Dave Deveau

We talk to Dave Deveau (aka Peach Cobblah)!

Show Notes

Intro: Boz did not invent timezones, JetBlue, Gina makes an embarrassing mistake, Boz has to run her own job interview.
Let Me Run This By You: The world is coming to an end so do we still have to do yoga and stuff? Feminist Body Horror, Bros in Hollywood, Vincent Kartheiser, there's a FIGHT AT CO-WORKING!!
Interview: We talk to Dave Deveau about being a child actor, Are You Afraid of the Dark, D.J. McHale, the way we stigmatize the bodies of actors (incl. child actors), York University, the Toronto drag scene, Peach Cobblah, Zee Zee Theatre Company, and Carousel Theatre For Young People.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? How you doing? What's going on? Oh my God. I have a similar, I have a similar situation going, whatever that look was. Yeah, you go first. You go first. Okay girl. So, you know, I'm hustling, hustling, trying to get a job. And yesterday, so weird.

1 (49s):
I yesterday we finally miles and I finally figured out like, maybe I should just work at his company because there are good anyway, lovely people, whatever. So I just submit my resume and a cover letter for a job that I, that is supposedly open, write a great cover letter. Cause that's what I Excel at. I mean, anything else goes to shit, but I can really do a cover letter. So no, but so I sent it and then I get this call. Okay. So then I'm going to see in the car, our friend, Erica, our good friend, Erica. So I'm going to see her and we're going to take a walk and talk about this possible documentary. You know that you and I want to make whatever.

1 (1m 30s):
So I get five Ms. Calls from Miami and I'm like, what? I know no one in Miami, like Miami is like a place. I know no one. So I'm like, well, I'm not going to pick up. And finally I'm in, I'm in the drive through of the Starbucks and I make it a habit of not talking on the phone while I'm picking up my drink. So I'm like someone I'm like thinking someone's in trouble. You know? Like that's where I go. I'm like someone's in jail or my knee is whatever. So it's this woman. And she, you can tell, you know, like English is not her first language. That's fine. Like English is barely my first language anyways. So I'm talking, she's like, hi, we have an interview for you today at this company.

1 (2m 11s):
You know the company. And I'm like, oh, okay, well she's like, can you do it at 3:00 PM Eastern time? And I'm like 3:00 PM Eastern time to one to one that's that's noon. Right? Yeah. Noon. I, sorry. I had to do the thing. That's what you were saying. Oh no, no, no. It's noon. And I'm like any it's 1140 at the time or yeah, it's 1140 LA time. And I'm like, okay. So, so in 20 minutes she goes, no 3:00 PM. And I said, okay, just send me the invite. I'll cancel. So I canceled with Erica and then I'm waiting on the invite. And then I get the, I rushed back to put, throw some lipstick on and rush back to coworking to do the interview.

1 (2m 57s):
And I have like a, an invite from her that 5:00 PM LA time. Okay. So then I'm like, okay. So then I call this person and I'm like, Hey person. And then it is a comedy of mother. This is just like a tip of the iceberg of my day. Yesterday of motherfucking errors. She goes, no 3:00 PM. Your time is 5:00 PM. It became it. And then it was, it was so insane. And I'm like, listen, lady, am I supposed to jump on a call in five minutes? Do I click this in five?

1 (3m 37s):
Like at this point I'm shouting. I don't know what to do. And she's like, no, you're not letting me speak. I said, okay, go ahead. And she proceeds to say, I'm looking, I don't know what, she doesn't know that my husband works for the company. She goes, I'm looking at my boss's calendar and we have you. And then she starts talking about mountain time and I'm like, lady mountain time is an hour let later. And then she didn't understand. So I literally Gina, Gina, this is what I said I am. So I didn't know what else to do. It was like talking to a drunk, right. Or a person out of control or a crazy like, like I said, listen, ma'am ma'am I don't, I don't invent or make time zone.

1 (4m 26s):
I didn't know how else to. I said they are a thing that I cannot change. And she goes, what? And they said, here's the thing, like what you're saying? Is it actually making any it's not working? And I go, I don't, I didn't invent time zones. It's a real thing. And she just was quiet. And I said, okay. And I had her boss's email and I'm the kind of bad bitch now where I'm like, I'm just going to cut out. I can't do this. So I just don't have it in me. I'm old. And I'm, I'm just, I know my shit. So I'm like, thank you so much for your help. I got to go. And then I just emailed her boss and was like, listen, your assistant. And I are like having an epic comedy of errors, like time zone, garbage fire.

1 (5m 12s):
What do you want me to do? And she goes, oh, she wrote back and said, no, no, it's, it's one 30 your time, two 30 mountain time. And the other person on the call is in New York. It just, this is the working remotely different times, zones, English being a problem. And also like, I think that it's so interesting. I think the assistant was trying to be assertive and like hold boundaries and thought, I didn't understand that we actually had a fundamental problem about like math. Right, right, right. So then, and then this, and then I said, okay, so I got that settled. I said, I'm going to jump on this call in an hour then.

1 (5m 54s):
Yes. Okay. Then I get a call from the assistant again. And like, hi, she goes, I am so sorry. And I said, you know what it is. Okay. She goes, I, I said, don't even worry about it. I just, I couldn't. I literally said like, Gina, I couldn't take it anymore. Ma'am I had, I had to, I had to do something else.

2 (6m 16s):
Yeah. Yeah. I had to stop. It had though, we were just like Susan powder. We had to stop the insanity. It was just getting out of control. I had a similar comedy of errors with jet blue. Okay. Which is to say, go going back about, no, not even a month. Like actually it was only two and a half weeks ago. You know, we had this plan thing where Aaron was gonna take the boys to Utah and I was taking precedent for them. And I had a feeling that he never booked the tickets, but I didn't, I didn't put that fee.

2 (6m 57s):
It was one of those things. I didn't put it in the front of my brain. So we're sitting around and I go, what time do you leave on Saturday? He says, oh, I gotta look at my email. So he's looking, I could see the panic is going over his face. And long story short, he, he didn't book the tickets. And so I, I said I would do it, but the jet blue website was having a problem. So I would go, I would get everything all teed up. And then when I tried to book it, it would say there was a problem. Correct. So I did that four times.

1 (7m 27s):
They charged you four times. So

2 (7m 28s):
They charged my credit card. I mean like $15,000.

1 (7m 36s):
Yeah, sure, sure.

2 (7m 38s):
And so when the first time we called the guy, I said, oh, don't worry. The charges will fall off. Okay. And some of them did, the three big ones did, did fall off. But now it's, you know, it was a few weeks later and not all of them had fallen off. So I called JetBlue. And of course, whenever you call any company, the first thing they do is say, we are so grateful. You called, please don't call us. Please email us, please go to our website. Please talk door robot. So I did, I exchange, I started here. It was nice of me. And I, I agreed to be in line on a text.

2 (8m 19s):
So they were going to contact me when it was time to start texting with this person. So I'm getting notified. 45 minutes later, Helena is available to text me. So Helena and I are back and forth.

1 (8m 32s):
Hell

2 (8m 34s):
Yes. And she, it quickly, she quickly realizes that this is not, this is above her pay grade and I'm going to have to speak to a supervisor. So she tells me to call 1-800-JET-BLUE. And I said, well, Helena, we have a problem here because I did call when 800 jet blue. And it told me to text you, instead of calling, she says, no, you call this number. And, and, and that's a customer service I said, but your customer service. Yeah. But I can't help you. And we're just having this weird back and forth until, until finally I get a thing on the text that says, hello, this is Helena.

2 (9m 16s):
How can I help you? And I said, is this, I wrote back, is this a robot or a person I could get back? I am a person. Okay. Are you the Helena who couldn't help

1 (9m 30s):
God?

2 (9m 31s):
Or are you Helen or the supervisor? No answer. Are you both named Helena? It was so crazy. Anyway. So it's like

1 (9m 40s):
A fucking movie, right?

2 (9m 42s):
Solved. It got resolved. And then yesterday I see, I go up on my credit card and I see that they've been recharged. So I called Jack Lou. I wait on hold for one hour.

1 (9m 60s):
Sure. Oh, I ex

2 (10m 2s):
Calmly explain to the lady. And she, she asked me, does it, does, does the credit card show like a ticket number? I said, it just says American airlines, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I went, it's American airlines, not jet blue. I'm sorry.

1 (10m 26s):
Oh my

2 (10m 29s):
And her response was like, girl, I feel you like that is just what is happening in this world.

1 (10m 37s):
We are.

2 (10m 37s):
So like, I know every generation says the world is going to end, but in our case we really have a good case for beating out every

1 (10m 48s):
Yeah. Like it is. I have noticed. So like then yes, she and Gina, that is like a perfect thing of why the world is going to end. It's just because we're all, we're all doing that. And then, so I get on the interview with these two people and I'm not gonna, you know, bad mouth, a perspective employer. I will say they looked so whooped in not their fault. I'm not saying ugly. I'm not, but like they have been through it, like through it, sweatshirts, akimbo, like China,

2 (11m 25s):
You're wearing a sweatshirt habits, a Kimbo that's bad. Right.

