WEBVTT 00:00:04.105 --> 00:00:12.097 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I am Pastor Cameron. 00:00:12.243 --> 00:00:19.737 And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:20.003 --> 00:00:26.477 Today, on the podcast, we're sitting down to kind of record, pick up a conversation 00:00:26.477 --> 00:00:28.384 that we were kind of maybe starting to have. 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:33.137 I don't know exactly what the conversation is going to be exactly. 00:00:33.137 --> 00:00:37.937 We've kind of, I don't know, maybe it's because we're, um, well, it's funny. 00:00:37.937 --> 00:00:47.457 We just did an episode on like social media and being on our phones and conversation we're having is a little bit sparked by what we see on social 00:00:47.457 --> 00:00:51.217 media. Um, how, I don't know, 00:00:51.217 --> 00:00:59.685 what would you kind of describe these videos as that we kind of are coming and kind of interacting with in our social feeds. 00:01:00.237 --> 00:01:10.077 I would say that they are usually little clips that are pulled out of a Sunday, like a Sunday service. 00:01:11.597 --> 00:01:20.030 Usually the senior pastor or lead pastor. And it is like them saying or doing, 00:01:20.516 --> 00:01:25.317 saying or doing the most cringe things you would ever. 00:01:29.237 --> 00:01:35.342 Like I don't know who are these people that are sitting in your congregation, 00:01:35.897 --> 00:01:38.997 that are putting up with this absolute nonsense. 00:01:38.997 --> 00:01:45.326 Right, why are you not getting up and just walking out? Right, or where is like, do you, 00:01:45.557 --> 00:01:47.685 they can't have a strong leadership structure, 00:01:48.357 --> 00:01:55.517 that it's actually like holds the pastor accountable or that the pastor at least submits to accountability. 00:01:55.677 --> 00:01:59.837 Probably, that's probably a. Or it's so insular and like. Right. 00:01:59.837 --> 00:02:00.324 It's a bunch of yes men. 00:02:00.677 --> 00:02:04.477 Because there are some things recently that we've kind of sent back and forth to each other 00:02:04.477 --> 00:02:07.616 or on Instagram or whatever that have been like. 00:02:08.993 --> 00:02:16.852 I would fire myself. Like it's not, like I love you, you're one of my closest friends, Luke. 00:02:18.025 --> 00:02:25.908 I don't generally, I never like preview your sermons to make sure that they're appropriate 00:02:26.265 --> 00:02:30.525 for the pulpit of this church. 00:02:32.385 --> 00:03:01.505 And even though I love you, if you did something Like I, like we've, like I'm seeing in these clips, I would probably fire you before the service was over. Like, it's just what you've said, right? It's that bad. And so I'm like, part of it, it's like, okay, could I, could I be the victim of, you know, someone just 00:03:01.773 --> 00:03:32.445 Cut cutting out one little blip of a sermon and posting it online and being like, can you believe this? But sure, yes, I could. But we've done we've done enough of these episodes to know that, like, oh, if we took that out of context and put it made it into a clip, it could sound more worse than it actually actually is, or it sounds really like thought provoking or whatever. But this isn't that This is not that. 00:03:32.445 --> 00:03:34.442 This is much, much different. 00:03:34.605 --> 00:03:39.605 This is either like what I would consider to be, 00:03:42.225 --> 00:03:44.865 ungodly, un-Christlike behavior. 00:03:47.885 --> 00:03:56.480 Pushing the, not even pushing the limits, blowing through, like diving off the cliff 00:03:56.606 --> 00:04:02.865 of cultural relevancy, just to try and connect with a contemporary audience, 00:04:03.905 --> 00:04:12.065 so much to the fact that it, I would say, blasphemes the name of God, the purpose of the 00:04:12.065 --> 00:04:22.705 church, the place of worship. And some of these churches are like pastors or churches where I was 00:04:22.705 --> 00:04:26.945 like, come on, you know, better, right. 00:04:26.965 --> 00:04:28.865 Or you should know, or you should know better. 00:04:29.365 --> 00:04:35.785 Yeah. Like there's like, read the room, bro. There's two, like two kind of ends of the spectrum. 00:04:35.785 --> 00:04:39.065 I guess there's these churches that are maybe a little bit. 00:04:40.366 --> 00:04:46.636 I guess some of the more completely and utterly outrageous things are being done in kind of, 00:04:47.816 --> 00:04:53.656 smaller more independent churches. Probably churches you've never heard of. Churches you've never heard of, you know, like. 00:04:55.256 --> 00:05:04.596 Pastors who don't have a significant platform other than now kind of being known for viral videos of like clips that they probably aren't putting out but people. 00:05:05.392 --> 00:05:09.407 Probably are like going and looking at this church's live stream on Facebook 00:05:09.596 --> 00:05:14.341 every week and seeing if they do something crazy this week enough to, you, 00:05:14.917 --> 00:05:23.596 know, steal a clip of it and post it somewhere. And then there's the other end of the spectrum where we have maybe high-end, high-visible pastors and 00:05:23.596 --> 00:05:29.716 churches who are doing things to, a lot of times, a significant amount of applause 00:05:29.716 --> 00:05:41.516 and big crowd and amens, but is just when you think at all critically about what 00:05:41.516 --> 00:05:54.476 it what's happening and what's being said it's just. I need to go take a shower after I'm done hearing it because I feel gross. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to 00:05:54.476 --> 00:06:03.596 play some of the clips? I mean we can. Or we can even just talk about them if we 00:06:03.596 --> 00:06:09.796 want to. It's kind of a... Yeah I don't think that has the same... Same punch? I don't 00:06:09.796 --> 00:06:16.076 think it has the same punch. I'll play the one that I showed you earlier about the 00:06:16.076 --> 00:06:21.716 guy that comes up and asks for prayer or asks to pray. Okay yeah yeah. I had 00:06:22.110 --> 00:06:25.774 I had searched for it again, because I needed to find it. 00:06:27.316 --> 00:06:30.496 Oh, here it is, okay. So. Karaoke bar. 00:06:35.036 --> 00:06:39.756 So the first part of the video, you can't really hear what's going on. 00:06:40.213 --> 00:06:46.200 Yeah. But this guy is, it's from the back of a sanctuary, pastor up front. 00:06:47.056 --> 00:06:53.501 This guy comes to the front, asking either for prayer or if he can pray. 00:06:53.696 --> 00:06:56.276 Yeah, yeah, it's not entirely sure which. 00:06:56.276 --> 00:07:03.457 And so then the pastor who is up front, then as he sees the man coming forward, 00:07:04.556 --> 00:07:08.147 responds in this fantastic fashion. 00:07:09.456 --> 00:07:13.315 What are you coming up here to do? You wanna come take over the service? Huh? 00:07:13.496 --> 00:07:18.796 What do you want? What? I just wanna pray. Get out of here. Can I get a little grace? 