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Society builders pave the way to a better world, to a 
better day. A united approach to building a new society.

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Join conversation.  For Social
Transformation. Society Builders.

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Society Builders with
your host, Duane Varan.

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Welcome to another exciting episode
of Society Builders, and thanks

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for joining the conversation
for Social Transformation.

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In our last two episodes, we explored
Abdul-Baha's engagement with the discourse

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of His day around governance reform
in Iran, and we discovered how the

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early Persian Baha'i community engaged
with this issue, helping give rise to

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Iran's first democratic institutions.

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But as the Reform movement became
increasingly political and divisive,

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Abdul-Baha advised the Baha'i
community to disengage with this

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issue and shift their focus from
political reform to social reform.

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And the Baha'i community did exactly that.

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They disengaged with the political reform
movement almost entirely, and instead,

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focused their energy on addressing Iran's

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social woes. And foremost amongst
these was the need for better

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healthcare and for the provision of
education for Iran's young. Today,

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and over the course of the next two
episodes, we're going to explore the

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amazing achievements of these Baha'is
in one of these domains, in the

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promulgation of what would become
a network of over 60 schools spread

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out across the entire Iranian nation.

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It's a truly remarkable story
and may well represent our best

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example of society building yet.

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We're gonna do this across two episodes.

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Today's episode provides the
background and context and

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summarizes the story of the rise
of this network of over 60 schools.

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And in our next episode, we'll
explore the impact this all had,

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and discuss how and why it all
came to a screeching halt in 1934.

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Now I'm honored once again to have as my
guest today eminent Baha'i historian,.

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Dr. Moojan Momen .

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Dr. Momen

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is a true authority on the
history of the early Iranian believers.

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He's written numerous books, book
chapters, and articles on this early

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period, and he's the recipient of numerous
awards celebrating his scholarship.

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So today we feature an interview with

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dr.  Moojan Momen on the transformation 

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of education in Iran

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Moojan jan -

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welcome once again
to Society Builders.

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Momen: Well, thank you.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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It's a great pleasure to be back.

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Varan: Now Moojan Jan,

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today we're gonna talk about educational
reform in Iran specifically, we're talking

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about the network of schools, which Baha'is
and Iran opened in the early part of

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the 20th century, acting on Abdul Baha's
counsel, you know, creating a network of

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over 60 schools all across the country.

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I mean, it's such a remarkable story.

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I.

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Let's start today's journey by helping
paint a picture of what the education

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system in Iran was like prior to the
opening of the Baha'i schools there.

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You know, I've read one statistic
that claims that the literacy rate

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in Iran as late as 1950 was 13.

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Percent, I mean, 13%!

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It's almost like the entire
society was entirely illiterate.

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And you know, one must assume that
almost all of that 13% was men and

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not women, and most of that population
was probably in Tehran rather than

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much of the rest of the country,

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so leaving most of the rest of
the country completely illiterate.

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And and a good portion of that
13% were probably even Baha'i.

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So the literacy rate outside the Baha'i
community must have been even worse.

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I mean, these are
incredibly bad statistics.

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Why was literacy so incredibly
neglected in Iran at the time?

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Momen: I think this wasn't particular to Iran.

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In almost every country in the world,
if you go back 200 years, then the

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only people who were literate in,
in a traditional society were the

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religious leaders who needed to read

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the Holy Books and court officials such
as secretaries and treasurers who would've

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needed to keep records and perhaps people
like wholesale merchants who were sort

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of needing to write to other merchants
in other cities and receive letters.

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So there were very few people
in a traditional society

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who needed to be literate.

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So... And certainly no one out in the
countryside or, or, and you have to

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remember, in Iran, up until even the 1930s
and 40s, a very large proportion of

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the population were actually nomadic.

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They didn't
even, they, they wandered the

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countryside, with their flocks.

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So they, and, and the people in
the villages 

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None of them needed literacy and,
and it was a luxury, and it

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was a luxury that required money.

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You had to pay a teacher.

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So there was not a great deal of incentive
to, to become literate in such a society.

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So therefore, in Iran, as in many
countries, If, if you are living in a

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traditional society, you don't need to be
literate and it's a luxury to be literate.

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And Iran was in that state and,
and continued to be in that state,

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and the government didn't make
efforts to build schools and,

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and to...  I'm talking about,

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now in the 1920s and 30s. There
was a government initiative to build

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schools, but this really only, it
didn't reach out to the majority of

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the population who lived in small
villages, or, as I say, were nomadic.

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It, it, it only really took effect
in the larger towns and cities.

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Varan: So what was the education system
like in Iran before Baha'is

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began opening our schools there?

