It really goes down
to the mindset of that
every individual child has the ability
to their biggest potential
and really making sure that they see
each child and each student
as having the strengths
and the abilities to achieve
what they're able
to and making sure
that they support a system
that allows and enables
educators to do that for them
Welcome to Disruption Now!
I'm your host, the
moderator, Rob Richardson.
With me today, we're doing
We have to guests
you know,
we normally don't do two guests,
but got to disrupt it a little bit.
So we will today.
My first guest is Ryan MacDonald,
who is senior program associate
with the Council of Chief
State School Officers.
Also with me is
a vice president from Knowledge Works.
She's the vice president of Impact
and Improvement with Knowledge
Works and is based in Boston.
But, you know, we have a big Cincinatti
presence here, too,
so we're honored to
have them both on the show.
Welcome, both of you.
Thank you for having me.
We're looking forward
to the conversation.
No looking forward
to having you and really
talking about how we can
improve education.
It's the one of the most important things
that we do in our society. And
we need to constantly
innovate, constantly improve.
And so I'm always interested
and I know our listeners
are always interested in the innovation
that's happening within the space
and how we can improve it
to really impact more lives.
And so just honored to have you both on.
I know you are both kind of
co collaborating on a project.
If you can talk about
a little bit about what you
what you two are doing together
and what you see
as the vision going forward for that.
I'll start with you Rebecca.
Sure.
So Ryan and I came together almost six
or seven years ago
now in response to something that
both of our organizations,
we're hearing in different
parts of the world
where more and more folks
were starting to pay attention
to the research on
how students actually
learn, what motivates them,
what engages them,
and what we were calling
student centered learning.
And educators and innovators
kind of at that cutting edge were saying,
oh, we love this, but what is the this
what does it look like?
And at the same time,
Ryan's organization,
which focuses on the chiefs,
so the systems level, the folks in
each of the states were saying, well,
if we want to support this,
what would the policy be?
What would the regulation be?
And because it was
it was pretty brand new.
Again, this was starting 10 years ago.
So our organizations came together
in about seven years ago
to try to develop
a set of what we've called
educator competencies,
so that groups of educators, school
districts, states
that are trying to move in
this more transformative
direction, have a roadmap,
have a set of ways of saying, oh,
this is what it means
to truly be learner
centered, to truly build
collaboration systems, schools
that are meeting the learner
where they need and are helping
point them towards the future
of of where they want to go.
And the reason we're
kind of here and back, you know,
we said it seven years ago.
We just came out with a whole
refresh of the competencies.
So maybe I'll kick it to Ryan
to talk about why we thought
this was the time now
and kind of what we built into
the new version and
why we're really excited
to talk about it.
Yeah, thanks, Rebecca.
Yeah, I think it was almost two years ago
we came back together to reexamine
kind of what had happened
with the educator competencies.
First, to really just understand
we had released them at that point
around five years ago
and just wanted to know, like,
how have they been used in the field,
how the educators and communities
been able to utilize them
and able to help their transformation
towards a more student centered approach.
But then also,
we had an understanding that the field
had begun to focus and understand
the importance of directly
talking about equity
and the importance
of approaching education
through an equitable lens.
So we wanted to make sure
to go back and look,
how can we pull out
and make sure that
equities at the forefront.
I think in the original copy
it was there.
But nonetheless,
I think you were looking at it
through a fully equitable lens.
You might not be able
to see it at the forefront.
So we wanted to make sure
that we brought that up
in the in the work.
And then the third
just wanted to understand
how can we better
support educators
in the system, in the field
to utilize them in a more
and more actionable ways.
So thinking about whether or other ways
we can package and put the
companies together
to provide a more usable
resource for the field.
So we went through a process over
two years of doing some intense
stakeholder engagement
and doing bunches of focus groups
with a wide variety of stakeholders
and including teachers, educators, folks
that have used the document itself
previously, folks
that hadn't before state leaders,
but then also really equity and
civil rights oriented
organizations and individuals
who could really help
elevate that equity within the document
and also learners themselves,
the students that are
actually experiencing
this type of teaching
and learning to make sure
that we're portraying and putting forth
what what do they want
to experience in their learning
and make sure that their voices
are in the document.
