WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:01.120 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us. 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:03.230 Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free. 00:00:03.410 --> 00:00:06.810 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.389 The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home. 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:13.089 Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:14.989 audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.949 I have a request. 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.750 If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up, 00:00:19.799 --> 00:00:22.380 like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.910 It really, really helps us to make the pro. 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.930 To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries, 00:00:29.435 --> 00:00:33.325 books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com. 00:00:34.894 --> 00:00:36.125 So now let's jump in. 00:00:37.107 --> 00:00:39.537 Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free. 00:00:39.657 --> 00:00:45.387 The process of self-actualization takes many forms and I am 00:00:45.387 --> 00:00:47.917 happy to have Beverly Cain, Dr. 00:00:47.917 --> 00:00:52.467 Beverly Cain from the University of Stanford, and she's also a doctor 00:00:52.467 --> 00:00:56.547 and she's also a equine practitioner and she's also many things. 00:00:57.177 --> 00:00:58.827 And she didn't start that way. 00:00:59.887 --> 00:01:06.727 She came to California with 35 bucks in her pocket and living on her wits and 00:01:06.727 --> 00:01:10.507 somehow ended up a professor of medicine at Stanford as well as other things. 00:01:10.747 --> 00:01:14.467 So I think that is definitely a life story we need to hear. 00:01:14.467 --> 00:01:18.547 And then a present day, what on earth are you up to with these amazing life 00:01:18.547 --> 00:01:20.497 skills that have brought you this far? 00:01:20.677 --> 00:01:23.547 So, stand by my friends for doctor. 00:01:23.952 --> 00:01:27.402 Beverly Cain, thank you so much for coming on the show. 00:01:27.942 --> 00:01:29.982 Please tell us who you are and what you do. 00:01:31.512 --> 00:01:31.513 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:01:31.512 --> 00:01:32.382 Thank you, Rupert. 00:01:32.492 --> 00:01:36.512 We have a little bit of a history and it's, it's so nice to be on your program. 00:01:37.682 --> 00:01:41.492 So as you said, I came out with $35. 00:01:41.552 --> 00:01:43.412 I actually hitchhiked out here. 00:01:43.472 --> 00:01:44.762 Rupert Isaacson: Where from, where did you start? 00:01:44.812 --> 00:01:44.813 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:01:44.812 --> 00:01:47.932 I was based on the east coast basically in New York. 00:01:48.032 --> 00:01:53.832 I had been doing, at the time I was doing a lot of anti-war activism that 00:01:53.832 --> 00:01:56.232 it was the time of the Vietnam War. 00:01:56.832 --> 00:02:00.472 So I was very active in the effort to end that war. 00:02:01.012 --> 00:02:02.752 And I, I hitchhiked out here. 00:02:02.752 --> 00:02:07.912 My, my boyfriend was out here and I had $35 and I had the 00:02:07.912 --> 00:02:10.072 resources to stay for two weeks. 00:02:10.987 --> 00:02:15.187 That was, I think 55 years ago, about 1972. 00:02:16.387 --> 00:02:22.477 And what happened is while I was out here, I got really sick 00:02:23.437 --> 00:02:25.687 and I ended up in the hospital 00:02:26.227 --> 00:02:26.977 Rupert Isaacson: I had gone to. 00:02:27.337 --> 00:02:27.627 What did you stick with? 00:02:27.627 --> 00:02:27.847 What did you get? 00:02:28.637 --> 00:02:28.638 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:02:28.637 --> 00:02:31.787 I had an ovarian abscess. 00:02:32.087 --> 00:02:35.867 I had, yeah, I was very, I had a fever of 103. 00:02:35.867 --> 00:02:36.527 And so how old were 00:02:36.527 --> 00:02:37.307 Rupert Isaacson: you at this point? 00:02:37.907 --> 00:02:37.908 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:02:37.907 --> 00:02:39.797 I was about 21. 00:02:39.947 --> 00:02:40.307 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:02:40.307 --> 00:02:41.177 Really young for that. 00:02:42.047 --> 00:02:42.048 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:02:42.047 --> 00:02:42.407 Okay. 00:02:42.407 --> 00:02:42.827 20 20, 21. 00:02:42.827 --> 00:02:43.217 Yeah. 00:02:43.847 --> 00:02:46.517 And so I went to the Berkeley free Clinic with a temp of 00:02:46.517 --> 00:02:49.607 103, ended up in the hospital. 00:02:50.387 --> 00:02:55.967 And when I got out of the hospital, I wanted to repay the kindness 00:02:55.967 --> 00:02:57.197 of the Berkeley Free Clinic. 00:02:57.197 --> 00:03:02.447 So I became a volunteer, and then I was in their paramedic program, which 00:03:02.452 --> 00:03:07.127 isn't the, as we think of paramedics, it's more kind of a barefoot doctor. 00:03:07.307 --> 00:03:10.967 It's not the people that ride in ambulances and 00:03:10.967 --> 00:03:12.017 through one thing in another. 00:03:12.017 --> 00:03:12.827 I went back to school. 00:03:12.827 --> 00:03:14.987 I had dropped out of, of college. 00:03:15.347 --> 00:03:16.487 Dropped outta school. 00:03:16.857 --> 00:03:17.727 I went to, 00:03:17.757 --> 00:03:19.377 Rupert Isaacson: where were you at school and what were you doing? 00:03:20.277 --> 00:03:20.278 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:03:20.277 --> 00:03:25.137 I was at, when I dropped out, well, I dropped out of Columbia University. 00:03:26.037 --> 00:03:26.097 Okay. 00:03:26.097 --> 00:03:29.397 Initially during that anti-war effort. 00:03:29.487 --> 00:03:29.877 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:03:30.357 --> 00:03:30.358 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:03:30.357 --> 00:03:32.127 And so based on the East Coast. 00:03:32.337 --> 00:03:32.757 And what had you 00:03:32.757 --> 00:03:33.417 Rupert Isaacson: been studying? 00:03:35.307 --> 00:03:35.308 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:03:35.307 --> 00:03:35.787 Well, I. 00:03:36.207 --> 00:03:41.097 Started out thinking about medicine, but the chemistry, the couple that 00:03:41.127 --> 00:03:46.167 taught chemistry were just these old bitties that made it so uninteresting 00:03:46.707 --> 00:03:54.527 that I, I minored in art history and art and took Chinese, actually Chinese. 00:03:54.527 --> 00:03:58.917 So you a poly brush painting a little checkered past pa 00:03:58.977 --> 00:04:01.557 polymath, both in two ways. 00:04:01.857 --> 00:04:02.187 Get, okay. 00:04:02.192 --> 00:04:02.282 Okay. 00:04:02.287 --> 00:04:04.347 So you drop out of much into history of art 00:04:04.347 --> 00:04:11.307 Rupert Isaacson: and Chinese and, and hitchhike to be an anti-war protestor in 00:04:11.307 --> 00:04:18.267 Berkeley and then get sick and then get healed at the free clinic in Berkeley so 00:04:18.267 --> 00:04:22.707 you don't end up in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt which can happen. 00:04:22.707 --> 00:04:25.827 Of course, everyone gets sick in America as a young person with no insurance. 00:04:26.427 --> 00:04:30.177 And then you decide you want to volunteer for them to repay the kindness, 00:04:31.167 --> 00:04:31.168 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:04:31.167 --> 00:04:31.587 right? 00:04:31.647 --> 00:04:32.172 And then I got. 00:04:32.907 --> 00:04:38.187 A little bit more serious about it and ended up in medical school. 00:04:38.727 --> 00:04:38.757 Okay. 00:04:38.757 --> 00:04:45.107 Just I, I was a little bit ambivalent about going to medical school, but it, 00:04:45.167 --> 00:04:52.667 the time had come and I was actually interviewed by a man who went on to 00:04:52.667 --> 00:04:54.797 win the Nobel Prize in biochemistry. 00:04:54.857 --> 00:04:55.547 Great guy. 00:04:55.552 --> 00:04:55.872 Who was that? 00:04:56.057 --> 00:04:57.447 Who I did Michael Bishop. 00:04:59.037 --> 00:05:01.857 I think he, I am not sure what year he won the Nobel Prize. 00:05:01.857 --> 00:05:04.527 It was probably 20 years after my, okay. 00:05:04.577 --> 00:05:06.497 Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna Google him quickly while you talk. 00:05:06.497 --> 00:05:06.977 Okay. 00:05:07.457 --> 00:05:07.458 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:05:07.457 --> 00:05:07.727 Yeah. 00:05:07.727 --> 00:05:09.077 I think he's still alive. 00:05:09.257 --> 00:05:09.977 Rupert Isaacson: Michael Bishop? 00:05:10.027 --> 00:05:10.028 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:05:10.027 --> 00:05:10.957 Michael Bishop. 00:05:11.197 --> 00:05:11.737 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:05:12.187 --> 00:05:12.188 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:05:12.187 --> 00:05:12.727 So, 00:05:12.787 --> 00:05:13.867 Rupert Isaacson: and that was at which school? 00:05:14.287 --> 00:05:14.288 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:05:14.287 --> 00:05:17.677 That was at UCSF, university of California. 00:05:17.677 --> 00:05:18.397 San Francisco. 00:05:18.427 --> 00:05:18.907 Okay. 00:05:19.867 --> 00:05:20.077 Yeah. 00:05:20.077 --> 00:05:20.767 Very good school. 00:05:20.767 --> 00:05:22.897 And I, I stayed with them. 00:05:24.787 --> 00:05:26.107 I had done a lot of. 00:05:27.302 --> 00:05:33.242 My medical school work, I did an, a residency in family medicine, and 00:05:33.242 --> 00:05:35.972 then I did a fellowship in ob, GYN. 00:05:36.307 --> 00:05:36.597 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:05:37.622 --> 00:05:37.623 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:05:37.622 --> 00:05:41.402 And a fellow and a fellowship in sports medicine in London. 00:05:41.522 --> 00:05:42.842 At the London Hospital. 00:05:42.902 --> 00:05:43.952 Rupert Isaacson: And why did you go to London? 00:05:45.062 --> 00:05:45.063 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:05:45.062 --> 00:05:50.942 Because there were very few, if any, sports medicine programs 00:05:50.942 --> 00:05:53.882 for non-orthopedic surgeons. 00:05:53.882 --> 00:05:59.447 There was a, a famous sports medicine program at the, at Cleveland. 00:05:59.447 --> 00:06:03.707 I, I guess that would be case Western in Cleveland, but for orthopedic surgeons. 00:06:04.007 --> 00:06:04.037 Okay. 00:06:04.097 --> 00:06:10.307 But this fellowship in London was for general practitioners 00:06:10.307 --> 00:06:11.627 and family medicine people. 00:06:11.627 --> 00:06:14.927 There were two people from Australia, one from New Zealand, 00:06:14.927 --> 00:06:16.847 one from Sudan and myself. 00:06:17.177 --> 00:06:18.707 It was a wonderful, wonderful program. 00:06:18.707 --> 00:06:22.187 We went all over the UK to various clinics. 00:06:23.372 --> 00:06:28.172 And when I came back, I went into the practice of sports 00:06:28.172 --> 00:06:29.462 medicine for a while and why 00:06:29.462 --> 00:06:31.862 Rupert Isaacson: sports medicine, if you'd started with oh, women's 00:06:31.862 --> 00:06:33.632 medicine, ob, GYN and so on. 00:06:33.632 --> 00:06:36.782 And that's what's the jump across from there. 00:06:40.262 --> 00:06:40.263 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:06:40.262 --> 00:06:45.782 I did the OB GYN fellowship because I thought I was going to go up to 00:06:45.782 --> 00:06:50.492 Alaska and deliver babies and, and actually even do cesarean sections. 00:06:50.732 --> 00:06:51.182 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:06:51.182 --> 00:06:55.802 And in American community, sorry, in Native American communities. 00:06:55.802 --> 00:06:56.492 Was that the idea? 00:06:56.542 --> 00:06:56.543 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:06:56.542 --> 00:07:01.762 Yeah, and I ended up living for, in Alaska four year and doing a lot of 00:07:02.882 --> 00:07:04.862 medicine at Native American clinics. 00:07:05.192 --> 00:07:10.832 But I, I was in no way prepared to do cesarean sections at that time, you 00:07:10.832 --> 00:07:17.762 know, by myself or and I was really at, in the dead of winter in Alaska. 00:07:18.782 --> 00:07:24.722 I read a book that was absolutely life changing, and it was by Michael Murphy, 00:07:24.722 --> 00:07:29.222 who's one of the founders of the Esson Institute here in Central California. 00:07:30.242 --> 00:07:36.632 And it was called Jacob Abit, and it was sort of a novel version of his later 00:07:36.632 --> 00:07:39.272 huge book called The Future of the Body. 00:07:39.812 --> 00:07:44.372 And it was about human potentials in a somatic sense. 00:07:45.002 --> 00:07:49.052 Not just the mind, but what the body would be capable of at, at the time. 00:07:49.052 --> 00:07:54.732 I think the, the one mile, the limit was a four minute mile. 00:07:54.882 --> 00:07:54.972 Mm-hmm. 00:07:55.212 --> 00:07:57.372 By, I, I think a British guy actually. 00:07:58.032 --> 00:07:58.302 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:07:58.302 --> 00:07:59.682 And that stood for decades. 00:08:00.222 --> 00:08:00.223 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:08:00.222 --> 00:08:00.732 Yeah. 00:08:00.912 --> 00:08:02.832 And I don't know that it's been broken yet. 00:08:03.127 --> 00:08:07.247 Roger and Roger Roger's, somebody I think from, from UK. 00:08:09.017 --> 00:08:14.207 And I, I had just been always very, very athletic, very about the body. 00:08:14.207 --> 00:08:20.177 And this will relate later, hopefully to how I got into horses and how I 00:08:20.177 --> 00:08:22.217 relate to, okay, so sports medicine. 00:08:22.217 --> 00:08:23.447 So you, okay, got it. 00:08:23.627 --> 00:08:25.697 So through that, but I'm just looking at Michael 00:08:25.697 --> 00:08:26.117 Rupert Isaacson: Bishop. 00:08:26.177 --> 00:08:26.927 That is amazing. 00:08:26.927 --> 00:08:32.697 He's best known for his Nobel winning work on retroviral basically oncology. 00:08:33.027 --> 00:08:38.907 He was the first bloke to find out how malignant tumors are formed from 00:08:39.177 --> 00:08:41.097 changes in the normal genes of a cell. 00:08:41.097 --> 00:08:43.377 And it's funny, we take that for granted now, don't we? 00:08:43.707 --> 00:08:47.817 But I guess back in the eighties that wasn't so well known, so. 00:08:48.417 --> 00:08:51.747 Lucky you have someone like that to mentor you, so you Well, 00:08:51.972 --> 00:08:51.973 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:08:51.972 --> 00:08:52.262 yeah. 00:08:52.322 --> 00:08:54.367 He, he, he actually didn't mentor me. 00:08:54.367 --> 00:08:58.357 He interviewed me for medical school admission and he was the greatest guy. 00:08:58.357 --> 00:09:03.277 I remember our conversation like it was yesterday and it was 1974. 00:09:03.337 --> 00:09:03.907 Rupert Isaacson: What did he say? 00:09:03.907 --> 00:09:05.077 What stands out in the memory? 00:09:06.217 --> 00:09:06.218 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:09:06.217 --> 00:09:17.137 So he told me that one has to be really careful how we look at announcements of 00:09:17.137 --> 00:09:25.867 medical breakthroughs and whether they're made in the public press in the news. 00:09:26.277 --> 00:09:29.247 He was very good friends with the science writer for the San Francisco 00:09:29.247 --> 00:09:32.187 Chronicle at the time, and that that name escapes me and that I know 00:09:32.187 --> 00:09:34.047 that person has since passed away. 00:09:34.617 --> 00:09:35.037 But. 00:09:36.252 --> 00:09:41.322 If you're looking at medical breakthroughs that are announced by the people who 00:09:41.322 --> 00:09:44.772 made them the researchers, you have to be take it with a grain of salt 00:09:45.312 --> 00:09:50.262 because they're going to inflate their findings and their importance. 00:09:50.652 --> 00:09:50.712 Yeah. 00:09:50.712 --> 00:09:58.962 And one should trust more the reporting in the scientific press for accuracy 00:09:59.112 --> 00:10:01.812 and context of any medical breakthrough. 00:10:02.312 --> 00:10:04.982 I don't think that's an issue now with everything we're getting on the 00:10:04.982 --> 00:10:10.532 internet, but in the pre-internet days, there was a lot of self-aggrandizement 00:10:10.982 --> 00:10:13.892 by medical researchers in. 00:10:14.327 --> 00:10:16.817 Even the medical journals, but, but also, yeah, now it's 00:10:16.817 --> 00:10:19.367 Rupert Isaacson: almost flipped and it's like one, one is skeptical of 00:10:19.367 --> 00:10:22.757 what one sees in the medical journals because half of what's more than 00:10:22.757 --> 00:10:25.937 half of what's in there was funded by the pharmaceutical industry. 00:10:25.937 --> 00:10:30.047 So, you know, but that, that's seems to have, you know, crept up on us a 00:10:30.047 --> 00:10:32.357 little bit in the last 20, 25 years. 00:10:32.417 --> 00:10:32.627 Yeah, 00:10:32.807 --> 00:10:32.808 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:10:32.807 --> 00:10:34.577 well there's a lot of fraud now. 00:10:34.577 --> 00:10:34.637 Yeah. 00:10:34.637 --> 00:10:39.957 And just this week in my newsfeed there was an article about fraudulent 00:10:39.957 --> 00:10:46.257 reporting in medicine and AI coming up with falsified data and inaccurate data. 00:10:46.257 --> 00:10:48.177 So yeah, it's a real problem. 00:10:49.167 --> 00:10:49.532 Rupert Isaacson: What have I, 00:10:50.072 --> 00:10:50.073 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:10:50.072 --> 00:10:50.727 so yeah, 00:10:51.597 --> 00:10:55.167 Rupert Isaacson: snake oil salesman and yeah, use an expression 00:10:55.167 --> 00:10:56.127 even in the virtual world. 00:10:56.727 --> 00:10:58.647 Okay, so you end up in London? 00:10:58.767 --> 00:10:58.887 No, 00:10:59.277 --> 00:10:59.278 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:10:59.277 --> 00:11:03.627 I ended up in London and I had a wonderful, wonderful year there. 00:11:03.627 --> 00:11:06.737 Just fantastic going down to. 00:11:07.397 --> 00:11:11.787 Where is it that the, the Royal Navy is doing The 30 meter, 33 meter 00:11:11.787 --> 00:11:15.007 breath hold dives as an exhibition? 00:11:15.707 --> 00:11:23.627 Just amazing the, the Royal Navy came back to San Francisco and went 00:11:23.657 --> 00:11:26.327 into a sports medicine practice. 00:11:26.327 --> 00:11:28.907 I always say I was the token yuppie woman. 00:11:28.907 --> 00:11:33.377 Doctor in a kind of, she she practice in downtown San Francisco. 00:11:33.407 --> 00:11:33.437 Okay. 00:11:34.517 --> 00:11:38.837 And that was run by an anesthesiologist who had no clue 00:11:39.287 --> 00:11:43.127 how to manage the financial and administrative aspects of a clinic. 00:11:43.127 --> 00:11:49.367 So that clinic tanked, and I worked a couple of other places, and then I 00:11:49.427 --> 00:11:54.467 went to Stanford, taking the place of a guy who went off to do his fellowship. 00:11:54.467 --> 00:11:55.847 So I ended up at Stanford. 00:11:56.477 --> 00:12:01.667 In the, technically the division of cardiology, but it was the Stanford 00:12:01.667 --> 00:12:04.427 Center for Research in Disease Prevention. 00:12:04.757 --> 00:12:08.927 And a good part of my sports medicine fellowship was preventative 00:12:08.927 --> 00:12:12.347 medicine, was exercise physiology. 00:12:13.187 --> 00:12:18.347 So it was about a third orthopedics, about a third exercise physiology, and 00:12:18.347 --> 00:12:22.847 a third of an assortment of different topics in sports medicine, like the 00:12:23.327 --> 00:12:29.747 Chief Medical Officer of British Airways coming to lecture us on team, team flight 00:12:29.747 --> 00:12:32.537 medicine, medicine for team flights. 00:12:32.867 --> 00:12:40.847 So at Stanford, I worked on some studies in preventive medicine that there was 00:12:40.847 --> 00:12:42.857 a very well known study called Mr. 00:12:42.857 --> 00:12:49.247 Fit, multiple Risk Factor intervention Trials where we had people quit 00:12:49.247 --> 00:12:54.857 smoking or their intake of cholesterol, start exercising stress management. 00:12:55.742 --> 00:12:59.102 Which I'm very involved with now was a big part of that also. 00:13:00.212 --> 00:13:01.442 Rupert Isaacson: Would that have been in the eighties? 00:13:02.312 --> 00:13:02.313 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:13:02.312 --> 00:13:05.522 That was 87 I started there. 00:13:05.702 --> 00:13:05.732 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:13:06.272 --> 00:13:06.273 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:13:06.272 --> 00:13:07.682 And about a few years later. 00:13:07.772 --> 00:13:07.982 Yes. 00:13:07.987 --> 00:13:08.187 When, 00:13:08.247 --> 00:13:08.467 Rupert Isaacson: yes. 00:13:08.672 --> 00:13:11.492 Stress management was barely talked about back then. 00:13:11.492 --> 00:13:11.972 It's true. 00:13:13.682 --> 00:13:13.683 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:13:13.682 --> 00:13:20.162 Well, it's interesting because in the uk, one of our, that miscellaneous third 00:13:20.162 --> 00:13:27.182 that wasn't orthopedics or exercise physiology, it was sports psychology. 00:13:28.472 --> 00:13:35.402 There was a, a fairly big section on sports psychology and dealing with stress 00:13:35.612 --> 00:13:38.552 and performance anxiety in athletes. 00:13:39.062 --> 00:13:39.242 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:13:39.742 --> 00:13:39.743 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:13:39.742 --> 00:13:41.182 And especially top athletes. 00:13:41.182 --> 00:13:45.622 I, I mean we worked with the, the British Olympic team when the 00:13:45.772 --> 00:13:47.782 Russian Olympic team came there. 00:13:48.532 --> 00:13:50.242 So, so when those grants work. 00:13:51.277 --> 00:13:51.967 Ran out. 00:13:52.027 --> 00:13:57.427 We, we were funded by grants, and when the grants ran out, I went 00:13:57.427 --> 00:13:59.257 over and worked at Apple Computer. 00:13:59.257 --> 00:14:04.927 Apple Computer was, had worked with us on, in some of our studies. 00:14:05.287 --> 00:14:06.937 Rupert Isaacson: What had they done with you at that point? 00:14:08.107 --> 00:14:08.108 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:14:08.107 --> 00:14:09.007 They, and 00:14:09.787 --> 00:14:10.927 Rupert Isaacson: were they looking at stress? 