This is the EWN Podcast Network. You've been living in your home for many years, paying the mortgage and taking care of the insurance and all of the usual expenses. Then disaster hits. Your home is engulfed in flames and suddenly gone. You know you have homeowners insurance, but wait.

Who actually owns your home? Are you fully covered? Where and how can you afford to live in the process? Stay tuned for this episode of From Disaster to Dream Home, where today's guests have navigated the cumbersome process and will help us all understand it.

Welcome to From Disaster to Dream Home, the podcast that takes you inside the home building and rebuilding process. When interior designer Jana Rosenblatt had an 80 foot tree fall in her house, she saw the opportunity to create the customized home of her dreams. From Disaster to Dream Home provides you the information and resources Jana wished she had during her rebuilding process. Now she's sharing with you the expertise of leading architects and home builders and the newest products and materials on the market. Here's your host, Jana Rosenblatt.

Welcome back home builders and remodelers to another episode of from disaster to dream home. The podcast that will take you through the process of building or rebuilding a new home from the ground up in 52 episodes. If you are rebuilding after the loss of your home or building a new home from the ground up, each episode of From Disaster to Dream Home will help you know what you and your design team will need to do to make the construction process fluid so your dream home can rise from the ashes. Beginning at 11AM on 12/30/2021, the Marshall Fire in Boulder County, Colorado, fueled by drought and hurricane force winds, jumped from one home to the next through densely populated urban neighborhoods caused by two coincidental ignition points, one from a week old trash burning fire and the other from hot particles discharged from energy power lines. Within thirty minutes of the initial nine one one call, evacuation orders went out through the whole area.

In the next thirteen minutes, the fire reached the first subdivision of homes. In all, 1,084 homes were lost in addition to 37 commercial structures and a 49 additional homes damaged. Miraculously, only two lives were lost. It then took four days until the Marshall Fire was fully contained, leaving the area in devastation with a long road to recovery ahead of them. Our guests today, survivors Jeff and Sammy Kinder, have risen like phoenix birds from the ashes of the Marshall Fire Disaster.

The Kinders had not only their home in the path of the flames, but their business, Advantage Self Storage, with multiple locations. Amazingly, even having lost their home and everything in it, the Kinders have found a way to give back to the community by making storage units available to others in the rebuilding process. We will give you more information about their company at the end of the episode. Jeff and Sammy, thank you so much for joining us to tell your story. First, can you take us through a description of where you were when the evacuation order went out?

We were just sitting in our in our breakfast nook, if you will, and it was a beautiful day. The sun was shining. The the temperatures were actually quite moderate for being December 30 and just enjoying the day, although the wind was just incredible. Yeah. And I think what ended up happening is as we sat there, our our son and his wife were visiting from Hawaii, and and it's like the air just instantly turned green.

It was just the most acrid, vile, green. Yeah. It was it was amazing. It it was almost like the it must have been the house next door that just immediately blew up, you know, because that's how dense and how fast it showed up.

Yeah.

So my son and I decided, well, you know, let's let's go find out what's going on. So we we went out front. Nope. Wasn't the house next door. We went down to the end of the block.

Nope. Wasn't the house at the end of the block. So we actually got in the car and drove into the wind, you know, trying to see where the source of the fire was. And about a mile from our home, if you will, we we were up on a freeway overpass, and we could just see the unbelievable amount of smoke that was coming off of what appeared to be a grass fire in an open space Uh-huh. That was on the other side of the freeway.

It was on the other side of a major North South thoroughfare that had a Costco and a Target and 80 acres of asphalt. I mean, we we just could not imagine that this would be something that would have impacted us, but there was a huge fire that was happening in the grasslands on the other side. So we basically called home and said, hey, Sammy. We're on our way back. We were probably gonna have to evacuate just assuming that this is just gonna be smoke event.

Had a sense from its proximity and the and the speed of it that you were gonna know on your way out.

Yep. Yep. And still, on the other side of the freeway, on the other side of this big shopping center, on the other side of this main thoroughfare, it was gonna be a huge smoke event. It was gonna be a big mess, but I could not fathom. We'd it Of course.

That it was gonna actually burn our house down because we're still literally five miles away from the ignition source.

Wow. Yeah. That and it feels like a a big dis distance at that point. So how

long did

it take you then to get home, get Sammy? I guess you had critters. And and what did you take with you?

It took them about ten minutes to get home. They had to be rerouted from the direct route that they went because they were starting to to close roads.

Wow.

And I I want to correct you because we did not get a reverse nine woman call at all. We'd never received one before we left.

Wow.

Which was interesting. But anyway, we didn't think it was going to come to our house. So we gathered a couple board games, some chicken soup, a couple guitars, and the critters. And we Uh-huh. Did we didn't gather all the things we could have gathered, but because we thought we didn't think it was gonna burn, but it did.

Our house the house next door to us did not burn.

Right. I mean, that's the amazing thing with fire. You just don't know how how to prepare because it is completely erratic. And so where did you initially go? What was the first stop?

That well, we when we took off, we and it it the reverse nine one ones and the evacuation came shortly after

Uh-huh.