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Momen: The traditional education in Iran
was the, what was called the Maktab,

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which was, you could translate that
as a traditional school if you like.

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And there you would have a, a teacher
who was very often a mullah, a

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religious, a cleric who would teach the
children basically to read the Quran.

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But because in Iran,
The Quran is in Arabic.

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They didn't understand
what they were reading.

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They could just read the words.

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So they, and they memorized
part or all of the Quran.

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So, so they were, they were
taught elementary reading and

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writing, and they couldn't, would

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be taught to memorize
Persian poetry, for example.

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But what you would have is just the
teacher sitting on the ground in the

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middle of a circle of children of
all different ages and abilities,

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in a single class.

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There'd be a lot of learning whereby
they just recited after the teacher

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words and, and try to commit
these words to memory.

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There was a lot of corporal
punishment handed out.

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You could expect to be beaten once or
twice a day, at the very least, as a

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child, and as I say, because they were
all different ages and all different

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abilities in a single class, it was
very difficult for any one child to

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actually make progress because either
the lesson was above you or it was

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below you in in its level very often.

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So that that's what went on.

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And they, it would be a small
group of children and maybe 8

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or 10, it, it would, they
would have to pay them all less.

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So it would only be the more affluent
children who, who could even gain

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this much learning and that they would
pay, pay them all less to come along

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and be taught these few sort of very
elementary skills of, of reading the

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reading and writing Persian, and

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memorizing some poetry and so on.

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Varan:And how were the Baha'i schools that 
opened different from these traditional, 

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Maktabs, these traditional schools in Iran?

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Momen: Well, the Baha'i schools were based on a,
what you might call a modern curriculum.

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So, so they would, they were based on
a, a school structure where you, you

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differentiated the class
according to age or ability.

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So you had people of roughly the
same age and ability in one class.

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In each of your classes, you had
several classes, and you were

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teaching modern subjects, 
history, geography, mathematics,

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science, these sorts of subjects.

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This sort of education had
been going on in Iran before

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the Baha'i schools started up.

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The American missionaries who came
to Iran at the beginning of the

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19th Centuries did set up a number
of schools, but the, these American

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missionaries were directing themselves
only to other Christians in Iran.

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Iran had populations of Christians
up in the northwest of the country.

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There were

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whole villages who are Christians.

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These were what, what are called
Astorian or Assyrian Christians and

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elsewhere there were, in some of
the cities like Isfahan, there was a,

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a whole quarter that was Armenians, for
example, Armenian Christians and the

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missionaries were trying to convert.

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These people who were already Christians
from being whatever sect of Christianity

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they were to being Protestant Christians,
Presbyterian, mainly Christians.

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So those American schools were being
run on modern lines, but they were

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only for a very small minute

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percentage of the population.

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And then from about 1900 onwards,
these modern secular reformers started

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talking about the need to set up modern
schools in the larger cities.

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And they started also doing that,
actually setting up these schools.

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And, and the Baha'is were then at
the forefront of this movement

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to set up modern schools in the
towns and cities of, of Iran.

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But, but as I say, there,
there were also secular

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reformers setting up schools in some
of the, in, in some of the cities and

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and basing this on modern curriculum
and modern methods of pedagogy and

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modern structure of the school as a
whole in terms of the classes and so on.

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Varan: How did the first of
these schools get set up?

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The, the Baha'is schools, as I said,
that the Baha'is had been talking about

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the need for education for a time, and,
and then once they saw an opportunity

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to get this going after the, the
Constitutional Revolution gave them

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more freedom to, to do these sorts of
things, because prior to that time, if

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they tried to do anything, the religious
leaders would've immediately quashed it.

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But after the Constitutional
Revolution with

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other secular reformers starting
to talk about setting up schools.

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Then the Baha'is saw it as an opportunity
for them to also start to set up schools.

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So in Tehran, in particular, the
Baha'i community got together

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and decided to set up

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first the boys' school and immediately
afterwards, a girls' school.

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I mean, this was a, a huge problem
because you had to find teachers who

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could teach these modern subjects.

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There weren't a great number
of such people around.

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And, and to, to find them.

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you, so you had to find them.

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You had to get buildings,
you had to get finance.

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Even such a simple thing as the, the
furniture for a school was a problem

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because, local carpenters had no
concept of desks and tables and so on.

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So they didn't
know how, they had to sort of be

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presented with pictures from America - from
schools in Europe and America and say,

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'can you build us something like this'?

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And, and they would try and do that.

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So everything was a problem.

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It was a major sort of,
obstacle to, to overcome.