00:07:18.796 --> 00:07:20.967 No, you can't. No, you get out of here. 00:07:21.316 --> 00:07:22.101 Get him out of here. 00:07:23.156 --> 00:07:24.711 Drag this bozo out. 00:07:26.276 --> 00:07:28.501 Pull him out. Hey, help him out. In and out. 00:07:29.987 --> 00:07:33.117 And you know what? Anybody who wants to come up here and take over the service, 00:07:34.614 --> 00:07:40.077 we'll throw you out of here, buddy. This church is not a free-for-all. This isn't an open mic. 00:07:40.077 --> 00:07:47.559 This isn't a karaoke bar, okay? I'm the man of God here. I meet the qualifications. I run this church, 00:07:47.757 --> 00:07:53.366 and if you don't like it, then get out. This is not some church where every first-time visitor, 00:07:53.807 --> 00:07:57.444 and brand-new believer and people who've never even read the Bible are going to come up and 00:07:57.677 --> 00:08:03.556 take over the service. Not happening! Okay? If you want that kind of watered-down leadership, 00:08:03.862 --> 00:08:08.397 go to some house church with your Amish buddies and sit around the coffee table with your coffee 00:08:08.397 --> 00:08:14.998 clatch. This is a New Testament church. We have a bishop here. We have an overseer here. Like it or 00:08:15.117 --> 00:08:19.202 lump it. And if you don't like it, feel free to get up and leave the service at any time. 00:08:19.580 --> 00:08:25.360 50% of people walk out. I don't care because you know what? I'm not going to pastor a oneness cult! 00:08:25.864 --> 00:08:30.410 I'm not going to pastor a Pentecostal church. I'm the pastor of a Baptist church. 00:08:30.941 --> 00:08:33.426 And if you're not a Baptist, then get out. Sit down. 00:08:37.873 --> 00:08:43.037 Talk about someone who had too much pre-workout in their morning devotional. Oh my gosh. 00:08:45.757 --> 00:09:04.637 Like, I don't even know what that is or Or like, I don't like sheer and utter total overreaction to a situation. 00:09:07.817 --> 00:09:17.317 I mean, I think that I think your description is the underreaction of the century because it's not because here's 00:09:17.317 --> 00:09:18.455 the thing. Here's the thing. 00:09:19.121 --> 00:09:23.631 I think ultimately for me. That is the kicker, is that. 00:09:27.133 --> 00:09:33.642 That man just showed the character by which he pastors. Period. 00:09:34.983 --> 00:09:43.076 It is not as if he was like, oh, I just lost myself in a moment of passion. 00:09:44.183 --> 00:09:49.009 Right. You know, and something slipped out of my mouth that I didn't think of. 00:09:51.223 --> 00:10:03.423 Like, you feel something deep in your heart about, like, this is the way in which this man pastors these people, or doesn't pastor them, 00:10:04.394 --> 00:10:10.371 but ironed fists them. Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. The mouth speaks. 00:10:11.118 --> 00:10:20.623 Right. Right. And here's the thing, like, his line about, I'm the man of God, 00:10:20.623 --> 00:10:22.974 God, I run this church. 00:10:23.406 --> 00:10:28.863 Yeah, you don't like it, get out. Don't like it, get out. 00:10:28.863 --> 00:10:37.663 Pretty much, I mean, maybe this is an overstatement, but pretty much when you use those words and 00:10:37.663 --> 00:10:42.063 phrases, you show that you're not. 00:10:42.063 --> 00:10:43.220 That you're not qualified. 00:10:43.943 --> 00:10:48.514 That you are disqualified, that you're not the man of God to lead this place. 00:10:49.383 --> 00:10:53.357 It's kind of like leading with the statement. I think humility is my best. 00:10:53.483 --> 00:10:55.283 Yeah, I'm the most humble person I know. 00:10:55.653 --> 00:11:00.423 Yeah, it's like leading with that. I am the most humble person that I know. 00:11:01.603 --> 00:11:12.019 And so when you undo what should be the stated and clear and obvious fact by your words and actions by stating it. 00:11:12.843 --> 00:11:13.270 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:14.223 --> 00:11:17.879 Now, okay, benefit of the doubt. 00:11:19.194 --> 00:11:24.137 A two-minute clip. I don't know him. I don't know the church. Sure. 00:11:25.603 --> 00:11:31.497 But in a two-minute clip, you get a really good idea of just who the man is. 00:11:31.497 --> 00:11:37.337 Yeah. I mean, I'm willing to concede that, sure, like, he doesn't have to give over the microphone 00:11:37.337 --> 00:11:45.817 to anyone like... I don't like... If someone we did not know came up and approached the stage 00:11:45.817 --> 00:11:51.237 on Sunday, like we're not gonna just say, oh, sure, give them a microphone or something 00:11:51.494 --> 00:11:52.232 like that. 00:11:52.628 --> 00:11:56.868 100%. But we're not gonna have them physically removed from the sanctuary. 00:11:57.077 --> 00:12:00.487 And then flip out on the rest of the congregation. Right. 00:12:01.117 --> 00:12:03.224 You know, why don't you go meet with your Amish friend? 00:12:04.286 --> 00:12:14.157 That's the weirdest. That's the statement where I'm like, there is some context that is needed for that statement. 00:12:14.157 --> 00:12:19.770 That was Amish friend opened up a church at some point and he lost a bunch of people Amish church or something. 00:12:19.957 --> 00:12:20.688 Yeah. 00:12:21.525 --> 00:12:24.917 I was like, I don't know what he's talking about, but all like, you know, like there's 00:12:24.917 --> 00:12:27.413 a gazillion ways you could have responded with that. 00:12:27.737 --> 00:12:31.677 Like you could have, you, you, he said he had overseer and Bishop, like, so you've got 00:12:31.677 --> 00:12:36.757 other lay leaders, have them come up, talk with the guy and like either give him prayer 00:12:37.037 --> 00:12:41.157 in the middle of the service, if that's what he was asking for, or like have them listen 00:12:41.157 --> 00:12:46.557 to what is it that you want to share or say, and they can, there's a gazillion ways to have handled that. 00:12:46.557 --> 00:12:51.359 Take him into an office, pray for him, do what needs to be done without. 00:12:51.877 --> 00:13:02.877 And you still get to maintain orderliness. The way he reacted did more to disrupt the orderliness of the worship and the service 00:13:02.877 --> 00:13:08.517 than that guy's request was. 00:13:08.742 --> 00:13:09.147 So it's just... 00:13:10.444 --> 00:13:19.770 Yeah. You know what I'm discovering? I think the older I get or the longer I'm a pastor is how little tolerance I have for, 00:13:20.364 --> 00:13:23.848 or abusive church leadership. 00:13:27.174 --> 00:13:32.174 It just like, I, there's, like I feel very little, 00:13:35.054 --> 00:13:39.674 I feel very little desire in me to be exceedingly graceful. 00:13:42.974 --> 00:13:53.754 In those situations. Like, with those that would actively do the church harm, or the people in the church, 00:13:53.754 --> 00:14:03.714 or the church leadership, or the church staff, or whomever that I'm just like, yeah, my wick 00:14:03.714 --> 00:14:07.401 is super short on that, or I guess my fuse is super short on that. 00:14:07.594 --> 00:14:20.654 Yeah, and you know the thing that frustrates me is having been closer to having graduated 00:14:20.654 --> 00:14:25.614 Bible college, and a lot of my friends and stuff, we all have gone into a lot of our 00:14:25.614 --> 00:14:27.440 first church positions. 00:14:28.054 --> 00:14:35.614 And the ones I've kept in touch with, I would probably say that just off the top of my head, 00:14:35.614 --> 00:14:40.094 doing an inventory of my friends who are in ministry or serving in ministry, 00:14:42.014 --> 00:14:49.614 most of them ended up in poor church leadership or unhealthy situations. 