We left the house. Again, we left the house thinking we were having a major smoke event. So when we left, we weren't getting the official, you gotta get out now because you might burn down. Right. And so as we drove away, we thought, well, let's just go up to Chris and Gary's house, our friends, and and, you know, stay up at their house.

When we almost made it to their neighborhood, their neighborhood was already closed off. The the evacuation had come because by then, the fire had already jumped the freeway and was coming up another branch of the fire. So their neighborhood was closed off. So we had to turn around, and it's like, okay. Well, now their My gosh.

Lives in Lewisville. We should go swing by her house, make sure that she's okay with her two kids. And, and so by the time that we got there, she was clueless, but there was you know, shortly after we got there, the fire trucks were going up and down the street screaming to everybody, get out. Get out. Get out.

And So then that's what it

to move on from that house also?

Yes. We had to move on from that house, and and that's when it really just turned into, like, a scene from The Wizard of Oz. The air was so smoky, and and and it wasn't just smoke. You know, when you looked up and you saw you know, could barely see the orange sun trying to get through, but, you know, that's how thick the smoke was. But then the wind was so strong, you're getting fences and signposts blowing across the road.

I almost expected to see this old lady on a bicycle going. Yeah. Yeah. It was just by then, it was getting totally surreal. So we ended up going to another friend's house up on on the North Side Of Boulder who was definitely out of the way, the out of the direction of that wind, and that's where we ended up spending the night.

Uh-huh. And it must have been kind of chaos on the roads.

What is normally a three minute drive from our

Yeah.

Our friend's daughter's house, you know, to the to the main road leaving Lewisville probably took forty five minutes because everybody was pulling out of their driveway at the same time.

Yeah. Unbelievable. It yeah. So I'm gonna take a little bit of a jump now even though I'd love to hear every detail. How did you receive the news of the loss of your home?

It was about 10:30 that night. The local TV stations had reporters all over the place. And and so you we could see how the the progress of the fire, and we're just amazed that it had not only jumped the freeway where it had earlier, but that it had come across the main thoroughfare. It was now in the golf course that was next to our house, and, we knew that the subdivision, you know, to the south of us was fully engaged. We could get that off of watching the news.

And so by about 08:00 that evening, that subdivision was going, and we got a whatever it is, like, a a a text message, you know, a picture with our house fully fully engaged from a neighbor who would yeah. You know, about 10:30 that night, we saw our house was a big a big ball of fire.

Yeah. Oh, that's a picture that you will never forget, I'm sure. Once you realized, yeah, that you were going to be homeless for an unknown amount of time, what were your initial steps?

Cry.

It was good.

Yeah. We were in shock.

Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

And we're again, I I you know, as we get through this whole process, I think you're gonna find out how terribly lucky and blessed that Sammy and I are through this whole process, and and so many other people just had it so much worse. So the bad news is a lot of our friends were away. It was the holidays. It was December 30. People were gone.

Right. And so the but the good news is they're in Mexico. We can go stay at their house. And so that's basically yeah. That that that's what we did.

So we we stayed with one group for a couple nights, and then we went to another group for a couple of nights. And they came home, and we spent a couple of nights together. And then we went to another person's home who's gonna be gone for a couple of weeks and, you know, just trying to figure out how this whole out surfing Yeah. Was gonna happen. And

Only what you had in the past.

Yeah. Sammy, you should probably tell her what Raya did for you.

My daughter-in-law was so sweet. We had very had the worst clothes on because we were gonna go to this thing where you had to get dirty, and so I had the worst clothes on.

I know that outfit.

And the worst you know, everything was bad. And so we went shopping, I think, the next day, and she goes, Sammy, she's holding my hand. We have to go buy underwear. You know? And just Yes.

Someone have

to penetrate the shock. It's true. Yeah.

Yeah. So we just kind of helped each other through it, but it was like, oh, yeah. I do need some underwear, so we'll go buy some.

You you alluded to it a minute ago, but tell me a little bit about your neighborhood. I mean, not every house gets affected when there's a fire. What percentage of your neighbors are you know, were in the exact same boat as you versus standing?

This this this was very definitive. It you know, the fire broke across, you know, the sort of the main neighborhood artery, and the in the subdivision south of that artery was completely destroyed. And when it came across, the the fire department was doing an amazing job trying to contain it at that point as they had had several other points where it broke out again. But, this had gotten into some grass to the east. It came across, and it caught, like, four houses at the end of a cul de sac Uh-huh.

That was next to this main road, and then the wind just blew it in a straight line. And so those four houses took out the rest of that cul de sac, and then it came across a little open space area and got into our block.

Yeah.

And it took out every house on our block right up to our house, which was the last one that burned.

Yeah.

So if if you stood in the driveway and you went like this, it looked like Berlin Nineteen Forty Five. Yeah. Totally gone. Uh-huh. And then if you went like this, it looked like any other subdivision.

All the all of those houses

Wow. Yeah. That is still real. Yeah. Nuts.

So Yeah. You know as an interior designer, what I want to talk about is the design and rebuilding process. But as a person who has been out of their house for fourteen months of a rebuilding and was stunned by the challenges of working with the insurance and mortgage companies, what we really need to share with people going through the same challenge is how we can successfully navigate the insurance process. So let's try to travel down that road. You mentioned that you didn't leave prepared.