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But, but they, you know, the obstacles
were dealt with and, and overcome

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and, and these schools were set up.

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Varan: You, you had mentioned earlier that you
know that the Baha'is in Tehran set up a

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boys school and then immediately after
set up a girls's school, and that really

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was a common feature of these schools.

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I mean, in a society where women had
no opportunities, particularly no

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opportunities for education, suddenly
these Baha'is schools are, are, are

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popping up for boys and for girls.

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And this was something that
Abdul-Baha really insisted on.

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Maybe you could tell us a little
bit about how that process unfolded.

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Momen: Well, obviously the
Baha'is were living in a culture

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and a society that thought that
education for girls was pointless.

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That their only task in
life was to become mothers and they

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didn't need to be educated to do that.

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And so there, there was no
need for educating girls.

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And this wasn't

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particular to Iran.

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This was a widespread view in the
19th century, even in Britain.

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There were people who, who thought
that way, but certainly in Iran,

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that was the predominant view and the
Baha'is knew as part of their teachings

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that they were supposed to be 
advancing the role of women in society.

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And, and so, you know, in the back of
their minds there was this idea that,

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well, we had to start educating girls.

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So, They started to think about, well, we
need to make a, to do a, a high school,

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for girls as well as boys.

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And Abdul-Baha

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 was constantly sort of encouraging
that, and, and in a few places, for

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example, where they set up a boys'
school and hadn't set up a girls'

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school, Abdul-Baha would write to that

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town and say, 'well congratulations
for setting up a boys' school,

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now, set up a girls' school as well.'

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He would sort of instruct them
to do that, but I think, you know,

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gradually the Baha'is got the message
and they would always set up a girls'

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school in parallel with the boys' school.

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In some small villages,

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they even had mixed co-educational
schools, just because they

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weren't a large number of children.

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And that was the only
practical way of doing it.

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But that was, that was a rarity
because the society demanded a

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separate education for girls and boys.

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Varan: How did the network spread?

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So effectively, how did, how did it
grow from that first school in Tehran

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00:15:27,870 --> 00:15:32,010
to, you know, this network of
over 60 schools all over the country?

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Even, even in very small
towns and villages?

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Momen: Yeah, so the modernist reformers were
setting up schools in the larger towns

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and cities, but the Baha'is went much
further and started to set up schools,

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even in small towns and villages.

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No one thought that this
was even a viable prospect.

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For example, in one small town
in the south near Shiraz, where

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the Baha'is started to set up a school.

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The governor called one of the leading
Baha'is to Shiraz and said to him: 'we can't

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00:16:02,225 --> 00:16:04,385
even get a modern school set up in Shiraz,

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00:16:04,535 --> 00:16:07,205
how do you expect to set up
a school in your small town?'

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00:16:07,564 --> 00:16:11,975
It was just sort of inconceivable to them
that this should happen. But the Baha'is,

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00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,380
because they had it as part of their
teachings because Abdul-Baha was

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encouraging them, because they saw the
Baha'is in the larger towns and cities,

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00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,840
setting up schools and educating their
children think, started thinking, 'well,

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we want this for our community as well.'

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00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:30,360
And you know, wherever, in whatever
town or village there was a large enough

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00:16:30,420 --> 00:16:35,010
community, they started to think about,
well, can we get a school going here?

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And again, they, they were
faced with exactly the same

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00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,500
problems, finance buildings.

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Furniture, finding a teacher who
would be prepared to come from

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the big city to the small village
and, uh, teach the children there.

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All of these things they had to overcome,
but, but they had the drive to do it.

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00:16:54,030 --> 00:16:57,300
And in, in many, even small
villages, it was done.

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00:16:57,305 --> 00:17:01,470
And, and the high schools were opened
and they were very often the only school,

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well, in fact, in almost every case where,
where we're talking about a village, that

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that was the only school in the village.

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So even the

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00:17:09,315 --> 00:17:12,885
inhabitants of the village that
weren't Baha'is would often would often

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00:17:12,885 --> 00:17:16,935
send their children to the school
because they recognized the importance

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00:17:16,935 --> 00:17:18,405
of education for their children.

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Let's put it another way.

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00:17:20,175 --> 00:17:23,775
Those people in the village who
recognize the importance of education

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00:17:23,780 --> 00:17:26,954
for their children had no choice
but to send their children to the

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00:17:26,954 --> 00:17:28,785
Baha'is school, and so they did.

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00:17:28,785 --> 00:17:29,895
And very often these were the

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00:17:30,570 --> 00:17:35,400
leading members of society in the
village or the, or the small town.

