[00:00:00] Laura: There's a book that is assigned to seventh graders in my school district about trans kids, and [00:00:05] it's dedicated to a trans kid who killed himself. And I also saw there [00:00:10] was a doctor at a conference giving a speech and talking about this wonderful kid who [00:00:15] killed himself. And so you are sending this message like you'll be some kind of a martyr to the [00:00:20] cause, and you'll be celebrated if you do that.

[00:00:23] Laura: And then they turn around and [00:00:25] while their statements are actually promoting suicide in these children, then they argue, [00:00:30] well, that risk is the reason why we need policies like this. And it's hard to believe they even [00:00:35] have the nerve to make these arguments. They say, well, these kids are at higher risk of suicide, therefore we can't tell the [00:00:40] parents.

[00:00:40] Laura: I mean, imagine saying we think that your child has a condition that puts him at high risk of killing [00:00:45] himself, but we're not gonna inform you of that. 

[00:00:49] SKOT: [00:00:50] You must be some kind of therapist.[00:00:55] 

[00:00:55] Stephanie: Today I'm speaking with Laura Powell. She is an attorney and founder of [00:01:00] Californians for Good Governance, a non-partisan group advocating for civil liberties and [00:01:05] government accountability in California. And today we're going to talk about M [00:01:10] Valley versus Bonta at the Supreme Court and parents' rights, [00:01:15] especially in California, but also the implications around the country, parents' rights to [00:01:20] know how their children are identifying in schools.

[00:01:22] Stephanie: Laura, welcome to the podcast. 

[00:01:24] Laura: Thanks for [00:01:25] inviting me on. Stephanie, 

[00:01:26] Stephanie: thanks for joining and sharing your [00:01:30] expertise. So, uh, tell us about what Mirabelli v Bonta [00:01:35] is. 

[00:01:35] Laura: Well, to go back in California, this really started [00:01:40] in 2014 when, um, AB [00:01:45] 1266 was passed. This dealt with sex segregated facilities [00:01:50] and schools saying that, uh, child can choose which facility, which [00:01:55] sports teams to use based on their gender identity rather than sex.

[00:01:59] Laura: Um, [00:02:00] then in the next couple years, the State Department of Education put out a [00:02:05] page on their website, frequently asked questions about this law, and they included, [00:02:10] uh, sections about gender identity and [00:02:15] privacy and keeping a child's gender identity private from. [00:02:20] Anyone, including the parents, if the child requests and said, this was mandated by this law.

[00:02:24] Laura: [00:02:25] In fact, the law doesn't deal with this at all. So that's the origin of where we have this policy [00:02:30] in California where since at least 2016, every educator in the state [00:02:35] has been told state law requires that you keep a child's gender [00:02:40] identity secret from anyone they want, including their parents, which means they can start [00:02:45] identifying with different pronouns, different names at school, and the parents [00:02:50] won't know.

[00:02:50] Laura: And in fact, we have situations where they're actively lying to the [00:02:55] parents, deceiving them, going to great lengths to cover up what's going on at school in terms [00:03:00] of the child's gender identity. This is not a California only problem. Um, [00:03:05] this is happening in a lot of states. I can't tell you the whole national landscape, but I know there's [00:03:10] stuff going on in New Jersey.

[00:03:11] Laura: This has been a nationwide issue. Um. [00:03:15] So in 2023 is when this started blowing up, I [00:03:20] parents activists had gotten the ear of some people, and one thing that happened is a [00:03:25] conservative school board in California passed a policy saying [00:03:30] that parents would have to be notified if their child started identifying differently at school.

[00:03:34] Laura: [00:03:35] Prior to that, as a offshoot of the California Department of Education's guidance, [00:03:40] the California School Board Association had developed a [00:03:45] policy around secrecy and pretty much every school board [00:03:50] in the state just adopts these model policies put out by the um, [00:03:55] CSBA. So this one school board decided, wait, we're gonna get rid of [00:04:00] that policy and we're gonna replace it with one that says we have to inform parents [00:04:05] if there's a new gender identity.

[00:04:07] Laura: Uh, and so then in the summer of [00:04:10] 2023. The State Department of Education and the State Attorney General came [00:04:15] out, came after the school board for that policy and said it was [00:04:20] illegal, unconstitutional. It was a violation of the children's rights to [00:04:25] privacy for their parents to be informed of what was going on in school.

[00:04:29] Laura: Um, [00:04:30] then in 2024, there was a law passed called AB 1955, [00:04:35] which basically banned school boards from [00:04:40] implementing those kind of notification policies. Although I think this law is [00:04:45] intentionally confusing because they came out and said, well, this will stop the [00:04:50] practice of what they call forced outings, which is what they call, um, [00:04:55] school staff.

[00:04:57] Laura: Informing parents of what's going on with their kids. [00:05:00] So the proponents came out and said, this will stop that practice. And then when people say, but wait, [00:05:05] you know, the constitutional issues and whatnot, they say, whoa, whoa. Well, actually all it [00:05:10] does is confusingly. Um, it, you can't force [00:05:15] the teacher to reveal the information.

[00:05:17] Laura: It doesn't prevent them. It's, it's very [00:05:20] confusing and I think it's intentionally so, so that they can kind of argue it both ways. [00:05:25] And the State Attorney General filed a lawsuit against this, uh, school board, [00:05:30] Chino Valley Unified, and got a preliminary junction in state [00:05:35] court against this parental notification policy.

[00:05:38] Laura: However, [00:05:40] it was because it would've been crafted in a certain way. There were just a few aspects that the judge [00:05:45] found might be problematic. So they basically revised it and continued on. [00:05:50] Uh, the State Attorney general goes around. It was Rob Bonta, who's now the defendant in the [00:05:55] lawsuit. We'll get to. He declares this as a victory that the courts have [00:06:00] upheld his side and said that it's unconstitutional or violates children's rights [00:06:05] to, uh, inform their parents about their gender identity.

[00:06:08] Laura: So this case, [00:06:10] um, Melli v Bonta, which started off as Mirabelli v Olson, [00:06:15] uh, was filed in federal court. This is, uh, a school district in the San [00:06:20] Diego area, and I really think they got very lucky with the judge. And they [00:06:25] also have a legal team that's doing a really superb jobs. I've had my eye on this case [00:06:30] for a while.

[00:06:31] Laura: It's been more than two years. It's been making its way still not [00:06:35] entirely resolved, but, um, the judge at the district court level really understood the [00:06:40] arguments and the issues involved and put out a very strong decision [00:06:45] that really. It goes over everything. It's 52. Well, this one, this is the [00:06:50] order granting summary judgment that came out in just this past December is 52 [00:06:55] pages.

[00:06:55] Laura: Uh, before that there had been a preliminary injunction. This also this case had expanded. It [00:07:00] started off with two plaintiffs that were teachers and they had were being forced to go to great [00:07:05] lengths to lie to parents and deceive them, and they just felt it was [00:07:10] wrong. And, uh, they're also both Christian and they felt, uh, aspects of [00:07:15] being forced to deceive parents violated their [00:07:20] religious beliefs.

[00:07:20] Laura: So there was a free speech ar argument and a, a free exercise [00:07:25] argument. But as this went on, they added. Parents as [00:07:30] plaintiffs, and they also expanded it into a class action that would [00:07:35] include teachers and parents around the state who may be affected by these policies, even [00:07:40] if they're not named plaintiffs.

[00:07:41] Laura: Um, so initially there was a preliminary injunction and now there was a [00:07:45] permanent injunction in December. So the state lost, um, [00:07:50] the, the judge issued his order. We could go over what the order actually says, [00:07:55] although maybe it'll be better if we tease out some of the, um, more, you know, difficult [00:08:00] aspects of how this gets applied.

[00:08:01] Laura: But basically said that there can be [00:08:05] no misleading parents about gender identity. That, um, you [00:08:10] can't require an employee to use a name or pronoun with the child that isn't the [00:08:15] same one they're using with the parent because this, you know, they would be ordered whatever the child said, [00:08:20] you know, call me this.