And so in October,
we were able to kind of
culminate that with
a release of the new refresh,
educate our competencies
to hopefully be able to continue
to provide this field support
and thinking through
kind of what is that,
particularly for a team of educators
and school buildings,
and then support the broader system
to ensure that the
system aligns and our team
what they want to do,
that types of teaching and learning.
So how are we defining equity
and how and you know,
because we equity is a it's a good term,
but it's it's very difficult
sometimes when you are
when you have equity.
And then I think it's
even that much harder
to make it part of the culture. So
how are you guys going about that?
Because it's it's
much easier said than done.
Hundred percent.
And it's one of those
kind of learnings
that we did between
those two versions in that first version.
We put lots of good stuff in there,
but we actually realized
we never defined equity.
We just as as Ryan said,
like if you are already equity minded,
maybe you would see it
in the new version.
What we did is we adapted
the National Equity Project's definition
because they had already
they've done such amazing
work in this field for so long.
And they have a specific definition
where they look at
equity specifically
through an education lens.
So that's kind of was our starting point.
But then what we did from there was
we looked at all of the specific
skills, attributes, mindsets
that then could fit under that,
because just because
you have sort of a high
a high level definition doesn't
necessarily tell educators, well,
what do I do on a day to day?
And so that's kind of
what's built into the
competencies themselves.
And so what we did in this version
is we actually coded them.
So in the paper version,
there are the downloadable version,
there's little tags,
and then the digital version,
you can search just on that.
So it's really what you want to know is
how can I be learner
centered and equity minded?
You can kind of toggle it
in our interactive version
and you can see the competencies
that just focus on that.
And just I just found it.
I can't I can't recite it by heart.
But what we
the definition from national equity
projects that we use
is that educational equity
means that each child receives
what they need to develop
their unlimited academic
and social potential.
And working towards
equity in schools involves ensuring
equally high outcomes
for all participants
in the system, removing
the predictability of success or failure
that correlates with any social,
economic or cultural factor,
interrupting equity in equitable
practices, examining biases,
creating inclusive,
multicultural school
environments, and discovering
and cultivating unique gifts, talents
and interest of each
and every member
of that learning community.
That's a long definition
no longer moved everybody in academics.
That's why I don't have it memorized.
Yeah, you should look it up in the paper.
I knew we had done it. Right.
But, you know, and it's it's
one of the things that we both are
proud of and get criticized
for in the confidentially
is we are really thorough.
There's a lot in those competencies.
It's a big, deep, rich document.
But part of what we've tried to do
is break it down
so that there's lots
and lots of different ways,
different educators
at different parts of their journey
and different roles can use them.
So you don't have to
sort of start on page one
and go all the way to the end.
There's lots of different ways
to interact with them,
to test your own practice, to learn.
So and that definition
is just one of them.
You may not tackle all those pieces.
Of equity at once. Yeah.
But at least you
have that to start thinking about.
So I think it's probably
more than you asked for.
I thought being equity,
having an equity mindset,
you know, I think it
it requires
I mean, the definition said a lot,
but essentially I look at it
as a way that you have to learn how to
teach in a way that is not
necessarily straight
across the board universal.
And you have to give.
You have to give tools
that are specific
to the situation, environment,
a context that you're dealing with them
and not just say you can have one way
and one way of teaching it,
and that's it.
And expect that that's going to work
for all kids in every situation.
Right.
That's kind of my view
from what you said.
And in the summarizer, Brian,
I want to get to you
and actually ask you to jump in.
And I want to ask you
this question here, too.
How do we get from the chief of staff
point of view, how do we get
equity
minded kind of a culture to be there?
Because it's one thing to say
equity is important.
Have a check to check the box statement.
We believe in equity.
But when you look at
how how things are run,
you know, there's not
equity in and in things,
but we say we love equity
and we say these things.
But if you look at
a lot of organizations,
you don't see equitable results in
much of how things are applied.
So how do you have that?
How do you challenge your chief of staff
and folks to really
have that equity mindset?
Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
Your previous point is really
you know when we think around
kind of understanding
each kid as individuals.
Like that's what we're talking about
when we're talking
about kind of student center.
Personalized learning
is understanding
that that one size fits
all kind of industrial model
where there's the teacher
at the front of the classroom
giving the instruction and everyone's
going to move on to their next class,
but really understand
that every child
shows up in a classroom with their own
individual strengths,
the things they need to work
on, their interest in supporting a system
that allows educators
to tap into that
and create the learning environments
for that.
