see her, they'll see her because they want, Cassie wants to meet new, new, fresh faces that are kick ass. Like that's their jam. So, yeah, it's a matter of top of mind. And
3 (1h 6m 49s):
Well, since we're on the topic, I don't know. You mentioned this thing about getting a good relationship with your agent CA well, so Kevin, do you have an agent now?
7 (1h 6m 57s):
I am. Now I am looking for representation right
3 (1h 7m 0s):
Now. All right. You're looking for representation. A lot of people who listen to this podcast are recent graduates from theater school. I have my only experience with an agent is I'm helped my son with his stuff. And so I'm, I have a relationship with his agent. I'm very scared of this person. And when he doesn't like something we did just on my stomach. So like, what, I mean, you know, what, what do you do and how do you have a good relationship with an agent? Because it seems like they're all the hassle.
1 (1h 7m 31s):
No, no, they, they, it does seem like that. They're not all assholes, but I feel like a lot of them are, are scary. So inherent and Gina, Gina talks about this and Catherine, I want to know your thoughts. So, so we talk about the idea that like inherent in this industry is a pear is a patriarchal and like a, a status, right. Triangle, whatever hierarchy. So that creates a dynamic where the people that have, are seemingly having the more power are, are, are a little bit mean. It can be a little bit mean. So Catherine, how do you think, I guess my question for you would be like, what is your, maybe your experience with how to work with that and what are you looking to do differently this time when you have an agent, I guess, for the youngsters
7 (1h 8m 15s):
Listening? So my experience with them being mean, Or I just think that there is a, in my experience, there has been a feeling of being dismissed perhaps of, you know, yeah, yeah. You know, I do a lot of in the past, I've done a lot of there's this company here in the city called one-on-one, which there's another one that's called, like actor's connection where you can go and it, it kinda sucks. It's pay to play and you pay like a little fee to do a class with a casting director or an agent, or, you know, an opportunity for like a 10, 15 minute meeting with an agent.
7 (1h 9m 2s):
And I have met some success with that, you know, in the past, I don't necessarily, I feel a little morally repugnant about pay to play. You know, this is such a, I mean, the other thing along with the hierarchy of this industry is that it's predatory, you know, it's very predatory on the hopes and dreams of, you know, young actors. And so I have had tons of experience going into auditions for things. And, you know, it's like, oh, you have to pay to do this, or you have to it. And it's like, okay, well, fuck you, bye. I'm not going to pay you to work. But, and then what was the second part of your question about, oh, what am I looking to do differently?
7 (1h 9m 45s):
I mean, I think the thing is right, I'm a character actress. I'm a misfit, certainly in the industry. And I need to find someone who really gets me, gets my work. You know, I want to find representation that isn't necessarily trying to, and this is perhaps an unrealistic dream, but I, I would like to find representation that that gets my voice as an artist, and doesn't necessarily want to pigeonhole me. You know, for example, I will never, I'm very into body justice and fat liberation.
7 (1h 10m 30s):
I'm not gonna even say body positivity anymore because it's been co-opted by a skinny white women, but I will never make a weight loss, commercial that's not happening. And that might be a problem for a commercial agent who meets me, you know what I mean? And so I, so yeah, I, I would like to find a team who, who gets me and really, you know, wants to, wants to see me succeed in that, in the, in that way,
3 (1h 10m 59s):
This relates pause to our conversation earlier, just about contracting versus expanding. And I think that my mindset for certain, and maybe other people too, is like, you know, it's like kind of like how I used to be with boyfriends. If, just, if, if anybody likes me that I have to go with them because there's not going to be anybody else that likes me. Right. When in reality, It seems like the, the way to think about it is, oh, they need me because I know what I'm doing. And I have this look and I've seen people who look like me in this kind of thing. And there'll be lucky to find me because I can solve a problem for them.
3 (1h 11m 40s):
That's not how I've ever thought about it. I've thought about it. Like, I hope they pick me, but they probably won't. So if anybody shows me any attention, even if I have to pay for it, then the bus. Yeah.
1 (1h 11m 50s):
I mean, I think that's so right on. And I will say that. And I, I, I was that way for, and I still am obviously that way, but I found a team. I love my team, but it took me a very long time. And it took me to 40, I dunno, 44 to do that or 43. And it took me going in literally and saying, this is me, here's my body of work. I look like this. I want, I came in, I went in with a list of things in a piece of paper and what I brought to the table and what I expected from a relationship.
1 (1h 12m 35s):
And I had to be prepared that they were going to say, no, thank you. Like, this is crazy. Fuck you. But they didn't say that instead. They said, we, we support you. We've looked at your stuff. We believe in you. And we want to work with you. And that was all right. And then I found my person at that place. And when she left, I followed her. So it really is about relationships, but it's like, it takes a long check. My therapist, this, it takes a long time to do the work. Like it is not an overnight thing for most of us, especially those of us with bigger bodies or different or misfits, whatever you want to call it. However you want to say other, it takes a long time to find your people.
1 (1h 13m 19s):
I don't know anyone that is sort of othered that finds their people immediately, because that's why we're misfits. Like that's part of the deal is that we don't find our people. So I don't know. I also want to hook you up with my, like my Asian has an office in, in New York. So I will, I will see about that. So, oh my God. That's wonderful. Thank you. I mean, I'm happy to help, but the true thing is like knowing what I think you've said, which is like, we really, when I try, when we talk about branding, right? I try to impart to my students and to myself that like branding is actually not about what you look like. It is in the sense that we live in a fucked up society.
1 (1h 14m 1s):
But Brandy, what I mean is inside and out. Can you stand behind your own product Regardless of what those fuckers say? Yup. Can you, can you, at the end of the day, go, no, thank you. Like you're saying no, thank you. I'm going to go in another direction. Are you willing to walk away?
3 (1h 14m 21s):
You have to. It's a mindset change from I'm letting I'm letting anybody abandon me too. I will never abandon myself, but I might've been in these other people.
2 (1h 14m 39s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <inaudible> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina Kalichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.