[00:08:21] Laura: When you talk to my parents, call me this, when you talk to me, they have to notify, [00:08:25] uh. The, the state needs to notify all the schools about this order. [00:08:30] One of the things that also happened over the course of this is, um, that [00:08:35] frequently asked questions I mentioned that informed everybody that there is [00:08:40] a, that AB 2066 passed in 2014 [00:08:45] requires secrecy from parents about gender identity.

[00:08:49] Laura: They took [00:08:50] that page off their website during the course of this litigation, and then they went to the judge and said, well, the case is booked [00:08:55] because we took this page down. Then it turns out though, that [00:09:00] they were still, it's still part of the guidance that's being given out in, um, [00:09:05] training materials for teachers, and they've never changed their position.

[00:09:09] Laura: They, [00:09:10] one of the, the representatives for I think the Department of Education said, no, it's still our [00:09:15] position that this is required, that secrecy is required. So, and they've [00:09:20] also never, you know, repudiated that position that 10 years of, almost 10 years [00:09:25] of. Telling every educator in the state that it is required by law, [00:09:30] that they keep things secret.

[00:09:32] Laura: Um, they just taking down the page [00:09:35] really isn't enough to let everybody know that that was wrong all [00:09:40] along. That that was not the case. That legally, in fact, it's the opposite. So [00:09:45] after the December when in the district court in Southern California, [00:09:50] the state appealed to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, they, [00:09:55] the Knight Circuit Court of Appeals put a stay on the injunction, meaning it [00:10:00] goes back to the status quo before the lawsuit.

[00:10:03] Laura: One of the things you look at [00:10:05] when, if you're a court trying to decide on a stay. [00:10:10] Is the likelihood of success on the merits. So that means they are prejudging the [00:10:15] case to some extent. I here there was a significant record already developed, [00:10:20] but they are saying whether or not they think you're likely to win is one of the factors taken into [00:10:25] account.

[00:10:25] Laura: So the Ninth Circuit said we don't think that the plaintiffs are likely to [00:10:30] prevail in this case. So the plaintiffs go to the [00:10:35] Supreme Court as part of the emergency docket asking them to lift the stay on the [00:10:40] injunction. So that would mean the injunction blocking secrecy policies would go back into [00:10:45] effect.

[00:10:45] Laura: This is not a full hearing on the merits in the Supreme Court. There aren't [00:10:50] oral arguments. Uh, there have been briefs filed, but, and [00:10:55] typically there may not even be an opinion really issued in the case. They're just saying whether or [00:11:00] not the state should be lifted. But the Supreme Court issued a more [00:11:05] substantive opinion.

[00:11:06] Laura: So that happened March 2nd. [00:11:10] Where the Supreme Court came out with an opinion, it was a six three opinion, which is to [00:11:15] be expected. There's six conservative justices and six liberal [00:11:20] justices, um, that said not only, yes, we're gonna lift the stay, at least [00:11:25] re with respect to the parents, they actually didn't lift the stay with respect to the teacher's [00:11:30] claims, but they, um, wrote a longer opinion with some very strong statements [00:11:35] about parents' rights in general.

[00:11:37] Laura: And I'll note that even the [00:11:40] dissent doesn't really dissent on that issue. The dissent is mostly [00:11:45] about procedural issues, and mostly they're criticizing the majority for [00:11:50] issuing such a substantive opinion when they haven't had times to [00:11:55] hear oral arguments and, and, you know, fully develop the record as is normally done.

[00:11:59] Laura: [00:12:00] So even there, it doesn't even signal if they did hear this. As a full [00:12:05] case that you would necessarily be six three. It even could be unanimous, who knows? [00:12:10] But you know, they came out with statements like, [00:12:15] let me just get some quotes. California's policies conceal that [00:12:20] information referring to gender transitions from parents, and facilitate a degree of gender [00:12:25] transitioning during school hours.

[00:12:27] Laura: These policies likely violate parents' [00:12:30] rights to direct the upbringing and education of their children. And again, likely is [00:12:35] here because they haven't heard the full hearing on the merits. That doesn't mean that they really don't [00:12:40] know. They're just, you know, reserving judgment. These policies cut out the primary protectors of [00:12:45] children's best interests.

[00:12:46] Laura: Their parents, parents, not the state, [00:12:50] have primary authority with respect to the upbringing and education of children. [00:12:55] So we have Supreme Court precedents going back like a hundred years on [00:13:00] parents' rights and actually one of those, that last one quotes one of those cases, and it's [00:13:05] really based on long existing case law.

[00:13:08] Laura: We also had last [00:13:10] June, June of 2025, a case, um, Mahmud v Taylor [00:13:15] from the US Supreme Court on parents' rights. And that one dealt with [00:13:20] kindergartens, kindergartners being taught. L-G-B-T-Q books [00:13:25] against without their parents' knowledge or consent. And there have been complaints about these books and [00:13:30] they would not allow opt-outs from religious parents.

[00:13:32] Laura: So this was based on [00:13:35] a first amendment free exercise claim that have violated their rights to direct the [00:13:40] religious upbringing by showing them books. And they weren't just books that sort of [00:13:45] incidentally mentioned the existence of gay people. They were books clearly designed [00:13:50] to normalize being gay, you know, being L-G-B-T-Q, [00:13:55] um, at the kindergarten level.

[00:13:57] Laura: So that case came out and one of the things, [00:14:00] and that was a big groundbreaking parent's rights case, reaffirming the longstanding [00:14:05] precedents going back, um, to around, I think [00:14:10] 1925 is one of the big cases. But what the [00:14:15] court also did here with Mirabelli is they reaffirmed that case. Uh, because I know in [00:14:20] my personal experience as a parent, I've been told by the school that the ma movie Taylor case is just very [00:14:25] narrow, which of course is what opponents always tell you that, that the opinion is just very narrow.

[00:14:29] Laura: Now, [00:14:30] sometimes you have a case, and usually they will signal this by saying, based on these particular [00:14:35] facts, this is how we're finding it. And they really emphasized that that was not what [00:14:40] Mahmud said. And that's what the court reaffirmed here. They chastised the ninth [00:14:45] Circuit for saying something along those lines in their stay order issued.

[00:14:49] Laura: [00:14:50] In the Mirabelli case, they said, no, this was not a narrow case. This applies much more broadly. This Mahmud [00:14:55] was a big statement about parents' rights and they just brushed it aside and it does apply here. [00:15:00] Um, I'll note that there's two [00:15:05] aspects to the arguments here. Um, there is a religious objection [00:15:10] from parents about.

[00:15:12] Laura: Having their children [00:15:15] socially transitioned as they call it. And then there's a substantive due [00:15:20] process claim, which, um, is based on the [00:15:25] 14th amendment. And here what we're really talking about substance due process is [00:15:30] the way we had abortion, uh, as a constitutional right, which of course has now been overturned.[00:15:35] 

[00:15:35] Laura: But it's where justices are saying there is such a longstanding [00:15:40] right, that to violate it, even though it's not explicitly written in the constitution, [00:15:45] it exists there and that government can't violate it. Um, [00:15:50] there's been, generally the conservative justices have been critical [00:15:55] of the doctrine of substantive due process.

[00:15:58] Laura: That's another thing that comes up with the dissent [00:16:00] in mirabelli, where the. They're criticized for being [00:16:05] hypocrites because they, they've, um, addressed this. They've, they've criticized [00:16:10] Substative due process in the past, but there is a concurring opinion. Mirabelli from Justice [00:16:15] Barrett joined by, uh, Gorsuch and Roberts that discusses [00:16:20] this.

[00:16:20] Laura: It says, no, no, we were critical of expanding this too much to things like abortion [00:16:25] rights, which are just kind weren't around when the Constitution was written. [00:16:30] They are not so fundamental to the function of society. But in the case of something like parents' [00:16:35] rights, this has always been part of our understanding of [00:16:40] what living in a free society is.