1 (11m 29s):
It's a thing is a Kimbo. And the t-shirt under it's akimbo. And like, there's like half drawings of kids' stuff on the back wall. Like everything. I'm like, oh, wow, wow. I'm like presented. But I got like lipstick on I look and I'm like, oh, whoa, everyone needs a lot of help right now.

2 (11m 49s):
Yes.

1 (11m 49s):
Like a lot of help.

2 (11m 52s):
So how'd the interview go?

1 (11m 53s):
I a blast. I was like, okay, here's what you get when you get me, these are all my experiences. If there's a way to make it fit in your organization. Great. If not, maybe not like I that's how I said that.

2 (12m 9s):
I love that that's so wise.

1 (12m 12s):
'cause I, I have so much different shit in my background. And also I'm open to things. And also at the core of who I am is I want to work with people who are kind, but also efficient who are, have their shit together, but also are compassionate. And the kind of work is actually less important than that. And the pay rate.

2 (12m 37s):
Well, that's all true. But what I, what I feel so impressed by is that inherent in that was a decision not to do what you've probably always done in the past and what I certainly have exclusively done, which is, let me see what the need is. And then let me just contort myself to be, to meet their need, which never works like at like, no matter how many times it didn't work, I stood. That's still the approach that I took.

1 (13m 2s):
That's our manifesto link. That's the whole thing. And our manifesto it's like trying to fit into something. But here's the other thing, like literally when they started talking about the actual job, it was so vague. I, I, I don't, I didn't know what was going on. They were using terminology and like, part of it is that I don't know that world like comms, a lot of comms talk communication,

2 (13m 27s):
Vacations. Okay. What will you say the name of the company, but what does, what do they do?

1 (13m 33s):
It's like a tech company that like, but they're all over the world. It was started as a startup and just went public. They have a lot of good people, but like, I don't know their lingo. Right. So even if I knew the lingo, it was as if, I don't know. I dunno. I was just like, okay, so you, your description of actually what I'm doing on this call is so vague that I actually have to take over,

2 (13m 57s):
Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Communications was being thrown around a little

1 (14m 3s):
Calm,

2 (14m 4s):
This entire story. So far is just rife with terrible communication with this time zone thing and what they're communicating to you by wearing the Kimbo sweatshirts and that they can't communicate to you about what, what the job is or what they're

1 (14m 19s):
Doing and understand what Insane. And so, and also I think they do, they have a tremendous amount of clients and partners in the Ukraine, so that they're like, and they're doing really a lot of work to try to keep their workers safe. Obviously. I mean, it's not altruistic I'm they need worker, you know what I mean? But, but they're also really helping, but they just literally had looked like they'd been through a war. I was like, w

2 (14m 45s):
W

1 (14m 45s):
Wow. So basically I was like, okay, well, I need to take over this interview if there's going to be any kind of, any kind of anything. I mean, and so I just pitched myself. I mean, that's what I do all day, every day in Hollywood. So like, I it's a good at it. And it also doesn't fucking scare me. Like I, what is scary to me is auditioning. Sure. Callbacks. Yeah. Being on set horrified, but like talking to people in a meeting, what have I got to lose? I've done it 4,720 times. And also tangible things have not come out of it, but it doesn't. So it's not as though I've had a bad experience.

1 (15m 27s):
It's just like, I've had the experiences where like, I haven't seen the flowers yet of the seeds I've planted, so I'm not traumatized by it. I'm just sorta like, whatever. It's like, I'm at coworking anyway. So I can do this. I could do a general with you guys, you know, with you too. I will. Did they seem to feel reassured by quality to take over the okay. That's good. Yeah. And I, I didn't like say like, okay, I wasn't like, I didn't go whole hog, like crazy. Like, what's wrong with you? People, I guess I have to run this interview. It's more like, okay, well, I'm going to just do silence. Right. A lot of sense. And they looked at each other, like I, one just grabbed the other, I think, to come on the call, nobody knew it was happening.

1 (16m 12s):
It was when I said to the assistant, Hey, can we do this Friday afternoon too? No, they really want you on today. Today. It has to be. And I was like, really? Are you sure you're talking to the right person? They don't know what do they need me on today for? I don't know what's happening. So it was just an interesting, it's an interesting time, Gina. It's like a crazy fucking time. Let me run this by you. I'm really struggling with his life.

1 (16m 53s):
The world is ending. Do I really need to keep refreshing our download numbers on my web browser? Do I really need to like start doing yoga? I just feel like the world, but then there's this thing like you're describing it's humanity. That's the thing that always comes through in the end. I have to say, life finds a fucking way. Life runs away as garbage as people are, particularly men. I'm sorry to say, but it's true. Like men ruin everything as garbage as people are. There's also, and I guess as landscaping being a great example of a good exception, a good man, there's always people there who are ready to turn it around and do the right thing and make the better choices and, you know, Medicaid people who are out of control and their decision making.

1 (17m 40s):
We have to take comfort in that. Yeah. I mean, I, there is comfort. I think that it is. Yeah. And it reminds me of like this sort of Adam McKay stuff of like, I mean, I haven't seen all of don't look up, but like, you know, I think through art, there's gotta be a way to, to like help in some way. Like I was just, I I'm thinking about like, yeah. Humor, humor, helping. The other thing that I have stumbled upon is I think, okay. So I wrote, I have a friend, a guy friend from Chicago, who's a director and he moved to LA and he's hilarious.

1 (18m 23s):
And he's like me married to someone, not in the business. He's like a normal guy. Right. And so he's, he's like, he wants to direct horror. He's a commercial director, but he wants to do horror. And he's like, do you have a horror film? I'm like, well, no, I don't have a show. He wants to strike to horror short. But then I wrote this piece called the weight of breath about my body. Right. And, and he's like, oh, this is body horror. And I was like, what? It is a whole new genre, feminist fucking body horror where it's a genre. And I was like, oh my God, I'm obsessed. So it is like,

2 (18m 57s):
That's very much was in your piece that you wrote, explain it to me more than,

1 (19m 1s):
Okay. So I didn't know it existed. So this, it all kind of coincided. So I talked to this guy, Justin, who I adore and I said, and I said, well, I could send you the only short, short I have. That's written that I wrote for a submission and didn't get anywhere. Sure. I'll send it to you. Whatever. It's about a woman who is covered in Spanx, can't breathe, get broken up with grabs a huge pair of scissors and starts hacking away at her at her Spanx. And then you think she might kill him. And then he leaves, okay. By a fat lady that, that like has a breakup kind of anyway, he's like, oh, you're like one step away from her. And that she just needs to, it's the way we'll shoot it. And she'll hurt herself a little bit while she's, you'll see blood.

1 (19m 44s):
And also the Spanx metal we'll dig into her body and you'll see like a puncture. So that is body horror. And I was like, oh, I'm all in. And the, and the impetus for that short was I was on set. I don't know if I ever talked about this. I was on set. I was cast in something as a nurse. And I had S and the, and the costumer said, you're going to wear Spanx right in under my

2 (20m 12s):
Scrubs. Yeah.

1 (20m 13s):
I was like, okay. So I bought this special pair of Spanx that I did not try on before I got to set that had metal, ribbing, metal, ribbing too small, but now I'm in them and I'm on set and I'm already petrified because I'm petrified and they start cutting. It broke loose of its binding. And the metal started cutting into my stomach and you

2 (20m 36s):
Couldn't sit

1 (20m 37s):
Down and I couldn't sit down. And I couldn't, I couldn't tell anybody because I was so embarrassed. And I told this to Justin and I couldn't and I got home and I had a huge gash that was infected in my stomach, my area of most self hatred, my belly, my gut. And it was bloody and it was bruised. And I thought, oh my God. So that's body horror. Right? And like, the way you tell that story is feminist body horror. And I'm like, oh my God. And I think Gina, it's going to be, well, what I'm wondering is, is it the only way that women get to express themselves in Hollywood is by making like body horror.

2 (21m 17s):
First of all, having a body is a horror, correct? I mean, do you know that that's a great premise for a whole pardon? The pun, big body of work? Because I think about that with relate, with respect to being fat. But I also think about it with respect to being old aging, Aging is such and, and being fat. And aging is like such a horrible combo because young and fat is a different thing than old and fat. Right. Older fat is just like, that has this positive connotation.

1 (21m 57s):
Also you could, there's underlying is that you could always lose it. You're young enough to lose it. There's

2 (22m 2s):
Still time. Right.