00:14:50.369 --> 00:14:51.134 Why do you think that is? 00:14:52.254 --> 00:15:00.703 I don't know. I think, I mean, part of the reason simply is that when you're new, 00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:08.094 you just take whatever job you can get. But then I also think some of it has got to do with the. 00:15:11.542 --> 00:15:16.832 Like, the culture around, like, the type of church that we expect churches to be. 00:15:17.826 --> 00:15:22.669 Like, some of it's even just, like, organizational. I had a friend who's 00:15:22.804 --> 00:15:28.992 part of a denomination, he just left, left his position. And I was asking him, I was like, 00:15:28.992 --> 00:15:35.312 well, what steps, because what he was describing to me was pretty atrocious behavior, some pretty 00:15:35.312 --> 00:15:39.772 awful stuff. I was like, what, what steps did you take to kind 00:15:40.016 --> 00:15:44.432 of report or like seek rep, you know, to seek justice on this? 00:15:44.432 --> 00:15:50.972 Because you were done wrong and multiple people are, are, have been done wrong in the situation. And he's, and he's, 00:15:51.413 --> 00:15:57.688 like, well, he's like, I pursued everything that I could, but the way that the structure of the organization, the church, the, 00:15:58.174 --> 00:16:08.552 denomination, all that leaves little teeth for there to be anything done about it until somebody inside of the system, 00:16:09.274 --> 00:16:16.718 kind of makes it blow up or makes the pastor or the unhealthy leaders leave, there's nothing to be done. 00:16:17.432 --> 00:16:19.662 And it's like, well, that's a systems problem. 00:16:22.032 --> 00:16:28.610 Going and filing reports that the denomination can hold onto but can't do anything with, 00:16:28.912 --> 00:16:31.672 I'm like, well, that's, that's pretty awful. 00:16:32.391 --> 00:16:38.752 Right. Um, so I don't know, I think it's, it's a, um, you know, we, I don't know, maybe 00:16:38.752 --> 00:16:46.712 we've talked about this, but there is this, um, weird upside down pyramid. 00:16:47.560 --> 00:16:53.512 That's kind of happening when it comes to, um, comes to churches, right. 00:16:53.934 --> 00:16:59.434 Um, the majority when I say, so picture an upside down pyramid, at least it's the way I think about it, 00:16:59.592 --> 00:17:02.693 as you think the majority of Christians, 00:17:03.192 --> 00:17:06.942 attend abnormally large churches. 00:17:08.085 --> 00:17:09.499 So, like... 00:17:10.696 --> 00:17:13.928 Maybe maybe an upside-down pyramids not a helpful way to think about it, but, 00:17:15.386 --> 00:17:24.776 majority of Christians are attending mega churches Tending churches with really large attendance, but the majority of churches are around a hundred people. 00:17:28.683 --> 00:17:36.426 Is that Did you say that backwards? So the majority of Christians attend megachurches rather than the majority of churches, or majority 00:17:36.426 --> 00:17:38.504 of Christians just attend regular churches? 00:17:41.066 --> 00:17:50.414 So I think I said it right. So you've got, so like, so for example, the way that like, kind of talked about this when 00:17:50.586 --> 00:17:55.586 I was studying, getting my pastoral ministry degree, is most of the people who I was in 00:17:55.586 --> 00:18:02.626 class with attended churches that were 500 plus. Like maybe not necessarily mega churches, 00:18:02.626 --> 00:18:08.146 but they were 500 plus. They were these big churches. And a lot of people think that that is 00:18:08.146 --> 00:18:14.495 the normal church experience, because that's where the majority of Christians are slowly 00:18:14.639 --> 00:18:20.946 funneling to. They're going to more and more big churches. But because those churches are 00:18:21.076 --> 00:18:27.186 big in attendance, there's fewer of them. And now we've got the majority of churches, 00:18:28.422 --> 00:18:35.506 are actually around about 100 people, but that experience no longer encapsulates the majority 00:18:35.506 --> 00:18:40.386 experience of people's church attendance. See, I would have thought that it would have been 00:18:40.386 --> 00:18:50.986 different. I would have thought that by sheer number of volume of smaller churches. 00:18:50.986 --> 00:18:51.458 Yeah. 00:18:53.223 --> 00:18:57.472 And lower amount of megachurches that while it appears. 00:19:00.773 --> 00:19:08.113 As though more people go to big churches, there's just an undercurrent of so many people 00:19:08.273 --> 00:19:12.416 in smaller congregations so that it would, 00:19:13.133 --> 00:19:19.833 so that while big churches with a full sanctuary appear to be the norm because they're really big 00:19:19.833 --> 00:19:27.113 really full, it's actually the smaller churches with 100 people, because they're everywhere. 00:19:27.113 --> 00:19:33.913 Right. I think that used to be the case. And I think what I was told over and over in my classes, 00:19:34.372 --> 00:19:38.882 was that that was not the case, that it shifted, where more and more people are attending these... 00:19:40.647 --> 00:19:46.393 What people have come to think of as an average church size, right? Like some of the terms that 00:19:46.393 --> 00:19:53.833 we use to describe churches are sometimes wrong. People often will say, oh, well, I attend or you 00:19:53.833 --> 00:19:58.777 go to or that is a small church, and they're referring to a church that's about 100 people, 00:19:59.038 --> 00:20:05.753 150 people. Really, that's an average-sized church, and people think like a normal-sized church is, 00:20:06.393 --> 00:20:14.393 upwards of 300, 400, 500 people plus. I suppose it has a lot to do with where you live, too. 00:20:14.513 --> 00:20:19.789 It does. So here in Chautauqua County, if someone says, well, how many people are at 00:20:19.993 --> 00:20:26.633 your church? And I say, well, we average between 250 on a Sunday. It can... Somewhere in that 00:20:26.633 --> 00:20:31.913 realm is our norm. And they're like, wow, that's a pretty good size church. It's a pretty decent 00:20:31.913 --> 00:20:37.193 size church. I'm like, well, yeah, maybe for Jamestown or Chautauqua County, but 00:20:37.193 --> 00:20:42.193 But, you know, if you go to Chicago. 00:20:43.053 --> 00:20:46.953 Right, the suburbs of Chicago, which are like famously known for big mega churches. 00:20:46.953 --> 00:20:55.993 Or down South, you know, and a 200 person, 250 person church is a small community church. 00:20:57.513 --> 00:21:00.587 I still generally know everyone's name here. Yeah. 00:21:01.153 --> 00:21:08.554 So, you know, I think context probably makes. Yeah, like it's, you're not gonna, like trying to think on a. 00:21:10.673 --> 00:21:13.473 Like for instance, the largest National context is kind of hard. 00:21:13.473 --> 00:21:16.071 The largest church in the county here is like 500. 00:21:17.484 --> 00:21:23.694 That's a county of 100,000 people. But then it's like, it's that same thing of like 00:21:23.694 --> 00:21:31.537 the population, you know, that strange population density towards urban centers that like, you know, 00:21:31.618 --> 00:21:35.774 everybody starts kind of having to wrestle with around like election time and stuff like that 00:21:35.774 --> 00:21:41.874 because you're, you know, you might be confused why some states are conservative 00:21:41.874 --> 00:21:44.374 or why some states are blue or red, you know, 00:21:44.374 --> 00:21:48.094 but it's got to do with where the population centers sit. 00:21:48.094 --> 00:21:53.340 So it's a similar kind of dynamic of that, of like feeling like, oh, well the whole state 00:21:53.734 --> 00:21:56.674 seems to be representative of this type of individual, 00:21:57.112 --> 00:22:02.694 but because the population rests so heavy somewhere else, the majority experience of that state 00:22:02.854 --> 00:22:05.259 sits somewhere else in that area. 00:22:05.494 --> 00:22:12.983 So it's a kind of, maybe a similar kind of thing like that. But all that point, and maybe we'll look 00:22:13.054 --> 00:22:15.774 and see if we can't verify some stats or something on that. 00:22:17.430 --> 00:22:25.934 But I think my main point is being is that like, we're making normal certain church culture and experiences. 