[00:16:41] Laura: Parents raise children. I would, I would argue personally, [00:16:45] if it didn't get written down it, you know, not every right is explicitly [00:16:50] articulated in the Constitution, and I don't think that 250 years ago anybody's thinking [00:16:55] that someday. That would be question something as basic as the fact that parents have the [00:17:00] primary authority in raising their children would be something at risk.

[00:17:04] Laura: And [00:17:05] yeah, in my lifetime, I have not seen it go this far. Conservatives have always [00:17:10] emphasized parents' rights, families more, and progressives maybe look to [00:17:15] the government, but for a bigger role. But never did we [00:17:20] really talk about cutting out parents to this degree where they're [00:17:25] not even allowed to be informed.

[00:17:27] Laura: So that's the basic legal [00:17:30] landscape. I think there's a lot to tease out in terms of what this looks like at [00:17:35] school and what the implications are. I really, I like to. [00:17:40] Debunk the arguments of the proponents of these [00:17:45] secrecy policies. 'cause they really, they don't stand up to scrutiny [00:17:50] very well. And I, I've been looking forward to seeing this litigated and that's why this [00:17:55] case in particular had a good judge who's really breaking down the arguments and where they [00:18:00] don't make sense.

[00:18:00] Laura: And good lawyers who are able to help the judge see where the arguments [00:18:05] don't make sense. I mean, we're talking about, when you look at what you [00:18:10] hear from proponents first, they'll say things like, well, if the child doesn't wanna tell [00:18:15] his parents, there must be a reason now. [00:18:20] Yeah, I guess there could be a reason.

[00:18:22] Laura: Their implication is it, it's abuse. They're [00:18:25] scared of abuse. I don't think it's fair to say that [00:18:30] if a child. Keeps a secret from their parents that it's because they fear [00:18:35] abuse. I don't think that's true at all. I think it's very normal for children to keep secrets from [00:18:40] parents. And then I also wonder what we mean by abuse, because [00:18:45] you do see this trend, right?

[00:18:46] Laura: This sort of, everybody's a snowflake where somehow [00:18:50] an uncomfortable conversation gets described as abuse. [00:18:55] And I think that's, 

[00:18:56] Stephanie: you know, 

[00:18:56] Laura: the primary reason why a child would not tell their parent [00:19:00] that they now identify as a different gender is because they're concerned about it being [00:19:05] uncomfortable. Or maybe their parents are gonna, you know, monitor their internet [00:19:10] use or who they're hanging out with, what, what they're being influenced by.

[00:19:14] Laura: [00:19:15] But there's also this assumption, and they constantly go to that. Well, these parents are abusive. [00:19:20] There's abusive parents out there, and they're going to harm their [00:19:25] children if they find out they're transgender. In fact, I have never [00:19:30] heard of a case of this happening. I've asked, I really think it would be widely publicized if it had happened.[00:19:35] 

[00:19:35] Laura: I have had people share news articles that very sadly, parents [00:19:40] abuse their children physically for bad grades. Uh, legally [00:19:45] parents have to find out about bad grades, so no one's suggesting [00:19:50] that we hide that kind of information from them. And another [00:19:55] problem with this abuse narrative is that, um, teachers are [00:20:00] saying that they suspect the parents are abusive and they're not doing anything other than [00:20:05] keeping secrets from the parents.

[00:20:06] Laura: Of course, they're legally required to report this to the authorities, [00:20:10] and so the proper steps can be taken to intervene. The children are going home to the parents where the [00:20:15] teacher's not there to supervise. They're spending vacations summers with these [00:20:20] supposedly abusive parents and also. [00:20:25] Keeping these secrets does [00:20:30] not, the teacher is keeping the secret, and this is one of the, the rhetoric about [00:20:35] this being a forced outing by telling parents that the child is transgender, [00:20:40] the child is already out at school.

[00:20:43] Laura: In these situations, [00:20:45] everybody at school would know. I mean, typically I guess it's possible. Some people would know and [00:20:50] some people wouldn't. 'cause they allow the child this total control over the information. But the [00:20:55] parent could easily end up finding out this information. And if they [00:21:00] are prone to abusing the child, you're giving them a false sense of [00:21:05] security by promising them that you're keeping the secret.

[00:21:08] Laura: And I actually saw that in [00:21:10] a training video from an organization that promotes these secrecy policies. They, they admitted [00:21:15] that. So the whole abuse narrative falls apart [00:21:20] very quickly. And not only that, what you're seeing them doing. They're saying some [00:21:25] parents are abusive, so we're gonna apply this policy to all parents.

[00:21:29] Laura: And that [00:21:30] is something very explicit in Supreme Court jurisprudence that you cannot [00:21:35] treat all parents as if they're abusive, because only in that case [00:21:40] can the government intervene and, and come between the parent and the child. [00:21:45] So this, by pretend treating all parents as abusive, you're allowing the government to come [00:21:50] in and interrupt the parent child relationship [00:21:55] in all cases with all parents.

[00:21:58] Laura: And that's so [00:22:00] clearly unconstitutional. 

[00:22:02] Stephanie: Nicely done debugging the abuse [00:22:05] angle. I, I feel like I have this conversation. More often [00:22:10] than I'd like to in my line of work, but it's, it's amazing [00:22:15] how pervasive these sneaky little lies can be. [00:22:20] Right? Because I've even talked to parents of sound mind, [00:22:25] um, who themselves were concerned about a child having [00:22:30] gender identity issues, who got wrapped up in this narrative.

[00:22:34] Stephanie: It's so [00:22:35] pervasive in the culture, right? This sense that if a child and we're, we're talking, you [00:22:40] know, possibly an 11-year-old, 13, 15, [00:22:45] 17, um, you know, some of these kids are quite young. Uh, if a [00:22:50] kid acts as though, oh no, something bad will happen if my parents [00:22:55] find out, people get sucked into that. And I think it shows such a lack [00:23:00] of judgment because.

[00:23:02] Stephanie: At that age, they're designed [00:23:05] to be dramatic, to be hyperbolic. They're experiencing many emotions [00:23:10] for the first time, right? We all know what middle school, what, what the [00:23:15] reputation of middle school behavior is. It's to exaggerate and [00:23:20] distort and gossip and spread rumors because it's very [00:23:25] exciting having all these brand new feelings coming online in adolescence, and you're learning what [00:23:30] gets attention.

[00:23:31] Stephanie: Um, so. I, I wish that [00:23:35] we were all a little bit more adult about these things, but, um, [00:23:40] that's exactly what happens, what you just described. And so here's how I break it down when I'm [00:23:45] talking to someone who, who's stumped by that, right? Because I, I do, like I said, I get my [00:23:50] parents worried about their own child, who of course they know they would never [00:23:55] harm because of some gender identity issue.

[00:23:56] Stephanie: They're just trying to help them in the appropriate, [00:24:00] cautious manner. Uh, you know, but who are worried, oh, if I tell [00:24:05] my, you know, my 13 year old's friends, parents, that they're in this gender thing [00:24:10] together, what if my kid's friend gets abused? It's like, well, well [00:24:15] hang on. Okay? Because in the event that we're act, in the unlikely [00:24:20] event that we're actually dealing with.

[00:24:24] Stephanie: [00:24:25] Abusive parents we're talking physical or sexual abuse, things that are actually abuse, right? [00:24:30] Emotional abuse. That's where the criteria can become a little bit more [00:24:35] debatable and we can, we can save that section of the conversation for later because there are people who [00:24:40] wanna say that not affirming is a form of emotional abuse.

[00:24:43] Stephanie: Um, but [00:24:45] in the event that we're dealing with things like physical or sexual abuse or neglect. [00:24:50] Knowing what I know about human nature, I cannot imagine a situation [00:24:55] in which a parent was never abusive before until that moment. [00:25:00] But it's because the kid declares a gender identity issue that now the parent becomes [00:25:05] abusive.

