WEBVTT

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Mulvad's co-owner made a controversial

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political donation.

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A U.S.

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court has ruled border agents can search

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your phone without a warrant.

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And a little bit of good news from

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Apple.

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All this and more coming up in This

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Week in Privacy, number sixty three.

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So stay tuned.

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we're working on

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within the Privacy Guides community and

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this week's top stories in data privacy

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and cybersecurity.

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I'm Jonah,

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and with me this week is Nate.

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By the way,

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we're going to be ditching our Q&A section

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we normally have at the end in favor

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of answering questions just throughout the

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stream.

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So if you have any,

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no need to wait.

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Just ask away.

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We will be checking the chat here,

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of course,

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and also

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um our forum thread and our signal chat

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for privacy guides supporters so any of

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those places uh yeah let us know if

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you want us to discuss anything anyways

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how are you doing today nate i'm doing

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pretty good um

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Yeah,

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I don't think I have much to say.

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It's been a surprisingly good week,

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I think, for me.

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How are you?

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Good.

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You know, I'm doing good as well.

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I was just talking to some people,

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I know you know about this,

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but this morning I booked all of my

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stuff for DEF CON in a few weeks.

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Kind of a last-minute booking,

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which is how I normally handle things.

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But that'll be exciting.

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So...

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If anyone is going to DEFCON,

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it would be very cool to meet up

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with anyone,

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but otherwise I will be doing that and

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I'm looking forward to it.

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I've never been to Vegas before.

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Have you been to Vegas, Nate?

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Surprisingly, no.

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I actually spent seven years in Southern

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California and Vegas was only a few hours

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away.

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But for the majority of that time,

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I was under twenty one.

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And a lot of people told me that,

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like, yeah,

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there's stuff to do if you're not twenty

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one.

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But there's like and they're not even

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talking about gambling,

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which is like getting into places like

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there's more stuff to do when you are

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twenty one.

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So I just never really made the time.

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But that is really exciting.

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I do want to go to DEF CON

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one day.

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So I hope you have fun.

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Yeah, you should come.

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Hopefully we can do it next year or

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something a bit less last minute for sure.

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Yeah, that would be super awesome.

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But yeah,

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I guess we'll go ahead and jump into

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this week's stories and cybersecurity

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stuff that you might be discussing at DEF

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CON, possibly.

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Who knows?

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But we're going to start with our big,

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big story, which is about Mulvad,

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the Mulvad donation controversy.

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So for context here,

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this actually came to light a few weeks

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ago.

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I want to say like a month ago

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that one of the co-founders of Mulvad VPN

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named Daniel Bernson,

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I probably pronounced that wrong, donated,

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I believe some sources I've found said

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five million Swedish kronor,

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which is a little bit north of five

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hundred thousand US dollars to,

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I'm definitely going to pronounce this

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wrong, the Orebro party in Sweden.

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According to Wikipedia,

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this party has been described as both left

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and right wing.

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But from what I can tell,

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they're largely considered left wing.

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And this, unfortunately,

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this is relevant to the story.

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Despite being considered largely left

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wing,

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the party apparently also has some

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significant nationalist,

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populist and conservative views.

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And one of the big ones that I've

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seen thrown around a lot that people are

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upset about is remigration,

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which is a term I've never heard before.

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The summary I found said it's a policy

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aimed at encouraging or compelling

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immigrants to leave Sweden.

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Another summary said the party's platform

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includes strong secularism,

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immediate closure of Islamic charter

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schools,

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and the assertion that Sweden belongs to

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the Swedes.

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So again, for the record,

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these are summaries I read and I have

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never been to Sweden.

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I am not Swedish.

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I don't think I know any Swedes other

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than I think I've talked to some of

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them all bad people for like two seconds

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in the past.

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So apologies if I got any of that

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wrong, but that is what my research is.

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turned up.

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So again, this, this story started about,

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I mean,

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apparently this donation took place in

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twenty twenty five,

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but I guess it just came to light

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about a month ago.

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And Moldad has officially commented now

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because this has become such a big thing.

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And I'm just going to kind of pick

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out bits and pieces of this story because

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there is it's it's

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It's not a huge, huge statement,

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but it's a little bit too much to

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just read off here.

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Basically, they said,

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this is a private donation from Daniel to

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the individual.

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Mulvad or its parent and sister companies

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did not endorse and were not involved in

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it.

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And then they kind of went on to

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basically say that, well, actually,

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let me scroll down a little bit here

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and read one more part.

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Mulvad does not condone it nor condemn it.

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It was most likely a bad idea.

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Most things where there are a multitude of

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conflicting opinions necessarily are.

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i don't know about that but societies need

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a great diversity of ideas initiatives and

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organizations who can be tested and sifted

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until the best ones remain ideally through

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rational debate daniel's rationale and

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points of view can be read on his

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personal blog um which i'll throw up on

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screen real quick just so you guys can

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see it uh he has written quite a

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bit actually um about a number of his

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views both related to that party

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specifically and politics um so you guys

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can go read that if you'd like to

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Just to clarify,

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when I said I don't know about that,

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they said the part where most things where

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there are a multitude of conflicting

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opinions necessarily are.

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I mean there have been a lot of

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controversial ideas in the past that I

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would argue have stood the test of time,

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but whatever.

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Yeah.

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So basically they go on to say in

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this, this post, um,

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to kind of summarize it,

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they basically say like Mulvad is

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nonpartisan.

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Um,

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their interest is in making a VPN and

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providing people with the, uh,

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the tools to bypass censorship and access

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information and communicate freely and

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privately.

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And, uh,

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they kind of point out like sometimes,

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you know, we, we talk about this with,

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um,

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we talk about this with like,

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like encryption, like necessarily people,

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unfortunately are going to use encryption

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to do bad things,

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but that doesn't necessarily mean that we

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break everybody's encryption.

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Right.

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And that's kind of the same argument that

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they're taking.

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And let me see if I've got it

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all down here.

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So yeah, Daniel, like I said,

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Daniel's got his own blog post over here.

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I'll be honest.

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I had a little bit of a hard

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time following his launch.

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I mean, it is, is a lot.

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And yeah,

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I tried to read it all.

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Again, I'm not Swedish,

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so I think maybe some of the context

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escaped me.

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I also,

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if I can be a little bit sarcastic

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down here, he says, disclaimer,

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the views in this text,

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while partially inspired by the two who

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founded that party,

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are mine and not theirs or the party's.

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And it's like, so basically you said,

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here's why I voted for the party.

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And by the way,

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nothing I said is what the party said.

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So I don't really understand what he's

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saying there.

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I kind of do,

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but I kind of don't.

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Anyways, if I read his blog correctly,

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he's basically saying like,

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he doesn't really believe in that party,

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but he, again,

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could be reading this wrong,

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but he's kind of like trying to encourage

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competition.

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Like maybe if we have more viable party

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options,

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maybe the existing politicians will do

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better,

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which as somebody living under a two party

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system,

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I can say I kind of understand that

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logic,

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but I don't know how well it holds

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up.

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But yeah, I think that's a,

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I think that kind of gets us up

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to speed.

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I think I'm going to throw it back

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to Jonah at this point to kick off

00:07:43.935 --> 00:07:44.754
the analysis.

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Jonah,

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could you maybe start by kind of like,

00:07:48.658 --> 00:07:50.100
why, why has this become,

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I think it's probably obvious for most

00:07:52.341 --> 00:07:52.581
people,

00:07:52.601 --> 00:07:53.843
but just in case anybody's wondering,

00:07:53.882 --> 00:07:54.244
like, why,

00:07:54.303 --> 00:07:55.704
why has this become such a hot topic

00:07:55.725 --> 00:07:56.305
in the community?

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Do you think?

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You know, I think well,

00:07:59.983 --> 00:08:01.184
in terms of why it became a hot

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topic,

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I think that the privacy community in

00:08:03.463 --> 00:08:07.545
general is a fairly political community

00:08:07.584 --> 00:08:10.245
because obviously we are fighting for

00:08:10.964 --> 00:08:12.406
privacy, digital rights.

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A lot of that has to do with

00:08:14.005 --> 00:08:15.586
not only, you know,

00:08:15.906 --> 00:08:17.387
getting privacy from big tech companies,

00:08:17.427 --> 00:08:20.586
but also having privacy from the

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government and making sure that the laws

00:08:23.408 --> 00:08:23.548
of

00:08:25.836 --> 00:08:26.336
you know,

00:08:26.636 --> 00:08:28.637
where you live are protecting your privacy

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rights.

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And we talk about privacy policies and law

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on our forum and on this channel all

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of the time.

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And I don't think any of the policies

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that this party has are specifically

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privacy related,

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although there are certainly some privacy

00:08:45.604 --> 00:08:48.125
implications with some of the re-migration

00:08:48.144 --> 00:08:48.845
stuff that they're doing,

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which is a whole separate topic.

00:08:50.245 --> 00:08:51.985
But it's not surprising to me that

00:08:54.369 --> 00:08:55.812
that people who have an interest in

00:08:55.852 --> 00:08:57.498
privacy are also going to have an interest

00:08:57.557 --> 00:09:00.325
in a lot of other political topics.

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And so

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It's definitely controversial because it's

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the sort of thing that is going to

00:09:05.094 --> 00:09:07.094
blow up on social media.

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We've seen a ton of this talked about

00:09:09.014 --> 00:09:12.015
on Mastodon and on Twitter,

00:09:12.216 --> 00:09:13.615
and I'm sure on other platforms where

00:09:13.635 --> 00:09:14.475
Malved is as well.

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Obviously Malved was feeling the pressure

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because they had to post a full response

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about it.

00:09:20.217 --> 00:09:21.538
And I think a lot of people just

00:09:21.577 --> 00:09:23.879
have questions about what it means

00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:25.700
for Malvet,

00:09:25.740 --> 00:09:27.042
especially if they don't feel like

00:09:27.081 --> 00:09:28.823
supporting these policies.

00:09:29.946 --> 00:09:30.947
And so we could take a look at

00:09:31.006 --> 00:09:32.389
some of the questions.

00:09:33.029 --> 00:09:34.692
We've received questions just during this

00:09:34.731 --> 00:09:37.495
show already and some statements.

00:09:37.514 --> 00:09:39.577
We could look at Take Out the Lobster

00:09:39.597 --> 00:09:40.318
on YouTube said,

00:09:40.438 --> 00:09:41.980
it's not really an extreme party.

00:09:43.447 --> 00:09:44.187
If that's what you're getting at,

00:09:44.227 --> 00:09:45.089
sincerely, a Swede.

00:09:45.389 --> 00:09:48.613
I will say, neither of us are Swedish,

00:09:48.712 --> 00:09:49.274
obviously.

00:09:49.474 --> 00:09:51.255
I mean, maybe ancestrally,

00:09:51.356 --> 00:09:54.701
but not living in Sweden.

00:09:54.721 --> 00:09:56.842
I have no familiarity with Swedish

00:09:56.962 --> 00:09:57.543
politics,

00:09:58.524 --> 00:10:00.528
and I assume Nate does not really either.

00:10:03.808 --> 00:10:06.552
I don't really know much about this party,

00:10:06.611 --> 00:10:07.452
to be honest,

00:10:07.472 --> 00:10:08.653
and they seem to be all over the

00:10:08.695 --> 00:10:08.934
map.

00:10:09.014 --> 00:10:11.798
I don't think the question is how extreme

00:10:11.817 --> 00:10:13.099
they are, but they do seem to be,

00:10:13.158 --> 00:10:14.520
from what I've gathered and from what

00:10:14.561 --> 00:10:15.481
other people have said,

00:10:16.243 --> 00:10:18.465
just a very populist party,

00:10:19.306 --> 00:10:20.628
which is the sort of thing where...

00:10:22.852 --> 00:10:24.575
A lot of the times with these populist

00:10:24.615 --> 00:10:25.115
parties,

00:10:25.456 --> 00:10:27.238
they will have a lot of policies and

00:10:27.278 --> 00:10:29.379
say a lot of things mainly to get

00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:31.542
votes and support more than actually

00:10:31.761 --> 00:10:32.342
supporting it.

00:10:32.363 --> 00:10:34.565
And they might not even believe any of

00:10:34.585 --> 00:10:35.566
the things that they're supporting.

00:10:37.774 --> 00:10:39.475
Or they only have certain policies that

00:10:39.495 --> 00:10:40.075
they care about.

00:10:40.174 --> 00:10:41.755
I think that this is a big problem

00:10:42.696 --> 00:10:43.317
with some parties,

00:10:43.557 --> 00:10:45.236
especially ones that are described as both

00:10:45.498 --> 00:10:46.898
right and left wing, like this one is,

00:10:46.957 --> 00:10:47.639
like Nate was saying.

00:10:49.019 --> 00:10:51.379
Because in a lot of cases,

00:10:51.460 --> 00:10:54.802
when a party seems like they are kind

00:10:54.841 --> 00:10:55.761
of on all sides of the aisle,

00:10:55.782 --> 00:10:57.143
they're actually only supporting one side,

00:10:57.163 --> 00:10:58.683
but they want to get votes from anyone

00:10:58.703 --> 00:10:59.563
that they can convince.

00:11:02.625 --> 00:11:03.346
I don't really know...

00:11:06.775 --> 00:11:09.057
where I don't really know.

00:11:10.457 --> 00:11:11.479
I guess at the end of the day,

00:11:11.778 --> 00:11:13.139
his support for it doesn't make a lot

00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:13.559
of sense to me.

00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:14.941
He said in his own blog post that

00:11:14.961 --> 00:11:17.662
he doesn't really support many of the

00:11:17.922 --> 00:11:20.082
policies that this party supports.

00:11:21.644 --> 00:11:22.485
So I don't know why.

00:11:22.625 --> 00:11:24.145
I think it was at the end there,

00:11:24.166 --> 00:11:25.466
if you have it on the screen, Nate.

00:11:25.966 --> 00:11:26.147
But

00:11:28.139 --> 00:11:28.298
Yeah,

00:11:28.318 --> 00:11:29.259
it doesn't make a lot of sense to

00:11:29.298 --> 00:11:30.659
me to become that party's biggest

00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:32.159
supporter But again,

00:11:32.179 --> 00:11:33.660
I don't know how much this competition is

00:11:33.701 --> 00:11:36.241
really needed in the Swedish political

00:11:36.822 --> 00:11:40.602
space A lot of the questions that I've

00:11:40.682 --> 00:11:46.085
seen are more about like Just how much

00:11:46.144 --> 00:11:48.745
of Mulved's money is actually going to the

00:11:48.785 --> 00:11:53.206
causes that the co-founder supports and

00:11:54.692 --> 00:11:55.634
As far as I know,

00:11:56.374 --> 00:11:58.796
Mulvad is basically co-owned fifty-fifty

00:11:58.836 --> 00:12:01.017
between him and another person.

00:12:02.197 --> 00:12:04.778
And they're co-CEOs and they kind of just

00:12:04.899 --> 00:12:06.360
split everything down the middle.

00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:10.062
And so it's, I don't know, Nate,

00:12:10.101 --> 00:12:12.104
you could probably elaborate more on this

00:12:12.163 --> 00:12:12.524
a bit,

00:12:12.624 --> 00:12:15.446
but in terms of like whether you should

00:12:15.466 --> 00:12:17.586
continue using Mulvad or not.

00:12:19.532 --> 00:12:21.975
It's less of a privacy or a technical

00:12:21.995 --> 00:12:24.356
decision and more of a philosophical or

00:12:24.417 --> 00:12:25.758
political how you feel.

00:12:26.038 --> 00:12:27.960
At the end of the day, your money,

00:12:27.980 --> 00:12:28.900
if you support Malved,

00:12:28.921 --> 00:12:30.543
some of that is going to be supporting

00:12:30.643 --> 00:12:32.225
these things that one of the co-founders

00:12:32.904 --> 00:12:34.667
cares about because he's getting the

00:12:34.687 --> 00:12:36.489
profits from Malved, right?

00:12:36.548 --> 00:12:37.990
Even if Malved's not directly doing it,

00:12:38.049 --> 00:12:38.269
you're...

00:12:39.173 --> 00:12:41.274
sending money that way which is something

00:12:41.315 --> 00:12:44.216
to consider but at the same time you

00:12:44.236 --> 00:12:45.957
know you can separate the art from the

00:12:46.057 --> 00:12:47.658
artist and if mulvet isn't directly

00:12:47.698 --> 00:12:49.480
supporting themselves it's just one guy

00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:51.402
who's profiting off of it maybe that's

00:12:51.501 --> 00:12:53.143
less of a big deal to you i

00:12:53.163 --> 00:12:55.784
don't know what do you think nate i

00:12:55.804 --> 00:12:59.027
think it's um i think it's really personal

00:12:59.067 --> 00:13:01.548
preference um real quick just to kind of

00:13:01.568 --> 00:13:04.571
go back to uh to what um take

00:13:04.591 --> 00:13:05.951
out the lobster said uh what i was

00:13:05.971 --> 00:13:08.013
getting at is basically just that i just

00:13:08.033 --> 00:13:08.234
wanted to

00:13:09.070 --> 00:13:09.890
I don't know if hedge my bets is

00:13:09.910 --> 00:13:11.011
the right word, but basically like,

00:13:11.091 --> 00:13:12.312
I don't know a lot about this party.

00:13:12.472 --> 00:13:13.933
I hadn't really heard of them before.

00:13:14.034 --> 00:13:14.894
So it was kind of my, like,

00:13:15.475 --> 00:13:16.576
I wasn't trying to insinuate they're

00:13:16.596 --> 00:13:17.778
necessarily an extreme party.

00:13:18.859 --> 00:13:19.779
I was more just saying like,

00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:21.642
I apologize if I'm summarizing this wrong,

00:13:21.741 --> 00:13:23.582
but yeah, I think it's,

00:13:25.017 --> 00:13:26.658
It's so tricky because I think both of

00:13:26.697 --> 00:13:27.957
those takes are true.

00:13:27.998 --> 00:13:28.238
You know,

00:13:28.658 --> 00:13:31.339
Eteru said here that he said in a

00:13:31.379 --> 00:13:31.839
real fight,

00:13:31.918 --> 00:13:33.440
nobody drops the best shield just because

00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:34.559
they dislike the creator.

00:13:36.400 --> 00:13:37.160
But at the same time,

00:13:37.280 --> 00:13:40.081
I think it's not quite the same.

00:13:40.121 --> 00:13:41.081
Like, I see where you're coming from,

00:13:41.101 --> 00:13:41.962
and you're absolutely right.

00:13:42.023 --> 00:13:43.163
Like, if I was in a firefight,

00:13:44.082 --> 00:13:45.443
I'm going to use whatever protection I

00:13:45.464 --> 00:13:47.344
have available to cover myself.

00:13:47.825 --> 00:13:48.725
But it's so, like...

00:13:50.775 --> 00:13:51.115
I don't know.

00:13:51.196 --> 00:13:52.136
I think that's a valid take,

00:13:52.157 --> 00:13:52.837
but at the same time,

00:13:52.957 --> 00:13:55.059
I think not wanting to – because when

00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:56.841
you're subscribing to Moldad,

00:13:56.900 --> 00:13:58.503
you are directly putting money in this

00:13:58.543 --> 00:13:59.123
man's pocket.

00:13:59.203 --> 00:13:59.884
Like, full stop.

00:13:59.923 --> 00:14:00.325
You are.

00:14:00.644 --> 00:14:01.105
Period.

00:14:01.144 --> 00:14:01.645
Full stop.

00:14:02.166 --> 00:14:05.749
And so you're giving money to him,

00:14:05.808 --> 00:14:08.010
which he then in turn turns around and

00:14:08.030 --> 00:14:12.534
gives to a party that –

00:14:10.220 --> 00:14:13.480
may have serious like political things

00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:14.520
that you don't believe in.

00:14:14.760 --> 00:14:15.221
You know, if,

00:14:15.322 --> 00:14:19.383
if he's talking about forcibly removing

00:14:19.442 --> 00:14:22.244
immigrants from the country and you know,

00:14:22.344 --> 00:14:22.524
like,

00:14:22.644 --> 00:14:23.583
like maybe that's something you don't

00:14:23.604 --> 00:14:23.764
believe.

00:14:23.844 --> 00:14:25.504
Maybe, I mean, like my wife is Hispanic.

00:14:26.024 --> 00:14:26.904
I don't like people.

00:14:27.325 --> 00:14:28.426
I'm just going to say here in the

00:14:28.466 --> 00:14:30.186
U S I don't like people who have

00:14:30.206 --> 00:14:31.427
that whole, like, Oh,

00:14:31.447 --> 00:14:32.386
we need to kick them all out.

00:14:32.567 --> 00:14:34.707
Like, you know, it's, I don't know, man.

00:14:35.408 --> 00:14:36.847
I think they're both valid takes is what

00:14:36.868 --> 00:14:37.307
I'm getting at.

00:14:37.327 --> 00:14:38.068
Like, if you're like, no,

00:14:38.109 --> 00:14:39.188
it's the best tool we have.

00:14:39.629 --> 00:14:41.850
it's his money and i don't think we're

00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:43.250
gonna find a better tool i i think

00:14:43.289 --> 00:14:45.030
that is a perfectly valid take but i

00:14:45.071 --> 00:14:46.331
also think it's completely reasonable that

00:14:46.350 --> 00:14:48.250
some people would be like yeah but my

00:14:48.270 --> 00:14:50.471
money is directly supporting him which is

00:14:50.591 --> 00:14:52.592
in turn directly supporting them so it's

00:14:52.633 --> 00:14:54.173
basically like i'm giving money to them

00:14:54.373 --> 00:14:57.134
but just through a proxy and i don't

00:14:57.274 --> 00:14:58.673
want to give them my money like i

00:14:58.693 --> 00:15:00.615
think that's also a perfectly valid take

00:15:01.294 --> 00:15:01.434
um

00:15:03.207 --> 00:15:03.748
Personal opinion,

00:15:03.788 --> 00:15:06.070
I think I would like to see in

00:15:06.110 --> 00:15:06.909
the community itself,

00:15:06.950 --> 00:15:07.809
I think I would like to see more

00:15:07.830 --> 00:15:08.870
appreciation for that.

00:15:08.971 --> 00:15:10.672
I think not to like kind of be

00:15:10.731 --> 00:15:12.153
judgy and call people out, but you know,

00:15:12.192 --> 00:15:14.274
this whole, like you said, again,

00:15:14.313 --> 00:15:14.813
this comment,

00:15:15.453 --> 00:15:17.134
this MOVAD drama shows how people confuse

00:15:17.174 --> 00:15:18.235
politics with engineering.

00:15:18.395 --> 00:15:20.976
No, like technology is political.

00:15:21.217 --> 00:15:22.298
I'm kind of, I don't know.

00:15:22.337 --> 00:15:23.239
I'm one of those people who thinks that

00:15:23.278 --> 00:15:24.759
everything is political when you dig deep

00:15:24.778 --> 00:15:26.200
enough and there's really no such thing as

00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:27.640
being non-political or apolitical.

00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:28.902
And so it's like,

00:15:29.241 --> 00:15:30.701
I think understanding that for some

00:15:30.721 --> 00:15:32.163
people, this is really important to them.

00:15:32.302 --> 00:15:33.323
And I think that's valid.

00:15:33.783 --> 00:15:35.105
And just having that kind of patience that

00:15:35.125 --> 00:15:35.585
for some people,

00:15:35.605 --> 00:15:36.745
they care for some people, they don't.

00:15:36.785 --> 00:15:39.626
And this is something that comes up a

00:15:39.687 --> 00:15:39.947
lot.

00:15:40.106 --> 00:15:43.089
I think most of the time when like

00:15:43.129 --> 00:15:44.750
people say that they're not going to use

00:15:44.789 --> 00:15:46.090
something that's widely recommended,

00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:48.572
like MOLFAD, we see it with Graphene OS,

00:15:48.611 --> 00:15:49.072
for example,

00:15:49.091 --> 00:15:50.052
we see it with other projects.

00:15:50.172 --> 00:15:51.533
We see it with Proton all the time,

00:15:52.153 --> 00:15:52.894
where I think

00:15:54.504 --> 00:15:56.586
When somebody says they're not going to

00:15:56.686 --> 00:15:58.167
use something for some non-technical

00:15:58.206 --> 00:15:58.447
reason,

00:15:58.486 --> 00:16:00.488
there's a group of people who get mad

00:16:00.727 --> 00:16:02.268
that they're doing that and that they're

00:16:02.308 --> 00:16:02.828
not using it,

00:16:02.849 --> 00:16:04.269
which is a reaction that doesn't make a

00:16:04.308 --> 00:16:05.570
lot of sense to me.

00:16:05.789 --> 00:16:09.312
If somebody isn't going to use Malved

00:16:09.331 --> 00:16:10.111
because of this,

00:16:10.731 --> 00:16:11.673
I don't think there needs to be a

00:16:11.692 --> 00:16:14.953
whole argument about why the politics and

00:16:14.994 --> 00:16:16.914
how this doesn't actually matter because

00:16:16.955 --> 00:16:18.056
Malved is still secure.

00:16:18.096 --> 00:16:20.657
It's fine if you don't want to financially

00:16:20.677 --> 00:16:22.317
support this sort of thing.

00:16:25.509 --> 00:16:27.129
But yeah,

00:16:27.551 --> 00:16:29.692
just kind of an annoying thing that I've

00:16:29.731 --> 00:16:32.293
seen in the community beyond Malbed's

00:16:32.313 --> 00:16:32.654
stuff.

00:16:33.134 --> 00:16:35.277
I would say the other thing I wanted

00:16:35.297 --> 00:16:36.778
to point out really quick,

00:16:36.817 --> 00:16:37.938
I did see a lot of comments in

00:16:37.958 --> 00:16:42.442
the community basically talking about the

00:16:42.501 --> 00:16:44.283
potential privacy implications for some of

00:16:44.303 --> 00:16:44.884
these policies.

00:16:44.923 --> 00:16:46.765
The re-migration one in particular,

00:16:46.785 --> 00:16:47.947
it does call into question

00:16:50.361 --> 00:16:52.744
A lot of privacy concerns about how those

00:16:52.783 --> 00:16:54.485
people would be found in Sweden,

00:16:54.565 --> 00:16:55.245
for example,

00:16:55.264 --> 00:16:57.907
and how they are determining who needs to

00:16:57.986 --> 00:16:59.067
stay and who's going to leave,

00:16:59.128 --> 00:17:00.249
what metrics are they using.

00:17:00.708 --> 00:17:02.289
Obviously, here in the United States,

00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:04.711
we've seen a lot of news about ICE,

00:17:04.811 --> 00:17:05.531
for example,

00:17:05.612 --> 00:17:07.153
and how they're using facial recognition

00:17:07.173 --> 00:17:07.532
everywhere,

00:17:07.553 --> 00:17:08.594
and they all have these apps on their

00:17:08.634 --> 00:17:10.414
phones that they can scan people with,

00:17:10.454 --> 00:17:11.816
and all of this data is being collected

00:17:12.056 --> 00:17:12.876
into databases.

00:17:13.257 --> 00:17:16.739
All of those immigration policies and some

00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:18.180
of the stuff that this party is supporting

00:17:19.266 --> 00:17:22.067
can directly have privacy implications for

00:17:22.107 --> 00:17:23.429
people living in Sweden.

00:17:23.509 --> 00:17:26.391
And obviously, we've seen already,

00:17:26.711 --> 00:17:28.813
maybe it's not obvious, but in the US,

00:17:29.833 --> 00:17:31.574
people who are not targeted by these

00:17:31.634 --> 00:17:32.194
policies,

00:17:32.234 --> 00:17:36.278
like American citizens who were born here

00:17:36.877 --> 00:17:37.337
in whatever,

00:17:40.290 --> 00:17:43.232
are are also swept up in in these

00:17:43.272 --> 00:17:44.534
privacy invasive things that the

00:17:44.554 --> 00:17:48.017
government is doing and it's very possible

00:17:48.037 --> 00:17:49.978
that if policies like this were

00:17:50.018 --> 00:17:51.720
implemented in Sweden a similar sort of

00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:54.040
thing would happen where you know it's not

00:17:54.121 --> 00:17:56.242
only going to be targeting illegal

00:17:56.262 --> 00:17:58.884
immigration but also it's going to sweep

00:17:59.045 --> 00:18:03.428
up Swedish citizens into this this whole

00:18:03.488 --> 00:18:05.569
immigration system and a lot of people I

00:18:05.609 --> 00:18:05.769
think

00:18:07.221 --> 00:18:08.801
Will probably be opposed to that just from

00:18:08.821 --> 00:18:09.942
a privacy perspective as well.

00:18:10.022 --> 00:18:11.083
I did see a lot of comments about

00:18:11.123 --> 00:18:12.383
that on the forum.

00:18:12.403 --> 00:18:14.124
So I did want to bring it up

00:18:14.163 --> 00:18:15.523
because I do think a lot of people

00:18:15.903 --> 00:18:16.565
are saying like, well,

00:18:16.585 --> 00:18:18.164
there's no privacy implications at all.

00:18:18.204 --> 00:18:19.464
So if you only care about privacy,

00:18:19.484 --> 00:18:22.546
it doesn't matter too much, right?

00:18:25.386 --> 00:18:25.527
Um,

00:18:26.723 --> 00:18:28.464
Yeah, I mean,

00:18:28.484 --> 00:18:30.086
there's so many questions and comments on

00:18:30.105 --> 00:18:30.487
this one.

00:18:31.508 --> 00:18:33.028
Let's take a couple from Jordan's been

00:18:33.088 --> 00:18:34.950
relaying some from the Signal chat.

00:18:35.509 --> 00:18:36.391
Yeah.

00:18:36.431 --> 00:18:37.211
Let's start with some of these.

00:18:37.271 --> 00:18:39.573
So how is the co-owner?

00:18:39.633 --> 00:18:40.394
I think you answered this.

00:18:40.433 --> 00:18:41.875
How is the co-owner invested in Mulvan

00:18:41.914 --> 00:18:42.414
financially?

00:18:42.474 --> 00:18:43.355
If I pay for Mulvan,

00:18:43.375 --> 00:18:44.336
in what way I pay him?

00:18:44.457 --> 00:18:45.678
Well, first of all,

00:18:46.357 --> 00:18:47.739
I think you said there are fifty fifty

00:18:47.878 --> 00:18:48.259
owners.

00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:50.661
But also, like, I want to point out,

00:18:50.701 --> 00:18:51.682
he draws a paycheck.

00:18:52.663 --> 00:18:53.683
That's my understanding.

00:18:53.743 --> 00:18:54.003
Yeah.

00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:56.820
I don't know how that aspect of it

00:18:57.020 --> 00:18:57.961
works because, you know,

00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:00.141
when you own a company,

00:19:00.241 --> 00:19:01.382
and Movit is a private company,

00:19:01.422 --> 00:19:02.741
so all of this stuff is not going

00:19:02.761 --> 00:19:05.242
to be, it doesn't have to be disclosed,

00:19:05.282 --> 00:19:05.762
basically.

00:19:05.843 --> 00:19:06.823
But when you own a company,

00:19:06.883 --> 00:19:09.124
you can take a paycheck or a salary

00:19:09.163 --> 00:19:10.644
for all of the actual work that you're

00:19:10.664 --> 00:19:10.865
doing.

00:19:11.224 --> 00:19:11.984
But then if you're an owner,

00:19:12.005 --> 00:19:13.484
you can also take profit sharing,

00:19:13.805 --> 00:19:15.625
which is usually quite a lot more.

00:19:15.846 --> 00:19:17.987
It's why you see all these billionaires

00:19:18.027 --> 00:19:18.346
who are like,

00:19:18.366 --> 00:19:21.647
my salary's a dollar because they just get

00:19:21.708 --> 00:19:22.127
all of their...

00:19:22.847 --> 00:19:24.269
money via other means so they don't need

00:19:24.288 --> 00:19:25.309
to pull an actual salary.