00:22:29.614 --> 00:22:35.453 Either through what more and more people attend and call and consider to be a normal church experience, 00:22:38.054 --> 00:22:45.694 or through social media, right? Because like now, you get to see more on your phone. 00:22:47.894 --> 00:22:53.614 And through maybe your computer or whatever, you see more of other churches 00:22:53.808 --> 00:22:55.213 than you probably do of your own church. 00:22:56.254 --> 00:23:01.134 If you're like heavily engaged in like Christian church social media. 00:23:02.854 --> 00:23:06.889 If you're constantly seeing like sermon clips or you're watching other people's sermons, 00:23:07.374 --> 00:23:15.639 you very well could be more exposed to churches that are not your church throughout the week. 00:23:16.557 --> 00:23:20.887 And if that's the case, you might become, you might be seeing, what you don't realize 00:23:20.887 --> 00:23:26.647 is that you're seeing kind of this, you're seeing a small segment of churches represented 00:23:26.964 --> 00:23:30.967 that's popping up on your media feed. 00:23:31.546 --> 00:23:35.804 And you might begin to see that that's, oh, well, that should be what I expect, right? 00:23:36.407 --> 00:23:43.607 I should expect, you know, a large service with all the trappings, and it should look 00:23:43.607 --> 00:23:49.254 like a concert, and it should feel this way, and the speaker should talk this way and dress this certain way. 00:23:49.367 --> 00:23:58.778 And so those expectations, I think, lead to compromises inside of who we want to be leaders. 00:23:58.886 --> 00:24:04.269 I think the belief, the myth is, is that like a church will grow if you get a charismatic 00:24:04.350 --> 00:24:06.767 leader up front. 00:24:06.767 --> 00:24:14.167 And you know, that's when people begin to prioritize, you know, churches when they're 00:24:14.167 --> 00:24:18.862 hiring for a pastor, they're like, well, we want to, we want to grow and be a big church, 00:24:19.384 --> 00:24:22.031 want to be a successful church. 00:24:22.967 --> 00:24:29.147 That means we should probably get a pastor who looks like on the outside, you know, whatever 00:24:29.147 --> 00:24:35.247 celebrity pastor they think is the best, you know, and that could look, that doesn't have 00:24:35.247 --> 00:24:40.127 to look, you know, that doesn't mean that they necessarily have really cool tennis shoes and 00:24:40.127 --> 00:24:46.238 look really hip. It could also mean they wear a suit. It can go both ways. Of, you know, 00:24:46.445 --> 00:24:52.447 oh, okay, we want someone who's like, very polished at speaking, looks and acts a certain 00:24:52.447 --> 00:24:58.127 way, is really charismatic, can really rally people. But what you've done is you've put a 00:24:58.127 --> 00:25:01.569 but a significant outward appearance and skill set, 00:25:02.287 --> 00:25:05.967 above inner character and qualifications. 00:25:05.967 --> 00:25:08.474 Yeah, charisma over character. 00:25:09.185 --> 00:25:09.473 Yeah. 00:25:11.714 --> 00:25:16.981 Yep. And usually what happens is that the Lord, the Lord will, 00:25:19.690 --> 00:25:23.471 the Lord will ultimately balance that scale. You know? 00:25:23.967 --> 00:25:30.664 Yeah. I find, or at least my experience is that the Lord will bring the level of, you know. 00:25:36.696 --> 00:25:39.351 He will bring the level, we will not like, 00:25:41.506 --> 00:25:46.226 he will match the level of our success with the level of our character in him. 00:25:47.417 --> 00:25:53.546 Like, it's not, you know, not like, I wouldn't etch that in stone tablets, right? 00:25:53.546 --> 00:25:59.746 But generally, generally speaking, right, we don't, I think I said this a few weeks ago in a sermon 00:25:59.746 --> 00:26:05.666 that we don't rise to the level of our, or the potential of our calling. 00:26:05.666 --> 00:26:08.806 We fall to the level of our abiding in Christ. 00:26:09.886 --> 00:26:17.404 So we will not rise to the potential of the calling that God has given to us, 00:26:17.486 --> 00:26:19.906 which is great because it comes from him. 00:26:20.146 --> 00:26:32.246 We will end up falling to the level of our personal abiding in him and then leading others out of the overflow 00:26:32.246 --> 00:26:33.725 of that abiding relationship. 00:26:34.006 --> 00:26:38.766 And so when I see clips like that that we just listen to, 00:26:42.486 --> 00:26:47.486 it makes me angry because one, I don't like. 00:26:51.326 --> 00:27:06.846 You know, it's a dereliction of duty, Yeah. But it's also a, it puts a very big blemish or spot on both the role of 00:27:06.846 --> 00:27:13.461 pastor and the, and the body of the church itself. 00:27:14.721 --> 00:27:40.486 Yeah. I mean, like, because like, um, these are, you know, there's a, there's a, I don't think we talked about this last week, but like, media in general, and social media, even more so than traditional media, um, gravitates towards what is shocking, 00:27:40.486 --> 00:27:49.286 controversial, angry, and it's the same, you know, it's the same thing that happens when 00:27:49.286 --> 00:27:52.526 people are driving by a wreck on the highway, right? 00:27:52.526 --> 00:27:56.446 Everybody slows down, they rubberneck, they turn, they're looking at, they want to see 00:27:56.446 --> 00:27:59.742 what's going on, and so those things get traction, right? 00:28:00.606 --> 00:28:05.946 And so a clip like that probably does really well on social media. 00:28:05.946 --> 00:28:13.386 Probably actually gains more watches, responses, and shares than somebody who actually does a 00:28:13.386 --> 00:28:19.664 really good job of preaching the gospel and, you know, pointing people to Christ, because 00:28:19.946 --> 00:28:21.806 Because that's not as shocking. 00:28:23.742 --> 00:28:31.912 It's not as like viral making, you know, and so it is, um, you know, I think one of the reasons that 00:28:32.069 --> 00:28:36.408 like, you know, cause I was thinking about this as we were getting ready. I was like, why, 00:28:36.723 --> 00:28:40.792 why are we going to talk about this? I was like, well, like part of it is, is because chances are 00:28:40.792 --> 00:28:46.632 you're running across not, if not that clip, you're running across clips like that. If you're 00:28:46.632 --> 00:28:52.312 like, um, and we got to think about them, we got to talk about them because they're, 00:28:52.531 --> 00:28:53.620 They're not going to go away. 00:28:53.872 --> 00:28:56.465 I think they're here to stay. 00:28:57.552 --> 00:29:02.952 You know, people are building, you know, whole kind of like platforms and reach and followers 00:29:02.952 --> 00:29:10.352 off of sharing content that is mostly just controversial or just like upsetting or inciting. 00:29:10.352 --> 00:29:16.072 Like the reel that we sent each other a couple days apart about a pastor who shoots an Easter 00:29:16.072 --> 00:29:19.340 bunny on stage on Easter Sunday. 00:29:20.177 --> 00:29:23.772 And then rants and raves about how we're not talking about the Easter money this morning. 00:29:23.772 --> 00:29:32.752 And then he has someone in a Santa Claus costume come and drag the dead Easter bunny and then he shoots Santa. 