[00:00:00] Dan: hello and welcome back to we, not me. The podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond. 

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. 

[00:00:14] Dan: And how is, how are you doing Pia and how is your move going more to the point?

[00:00:18] Pia: Oh, it's all very exciting. We actually settled on, um, on Friday, which means all the paperwork happens. Um, quite interesting. Um, because our friend, the goat that nearly tossed me out of, uh, the, the last story. To have a look around the property and had a little altercation with a local goat. He nearly became part of the settlement. I've never heard of that before, where we were asked whether we were going to keep him, which I declined, actually thought maybe we 

[00:00:51] Dan: such a shame. That's a disappointment, but anyway, understandable.

[00:00:55] Pia: But it's going really well. And it, it is really interesting because we've got all these teams of people working around us to enable this to happen, you know, remove lists, estate agents, conveyances. We had to do tests, and it's really interesting to experience how they put you either at the center of that experience to make an easy one or there's little things that are, that are niggling and, and make that experience, uh, you know, a difficult one and just sort of take the edge off it.

[00:01:29] Dan: And it's a of lovely segue of course, into the today's show because we're going to be talking to Stewart DL. He's a, um, he really knows his onions about teams and, um, he spent his career actually really helping organizations to deeply understand life from the point of view of the, of their own customers. You know, I met him Pia long time ago. and he, what he did with us in, in the organization I was in was helped to create this customer centric culture, which for a start rocketed us from fourth to first market share. But just as importantly, helped all of our teams to be. Just have a real sense of purpose and meaning to go into work every day to serve our customers. And it was a, it was a wonderful thing. So we had to get him on the show. So let's head over and, and, uh, and hear the interview now.

[00:02:16] Stuart is an absolute delight to have you on we, not me. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:02:23] Stuart: Fantastic to be with you, Dan and pair. 

[00:02:26] Pia: we are excited to have you to Stu it's going to be fun.

[00:02:29] Dan: Why didn't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, steward, how you came to be in this place now. 

[00:02:34] Stuart: Oh yes. It's a. I've been in this area for the last 25 years, Dan. Which I always think when you say something like that just makes it sound like you're just old.

[00:02:44] Dan: And you don't just old,

[00:02:47] Pia: not asked you. But which area have you been in for 25 years? 

[00:02:51] Stuart: Yeah. So now I started out in I was what they used to call the classical. FMCG background of sales and marketing and all that good stuff. And then spend a lot of time in marketing and then just got more and more interested in in really the customer side. And back in the nineties managed to get myself over to a conference in, on customer service, as it was called and much before it got called customer experience. And then really have devoted my time until then, and just been great to. Work across the globe with all sorts of organizations, helping them to really be fantastic with their customers. 

[00:03:26] Dan: The customer, obviously it's important, but what are we talking about when we talk customer centricity? What are we talking about? 

[00:03:32] Stuart: Well, There's all these sorts of terms that have come up in this arena and customer centricity is one. I think that's becoming back in F flow, but more interest now. But so when we say customer centricity, it's, I go back to, first of all, Peter Drucker, good old Peter Drucker. He's always good for good, for a quote. And he said the sole purpose of a business was to create and keep a customer which just reminds us of the simplicity of business and everything is just centered around. But if you expand on that, what you find is that being customer centric is more about, more than just offering a good product or a good staffing in a contact center. It's what, what is about as an organization, that's cultural way of life in the company impacts everything from customer, from employee engagement, to customer experience and customer centric companies, basically, they just live and breathe their customers and they're laser focused on prevent providing amazing experiences all the way through the customer's experience. Yeah so where a lot of companies struggle is to actually deliver that great experience across every touch point and every interaction the company has.

[00:04:43] And I was talking to a client of mine last week and they were saying to me how their customers a dentist. And how those, they have one of their biggest complaints at the moment, criticisms is changing the address of a customer. As simple as that, but It's a tiny thing, but it's one thing, not for the customer. It's a big thing. So all of those key interactions as a customer centric companies have really worked.