00:14:10.927 --> 00:14:11.857 Stress for their workers? 00:14:12.157 --> 00:14:12.158 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:14:12.157 --> 00:14:14.297 They looked at stress, exercise. 00:14:14.297 --> 00:14:17.237 It wasn't mostly stress, it was mostly aerobic exercise. 00:14:17.237 --> 00:14:18.437 Aerobic and anaerobic. 00:14:18.437 --> 00:14:19.577 So were, were they already 00:14:19.577 --> 00:14:21.587 Rupert Isaacson: aware at that point, apple of people 00:14:21.587 --> 00:14:22.937 sitting too long at computers? 00:14:25.067 --> 00:14:26.757 Why were they, why were they into it? 00:14:27.047 --> 00:14:27.048 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:14:27.047 --> 00:14:31.067 It was some of that, some of that was ergonomics and I, I ended up. 00:14:31.472 --> 00:14:36.002 Making ergonomic house calls on some of the PE people in the cubicles in Apple 00:14:36.002 --> 00:14:37.982 computer, which was kind of interesting. 00:14:38.552 --> 00:14:43.382 They were interested because corporate fitness was just taking off. 00:14:43.382 --> 00:14:48.662 Then the leader and pioneer in that area was Johnson and Johnson, 00:14:49.142 --> 00:14:52.712 and Apple wasn't too far behind in building fitness centers. 00:14:53.072 --> 00:15:01.442 My job there was to do a multiphasic physical on any employee was eligible 00:15:01.442 --> 00:15:05.462 to have a, an annual multiphasic physical with, so they just 00:15:05.462 --> 00:15:07.922 Rupert Isaacson: basically wanted fit healthy employees, 00:15:08.552 --> 00:15:08.553 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:15:08.552 --> 00:15:08.942 right? 00:15:09.092 --> 00:15:09.242 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:15:09.272 --> 00:15:09.482 Right. 00:15:09.482 --> 00:15:09.483 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:15:09.482 --> 00:15:14.402 Because there's, there was data on productivity in healthy 00:15:14.402 --> 00:15:17.552 employees, productivity in employees who were less stressed. 00:15:17.702 --> 00:15:20.432 Lower blood pressure, fewer medical problems. 00:15:20.732 --> 00:15:21.002 Big. 00:15:21.182 --> 00:15:24.302 There was a big quit smoking program, one. 00:15:25.232 --> 00:15:31.862 One, one story that stands out in my mind and my heart is there was a person there, 00:15:32.402 --> 00:15:38.972 then he was then a guy who was very well known in the Pascal programming world, 00:15:40.472 --> 00:15:48.652 and then he transitioned to a, she he had been a, was a two pack a day smoker. 00:15:49.552 --> 00:15:58.312 And in transitioning he needed to go on hormones and the doctors wouldn't 00:15:58.312 --> 00:16:01.912 prescribe hormones to somebody who smoked because there was a much higher risk 00:16:01.912 --> 00:16:05.182 of stroke with estrogens and smoking. 00:16:06.322 --> 00:16:10.072 And so he was highly motivated to quit. 00:16:10.612 --> 00:16:15.922 And annually, every, every year in November, we had this event 00:16:15.922 --> 00:16:17.752 called the Great American Smokeout. 00:16:17.842 --> 00:16:21.922 It's a national event where smokers. 00:16:22.462 --> 00:16:27.322 Take a non-smoker as a partner and the non-smoker gives up something 00:16:27.322 --> 00:16:29.662 and the smoker gives up cigarettes. 00:16:30.052 --> 00:16:30.292 Okay. 00:16:30.292 --> 00:16:35.692 And so I became this person's, this, this person had been my patient 00:16:35.692 --> 00:16:39.652 in the, in the clinic for annual physicals and a couple of other things. 00:16:39.652 --> 00:16:47.842 And so I became this person's partner and he, she very successfully gave up smoking, 00:16:48.202 --> 00:16:53.692 got their hormones, and ended up with long blonde hair and painted fingernails 00:16:53.692 --> 00:16:55.492 and miniskirts and things like that. 00:16:56.602 --> 00:16:57.802 Quite a fun story. 00:16:58.042 --> 00:16:58.942 Rupert Isaacson: What did you give up? 00:17:00.322 --> 00:17:00.323 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:17:00.322 --> 00:17:01.102 Oh gosh. 00:17:01.102 --> 00:17:02.182 Probably sugar. 00:17:02.182 --> 00:17:03.322 Maybe sweets. 00:17:03.322 --> 00:17:04.402 I don't remember. 00:17:04.952 --> 00:17:06.812 I don't have a huge sweet tooth. 00:17:06.902 --> 00:17:07.202 How long 00:17:07.202 --> 00:17:08.197 Rupert Isaacson: were you supposed to give it up for? 00:17:09.692 --> 00:17:09.693 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:17:09.692 --> 00:17:14.462 I think it was six weeks, 30 days, six weeks. 00:17:14.732 --> 00:17:14.822 Okay. 00:17:14.822 --> 00:17:18.452 So not that it's still going on, although, yeah, the Great American 00:17:18.452 --> 00:17:19.532 Smokeout is still going on. 00:17:19.532 --> 00:17:25.562 So I'm not sure how long, how long the commitment is, but yeah, that 00:17:25.562 --> 00:17:27.602 was, that was, that was really sweet. 00:17:28.747 --> 00:17:39.397 Yeah, so I worked at Apple for almost 10 years and was, had become very 00:17:39.397 --> 00:17:43.357 interested in medical informatics, which is the use of computers in medicine. 00:17:43.717 --> 00:17:44.137 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:17:44.677 --> 00:17:44.678 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:17:44.677 --> 00:17:49.507 Because to be a little tangential and do a little back flip. 00:17:50.167 --> 00:17:54.127 In my teenage years I had been really interested in computers also. 00:17:54.127 --> 00:17:59.407 I had gone to a summer program at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 00:17:59.437 --> 00:18:04.502 MIT, for computer programming with punch cards in those days. 00:18:04.612 --> 00:18:04.902 Okay. 00:18:05.827 --> 00:18:09.157 And so I was always interested in computers and I was at that 00:18:09.157 --> 00:18:14.057 time particularly interested in artificial intelligence in medicine. 00:18:14.927 --> 00:18:15.317 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:18:15.797 --> 00:18:17.837 Were people even talking about it even back then? 00:18:19.097 --> 00:18:19.098 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:18:19.097 --> 00:18:19.727 This is, yeah. 00:18:19.727 --> 00:18:21.727 This is 1987 and, and people 00:18:21.827 --> 00:18:23.567 Rupert Isaacson: were using the word artificial intelligence. 00:18:23.657 --> 00:18:23.658 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:18:23.657 --> 00:18:24.107 Oh, yeah. 00:18:24.107 --> 00:18:24.407 Sure. 00:18:24.407 --> 00:18:27.077 Well, well, well, Alan Touring used it. 00:18:27.137 --> 00:18:30.627 He was probably a, a British guy in the fifties. 00:18:31.257 --> 00:18:31.467 Yeah. 00:18:31.467 --> 00:18:33.127 And yeah, very famous guy. 00:18:33.757 --> 00:18:37.067 Played in the movie by I always call him Bander Snatch. 00:18:37.067 --> 00:18:37.967 Cummerbund. 00:18:38.027 --> 00:18:38.447 Yeah. 00:18:38.447 --> 00:18:38.687 Yeah. 00:18:40.367 --> 00:18:40.877 Rupert Isaacson: Benedict. 00:18:41.902 --> 00:18:42.222 You know 00:18:42.222 --> 00:18:42.223 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:18:42.222 --> 00:18:42.582 who I mean? 00:18:42.612 --> 00:18:43.262 Yeah, I do. 00:18:43.402 --> 00:18:46.167 The really good movie, he was talking about artificial intelligence back then. 00:18:46.187 --> 00:18:46.607 Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:18:46.607 --> 00:18:46.967 In the war. 00:18:47.037 --> 00:18:47.327 Yeah. 00:18:47.332 --> 00:18:51.082 He, he was definitely, I, I don't know who coined the term, 00:18:51.082 --> 00:18:52.432 but it was, he was using it. 00:18:53.032 --> 00:18:56.962 But so, so I was interested in artificial intelligence and medicine and Apple 00:18:56.962 --> 00:18:59.002 had just started their AI group. 00:19:00.052 --> 00:19:05.132 And the man who was to become my husband, I have to get this in was 00:19:05.132 --> 00:19:11.402 the second hire in the Apple AI group, and we came together to plan a panel 00:19:11.402 --> 00:19:18.332 discussion on AI in medicine in Macworld at Macworld, which is a huge annual 00:19:18.662 --> 00:19:22.352 Macintosh conference in San Francisco. 00:19:24.362 --> 00:19:32.762 So when I left Apple, I went to work for Phillips Medical Systems. 00:19:32.972 --> 00:19:33.812 Rupert Isaacson: And why did you leave Apple? 00:19:35.112 --> 00:19:35.113 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:19:35.112 --> 00:19:36.492 Why did I leave Apple? 00:19:37.032 --> 00:19:39.552 Because I got offered this really interesting job. 00:19:39.552 --> 00:19:42.582 I, you know, I had been doing mostly physicals for 10 years. 00:19:42.732 --> 00:19:45.612 We didn't have a clinic where I actually saw sick people. 00:19:45.942 --> 00:19:48.672 It was just physicals and physicals and physicals. 00:19:49.032 --> 00:19:49.272 Got it. 00:19:49.322 --> 00:19:50.282 And I loved the group. 00:19:50.282 --> 00:19:55.202 We recently had a big reunion, but I really, I wanted to do something a 00:19:55.202 --> 00:19:57.932 little bit more challenging mentally. 00:19:58.112 --> 00:19:58.292 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:19:58.532 --> 00:19:58.533 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:19:58.532 --> 00:20:03.562 And at that point, the electronic medical record was coming into the 00:20:03.562 --> 00:20:11.732 fore and particularly the electronic patient record, the, the patient view 00:20:12.272 --> 00:20:14.462 into the electronic medical record. 00:20:15.362 --> 00:20:23.072 So Philips Medical Systems had a group out here that was developing a patient 00:20:23.072 --> 00:20:27.752 record and a a, actually, I think, yeah, it was a doctor and patient 00:20:28.232 --> 00:20:31.292 record, both views into the system. 00:20:32.042 --> 00:20:36.452 To integrate with their radiology suites. 00:20:36.542 --> 00:20:43.472 Phillips was, and I think still is the leader in cardiac radiology, 00:20:43.502 --> 00:20:46.062 radiology for cardiology. 00:20:47.252 --> 00:20:50.612 And so that, that was a great group. 00:20:52.022 --> 00:20:58.262 And then somehow I think Philip put the kibosh on that. 00:20:58.262 --> 00:21:02.942 I don't exactly remember what happened, but then I went to a 00:21:02.942 --> 00:21:07.472 company called WebMD, which probably a lot of people have heard of. 00:21:08.282 --> 00:21:08.672 Yeah. 00:21:08.672 --> 00:21:15.812 And that, that was a terrific experience also because we, we were also working 00:21:15.872 --> 00:21:22.622 on the patient record, the view into patient data and designing. 00:21:23.237 --> 00:21:25.547 Medical record, the internet 00:21:25.547 --> 00:21:27.257 Rupert Isaacson: was alive and well by this point. 00:21:27.257 --> 00:21:27.557 Right. 00:21:27.557 --> 00:21:27.947 So you are. 00:21:27.947 --> 00:21:28.097 Yes. 00:21:28.097 --> 00:21:28.157 We, 00:21:28.487 --> 00:21:28.488 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:21:28.487 --> 00:21:30.497 this is, this is 2000. 00:21:30.797 --> 00:21:31.157 Okay. 00:21:31.907 --> 00:21:32.147 Yeah. 00:21:32.147 --> 00:21:32.417 Yeah. 00:21:32.417 --> 00:21:33.917 The e email, everything. 00:21:34.017 --> 00:21:35.277 It wasn't like it is now. 00:21:35.277 --> 00:21:35.847 There wasn't, right. 00:21:35.847 --> 00:21:35.967 But 00:21:35.967 --> 00:21:36.387 Rupert Isaacson: it was 00:21:36.387 --> 00:21:36.388 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:21:36.387 --> 00:21:39.837 a lot of the, the degree of, in fact, apple, apple was 00:21:39.837 --> 00:21:40.977 just, it was the big takeoff. 00:21:40.977 --> 00:21:42.057 It was the big, yeah, it was, 00:21:42.177 --> 00:21:42.447 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 00:21:42.667 --> 00:21:42.668 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:21:42.667 --> 00:21:46.477 When I left Apple, so that was, I left Apple in 97. 00:21:46.747 --> 00:21:46.957 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:21:47.407 --> 00:21:47.408 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:21:47.407 --> 00:21:48.307 And Apple, 00:21:50.407 --> 00:21:54.367 I was one of the people that had helped form the apple, 00:21:54.367 --> 00:21:56.107 the internet interest group. 00:21:56.827 --> 00:22:00.897 There were two people from the advanced technology group and and 00:22:00.897 --> 00:22:03.087 my husband, who they had internet. 00:22:03.087 --> 00:22:07.857 The, the, the American military had internet in the, in the seventies it 00:22:07.857 --> 00:22:09.897 was called Arnet and Darpanet and had. 00:22:11.277 --> 00:22:16.347 Internal emailing systems and kind of like what it is today at at least 00:22:16.347 --> 00:22:18.837 technically tech technology wise. 00:22:19.257 --> 00:22:20.707 So, yeah. 00:22:20.707 --> 00:22:27.457 So at WebMD we had a little artist's colony on the floor where, you 00:22:27.457 --> 00:22:31.177 know, we were all in cubes, but we had the facilities people unscrew 00:22:31.177 --> 00:22:34.027 our fluorescent lights and we all brought these beautiful lamps. 00:22:34.027 --> 00:22:37.717 And these were the very, very creative people from the 00:22:38.267 --> 00:22:39.857 apple Human Interface group. 00:22:40.577 --> 00:22:48.047 And we did designs for the medical record and it was just a real fun place to be. 00:22:48.677 --> 00:22:55.667 And then WebMD, who was based mostly on the East coast, they 00:22:55.667 --> 00:23:00.707 decided to close their Silicon Valley office and they moved. 00:23:01.187 --> 00:23:06.107 They wanted to divide it up and move some to New York and some to Atlanta. 00:23:06.917 --> 00:23:07.337 Rupert Isaacson: Why. 00:23:07.937 --> 00:23:08.657 Why, why get out? 00:23:08.657 --> 00:23:09.617 That's, that's where 00:23:09.617 --> 00:23:09.618 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:23:09.617 --> 00:23:13.277 they, well, they had been based there and I think they thought they 00:23:13.277 --> 00:23:14.957 could do better in Silicon Valley. 00:23:15.227 --> 00:23:15.377 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:23:15.707 --> 00:23:15.708 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:23:15.707 --> 00:23:16.907 And then they found they couldn't. 00:23:17.117 --> 00:23:17.297 Okay. 00:23:17.297 --> 00:23:19.997 You know, especially with the internet growing up, it didn't matter where 00:23:19.997 --> 00:23:24.697 you were and it just didn't make sense to keep that to keep that open. 00:23:24.967 --> 00:23:25.057 Mm-hmm. 00:23:25.297 --> 00:23:31.207 Just, you know, again, parenthetically that that collaboration was between a 00:23:31.207 --> 00:23:35.122 company called Halon and, and WebMD. 00:23:35.752 --> 00:23:39.142 And Halon was Clark Jim. 00:23:39.142 --> 00:23:44.992 Jim Clark, I think, who was started Netscape and then Silicon Graphics. 00:23:44.992 --> 00:23:46.372 You've heard now. 00:23:46.372 --> 00:23:46.702 Yeah. 00:23:47.002 --> 00:23:49.462 Now we're talking Netscape Silicon Graphics. 00:23:49.802 --> 00:23:52.592 Had a, had a big ship in the Americas Cup. 00:23:52.962 --> 00:23:54.372 I think he might even have won. 00:23:55.092 --> 00:23:57.552 And, but, but anyway, so WebMD. 00:23:58.182 --> 00:24:01.992 Decided to pull in its forces and consolidate on the East 00:24:01.992 --> 00:24:04.392 coast and I wasn't gonna go move. 00:24:04.962 --> 00:24:09.642 And so in 2002, oh, and, and the other thing that was happening at 00:24:09.642 --> 00:24:12.732 that time was what's called the.com 00:24:12.732 --> 00:24:16.572 bust, where a lot of the startups 00:24:16.812 --> 00:24:17.232 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:24:17.652 --> 00:24:17.653 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:24:17.652 --> 00:24:18.312 Went down. 00:24:18.582 --> 00:24:18.882 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:24:18.972 --> 00:24:18.973 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:24:18.972 --> 00:24:20.742 And that, so that was the.com 00:24:20.742 --> 00:24:21.372 bust. 00:24:21.942 --> 00:24:25.392 And so that economically wasn't a good time for Silicon Valley. 00:24:25.932 --> 00:24:31.962 And I think that was another factor in WebMD deciding to move 00:24:31.962 --> 00:24:33.912 its move, its playing pieces. 00:24:34.392 --> 00:24:36.402 And I did not want to go to the East coast. 00:24:36.832 --> 00:24:39.532 They gave us a humongous severance package. 00:24:39.622 --> 00:24:42.952 Nobody, you know, I didn't really need to to work right away. 00:24:43.612 --> 00:24:47.062 But I was a little bit nervous about not working and 'cause 00:24:47.872 --> 00:24:49.642 I always have to be working 00:24:50.302 --> 00:24:50.722 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:24:51.052 --> 00:24:51.053 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:24:51.052 --> 00:24:52.657 Doing something and. 00:24:54.487 --> 00:24:57.877 I, I remember this conversation in my backyard with my best 00:24:57.877 --> 00:25:00.967 friend who's actually a, also a doctor and a yoga teacher. 00:25:00.967 --> 00:25:02.557 And she said, cool. 00:25:02.557 --> 00:25:05.167 It just, just cool it. 00:25:05.167 --> 00:25:12.547 Sit back and think, what do you really want to do now that you have 00:25:12.547 --> 00:25:15.787 all this free time and resources? 00:25:16.507 --> 00:25:22.087 And I said, well, you know, I've always wanted to ride horses. 00:25:24.037 --> 00:25:25.507 Rupert Isaacson: And you never had until that point. 00:25:26.107 --> 00:25:26.108 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:25:26.107 --> 00:25:26.527 Sorry? 00:25:26.767 --> 00:25:28.177 Rupert Isaacson: You never had until that point? 00:25:28.837 --> 00:25:28.838 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:25:28.837 --> 00:25:32.197 No, you know, I, I had the odd dude ride in Yosemite. 00:25:32.467 --> 00:25:32.827 Okay. 00:25:32.827 --> 00:25:35.297 But no, I had, I grew up on an island. 00:25:35.357 --> 00:25:40.037 I had no consciousness of horses except perhaps for the sort of 00:25:40.037 --> 00:25:41.987 Hoi Toi National Velvet set. 00:25:41.987 --> 00:25:44.687 And there was harness racing just outside of Boston. 00:25:45.597 --> 00:25:46.467 But no, I, I, which, which 00:25:46.467 --> 00:25:47.922 Rupert Isaacson: island were you, were you brought up on? 00:25:48.972 --> 00:25:48.973 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:25:48.972 --> 00:25:50.022 It's called Winthrop. 00:25:50.292 --> 00:25:57.202 It's like 355 degrees water and there's a causeway out to Boston. 00:25:57.412 --> 00:25:57.832 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:25:58.612 --> 00:25:58.613 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:25:58.612 --> 00:26:02.122 And so we were all about swimming and boats and surfing and Right. 00:26:03.802 --> 00:26:04.492 The beach. 00:26:04.552 --> 00:26:04.882 Yeah. 00:26:04.972 --> 00:26:06.352 Rupert Isaacson: But you always had a hankering foot, the boats. 00:26:07.612 --> 00:26:07.613 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:26:07.612 --> 00:26:11.722 Well, I watched all the cowboy movies of the fifties. 00:26:11.722 --> 00:26:11.782 Yeah. 00:26:12.112 --> 00:26:17.362 Boy Rogers and have Gun Will Travel and Wagon Train and Bonanza. 00:26:17.362 --> 00:26:20.272 Bonanza wasn't the fifties, but no, I used to watch the westerns 00:26:20.272 --> 00:26:24.172 and get on my bed and make a horse out of my pillow and a belt. 00:26:24.352 --> 00:26:24.802 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:26:25.552 --> 00:26:25.553 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:26:25.552 --> 00:26:27.472 Giddy up on the edge of the bed. 00:26:27.932 --> 00:26:31.982 And put my pajamas over my head with the legs hanging down 00:26:31.982 --> 00:26:33.152 so I could be Annie Oakley. 00:26:33.242 --> 00:26:33.362 Okay. 00:26:34.692 --> 00:26:35.832 So, so that was horses. 00:26:35.832 --> 00:26:37.782 It was cowboys and, 00:26:37.787 --> 00:26:38.577 Rupert Isaacson: and cowgirls 00:26:39.912 --> 00:26:39.913 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:26:39.912 --> 00:26:40.872 and cowgirls and western fantasies. 00:26:40.877 --> 00:26:41.097 Yeah. 00:26:41.127 --> 00:26:41.417 Yeah. 00:26:41.422 --> 00:26:41.832 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:26:43.212 --> 00:26:43.213 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:26:43.212 --> 00:26:49.362 So, so fast forward to 2002 and I always wanted to, I can't say 00:26:49.362 --> 00:26:54.222 I always wanted to ride horses, but late lately, in those years, 00:26:54.222 --> 00:26:56.832 'cause I was, I was 52 at that time. 00:26:57.432 --> 00:26:57.552 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:26:57.612 --> 00:26:57.613 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:26:57.612 --> 00:27:02.652 So, and I had once run a marathon, two half marathons. 00:27:02.652 --> 00:27:08.442 I used to swim a mile a day and my body was kind of getting not 00:27:08.442 --> 00:27:10.632 so able to do those things right. 00:27:11.502 --> 00:27:15.702 I thought, well, you know, if I get on a horse, I will be 00:27:15.702 --> 00:27:22.482 strong again and fast again and graceful again and tireless again. 00:27:22.962 --> 00:27:25.002 So that was my fantasy at that point. 00:27:25.002 --> 00:27:26.742 And so I started taking writing lessons. 00:27:27.402 --> 00:27:28.902 Rupert Isaacson: It's surprising though that it took you that 00:27:28.902 --> 00:27:31.122 long because have you been out in Silicon Valley all that time? 00:27:31.122 --> 00:27:33.942 And Silicon Valley's actually, people often don't realize this, but 00:27:33.942 --> 00:27:37.302 it's a very horsey place and people think of Silicon Valley as like a 00:27:37.302 --> 00:27:38.922 valley of silicon, and it isn't. 00:27:38.922 --> 00:27:41.922 It's like one of the most beautifully forested, you know, 00:27:42.282 --> 00:27:47.062 rural, semi-rural parts of, you know, California and lots of horses. 00:27:47.092 --> 00:27:51.322 So I'm surprised that within that culture you hadn't found your way 00:27:51.322 --> 00:27:55.582 there, and until this point you'd always have to try to avoid it. 00:27:56.632 --> 00:27:56.633 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:27:56.632 --> 00:27:59.062 Well, it's not so obvious I commute 00:27:59.692 --> 00:27:59.832 Rupert Isaacson: Especi at Stanford. 