[00:25:05] Stephanie: It was just waiting to happen. Nothing else triggered the abuse, right? But [00:25:10] now that the kid says, I'm Transo, that's when the belt comes out. [00:25:15] This is not something I have ever seen happen. And anyone with common sense who really thinks [00:25:20] about this knows that, you know, if a parent is going to be abusive, [00:25:25] they're gonna be abusive over whatever BS you didn't feed the cat.

[00:25:29] Stephanie: [00:25:30] Or like you said, you gotta be on your report card. Um, abuse is [00:25:35] quite arbitrary and an abuser is always looking for a reason to take [00:25:40] out their anger on their victim. Uh, so I think the [00:25:45] whole argument that. We suspect abuse is possible, and so [00:25:50] therefore we're gonna keep this a secret and that'll prevent the abuse from happening that [00:25:55] that argument just completely falls apart.

[00:25:57] Stephanie: You nailed it when you said that. [00:26:00] Essentially we have mandated reporting laws, so if you have a reason to [00:26:05] suspect that this child is in danger at home, [00:26:10] whatever reason you have, you need to call up your local Child Protective [00:26:15] Services and disclose that information. As a mandated reporter myself, I know how it goes.[00:26:20] 

[00:26:20] Stephanie: I know that if there's a situation where I'm not quite sure whether it counts as [00:26:25] abuse or neglected uh, or not, my duty is to contact CPS and say, [00:26:30] Hey, I have a situation. Can I run it by you? Hypothetically, I'm gonna describe without identifying the [00:26:35] family, I'm gonna describe this and you tell me if I need to report it or not, and they will tell me, [00:26:40] right?

[00:26:40] Stephanie: And sometimes they say, yeah, go ahead and report. And [00:26:45] then they don't do anything. That's the follow-up is that, you know, they talked to a supervisor and it's nothing, but, [00:26:50] but that's the, that is how we're expected to behave as mandated reporters, whether [00:26:55] therapists, doctors, teachers, anyone who works with children in a professional capacity.

[00:26:58] Stephanie: So the [00:27:00] idea that a family is actually abusive, but you can prevent the abuse [00:27:05] not by reporting what you suspect to the appropriate authorities or by [00:27:10] investigating the issue yourself, but just by, by keeping this one little secret, it's [00:27:15] just such a bullshit argument, and I feel like I have to debunk [00:27:20] it almost every single week.

[00:27:22] Laura: Your trans identified kid won't listen to [00:27:25] reason, because reason isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who knows [00:27:30] how to communicate in an empathic 

[00:27:32] Stephanie: yet strategic manner. Our [00:27:35] OGD repair gives you over 120 lessons in the psychology and communication [00:27:40] tools that actually work when normal parenting doesn't.

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[00:28:01] Laura: And you touched on something there too, about, um, [00:28:05] kids being very susceptible to these ideas.

[00:28:08] Laura: And I think one thing that [00:28:10] goes on here too, right? They're telling kids you should be scared. 

[00:28:13] Stephanie: Yep. 

[00:28:14] Laura: They also do [00:28:15] something very irresponsible, um, on the topic of suicide, that is a big [00:28:20] part of this issue. The arguments being made and you hear public [00:28:25] figures constantly talking about how trans kids are gonna commit [00:28:30] suicide.

[00:28:31] Laura: It's been well known for a long time. There's guidelines out there on how to make [00:28:35] public statements about suicide and you don't say things like that. That [00:28:40] attributing suicide to a cause, an external cause like [00:28:45] that, um, is irresponsible. And you see also this, [00:28:50] that, like, there's a book that is, um, reading, uh, assigned to [00:28:55] seventh graders in my school district about trans kids.

[00:28:57] Laura: And it's dedicated to a [00:29:00] trans kid who killed himself. And so, and I also saw there was a, um, [00:29:05] doctor at a conference giving a speech and talking about this wonderful [00:29:10] kid who killed himself. And so you also are sending this message like you'll [00:29:15] be some kind of a martyr to the cause and you'll be celebrated if you [00:29:20] do that.

[00:29:20] Laura: And, uh, you know, so, and then they turn around and while [00:29:25] they actually, their statements are actually promoting suicide in these [00:29:30] children. And then they argue, well, that risk is the reason why we need [00:29:35] policies like this. And it's hard to believe they even have the nerve to make these arguments. [00:29:40] They say, well, these kids are at higher risk of suicide, therefore we can't tell the parents.

[00:29:44] Laura: I mean, [00:29:45] imagine saying we think that your child has a condition that puts 'em in high risk of [00:29:50] killing themself, but we're not gonna inform you of that. 

[00:29:54] Stephanie: Those [00:29:55] two arguments work against each other. You can't have it both ways. So [00:30:00] either a child who declares a trans or other identity at school, [00:30:05] that identity is evidence that they fall into this category that does have high risk.[00:30:10] 

[00:30:10] Stephanie: Uh, either that's true or you can [00:30:15] make the argument that this is something that needs to be kept secret from parents. But, but you just nailed [00:30:20] the, the conflict there. Well, if, if indeed this is evidence that this [00:30:25] child is at high risk of suicide. Isn't it dangerous for the parents [00:30:30] not to be informed their child is in a high risk category?

[00:30:32] Stephanie: Like you said, Laura, who's gonna keep them safe [00:30:35] 24 7 when they're home for the weekend and holiday breaks? 

[00:30:39] Laura: Yeah, and [00:30:40] we also, this is a myth, you know, this is this sort of emotional blackmail, right? Of, if you [00:30:45] don't affirm there, um, gender confusion that [00:30:50] they might commit suicide. This is how they've gotten parents to go along with this.

[00:30:53] Laura: Um, the A [00:30:55] CLU attorney before the Supreme Court, I think it was last year, [00:31:00] um, was forced to admit that actually there is no evidence that higher [00:31:05] rates of suicide among these kids, there is perhaps evidence of [00:31:10] higher rates of sui suicidality. But you know, to what [00:31:15] extent if you control for the other psychological problems, these kids.

[00:31:19] Laura: Are [00:31:20] usually suffering from, um, if you also consider the fact the messaging they're getting that [00:31:25] they should, that they are gonna commit. If you, you bombard them with messaging that they're likely to [00:31:30] commit suicide, of course they're going to think about suicide at times. So [00:31:35] it's kind of, they've created the problem and then they point to that problem they've created as [00:31:40] one of the reasons why they need the policies that they want.

[00:31:43] Stephanie: Exactly. It's a perfect [00:31:45] storm of comorbidities, which as you just explained, [00:31:50] that, that's what explains the suicide risk factor. If, if you take away [00:31:55] the gender dysphoria diagnosis and just look at what else is going on with this kid clinically, the [00:32:00] suicide risk tends to match the other diagnoses. No big surprise there.[00:32:05] 

[00:32:05] Stephanie: Um, and then the combine that with the impressionability. [00:32:10] Of these youth. And as you were saying, the, um, you know, the, the [00:32:15] clinical term for this is the secondary gain of the diagnosis, right? The, [00:32:20] the social reward and benefit that comes from identifying [00:32:25] into this, uh, category of person that's considered like a special class of victim that [00:32:30] gets special protections and things.

[00:32:31] Stephanie: So, um, the impressionability, [00:32:35] the comorbidities, uh, what these kids are being told. [00:32:40] And then there are other factors we won't get into here on, on the [00:32:45] suicide front. We can, uh, I always get asked to speak about that, but I don't wanna go down that rabbit [00:32:50] hole right now to, to bring it back to your, um, [00:32:55] description of what's going on legally.

[00:32:57] Stephanie: Can I ask you about this concept [00:33:00] of parents' rights versus child's rights? So you mentioned, um, when you were [00:33:05] explaining what's going on legally, um, that the argument in [00:33:10] favor of children being allowed to [00:33:15] keep secrets from their parents and having, um, teachers and school [00:33:20] administrators keeping that secret for them.

[00:33:22] Stephanie: You used the phrase, uh, [00:33:25] violation of children's rights to privacy, and I thought that was an interesting phrase [00:33:30] because what is a child's right to privacy? And like you said, you're talking about a situation [00:33:35] where a kid is out a as this new identity amongst [00:33:40] their, their teachers, their peers. So can you explain how the, [00:33:45] the argument was made of this idea that a child has a right to privacy, [00:33:50] specifically a right.