[00:05:12] Pia: So we've all had you have those absolute moments of gold when you have. Amazing custom customer, and it really impacts you as a human. And then you have really terrible experiences that, are, feeling markedly traumatic because you just dig over them and just feel just, I think, feel so disrespected sometimes in a moment when you think you should be the center of everything.

[00:05:38] So how's, it has this changed over time. Have we. More customer centric because our businesses have just got crazier and busier and a, it's a bit of a pot hole. Isn't it? You could become internally focused extent of customer focused. So what's happened over time from your view.

[00:05:57] Stuart: it is changing. there's no doubt that we all know about the impacts of of the pandemic. And that I do think is affecting people's evaluation of the customer centricity. So just to quote you a couple of things, it has to be right, because 32% of purchases now are online, which is pretty staggering. If you think about it, it wasn't long ago that we were still talking about retail versus online, yes. But online is still a small part of the market. And that's expected to go to 37% after the pandemic is over. So 60% of people's income has been affected most likely negatively. So people have revamped re-evaluated what they're purchasing, who they're purchasing it from. And we're less tolerant. I think that's what COVID has done is just led to customers being more willing to shop around.

[00:06:51] One of the things that is part of customer centricity is which has got lot of favor. And I agree with it is this idea of ease, making things easy for customers. I forget who it was that came up with a measure called the customer effort score. And I think I actually is a brilliant measure and I think it will become more relevant now in in the COVID world. Unfortunately only 20% of custom. I actually think that the companies they buy from are customer centric, which is unfortunate. 

[00:07:23] Dan: Clearly this is a big issue, Stuart and getting, not getting any easier for everyone. Not probably not going to easier for organizations, but you know, we're about teams here. What, what role can teams play in making this work better for the customer, but also for the organizations that are trying to serve them? 

[00:07:40] Stuart: Yeah I'd go as far as to say Dan that if you aren't customer, you cannot be customer centric. If you don't have mutual understanding across the teams in organizations, they don't have an a, if there isn't an appreciation of each other's roles that teams or the different roles that they're playing.

[00:07:59] And effectively an organization, however big it is working as one large team, you can't be customer centric. And unfortunately the natural state of an organization, because of the way it gets structured is not very TIMI. Unfortunately we have silos in place and what was it? Was it Charles handy? You said organizations for massive. They we turn in on ourselves. The natural state, I say to many people is to be and customer centric and teams is the way to, to to get through that.

[00:08:31] And I think of all the best examples I can think of real customer centricity sort and knock your socks off experiences have been to do with teams, people working together, working closely together, cleverly together. In the UK here we have uh, Pret a Monger, and I was in one on Saturday and it was fantastic to see how it just, it's a coffee shop. It's a sandwich shop, but you had six or so people behind the counter just beautifully working as one. No division of roles, no hesitation to actually tell each other what needed to be done. People checking on each other checking that they followed through. If they hadn't done picking it up to what the customer needed, it was beautiful.

[00:09:15] Dan: Stuart, I'm so glad you mentioned Pret because that's one of my favorite places. And often I'm, I'm observing them through sort of through your lens, actually having worked with you. I often stand there and waiting for my coffee uh, and, and observe. So I'm really glad that it's one of your favorites as well. 

[00:09:30] Stuart: And one of my personal favorites, which was, I. had the the pleasure of many years ago of staying in a Mandarin Oriental in Singapore at the expense of my client, which was I hasten to add. And I I remember walking out of the lift and walking down a corridor towards my bedroom and one of the staff, I'm sure they don't call them staff greeting me and knowing who I was.

[00:09:59] And I, to this day, I still, I know it would be something to do with teams. I know it would be something to do with somebody somewhere else, sharing that information. But to this day, I still think, how did they know it was me at that particular moment on that particular floor. There you go. So all of the standouts are about teams and the opposite of course is we've all had these experiences, So the opposite is the case where people have not coordinated. Market the marketing team runs a great campaign that, that generates all these demands. And then we ring up the call center and we can't get through all the calls or all the lines are busy because nobody's told the call center there's going to be increased demand. It just follows through, for me all the time, the best examples are people working together, closely understanding what they do. And the opposite is where the experiences are, are on customer centric.