00:27:59.887 --> 00:28:02.902 'cause Stanford has a big equestrian presence, right? 00:28:03.592 --> 00:28:05.632 There's even Fox hunting going on on that campus. 00:28:06.262 --> 00:28:06.263 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:28:06.262 --> 00:28:09.142 It was on, it was on a whole other side of. 00:28:10.462 --> 00:28:13.372 Of campus from us. 00:28:13.432 --> 00:28:17.152 So I, I really had no consciousness of the, the Stanford 00:28:17.152 --> 00:28:18.802 Red Barn Equestrian Center 00:28:19.162 --> 00:28:19.492 Rupert Isaacson: right 00:28:19.942 --> 00:28:19.943 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:28:19.942 --> 00:28:20.632 as it is. 00:28:21.112 --> 00:28:23.602 And you can't really see horses from the road. 00:28:23.602 --> 00:28:29.992 I commuted for years from San Francisco down through Silicon Valley to Sunnyvale 00:28:30.712 --> 00:28:32.572 and Santa Clara for, you know, for WebMD. 00:28:32.572 --> 00:28:34.012 And I never saw horses from that. 00:28:34.222 --> 00:28:34.942 It's funny though. 00:28:34.942 --> 00:28:37.252 Rupert Isaacson: I've driven that same road so many times, and I remember when 00:28:37.252 --> 00:28:40.432 I used to live in Berkeley for a bit and I drove that road the first time, 00:28:40.432 --> 00:28:45.832 the first thing that hit my eye in the fences around snap of work coops, you 00:28:45.832 --> 00:28:50.242 know, the jumps that fox hunters put in the, in the wire fences that they 00:28:50.242 --> 00:28:53.122 can jump over when they're following hands and think, I was thinking, oh, 00:28:53.602 --> 00:28:55.102 someone's hunting here, you know? 00:28:55.102 --> 00:28:56.152 So it's so interesting, isn't it? 00:28:56.152 --> 00:28:59.422 If you're conditioned to see those things that leapt out at me from 00:28:59.422 --> 00:29:02.662 the highway, you would drove past that a bazillion times and I guess 00:29:03.292 --> 00:29:04.462 different conditioning, different. 00:29:04.462 --> 00:29:04.552 Well, 00:29:05.422 --> 00:29:05.423 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:29:05.422 --> 00:29:08.752 and now I'm on a 300 acre ranch that. 00:29:09.607 --> 00:29:11.737 Starts a hundred yards from the highway. 00:29:11.737 --> 00:29:13.897 And I never knew there were horses there. 00:29:14.047 --> 00:29:14.407 Right. 00:29:14.617 --> 00:29:15.877 It just, you, you're right. 00:29:15.877 --> 00:29:17.707 You, you've gotta be conditioned to see it. 00:29:17.707 --> 00:29:18.367 It has to. 00:29:18.967 --> 00:29:19.237 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:29:19.297 --> 00:29:19.298 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:29:19.297 --> 00:29:25.297 There has to be something in your mind that gets triggered when, when it happens. 00:29:25.297 --> 00:29:28.117 And I, you know, I always thought horses were beautiful animals. 00:29:28.807 --> 00:29:32.257 But, but, so there I was in 2002 and I started taking writing lessons 00:29:34.477 --> 00:29:38.557 and it, it, I, I really loved my instructor. 00:29:38.632 --> 00:29:40.777 I, I kind of have her to this day. 00:29:41.107 --> 00:29:41.287 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:29:41.887 --> 00:29:41.888 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:29:41.887 --> 00:29:51.727 But writing at that point for me, and I don't fault my instructors, but it's 00:29:52.177 --> 00:29:56.497 just kind, sort of the kind of person that I am, a little bit perfectionist. 00:29:57.817 --> 00:30:03.577 So it was all about doing things right, being correct. 00:30:04.687 --> 00:30:09.157 It wasn't even at that point so much the relationship with the horse, 00:30:09.157 --> 00:30:14.647 although I love animals and you know, I feel very connected emotionally and 00:30:14.647 --> 00:30:17.497 spiritually to animals and horses. 00:30:17.497 --> 00:30:23.557 But at that point, riding was about being correct and I went to my lessons every 00:30:23.557 --> 00:30:26.527 week for years with knots in my stomach, 00:30:28.597 --> 00:30:30.157 afraid of how I was gonna mess up. 00:30:30.487 --> 00:30:30.757 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:30:30.757 --> 00:30:32.917 I think, I think that's the story so many people have. 00:30:33.082 --> 00:30:33.372 Yeah. 00:30:33.377 --> 00:30:33.577 Yeah. 00:30:33.697 --> 00:30:34.117 Right. 00:30:35.197 --> 00:30:35.198 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:30:35.197 --> 00:30:44.257 So then fortuitously, what happened was a few years later, I think in 00:30:44.257 --> 00:30:52.777 2004, six, something like that, I, no, it was later than that, but I 00:30:52.777 --> 00:30:55.452 got bucked off a table in my kitchen. 00:30:56.922 --> 00:30:57.212 Okay. 00:30:58.897 --> 00:30:59.617 Naughty table. 00:30:59.617 --> 00:31:01.447 Yeah, I was naughty table. 00:31:01.537 --> 00:31:02.407 Very just. 00:31:03.502 --> 00:31:04.012 I think 00:31:07.012 --> 00:31:13.132 and I got a broken foot, a dislocated elbow 00:31:13.252 --> 00:31:15.172 Rupert Isaacson: and a How does one get bucked off a table? 00:31:15.862 --> 00:31:15.863 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:31:15.862 --> 00:31:24.142 I was putting wine glasses away on a high shelf and I was, it, it was a small table. 00:31:24.142 --> 00:31:32.182 It wasn't really made as a step stool and it was on spindly legs and it, I just, 00:31:32.182 --> 00:31:39.682 my, my foot placement was such that it flipped out under me just, and I ended up 00:31:39.682 --> 00:31:46.702 on the kitchen floor and synchronistically and symbolically there was, in our 00:31:46.702 --> 00:31:51.232 living room, a guy sitting there who was an adjuster from the insurance company 00:31:51.262 --> 00:31:53.182 'cause we had had flooding in our garage. 00:31:53.632 --> 00:31:58.732 So he was sitting there with his little laptop adjusting and. 00:31:58.927 --> 00:32:05.137 That, that became very symbolic because that accident was this 00:32:05.437 --> 00:32:07.867 huge adjustment in my life. 00:32:09.017 --> 00:32:13.007 'Cause I went, the, the orthopedic surgeon that tended my foot 00:32:13.847 --> 00:32:15.977 said, we can't ride anymore. 00:32:15.982 --> 00:32:17.177 You, you can't ride right? 00:32:17.177 --> 00:32:19.907 You, you bone heal. 00:32:20.987 --> 00:32:21.227 Right? 00:32:22.097 --> 00:32:24.647 And I said, well, you know, 00:32:27.437 --> 00:32:31.277 I could, I was perfectly, it was my right foot that was fractured. 00:32:31.277 --> 00:32:36.917 And so I was perfectly capable of mounting, you know, with my left 00:32:36.917 --> 00:32:38.537 foot in the stir and swinging over. 00:32:38.537 --> 00:32:43.667 But I, I got a little bit scared, I guess, or a little bit caught. 00:32:43.757 --> 00:32:49.157 He, he instilled caution in me, a caution that isn't usually there. 00:32:49.157 --> 00:32:57.887 But I said, okay, so what I did is I enrolled as a client in. 00:32:58.637 --> 00:33:04.247 The Therapeutic Riding Center, our local then Path Premier 00:33:04.247 --> 00:33:05.837 Therapeutic Riding Center. 00:33:07.007 --> 00:33:13.637 And I had been volunteering there for a couple years with, with children mostly. 00:33:13.697 --> 00:33:15.497 Rupert Isaacson: And why, what did join you to do that? 00:33:17.417 --> 00:33:17.418 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:33:17.417 --> 00:33:20.897 Because I wanted to learn everything I could about horses because I 00:33:20.897 --> 00:33:23.057 admired the work that they were doing. 00:33:23.327 --> 00:33:23.417 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:33:23.607 --> 00:33:23.608 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:33:23.607 --> 00:33:26.367 I learned so much about horses in that program. 00:33:26.427 --> 00:33:26.547 Mm-hmm. 00:33:26.612 --> 00:33:30.567 Those, those horses were in some ways very different from the lesson 00:33:30.567 --> 00:33:32.457 horses that we had at the ranch. 00:33:33.127 --> 00:33:35.167 Just amazing horses, a lot of them. 00:33:36.397 --> 00:33:39.467 And and I, and I wanted to do something of service. 00:33:40.097 --> 00:33:40.187 Mm-hmm. 00:33:40.847 --> 00:33:46.577 And there may have been other reasons, but, but it, anyway, after the 00:33:46.577 --> 00:33:54.887 accident, I became a client in that center and I had the most fantastic. 00:33:56.222 --> 00:34:01.662 Therapeutic riding instructor Corey Thompson, I have to say her name into the 00:34:01.662 --> 00:34:07.062 video in Invoke Her 'cause she actually later became and, and still is a quite 00:34:07.062 --> 00:34:09.672 a big part of my horsemanship life. 00:34:10.572 --> 00:34:17.352 And for the first time it was just playful to be on horses. 00:34:17.382 --> 00:34:20.292 It was so liberating. 00:34:21.082 --> 00:34:23.272 Because, you know, it was bareback. 00:34:23.422 --> 00:34:28.582 We rode bareback and it was a wonderful horse. 00:34:28.662 --> 00:34:30.612 I can see him but I can't remember his name. 00:34:30.672 --> 00:34:37.152 And we did airplane arms and we did around the world and we did 00:34:37.302 --> 00:34:43.212 breathing and singing and everybody was just so cheerful and playful. 00:34:44.022 --> 00:34:50.922 And I thought, wow, this is, this is what I really want. 00:34:51.807 --> 00:35:00.987 Have for, for my horsemanship and there was a somatic aspect of feeling my body, 00:35:01.377 --> 00:35:08.787 feeling my breathing in, in a playful way, not in a way that was meant to put myself 00:35:08.787 --> 00:35:13.407 in the correct ear, hip axis position. 00:35:13.467 --> 00:35:13.767 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:35:13.772 --> 00:35:19.227 Or, or, or run your marathon correctly or all the other things you've been trying 00:35:19.227 --> 00:35:22.497 to do correctly with your body, I presume as well, which wasn't Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:35:22.497 --> 00:35:27.057 Had probably lack play, you know, had high achievement, but perhaps not quite 00:35:27.057 --> 00:35:30.687 so not as we'd say in the UK or Ireland. 00:35:30.897 --> 00:35:31.702 Not much crack. 00:35:33.732 --> 00:35:33.733 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:35:33.732 --> 00:35:33.942 Yeah. 00:35:33.942 --> 00:35:36.192 Well, you know, I could swim before I could walk. 00:35:36.522 --> 00:35:36.702 Yeah. 00:35:36.702 --> 00:35:37.062 Almost. 00:35:37.152 --> 00:35:40.422 Well, not quite, but two years old I was swimming in the ocean. 00:35:40.872 --> 00:35:40.962 Mm-hmm. 00:35:41.202 --> 00:35:43.692 And swimming wasn't about being perfect. 00:35:43.782 --> 00:35:44.112 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:35:44.232 --> 00:35:44.233 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:35:44.232 --> 00:35:48.462 Or about, I, I mean, I did take swimming lessons and teach swimming 00:35:48.462 --> 00:35:52.252 and learn technique and there's something to it, but it was always fun. 00:35:52.432 --> 00:35:52.672 Yeah. 00:35:52.672 --> 00:35:57.862 And, and horse riding lessons just weren't fun. 00:35:58.042 --> 00:35:58.312 Right. 00:35:58.342 --> 00:35:59.422 'cause you didn't get to grow 00:35:59.422 --> 00:36:01.012 Rupert Isaacson: up on the back. 00:36:01.012 --> 00:36:01.342 Right. 00:36:01.492 --> 00:36:03.712 Just messing about like we did. 00:36:03.712 --> 00:36:04.012 Yeah. 00:36:04.012 --> 00:36:06.352 So I always associated it with fun. 00:36:07.127 --> 00:36:07.417 Yeah. 00:36:07.787 --> 00:36:09.097 Later when we Yeah, yeah. 00:36:09.097 --> 00:36:11.092 Went to refine my technique. 00:36:11.092 --> 00:36:11.752 Okay, fine. 00:36:11.752 --> 00:36:15.412 But yeah, the, the base was always fun, but it it's so true, isn't 00:36:15.412 --> 00:36:17.752 it, with a lot of these things that we start as adults mm-hmm. 00:36:17.902 --> 00:36:22.762 We often come in, no matter what it is, with a such a desire to do it right. 00:36:23.362 --> 00:36:27.772 That we don't come in with the same play, playful laity that children 00:36:27.772 --> 00:36:30.862 come in, including learning by the way and studying, you know? 00:36:30.962 --> 00:36:31.052 Mm-hmm. 00:36:31.058 --> 00:36:33.482 So we want to be successful, we want to be diligent, we want to be 00:36:33.482 --> 00:36:36.692 rigorous, we want to be all these things, and it's just no crack at all. 00:36:36.692 --> 00:36:39.092 And no wonder everybody burns out and gets depressed. 00:36:39.092 --> 00:36:39.302 Yeah. 00:36:39.662 --> 00:36:39.672 Yeah. 00:36:39.932 --> 00:36:41.612 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:36:42.392 --> 00:36:42.393 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:36:42.392 --> 00:36:46.262 Well, you know, we're just winding down our summer camp season, so 00:36:46.262 --> 00:36:50.663 for 22 years at this ranch, we've had summer camps, Uhhuh, and the, 00:36:50.762 --> 00:36:52.862 the kids start at seven years old. 00:36:53.507 --> 00:36:59.267 And I see how, how they approach it in, in the ways that I never got to do as 00:36:59.267 --> 00:37:01.907 a child or as a perfectionist adult. 00:37:01.907 --> 00:37:03.497 And it's just fun for them. 00:37:03.707 --> 00:37:04.067 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:37:04.337 --> 00:37:04.338 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:37:04.337 --> 00:37:05.567 It's just a lot of fun. 00:37:05.992 --> 00:37:06.692 So, alright, 00:37:06.697 --> 00:37:08.327 Rupert Isaacson: so, so back up just a little bit. 00:37:08.327 --> 00:37:13.277 So you end up though, at Stanford again, isn't that right? 00:37:13.787 --> 00:37:15.707 Or how do you, 00:37:16.187 --> 00:37:16.188 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:37:16.187 --> 00:37:16.847 okay. 00:37:16.847 --> 00:37:17.807 So that's your, your, your 00:37:17.807 --> 00:37:20.777 Rupert Isaacson: academic thing seems to kick off at the same 00:37:20.777 --> 00:37:25.817 time that you get this whole therapeutic equestrian thing going. 00:37:26.117 --> 00:37:28.247 Just, just how do these things happen in parallel? 00:37:30.257 --> 00:37:30.258 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:37:30.257 --> 00:37:32.717 It's, it's a little more sequential. 00:37:32.717 --> 00:37:37.847 So, so that, that accident put me back in my fun body. 00:37:38.447 --> 00:37:38.507 Mm. 00:37:38.507 --> 00:37:45.317 With Corey and I, she, I eventually worked for her in a veteran's program 00:37:45.317 --> 00:37:47.057 at that therapeutic writing center. 00:37:47.327 --> 00:37:49.487 I'm, I'm a little hazy on the. 00:37:50.297 --> 00:37:52.192 On the timeline here, so I'll just 00:37:54.017 --> 00:37:54.377 Rupert Isaacson: kind of lay 00:37:54.377 --> 00:37:54.378 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:37:54.377 --> 00:37:54.707 it out. 00:37:54.707 --> 00:37:56.777 It's, it's a little bit of a mosaic now. 00:37:56.807 --> 00:37:57.017 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:37:57.737 --> 00:37:57.738 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:37:57.737 --> 00:38:04.487 So I had always been interested in psychology and, and actually spirituality. 00:38:04.877 --> 00:38:05.027 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:38:05.497 --> 00:38:05.498 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:38:05.497 --> 00:38:08.997 From, from my mother was very interested in dreams and very 00:38:08.997 --> 00:38:11.277 interested in extrasensory perception. 00:38:11.547 --> 00:38:12.267 Rupert Isaacson: Was your mother Jung? 00:38:14.697 --> 00:38:14.698 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:38:14.697 --> 00:38:16.557 No, she wasn't a psychologist. 00:38:16.557 --> 00:38:24.087 She had a geology professor at Tufts University that I think was also 00:38:24.147 --> 00:38:26.007 interested in extrasensory perception. 00:38:26.007 --> 00:38:28.047 My mother was a very hardheaded woman. 00:38:28.047 --> 00:38:29.277 Very logical. 00:38:29.577 --> 00:38:29.907 Sure. 00:38:29.907 --> 00:38:30.057 Very. 00:38:30.777 --> 00:38:33.627 Rupert Isaacson: It's funny how one always feels the desire to say 00:38:33.627 --> 00:38:37.737 this as soon as one says anything spiritual, as if being hardheaded 00:38:38.277 --> 00:38:44.497 and scientific can't exist in direct parallel with the ex, you know, the. 00:38:45.592 --> 00:38:48.862 The esoteric it's, it's so interesting, isn't it? 00:38:48.862 --> 00:38:52.612 We almost find ourselves apologizing for the esoteric side of our as. 00:38:52.697 --> 00:38:56.272 But, but you know, really, really, I'm, I'm a real rigorous scientist as well. 00:38:56.272 --> 00:38:57.382 It's like, yeah, yeah, sure. 00:38:57.382 --> 00:38:57.922 Absolutely. 00:38:57.922 --> 00:39:01.942 But again, life without the esoteric is also no life at all. 00:39:02.422 --> 00:39:07.762 And, well, we also, physics now is, you know, well, its way back to the 00:39:07.762 --> 00:39:09.742 esoteric, but I can hear what you mean. 00:39:09.742 --> 00:39:10.162 It's it. 00:39:10.402 --> 00:39:10.642 Okay. 00:39:10.642 --> 00:39:12.022 So, so, so your, your mother. 00:39:12.172 --> 00:39:12.202 Okay. 00:39:12.202 --> 00:39:12.203 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:39:12.202 --> 00:39:14.242 Wait, I've gotta get a little tangential here. 00:39:14.692 --> 00:39:20.692 What you just said is what brought me to work Schiller, from your podcast. 00:39:20.722 --> 00:39:27.952 Ah, and my, my life's work now is bridging the scientific and the spiritual 00:39:28.312 --> 00:39:32.542 through horses, through quantum physics. 00:39:33.397 --> 00:39:34.327 Quantum theory. 00:39:35.387 --> 00:39:37.732 So that, that's, maybe we'll get to the thing we want. 00:39:37.732 --> 00:39:38.957 Now you're gonna have to bring us to quantum. 00:39:38.957 --> 00:39:44.412 Now we're back in, right now we're back in like 2005, I think. 00:39:44.417 --> 00:39:44.627 Okay. 00:39:45.197 --> 00:39:51.077 So I became familiar somehow with the field of equine assisted 00:39:51.407 --> 00:39:53.057 learning and psychotherapy. 00:39:53.237 --> 00:40:00.707 My family medicine residency emphasized psychotherapy and the, the psychological, 00:40:01.067 --> 00:40:04.037 and that was always an interest of mine. 00:40:04.397 --> 00:40:04.607 Hmm. 00:40:04.607 --> 00:40:11.142 And so I was going to go to a clinic with Barbara Rector, who will be known 00:40:11.267 --> 00:40:12.977 to some of the people listening here. 00:40:12.977 --> 00:40:18.657 She's quite well known in equine assisted learning, kind 00:40:18.657 --> 00:40:20.787 of spirituality cycles circle. 00:40:20.787 --> 00:40:20.817 Okay. 00:40:20.817 --> 00:40:21.027 I'm gonna 00:40:21.027 --> 00:40:22.917 Rupert Isaacson: look her up as you, as you talk, Barbara. 00:40:23.307 --> 00:40:23.308 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:40:23.307 --> 00:40:23.397 Yeah. 00:40:23.397 --> 00:40:24.537 Adventures in awareness. 00:40:24.537 --> 00:40:26.157 She's out of Tucson, Arizona. 00:40:26.187 --> 00:40:26.487 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:40:27.507 --> 00:40:27.508 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:40:27.507 --> 00:40:32.697 And I was supposed to go to a clinic of hers down by San Diego in California. 00:40:32.757 --> 00:40:33.117 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:40:33.227 --> 00:40:33.228 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:40:33.227 --> 00:40:34.677 And the clinic got canceled. 00:40:36.027 --> 00:40:41.217 And in the cancellation email, there was an invitation to do the five 00:40:41.217 --> 00:40:44.817 day version of her clinic in Tucson. 00:40:45.957 --> 00:40:51.327 And I thought, well, do I really wanna commit to that amount of time? 00:40:52.077 --> 00:40:54.112 And, and the, the resources and everything. 00:40:54.117 --> 00:41:01.012 And, and at that point, as I was deciding, I had what Carl and calls a great dream. 00:41:01.432 --> 00:41:01.942 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:41:02.062 --> 00:41:02.063 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:41:02.062 --> 00:41:07.762 We had this magnificent technicolor dream of red. 00:41:08.362 --> 00:41:11.872 Mustangs stallions dancing in the desert. 00:41:11.967 --> 00:41:12.257 Okay. 00:41:12.382 --> 00:41:17.182 And this dream was complete with a Native American shaman riding over the hill. 00:41:17.842 --> 00:41:22.612 And I had no connection with deserts, and the horses were dancing in the dream. 00:41:23.152 --> 00:41:24.262 They were dancing. 00:41:25.042 --> 00:41:28.972 And I said, okay, I'm supposed to go to the desert and do this workshop, 00:41:31.282 --> 00:41:31.972 which I did. 00:41:32.812 --> 00:41:34.222 And Walter Zele was there. 00:41:34.672 --> 00:41:36.592 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I knew Walter Zele a little bit. 00:41:36.592 --> 00:41:37.532 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:41:37.612 --> 00:41:41.662 Those, for those listeners who didn't, he was a, a very, very Al 00:41:41.812 --> 00:41:43.492 Austrian classical dressage dude. 00:41:43.552 --> 00:41:43.642 Yeah. 00:41:43.882 --> 00:41:45.627 What was he doing there out of, well, he 00:41:45.627 --> 00:41:45.628 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:41:45.627 --> 00:41:47.062 was doing a dressage clinic. 00:41:47.242 --> 00:41:47.662 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:41:47.872 --> 00:41:47.873 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:41:47.872 --> 00:41:49.132 We got to watch a little bit. 00:41:49.282 --> 00:41:50.002 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool. 00:41:50.302 --> 00:41:50.303 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:41:50.302 --> 00:41:50.932 Amazing guy. 00:41:50.932 --> 00:41:53.212 He's since over the Rainbow Bridge, but yeah, 00:41:53.217 --> 00:41:53.507 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah. 00:41:53.672 --> 00:41:55.292 I have his book on the bookshelf behind me there. 00:41:55.297 --> 00:41:55.477 Yeah. 00:41:55.592 --> 00:41:55.593 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:41:55.592 --> 00:41:56.692 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:41:57.272 --> 00:42:00.452 So in Barbara's. 00:42:00.932 --> 00:42:01.802 Syllabus. 