00:19:25.349 --> 00:19:27.090
So I'm sure he takes a salary and

00:19:27.131 --> 00:19:27.951
like normal income,

00:19:27.991 --> 00:19:29.752
but in terms of what he could be

00:19:29.792 --> 00:19:30.773
getting beyond that,

00:19:32.494 --> 00:19:33.675
I would imagine it could be up to

00:19:33.715 --> 00:19:35.457
fifty percent of the profits.

00:19:35.497 --> 00:19:37.057
I don't know who else is entitled to

00:19:37.218 --> 00:19:38.838
to get that money outside of Malved,

00:19:38.900 --> 00:19:42.801
but could potentially be quite a bit of

00:19:42.862 --> 00:19:43.202
support.

00:19:45.373 --> 00:19:46.813
Yeah, I know this isn't really the point,

00:19:46.833 --> 00:19:47.773
but just to throw that out there,

00:19:47.814 --> 00:19:48.854
that's also – it goes the other way

00:19:48.894 --> 00:19:49.094
too.

00:19:49.173 --> 00:19:50.255
Sometimes you'll see like, oh,

00:19:50.275 --> 00:19:52.394
this CEO is making like fifteen million

00:19:52.414 --> 00:19:53.675
dollars a year, and it's like, well,

00:19:53.695 --> 00:19:55.996
they're actually making less than that.

00:19:56.036 --> 00:19:57.896
But when you include all the stock options

00:19:57.936 --> 00:19:58.656
and this, that, and the other,

00:19:58.676 --> 00:19:59.237
which for the record,

00:19:59.277 --> 00:20:00.738
they're still making a disgusting amount

00:20:00.837 --> 00:20:02.357
in –

00:20:01.678 --> 00:20:02.558
Not literally disgusting,

00:20:02.598 --> 00:20:03.838
but they're still making a crap ton of

00:20:03.898 --> 00:20:05.759
money in raw liquid cash.

00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:06.240
But yeah,

00:20:06.259 --> 00:20:08.260
it's usually it's not fifteen million

00:20:08.301 --> 00:20:09.221
dollars in liquid cash.

00:20:09.261 --> 00:20:11.803
It's like some million in liquid cash and

00:20:11.823 --> 00:20:13.364
then the rest is stock options and stuff.

00:20:13.403 --> 00:20:15.025
But I don't know if all that works

00:20:15.045 --> 00:20:16.326
the same way, but I digress.

00:20:18.058 --> 00:20:20.903
Um, so yeah, uh,

00:20:20.942 --> 00:20:22.544
here's a fun one from Signal again.

00:20:22.604 --> 00:20:23.726
What were the relevant statements and

00:20:23.806 --> 00:20:25.166
actions the Mulvad company took to

00:20:25.207 --> 00:20:26.548
distance themselves from that and prevent

00:20:26.568 --> 00:20:27.108
it in the future?

00:20:27.309 --> 00:20:29.152
Uh, none really, to be totally honest.

00:20:29.332 --> 00:20:31.114
If you, I mean, if you read this,

00:20:31.173 --> 00:20:32.736
this, um, statement, it,

00:20:32.855 --> 00:20:34.718
it very specifically says that like,

00:20:36.500 --> 00:20:39.463
I don't even know how to summarize it

00:20:39.483 --> 00:20:40.345
to be totally honest,

00:20:40.365 --> 00:20:41.465
but they didn't condemn it.

00:20:41.506 --> 00:20:43.228
They didn't endorse it.

00:20:43.307 --> 00:20:45.128
They just basically said this happened and

00:20:45.148 --> 00:20:46.309
we don't care and we're just going to

00:20:46.329 --> 00:20:47.351
keep doing our thing.

00:20:47.711 --> 00:20:47.971
Yeah,

00:20:48.031 --> 00:20:49.472
their position is definitely that they're

00:20:49.492 --> 00:20:51.795
not going to police what their owners are

00:20:51.815 --> 00:20:54.978
doing or what their employees are doing or

00:20:55.278 --> 00:20:56.559
what anyone is doing in their personal

00:20:56.579 --> 00:20:56.779
time.

00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:57.359
It's just going to be...

00:20:59.028 --> 00:20:59.248
You know,

00:20:59.288 --> 00:21:01.308
Malved themselves are not going to support

00:21:01.549 --> 00:21:02.250
things like this,

00:21:02.369 --> 00:21:03.951
but what people do with the money that

00:21:03.971 --> 00:21:05.211
they earn from Malved is kind of their

00:21:05.250 --> 00:21:06.872
problem, is Malved's position.

00:21:08.532 --> 00:21:09.772
There's a question on the forum,

00:21:09.853 --> 00:21:11.874
and Jordan asked a similar question

00:21:12.315 --> 00:21:13.414
earlier in the chat,

00:21:13.875 --> 00:21:15.096
so I can kind of cover it.

00:21:15.276 --> 00:21:16.096
both of them.

00:21:16.376 --> 00:21:17.317
Jordan asked if there should be

00:21:17.357 --> 00:21:18.880
restrictions on executives making

00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:20.601
political donations to stop this sort of

00:21:20.621 --> 00:21:20.821
thing.

00:21:21.481 --> 00:21:23.463
Somebody on the forum thread asked at what

00:21:23.523 --> 00:21:25.747
point is it acceptable for an executive or

00:21:25.787 --> 00:21:27.248
lead developer to support something that

00:21:27.268 --> 00:21:28.809
could be deemed controversial.

00:21:30.111 --> 00:21:31.031
You know, at the end of the day,

00:21:31.932 --> 00:21:32.452
I think all...

00:21:33.593 --> 00:21:36.275
executives of companies that have

00:21:36.675 --> 00:21:39.438
customers like mall fad are public

00:21:39.478 --> 00:21:40.858
figures, whether they like it or not.

00:21:40.919 --> 00:21:42.359
And so all of their the things that

00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:43.801
they do in their personal lives and the

00:21:43.842 --> 00:21:44.883
personal choices that they make,

00:21:44.942 --> 00:21:47.565
they're gonna have business impact.

00:21:48.144 --> 00:21:48.566
And obviously,

00:21:48.586 --> 00:21:50.126
this has had some business impact at mall

00:21:50.146 --> 00:21:51.228
that because they had to speak out about

00:21:51.248 --> 00:21:51.347
it.

00:21:51.367 --> 00:21:52.269
And a lot of people are saying that

00:21:52.288 --> 00:21:56.231
they're canceling because of the co owners

00:21:56.491 --> 00:21:58.693
personal decision here.

00:21:59.414 --> 00:21:59.615
So

00:22:02.560 --> 00:22:03.741
mean it's always going to have an impact

00:22:03.961 --> 00:22:05.623
at what point is it controversial or

00:22:05.643 --> 00:22:07.663
should there be restrictions it really

00:22:07.682 --> 00:22:09.544
just depends on the company i think you

00:22:09.564 --> 00:22:12.465
know it's not unreasonable i i was

00:22:13.205 --> 00:22:15.267
explaining this on the form uh in the

00:22:15.307 --> 00:22:16.728
form thread about this to somebody but

00:22:16.768 --> 00:22:18.828
like it is fairly normal when you're

00:22:18.848 --> 00:22:20.890
dealing with public figures whether that's

00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:22.691
an executive of a company or if you're

00:22:22.750 --> 00:22:24.550
like hiring an actor for a movie or

00:22:24.590 --> 00:22:26.873
something to have clauses in their

00:22:26.913 --> 00:22:28.813
contract or morality clauses that kind of

00:22:28.873 --> 00:22:29.594
restrict them from

00:22:30.796 --> 00:22:33.219
doing controversial things like this

00:22:33.259 --> 00:22:35.741
because it does have an actual impact on

00:22:35.761 --> 00:22:36.522
the business itself.

00:22:36.563 --> 00:22:37.944
It's not just a personal thing.

00:22:38.806 --> 00:22:42.369
So like that is something that well that

00:22:42.410 --> 00:22:44.132
could do but whether they should do that.

00:22:45.121 --> 00:22:46.561
is another question entirely and it kind

00:22:46.602 --> 00:22:49.763
of comes down to what the company thinks

00:22:49.804 --> 00:22:52.285
is an acceptable risk i mean it's not

00:22:52.305 --> 00:22:55.046
like you can mandate this and make like

00:22:55.586 --> 00:22:57.948
make it a law or anything um it's

00:22:57.988 --> 00:23:00.709
just it comes down to whether malvad wants

00:23:00.749 --> 00:23:03.490
to accept that uh it's gonna have an

00:23:03.529 --> 00:23:07.172
impact on their business and it seems

00:23:07.211 --> 00:23:08.512
clear from their statement that they are

00:23:08.532 --> 00:23:10.534
just going to accept that as a as

00:23:10.554 --> 00:23:12.035
just the fact of life for their business

00:23:13.990 --> 00:23:14.631
A similar story,

00:23:14.711 --> 00:23:15.571
I don't know how many people,

00:23:16.372 --> 00:23:17.432
maybe not a lot of people know about

00:23:17.451 --> 00:23:17.571
this,

00:23:17.612 --> 00:23:19.212
but I've read a lot about it because

00:23:19.772 --> 00:23:21.673
I've been looking for merch and stuff for

00:23:21.693 --> 00:23:23.094
privacy guides and I see people talking

00:23:23.114 --> 00:23:24.575
about it on Mastodon,

00:23:24.634 --> 00:23:25.954
but a lot of people used to really

00:23:25.994 --> 00:23:28.096
like Sticker Mule for stickers and then

00:23:29.336 --> 00:23:31.096
their owner turned out to be a big

00:23:31.136 --> 00:23:31.777
Trump supporter,

00:23:31.798 --> 00:23:32.817
so now a lot of people don't want

00:23:32.837 --> 00:23:34.878
to support that company mainly based on

00:23:34.919 --> 00:23:35.159
that.

00:23:35.979 --> 00:23:37.500
So it's kind of a similar thing.

00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:40.260
the personal leanings of the owners of

00:23:40.280 --> 00:23:41.682
these companies is going to have a

00:23:42.342 --> 00:23:43.682
significant business impact,

00:23:44.463 --> 00:23:45.744
whether you or they like it or not.

00:23:45.805 --> 00:23:49.988
It's just how it is.

00:23:50.028 --> 00:23:52.990
Yeah, I don't know.

00:23:53.009 --> 00:23:53.430
I don't know.

00:23:53.529 --> 00:23:54.411
I don't think I have much to add

00:23:54.431 --> 00:23:55.872
to that because I'm with you in the

00:23:55.912 --> 00:23:57.472
sense that I don't really know where that

00:23:57.492 --> 00:23:59.233
line should be because on the one part,

00:23:59.773 --> 00:24:03.817
they are public figures and you're right

00:24:03.836 --> 00:24:04.436
about that stuff.

00:24:05.077 --> 00:24:06.239
And people are going to have those

00:24:06.278 --> 00:24:07.439
reactions either way, right?

00:24:07.539 --> 00:24:08.039
I mean, like,

00:24:09.755 --> 00:24:11.016
it happens on both sides of the aisle.

00:24:11.056 --> 00:24:11.556
Look at, you know,

00:24:11.596 --> 00:24:13.877
Bud Light had like a trans person as

00:24:13.917 --> 00:24:15.618
their spokesperson at one point,

00:24:15.659 --> 00:24:17.200
which was really weird to be honest for

00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:17.640
Bud Light.

00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:19.240
That was definitely off brand for them.

00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:20.061
But you know,

00:24:20.362 --> 00:24:21.803
it happens on both sides of the aisle.

00:24:21.843 --> 00:24:23.243
And, but at the same time, it's like,

00:24:23.364 --> 00:24:23.784
as a person,

00:24:23.804 --> 00:24:24.584
like I remember when I was in the

00:24:24.604 --> 00:24:26.025
military, that was the rule there is like,

00:24:26.065 --> 00:24:27.605
you don't do anything public,

00:24:27.746 --> 00:24:28.686
especially in uniform.

00:24:28.727 --> 00:24:30.807
Like, yeah, go vote, go do whatever.

00:24:30.867 --> 00:24:31.209
But like,

00:24:31.648 --> 00:24:34.029
you are not allowed to speak out publicly

00:24:34.590 --> 00:24:36.352
as a uniformed military member and be

00:24:36.392 --> 00:24:36.551
like,

00:24:36.711 --> 00:24:38.432
I support Obama or whatever publicly.

00:24:38.813 --> 00:24:42.355
um so yeah it's it's it's i think

00:24:42.375 --> 00:24:44.076
that's where this whole like i think

00:24:44.096 --> 00:24:46.519
that's where a lot of the controversy is

00:24:46.558 --> 00:24:48.800
coming from is where is the line between

00:24:48.861 --> 00:24:51.061
like this person is an individual who has

00:24:51.102 --> 00:24:52.643
the right to support whatever ideas they

00:24:52.682 --> 00:24:55.345
want even if they're garbage ideas and you

00:24:55.365 --> 00:24:56.986
know where is the line between that and

00:24:57.027 --> 00:24:59.627
like well your your customers have an

00:24:59.667 --> 00:25:00.848
expectation of you and i think you made

00:25:00.868 --> 00:25:02.029
a really good point that like the company

00:25:02.069 --> 00:25:04.632
definitely depends a lot i think if you're

00:25:04.692 --> 00:25:05.353
in like um

00:25:06.262 --> 00:25:07.962
If it's like some kind of nonprofit that's

00:25:07.982 --> 00:25:09.903
like providing legal assistance for

00:25:09.983 --> 00:25:11.344
immigrants and then they go out and donate

00:25:11.384 --> 00:25:12.284
a bunch of money to Trump,

00:25:12.304 --> 00:25:13.404
that would be super weird.

00:25:14.585 --> 00:25:16.265
But yeah, I don't know.

00:25:16.325 --> 00:25:17.546
It's tricky for sure.

00:25:18.066 --> 00:25:19.625
Kind of related that we had a comment,

00:25:20.346 --> 00:25:24.146
kind of an opinion from either you,

00:25:24.326 --> 00:25:25.928
hopefully I'm saying that somewhat

00:25:25.948 --> 00:25:26.407
correctly,

00:25:26.988 --> 00:25:28.587
who said that voting with your wallet is

00:25:28.627 --> 00:25:29.628
valid for personal ethics,

00:25:29.648 --> 00:25:30.528
but in threat modeling,

00:25:30.729 --> 00:25:32.709
prioritizing political alignment over

00:25:32.788 --> 00:25:35.329
technical robustness is a trade off.

00:25:37.372 --> 00:25:39.394
Kind of two things I want to unpack

00:25:39.433 --> 00:25:39.713
here.

00:25:40.555 --> 00:25:41.355
The first thing is simple.

00:25:41.415 --> 00:25:43.517
I think with VPN companies in particular,

00:25:43.778 --> 00:25:45.940
we got to understand that these are not

00:25:46.576 --> 00:25:48.977
zero trust technologies like you're

00:25:48.997 --> 00:25:49.576
talking about,

00:25:49.636 --> 00:25:51.356
you do have to trust your VPN provider.

00:25:51.376 --> 00:25:52.897
And so this kind of thing does come

00:25:52.938 --> 00:25:55.538
into play because a VPN provider is

00:25:55.577 --> 00:25:57.699
basically like an ISP.

00:25:57.719 --> 00:25:59.378
You're just shifting your trust to that

00:25:59.398 --> 00:25:59.799
VPN.

00:25:59.819 --> 00:26:03.141
You're not eliminating the risk involved

00:26:03.181 --> 00:26:05.461
with an ISP seeing all of your data.

00:26:05.701 --> 00:26:07.162
That's what we're pretty clear about on

00:26:07.201 --> 00:26:08.882
our site is the main use case for

00:26:09.221 --> 00:26:09.682
a VPN.

00:26:09.701 --> 00:26:10.762
So if you don't trust the VPN,

00:26:10.782 --> 00:26:12.903
there's literally no point in using it.

00:26:12.942 --> 00:26:14.143
And this is a trust question.

00:26:16.223 --> 00:26:18.785
but when it does come to zero trust

00:26:18.805 --> 00:26:20.605
things or things that can be more

00:26:21.486 --> 00:26:24.067
technically cryptographically proven uh

00:26:24.107 --> 00:26:25.167
you know i think there is a solid

00:26:25.208 --> 00:26:26.628
point here going back to what i was

00:26:26.669 --> 00:26:30.590
saying about um graphene os for example or

00:26:30.711 --> 00:26:33.672
proton mail with with these sort of things

00:26:33.692 --> 00:26:34.771
there are guarantees there's

00:26:34.813 --> 00:26:37.713
inspectability so people can um like

00:26:38.314 --> 00:26:40.174
see what code is running on Graphene OS.

00:26:40.214 --> 00:26:40.815
It's open source.

00:26:40.835 --> 00:26:42.994
People can see, like,

00:26:43.095 --> 00:26:45.115
Proton is using end-to-end encryption,

00:26:45.155 --> 00:26:47.596
so they can't read all of your messages

00:26:48.017 --> 00:26:48.477
at rest.

00:26:48.537 --> 00:26:50.916
That sort of thing is important,

00:26:51.157 --> 00:26:52.298
and it does eliminate trust,

00:26:52.377 --> 00:26:54.298
and I think when you can eliminate trust

00:26:54.337 --> 00:26:55.078
whenever possible,

00:26:55.118 --> 00:26:58.058
which is ideally how all privacy products

00:26:58.078 --> 00:26:58.599
would work,

00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:01.460
then this kind of thing does become less

00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:02.320
important over time,

00:27:02.361 --> 00:27:04.161
and it is more of just a personal

00:27:05.080 --> 00:27:06.882
morals thing at that point.

00:27:07.721 --> 00:27:09.422
I don't feel that bad about it in

00:27:09.461 --> 00:27:09.982
this case,

00:27:10.022 --> 00:27:11.782
because there are perfectly good

00:27:12.022 --> 00:27:13.923
alternative VPN providers you can choose

00:27:13.943 --> 00:27:14.104
from.

00:27:14.124 --> 00:27:16.104
We have other recommendations on our site.

00:27:16.723 --> 00:27:19.845
Whether this is going to cause us to

00:27:20.905 --> 00:27:23.346
change our recommendations on our site and

00:27:23.486 --> 00:27:24.365
stop listing Malvet,

00:27:24.385 --> 00:27:25.386
I don't think it's going to.

00:27:25.426 --> 00:27:26.386
And in fact,

00:27:26.446 --> 00:27:28.487
despite how controversial this topic has

00:27:28.508 --> 00:27:29.647
been and how many people are posting about

00:27:29.667 --> 00:27:29.748
it,

00:27:29.807 --> 00:27:31.667
I haven't seen anybody really suggest that

00:27:31.728 --> 00:27:33.148
we do that.

00:27:35.528 --> 00:27:35.769
You know,

00:27:36.190 --> 00:27:38.771
you can definitely separate it a bit.

00:27:40.333 --> 00:27:41.374
But in the case of a VPN,

00:27:41.394 --> 00:27:44.277
I do think it's valid to be concerned

00:27:44.297 --> 00:27:45.377
about this at the very least.

00:27:47.232 --> 00:27:47.393
Yeah.

00:27:47.492 --> 00:27:48.114
On that note,

00:27:48.253 --> 00:27:49.153
I did want to make sure that we

00:27:49.193 --> 00:27:50.934
pointed out that, um, not,

00:27:51.675 --> 00:27:52.916
not trying to tell people what side they

00:27:52.936 --> 00:27:53.317
should take,

00:27:53.376 --> 00:27:57.779
but this is not something that at this

00:27:57.819 --> 00:27:58.299
point in time,

00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:00.040
we have any reason to believe is impacting

00:28:00.080 --> 00:28:01.942
mold ads, actual technical product.

00:28:02.242 --> 00:28:02.583
So again,

00:28:02.623 --> 00:28:03.683
going back to that argument of like,

00:28:03.723 --> 00:28:05.305
some people are like, I don't care.

00:28:05.365 --> 00:28:05.845
It's his money.

00:28:05.865 --> 00:28:06.486
It's his business.

00:28:06.526 --> 00:28:07.306
The product is solid.

00:28:07.326 --> 00:28:08.906
The product is still solid as far as

00:28:08.926 --> 00:28:09.748
we know at this time.

00:28:10.468 --> 00:28:10.989
And, um,

00:28:12.269 --> 00:28:14.470
I think that's something worth noting.

00:28:15.109 --> 00:28:16.950
And kind of related to what you were

00:28:16.970 --> 00:28:19.310
just asking, somebody in the forum asked,

00:28:20.330 --> 00:28:21.551
I'd like to know from the staff what

00:28:21.571 --> 00:28:22.771
they think of Mulvad versus other

00:28:22.791 --> 00:28:24.152
companies in terms of what they contribute

00:28:24.251 --> 00:28:24.751
overall.

00:28:24.832 --> 00:28:26.093
Are they offering unique benefits,

00:28:26.153 --> 00:28:27.613
not just in their current VPN where we

00:28:27.653 --> 00:28:28.653
know there are other good options,

00:28:28.692 --> 00:28:29.854
but in terms of what they bring to

00:28:29.874 --> 00:28:31.034
development, research, privacy,

00:28:31.054 --> 00:28:31.953
advocation, et cetera?

00:28:32.473 --> 00:28:33.835
And honestly, yeah, kind of.

00:28:35.915 --> 00:28:36.935
I don't know how I feel about sticking

00:28:36.976 --> 00:28:38.277
up for Mulvad because I'll make it clear.

00:28:38.336 --> 00:28:40.857
I don't agree with the policies of this

00:28:40.877 --> 00:28:41.877
party that he supported.

00:28:42.417 --> 00:28:45.960
But they ran a huge campaign all around

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:50.361
the world to try and bring privacy more

00:28:50.381 --> 00:28:50.842
to the mainstream.

00:28:50.922 --> 00:28:53.742
I remember seeing Mulvad buses when I was

00:28:53.762 --> 00:28:55.383
in Seattle for something last year.

00:28:55.403 --> 00:28:56.523
And I saw the Mulvad buses and I

00:28:56.564 --> 00:28:57.223
tried to grab a picture,

00:28:57.243 --> 00:28:58.044
but they went by too fast.

00:28:58.064 --> 00:28:58.765
I was like, oh, that's cool.

00:28:58.785 --> 00:28:59.164
There they are.

00:28:59.585 --> 00:29:01.026
But they ran this big ad campaign.

00:29:01.145 --> 00:29:01.566
I think they've been...

00:29:02.506 --> 00:29:03.027
I could be wrong,

00:29:03.047 --> 00:29:04.229
but I think they've been pretty vocal

00:29:04.308 --> 00:29:05.790
about being against chat control.

00:29:05.810 --> 00:29:12.060
I mean, you say research and development.

00:29:12.101 --> 00:29:13.363
They do a lot of innovative things,

00:29:13.403 --> 00:29:13.942
in my opinion,

00:29:13.983 --> 00:29:15.445
like these RAM-only servers and

00:29:15.847 --> 00:29:17.769
their data service, things like that.

00:29:17.808 --> 00:29:18.250
So like, yeah,

00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:19.530
I think they are really innovative.

00:29:19.671 --> 00:29:20.771
And actually there was one other thing I

00:29:20.791 --> 00:29:21.412
was gonna point out.

00:29:22.031 --> 00:29:23.252
They're not unique.

00:29:23.794 --> 00:29:24.814
I'm gonna share this tab real quick.

00:29:25.394 --> 00:29:26.915
Jordan brought this to my attention a

00:29:26.955 --> 00:29:28.196
while back when we were chatting.

00:29:28.676 --> 00:29:29.617
There's a Medium post.

00:29:30.238 --> 00:29:32.819
After Andy N went and like made some

00:29:32.859 --> 00:29:34.141
kind of pro-Trump comments,

00:29:34.721 --> 00:29:36.063
somebody kind of pointed out, and to me,

00:29:36.163 --> 00:29:36.583
for the record,

00:29:36.702 --> 00:29:37.723
I take this post with a little bit

00:29:37.743 --> 00:29:38.845
of a grain of salt because this person

00:29:38.865 --> 00:29:40.746
has never posted anything before or since.

00:29:41.425 --> 00:29:43.048
And, but, you know,

00:29:43.307 --> 00:29:44.288
they point out that like,

00:29:45.756 --> 00:29:49.538
Proton has historically donated to a lot

00:29:49.578 --> 00:29:52.201
of organizations that are not necessarily

00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:53.962
aligned with stuff like that.

00:29:54.702 --> 00:29:56.084
And so anyways, my point being is like,

00:29:56.104 --> 00:29:56.444
yeah,

00:29:57.025 --> 00:29:58.605
MoVAD is not the only company that's out

00:29:58.645 --> 00:30:00.728
there donating to good or to,

00:30:01.008 --> 00:30:03.210
I shouldn't say good organization.

00:30:03.250 --> 00:30:03.650
MoVAD's...

00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:06.221
Putting this issue aside,

00:30:06.340 --> 00:30:07.782
there are other companies that are out

00:30:07.803 --> 00:30:09.845
there doing good things in the privacy

00:30:09.865 --> 00:30:11.566
space for advocacy and research and stuff

00:30:11.586 --> 00:30:12.007
like that.

00:30:12.567 --> 00:30:14.128
And I wanted to tie that back into

00:30:14.148 --> 00:30:15.930
what you said with that question.

00:30:16.029 --> 00:30:17.711
It mentioned threat modeling.

00:30:18.492 --> 00:30:20.013
And yeah, you could go with,

00:30:20.914 --> 00:30:22.115
I would feel pretty safe saying that I

00:30:22.135 --> 00:30:23.637
think Moldat is probably the best option

00:30:23.678 --> 00:30:25.358
right now in terms of privacy and security

00:30:25.459 --> 00:30:26.000
and a VPN.

00:30:26.619 --> 00:30:27.380
But at the same time,

00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:28.320
what is your threat model?

00:30:28.500 --> 00:30:28.661
Like,

00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:30.161
if your threat model is so high that

00:30:30.181 --> 00:30:31.500
you cannot afford anything less than

00:30:31.520 --> 00:30:31.881
MoVet,

00:30:32.442 --> 00:30:34.662
you probably shouldn't be using a VPN.

00:30:34.682 --> 00:30:36.482
You should probably be using Tor or

00:30:36.522 --> 00:30:37.242
something like that.

00:30:37.742 --> 00:30:40.544
But, you know, Proton is still good.

00:30:40.723 --> 00:30:41.784
IVPN is still good.

00:30:41.923 --> 00:30:42.084
Like,

00:30:42.163 --> 00:30:43.805
I think there are still good options out

00:30:43.825 --> 00:30:45.785
there where for your threat model,

00:30:45.825 --> 00:30:47.346
you don't have to sacrifice privacy and

00:30:47.365 --> 00:30:50.125
security to also still be ideological.

00:30:50.165 --> 00:30:50.425
So, yeah.

00:30:50.605 --> 00:30:52.267
Okay.

00:30:54.577 --> 00:30:56.759
I will add though, on the other hand,

00:30:57.500 --> 00:30:59.123
while there are companies that are doing

00:30:59.182 --> 00:31:00.403
innovative things just like Mulvet,

00:31:00.523 --> 00:31:04.587
I think there are probably companies where

00:31:04.607 --> 00:31:07.109
their leadership or employees are doing

00:31:07.150 --> 00:31:09.112
controversial things that you don't know

00:31:09.132 --> 00:31:09.952
about and haven't heard about.

00:31:09.992 --> 00:31:10.894
Some of these things are kind of

00:31:11.013 --> 00:31:11.554
unknowable.

00:31:13.516 --> 00:31:14.777
And so that's what makes it hard,

00:31:14.817 --> 00:31:15.057
I think,

00:31:15.097 --> 00:31:17.500
to base your decisions around this.

00:31:19.096 --> 00:31:19.296
I mean,

00:31:19.355 --> 00:31:21.057
now it's kind of proven that if you

00:31:21.077 --> 00:31:23.279
don't agree with the ethics of the

00:31:23.299 --> 00:31:23.799
situation,

00:31:23.941 --> 00:31:25.582
now you have proof that Malved is

00:31:25.761 --> 00:31:26.782
unethical in your eyes.

00:31:28.424 --> 00:31:30.326
But you can never really prove that a

00:31:30.365 --> 00:31:33.750
different company is any more ethical than

00:31:33.789 --> 00:31:34.009
that,

00:31:34.029 --> 00:31:35.750
because they could be making very similar

00:31:35.770 --> 00:31:37.653
donations behind the scenes that you just

00:31:37.873 --> 00:31:39.275
have not heard about.

00:31:39.295 --> 00:31:41.517
So it's why it's the sort of thing

00:31:41.576 --> 00:31:42.657
that it's hard to...

00:31:44.403 --> 00:31:46.505
take as a huge factor when you're making

00:31:46.724 --> 00:31:48.266
a purchasing decision, for example,

00:31:48.547 --> 00:31:49.146
in my opinion.

00:31:51.809 --> 00:31:56.212
Yeah, for sure.

00:31:56.253 --> 00:31:57.193
I don't want to be too defensive,

00:31:57.213 --> 00:31:58.454
but I do want to point out Gaethje

00:31:58.474 --> 00:31:59.455
said, both sides of the aisle.

00:31:59.496 --> 00:32:00.537
Bud Light, as we support people,

00:32:00.576 --> 00:32:01.018
be yourself.

00:32:01.377 --> 00:32:01.837
For the record,

00:32:01.877 --> 00:32:02.939
that's not what I meant when I said

00:32:02.979 --> 00:32:03.400
both sides.

00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:04.800
What I meant is that both sides do

00:32:04.840 --> 00:32:06.883
things that alienate their fan base.

00:32:07.983 --> 00:32:08.203
No,

00:32:08.364 --> 00:32:09.565
I do not believe that both sides are

00:32:09.585 --> 00:32:10.746
the same, personally.

00:32:10.987 --> 00:32:11.106
So...

00:32:12.188 --> 00:32:13.328
I just mean they both do things that

00:32:13.368 --> 00:32:15.829
alienate people, but I digress.

00:32:19.030 --> 00:32:19.211
Wow.

00:32:19.230 --> 00:32:20.332
We spent a lot of time on that

00:32:20.352 --> 00:32:20.951
story, but that is,

00:32:21.172 --> 00:32:22.752
it's such a complicated story.

00:32:22.833 --> 00:32:24.193
It's just, and it's, again,

00:32:24.233 --> 00:32:25.294
I want to reiterate in my personal

00:32:25.334 --> 00:32:25.634
opinion,

00:32:25.653 --> 00:32:27.515
like I think both arguments are valid.

00:32:27.535 --> 00:32:28.355
If you're like, well,

00:32:28.375 --> 00:32:29.635
that's the best VPN and you want to

00:32:29.655 --> 00:32:30.676
stick with it, go for it.

00:32:30.737 --> 00:32:32.837
But just be aware where your money's going

00:32:32.877 --> 00:32:33.518
and vice versa.

00:32:33.538 --> 00:32:34.858
If you're like, nah, screw these guys.

00:32:34.878 --> 00:32:36.118
I want to take my money somewhere else.

00:32:36.159 --> 00:32:37.740
Like, I think that's cool too, personally.

00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:38.039
So.

00:32:40.734 --> 00:32:41.955
Was there anything else we wanted to add

00:32:41.996 --> 00:32:42.955
to that one before we move on to

00:32:42.976 --> 00:32:43.457
the next story?

00:32:45.699 --> 00:32:46.479
Yeah,

00:32:46.900 --> 00:32:48.240
let me just look at the questions quick.

00:32:48.320 --> 00:32:50.903
I don't think there's any remaining that

00:32:50.923 --> 00:32:52.284
we haven't answered,

00:32:52.324 --> 00:32:55.026
at least about Malvad.

00:32:55.366 --> 00:32:57.048
So we can kind of move on.

00:32:57.107 --> 00:32:59.589
But if we missed any or if we

00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:00.951
missed one in Signal,

00:33:01.391 --> 00:33:02.711
feel free to send it again and we

00:33:02.731 --> 00:33:03.192
can look at it.