1 (22m 4s):
And it's not like it's not body positive, fat, positive movements are like taking hold, but old and fat. No,

2 (22m 11s):
It's all. Yeah. Yeah. I always often wonder do the body, body positive folks know that the biggest thing they have on their side right now is that they're young and fat as opposed to anyway. So to answer your question. Yeah. I'm sure that is the only way. And I mean, our only way in as women to anything that has been traditionally closed off to us is violent. Right? I mean, that's the only way we ever get into anything. And we always have a lot of casualties in the fronts of these feminist wars, you know, the sexual revolution. I mean, not that it didn't happen always, but you know, more spotlight on the free love movement meant that women were the casualties of a lot of sexual abuse and rape pregnancy traumas, all this kind of stuff.

2 (23m 1s):
Yeah. So, but you know, like you did in your beautiful blog, posts people, if you haven't read it, please go to our website and read Jen's posts. Luckily for us, we're really, we're really familiar with this horror. We're really familiar with this pain. And if we can turn it into art, then, then I hesitant, I hesitate to say will have been worth it, but at least we can do something.

1 (23m 30s):
Well, I'm going to turn it. Yeah. I want to turn it into money too. That's where it makes people pay. I mean, that's the pocketbooks way, which is why, like I'm getting a job outside of this industry first to be like, okay, I'm studying that, did it. And how they did it. One their bros. And they'd probably, it's all nepotism. But also if that's not the case, they started an advertising, nothing to do with Hollywood, but Hollywood, but not Hollywood per se. And they, they made money that way and then sunk it into their own projects. And then they were able to, and they made contacts in the advertising industry.

1 (24m 12s):
That's how so many bros have done it in Hollywood. So many bros

2 (24m 15s):
That, that the Genesis of that is so beautifully displayed in mad men. You see the character, I forget the name of the character that Vincent CHRO Heizer with Where he, you know, he, he, I just remember he gets involved in hire a campaign for the sport of Jai Alai and he starts, there's something about it's going to be on television and you just see him getting so sucked into the Glen. I, you know, it's, it's an, it's an undeniable glamorous draw for people who are not in the industry. Like, Ooh, everybody thinks it's glamorous to be on TV. And yes.

2 (24m 56s):
And people in advertising are like the perfect blend of, you know, cutthroat and creative. Maybe a little bit. And yeah. Anyway.

1 (25m 6s):
Yeah. I mean, I, I like doing yeah. That, that my blog post was completely completely w started by that. Like, because I'm one nosy too quick, three know my way around. And my memory's great. And know my way around research. I literally saw names did this, did this, did that, did this?

4 (25m 41s):
I don't know. I think there's a fight. What? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the, it's the

1 (25m 51s):
Guys, it

2 (25m 51s):
Seem like it's inside the building.

1 (25m 53s):
Oh, it's two coworkers. It's two people at co-working and there's a guy there's a movie maker on the left and a, a professor on the right. And they got into it

2 (26m 4s):
About Ukraine. Probably. They're probably talking about that.

1 (26m 7s):
And they might be, I dunno, anyway, that's what's forgive me anyway. No,

2 (26m 10s):
No,

1 (26m 12s):
Whoa. So, okay. So, but it was, I just couldn't research and put it together and I'm like, okay, who are these people? What are they doing? Oh, they did this. Oh, and look, look, look, look, look, look, of course people are like, well, someone was like, well, you know, you know, at one it's bad for business to talk shit about the industry. And I'm like, oh, okay. But there is no business. I have no business. What business do I have? I don't

2 (26m 35s):
Have any said that. Like, you shouldn't write

1 (26m 37s):
That. Like, like, like you want to be careful. And I was like, okay,

2 (26m 42s):
Well, it's never as if that's ever

1 (26m 43s):
Worked. Also. I said, lady, it was a woman too. And I said, listen, I have no work. There is no work. What am I, what do you mean? I won't get hired. I'm not getting hired. Not I, this is not no, like that doesn't even make any sense. It holds no water. Cause it's just, it's not true. And you know, I won't be hired if I'm dead because I stifled myself and then have a heart attack. You know what I mean? So anyway, that people say all kinds of stuff, but I also know that it is a bigger problem. I guess that's what I'm saying. It's not about these 2, 3, 2 dudes in an assistant at a table. And it is about the dues and the assistant at a table.

1 (27m 25s):
It's a much larger problem. So I I'm well aware that, that these three dudes are not the whole problem because people are like, you know, maybe they're nice. I'm like, oh my God, you're missing the fucking point.

2 (27m 41s):
You're missing the point. I'm

1 (27m 43s):
Nice too. I don't have a fucking job with an a, or a script with my name on it.

2 (27m 47s):
And we have all internalized patriarchy to such a degree that like, we miss it when it's gone. I, that group that I left. Oh yeah, it has gone. You know, I'm still, I'm still a member of the group, even though I'm not, you know, in any type of a leadership position because everything okay.

1 (28m 2s):
Yeah. Everything is okay.

2 (28m 4s):
Okay. The first thing that happened when the majority of us left is a bunch of men or like a few men came in to, it was an all female board and now it's, there's there's men on it, which is fine. And the, one of the first things they did was they re-instituted, do you know what Robert's rules

1 (28m 26s):
Is? No, what's that,

2 (28m 28s):
It's like a way of conducting a meeting where you have to have motions and seconds and all of, you know, it's

1 (28m 34s):
Is it like a business meeting in a 12 step group? Have you ever done?

2 (28m 39s):
And I, I dunno. Okay. Well sure. And I, and on the face of it, I understand it's, it's meant to be, it's meant to ensure that everybody gets to speak their mind and you know, and it, and it's meant to be, you know, it's meant to promote cohesion, but it just something about it. It's like, Robert's for like, that's what came in. It's just Robert's rules. It's just

1 (29m 8s):
Gross.

2 (29m 9s):
And it's, and, and, you know, and the organization is just gone. It's as it's as if our whole tenure, there was a fever dream and they all went like that was weird. And they just moved right back to where it all was

1 (29m 23s):
Before. Right. That's really sad. That's super sad.

2 (29m 26s):
It's sad. And I feel like in the same way that a group of humans will always look for a leader, a group of humans will always look for the, a man to be in charge. Right? It's it's, it's so deeply embedded in our DNA

5 (29m 55s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Canadian playwright, Dave devote a K a peach cobbler has drag queen alter ego. If you watched a television show in the, I think it was in the early nineties called, are you afraid of the dark? You probably saw Dave because he, in addition to being a playwright and a drag performer and an actor, he wasn't child star. So David's warm and funny and look just really a breath of fresh air. So please enjoy our conversation with Dave Devoe.

6 (30m 40s):
So

2 (30m 44s):
Anyway, Dave dissolves, congrats. Wait, actually, I have to phrase this differently for the first time I'm asking Dave devote. Did you survive theater school? Did you go to theater

7 (30m 54s):
School? Parts of me did.

2 (30m 57s):
But you went to theater

7 (30m 58s):
School? I did. Okay. Okay.

2 (30m 60s):
Good.

7 (31m 2s):
I'm like, what are you talking about?

2 (31m 4s):
Yeah, we have, we've had just one person who she actually, more than one person. People have different conceptions of what theater school is. And some people do a theater major and they don't know the difference between that and the conservatory. I couldn't care less, but I just didn't know for certain with you. So congratulations. You did survive theater school, but what, see what you're going to say more about you've survived parts of it?

7 (31m 29s):
Well, no, like I think like parts of me survived, right? Like I think, I think we, we all come out of theater school, like a slightly different assembly of parts than we come in. And I think for some people that's great. And I think for some people that's super detrimental. So we'll see where we all fall on that stuff.

2 (31m 47s):
Part of you was a casualty,

7 (31m 52s):
You know what, oddly enough, the, the actor part of me with, I think, was a casualty, like, because I sort of came to theater school from a very let's start at the beginning. I was a child actor in film and TV from a young young age. And so then sort of went to theater by starting in film and TV because theater felt, you know, like a really safe, lovely community-driven space. But, but I think what theater school gave me is like, I came into theater school thinking I'm going to be an actor. And I left knowing I would be a playwright for my life.

7 (32m 35s):
Yeah. So that was a good, first

1 (32m 37s):
Of all, back back it up Child, we've had one other child star Jonas Avery was on, but, but he went theater and then film and TV and back to theater school. So tell us you really, how, what happened there? That,

7 (32m 54s):
Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's a bit bizarre. I was, you know, a sort of theatrical, precocious child and there, you know, and I was really into like, we, we go see a lot of theater growing up, but not a lot. I mean, we, but my parents don't come from the arts, but they were like, let's expose our kids to interesting things. And then I was, I must've been in like kindergarten grade one, something like that. And there was a teacher's assistant in our class who spoke to my mother saying my mom's an agent and your kid is really like vivacious. And do you think that's something he'd be interested in? My mom was like, I don't, I have no idea what you're talking about.