[00:33:52] Stephanie: To get all these people on board with keeping a [00:33:55] secret specifically from their parents. 'cause that's a particular definition of a child's right to [00:34:00] privacy. It's not like a child's right to a private changing room. Right? Like 

[00:34:04] Laura: yeah. It's [00:34:05] an absurd argument. And that was one of the things that when this first blew up on the scene, [00:34:10] that caught my attention because it was so absurd.

[00:34:12] Laura: One of the ways that they make this argument is [00:34:15] conflating sexual orientation and gender identity. And you see that happening a lot in every [00:34:20] kind of argument around gender ideology. That the conflation of those two things allows them [00:34:25] to make arguments that may apply to sexual orientation and then [00:34:30] just switch them over and apply them to gender identity.

[00:34:32] Laura: So the argument could be [00:34:35] made, uh, it was made in one case that doesn't have any presidential value, just a lower district [00:34:40] court. But that, uh, a girl in a high [00:34:45] school was holding hands with her girlfriend. She got [00:34:50] in trouble 'cause of the rule against PDA at school and so they told [00:34:55] her parents about the incident and there was an argument made that the school had [00:35:00] violated her right to privacy because it was none of her parents' business that she was holding hands with a girl.[00:35:05] 

[00:35:05] Laura: The judge said that argument would be correct, however, they had a good reason to tell the parents because she [00:35:10] was in trouble, so it didn't apply there. But so that judge said, well, yeah, if [00:35:15] you just called up, if you a teacher just inadvertently found out that this child [00:35:20] was gay and just called up the parents to tell them without any reason, [00:35:25] then that might violate some sort of privacy.

[00:35:27] Laura: Right? To just keep their private life private. [00:35:30] Well, that's because sexual orientation sexuality is inherently a private matter. [00:35:35] But what they've done with gender identity is, and legally under California law, sex [00:35:40] and gender identity are the same thing. You are that sex, if you identify as that for purposes [00:35:45] of schools and just about any other purpose.

[00:35:48] Laura: So what they're actually [00:35:50] saying is a parent doesn't have the right to know the child's sex or gender [00:35:55] identity. That's just beyond absurd. I mean, of course this isn't private [00:36:00] information. Um, there's also cases that say something like, you know, in a [00:36:05] situation where there was a man who had undergone surgical the whole thing [00:36:10] and passed as a woman, that when somebody revealed publicly that this person was actually [00:36:15] born a man and had undergone all these medical treatments to make them appear as a woman, that that violated [00:36:20] his right to privacy.

[00:36:22] Laura: And that makes sense too, right, to say, well, this is medical [00:36:25] issues. That's a private thing. Your name and your sex are not [00:36:30] private matters. And once you also reveal them publicly, your expectation [00:36:35] of privacy pretty much evaporates. Um, so yet the right to privacy [00:36:40] issue is ridiculous. Um, I think there was another part of your [00:36:45] question.

[00:36:45] Stephanie: Well, I was sort of comparing and contrasting the phrase child's rights versus [00:36:50] parents' rights. I think the idea of children's rights is interesting here. I mean, [00:36:55] Katie Faust, you, you may know her, she's very conservative and considers herself [00:37:00] a children's rights advocate. And, and she's [00:37:05] defining children's rights in ways that I think much better align with children's needs.[00:37:10] 

[00:37:10] Stephanie: Um, whereas this current kind of modern framing of children's rights. I [00:37:15] don't think reflects what's in their best interest. 

[00:37:18] Laura: I actually studied a [00:37:20] lot of international human rights before I switched areas. And um, there's the [00:37:25] convention on the rights of the child, which has been ratified by almost every country in the world, not the United [00:37:30] States.

[00:37:30] Laura: And this was always this big criticism in the human rights community. Uh, and it was [00:37:35] seen as the US was too conservative. This was like a progressive, uh, [00:37:40] treaty. But if you look even there, which is considered a progressive [00:37:45] document, the framing refers a lot to parents' involvement in the child's life. [00:37:50] Like the child has a right to have a parent help them.

[00:37:54] Laura: And you [00:37:55] also see laws at the federal level, um, ferpa, the Federal [00:38:00] Education Rights Privacy Act, and it protects. [00:38:05] The privacy of school records, but all of those rights belong [00:38:10] to the parents. The child, if they're under 18, has no right to access their own records. [00:38:15] It's entirely on the parents. This was a bipartisan bill when it passed decades [00:38:20] ago.

[00:38:20] Laura: It was not considered controversial. So yes, I absolutely [00:38:25] agree with that framing that parents' rights and children's rights are not in conflict [00:38:30] except in the rare cases of abuse where the government does need to step in. A [00:38:35] child needs a parent to protect their rights. Taking the parent out of the picture [00:38:40] makes them vulnerable to abuse the um, school [00:38:45] teachers at school.

[00:38:45] Laura: They can say they love the children all they want, but they're [00:38:50] do not love the parent, the children, as much as the parent does. The parent is the person most [00:38:55] likely to look out for the child's best interest. And [00:39:00] so removing that is leaving that child on their own to navigate these issues [00:39:05] without somebody who really loves them to advocate on their behalf.

[00:39:08] Laura: So yeah, I think [00:39:10] sometimes this parent's rights has blown up the past few years as this [00:39:15] conservative movement. It's been dismissed as right wing, but parents' rights and children's rights [00:39:20] are inseparable. And I sometimes say, maybe we should talk about family rights or children's [00:39:25] rights because parents' rights has developed this stigma.

[00:39:28] Laura: But you see this reflected [00:39:30] in the Supreme Court cases over the past a hundred years as well. [00:39:35] Um, yeah, I need to, that, that framing that you're bringing up is absolutely [00:39:40] dead on accurate. 

[00:39:41] Stephanie: When we enable the idea that [00:39:45] parents' rights are in conflict with children's rights, I think [00:39:50] ironically it's, it renders children more vulnerable to [00:39:55] exploitation because.

[00:39:57] Stephanie: Of course, any child [00:40:00] or adolescent who's beginning to rebel, beginning to [00:40:05] individuate, whether that manifests in a particularly rebellious manner or [00:40:10] whether that manifests through things like secrecy and triangulation, which is what, um, [00:40:15] these legal cases are about, um, that kid is [00:40:20] going to be particularly vulnerable to anyone telling them what they wanna hear, [00:40:25] right?

[00:40:25] Stephanie: And we know that this is how grooming takes place. And grooming is one of those words, right? It's considered a do a [00:40:30] right wing dog whistle. It's another one of these very loaded terms. But, but it is the reality [00:40:35] that it, when you're just in that phase of reacting, pushing [00:40:40] away that something is wrong because mom said it, because dad said it.

[00:40:44] Stephanie: Therefore, the [00:40:45] opposite of what they said is true. Therefore, I am aligned with whoever [00:40:50] says the opposite. Whoever positions themself. In the [00:40:55] opposite manner. Uh, that's what in my, in my course, they call a gameable heuristic. In other [00:41:00] words, it is a mental shortcut that is easily exploited. It's sort of [00:41:05] like, you know, the whole red team blue team thing, right?

[00:41:08] Stephanie: Uh, in politics, right? If [00:41:10] you have that sort of tribal mentality that all the people who [00:41:15] affiliate themselves with my political party are always the virtuous ones and the intelligent [00:41:20] ones, and the people on the other team, they're the bad guys. Well, that makes it very easy for someone to sort of [00:41:25] hack into your moral framework and say, oh, oh, here's, I, I'm a good guy.

[00:41:28] Stephanie: Here's, I'm gonna put [00:41:30] on my sheep's costume here because I know exactly how to signal to you [00:41:35] that I'm one of the safe, trustworthy people. And I just feel like that's so easily [00:41:40] exploited. And so while parents aren't [00:41:45] perfect. And many adolescents are beginning to develop, [00:41:50] uh, grievances with their parents that have some basis in reality.