[00:10:55] Pia: Because we're are a socially connected ecosystem. We tell each other all about it, you know? so I noticed yesterday, one of our listeners, Sophie put up a post on LinkedIn which was a response to her. Cafe bar where she'd been poorly served by one of the, one of the newer guys in this cafe. And she had given specific feedback not to belittling, but actually taking the time to write, to give a customer, to give her a customer experience. That the letter that she got back, which was absolutely fabulous. Kumble accepting practical. Really putting her at the center really acknowledging her feedback, she posted that on LinkedIn. Oh boy. Imagine if that had been a different experience. I think Dan and I both were humming along to wasn't it United that the made up the song about the, about their poor, the poor experience, the guy sitting on the tarmac. And that's what happens is that our experiences are viral. So it really matters. Th this, it isn't just a grumble because my coffee's late and a bit cold. We start telling people and that can have a material impact on the business. 

[00:12:14] Stuart: Very much. So there is there, there's still all the old organization that when you asked the question, how many people does a disgruntled customer tell they're still quoting of a statistic from 15, 20 years ago? One in 10, you can't put a figure on it. Now I know there's a organization in the states called.

[00:12:34] That last measured it, and this was many years ago. And even then they were saying it was two and a half thousand, but frankly, if you want to tell, if you want to tell the world you can now. I don't think that's got as much traction as you'd think it would have still with organizations, but definitely it has that it does have that impact.

[00:12:50] The other thing that that this also talks to is when we say about the role of teams the there's a part of the team in an organization, which has to be involved in all of the work around the customer. And that's the front line. Cause the front line is often the person who's told by the customer of these things.

[00:13:07] So that's another bit of where the team comes in. They have to be present really everywhere because all too often, what I see is organizations. Invest a lot in customer insight. But the one thing we often forget that? we were hearing from customers each and every day, and that's for the people who are speaking to customers on the front line, whether that's sales folks or retail staff, or chat online, it really doesn't matter, but they're talking to customers all day, so they have a huge part play, which I also think we'll talk a little bit more about, 

[00:13:40] I guess I'll give you an example on that one, another one. I was doing some cool listening in an organization that provides the emergency pendants for primarily elderly folk, but people in need of care. And I was listening into a call and this customers, this elderly lady said to the to the advisor I've got the man's pendant. You've given me a man's pendant. To cut a long story short, there is no such thing as a man's plan. 

[00:14:05] Pia: Was it shaped like a medallion and sort of, and had ribbon on it or something like that? Was it.

[00:14:10] Stuart: somebody who seven medallion who knows, but I was fascinated because I spoke to the advisor afterwards and I said, wow, is that's that was a bit weird. Isn't it do it? Do we have men's benders? That's when I learned that they don't and I said, so then I said, do you hear that one often?

[00:14:25] And I said, oh, Have you ever mentioned it to anybody? No. No. So there's all this information that's coming to organizations every day, but but it's just, they're not, they're missing a trick in in capturing that.

[00:14:38] Pia: And what I'm saying, what's interesting is we're seeing, we think we're in teams, but we're offering groups of individuals and they've got individual KPIs often around the customer as a specific metric. And it becomes almost competitive to meet those individual metrics and without having a shared goal, then the customer ends up suffering. You can feel like you're you're in the middle of, my mother proverbial Parana tank, because you're being pooled, the customer's being pulled in different directions and not feeling like they're having a seamless experience as the customer wants from the product that they have bought. And that's a real challenge.

[00:15:22] So, I would imagine then, to get that shared goal of put that customer centricity as a mindset, a behavior, and there's a metric right in the heart of the team. Is that unique?

[00:15:35] Stuart: So you're absolutely right there and it is a big part of it to have those aligned goals. And am I seeing a lot of it? I've seen some of it, but I, but sadly I think not enough for uh, for organizations who want to be customer centric breaking away from that, I had another example the other day where we were working with a software organization and you have the sales. This is quite a classical one. I think we've probably all been on the receiving of this end of this one. So you've got sales and then you have implementation. So when the sale is made implementation, get involved, how do we actually deliver what's been sold and then you have support and it support who speak to the. customer later.