00:42:01.832 --> 00:42:04.502 She, she had a big three ring binder for us. 00:42:05.402 --> 00:42:14.192 There was an article in the EG gala magazine about Alan Hamilton who was egal 00:42:14.522 --> 00:42:17.552 Rupert Isaacson: again, for listeners who don't know what that is, was 00:42:17.642 --> 00:42:17.643 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:42:17.642 --> 00:42:18.212 Oh, I'm sorry. 00:42:18.212 --> 00:42:18.332 Yeah, 00:42:18.392 --> 00:42:18.812 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 00:42:18.812 --> 00:42:22.922 One of the first models of equine facilitated psychotherapy effectively. 00:42:22.922 --> 00:42:23.462 Yeah, yeah. 00:42:23.727 --> 00:42:24.017 Okay. 00:42:24.022 --> 00:42:24.272 Yeah. 00:42:24.272 --> 00:42:24.273 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:42:24.272 --> 00:42:26.672 Equine assisted Growth in Learning Association. 00:42:26.732 --> 00:42:28.232 Right, right. 00:42:28.862 --> 00:42:32.052 So, there was an article from their magazine in Barbara 00:42:32.052 --> 00:42:33.732 Rector's three ring binder 00:42:33.852 --> 00:42:34.002 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 00:42:34.632 --> 00:42:34.633 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:42:34.632 --> 00:42:38.622 On Alan Hamilton, who was then the chief, and, and may still be 00:42:38.622 --> 00:42:41.802 actually the chief of neurosurgery at the University of Arizona. 00:42:42.942 --> 00:42:49.722 And, and he was a horseman with a ranch, and he had developed a program 00:42:49.782 --> 00:42:52.572 called Medicine and Horsemanship. 00:42:53.412 --> 00:43:00.522 Where he taught workshops for medical students with his horses in 00:43:00.522 --> 00:43:09.792 communication, teamwork basically that, and when I saw that, just this 00:43:10.422 --> 00:43:15.012 light bulb went off in my head and I thought, this is what I want to do. 00:43:15.852 --> 00:43:15.912 Hmm. 00:43:15.912 --> 00:43:20.022 I can, I can work with horses and medical students and doctors and 00:43:20.562 --> 00:43:23.592 nurses to improve communication because 00:43:26.412 --> 00:43:34.962 doctor communication issues were, are, we're, and are a sore spot in. 00:43:35.427 --> 00:43:36.717 In medical practice. 00:43:36.767 --> 00:43:37.037 It's 00:43:37.037 --> 00:43:37.697 Rupert Isaacson: so true. 00:43:37.697 --> 00:43:40.067 Bedside manner, you know, people underestimate it. 00:43:40.067 --> 00:43:43.877 But doc, there's doctors that kill their parents, parents, patients who Yeah. 00:43:43.877 --> 00:43:48.707 And vice versa, just by being unpleasant and others who didn't 00:43:48.947 --> 00:43:50.177 do so well in their degree. 00:43:50.207 --> 00:43:52.847 All of these patients seem to get better just because the 00:43:52.847 --> 00:43:54.047 doctor is more empathetic. 00:43:54.047 --> 00:43:54.377 Yeah, 00:43:54.737 --> 00:43:54.738 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:43:54.737 --> 00:43:55.697 yeah, exactly. 00:43:56.657 --> 00:44:01.607 And, you know, I would, I would always hear horror stories about how 00:44:01.787 --> 00:44:08.177 badly people were treated by their doctors and Dismissed, misunderstood. 00:44:08.897 --> 00:44:09.047 Mm-hmm. 00:44:09.287 --> 00:44:17.267 And so with Alan, under Alan's mentorship, I established 00:44:17.267 --> 00:44:18.887 that same program at Stanford. 00:44:19.802 --> 00:44:22.462 Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm 00:44:22.462 --> 00:44:29.642 an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping 00:44:29.642 --> 00:44:34.362 people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field. 00:44:34.442 --> 00:44:35.282 Are you a therapist? 00:44:35.702 --> 00:44:36.972 Are you a caregiver? 00:44:37.362 --> 00:44:38.372 Are you a parent? 00:44:38.807 --> 00:44:40.837 Or are you somebody with neurodivergence? 00:44:42.277 --> 00:44:47.217 When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, 00:44:47.257 --> 00:44:48.887 I really didn't know what to do. 00:44:49.087 --> 00:44:54.357 So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult 00:44:54.397 --> 00:44:57.197 autistic woman who's very famous, Dr. 00:44:57.347 --> 00:44:58.237 Temple Grandin. 00:44:58.437 --> 00:45:00.077 And she told me what to do. 00:45:00.127 --> 00:45:04.367 And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years. 00:45:04.717 --> 00:45:09.167 That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped 00:45:09.427 --> 00:45:13.177 countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal. 00:45:13.517 --> 00:45:17.417 Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings. 00:45:18.447 --> 00:45:22.887 If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed 00:45:23.107 --> 00:45:25.147 approach, it's called Movement Method. 00:45:25.807 --> 00:45:29.164 You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply. 00:45:29.164 --> 00:45:31.427 It's almost laughably simple. 00:45:32.367 --> 00:45:35.067 The important thing is to begin. 00:45:35.997 --> 00:45:39.147 Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr. 00:45:39.147 --> 00:45:42.437 Grandin and see what results can follow. 00:45:43.467 --> 00:45:46.397 Go to this website, newtrailslearning. 00:45:48.667 --> 00:45:51.172 com Sign up as a gold member. 00:45:51.612 --> 00:45:54.502 Take the online movement method course. 00:45:54.992 --> 00:45:56.362 It's in 40 countries. 00:45:56.972 --> 00:45:59.032 Let us know how it goes for you. 00:45:59.232 --> 00:46:00.002 We really want to know. 00:46:00.012 --> 00:46:04.512 We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there 00:46:04.862 --> 00:46:08.142 live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens. 00:46:09.296 --> 00:46:11.876 Now, were you already back at Stanford at this time? 00:46:12.326 --> 00:46:12.327 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:46:12.326 --> 00:46:12.806 No. 00:46:12.896 --> 00:46:13.316 No. 00:46:13.366 --> 00:46:13.846 So how did 00:46:13.846 --> 00:46:15.196 Rupert Isaacson: you establish this at Stanford? 00:46:16.881 --> 00:46:16.882 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:46:16.881 --> 00:46:20.091 Well first, let, let me just back up one quarter of a step. 00:46:20.091 --> 00:46:25.971 We, we did the first program at the, at UCSF up in San Francisco. 00:46:26.491 --> 00:46:30.481 And actually the clinic was two hours north of that, and that wasn't gonna fly. 00:46:30.511 --> 00:46:32.851 Medical students weren't gonna drive two hours to this thing. 00:46:32.881 --> 00:46:33.061 Okay. 00:46:33.336 --> 00:46:39.101 And we had hoped there was supposed to be a resurgence of horses in 00:46:39.101 --> 00:46:41.231 Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. 00:46:41.291 --> 00:46:43.751 And that never happened in, in Golden Gate Park. 00:46:43.751 --> 00:46:43.761 I 00:46:43.846 --> 00:46:44.046 Rupert Isaacson: remember that. 00:46:44.306 --> 00:46:44.526 Yes. 00:46:44.756 --> 00:46:47.891 That, that beautiful stable, that's still standing empty there. 00:46:47.896 --> 00:46:48.166 Yeah. 00:46:48.401 --> 00:46:48.402 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:46:48.401 --> 00:46:48.761 Yeah. 00:46:48.761 --> 00:46:51.971 Well, there are police horses in the park, but the, the old 00:46:51.971 --> 00:46:53.831 stables never got refurbished. 00:46:54.761 --> 00:46:59.291 And the Ingo Park was right down the hill from UCSF medical school. 00:46:59.411 --> 00:46:59.501 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:46:59.891 --> 00:46:59.892 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:46:59.891 --> 00:47:01.271 It's like a five minute walk. 00:47:02.816 --> 00:47:04.256 And, but that never happened. 00:47:04.706 --> 00:47:08.936 And so I said, well, why don't I try making an elective at Stanford? 00:47:09.656 --> 00:47:13.496 So I looked around on the internet for departments that I thought would 00:47:13.496 --> 00:47:19.496 be amenable, you know, sympathetic to doctor patient communic, improving 00:47:19.496 --> 00:47:21.056 doctor patient communication. 00:47:21.686 --> 00:47:28.646 And the chief of family medicine at that time was a guy who had grown up 00:47:29.216 --> 00:47:32.456 in Canada on the US border with horses. 00:47:33.626 --> 00:47:35.636 And he was all for the program. 00:47:35.636 --> 00:47:42.716 He, he was just very aware of the relationship with horses and how horses 00:47:42.716 --> 00:47:44.486 can teach us to be better people. 00:47:45.656 --> 00:47:47.066 So he was all for it. 00:47:47.156 --> 00:47:52.256 And but the rule was in order to create an elective for medical students, you 00:47:52.256 --> 00:47:55.286 had to get a medical student champion. 00:47:56.936 --> 00:47:58.406 So we found this woman. 00:47:59.036 --> 00:48:07.446 Who had two horses at the Stanford Red Barn Equestrian Center, and she 00:48:07.776 --> 00:48:09.846 had had to drop out of Stanford. 00:48:09.846 --> 00:48:13.446 She was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. 00:48:13.986 --> 00:48:14.076 Oh. 00:48:15.096 --> 00:48:19.146 And she had to drop out of medical school for one or two years. 00:48:19.146 --> 00:48:19.776 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:48:20.406 --> 00:48:20.407 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:48:20.406 --> 00:48:25.746 And during those one or two years, her horses were her saviors. 00:48:25.896 --> 00:48:26.346 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:48:27.006 --> 00:48:28.116 Did she then survive? 00:48:29.016 --> 00:48:29.017 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:48:29.016 --> 00:48:29.496 Yes. 00:48:29.556 --> 00:48:29.916 Oh yeah. 00:48:29.916 --> 00:48:30.126 Yeah. 00:48:30.126 --> 00:48:31.626 She's at Vanderbilt now. 00:48:31.776 --> 00:48:32.166 Rupert Isaacson: Wow. 00:48:32.556 --> 00:48:32.557 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:48:32.556 --> 00:48:34.086 And yeah, she did very well. 00:48:34.086 --> 00:48:34.176 Good. 00:48:34.601 --> 00:48:39.516 And yeah, I'm still in touch with her, and so she became our champion. 00:48:39.936 --> 00:48:40.296 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:48:40.296 --> 00:48:40.386 And. 00:48:41.796 --> 00:48:41.797 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:48:41.796 --> 00:48:47.646 So we have the Stanford program at the ranch at the 300 acre ranch that 00:48:47.646 --> 00:48:49.686 I'm at, which is owned by Stanford. 00:48:49.686 --> 00:48:55.536 Stanford owns 8,000 acres of land in the area, many of which are ranches, some of 00:48:55.536 --> 00:48:57.516 which they've closed down, unfortunately. 00:48:57.786 --> 00:48:58.806 Mm-hmm. 00:48:59.076 --> 00:49:04.146 So that, that kind of brings us up to date except for one thing, which is the 00:49:04.716 --> 00:49:12.546 jewel in the crown, so to speak which is the, the medicine and horsemanship 00:49:12.546 --> 00:49:18.006 emphasizes communication, teamwork, leadership, which wasn't an issue 00:49:18.006 --> 00:49:22.476 when I was in medical school, but it is now that medical care is delivered 00:49:22.596 --> 00:49:24.996 in corporate structures, basically. 00:49:25.896 --> 00:49:30.336 So it's got corporate hierarchies that demand leadership, 00:49:30.666 --> 00:49:31.896 leadership and self-care. 00:49:33.231 --> 00:49:37.941 At some point, I think, connected with this accident and working with 00:49:37.941 --> 00:49:43.011 Corey, I realized that the real thing that I wanted to teach was the 00:49:43.011 --> 00:49:45.321 somatic aspect of being with horses. 00:49:45.321 --> 00:49:51.741 That just the total body connection, which becomes a energetic connection 00:49:51.741 --> 00:49:53.331 and a spiritual connection. 00:49:53.661 --> 00:49:53.781 Mm-hmm. 00:49:54.451 --> 00:49:57.751 'Cause at this point I was also teaching Tai Chi at Stanford. 00:49:57.926 --> 00:49:58.466 Rupert Isaacson: Of course you were 00:49:59.076 --> 00:49:59.077 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:49:59.076 --> 00:49:59.426 sorry. 00:49:59.646 --> 00:49:59.946 Rupert Isaacson: Of course. 00:50:00.006 --> 00:50:00.586 Of course you were. 00:50:01.141 --> 00:50:01.142 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:50:01.141 --> 00:50:03.331 Well, that, that happened in a weird way too. 00:50:03.331 --> 00:50:08.031 This I, I kind of got roped into it, but but it worked out. 00:50:08.031 --> 00:50:13.761 And there's another slightly gentler martial art called Qigong, which is 00:50:14.001 --> 00:50:17.631 more of a health practice than Taiji, although they kind of both are. 00:50:17.961 --> 00:50:23.691 And so that's what I'm doing now is mainly is teaching Qigong with horses. 00:50:23.841 --> 00:50:24.741 Rupert Isaacson: And how do you do that? 00:50:25.611 --> 00:50:25.612 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:50:25.611 --> 00:50:28.011 So we learn some traditional. 00:50:29.661 --> 00:50:30.621 Qigong forms. 00:50:30.621 --> 00:50:38.241 There's a, a basic traditional Qigong form called the Bad gin, which means the 00:50:38.241 --> 00:50:42.201 eight pieces of silk, eight silk brocades. 00:50:42.561 --> 00:50:49.071 And interestingly enough, the bad gin is being heavily studied by the 00:50:49.371 --> 00:50:54.951 health ministry in Beijing for its ability to help people with cancer. 00:50:56.301 --> 00:50:56.361 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:50:56.361 --> 00:50:58.641 So tell us about the, these silk and brocades. 00:50:58.791 --> 00:51:01.931 Why that, why that name and how does it work? 00:51:02.681 --> 00:51:02.682 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:51:02.681 --> 00:51:05.471 I, I've never been real clear why it's called this, this goes 00:51:05.471 --> 00:51:08.681 back, you know, hundreds of years. 00:51:09.221 --> 00:51:09.401 Longer. 00:51:09.401 --> 00:51:10.841 Longer I to be, yeah. 00:51:10.841 --> 00:51:14.711 I mean, Qigong itself is said to have been discovered. 00:51:15.311 --> 00:51:20.681 We have a piece of pottery that's about 8,000 years old that 00:51:21.101 --> 00:51:26.141 apparently a, according to some archeologists, shows the Woo shaman 00:51:26.356 --> 00:51:26.776 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 00:51:27.916 --> 00:51:27.917 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:51:27.916 --> 00:51:31.571 The, the shamans of those days in a Qigong pose. 00:51:31.721 --> 00:51:36.911 And they are said to have learned Qigong by watching animals heal themselves. 00:51:37.271 --> 00:51:37.841 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:51:38.321 --> 00:51:38.322 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:51:38.321 --> 00:51:38.711 Yeah. 00:51:38.771 --> 00:51:45.741 So, so Qigong works with energy mostly Qi, but I also work with Reiki, which 00:51:46.131 --> 00:51:47.931 I experience was different from Qi. 00:51:48.201 --> 00:51:54.951 And so the, the name of the course is Equanimity Stress Reduction and Emotional 00:51:54.981 --> 00:51:57.951 Self-Regulation in the Company of Horses. 00:51:58.131 --> 00:52:02.031 Rupert Isaacson: What, just quickly back to Beijing, why, why are, why 00:52:02.031 --> 00:52:05.811 is the health ministry there looking at this particular Qigong practice? 00:52:05.811 --> 00:52:07.941 What's it finding that it does for cancer? 00:52:08.721 --> 00:52:09.651 This is interesting. 00:52:10.386 --> 00:52:10.387 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:52:10.386 --> 00:52:12.636 So there's some survival data. 00:52:13.126 --> 00:52:18.286 Largely what it does is it eases depression. 00:52:19.216 --> 00:52:20.596 It promotes mm-hmm. 00:52:20.986 --> 00:52:21.436 Appetite. 00:52:21.466 --> 00:52:24.796 'cause people with cancer tend to be really isolated, and so 00:52:24.796 --> 00:52:26.656 it's a very social activity. 00:52:26.806 --> 00:52:27.256 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:52:27.976 --> 00:52:27.977 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:52:27.976 --> 00:52:31.576 And there, there may be other factors that, that we're looking at 00:52:31.576 --> 00:52:37.006 in terms of the energy shifts that are salutatory for, for cancer. 00:52:37.006 --> 00:52:41.896 They, they're actually looking at three different forms of Qigong. 00:52:41.896 --> 00:52:45.136 One is the Bawan gin, the, the eight Silicon and Brocades. 00:52:45.141 --> 00:52:45.251 Mm-hmm. 00:52:45.511 --> 00:52:48.256 One is called Five Animals Qigong. 00:52:48.676 --> 00:52:52.836 And the other is this practice called Guin, walking after 00:52:52.836 --> 00:52:55.956 Guin, who was a cancer survivor. 00:52:56.006 --> 00:52:59.756 She had ovarian cancer, lived 10 more years. 00:52:59.756 --> 00:53:04.616 And her doctor said she would, by developing her form of Qigong, 00:53:04.976 --> 00:53:06.956 which is now called Guian Walking. 00:53:07.946 --> 00:53:10.556 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, I'm just going to, just, just so that those 00:53:10.556 --> 00:53:13.286 who've never heard of this before, have a little bit of context. 00:53:13.286 --> 00:53:16.406 I've just, I've just done my little Google while you were talking. 00:53:16.406 --> 00:53:20.666 So it says, what are the eight brick brocades in Qigong, it says, the 00:53:20.666 --> 00:53:25.676 eight brocades are a set of Qigong exercises that originated in China. 00:53:26.096 --> 00:53:28.136 I've been practiced throughout the world for thousands of years. 00:53:28.856 --> 00:53:32.906 Each movement focuses on a different meridian to improve 00:53:32.906 --> 00:53:34.376 the flow of Q through the body. 00:53:35.006 --> 00:53:38.456 If practiced routinely, the practice will improve your health significantly. 00:53:38.756 --> 00:53:43.796 It is believed that after practicing the sequence, one feels like wearing a 00:53:43.796 --> 00:53:49.646 dress made of a very rich, exquisite, hard to find precious soft silk fabric. 00:53:50.166 --> 00:53:54.156 So that silk weaving the form, the forms name refers to how it's eight 00:53:54.156 --> 00:53:58.266 movements characterized, and in part, a silken quality like that of 00:53:58.266 --> 00:54:01.326 a brocade to the body and its energy. 00:54:01.896 --> 00:54:02.916 But of course, you know, yeah. 00:54:02.986 --> 00:54:08.476 There's been a major crossover between allopathic and Chinese medicine and Qigong 00:54:08.476 --> 00:54:10.276 and Tai Chi of course, for a long time. 00:54:11.116 --> 00:54:13.516 But again, a lot of people listening might not know that. 00:54:13.636 --> 00:54:16.276 And so I find it very interesting that you're, you're involved in that. 00:54:16.356 --> 00:54:20.836 Interestingly too, just one, one little side note one of our horse boy centers 00:54:20.896 --> 00:54:28.346 in the uk a place called Move The Mind in outside Bristol also takes electives from 00:54:28.346 --> 00:54:33.046 the medical school at Bristol University, which is, you know, our equivalent, 00:54:33.046 --> 00:54:37.316 one of the Ivy Leagues who go out there to do their mental health electives. 00:54:37.806 --> 00:54:41.676 And for movement method, which is, you know, a one-horse side. 00:54:41.946 --> 00:54:45.796 Last year we got asked to do a conference at Eastern Virginia 00:54:45.796 --> 00:54:49.256 Medical School which is part of Old Dominion University on the East coast. 00:54:49.706 --> 00:54:51.776 A neuroscience conference specifically about. 00:54:52.751 --> 00:54:53.231 Our method. 00:54:53.231 --> 00:54:56.681 So it's interesting how these things are going from the hippie 00:54:56.681 --> 00:55:00.581 margins now, you know, into the mainstream of allopathic medicine. 00:55:01.031 --> 00:55:02.111 Whereas of course, yeah. 00:55:02.111 --> 00:55:08.471 Even I think pre COVID it, it wasn't really so much of a, it 00:55:08.471 --> 00:55:11.291 was, it was hovering there, but I think COVID somehow kicked it in. 00:55:11.951 --> 00:55:12.311 Okay. 00:55:12.311 --> 00:55:15.671 So you are teaching, you're teaching Qigong with horses. 00:55:15.671 --> 00:55:16.541 How does one do that? 00:55:18.221 --> 00:55:18.222 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:55:18.221 --> 00:55:20.981 So initially we learn the forms on the ground. 00:55:21.071 --> 00:55:21.281 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:55:21.821 --> 00:55:21.822 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:55:21.821 --> 00:55:28.241 Each form is connected with an organ system, which aren't like the meridian. 00:55:28.331 --> 00:55:28.811 Right. 00:55:29.321 --> 00:55:30.521 Well, not just a meridian. 00:55:30.611 --> 00:55:31.001 Okay. 00:55:31.241 --> 00:55:33.221 The meridians are connected with the organs too. 00:55:33.221 --> 00:55:36.191 I don't really work with the meridians 'cause it's a, gets a 00:55:36.191 --> 00:55:40.961 little esoteric for people, but people can visualize their liver. 00:55:41.111 --> 00:55:42.041 They can think of a lump of meat. 00:55:42.281 --> 00:55:42.491 Yeah. 00:55:42.491 --> 00:55:42.946 Renal gland. 00:55:43.006 --> 00:55:46.541 And in Chinese medicine, the organs aren't. 00:55:47.276 --> 00:55:49.586 Isolated organs, the way we envision them. 00:55:49.586 --> 00:55:50.516 Yeah, their systems. 00:55:50.816 --> 00:55:50.996 Yeah. 00:55:50.996 --> 00:55:55.856 And they're, you know, five elements and five flavors and five emotions. 00:55:55.856 --> 00:55:59.906 And it's a whole philosophical, biological system, 00:56:00.296 --> 00:56:00.776 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:56:01.106 --> 00:56:01.107 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:56:01.106 --> 00:56:07.946 So we learn the emotion that the emotion connected with each of the 00:56:07.946 --> 00:56:13.886 forms, and we learn to release the negative emotion as we do the form. 00:56:14.126 --> 00:56:14.336 Okay. 00:56:14.336 --> 00:56:17.226 So for instance shooting the hawk 00:56:19.446 --> 00:56:22.056 has to do with fear. 00:56:22.956 --> 00:56:30.216 And so we release fear and gather courage, and each, each move has a release 00:56:30.396 --> 00:56:33.516 and a gather, gathering the positive. 00:56:33.606 --> 00:56:33.786 So you 00:56:33.786 --> 00:56:34.926 Rupert Isaacson: do this on the ground. 00:56:35.436 --> 00:56:35.437 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:56:35.436 --> 00:56:36.966 So we do this on the ground first. 