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00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,230
So the Baha'i School would get prestige
from the fact that the children of the

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00:17:40,235 --> 00:17:45,780
leading citizens of the village were, were
coming to, to the Baha'i school and, yes.

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00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:47,730
So, so that, that's
how the network spread.

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It was basically Baha'is in each locality
deciding 'well, other towns are doing this,

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00:17:53,929 --> 00:17:55,730
other Baha'i communities are doing this.

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00:17:55,730 --> 00:17:58,129
We, we need to do this
as well for our children.'

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00:18:07,185 --> 00:18:10,635
Varan: So these schools were open to
members of, of wider society as well.

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00:18:11,055 --> 00:18:14,055
How much did people from
wider society take that up?

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I mean, you can see a
little bit of a dilemma.

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On the one hand, you know, you have
this society which sees Baha's as outcasts.

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And on the other hand, you know,
we, we have this opportunity that we

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provide the community for education.

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What was it like

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00:18:30,685 --> 00:18:35,285
what, what was that like for people from
wider society in terms of them, you know,

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the, the opportunity was there for them?

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00:18:36,995 --> 00:18:37,475
Certainly.

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How, how much would people take that out?

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00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:44,400
Momen: Well, I think for those people who
recognized that education was good for

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00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,560
their children, they, they were prepared
to overcome their prejudices, in order

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00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,420
for their children to get an education.

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If, if the Baha'is were the only school
in town then, then those people who

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00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:59,940
recognized that this was important
for their children, just got

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00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:03,060
over their prejudices and sent
their children to the school.

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00:19:03,580 --> 00:19:06,420
And, and even in some of the
large towns where there were other

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00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:10,530
schools, the Baha'i schools were
very often recognized as being the,

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00:19:10,830 --> 00:19:12,690
the best school in, in the town.

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00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:17,680
And so even there, people who were not
Baha'is were sending their children

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00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:21,600
to the Baha'i School in preference
to say the government school or a

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00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,010
school opened by a private individual
because it was the best school

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00:19:26,270 --> 00:19:28,070
in the town for their children.

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And this whole process
was being driven really by the

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00:19:33,530 --> 00:19:35,449
interest Abdul-Baha took in the school.

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00:19:35,449 --> 00:19:38,810
His constant guidance to the community.

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00:19:38,810 --> 00:19:43,610
His always trying to, to raise the
standard of the Baha'i community and raise

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00:19:43,610 --> 00:19:48,260
the standards to these schools so that
they did become the best in each town.

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00:19:48,860 --> 00:19:52,699
For example, in Tehran, he
actually got some American.

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00:19:52,750 --> 00:19:57,370
Baha'is to come to Tehran and become
teachers in the school so

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00:19:57,370 --> 00:20:01,960
as to, to get the best education
possible going on in those schools.

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00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:03,310
Ah, yes.

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00:20:03,315 --> 00:20:05,470
As I say, Abdul-Baha was
constantly interested.

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00:20:05,475 --> 00:20:10,210
He gave advice on the curriculum
and other, other matters, and.

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00:20:10,590 --> 00:20:14,220
He also removed some of the
obstacles for the Baha'is.

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00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,090
For example, in one place there was
a, a local official who was very

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00:20:18,090 --> 00:20:21,629
much prejudiced against the Baha'is
and closed down a Baha'is school.

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00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,190
And Abdul-Baha immediately wrote to the
Prime Minister of the time, who was broadly

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00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:30,389
sympathetic to the Baha'is and Abdul-Baha
said to him, 'you speak about trying to

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00:20:30,389 --> 00:20:33,960
bring progress to Iran, but you, you
know, you are allowing this to happen

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00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,250
in, in this town that a local official
is closing down the schools, which is

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00:20:38,675 --> 00:20:41,254
the main instrument for
bringing progress to Iran.'

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00:20:41,254 --> 00:20:44,915
And so the Prime Minister wrote and
ordered that the school be reopened.

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00:20:45,544 --> 00:20:50,345
And all of these things gave prestige
to the Baha'i community, made it easier

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00:20:50,375 --> 00:20:54,365
for those people who are not Baha'is
to send their children to the school.

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00:20:55,085 --> 00:20:56,675
Yeah, so, so the Baha'i schools

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00:20:56,950 --> 00:20:58,510
became very prestigious,

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00:20:58,510 --> 00:21:02,680
they, they became somewhere where you
wanted to send your children and many,

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00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,850
many very prominent people did send
their children to the Baha'i schools.