You know, you didn't think you were going to lose your house when you left it so you didn't run around and get everything you, you know, that you might have needed to make this even easier. Can you talk us through what was the beginning of reaching out to your insurance company and and how you began that process?

I think, again, I'm gonna have to, you know, preempt everything with the fact that we were really blessed. I have a couple of business partners who have a major renovation company in New York. They they did you know, when the hurricane came through and destroyed Coney Island and and all of the infrastructure, You know, theirs is theirs was the company that was helping to rebuild that. They do you know, when when high rise buildings burn. So they they were on the phone to me even before it sunk into me that I I need to talk to my insurance company.

And, you know, they yeah. It it is very fascinating because, you know, they they were very explicit. And and, you know, and it's like, okay, Jeff. This is what you tell your insurance company. This is how you tell them, and this is what you don't tell them.

And it's Right. It was just like snap out of it because you gotta get this process going. And so, hopefully, when it hits all of you, you have a friend. Sammy and I did this for each other several times during the process where you just gotta go snap out of it. You know?

You gotta keep going with this. So, you know, Scott and Mike with, Renew on Long Island, you know, were basically coaching me all the way, and they were the ones that told me how my insurance policy worked and that, you know, I have all of these extra buckets. Yes. And

and I've gone about that. Yeah.

I mean, I had gone through that with the with the insurance agent Right. But really didn't understand what the impact each one of those little buckets would have. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, to have those guys there to be telling me this right off the bat, I think, really just made my and Sammy's our relationship with the insurance adjusters so much easier.

Yeah. True. Yeah. Knowledge is power. And that's why in our case, we hired a private adjuster because we needed that go between.

When you're emotionally involved, it's very hard to see the water you know, the forest through the trees of of the complicated, process that you guys were were embarking in. So no one ever really expects to need or fully use their policies, and most of us have never actually read them. Before the fire, how familiar were you with your specifics of your homeowners insurance policy and what was the process that would entail for you if you lost you know, did you know what would happen if you really lost your whole home?

No. We I did understand some pieces. Sammy, maybe you felt more knowledgeable than I, but, I mean, I knew that there were that that there were things that had to be talked about when you get homeowners insurance. Up until this last time around, the only reason that I even got homeowners insurance is because I got a mortgage, and my bank said, you have to have homeowners insurance at least of the amount of the loan. And because if the house burns down, the bank has to be able to get paid.

And so it's really unfortunate for most, especially first time homebuyers and and and even, you know, many time homebuyers as we were that, you know, that's the first thing in their mind is how do I cover the bank loan, and how do I do it as cheaply as possible? And, because, after all, nobody's house really burns down. You know? You you think you don't have to worry about that. That so when you're going in to just cover the bank loan and do it as inexpensively as possible, when disaster strikes, you're probably really in trouble.

And I'm sure we'll talk about more about that when we talk about the insurance guys. But I knew that I had an option between if you lose your house, we'll give you a place to stay for one year, but, you know, for only $50 more. We'll take care of you for two years. Right. And it's like, okay.

50. Yeah. Yeah. Give me the two years. Yeah.

Right. Exactly. And and It could either way. It could have gone either way. And and the insurance companies, they have this little book.

You know? And they go, okay. Boulder County. You're in Lewisville, Colorado 8, Double 027. That's your ZIP code.

Okay. Yeah. You can rebuild a home for $285 a foot. So that's what we're gonna insure your home for is $285 a foot. And we had just gone through that because we had just put solar on top of the house.

Right. And so I said

familiar more recently than normally, people put it in a drawer and don't even think about it

for Exactly. That's the only reason I knew about the the number $2.85 was stuck in my head, and that's the only reason I knew that I had two years instead of one year because we had just gone over that because we put solar on the house. And so he said, but, you know, it's it it is Colorado, and you never know about building costs. So why why don't we give you, like, a 10% inflation rider? And I said, well, how much is that?

He goes, oh, it's like a hundred bucks. And I said, well, how much for 20%? He said, oh, about a hundred and $10. Okay. I'll take that 20%.

Right. And but if you don't ask those questions, know, and you don't get

Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, when you're paying whatever the amount is, you know, 5,000, 7 thousand dollars for the policy Right. To spend that extra $50, to spend that extra hundred bucks, You know, for those two things, if you have a disaster, the benefits are huge. Yeah.

And and the and the upfront cost is is so minimal. It's just a thing that you have to ask. You know, what's the inflation factor? What is the, you know, the changes in building codes?

Mhmm.

You built our house was built at February. The one that we're building now is in 2024. Yeah. You have to have changes in building codes.

Of course.

Right. Right. Bucks more, you get covered for all the changes in building codes. Yeah. And that saved us, you know Yeah.

$50,000 right there. So, you know, it's these little things that everybody go home and look at your insurance policy and call your insurance brokers because those little things really help out if disaster really strikes. Yeah. Not that much upfront.

So what was your, so your friends coached you, which is amazing.

Amazing. What

was the insurance company's initial response? And and was it hard to reach them? I mean, I imagine they were inundated.