But when when it comes to a kind
of setting and understanding
how to get an equity mindset,
I think with our work
and the center.
So we really encourage state education
agency folks and the folks that lead them
to really start internally
and understand.
What does equity mean
to you at the state?
Every state is individual.
Every state brings their own history,
their own understanding,
but really understand kind of
what does equity mean for your state
and for your staff
and really do the learning
to kind of understand
what does equity mean within your state?
A state's education is going to think
they have all the answers,
but unless they start to really
take the time to understand
what is equity mean,
where are the inequities
within their states
that they see through not only the
test scores, but just
in proportionate support
and surrounding resources.
They're making sure
that things are kind of
what is the state of their state
and thinking about kind of how
their agency can better support
a more equitable learning environment.
It really goes down
to the mindset of that
every individual child has the ability
to their biggest potential
and really making sure that they see
each child and each student
as having the strengths
and the abilities to achieve
what they're able
to and making sure
that they support a system
that allows and enables
educators to do that for them
or with them, I should say. Yeah.
Yeah.
Go ahead, Did
you want to say something Rebercca?
Well, I was just going to share
a little bit of a personal story,
because you were
you were kind enough
to kick us off earlier,
sharing a little of your background.
And I think it sort of complements
what Ryan is talking about.
And so my only sibling has Down syndrome,
and I grew up in a school system
that was actually really,
really well equipped to meet her
very specific needs.
I was kind of on the
other end of the spectrum, you know,
I'm the smarty pants researcher,
you know, had lots
and lots of kind of individual
drive and motivation and very type A
and the school system was pretty
well equipped to also serve me.
It was those huge percentage
of students in the middle
that in our particular school system,
they just kind of grouped in the middle
and got very kind of mediocre
kind of baseline,
like everybody kind of
got the same thing.
And so from a very early age,
I was really attuned to how
well my sister, even with her
profound disability,
and I arrived in a school system
that was able to meet what we need
and how fast numbers of kids
were just kind of bored and disengaged.
And so,
you know, no doubt that
that influenced the research
that I later started
being both a proponent of
and being around student centeredness.
Because
one thing that we have just
absolutely blasted out of the water
at this point, there is no it is a myth
that there is an average student.
Every single student has a diverse
set of needs and backgrounds
and interests and passions.
And so from the research standpoint
that I look most at, from the policy
standpoint that Ryan looks most at,
we're really trying to think about
how do we kind of craft
the systems that are
addressed, the fact that
every single learner has the potential
to learn at a very high button,
to learn at a very high level,
if they're given the kinds of
learner centered approaches
that we're hoping
more and more folks will use.
As time goes on. Absolutely.
I mean, I think that's
you make you make such a great point from
a couple of things.
I mean, looking at how students learn.
I shared the story with you earlier
and I've shared it
with listeners a lot of times.
I won't go into the great depths,
but a lot of people know I have ADHD.
And and in elementary school,
I struggled a whole lot.
But, you know, eventually
a light bulb went off
despite a teacher and some counselors
telling me I wouldn't go to school,
I wouldn't go to college.
I should say I did
and was very successful at it.
But I do know that,
you know, back then how they diagnosed
ADHD, you were diagnosed as a disability
like yourself is like you couldn't
do versus a learning difference.
Like it's
I'm better at listening to books
and I can absorb the.
Better than a lot of people
can reading it cover to cover.
But as long as you're learning it,
then we need to give
that to both teachers and students
the tools to learn in the way
that is receptive to the students
instead of really holding on to
this is the way we've always done it.
People have to read a book,
and that's the only way you can learn it.
That is not factual.
You can you can read.
You can listen to a book
read audible and not take notes.
And I can regurgitate what happened.
Much better than I can.
Reading the paperback
now, some people are the opposite way.
But
but now we definitely have to
we have to teach models
that where people can pivot
and not necessarily
hold on to what worked
for them or what they
they thought was the right way.
And just pivoting
and really disrupting how we teach is
very, very, very important.
I would say second
back to our early point
with when we talk about equity,
and it's been unfortunate that
some things I think
have gotten politicized.
It shouldn't be politicized.
I'll put science in that category,
then I'm next going to put education.