00:56:37.146 --> 00:56:39.396 We do No horse, sorry. 00:56:39.606 --> 00:56:40.356 Rupert Isaacson: No horse. 00:56:41.136 --> 00:56:41.137 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:56:41.136 --> 00:56:41.586 Not yet. 00:56:41.616 --> 00:56:42.186 Not well. 00:56:42.516 --> 00:56:46.896 We go in with the horses and we do other activities after we do that. 00:56:46.896 --> 00:56:51.616 And, and the last just, just lemme say that the we call what we do, the wan 00:56:51.616 --> 00:56:56.176 gin, you know, bomb bombing eight, eight pieces of brocade and ours is the woo. 00:56:56.536 --> 00:57:01.216 'cause there are three forms in the bad gin that you can't do on horseback, 00:57:01.246 --> 00:57:02.866 like bend over and touch your toes. 00:57:02.866 --> 00:57:03.646 And they're 00:57:03.646 --> 00:57:06.621 Rupert Isaacson: just, when you say the woo does woo mean five, we woo is five. 00:57:07.186 --> 00:57:07.187 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:57:07.186 --> 00:57:07.906 So we do the five. 00:57:08.236 --> 00:57:09.781 So someone says woo woo, that's five five. 00:57:12.206 --> 00:57:12.626 Interesting. 00:57:12.686 --> 00:57:13.736 Different, yeah, sure. 00:57:13.856 --> 00:57:14.876 Different, different woos. 00:57:15.476 --> 00:57:16.826 'Cause Chinese has tones. 00:57:17.156 --> 00:57:23.246 So we do, each week we learn one of the, the five and we do 00:57:23.246 --> 00:57:24.956 an activity with the horses. 00:57:25.536 --> 00:57:27.396 You know, the first is just a meet and greet. 00:57:27.396 --> 00:57:30.426 'cause most of these people have never been around horses ever. 00:57:31.296 --> 00:57:31.956 And. 00:57:33.006 --> 00:57:34.356 We learned the five forms. 00:57:34.356 --> 00:57:41.166 And then the last class of equanimity and medicine and horsemanship as this 00:57:41.166 --> 00:57:51.066 has come together is a meditation ride to music, bareback to music. 00:57:51.066 --> 00:57:54.776 We use Nawa kgs, Tibetan flute. 00:57:54.776 --> 00:57:58.346 It's a, it's an album called Music as Medicine. 00:57:58.736 --> 00:57:58.826 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:57:59.366 --> 00:57:59.367 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:57:59.366 --> 00:58:00.506 Appropriately enough. 00:58:00.866 --> 00:58:04.286 And there are three tracks where he's actually in duet with a 00:58:04.676 --> 00:58:08.516 very wonderful Native American flute player, art Carlos Naka. 00:58:10.616 --> 00:58:18.866 And so we sit at a, at a halt and do the forms that we've learned. 00:58:19.406 --> 00:58:21.326 And then we do a little walkabout. 00:58:22.196 --> 00:58:22.286 Mm-hmm. 00:58:22.526 --> 00:58:25.826 And, and we, we do this in, teams of four, where we use a 00:58:25.826 --> 00:58:27.806 therapeutic riding configuration. 00:58:27.806 --> 00:58:33.116 So we have one rider, two sidewalks, one or one or two sidewalks, 00:58:34.016 --> 00:58:35.636 and somebody leading the horse. 00:58:37.706 --> 00:58:41.126 So yeah, it's very, it's, it's really, really nice. 00:58:41.546 --> 00:58:42.896 Rupert Isaacson: And what results do you see with this? 00:58:43.946 --> 00:58:43.947 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:58:43.946 --> 00:58:46.466 Well, we're not very results oriented. 00:58:46.466 --> 00:58:48.146 People give us, so what results do 00:58:48.146 --> 00:58:48.596 Rupert Isaacson: you see? 00:58:48.596 --> 00:58:51.236 Because you do, you're gonna see something, you're gonna see 00:58:51.236 --> 00:58:52.101 change, so what do you think? 00:58:52.101 --> 00:58:52.102 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:58:52.101 --> 00:58:57.206 Well, you know, people get up there and cry and people write on their evaluations. 00:58:57.206 --> 00:58:59.696 What a wonderful course it is. 00:58:59.696 --> 00:59:00.326 And is it 00:59:00.326 --> 00:59:01.736 Rupert Isaacson: about emotional release? 00:59:01.916 --> 00:59:02.606 Is it about, 00:59:02.611 --> 00:59:02.612 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:59:02.611 --> 00:59:05.426 it's about emotional and release, but, you know, we don't do any testing. 00:59:05.426 --> 00:59:09.176 I have never been in to do research on my courses, honestly. 00:59:09.786 --> 00:59:16.236 I think as, as Warwick said in your, your podcast with him, 00:59:16.566 --> 00:59:18.456 the, you don't need the science. 00:59:19.206 --> 00:59:20.136 It's a phenomenon. 00:59:20.136 --> 00:59:21.186 Logical. 00:59:22.716 --> 00:59:23.316 Experience. 00:59:23.316 --> 00:59:23.526 No, 00:59:23.526 --> 00:59:24.636 Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more. 00:59:24.636 --> 00:59:24.696 Yeah. 00:59:24.726 --> 00:59:28.776 You only need the science if you're having to fund, you know, through organizations 00:59:28.776 --> 00:59:30.666 what you do for mental health or whatever. 00:59:30.666 --> 00:59:34.656 But nonetheless, I'm just curious to see, you know, what kind of people come 00:59:34.656 --> 00:59:37.086 in and what changes do they experience? 00:59:38.196 --> 00:59:38.197 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 00:59:38.196 --> 00:59:41.826 Well, what I notice is that people's stress levels go way down. 00:59:41.826 --> 00:59:42.426 We have mm-hmm. 00:59:42.536 --> 00:59:44.036 Let me just show you. 00:59:46.136 --> 00:59:52.076 So we do a check-in every week with the Native American talking stick. 00:59:52.076 --> 00:59:52.166 Mm-hmm. 00:59:52.196 --> 00:59:53.906 Which is also our stress ome. 00:59:55.106 --> 00:59:58.886 So people are asked to tell us what their stress level is from, you know, 00:59:58.886 --> 01:00:03.956 down on the belly button, which is zero to shoulder level, which is 10, and 01:00:03.956 --> 01:00:06.206 then some people are off the charts. 01:00:06.656 --> 01:00:06.806 Mm-hmm. 01:00:06.812 --> 01:00:09.716 And what we notice as the weeks go by is that people's. 01:00:10.241 --> 01:00:13.241 Baseline stress level goes way down. 01:00:14.031 --> 01:00:16.851 And they'll say that they were able to do some of the breathing 01:00:16.851 --> 01:00:18.771 exercises and cope better. 01:00:18.951 --> 01:00:20.691 'cause they're all Stanford employees. 01:00:21.061 --> 01:00:22.261 Almost all we do. 01:00:22.741 --> 01:00:24.511 Rupert Isaacson: So this is something that's done internally 01:00:24.511 --> 01:00:25.831 within Stanford University? 01:00:26.671 --> 01:00:26.672 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:00:26.671 --> 01:00:27.061 It is. 01:00:27.061 --> 01:00:29.761 It's open, it's done through the Healthy Living program. 01:00:29.821 --> 01:00:29.911 Okay. 01:00:29.911 --> 01:00:31.951 And it's open to community members. 01:00:32.011 --> 01:00:35.011 It feels very quickly and we have a waiting list. 01:00:35.011 --> 01:00:39.391 And it seems that Stanford employee, I bet you do got the jump again. 01:00:39.391 --> 01:00:39.931 Yeah. 01:00:39.961 --> 01:00:40.291 Yeah. 01:00:40.351 --> 01:00:40.441 How 01:00:40.441 --> 01:00:42.061 Rupert Isaacson: many weeks does the program go over? 01:00:42.391 --> 01:00:42.392 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:00:42.391 --> 01:00:42.901 Four. 01:00:43.411 --> 01:00:43.681 It's just. 01:00:45.616 --> 01:00:48.016 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so, so employees from within Stanford 01:00:48.016 --> 01:00:49.606 who are stressed out mm-hmm. 01:00:49.846 --> 01:00:50.296 Come to you. 01:00:50.296 --> 01:00:54.196 You are, you are at, you know, at Stanford, at the stable that Stanford has. 01:00:54.196 --> 01:00:55.156 So it's all internal. 01:00:55.686 --> 01:00:57.126 Are you still teaching at Stanford? 01:00:57.126 --> 01:00:59.496 Are you still practicing medicine as well? 01:00:59.556 --> 01:01:00.126 Alongside? 01:01:00.126 --> 01:01:00.336 I'm not 01:01:00.336 --> 01:01:00.337 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:01:00.336 --> 01:01:01.626 practicing medicine, no. 01:01:01.906 --> 01:01:04.486 Rupert Isaacson: When, when did you quit practicing medicine in that way? 01:01:05.086 --> 01:01:05.087 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:01:05.086 --> 01:01:05.896 Oh, boy. 01:01:05.996 --> 01:01:08.906 Probably 30 years ago. 01:01:09.416 --> 01:01:09.446 Okay. 01:01:09.446 --> 01:01:11.486 I was actually seeing patients like that. 01:01:11.936 --> 01:01:12.416 Yeah. 01:01:12.476 --> 01:01:17.426 And I just went on a retired license, medical license, I think four years ago. 01:01:17.426 --> 01:01:18.296 Three, four years ago. 01:01:18.326 --> 01:01:18.446 Okay. 01:01:18.986 --> 01:01:19.886 So, and 01:01:19.886 --> 01:01:21.551 Rupert Isaacson: teaching at Stanford, so, 01:01:21.566 --> 01:01:21.567 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:01:21.566 --> 01:01:24.926 so I teach the Tai Chi, I teach on campus. 01:01:24.986 --> 01:01:25.166 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:01:25.826 --> 01:01:25.827 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:01:25.826 --> 01:01:30.036 And it's called Medical Tai Chi, or actually it's called 01:01:30.036 --> 01:01:31.416 Medical Tai Chi, which isn't. 01:01:31.521 --> 01:01:35.191 Particularly accurate, but it, medical Thai chi, it's called 01:01:35.191 --> 01:01:41.101 medical because for the first half hour we have a journal club mm-hmm. 01:01:41.341 --> 01:01:47.101 That looks at the peer reviewed journal articles on the health 01:01:47.101 --> 01:01:48.931 benefits of TT Chi and Chi Kong. 01:01:50.281 --> 01:01:56.281 And as part of that, I teach scientific methodology, what is the gold standard 01:01:56.281 --> 01:02:01.981 for scientific research and why things like Taiji fall outside that gold 01:02:01.981 --> 01:02:07.381 standard methodology that they're not, you can't really apply the gold standard. 01:02:07.771 --> 01:02:09.901 And that's true of, of studies. 01:02:09.901 --> 01:02:13.051 And with horses too, there are too many variables. 01:02:13.051 --> 01:02:14.611 It's very, very hard to study. 01:02:16.411 --> 01:02:19.171 Anything with horses because you have different instructors, 01:02:19.171 --> 01:02:20.911 different horses, different Yeah. 01:02:20.941 --> 01:02:22.471 Clients or patients. 01:02:22.891 --> 01:02:26.041 Very, very hard to study Mom and the horse 01:02:26.041 --> 01:02:27.601 Rupert Isaacson: itself can't fill into, into questionnaire. 01:02:27.606 --> 01:02:27.871 Yeah, yeah. 01:02:29.521 --> 01:02:29.522 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:02:29.521 --> 01:02:32.201 It's exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:02:32.476 --> 01:02:39.631 So, but, but it's important, especially now where scientific reasoning and 01:02:39.631 --> 01:02:45.601 scientific, the philosophy of science is just being turned on its ear by certain 01:02:45.601 --> 01:02:48.841 events going on in the United States. 01:02:49.181 --> 01:02:55.001 It's important for people to understand how to judge traditional science 01:02:55.006 --> 01:03:00.221 and how to say, we don't gotta show you no stinking badges when it 01:03:00.221 --> 01:03:02.711 comes to proving that what we do. 01:03:04.121 --> 01:03:05.021 Is valuable. 01:03:05.021 --> 01:03:05.986 I mean, I, I don't know. 01:03:06.266 --> 01:03:06.581 It's great that the 01:03:06.581 --> 01:03:09.461 Rupert Isaacson: university values it on that, you know, because you think that the 01:03:09.461 --> 01:03:15.391 university would have to justify through some sort of standardized model, you know? 01:03:15.961 --> 01:03:18.691 I guess, but I guess it can fund what it wants to fund, right? 01:03:19.976 --> 01:03:19.977 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:03:19.976 --> 01:03:20.326 Right. 01:03:20.326 --> 01:03:26.201 Well, the, the equanimity is funded through the, the each, 01:03:26.201 --> 01:03:31.571 every Stanford employee has a continuing education allowance. 01:03:31.706 --> 01:03:31.996 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:03:31.996 --> 01:03:32.016 I think 01:03:32.441 --> 01:03:32.442 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:03:32.441 --> 01:03:32.561 it's. 01:03:33.401 --> 01:03:35.651 I don't know, 800, $900 a year. 01:03:35.711 --> 01:03:40.781 And so they use that for equanimity and people from the community can just pay 01:03:40.781 --> 01:03:43.681 whatever the, you know, the tuition is. 01:03:44.231 --> 01:03:44.501 Yeah. 01:03:44.501 --> 01:03:44.891 So it's, 01:03:44.981 --> 01:03:46.931 Rupert Isaacson: and are you, you are offering this through one 01:03:46.931 --> 01:03:50.696 of the departments or schools or faculties at Stanford and Right. 01:03:50.696 --> 01:03:51.701 If so, which one? 01:03:52.421 --> 01:03:52.422 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:03:52.421 --> 01:03:56.681 This is the Healthy Living Program, which used to be part of the medical school. 01:03:56.741 --> 01:03:56.921 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:03:57.161 --> 01:03:57.251 And 01:03:57.251 --> 01:03:57.252 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:03:57.251 --> 01:03:59.831 it's now somehow part of Human Resources, 01:03:59.831 --> 01:04:00.071 Rupert Isaacson: but Okay. 01:04:00.761 --> 01:04:00.762 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:04:00.761 --> 01:04:01.091 Yeah. 01:04:01.091 --> 01:04:02.411 But it's the same program. 01:04:02.891 --> 01:04:03.131 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:04:03.251 --> 01:04:03.252 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:04:03.251 --> 01:04:03.581 Yeah. 01:04:03.581 --> 01:04:06.801 I'm very fortunate to be able so it's like you're a 01:04:06.801 --> 01:04:09.051 Rupert Isaacson: tenured professor without having to go through the 01:04:09.051 --> 01:04:12.831 hassle of being a tenured professor in terms of publishing and grant writing. 01:04:12.831 --> 01:04:18.021 You, you can be, you, you get to play with ponies in a meaningful way. 01:04:18.571 --> 01:04:18.721 Well 01:04:18.721 --> 01:04:18.722 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:04:18.721 --> 01:04:22.021 actually I'm an adjunct clinical professor. 01:04:22.021 --> 01:04:22.471 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:04:22.846 --> 01:04:22.847 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:04:22.846 --> 01:04:25.436 So, assistant professor actually. 01:04:25.946 --> 01:04:30.146 And so we don't, we're not the tenure academic tenure track we're, I 01:04:30.146 --> 01:04:32.336 Rupert Isaacson: understand, but it's, yeah, its a bit like 01:04:32.516 --> 01:04:33.686 being, ones a whole different 01:04:34.616 --> 01:04:34.617 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:04:34.616 --> 01:04:36.176 set of Yeah. 01:04:37.076 --> 01:04:38.006 It's like the benefits 01:04:38.006 --> 01:04:40.081 Rupert Isaacson: of it in a funny way without the, the, the schlep. 01:04:40.391 --> 01:04:41.041 It's good. 01:04:41.041 --> 01:04:41.401 Exactly. 01:04:41.786 --> 01:04:42.326 Yeah. 01:04:42.416 --> 01:04:42.417 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:04:42.416 --> 01:04:42.836 Yeah. 01:04:42.836 --> 01:04:48.716 I I, I've really benefited from being at Stanford, going through Stanford 01:04:49.346 --> 01:04:49.586 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:04:49.586 --> 01:04:52.646 And Stanford, you know, has, has led the way in so many things. 01:04:52.706 --> 01:04:53.816 It's, it's so interesting. 01:04:53.816 --> 01:04:55.796 I think that many of us in. 01:04:56.591 --> 01:05:02.621 Other parts of the Western world don't know really how much of our modern life is 01:05:02.621 --> 01:05:07.661 affected by what has gone on at Stanford University in the last, you know, 60, 70 01:05:07.661 --> 01:05:12.891 years, you know, from the counterculture to, you know, the studies into compassion, 01:05:12.891 --> 01:05:17.871 to the, you know, studies in computer science to birthing Silicon Valley, 01:05:17.871 --> 01:05:19.821 which basically birthed out of Stanford. 01:05:19.821 --> 01:05:20.901 It sort of is Stanford really. 01:05:20.901 --> 01:05:21.291 It's just, yeah. 01:05:21.306 --> 01:05:21.307 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:05:21.306 --> 01:05:22.066 Fairchild, Stanford, 01:05:22.161 --> 01:05:27.431 Rupert Isaacson: all boys club, you know, and it's, it's very, I I, I think 01:05:27.431 --> 01:05:33.431 Stanford University has shaped modern thinking in a way that's disproportionate 01:05:33.431 --> 01:05:38.271 in the way that say Oxford or Cambridge probably did in previous generations. 01:05:38.631 --> 01:05:38.721 Mm-hmm. 01:05:39.141 --> 01:05:42.731 Now, let me with, with that, bring something that. 01:05:43.166 --> 01:05:45.416 Bring us back to something that you said just a few minutes ago. 01:05:45.746 --> 01:05:52.256 You said that recent events in science in the USA has turned scientific philosophy 01:05:52.586 --> 01:05:56.126 on its head, and my ears pricked up and went, Ooh, that sounds good. 01:05:56.126 --> 01:05:57.236 Let's talk about that. 01:05:57.536 --> 01:05:58.616 What do you mean by that? 01:05:58.916 --> 01:05:59.666 Tell us about it. 01:06:00.536 --> 01:06:00.537 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:06:00.536 --> 01:06:03.556 Well, I really don't want to get into politics, but you know, 01:06:03.556 --> 01:06:08.656 what's happened is that the Centers for Disease Control has been 01:06:08.836 --> 01:06:09.586 Rupert Isaacson: the CDC. 01:06:09.651 --> 01:06:09.652 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:06:09.651 --> 01:06:13.936 So the CDC, the National Institutes of Health have been, 01:06:13.996 --> 01:06:15.766 there've been huge cutbacks. 01:06:16.066 --> 01:06:16.126 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:06:16.276 --> 01:06:16.277 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:06:16.276 --> 01:06:17.176 Huge changes. 01:06:17.176 --> 01:06:21.436 A lot of people who don't have medical or scientific backgrounds have been 01:06:22.246 --> 01:06:24.526 installed in positions of leadership. 01:06:24.956 --> 01:06:27.326 Rupert Isaacson: I think in, in other countries they call those commissars. 01:06:28.016 --> 01:06:28.286 Yeah. 01:06:28.536 --> 01:06:28.537 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:06:28.536 --> 01:06:29.406 Yeah. 01:06:29.856 --> 01:06:30.816 Yeah, yeah. 01:06:31.326 --> 01:06:36.276 So it's just, it's thrown everything into disruption in terms of 01:06:36.276 --> 01:06:37.776 what we thought we knew about. 01:06:38.391 --> 01:06:45.141 You know, vaccines and there's been a, a huge resurgence of measles outbreaks in 01:06:45.141 --> 01:06:47.331 the United States, especially in Texas. 01:06:47.631 --> 01:06:47.661 Mm. 01:06:48.421 --> 01:06:53.701 As the anti-vaxxers have risen to ascendancy in the 01:06:53.701 --> 01:06:55.981 national health institutions. 01:06:56.731 --> 01:07:03.331 So it's just, you know, it, it, it's like a co I I, I look at it as co 01:07:03.331 --> 01:07:09.331 capelli, you know, the trickster making us sit back and think about, well, 01:07:09.331 --> 01:07:11.341 what do we really know about science? 01:07:11.611 --> 01:07:13.081 What do we really believe? 01:07:13.591 --> 01:07:15.271 What's really true? 01:07:15.541 --> 01:07:22.021 Sh you know, how do we prove things to ourselves and to the scientific 01:07:22.021 --> 01:07:25.321 community and to the public health Popul? 01:07:25.626 --> 01:07:26.131 How do you think, 01:07:26.761 --> 01:07:28.621 Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I, I think we could, we, we can certainly know what 01:07:28.621 --> 01:07:30.541 the problems might be at this point, but. 01:07:32.551 --> 01:07:35.371 And you know, it's easy to understand how the anti-vax thing got going 01:07:35.371 --> 01:07:37.801 because you know, when big pharma just keeps throwing more and more 01:07:37.801 --> 01:07:41.801 of them at you it's, you, it, it's going to create a counter movement. 01:07:41.801 --> 01:07:42.731 It just is, you know? 01:07:42.791 --> 01:07:44.921 And they should have seen that one coming, I think. 01:07:45.391 --> 01:07:51.151 But if philosophy of science has been turned on its head, that also means 01:07:51.151 --> 01:07:54.181 that must be, it must be happening in some really good, positive ways too. 01:07:54.871 --> 01:07:55.861 What do you. 01:07:57.121 --> 01:08:00.941 In the words of the Great Lou Reed it's easy enough to tell 01:08:01.031 --> 01:08:04.031 what is wrong, but that's not what I want to hear all night long. 01:08:05.891 --> 01:08:07.121 Let's talk about and take some 01:08:07.436 --> 01:08:07.437 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:08:07.436 --> 01:08:08.076 heroin in. 01:08:08.376 --> 01:08:08.916 Rupert Isaacson: That's right. 01:08:09.136 --> 01:08:12.851 I'm, I'm a, I'm, I'm the eternal optimist and I, I, I think a lot of what's 01:08:12.851 --> 01:08:14.801 going on is, is actually very positive. 01:08:15.391 --> 01:08:18.721 I'm also very optimistic about ai, you know, which a lot of people are not. 01:08:19.151 --> 01:08:22.301 'Cause I feel that a lot of the really horrific things that have 01:08:22.301 --> 01:08:25.751 been done that we're afraid that AI would do, we're sort of forgetting. 01:08:25.811 --> 01:08:27.491 No, that's, that's us that do that. 01:08:27.731 --> 01:08:32.411 When we've done about 10,000 years of genocide and atrocity. 01:08:32.411 --> 01:08:36.851 So if, if AI is going to just do that again, that's actually business as usual. 01:08:36.851 --> 01:08:38.411 That's no different. 01:08:38.801 --> 01:08:42.161 But it might do something different, I feel, because we are 01:08:42.161 --> 01:08:47.831 also a very loving species that's always forgotten and that we. 01:08:48.206 --> 01:08:52.736 The people writing those programs are not, or are not evil. 01:08:53.196 --> 01:08:57.576 There may be people who are evil who are trying to control them, but it's 01:08:57.576 --> 01:09:02.946 rather like the horse, you can use it to commit a genocide and many genocides 01:09:02.946 --> 01:09:07.716 have been committed on the backs of horses, or you can use it to heal the 01:09:07.716 --> 01:09:10.026 horse will lend you its power either way. 01:09:10.516 --> 01:09:13.876 But we seem to have arrived at a point where fewer genocides are being committed 01:09:13.876 --> 01:09:19.166 on the backs of horses and more people are using, harnessing that power for healing. 