00:33:03.553 --> 00:33:05.815
otherwise i think it's probably a good

00:33:05.855 --> 00:33:07.635
time to move on to our next story

00:33:07.675 --> 00:33:11.238
here uh before i talk about that one

00:33:11.278 --> 00:33:13.859
though i want to go back to some

00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.621
defcon questions we had from earlier

00:33:16.721 --> 00:33:18.843
somebody on youtube dragon black knight

00:33:18.942 --> 00:33:20.804
asked about hope i'm not going to go

00:33:20.824 --> 00:33:23.144
to hope um there are so many conferences

00:33:23.184 --> 00:33:24.986
that i would like to go to uh

00:33:25.125 --> 00:33:26.968
carrie parker from firewalls don't stop

00:33:27.008 --> 00:33:28.608
dragons is in the uh

00:33:29.348 --> 00:33:32.352
is in the chat and explained why he

00:33:32.372 --> 00:33:32.952
wouldn't be going.

00:33:33.012 --> 00:33:34.434
And it's pretty much the same reason for

00:33:34.474 --> 00:33:34.575
me.

00:33:34.615 --> 00:33:36.436
That's kind of a lot to be doing

00:33:36.457 --> 00:33:36.836
right now.

00:33:37.617 --> 00:33:40.820
But there are a lot of cool conferences

00:33:40.922 --> 00:33:42.522
to go to and there's cool ones in

00:33:42.643 --> 00:33:43.744
Europe that I would like to go to

00:33:43.765 --> 00:33:44.384
maybe next year.

00:33:44.424 --> 00:33:46.047
But at the moment,

00:33:48.569 --> 00:33:51.152
no i have no other plans for for

00:33:51.251 --> 00:33:54.673
any of that uh somebody else uh in

00:33:54.753 --> 00:33:57.395
our signal chat uh in jordan shared this

00:33:57.435 --> 00:33:59.718
here um as if we're doing any kind

00:33:59.758 --> 00:34:02.859
of meetup at defcon and no privacy guys

00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.780
isn't doing anything at defcon but if

00:34:04.800 --> 00:34:07.323
anybody does want to meet up um send

00:34:07.343 --> 00:34:09.063
me a message because i would love to

00:34:09.083 --> 00:34:11.686
say hi to people who watch this stream

00:34:11.885 --> 00:34:12.186
or or

00:34:13.106 --> 00:34:14.528
are familiar with privacy guides in any

00:34:14.548 --> 00:34:16.311
way so i will be there i'll be

00:34:16.331 --> 00:34:21.858
there uh six through the ninth so yeah

00:34:22.378 --> 00:34:23.400
come say come say hi

00:34:24.813 --> 00:34:26.094
I didn't put two and two together that

00:34:26.114 --> 00:34:27.255
that was about the DEF CON thing.

00:34:27.295 --> 00:34:28.856
I just saw his privacy guides doing any

00:34:28.896 --> 00:34:29.797
kind of meetup, and I'm like,

00:34:29.838 --> 00:34:31.159
that's kind of out of left field.

00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:32.501
Why would we be doing a meetup at

00:34:33.342 --> 00:34:33.722
DEF CON?

00:34:33.762 --> 00:34:34.342
That makes sense.

00:34:34.402 --> 00:34:34.563
Yeah,

00:34:34.583 --> 00:34:36.244
there was a bit more context in the

00:34:36.364 --> 00:34:38.847
signal group than in the chat shared

00:34:38.887 --> 00:34:39.126
there.

00:34:40.128 --> 00:34:40.409
Yeah,

00:34:40.708 --> 00:34:41.730
I need to add the signal chat to

00:34:41.750 --> 00:34:43.030
this computer so I can read it during

00:34:43.050 --> 00:34:43.492
the streams.

00:34:43.632 --> 00:34:44.733
I'll have that in time for next week.

00:34:46.817 --> 00:34:47.297
Alright,

00:34:47.317 --> 00:34:49.697
I think that's kind of that for now.

00:34:49.757 --> 00:34:51.998
We'll move on to this story posted by

00:34:52.038 --> 00:34:53.699
the EFF.

00:34:54.498 --> 00:34:55.079
The headline is,

00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:57.079
An explosion of surveillance towers is

00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:58.320
coming to US borders,

00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.579
costing over one billion dollars.

00:35:02.201 --> 00:35:03.820
A new report from the Government

00:35:03.860 --> 00:35:05.340
Accounting Office reveals that the

00:35:05.380 --> 00:35:07.561
Department of Homeland Security, DHS,

00:35:08.751 --> 00:35:10.773
plans to nearly triple the number of

00:35:10.813 --> 00:35:12.434
surveillance towers along U.S.

00:35:12.454 --> 00:35:13.914
borders from the current eight hundred

00:35:13.954 --> 00:35:16.876
thirty to twenty three hundred by twenty

00:35:16.956 --> 00:35:18.036
thirty four.

00:35:19.697 --> 00:35:21.958
EFF says here that the IST program

00:35:22.059 --> 00:35:24.119
operates autonomous surveillance towers

00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:25.059
consisting of

00:35:27.617 --> 00:35:29.838
AI-based systems using radar, thermal,

00:35:29.938 --> 00:35:30.420
infrared,

00:35:30.500 --> 00:35:32.400
and optical systems to track targets over

00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:33.181
long distances,

00:35:33.702 --> 00:35:35.164
integrated fixed towers which are

00:35:35.244 --> 00:35:37.126
optimized for surveilling foot traffic and

00:35:37.146 --> 00:35:37.646
vehicles,

00:35:37.826 --> 00:35:39.708
and remote video surveillance systems

00:35:39.748 --> 00:35:41.329
which can often be found very close to

00:35:41.349 --> 00:35:42.630
the border fence in Arizona,

00:35:42.931 --> 00:35:44.572
including residential neighborhoods where

00:35:44.612 --> 00:35:47.735
cameras are capable of spying on homes on

00:35:47.795 --> 00:35:49.717
both sides of the border.

00:35:51.139 --> 00:35:54.461
They say that DHS expects to purchase more

00:35:54.581 --> 00:35:56.543
long-range autonomous towers and to

00:35:56.623 --> 00:35:58.545
upgrade existing towers with autonomous

00:35:58.585 --> 00:35:59.327
capabilities.

00:35:59.748 --> 00:36:02.030
The one billion dollars comes from the

00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:04.271
so-called One Big Beautiful Act,

00:36:04.893 --> 00:36:06.715
a massive tax in spending law that

00:36:06.775 --> 00:36:08.777
President Trump signed into law in twenty

00:36:08.817 --> 00:36:09.577
twenty five.

00:36:11.371 --> 00:36:12.932
They point out that the technology isn't

00:36:12.992 --> 00:36:13.813
exclusive to U.S.

00:36:13.833 --> 00:36:14.634
federal agencies.

00:36:14.653 --> 00:36:16.815
It's also deployed by state and local law

00:36:16.835 --> 00:36:17.295
enforcement,

00:36:17.355 --> 00:36:19.956
and it's also deployed by governments on

00:36:20.317 --> 00:36:21.117
the Mexican side.

00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:25.820
So yeah, a lot to unpack there.

00:36:25.940 --> 00:36:26.139
Nate,

00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:27.161
what are you thinking about all that?

00:36:30.282 --> 00:36:30.583
Yeah,

00:36:31.862 --> 00:36:32.903
I think the big thing that stuck out

00:36:32.943 --> 00:36:33.844
to me, I mean, first of all,

00:36:33.884 --> 00:36:35.224
I think we kind of wanted to share

00:36:35.264 --> 00:36:36.885
this because like, yeah,

00:36:38.407 --> 00:36:39.726
that's a lot of surveillance towers.

00:36:39.827 --> 00:36:40.447
I'm assuming they're

00:36:42.152 --> 00:36:43.713
relatively cheap in the sense that a

00:36:43.753 --> 00:36:45.355
billion dollars probably buys quite a few

00:36:45.394 --> 00:36:47.536
of them um the the thing that stuck

00:36:47.577 --> 00:36:48.717
out i guess we know how many it

00:36:48.777 --> 00:36:50.858
buys right what's the twenty three hundred

00:36:50.898 --> 00:36:52.340
minus did they say oh yeah eight hundred

00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:54.882
thirty fourteen one thousand four hundred

00:36:54.902 --> 00:36:57.063
seventy yeah i mean to be fair that

00:36:57.103 --> 00:36:58.804
probably includes like install costs and

00:36:58.844 --> 00:37:01.766
stuff yeah yeah but um no so the

00:37:01.806 --> 00:37:03.547
thing that jumped out at me is um

00:37:05.367 --> 00:37:07.409
I have driven cross country multiple times

00:37:07.648 --> 00:37:10.371
and driving through El Paso,

00:37:10.451 --> 00:37:12.472
like if you're crossing from El Paso to

00:37:12.512 --> 00:37:13.773
New Mexico or vice versa,

00:37:14.313 --> 00:37:16.253
is a really wild experience because you

00:37:16.293 --> 00:37:18.956
can literally look out one window and see

00:37:18.976 --> 00:37:20.117
this like beautiful,

00:37:20.277 --> 00:37:21.336
I think it's like a university or

00:37:21.356 --> 00:37:21.657
something,

00:37:21.737 --> 00:37:24.179
literally sitting on a hill and it's huge

00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:24.798
and it's gorgeous.

00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:26.860
And then you look to the other side

00:37:27.380 --> 00:37:28.802
and you can see the,

00:37:29.722 --> 00:37:30.322
what do they call them?

00:37:30.463 --> 00:37:30.802
The like,

00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:34.101
the little sheet metal shanty towns in

00:37:34.181 --> 00:37:35.641
Juarez, literally across the...

00:37:35.702 --> 00:37:36.262
I'm not kidding.

00:37:36.342 --> 00:37:38.003
It is a very surreal experience.

00:37:38.643 --> 00:37:40.505
And I know that in towns like that,

00:37:40.545 --> 00:37:42.106
where there are towns that literally butt

00:37:42.126 --> 00:37:42.865
up against the border,

00:37:43.206 --> 00:37:44.827
some people cross back and forth for work,

00:37:44.847 --> 00:37:45.748
but a lot of people don't.

00:37:45.887 --> 00:37:47.088
And my first thought is like,

00:37:47.748 --> 00:37:49.630
there's no way that these cameras won't be

00:37:49.989 --> 00:37:50.690
catching people

00:37:51.490 --> 00:37:52.831
who are just going about their business

00:37:52.992 --> 00:37:55.193
you know it's it's it's designed to

00:37:55.233 --> 00:37:56.715
monitor the border right and people

00:37:56.775 --> 00:37:58.675
crossing the border but there's no way

00:37:58.715 --> 00:38:00.056
it's not going to catch the people when

00:38:00.077 --> 00:38:01.998
the towns are literally that close it's

00:38:02.038 --> 00:38:03.338
not going to catch the people driving down

00:38:03.378 --> 00:38:05.701
the highway walking their dog going to

00:38:05.721 --> 00:38:08.382
school going to work on their side of

00:38:08.402 --> 00:38:10.003
the border like it's just it's going to

00:38:10.023 --> 00:38:13.945
catch everybody and that um that very much

00:38:14.467 --> 00:38:15.507
uh was kind of my first thought of

00:38:15.547 --> 00:38:16.007
like there's

00:38:17.583 --> 00:38:19.784
I guess the privacy concern is how it

00:38:19.985 --> 00:38:20.625
catches everybody,

00:38:20.664 --> 00:38:21.965
even if they're not crossing the border.

00:38:22.306 --> 00:38:24.067
Yeah, and kind of famously,

00:38:24.307 --> 00:38:26.028
the border control agency,

00:38:26.168 --> 00:38:27.710
they have authority, what is it,

00:38:27.730 --> 00:38:29.530
like a hundred miles inland or something

00:38:29.570 --> 00:38:29.992
like that?

00:38:30.311 --> 00:38:31.411
People talk about that when they're

00:38:31.431 --> 00:38:32.793
talking about airports all the time,

00:38:32.813 --> 00:38:33.873
but it's true here too.

00:38:33.934 --> 00:38:35.936
It's not just like towns that butt up

00:38:36.016 --> 00:38:37.115
right against the border, right?

00:38:37.135 --> 00:38:40.599
They can potentially install these quite a

00:38:40.659 --> 00:38:42.599
ways into the United States,

00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.762
and it could potentially impact a lot of

00:38:45.802 --> 00:38:46.822
people, right?

00:38:48.358 --> 00:38:48.498
Yeah,

00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:50.900
I think any international pretty much any

00:38:50.980 --> 00:38:51.981
international port,

00:38:52.061 --> 00:38:54.342
whether that's a border, a seaport,

00:38:54.362 --> 00:38:55.623
an airport.

00:38:55.742 --> 00:38:56.043
So, yeah,

00:38:56.083 --> 00:38:57.864
it's honestly there's not a lot of the

00:38:57.943 --> 00:38:58.143
U.S.

00:38:58.164 --> 00:39:00.405
that isn't covered when when you expand to

00:39:00.425 --> 00:39:02.065
that definition,

00:39:02.106 --> 00:39:02.905
because there's a lot of like

00:39:02.965 --> 00:39:04.286
international airports in the middle of

00:39:04.306 --> 00:39:05.568
the country and stuff like that.

00:39:05.608 --> 00:39:06.108
So, yeah,

00:39:06.128 --> 00:39:07.989
I don't know if that legal theory that

00:39:08.108 --> 00:39:10.030
airports are included has been like tested

00:39:10.070 --> 00:39:12.451
in court or anything, but like in theory,

00:39:12.510 --> 00:39:13.552
it's possible.

00:39:13.972 --> 00:39:15.313
But certainly when we're talking about

00:39:15.333 --> 00:39:17.273
like a physical border between countries,

00:39:17.313 --> 00:39:18.353
it's definitely true.

00:39:18.773 --> 00:39:20.014
So it would apply here.

00:39:23.215 --> 00:39:23.536
Yeah.

00:39:23.615 --> 00:39:24.695
I think the other thing that jumped out

00:39:24.715 --> 00:39:25.356
to me is, you know,

00:39:25.516 --> 00:39:27.036
I always want to know that like we

00:39:27.056 --> 00:39:28.557
were just we just spent thirty minutes

00:39:28.597 --> 00:39:29.918
talking about a story of nuance.

00:39:29.938 --> 00:39:30.579
Like there is nuance.

00:39:30.898 --> 00:39:33.199
Like obviously we want to protect our

00:39:33.219 --> 00:39:33.719
borders.

00:39:34.340 --> 00:39:34.659
You know,

00:39:35.141 --> 00:39:36.581
there are cartels and there are people

00:39:36.621 --> 00:39:37.481
crossing illegally.

00:39:38.181 --> 00:39:41.023
And but it's just I don't know, man.

00:39:41.282 --> 00:39:42.503
It's it feels like one of those things

00:39:42.543 --> 00:39:43.083
where it's like a.

00:39:44.608 --> 00:39:46.070
Some military general said something about

00:39:46.110 --> 00:39:47.411
killing a fly with a sledgehammer.

00:39:47.952 --> 00:39:49.614
It feels like this might be overkill,

00:39:49.835 --> 00:39:50.615
I think.

00:39:52.617 --> 00:39:52.818
Yeah,

00:39:52.838 --> 00:39:54.179
Draken said here that most of the US

00:39:54.219 --> 00:39:55.902
population lives within that hundred mile

00:39:55.922 --> 00:39:57.784
buffer zone, which I think is true,

00:39:57.864 --> 00:39:58.123
actually.

00:39:58.224 --> 00:39:59.565
Yeah, I was just fact checking that,

00:39:59.606 --> 00:40:01.668
but I believe it is true.

00:40:01.887 --> 00:40:04.891
Yeah, it's pretty wild.

00:40:04.931 --> 00:40:05.112
Yeah.

00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:07.880
Vonnegut said,

00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:09.463
sounds like the West Bank where there's

00:40:09.762 --> 00:40:11.003
settlements that go right up against

00:40:11.063 --> 00:40:11.724
refugee camps.

00:40:11.744 --> 00:40:12.824
And honestly, yeah,

00:40:12.945 --> 00:40:13.766
it's kind of like that.

00:40:13.865 --> 00:40:15.447
It's at least the El Paso thing I'm

00:40:15.487 --> 00:40:15.768
thinking of.

00:40:15.788 --> 00:40:19.351
It's pretty wild, but... I wonder if I...

00:40:19.431 --> 00:40:20.992
I think I don't live in that zone.

00:40:21.853 --> 00:40:23.114
I think I'm a hundred miles away from

00:40:23.153 --> 00:40:23.494
Canada.

00:40:23.753 --> 00:40:25.496
I guess I don't know for sure.

00:40:25.556 --> 00:40:26.936
I'm pretty sure we live in that zone.

00:40:28.938 --> 00:40:30.139
I know there is a map I found.

00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:31.541
I think it was from the ACLU did

00:40:31.581 --> 00:40:33.402
a map one time of that hundred mile

00:40:33.442 --> 00:40:33.963
zone and it's...

00:40:34.929 --> 00:40:35.210
Yeah.

00:40:35.409 --> 00:40:36.813
It did not include airports or anything.

00:40:36.833 --> 00:40:37.896
It was literally just a hundred miles

00:40:37.916 --> 00:40:38.556
around the country.

00:40:38.597 --> 00:40:38.858
And it's,

00:40:38.938 --> 00:40:40.581
it's pretty shocking how far in it goes.

00:40:44.447 --> 00:40:45.106
now I kind of want to go see

00:40:45.126 --> 00:40:46.407
if I can find it but I digress

00:40:46.427 --> 00:40:49.748
yeah real quick I also want to say

00:40:49.869 --> 00:40:51.108
I know I'm going to try not to

00:40:51.128 --> 00:40:52.130
be political because we've already been

00:40:52.150 --> 00:40:54.010
plenty political enough but I think there

00:40:54.070 --> 00:40:55.271
are a lot of people I mean we

00:40:55.291 --> 00:40:56.431
just covered that with this last story

00:40:56.451 --> 00:40:57.592
where it's like oh it's you know it's

00:40:57.612 --> 00:40:58.871
all about the tools it's all about the

00:40:58.891 --> 00:41:00.713
encryption and they kind of ignore the

00:41:00.733 --> 00:41:02.893
politics but like this was directly funded

00:41:02.954 --> 00:41:05.014
by the one big beautiful bill act so

00:41:05.914 --> 00:41:07.356
it is kind of important to remember that

00:41:07.655 --> 00:41:09.117
there are impacts on this stuff and I

00:41:09.137 --> 00:41:12.097
would encourage you to try to

00:41:13.461 --> 00:41:14.583
to be politically aware,

00:41:14.643 --> 00:41:15.623
at least to the extent that you can

00:41:15.664 --> 00:41:15.903
handle.

00:41:15.963 --> 00:41:17.003
I know it can be really depressing

00:41:17.045 --> 00:41:19.286
sometimes that your mental health does

00:41:19.326 --> 00:41:22.047
matter, but this stuff does have impacts.

00:41:22.367 --> 00:41:22.989
That's all I'm going,

00:41:23.449 --> 00:41:26.931
or all I'm getting at.

00:41:26.971 --> 00:41:29.532
John in the chat said that the Great

00:41:29.552 --> 00:41:30.733
Lakes are considered part of the border.

00:41:30.753 --> 00:41:31.393
Yes, that's true.

00:41:32.014 --> 00:41:33.536
I do think Minneapolis is more than a

00:41:33.556 --> 00:41:34.556
hundred miles away from

00:41:35.592 --> 00:41:36.333
any of the Great Lakes,

00:41:36.632 --> 00:41:37.393
if I remember correctly.

00:41:37.474 --> 00:41:38.934
So I'm pretty sure I am safe,

00:41:38.974 --> 00:41:39.914
but I'd have to find that map.

00:41:40.514 --> 00:41:43.016
But definitely if you're in probably

00:41:43.556 --> 00:41:44.996
what's around the Great Lakes, Wisconsin,

00:41:45.036 --> 00:41:45.797
Michigan.

00:41:46.657 --> 00:41:51.018
Ohio, Indiana, New York.

00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:52.139
The entire Northeast, basically.

00:41:52.478 --> 00:41:55.380
Yeah, because when your state is so small,

00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:56.059
there's probably,

00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:57.320
I don't know how wide

00:41:58.396 --> 00:42:00.177
all of those states are but they might

00:42:00.197 --> 00:42:01.737
not even be two hundred miles wide in

00:42:01.777 --> 00:42:03.338
some cases and so that's gonna cover the

00:42:03.378 --> 00:42:05.059
entire state and some of those are quite

00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:07.800
large because you'd have to like if you're

00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:09.121
in Vermont or something you know you got

00:42:09.141 --> 00:42:10.523
the Canadian border on one side you got

00:42:10.722 --> 00:42:13.704
the ocean on the other which is also

00:42:13.724 --> 00:42:16.346
a border so that hundred miles goes both

00:42:16.385 --> 00:42:21.389
ways so yeah does not surprise me that

00:42:21.429 --> 00:42:24.791
two-thirds of Americans live in that zone

00:42:28.699 --> 00:42:30.521
i'm trying to find this map i found

00:42:30.561 --> 00:42:33.344
an interactive one from arc gis that's

00:42:33.364 --> 00:42:34.846
kind of cool oh here we go i

00:42:34.865 --> 00:42:35.706
think this is the one i was looking

00:42:35.746 --> 00:42:38.768
at from the aclu uh as soon as

00:42:38.789 --> 00:42:41.351
it'll load carries in the chat saying that

00:42:41.431 --> 00:42:43.452
he interviewed nate wessler who had some

00:42:43.492 --> 00:42:45.434
points about that so i guess we can

00:42:45.494 --> 00:42:49.438
uh show his podcast a bit go check

00:42:49.478 --> 00:42:51.219
out that episode i'll have to listen to

00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:52.681
that i have not i have not caught

00:42:52.701 --> 00:42:52.981
that one

00:42:54.088 --> 00:42:55.429
I am still way, way behind.

00:42:55.449 --> 00:42:56.911
I think I'm still in April on my

00:42:56.951 --> 00:43:00.353
podcast.

00:43:00.934 --> 00:43:01.695
So it's fun, though,

00:43:01.715 --> 00:43:04.257
because it's almost like a little low-key

00:43:04.277 --> 00:43:04.956
nostalgia.

00:43:04.978 --> 00:43:06.057
They'll be like, oh,

00:43:06.398 --> 00:43:08.360
this incident happened in the cyber world.

00:43:08.380 --> 00:43:09.961
And I'm just like, oh, I remember that.

00:43:12.224 --> 00:43:14.367
I will say, yeah,

00:43:14.467 --> 00:43:16.807
Vonnegut Rosewater said that they haven't

00:43:16.827 --> 00:43:17.949
seen a border patrol officer.

00:43:18.248 --> 00:43:18.690
Yeah, I mean,

00:43:18.730 --> 00:43:20.451
I don't really see them except at the

00:43:20.510 --> 00:43:20.771
airport.

00:43:20.791 --> 00:43:22.452
There's probably some on the actual border

00:43:22.492 --> 00:43:22.913
of Canada,

00:43:22.932 --> 00:43:26.514
but it's not like driving from Arizona to

00:43:26.554 --> 00:43:26.875
Mexico.

00:43:26.894 --> 00:43:28.516
I've done that once and there were border

00:43:28.536 --> 00:43:29.737
checkpoints and stuff along the way.

00:43:29.757 --> 00:43:32.318
It's definitely not as much of a thing

00:43:32.458 --> 00:43:35.101
up north here between the US and Canada

00:43:35.181 --> 00:43:37.123
as it is by Mexico.

00:43:38.782 --> 00:43:40.023
That's actually what I was about to say.

00:43:40.143 --> 00:43:41.903
I thought you were going to say, yeah,

00:43:41.923 --> 00:43:42.963
you don't really see them that often.

00:43:43.003 --> 00:43:44.784
And I'm like, no, I've, again,

00:43:44.864 --> 00:43:46.346
driven in the south a lot.

00:43:46.405 --> 00:43:48.045
I've been through the border checkpoints.

00:43:48.847 --> 00:43:50.867
Don't see them often here specifically.

00:43:51.688 --> 00:43:52.347
Fair.

00:43:52.387 --> 00:43:54.628
Which I think kind of removes people from

00:43:54.929 --> 00:43:56.289
the whole question a bit because they

00:43:56.329 --> 00:43:58.969
think it's not a big deal.

00:43:59.409 --> 00:44:01.190
It's a huge thing down there.

00:44:01.271 --> 00:44:01.811
It took forever,

00:44:01.831 --> 00:44:02.871
but I finally found a map.

00:44:03.231 --> 00:44:04.052
Let me throw this up real quick.

00:44:06.211 --> 00:44:09.213
yeah that's that's just the coastal border

00:44:09.233 --> 00:44:11.612
or like that's not including airports so i

00:44:11.632 --> 00:44:14.554
mean like every major city los angeles new

00:44:14.594 --> 00:44:17.775
york um those two are almost like ten

00:44:17.815 --> 00:44:20.755
percent of america's uh population right

00:44:20.775 --> 00:44:25.257
there miami houston seattle buffalo

00:44:25.297 --> 00:44:30.197
chicago so fun times yeah

00:44:30.983 --> 00:44:32.385
the entire state of Michigan,

00:44:32.425 --> 00:44:33.565
the entire state of Maine.

00:44:34.266 --> 00:44:35.027
Oh, man, that sucks.

00:44:35.166 --> 00:44:36.467
Almost all of California.

00:44:36.748 --> 00:44:37.708
Man, that sucks.

00:44:39.789 --> 00:44:40.110
Anyways.

00:44:41.472 --> 00:44:41.672
Yeah,

00:44:41.692 --> 00:44:42.771
that's a map you can go look at

00:44:43.152 --> 00:44:49.577
if you do enough digging, I guess.

00:44:50.057 --> 00:44:50.378
I think...

00:44:52.391 --> 00:44:53.431
Let's see here.

00:44:55.333 --> 00:44:57.213
I'm checking the thread.

00:44:57.233 --> 00:44:58.353
We're keeping an eye on that as we

00:44:58.373 --> 00:44:58.512
go.

00:44:58.632 --> 00:44:59.353
All of Florida.

00:44:59.434 --> 00:45:00.514
Yeah.

00:45:00.614 --> 00:45:01.074
Delaware.

00:45:02.094 --> 00:45:02.293
Yeah,

00:45:02.313 --> 00:45:04.655
the forum thread had some comments about

00:45:06.894 --> 00:45:07.775
this news story,

00:45:07.835 --> 00:45:09.175
but I don't know if there's a question.

00:45:09.195 --> 00:45:09.675
Let me see here.

00:45:10.295 --> 00:45:12.456
Yeah, I didn't see a question.

00:45:12.757 --> 00:45:12.896
Yeah,

00:45:12.916 --> 00:45:14.056
just some more comments about Molotov

00:45:14.077 --> 00:45:14.237
Head.

00:45:15.706 --> 00:45:17.427
On that note, though, again,

00:45:17.788 --> 00:45:18.809
we're trying some new stuff.

00:45:18.849 --> 00:45:19.730
And one of the things we're going to

00:45:19.750 --> 00:45:21.512
try is we're going to check in with

00:45:21.532 --> 00:45:26.056
the forum periodically and see what's

00:45:26.097 --> 00:45:26.818
going on there.

00:45:26.898 --> 00:45:30.061
So our forum is always very, very active.

00:45:31.101 --> 00:45:33.063
And this week has been no exception.

00:45:33.224 --> 00:45:34.425
Lots of chatter going on there,

00:45:34.485 --> 00:45:35.867
lots of cool questions and stuff.

00:45:36.567 --> 00:45:38.429
and uh this was a a question that

00:45:38.528 --> 00:45:39.550
i had a lot of thoughts on but

00:45:39.610 --> 00:45:41.010
i i think you did too because uh

00:45:42.032 --> 00:45:43.072
you kind of flagged this one in the

00:45:43.092 --> 00:45:44.914
show notes is there space for another

00:45:44.974 --> 00:45:48.257
private messaging app um do you want to

00:45:48.277 --> 00:45:50.818
uh take that one first yeah let me

00:45:50.838 --> 00:45:53.019
let me pull it up here um sure

00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:55.402
thing this was basically a thread it was

00:45:55.481 --> 00:45:59.746
posted a couple days ago asking about um

00:46:00.429 --> 00:46:03.795
whether another privacy-related private

00:46:03.835 --> 00:46:05.458
messaging app is needed,

00:46:05.498 --> 00:46:08.224
whether this version should build one.

00:46:08.264 --> 00:46:11.590
And there's a lot of comments about here.

00:46:11.610 --> 00:46:12.510
A lot of people saying...

00:46:13.802 --> 00:46:15.864
It's probably not the greatest idea,

00:46:15.925 --> 00:46:16.184
which,

00:46:16.465 --> 00:46:18.626
and I didn't even realize that you posted

00:46:18.646 --> 00:46:19.666
a comment about this,

00:46:19.706 --> 00:46:20.847
so you can go into some of the

00:46:20.867 --> 00:46:21.809
things you were saying after this.

00:46:21.869 --> 00:46:25.552
But it doesn't make a lot of sense,

00:46:25.592 --> 00:46:27.853
especially with things like the network

00:46:27.873 --> 00:46:28.994
effect, for example,

00:46:29.014 --> 00:46:31.695
meaning that everyone has to get on board

00:46:31.715 --> 00:46:33.376
with a messenger for it to be useful.

00:46:33.416 --> 00:46:34.918
It's why we kind of tend to only

00:46:34.978 --> 00:46:35.599
recommend Signal,

00:46:35.619 --> 00:46:37.760
because it's a net positive if everyone is

00:46:37.940 --> 00:46:38.521
on Signal.

00:46:39.007 --> 00:46:41.389
this best all-around messenger instead of

00:46:41.530 --> 00:46:43.231
using ones that might be technically

00:46:43.251 --> 00:46:45.353
better but are less likely for a lot

00:46:45.413 --> 00:46:46.815
of average people to use.

00:46:49.476 --> 00:46:51.197
The main thing I saw at the beginning

00:46:51.217 --> 00:46:51.498
of this

00:46:52.539 --> 00:46:53.400
FormThread,

00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:55.963
this person said that the biggest walls

00:46:56.222 --> 00:46:58.585
are infrastructure cost if it becomes

00:46:58.625 --> 00:47:00.666
popular and getting people to join the

00:47:00.706 --> 00:47:01.065
network.

00:47:01.106 --> 00:47:03.108
And I just mainly wanted to say that

00:47:03.128 --> 00:47:05.510
that second point is like way,

00:47:06.389 --> 00:47:08.291
way bigger of a wall than the first

00:47:08.351 --> 00:47:08.592
point.

00:47:08.652 --> 00:47:12.195
Like massively, massively larger problem.

00:47:12.255 --> 00:47:13.335
And so if you're only solving the first

00:47:13.375 --> 00:47:13.635
problem,

00:47:13.715 --> 00:47:15.077
you're not getting anywhere close to like

00:47:15.137 --> 00:47:18.259
building a viable messenger.

00:47:18.298 --> 00:47:19.119
And I think a lot of people...

00:47:20.342 --> 00:47:22.081
even when presented with perfectly good

00:47:22.501 --> 00:47:27.422
options are not going to switch so yeah

00:47:27.503 --> 00:47:29.143
unfortunately I just cannot encourage

00:47:29.503 --> 00:47:32.403
going down this path I think like I

00:47:32.423 --> 00:47:33.864
think signal is a very good messenger

00:47:33.903 --> 00:47:36.324
obviously I think if you're very concerned

00:47:36.344 --> 00:47:38.244
about centralization I think simplex is

00:47:38.324 --> 00:47:41.385
also a good one to look into and

00:47:41.445 --> 00:47:46.286
between those it's kind of hard to imagine

00:47:46.507 --> 00:47:47.286
why you would use

00:47:48.193 --> 00:47:49.715
other ones there are other ones that i'm

00:47:49.755 --> 00:47:54.161
interested in um personally i really like

00:47:54.201 --> 00:47:55.722
what delta chat is doing but a lot

00:47:55.742 --> 00:47:57.664
of people that's a very controversial one

00:47:57.744 --> 00:47:59.487
on the forum a lot of people really

00:47:59.786 --> 00:48:01.148
really do not like delta chat which is

00:48:01.188 --> 00:48:03.030
why we only fully recommend it for

00:48:03.050 --> 00:48:04.431
everyone right now it's kind of being

00:48:04.913 --> 00:48:06.735
debated but like they're at least doing

00:48:06.775 --> 00:48:08.356
interesting things that i'm following

00:48:09.875 --> 00:48:11.414
There's obviously Matrix and other ones

00:48:11.434 --> 00:48:12.615
that have been around as well.