And when I look at it
and I think, frankly,
why it's hard to deal
with talking about equity is because now,
you know, critical race theory
and things like that
have been havee become
a political football
when they shouldn't be critical.
Race to me involves critical thinking.
So we're saying
we're going to look and understand
race from a critical perspective,
not from a simplistic point of view
or the way we've traditionally taught.
So I think as we talk about doing equity,
we have to reason why it's tough.
And I think why we have
to have it as a culture is
we have to have a culture
where people can be challenged,
specifically challenged
some of their traditional beliefs.
And that's very difficult for people
because we've now tied it in.
I think the political environment
has done no favors to us,
but we've tied this in to like
this is part of your identity,
like I must be against this
if I vote this way
and nobody could explain why,
I just have to be against it.
All right.
So like
and I think this is a huge problem.
I don't know how you guys
are tackling this,
because you obviously have to work
in a bipartisan manner
in order to get things accomplished.
But I find
I become very concerned about the way
politics is entering education
in a way that people
don't even want to address
issues that we should be talking about.
I'm curious as to how
you approach these conversations
and how we can hopefully
change this narrative.
I do. I do find it quite disturbing.
So I know that was a
challenging statement.
I said a lot, but I'll turn it over,
you guys, and just
really just get your perspective on
how do we how do we navigate
in this situation
knowing how toxic
the climate is when
you talk about anything
with race inequity,
but you still have to
you have to talk and deal with it
because it's the reality of where we live
and where we are
now.
I'll say from this episode,
I mean, we represent
all the chiefs in the country,
and what we try to do
is be that kind of our executive
editor often talked about like
that friend next to them,
helping them walk through their journey
and really be a resource for them
to make sure that they can trust us
when they come to us,
that they can trust the information
we're providing them
and what we have and invested in working
around equity more.
We built out an equity
access team at the council,
and we have a chief equity officer
and have been running
like an anti-racism
webinar series for them
and really helped to kind of be
a learning organization for them
to help them understand
the kind of history around
the intersection of racism
and our discussions with them
and really be a support to them
to help be a resource for them
as they move forward
and work individually.
You know, with the chiefs in that
these are really kind of
help them and think through,
kind of expand their thinking.
We do a lot of posing questions
to them, to them,
and to explore and really think
that really helps to try
to push their thinking around
kind of what's happening
within their respective communities.
I'm curious like so Rebecca
when people come in,
because I know there's because,
look, I've dealt with it
on the university level
and I've had multiple
ways of communicating it,
but I always did communicate
the need for equity.
I had to happen.
How do you deal with it
when you get that resistance,
when you know what
you're doing objectively
is based on the research?
But humans aren't, myself included,
aren't always rational.
We're going to go back to our
our old biases and beliefs.
And so I'm sure you've had a situation
where someone sees this
that they feel like
you're doing something
from a political lens
when it's based on research
and what's actually best for the kids.
How do you approach that situation
when it happens?
I know. I know what's happened.
Oh, yes, indeed.
I am laughing because
we're in the middle
of like three of those situations.
I'm sure in real time what you could say.
There's not a confidential.
Yeah, not let let's just say we
because we work in. Likewise.
Where, you know,
we don't cover all 50 states
the way CXO does,
but we are in very deep partnership
with blue states, red
states, purple states.
And, you know, political football,
I think is the right phrase.
We say it a lot right now, you know.
So a couple of things, Rob
I mean, we really
we as an organization
have been on our own journey
to better understand our own
diversity, equity,
inclusion, justice,
both external positioning and internally.
How do we support staff?
How do we talk to each other?
What kinds of systems do we have?
So we're we're in the middle
of a pretty deep journey ourselves.
And what that's doing is it's
giving us more clarity on
our values.
And what do we who
who do we want to be
as an organization in the field?
And so what we try to do
can't always do it,
but we try to start
from that position and say,
this is who we are,
this is what we believe in.
This is the kinds of education
transformation we're working for.
If you want to work with us,
just know that that's
what you're going to get. Right.
And so in some ways,
because we're talking about concepts
like competency based
education and performance assessment
and sort of all these
wonderful ways of
starting to understand learning
that we think are apolitical
but become very political.
You know, so from a certain standpoint,
we're trying to navigate that by saying,
here's who we are.
Yeah, this is this is what we stand for.
Now, we have lots of love.
We've been around for over 20 years now.