[00:41:54] Stephanie: Uh, you know, [00:41:55] they're, they're frustrated with this or that shortcoming on behalf of their parent. It's like, if you think [00:42:00] that's bad, wait till you see what can disguise [00:42:05] itself as virtue that is on your side here. And where that can [00:42:10] lead can lead to a much, much darker place. 

[00:42:12] Laura: Yeah, I mean, you talk about adolescents [00:42:15] and of course that's most cases are gonna be happening in adolescents, but there's no bottom [00:42:20] age, just to note this.

[00:42:21] Laura: And they explicitly say this, these could be preschoolers changing their [00:42:25] gender at school without their parents' knowledge. And um, and yeah, this thing about [00:42:30] signaling. What did you say? But, um, I saw recently where [00:42:35] teachers unions are handing out badges for staff and teachers to [00:42:40] wear, saying, I'm a safe person if you're L-G-B-T-Q.

[00:42:43] Laura: And there's [00:42:45] definitely that trend to say, you know, I'm signaling to you I'm safe and you can talk to [00:42:50] me about things that you can't talk to your parents about. And that absolutely [00:42:55] normalizing that is, is terrifying because I'm sure most of the teachers have good [00:43:00] intentions, but it's very easy for somebody who does not to slip in there.

[00:43:04] Laura: Um, and [00:43:05] I've also read so much commentary from anonymous teachers online, so take, take, [00:43:10] you know, with a grain of salt, but definitely say, no. They, we know these kids better than their [00:43:15] parents do this very self-righteous, you know, outright saying, we, we can do better. [00:43:20] We can parent these kids better. Um, you know, and I guess they're hearing like [00:43:25] the complaints from the kids and they're just taking it all at face value that these parents are just [00:43:30] horrible.

[00:43:30] Laura: And so they, they need to step in and be involved in [00:43:35] parenting. And it also goes into broader trends beyond this that goes into sort [00:43:40] of the overall role of schools versus parents that you see across the [00:43:45] board and schools saying, well, the parents might have the wrong values. And that's what [00:43:50] this comes down to ultimately, right?

[00:43:51] Laura: That the parents who have conservative values, [00:43:55] religious values, who don't believe in gender ideology, we need to [00:44:00] bypass them. We need to indoctrinate the kids the correct way of thinking. And these [00:44:05] parents are wrong. So we need to step in. I mean, this is a scary thing when it comes to [00:44:10] ideology and morality.

[00:44:11] Laura: It is not the school's role. And so I think we are gonna see more Supreme [00:44:15] Court cases coming out. I mean, that's why I said this isn't the only one. They seem anxious to [00:44:20] address this issue because it's. It's scary to the extent to which they [00:44:25] are intruding in what is supposed to be the parent's role. 

[00:44:28] Stephanie: The road to hell is [00:44:30] absolutely paved with the very best of intentions.

[00:44:33] Stephanie: And [00:44:35] I just wanna call out the hubris of the, the [00:44:40] educator, you know, the bleeding heart liberal educator who, who feels that they have a [00:44:45] relationship with the child that's more special than the parents. And, and to [00:44:50] call it, part of what's going on here is that during adolescence, there's a [00:44:55] tendency to shift idealization from parents to other authority [00:45:00] figures.

[00:45:00] Stephanie: Um, you know, the, the sort of, as, as [00:45:05] as small children, you idealize your parents. Like they're God, they know everything. They, they're all [00:45:10] knowing, all powerful, all loving, you know, middle childhood. [00:45:15] Some of that starts to fall apart. You realize your parents don't know everything, don't control everything.

[00:45:19] Stephanie: [00:45:20] Then in adolescence, the beginning of the drive to individuate kicks in. You see more of the flaws in your [00:45:25] parents. You're more drawn towards the outside world. And so it's very easy [00:45:30] as an authority figure of any kind, whether you're, um, a teacher, [00:45:35] a mentor or coach, a therapist. It's something we need to watch out for as mental health professionals as [00:45:40] well.

[00:45:40] Stephanie: That the kid's looking to you in the ways that you're different from their parents [00:45:45] going, oh, that's also, that's also a good thing that, that dad, mom, and dad don't have [00:45:50] that quality, but I wanna be like that too. You know, they're, they're looking and it's not a bad [00:45:55] instinct for a kid to want to source parts of their personalities and value systems [00:46:00] from a variety of people to look up to.

[00:46:01] Stephanie: That's, that's the idea of the village. Right? It's not a [00:46:05] bad thing inherently, but it's a, it's a risky thing. It's a vulnerability. [00:46:10] And so as, uh, an educator or a [00:46:15] therapist or, or working in any capacity with kids, right at that age. I imagine [00:46:20] that feels really good when you are the one, or you're one of the ones that they're shifting [00:46:25] that idealization onto.

[00:46:26] Stephanie: And with that comes things like triangulation and [00:46:30] splitting. These are psychological terms that I talk about in my course for parents, ROGD repair, [00:46:35] where kids, you know, they're black and white about it, so it's parent bad, you good, [00:46:40] or you know, this quality bad, this other quality good. And then [00:46:45] as the educator or the the therapist who's, um, whose [00:46:50] own vulnerabilities, like their ego is being, uh, you know, kind of tested [00:46:55] here, you feel that pull because you're being idealized.

[00:46:57] Stephanie: Some quality maybe that you've worked hard to [00:47:00] cultivate in yourself or a skill you have that again, maybe the kids don't, parents don't have is, is [00:47:05] being admired by this child. And so I can easily [00:47:10] see how some of these teachers. End up making [00:47:15] those incredibly arrogant claims, like we know the kids better than their parents do or whatever.

[00:47:19] Stephanie: 'cause yeah, they're shifting, they're transferring some of that tendency to [00:47:25] idealize onto you. And meanwhile, the parents are really feeling it on the [00:47:30] opposite end of things. You know, they're feeling pushed away. Teenagers are rolling their [00:47:35] eyes at everything. Um, you know, one of, one of our [00:47:40] kids, as he's moved into his teenage years, he goes from laughing at his dad's jokes to using [00:47:45] the word ridiculous about everything.

[00:47:47] Stephanie: His dad says, oh, you're being ridiculous. You know, [00:47:50] I mean, these, these are the little shifts that that take place. But gosh, it's such [00:47:55] a. Trap, and this is where I wanna kind of go off on that tangent about like the [00:48:00] dangers of childlessness. And I say this as someone who doesn't have my own biological children, which I'm very open [00:48:05] about here, that I'm a stepparent.

[00:48:07] Stephanie: Um, but I, I feel like, yeah, in a culture where many [00:48:10] people are choosing not to have children for whatever reasons, economic, environmental, whatever [00:48:15] it might be, that it's just, it's a vulnerability to look out for, right? It's [00:48:20] not to say, I, I don't take the position. Some people do that. Having your own [00:48:25] children is the only path to maturity.

[00:48:27] Stephanie: I don't think that's fair. I think there are a lot of [00:48:30] paths, but, but it is a, a vulnerability, right? If we don't go through [00:48:35] that particular rite of passage that the maternal and paternal instincts. [00:48:40] Including the desire to leave a legacy, to have an impact, [00:48:45] to shape someone's development in a meaningful way that we can, you know, overstep our [00:48:50] bounds, overestimate our roles, underestimate the challenges that the parents are [00:48:55] facing, and then, and end up believing some, you know, 13-year-old [00:49:00] kids.

[00:49:01] Stephanie: Very exaggerated, distorted, [00:49:05] hyperbolic view of things. Sorry, that's my soapbox. 

[00:49:09] Laura: You know, [00:49:10] that's not something that was on my radar, this childlessness until fairly recently and I [00:49:15] had children quite late, so I have an extended adult period of, um, being [00:49:20] childless. So I, you know, now I can kind of see both sides of the experience.

[00:49:24] Laura: But I [00:49:25] also think related to that, uh, it's. Part of what goes on sometimes with these [00:49:30] teachers is, um, you know, we have this extended adolescence, right? 