00:48:12.695 --> 00:48:15.556
I think at present we kind of have

00:48:16.077 --> 00:48:17.277
too many messengers.

00:48:17.556 --> 00:48:20.597
The problem isn't needing more messaging

00:48:20.617 --> 00:48:20.958
software,

00:48:20.978 --> 00:48:23.958
it's getting people to use messengers that

00:48:23.998 --> 00:48:26.260
are more private than Telegram and more

00:48:26.300 --> 00:48:28.101
private than WhatsApp and more private

00:48:28.141 --> 00:48:30.201
than normal SMS and whatever.

00:48:32.262 --> 00:48:33.101
So yeah,

00:48:33.702 --> 00:48:36.623
maybe you can talk a bit about this

00:48:36.682 --> 00:48:38.184
post that you wrote here.

00:48:38.896 --> 00:48:39.356
Yeah,

00:48:40.577 --> 00:48:41.918
the messenger thing is one of my pet

00:48:41.938 --> 00:48:43.119
peeves in the privacy space.

00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:44.561
I feel like, like you said,

00:48:44.601 --> 00:48:45.760
we have too many messengers.

00:48:45.900 --> 00:48:46.862
And for the record, yeah,

00:48:46.942 --> 00:48:47.762
none of them are perfect.

00:48:47.882 --> 00:48:48.523
I will give you that.

00:48:49.083 --> 00:48:51.105
And I think there's even pros and cons.

00:48:51.224 --> 00:48:53.505
Because Signal, for example,

00:48:54.067 --> 00:48:55.266
a lot of people are upset that Signal

00:48:55.306 --> 00:48:55.987
is centralized.

00:48:56.188 --> 00:48:58.148
And that has come back to bite us

00:48:58.168 --> 00:48:58.469
before.

00:48:58.730 --> 00:49:00.530
Signal has, on very rare occasions,

00:49:00.570 --> 00:49:02.052
become overwhelmed and crashed.

00:49:03.012 --> 00:49:05.193
And I think that...

00:49:07.541 --> 00:49:08.222
I think that's valid,

00:49:08.242 --> 00:49:09.923
but Signal also makes the point of, like,

00:49:10.103 --> 00:49:11.445
we're centralized because, you know,

00:49:11.465 --> 00:49:13.427
there's abandoned Matrix servers and

00:49:13.447 --> 00:49:14.829
Mastodon servers that are, like,

00:49:14.869 --> 00:49:17.632
ten versions out of date and stuff like

00:49:17.652 --> 00:49:17.972
that.

00:49:18.032 --> 00:49:19.954
So there's literally pros and cons to

00:49:20.034 --> 00:49:20.536
everything.

00:49:21.217 --> 00:49:21.697
And, um...

00:49:22.697 --> 00:49:23.438
I think my thing,

00:49:23.478 --> 00:49:24.380
and I kind of went off on a

00:49:24.420 --> 00:49:25.300
big tangent here,

00:49:26.101 --> 00:49:28.204
but my thing is I feel like people

00:49:28.284 --> 00:49:28.885
are focusing,

00:49:29.005 --> 00:49:31.307
and I feel like this original poster said

00:49:31.327 --> 00:49:31.909
it really well.

00:49:32.730 --> 00:49:34.130
Basically, he was like,

00:49:34.170 --> 00:49:35.172
I'm a software engineer,

00:49:35.373 --> 00:49:37.434
and I've been diving into messaging apps.

00:49:37.875 --> 00:49:38.635
And to my surprise,

00:49:38.655 --> 00:49:39.677
it's not that difficult to build a

00:49:39.717 --> 00:49:40.257
messaging app.

00:49:40.538 --> 00:49:41.880
So apparently that's why there's twenty

00:49:41.900 --> 00:49:42.420
billion of them.

00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:45.844
But the problem is people are focusing on

00:49:45.903 --> 00:49:47.485
messaging apps too much, in my opinion.

00:49:47.625 --> 00:49:48.425
And I feel like it's one of those

00:49:48.445 --> 00:49:50.907
things that like it's sexy, it's exciting,

00:49:51.048 --> 00:49:52.550
it's not hard to do apparently.

00:49:53.050 --> 00:49:53.630
But, you know,

00:49:53.690 --> 00:49:55.012
there are so many apps and I like

00:49:55.112 --> 00:49:57.313
I've listed so many here where like there

00:49:57.333 --> 00:50:00.317
are no really good like budgeting apps,

00:50:00.356 --> 00:50:01.137
especially for phone.

00:50:01.177 --> 00:50:02.358
I know we've got like a new cash

00:50:02.398 --> 00:50:02.818
or something.

00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:06.041
There's like one calorie counter that

00:50:06.101 --> 00:50:07.364
looks like it's from nineteen ninety.

00:50:08.083 --> 00:50:09.965
Um, as, as a married person,

00:50:10.146 --> 00:50:11.387
I think about things like grocery lists,

00:50:11.407 --> 00:50:11.887
like right now,

00:50:11.947 --> 00:50:14.329
me and my wife have a shared note

00:50:14.489 --> 00:50:15.992
in Bitwarden that we use as a grocery

00:50:16.012 --> 00:50:16.231
list,

00:50:16.532 --> 00:50:18.534
but we don't have an actual dedicated like

00:50:18.574 --> 00:50:20.275
grocery app where you can check things off

00:50:20.376 --> 00:50:21.556
as you go.

00:50:21.777 --> 00:50:23.518
Um, and for the record, like, yeah,

00:50:23.538 --> 00:50:24.679
you can't make it like a one-to-one

00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:26.340
replacement with the grocery stores app,

00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:27.561
because that one will let you do like,

00:50:27.882 --> 00:50:29.264
here's the exact item and here's the row

00:50:29.324 --> 00:50:29.603
it's in.

00:50:29.623 --> 00:50:30.385
And here's a picture of it.

00:50:30.425 --> 00:50:30.744
Like, I,

00:50:30.905 --> 00:50:32.146
I'm not expecting it to get that good,

00:50:32.186 --> 00:50:32.766
but yeah.

00:50:32.947 --> 00:50:33.786
I mentioned, you know,

00:50:33.827 --> 00:50:35.467
where's a consent based location tracker

00:50:35.507 --> 00:50:36.849
so that when the single ninety five pound

00:50:36.889 --> 00:50:37.789
girl goes on a blind date,

00:50:37.809 --> 00:50:38.849
she can let her best friend track her

00:50:38.889 --> 00:50:40.130
location for the next twenty four hours

00:50:40.150 --> 00:50:40.670
for safety,

00:50:41.550 --> 00:50:43.532
which I think somebody did actually post

00:50:43.572 --> 00:50:44.512
something like that recently.

00:50:44.572 --> 00:50:45.612
I meant to bookmark it and keep an

00:50:45.652 --> 00:50:45.974
eye on it.

00:50:46.034 --> 00:50:47.574
But, you know,

00:50:47.594 --> 00:50:49.114
I think later on I mentioned some other

00:50:49.355 --> 00:50:50.056
ideas that

00:50:51.994 --> 00:50:52.894
What else have we got out there?

00:50:52.914 --> 00:50:54.675
I don't know.

00:50:55.056 --> 00:50:55.876
Maybe I deleted them all.

00:50:56.277 --> 00:50:57.918
I reworked some of these messages, but I,

00:50:58.217 --> 00:50:59.579
and another thing,

00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:00.579
cause I went and I asked my wife,

00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:00.820
I'm like,

00:51:00.900 --> 00:51:02.221
I know you have to have opinions on

00:51:02.260 --> 00:51:02.400
this.

00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:04.302
And she's not even that into privacy as

00:51:04.342 --> 00:51:05.842
much as I am, but you know,

00:51:05.922 --> 00:51:06.163
it's like,

00:51:06.202 --> 00:51:07.083
what do you think she's missing?

00:51:07.284 --> 00:51:07.905
And in her opinion,

00:51:07.925 --> 00:51:09.405
it's like the appearance of these apps.

00:51:09.425 --> 00:51:11.126
Like a lot of these apps are very

00:51:11.146 --> 00:51:13.068
bare bones and they look very dated.

00:51:13.168 --> 00:51:14.188
And some people don't mind that.

00:51:14.228 --> 00:51:15.148
Like personally, I don't mind.

00:51:15.250 --> 00:51:16.590
I think old Firefox was fine.

00:51:17.090 --> 00:51:18.711
I definitely realized that the new fire or

00:51:18.751 --> 00:51:20.132
not Firefox Thunderbird,

00:51:20.552 --> 00:51:21.474
the old Thunderbird, like,

00:51:22.134 --> 00:51:23.295
the new one definitely looks better,

00:51:23.315 --> 00:51:24.356
but I didn't mind the old one.

00:51:24.836 --> 00:51:25.978
But then there's some things that look

00:51:26.057 --> 00:51:28.179
really, really dated and really outdated.

00:51:28.360 --> 00:51:29.501
And, you know,

00:51:29.601 --> 00:51:31.202
a lot of people want something that looks

00:51:31.782 --> 00:51:32.663
visually appealing,

00:51:32.682 --> 00:51:34.025
that captures their attention.

00:51:34.744 --> 00:51:36.646
And a lot of things nowadays just don't

00:51:36.686 --> 00:51:37.206
look like that.

00:51:37.246 --> 00:51:38.889
Like they're designed to be lightweight.

00:51:39.048 --> 00:51:39.670
And, you know, like,

00:51:40.349 --> 00:51:41.851
I feel like some people are just so

00:51:41.891 --> 00:51:42.351
hardcore.

00:51:42.371 --> 00:51:43.612
Like if you had one extra line of

00:51:43.652 --> 00:51:44.813
code that doesn't need to be there now,

00:51:44.853 --> 00:51:45.835
all of a sudden it's bloated and it's

00:51:45.855 --> 00:51:46.735
completely unusable,

00:51:46.795 --> 00:51:46.936
but

00:51:47.635 --> 00:51:49.277
But the looks do really matter for some

00:51:49.297 --> 00:51:50.458
people in the user interface.

00:51:50.478 --> 00:51:51.619
And I think just making things,

00:51:52.278 --> 00:51:53.420
bringing them into the twenty first

00:51:53.460 --> 00:51:56.442
century and and making them look good and

00:51:56.461 --> 00:51:57.963
making sure they're updated like some

00:51:58.003 --> 00:52:00.083
things just never really get updates,

00:52:00.103 --> 00:52:00.824
which I mean, granted, you know,

00:52:00.844 --> 00:52:02.125
things for like a note taking app probably

00:52:02.144 --> 00:52:03.405
doesn't need to be updated that often.

00:52:03.445 --> 00:52:03.706
But again,

00:52:03.746 --> 00:52:05.646
if we had one that looked modern and

00:52:05.686 --> 00:52:06.628
stuff like that, so.

00:52:07.900 --> 00:52:09.702
I don't know.

00:52:09.802 --> 00:52:10.882
That's kind of what I would focus on

00:52:10.922 --> 00:52:11.963
is I think we already have too many

00:52:12.003 --> 00:52:13.284
messengers and I would like to see people

00:52:13.344 --> 00:52:16.226
dedicate their attention to other things

00:52:16.286 --> 00:52:18.728
that look good, that work well,

00:52:19.248 --> 00:52:20.489
that have the features we need.

00:52:20.608 --> 00:52:22.510
I think we need more options in those

00:52:22.530 --> 00:52:23.710
spaces personally.

00:52:24.271 --> 00:52:25.150
So yeah,

00:52:25.572 --> 00:52:26.472
I kind of went on a couple of

00:52:26.492 --> 00:52:27.172
posts about that,

00:52:27.373 --> 00:52:29.434
but hopefully I wasn't too rude.

00:52:29.514 --> 00:52:30.494
Yeah, I absolutely agree.

00:52:30.554 --> 00:52:31.635
I think that kind of sums up the

00:52:31.655 --> 00:52:32.096
forum thread.

00:52:32.396 --> 00:52:33.797
I'll take a kooky side look at some

00:52:34.416 --> 00:52:35.358
comments in the chat again.

00:52:36.277 --> 00:52:38.199
Yo, yo, yo, Fred Kong,

00:52:38.958 --> 00:52:39.800
welcome to the stream.

00:52:41.021 --> 00:52:42.583
Eteru said,

00:52:42.722 --> 00:52:44.324
thanks for addressing the comments and

00:52:44.344 --> 00:52:45.045
having the debate.

00:52:46.585 --> 00:52:47.567
Yeah, absolutely.

00:52:50.532 --> 00:52:52.813
We can't spend hours and hours talking

00:52:52.833 --> 00:52:53.853
about mulfad, right?

00:52:53.974 --> 00:52:55.434
But a lot of these discussions we also

00:52:55.494 --> 00:52:57.074
have on the forum pretty often,

00:52:57.114 --> 00:52:59.175
and I would say if people have follow-up

00:52:59.376 --> 00:53:01.657
questions or want to continue posting

00:53:01.697 --> 00:53:03.097
about it, go into the forum,

00:53:03.197 --> 00:53:05.137
discuss.privacyguides.net.

00:53:06.579 --> 00:53:07.778
It's a great way to discuss all of

00:53:07.798 --> 00:53:09.300
this stuff if we can't discuss it all

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:11.360
live here on the show.

00:53:11.501 --> 00:53:12.400
But of course,

00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:14.922
we're happy to answer any questions that

00:53:14.942 --> 00:53:15.322
we get here.

00:53:15.382 --> 00:53:18.204
So yeah, keep sending them in, everybody.

00:53:22.289 --> 00:53:23.391
Yeah.

00:53:23.431 --> 00:53:24.251
Yeah.

00:53:24.331 --> 00:53:25.831
I know Anand said there are good apps

00:53:25.891 --> 00:53:26.211
out there.

00:53:26.291 --> 00:53:27.552
I mean, yeah, I'm sure there are.

00:53:27.773 --> 00:53:29.293
And some of them are hard to find,

00:53:29.373 --> 00:53:30.914
but they're, they're getting better.

00:53:30.934 --> 00:53:32.255
But like one of the examples I use

00:53:32.275 --> 00:53:33.936
that I really like is like NT,

00:53:34.135 --> 00:53:36.436
you know, NT has that really cute.

00:53:36.516 --> 00:53:38.097
It has like the duck logo and it's

00:53:38.117 --> 00:53:39.539
like really user-friendly and it looks

00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:39.838
good.

00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:41.579
And it's got all the features that the

00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:42.260
normal people want,

00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:43.159
but they're all opt in.

00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:44.780
Like you can enable machine learning

00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:45.882
that's done on device.

00:53:46.161 --> 00:53:48.422
So you can search photos and it's,

00:53:48.742 --> 00:53:49.583
you know, if you don't want it,

00:53:49.603 --> 00:53:51.405
you just don't turn it on and you

00:53:51.445 --> 00:53:52.945
can have the memories that, you know,

00:53:53.025 --> 00:53:54.286
on this day, five years ago,

00:53:54.327 --> 00:53:55.228
and you can have the,

00:53:55.847 --> 00:53:57.309
the like all kinds of cool stuff.

00:53:57.329 --> 00:53:58.409
Like I think NT is a really good

00:53:58.449 --> 00:53:59.891
example of what I'm looking for,

00:53:59.931 --> 00:54:01.092
but I don't know.

00:54:01.737 --> 00:54:02.757
I'm sure there are some good apps.

00:54:02.818 --> 00:54:03.797
I'm just saying instead of making a

00:54:03.838 --> 00:54:04.177
Messenger,

00:54:04.217 --> 00:54:06.018
make literally anything else because we

00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:10.699
need more other stuff.

00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:11.659
Yeah, I think if that's all we got,

00:54:11.699 --> 00:54:13.719
we can move on to this next story.

00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:14.440
Yeah,

00:54:14.460 --> 00:54:15.780
do you mind if we do site updates

00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:17.360
now and then go to that story?

00:54:17.420 --> 00:54:18.280
I mean, we're in Avarin.

00:54:18.340 --> 00:54:19.820
Let's get some stuff to talk about.

00:54:21.242 --> 00:54:24.641
Before we talk about yet another border

00:54:24.681 --> 00:54:26.802
story we have, let's...

00:54:28.163 --> 00:54:29.922
go over some quick updates that of what

00:54:29.943 --> 00:54:31.164
we've been working on at privacy guys this

00:54:31.204 --> 00:54:33.744
week we finally were able to publish uh

00:54:34.023 --> 00:54:35.605
a new site update so we have the

00:54:35.625 --> 00:54:38.485
changelog there a lot of things um have

00:54:38.525 --> 00:54:40.965
been updated a lot of these have been

00:54:41.005 --> 00:54:42.405
published on the site for a while but

00:54:42.425 --> 00:54:44.126
they weren't like released to the web

00:54:44.146 --> 00:54:45.967
server so they weren't live and now now

00:54:45.987 --> 00:54:47.086
they are so everything should be up to

00:54:47.106 --> 00:54:50.007
date um we're also working on some stuff

00:54:50.027 --> 00:54:51.108
so I'm working on

00:54:51.789 --> 00:54:54.853
New recommendations for security keys,

00:54:54.992 --> 00:54:55.994
kind of changing that up,

00:54:56.034 --> 00:54:57.876
and also recommending cryptocurrency

00:54:58.117 --> 00:54:58.878
hardware wallets.

00:54:58.998 --> 00:55:01.762
I have literally so many of them on

00:55:02.402 --> 00:55:03.784
my desk now, just...

00:55:05.103 --> 00:55:05.844
messing with them.

00:55:06.945 --> 00:55:09.387
And we're discussing those on the forum.

00:55:09.407 --> 00:55:10.608
So there's a lot of forum threads about

00:55:10.628 --> 00:55:10.748
that.

00:55:10.768 --> 00:55:15.432
If you have opinions about cryptocurrency,

00:55:15.492 --> 00:55:17.135
hardware wallets, or security keys,

00:55:17.434 --> 00:55:18.255
you can go to GitHub.

00:55:18.275 --> 00:55:20.398
There's a pull request open that's a draft

00:55:20.438 --> 00:55:20.898
right now.

00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:22.681
I think it's just titled hardware keys,

00:55:22.721 --> 00:55:23.501
security keys.

00:55:24.121 --> 00:55:24.322
And

00:55:25.222 --> 00:55:26.083
In that pull request,

00:55:26.103 --> 00:55:27.563
there's links to all of the forum threads

00:55:27.583 --> 00:55:28.905
because there's like five different forum

00:55:28.925 --> 00:55:29.985
threads about different things that are

00:55:30.005 --> 00:55:30.485
being added.

00:55:30.545 --> 00:55:33.086
So yeah, if you have opinions,

00:55:33.126 --> 00:55:34.788
definitely let us know, obviously.

00:55:35.887 --> 00:55:37.268
But that is something that will be coming

00:55:37.329 --> 00:55:37.568
soon.

00:55:38.730 --> 00:55:39.469
In other news,

00:55:41.311 --> 00:55:44.251
Fria continues to publish news articles,

00:55:44.291 --> 00:55:46.413
privacyguides.org slash news.

00:55:46.552 --> 00:55:47.353
Nate has also, of course,

00:55:47.393 --> 00:55:49.795
published the weekly data breach roundup.

00:55:49.835 --> 00:55:50.934
So there's all sorts of...

00:55:52.376 --> 00:55:54.436
stuff out there for you to stay up

00:55:54.456 --> 00:55:54.836
to date with.

00:55:54.876 --> 00:55:57.697
We try to post some of the biggest

00:55:57.717 --> 00:55:58.438
stories that we see,

00:55:58.478 --> 00:55:59.858
especially ones that we can't talk about

00:55:59.898 --> 00:56:00.518
here on the show,

00:56:01.219 --> 00:56:02.400
on that page throughout the week.

00:56:02.539 --> 00:56:04.000
So that is a good place to stay

00:56:04.099 --> 00:56:06.481
informed in addition to the news category

00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:08.302
on our forum.

00:56:08.322 --> 00:56:13.063
A couple other things we're discussing.

00:56:13.143 --> 00:56:14.664
I think the only other thing we're

00:56:14.704 --> 00:56:16.224
considering right now is

00:56:17.429 --> 00:56:20.231
a new nested reply format for the form.

00:56:21.132 --> 00:56:22.934
There's a sticky post on the form right

00:56:22.974 --> 00:56:24.496
now called defaulting new post to use

00:56:24.536 --> 00:56:25.137
nested replies.

00:56:25.177 --> 00:56:27.699
It's kind of a Reddit like format for

00:56:27.739 --> 00:56:28.021
posts.

00:56:28.420 --> 00:56:28.922
Right now,

00:56:29.282 --> 00:56:30.702
we're definitely not going to be switching

00:56:30.744 --> 00:56:30.903
to it.

00:56:30.923 --> 00:56:32.686
I'll just tell you because it is kind

00:56:32.746 --> 00:56:32.826
of

00:56:34.005 --> 00:56:34.945
buggy in some ways.

00:56:34.985 --> 00:56:36.186
And there's some improvements that I want

00:56:36.206 --> 00:56:38.126
to make that I've shared with the

00:56:38.166 --> 00:56:40.949
discourse team to see if they decide to

00:56:41.009 --> 00:56:41.989
implement any of them.

00:56:42.949 --> 00:56:45.572
However, I mean, assuming it does work,

00:56:45.612 --> 00:56:47.413
I think that there's probably some reasons

00:56:47.452 --> 00:56:48.974
we might want to use it at least

00:56:48.994 --> 00:56:50.074
for some threads in the future.

00:56:50.134 --> 00:56:51.755
So if you want to check it out,

00:56:51.815 --> 00:56:53.536
see what it will probably look like and

00:56:53.576 --> 00:56:54.356
how it works.

00:56:55.077 --> 00:56:55.697
And see,

00:56:56.797 --> 00:56:58.298
let us know about any feedback you have

00:56:58.338 --> 00:56:59.800
definitely check out that thread because

00:57:00.972 --> 00:57:02.054
In some ways, I like it a lot,

00:57:02.114 --> 00:57:03.554
but I'm a big Reddit user,

00:57:03.594 --> 00:57:04.615
and there's a lot of ways that the

00:57:04.635 --> 00:57:07.259
current form system is also very nice as

00:57:07.318 --> 00:57:07.539
well.

00:57:07.739 --> 00:57:12.443
So a lot to think about there.

00:57:13.324 --> 00:57:15.365
I think that's kind of it in terms

00:57:15.465 --> 00:57:18.128
of site updates and things I'm involved

00:57:18.188 --> 00:57:18.528
with.

00:57:18.969 --> 00:57:19.130
Nate,

00:57:19.150 --> 00:57:20.710
why don't you talk about some of the

00:57:20.771 --> 00:57:22.492
video stuff that you and Jordan have been

00:57:22.532 --> 00:57:22.693
doing?

00:57:24.166 --> 00:57:27.168
yeah unfortunately um jordan got sick this

00:57:27.208 --> 00:57:31.172
week uh so they are recovering and uh

00:57:31.193 --> 00:57:32.554
they were hoping to have the next video

00:57:32.614 --> 00:57:35.036
done by now but uh you know things

00:57:35.076 --> 00:57:36.677
happen health is more important obviously

00:57:36.757 --> 00:57:38.978
so um once they recover they'll be

00:57:39.018 --> 00:57:41.581
wrapping that one up and uh yeah i

00:57:41.601 --> 00:57:43.061
mean i've already got one video filmed

00:57:43.121 --> 00:57:44.702
after that and just reached out to

00:57:44.742 --> 00:57:46.423
somebody today about an interview

00:57:47.244 --> 00:57:48.505
which I am excited about.

00:57:48.806 --> 00:57:51.106
I, uh, I don't think we,

00:57:51.186 --> 00:57:52.688
I don't think anybody has had an interview

00:57:52.748 --> 00:57:53.688
quite like this one.

00:57:54.568 --> 00:57:56.349
Um, maybe Carrie in the, the like,

00:57:56.369 --> 00:57:58.210
like ten years he's been doing firewalls,

00:57:58.251 --> 00:57:58.911
no stop dragons.

00:57:58.971 --> 00:58:00.532
But, um, I,

00:58:00.592 --> 00:58:01.313
I think it's going to be a good

00:58:01.432 --> 00:58:02.932
one and I'm excited to share that with

00:58:02.952 --> 00:58:03.333
you guys.

00:58:03.373 --> 00:58:03.954
But, uh,

00:58:03.974 --> 00:58:06.054
that's kind of all we've got going on

00:58:06.094 --> 00:58:07.195
right now.

00:58:07.215 --> 00:58:08.896
So, um,

00:58:10.103 --> 00:58:10.543
Yeah,

00:58:10.623 --> 00:58:12.105
all this is made possible by our

00:58:12.144 --> 00:58:12.686
supporters.

00:58:12.846 --> 00:58:14.447
So if you want to help support our

00:58:14.467 --> 00:58:14.648
work,

00:58:14.668 --> 00:58:15.969
you can sign up for a membership or

00:58:16.028 --> 00:58:18.150
donate at privacyguides.org slash donate.

00:58:18.552 --> 00:58:20.072
We also still do have the merch shop

00:58:20.092 --> 00:58:20.994
that Jonah mentioned earlier,

00:58:21.034 --> 00:58:22.556
shop.privacyguides.org.

00:58:23.016 --> 00:58:24.538
Privacy Guides is a nonprofit which

00:58:24.597 --> 00:58:26.039
researches and shares privacy-related

00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:27.840
information and facilitates a community on

00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:29.922
our forum and matrix where people can ask

00:58:29.963 --> 00:58:31.284
questions and get advice about staying

00:58:31.304 --> 00:58:32.626
private online and preserving their

00:58:32.666 --> 00:58:33.226
digital identity.

00:58:34.045 --> 00:58:34.525
rights.

00:58:35.824 --> 00:58:37.045
Before we jump into that, actually,

00:58:37.085 --> 00:58:42.286
we did get a couple of questions.

00:58:42.706 --> 00:58:48.166
I don't want to say off topic.

00:58:48.327 --> 00:58:50.367
We got a question in the forum that

00:58:50.407 --> 00:58:52.447
is not related to any of the stories

00:58:52.467 --> 00:58:53.307
we've covered so far.

00:58:53.768 --> 00:58:54.367
Khaled says,

00:58:54.628 --> 00:58:56.188
what are some good ways to spread

00:58:56.248 --> 00:58:57.668
disinformation about yourself?

00:58:57.748 --> 00:58:58.849
I've heard this talked about in the past

00:58:58.869 --> 00:59:00.869
to protect against data brokers and other

00:59:00.909 --> 00:59:01.349
places,

00:59:01.389 --> 00:59:02.690
but don't know what's the best way.

00:59:05.322 --> 00:59:06.583
Do you have any thoughts on that one?

00:59:06.704 --> 00:59:07.925
I use a little bit of disinformation.

00:59:07.965 --> 00:59:11.269
I don't know if you do.

00:59:11.289 --> 00:59:12.152
This is a good question.

00:59:13.697 --> 00:59:17.958
Good ways to spread it is hard because

00:59:18.597 --> 00:59:20.438
I mean like whenever possible it's good to

00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:23.440
use fake information when you can or to

00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:25.300
use like email aliases and stuff like that

00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:26.900
so things can't be tied together and so

00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:29.800
like if data does get released and like

00:59:29.820 --> 00:59:31.442
data breaches or whatever it won't be

00:59:31.862 --> 00:59:34.182
accurate information but like

00:59:34.222 --> 00:59:35.322
intentionally sharing

00:59:36.652 --> 00:59:37.534
False information.

00:59:37.974 --> 00:59:39.074
I have definitely heard people talking

00:59:39.094 --> 00:59:39.375
about this.

00:59:39.414 --> 00:59:40.494
I don't really do this myself,

00:59:40.534 --> 00:59:42.016
so maybe you can talk a bit more

00:59:42.115 --> 00:59:42.436
about it.

00:59:42.476 --> 00:59:44.938
But I've always leaned towards more just

00:59:44.958 --> 00:59:46.818
kind of trying to eliminate as much as

00:59:46.858 --> 00:59:48.139
possible from being out there,

00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:50.440
whether that's through data broker removal

00:59:50.481 --> 00:59:53.922
services or just putting out minimal

00:59:55.063 --> 00:59:56.385
information out there in the first place

00:59:56.445 --> 00:59:58.146
or what have you.

00:59:59.806 --> 01:00:01.588
So I guess the answer is I don't

01:00:01.608 --> 01:00:02.989
really know the best way to go about

01:00:03.028 --> 01:00:03.168
this,

01:00:03.188 --> 01:00:04.829
but it is an interesting thing to think

01:00:04.869 --> 01:00:05.050
about.

01:00:07.112 --> 01:00:07.273
Yeah,

01:00:07.333 --> 01:00:08.554
I don't know if I know the best

01:00:08.614 --> 01:00:09.813
way because I'm kind of with you.

01:00:09.893 --> 01:00:11.675
I focus more on removing the data that's

01:00:11.735 --> 01:00:12.094
out there.

01:00:12.155 --> 01:00:14.456
But I will say that one of the

01:00:14.476 --> 01:00:16.157
things I do is I am really militant

01:00:16.237 --> 01:00:17.376
about using a PO box.

01:00:17.998 --> 01:00:19.858
And that has worked so well that I

01:00:19.898 --> 01:00:21.159
know for a fact that in the past,

01:00:21.219 --> 01:00:23.039
LexisNexis has thought that was my actual

01:00:23.059 --> 01:00:23.420
address,

01:00:24.920 --> 01:00:26.300
which is funny because I'm not even going

01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:28.202
that hard to like, oh,

01:00:28.342 --> 01:00:30.063
I don't put my real name on my

01:00:30.103 --> 01:00:32.164
lease or whatever and somehow still fooled

01:00:32.184 --> 01:00:33.643
the data brokers.

01:00:35.706 --> 01:00:35.925
Yeah.

01:00:35.945 --> 01:00:37.047
Drake in here said best way is to

01:00:37.088 --> 01:00:38.429
lie about your birthday city where you

01:00:38.469 --> 01:00:39.050
live, et cetera.

01:00:39.090 --> 01:00:39.210
Yeah.

01:00:39.271 --> 01:00:40.853
I mean, little things like that.

01:00:40.893 --> 01:00:42.335
Like if I, if I buy anything,

01:00:42.356 --> 01:00:43.617
that's not going to a PO box,

01:00:43.737 --> 01:00:44.798
I try to use like a,

01:00:44.940 --> 01:00:46.782
like a hotel downtown or library or

01:00:46.802 --> 01:00:48.744
something is my mailing address.

01:00:49.005 --> 01:00:49.186
Um,

01:00:50.244 --> 01:00:52.045
LinkedIn, I know I've said this before.

01:00:52.346 --> 01:00:53.585
I, when I got into privacy,

01:00:54.186 --> 01:00:56.146
there was a specific address that kept

01:00:56.166 --> 01:00:57.567
showing up on all these people's search

01:00:57.586 --> 01:00:58.246
sites that was like,

01:00:58.286 --> 01:00:59.206
ten years out of date.

01:00:59.786 --> 01:01:00.927
And I could not figure out where it

01:01:00.947 --> 01:01:02.447
was coming from until I realized I had

01:01:02.467 --> 01:01:04.768
a LinkedIn account I had never deleted and

01:01:04.847 --> 01:01:05.708
never really used.

01:01:06.349 --> 01:01:07.628
And that's where it was coming from.

01:01:07.748 --> 01:01:08.688
So, uh, yeah,

01:01:08.728 --> 01:01:09.949
sign up for LinkedIn and put the wrong

01:01:09.989 --> 01:01:11.769
information on there and it'll get out in

01:01:11.789 --> 01:01:12.469
about ten minutes.

01:01:13.170 --> 01:01:15.110
Um, I'm trying to think what else.