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00:21:07,150 --> 00:21:13,120
Once Reza Shah, the first Shah of
the Pahlavi dynasty came to power, in

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00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:15,100
the early years of his reign,

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00:21:15,490 --> 00:21:17,890
when the Baha'i schools were
still open, there were

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00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:21,399
very prominent minister sending
their children to the Baha'i school.

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00:21:21,399 --> 00:21:26,620
Even the Shah himself sent some of his
children to the Baha'i school, because

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00:21:26,620 --> 00:21:28,870
it was the best education in in town.

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00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:44,040
Varan: And of course, the contribution of the Baha'i
community to this discourse transcended

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00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,600
just the idea of the modern curriculum.

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00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,820
It was also new ideas around how to
discipline children, you know, a

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00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:54,210
change, a contrast in terms of concepts
of, of how to discipline children.

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00:21:54,510 --> 00:21:57,870
Could you tell us a little bit about that dialog
at the time, that discourse at the time.

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00:21:57,870 --> 00:22:02,460
Momen: Yes, there were, there
were lots of ways that the Baha'i

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00:22:02,460 --> 00:22:07,470
schools influence society, and this, this
actually applies to the other secular

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00:22:07,470 --> 00:22:11,190
schools as well, and the government
schools, that there were modern ideas

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00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:15,540
about sport and physical education, for
example, that, that were being spread.

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00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:19,950
But the Baha'i schools were particular
in leading the way to gradually

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00:22:19,955 --> 00:22:23,010
eliminating corporal punishment, 

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00:22:23,075 --> 00:22:23,795
physical discipline.

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00:22:24,185 --> 00:22:29,315
Previously, this had been universal
in the schools in Iran.  Even when the

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00:22:29,645 --> 00:22:33,575
schools transitioned from the, from the
traditional Maktabs, the traditional

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00:22:33,575 --> 00:22:38,315
schools to modern schools, there was still
a lot of beating going on of children.

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00:22:38,645 --> 00:22:39,845
It was considered

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00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,260
the right way to educate children.

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And that wasn't just in Iran, that that
was universal in in Europe and, and North

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00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:49,790
America as well. And the Baha'i schools,

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00:22:49,795 --> 00:22:51,830
again, this was a gradual process,

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00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:55,610
I'm not saying that as soon as the Baha'i
school was built, the corporal punishment,

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00:22:55,610 --> 00:22:58,160
physical punishment was eliminated, but

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00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,540
over the years, an understanding
grew in the Baha'i community, helped

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00:23:02,545 --> 00:23:07,340
on by Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi,
that this was inappropriate way of

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00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,930
treating children and, and therefore
that, that it should be eliminated.

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00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,260
And gradually, it was eliminated from
the Baha'i schools and many of the Baha'i

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schools led the way in that, in Iran and
in particular, the Hand of the Cause, 

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00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,190
Ali Akbar Foroutan, forbade

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00:23:25,655 --> 00:23:29,105
all corporal punishment in the
Tarbiyat school during the time that he

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00:23:29,105 --> 00:23:31,955
was the headmaster of that school.

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00:23:32,255 --> 00:23:37,775
And in later years he went on the
radio in, in Iran and gave talks

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00:23:37,835 --> 00:23:40,265
which were focused on family life.

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00:23:40,295 --> 00:23:44,855
But as part of their talking about
family life, he strongly discouraged

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hitting children at home as well.

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Varan: So thus far we've explored the 
background and history associated with the rise

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00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,090
of this network of over 60 schools,
spread right throughout the Iranian

362
00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:11,820
nation, providing many towns and villages
with literally their only schools.

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00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,949
We've seen how the Baha'i schools provided
what was just about the only schooling

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00:24:16,949 --> 00:24:20,010
available in the Iranian nation for girls.

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00:24:20,610 --> 00:24:24,030
And we've discovered how Baha'i
schools eventually challenged

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00:24:24,330 --> 00:24:28,170
the harsh traditional practices
of disciplining school children.

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But what impact did all of this have for
both Baha'is and for wider Iranian society?

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00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:40,080
And how did this amazing network suddenly
come to a screeching halt in 1934?

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00:24:40,695 --> 00:24:46,125
These are themes we explore in our next
episode, part two of my interview with

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00:24:46,125 --> 00:24:49,155
dr. Momen on educational reform in Iran.

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So a special thank you to Moojan for
today's episode and a special thank you

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00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,014
to you, the audience for joining us today.

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00:24:57,525 --> 00:25:01,905
I look forward to joining you again
when we continue our discussion with 

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00:25:01,935 --> 00:25:02,504
Dr. Moojan Momen.

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00:25:03,175 --> 00:25:06,505
That's next time on Society Builders.

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00:25:08,185 --> 00:25:13,345
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