[00:16:17] And those three functions never taught. And never had, and some of that was to do with goals, it wasn't just goals. It's about time. It's about but I need to go and spend time with those other folks in this busy world. So is that really important? Do I need to do that so that it doesn't happen for that reason, but when they did it was astonishing, and they've in fact, agree, this team has agreed now all they need to do.

[00:16:45] Support attends the implementation meetings and they can actually understand what's actually been sold a bit better and they can also have a bit of a say to say wait a minute, you need to just take account of these factors of what we can and can't do so there you have three functions who very rarely come together off. And now they know what each other do. And this is something we find we, we found it always happens. Always happens if you get those cross-functional teams together and they talk about what they do, it's guaranteed that somebody that they'll all say at some stage, oh, that's what happens. Oh, that's interesting. I, oh, I didn't know that. So it's it. They love it. They actually love it. If they do it, they've just got to invest the time. And B be allowed, I guess, just be given the permission to be able to do that sort of thing.

[00:17:38] Dan: If we, if we zoom out from the team for a minute and how can organizations maybe top teams Start to create this for them? Whole structure. You talked about the importance of frontline, but how, how would you go about that from an organizational standpoint?

[00:17:52] Stuart: Well, It's got to come from the top first down and we call it actually top down, led bottom up, created. I had occasion some years ago, I was dealing with Tesco and some years later I was selling to Tescos. I was managing that account. In in about the late iron age. And and I went back there to do some work with them some decades later, I remember walking through their head office in chess and at the time being very nervous, trepidatious, if that's another word that going in there, but they completely changed. And at the time, so Terry Lee, which, who really had transformed Tesco, he spent three days in store. So he based himself three days a week in stores, so he could be close to customers, he could be close to the front line, and so it starts there. And so they are tuned in to listening to that front line, which we've talked about already. And that's where it, that's where it begins. 

[00:18:50] And then we move on to, how do we actually also not just hear directly from the frontline, but how do we also get the voice of the customer into the organization? So I mentioned that most organizations have some customer insight team now, but that, that information has got to get through to everybody on a. regular basis, so they, they are hearing what the customer is saying to them and how their work relates to that. Some organizations have actually blurred the notion that there is a divide between themselves and the customer they operate in a way where the customer is really just a natural extension of their team, that they are part of the team. So there's there's a couple of things.

[00:19:28] And I think the other bit is then of course, as we know, with all great teams, they have a clear vision, they have a clear set of values and expectations. And and again, all the great customer centric companies have done that, but done it really well. They have visions or purposes that really resonate with their people. Tony and Shea, who was running a, for founded Zappos in the states and he consulted with everybody in the organizations about what their values should be.

[00:19:58] Dan: so it's in it's, top-down led, as you say, w what, what can a team do anyone listening to, to the podcast today they're running a frontline team. What can they do to start to play an active role in this? Where would it, where would you suggest they start Stuart?

[00:20:15] Stuart: I think any team, the way to first start is we've got the top down led and the bottom up created one of. Principles is then to start really moving from thinking about customers, to thinking like customers and what we mean by that is that, that actually it's interesting that it's not, the companies are not thinking about their customers, they are an awful lot. They talk about them all the time, but it's the way they talk about them, and and the way they think about them. So what a team needs to do is to start to think like their customers. And so what that typically involves is getting their teams together, getting other people who we've already touched on getting other people that they interact with from within the organization together, anybody that they are synchronous with and starting to spend time to really look at the customer experience from start to end, that's become quite.

[00:21:11] A well-known approach called customer journey mapping and really get into the detail of what it's like to be a customer, but there's some nuances I'd, I'd give here. So what a team needs to do is start to think about not just when they touch the customer. Cause that's that again, there's been a good concept, a good approach in customer centricity that touches moments of truth, which was coined by yang Colson 30 years ago, Scandinavian airlines, but there's w we have a thing called thought points. And so that's really, what is the customer thinking and feeling. And if you start to get into that and you start to map it in detail real detail, start to map what the customer. In between the moments when they're in contact with you, you start to build a real rich picture of what the customer experience is like. And what you'll find is there's stuff that you do well, and there's stuff that you don't do so well. And so you start to identify those things. So it starts with that way of looking at the experience.