01:09:19.586 --> 01:09:24.326 Although it's taken us a few millennial to get there perhaps AI is going to 01:09:24.326 --> 01:09:25.706 accelerate that and other walks of life. 01:09:25.706 --> 01:09:29.336 But in back in terms of this sort of scientific philosophy, I'm, I'm 01:09:29.336 --> 01:09:32.486 interested because this is all affected by you, you, you, you've referred, 01:09:32.486 --> 01:09:36.116 you've used the word quantum a few times in this conversation, right? 01:09:37.346 --> 01:09:39.456 Well, in quantum being potential. 01:09:39.486 --> 01:09:39.906 Really? 01:09:40.506 --> 01:09:40.866 Yeah. 01:09:41.541 --> 01:09:46.461 So you must have thoughts on where all that is going. 01:09:46.461 --> 01:09:46.551 Mm-hmm. 01:09:47.241 --> 01:09:50.691 You've been involved in computer science, you've been involved in allopathic 01:09:50.691 --> 01:09:53.161 medicine from various viewpoints. 01:09:53.161 --> 01:09:57.811 You've been involved in Silicon Valley, you've been involved in the types of 01:09:57.811 --> 01:10:01.981 companies that were beginning to, as, as you said, you know, the word artificial 01:10:01.981 --> 01:10:06.591 intelligence which is deeply tied in with the whole quantum thing has been 01:10:06.591 --> 01:10:10.641 around, you know, since World War ii, but of course has massively accelerated. 01:10:10.851 --> 01:10:13.071 You've had a bit of a front row seat of all this. 01:10:13.491 --> 01:10:14.331 What are your thoughts? 01:10:14.331 --> 01:10:15.471 Where are we, where's it all going? 01:10:19.371 --> 01:10:19.372 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:10:19.371 --> 01:10:27.411 I'm very hopeful that artificial intelligence will 01:10:27.411 --> 01:10:29.181 be a, a, a positive force. 01:10:29.211 --> 01:10:30.831 I, I think that can happen. 01:10:31.551 --> 01:10:32.241 I think. 01:10:33.246 --> 01:10:37.836 In the cycles of history that we've seen in the world, we've seen, you know, horses 01:10:37.836 --> 01:10:40.746 used for war and horses used on farms. 01:10:41.706 --> 01:10:50.326 And now horses are mostly very beloved animals that seem to have emerged. 01:10:50.326 --> 01:10:54.466 They survived and they emerged in a very positive, in a very positive 01:10:54.466 --> 01:10:57.166 way, at least for all of us. 01:10:57.886 --> 01:11:03.826 One important facet we haven't touched on in my background is parapsychology. 01:11:03.916 --> 01:11:04.276 Rupert Isaacson: Go on then. 01:11:05.026 --> 01:11:05.027 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:11:05.026 --> 01:11:10.756 I have always been interested in and somewhat active in parapsychology. 01:11:10.756 --> 01:11:17.836 We had a group called the San Francisco Parapsychology Research Group and. 01:11:18.706 --> 01:11:22.336 People related to that group who are interested in consciousness. 01:11:23.596 --> 01:11:29.356 And when you consider the subject of ai, you have to 01:11:29.356 --> 01:11:31.906 consider consciousness and Okay. 01:11:32.866 --> 01:11:34.216 And whether, okay, so 01:11:34.636 --> 01:11:36.316 Rupert Isaacson: define parapsychology first. 01:11:36.316 --> 01:11:38.326 So we know the terms that we're dealing with here. 01:11:38.746 --> 01:11:38.747 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:11:38.746 --> 01:11:39.166 Right. 01:11:40.006 --> 01:11:40.396 Paras. 01:11:40.546 --> 01:11:48.016 Oh, parapsychology is the field that studies, and this is a little bit 01:11:48.016 --> 01:11:52.786 of a circular reasoning, circular definition, paranormal phenomenon 01:11:52.786 --> 01:11:53.536 such as extrasensory perception, 01:11:55.816 --> 01:11:58.856 telepathy animal communication. 01:11:58.856 --> 01:11:59.666 Certainly. 01:12:01.436 --> 01:12:03.266 Rupert Isaacson: Why did you become interested in this? 01:12:03.266 --> 01:12:05.816 Were you interested in this before you got involved in horses, for example? 01:12:05.906 --> 01:12:05.907 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:12:05.906 --> 01:12:06.356 Oh, absolutely. 01:12:06.356 --> 01:12:07.886 My mom was a big. 01:12:08.231 --> 01:12:10.451 Believer in extrasensory perception. 01:12:10.571 --> 01:12:16.331 And every time there was a synchronicity or we arrived at the same thought, somehow 01:12:16.331 --> 01:12:20.201 she would say that's ESP also dreams. 01:12:20.561 --> 01:12:23.801 We would sit around the table in the morning and talk about 01:12:23.801 --> 01:12:25.481 our dreams every single day. 01:12:25.841 --> 01:12:25.901 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:12:25.901 --> 01:12:25.961 So 01:12:26.561 --> 01:12:26.562 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:12:26.561 --> 01:12:29.921 there was, and there was an aspect of dreaming that was precognitive 01:12:30.701 --> 01:12:36.431 and there was an aspect of dreaming that was metaphysical, spiritual. 01:12:37.911 --> 01:12:39.801 And, and some, some just mundane. 01:12:40.281 --> 01:12:45.651 So when you talk about ai, we have to consider consciousness 01:12:45.651 --> 01:12:53.661 and what all the manifestations of consciousness are in humans and in 01:12:53.661 --> 01:12:57.981 other animals and even plants and even possibly rocks and trees and. 01:12:59.031 --> 01:12:59.796 Inanimate the 01:12:59.796 --> 01:13:01.551 Rupert Isaacson: c the conscious universe, effectively 01:13:01.641 --> 01:13:01.642 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:13:01.641 --> 01:13:02.691 the conscious universe. 01:13:02.691 --> 01:13:03.111 Yeah. 01:13:03.451 --> 01:13:03.871 Ru put Dr. 01:13:03.876 --> 01:13:05.676 Rupert Isaacson: Rupert Shel Drake's work and that 01:13:05.736 --> 01:13:05.737 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:13:05.736 --> 01:13:06.556 Rupert Sheldrake. 01:13:06.691 --> 01:13:07.081 Yeah. 01:13:07.081 --> 01:13:08.451 And Ahed Ka Swami. 01:13:08.811 --> 01:13:08.961 Mm-hmm. 01:13:09.381 --> 01:13:12.981 The has a book called the, he's a, a quantum physicist and a Vedic 01:13:12.981 --> 01:13:17.541 scholar who has a book called The Self-Aware Universe, how Consciousness 01:13:17.541 --> 01:13:19.401 Creates the Material World. 01:13:19.821 --> 01:13:21.951 One a, a life-changing book for me. 01:13:21.951 --> 01:13:23.991 I'm reading it for the fourth time right now. 01:13:25.431 --> 01:13:32.151 So, and, and it's interesting because Alan Touring, who was one of the fathers 01:13:32.151 --> 01:13:40.941 of artificial intelligence, he wrote a paper in 1952, I believe it was that. 01:13:41.706 --> 01:13:46.686 Countered all the objections to artificial intelligence being real. 01:13:47.256 --> 01:13:51.666 You know, at the time people were dismissing the idea that machines 01:13:51.666 --> 01:13:55.656 could be intelligent or that could show any form of intelligence. 01:13:56.346 --> 01:13:59.766 And he countered all the objections except one. 01:14:00.606 --> 01:14:07.986 And the, the objection that he couldn't counter was the objection from ESP, 01:14:08.496 --> 01:14:10.326 it, it's called the ninth objection. 01:14:10.326 --> 01:14:12.096 'cause it was the ninth one he dealt with. 01:14:12.186 --> 01:14:19.416 And that was the idea that computers could demonstrate psychic abilities. 01:14:20.436 --> 01:14:24.216 So, so that's, that's a question that I have. 01:14:24.606 --> 01:14:28.496 I think you know, will they ever be able to communicate psychically with horses? 01:14:28.526 --> 01:14:32.756 You know, will they ever be successful animal communicators? 01:14:32.816 --> 01:14:34.466 Which I heartily believe in. 01:14:34.466 --> 01:14:39.491 I've had wonderful experiences with animal communicators and. 01:14:40.181 --> 01:14:42.401 Computers are now quantum systems. 01:14:42.491 --> 01:14:47.741 And Quantum Theory offers models, and I, I wanna emphasize that 01:14:47.741 --> 01:14:55.331 they're models, they're not proofs of how paranormal phenomena might 01:14:55.331 --> 01:14:58.721 exist outside of space and time. 01:14:59.901 --> 01:15:03.441 Because, you know, classical yeah, I, I won't get into a 01:15:03.681 --> 01:15:05.241 technical discussion of all this. 01:15:05.301 --> 01:15:07.041 Please do, but, okay. 01:15:07.641 --> 01:15:14.931 So, so classical physics, that the Newtonian physics is based on the 01:15:14.931 --> 01:15:16.821 idea that everything's predictable. 01:15:17.001 --> 01:15:19.311 That the, the world functions like a machine. 01:15:20.061 --> 01:15:27.231 If you know the initial conditions of a planet or a car or a ball, 01:15:27.711 --> 01:15:31.011 then you can predict its behavior. 01:15:32.121 --> 01:15:39.771 So, so, classical physics is deterministic in that way, and materialistic in that 01:15:39.771 --> 01:15:41.721 it believes that everything is matter. 01:15:43.971 --> 01:15:52.071 Quantum physics is not deterministic because due to certain principles 01:15:52.071 --> 01:15:58.641 such as the the uncertainty principle, you can never know for sure the 01:15:58.641 --> 01:16:00.351 initial conditions of a system. 01:16:00.351 --> 01:16:02.871 So you can never predict where it's going to go. 01:16:03.501 --> 01:16:08.781 And mathematically, at least, and functionally with subatomic 01:16:09.116 --> 01:16:15.231 particles in experimental physics, time goes forward and backward. 01:16:16.371 --> 01:16:20.271 There are quantum leaps between states with no, 01:16:21.231 --> 01:16:22.101 Rupert Isaacson: interim process. 01:16:22.491 --> 01:16:22.731 Yeah. 01:16:22.821 --> 01:16:22.822 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:16:22.821 --> 01:16:23.211 No, no. 01:16:23.211 --> 01:16:24.681 Pro, yeah, no intermediate states. 01:16:24.681 --> 01:16:27.441 You don't know the electrons here and then it's there and you don't know 01:16:27.471 --> 01:16:30.711 where it's been, and you only have probabilities of where things are. 01:16:30.711 --> 01:16:32.901 So it's a very probabilistic 01:16:33.201 --> 01:16:35.001 Rupert Isaacson: What is the uncertainty principle? 01:16:35.901 --> 01:16:35.902 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:16:35.901 --> 01:16:40.311 The uncertainty principle says that you can determine with great 01:16:40.311 --> 01:16:46.161 accuracy either the position or the momentum of a particle. 01:16:46.911 --> 01:16:52.311 If you know a lot about the momentum, the position becomes 01:16:52.641 --> 01:16:55.161 almost unknowable and vice versa. 01:16:55.431 --> 01:16:57.741 So you can know one or the other, but not both. 01:16:57.831 --> 01:16:58.191 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:16:58.191 --> 01:16:58.671 Interesting. 01:16:58.676 --> 01:17:03.086 As you may know, if you've been following my work, we are also horsey folk here. 01:17:03.591 --> 01:17:08.081 And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of 01:17:08.131 --> 01:17:11.291 the old classical dressage masters. 01:17:11.721 --> 01:17:14.511 This is something which is often very confusing for people. 01:17:14.901 --> 01:17:19.901 We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear. 01:17:20.161 --> 01:17:24.991 If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and 01:17:24.991 --> 01:17:30.791 really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony. 01:17:30.791 --> 01:17:33.121 com Sign up as a premium member. 01:17:33.441 --> 01:17:37.451 and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero 01:17:37.921 --> 01:17:43.051 to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground. 01:17:43.641 --> 01:17:47.351 And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to. 01:17:48.311 --> 01:17:49.051 Heliosharmony. 01:17:49.561 --> 01:17:53.231 com to unlock the secrets of the old masters. 01:17:53.636 --> 01:17:53.637 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:17:53.636 --> 01:17:57.171 So, so you cannot determine the initial conditions. 01:17:57.651 --> 01:18:04.011 And in quantum mechanics, every, everything kind of exists outside of 01:18:04.011 --> 01:18:08.121 space time, that especially Gus Swami's. 01:18:08.526 --> 01:18:13.116 The thesis is that matter is not the primary substance. 01:18:13.176 --> 01:18:14.226 Consciousness is. 01:18:14.226 --> 01:18:14.316 Right. 01:18:14.436 --> 01:18:19.236 And there's, there's a, a mystical, well, no, I, I wouldn't say mystical, but 01:18:19.236 --> 01:18:25.636 there's a, a whole body of information called the Seth material where Seth, 01:18:25.936 --> 01:18:31.616 who is a channeled entity that I believe has a high degree of accuracy from his 01:18:31.616 --> 01:18:36.176 channeler says he kind of the same thing, that every, everything is conscious. 01:18:36.236 --> 01:18:37.766 Everything is a consciousness unit. 01:18:38.246 --> 01:18:40.976 Rupert Isaacson: There's a right and there's a growing body of physicists. 01:18:41.426 --> 01:18:41.427 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:18:41.426 --> 01:18:43.256 Yeah, yeah. 01:18:43.406 --> 01:18:46.671 Rupert Isaacson: And computer people subscribing to this view, it seems. 01:18:46.811 --> 01:18:51.026 That's what I was hoping we'd get to when you said philosophy's being turned 01:18:51.026 --> 01:18:55.046 on its head because the political climate is something historical. 01:18:55.046 --> 01:18:58.796 Those things ebb and flow, you know, what can you say? 01:18:59.036 --> 01:19:02.996 But the f philosophical movements predict the future. 01:19:03.776 --> 01:19:08.816 One could argue that Newton was not deterministic. 01:19:08.816 --> 01:19:13.856 That, that there was a side of him that was very interested in determinism 01:19:13.856 --> 01:19:16.046 and apples falling from trees. 01:19:16.046 --> 01:19:20.186 And so he, but being a good polymath, you know, he was interested 01:19:20.186 --> 01:19:21.176 in lots of other things too. 01:19:21.176 --> 01:19:26.066 And it's often conveniently overlooked that the, there's a 01:19:26.066 --> 01:19:28.916 vast body of his work on alchemy. 01:19:29.906 --> 01:19:34.506 And of course, by the time, and some people would say he was 01:19:34.506 --> 01:19:36.126 primarily an Al Al Alchemist. 01:19:36.131 --> 01:19:39.156 I, I know certain scholars and historians who would say just based on 01:19:39.156 --> 01:19:42.636 what he published, that he published more on that than he did on the other. 01:19:43.236 --> 01:19:44.616 He was also deeply religious. 01:19:45.666 --> 01:19:50.856 But he, so the esoteric and, and the scientific together were clearly no. 01:19:52.026 --> 01:19:53.616 Mismatch for, for him. 01:19:53.986 --> 01:19:58.666 And it's interesting that we now interpret with the kind of fundamentalism people 01:19:58.666 --> 01:20:02.416 like him like it's, it's forgotten that, you know, all the people that 01:20:02.416 --> 01:20:07.126 hate evolution, the, the Christian conservatives or, or forget that Darwin 01:20:07.126 --> 01:20:09.256 was a very, very, very devout Christian. 01:20:09.256 --> 01:20:12.196 You know, and you know, it's, it's very interesting what 01:20:12.196 --> 01:20:13.726 people choose to, to dwell on. 01:20:14.196 --> 01:20:15.516 That of course is political. 01:20:15.966 --> 01:20:21.396 And of course with alchemy, by the time the chemical wedding, et cetera, 01:20:21.396 --> 01:20:24.996 by, by the time Newton was writing about that sort of thing, it was 01:20:24.996 --> 01:20:30.756 partly still looking for transation of led into gold and, and you know, 01:20:30.816 --> 01:20:32.106 the philosopher stone and all that. 01:20:32.106 --> 01:20:37.176 But it was, it had, it had already taken a leap in the decades before 01:20:37.176 --> 01:20:46.966 that into a spiritual, psychological purification analogy that people like. 01:20:47.731 --> 01:20:51.421 Newton, even as they fooled around with the experiments, trying to see if it 01:20:51.421 --> 01:20:56.491 was possible to ub substantiate, were actually seemed primarily interested 01:20:56.491 --> 01:20:58.891 in the philosophical side of it. 01:20:59.001 --> 01:21:03.141 And went on to do determinism sort of in their spare time almost. 01:21:03.411 --> 01:21:08.021 And and now the deterministic thing is, is what we remember them as. 01:21:08.071 --> 01:21:11.131 But I think if he was sitting here in this room, he'd say, no, listen, you know, 01:21:11.131 --> 01:21:13.531 I, I was interested in loads of things, you know, look, look at all that stuff 01:21:13.531 --> 01:21:15.871 I published on all that woo woo stuff. 01:21:16.321 --> 01:21:26.551 So I I I is it now though that we suddenly are able to somehow observe 01:21:26.551 --> 01:21:34.441 and measure within the university peer review scientific context, this idea of 01:21:34.441 --> 01:21:41.761 consciousness within machines and within micro states of matter, like neutrinos, 01:21:42.181 --> 01:21:44.416 like things that we can't quite. 01:21:45.811 --> 01:21:52.921 Grab, they're too small, but they seem to bend the laws or physics and exist between 01:21:52.921 --> 01:21:57.571 them, or go from one state of being to another without, as you say, a sort of 01:21:57.571 --> 01:22:02.761 in observable, interim, intermediate, think they disappear and disappear. 01:22:02.761 --> 01:22:05.671 And that appears to be, they used to be a word for that, didn't there? 01:22:05.671 --> 01:22:06.571 It used to be magic. 01:22:07.261 --> 01:22:07.441 Mm-hmm. 01:22:07.681 --> 01:22:11.371 And I guess there's, there's also this sort of old adage 01:22:11.371 --> 01:22:15.571 that pseudoscience is just time. 01:22:15.661 --> 01:22:19.941 That's my, there's the future coming into the room there and the and 01:22:20.241 --> 01:22:22.791 you know, because everything is pseudoscience until someone comes 01:22:22.791 --> 01:22:24.951 along and gets it accepted as science. 01:22:24.951 --> 01:22:25.221 Right. 01:22:25.251 --> 01:22:30.041 And every good scientist has been laughed at ridiculed as I'm being now. 01:22:30.551 --> 01:22:31.501 And but. 01:22:32.506 --> 01:22:37.366 I do think, do you not think that we have suddenly arrived at a point where 01:22:38.836 --> 01:22:46.906 the determination purists, who would be like the scientific equivalent today 01:22:46.906 --> 01:22:48.436 of the Spanish Inquisition in the past? 01:22:48.436 --> 01:22:49.966 It's the new fundamentalism, isn't it? 01:22:50.116 --> 01:22:58.246 Sciences is, as opposed to re religion are now finding their pers 01:22:58.246 --> 01:23:04.366 shaken in the same way that the old church dudes were finding it, theirs 01:23:04.366 --> 01:23:06.346 shaken around the time of Newton. 01:23:06.466 --> 01:23:06.916 You know? 01:23:07.026 --> 01:23:10.356 And Newton might say, well, it's the same old thing, you know, so 01:23:10.986 --> 01:23:14.196 you have, you, you talk about this principle of uncertainty, right? 01:23:14.196 --> 01:23:19.176 And then you've talked about states of matter that behave in, in ways 01:23:19.176 --> 01:23:26.816 that are so unpredictable that and that they seem indistinguishable from. 01:23:27.416 --> 01:23:29.966 Things that are indeterminate, like consciousness. 01:23:30.506 --> 01:23:30.716 Mm-hmm. 01:23:31.406 --> 01:23:32.876 Where are we going with all that? 01:23:32.876 --> 01:23:38.216 How's this going to, how, how's this, what gonna, how's Stanford gonna 01:23:39.716 --> 01:23:44.856 produce this tangibly in our, in our lives in the next 10, 20 years? 01:23:47.136 --> 01:23:47.137 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:23:47.136 --> 01:23:48.306 I don't know. 01:23:48.546 --> 01:23:52.746 There's certainly a lot written about consciousness now that 01:23:52.746 --> 01:23:55.836 AI is being hyped so much. 01:23:56.266 --> 01:23:57.706 Or not, not a lot. 01:23:58.016 --> 01:24:03.656 There was an article I read just yesterday that I had high hopes for about whether, 01:24:03.661 --> 01:24:10.226 you know, it asks that, the headline, that the title is, can Ai Ever Be Conscious? 01:24:10.526 --> 01:24:16.226 And then you read the article and it's talking about experiments with. 01:24:17.441 --> 01:24:22.181 People who have strokes or who are under anesthesia and they're looking at 01:24:22.181 --> 01:24:24.341 consciousness as a function of the brain. 01:24:24.341 --> 01:24:26.891 They're looking at magnetic resonance. 01:24:27.651 --> 01:24:31.461 And they're looking at EEGs, and I'm like, no, you can't look at 01:24:31.461 --> 01:24:33.951 consciousness using machines that way. 01:24:33.956 --> 01:24:35.511 Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's the old approach, isn't it? 01:24:35.511 --> 01:24:39.501 Saying that consciousness is a product of the mind rather than the mind 01:24:39.501 --> 01:24:40.851 being a product of consciousness. 01:24:40.851 --> 01:24:41.091 Yeah, 01:24:41.541 --> 01:24:41.542 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:24:41.541 --> 01:24:41.871 right. 01:24:41.871 --> 01:24:47.031 There are two kinds of people in this world, the epiphenomenon, that say that 01:24:47.601 --> 01:24:54.771 consciousness is an epiphenomenon or a product of the biochemical brain. 01:24:55.161 --> 01:25:00.861 And people like Amit Sami, who are the consciousness primary people of 01:25:00.861 --> 01:25:04.311 whom I'm one two, which is saying that consciousness is primary 01:25:04.371 --> 01:25:10.371 and may even have created somehow through energetic manipulation. 01:25:11.226 --> 01:25:13.686 All the things that we consider material. 01:25:14.196 --> 01:25:14.316 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:25:14.321 --> 01:25:14.322 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:25:14.321 --> 01:25:19.626 I I think that one, one really exciting development, which isn't all that recent, 01:25:19.746 --> 01:25:26.846 was the Allen aspect an aspect Frenchman who basically is the father of quantum 01:25:26.846 --> 01:25:37.106 entanglement, which is the phenomenon whereby two electrons that are once 01:25:37.106 --> 01:25:39.086 together and then they're separated. 01:25:39.896 --> 01:25:47.216 When you make a measurement on one electron, it changes the second one in 01:25:47.216 --> 01:25:51.956 a way that's fa, where the, it's faster than light, and the speed of light 01:25:51.956 --> 01:25:56.936 was the einsteinian limit on any kind of signaling or information transfer. 