7 (33m 38s):
So anyway, we met with her and, and my mom's like, is this like, is this something you're interested in? I was

1 (33m 44s):
Like, sure, let's do it. Let's

7 (33m 45s):
See what happens. And, and so I just started doing like a lot of commercials, you know, when, like when I was a little, little one and then my mom was great as far as just really constantly checking in of like, is this fun? Like, is this a thing you'd like, because I mean, I don't think it was fun for like schlepping a kid around to endless auditions. That's not fun.

1 (34m 7s):
She knows

2 (34m 9s):
My kid. It's not fun. Wait, I have to time out one second, Dave, your, either your microphone here, it is sometimes

7 (34m 17s):
Just hold it. Cause

1 (34m 18s):
It

2 (34m 18s):
Hits your shirt and it makes up, sorry, please continue.

7 (34m 22s):
Yeah. So, so you know, okay.

1 (34m 26s):
So wait, wait, wait, I can, I can start us up with what you just said was super interesting when you met this person, were you thinking like, oh, this is an agent like, or were you just like, what was going on in your brain?

7 (34m 39s):
What I was thinking? I think it was more, you know, they're like, I think that the, the idea of like being on camera is really novel to kids because I think it's very different now. Like we live in a social media age, but like in the late eighties, early nineties, whenever that, yeah, probably like late eighties at this point, that's like, that's a cool thing. You know, we don't even have a big camcorder at home. Like this. I can be what in front of a camera, let's try that. So it was great. And, and then when we, when we moved, we had to move a lot for my dad's work. And so, but we kept moving to like bigger and bigger film, TV hubs, right?

7 (35m 20s):
Like, so when we settled in Montreal, I, the agent I'd had in Calgary had sort of forwarded us to an agent in, in Montreal. And, and then I started actually going out for like, like real stuff, like films, and then I booked a series and then it was, oh, we're doing this. Okay. And so

1 (35m 42s):
How old were you when you booked a series? Like that's, everyone's dream by the way that in LA, right. So

7 (35m 47s):
Yeah, I will, the first

1 (35m 51s):
Season, first series I

7 (35m 53s):
Would have. Oh God, that's a great question. I was probably like nine or 10. I might've been like, I might've been 12 by then.

1 (36m 4s):
And you were series regular, like

7 (36m 6s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's

1 (36m 7s):
So, but I mean, it's,

7 (36m 11s):
It sounds like it's way more work than it is because, so do, do you remember the Nickelodeon show? Are you afraid of the dark?

1 (36m 18s):
So that

7 (36m 19s):
Was, that was the show. So I was part of the campfire, which so yes, I'm a series regular and I appear in every episode, but it's like, there's a scene at the beginning. There's a scene at the end. We shoot the whole like season in like three weeks.

1 (36m 33s):
Right.

7 (36m 34s):
So it's not

1 (36m 37s):
Awesome. Yeah, because that's a show where like, yeah, you, you, the kids, and then you go into the story in the middle. Right. The actual story. That is fantastic. What was that like for you?

7 (36m 49s):
Th that series was, was incredible because I mean, a, I was a huge fan of that show. So I actually got cast at first. I got cast in one of the episodes, like in the story, not the campfire and had a real blast. And, and then I thought, wow, are you for the dark? This is amazing. We shot it. And then the series was done. It got canceled. And I thought, oh, okay, well, I'm glad I just snuck in there. So then two, three years later, they announced that they were going to bring the show back. And I called my agent immediately saying, if they're casting campfire, you have to get me in there.

7 (37m 29s):
Like, please, please, please, please, please I'll do anything. And she said, yeah, yeah, I'm trying. And they wouldn't see me. And I was, I was livid. And then I called us, like, sneak me in for callbacks. Like we know this casting director, she cast me before, like, please just get me in there to like, you know, all of my child, actor, friends, like went and had their callbacks. I had nothing. I was so angry. And I was like, can you sneak me in with like the girls? Cause like first they did the boys. Like, can anything please

1 (37m 55s):
Hustler, man, you're a hustler.

7 (37m 58s):
I love that show like so much. I don't know. And, and I mean, that is not, I'd never hustled for any other thing ever, but I was just, so it just felt like it's a sign. I, you know, it's, it's coming back and I just had this thing and I had such a great rapport with like the producers and the director and blah, blah, blah. So months go by and I'm, I, you know, I'm sad and I move on and then I get a call from my agent saying, they, you know, you're, you're coming in for a meeting. It's like a meet a meeting. Like, what does that mean? What's a meeting. We've never had a meeting.

1 (38m 31s):
Right. What is a meeting?

7 (38m 32s):
But it's at the, it's at like the casting directors office. I'm like, okay. So we go in and there's, you know, DJ like DJ and Ned that the creators, the producers. And they're like, Hey Dave, Hey guys. And they said, you know, You, you you've been really trying to like get in the room, haven't you? Like, I was like, oh God, that's this mortifying. Like I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, and they said, you know, well, we, you know, we had to, we had to audition a bunch of people, but, but we wrote a role in the series for you.

7 (39m 12s):
And they were like, so what do you say? Like, like, is this, am I being punked? Like what's happening right now? So,

1 (39m 21s):
Oh my God. I just feel so. And I just want to say, I don't think there's any coincidence that it was in Canada where people are fucking nice.

7 (39m 30s):
Right? Yeah.

1 (39m 32s):
Anyway,

7 (39m 34s):
This is a

1 (39m 34s):
Dream

7 (39m 35s):
And what happened? And, and then, you know, suddenly it was, I was off to like, we started about a month later and it, it was shot in Montreal. Like the whole series was always shot in Montreal. And, and so we did the first season and I thought, well, that's exciting. And then suddenly they were like, Hey, we're flying all of you to New York. You're going to host Snick. I was like, I don't know what that is. We don't get Nickelodeon in Canada. Like, so they suddenly, we were in Manhattan, like shooting all this promo stuff and there were billboards and we were like, what is going on? And that was, so that was like, really, I mean, you know, I did a bunch of like real garbage, like movies and things, but that was like my one little sort of touchdown in like, oh, is this, what is this?

7 (40m 17s):
What fame is like

1 (40m 18s):
Stars to be a star. And I

7 (40m 20s):
Felt a bit uneasy about it truthfully. Like I was like, I don't know that that's I could see, I could see myself on that track and I could see what that probably would be for me. And I think I worried a bit about what that would, what that would

1 (40m 38s):
A lot about that. We talk a lot about that, about like, if I had gotten famous right out of theater school, I'd be dead. I mean, I would probably have done so many drugs and then been so interacts. Like I would have killed, I would have died at

7 (40m 50s):
Some point.

2 (40m 52s):
So what does that mean? I'm projecting ahead. Does that mean your eventual move into theater was a way of stepping back from the insanity of television?

7 (41m 5s):
I mean, I wonder like, it's interesting. Cause I shouldn't say that I sort of discovered theater. Like they were happening in tandem. I was doing community theater, you know, I do like the community musical in the small town where I lived and then I'd say, Hey guys, I've got to go away for three weeks to shoot. Are you afraid of dark? I'll be back and I'll resume my role. So,

1 (41m 26s):
So

7 (41m 27s):
I think, I dunno, I think so. So, okay. So, so the show happened and then I was, I was going to a fine arts high school in their creative writing program because originally I wanted to audition for the drama program, but I had, I was already on, are you afraid of the dark at that point? And so they were like, okay, but if you have to go shoot it, like you can't just not show up for drama classes for weeks at a time. Like that's not, that's not a thing. And so I was like, oh, that's a solid point. So, but I could do that in, in creative writing because it's like, I was a studious kid. I was like, I will get everything in on time. I will fax in every assignment from Stax facts. Yeah. Right.

7 (42m 8s):
So, so towards the end of high school, I knew by then through this creative writing program was really when I, because we were writing in every genre, but I kept going back to playwriting because it was like dialogue, dialogue. I get this, like I come from film and TV. Like I get this, this is how I see the world and hear the world. So I started applying for theater schools and then, and then got cast, I got offered another series.

1 (42m 38s):
Are you fucking the greatest fucking story I've ever heard?

7 (42m 45s):
And I, and I, then this is not self-deprecating. I think I'm a, I think I'm a good play. Right. But like, I've never been a good actor ever, like, but it was a time and place where there were roles for like a vivacious fat kid. I was much bigger as a kid. And I was it like, I was that kid,

1 (43m 2s):
Right?

7 (43m 4s):
Yeah. So it's like, there were a lot

1 (43m 5s):
Of, you had a niche and

7 (43m 7s):
You really

1 (43m 7s):
Did.

7 (43m 8s):
Yeah. So it was like, I knew that, you know, oh, you're shooting, there's, there's a film coming to town about a soccer team. Right. And they're going to cast a bunch of kids, that's you? There's a fat kid role. Sure enough, there I have.