So lots of folks have known us
in different places from different ways.
So so they know you get
to ask those questions.
You know, and I you know,
I've been writing about
and speaking about student
centered research for years.
And I don't always speak to,
you know, audience
like you said, like Bill, I've gotten
will any challenge.
I mean, you're going to
and I think you're going to it's
going to continue more.
What I tend to do
is, you know, especially
if it's somebody I know.
But even if it's not, I try to get
an understanding of
where do they base their values on.
There are some people that you
that you can't agree with that
they're just there like but
generally speaking,
people have some basis of values
that they follow.
And I work to try
to get them to understand
that this is coming from
their values perspective.
This is not coming
from a different values perspective.
But then then then you follow.
And generally, that's been successful,
having people understand
where they come from
and communicate and just get them to
really just think about it,
not necessarily attacking them to say
like your race is your bias,
but getting them to understand
their perspective
and then seeing this perspective
in a way that reflects their values,
often works.
That's that's usually what I do
when I deal with people
that have a different perspective
or just automatically are,
you know, against critical race theory
without actually understanding
what critical race theory is,
because I think we have
to work individually
to get ourselves past
this collective madness
that is going on,
because it is collective madness
that is going on
right now in our society.
And I think a lot of it is fueled
by how social media
and things work at this time.
But I do think it's very important.
Let let's switch
the topic a little bit and go to
actually I want to talk about
related to that topic,
but a little bit
to talk about the pandemic
and the effect that's had on your work
and how you've seen
that kind of play out.
So just in general,
the pandemic, I think,
has done several things. I think it's
it's created a a
new normal in some ways
in terms of how humans
and how we interact.
I think there will always
be an urge to have face to face.
But I also think now, you know,
what we're doing now
digitally is now commonplace.
It's just as common to to have
a zoom meeting as it is to
if you need to look up information
to Google like a zoom
and Google are like now terms,
we can kind of have together.
That's because of the pandemic now.
And people have meetings now.
I'm sure the whole policies have changed
in terms of how people meet people.
Now, thought you couldn't do that.
You had to meet in person.
You had to have some
strategy meetings in person, you know.
So we've learned.
We've changed, but education,
I'm sure, has had some challenges.
What have you
what have you seen
as the challenges and the opportunities
in this moment with the pandemic,
with the work that you guys are doing?
I think one of the things we've seen
and even connected to that
educator Comess, is
an understanding that the current system,
like it was a stress test
in a way that the pandemic
and what we've learned
is that really this
type of model doesn't work, can't work.
And so we've seen
a real interest from states,
but also
around kind of looking
at education in a new way.
And I think that's what
the kind of benefit has been.
It exposed the inequities
within our system to everyone
and really force everyone
to look at kind of how we're doing school
and seeing the challenges
that this model has taken.
And what we've seen
and what I've heard from the folks
I work with at our schools,
that we're already on this model
that understood and
empowered their learners
to own their learning.
They have the relationships
with their students already
and saw them as
individuals and understood
what they show up
in the classroom
and that they were able
to transition to this model
to have this kind of hybrid
remote learning model
a lot more smoothly
than some of the more
traditional education schools.
And so we want to take
advantage of that and highlight
that and illustrate
that there is a new model
that's out there
that's been around for a while
that state school districts can look to
as enabling more empowerment
of their learners
so they don't have to be
in front of them at all times
and know that they're learning.
But also that builds
those strong relationships
with a learner.
And even through the work,
we finish this project
through the end of the pandemic
and had this shift and integrated
kind of the importance
of social emotional learning
in the competencies,
because we saw it as such and elevated
our focus that school
and the system we're looking at,
but also not just the social
emotional effects of the limits,
but the educators themselves
and ensuring that they're supportive
and are able to kind of show up
their best selves in order
to support the learning of their students
or really kind of
exposing the inequities
that were already there
and that were hidden for some people.
But yeah, exactly said that.
Right. And for some people.
Because they didn't see it, correct?
Exactly.
So it really exposed the system.
And I think the hope is that
the field is looking for
kind of a new system.
And luckily, there have been folks
that have been working in that field
for a while that can point to it.
And so folks aren't
just starting from scratch
now that we're slowly
moving out of the pandemic.
Yeah, I think, you know, Rebecca,
as we look at this year,
some some see this as a loss year
for a lot of students right in there.