00:29:36.652 --> 00:29:42.692 What's going on here? I'd like, what is going on? I couldn't really see from the clip. 00:29:42.692 --> 00:29:47.772 Did he have like a gun and holster on him? Like a cowboy just like a cowboy that Texas flags 00:29:47.772 --> 00:29:53.332 Yeah, if I remember correctly and like and what's I think even crazier is that he got two volunteers, 00:29:54.612 --> 00:30:00.507 Dressed up in a Easter Bunny costume and Santa Claus costume. I'm just like what are, 00:30:02.190 --> 00:30:11.332 people Thinking so like and the fun, you know, I I will take this pot shot at that clip if you want to talk about 00:30:11.332 --> 00:30:16.297 about like idols in the church, like usurping Christmas, 00:30:18.812 --> 00:30:23.238 and Easter and like the commercialization of it. Don't do it on that day. 00:30:23.733 --> 00:30:31.601 Don't do it on that day. Or also take down the flags that aren't Christ from your church. 00:30:32.052 --> 00:30:40.192 There you go. Like an idol that like I would say seems to be that you're oblivious to is not the Easter bunny, 00:30:40.855 --> 00:30:45.104 but nationalism, you know, take that down. 00:30:45.912 --> 00:30:52.918 So that just infuriates me. Or do we want to talk about the Beatles clip? 00:30:53.332 --> 00:30:56.537 Sure, we can do that. Yeah, so there's, um... 00:30:57.761 --> 00:31:05.531 Clip you sent me was a large church, you know, kind of stereotypical, like. 00:31:06.665 --> 00:31:13.851 Concert-looking sanctuary, lights, and everybody's got these, like, glow LED, like, tambourine, 00:31:14.491 --> 00:31:18.411 shaker things, or, I don't know, light things that the whole crowd's got, 00:31:18.411 --> 00:31:28.211 And the worship team is up there, and they're like leading the congregation and singing, 00:31:28.211 --> 00:31:32.731 Hey Jude, right? And I don't want to sing the whole song or else we'll get like monetized 00:31:32.731 --> 00:31:38.891 banned or something. I don't think my singing is that good. But they're all singing, Hey Jude. 00:31:39.244 --> 00:31:44.611 And this wasn't a clip that like somebody took of this church and then like put it and said, 00:31:45.050 --> 00:31:46.971 Like, isn't this shocking at what this church is doing? 00:31:46.971 --> 00:31:52.331 This was a clip that church put together and said, hey, this is a thing we're doing. 00:31:52.331 --> 00:31:57.011 Like we're starting all of our sermons or all of our services during the summer 00:31:57.011 --> 00:32:00.991 with like our favorite summer tune or something like that. 00:32:00.991 --> 00:32:05.931 And that week they had done a Beatles song. They did Hey Jude as the opening song. 00:32:05.931 --> 00:32:10.051 And they kind of, so they just, the way they start all their services for the summer 00:32:10.051 --> 00:32:16.731 is starts off with singing some pop song that everybody loves to jam out to, 00:32:16.731 --> 00:32:18.116 and they're all singing. 00:32:18.386 --> 00:32:21.960 And then once they're finished singing whatever that song is, 00:32:22.023 --> 00:32:29.491 presumably they transition somehow into singing worship songs to Jesus. Yeah. 00:32:30.386 --> 00:32:36.091 And. You can tell that the crowd is really into Hey Jude. Yes. 00:32:36.091 --> 00:32:37.822 Like really singing. Yeah. 00:32:38.531 --> 00:32:42.651 I mean, it's not hard, nah, nah, nah, but like. But like waving the tambourines. 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:49.051 Yep. in the air, really singing, and then like, soon as the worship music starts, I mean, I don't know, 00:32:49.051 --> 00:32:51.811 As soon as the worship music starts, tambourines go away. 00:32:53.801 --> 00:33:02.578 So why is it bad? Why or maybe it's not that maybe we shouldn't just outright say it's bad. 00:33:02.931 --> 00:33:08.611 Why? I don't know like because I know I can I can hear the apologist for someone who would argue for 00:33:08.611 --> 00:33:15.331 that right like in my head I can hear someone say well like well like you know we've got people who 00:33:15.331 --> 00:33:20.131 don't know Jesus coming to this church and like we want to show them that Christians can have fun 00:33:20.131 --> 00:33:26.691 too, and they don't have to just be, you know, party poopers. And they can, you know, they can 00:33:26.691 --> 00:33:32.611 just they can enjoy a good Beatles song too, right? And so like, and, you know, summer attendance is 00:33:32.611 --> 00:33:38.317 normally low. And so we do, you know, particular sermon series and things like that to kind of like. 00:33:38.821 --> 00:33:44.851 Bring people in to continue to raise engagement and not just kind of, you know, just resign 00:33:44.851 --> 00:33:49.411 ourselves to letting summers be low attendance. Right? It's all in the name of reaching people 00:33:49.411 --> 00:33:57.811 for Jesus. Like I can hear that rhetoric. I can hear that explanation for it. I can even recognize, 00:33:57.915 --> 00:34:06.818 you know, some positive heart elements behind it. But for me, it conflates particularly like, 00:34:07.025 --> 00:34:13.858 and I even agree with a number of the sentiments I just said, but putting what is just mere 00:34:13.921 --> 00:34:20.681 entertainment that has no distinction between like what you would see at like a Beatles cover band 00:34:20.916 --> 00:34:29.651 concert and then putting it right next to worship? And what's the discernible difference 00:34:29.651 --> 00:34:32.611 and who can discern that difference. 00:34:32.611 --> 00:34:34.500 Certainly not an unbeliever. 00:34:35.787 --> 00:34:40.441 Like the ones you're trying to reach. Certainly it's not someone who's marginalized. 00:34:41.225 --> 00:34:46.117 Right. Because what is the difference? You have to have a theology of what's happening, 00:34:46.941 --> 00:34:55.637 in those two moments, and what's the difference? And what it does for me is it begins to pose a, 00:34:56.456 --> 00:35:01.157 even more critical and crucial and scary question is not what's happening during the 00:35:01.157 --> 00:35:06.818 the singing of Hey Jude, what's happening during your worship, whether you sing Hey Jude or not. Yep. 00:35:08.077 --> 00:35:12.391 Because if you're willing to put them that close to each other, is it just a concert? 00:35:13.357 --> 00:35:18.296 Is it just like, let's get people to sing and like feel something? 00:35:18.677 --> 00:35:26.637 Or is it something more sacred is supposed to be happening there than what's is happening? Yeah. 00:35:26.637 --> 00:35:28.797 And I find that really disturbing. Yeah. 00:35:28.797 --> 00:35:41.837 Yeah, I think it just runs parallel with just a lot of dangerous ecclesiology, a lot of 00:35:41.837 --> 00:35:49.037 dangerous understanding of what the purpose of the church in the world is, and whether 00:35:49.037 --> 00:35:55.727 or not, I think we could have a pretty long conversation about whether or not. 00:35:57.663 --> 00:36:03.113 The church should really work really hard to be culturally relevant. 00:36:04.307 --> 00:36:08.394 Yeah. Like how hard are we supposed to try and cross that bridge? Yeah. 00:36:08.826 --> 00:36:17.063 Which I think has been like a default assumption that we ought to for several decades inside of a 00:36:17.193 --> 00:36:24.634 significant segment of the church. And I think we've come pretty close to getting to the bottom of that well. 00:36:25.075 --> 00:36:34.233 Yeah. Yeah, because we see that we're not able to not cross lines. Church is generally not able to, 00:36:35.593 --> 00:36:44.073 not be now indistinguishable from the rock concert that you're at. 00:36:44.250 --> 00:36:46.153 Well, what is it that we're offering? 00:36:47.365 --> 00:36:53.593 Right. Are we offering Christ? Yeah. Is this Christocentric? 