1 (43m 21s):
Well, let's talk about that because that's really interesting to me and really, I mean, I also, I was an overweight kid and I'm plus size lady now. And I know that. So tell me about that. Was there an I was there, did you have feelings about being that kid?

7 (43m 37s):
It's interesting. Cause I don't, I don't know that I had them in the moment, but my God have I had them since I, years, years later, I was in a, like an emerging filmmaker program for the queer film festival in Toronto. And I made this short film called belly, which was all about like, not, you know, not just being like, like coming of age as like a chubby gay kid and like their staff attached to that. But specifically coming of age as a chubby gay kid on camera and being chronicled as such and like, and having like, and then, you know, we edited together footage of all of these things.

7 (44m 17s):
Like, like things that I was like, I can't even believe they asked like an eight year old kids to say that on camera. Right?

1 (44m 23s):
Like, like stuff about your weight and stuff

7 (44m 26s):
Pan to this character. Anyways, we're filming this guy ends up in hospital. And so I'm the kid in the bed next to him. And he starts like chatting like, oh, Hey, what's your name? Oh, I'm Stan. Oh, what are you doing in the hospital? Oh, I'm fat. Oh, but like, what else is wrong with you? No, nothing. I'm just fat, but my parents think there's something else wrong with me. Cause I'm so fat. And I was like,

2 (44m 47s):
Wow,

7 (44m 50s):
Like how, like how potentially lethally damaging that could be. Right.

1 (44m 55s):
Did you just compartmentalize it or?

7 (44m 58s):
Well, cause I think I was like, I'm on set with like, I mean, you know, a bunch of friends who I knew, like we'd done a bunch of films together. In fact, Ryan Gosling was in that movie with us back when he was, you know, a young kid, Burt Reynolds was in it. Like, it was just like, we're doing this fun thing, but also, huh. So

2 (45m 18s):
Yeah, there's, there's just no attention paid even w cause my son is also gets called in for those roles. He only gets called in for the bully. That that's the only role he ever gets called in for it. And when he gets cast, I just feel like it starts with costume fittings. It, the otherness, the separateness starts there and it's like, they're, they're calling me back. Is this really his like, I can't are these really his measurements? Yes. These are really his measurements. Okay. And then, and then inevitably it's something like we had to, we had to, it was hard to find pants, that kind of thing and saying that to him and or in front of saying it to me, but in front of him,

7 (46m 2s):
But isn't this like, isn't this your job? Like, isn't your job finding clothing for bodies. Yeah,

1 (46m 8s):
It is. And, and, and, and I, I, yeah. And as an actor, I have the same thing. So I find that if I had been so traumatized by, by the, not just the words on sets and ER, intelligent film, but also as an actor by the crew and by the especially wardrobe and makeup and hair and, and anyway, so you compartmentalize that part of it and you also, it sounds like no one was like, mean to you to your face. Like they weren't like, oh, we can't find clothes for you. Or,

7 (46m 41s):
I mean, I, I think they were a bit, but I, but I think I was really sheltered by like really good parents. Like, and I mean, you know, cause, cause I was in, there were the kids on set who had like, you know, that stage parent who like really is there to make sure their kid is successful and make sure that kids like that. And that was not the energy I had. Like I had, you know, like my mom is, is a refugee. Like she came to Canada as a refugee. Like she grew up in a very particular context and this is a very different context where she's like, I'm just here to make sure no one is fucking with my kid. Like, and not in like an aggressive way, but just in like, okay, let's, let's walk away from this conversation.

7 (47m 23s):
We don't want to do that. So I felt I was very taken care of in that sense.

2 (47m 28s):
So you, what, describe the bridge between doing all of that and then when it's time for college and you're looking into acting program or at the beginning, that's what you were going to do as an acting program.

7 (47m 40s):
Yeah. Yeah. So I applied for a bunch of programs, like determined that I was going to be that, you know, conservatory actor. And like, I, I look back at it now and it's so funny. It's like my, like I'm trying to sort of rationalize what my 17 year old brain, like how I chose, who I applied to. It's so confused. Like I I've applied for Juilliard like two or three times in my life, but like no other, like, but it's like Juilliard and then like the local college in my town.

2 (48m 13s):
Interesting.

7 (48m 13s):
Interesting. Like what's the Juilliard connection I have anyway. I probably someone told me once probably that Juilliard was the place and that really set in somehow. So I applied for a bunch of theater schools and there was one program in particular that I was curious about because they have a conservatory program and they have a playwriting stream and they also had what they, at that time called creative ensemble. So like devised theater. And I thought like that there's something in that maybe that's a thing. So, so I got accepted to that school and that, that school is a funny way.

7 (48m 54s):
It's called York university. It's just outside of Toronto and, and I mean, I'm sure there are many theater schools like this, but at that school, like everyone starts in first year in sort of a general, like all the theater students, you don't, you don't start your conservatory till second year. So you have your first year to do some shit and then you re audition for the streams. So I went there pretty determined that I really wanted to see the conservatory stream. And then there's something about the, like, you know, my acting and movement and voice classes in first year that I was like, I, I think the writing was like kind of on the wall there of like, I'm not great at this.

1 (49m 39s):
Okay. So say more. Yeah, yeah.

7 (49m 41s):
Yeah. Like I, because I mean, I think, you know, filming TV was such a fun thing for me that I was like, this needs to be fun. And like, I think it was like, I have to learn how to work in a very different way than I think my brain, or even like how weird and disconnected from my body. I am these years. Like more than I'm prepared to do.

1 (50m 10s):
Where you at with your body in that, in terms of when you started that school, like had you sent out or like, were you still in

7 (50m 18s):
Like, like many of us, like, you know, you thin out and then you don't and then you thin out again. Sure. Cause I know that between, between my first season of our, for the arc and my second season, I lost a ton of weight. And so when I showed up for fittings the second year, there was a bit of panic in the room of like, we don't know, like, Ooh, like you're, you're like the fat country bumpkin kid, like, Ooh. Hmm. So they, they padded. Yeah. They just like, they, they put they'd put me in like really bulky layers with like things on top. Like not like actual, like a fat suit, like right. Definitely shit like went out of their way to make me heftier because I think they were like, you know, kids at home, they don't want to be like, what's with Andy looks different.

7 (51m 6s):
What's going on.

2 (51m 7s):
Right, right. Oh my God.

1 (51m 10s):
Oh my God forbid, people change. God forbid.

7 (51m 14s):
So I think, you know, I like I came out when I was probably about 15. So I think after coming out was probably when I became hyper aware of my body because you know, body image in queer men, especially in that era, I think like we're in a very different time now when I think about like body positivity and in all kinds of communities, but less so then, so I think I probably started theater school, like probably slimmer than I'd ever been, I would think, but still feeling like that was not the case.

1 (51m 58s):
Interesting. So you're in these movement classes, these voice and speech classes and you're like, I don't think this is really right for me. So then what do you do?

7 (52m 8s):
So I, I like, I, I signed up to audition for the, for the conservatory, but I also sign up to audition for ensemble. And when I look at like the actual requirements of the audition, as I'm building my materials, I'm like, I don't want to do a fucking Shakespearian monologue, like ever. I do not to this day. Like, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm an artistic director of a company here. We have a Shakespeare component. Like

1 (52m 38s):
I was going to be a hard pass on the old Shakespeare for me.

7 (52m 41s):
Yeah. I dunno. Like it's just, I think I'm, I'm so I, so contemporary in my, in my taste of everything, you know, I, I read voraciously, but I want, I like historical fiction book. That's a bit of a slog for me. So, so I think it was like, I want, I think I started to take ownership of like, I know my creativity and I know where my strengths lie and my strengths lie in creating things. And I just, I think having come from like my creative writing intensive, like high school program, I was like, I don't know if I can spend every minute of the day interpreting rather than, than creating, or at least like, I'm now sort of imbuing that with like some kind of like, I have no idea if this is actually true, that, that I had this aha moment.

7 (53m 44s):
Or if I just panicked, I was like, I don't want to learn Shakespeare. I'm going to do this thing

2 (53m 49s):
Some for some reason. And maybe it's because I know that you went on to become a drag performer, something for some reason, I have this idea that maybe what was off putting to you is this idea that you were always going to be in that context, just embodying the words that, you know, I was actually just saying this to somebody the other day, actors have a unique kind of prison as artists in the sense that if they don't go on to direct and write, which almost everybody is doing these days, but if they don't, they're, they're, they're limited to only ever expressing the words of another person.

2 (54m 32s):
And it actually makes them in many cases we've learned even from doing these interviews, not that great at talking about themselves and their way of thinking. Cause it's all just been inside and what's been outside is the words of other people. I wonder if that somehow seemed true for you even then.