And, you know, personally,
my home with son is even even
with resources, difficult
depending on who you are.
Like remote is challenging for some kids.
Some kids remote is just bad for it.
I mean, you can have the best engagement
you can, but some kids just absolutely
remote is just not it.
You know, but that being said,
if you don't have resources
and you are already
challenged, as as Ryan said,
you saw a lot you saw a really dramatic
kind of setback for a lot of people.
What do you see as our opportunity here
like that going forward?
Like what? What, what, what, what, what
gives you hope that we're going
to get better from this moment
and actually grow?
Because we know of the drastic
kind of things that happen.
I'm sure that I'm sure
you've seen the numbers.
And there was this was
this was a
this was a really challenging year
for learning for everyone.
Like what what can we take away?
Like if there's something specifically
you can point to that
some of the work that you guys is doing
could help folks.
I would love to hear
about what you see
as a kind of a hopeful course
going forward from this moment
with the pandemic.
So I see a lot to hope for
and a lot of what Ryan
was just saying it.
So we've been at this work again
for close to a decade,
and this was a pretty massive reset.
And yeah,
that's another story.
You know, there's a little bit
you know, there's that little piece of me
that's kind of like told you so.
So like if we had been paying attention
to individual learner
needs to social, emotional,
to relationships, to the whole
there's the horrible lack of equity
in our schools, things that Ryan and I
and our organizations
have been talking about,
screaming about,
writing about, researching
about for years.
We would have been in
a very different place in this pandemic.
And so I while the numbers are staggering
and horrifying right now,
there's
the hope and the optimism I have
is that there are fewer people
who think it's OK to go back to normal.
There's a lot more
talking about a new normal
or how are we going to reinvent or
what have we learned
from this pandemic moment
that we want to keep?
Because things like paying attention
to social, emotional, paying attention
to relationships,
I mean, there there has been no bigger
kind of proof point
at this point
that would have been possible
given the massive disruption
of so many students lives, parents lives.
And for so long we've been saying
look at how different every learner is.
And we all have now or many case studies.
I mean, you have children who are home.
I had to siblings
my two children who are siblings,
same parents, same household
like super different experience of remote
learning and pandemic
and what each one of them needed
and how they each
found ways to socialize.
And we were extremely fortunate
that they were able
to adapt to remote setting.
But then kids, two houses down
in a similar school system
could not adapt to the remote setting.
So
while it means we have a
just unbelievable
set of needs of students
and trauma and academics to figure out,
I don't think anybody can argue anymore
that there's this
oh, if we just all give everybody
the same thing, it'll be OK.
Yeah.
And with that and no one's going to argue
about how valuable
I don't think at least
at least anytime soon,
about how valuable teachers are.
And you have to
you had to go to be a
teacher for yourself.
Oh, my God. Like this is work.
And as Ryan said, I mean,
if you had a relationship with a school
and with a teacher,
you tended to do better.
You tended to stay connected.
So why wouldn't we pay attention
to things like relationships?
Why wouldn't we privilege
those as much as academics
because they are so tightly connected?
And one one more thing
that gave me a little
bit of hope, and we don't
we don't have enough numbers about this,
but talking to friends in the field whose
school networks served
some of our most marginalized students
and just, you know, some of the anecdotes
we were able to pull out of
the field is for some youth
who going to school was already
a traumatic experience,
who are already facing bias
and cultural negativity every day.
For some of those students,
being able to disengage for that
gave them the time
that they'd never had
to actually celebrate their own
learning and learning in their own way
because some student
it was better for for some it was better.
And we have a not there again.
I'm I'm eager for those right now.
I know, again, it does not negate
the many, many, many losses,
the trauma of the time,
the losses of relationships.
But I think it just points
to the fact that one size
is never going to see exactly
if it's the opportunity for
there should be some
remote learning opportunities for
for some students in some ways,
because if it works, do that time,
they are improving
their remote offerings.
We are seeing states
that are looking
at a more competency based framework
so that you're not
not all about learning loss.
I'm trying very hard to avoid that term,
because what you know
against who benchmarked
against what I mean,
we need to really understand.
That's a fair point.
What did you learn
and how do we help you get back on track?
And so exactly something
that a competency based system
can do a lot more than
one standardized test.
And either you met it or you didn't.