00:36:55.404 --> 00:37:02.313 And I agree with all the reasons you said, well, yeah, like what's wrong with having 00:37:02.313 --> 00:37:07.553 fun and singing a fun song and all that? Well, nothing. Right. 00:37:08.025 --> 00:37:09.915 Nothing is wrong with it. 00:37:10.753 --> 00:37:20.241 But when we put it parallel to the experience of worship, we don't elevate, hey, Jude, we cheapen worship. 00:37:21.951 --> 00:37:26.633 Yeah. So do it do it in the Sunday picnic afterwards or something. Yeah, I don't know 00:37:26.633 --> 00:37:32.313 I can't I can imagine context in which that would be appropriate. But yeah, I don't, 00:37:33.582 --> 00:37:35.086 Like what are we offering? 00:37:35.329 --> 00:37:38.515 Are we offering people entertainment or are we offering people Christ, right? So, 00:37:43.737 --> 00:37:58.773 Yeah Yeah, I mean I have a hard time with that because I generally the church that that happened in, I generally respect their leadership, their pastor, and 00:37:58.852 --> 00:38:07.893 think that he has a lot of good things to say and is usually misunderstood. 00:38:08.412 --> 00:38:17.733 In fact, his latest book, what the heck is it called? 00:38:21.096 --> 00:38:29.630 Don't know so I don't pay that much attention to him. I don't think anyway. He wrote a book is Andy Stanley irresistible, 00:38:30.466 --> 00:38:36.126 Something like that anyway, he wrote a book that he really got lambasted for. 00:38:37.507 --> 00:38:44.457 Because he Essentially called the church to task for its idolatry of the Bible, 00:38:45.312 --> 00:38:52.426 Now, you say that it's a thin line, a really thin line. 00:38:52.426 --> 00:38:57.746 Right, but we've talked about that. We've definitely talked about that issue. 00:38:57.746 --> 00:39:01.666 And how the church has put its authority in Scripture. 00:39:02.074 --> 00:39:04.487 And if you say that in any Christian church, you get an amen. 00:39:05.146 --> 00:39:18.986 The authority of God is the Word of God, the Scripture. And you said that here in the podcast, I think we actually have a little reel about it. 00:39:19.593 --> 00:39:24.586 That actually... Some people even got mad about. Yeah, some people got mad about, right? 00:39:24.985 --> 00:39:30.945 That our authority is not the scripture. Our authority is Jesus Christ. 00:39:31.906 --> 00:39:46.346 All authority on heaven and earth has been given to him. And so, he was trying to make a corrective of bringing people back to the center of the 00:39:46.346 --> 00:39:53.346 church is 100% under the authority of Jesus. 00:39:53.346 --> 00:39:57.852 Yeah, which is not like a... 00:39:58.066 --> 00:40:03.218 It's not a new theological nuance that's been around for a while. 00:40:03.786 --> 00:40:08.066 I think the other person who, at least in my mind, most famously kind of tried to make 00:40:08.066 --> 00:40:14.946 that distinction and sometimes gets misunderstood or lambasted for it was Barth. 00:40:14.946 --> 00:40:19.548 I think his understanding of Scripture and like, he kind of reworked. 00:40:20.817 --> 00:40:27.623 He was a theologian working in Europe during a very liberal part of theology, and he came 00:40:27.847 --> 00:40:36.167 up with neo-orthodoxy, which was an attempt to return to orthodoxy, but through a theocentric 00:40:36.167 --> 00:40:39.146 or a God-centric and Christ-centric framework. 00:40:39.467 --> 00:40:48.807 So it was a different type of systematic theology. So when he came and talked about the Bible, it was again, the Bible as not the Bible, 00:40:48.807 --> 00:40:55.547 It's not Father, Son, and Holy Bible, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and it's Christ as we 00:40:55.547 --> 00:40:59.410 know him through the Bible that we are submitting ourselves to. 00:40:59.627 --> 00:41:03.667 So but that, again, that's a distinction that... Yeah. 00:41:03.667 --> 00:41:13.627 So anyway, he took a lot of heat for that and continued to defend it. 00:41:13.627 --> 00:41:16.604 And so, and I think it's accurate. 00:41:17.307 --> 00:41:24.067 I think it's accurate. And I don't get the sense that he doesn't think critically or intentionally about the 00:41:24.067 --> 00:41:27.713 types of things that they do in service. 00:41:28.604 --> 00:41:34.187 And I think most would say, and even I would say this, that it's not, that's not like singing 00:41:34.187 --> 00:41:40.334 Hey Jude at the beginning of a worship service is not what I would consider to be a disqualifying thing. 00:41:41.107 --> 00:41:47.067 No. I think it's a leadership preferential thing probably. Sure. 00:41:47.067 --> 00:41:55.347 I just, I would never do it because I don't know that I would just could ever feel good 00:41:55.347 --> 00:42:00.107 about the theological implications of doing something like that. 00:42:00.107 --> 00:42:04.587 I think that's, at least in my mind, I think that's what he, Andy Stanley, has probably 00:42:04.587 --> 00:42:10.276 been accused of the most over the years. 00:42:10.947 --> 00:42:17.507 That line of like, how far do you go in order to be winsome? 00:42:18.729 --> 00:42:23.859 He goes pretty far. He goes pretty far. So that's, you know, he also has incredible. 00:42:26.696 --> 00:42:34.259 Influence. Yeah. Reach, you know, so, but then again, it's difficult to know the character of 00:42:34.259 --> 00:42:41.640 the man, you know, by all accounts, he seems to be a man of God and, you know, have pretty, 00:42:42.259 --> 00:42:47.939 tremendous character. I did meet him once. Oh, really? Had, you know, three minute conversation 00:42:48.076 --> 00:42:57.539 with him in a line at Catalyst West Conference out in California. He was one of the keynotes and, 00:42:58.555 --> 00:43:03.939 did a great job. And he signed my book, the same book I was just referencing. And we had a brief 00:43:03.939 --> 00:43:12.868 conversation with him. Seemed like a real genuine guy. But I'm hoping if we go to GLS, I can get a, 00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:20.499 get a picture with Craig Rochelle, who I also met out there once, but he trains jiu-jitsu now. 00:43:20.499 --> 00:43:28.262 So, Craig and I are like besties, pastor of jiu-jitsu. We should do like a podcast trade-off. 00:43:28.379 --> 00:43:33.579 We bring him on here and then he'll come on and we'll go on to his podcast, right? 00:43:33.579 --> 00:43:37.579 Let's go! Let's do it! Come on! That's not your talking. 00:43:37.579 --> 00:43:42.579 Our podcast is definitely as big as his. Not your talking. 00:43:43.017 --> 00:43:47.739 But anyways, it does like, I don't know, the face of what... 00:43:49.274 --> 00:43:54.644 Is what happens inside of churches, and it probably sped up because of. 00:43:57.970 --> 00:44:06.724 You know, I feel like pre-pandemic, it was kind of the norm for a church to have, 00:44:08.224 --> 00:44:14.084 at least an audio recording, right? Like, it was pretty safe to say that, like, any church, 00:44:14.084 --> 00:44:19.604 you went on to their YouTube or went on to like their, their web page, their website, you would 00:44:19.604 --> 00:44:26.564 find like an audio podcast of their sermon, of their sermons and their services. I think COVID 00:44:26.564 --> 00:44:33.736 and pandemic bumped that to now that like, everybody's at least got a bad video recording 00:44:33.862 --> 00:44:40.217 of their service, and usually in its entirety, posted on social media somewhere each week, 00:44:40.271 --> 00:44:45.524 that's now become like, you know, pre-COVID, you know, it was maybe like. 00:44:47.095 --> 00:44:51.204 You know, a 50-50 chance as to whether or not you were going to find video recordings of sermons on, 00:44:52.479 --> 00:44:57.364 a website. Now it's almost ubiquitous. You will find someone video recordings of things. And so 00:44:57.364 --> 00:45:02.183 now what is happening inside of churches is more and more visible than it ever has been before. 