01:25:57.626 --> 01:26:03.536 And so that limit has been violated and that's what I'm personally most excited 01:26:03.536 --> 01:26:06.861 about because it would seem to explain. 01:26:07.916 --> 01:26:13.466 Telepathy precognition you know, there were experiments. 01:26:13.466 --> 01:26:18.216 The, one of the, the moonshots had an ES a a telepathy or a parent 01:26:18.246 --> 01:26:22.146 A ESP experiment award, and it's 01:26:22.146 --> 01:26:22.306 Rupert Isaacson: been shown. 01:26:22.331 --> 01:26:23.376 What are the moonshots? 01:26:23.376 --> 01:26:23.946 What's that? 01:26:23.946 --> 01:26:24.006 The, 01:26:24.591 --> 01:26:24.592 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:26:24.591 --> 01:26:29.066 the, the space, space vehicles that went to the moon. 01:26:29.456 --> 01:26:29.756 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:26:29.816 --> 01:26:29.817 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:26:29.816 --> 01:26:33.626 They had, they had, as one of their experiments an ESP experiment that showed 01:26:33.626 --> 01:26:40.166 that even as far away as the moon is, the ESP signal doesn't deteriorate the way, 01:26:40.466 --> 01:26:42.896 say a magnetic field would deteriorate. 01:26:43.316 --> 01:26:44.786 Rupert Isaacson: How do you measure the ESP signal? 01:26:46.166 --> 01:26:46.167 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:26:46.166 --> 01:26:48.656 Well, it's not a signal, it's just the phenomenon. 01:26:48.686 --> 01:26:49.646 Can, can. 01:26:50.471 --> 01:26:51.371 There were targets. 01:26:51.371 --> 01:26:54.401 It's a, it's a a little bit complex to explain, but there are, there are 01:26:54.401 --> 01:26:57.611 targets in, in the most simple form. 01:26:58.031 --> 01:26:59.291 I'm in the spaceship. 01:26:59.291 --> 01:27:06.761 I take a picture of a horse and I get to the moon and I look at the 01:27:06.761 --> 01:27:12.731 picture and somebody on the earth is trying to see, see what I'm seeing. 01:27:14.141 --> 01:27:14.771 And, 01:27:14.831 --> 01:27:16.541 Rupert Isaacson: ah, you're talking about remote viewing? 01:27:16.601 --> 01:27:16.602 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:27:16.601 --> 01:27:17.711 Remote viewing, yeah. 01:27:18.146 --> 01:27:18.436 Okay. 01:27:18.441 --> 01:27:18.851 Okay. 01:27:18.851 --> 01:27:19.721 So just a little 01:27:19.721 --> 01:27:23.201 Rupert Isaacson: aside for people who dunno what that is, right? 01:27:23.951 --> 01:27:26.981 You heard of a little old organization called the CI or just mm-hmm. 01:27:27.941 --> 01:27:28.421 Yeah. 01:27:28.421 --> 01:27:28.481 The 01:27:28.696 --> 01:27:28.697 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:27:28.696 --> 01:27:29.696 CIA was involved Project 01:27:29.696 --> 01:27:29.936 Rupert Isaacson: Gateway. 01:27:30.626 --> 01:27:30.976 Right. 01:27:30.976 --> 01:27:35.951 They, they put a lot of effort into this in the over, well probably still are but 01:27:36.041 --> 01:27:39.431 only what we has been published Project Gateway where they were doing remote 01:27:39.431 --> 01:27:44.331 viewing not only over large spaces of. 01:27:45.261 --> 01:27:51.831 Space, but over time, and they seem to have been doing it quite successfully. 01:27:52.401 --> 01:27:52.851 Of course. 01:27:52.851 --> 01:27:56.541 Doing it for intelligence, that that's what you're talking about, right. 01:27:56.601 --> 01:27:57.351 More or less, right? 01:27:57.711 --> 01:27:57.712 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:27:57.711 --> 01:27:58.071 Yeah. 01:27:58.191 --> 01:28:01.491 I don't think the moon experiment was the CIA experiment. 01:28:01.491 --> 01:28:06.151 'cause that person Russell Tar is right here, a couple of towns over 01:28:06.151 --> 01:28:11.101 in Palo Alto, and that was done through the SRI, which was also 01:28:11.101 --> 01:28:13.021 known as Stanford Research Institute. 01:28:13.051 --> 01:28:15.511 But really, I don't think anything to do with Stanford. 01:28:15.511 --> 01:28:15.751 But 01:28:15.811 --> 01:28:19.111 Rupert Isaacson: how did they, how did they manage to remote view or, 01:28:19.111 --> 01:28:22.381 or confirm, say whether they were remote viewing at the Stanford? 01:28:22.381 --> 01:28:22.471 Well, 01:28:22.471 --> 01:28:22.472 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:28:22.471 --> 01:28:25.651 as I say, it's a, it's a little more complex because they, the 01:28:25.651 --> 01:28:29.971 target is generated by a random number generator in a computer. 01:28:29.976 --> 01:28:30.366 Mm-hmm. 01:28:30.626 --> 01:28:34.166 And then there's a, a. 01:28:36.001 --> 01:28:39.901 The, the, there's the, the target person, which is the person on the moon 01:28:40.201 --> 01:28:46.561 and the viewer, which is the person on earth, and the viewer will draw what 01:28:46.561 --> 01:28:50.671 she sees from the person on the moon. 01:28:51.091 --> 01:28:58.861 And then that drawing is given to a separate panel of judges. 01:28:58.861 --> 01:28:59.041 I'm just 01:28:59.041 --> 01:29:00.961 Rupert Isaacson: wondering what the person on the moon is seeing, you know, 01:29:00.961 --> 01:29:02.251 other than like, well, whatever the 01:29:02.251 --> 01:29:02.252 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:29:02.251 --> 01:29:08.781 target, whatever the, the and I, this is the, that's the the protocol 01:29:08.781 --> 01:29:11.901 for the remote being experiments that Russell Targ did on earth. 01:29:11.901 --> 01:29:12.441 I don't. 01:29:12.771 --> 01:29:17.091 No, exactly what the protocol was for the ESP experiment 01:29:17.091 --> 01:29:18.741 on the moon, but in general. 01:29:18.951 --> 01:29:19.311 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:29:19.311 --> 01:29:19.611 The 01:29:19.611 --> 01:29:19.612 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:29:19.611 --> 01:29:23.931 remote viewing experiments, which is described, which are described 01:29:23.931 --> 01:29:27.791 in a book called mind Reach and Mind Raise by target and put off 01:29:29.841 --> 01:29:31.731 Russell Targe and Hal put off 01:29:32.331 --> 01:29:33.116 Rupert Isaacson: Hal Poff. 01:29:33.616 --> 01:29:34.036 Mm-hmm. 01:29:34.816 --> 01:29:35.676 That's a great name. 01:29:36.066 --> 01:29:36.356 Yeah. 01:29:36.696 --> 01:29:36.697 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:29:36.696 --> 01:29:37.396 Hog and put off. 01:29:37.586 --> 01:29:37.876 Okay. 01:29:37.906 --> 01:29:38.196 Yeah. 01:29:38.196 --> 01:29:42.301 And Russell's still very, very active in in Parapsychology locally. 01:29:43.561 --> 01:29:44.101 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:29:44.491 --> 01:29:47.251 So you, you are still involved in parapsychology, te te. 01:29:47.281 --> 01:29:48.901 Tell us what your involvement is there. 01:29:50.251 --> 01:29:50.252 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:29:50.251 --> 01:29:51.361 I'm not really anymore. 01:29:51.361 --> 01:29:58.081 I'm not doing experiments or participating in experiments, but it's just kind 01:29:58.081 --> 01:30:03.571 of having email discussions with my old buddies from the Parapsychology 01:30:03.571 --> 01:30:06.386 research group and kind of tuning in. 01:30:06.446 --> 01:30:06.691 But you 01:30:06.691 --> 01:30:09.391 Rupert Isaacson: were part of the parapsychology research group at Stanford. 01:30:10.021 --> 01:30:10.022 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:30:10.021 --> 01:30:12.121 You're this, this wasn't at Stanford. 01:30:12.121 --> 01:30:14.191 This was an independent organization. 01:30:14.281 --> 01:30:14.311 Okay. 01:30:14.311 --> 01:30:17.461 In San Francisco, the parapsychology research group 01:30:17.461 --> 01:30:19.081 had nothing to do with Stanford. 01:30:19.981 --> 01:30:20.341 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:30:20.431 --> 01:30:20.881 Okay. 01:30:21.151 --> 01:30:25.171 So when, when you say you're not doing experiments anymore, 01:30:25.561 --> 01:30:26.641 does that mean that you were 01:30:27.931 --> 01:30:27.932 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:30:27.931 --> 01:30:32.461 I participated in some experiments way back when, where they put me in 01:30:32.461 --> 01:30:37.981 a Faraday cage and had me hold copper cylinders and things like that. 01:30:37.981 --> 01:30:40.111 I did funny things like that. 01:30:40.116 --> 01:30:40.306 Can you 01:30:41.071 --> 01:30:43.231 Rupert Isaacson: tell us a little bit more, that sounds ing No, I don't 01:30:43.231 --> 01:30:43.232 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:30:43.231 --> 01:30:43.681 remember. 01:30:43.681 --> 01:30:47.161 They, they, for one thing, they didn't tell me what I was doing at the time, 01:30:47.491 --> 01:30:54.301 but, but one thing that's interesting, a Faraday cage is a wire construct that 01:30:54.901 --> 01:30:57.811 filters out all electromagnetic signals. 01:30:58.291 --> 01:30:59.311 So. 01:31:00.031 --> 01:31:04.171 Whatever happens in a, in a Faraday cage and gets transmitted to the 01:31:04.171 --> 01:31:09.781 outside world, is assumed not to be based on electromagnetic transmission. 01:31:11.251 --> 01:31:15.961 And 'cause for a long time people thought ESP was a, an electromagnetic phenomenon. 01:31:15.961 --> 01:31:15.991 Okay. 01:31:16.411 --> 01:31:20.911 But the experiments in the Faraday cages proved that that wasn't so 01:31:21.721 --> 01:31:29.251 that ESP happened from here to the moon and within Faraday cages. 01:31:29.251 --> 01:31:31.111 So, so when the 01:31:31.291 --> 01:31:33.361 Rupert Isaacson: so is ESP, in fact quantum entanglement 01:31:33.721 --> 01:31:34.921 just on a human level? 01:31:37.291 --> 01:31:37.292 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:31:37.291 --> 01:31:38.251 I don't know. 01:31:38.251 --> 01:31:41.401 I mean, it could be, that's what exciting to me about the theories. 01:31:41.401 --> 01:31:47.401 Right now, quantum entanglement has only been demonstrated in a laboratory for. 01:31:47.791 --> 01:31:53.851 Subatomic particles, macro systems have not been shown to be quantum entangled. 01:31:54.121 --> 01:31:57.331 So even though we feel quantum entangled with our spouses and 01:31:57.331 --> 01:32:01.321 our horses and our cats, there's, there's no way to prove that. 01:32:01.651 --> 01:32:02.011 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:32:02.011 --> 01:32:06.211 But, but if, if microparticles have been shown Measured, yeah. 01:32:06.511 --> 01:32:10.291 We of course are composed of microparticles. 01:32:10.291 --> 01:32:10.616 Right, right. 01:32:10.681 --> 01:32:14.701 A macro system is, many tiny things come together to make a big thing. 01:32:15.091 --> 01:32:18.031 So there must be bits of us that are entangling here and there. 01:32:18.031 --> 01:32:18.361 No, 01:32:19.261 --> 01:32:19.262 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:32:19.261 --> 01:32:24.091 well, it could be, I mean, a lot of parapsychologists who, who I think are 01:32:24.301 --> 01:32:29.761 sort of materialistic in nature and, and epiphenomenal is it's say that the, 01:32:30.091 --> 01:32:35.821 that the quantum reactions happen in the microtubules of our brain cells. 01:32:35.851 --> 01:32:36.181 Right. 01:32:36.181 --> 01:32:37.861 Rupert Isaacson: This is what I was hoping you were gonna get to 01:32:37.861 --> 01:32:40.741 these, these recent studies that were published last year and Yeah. 01:32:41.551 --> 01:32:41.552 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:32:41.551 --> 01:32:41.701 The 01:32:41.701 --> 01:32:45.031 Rupert Isaacson: work of, of Penrose, you know, 40 years ago, right here. 01:32:45.031 --> 01:32:45.301 Yeah. 01:32:45.601 --> 01:32:46.951 What, so tell us about this. 01:32:47.881 --> 01:32:47.882 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:32:47.881 --> 01:32:52.951 I haven't studied it too much because on the surface it, it doesn't, I'm 01:32:52.951 --> 01:32:58.051 not really interested in the material basis for paranormal phenomena. 01:32:58.141 --> 01:32:58.291 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:32:58.561 --> 01:32:58.562 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:32:58.561 --> 01:33:04.231 I don't, I don't see that empirically, it improves what we do because the idea 01:33:04.231 --> 01:33:05.941 with all this is to get better at it. 01:33:06.001 --> 01:33:07.111 Anybody can do it. 01:33:07.111 --> 01:33:11.161 Anybody can do animal communication up to a point, just like anybody 01:33:11.161 --> 01:33:13.291 can, you know, walk a mile. 01:33:13.291 --> 01:33:16.321 But not everybody's going to win the Boston Marathon. 01:33:16.801 --> 01:33:22.111 Anybody can, can learn to do animal communication and other, other 01:33:22.111 --> 01:33:24.481 forms of paranormal activities. 01:33:24.481 --> 01:33:26.431 It's something that we have in us. 01:33:26.431 --> 01:33:29.071 It's, it's our, it's our birthright 01:33:29.461 --> 01:33:30.181 Rupert Isaacson: right Now. 01:33:30.181 --> 01:33:33.811 Some people would say, you know, it's very interesting, this one that, that 01:33:33.811 --> 01:33:40.041 was born of indigenous communities especially working with psychotropic 01:33:40.046 --> 01:33:43.296 plants that put you into an alter set of consciousness that allow you to have. 01:33:44.166 --> 01:33:47.826 These trans dimensional relationships with the consciousness of 01:33:47.826 --> 01:33:49.086 animals and plants and so on. 01:33:49.356 --> 01:33:54.066 What's interesting for me is I, all my experiences with indigenous 01:33:54.066 --> 01:33:57.756 people talking to animals and plants, were in the Kalahari 01:33:57.756 --> 01:34:00.576 where no psychotropic stuff grows. 01:34:00.576 --> 01:34:01.416 It's just not there. 01:34:01.806 --> 01:34:05.316 So there is no ayahuasca, there is no magic mushroom, there is 01:34:05.316 --> 01:34:07.626 no peyote, there is no fly arick. 01:34:08.076 --> 01:34:09.816 It is not there. 01:34:09.816 --> 01:34:10.686 There's no DMT. 01:34:10.926 --> 01:34:20.736 So it's very interesting that these cultures without any drug also very, 01:34:20.736 --> 01:34:27.936 very effectively seem to be able to figure out things like if you take this 01:34:27.936 --> 01:34:35.136 particular lava of this particular form of beetle, when it's living under this 01:34:35.136 --> 01:34:38.376 particular form of wild coffee tree. 01:34:39.501 --> 01:34:48.721 And you heat it so that it's mucus melts into the shaft of your arrow. 01:34:49.531 --> 01:34:53.101 Anything that you hit with that arrow will die, including a 01:34:53.101 --> 01:34:54.751 giraffe, including your friend. 01:34:54.751 --> 01:34:57.181 If you accidentally you know him, or if you put, you know, 01:34:57.181 --> 01:34:59.611 if you absent accidentally rub your eye, you'll go blind. 01:35:00.091 --> 01:35:05.761 But if you hit that animal with that poison, all you have to do to 01:35:05.761 --> 01:35:08.336 neutralize the poison is cook the meat. 01:35:09.946 --> 01:35:14.326 How now you couldn't get to there by a process of trial and error physically, 01:35:14.536 --> 01:35:16.816 because everybody who failed it would die. 01:35:16.846 --> 01:35:20.626 Like, and in those old, you know, people think, oh, there, you know, millions 01:35:20.626 --> 01:35:22.786 and millions of people that, you know, they could have gone, no, there weren't, 01:35:22.846 --> 01:35:26.626 you know, you're talking about places with handfuls of people by our standards 01:35:26.926 --> 01:35:33.076 where if they were to engage in that sort of trial and error stuff with highly 01:35:33.076 --> 01:35:38.236 toxic substances, they, not enough of them would live to tell the tale that, 01:35:38.236 --> 01:35:44.116 that, you know, so it just, you know, so clearly there were other processes 01:35:44.206 --> 01:35:49.966 going on and you know, of course I, like anyone who spent any time in 01:35:49.966 --> 01:35:54.646 these parts of the world have seen many things where you just have to say, I'm 01:35:54.646 --> 01:35:59.146 comfortable saying, I truly don't know how that happened, but I did see it. 01:35:59.596 --> 01:35:59.866 Right. 01:36:00.016 --> 01:36:00.376 Yeah. 01:36:00.476 --> 01:36:02.876 Even away from the prosaic stuff, like just, you know, 01:36:02.876 --> 01:36:04.256 punting technology like that. 01:36:04.826 --> 01:36:06.986 Shapeshifting and all of these things that actually, 01:36:06.986 --> 01:36:06.987 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:36:06.986 --> 01:36:08.036 yeah, shapeshifting, 01:36:08.096 --> 01:36:11.126 Rupert Isaacson: you know, one, I've been lucky enough to kind of be exposed to it. 01:36:11.186 --> 01:36:14.066 And you, you, you begin to see why people do it and how they do it and 01:36:14.066 --> 01:36:19.766 how they, but you, you know, they, they, they couldn't have come to these 01:36:19.766 --> 01:36:22.016 conclusions through experimentally. 01:36:22.106 --> 01:36:23.126 No, no. 01:36:23.346 --> 01:36:26.376 There had to be somewhere bypassing that process. 01:36:26.376 --> 01:36:32.256 And that's my question about quantum entanglement. 01:36:32.706 --> 01:36:37.266 When you, when you look it up on Google, you can't find anything about alright, 01:36:37.266 --> 01:36:41.676 then, you know, how'd you, how'd you, you know, entangle a, an electron then, you 01:36:41.676 --> 01:36:46.266 know, or you know, if I'm having a, in the pub, you know, I've got is an electron 01:36:46.296 --> 01:36:48.006 look, I've got an electron, there it is. 01:36:48.516 --> 01:36:50.676 You've got an electron, let's entangle them in it. 01:36:50.796 --> 01:36:54.426 And of course you can't, you know, and of course there's trillions of 01:36:54.426 --> 01:36:56.766 electrons buzzing about in you and in me. 01:36:58.296 --> 01:36:59.976 Why are they not all entangled? 01:36:59.976 --> 01:37:05.376 How do we entangle one or two and not the trillion? 01:37:05.376 --> 01:37:06.126 Others like, 01:37:07.386 --> 01:37:07.387 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:37:07.386 --> 01:37:09.276 well, there's your Nobel Prize, Rupert. 01:37:10.386 --> 01:37:10.686 Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah. 01:37:10.686 --> 01:37:12.216 It'll be, it'll be me that proves that. 01:37:12.216 --> 01:37:12.486 Right. 01:37:12.756 --> 01:37:15.096 But I mean, so are there insights into that? 01:37:15.096 --> 01:37:17.526 Like when, when they observe the quantum entanglement, did 01:37:17.526 --> 01:37:18.636 they see how they got entangled? 01:37:20.641 --> 01:37:20.642 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:37:20.641 --> 01:37:20.861 No. 01:37:21.581 --> 01:37:22.176 NN no. 01:37:22.176 --> 01:37:24.966 I mean, so far it's, like I say, it's just subatomic particles 01:37:24.971 --> 01:37:26.286 and, and it's a big mystery. 01:37:26.286 --> 01:37:26.466 But did 01:37:26.466 --> 01:37:30.936 Rupert Isaacson: they see, was there any mechanical process 01:37:30.936 --> 01:37:31.956 whereby they got entangle? 01:37:31.956 --> 01:37:33.336 Did they trip over each other? 01:37:33.336 --> 01:37:35.856 Did they bash into each other in a particular way? 01:37:35.856 --> 01:37:36.936 What did they do? 01:37:36.936 --> 01:37:36.996 The 01:37:37.296 --> 01:37:37.297 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:37:37.296 --> 01:37:39.096 inner workings are not known. 01:37:39.096 --> 01:37:40.926 They, it, they just, it's been, 01:37:41.166 --> 01:37:42.186 Rupert Isaacson: they just observed it permit 01:37:42.186 --> 01:37:42.187 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:37:42.186 --> 01:37:45.366 experimentally, which was a huge, huge discovery. 01:37:45.366 --> 01:37:49.896 Alan aspect did win the Nobel Prize for, for quantum entanglement. 01:37:49.956 --> 01:37:50.196 Yeah. 01:37:50.776 --> 01:37:52.456 But no, we don't know how it happens. 01:37:52.456 --> 01:37:54.226 It, we, we believe, or we. 01:37:54.691 --> 01:37:59.491 I'm, I'm not a physicist, but they believe it happens outside of space time. 01:37:59.731 --> 01:38:00.301 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:38:00.361 --> 01:38:00.781 That, 01:38:01.111 --> 01:38:01.112 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:38:01.111 --> 01:38:06.391 you know, you violated the einsteinian limit of the speed of light. 01:38:06.871 --> 01:38:09.631 And so it's gotta be outside of space time. 01:38:09.631 --> 01:38:13.471 It's some kind of geometric phenomenon. 01:38:13.471 --> 01:38:15.841 See, geometric structure. 01:38:16.231 --> 01:38:17.461 Why is it geometric 01:38:18.511 --> 01:38:19.381 Rupert Isaacson: if it's violating 01:38:19.381 --> 01:38:19.382 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:38:19.381 --> 01:38:20.071 space time? 01:38:20.071 --> 01:38:22.081 Rupert Isaacson: We think that, well that Yeah, that's true. 01:38:22.081 --> 01:38:22.426 Becomes geometric 01:38:22.496 --> 01:38:22.497 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:38:22.496 --> 01:38:22.786 true. 01:38:22.841 --> 01:38:26.411 Well I think there are geometries that don't involve space and time. 01:38:26.411 --> 01:38:28.061 I, I, I don't know a better word. 01:38:28.061 --> 01:38:33.386 'cause geometry implies dimensionality space time. 01:38:33.386 --> 01:38:33.586 Right. 01:38:33.911 --> 01:38:37.001 So something outside of space time. 01:38:37.661 --> 01:38:41.231 And I think there are probably consciousnesses in the 01:38:41.231 --> 01:38:43.811 universe that aren't melded. 01:38:43.811 --> 01:38:48.041 That aren't seated in, in bodies and brains that function 01:38:48.041 --> 01:38:49.391 like this all the time. 01:38:49.396 --> 01:38:49.586 Yep. 01:38:50.306 --> 01:38:54.776 And we're just, you know, think of where this is gonna 01:38:54.776 --> 01:38:56.456 be a thousand years from now. 01:38:56.876 --> 01:39:02.636 We're just at the very dawn of understanding that this happens, 01:39:02.636 --> 01:39:06.296 but we know that it happens because of the aspect experiment. 01:39:06.866 --> 01:39:11.036 Rupert Isaacson: So that answered the question that I was asking earlier, 01:39:11.036 --> 01:39:17.156 which is where do you think the shifts in scientific philosophy are going? 01:39:17.216 --> 01:39:20.156 And you know, you having had a bit of a front row seat of, of that in 01:39:20.156 --> 01:39:21.866 Northern California over these years. 