01:01:15.451 --> 01:01:15.550
Uh,

01:01:17.219 --> 01:01:18.619
I've heard that rewards cards,

01:01:18.938 --> 01:01:22.199
like signing up for – it kind of

01:01:22.219 --> 01:01:23.161
depends on what you want to do.

01:01:23.221 --> 01:01:25.161
Like some people – this mostly comes from

01:01:25.181 --> 01:01:25.681
Michael Basil,

01:01:25.721 --> 01:01:27.661
but he's recommended like get magazines

01:01:27.681 --> 01:01:29.242
shipped to your house in the wrong name.

01:01:32.483 --> 01:01:34.364
Some post office people are kind of

01:01:34.403 --> 01:01:36.003
militant about not delivering magazines.

01:01:36.521 --> 01:01:39.182
mail that's not like if they know that

01:01:39.222 --> 01:01:40.463
name doesn't go to that address they won't

01:01:40.483 --> 01:01:41.643
deliver it because they think it's wrong

01:01:41.923 --> 01:01:43.565
um so some people have had that experience

01:01:44.025 --> 01:01:45.766
you could sign up for uh again like

01:01:45.786 --> 01:01:47.326
rewards cards at the grocery store using

01:01:47.346 --> 01:01:49.507
the wrong name but your actual phone

01:01:49.527 --> 01:01:51.148
number like things like that um

01:01:51.987 --> 01:01:52.467
I don't know.

01:01:52.507 --> 01:01:52.648
Yeah.

01:01:52.668 --> 01:01:55.050
I think it's kind of a subtle mix

01:01:55.090 --> 01:01:57.251
of things of just kind of figuring out

01:01:57.431 --> 01:01:58.311
where, you know,

01:01:58.411 --> 01:01:59.972
does this person need this information?

01:02:00.072 --> 01:02:00.713
And if they don't,

01:02:00.773 --> 01:02:02.195
what information can I give them instead?

01:02:02.275 --> 01:02:03.235
Especially if it's required,

01:02:03.275 --> 01:02:04.757
like a lot of the time, you know,

01:02:04.777 --> 01:02:05.956
if you go to buy something online,

01:02:06.318 --> 01:02:09.219
sometimes it won't say, you know,

01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:11.340
it won't like the phone number will be

01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:11.760
optional,

01:02:11.800 --> 01:02:13.983
but then other times it will require a

01:02:14.023 --> 01:02:14.443
phone number.

01:02:14.523 --> 01:02:15.403
And at that point it's like, okay,

01:02:15.423 --> 01:02:16.344
you're never going to call me.

01:02:16.463 --> 01:02:18.726
So what fake phone number can I put

01:02:18.746 --> 01:02:18.985
there?

01:02:19.085 --> 01:02:19.967
You know, things like that,

01:02:20.166 --> 01:02:21.407
I think are kind of how I think

01:02:21.427 --> 01:02:21.708
about it.

01:02:25.391 --> 01:02:26.052
Yeah, I don't know.

01:02:26.391 --> 01:02:27.452
I think that's kind of all I got

01:02:27.472 --> 01:02:27.753
on that one.

01:02:27.952 --> 01:02:29.715
It's more of an art than a science,

01:02:29.775 --> 01:02:30.135
I think,

01:02:30.534 --> 01:02:31.695
and just kind of looking for those

01:02:31.735 --> 01:02:34.199
opportunities.

01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:34.358
Sweet.

01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:35.980
Well, let's move on.

01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:39.302
Why don't you cover this next story also

01:02:39.342 --> 01:02:40.164
from EFF here?

01:02:40.976 --> 01:02:41.556
Yeah.

01:02:41.635 --> 01:02:42.655
So this one is, um,

01:02:43.016 --> 01:02:44.976
a little bit disappointing, unfortunately.

01:02:45.657 --> 01:02:46.717
And, uh,

01:02:46.797 --> 01:02:48.637
it says that the fourth circuit says

01:02:48.677 --> 01:02:50.157
border agents can search your phone by

01:02:50.197 --> 01:02:50.418
hand.

01:02:50.498 --> 01:02:51.898
No suspicion required.

01:02:51.958 --> 01:02:53.018
So, um,

01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:54.139
for those who don't know here in the

01:02:54.239 --> 01:02:55.998
U S um,

01:02:56.039 --> 01:02:58.619
borders or searches of your phone are

01:02:58.679 --> 01:03:00.519
really kind of a legal gray area that

01:03:00.579 --> 01:03:06.121
are, uh, kind of, it's kind of patchwork,

01:03:06.501 --> 01:03:08.001
I guess I would say it's very, um,

01:03:09.898 --> 01:03:11.759
Like at this place, this rule applies,

01:03:11.778 --> 01:03:13.018
but at this place, this rule applies.

01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:13.860
And here you need a warrant,

01:03:13.880 --> 01:03:15.019
but here you don't, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:15.940
And it's very confusing.

01:03:16.561 --> 01:03:19.081
And so basically there was a case called

01:03:19.202 --> 01:03:19.481
U.S.

01:03:19.541 --> 01:03:21.382
versus Belmont Cardozo,

01:03:22.043 --> 01:03:23.864
who unfortunately does not seem like he

01:03:23.884 --> 01:03:24.443
was a cool guy.

01:03:24.884 --> 01:03:26.405
Seems like he had CSAM on his phone,

01:03:26.585 --> 01:03:28.244
according to some stuff later down here.

01:03:28.905 --> 01:03:30.686
But either way,

01:03:31.967 --> 01:03:34.407
they tried to argue as a defense that

01:03:34.407 --> 01:03:37.248
–

01:03:36.550 --> 01:03:37.951
The police should have gotten a warrant to

01:03:37.990 --> 01:03:38.711
look through his phone,

01:03:38.911 --> 01:03:40.492
and this made it up to the circuit

01:03:40.552 --> 01:03:43.835
court, which I forget how circuits work.

01:03:43.894 --> 01:03:45.175
I think a circuit –

01:03:45.606 --> 01:03:47.648
includes several states like it's kind of

01:03:47.668 --> 01:03:48.929
like a regional court i think if i

01:03:48.949 --> 01:03:52.592
remember correctly um okay but yeah so the

01:03:52.713 --> 01:03:54.835
the uh this went up to the fourth

01:03:54.855 --> 01:03:59.038
circuit who decided that border agents are

01:03:59.057 --> 01:04:00.940
allowed to search your phone without a

01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:04.242
warrant or really any reason as long as

01:04:04.282 --> 01:04:06.204
it's a quick manual search so again

01:04:06.224 --> 01:04:07.065
there's there's um

01:04:08.833 --> 01:04:10.414
I don't want to get too bogged down

01:04:10.434 --> 01:04:11.434
in the weeds of context here,

01:04:11.474 --> 01:04:13.175
but basically there's different reasons

01:04:13.215 --> 01:04:14.336
that people can perform searches.

01:04:14.396 --> 01:04:16.018
Cops, I should say, can perform searches.

01:04:16.838 --> 01:04:18.418
There is going and getting a warrant.

01:04:18.838 --> 01:04:21.400
But obviously, if we assume good faith,

01:04:21.681 --> 01:04:23.322
there are still times where it makes sense

01:04:23.342 --> 01:04:24.581
that they can't get a warrant.

01:04:24.842 --> 01:04:26.483
If they're at the airport and somebody's

01:04:26.543 --> 01:04:29.385
acting real shady and their suitcase is

01:04:29.445 --> 01:04:30.244
oversized or whatever,

01:04:30.385 --> 01:04:31.365
they've got some reason.

01:04:31.646 --> 01:04:33.146
Something suspicious is going on here.

01:04:33.686 --> 01:04:34.487
Then, you know,

01:04:34.766 --> 01:04:36.588
if they can prove if this ends up

01:04:36.628 --> 01:04:38.088
going to court or whatever and they can

01:04:38.108 --> 01:04:39.028
prove to the judge like, no,

01:04:39.068 --> 01:04:40.389
here's why I flagged this guy and here's

01:04:40.429 --> 01:04:41.590
why I thought this was suspicious,

01:04:42.030 --> 01:04:43.931
then that evidence is allowed in court.

01:04:44.570 --> 01:04:47.052
And there are certain things,

01:04:47.072 --> 01:04:48.753
according to the EFF, that at the border,

01:04:48.913 --> 01:04:50.132
you don't even need a reason.

01:04:50.413 --> 01:04:51.474
You don't even need to say like this

01:04:51.494 --> 01:04:52.074
is suspicious.

01:04:52.114 --> 01:04:53.635
It's just you can do the search.

01:04:53.815 --> 01:04:54.655
And as an example,

01:04:54.695 --> 01:04:55.614
they gave like your luggage,

01:04:56.155 --> 01:04:57.496
even if there's nothing suspicious,

01:04:57.635 --> 01:04:58.956
even if there's there's no evidence of

01:04:58.976 --> 01:05:00.556
wrongdoing, the cops can be like,

01:05:01.038 --> 01:05:01.958
I'm going to search your luggage.

01:05:02.813 --> 01:05:04.574
which they do even on domestic flights.

01:05:04.753 --> 01:05:06.255
I can tell you that from experience.

01:05:08.195 --> 01:05:11.637
And so basically the court has said cops

01:05:11.677 --> 01:05:13.297
are allowed to do a search for any

01:05:13.338 --> 01:05:14.518
reason, without a warrant,

01:05:14.539 --> 01:05:15.438
without any suspicion,

01:05:15.458 --> 01:05:16.559
without any probable cause,

01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:18.860
as long as it's a quick manual search.

01:05:19.021 --> 01:05:19.900
And where did it go here?

01:05:22.302 --> 01:05:23.222
So they said that it has to be

01:05:23.242 --> 01:05:24.242
a person, not a machine.

01:05:25.603 --> 01:05:27.804
They said that the breadth of the search

01:05:27.844 --> 01:05:29.485
depends on the officer's time and energy.

01:05:30.505 --> 01:05:31.045
They, uh,

01:05:31.085 --> 01:05:32.807
while forensic searches are comprehensive,

01:05:33.347 --> 01:05:33.407
uh,

01:05:33.527 --> 01:05:35.309
manual searches only reveal what a user

01:05:35.349 --> 01:05:36.931
can typically access while forensic

01:05:36.951 --> 01:05:38.391
searches can uncover deleted files,

01:05:38.431 --> 01:05:39.833
cash fragments, metadata, and more.

01:05:40.193 --> 01:05:41.414
And manual searches are subject to an

01:05:41.474 --> 01:05:43.356
officer's fading memory or imperfect notes

01:05:43.376 --> 01:05:44.797
while forensic searches create a permanent

01:05:44.838 --> 01:05:45.077
copy.

01:05:45.117 --> 01:05:47.380
So basically this is not permission for

01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:48.920
them to hook your phone up and run

01:05:49.001 --> 01:05:50.362
celebrate and copy your data.

01:05:50.862 --> 01:05:51.422
It's, you know,

01:05:51.463 --> 01:05:52.923
the cop saying at the border, like,

01:05:52.963 --> 01:05:53.605
let me see your phone,

01:05:53.784 --> 01:05:55.846
unlock your phone and looking through your

01:05:55.865 --> 01:05:56.086
phone.

01:05:56.126 --> 01:05:56.606
Okay.

01:05:56.974 --> 01:05:58.635
And EFF argues,

01:05:58.695 --> 01:06:00.376
and I think most of us watching would

01:06:00.396 --> 01:06:00.655
agree,

01:06:00.675 --> 01:06:03.077
that that's still not really great because

01:06:04.637 --> 01:06:06.998
your phone is so much more sensitive than

01:06:07.059 --> 01:06:07.958
like even your luggage.

01:06:08.018 --> 01:06:08.760
Like, okay, sure,

01:06:08.780 --> 01:06:11.001
your luggage might have some stuff you

01:06:11.021 --> 01:06:12.501
don't necessarily want everybody seeing,

01:06:12.842 --> 01:06:14.161
but your phone has your messages,

01:06:14.181 --> 01:06:16.284
your photos, your banking apps, you know,

01:06:17.184 --> 01:06:20.025
Grindr, like religious apps,

01:06:20.045 --> 01:06:20.746
like whatever it is.

01:06:20.786 --> 01:06:22.907
Like your phone has so much more data

01:06:23.487 --> 01:06:24.527
than your luggage would.

01:06:24.927 --> 01:06:25.829
And it's so much easier,

01:06:25.909 --> 01:06:26.708
at least in my opinion,

01:06:26.789 --> 01:06:28.931
it is so much easier when you're packing

01:06:28.971 --> 01:06:31.293
your luggage to... I mean,

01:06:31.353 --> 01:06:32.112
even as a real example,

01:06:32.594 --> 01:06:33.594
when you're packing your luggage,

01:06:33.614 --> 01:06:36.295
you can choose to leave out things that

01:06:36.315 --> 01:06:37.277
you don't want to put in there,

01:06:37.677 --> 01:06:39.257
but you might still have medication

01:06:39.297 --> 01:06:41.380
reminders on your phone or a doctor's app

01:06:41.420 --> 01:06:42.280
or something like that.

01:06:42.380 --> 01:06:44.762
And it's just... Yeah.

01:06:44.782 --> 01:06:45.922
The EFF was basically like,

01:06:45.963 --> 01:06:47.204
this is really not the same.

01:06:47.403 --> 01:06:49.525
And it's kind of disappointing that

01:06:49.545 --> 01:06:52.327
there's no real actual...

01:06:54.132 --> 01:06:54.534
Anything.

01:06:54.614 --> 01:06:56.215
Again, they don't even need suspicion.

01:06:56.235 --> 01:06:58.539
They can just go ahead and say,

01:06:58.980 --> 01:07:02.403
here's all the –

01:07:02.085 --> 01:07:02.666
Yeah.

01:07:02.786 --> 01:07:04.887
I don't know.

01:07:04.947 --> 01:07:05.827
I'm tripping over my words,

01:07:05.847 --> 01:07:07.068
but I think I've kind of made my

01:07:07.108 --> 01:07:07.530
point there.

01:07:07.869 --> 01:07:10.711
It's really disappointing, unfortunately.

01:07:11.492 --> 01:07:12.514
I will say at the end here,

01:07:12.534 --> 01:07:14.635
they did point out that in this particular

01:07:14.675 --> 01:07:17.438
case, the search only lasted two minutes,

01:07:17.838 --> 01:07:19.239
which means that there's a possibility

01:07:19.318 --> 01:07:20.920
that even if it is a manual search,

01:07:20.981 --> 01:07:21.981
if it goes on longer,

01:07:22.561 --> 01:07:24.664
it could require more time.

01:07:25.344 --> 01:07:26.266
a more in-depth search.

01:07:26.306 --> 01:07:27.688
So like if this guy took the phone

01:07:28.188 --> 01:07:29.911
and just opened photos real quick and saw

01:07:29.931 --> 01:07:31.273
CSAM, then it's like, okay,

01:07:31.313 --> 01:07:31.994
you're under arrest.

01:07:32.353 --> 01:07:33.376
But if he's like sitting there with your

01:07:33.396 --> 01:07:34.157
phone for ten minutes,

01:07:34.197 --> 01:07:35.858
like reading every single message and

01:07:35.898 --> 01:07:37.240
checking your browser history, it's like,

01:07:37.681 --> 01:07:38.202
come on, man.

01:07:38.501 --> 01:07:39.543
You got to be a little more reasonable.

01:07:39.583 --> 01:07:41.606
So I think that's probably the good thing.

01:07:41.746 --> 01:07:43.047
But I don't know.

01:07:44.471 --> 01:07:47.293
I don't understand how a time limit would

01:07:47.333 --> 01:07:48.893
work, but I don't know.

01:07:49.934 --> 01:07:52.157
I'd have to look more into that.

01:07:52.257 --> 01:07:53.918
I wanted to go back to the reason

01:07:55.659 --> 01:07:57.681
that you said Belmont Cardozo was

01:07:58.141 --> 01:07:58.501
arrested,

01:07:58.521 --> 01:08:00.822
because I think it's an important point to

01:08:00.882 --> 01:08:02.324
remember that I think people need to

01:08:02.664 --> 01:08:04.945
realize when we talk about cases like

01:08:04.965 --> 01:08:05.166
this.

01:08:05.246 --> 01:08:05.586
Obviously,

01:08:05.626 --> 01:08:08.108
he was arrested in this case for having

01:08:08.449 --> 01:08:08.989
CSAM,

01:08:09.869 --> 01:08:11.170
which led to his arrest in criminal

01:08:11.231 --> 01:08:11.990
prosecution.

01:08:12.992 --> 01:08:13.512
And I think...

01:08:14.659 --> 01:08:16.942
When we see court cases like this,

01:08:17.042 --> 01:08:19.364
what you have to remember is that the

01:08:20.104 --> 01:08:21.546
things that are happening in this court

01:08:21.587 --> 01:08:24.509
case are almost certainly things that the

01:08:24.548 --> 01:08:26.992
government does all the time.

01:08:27.332 --> 01:08:27.511
Like,

01:08:27.551 --> 01:08:28.693
this isn't the first time that they've

01:08:28.712 --> 01:08:30.034
done it and now they're trying it in

01:08:30.074 --> 01:08:30.435
court.

01:08:30.675 --> 01:08:31.796
This happens and...

01:08:32.810 --> 01:08:34.192
If it gets challenged in court,

01:08:34.231 --> 01:08:36.033
which a lot of people probably won't even

01:08:36.073 --> 01:08:36.752
do in the first place,

01:08:36.773 --> 01:08:38.634
but if it does, you know,

01:08:38.753 --> 01:08:40.555
if it's not as controversial as this,

01:08:41.715 --> 01:08:43.716
where he has CSAM on his phone,

01:08:44.756 --> 01:08:46.016
the US government is just going to drop

01:08:46.056 --> 01:08:48.078
it because they want these court cases to

01:08:48.478 --> 01:08:50.720
create precedent for them to do this sort

01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:51.539
of thing in the future.

01:08:51.560 --> 01:08:52.739
And so they have to find the most

01:08:52.860 --> 01:08:55.641
extreme possible case that they can find

01:08:55.702 --> 01:08:57.842
because they want to use, you know,

01:08:59.269 --> 01:09:01.351
illegitimate reasons, I think,

01:09:01.412 --> 01:09:03.975
to kind of justify this instead of looking

01:09:04.015 --> 01:09:05.275
at the letter of the law as it

01:09:05.315 --> 01:09:08.260
is right now and realizing that this sort

01:09:08.300 --> 01:09:09.820
of search is illegal under the

01:09:09.841 --> 01:09:10.341
Constitution,

01:09:10.381 --> 01:09:11.963
but they want people to overlook that

01:09:12.323 --> 01:09:15.408
because of the nature of the crime in

01:09:15.448 --> 01:09:15.908
this case.

01:09:18.774 --> 01:09:19.836
I just think that's important for people

01:09:19.876 --> 01:09:21.197
to remember because a lot of people do

01:09:21.237 --> 01:09:22.778
get outraged about this and they'll see

01:09:22.818 --> 01:09:24.198
stories like this and they will say like,

01:09:24.219 --> 01:09:24.659
well, yeah,

01:09:24.899 --> 01:09:26.902
we want to catch people like that.

01:09:27.261 --> 01:09:28.643
But how many, you know,

01:09:28.823 --> 01:09:31.024
criminals is the government letting go

01:09:31.064 --> 01:09:32.605
before we can get to a court case

01:09:32.626 --> 01:09:33.025
like this?

01:09:33.186 --> 01:09:33.787
And also,

01:09:34.046 --> 01:09:35.568
how many times has the government done

01:09:35.587 --> 01:09:39.612
this before it reached any court at all

01:09:39.631 --> 01:09:40.813
and before it was challenged?

01:09:40.832 --> 01:09:41.993
Probably quite a bit.

01:09:42.014 --> 01:09:44.515
They're just invading people's privacy

01:09:44.595 --> 01:09:46.037
illegally and often it doesn't

01:09:48.190 --> 01:09:51.634
get policed at all so yeah I think

01:09:52.555 --> 01:09:53.996
I just wanted to remind people that keep

01:09:54.015 --> 01:09:55.277
it in mind when you read stories like

01:09:55.296 --> 01:09:56.778
this because I think people get too caught

01:09:56.818 --> 01:09:58.198
up in what the crime was instead of

01:09:58.238 --> 01:10:01.100
what the government is doing and remember

01:10:01.140 --> 01:10:03.963
that we kind of have a duty to

01:10:04.043 --> 01:10:06.426
police the police officers and make sure

01:10:06.466 --> 01:10:08.367
that this sort of thing isn't happening

01:10:08.426 --> 01:10:13.350
and isn't legal yeah because that's my my

01:10:13.411 --> 01:10:13.992
main point

01:10:15.384 --> 01:10:16.345
I don't know if there's anything else I

01:10:16.365 --> 01:10:16.907
wanted to add.

01:10:17.689 --> 01:10:18.451
You kind of covered a lot.

01:10:20.154 --> 01:10:20.335
Sorry.

01:10:20.375 --> 01:10:20.515
I mean,

01:10:20.534 --> 01:10:21.898
it's kind of a straightforward story,

01:10:22.099 --> 01:10:24.002
but it's I also wanted to include it

01:10:24.023 --> 01:10:24.684
because like I said,

01:10:24.743 --> 01:10:24.885
this

01:10:25.817 --> 01:10:27.497
you know the the rules surrounding phone

01:10:27.537 --> 01:10:28.958
searches it feels like they're changing by

01:10:28.979 --> 01:10:31.600
the day and it's highly contextual and

01:10:31.621 --> 01:10:33.702
dependent on things and so it's the more

01:10:33.742 --> 01:10:36.703
information we can get about how to to

01:10:37.404 --> 01:10:38.845
or like what's going on what the current

01:10:38.886 --> 01:10:41.787
landscape is is helpful and also like both

01:10:41.827 --> 01:10:44.069
this story and the previous story about

01:10:44.109 --> 01:10:45.850
the border we just did it's another thing

01:10:45.909 --> 01:10:47.751
sort of similar to what i was saying

01:10:47.770 --> 01:10:50.073
about the government where like the

01:10:50.092 --> 01:10:51.814
government is doing these things on the

01:10:51.854 --> 01:10:52.954
border specifically

01:10:53.972 --> 01:10:55.595
because they know that people get really

01:10:55.655 --> 01:10:58.301
mad about border-related issues and will

01:10:58.502 --> 01:10:59.703
support things that they otherwise

01:10:59.724 --> 01:11:01.787
wouldn't support in any other context.

01:11:03.623 --> 01:11:05.605
So that's why I think that's why we

01:11:05.645 --> 01:11:08.628
see a lot of very extreme stories like

01:11:08.708 --> 01:11:10.189
ones dealing with CSIM and that's why I

01:11:10.229 --> 01:11:12.552
think we talk about a lot of border

01:11:12.573 --> 01:11:14.574
stories like a disproportionate amount on

01:11:14.614 --> 01:11:17.197
this show because that is it kind of

01:11:17.237 --> 01:11:19.158
seems like in my opinion where the

01:11:19.179 --> 01:11:21.421
government wants to test out a lot of

01:11:21.461 --> 01:11:23.403
these privacy invasive things first before

01:11:23.462 --> 01:11:23.944
we see them

01:11:26.243 --> 01:11:27.783
get that out on the streets everywhere in

01:11:27.823 --> 01:11:28.184
America.

01:11:28.283 --> 01:11:29.184
I think that, I mean,

01:11:29.243 --> 01:11:30.844
really like the stuff we were talking

01:11:30.863 --> 01:11:32.244
about on the border in terms of

01:11:32.284 --> 01:11:33.125
surveillance towers,

01:11:33.545 --> 01:11:35.626
that's the sort of thing that they wanted

01:11:35.666 --> 01:11:36.506
to test on the border.

01:11:36.565 --> 01:11:38.926
And now we see flock cameras on every

01:11:38.987 --> 01:11:40.087
street corner in America.

01:11:40.127 --> 01:11:43.728
It's just, it's kind of a pared down

01:11:44.610 --> 01:11:46.551
cheaper version of all of that

01:11:46.572 --> 01:11:47.693
surveillance stuff but it's more

01:11:47.773 --> 01:11:50.113
ubiquitous and it's not about protecting

01:11:50.134 --> 01:11:53.454
the border it's about surveilling american

01:11:53.475 --> 01:11:55.577
citizens um and everywhere they go and

01:11:55.596 --> 01:11:59.257
what they're doing so yeah you just gotta

01:11:59.358 --> 01:12:00.378
keep all of that in mind it's all

01:12:00.918 --> 01:12:02.619
like this has more impact than just like

01:12:02.659 --> 01:12:03.980
the specific thing that we're looking at

01:12:04.001 --> 01:12:06.962
right now you um you may have heard

01:12:07.002 --> 01:12:08.342
of this but it does not get as

01:12:08.382 --> 01:12:09.844
much attention as his other phrase and

01:12:09.904 --> 01:12:11.925
shitification but uh have you heard of

01:12:11.965 --> 01:12:14.206
corey doctor's shitty tech adoption curve

01:12:15.682 --> 01:12:17.604
No, I have not heard that.

01:12:17.625 --> 01:12:18.905
It's basically what you're arguing.

01:12:19.166 --> 01:12:20.847
Do you remember that that winter soldier

01:12:20.887 --> 01:12:22.510
drone that Baltimore tried to roll out

01:12:22.630 --> 01:12:24.471
like sometime shortly after lockdown,

01:12:24.532 --> 01:12:24.792
I think?

01:12:25.197 --> 01:12:27.037
Yeah, I believe so.

01:12:27.078 --> 01:12:27.158
Yeah.

01:12:27.177 --> 01:12:28.899
For those who maybe missed that story,

01:12:28.979 --> 01:12:30.019
basically Baltimore,

01:12:30.219 --> 01:12:30.859
the city of Baltimore,

01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:31.539
I think it was Baltimore,

01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:34.841
wanted to fly a surveillance drone like

01:12:34.902 --> 01:12:36.743
twenty four seven in the sky that would

01:12:36.762 --> 01:12:38.082
just record all the time.

01:12:38.804 --> 01:12:39.684
And, you know,

01:12:39.743 --> 01:12:41.064
civil rights groups fought back and they

01:12:41.085 --> 01:12:42.145
were like, this is surveillance.

01:12:42.185 --> 01:12:42.845
This is illegal.

01:12:42.886 --> 01:12:43.845
This is a violation of the Fourth

01:12:43.865 --> 01:12:44.666
Amendment.

01:12:44.685 --> 01:12:46.106
And real quick, I thought it was funny.

01:12:46.146 --> 01:12:46.747
They tried to argue.

01:12:46.766 --> 01:12:47.587
It's like, well,

01:12:48.007 --> 01:12:49.288
it's not really twenty four seven

01:12:49.328 --> 01:12:50.708
surveillance because we still have to land

01:12:50.729 --> 01:12:51.829
it for a couple hours a night to

01:12:51.869 --> 01:12:52.069
refill.

01:12:52.329 --> 01:12:54.131
it and stuff so technically it doesn't get

01:12:54.190 --> 01:12:55.511
and thankfully the government was like no

01:12:55.551 --> 01:12:57.152
this is illegal you can't do this so

01:12:57.171 --> 01:12:59.113
they weren't allowed to do it but um

01:12:59.172 --> 01:13:01.554
somebody pointed out that that technology

01:13:01.913 --> 01:13:04.515
began in afghanistan like it was literally

01:13:04.536 --> 01:13:07.037
a modified version of the predator drones

01:13:07.136 --> 01:13:08.738
the same surveillance drone we fly around

01:13:08.757 --> 01:13:11.519
in war zones and uh cory doctorow coined

01:13:11.559 --> 01:13:13.039
this term called the shitty tech adoption

01:13:13.079 --> 01:13:14.979
curve which is exactly what you're saying

01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:16.780
is like they roll it out in these

01:13:16.801 --> 01:13:18.742
situations where unfortunately people

01:13:18.801 --> 01:13:20.342
aren't really paying attention in like

01:13:20.662 --> 01:13:22.845
wars and prisons and places like that

01:13:23.244 --> 01:13:25.546
where it's it's easier for people to

01:13:25.587 --> 01:13:26.127
ignore it.

01:13:26.547 --> 01:13:27.509
And then they kind of use that as

01:13:27.529 --> 01:13:29.350
a testing ground to hone the technology

01:13:29.631 --> 01:13:31.492
before rolling it out to surveil the rest

01:13:31.532 --> 01:13:31.792
of us.

01:13:32.033 --> 01:13:34.694
And unfortunately, ever since I read that,

01:13:34.734 --> 01:13:35.416
I see it everywhere.

01:13:36.015 --> 01:13:37.476
Corey was very, very right about that.

01:13:37.556 --> 01:13:39.019
But yeah,

01:13:39.179 --> 01:13:40.239
that's that's basically what you were

01:13:40.279 --> 01:13:40.680
describing.

01:13:40.699 --> 01:13:42.381
So I know I can never have an

01:13:42.400 --> 01:13:43.002
original thought.

01:13:43.061 --> 01:13:44.262
Corey's had all of this.

01:13:44.422 --> 01:13:45.623
Corey has all of the thoughts.

01:13:46.505 --> 01:13:47.426
He is so smart.

01:13:47.546 --> 01:13:48.546
I mean, yeah.

01:13:50.096 --> 01:13:51.078
None of us can compete with him.

01:13:54.346 --> 01:13:56.652
I think before we dive into the next

01:13:56.671 --> 01:13:56.891
story,

01:13:56.912 --> 01:13:58.475
I think we had another forum post we

01:13:58.496 --> 01:13:59.037
wanted to look at,

01:13:59.056 --> 01:14:00.198
and I think this one actually came from

01:14:00.238 --> 01:14:00.380
you.

01:14:02.836 --> 01:14:06.421
about the FCC comment yeah trying to pull

01:14:06.461 --> 01:14:08.082
it up again yeah I did just want

01:14:08.103 --> 01:14:11.686
to highlight this uh really quick the we

01:14:11.747 --> 01:14:13.548
we I think we did you talk about

01:14:13.569 --> 01:14:14.551
it on the show I don't think I

01:14:14.591 --> 01:14:16.493
was on but I'm sure in one episode

01:14:16.552 --> 01:14:18.475
it came up um I think we gave

01:14:18.494 --> 01:14:19.817
it a brief mention because this does ring

01:14:19.936 --> 01:14:20.198
a bell

01:14:20.618 --> 01:14:24.078
The FCC is proposing a plan to require

01:14:24.139 --> 01:14:26.399
government ID, your physical address,

01:14:26.418 --> 01:14:28.500
and an alternative phone number for every

01:14:28.520 --> 01:14:29.880
phone line in the US.

01:14:29.899 --> 01:14:30.199
So yeah,

01:14:31.260 --> 01:14:32.461
if you sign up for a new phone

01:14:32.501 --> 01:14:32.600
line,

01:14:32.621 --> 01:14:33.480
you're not going to be able to get

01:14:33.501 --> 01:14:35.400
it as anonymously as you currently can.

01:14:35.440 --> 01:14:37.042
We've talked about a number of ways to

01:14:37.082 --> 01:14:40.442
get phone lines anonymously here on the

01:14:40.462 --> 01:14:42.622
channel, and I'm not really sure how...

01:14:43.203 --> 01:14:44.864
any of those methods would really survive

01:14:45.185 --> 01:14:46.546
a rule change like this.

01:14:46.966 --> 01:14:51.311
The deadline to comment on these proposals

01:14:51.431 --> 01:14:52.733
is July twenty-fifth,

01:14:53.213 --> 01:14:55.475
and so if you are an American,

01:14:55.576 --> 01:14:57.297
I think it is really important to submit

01:14:57.358 --> 01:15:01.002
a comment to the FCC about this because

01:15:01.301 --> 01:15:02.904
they will take this into account in these

01:15:02.923 --> 01:15:03.203
hearings,

01:15:03.264 --> 01:15:05.206
especially genuine

01:15:06.027 --> 01:15:08.287
Personal accounts are going to be very

01:15:08.328 --> 01:15:11.228
compelling in terms of pushing back

01:15:11.247 --> 01:15:11.768
against this.