00:45:02.404 --> 00:45:13.535 For. I hope that with that comes some greater accountability, discussion, maybe some change. 00:45:14.404 --> 00:45:22.753 Hopefully. I hope that it doesn't become a cycle that just perpetuates itself where we, 00:45:23.204 --> 00:45:27.604 see more and more outrageous things, beget more and more outrageous things. 00:45:27.604 --> 00:45:33.133 Well, I mean, that ultimately is what has to happen, right? You. 00:45:34.717 --> 00:45:38.696 When you run in the norm of fairly outrageous things. 00:45:42.018 --> 00:45:49.527 You have to keep bumping the outrageous factor to hold control or hold attention of the crowd 00:45:49.527 --> 00:45:51.984 that you have gathered to see the outrageous things. 00:45:53.527 --> 00:45:58.132 I don't, does not mean, not my idea, don't remember who said it or where I read it, 00:45:58.465 --> 00:46:03.533 but somebody pointed out that like, what you win people with is what you win them to. 00:46:04.247 --> 00:46:13.527 Yes. Right? So if we're winning people to Christ with fancy songs, or crazy, outrageous sermon 00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:20.008 out illustrations, or a fantastic worship experience, that's what we're winning them to. 00:46:21.817 --> 00:46:28.647 If we win them with the gospel, with grace, with Christ, that's what we're clearly winning them to. 00:46:29.190 --> 00:46:38.887 And it's, I don't know, it's hard to say, like, I'm, you know, I'm not a sociologist, 00:46:38.887 --> 00:46:47.302 I don't have all the research, I haven't been to every church, haven't been around long enough. 00:46:47.924 --> 00:46:53.287 But what seems to me from my vantage point is that a large reason why we have so many 00:46:53.287 --> 00:46:58.887 people who seem to be walking away from the faith or deconstructing or trying to figure 00:46:58.887 --> 00:47:03.767 out like jumping denominations and things like that is because we have people growing. 00:47:04.047 --> 00:47:17.887 Up in really anemic churches. Churches where I think like whether it's a big personality, 00:47:17.887 --> 00:47:27.007 type of experience, abusive relationship that, or abusive leadership that's kind of a lens an 00:47:27.007 --> 00:47:34.767 air of authority or control or spirituality. And I think that lasts for so long. But then I think 00:47:34.767 --> 00:47:42.607 people eventually wake up, and they step out of it. And then they realize, like, I don't have much 00:47:42.607 --> 00:47:53.127 substance behind what. If I had to go to a church that didn't have a... let's say, 00:47:53.127 --> 00:47:58.007 like, people had to go to a church and they didn't have access to podcasts or 00:47:58.007 --> 00:48:04.247 YouTube, and you had to sit underneath preaching that was faithful, Christ- 00:48:04.247 --> 00:48:09.967 centric, biblically expositional, all the positive things, but it really just 00:48:09.967 --> 00:48:16.687 wasn't all that good. Like, if you know what I mean, like a solid, someone who delivers the 00:48:16.687 --> 00:48:21.087 message that God has given them to deliver, but they're just not a good public speaker. 00:48:22.033 --> 00:48:24.032 They're not that great. 00:48:25.914 --> 00:48:35.003 What if that was the church you had to attend Would your what would your what would happen to your faith in your relationship of Christ? It'd be really difficult, 00:48:36.563 --> 00:48:38.623 Yeah, I mean it would. 00:48:40.843 --> 00:48:47.803 Well, I mean, I don't know Like, you know, I want us I want to say like no like 00:48:47.803 --> 00:48:57.243 Like, because God is the one that develops our relationship with him, you know, and we 00:48:57.243 --> 00:49:04.763 can stay, we can abide with Christ, even in the midst of non-charismatic preaching or 00:49:04.763 --> 00:49:10.646 whatever, that we can still grow in our faith and still be, we're still discipled. 00:49:10.843 --> 00:49:21.521 So I would say, yeah, it would be maybe a much different experience, but I think you could still grow. 00:49:21.575 --> 00:49:23.141 Be a challenge, right? Be a challenge. 00:49:23.636 --> 00:49:30.289 And I'm not making an excuse. I don't think pastors should just say, like, oh, it doesn't matter that I'm a bad public 00:49:30.563 --> 00:49:36.599 speaker. No. I think they should strive to grow in that. 00:49:37.123 --> 00:49:41.902 But the question that the thing that I'm trying to drive at is I wonder, is we have people 00:49:42.003 --> 00:49:45.719 who are connecting with people's good public speaking, yep. 00:49:47.043 --> 00:49:55.513 And not Christ. Yep. And if they were forced to attend church that had Christ, that didn't have good public speaking, what would happen? 00:49:55.883 --> 00:49:59.105 Right? It'd be like, would people be moved? 00:50:00.083 --> 00:50:03.714 Would people be moved in discipleship or moved closer to Jesus? 00:50:04.803 --> 00:50:09.647 The same through sitting through one of your sermons as they would by reading the transcript. 00:50:11.083 --> 00:50:15.912 Because one, they're gonna get just the content, the other, they're gonna get the personality. 00:50:16.123 --> 00:50:17.929 Right, and I think that there is a difference there. 00:50:19.306 --> 00:50:19.203 Yeah. 00:50:22.603 --> 00:50:26.607 Where did we start the conversation? We started the conversation with just like, 00:50:27.763 --> 00:50:33.025 what is, I guess kind of just like opening up with like, what are the things that like, 00:50:33.260 --> 00:50:37.023 We send these videos to each other with some regularity. 00:50:37.023 --> 00:50:42.023 I see, you know, I spend any amount of time on social media. 00:50:42.343 --> 00:50:46.303 I'll run across one of these in a day, you know, of somebody acting this way. 00:50:46.303 --> 00:50:51.303 And question is, what do we do with these, I guess? 00:50:51.678 --> 00:50:59.618 Like, where do we process this? Yeah, I think that we need to say that even though, 00:51:00.582 --> 00:51:04.703 Even though they're right in front of our face. They're probably not the norm. 00:51:06.892 --> 00:51:11.375 Don't get discouraged when you see them Because, 00:51:12.032 --> 00:51:19.662 There are many many many faithful pastors. Yeah, who are not screaming at people. Mm-hmm, 00:51:21.764 --> 00:51:27.342 Who are not doing outrageous things in order to You know 00:51:27.417 --> 00:51:31.342 Entertain a crowd. Yeah, who simply want to bring people closer to Jesus, 00:51:32.782 --> 00:51:38.895 and And so when you see them, don't get discouraged, don't fall into the trap of thinking that. 00:51:39.382 --> 00:51:43.362 That's everywhere. That's everywhere, and that's the only thing that the church does. 00:51:45.262 --> 00:51:51.939 I would say this, let it move you towards praying for your pastor, for your pastors, 00:51:52.282 --> 00:51:57.022 wherever you go to church, wherever you're listening to, if it's, you go to Conduit and we're your pastors, 00:51:57.022 --> 00:52:02.211 if you go somewhere else and you have pastors there or a pastor there or whatever, pray for them. 00:52:02.522 --> 00:52:08.450 Pray that they would hear from the Lord, pray that they would be inspired, 00:52:10.082 --> 00:52:13.242 in their proclamation of the word, in their preaching, 00:52:13.242 --> 00:52:16.731 so that it would not just be a kind of like rote. 00:52:19.402 --> 00:52:20.502 Dry, 00:52:24.282 --> 00:52:28.522 just communicating, passing on content, but that it would, that there would be 00:52:28.522 --> 00:52:31.302 a significant portion of their personality that would shine through, 00:52:31.302 --> 00:52:33.642 that God's working through our personalities. 