No. I really have to give a shout out to the good hands of Allstate if if you don't mind me plugging somebody shamelessly like that. No. We'll try. Compared to yeah.

I mean, it would they should be sponsoring you because they did a great job for us, and it's somebody that you could feel very comfortable with as a sponsor. Compared to the other horror stories that we have heard from all of our neighbors and friends that were involved in this, you know, we we had one of the best experiences ever. Oh, goodness. Yeah. Definitely.

All the insurance companies well, the major guys, anyway, had disaster themes. And so, you know, so it happened on December 30. New Year's Eve happened. New Year's Day is when we could get back into the neighborhood and

Oh gosh.

And just go, holy crap. And then another day or two for, you know, trying to catch our breath. So it, you know, it was still a week out when we made the first phone call, and and, basically, they said, yes. There's a disaster, relief team that will be set up, you know, contact, you know, your your local disaster group. They'll tell you where it is.

And so, you know, by that time, FEMA had gotten involved. Uh-huh. Boulder County, emergency preparedness had gotten involved, and they opened up a center where all the insurance companies had their disaster teams, You know, a couple of local relief agencies, you know, had boots set up there, and so it was Mhmm. You know, look for that because we it wasn't obvious. You know, it's not like you know?

You don't have a TV. You don't have a radio. You don't have any way to sort of find out what's going on in the world, so you really have to have to know to look because your county or your city, somebody is probably the, you know, the local church or synagogue. I mean, somebody is putting this you know, is sponsoring something like this. So, you know, that was kind of our first touch with them and with everything else around us.

And and as but

Ultimately get, just, assigned a a specific adjuster, and how

what was

the relationship like with that person?

Miss Margaret.

Miss Margaret?

Miss Margaret, she kept track of us. She she really, really helped. And and she was they paid us quickly. They paid us everything of our property insurance, you know, the personal

Personal property. Yeah.

Yes. They paid every cent that we had insured. We didn't have to itemize one little thing. Wow. Yeah.

It's a big one because I know a lot of people that had to do a lot of work to get whatever they got. So So miss miss

saw some people needing to create some some kind of documentation or something, but you, of course, had nothing with you. So, they were supportive of you knowing kind of the volume of what a person owns.

Right. Yeah.

Right.

They they went by room, talked about we had a lot of antiques, a lot of really special things that are priceless. And they were just like, okay. We'll send you a check,

and they did.

Wow. That's amazing. So you didn't Yeah. Invest in that regard at all? That's We did not.

Nothing. That's a blessing.

Yeah. It it was a huge blessing as and I would say, you know, Allstate, and and I'll go ahead and and single out USAA as well, you know, just from, again, talking with the neighbors, you know, as far as just really having an insurance adjusting group that was ready to hit the ground running. And and to some degree or another, every other insurance company's job was to first just say no. And and it's just you know, it's it's tough, but that's it is what it is. Again, we were blessed because these guys prompted us.

They said, okay. Here's what you're gonna need. You know? Just draw your home. You know?

And it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be an architect or or or anything, but just draw your home. Here's living room kitchen. Yes. Yes. And then you can also tell the insurance adjuster that, yeah, there was a dining room and and and there was a kitchen, and there and, you know, there was it was approximately x amount of square feet, and there was this big storage area that was upstairs.

There's this big attic area upstairs. All of these things, you know, become usable square footage of your home, and and and it allowed Allstate to sort of know upfront, this is the scope of what burned down. And and here's a drawing of it, and here's and here's the pictures, like you said, go through with your video camera and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, here here's the pictures of what it was, and here's the drawing of how it lays out, And and that gave the adjuster, you know, more of a of an understanding of the scope of of what we had lost. And and so, you know, she was able to comfortably say to us and to the people that she answers to, you know, these guys had, you know, x amount of personal property insurance, and and I can say very comfortably that based on the number of rooms in their homes and the descriptions of what we're seeing here, they lost much more than that.

So just write them a check for the full amount. And and we were blessed with that while 90% of our neighbors were going through the oh, I see. Yes. I see that picture. You you have a nice dresser there in your in your bedroom.

Yeah. What's what's in the top drawer? Socks. What kind of socks are they? Where the you know, where did you get them at Sears or Target or okay.

Jeans. What kind of jeans are those? Are they five o ones, or are they some kind of fancy jeans? How many pairs of jeans were there? I I mean, the the amount of anguish that these people had to go through to relive their lost.

Yeah. Of course.

It it's a horrible it's a horrible thing. I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but almost everybody had to be able to do that.

Yeah. That's you you had to sort of recreate your memories of it. So, of course, there are many things in your home that are simply irreplaceable. And sometimes the policy is placed on replacement value, and sometimes it's written for a % of the value. So how is the was the value determined?

Like, you mentioned antiques, and thank goodness you took those guitars I see behind you in the image. But how did they respect the, you know, the actual price of of antiques versus the the definition of it as a dresser?

So replacement value is a very difficult thing to deal with. It sounds wonderful, and most people, you know, end up paying a few hundred bucks more to get replacement value insurance. But the way that it works is list everything in your home, you know, that wall unit, that dresser, that, you know, candelabra on top of that, you know, and everything else. And and then the adjuster's gonna say, okay. Yeah.