I mean, let's find out
until they get standardized tests.
You're preaching to the converted here.
I was horrible at standardized tests.
Ironically, I got to law school Right.
Right.
Once I got to law school,
eventually I actually
I failed the bar the first time.
The second time I got one of the highest
scores in the state.
I figured out the hack in my.
Brain to figure out
how to do standardized test,
but that that's better law.
I did, but I didn't make exactally
I didn't learn better.
I figured out how to take a test better.
And that's not learning.
We have to
we have to really get around like I can
I can have a whole podcast
about standardized tests.
And we're seeing some openings
for that conversation, too.
So that's another place that I'm feeling
hopeful coming out of the pandemic
is some realization that
maybe those tests.
And we absolutely
we need to know benchmarking.
We need to know.
Oh, yeah.
Well, there's multiple ways to do
kind of standardized way.
But let's open up
that definition a little bit more
to really think about.
How do you measure learning?
Oh, absolutely. And you know what?
When you talk about learning loss
and I want to move on to something else,
I think that I think
my biggest concern is
for kids
that were just starting high school
and they had a really bad year
in terms of their grades.
How is that going to be
viewed from colleges?
And to me, colleges and universities
need to probably get some grace
for this year for that
for twenty twenty, twenty one.
And just say this was just a unique time.
And so I'm hoping that
that's that's going to be
part of the consideration.
And that's really what I
that's that's my biggest concern,
because the other stuff,
if you're not in high school,
it's probably you can
probably you'll be OK
is not being counted against you.
But when you did poorly in this year,
that counts against you
in a cumulative way.
So that's kind of my only God.
That's my only concern
as one of my biggest concerns.
And so how is that going to be viewed?
I mean, the other concern I have is
what about the emotional component?
Let's dive into that a little bit,
because I'm interested
to hear about that.
You know, there was the
emotional component of
of not being able to be around.
People were tribal by nature,
so that that did something
to do something to me.
So I imagine it did something to kids.
And then,
you know,
if you're black in this country,
you or brown and you
and you saw what was happening,
this is not new to you.
It's been happening all the time,
but in a way that was just
more transparent
and just kind of
because even when you have things
that are happening in
an unjust way on a regular basis,
people like to escape from it,
not to think about it all the time,
because then that becomes
your only reality.
But when things happened
with George Floyd, Amed Aubrey,
Brianna Taylor, so on and so forth,
I can go through a lot of names. And
I mean, it was really
traumatic, traumatic for me.
And I imagine it's traumatic for our kids
in our schools that are
going through this.
So how did you
what did you learn from this moment
and how did you talk to your
you know, for Ryan,
for your point of view?
How did you talk to the chief of staff?
And then from you know, Rebecca,
how did you figure out how to put that
into a policy perspective
in dealing with this emotional trauma,
just dealing with
this emotional trauma in general,
and how that was
something you could learn
from or expand from,
given what just happened?
Yeah, I mean, I think,
you know, work really put an emphasis on,
you know, identifying
and talking about that.
Our system needs to talk about
kind of what is what is
and identify both the macro
trauma that occurs,
but then also the micro trauma
for individual students.
And so I think throughout
that kind of this project
we worked on and throughout
is really putting
an emphasis on the importance
of that social emotional relationship
that educators have with their students
and making sure that they understand
kind of who they are
as individuals,
how can they bring their community
into the classroom
and kind of making sure
that they're building an environment
that a student is does
feel safe and feel seen,
because we know from the science
of learning and development
that in order for a student
to be able to learn best,
they need to feel safe and secure
and have adults around them
that believe and support them.
So, you know, with our work,
we're just trying
to emphasize the importance
of the kind of well-being
for students and putting out
resources that will allow states to work
with districts in the school
to think about how to create
environments where
there is more well-being
for their students and their educators,
and to ensure that as we move
through this moment
to understand the trauma
that we've all collectively felt
and then some far greater than others,
to really understand
how to create an environment
that well, as we continue
to move back into the classrooms
or think about
learning in different ways,
that puts an emphasis
on the child and educator as well being.
I think we've seen obviously
it's a lot more focused
on academic and academic success
except but we've seen
that we're starting already,
but I think really accelerated
during the pandemic,
a real emphasis on kind of the students
well-being and ensuring
you have a system
in a school that supports
kind of the whole child
and ensures that they're able
to thrive to their best ability
in an environment
that is supportive of them
and their individual
needs, their strengths,
and kind of kind of what makes them them.