01:39:22.076 --> 01:39:24.956 I think you just answered that, which is that, as you say, we're at 01:39:24.956 --> 01:39:34.886 the dawn of understanding that the system that we live in is at once much 01:39:34.886 --> 01:39:37.226 more complex and on another level. 01:39:37.226 --> 01:39:38.456 Much simpler Yeah. 01:39:38.756 --> 01:39:45.206 Than we ever could have imagined in that, when I say simpler, that we 01:39:45.206 --> 01:39:48.176 can access these states and perhaps. 01:39:48.671 --> 01:39:51.731 We'll realize that we always have been, and that many aspects of day-to-day 01:39:51.731 --> 01:39:58.811 life actually are those, but that perhaps we could, rather than stumbling 01:40:00.551 --> 01:40:07.811 over them inadvertently or not so much intentionally, we could more and more 01:40:07.871 --> 01:40:11.411 make that a focus of attention and then do things which appear magical. 01:40:12.161 --> 01:40:15.431 Now that, of course, you know, it is hilarious because, you know, any 01:40:15.641 --> 01:40:19.361 self-respecting Native American or Kalahari healer would say, well, I 01:40:19.361 --> 01:40:20.681 do that every or every day, mate. 01:40:20.921 --> 01:40:21.426 Yeah, yeah. 01:40:21.551 --> 01:40:27.371 As have my ancestors for the, but you lot us put all those people to the 01:40:27.371 --> 01:40:29.711 stake for, you know, a thousand years. 01:40:29.711 --> 01:40:32.501 And so you regard it as this huge deal. 01:40:32.741 --> 01:40:37.031 But I think that what the difference is between that indigenous way of 01:40:37.361 --> 01:40:41.771 doing it on a very effective way and training people in a spiritual 01:40:41.771 --> 01:40:48.221 technology that accesses that c, marrying that with the deterministic. 01:40:48.281 --> 01:40:58.721 M mechanically physical sciences, I think makes it accessible to the modern mind 01:41:00.341 --> 01:41:04.811 and computing is the way that I think people can accept it best because we 01:41:04.811 --> 01:41:06.821 are used to com computers doing magic. 01:41:07.031 --> 01:41:11.651 I mean, if, if you, you and I sitting here on this zoom looking at each other, you 01:41:11.651 --> 01:41:14.501 know, if that had been presented, that would've been something we would've seen 01:41:14.501 --> 01:41:17.201 in like a Star Wars movie in 1977, right? 01:41:17.231 --> 01:41:17.441 Yeah. 01:41:17.501 --> 01:41:19.661 They'd have done something like that and we've gone, woo, you know, maybe 01:41:19.661 --> 01:41:20.981 we'll be there in a thousand years. 01:41:21.281 --> 01:41:24.851 I don't think we'd have quite thought we'd be here so casually in 40. 01:41:25.301 --> 01:41:25.751 Right. 01:41:26.651 --> 01:41:28.211 But it it is magical, isn't it? 01:41:28.211 --> 01:41:31.511 I mean, I, we're effectively entangled here, aren't we? 01:41:32.711 --> 01:41:32.712 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:41:32.711 --> 01:41:38.321 Well, right, and quantum entanglement has moral implications too, because if 01:41:38.321 --> 01:41:42.221 we understand that everybody is part of one consciousness outside of space 01:41:42.221 --> 01:41:44.891 and time, you can't hate somebody. 01:41:45.221 --> 01:41:47.591 You can't hate other people and kill other people. 01:41:48.461 --> 01:41:48.851 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:41:49.511 --> 01:41:49.512 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:41:49.511 --> 01:41:51.071 Make war on other people. 01:41:51.131 --> 01:41:53.711 It's, well, perhaps you still can, because you can just blind yourself. 01:41:53.861 --> 01:41:54.041 Yeah. 01:41:54.041 --> 01:41:55.031 The physics, sorry. 01:41:55.661 --> 01:41:58.001 Rupert Isaacson: Perhaps you still can, because you can just blind yourself to it. 01:41:58.001 --> 01:41:58.391 I mean, 01:41:58.601 --> 01:41:58.602 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:41:58.601 --> 01:42:02.171 well, that's what, yeah, it that, that, that part might take a thousand years 01:42:02.171 --> 01:42:07.451 too, because, you know, all our, all our sci-fi movies like Star Wars and 01:42:07.451 --> 01:42:11.891 Star Trek, they're still about evil forces all those years, conquest. 01:42:12.311 --> 01:42:19.031 But, you know, quantum physics is the physics of love and the entanglement 01:42:20.141 --> 01:42:23.201 as a philosophy is about that. 01:42:23.321 --> 01:42:24.641 It's about connection. 01:42:26.561 --> 01:42:29.801 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting that you say that because any, any healer 01:42:29.801 --> 01:42:34.511 I've ever spoken to, whether it's been in the Kalahari where I know 01:42:34.511 --> 01:42:40.721 them best, or other places where I've participated in those sorts of. 01:42:41.141 --> 01:42:45.401 Things like little bits in the Australian rainforest, little bits on 01:42:45.401 --> 01:42:49.501 the Navajo reservation, little bits in certain other areas of the world. 01:42:51.781 --> 01:42:56.041 Whenever I've asked them the healer, you know, well, what is this force 01:42:56.041 --> 01:42:57.271 that you're using this energy? 01:42:57.271 --> 01:43:01.261 It's back to your Qigong thing, whether it's they say, oh, it's cheap, or 01:43:01.911 --> 01:43:03.171 you know, the life force or whatever. 01:43:03.261 --> 01:43:03.471 Yeah. 01:43:03.801 --> 01:43:08.451 Or it's electricity, or it's what the bushman called norm, which is one of the 01:43:08.511 --> 01:43:13.281 norm, which is one of those untranslatable words, but it it somewhere between life 01:43:13.281 --> 01:43:15.711 force energy and wisdom and strength. 01:43:15.711 --> 01:43:17.421 It sort of encompasses all those things. 01:43:18.031 --> 01:43:20.821 But again, they all, they also, it's a sexual energy that lives at the 01:43:20.821 --> 01:43:25.441 base of the spine and you can do things with it when you, when you ask 01:43:25.441 --> 01:43:27.151 them, well, okay then what is norm? 01:43:28.261 --> 01:43:29.281 What is key? 01:43:30.451 --> 01:43:31.711 What is Kundalini? 01:43:32.881 --> 01:43:34.801 You always get the same answer, which is. 01:43:35.641 --> 01:43:37.801 What I've always gotten is, oh, well, Rupert, that's quite simple. 01:43:37.801 --> 01:43:38.401 It's just love. 01:43:38.971 --> 01:43:42.061 It's just that with a, with a certain training process, 01:43:42.061 --> 01:43:43.201 you can learn to direct it. 01:43:45.721 --> 01:43:46.111 Yeah. 01:43:46.861 --> 01:43:51.331 So is is, is the quantum mechanics and quantum stuff like that 01:43:51.331 --> 01:43:57.796 merely our post agricultural, post indigenous life culture. 01:43:57.901 --> 01:44:02.881 Just coming back to the same conclusion that we actually had 300,000 years 01:44:02.881 --> 01:44:08.431 ago and still did, which is that we can do things quite effectively in 01:44:08.431 --> 01:44:11.551 dimensions outside of time and space as well as dimensions inside time and 01:44:11.551 --> 01:44:14.611 space, and that these things are not so, you know, are not contradictory. 01:44:15.091 --> 01:44:17.791 And it's interesting isn't it, that those early cultures who, which 01:44:17.791 --> 01:44:20.941 are still around, don't make war as you say that they, they don't hate. 01:44:20.941 --> 01:44:21.481 They don't. 01:44:23.461 --> 01:44:24.571 And they're totally human. 01:44:24.571 --> 01:44:25.321 They're not saints. 01:44:25.321 --> 01:44:27.091 They just don't do that stuff. 01:44:27.811 --> 01:44:27.812 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:44:27.811 --> 01:44:28.231 Yeah. 01:44:29.461 --> 01:44:32.401 We can hope, you know, we were all indigenous at one point 01:44:32.401 --> 01:44:34.201 and then we kinda lost it. 01:44:34.711 --> 01:44:36.401 But you know, there were, well, all children 01:44:36.401 --> 01:44:39.041 Rupert Isaacson: are planet Earth, so we are still indigenous, even if we've 01:44:39.311 --> 01:44:41.081 displaced others and being displaced. 01:44:41.501 --> 01:44:41.502 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:44:41.501 --> 01:44:46.511 And the mystical traditions of our, particularly our three most common 01:44:46.511 --> 01:44:52.931 religions, you know, Christian mystical Christianity, Sufism and 01:44:53.171 --> 01:45:01.721 Kabbalah within, somewhat within the structure of traditional 01:45:01.721 --> 01:45:08.441 religions, have that, that spiritual yearning toward love and connection. 01:45:08.531 --> 01:45:08.831 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:45:09.251 --> 01:45:09.252 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:45:09.251 --> 01:45:15.341 And, and are open to mystical experiences that we would call paranormal. 01:45:15.611 --> 01:45:16.151 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:45:17.231 --> 01:45:22.841 It does, and it does seem that that's always nature's direction that. 01:45:23.051 --> 01:45:23.111 Hmm. 01:45:24.221 --> 01:45:26.921 No matter how much you mess it up, it will go back to harmony. 01:45:27.851 --> 01:45:29.711 If you cut your skin, it will heal. 01:45:30.281 --> 01:45:32.501 You can abuse your liver massively. 01:45:32.561 --> 01:45:36.851 I know I have in the past, and it will still reconstitute itself. 01:45:36.881 --> 01:45:39.611 You know, the, the it nature wants to go. 01:45:39.611 --> 01:45:43.961 It seems always in that direction of, for want of a better word, love. 01:45:43.991 --> 01:45:45.311 I mean, your body loves you, right. 01:45:45.311 --> 01:45:46.451 Your immune system loves you. 01:45:46.456 --> 01:45:48.041 It, it behaves in a loving way. 01:45:48.041 --> 01:45:52.581 It doesn't, that's why an autoimmune disease is such a, an anomaly when there's 01:45:52.581 --> 01:45:55.071 a disruption like that because, well, even 01:45:55.071 --> 01:45:55.072 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:45:55.071 --> 01:45:56.871 that, it's trying to protect you with love. 01:45:56.871 --> 01:45:57.321 Indeed. 01:45:57.531 --> 01:45:57.741 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:45:57.741 --> 01:45:59.931 Inflammation is just a protection maker in guided, but 01:45:59.931 --> 01:45:59.932 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:45:59.931 --> 01:46:02.541 that's, you know, that's a condition of consciousness too. 01:46:02.601 --> 01:46:03.201 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:46:03.561 --> 01:46:03.562 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:46:03.561 --> 01:46:09.651 But you know, you think of the, the trees that need forest fires to open up 01:46:09.651 --> 01:46:11.721 their cones and regenerate the forest. 01:46:12.681 --> 01:46:12.711 Mm. 01:46:12.711 --> 01:46:13.671 Nature healing. 01:46:14.511 --> 01:46:14.811 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:46:15.861 --> 01:46:16.911 So what's next for you? 01:46:17.946 --> 01:46:21.996 You've got a nice equine therapy practice going there at or therapeutic 01:46:21.996 --> 01:46:24.066 practice there going at Stanford. 01:46:24.066 --> 01:46:27.066 And I'm gonna have you on the other podcast, so don't worry listeners, 01:46:27.546 --> 01:46:28.716 don't stop jumping up and down. 01:46:28.716 --> 01:46:33.156 We are going to ask her in much more detail about that over on Equine Assisted 01:46:33.156 --> 01:46:34.536 World, and we'll do that in a few weeks. 01:46:34.536 --> 01:46:35.826 So we will do that interview. 01:46:36.006 --> 01:46:39.706 But where are you going now with your scientific life and your sort of 01:46:39.706 --> 01:46:41.506 general, what, what's next for you? 01:46:41.656 --> 01:46:44.836 You've led such an interesting self-determined climate so far. 01:46:45.196 --> 01:46:45.197 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:46:45.196 --> 01:46:50.386 The, well, a big part of my joy is teaching college students 01:46:50.446 --> 01:46:52.036 everything we've talked about. 01:46:52.696 --> 01:46:56.461 Medical Tai Chi starts next month and I just love. 01:46:57.361 --> 01:47:01.471 Love teaching the college students about, you know, in the context 01:47:01.471 --> 01:47:02.701 Stanford University teaching. 01:47:02.701 --> 01:47:04.651 You know, on one hand we, sorry. 01:47:04.861 --> 01:47:07.051 Rupert Isaacson: I love that you're at Stanford University teaching 01:47:07.051 --> 01:47:10.081 medical Tai Chi that just makes it feel like the hippies won. 01:47:10.141 --> 01:47:11.071 And I I love that. 01:47:11.851 --> 01:47:11.852 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:47:11.851 --> 01:47:12.001 Yeah. 01:47:12.301 --> 01:47:14.251 Well I used to be a hippie card carrying, yeah, 01:47:14.551 --> 01:47:15.451 Rupert Isaacson: I still am mate. 01:47:15.451 --> 01:47:18.541 Still am card carrying, flag waving. 01:47:19.231 --> 01:47:19.232 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:47:19.231 --> 01:47:19.741 Yeah. 01:47:20.101 --> 01:47:21.571 Yeah, I see you get the ponytail. 01:47:21.781 --> 01:47:22.651 Rupert Isaacson: Proud to be, yeah. 01:47:22.651 --> 01:47:24.601 Well there's lots of people who aren't hip ponytails, but Yeah. 01:47:25.181 --> 01:47:25.451 Yeah, so, 01:47:26.081 --> 01:47:26.082 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:47:26.081 --> 01:47:32.161 so what I've beco over the years you know, I'll be 76 in two weeks 01:47:32.581 --> 01:47:36.961 I've become way more open about who I am and what I believe. 01:47:37.201 --> 01:47:37.591 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:47:37.681 --> 01:47:37.682 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:47:37.681 --> 01:47:43.021 So, you know, it's nice that the first half hour of medical tai chi is hardcore 01:47:43.021 --> 01:47:47.761 science and scientific methodology and scientific reasoning and scientific logic. 01:47:48.391 --> 01:47:53.221 'cause then I get to talk about how Tai Chi is. 01:47:53.956 --> 01:47:56.686 Basically quantum somatics, I've come to call it. 01:47:56.686 --> 01:47:57.136 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:47:57.196 --> 01:47:57.197 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:47:57.196 --> 01:48:04.636 It's how that, when we cultivate those energies, then we relate to the cosmos, 01:48:04.636 --> 01:48:10.096 we see our place in the universe, and I've become, I've refined how I teach that 01:48:10.666 --> 01:48:13.936 and how open I am about expressing that. 01:48:14.446 --> 01:48:20.176 So that's always a work in progress, is how to teach that, how to express it, 01:48:20.176 --> 01:48:23.926 how to make it more real and more fun. 01:48:24.526 --> 01:48:27.256 Rupert Isaacson: I'm not at Stanford, but can I come and attend that course? 01:48:28.006 --> 01:48:28.007 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:48:28.006 --> 01:48:28.756 Oh, please. 01:48:28.756 --> 01:48:29.236 Yeah. 01:48:29.236 --> 01:48:29.806 Well, you should. 01:48:29.806 --> 01:48:34.666 You should come and do equanimity and do our meditation ride bareback. 01:48:34.666 --> 01:48:34.781 I would love 01:48:34.781 --> 01:48:34.821 Rupert Isaacson: to. 01:48:35.776 --> 01:48:35.777 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:48:35.776 --> 01:48:35.926 Well, 01:48:35.926 --> 01:48:37.366 Rupert Isaacson: you know, we have a really, really good 01:48:37.366 --> 01:48:40.926 horse boy practice very close to you there in in Half Moon Bay 01:48:41.141 --> 01:48:41.142 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:48:41.141 --> 01:48:41.671 with Joel. 01:48:41.931 --> 01:48:42.151 Yes. 01:48:42.261 --> 01:48:42.551 Yeah, 01:48:42.576 --> 01:48:44.556 Rupert Isaacson: Joel, the, the Square Peg Foundation. 01:48:44.706 --> 01:48:48.056 And we were just together in Ireland a couple of days ago for our big 01:48:48.056 --> 01:48:49.136 conference that we have there. 01:48:49.136 --> 01:48:50.216 So she's doing amazing work. 01:48:50.216 --> 01:48:52.856 She's, you know, mental health provider now for San Mateo 01:48:52.856 --> 01:48:54.356 County, which is Silicon Valley. 01:48:54.356 --> 01:48:54.416 Yeah. 01:48:54.866 --> 01:48:56.366 So, yeah, I've got lots of reasons to go. 01:48:56.366 --> 01:48:57.776 So let's, let's do that. 01:48:57.826 --> 01:49:00.586 I'd love to come attend and see it in more detail. 01:49:01.516 --> 01:49:01.517 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:49:01.516 --> 01:49:02.356 That'll be in the spring. 01:49:02.356 --> 01:49:03.701 Next class is in the spring, okay. 01:49:03.701 --> 01:49:03.941 Okay. 01:49:04.306 --> 01:49:04.546 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:49:04.546 --> 01:49:04.636 Yeah. 01:49:05.206 --> 01:49:05.686 Super. 01:49:06.706 --> 01:49:08.296 Alright, well I look forward to more. 01:49:08.386 --> 01:49:10.216 And in the meantime you've got books. 01:49:10.246 --> 01:49:16.066 So if people want to read a little bit about your work and what you do, can you 01:49:16.606 --> 01:49:19.186 tell people where the books are, what they're about and how they find them? 01:49:19.586 --> 01:49:19.587 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:49:19.586 --> 01:49:20.996 So they're all on Amazon. 01:49:20.996 --> 01:49:25.916 The latest one is actually on Etsy as a downloadable PDF, the. 01:49:26.261 --> 01:49:30.731 Book that I wrote for general people who aren't necessarily horse people 01:49:30.731 --> 01:49:34.271 and aren't necessarily meditation people is just called equanimity, 01:49:35.171 --> 01:49:39.761 stress reduction and emotional self-regulation in the company of Horses. 01:49:39.761 --> 01:49:41.051 That's a paperback. 01:49:41.361 --> 01:49:45.381 And it's also an ebook on Amazon and Etsy. 01:49:45.381 --> 01:49:46.611 Just tell us the title again 01:49:46.611 --> 01:49:48.501 Rupert Isaacson: a bit more slowly in case people have got their pens out. 01:49:48.501 --> 01:49:48.531 Oh, 01:49:49.281 --> 01:49:49.282 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:49:49.281 --> 01:49:50.061 equanimity. 01:49:50.751 --> 01:49:53.511 E-Q-U-I-N, een. 01:49:55.446 --> 01:49:57.321 Imit, I-M-I-T-Y. 01:49:57.561 --> 01:49:58.161 So you're 01:49:58.161 --> 01:50:00.261 Rupert Isaacson: playing with the word e equine E playing with 01:50:01.011 --> 01:50:01.012 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:50:01.011 --> 01:50:03.016 equanimity, which is EQUA. 01:50:03.366 --> 01:50:03.656 Yeah. 01:50:03.896 --> 01:50:04.911 N-I-M-I-T-Y. 01:50:05.126 --> 01:50:05.416 Okay. 01:50:05.466 --> 01:50:06.406 And subtitle. 01:50:06.406 --> 01:50:10.371 So that's, that's the general Stress Reduction and Emotional 01:50:10.371 --> 01:50:13.821 Self-Regulation in the Company of Horses. 01:50:13.826 --> 01:50:13.966 Okay. 01:50:15.171 --> 01:50:18.051 And that's for the general readership. 01:50:19.071 --> 01:50:23.721 And there's a manual to go with that called The Manual of 01:50:23.721 --> 01:50:29.151 Somatic Horsemanship, which is an instructor's guide to equanimity. 01:50:29.181 --> 01:50:34.401 And that's on, I had written a book called The Manual of Medicine and 01:50:34.401 --> 01:50:40.941 Horsemanship, which teaches other people to replicate our Stanford program. 01:50:41.151 --> 01:50:41.271 Mm-hmm. 01:50:41.511 --> 01:50:45.951 And I was very gratified that about 20 other programs came out of that 01:50:45.951 --> 01:50:50.031 all around the US and, and actually one in Belgium and Costa Rica. 01:50:50.551 --> 01:50:53.671 So I'm hoping the same thing will happen with the Equanimity manual. 01:50:53.701 --> 01:50:54.241 Rupert Isaacson: Super. 01:50:54.511 --> 01:50:56.551 Well, we have our, you know, for those listeners who are 01:50:56.551 --> 01:50:58.891 listening, this is August, 2025. 01:50:59.371 --> 01:51:02.551 Next year, about the same time, September 26th, we'll be doing our 01:51:02.551 --> 01:51:06.091 next neuroscience conference at, at Eastern Virginia Medical School. 01:51:06.091 --> 01:51:07.591 So I think you need to come and be a speaker. 01:51:09.411 --> 01:51:09.741 Be Beverly. 01:51:09.741 --> 01:51:10.671 I think that'd be great. 01:51:11.331 --> 01:51:11.332 Dr. Beverley Kane MD: 01:51:11.331 --> 01:51:11.871 Yeah. 01:51:12.501 --> 01:51:15.621 Yeah, that would be West Virginia was one of the places that did 01:51:15.621 --> 01:51:17.091 medicine and horsemanship too, so. 01:51:17.271 --> 01:51:18.141 Ah, there you go. 01:51:19.576 --> 01:51:19.866 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:51:20.211 --> 01:51:20.571 Alright. 01:51:20.571 --> 01:51:23.451 Well, I think I, I think this is to be continued yeah. 01:51:23.661 --> 01:51:29.931 Many threads to pick up, and we will go into your equanimity program in more 01:51:29.931 --> 01:51:37.161 detail over there on the next podcast, but I, I'm so glad we got to look at what 01:51:37.161 --> 01:51:40.731 has formed this and how you've gone from 01:51:42.345 --> 01:51:46.665 hitchhiking with 35 bucks in your pocket to protest the Vietnam War, 01:51:46.665 --> 01:51:51.255 to becoming a, a doctor, to becoming a professor, to becoming a computer 01:51:51.255 --> 01:51:57.225 scientist, to becoming a corporate person there in Silicon Valley to eventually 01:52:00.085 --> 01:52:01.795 the con the physics of consciousness. 01:52:01.825 --> 01:52:02.755 I, I love it. 01:52:02.965 --> 01:52:04.225 With horses thrown in the mix. 01:52:04.225 --> 01:52:09.165 It's, I think it's fair to say you've, you are still living a 01:52:09.165 --> 01:52:13.625 very, very self-actualized life and many of us are benefiting from it. 01:52:13.865 --> 01:52:18.425 So thank you so much for coming on the show and I look forward to the next one. 01:52:19.115 --> 01:52:19.565 Same. 01:52:19.565 --> 01:52:20.110 Thank you, Rubert. 01:52:20.396 --> 01:52:23.776 I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:52:24.606 --> 01:52:28.356 If you did, please help us to make more. 01:52:28.356 --> 01:52:32.236 Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up. 01:52:32.686 --> 01:52:37.936 If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson. 01:52:38.256 --> 01:52:38.606 com. 01:52:38.806 --> 01:52:41.986 And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with. 01:52:42.376 --> 01:52:46.326 autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism. 01:52:46.386 --> 01:52:48.726 There's a whole range of 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meantime, remember, live free. 01:53:34.201 --> 01:53:34.751 Ride free.