Looks like you got about $300,000 worth of stuff in there. I'll write you a check for a hundred and $80,000 because that's the depreciated value of your $300,000 worth of stuff. Right. And then when you actually do buy a couch or when you actually do buy another wall unit or you actually do buy another set of dishes, well, then we'll write you the rest. So, you know, by the time you so you get your you get your 60% up front, and then you gotta go buy everything and send them the receipts, and, hopefully, you can get up to 300,000 if that's what your if that's what your personal property was coverage was for.

And so it depends again on your memory. It depends again on what you're buying. It depends again on this initial valuation. And and how much is that oval frame with the bubble glass that has my great grandfather? Yeah.

You know, how much is that worth? You know, can you give me 60% of what? Right. I mean so, basically, again, what you should know going in ahead of time is I know you only put the minimum amount of personal property insurance on there to make your bank happy. But if you're buying insurance, really think about what you have and overvalue it because it's gonna be really hard to get it all back if you don't.

Yeah. And, you know, we I had in my the the questions I sent you talked about, you know, most of us have never walked through our homes with a video camera and documented our possessions, although, clearly, it would be a good idea if we did, and and then store them off the premises so that you do have a record of, you know, something that you can't describe the value of it, but a picture's worth a thousand words.

Right.

So you mentioned already in the conversation that you had two years of living off premises in your policy. So can you tell explain to us what that coverage how was that defined, and how was it dispersed?

So, again, even though, miss Margaret, and the good people, the good you know, with the good hands of Allstate, were very good to us, and they took care of everything that we brought up and everything that we asked about. And thank goodness we knew about all those buckets, and we asked about everything. This was an interesting part because, okay, it says right here that they're gonna take care of my living. You know, while I can't live in this house, they'll take care of me being in another house for two years.

Yeah.

So but we couchsurfed for two months, and and then, you know, we had we had another very fortunate rental situation for four months, and then we bought our own house so that That's a nice You know, for the last year, we were actually living in our our own

house. Yeah.

So how does all this work? You know, for the first couple of months as we're couch surfing, you know, here's here's our expenses, and they were more than happy to reimburse those expenses.

Oh, that's

And and and then we got, you know, into this really great rental situation, and they were more than happy to pay that, you know, that lease amount. And then going back to my friends, Michael and Scott, Michael's like, what are you doing? Are you They owe you the amount of money it would take to rent your house fully furnished in your neighborhood for two years. So here I am submitting, resetting, you know I'm I'm sending in receipts for $600, 7 hundred dollars, feeling like I'm really, you know, screwing the the but no. It they owed us, okay, average leases, fully furnished homes in the you know, 7 70 5 hundred, 60 5 hundred dollars a month.

That's what they should be paying you whether you're staying on somebody else's couch or whether you're actually renting another home. That's the amount of money that the insurance company owes you. So Sammy brought that up to miss Margaret, and miss Margaret said yes, and she was more than happy to pay us that money. But if we hadn't asked for it, we'd have never gotten it.

That's right. That's the thing. Yeah. So how did dealing with the insurance company impact you emotionally?

Miss Marvin. Miss Marvin? She did. I mean, they were much more helpful than the mortgage company. Let's put it that way.

There was more stress there. Yeah. There was more stress there.

Yeah. They probably have helped you actually deal with that with the next step, which is the mortgage company. Mhmm. Yeah. I was not as lucky.

That's why I had an independent adjuster because the people assigned to me were just not realistic and just silly. So I I have so many stories to tell, but it's your

episode. One one little side note is worth it, and and and that's the house right next door to us, the one that didn't burn because ours ours burned and and theirs didn't. And so, fortunately, we still have this beautiful tree there on that side of the house, and there's nothing on that side of the house. But their house is right next door to ours, and the wind blew straight onto their house during the fire. The house next door to it, the house next door to it, the house behind us, the house behind us over there, all of those homes went through significant smoke damage remediation.

They had to take out 80% of the drywall. They had to take out all of the insulation.

Like, the plumbing issue. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it was it was and all of these things happened to every house around here. My poor next door neighbors are still not back in their house because their insurance company said, oh, smoke damage. Yeah. We'll wash down the walls.

And Right. I think we'll go ahead and clean your couch for you too. Right. Right. And and so, you know, they're still in a lawsuit with their insurance company.

Yeah. We've totally rebuilt it. They're not home yet.

Yeah. That is unbelievable, the inequities of the system. It's all you know, it's just human being based, which is flawed. It's a flawed system. So I know that our in our pre chat that you were stunned by the way that the funds were dispersed as I was when facing our home disaster.

Unless your mortgage has been fully paid off, ultimately, the mortgage company owns your home. Can you tell us a little bit about how that process worked? Can you outline that for us?

It didn't work. It didn't work at all. You know? So the mortgage company, I think I don't know if I can't imagine this was their first disaster, but it sure seemed like it was. They they told us one thing, and and then as, you know, things progressed, they progressed it totally different.

You know? It's it's like, okay. Yeah. You're still responsible for your loan and, you know, keep making your payments. You know?