[00:22:16] Dan: I must say having use this, this approach, it was fascinating to me to realize. It was sort of obvious when you think about it, but the journey of a customer is an emotional one. The touch points are minimal. Actually, most of it is, is going on in your head away from away from any interaction at all. So that was a really surprising thing. I think teams can, if, to me thinking in that way could be a really useful one. And as you say, thinking like the customer, not just about them. 

[00:22:44] Stuart: Yeah. We've been doing work recently with social housing and applying that, helping them to apply that approach. And of course it's a lot of it also happens before you even start to touch the customer. So your start to search for property and, and uh, Do you, have you ever dealt with social housing before? Do you know how it works? Do you know where to go? Do you know what who to contact, who else is involved? And so when you start to map that out, you realize and I know it sounds simplistic, but it starts to become really quite obvious. Some of the things that you could do for customers to make their lives better. So, Yes, we call it also the white space. That's the bit between the touch points. That's the stuff it's, what's the customer doing? You can't see them doing, but it affects their experience.

[00:23:31] Pia: And I think I, I just thought of two examples while you had, while you were saying that Stu and I think you've used. I'm stealing your thunder here, but I think you, you talk about taking things from a tragic experience to a magic experience. And if I if I can articulate that my partner telephone carrier said that it would be offline, why some work was being done for two weeks. And here we are three months later and she's not been able to make a telephone call. That's pretty tragic. And then on the other side of things then I think of probably the most magical experience, which I think you probably know is going to Disneyland the absolute care and attention to making every touch point and thought point to the element where my kids remember it such a visceral experience going there because so much attention was put into that whole experience.

[00:24:32] But there must be things that we are doing inadvertently as a tragic that we can turn around to become a magic. I'm pretty sure that teams together could get some quick fixes here.

[00:24:45] Stuart: So back in 1998, when I first went off to the worldwide customer service conference, you can imagine it's very Disney, isn't it tragic and magic. I remember they might've mentioned something there and it stuck, and actually Dan shout out to when we work together, I remember you called it tragic to magic, that was the brand for a T2. And which was which was which was a great way of a great way of looking at it. And to your point, peer, that what you find is when you look at it this way with this level of detail looking at the thought points, looking at the white space, mapping it all out.

[00:25:16] Invariably, what you do find is the things you can do are high-impact. And low effort. Most of them are actually. And and again, an unfortunate thing I do see is organizations are often putting in place things which might be great ideas, but they're difficult, they're expensive and they're not going to be there for several years.

[00:25:39] So the customer's not going to feel anything different at the moment. That's a great question. I pose to people all the time is ask yourself, whenever you are. When is the customer going to feel it? And what are they going to feel differently? The old again to can show my age, Tom Peters remembered seeing in search of excellence and, one of the things he said was, we do 10 times better, but 10 times. That's what a lot of customer experience work is I think can end up if you're not careful customer doesn't feel anything particularly different.

[00:26:11] I was I was, I remember going there with my family and I'd been to this conference. I'd had this strange experience of going to the conference on my own, but staying in a Disney resort, so I learned about some of the things that Disney do. And when I went there with my family, a few years later, I was told off my wife. She said, you're not here on work to actually observe all the Disney things. Cause I was caught by my wife, pacing out the distance between the wastepaper bins, the big bins that they have in the the theme parks. She said, what are you doing? I said, what I remember, and I never got to check this out a couple of few years ago. That they've measured the distance between them, the optimum distance, so that people don't drip drop litter, because they've learned that nobody ever looks behind them, they only look ahead.

[00:26:55] Dan: stuart, you have left us with some lovely stories, but, but more importantly, some inspiration, I think for, for, for teams to really crank up this part of their work and speaking personally You know, I know that this can really bring meaning and value to work. So I'm really hoping any teams out there can take something away and, and apply it to their own work, whatever they do. So thank you so much for joining us today, Stuart.

[00:27:18] Stuart: My absolute pleasure. Happy to be with you. 

[00:27:21] Dan: Stuart was as ever full of practical examples and these experiences sort of brimming over his knee. And it just, just jumped out at me this challenge, actually for organizations here that it's gotta be connected all the way through. It's it can't be reliant on anyone. So, you know, teams really are at the center of this, but the whole organization has to connect in order to deliver these experience.