7 (54m 49s):
That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, that really resonates. So I went into this, I audition for this device theater program and even just like, you know, sometimes like sometimes you just know like when, when I, when it was like, okay, this is what I have to prepare. Okay, this, this has a lot to prepare, but like, let's do it. Let's, let's go to the studio and let's just spend hours and hours and hours getting this down. And I thought like, okay, that's interesting. Like I'm really leaning into this rather than pulling away. So like, okay. So I got into that program. And

1 (55m 28s):
So this was a devised

7 (55m 30s):
Theater, so it's like third, I think 25 of us. And, and it was literally like, you know, on Monday they're like, okay, we're this week we're in groups of four, your central theme is isolation and, and you need, you know, like there'll be certain other components and you present Friday for an audience go Was, it was great. It was really, and, and I mean, and they'd give us some really specific projects and, but it was great. It was just like generative, constantly generative. And, you know, I do think, you know, if someday I end up in a TV writer's room, like it, it, it will be because of that, of just knowing that I have to make something and I have to make something, I just have to make it work in a tiny, tiny of time.

7 (56m 24s):
There's no, there's not room for like this deep contemplation up, but what, I don't know, it's just do it.

1 (56m 31s):
Oh, you're going to, that is, that is going to, if you ever did want to do TV and a TV, like I know I'm not in a writer's room, but like, from what I know, yeah. That's like extremely helpful because overthinking and second guessing in those situations is like, nobody has time, time is money and just make a choice and fucking move on versus having an hiring. So good for you. So you, so that taught you that like you just go with it.

7 (57m 3s):
Yeah. And I, and I do think that how I work as a playwright is still very much that, of, of like I, and sometimes to my detriment where it's like, just, I'm just going to dive in and just write and write and write and write rather than like, I'm going to sit, I'm going to actually like outline this thing and really figure out beat by beat where I'm headed, which I'm starting to do a bit more now in my practice. So, so yeah, I got into that program and then still took like voice and movement classes with, with some of the conservatory kids on top of that. And then also started in playwriting and dramaturgy classes because I just thought it would all support what I was doing.

2 (57m 47s):
Oh. And I'm sure it really did. I am obsessed with drag performance and I would love to know when that started for you and what the whole journey has been like.

7 (57m 58s):
Yeah. So I always, I mean, when I, when I was in theater school, I was always going out to drag shows, you know, like the, the, the gay bar was, was really like, like sacred space that, and I mean, I remember, I remember not really under Steven understanding. I remember seeing drag for the first time and thinking like, why does this happen? Like, what is this? Like, you know, like why, and also like, why is it so compelling? Because on paper, it shouldn't be right. Like, okay, so someone's going to dress up and they're going to, they're not going to sing, but they're going to lit, like, they're going to pretend they're singing to a song, but it's, but I ended up being so like when it's done well, it can be really moving.

7 (58m 49s):
And I remember like really, I think started starting to sort of study it of like, what is that, like, why is this, why does this resonate? And then got really into sort of researching the history of drag. And I had never, and I always said like, I have no intention of ever doing drag. I just love witnessing it. I find it actually quite like that shared energy, I find quite compelling and it sort of speaks to human level.

1 (59m 17s):
It sounds, you know, Jean and I are both former therapists and it, to me, it sounds therapeutic. I mean, like that's when you talk about it, like it sounds and, and, and it sounds, yeah, you said it sacred. So whenever there's sacred space, there's usually some kind of healing that goes on. Yeah.

7 (59m 37s):
Yeah. So then my, my husband, well then the guy was sort of dating. He was, I was living in Toronto. He was here in Vancouver and he came up to visit me and I introduced him to, you know, the world of drag and all these shows, which again, he'd never really participated in, but, but it became this, you know, we were there every week to see the same show with the same Queens and being really into it. And, and then we, and then I found out I got into grad school in Vancouver, so we both moved back to Vancouver. And when I arrived here, I thought like, wow, drag here is really, it's really different from, from Toronto drag. Like it's different in the structure of shows.

7 (1h 0m 19s):
It's everything about it. Like in Toronto, you know, a drag queen comes out and in one costume will, you know, do like eight numbers and talk to the audience in between. And then she rotates up in the next one comes in and then you sort of rinse and repeat. So it's just like, it's endless and like lots of

1 (1h 0m 34s):
Show kind of a thing.

7 (1h 0m 35s):
Yeah. But it's Vancouver, it's like a drag queen comes out. She does one number and address. She disappears and then the next one comes out. It's just like one number, no talking. I thought like, oh, this is odd. It's hard. It's hard for me to sort of penetrate it because there, you're not developing that rapport with an audience. So, so we were sort of watching a show one night, having just seen all these magical shows in Toronto and saw the show that was just not particularly moving. And I remember leaning into my husband saying, you could do way better than this and not wanting to be those naysayers who just shit all over everyone else's efforts without actually doing anything. We said, yeah, actually like, let's do that.

7 (1h 1m 19s):
And so my husband had started a theater company here in Vancouver and I come from a bit of a fundraising background and, you know, they had no grant, they had no money to, to, to do the first show. So I said, you know, let me run some events. I used to run some events in Toronto and let's have you as the drag queen star. And then for years and years, I mean, our, our events took off and, and you know, at first we're doing them quarterly and then monthly and then weekly. And, and we really were living like the like casual fall kind of life. Like I was the producer who carried the bags and, and he was the star. And then as he's a, he's a theater director.

7 (1h 1m 59s):
So as he then had to go direct a show, I was like the, the understudy. And I started hosting his show just on sort of on a whim. I was like, I'll do this once because I really want to make some tip money because I've been producing the show for free for years. And it'd be great to just be able to pay my liquors Hab. And I did it, and it was really magical. And, and it was like, and also kind of emotional because I was like, oh, Hey child, actor, Dave, who did this thing for years and years, and then stopped how you doing there you are.

7 (1h 2m 39s):
Hmm. Interesting. And so it's stock and I've been doing it regularly for a decade and had a weekly show. And yeah,

2 (1h 2m 51s):
I was expecting you to say so that you then started in Vancouver, the kind of drag that you really related to more in Toronto. Is that, is that how it worked out?

7 (1h 3m 2s):
Yeah, we just sort of, yeah. Yeah. I think, and I mean, we, you know, we still do a lot of shows. Like we do guest spots on other people's shows that still have that sort of Vancouver structure. But yeah, I started, I started a show here called shame spiral, which was literally, I show up in and outfit. I do have a guest in the show and, you know, she prepares some numbers, but I don't know what I'm performing on any given night. So I have, what's called the blender of shame, which is an actual blender with the blades removed full of a hundred different songs on pieces of paper. And so when it's time for me to do, like, I talked to the audience relentlessly, when it's time to do a number on audience member comes up, picks a number, it brings it directly to the DJ.

7 (1h 3m 44s):
And then the whole gimmick is like, will she even, will she know this? Will she even recognize it from the opening bars? Let's see what happens. And so it's like this gag that everyone's in on

2 (1h 3m 56s):
And,

7 (1h 3m 58s):
And yeah, and, and it became, it was just so different than anything. Cause everyone was so used to like, Nope, you have to be in the exact outfit. That's in the music video to do that song. And I'm like, well, no, this week I'm going to be in this sort of like flowy number. And maybe I'm getting Shirley Bassey or maybe I'm getting Nicki Minaj or maybe I'm getting Dolly Parkin. And any of those songs are going to happen in what I'm wearing.

2 (1h 4m 21s):
What's it like to do Nicki Minaj number in a flowing Therese?

7 (1h 4m 26s):
Well, it's great. Actually, it's wild. I actually broke into the drags in here by doing Nicki Minaj. Right? Like just did wrapper drag, which is very weird to think about, but it's, you know, it's my, my husband talks, we both get interviewed about drag a lot, I think because we're like the theater professionals who are also drag Queens in the city. So we sort of straddle two worlds that are pretty associated, but a bit loosely. And he always talks about how drag is part, part, foot soldier and part court jester of like, like the, you know, the court gesture is the only person who can like make fun of the king without losing his head.

7 (1h 5m 9s):
And that's why Queens, like people listen to drag Queens, you know, you have Mike time and people will listen. So you really gotta make sure, you know what you have to say. And we take that very seriously. Like as a result, you know, we get hired to do political interviews with candidates running for premier here. Like,

1 (1h 5m 28s):
Oh,

7 (1h 5m 29s):
Cause it's just like, because you can, you can sort of penetrate a bit further than if Dave was interviewing someone because there's a certain grand jury and a certain shirt that's so performed, but it, it gives you, it gives you entrance. So

1 (1h 5m 46s):
Well, gee, do you have any idea? Cause of what goes on in my head when I hear this as like, oh, they should have a television show, like a talk show where they in drag, you know, they, that those characters interview do hard hitting interviews, but as queen, as drag, that'd be great. That'd be fantastic because also what I love, what I love about what you're saying is that the mixture of yeah. Being able to it's so worth humans are so funny. It's like if someone puts on a beautiful costume or a funny costume or a crazy costume or whatever kind of costume, and then asks you a question, there is like even a hard hitting question.