When you get your check from the insurance company, send it over to us because it's gonna be made out to us, and you will endorse it, send it back to you, and and, you know, you put it in the bank, and and you pick your home. That's not the way it worked at all. You know? So when the check comes and I sent it into their not the mortgage company, but their their processor company, you know, the people that I I guess it's a third party that that handles this. They've been

lost about how to rebuild a home.

Exactly. So the processor sent it back and said, I'm sorry. You haven't signed your check yet. And I said, no. Because they told me you were gonna sign it first.

They said, no. No. You gotta sign it first. We're gonna keep all the money in the total amount of your loan. And we'll if if there's more in the insurance check than your loan amount, we'll send you that back right away.

So we were really lucky, again, because we had a relatively small loan. We had just renegotiated the whole thing when we you know, just prior to putting on the solar. I had a 2% loan, you know, coming out of the pre COVID days, you know, for an amount of money that that basically, covered the lot. You know? So, you know, the the full value of the house, you know, wasn't even really in in in question with with the amount.

So, you know, we we get, you know, 700,000 back. The mortgage company has a loan of 400,000, so they send us a check for 300,000. And it's like, oh, thank goodness. At least I got that much back. And then I started thinking, what about that poor first time homebuyer who got an 80% mortgage

Yeah.

And then, you know, got the homeowner's insurance just to cover the amount of the mortgage and the cheapest that they got. So they're still trying to fill out all the forms for their personal property and everything else. It it it's and quite frankly, that's one of the reasons why 25 to 30% of these people have not rebuilt because they didn't control their own money. Right. You know?

So we were lucky enough. We got a chunk of money back because we had a relatively small mortgage. And and so we were able to pay. I mean, you you you don't just go build a house. You, you know, you gotta get engineers in there.

You gotta clean it up. You've gotta get architecture, etcetera, etcetera. So, you know, you're gonna spend a hundred grand before you can even put a shovel in the ground. And the mortgage company, there was two problems with them. What you know, one was we'll give you I think they'd sent us, like, $20,000, and and that was what we would get for our soft costs, if you will.

So that hundred thousand that it's gonna cost you for engineering and site cleanup and architects and everything else, they gave us $20,000 to cover all of that. And then they said, we'll give you we'll give you another draw when we have something to inspect.

Right.

So There's a lot

a lot to a lot of work to do before you

There was a lot to

inspect, and it's more Exactly. Dollars worth.

A lot more than $20,000 worth. And it and it went on and and it's time as well. In the meantime, of course, we still get to keep paying that mortgage payment, and they keep get to keep holding all of our money interest free. So, you know, we finally got to the point, you know, burning up that 300,000 that, fortunately, we had an equity, which most early homebuyers would not have. So they finally came and inspected when we had foundations in, and they gave us another, I don't know, not quite a hundred thousand dollars.

So

So let me

make that clear for a sec. I wanna interrupt you. So you would have the ability to float the beginning of the work being done because of the amount of their house that you that you owned outright that wasn't part of the mortgage. Most people are not in that situation, and so you can't step off the curb in you know, to cross the street without the funds to pay for it. It's

That's correct.

Okay. Yeah.

That's correct. But, you know, the the majority of Americans have an 80% mortgage on their house. You know? And and they keep their house for five years. So in those five years, you know, that 80% mortgage and and there's a lot of especially with high, you know, high mortgages and high real estate values, you know, people are getting special mortgages, you know, ninety, ninety five, a hundred percent.

You know? And as long as that's the balance on your mortgage, that's the amount of money that the mortgage company is gonna take from your proceeds. So if you got your house, you know, insured for $285 a square foot and you're in a market where it's gonna cost you $400 a square foot to rebuild that house, which is essentially, you know, what we've gone through. Yeah. And you have no money to to start the process.

You know, it's it's all gotta be out of pocket. And and then the the bad news is is that if you say, I I can't do that. I don't have enough money to, you know, to do it. I've just gotta sell the empty lot. So they got whatever they got from the from the mortgage balance, which is probably not very much, and then they sell the empty lot, which has been damaged because it's had a fire on it.

It's in the middle of a battle zone. So they've lost that. And and but then they get their their their full insurance, $285 a foot. But they don't get the 20% inflation factor. They don't get the 10%, you know, for, for code changes.

They don't, you know, they don't get they don't get any of those other buckets. They just get the $285 a foot and goodbye. So, all of those buckets, you don't get that unless you actually rebuild and spend that money.

Alright. So now let's come back to your process. You've you've now you've gotten the a foundation in, which is amazing. And, you know, somehow on $20,000 and, you know, you've augmented that yourself, Talk about the allotments of money, how you proved you know, how you have to prove what work has been done, the inspection process. How did all that go for you?

So the way that they give you out money is a percentage of what they're holding as a percentage of what the total cost is going to be. Alright? So if you're round numbers. If it's gonna cost you a million dollars to rebuild your house and you spent a hundred thousand dollars to get your lot cleaned up and your foundation in, the inspector will come over, and he'll look at it, and he'll say, yep. There's a foundation in there.