01:15:11.948 --> 01:15:14.069
Don't just submit an AI-generated comment.

01:15:14.488 --> 01:15:16.668
But you can go to this form post

01:15:17.329 --> 01:15:19.050
that I've stickied it on the form,

01:15:19.090 --> 01:15:20.010
so you should be able to find it

01:15:20.029 --> 01:15:21.331
because I have a link to where you

01:15:21.371 --> 01:15:22.631
can file an express comment.

01:15:22.770 --> 01:15:24.911
And the two docket numbers that you're

01:15:24.930 --> 01:15:26.332
going to enter in the top field of

01:15:26.372 --> 01:15:26.511
that,

01:15:26.532 --> 01:15:27.152
you're going to enter

01:15:32.773 --> 01:15:34.274
And just submit a comment for both of

01:15:34.314 --> 01:15:34.474
those.

01:15:34.493 --> 01:15:35.795
You can do both of them on the

01:15:35.835 --> 01:15:38.636
same form, so it's very easy to do.

01:15:39.337 --> 01:15:44.260
And I think it's very important that this

01:15:44.300 --> 01:15:45.760
sort of thing doesn't get passed,

01:15:45.779 --> 01:15:47.921
so hopefully you can speak out about it.

01:15:48.122 --> 01:15:49.983
There are some comments in this

01:15:50.935 --> 01:15:52.796
forum thread that we could address here.

01:15:53.256 --> 01:15:55.158
Expert-FortyEightSeventy asked if KYC

01:15:55.177 --> 01:15:56.899
would help with spam.

01:15:57.840 --> 01:15:58.980
And the answer is no.

01:15:59.180 --> 01:16:00.461
None of this is going to help with

01:16:00.501 --> 01:16:01.481
spam in any way.

01:16:02.863 --> 01:16:05.404
Because this isn't the reason that spam

01:16:05.663 --> 01:16:06.465
calls exist.

01:16:06.564 --> 01:16:11.868
Spam calls currently mainly exist due to

01:16:11.927 --> 01:16:14.269
technical failings of these telecom

01:16:14.288 --> 01:16:16.470
providers and there are systems in place

01:16:16.671 --> 01:16:18.551
or they could make systems that would

01:16:18.591 --> 01:16:19.032
prevent

01:16:20.324 --> 01:16:21.786
Pretty much all of this stuff from

01:16:21.845 --> 01:16:22.167
happening,

01:16:22.186 --> 01:16:25.189
they just choose not to do it for

01:16:25.229 --> 01:16:26.251
a variety of reasons.

01:16:26.711 --> 01:16:28.311
But there are different authentication

01:16:28.332 --> 01:16:28.872
protocols,

01:16:28.912 --> 01:16:30.434
and there are technical ways that they

01:16:30.453 --> 01:16:32.435
could just prevent cell phone number

01:16:32.456 --> 01:16:33.738
spoofing, which would be a huge...

01:16:34.596 --> 01:16:37.838
improvement um that that they're not doing

01:16:38.038 --> 01:16:40.581
and it's not clear to me uh how

01:16:40.600 --> 01:16:42.943
kyc is going to help this because all

01:16:42.983 --> 01:16:45.743
of those exploits and flaws in the current

01:16:45.765 --> 01:16:47.386
telecom system will still exist for

01:16:47.445 --> 01:16:49.686
spammers to take advantage of however this

01:16:49.726 --> 01:16:51.748
is going to make it much much harder

01:16:51.828 --> 01:16:54.729
for regular people to get phone lines

01:16:54.751 --> 01:16:56.412
which are pretty much mandatory given how

01:16:56.431 --> 01:16:58.132
many services require a phone number

01:16:58.172 --> 01:17:02.256
nowadays so yeah this is this is

01:17:02.296 --> 01:17:04.237
definitely not the solution um

01:17:06.300 --> 01:17:08.280
All of the expert opinions that I've seen

01:17:08.320 --> 01:17:09.521
on this and all of the people in

01:17:09.561 --> 01:17:11.582
the telecom space that I've talked to have

01:17:11.662 --> 01:17:14.123
no idea how this is going to improve

01:17:14.144 --> 01:17:15.284
the spam situation either,

01:17:15.625 --> 01:17:18.065
because it's not.

01:17:18.506 --> 01:17:21.868
But yeah.

01:17:22.969 --> 01:17:24.368
And also, as Kerry just pointed out,

01:17:24.670 --> 01:17:26.029
it doesn't prevent offshore phone

01:17:26.050 --> 01:17:26.250
accounts.

01:17:26.270 --> 01:17:26.451
Yeah.

01:17:26.871 --> 01:17:28.652
Like, this really...

01:17:29.795 --> 01:17:31.515
I can't even imagine how they are

01:17:31.534 --> 01:17:33.376
justifying that this could solve the

01:17:33.395 --> 01:17:35.076
problem that they're trying to address

01:17:35.475 --> 01:17:40.676
because there are so many ways for all

01:17:40.716 --> 01:17:43.457
of that stuff to continue while this

01:17:43.497 --> 01:17:47.418
policy is in place to really take away

01:17:47.458 --> 01:17:49.779
privacy from Americans.

01:17:50.079 --> 01:17:54.761
So just wanted to put that out there.

01:17:54.780 --> 01:17:55.640
Check out the forum thread.

01:17:57.914 --> 01:17:58.615
I'll leave it in the...

01:17:58.756 --> 01:17:59.796
I can leave it in the chat here

01:18:00.478 --> 01:18:01.479
if people want to check it out.

01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:03.921
But... It's also in the newsletter.

01:18:05.184 --> 01:18:06.204
Oh, it'll be in the newsletter.

01:18:06.244 --> 01:18:06.805
It's on the site.

01:18:06.905 --> 01:18:08.027
You can go to the forum,

01:18:08.087 --> 01:18:09.288
discuss.privacyguys.net.

01:18:09.328 --> 01:18:09.989
It'll be at the top.

01:18:10.149 --> 01:18:13.413
So I think that'll be... Yeah.

01:18:13.434 --> 01:18:14.354
Consider it because...

01:18:15.426 --> 01:18:17.229
Public opposition and especially like

01:18:17.248 --> 01:18:18.911
grassroots opposition does actually have

01:18:18.930 --> 01:18:21.774
an impact on these political decisions.

01:18:21.835 --> 01:18:23.256
We've talked about that before,

01:18:23.516 --> 01:18:25.498
like in the EU with chat control and

01:18:25.519 --> 01:18:26.801
like pushing back against that.

01:18:26.841 --> 01:18:29.844
And it's the same here where we got

01:18:29.863 --> 01:18:31.145
to nip this in the bud before it

01:18:31.166 --> 01:18:32.127
happens, because if it happens,

01:18:32.146 --> 01:18:34.329
it's going to be so hard to undo

01:18:34.369 --> 01:18:34.449
it.

01:18:36.738 --> 01:18:38.520
Yeah, I haven't clicked on this link,

01:18:38.541 --> 01:18:40.203
but I said the same thing in the

01:18:40.222 --> 01:18:42.145
forum that, you know,

01:18:42.806 --> 01:18:44.127
that Kerry kind of hinted at, which is,

01:18:44.148 --> 01:18:44.328
you know,

01:18:44.349 --> 01:18:45.850
a lot of spam callers come from outside

01:18:45.871 --> 01:18:46.230
the US.

01:18:46.251 --> 01:18:47.693
They spoof US phone numbers.

01:18:47.733 --> 01:18:50.697
And somebody replied to me and said that

01:18:51.037 --> 01:18:52.380
they quoted this link here.

01:18:52.739 --> 01:18:54.322
The commission further proposes to require

01:18:54.362 --> 01:18:55.722
voice service providers to implement

01:18:55.762 --> 01:18:57.204
measures to ensure that consumers know

01:18:57.225 --> 01:18:58.886
which calls originate from outside the US

01:18:58.905 --> 01:19:00.427
and to prohibit spoofing of US telephone

01:19:00.448 --> 01:19:02.069
numbers for calls that originate from

01:19:02.128 --> 01:19:02.850
outside the US.

01:19:03.850 --> 01:19:05.152
Again, I didn't click the full link,

01:19:05.192 --> 01:19:06.753
but I'm assuming it doesn't say how

01:19:06.774 --> 01:19:07.675
they're supposed to do that.

01:19:08.435 --> 01:19:08.775
And to me,

01:19:08.815 --> 01:19:09.896
this strikes me as one of those things

01:19:09.917 --> 01:19:10.237
that it's like,

01:19:10.277 --> 01:19:11.377
do you think they don't want to do

01:19:11.398 --> 01:19:11.618
that?

01:19:12.158 --> 01:19:12.418
Like,

01:19:13.260 --> 01:19:14.480
do you think they're not already trying?

01:19:14.541 --> 01:19:15.582
Like everyone hates spam.

01:19:16.425 --> 01:19:18.907
There's – they already don't want these

01:19:18.926 --> 01:19:19.587
spam calls.

01:19:19.646 --> 01:19:20.728
Like, I don't know.

01:19:20.787 --> 01:19:21.729
It sounds to me like one of those

01:19:21.769 --> 01:19:23.050
things where it's just the politicians

01:19:23.069 --> 01:19:24.390
that don't understand how to check their

01:19:24.451 --> 01:19:26.452
email on their iPhone are telling us just

01:19:26.532 --> 01:19:28.073
nerd harder and find a solution.

01:19:28.632 --> 01:19:29.854
And it's like this just – yeah,

01:19:31.114 --> 01:19:32.336
I don't see how this is supposed to

01:19:32.416 --> 01:19:34.016
actually solve anything other than just

01:19:34.056 --> 01:19:34.917
creating a bunch of, like,

01:19:34.997 --> 01:19:37.579
legal liability that's just going to make

01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:38.260
everything worse.

01:19:38.300 --> 01:19:39.680
And –

01:19:39.820 --> 01:19:41.020
I think the first time we covered this,

01:19:41.060 --> 01:19:42.322
we mentioned this is going to kill

01:19:42.582 --> 01:19:44.282
whistleblowers, journalists,

01:19:44.341 --> 01:19:45.681
which I'm sure the current political

01:19:45.721 --> 01:19:46.802
landscape would be thrilled about all

01:19:46.842 --> 01:19:49.042
that, domestic abuse survivors.

01:19:49.422 --> 01:19:50.403
All these kind of people that have

01:19:50.463 --> 01:19:52.184
perfectly legitimate cases for needing a

01:19:52.224 --> 01:19:54.724
burner phone are just up a creek now,

01:19:55.444 --> 01:19:56.765
and we're not actually going to fix

01:19:56.805 --> 01:19:57.125
everything.

01:19:57.145 --> 01:19:58.145
We're just going to make everything worse

01:19:58.164 --> 01:19:58.625
for everybody.

01:19:58.725 --> 01:19:59.886
So yeah,

01:19:59.966 --> 01:20:00.905
I need to leave a comment on this

01:20:00.926 --> 01:20:01.065
too.

01:20:03.422 --> 01:20:04.564
Before we move on to the next story,

01:20:04.583 --> 01:20:05.823
I want to grab another question in the

01:20:05.863 --> 01:20:06.283
chat here.

01:20:06.724 --> 01:20:07.465
VPN question.

01:20:07.524 --> 01:20:09.926
If I change my VPN server regularly a

01:20:09.945 --> 01:20:11.126
few times a day or more often,

01:20:11.386 --> 01:20:13.067
does it strengthen my privacy or not

01:20:13.087 --> 01:20:13.787
significantly?

01:20:14.266 --> 01:20:14.506
Thanks.

01:20:16.960 --> 01:20:19.140
This is really going to depend on who

01:20:19.180 --> 01:20:20.502
you want privacy from,

01:20:20.542 --> 01:20:22.302
but in general I wouldn't recommend doing

01:20:22.342 --> 01:20:22.583
this.

01:20:22.984 --> 01:20:24.765
It could possibly make sense to do this

01:20:24.805 --> 01:20:27.867
if you're visiting different websites and

01:20:27.907 --> 01:20:31.029
you're using one VPN on one website and

01:20:31.088 --> 01:20:32.470
a different VPN with a different one,

01:20:33.250 --> 01:20:35.971
but if you're just rotating VPNs

01:20:36.412 --> 01:20:40.194
constantly and using the same sites,

01:20:40.854 --> 01:20:42.296
this is probably going to have little

01:20:42.395 --> 01:20:44.176
impact and this

01:20:45.730 --> 01:20:48.573
will make you less private on your local

01:20:49.092 --> 01:20:50.073
network, for example,

01:20:51.956 --> 01:20:53.936
because it's just more fingerprintable.

01:20:53.976 --> 01:20:56.238
But when you're doing things that are kind

01:20:56.279 --> 01:20:57.118
of out of the norm,

01:20:57.819 --> 01:20:59.621
especially manual things and things that

01:20:59.661 --> 01:21:00.782
aren't built-in features,

01:21:03.264 --> 01:21:04.824
you're pretty much just standing out from

01:21:04.904 --> 01:21:07.386
other users who are not doing that.

01:21:07.487 --> 01:21:10.189
And so typically it is best for privacy

01:21:12.125 --> 01:21:13.145
As a general rule,

01:21:13.206 --> 01:21:15.386
to not take things into your own hands

01:21:15.606 --> 01:21:18.307
and implement additional security measures

01:21:18.488 --> 01:21:21.350
if it hasn't been fully proven that this

01:21:21.369 --> 01:21:22.871
is going to improve your privacy in some

01:21:22.911 --> 01:21:23.091
way.

01:21:26.092 --> 01:21:27.934
I think that's just a good philosophy in

01:21:27.993 --> 01:21:29.814
general, which is the less you can do,

01:21:30.175 --> 01:21:30.635
the better.

01:21:31.074 --> 01:21:34.016
And this sounds like a lot of extra

01:21:34.056 --> 01:21:36.858
work for no proven gains.

01:21:37.037 --> 01:21:39.340
So yeah, I wouldn't...

01:21:40.444 --> 01:21:42.145
I wouldn't do this probably,

01:21:42.185 --> 01:21:46.506
but I think that answers that.

01:21:46.605 --> 01:21:47.966
Yeah, I just want to add on that,

01:21:48.067 --> 01:21:48.606
in general,

01:21:48.646 --> 01:21:51.547
I think VPNs are really over-exaggerated

01:21:51.568 --> 01:21:52.229
for privacy.

01:21:52.868 --> 01:21:54.128
I think somebody commented this during the

01:21:54.149 --> 01:21:54.989
Mulvad story too.

01:21:55.010 --> 01:21:56.529
And they have a place.

01:21:56.630 --> 01:21:57.751
I use a VPN.

01:21:58.511 --> 01:21:59.551
I'm sure Jonah does.

01:21:59.771 --> 01:22:01.231
Most people do use VPNs because they're

01:22:01.252 --> 01:22:01.712
helpful.

01:22:02.432 --> 01:22:05.234
But VPNs really only do two things.

01:22:06.274 --> 01:22:07.814
They change your IP address.

01:22:08.814 --> 01:22:10.716
and aside from okay three things because

01:22:10.735 --> 01:22:11.617
they also do the whole encrypted

01:22:11.676 --> 01:22:14.537
connection thing if you use i mean most

01:22:14.597 --> 01:22:16.998
modern vpns nowadays come with dns based

01:22:17.238 --> 01:22:19.140
blockers that block ads and trackers and

01:22:19.180 --> 01:22:22.122
malware but um you know the dns based

01:22:22.162 --> 01:22:23.381
things they're only going to block known

01:22:23.421 --> 01:22:24.462
things right and they're only going to

01:22:24.483 --> 01:22:26.823
block dns base so like if you're if

01:22:26.844 --> 01:22:28.765
your ads and trackers are being served

01:22:28.805 --> 01:22:30.706
from the same place as the website itself

01:22:30.746 --> 01:22:32.247
they can't block that without breaking the

01:22:32.266 --> 01:22:32.667
website

01:22:33.247 --> 01:22:34.270
if it's a, you know,

01:22:34.390 --> 01:22:36.756
a new web address, a new domain,

01:22:36.777 --> 01:22:38.039
they can't block that cause they don't

01:22:38.060 --> 01:22:38.822
know about it yet.

01:22:39.523 --> 01:22:39.984
And, um,

01:22:40.716 --> 01:22:42.037
As far as the IP address thing,

01:22:42.179 --> 01:22:43.460
I'm firmly convinced we don't actually

01:22:43.500 --> 01:22:45.962
know how common fingerprinting is because

01:22:46.603 --> 01:22:48.805
companies don't really rush to tell the

01:22:48.824 --> 01:22:49.166
world.

01:22:49.546 --> 01:22:50.908
And those who do are marketing companies,

01:22:50.927 --> 01:22:52.189
so they're probably over-exaggerating it

01:22:52.229 --> 01:22:52.529
anyways.

01:22:52.930 --> 01:22:54.671
But I'm willing to bet that fingerprinting

01:22:54.711 --> 01:22:56.153
is extremely common nowadays.

01:22:56.573 --> 01:22:57.814
And in the context of fingerprinting,

01:22:57.835 --> 01:22:59.576
your IP address is such a small part

01:22:59.615 --> 01:23:00.677
of your fingerprint because a lot of

01:23:00.738 --> 01:23:02.479
residential places rotate IP addresses

01:23:02.519 --> 01:23:02.859
anyways.

01:23:03.420 --> 01:23:06.042
And if you're going from your phone to

01:23:06.061 --> 01:23:07.802
your computer to the library to the coffee

01:23:07.823 --> 01:23:08.523
shop to work,

01:23:09.583 --> 01:23:10.965
IP address is just not a very efficient

01:23:10.984 --> 01:23:11.704
way to track people.

01:23:11.824 --> 01:23:14.426
So VPNs, I'm not anti-VPN,

01:23:14.506 --> 01:23:17.328
but I don't think in the context of

01:23:17.368 --> 01:23:18.989
privacy, like I'm with Jonah,

01:23:19.029 --> 01:23:21.871
I think rotating regularly would just be

01:23:22.872 --> 01:23:24.953
so much overkill for so little gain.

01:23:25.353 --> 01:23:26.734
And I think you'd be better off just

01:23:26.753 --> 01:23:27.354
focusing on

01:23:28.345 --> 01:23:30.186
using a good privacy-respecting browser,

01:23:30.306 --> 01:23:32.588
using things like uBlock Origin that are

01:23:32.609 --> 01:23:34.949
not blocking purely based off block lists,

01:23:35.890 --> 01:23:36.511
things like that,

01:23:36.751 --> 01:23:37.971
I think are going to get you way,

01:23:38.011 --> 01:23:40.832
way more privacy than rotating VPNs.

01:23:44.154 --> 01:23:44.555
All righty.

01:23:45.676 --> 01:23:46.336
On that note,

01:23:46.716 --> 01:23:47.676
I think we're going to move on to

01:23:47.697 --> 01:23:50.759
our next story about OpenAI.

01:23:50.779 --> 01:23:51.840
This is kind of a big story this

01:23:51.859 --> 01:23:52.079
week,

01:23:52.100 --> 01:23:54.060
the whole OpenAI and Hugging Face debacle.

01:23:55.146 --> 01:23:57.408
Yeah, this is reported by Wired.

01:23:57.969 --> 01:24:00.850
OpenAI models escaped containment and

01:24:00.949 --> 01:24:02.150
hacked Hugging Face.

01:24:03.011 --> 01:24:05.212
Describing the incident as unprecedented,

01:24:05.332 --> 01:24:08.454
OpenAI said its AI models broke out of

01:24:08.475 --> 01:24:10.235
a sealed testing environment last week and

01:24:10.296 --> 01:24:11.837
hacked into Hugging Face's production

01:24:11.856 --> 01:24:13.818
system to steal the answers to a test

01:24:13.877 --> 01:24:14.877
they were being graded on.

01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:15.998
The models,

01:24:16.158 --> 01:24:18.820
the publicly available GPT-Five.

01:24:18.881 --> 01:24:21.202
Six sole and an unreleased reported me

01:24:21.582 --> 01:24:23.023
reportedly more capable one,

01:24:23.423 --> 01:24:25.185
were being evaluated on their offensive

01:24:25.244 --> 01:24:26.865
hacking skills with the safeguards that

01:24:26.945 --> 01:24:29.488
normally block high risk cyber activity

01:24:29.568 --> 01:24:30.429
switched off.

01:24:32.262 --> 01:24:32.923
They go on to say,

01:24:32.984 --> 01:24:35.045
according to OpenAI and Hugging Face,

01:24:35.104 --> 01:24:36.744
the models escaped through a package

01:24:36.905 --> 01:24:39.306
registry cache proxy software that allows

01:24:39.346 --> 01:24:41.448
developers to install outside code without

01:24:41.507 --> 01:24:42.488
connecting to the internet.

01:24:42.768 --> 01:24:44.628
The proxy was the only component in

01:24:44.729 --> 01:24:47.030
OpenAI's isolated testing environment

01:24:47.070 --> 01:24:48.671
permitted to reach the outside world.

01:24:49.192 --> 01:24:49.971
In normal use,

01:24:50.091 --> 01:24:52.592
that reach extends only to public code

01:24:52.632 --> 01:24:53.373
repositories.

01:24:54.375 --> 01:24:56.436
Rather than stay contained in the sandbox,

01:24:56.497 --> 01:24:58.278
the models exploited a zero-day

01:24:58.298 --> 01:25:00.640
vulnerability to gain access to the open

01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:02.682
internet as they hyper-focused on finding

01:25:02.722 --> 01:25:04.845
a solution for the AI cybersecurity

01:25:04.904 --> 01:25:06.587
benchmark known as Exploit Gym.

01:25:07.207 --> 01:25:09.088
Such experiments involve prompting that

01:25:09.189 --> 01:25:10.930
pressures the models to find solutions,

01:25:10.990 --> 01:25:13.314
essentially egging them on.

01:25:16.512 --> 01:25:18.474
They say that the flaw that the models

01:25:18.554 --> 01:25:20.694
exploited was previously unknown,

01:25:21.175 --> 01:25:23.095
as would be implied because it's a

01:25:23.176 --> 01:25:24.315
zero-day exploit,

01:25:24.395 --> 01:25:26.016
but flaws in this kind of software are

01:25:26.077 --> 01:25:26.976
not unusual.

01:25:27.016 --> 01:25:28.297
Companies have been patching serious

01:25:28.337 --> 01:25:30.359
vulnerabilities in artifact repositories

01:25:30.798 --> 01:25:31.958
for a decade.

01:25:32.279 --> 01:25:33.979
A bug disclosed in twenty twenty four let

01:25:34.020 --> 01:25:35.881
anyone who could reach the server ask for

01:25:35.900 --> 01:25:37.400
a file by URL and get it,

01:25:38.181 --> 01:25:40.243
which would include configuration files,

01:25:40.283 --> 01:25:40.603
passwords,

01:25:40.703 --> 01:25:42.023
access tokens without logging in.

01:25:42.143 --> 01:25:44.423
Others have let attackers take control of

01:25:44.444 --> 01:25:45.944
the server itself.

01:25:47.552 --> 01:25:50.835
So a lot to unpack there.

01:25:52.095 --> 01:25:54.277
I kind of take a little issue with

01:25:54.877 --> 01:25:57.238
a lot of these stories about AI and

01:25:57.679 --> 01:25:59.600
security and like their capabilities,

01:25:59.640 --> 01:26:00.720
because honestly,

01:26:01.400 --> 01:26:05.123
like when Anthropix Claude Fable was

01:26:05.243 --> 01:26:06.625
banned by the US government,

01:26:06.664 --> 01:26:09.225
we talked about that a few weeks ago

01:26:09.246 --> 01:26:09.945
when it happened.

01:26:10.546 --> 01:26:12.328
And I kind of had a similar opinion

01:26:12.368 --> 01:26:13.448
then, which is that like,

01:26:14.628 --> 01:26:17.952
all these stories do is really boost the

01:26:18.332 --> 01:26:21.413
impression that like these models are

01:26:21.474 --> 01:26:23.074
extremely capable and they're totally

01:26:23.114 --> 01:26:25.016
worth paying a lot of money for because

01:26:25.056 --> 01:26:27.057
look what look what they can do right

01:26:27.679 --> 01:26:32.841
um but at the same time uh it

01:26:32.902 --> 01:26:34.283
is it is true that they're finding like

01:26:34.384 --> 01:26:35.604
zero-day vulnerabilities and they're

01:26:35.644 --> 01:26:36.185
discovering

01:26:37.627 --> 01:26:39.510
new vulnerabilities that didn't previously

01:26:39.569 --> 01:26:39.890
exist,

01:26:39.970 --> 01:26:43.091
and there obviously are cybersecurity

01:26:44.153 --> 01:26:45.134
implications there.

01:26:49.117 --> 01:26:50.377
Yeah, Nate,

01:26:51.878 --> 01:26:52.760
I could talk a bit more about this,

01:26:52.779 --> 01:26:53.581
but do you have any thoughts,

01:26:53.640 --> 01:26:54.742
or was there anything you saw in the

01:26:54.782 --> 01:26:57.684
article that I didn't talk about?

01:26:59.899 --> 01:27:00.980
Not too many.

01:27:01.661 --> 01:27:03.762
I think your take is definitely accurate

01:27:03.823 --> 01:27:05.503
that this is kind of a little bit

01:27:05.583 --> 01:27:06.724
marketing for these companies.

01:27:06.743 --> 01:27:07.284
Like, oh,

01:27:07.345 --> 01:27:09.605
look how super powerful our AI model is.

01:27:10.365 --> 01:27:12.067
But it does also kind of point out

01:27:12.146 --> 01:27:12.387
that...

01:27:14.335 --> 01:27:15.135
I think it's one of those,

01:27:15.215 --> 01:27:16.636
it's kind of like when Kerry guessed it

01:27:16.655 --> 01:27:17.916
on the podcast and he said, like,

01:27:17.935 --> 01:27:18.976
you know, this stuff is coming.

01:27:19.056 --> 01:27:20.877
Like, regardless of how you feel about AI,

01:27:20.997 --> 01:27:25.578
I think there are some impacts here that

01:27:26.199 --> 01:27:27.779
are happening regardless of whether you

01:27:27.859 --> 01:27:28.380
use it or not.

01:27:28.399 --> 01:27:28.761
Because, you know,

01:27:29.041 --> 01:27:30.501
I think when we think about agentic AI,

01:27:30.541 --> 01:27:31.121
at least me,

01:27:31.601 --> 01:27:33.662
I usually think of stories about like, oh,

01:27:33.783 --> 01:27:36.363
some morons AI agent went and erased their

01:27:36.404 --> 01:27:37.264
entire inbox.

01:27:37.304 --> 01:27:38.184
And it's just like, yeah,

01:27:38.203 --> 01:27:39.744
what idiot is using these things to begin

01:27:39.784 --> 01:27:39.925
with?

01:27:40.345 --> 01:27:41.805
But now we're seeing it's like it can

01:27:41.845 --> 01:27:42.787
go beyond that, you know,

01:27:42.827 --> 01:27:44.108
and it's unfortunate that it's one of

01:27:44.127 --> 01:27:46.389
those things where I think it's privacy

01:27:46.429 --> 01:27:46.649
people.

01:27:46.668 --> 01:27:47.609
We all kind of relate to, you know,

01:27:47.630 --> 01:27:48.270
people will be like, well,

01:27:48.289 --> 01:27:48.890
if you don't like Google,

01:27:48.911 --> 01:27:49.570
just don't use it.

01:27:49.631 --> 01:27:51.391
It's like Google Analytics is on seventy

01:27:51.431 --> 01:27:52.153
percent of websites.

01:27:52.193 --> 01:27:53.394
How am I supposed to just not use

01:27:53.434 --> 01:27:53.634
that?

01:27:53.753 --> 01:27:54.474
Like, come on, man.

01:27:55.154 --> 01:27:56.636
And it's kind of the same thing where

01:27:56.676 --> 01:27:57.876
like now they're starting to use these

01:27:58.237 --> 01:28:00.018
agents for like pen testing and hacking.

01:28:00.037 --> 01:28:00.438
And it's like,

01:28:00.877 --> 01:28:02.158
how am I just supposed to not use

01:28:02.219 --> 01:28:03.680
it when this is impacting me?

01:28:03.859 --> 01:28:03.979
And

01:28:06.136 --> 01:28:07.961
Another thing that occurred to me was we

01:28:07.980 --> 01:28:11.890
covered a story a couple episodes ago.

01:28:11.930 --> 01:28:13.555
I think I forgot to go –

01:28:13.777 --> 01:28:14.537
find that episode.

01:28:14.556 --> 01:28:15.537
But, um, we,

01:28:15.596 --> 01:28:16.957
we covered a story a while back about

01:28:17.018 --> 01:28:18.238
how, uh, with the mythos thing,

01:28:18.337 --> 01:28:18.837
I think it may have been,

01:28:18.858 --> 01:28:20.217
may have been the episode Carrie was on

01:28:20.757 --> 01:28:21.658
where, uh, you know,

01:28:21.837 --> 01:28:23.319
there were unauthorized users that were

01:28:23.359 --> 01:28:24.899
somehow gaining access to mythos.

01:28:24.918 --> 01:28:26.679
And I don't think they ever resolved how

01:28:26.698 --> 01:28:27.279
that was happening,

01:28:27.319 --> 01:28:28.699
whether it was like some kind of insider

01:28:28.760 --> 01:28:29.880
giving them access or something,

01:28:30.479 --> 01:28:31.699
but it kind of points out that it's

01:28:31.720 --> 01:28:33.199
really delusional with all these tech

01:28:33.220 --> 01:28:33.520
companies.

01:28:33.539 --> 01:28:34.159
You know, it's like, Oh,

01:28:34.279 --> 01:28:35.341
only the good guys are going to have

01:28:35.381 --> 01:28:35.520
this.

01:28:35.541 --> 01:28:36.400
We're only going to sell it to good

01:28:36.440 --> 01:28:36.661
guys,

01:28:36.961 --> 01:28:38.261
which is definitely what clear view AI

01:28:38.280 --> 01:28:39.341
said right before selling it to

01:28:39.381 --> 01:28:40.240
authoritarian regimes.

01:28:40.662 --> 01:28:41.561
But it's also like,

01:28:41.662 --> 01:28:43.242
even if they are acting in good faith,

01:28:43.301 --> 01:28:43.381
you

01:28:43.801 --> 01:28:44.162
Clearly,

01:28:44.182 --> 01:28:45.783
these people are finding access somehow.

01:28:48.807 --> 01:28:50.248
I think the last thing I wrote down

01:28:50.288 --> 01:28:52.411
here is towards the end of the article,

01:28:53.960 --> 01:28:55.381
They talked about how this is really an

01:28:55.440 --> 01:28:56.381
infrastructure problem.

01:28:56.601 --> 01:28:57.643
Let me see if I can go find

01:28:57.722 --> 01:28:57.762
it.

01:28:59.123 --> 01:28:59.744
In recent months,

01:28:59.765 --> 01:29:01.105
top AI companies have been raising

01:29:01.145 --> 01:29:02.686
concerns about the expanding cybersecurity

01:29:02.707 --> 01:29:04.748
capabilities of upcoming frontier models

01:29:04.809 --> 01:29:07.350
as the platforms increase in both

01:29:07.731 --> 01:29:08.693
expertise, creativity,

01:29:08.832 --> 01:29:10.493
and agentic autonomous operation.

01:29:10.753 --> 01:29:12.315
But researchers emphasize that this is all

01:29:12.336 --> 01:29:13.617
the more reason the fundamentals should

01:29:13.636 --> 01:29:14.337
still apply.

01:29:15.340 --> 01:29:15.640
Where was it?

01:29:15.661 --> 01:29:17.341
It was like the last quote that he

01:29:17.381 --> 01:29:19.423
made.

01:29:19.444 --> 01:29:19.744
I wish,

01:29:20.404 --> 01:29:22.207
this is a veteran security engineer and

01:29:22.266 --> 01:29:23.948
researcher, Niels Provost.