1 (1h 6m 27s):
There's a, what is it? It softens the blow of reality, I think. And it sort of can be make-believe, but it's not really make-believe, which is what I think is great about that is also reminds me of like Sasha Baron Cohen stuff, which is where if you put on a character, you can sort of get away with a lot of shit. And also you can pinpoint in without people taking you too seriously. And so when someone's not taking you so seriously, they're apt to actually tell you the truth more Like, what does it matter? I'm just talking, I'm just talking to these Queens. Like there's, it's so fun. It's so fun.

1 (1h 7m 8s):
And then all of a sudden they're dropping these serious. Now they're getting into serious stuff. And you're like, oh, like when I watched stuff like Sasha Baron Cohen, I'm Baron Cohen. I'm like, oh, oh my God, this is so intense and deep. And yet I don't really feel like I'm going to go off the deep end because it's under this guise of quote font. Right. It's like, whoa, it's real deep. It's like a real deep, it's like a real multi-layered. So I, I love this idea that you interviewed. Do you work as a team?

7 (1h 7m 37s):
Yeah, quite, quite a bit. Not always, but, but quite a bit. We do everything to, I mean, we, we run a company together. We raise a kid together. We do drag together. He directs the plays. Most of the plays that I write.

2 (1h 7m 50s):
And so you haven't been performing, but I just saw on your Instagram that it's you're reopened and you're, you've got to show up or coming up soon.

7 (1h 8m 1s):
Yeah. So I, so, so my husband runs a company called ZZ theater and I, which I have worked with and for, for 14 years. And so ZZ is doing its first show in its first live show. In two years, we did a full season during pandemic, which, you know, great. I'm glad we did it. And we were able to employ a lot of artists, but it's not, it's not what we're designed to do. Right. We're we're theater artists, so we're not filmmakers. So it's really exciting there that we're, it we're in rehearsal right now. But then about five months ago I started a new job. So I'm the artistic, the courts of second managing director of the children's theater here in Vancouver.

7 (1h 8m 42s):
And so we just opened our first show in two years yesterday and

1 (1h 8m 48s):
Oh, congratulations. What how'd it go? What are you doing?

7 (1h 8m 51s):
It went really well. I mean, yeah, it's, it's a show called Groth. It's a sort of a, an adaptation of the three Billy goats gruff. That's, that's really actually like quite beautiful and timely because it really deals with, with immigration and displacement and like who, who does or does not deserve to be in a place that has resource it's really, but, you know, but in like in a, in a whimsical digestible musical piece for kids, so that's really exciting.

1 (1h 9m 29s):
And then my other question is can you mix kids theater and drag?

7 (1h 9m 32s):
Oh, we do. Yeah. I mean, we do a lot of drag queen story time, but also the children's festival here in Vancouver commissioned our company ZZ a couple years ago to create a drag show for kids, which we perform with our son. Just the three of us.

2 (1h 9m 50s):
Oh, he performed.

7 (1h 9m 53s):
Yeah.

2 (1h 9m 53s):
Wow. Amazing.

7 (1h 9m 55s):
Yeah. The first time we did it, he was, I mean, he was like a year and a half. So he, you know, he, he was basically acute prop, you know, like he like the Simba reveal in lion king. He was the lion, right. Like genuinely in the show. And we're about to do, they sort of recommissioned the show because of course, you know, we did the show and then in 2020, we'd been booked to tour that show to every children's festival in Canada. And then clearly we all know if that didn't happen.

1 (1h 10m 26s):
Right.

7 (1h 10m 26s):
So the festival has actually recommissioned the show now because it's very different doing a show with a four year old because he like, he's like, I want my own numbers. We're like, okay. But let's figure it out.

2 (1h 10m 39s):
Oh, damn. He wants his numbers. Oh. And you're

1 (1h 10m 44s):
Figuring

2 (1h 10m 45s):
It out. You're giving him his own numbers.

7 (1h 10m 47s):
Well, we're figuring it out. So what we're doing, we have a bunch of studio time in April to, to sort of build two tracks for the show of like, here's the show we do when Dexter wants to do the show and here's the show we do went backstage. He's like, I'm not doing that. And we're like, I honor that because if this isn't fun for you, we're not doing it. Like we've had a bunch of requests over the pandemic for like us to do the show, like live on zoom. And we, we tried doing it once and it was just not fun for our kids. So we're like, yeah, we're not doing that. That's this has to be fun for him. If this is not fun for him, there's no point.

1 (1h 11m 24s):
Which is what your parents did for you when you were acting. That's amazing. I, I want to shift gears a little bit to ask you the question that I always want to ask people from Canada, which is, what do you think of us down here? Like, what is seriously? Like, what do you think of us? I mean, I've dated weirdly a lot of Canadians, but not in a while, since I've been married, which is good. I haven't been dating them while I've been married. But so I would love to know, like when you look at us, what the hell, what is the general thing about us, our theater, our lives down here. We never talked to people in other countries to be quite honest.

7 (1h 12m 4s):
Well, I mean, I have a lot, like a lot of people who I'm very close to are American and live in America. And I I've spent Tom, you know, a lot of time in, in various parts of America, what continues to blow my mind actually about the U S is like how many states there are and how different they all are. And like 10 times, you know, when I visit, you know, like I I've been working on a show for Nashville children's theater. And so when I'm down in Nashville, I'm always like, wow, like this is the same country as when I visit port San Francisco or Portland, like it's kind of mind blowing. And I mean, you know, we have a lot of provinces too, but like not really, we have, you know, between provinces and territories, we've got like 13, 13 total.

7 (1h 12m 51s):
Right. And, and I mean, not that any of them are a monolith and you know, different parts of the province, obviously there are different, but that continues to be wild. I think, I think we're living in a super complex time is what I think. And I think, I think it's really dangerous for anyone to perceive the people of a particular place as being a particular thing, you know?

1 (1h 13m 18s):
Yeah.

7 (1h 13m 19s):
I, yeah, like, I, I don't know. We have, we have family who live in rural Texas, so we've, we've spent a bunch of time there. Church is super memorable every time.

1 (1h 13m 36s):
But like, I guess my question is I'll get really specific. Do you like feel you personally, I don't know how all Canadians feel and I'm certainly not going to get in touch with all my exes right now, but I do like, piteous that we're such a mess down here.

7 (1h 13m 53s):
Yes.

1 (1h 13m 55s):
Yeah.

7 (1h 13m 55s):
I, I w I worry, I genuinely worry because I think, Yeah, the like, the world feels really scary right now. And, and I think because, because Canada and the U S are intertwined in some ways, and, and then also like completely removed from one another in others to see like how our politics are really like creeping and interweaving right now. And not for the better is, is it scares me. It keeps me up at night for sure. Yup.

1 (1h 14m 33s):
Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's enough. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. But I liked that. You said, yeah. Yeah. Like you kind of like, look, look and say, oh God, because, because it re it really resonates with me. And it mirrors to me my own feelings of, oh God, what are we doing? Yeah. And so it's nice to actually have it reflected in someone that doesn't live here. Say, oh God, not that kid is perfect. Now what I'm saying, but I'm saying is you look at us and say, yeah. Oh God, you're right. You're living in, it's weird. What's happening here. So thank you for that.

2 (1h 15m 4s):
So getting back to theater school, this was a F it was a four year program at York. Okay. And when you graduate with another thing we always ask people is when you graduated, did you feel prepared for the job market? Did you feel like your school? I mean, now you're an exception because you were already in the job market before you went to theater school,

7 (1h 15m 26s):
But in a different job market. Yeah. Right. Like, I don't think my child actor work in any way prepared me for how to carve out a life in the theater. Right. Cause it's just especially like, like auditioning for film and TV versus how do I become a playwright. Right. Like, it's just, I, what I will say is, is theater school, the best thing that ever happened to me, I think in my entire career happened while I was in theater school, which was, every student had to take a class called theater management. And the, the sort of, it was all about grant writing.

7 (1h 16m 7s):
So we, yeah. So our final project was to write an operating grant for a fictional theater company that we came up with for the Canada council, for the arts, which is, you know, a grant that I write all the time now. And the professor actually put together like a jury, like a mock jury. So you had to submit the application and either the jury approved it or they did it. And that was how that was your grade.

1 (1h 16m 36s):
Did you get approved?

7 (1h 16m 37s):
I did. I did. But what I liked about it is that like it, you know, you don't, they're not just like make this grant. They're like, okay. So the first part, like first we have to come up, you have to figure out your company. So this week you need to work on your company mandate. And here's how that should look and then submit it. And if you, if you don't pass, work on it and resubmit it and like, so it wasn't pass or fail, it was like,

1 (1h 16m 60s):
I teach teaching you.