[00:49:34] SKOT: Yeah. 

[00:49:34] Laura: [00:49:35] And a lot of times they are relating to the children more as peers than as an [00:49:40] authority adult figure. And I've seen this happen and it, so there are a lot of the boundaries [00:49:45] disappear.

[00:49:46] Laura: And so they feel like it's appropriate to discuss topics with [00:49:50] these children that I don't think they should be discussed at all. And occasionally I see this happen online. [00:49:55] People discuss, and some people will say their experience was different, but in my experience, I didn't know [00:50:00] anything about my teacher's lives, really nothing whatsoever.[00:50:05] 

[00:50:05] Laura: And now it's considered normal for the teachers to share all [00:50:10] kinds of things about their personal lives with the kids. And instead, I don't know why they can't [00:50:15] focus on the teaching, but I think that is part of what goes on here for sure. That's how they're relating to them [00:50:20] as equals instead of as authorities.

[00:50:22] Stephanie: Oh, absolutely. And I'm glad you called it out. I had [00:50:25] one teacher. Mrs. Dorn in fourth grade who used us as her [00:50:30] personal sounding board. She would sit us on the carpet and she would tell us all about caring for her disabled [00:50:35] husband. And I think that she had a bit of a martyr complex because she wanted to use us [00:50:40] little fourth graders as mirrors to make her feel better about her herself [00:50:45] for all of her sacrifice.

[00:50:46] Stephanie: But that was my one teacher. I mean, we had other [00:50:50] teachers that, you know, kids would speculate that this teacher was dating that teacher, or that this [00:50:55] one was gay, but nobody actually knew anything. And I definitely feel like that has [00:51:00] shifted in the culture big time. 

[00:51:01] Laura: Another thing, I mean, this kind of goes into broader stuff.

[00:51:03] Laura: I don't know if you've [00:51:05] looked much at this, like social emotional learning and uh, what goes on in [00:51:10] schools now, and a lot of this feels like. This sort of ad hoc group. [00:51:15] Therapy happens in classes, and it's led by teachers who really are not trained in this. [00:51:20] And, uh, you know, Abigail Schreyer book Bad Therapy, which I think is just a great [00:51:25] way, I want all parents to read that.

[00:51:26] Laura: So to lay out to, because it's hard to convince [00:51:30] parents that this is potentially damaging, but to sit down with kids and [00:51:35] ask them about their feelings on like a daily basis that's going on in elementary schools. [00:51:40] So kids are supposed to talk about feelings and what's going on in their lives, and they can end [00:51:45] up, it could end up bringing up emotions.

[00:51:47] Laura: Um, I also think there's one case I [00:51:50] personally had with my kids' friend where he, he had been [00:51:55] totally okay. He's, he's very short for his age. I talked to his mom about this a bunch because [00:52:00] I didn't want any remarks to hurt his feelings. She goes, no, we talk about it. He's strong about it. [00:52:05] First week of fifth grade, his teacher is sitting them down and they're asked [00:52:10] to tell the class what it is they would change about themselves.

[00:52:14] Laura: [00:52:15] And he said his height. And then apparently he started crying. This was not [00:52:20] told the mother. I ended up reporting this to the mother and she's like, what? What? He's, [00:52:25] I, I can't believe this. We talk about this all the time. The teacher actually also went and told my [00:52:30] son about this conversation, said he cries in class about his height, and she's telling [00:52:35] other kids it was just so.

[00:52:37] Laura: So inappropriate, but the conversation never [00:52:40] should have taken place. And I'm not convinced, you know, somebody could argue, well, maybe he was upset, [00:52:45] you know, he has his sensitivity about his height and he was trying, wasn't revealing that to his [00:52:50] mom, and he only trusted this teacher. But I also think he was prompted to come up with something to [00:52:55] be upset about.

[00:52:56] Laura: He, to ask a kid who's feeling fine to [00:53:00] ask them to come up with something they don't like about themselves. And then of course, the insanity of having them do it [00:53:05] in front of the whole class. So every bully in the class gets to know where [00:53:10] your insecurities are and which buttons to push. Um, but that's just an example I ran [00:53:15] across.

[00:53:15] Laura: This is the way teachers are pretending like they're therapists and doing these [00:53:20] group therapy sessions without any just so sloppily. [00:53:25] And if you also, I mean, if, what if the child does have. Psychological [00:53:30] issues is receiving treatment and then the parents, then the teachers come in and just [00:53:35] undermine whatever's going on at home that they may not be privy to whatever professional help the [00:53:40] child could be receiving.

[00:53:41] Laura: If a child really has psychological problems they need help [00:53:45] with, they don't need this teacher just coming in and, and bringing that [00:53:50] up in the middle of the school day over and over for them to deal with. Um, so it really is [00:53:55] the whole approach of education, not just this one gender identity issue. [00:54:00] That troubles me a lot.

[00:54:01] Stephanie: Yeah, that's a problem. Asking kids what they would change about themselves. I, I [00:54:05] mean, and, and like you pointed out, it, it's giving away information for a bully, but I [00:54:10] also think that the social landscape has changed so much that, you know, those [00:54:15] types of bullies aren't around so much anymore and that a kid could easily, I [00:54:20] easily.

[00:54:21] Stephanie: Recognize from their social environment that feeling [00:54:25] sorry for yourself and crying in front of the class is the way to get ahead with your peers. [00:54:30] And that I think we should talk about with regard to the trans issue because there is, [00:54:35] again that that secondary gain, right? What are the benefits of [00:54:40] identifying into this category?

[00:54:42] Stephanie: Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back. [00:54:45] Are you a free thinking therapist looking for like-minded community? The Association for [00:54:50] Mental Health Professionals is a sanctuary for holistic critical thinking counselors and [00:54:55] therapists who want to stand firm in our values and reclaim our profession from IDEA [00:55:00] ideologues.

[00:55:00] Stephanie: A MHP offers its members a blog and podcast, monthly [00:55:05] webinars, and an annual conference. Each fall in Texas, visit Association [00:55:10] for mental health professionals.org to join a growing number of like-minded [00:55:15] therapists who want our profession back. Alright, now back to the show. Some of these things are [00:55:20] more in my wheelhouse and, and you're here to talk about your wheelhouse.

[00:55:22] Stephanie: So I wonder if we've actually covered all the [00:55:25] important legal stuff or if there's more. 

[00:55:27] Laura: Yeah, I think, I think in terms of the legal [00:55:30] stuff, I mean, that's why this is interesting. I think you don't have to be a lawyer to follow what's going on. You just have to have [00:55:35] some sort of common sense about how what children are like and what parent-child [00:55:40] relationships are like, and, uh, what should be going on in school.

[00:55:43] Laura: It's really, you know, about the roles of [00:55:45] parents and the roles of schools and how those are different and, um, [00:55:50] where, I mean, in my opinion, the schools are just going way too far and, and moved [00:55:55] the, the little bit of area where there was overlap, they've, they've just shifted that line way too [00:56:00] far. One of the questions, you know, that I think is important to talk about that comes up though [00:56:05] is, um.

[00:56:06] Laura: What is this social transition that's going on [00:56:10] and is it a form of treatment? And so that's kind of an area of contention and it's [00:56:15] again, an area. So social transition is when [00:56:20] you start treating the person as if they're the gender they wish they were. [00:56:25] Um, I find it very strange from my point of view, not in your [00:56:30] area of expertise, but, uh, how often is the treatment for a [00:56:35] psychological issue to have everybody else in the world change what [00:56:40] they do?

[00:56:40] Laura: I. And that is what they need in order to feel good. I find [00:56:45] that very strange. I don't know that that ever occurs in any other area, but, [00:56:50] uh, this is one of these areas where proponents of the secrecy policy argue things both ways [00:56:55] because they say, well, we have to socially transition these [00:57:00] kids for their own mental wellbeing.