01:29:24.309 --> 01:29:24.569
He says,

01:29:24.609 --> 01:29:25.890
I wish the Frontier Lab spent as much

01:29:25.930 --> 01:29:27.072
time on teaching the models to write

01:29:27.091 --> 01:29:28.592
secure infrastructure as they're spending

01:29:28.632 --> 01:29:29.935
on exploiting vulnerabilities.

01:29:30.635 --> 01:29:32.576
And it's just kind of showing that whole

01:29:32.595 --> 01:29:34.235
like move fast and break things mentality

01:29:34.256 --> 01:29:34.877
is still here.

01:29:35.777 --> 01:29:35.997
You know,

01:29:36.296 --> 01:29:37.537
they're still out there just trying to

01:29:37.577 --> 01:29:38.078
make money,

01:29:38.497 --> 01:29:39.938
trying to like push out this newest,

01:29:39.978 --> 01:29:40.637
shiniest model.

01:29:40.658 --> 01:29:41.559
Like you were saying, it's, you know,

01:29:41.578 --> 01:29:42.979
like how scary our model is.

01:29:43.840 --> 01:29:45.340
And, you know, yeah,

01:29:45.359 --> 01:29:47.461
it's just it's unfortunate that we do not

01:29:47.541 --> 01:29:48.701
ever seem to learn our lesson.

01:29:49.060 --> 01:29:50.502
And we just keep repeating these mistakes.

01:29:50.641 --> 01:29:50.862
Well,

01:29:50.981 --> 01:29:52.922
and that quote is especially relevant here

01:29:52.962 --> 01:29:53.502
because

01:29:55.260 --> 01:29:56.581
When I'm reading this, I'm wondering,

01:29:57.681 --> 01:29:58.881
how was this vulnerability found?

01:29:58.902 --> 01:30:00.063
What was the vulnerability?

01:30:00.162 --> 01:30:03.925
And was there a more standard

01:30:03.965 --> 01:30:06.327
configuration for this proxy server that

01:30:06.346 --> 01:30:08.127
would have prevented them from doing this?

01:30:08.167 --> 01:30:09.569
Maybe if they had configured it

01:30:09.668 --> 01:30:10.788
differently when they installed it?

01:30:10.829 --> 01:30:13.451
Because I would have to imagine OpenAI

01:30:13.530 --> 01:30:15.932
probably is just asking AI

01:30:16.712 --> 01:30:18.875
to set up this secure environment and to

01:30:18.914 --> 01:30:19.935
set up this proxy server.

01:30:19.996 --> 01:30:22.097
Like, I'm sure they use AI super heavily.

01:30:22.637 --> 01:30:25.300
And so the idea that like, oh,

01:30:25.341 --> 01:30:27.863
these models should be taught more about

01:30:27.903 --> 01:30:29.963
like doing things securely in the first

01:30:30.024 --> 01:30:31.786
place rather than spending so much time

01:30:31.905 --> 01:30:33.828
like exploiting vulnerabilities,

01:30:33.847 --> 01:30:34.247
which again,

01:30:34.307 --> 01:30:36.010
I think is mainly a marketing thing.

01:30:36.050 --> 01:30:39.752
It's much more, I guess,

01:30:39.813 --> 01:30:42.135
clickbaity to say like OpenAI hacked this

01:30:42.175 --> 01:30:43.836
thing versus OpenAI

01:30:44.729 --> 01:30:46.292
made security improvements to this open

01:30:46.332 --> 01:30:47.534
source software or something like that.

01:30:47.895 --> 01:30:49.819
So unfortunately,

01:30:49.899 --> 01:30:51.202
I think like a lot of it is

01:30:51.242 --> 01:30:51.582
very

01:30:52.970 --> 01:30:54.430
attention-driven.

01:30:54.791 --> 01:30:57.292
This sort of story creates a lot of

01:30:57.332 --> 01:30:58.333
attention for OpenAI.

01:30:58.413 --> 01:30:59.774
Obviously, we're talking about it now,

01:31:00.055 --> 01:31:01.815
so it's working.

01:31:02.475 --> 01:31:06.059
And that attention is the main thing that

01:31:06.078 --> 01:31:07.739
these companies need right now,

01:31:07.779 --> 01:31:08.539
just to survive.

01:31:08.600 --> 01:31:10.601
They're obviously not making money,

01:31:11.122 --> 01:31:13.323
so they have to exist on hype and

01:31:13.363 --> 01:31:16.085
vibes alone until, in theory,

01:31:16.125 --> 01:31:16.765
they can make money.

01:31:16.845 --> 01:31:17.786
I don't know if they ever will,

01:31:17.826 --> 01:31:18.667
but that's their hope.

01:31:20.762 --> 01:31:23.606
So yeah, I mean,

01:31:23.627 --> 01:31:26.470
I don't know if I have much more

01:31:26.490 --> 01:31:27.192
to say beyond that.

01:31:27.292 --> 01:31:30.837
The AI stuff is just nuts to me.

01:31:32.659 --> 01:31:32.920
Yeah,

01:31:33.081 --> 01:31:34.622
I don't really know if I have any

01:31:34.643 --> 01:31:35.264
more to add either.

01:31:35.363 --> 01:31:35.925
I agree with you.

01:31:38.194 --> 01:31:39.376
It does make me wonder what you were

01:31:39.395 --> 01:31:40.015
saying about like,

01:31:40.036 --> 01:31:41.476
did they have the AI configure this?

01:31:41.516 --> 01:31:42.297
It's yeah.

01:31:42.337 --> 01:31:42.677
I mean, if,

01:31:42.797 --> 01:31:44.399
if you have the AI spit out code,

01:31:44.418 --> 01:31:45.319
you're just going to skim it.

01:31:45.340 --> 01:31:47.240
You're not going to sit there and audit

01:31:47.301 --> 01:31:48.481
every single line of code.

01:31:48.502 --> 01:31:49.182
You're just going to like, yeah,

01:31:49.203 --> 01:31:49.703
it looks good.

01:31:49.743 --> 01:31:50.304
Let's run it.

01:31:50.344 --> 01:31:51.404
And as opposed to like,

01:31:51.824 --> 01:31:54.225
if a human wrote the code, I mean,

01:31:54.485 --> 01:31:56.287
maybe the human would just by instinct,

01:31:56.368 --> 01:31:58.009
write it in a much more secure way,

01:31:58.069 --> 01:31:59.550
but since it looks mostly right,

01:31:59.609 --> 01:32:01.110
they don't catch it when the AI does

01:32:01.171 --> 01:32:01.291
it.

01:32:01.350 --> 01:32:02.372
And I don't know.

01:32:02.753 --> 01:32:02.894
Yeah,

01:32:02.993 --> 01:32:05.055
I just can't imagine like anyone at OpenAI

01:32:05.216 --> 01:32:06.957
is really just doing things on their own

01:32:06.997 --> 01:32:07.358
anymore.

01:32:07.578 --> 01:32:09.539
Like that would be unbelievable to me.

01:32:11.942 --> 01:32:12.322
I don't know, man.

01:32:12.341 --> 01:32:13.802
They're probably not even like, yeah,

01:32:16.666 --> 01:32:17.345
hopefully they're not.

01:32:17.365 --> 01:32:18.766
But I would imagine they have not taken

01:32:18.806 --> 01:32:19.648
that advice to heart.

01:32:21.430 --> 01:32:22.029
Yeah, who knows?

01:32:24.572 --> 01:32:27.453
We had one more forum update that we

01:32:27.475 --> 01:32:29.395
were going to cover before jumping into

01:32:29.515 --> 01:32:31.077
our final story about Apple.

01:32:33.289 --> 01:32:35.371
this one was pretty close to my heart.

01:32:35.430 --> 01:32:40.931
Is there a point in supporting projects?

01:32:40.952 --> 01:32:41.771
I don't know whose turn it is.

01:32:41.872 --> 01:32:42.432
Is this my turn?

01:32:42.672 --> 01:32:42.993
You can take it.

01:32:43.012 --> 01:32:43.792
Do you want to take this one?

01:32:43.872 --> 01:32:44.073
Okay.

01:32:45.893 --> 01:32:46.134
So yeah,

01:32:46.173 --> 01:32:48.134
this person here says that this is

01:32:48.154 --> 01:32:49.533
something that's been on their mind for a

01:32:49.554 --> 01:32:49.993
little bit.

01:32:50.675 --> 01:32:51.854
And basically,

01:32:51.954 --> 01:32:53.635
is there a point in supporting small

01:32:53.675 --> 01:32:54.216
projects?

01:32:54.355 --> 01:32:55.735
And they talked about Session,

01:32:55.775 --> 01:32:56.355
for example.

01:32:56.996 --> 01:32:59.716
And they say that, you know,

01:33:00.697 --> 01:33:01.976
they want to support projects and they're

01:33:01.997 --> 01:33:02.717
happy that they exist,

01:33:02.738 --> 01:33:03.457
but at the same time,

01:33:03.497 --> 01:33:04.377
does it actually matter?

01:33:04.417 --> 01:33:04.578
You know,

01:33:04.597 --> 01:33:05.717
if you give five dollars a month,

01:33:05.738 --> 01:33:06.438
does that help?

01:33:07.099 --> 01:33:08.198
And, you know,

01:33:09.179 --> 01:33:10.859
they might still go bankrupt or disappear.

01:33:10.939 --> 01:33:11.939
How do I know they won't go into

01:33:11.960 --> 01:33:12.659
financial trouble?

01:33:12.720 --> 01:33:13.619
So on and so forth.

01:33:14.199 --> 01:33:14.420
So.

01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:19.622
Here's here's my take based on my

01:33:19.782 --> 01:33:20.521
experiences

01:33:22.679 --> 01:33:23.479
With the new oil,

01:33:23.520 --> 01:33:24.819
with surveillance reports,

01:33:25.921 --> 01:33:27.521
and a little bit here at Privacy Guides.

01:33:27.542 --> 01:33:28.783
Privacy Guides is a little bit different

01:33:28.823 --> 01:33:30.082
than what I was doing at those

01:33:30.122 --> 01:33:30.764
organizations.

01:33:33.706 --> 01:33:34.685
So the first thing that I want to

01:33:34.845 --> 01:33:38.528
reiterate that we always say is your

01:33:38.568 --> 01:33:40.029
safety comes first.

01:33:40.069 --> 01:33:41.569
We don't want you to donate if you're

01:33:41.590 --> 01:33:43.371
going to lose your house,

01:33:43.411 --> 01:33:44.572
if you're not going to have money for

01:33:44.612 --> 01:33:46.752
food or for the baby formula or whatever.

01:33:47.672 --> 01:33:49.033
Definitely take care of yourself first.

01:33:49.094 --> 01:33:50.055
But if you have...

01:33:52.042 --> 01:33:53.182
disposable income,

01:33:55.083 --> 01:33:56.425
I think I actually wrote a big,

01:33:56.484 --> 01:33:57.445
long response here.

01:33:57.645 --> 01:34:00.349
And I mentioned that at New Oil and

01:34:00.368 --> 01:34:01.009
Surveillance Report,

01:34:01.630 --> 01:34:03.511
depending on when you measure and how,

01:34:03.730 --> 01:34:05.493
only one to five percent of people donated

01:34:05.533 --> 01:34:05.752
money.

01:34:06.634 --> 01:34:07.654
And I've said many,

01:34:07.694 --> 01:34:09.376
many times in the past that if half

01:34:09.416 --> 01:34:10.877
of the people who visited the new oil

01:34:10.936 --> 01:34:11.677
donated a dollar,

01:34:11.818 --> 01:34:13.319
I could have been doing privacy full time

01:34:13.498 --> 01:34:14.000
years ago.

01:34:14.699 --> 01:34:16.684
And so I think a lot of the

01:34:16.703 --> 01:34:17.546
time, like, yeah,

01:34:17.586 --> 01:34:18.868
if you look at it as an individual,

01:34:18.929 --> 01:34:21.172
like donating five dollars, ten dollars,

01:34:21.634 --> 01:34:23.757
even one dollar as an individual, yeah,

01:34:23.778 --> 01:34:25.220
is really not going to do anything.

01:34:26.012 --> 01:34:27.173
But it becomes – it's almost like a

01:34:27.173 --> 01:34:28.435
– this is a problem we have with

01:34:28.454 --> 01:34:28.954
voting, right,

01:34:28.994 --> 01:34:30.195
where a lot of people are like, oh,

01:34:30.235 --> 01:34:31.697
my vote doesn't count, and therefore,

01:34:31.756 --> 01:34:33.217
forty percent of America doesn't vote.

01:34:33.618 --> 01:34:34.979
And it's like those millions of votes

01:34:35.359 --> 01:34:36.900
could have potentially changed the outcome

01:34:36.921 --> 01:34:39.283
of the election, either – any election,

01:34:39.363 --> 01:34:39.783
either way.

01:34:40.264 --> 01:34:42.965
And so it's kind of the same issue

01:34:43.586 --> 01:34:44.185
in privacy,

01:34:44.225 --> 01:34:45.287
where it's like if everybody goes, yeah,

01:34:45.327 --> 01:34:46.347
well, my five dollars,

01:34:46.408 --> 01:34:47.189
all I have is a dollar.

01:34:47.208 --> 01:34:47.828
That doesn't help.

01:34:48.349 --> 01:34:48.710
Yes,

01:34:48.869 --> 01:34:50.850
but if a thousand people give a dollar

01:34:50.871 --> 01:34:52.392
a month –

01:34:51.971 --> 01:34:52.952
That's a thousand dollars.

01:34:52.992 --> 01:34:54.033
Like it, it adds up.

01:34:54.153 --> 01:34:57.793
And so, um, I would encourage people and,

01:34:57.814 --> 01:34:58.975
you know, obviously I have incentive,

01:34:58.994 --> 01:35:00.494
but I would encourage people that, yeah,

01:35:00.515 --> 01:35:02.036
if you do have money donate and,

01:35:02.176 --> 01:35:03.836
and there are so many projects out there

01:35:03.855 --> 01:35:04.337
for the record,

01:35:05.157 --> 01:35:06.457
I know it's kind of impossible to donate

01:35:06.476 --> 01:35:06.957
to all of them.

01:35:07.037 --> 01:35:07.177
So.

01:35:08.217 --> 01:35:09.539
I would recommend starting with the ones

01:35:09.560 --> 01:35:10.921
that, like, if this went away tomorrow,

01:35:11.101 --> 01:35:11.903
could you live without it?

01:35:12.143 --> 01:35:14.166
Like, I use Signal religiously.

01:35:14.706 --> 01:35:16.467
I use, well, now I use Fresh Tomato,

01:35:16.488 --> 01:35:18.511
but I used to use DDWRT and, like,

01:35:19.311 --> 01:35:19.792
NextCloud.

01:35:19.813 --> 01:35:20.012
And, like,

01:35:20.052 --> 01:35:21.113
these are all things that if they went

01:35:21.134 --> 01:35:22.015
away tomorrow, like, yeah,

01:35:22.034 --> 01:35:22.756
I'd be kind of screwed.

01:35:23.356 --> 01:35:23.676
Yeah.

01:35:24.577 --> 01:35:27.259
Things like – or another thing that's

01:35:27.319 --> 01:35:29.420
really common is rotating.

01:35:29.980 --> 01:35:31.161
This month I'm going to give five dollars

01:35:31.201 --> 01:35:31.622
to Signal.

01:35:31.662 --> 01:35:32.863
Next month I'm going to give five dollars

01:35:32.903 --> 01:35:34.863
to Fresh Tomato.

01:35:34.923 --> 01:35:36.005
Next month I'm going to give five dollars

01:35:36.024 --> 01:35:37.365
to Cubes, like that kind of thing.

01:35:37.466 --> 01:35:38.907
So I don't know.

01:35:39.606 --> 01:35:40.186
I just – yeah,

01:35:40.268 --> 01:35:41.929
this is really near and dear to my

01:35:41.988 --> 01:35:42.208
heart.

01:35:42.288 --> 01:35:44.390
It definitely – if you do have a

01:35:44.430 --> 01:35:45.190
disposable income,

01:35:45.331 --> 01:35:46.511
I strongly encourage people to donate

01:35:46.631 --> 01:35:48.193
because it does help.

01:35:48.313 --> 01:35:48.773
It adds up.

01:35:49.333 --> 01:35:49.854
Even a dollar.

01:35:49.913 --> 01:35:50.354
Like I said,

01:35:50.755 --> 01:35:52.615
if a thousand people give a dollar,

01:35:52.636 --> 01:35:53.636
that's a thousand dollars a month.

01:35:54.978 --> 01:35:57.002
I don't know if I can add much

01:35:57.021 --> 01:36:02.771
more to that without repeating myself.

01:36:02.893 --> 01:36:03.092
Yeah.

01:36:06.293 --> 01:36:06.935
It's hard to say.

01:36:07.034 --> 01:36:08.716
I think people are bummed when they

01:36:08.936 --> 01:36:12.300
support projects that eventually do go

01:36:12.380 --> 01:36:14.481
under or can't continue running.

01:36:15.323 --> 01:36:17.244
You need a lot of money to do

01:36:17.284 --> 01:36:17.925
all of these things,

01:36:18.046 --> 01:36:20.927
and some projects tend to get all of

01:36:20.948 --> 01:36:22.710
it, and then most of them don't.

01:36:22.989 --> 01:36:24.471
But I think the first reply on this

01:36:24.492 --> 01:36:24.971
forum thread...

01:36:28.033 --> 01:36:28.752
is a pretty good point,

01:36:28.773 --> 01:36:30.734
which is they basically said there's a

01:36:30.774 --> 01:36:32.134
fairly strong chance that if no one

01:36:32.154 --> 01:36:32.454
donates,

01:36:32.475 --> 01:36:33.895
then there's going to be fewer projects

01:36:33.914 --> 01:36:35.076
available overall.

01:36:35.176 --> 01:36:38.577
I guess you're sort of betting on which

01:36:38.636 --> 01:36:39.497
ones are going to succeed,

01:36:39.516 --> 01:36:41.217
and sometimes you're going to lose those

01:36:41.257 --> 01:36:41.557
bets.

01:36:41.618 --> 01:36:43.899
But if you can support all of these

01:36:43.918 --> 01:36:45.359
projects, the more you do,

01:36:45.399 --> 01:36:46.639
the more likely it is that one of

01:36:46.679 --> 01:36:47.039
them will

01:36:49.457 --> 01:36:50.237
make a big difference.

01:36:50.296 --> 01:36:52.497
And I think if nobody is supporting the

01:36:52.537 --> 01:36:53.838
small, tiny projects,

01:36:53.878 --> 01:36:56.720
then there will never be any new ones,

01:36:56.760 --> 01:36:59.822
because it'll just be too hard to get

01:36:59.841 --> 01:37:00.381
it off the ground.

01:37:00.402 --> 01:37:04.423
I can definitely tell you all for sure

01:37:04.444 --> 01:37:06.744
that probably not as many people donate to

01:37:06.765 --> 01:37:08.085
PrivacyGuides as you would think,

01:37:08.125 --> 01:37:10.086
so we can always use donations as well,

01:37:10.126 --> 01:37:13.346
but there's a ton of projects to support.

01:37:15.981 --> 01:37:18.503
can't remember if we do this currently i

01:37:18.524 --> 01:37:21.765
should look i feel like yeah for for

01:37:21.786 --> 01:37:23.707
a lot of our um recommendations on our

01:37:23.806 --> 01:37:25.768
site if they have like a donation option

01:37:25.908 --> 01:37:28.689
we we have a button to hit where

01:37:28.710 --> 01:37:30.251
you that'll link like directly to their

01:37:30.310 --> 01:37:31.692
contribution page so you can find like

01:37:31.712 --> 01:37:33.212
where to support all the projects that you

01:37:33.353 --> 01:37:36.314
use if you search for the tool on

01:37:36.354 --> 01:37:38.055
our site so that could be something to

01:37:38.556 --> 01:37:40.278
to look into but i definitely would

01:37:42.344 --> 01:37:44.105
recommend supporting anything that you use

01:37:44.746 --> 01:37:46.528
and just think of it like you know

01:37:46.608 --> 01:37:48.090
if you're using it now and you like

01:37:48.170 --> 01:37:50.712
it um and you can afford it you

01:37:50.731 --> 01:37:52.052
should you should pay for it i think

01:37:55.115 --> 01:37:57.478
yeah if it goes away it's a it's

01:37:57.537 --> 01:37:59.380
a and if it disappears it's a shame

01:37:59.420 --> 01:38:00.421
but then you can just move on to

01:38:00.480 --> 01:38:03.083
supporting something else um and hopefully

01:38:04.265 --> 01:38:05.405
uh it doesn't go away

01:38:08.037 --> 01:38:09.078
I think it's also one thing I wrote

01:38:09.097 --> 01:38:11.618
in my comment here is, um, again, it,

01:38:11.798 --> 01:38:14.979
this should be disposable income.

01:38:15.199 --> 01:38:16.819
Like this should be money that is not

01:38:16.859 --> 01:38:18.079
going to, you know,

01:38:18.140 --> 01:38:19.881
keep your kid out of college or something.

01:38:19.940 --> 01:38:21.461
But, and the example I use is like,

01:38:21.600 --> 01:38:22.900
I am, I'm a sugar addict.

01:38:23.041 --> 01:38:23.421
I actually,

01:38:23.520 --> 01:38:25.481
I finished a Mountain Dew right before we

01:38:25.502 --> 01:38:26.061
started recording.

01:38:26.082 --> 01:38:29.202
Um, you know, I, I love sugar.

01:38:29.301 --> 01:38:32.323
I'm constantly buying like fraps and sodas

01:38:32.523 --> 01:38:35.344
and, and, um, all kinds of sugary stuff.

01:38:35.984 --> 01:38:36.344
And, um,

01:38:37.719 --> 01:38:40.201
Those things cost, you know, two dollars,

01:38:40.240 --> 01:38:40.881
five dollars,

01:38:40.921 --> 01:38:42.002
depending on what I get and where I'm

01:38:42.103 --> 01:38:42.262
at.

01:38:42.743 --> 01:38:43.604
And they last me, what,

01:38:43.743 --> 01:38:44.984
a couple hours tops.

01:38:45.524 --> 01:38:47.186
And then even the high of the sugar

01:38:47.527 --> 01:38:48.948
rush eventually goes or not sugar rush.

01:38:48.967 --> 01:38:49.228
But, you know,

01:38:49.427 --> 01:38:51.329
the dopamine hit of the sugar eventually

01:38:51.369 --> 01:38:52.150
goes away, too.

01:38:52.770 --> 01:38:54.051
And so it's one of those things where

01:38:54.072 --> 01:38:54.412
it's like, yeah,

01:38:54.431 --> 01:38:57.454
I'm spending five dollars and it's going

01:38:57.475 --> 01:38:58.836
to last me half a day tops.

01:39:02.219 --> 01:39:02.958
the reward of that,

01:39:02.979 --> 01:39:03.880
whatever word I'm looking for.

01:39:04.460 --> 01:39:06.261
And whereas something like this,

01:39:06.582 --> 01:39:07.483
it's kind of one of those things where

01:39:07.502 --> 01:39:07.802
it's like,

01:39:08.663 --> 01:39:11.386
if I knew for sure that skipping one

01:39:11.405 --> 01:39:13.828
coffee a month would keep Signal around,

01:39:13.868 --> 01:39:14.389
would I do it?

01:39:14.969 --> 01:39:16.109
Yeah, absolutely.

01:39:16.750 --> 01:39:17.671
And so to me,

01:39:17.711 --> 01:39:18.712
it's kind of that same argument.

01:39:18.731 --> 01:39:21.613
It's like trying to reframe that attitude

01:39:21.673 --> 01:39:22.055
of like,

01:39:24.519 --> 01:39:26.981
I can afford to go without one soda

01:39:27.042 --> 01:39:29.246
to help this project stay around, I think.

01:39:31.345 --> 01:39:31.484
Yeah.

01:39:31.505 --> 01:39:32.265
You know, uh,

01:39:32.305 --> 01:39:33.845
Carrie said it to the diffusion of

01:39:33.886 --> 01:39:34.525
responsibility.

01:39:34.645 --> 01:39:36.127
A lot of people assume that other people

01:39:36.226 --> 01:39:38.108
are supporting, uh, like you said, it's,

01:39:38.148 --> 01:39:40.029
you know, I, I was surprised real quick.

01:39:40.109 --> 01:39:41.009
One, one more quick story.

01:39:41.069 --> 01:39:41.890
I went to the cubes.

01:39:42.130 --> 01:39:42.189
Uh,

01:39:42.210 --> 01:39:43.590
what is it like open collective one time

01:39:44.011 --> 01:39:45.011
and their annual budget is like,

01:39:45.430 --> 01:39:47.551
and I'm like, hold on, what cubes?

01:39:47.631 --> 01:39:49.432
There's like seven developers and

01:39:49.472 --> 01:39:50.894
literally not a single one of them could

01:39:50.913 --> 01:39:52.054
afford to do this full time.

01:39:52.453 --> 01:39:53.895
And they put it out an amazing operating

01:39:53.935 --> 01:39:54.194
system.

01:39:54.234 --> 01:39:55.395
Like they're probably making a lot less

01:39:55.414 --> 01:39:56.136
than you think.

01:39:56.275 --> 01:39:56.395
So

01:39:56.809 --> 01:39:57.009
Yeah,

01:39:57.029 --> 01:39:58.128
I was going to point out that exact

01:39:58.149 --> 01:39:59.109
same comment from Carrie.

01:39:59.130 --> 01:40:01.911
Because that is the case when I talk

01:40:01.930 --> 01:40:03.851
to people about privacy guides as well.

01:40:05.851 --> 01:40:07.193
Mainly people who are thinking about

01:40:07.212 --> 01:40:09.774
donating and they're asking about how

01:40:10.094 --> 01:40:10.894
everything works currently.

01:40:10.913 --> 01:40:13.654
And I think there's generally surprise

01:40:13.795 --> 01:40:16.256
about how much we're getting because they

01:40:16.376 --> 01:40:17.855
assume that we would be getting a lot

01:40:17.895 --> 01:40:18.556
more, which I think...

01:40:19.810 --> 01:40:20.871
is absolutely just a thing.

01:40:20.970 --> 01:40:23.073
I didn't know that it had a name,

01:40:23.113 --> 01:40:25.135
Diffusion of Responsibility Phenomenon.

01:40:25.154 --> 01:40:27.737
So now I know this, thanks to Carrie.

01:40:27.777 --> 01:40:29.798
But I think that's absolutely a thing with

01:40:29.819 --> 01:40:30.639
a lot of these projects.

01:40:30.720 --> 01:40:34.243
It's very easy to assume that somebody

01:40:34.262 --> 01:40:35.082
else is supporting them,

01:40:35.283 --> 01:40:35.904
so you don't have to.

01:40:36.264 --> 01:40:37.484
It's exactly the same as like,

01:40:38.405 --> 01:40:39.167
This is classic,

01:40:39.447 --> 01:40:41.347
nine-one-one first responder advice,

01:40:41.368 --> 01:40:42.229
like you have to be like,

01:40:42.488 --> 01:40:43.090
don't just say like,

01:40:43.229 --> 01:40:44.131
somebody call nine-one-one,

01:40:44.150 --> 01:40:44.951
you have to say like, you,

01:40:45.591 --> 01:40:46.552
pink shirt right there,

01:40:46.592 --> 01:40:48.054
call nine-one-one right now if you're in

01:40:48.094 --> 01:40:49.054
an emergency situation,

01:40:49.073 --> 01:40:50.416
because otherwise nobody will do it,

01:40:50.456 --> 01:40:51.076
because everyone,

01:40:52.497 --> 01:40:53.278
nobody wants to do things.

01:40:53.297 --> 01:40:55.059
So I'm telling all of you right now,

01:40:55.219 --> 01:40:57.520
you watching this, donate to something.

01:40:58.561 --> 01:40:59.282
You with the face.

01:40:59.563 --> 01:40:59.802
Yeah.

01:41:01.435 --> 01:41:02.095
One more example.

01:41:02.136 --> 01:41:03.837
If you go to NT.com slash open,

01:41:04.016 --> 01:41:06.057
they share how many customers they have

01:41:06.097 --> 01:41:07.739
and how much revenue they only make like

01:41:07.760 --> 01:41:08.699
a million dollars a year,

01:41:08.940 --> 01:41:11.122
which for a company providing that kind of

01:41:11.181 --> 01:41:12.603
infrastructure, it just,

01:41:12.662 --> 01:41:13.863
that blew my mind when I read that.

01:41:13.884 --> 01:41:14.664
I'm like, that's it.

01:41:14.725 --> 01:41:17.126
Like I've historically always worked for

01:41:17.166 --> 01:41:19.127
companies that made way more than that.

01:41:19.667 --> 01:41:21.009
And they were still small companies.

01:41:21.109 --> 01:41:22.590
Like I can't believe NT is running on

01:41:22.649 --> 01:41:23.791
such a small budget, but.

01:41:24.309 --> 01:41:24.529
I mean,

01:41:24.569 --> 01:41:26.090
now you don't work for a company making

01:41:26.130 --> 01:41:26.649
more than that.

01:41:27.291 --> 01:41:28.712
Yes, that's why I said historically.

01:41:30.332 --> 01:41:31.932
This might be the first company I've ever

01:41:31.972 --> 01:41:33.394
worked for that makes less than a million

01:41:33.434 --> 01:41:33.975
dollars a year.

01:41:34.954 --> 01:41:36.716
But just to point out the example, yeah,

01:41:36.775 --> 01:41:38.216
like what we were saying is like people

01:41:38.237 --> 01:41:39.497
think that they make a lot more money

01:41:39.518 --> 01:41:39.997
than they do.

01:41:40.037 --> 01:41:41.179
And when I saw that from Ante,

01:41:41.238 --> 01:41:42.019
I was like, really?

01:41:42.099 --> 01:41:42.819
That's it?

01:41:42.880 --> 01:41:45.020
Like, yeah, it's wild.

01:41:45.041 --> 01:41:46.181
They're doing a lot for how little they're

01:41:46.202 --> 01:41:46.761
making, but...

01:41:48.368 --> 01:41:50.408
Anyways, that's all I had on that one.

01:41:51.588 --> 01:41:52.708
Terracotta Pie just said, Light,

01:41:52.729 --> 01:41:53.569
thanks for the response.

01:41:53.649 --> 01:41:54.430
You're certainly welcome.

01:41:54.890 --> 01:41:56.350
Again, ask questions, everyone,

01:41:56.390 --> 01:41:57.730
in the chat because we will try and

01:41:57.770 --> 01:41:58.190
get to them.

01:42:00.371 --> 01:42:00.951
In the meantime,

01:42:01.391 --> 01:42:03.992
we're going to talk about Apple and how

01:42:04.131 --> 01:42:05.972
Apple has finally fixed...

01:42:08.247 --> 01:42:10.350
a vulnerability in hide my email after

01:42:10.371 --> 01:42:12.132
being shamed by four or four media,

01:42:12.153 --> 01:42:13.635
because sometimes that is what it takes.

01:42:14.395 --> 01:42:15.676
So we did cover this.

01:42:15.737 --> 01:42:16.679
I actually went and looked it up.

01:42:16.719 --> 01:42:20.663
We covered this on episode sixty when

01:42:20.703 --> 01:42:21.805
Calix OS came back.

01:42:21.864 --> 01:42:23.627
It was our second story, it looks like.

01:42:24.547 --> 01:42:25.488
So if you want to hear the original

01:42:25.509 --> 01:42:25.788
coverage,

01:42:25.809 --> 01:42:27.050
you can go back and check that out.

01:42:27.631 --> 01:42:28.871
But long story short,

01:42:29.311 --> 01:42:30.832
Apple says it is fixed to vulnerability in

01:42:30.853 --> 01:42:31.854
their Hide My Email feature,

01:42:31.894 --> 01:42:33.454
which let essentially anyone figure out a

01:42:33.515 --> 01:42:34.716
user's real email address,

01:42:34.996 --> 01:42:36.317
which was supposed to be protected by the

01:42:36.356 --> 01:42:36.676
feature.

01:42:36.837 --> 01:42:38.037
It's literally your one job.