You now get 10% of your mortgage back. So for me, I only had a 40 a $400,000 mortgage, so they gave me $40,000 for the the other hundred thousand that I now spent putting in the foundation. And then you spend another hundred thousand dollars framing it in, and they go, yep. That's another 10% of your cost. Mhmm.

So here's another $40,000. We didn't get our final check from the mortgage company until we had our certificate of occupancy even though just the raw land was worth more than the value of that mortgage. They're they were fully collateralized the the you know, through the entire process, but we didn't get our final check from them until we had our certificate of occupancy. They held my money interest free that long while I was still paying them interest on their mortgage.

Yeah. That's that's that's unbelievable. So in researching the Marshall Fire, I understand that, generally, people were underinsured for many reasons based on the algorithms used in calculating values, inflation, and ever changing cost of building and simply not understanding their policies and what they'll cover. Did you ultimately have, additional out of pocket expenses that, you know, were well beyond what you were being insured for what you had been insured for?

Yeah. I can answer that very shortly because we've talked about a lot of those pieces already. Yeah. We were insured for $285 a foot. We did get a couple of those add ons.

But by the time we got done rebuilding for $430 a foot, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we lost a lot of money. What? Yeah. I mean, we we lost about a a third of the equity in our house Yeah. Because of everything that we had to come out of pocket for.

So It took us all of that personal property money, you know, that we got for personal property. It took all of that to rebuild the house plus more money out of our pocket.

Right. And then you were lucky that you're that you had an insurance company that was so forthcoming with with those pots of money, with those buckets. Yep.

Yeah. Yep.

That's you know, my next question didn't really pertain to you, which is you can't refinance to pull out funds for your property while there's not a house on your lot to appraise. So was was accessing the necessary additional funds an additional challenge?

The way most people had to deal with it is and and our builder, you know, basically gave us the same option. And in fact, he didn't even wanna start building for us until we took out a construction loan. And so he wanted us to replace our 2% mortgage with a seven and a half percent construction loan so that he knew that he would be able to get paid in a timely manner. And and, again, that's, you know, how most of the people had to do it. So in in in that regard, you've got the you you know, the mortgage company is holding insurance money.

The insurance company is not giving you your your mortgage money back. The builder's saying this you know, he understands that train wreck and doesn't wanna be stuck in the middle of it, so he just pay it off and put a put a new construction loan on it. And, again, you don't have you have the equity of the of the the burnt land.

Right.

But you know? So it really becomes a a personal construction loan at that point in time, which is much more costly than than you would think of as as a mortgage. Again, why 30% of the people were not able to rebuild.

Yeah. Yeah. It's horrible. It's, you know, definitely gonna change the entire outlook of your neighborhood.

Yep. We had a builder come in and built they they purchased lots that people weren't gonna build because for whatever reason.

Yep.

And they ended up building four new houses in our little 22 that had to be built here. And so we have new neighbors, which is great, but it's, you know, the old the old neighbors aren't here.

No. It's horrible. I mean, they they can't afford to buy the home that was built on their lot.

Right. Oh, goodness. No.

Yeah. And at one point, you were told that you had to keep paying your homeowners insurance even while there was not a house on the lot to insure. And you have an amazing story about how your efforts resulted in reimbursement of the money that your mortgage company incorrectly imposed on you at top dollar. Can you share that with us?

Yeah. That's I think that's criminal. And and I wish I could get somebody in the state insurance department to believe me on that. The mortgage company, again, you know, you can't blame the mortgage company directly because it was their processor supposedly that's handling all this, but, you know, they were the processor's handling the way the money comes out, and they're also saying you have to have homeowners insurance on your property. And it's like, I don't have any property to insure.

How am I gonna do that? And they said, well, you know, it's it's required. It's a it's a Fannie Mae requirement, and and your loan has been sold to Fannie Mae. So it's a Fannie Mae requirement that you have to have homeowners insurance on your property. So I talked to my Allstate agent, and and he said, what do you wanna what do you wanna insure?

And I was like, well, right now, I've got dirt. And and he goes, well, how how do we insure that? And I said, I don't know, but they're making me get a homeowner's policy. So when I called him back and I said, there are no this this is this was not a kitchen fire. You know?

We're we're not it's it wasn't even a tree falling on our house. There's there's nothing there. There is nothing there. There's nothing in the whole freaking block. You know?

And they said, sorry. Fannie Mae requires insurance. So we're gonna put a lender placed homeowner's insurance policy on your property. We're gonna set up an escrow account, and you can pay it off over the next year. And it's like, no.

You're not gonna do that. I mean, my my insurance company says you can't insure a vacant lot, you know, with with that. So, anyway, they did. They put it on our account. They charge us, like, I don't know, four times.

I think it's what we figured out. It was four times the amount of what our homeowners policy had been. And and I talked to my insurance agent again, and he said, yeah. Those lender placed policies are are very punitive and and very costly. And and even though it's against the law for the lender to benefit, you know darn well they're they're getting a good kickback from that.

So I had to read the Fannie Mae policy book. I think you get on get on the Internet and start

first person in the world that has actually read that document.

They pissed me off. I think they had that site. So I did. And and it was very clear that they require insurance on all improvements on a property. There were no improvements on my property.