7 (1h 17m 6s):
Yeah.

2 (1h 17m 6s):
Oh, sorry, go ahead.

7 (1h 17m 7s):
No, no. So, so I mean that, like, so I felt, I can't say that. I felt like, oh, okay. I can just go out and get all these grants because no theater student is getting grants immediately. But I was fortunate that I was. And I think maybe because I think probably because of my fine arts high school, where in the, in the literary arts program, we had to submit like, as part of our grade, we had to submit our writing to like at least 10 publications per term. So we were like really used to like sending things out. So, you know, even when I was in doing in theater school, I, as I was writing little short, really not great plays, I was sending them to companies, which in retrospect, I'm like, I can't even believe I had the gall to send this.

7 (1h 17m 53s):
Like, but you know, like, and sometimes I would get responses one time, you know, I got invited to come in and have a chat with the ID, which like led to a commission like a year later, you know? So it's just, I, I think I had enough gall to just be really pushy, but I definitely would, I definitely took a lot of more established artists out for coffee to say, like, how, like, I know all the things like you're this playwright and you also act, but like, how do you pay your bills from month to month? Like I asked that question a lot and, you know, I think was both saddened, but also relieved to hear that everyone was doing it in a piecemeal way.

7 (1h 18m 46s):
Right. Like, oh, well I do this voice gig. And then, you know, on Saturdays I do this other, like, you know, I'm, I pretend to be a patient for doctors and training, like all these little gigs. You're like, oh, okay.

2 (1h 18m 59s):
So when you graduated, what did you imagine would be the next steps? And then what actually were the next steps?

7 (1h 19m 11s):
I think, I think I somehow thought that, you know, you, you, you self produce a play and then it's a hit and then people pick it up and then like the theaters in town, remount it. And then they commission you to write more. And that's it because that's, you know, because that's a trajectory of like two people I know. And therefore that's probably what happens. And, and instead, I, I think, you know, I, I self produced a lot of stuff and, but like often not stuff that I had written, like, you know, my favorite playwright, Michelle humbly, this Quebecois God who I'm obsessed with.

7 (1h 19m 54s):
And he's the reason I became a playwright. I found out that he'd written the play. He's now like 70, and he'd written a play when he was, I think, like 15 or 16 that won a playwriting. And so it was produced in France and it had never been translated into English. So I was like, I'm going to get the rights to that. And I'm going to translate it and I'm going to premiere it. And I did, I did all those things and like, nobody really cared, but I cared.

1 (1h 20m 24s):
It was like, but

7 (1h 20m 25s):
Like I cared because it was like, I'm learning how to produce. And I got so many things wrong, but people were very kind and, you know, like the local theater critic called me to be like, Hey, I just got your, your press release and your press kit, do you have time to chat? And I was like, yeah. And he walked me through, like, this part was really good, but this, like, you're actually missing some information here. So you should think about adding this next time. And I was like, what a generous kind, man, like he could have just ignored this and said, she's not going to that talk it. So, you know, I, I had a lot of mentors who I like, he ended up being one of my key mentors for years and years and years.

7 (1h 21m 5s):
And I, I was very fortunate that a lot of people I think were taken by the heart that I bring to the table and everything I do. And which is why, you know, now that I've found myself in a leadership position, I very much like, you know, it's like, let's pull artists up into leadership. Let's, let's like courage people let's answer every email show up to everything.

1 (1h 21m 34s):
What, I guess I'm going to turn the question back on you like posts. So posts, theater school, you took people out and you said hat. So my question for you is how do you pay your bills from month to month? Cause people like, do you, are you going to salary? Do you pay yourself? How does that,

7 (1h 21m 48s):
I mean, since, since the fall, when I got this new job, now I have a salary. Yes. But up until then, you know, a lot of people like, God knows a lot of theater folk, like either are bartenders or servers and drag for me was my bread and butter for years. Yeah. So, you know, between my weekly show and then like, I would get some corporate gigs and that became, that was what I could rely on. So

1 (1h 22m 17s):
Corporate drag.

7 (1h 22m 19s):
Yeah.

2 (1h 22m 20s):
I mean,

7 (1h 22m 21s):
RuPaul changed everything, right? Like now people are like, Ooh, drags. Interesting. And it's actually not as scary as we thought.

1 (1h 22m 28s):
Understood, understood.

2 (1h 22m 29s):
I, one of the reasons I'm obsessed with it right now is, is it only recently occurred to me that what people are doing with it is creating their entire, even though it's a character they're creating in a sense, their entire personal narrative from beginning to end, they have complete control over the story. That is the story and the image that is going to be presented. And it, and the people who seem the most successful at it, which was the thing I was going to say about you are unshakeable in their belief about who they are and who this character like you can't, I'm, I'm

1 (1h 23m 12s):
Undeniable,

2 (1h 23m 14s):
They're undeniable. And you seem like a person who carries around sort of a natural sense of yourself and confidence. Did that come when you think from having great parents or w, and maybe you also were just born with a predisposition to finding equilibrium.

7 (1h 23m 33s):
It's so interesting. Like now, now we're like, we're getting deep here. Like, it's so interesting to hear that because that's not my perception of myself. You know what I mean? Like I had this whole conversation with my mother yesterday about, you know, I'm, I'm almost 40 and, and just sort of, I think, starting to like, have these aha moments about myself, of like interesting, like, it's interesting to hear people reflect what they take in versus what's happening in here. Right. So I was like, oh, confident. Okay, cool. That's, that's cool. But I'm glad that, that, that, that, that some someone's buying that. So, because I do like, I, I think, you know, I, I, I constantly am like, am I good at anything that I do?

7 (1h 24m 17s):
Like, there's a constant self-evaluation, which in many ways can be crippling, but I also think is a powerful, powerful thing to be constantly fighting because it means I don't, I, I, I can't be complacent ever.

1 (1h 24m 35s):
Well, also there's a humility about it. That is, that is necessary to like, curiosity about am I actually like, what am I projecting? What am I doing? And what am I like? There, there comes a real, like facing the present versus compartmentalizing and saying little, like taking stock, I would say is a great thing instead of just either compartmentalizing or lying to ourselves and, and it could become crippling, but it sounds like for you, that sort of sense of what am I doing? Am I, you, you seem really curious about life and about your own process and the older I get, the more I realize that curiosity is the thing that's going to save us because there's not judgment in it.

7 (1h 25m 22s):
Like earlier in our conversation when I said, you know, I know that I'm a good playwright. I was really testing that out. Like, that's new. I've never, I don't think I've ever said that. I was like, let's see how this lands.

2 (1h 25m 32s):
Yeah.

1 (1h 25m 32s):
How did it feel? How did it feel to say that

7 (1h 25m 34s):
That felt good actually, Just cause I, you know, I'm, I'm really, I'm, I'm sort of, it's my film, TV, friends that I'm starting, like who I'm spending more time with that. I'm like, whoa, like the way you talk about yourself is so cool. I've never met people who are like, I'm like, I'm a great actor. So like they could cast someone else if they want it to be terrible, because I'm the best. And I'm like, right. Oh, cool.

1 (1h 25m 59s):
I love witnessing

2 (1h 26m 0s):
Dave. I mean, surely you don't still think not a good actor.

7 (1h 26m 6s):
I think I'm a good drag queen, but, and truthfully, like I I've now started bringing my drag practice, my playwriting practice together more and more like my, my plays are some of the ones I'm working on now or dealing with drag, I'm writing a solo show for peach cobbler to perform. And that I think I can do because peach is, is safe. Like, I feel pretty, I don't want to say invincible, but

1 (1h 26m 40s):
There's like impenetrable.

7 (1h 26m 43s):
Impenetrable is the right word.

1 (1h 26m 44s):
Yeah.

2 (1h 26m 45s):
Oh, I may everybody have a peach cobbler, their lives

1 (1h 26m 51s):
We need. So like, we need that. And I think everyone has a different, hopefully finds a different version of that. Even if they don't do drag, even if they're not a drag artist, it's like find the version of you that can show up and have, and not be penetrated by garbage all day, all night, you know? Like,

7 (1h 27m 13s):
Cause

1 (1h 27m 14s):
Then it's even if it's your own garbage, even if it's your own garbage right. To like, I know that if I'm on in a meeting or something like that, I will still think, oh, you could be, you could be garbage, but I won't let it in. It's like, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But here we go. We have things to do here versus really, you know, so that's my version of that. But I feel like drag is it's just, so what is it? It is just such a, like a weapon and also a it's a weapon and a

2 (1h 27m 50s):
Branch at the same time,

1 (1h 27m 52s):
Olive branch at the same time.

5 (1h 28m 2s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <em></em> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?