01:42:39.859 --> 01:42:40.860
So they knew about it for about a

01:42:40.921 --> 01:42:41.360
year.

01:42:41.962 --> 01:42:42.882
And for those who don't know,

01:42:43.302 --> 01:42:44.765
hide my email is exactly what it sounds

01:42:44.805 --> 01:42:44.984
like.

01:42:45.046 --> 01:42:47.047
It's a paid feature and it lets you

01:42:47.087 --> 01:42:49.029
create a new masked email address when you

01:42:49.069 --> 01:42:51.153
sign up for something that still forwards

01:42:51.212 --> 01:42:52.253
to your main email address.

01:42:52.274 --> 01:42:52.755
So that way,

01:42:53.154 --> 01:42:54.396
if it gets caught up with spam,

01:42:54.436 --> 01:42:55.738
you can just turn it off or whatever

01:42:55.918 --> 01:42:57.581
and it won't

01:42:58.462 --> 01:43:00.203
you won't keep getting spam or they point

01:43:00.243 --> 01:43:00.984
out here, uh,

01:43:01.085 --> 01:43:02.487
hackers can also have a harder time

01:43:02.546 --> 01:43:04.208
cross-referencing your various accounts.

01:43:04.809 --> 01:43:05.730
So Tyler Murphy,

01:43:05.791 --> 01:43:07.011
co-founder of easy opt-outs,

01:43:07.051 --> 01:43:08.373
which is a service we do recommend.

01:43:08.474 --> 01:43:09.635
It is a service that I personally have

01:43:09.654 --> 01:43:10.837
been using for years and I love it.

01:43:11.556 --> 01:43:12.097
Um,

01:43:12.158 --> 01:43:14.520
he discovered this vulnerability and tried

01:43:14.560 --> 01:43:15.641
to report it to Apple.

01:43:15.983 --> 01:43:16.063
Uh,

01:43:17.404 --> 01:43:17.863
Apple,

01:43:18.505 --> 01:43:19.985
I think if I remember the original story,

01:43:20.105 --> 01:43:22.467
Apple started to reply and, you know,

01:43:22.507 --> 01:43:23.689
kind of started to work with him and

01:43:23.708 --> 01:43:24.890
then just kind of ghosted him and stopped

01:43:24.930 --> 01:43:25.390
responding.

01:43:25.909 --> 01:43:26.610
And at that point,

01:43:26.690 --> 01:43:28.051
Murphy came to four or four,

01:43:28.511 --> 01:43:29.893
four or four published a story.

01:43:30.033 --> 01:43:31.634
And now the Apple was shamed.

01:43:31.795 --> 01:43:33.615
They had to go ahead and respond again.

01:43:34.716 --> 01:43:35.837
They said that it was fixed.

01:43:35.917 --> 01:43:36.478
And at the time,

01:43:36.518 --> 01:43:38.279
four or four was not disclosing how it

01:43:38.319 --> 01:43:39.859
worked because, you know, of course,

01:43:39.899 --> 01:43:41.240
it's like they haven't fixed it yet.

01:43:41.280 --> 01:43:41.981
Anybody can do this.

01:43:42.662 --> 01:43:44.203
But now we have some information.

01:43:45.104 --> 01:43:46.324
And to put it simply,

01:43:46.805 --> 01:43:50.565
it required sending a target and a message

01:43:50.685 --> 01:43:52.167
that gets rejected as spam and you

01:43:52.226 --> 01:43:53.686
purposely want it to get rejected.

01:43:54.367 --> 01:43:54.747
They said,

01:43:54.926 --> 01:43:56.287
we don't know how often hidden email

01:43:56.307 --> 01:43:57.688
addresses were leaked in email logs.

01:43:57.707 --> 01:43:58.788
For many major email hosts,

01:43:58.809 --> 01:44:00.309
the leak was triggered simply by an email

01:44:00.328 --> 01:44:01.510
being automatically rejected.

01:44:01.869 --> 01:44:02.750
Even if it was legitimate,

01:44:02.810 --> 01:44:04.110
such emails probably didn't make it to

01:44:04.150 --> 01:44:04.671
your inbox.

01:44:04.911 --> 01:44:06.591
So you can't review your spam folder to

01:44:06.652 --> 01:44:07.752
learn whether you were affected.

01:44:08.462 --> 01:44:09.421
which is kind of scary.

01:44:10.481 --> 01:44:12.703
But yeah, basically when it got rejected,

01:44:13.882 --> 01:44:16.422
the mail transfer logs could contain the

01:44:16.483 --> 01:44:17.344
hidden email address,

01:44:17.363 --> 01:44:18.524
your original email address,

01:44:18.904 --> 01:44:21.304
which would be exposed to the attacker.

01:44:21.844 --> 01:44:24.944
I think they have a link to Tyler's

01:44:25.145 --> 01:44:27.125
blog post explaining this stuff,

01:44:27.426 --> 01:44:28.006
potentially.

01:44:29.826 --> 01:44:30.666
I could be wrong about that.

01:44:31.265 --> 01:44:34.747
But yeah, I guess that's kind of...

01:44:35.774 --> 01:44:38.015
What's going on here now that we know

01:44:38.074 --> 01:44:39.814
more about how it works?

01:44:41.435 --> 01:44:42.155
Not much of the story,

01:44:42.195 --> 01:44:44.095
just kind of a little tiny little bit

01:44:44.136 --> 01:44:45.256
of good news to end on.

01:44:46.537 --> 01:44:48.097
I want to bring Jonah in to fact

01:44:48.118 --> 01:44:49.037
check me on this one.

01:44:49.177 --> 01:44:51.979
But I did a little bit of very,

01:44:52.019 --> 01:44:53.279
very rudimentary research.

01:44:53.399 --> 01:44:55.380
And I think it is potentially possible

01:44:55.439 --> 01:44:56.960
that people like SimpleLogin and Addy

01:44:57.000 --> 01:44:58.000
might be vulnerable to this,

01:44:58.440 --> 01:45:00.121
depending on how they handle spam

01:45:00.161 --> 01:45:00.680
rejections.

01:45:00.720 --> 01:45:02.862
Do you know anything about that or

01:45:02.902 --> 01:45:03.322
anything?

01:45:03.702 --> 01:45:04.742
Is that just pure speculation?

01:45:05.282 --> 01:45:06.582
There's not a lot of...

01:45:10.743 --> 01:45:12.524
There's not a lot of details about how

01:45:12.564 --> 01:45:13.844
this works exactly.

01:45:13.944 --> 01:45:16.404
I'd have to look more into it.

01:45:17.144 --> 01:45:18.864
Because I suppose...

01:45:20.404 --> 01:45:22.024
I suppose this is probably more dependent

01:45:22.125 --> 01:45:25.485
on how your... Not the aliasing provider,

01:45:25.506 --> 01:45:27.405
but how your mailbox provider handles

01:45:28.046 --> 01:45:29.686
messages that are sent to spam.

01:45:30.627 --> 01:45:30.766
Um...

01:45:33.337 --> 01:45:37.841
I would hope that that would get reported

01:45:37.921 --> 01:45:40.042
to the aliasing provider instead of the

01:45:40.203 --> 01:45:40.983
person who sent it,

01:45:41.002 --> 01:45:42.384
which it sounds like is probably the case

01:45:42.423 --> 01:45:43.164
with Apple.

01:45:43.185 --> 01:45:46.747
But I actually don't know how that works

01:45:46.908 --> 01:45:49.269
or how this vulnerability bug works.

01:45:50.189 --> 01:45:51.250
It actually is.

01:45:51.291 --> 01:45:53.311
If you go to easyoptouts.com,

01:45:53.351 --> 01:45:54.613
there's a little banner right at the top

01:45:54.632 --> 01:45:56.234
that says CR statement about Apple's hide

01:45:56.274 --> 01:45:57.854
my email vulnerability bug.

01:45:58.159 --> 01:45:59.921
It is a twenty minute read,

01:46:00.201 --> 01:46:01.462
so we probably can't read it here.

01:46:02.622 --> 01:46:04.043
But it looks like he does go into

01:46:04.064 --> 01:46:06.865
detail.

01:46:06.926 --> 01:46:08.266
If you scroll down to the exploit.

01:46:12.590 --> 01:46:13.310
So, interesting.

01:46:13.390 --> 01:46:14.530
So, yeah, we might look into that.

01:46:15.692 --> 01:46:19.795
I'm very... Here,

01:46:19.814 --> 01:46:21.155
I'm going to share it while you're looking

01:46:21.176 --> 01:46:21.435
at this.

01:46:21.707 --> 01:46:21.947
Okay,

01:46:21.987 --> 01:46:23.807
it does say that hidden email addresses

01:46:23.847 --> 01:46:26.050
were leaked for a variety of mail hosts,

01:46:26.069 --> 01:46:28.470
so they saw them not just for iCloud,

01:46:28.490 --> 01:46:34.454
which is one thing I was wondering.

01:46:35.375 --> 01:46:37.275
I don't really understand why Apple's

01:46:37.497 --> 01:46:38.436
servers would do this,

01:46:38.457 --> 01:46:41.198
which is probably what EasyOpt does,

01:46:41.679 --> 01:46:42.939
and everyone else doesn't understand.

01:46:44.121 --> 01:46:45.140
It just doesn't make sense to me.

01:46:45.520 --> 01:46:46.061
So I...

01:46:47.742 --> 01:46:50.704
doubt this is an issue.

01:46:50.965 --> 01:46:52.586
They do say in this post,

01:46:52.865 --> 01:46:55.007
there's another email aliasing services

01:46:55.047 --> 01:46:55.408
section,

01:46:55.488 --> 01:46:59.471
and they tested this vulnerability against

01:46:59.511 --> 01:47:01.113
many of the aliasing services on the

01:47:01.154 --> 01:47:02.014
market according to them,

01:47:02.375 --> 01:47:04.917
and none of them had the same kinds

01:47:04.936 --> 01:47:05.577
of vulnerabilities.

01:47:05.697 --> 01:47:08.420
I assume at minimum they tested SimpleLuck

01:47:08.539 --> 01:47:10.981
and Addi because those are like the two

01:47:11.042 --> 01:47:13.503
main ones people typically look at.

01:47:19.563 --> 01:47:19.643
Oh,

01:47:19.662 --> 01:47:21.045
I see they have a how to tell

01:47:21.085 --> 01:47:23.027
if you're affected section here.

01:47:24.988 --> 01:47:27.230
Yeah, so I guess you can test it.

01:47:27.270 --> 01:47:28.212
I guess we could test it.

01:47:30.628 --> 01:47:31.069
But yeah,

01:47:31.470 --> 01:47:33.530
I can't imagine why Apple's service would

01:47:33.551 --> 01:47:34.492
be configured in that way.

01:47:34.511 --> 01:47:36.974
It really does sound like a specific to

01:47:37.094 --> 01:47:40.136
Apple problem.

01:47:40.315 --> 01:47:41.096
Yeah, I think you're right.

01:47:41.596 --> 01:47:42.858
I see the section here now where it

01:47:42.917 --> 01:47:43.177
says,

01:47:43.859 --> 01:47:46.600
we did limited testing against many of the

01:47:46.621 --> 01:47:48.481
major aliasing services on the market,

01:47:48.622 --> 01:47:49.563
none of the ones we tested.

01:47:49.603 --> 01:47:49.863
And yeah,

01:47:49.903 --> 01:47:51.564
SimpleLogin and Addy are definitely two of

01:47:51.583 --> 01:47:52.225
the biggest ones.

01:47:52.244 --> 01:47:54.686
So at least SimpleLogin, I would imagine,

01:47:54.726 --> 01:47:55.847
was probably tested here.

01:47:56.167 --> 01:47:56.307
Yeah.

01:47:57.662 --> 01:47:58.181
If nothing else,

01:47:58.221 --> 01:48:00.882
hopefully now those providers are aware of

01:48:00.922 --> 01:48:02.344
this and they can go test themselves and

01:48:02.384 --> 01:48:03.884
make sure they're not configured like

01:48:03.904 --> 01:48:04.145
this.

01:48:05.265 --> 01:48:05.465
Yeah,

01:48:05.564 --> 01:48:07.525
it's always a shame that these companies

01:48:07.546 --> 01:48:09.345
have to be kind of pressured into fixing

01:48:09.525 --> 01:48:10.266
obvious problems,

01:48:10.386 --> 01:48:13.228
but at least it's fixed for everyone using

01:48:13.268 --> 01:48:13.728
this.

01:48:15.628 --> 01:48:18.350
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

01:48:19.229 --> 01:48:20.390
I don't know why they have to drag

01:48:20.409 --> 01:48:21.951
their feet so much, but.

01:48:23.199 --> 01:48:25.480
I digress.

01:48:25.520 --> 01:48:25.621
Yeah,

01:48:25.640 --> 01:48:27.341
I was going to say the last note

01:48:27.360 --> 01:48:28.462
that I had written down here is we

01:48:28.502 --> 01:48:29.921
still do recommend services like

01:48:29.962 --> 01:48:32.462
SimpleLogin and Addy over Apple because,

01:48:33.342 --> 01:48:34.444
for one, they're more transparent.

01:48:34.463 --> 01:48:35.323
They're open source.

01:48:35.363 --> 01:48:37.484
I think you can even self-host SimpleLogin

01:48:37.505 --> 01:48:38.685
for sure, maybe even Addy.

01:48:39.265 --> 01:48:40.826
And lack of vendor lock-in.

01:48:40.966 --> 01:48:41.966
If one day you wake up and you're

01:48:41.985 --> 01:48:42.485
like, you know what?

01:48:42.905 --> 01:48:44.146
I'm going to move to Graphene.

01:48:44.186 --> 01:48:44.527
Guess what?

01:48:44.546 --> 01:48:46.146
You're not locked into Apple if you go

01:48:46.167 --> 01:48:47.207
with something like SimpleLogin.

01:48:47.228 --> 01:48:47.627
Yeah.

01:48:48.287 --> 01:48:52.935
yeah um but that's i think all i

01:48:52.956 --> 01:48:59.146
had yeah taken what maybe a maybe a

01:48:59.207 --> 01:49:01.752
look at our final chats here uh

01:49:03.466 --> 01:49:03.947
In Signal,

01:49:03.987 --> 01:49:06.007
somebody commented about the FCC thing.

01:49:06.688 --> 01:49:08.488
I'm also informed in our Signal chat just

01:49:08.529 --> 01:49:11.470
during the show, speaking of donations,

01:49:11.510 --> 01:49:13.770
that Cape has sent a donation to Privacy

01:49:13.791 --> 01:49:14.030
Guides.

01:49:15.150 --> 01:49:16.131
I don't know anything about that,

01:49:16.152 --> 01:49:16.992
but I'll have to look into that.

01:49:17.131 --> 01:49:20.372
But thank you to Cape for donating.

01:49:21.394 --> 01:49:25.095
Hopefully, we get other donations too.

01:49:27.256 --> 01:49:27.555
But yeah,

01:49:27.956 --> 01:49:29.596
I will have to check into that after

01:49:29.617 --> 01:49:29.877
the show.

01:49:31.637 --> 01:49:32.278
Yeah, thank you.

01:49:32.917 --> 01:49:34.399
Like I said, every little bit adds up.

01:49:34.439 --> 01:49:35.099
It really does.

01:49:35.298 --> 01:49:36.519
Even if it's just a dollar a month.

01:49:38.640 --> 01:49:40.359
Years ago, last time I checked,

01:49:40.760 --> 01:49:42.740
you guys used to have the Umami Analytics

01:49:42.921 --> 01:49:44.121
on the website publicly.

01:49:44.921 --> 01:49:46.261
And I remember checking one time out of

01:49:46.282 --> 01:49:46.801
curiosity,

01:49:46.841 --> 01:49:48.101
and it was literally like a hundred

01:49:48.141 --> 01:49:49.143
thousand visitors a month.

01:49:50.143 --> 01:49:52.543
And it's like literally if half that

01:49:52.583 --> 01:49:54.384
number gave a dollar a month,

01:49:54.764 --> 01:49:56.064
I'm sure that would go so far.

01:49:56.085 --> 01:49:57.085
That'd be sweet.

01:49:57.671 --> 01:49:58.351
If all of them did,

01:49:58.412 --> 01:50:00.814
then we'd finally be that million-dollar

01:50:00.833 --> 01:50:01.715
revenue.

01:50:02.856 --> 01:50:02.976
Yeah,

01:50:02.997 --> 01:50:04.158
we don't need nearly that much money,

01:50:04.177 --> 01:50:04.498
but we could.

01:50:05.939 --> 01:50:06.980
There's definitely improvements that could

01:50:07.001 --> 01:50:07.261
be made.

01:50:07.362 --> 01:50:10.005
I think I just wanted to,

01:50:10.045 --> 01:50:10.805
now that you mentioned it,

01:50:10.826 --> 01:50:13.729
kind of look at our stats on the

01:50:13.788 --> 01:50:15.751
form, and I think we get...

01:50:17.987 --> 01:50:19.387
I mean, we get millions of page views.

01:50:19.448 --> 01:50:20.287
I don't know if I can see how

01:50:20.328 --> 01:50:23.649
many individual people visit,

01:50:23.930 --> 01:50:24.409
but whatever.

01:50:24.470 --> 01:50:25.590
And that's another thing I think about a

01:50:25.630 --> 01:50:27.171
lot too is like, you know, with Umami,

01:50:27.190 --> 01:50:27.411
it's like,

01:50:27.451 --> 01:50:28.971
it's kind of privacy respecting analytics.

01:50:29.011 --> 01:50:29.311
So it's like,

01:50:29.351 --> 01:50:30.512
how many of those are individual and how

01:50:30.533 --> 01:50:31.432
many of those just have a different

01:50:31.472 --> 01:50:32.353
fingerprint now?

01:50:32.474 --> 01:50:33.594
Cause their browser or whatever.

01:50:33.673 --> 01:50:37.435
So yeah, it's hard to say for sure,

01:50:37.456 --> 01:50:38.395
but I mean, it's still a lot.

01:50:38.655 --> 01:50:41.898
So that's why you track visits and page

01:50:41.917 --> 01:50:42.238
views.

01:50:45.920 --> 01:50:47.480
We did get a question just now from

01:50:47.621 --> 01:50:49.622
username five, nine, five, four, nine.

01:50:50.302 --> 01:50:51.944
There are a few offline privacy focused

01:50:51.963 --> 01:50:52.564
navigation apps,

01:50:52.583 --> 01:50:53.845
but none seem to have a good interface.

01:50:53.864 --> 01:50:54.904
Do you think it is important to stay

01:50:54.925 --> 01:50:56.326
away from Google maps or is the privacy

01:50:56.365 --> 01:50:58.407
concern insignificant?

01:51:01.048 --> 01:51:02.630
I mean, in my opinion, I think the,

01:51:02.930 --> 01:51:03.550
the,

01:51:03.569 --> 01:51:05.530
I would still have one of those as

01:51:05.570 --> 01:51:07.851
a backup in case you ever lose signal

01:51:07.872 --> 01:51:08.632
or something like that,

01:51:08.693 --> 01:51:10.054
which I've been in those situations where

01:51:10.073 --> 01:51:11.475
just the cell signal is not very good

01:51:11.515 --> 01:51:12.194
and I'm kind of screwed.

01:51:13.421 --> 01:51:14.681
But from a privacy perspective,

01:51:15.462 --> 01:51:16.162
if I'm being honest,

01:51:16.222 --> 01:51:17.863
I think it really depends on where you're

01:51:17.884 --> 01:51:19.664
going and how often.

01:51:21.065 --> 01:51:22.766
If you know how to get around town

01:51:22.867 --> 01:51:25.009
and you're only ever using Google Maps

01:51:25.149 --> 01:51:26.729
once a month or once every other month

01:51:26.750 --> 01:51:28.270
when you're going somewhere new, then...

01:51:29.507 --> 01:51:30.708
it's probably not that big a deal.

01:51:30.748 --> 01:51:31.850
And especially if you're just like, Oh,

01:51:31.869 --> 01:51:33.010
I'm checking out a new restaurant or

01:51:33.029 --> 01:51:33.430
something.

01:51:34.030 --> 01:51:36.493
But if you're using it like constantly,

01:51:36.632 --> 01:51:37.993
like I used to use it at my

01:51:38.033 --> 01:51:38.573
last job.

01:51:39.375 --> 01:51:40.234
Um,

01:51:40.335 --> 01:51:41.916
I was constantly working on different job

01:51:41.956 --> 01:51:44.717
sites and because we were on the clock

01:51:44.738 --> 01:51:45.958
and we were usually going there during

01:51:46.019 --> 01:51:46.519
rush hour,

01:51:46.939 --> 01:51:48.119
I was constantly trying to find the

01:51:48.140 --> 01:51:48.921
fastest route.

01:51:48.961 --> 01:51:50.721
So I really relied on mostly Apple maps

01:51:50.742 --> 01:51:51.823
cause I had an iPhone at the time.

01:51:52.563 --> 01:51:53.363
And, uh, you know,

01:51:53.382 --> 01:51:54.703
but I was using it like every day,

01:51:54.823 --> 01:51:56.185
all the time to get to and from

01:51:56.225 --> 01:51:57.966
places just to, to skip traffic.

01:51:57.985 --> 01:51:59.006
And that was probably not great for

01:51:59.046 --> 01:52:00.747
privacy, but you know,

01:52:00.867 --> 01:52:01.447
I was on the clock.

01:52:01.466 --> 01:52:02.108
What am I going to do?

01:52:02.207 --> 01:52:03.889
So I don't know.

01:52:03.908 --> 01:52:04.809
That's, that's kind of my take.

01:52:04.828 --> 01:52:06.029
I think it depends on how often you're

01:52:06.090 --> 01:52:06.869
using it and what for.

01:52:07.350 --> 01:52:08.610
So your answer is kind of like,

01:52:09.030 --> 01:52:11.351
how much do you want to be tracked

01:52:11.412 --> 01:52:11.811
by them?

01:52:11.891 --> 01:52:12.432
I mean, pretty much.

01:52:12.493 --> 01:52:12.972
Yeah.

01:52:13.113 --> 01:52:14.453
Yeah.

01:52:14.474 --> 01:52:15.453
That is kind of what it comes down

01:52:15.474 --> 01:52:16.033
to, isn't it?

01:52:19.876 --> 01:52:21.136
But yeah.

01:52:25.094 --> 01:52:27.104
Do you satisfy your curiosity about the

01:52:27.125 --> 01:52:27.567
analytics?

01:52:31.060 --> 01:52:32.082
It's kind of complicated.

01:52:32.341 --> 01:52:35.144
We had a weird spike spike in visitors

01:52:35.243 --> 01:52:37.707
on the sixteenth for some reason.

01:52:37.747 --> 01:52:39.507
I wonder why that was.

01:52:39.528 --> 01:52:41.029
Dude, I get the same thing on mine.

01:52:41.529 --> 01:52:43.230
I'm really genuinely convinced it might be

01:52:43.270 --> 01:52:45.113
like a scraping because it'll literally go

01:52:45.153 --> 01:52:47.253
from like a couple hundred visitors a day

01:52:47.635 --> 01:52:50.037
to like ten thousand visitors at four a.m.

01:52:50.077 --> 01:52:50.856
on a Tuesday.

01:52:51.217 --> 01:52:52.698
And then it'll drop back down and it's

01:52:52.719 --> 01:52:55.001
just like something fishy is going on

01:52:55.041 --> 01:52:55.180
there.

01:52:56.260 --> 01:52:57.881
What did we do on the sixteenth of...

01:52:57.940 --> 01:53:00.122
I mean, the weird thing is it stayed...

01:53:00.521 --> 01:53:01.162
That was the peak,

01:53:01.182 --> 01:53:03.203
but it stayed pretty high for the week

01:53:03.243 --> 01:53:04.524
following that on this graph.

01:53:04.644 --> 01:53:07.725
I have no idea why that would be.

01:53:07.966 --> 01:53:09.447
I don't have a calendar open in front

01:53:09.466 --> 01:53:10.726
of me, so that is a good question.

01:53:11.507 --> 01:53:11.927
Anyways...

01:53:11.948 --> 01:53:16.470
I think we want to close this out,

01:53:16.489 --> 01:53:17.490
or you got anything else you want to

01:53:17.511 --> 01:53:17.690
add?

01:53:18.331 --> 01:53:22.713
I'm not seeing anything on Signal or the

01:53:22.774 --> 01:53:24.434
form, so...

01:53:26.641 --> 01:53:28.622
Did you see the news about Codeburg

01:53:28.863 --> 01:53:30.465
banning cryptocurrency projects?

01:53:31.985 --> 01:53:33.006
I skimmed it briefly.

01:53:33.127 --> 01:53:35.248
I saw the forum post about it and

01:53:35.369 --> 01:53:36.631
something about, you said it was,

01:53:36.871 --> 01:53:37.612
what was your wording?

01:53:37.912 --> 01:53:40.154
It was extraordinarily poorly worded.

01:53:40.613 --> 01:53:41.756
Well, I just don't understand it.

01:53:41.796 --> 01:53:42.837
I guess I don't have much to say

01:53:42.877 --> 01:53:43.176
about it,

01:53:43.216 --> 01:53:44.818
but it seems like they're saying two

01:53:44.837 --> 01:53:45.418
different things.

01:53:45.519 --> 01:53:46.939
And it doesn't really make a lot of

01:53:46.979 --> 01:53:47.520
sense to me,

01:53:47.740 --> 01:53:50.844
but just a weird thing I've saw in

01:53:50.863 --> 01:53:51.444
the forum lately.

01:53:53.536 --> 01:53:53.936
Is it just,

01:53:54.378 --> 01:53:56.083
they're basically just bamming scammy

01:53:56.283 --> 01:53:57.006
crypto products?

01:53:58.230 --> 01:53:59.631
Well, yeah, I mean,

01:54:00.452 --> 01:54:01.771
like in this banner at the top of

01:54:01.792 --> 01:54:02.231
their page,

01:54:02.271 --> 01:54:04.212
they just say cryptocurrency projects are

01:54:04.252 --> 01:54:04.953
no longer allowed.

01:54:04.993 --> 01:54:07.472
And that's also what it says on their

01:54:07.832 --> 01:54:08.514
terms of service.

01:54:08.533 --> 01:54:11.154
But then like in a random comment on

01:54:11.194 --> 01:54:13.435
this thread about the change,

01:54:13.475 --> 01:54:16.015
they explain that it's only scammy ones,

01:54:16.836 --> 01:54:19.195
which is not what it says.

01:54:19.515 --> 01:54:21.777
But I guess if you go down and

01:54:21.837 --> 01:54:22.837
read this random comment,

01:54:22.856 --> 01:54:24.578
you would know which ones are allowed and

01:54:24.597 --> 01:54:25.137
which ones aren't.

01:54:28.771 --> 01:54:29.192
Interesting.

01:54:29.212 --> 01:54:30.354
I wonder if it's one of the,

01:54:30.373 --> 01:54:31.194
what do they call that,

01:54:31.213 --> 01:54:33.657
like a silent policy?

01:54:35.457 --> 01:54:36.219
Yeah, I mean,

01:54:36.259 --> 01:54:37.780
it feels like it'll just be enforced

01:54:37.801 --> 01:54:39.261
probably arbitrarily,

01:54:39.322 --> 01:54:42.064
which is probably not how I would prefer

01:54:42.125 --> 01:54:43.525
the services that I use operate.

01:54:44.587 --> 01:54:45.868
Codeburg kind of annoys me sometimes.

01:54:45.908 --> 01:54:48.090
It's one of the reasons I don't want

01:54:48.109 --> 01:54:48.690
to switch to it.

01:54:48.711 --> 01:54:49.851
I know people ask us that all the

01:54:49.891 --> 01:54:50.192
time,

01:54:50.512 --> 01:54:52.734
and I don't really like Codeburg or GitLab

01:54:52.755 --> 01:54:52.854
or

01:54:53.268 --> 01:54:55.729
more than i mean i i like him

01:54:55.769 --> 01:54:57.329
like just a little more than github but

01:54:57.369 --> 01:54:58.970
not enough to switch off of github but

01:54:59.109 --> 01:55:01.171
i do like codebook software i i would

01:55:01.270 --> 01:55:07.253
love for joe to get to the point

01:55:07.274 --> 01:55:08.875
where we could we could switch to it

01:55:08.895 --> 01:55:10.435
but i really wish it had federation and

01:55:10.475 --> 01:55:13.136
they have and that's taking a really long

01:55:13.176 --> 01:55:16.858
time so sadly i don't know i mean

01:55:16.877 --> 01:55:18.538
can't complain about it too much i don't

01:55:18.559 --> 01:55:20.439
know how to speed it up so but

01:55:20.519 --> 01:55:21.420
it it just is

01:55:26.797 --> 01:55:28.118
I'm sure that ActivityPub is not

01:55:28.158 --> 01:55:29.760
necessarily perfect for everything,

01:55:29.800 --> 01:55:31.301
but I do really like the idea of

01:55:31.541 --> 01:55:32.981
so many different services being

01:55:33.202 --> 01:55:34.863
ActivityPub compatible because then you've

01:55:34.882 --> 01:55:37.664
got this ideal scenario where it's like,

01:55:38.005 --> 01:55:39.645
I can comment on YouTube, Instagram,

01:55:39.685 --> 01:55:40.786
Twitter, GitHub,

01:55:42.006 --> 01:55:43.368
all these different things from one

01:55:43.408 --> 01:55:43.768
account.

01:55:43.847 --> 01:55:45.349
And I don't need to keep making accounts

01:55:45.368 --> 01:55:46.250
if I don't want to.

01:55:46.409 --> 01:55:48.690
And that is probably one of my favorite

01:55:48.711 --> 01:55:49.572
things about the Fediverse.

01:55:49.591 --> 01:55:49.692
Yeah.

01:55:50.760 --> 01:55:51.360
And it's like,

01:55:52.841 --> 01:55:53.921
I hope they can do it soon.

01:55:54.382 --> 01:55:56.925
It feels like it actually wouldn't be that

01:55:56.965 --> 01:55:59.926
complicated for this use case because Git

01:56:00.027 --> 01:56:01.847
is already decentralized.

01:56:01.927 --> 01:56:04.189
So you pretty much only have to federate

01:56:06.171 --> 01:56:09.634
issues and stars and pull requests is

01:56:09.673 --> 01:56:10.635
probably the hardest one,

01:56:10.675 --> 01:56:12.957
but Git already has...

01:56:14.533 --> 01:56:16.235
ways to work on things remotely and on

01:56:16.256 --> 01:56:17.596
different branches and you can just pull

01:56:17.617 --> 01:56:18.658
it in from a different site so it

01:56:18.677 --> 01:56:21.000
feels like it wouldn't be extraordinarily

01:56:21.359 --> 01:56:23.081
difficult like it's basically just

01:56:23.121 --> 01:56:25.382
comments and reactions is the main thing

01:56:25.422 --> 01:56:27.685
which is which is already done by every

01:56:27.744 --> 01:56:30.327
single activity pub platform out there

01:56:30.367 --> 01:56:32.668
that's that's how they work it's comments

01:56:32.708 --> 01:56:34.131
and posts right um

01:56:35.662 --> 01:56:42.944
But I mean, I'm obviously not coding it,

01:56:43.105 --> 01:56:45.265
so I can't provide too much input or

01:56:46.186 --> 01:56:47.186
complain about it too much.

01:56:48.167 --> 01:56:49.287
Because I'm not going to do it myself,

01:56:49.328 --> 01:56:49.908
I can tell you that.

01:56:52.389 --> 01:56:55.989
Fair enough.

01:56:56.010 --> 01:56:56.890
I think that's kind of it then.

01:56:57.390 --> 01:56:58.610
So yeah,

01:56:58.631 --> 01:57:04.453
I think you can wrap it up.

01:57:04.493 --> 01:57:05.113
Nate, you're muted.

01:57:06.913 --> 01:57:07.875
I hit the button too many times.

01:57:07.895 --> 01:57:10.055
My bad.

01:57:10.076 --> 01:57:10.577
All right.

01:57:10.596 --> 01:57:11.978
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