These guys were lying to us about the need. Perhaps they were only mistaken about the need to have.

Didn't understand it either. They certainly didn't read the Fannie Mae paperwork.

So I sent it to them. And, of course, they said, well, that doesn't apply to you. And it's like, of course, it applies to me. Oh, yeah. How could it not apply to me?

And that's, you know, blah blah blah blah. So I went through everybody. You know, I and it's so funny because, you know, I need to talk to your boss. Okay. He's not available.

He'll call you tomorrow. So two weeks later, you call him back again, and you say, your boss was gonna call me two weeks ago, and he never did. Okay. Let me see if I can get you in. So you finally talk to his boss who guarantees you that he is absolutely the final authority in this manner.

And I'm sorry, but, yes, you must have an insurance policy placed on you. That's the statute. That's the law. That's your mortgage. That's you know, God wants you to have this insurance policy.

And and and then you go, okay. So who's your boss? I wanna talk to him too. You know? And and I went through everybody in the processor company, and then I went to the lender itself.

I went through everybody in the lender company and finally got I don't know who it was, but she was good. She she must have been, you know, the chairman's personal executive assistant or something because, you know, she listened very intently. And and this is like the one quick thing. I did all this in March and April Yeah. When when when the event happened, and and they agreed with me at that point in time.

And but it was September again when they when they put the escrow on and and put the insurance policy on and said I have to have it. And it's like, well, you agreed with me up until now. Yeah. But, you know, we audited your account, and this is the way it has to be. So, anyway and now we're into February of the next year Yeah.

When I finally get ahold of this lady who seems to have the ear to somebody. And within seventy two hours, we had all of our money back. We had Uh-huh. Our apologies. They closed out the escrow account and, were embarrassed that I was so inappropriately treated.

Right. Oy.

Is an amazing story. Thank you for sharing it. And that's the thing. You not only have to read everything that is surrounding you, but you have to be dogged. And what about property taxes?

Were those adjusted during the period when you could not live on the property?

Yes. They were. Significantly, like, or less.

Mhmm. Yeah. That's great. And did you know to, you know, to check that out, or did they contact you? How did you come to that?

They automatically sent a bill that was reduced.

Oh, that's great. Okay. Yeah. I had to Boulder County.

Yeah. Boulder County. It was a lot in fact, a lot of people were affected.

The widespread area of it. Yeah. Yeah. So I know from having gone through it myself that all of these negotiations, mostly via phone and email, were like having a full time job. How did you manage all that and keep your business running?

Were we lucky? Mean, a lot of things fell through the cracks. You know? But you you first of all, you wake up in the morning and you say, you know, if you've got to be a refugee in the world, be a refugee in The United States, even better yet, a refugee in Colorado, even better yet, be a refugee in Boulder County because there was a lot of support and love and and, you know, so much of our of our motivation came through gratitude, you know, that Boulder County would be proactive in reducing property taxes that the Boulder Community Association you know, that day we went in, you know, in the first week after the fire, you know, with eyes Well, you know, I mean, they handed us a check. Here's 2,500.

You know? Go buy some underwear. You you know? So, you know, some of those things just to get you started, you know, This is a good place to be a refugee, and I forgot what your question was. Sorry.

That's okay. Just about, you know, about how you fit it in. I mean, I just, if if I wasn't in business for myself and could control the amount of time I spent, you know, in every pocket of my day, I I don't know if I could have gotten through my insurance my major insurance claim process and rebuilding. It just you know, I can imagine that it was overwhelming for you. So

It was.

I can see that we have a lot still to talk about, and we're gonna go into another episode with this. So I want to see if you guys will just stay on with me, and we're gonna go with the next thing I wanna talk about is the rebuilding process. So hang on there, and we'll be right back in. We have been speaking with Jeff and Sammy Kinder about the arduous process we all have to go through if and when we have to use our homeowners insurance to cover a major or total loss. We have so much to learn from them that we are going to stop short of my long list of questions and continue our conversation on our next episode.

The Kinders own a company called Advantage Self Storage. Fortunately, none of their multiple locations was in the path of the fires. Amazingly, even having lost their home and everything in it, the Kinders have found a way to give back to the community by making some storage units available for others in the rebuilding process. For information about Advantage Self Storage located in six states, go to www.advantagestorage.com to check out the location nearest you. As always, you can find a link to our guest's business, Advantage Self Storage, on our website.

Go to wwwfromdisastertodreamhome.com, where you can find all of our previous episodes and photos of each step of the construction process. Janet Design Interiors is a full service interior design firm working with commercial and residential clients. If you are thinking about a company move or a major home renovation or you are rebuilding after the loss of your home, please reach out to jana@janadesigninteriors.com.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of From Disaster to Dream Home, the podcast that takes you inside the home building and rebuilding process. Each week, we bring you time tested practices and the latest trends through conversations with top professionals in the building industry. You can find other episodes of From Disaster to Dream Home at ewnpodcastnetwork.com as well as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Audible, and most other major podcast streaming services. Need design help? You can contact us or find out more about our guests at fromdisastertodreamhome.com.

Until next time, let us guide and inspire you as you create the home of your dreams.