Yeah. Rebecca.
So I think what Ryan
said was just spot on, and I think for us
and in some ways in particular
with this project, it.
It
enabled us to.
To
be more
clear and transparent
than we had in the past. Yeah.
Look at what you're saying
is no different from what
I experienced either,
and I'll say it more and more, frankly.
Right.
When talking to white Americans,
it was easier to have
a conversation about race. Exactly.
And from the understand
that this is not something
that I was overexaggerating, making up,
because people it's hard to deny it .
Right. So no matter where you came from.
So it became impossible.
So the conversations
I've never had more conversations
with my white counterparts about race.
And I'm hoping that there is a moment
where we actually like
we we expand and have real impact
to where we are.
I'm happy to see people
with their diversity statements.
I'm happy to see people say
black lives matter, kind of.
But at the end of day life,
what really matters to me
more is what policy changes
are you going to do?
What practices are you going to change?
How are you going to make sure
we have more equitable results
across the board
that I care about,
that more words do matter.
So I'm not going to say
they don't matter.
But what what really matters
is substance to back up
what you say as well.
And from organizational standpoint,
what it I mean, naming it again,
we earlier were talking
about definitions, not just kind of set.
I mean, equity at
this point has almost become
almost a fluff term. I mean, I would.
But but really naming.
What do you mean and for whom and where?
And then in and of my sphere
here, it's then.
Well, then
how do you measure the impact of it?
How do you surface it
in a way that we can show
what is happening
to black and brown bodies
so that we can show if we are thinking
about student centered learning,
we can show that, in fact,
it is helping to close
gaps and open opportunities
rather than exacerbate them. Yeah.
So for for, you know, from
a very sort of organizational operational
standpoint, it has given us
more clarity and more
necessity of naming it
and being clear about
what are we going to do about it.
And so, you know,
and then I also think it's sort of a very
personal level.
You know, I I'm a white person.
I did not experience it personally, but
had children who are of an age
to understand the news.
And so there were daily conversations.
There were.
How are their schools handling it?
So and again, this was something
that, you know, in in
twelve years of having one child
and nine of it like
it was it has never been this explicit,
which I take as a really positive sign,
because if you can't talk about it
and you can't name it and you can't
measure it, then you're never
going to be able to change.
Absolutely. Absolutely not.
Yeah.
When you avoid a problem,
the problem grows.
If you try to avoid dealing
with your suffering,
your suffering increases. You don't.
You got it. You got to deal with it.
And this has been
the single biggest challenge
with dealing with race
and equity in this country
is that the way to address
it is to not deal with it
or pretend as if it doesn't exist,
which always makes the problem worse.
You got you got to
you got to really have an
acknowledgment of the issue
before you can address it.
And I think that's been a major problem
for us
collectively as Americans
has been our one of our greatest,
if not the greatest kind of our block.
We've just had that
kind of it's been like
our emotional block
that we just don't want to deal with.
But but the pandemic,
you know, made people deal
with a lot of things
that they previously had ignored.
And so I do think there is hope
in this opportunity
that people can see this moment
and want to make sure
that we are better for it
and not and not repeat
some of the same inequities
and systems
that have failed us in the past.
Final question
as we kind of wrap up here,
what does what you have
your vision of success?
However, we can bring this out
10, 15 years from now.
What does success look like?
Every educator in
every system in the country
is using the educator competencies
for personalized learning center.
I mean, I think,
you know,
I hate to be Pollyanna ish,
but if we were doing
what is in those competencies,
we would have a very,
very different system
of education with very
different outcomes.
In particular, to marginalize students
and just, you know that and ensure
that every student
just have a positive
experience at school that enables them
to develop themselves
to their fullest individual.
And I think if educators and our system
move towards this more
personalized system
that emphasizes individuals
with their strengths,
what they need to work on their
their backgrounds, their communities,
more students will have
positive experiences
in schools that will enable them
to be successful
as they move on into their adulthood
when each kid to love learning.
Yeah.
Ryan MacDonald, Rebecca Wolfe,
it's been a pleasure having you on.
Love to have you guys on again.
Appreciate you coming on disruption.
Thank you, Rob. Thank you.