00:52:34.025 --> 00:52:44.459 And so, and then if you are getting into a place where you feel like those types of clips, 00:52:44.902 --> 00:52:50.222 on social media or whatever are really discouraging or really angering or whatever they are, 00:52:50.222 --> 00:52:54.226 I mean, it might be wise to take a break from that. 00:52:55.135 --> 00:53:06.642 You know? Yeah, I think before I was officially in ministry, I was younger, I hadn't gone to school yet, 00:53:06.642 --> 00:53:11.105 I was serving and volunteering in ministry, but I was beginning to encounter... 00:53:12.627 --> 00:53:24.797 Ministries and platforms where the whole ministry's job or idea or goal was to essentially call out, 00:53:25.464 --> 00:53:32.477 expose, or accuse false teachers, bad teachers, bad theology. 00:53:34.313 --> 00:53:41.357 Bad churches, and these things still exist. There's whole ministries that that is almost 00:53:41.357 --> 00:53:45.997 all that they do is that, you know, I can even think of churches that spend a significant amount 00:53:45.997 --> 00:53:54.557 of time, like, in their preaching and public-facing stuff, talking about other churches or other 00:53:54.557 --> 00:54:01.357 ministries that fail to be as faithful to Christ as they feel like they should be. And while I 00:54:01.357 --> 00:54:07.197 think, like, we've done, you know, and we will continue to do, you know, an occasional dive 00:54:07.197 --> 00:54:16.337 into and talking about other trends that we see in other churches and videos like this and all of that. 00:54:16.337 --> 00:54:24.077 By no means do I think, like, that's, neither of us want that to be a defining aspect of our ministry. 00:54:24.077 --> 00:54:30.597 Like, I came to the conviction that being defined by what I'm against is a terrible 00:54:30.597 --> 00:54:34.745 way to go about doing pretty much anything. 00:54:35.077 --> 00:54:40.757 And so ministries or teaching ministries that are oriented around what they are primarily 00:54:41.029 --> 00:54:49.397 against is, that's a pretty, that's going to lead you to minister in a particularly 00:54:49.397 --> 00:54:52.624 unhelpful way, in my opinion. 00:54:52.997 --> 00:54:53.497 And so. 00:54:54.316 --> 00:54:58.766 And so, some of these clips can kind of lead you into that path, and I'm not saying that 00:54:58.766 --> 00:55:00.708 we shouldn't ever be against things. 00:55:01.346 --> 00:55:04.714 Not saying that either. Like, we should be against certain things. 00:55:04.886 --> 00:55:09.638 But I want us to be, or at least I want to be a little bit more defined by what I'm for. 00:55:09.806 --> 00:55:14.004 I'm for Christ. I'm for following after Him, for knowing Him more. 00:55:14.058 --> 00:55:19.206 I want to dedicate time to promoting that message. 00:55:19.206 --> 00:55:25.086 And sometimes that requires that we talk about the things that are not quite in line with 00:55:25.086 --> 00:55:32.326 that. But if that's all I end up doing, like, I've never seen that bear good emotional and mental 00:55:32.326 --> 00:55:33.917 fruit in anyone's life. 00:55:34.169 --> 00:55:42.166 I've never seen anyone who's like, consistent intake was content that was calling out people. 00:55:42.166 --> 00:55:47.526 I can't remember what those ministries, there's a name for those types of ministries. 00:55:47.526 --> 00:55:55.046 Dog ministry is not the right thing, but contender, something like that, that kind of defines those 00:55:55.046 --> 00:55:59.606 types of ministries. Anyone who's like... They self-proclaim to be like an ombudsman of all 00:55:59.606 --> 00:56:04.886 churches and all ministries. Yeah. And anyone who drinks from those on a regular basis, 00:56:04.886 --> 00:56:09.503 I've never seen positive fruits of the Spirit born out of that. I don't see meekness, 00:56:09.766 --> 00:56:12.966 self-control, love, gentle, kindness. 00:56:13.590 --> 00:56:17.646 I don't see those things. I see anger and frustration. 00:56:17.646 --> 00:56:20.166 And so the same thing with these clips is like, 00:56:20.166 --> 00:56:28.446 if we are continually taking in things that just like stir us up with anger towards that. 00:56:30.164 --> 00:56:34.526 Like we need to be wise of what we're taking in. 00:56:34.646 --> 00:56:45.526 And also recognize too, to some of my philosophy of like social media argumentation, which is like 00:56:45.526 --> 00:56:49.706 Facebook is really well known for in the comments of any post ever in the 00:56:49.706 --> 00:56:55.460 internet is known for right that kind of that back and forth that arguing is do, 00:56:57.626 --> 00:57:02.906 you do you have a personal relationship with that person right do you have any 00:57:02.906 --> 00:57:12.465 context in which it would be appropriate for you to speak into their life And if you do, you should do it over the phone or in person and not over the social media. 00:57:13.066 --> 00:57:17.425 And if you don't have any context or relationship, you should probably just move on with your 00:57:17.586 --> 00:57:22.341 life. That's why we have guidelines for social media use here as a church, right? 00:57:23.142 --> 00:57:26.535 Yeah. Right. Cameron and I, particularly on our. 00:57:28.174 --> 00:57:34.424 I don't think in our private social media accounts or on the Conduit social media accounts like we're not, 00:57:35.052 --> 00:57:41.064 Out to pick arguments or no, we won't we just we just flat out won't yeah, we'll either ignore you or just delete you, 00:57:42.104 --> 00:57:45.152 like um you know, that's not. 00:57:46.710 --> 00:57:51.704 And we would have like but we'll have a conversation if you if we have a relationship with you. Yep, 00:57:52.489 --> 00:57:56.744 We'll talk about hard things. Yeah, just not gonna like do the tit for tat back and forth 00:57:56.744 --> 00:58:01.717 No, I'm not interested in defending myself against an unnamed username. 00:58:01.978 --> 00:58:01.717 Right. 00:58:02.744 --> 00:58:06.584 You know, and I think that would be wise. I suggest that as, 00:58:06.704 --> 00:58:11.064 submit that as wise counsel for anyone who's on the internet. Don't... 00:58:11.064 --> 00:58:18.504 Whether you're a pastor. Pastor or not, just don't argue with people on social media. It's, I've never met anyone who 00:58:18.504 --> 00:58:24.184 was like, you know, there was this one comment once someone made on the thing that I said, 00:58:24.184 --> 00:58:30.641 And and they convinced they changed my mind. Yeah, I've never met that person. Yeah, I, 00:58:31.793 --> 00:58:34.284 Don't think it happens. No, it doesn't know, 00:58:35.544 --> 00:58:39.584 Okay Well, we probably end for there. Yeah there today, 00:58:40.849 --> 00:58:46.458 As always, please like this Subscribe to it share it Download it, 00:58:47.628 --> 00:58:55.864 Rate it if you can do that if you have any questions for us that you would like us to tackle on the podcast. Our mailbag number is 00:58:55.864 --> 00:59:02.761 716-201-0507 and we'll try to do a mailbag episode here coming up soon. 00:59:03.256 --> 00:59:05.784 Yeah, so thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time. See you next time.