[00:27:48] Pia: 100%, it's a bit like, you know, The Swiss layer cake sort of thought and imagery there, it, you know, when you cut it, it's got to look the same all the way through. Um, so that top down that, that, that bottom up, you know, to me, it's, it's gotta be omnipresent. It's gotta be such a cultural strength and such a commitment. Otherwise it just feels like a token. Teams that set themselves apart, make this a shared common goal because the organization may be pulling them apart by measuring them by individual KPIs. So inadvertently the organization is creating a less country customer centric behaviors, so customer centric, financial goal, but it's the behavior. Could then pull it apart. So what's the team got to do to really sit down and go, let's be committed to this. What do we see as the overall customer experience that we want them to have? And I think that would be incredibly powerful. 

[00:28:53] Dan: Absolutely. And I've seen this in my own work in the corporate world where we had customer metrics in everyone's, in everyone's objectives. So everyone was really aligned around that. And to be honest, it was sort of a bit challenging at times there was an accounts receivable, Clark. I remember he said, you know, how can I, you know, you got me to affect the customer experience? Yeah, you can. And it just prompted so many great conversations with. No, actually we are, we can all affect that. So there, there are some really good ways of aligning that weaving within a team to make sure that as you say that we're not pulling apart.

[00:29:26] Pia: And that's really important too, because I think the myth is this is a sales thing and it's not, it's an organizational and it's the team of teams. It's having this as the core DNA of every single person's role is instrumental into creating that, that customer experience and thinking like not about which is the mindset which strikes me that you've got to take it seriously. It's a lot of detail gotta you gotta, you gotta really focus on this.

[00:29:59] Dan: I think the mindset is essential inside teams. The other thing I've seen is that, you know, we've talked a lot about the conditions for success in teams, clarity, climate, and competence. As you say, you need all of those. It's very easy to say, oh, that person at the front line, they are really good at customer service. If they, if they don't know. The other, those other conditions in their team, the clarity of the goal, the, you know, the processes and the culture there, their behaviors just aren't going to shine through in the end. So it's really essential for teams to, to build all of those conditions, everything you need to, to, to be focused on that customer.

[00:30:33] And as you say, the detail, I think this is, uh, this is a fascinating point and, you know, we've worked in this way, peer ourselves, haven't we to sort of look at that. As Stuart said, yeah, look at the touch points, but what are the thought points what's going on in the mind of the customer and to really empathize with that as well?

[00:30:53] I think that's the other thing is, is it's a, it's a practice. I think that teams can get into. And we're not. What I've seen is that people, teams will sort of state where, what do our customers, what are customers thinking at this point or feeling sometimes the question, the answers don't come. But if you keep asking the question and keep exploring it together, you really get a full picture of that psychological journey that the customer is going through and you can really empathize with them in order to do something different to serve them. And I think that is really at the heart. It's, it's pretty, it's pretty exciting shift actually, rather than just seeing a process, seeing, uh, what the, you know, that psychological journey.

[00:31:30] Pia: Yeah, and I think that's such a, such a key point. It's not sympathetic. Feeling, sorry for them. It's empathetic understanding them. And actually that will be key to your competitive advantage because you'll be able to really almost predetermined what some of those friction points may be and to take them out before they actually happen. So that in this, in this world, that will make a huge difference. 

[00:31:57] Dan: And, next week we're actually building on this theme in a, in, in some way, because, we're going to be taking a look at diversity aren't we pair with, um, with the hero, our special guest.

[00:32:06] Pia: and so here is, set up a, a worldwide female mentoring organization and has. had an interesting journey. So I think this is going to be quite a special conversation. I think one that actually will get all of us to think a little bit about how we embrace it, and bring all those diverse parts to a more meaningful. 

[00:32:28] Dan: Really looking forward to it. So that's it. For this episode, you can find show notes and resources at Squadify dot net. Just click on the we, not me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Um, we, not me. It's produced by Mark Steadman of origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:32:47] Pia: And It's goodbye from me.