[00:57:01] Laura: They may commit suicide because they're so [00:57:05] distraught if we don't socially transition them. So that SurePoint to [00:57:10] me as it being some sort of a treatment. But then when the other side argues, well, of [00:57:15] course parents are entitled to know about any sort of psychological medical [00:57:20] treatment their children are undergoing.

[00:57:21] Laura: They say, oh, wait, no, it's not a treatment. [00:57:25] So it's still kind of at an impasse. This got addressed in this Mirabelli case where the [00:57:30] judge said, well, it's been, there's a ninth circuit case that says it is a form of medical treatment. [00:57:35] So I'm just gonna put that aside. I'm not sure that that fully answers the question, [00:57:40] but, um.

[00:57:41] Laura: There's, you know, some experts who were, there's um, [00:57:45] one of the experts on the plaintiff side used to be with WPATH and, [00:57:50] and, um, identifies as trans and does not buy into [00:57:55] this, you know, talks about really the real consequences of [00:58:00] social transition. That's another thing to say. It's just a name and pronoun.

[00:58:04] Laura: It's so [00:58:05] funny 'cause a one, they'll say, oh, this is so crucial that you use names and pronouns that we [00:58:10] want. And then when it comes to the other argument, well, it's just a name, it's just a pronoun, no big deal. [00:58:15] Um, I'm, you know, agnostic about whether it is a big, how big of a deal it [00:58:20] is. Uh, but I think. The argument has been made, and it's been shown to some extent [00:58:25] that, that it puts them on a path, uh, by changing their identity.

[00:58:29] Laura: It [00:58:30] puts them on a path where they may end up medicalizing later on. 

[00:58:33] Stephanie: The narrative shifts to [00:58:35] whatever suits in the moment. And this is a feature of trans. If we were to [00:58:40] describe trans as an entity, as a personality, [00:58:45] this is one of its characteristic features. It wants whatever serves it in [00:58:50] the moment. I encounter this psychologically in my coaching work with parents all [00:58:55] the time because we see kids wanna have their cake and eat it too.

[00:58:58] Stephanie: They wanna be a boy when it [00:59:00] serves them in a certain context. A girl, when it serves them in a different context, they wanna be a child when it serves [00:59:05] them, an adult, when it serves them. It's natural of adolescents to want what they want, but it's [00:59:10] natural for the rest of us to push back. And so that [00:59:15] narrative, just like you were saying, it changes based on the circumstances, but [00:59:20] here's the problem.

[00:59:21] Stephanie: When they treat social transition [00:59:25] like a standalone intervention, when really it's not, it's part of a pathway that leads to [00:59:30] medicalization, whether it leads in a matter of weeks, [00:59:35] months, or years. That can be highly variable. And I think that's one of the reasons [00:59:40] that it's being pushed at earlier ages in the schools because the earlier an age they push it at, [00:59:45] the more they can separate out in time the social aspect of the transition from the [00:59:50] eventual medical consequences.

[00:59:52] Stephanie: This is another thing that makes me so [00:59:55] frustrated about gender affirming therapists because part of my work in parent [01:00:00] coaching is sometimes reviewing with the parent the actions that their child's therapist has [01:00:05] taken with them. And sometimes in that role I find myself quite [01:00:10] angry. And so an example of how this often shows up with gender affirming therapists is the [01:00:15] therapist will.

[01:00:16] Stephanie: Sort of half pretend to hear the [01:00:20] parents' concerns, but they'll say things like, oh, don't worry, we're not talking about [01:00:25] medicalization now. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Right now we're just talking, we're just exploring gender [01:00:30] identity. And the therapists love to explain it as if what they're doing is just perfectly [01:00:35] neutral.

[01:00:35] Stephanie: As if, you know, they, they could only do good and [01:00:40] never any harm as if there's no consequences. Right? Oh no, I'm just exploring. I'm not [01:00:45] affirming and I'm not converting. I'm just [01:00:50] exploring, you know, I'm just following the child's lead and [01:00:55] I feel so much rage on behalf of the parents who bring [01:01:00] this sort of stuff to me that their kid's therapist has said to them because.[01:01:05] 

[01:01:05] Stephanie: It's not neutral. Like I said earlier, in adolescence, your kids' [01:01:10] tendency to idealize shifts from you as an authority figure to other adults that they [01:01:15] can look up to as well as influencers, peers, and things like that. [01:01:20] So the weight of the authority of the therapist here is significant, [01:01:25] just like the weight of the authority of the teachers is significant.

[01:01:29] Stephanie: And [01:01:30] you know, here's someone sort of rubber stamping identity by treating it as if it's [01:01:35] a valid thing to explore. Where one possible valid conclusion, [01:01:40] they might reach through that exploration as I am trans, or I am the [01:01:45] opposite sex, or I am this other thing. And then what's downstream of that, of course, is medicalization.

[01:01:49] Stephanie: So [01:01:50] the therapists who haven't grappled with their own capacity for harm, their [01:01:55] capacity to be a monster. The therapists who haven't grappled with that, who are, in [01:02:00] my opinion, just attached to seeing themselves as all good. [01:02:05] Um, they separate this out in time and space as well. [01:02:10] It's as if, because the work we're doing today in therapy [01:02:15] by exploring how so and so feels about their gender, because that doesn't immediately [01:02:20] lead to medicalization that those things are disconnected.

[01:02:24] Stephanie: But [01:02:25] social transition leads to medical transition. And [01:02:30] since I just said that people are gonna want an explanation, I'm gonna get on my soapbox and give the brief [01:02:35] explanation of how that works. It's, it's in your brain, right? If you are repeatedly [01:02:40] reinforcing and trusted people in your life are [01:02:45] reinforcing the belief that you must be seen and treated a certain way in order to be [01:02:50] yourself, in order to be okay, in order to be happy, in order to [01:02:55] do what you wanna do in life, in order to whatever positive outcome.

[01:02:58] Stephanie: If that is a belief, you keep [01:03:00] reinforcing and trusted people in your life, reinforce it. And then you engage in behaviors [01:03:05] to reinforce that belief as well. Behaviors like binding name change, you know, whatever the [01:03:10] behavior might be. Then you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. [01:03:15] Neurologically you are training your brain during a really plastic window in your brain [01:03:20] development to feel that way.

[01:03:22] Stephanie: To feel I cannot be okay unless this happens. [01:03:25] Right? So then of course it's gonna lead to medicalization as puberty [01:03:30] continues, as your sex becomes more and more obvious to other people. 'cause you're gonna be [01:03:35] continuously, as they say, quote, misgendered, right? So of course you [01:03:40] are going to want to medicalize if you are socially affirmed.

[01:03:43] Stephanie: That's how it [01:03:45] works. And I'm so angry at the people who try to, you know, [01:03:50] issue any responsibility for their hand in this as if social and medical transition are two [01:03:55] completely unrelated things. 'cause they're absolutely not. 

[01:03:57] Laura: Yeah. There was something you said. [01:04:00] I forget what, what's the term you use for, um, the sort of benefits that people see?

[01:04:04] Laura: [01:04:05] Um, 

[01:04:05] Stephanie: secondary gain. 

[01:04:07] Laura: Yeah, so I don't know if this fits in that [01:04:10] definition, but one of the things I feel like I suspect goes on here is that there's control. The [01:04:15] kids get so much control over the adults all of a sudden, and if you look at some [01:04:20] of the documents related to the Mirabelli case, there are these emails they get passed [01:04:25] around.

[01:04:25] Laura: The kids can change the pronouns and names and they get to say which, what each [01:04:30] person has to say to each other person. They're able to control everything that's going [01:04:35] on. For a kid to have that level of control in their lives is pretty unusual, and I think [01:04:40] that seems to me to be on some level has to be part of the appeal [01:04:45] of doing, of, of identifying a certain way.

[01:04:47] Stephanie: Laura, I call that the toddler at the steering wheel. [01:04:50] When a kid has too much control, think about a toddler's gonna try to grab the [01:04:55] steering wheel because it, they, they're, they're looking for their power. And [01:05:00] teenagers are also looking for their power. What can I take control of? But once that toddler actually [01:05:05] has a hold of the steering wheel, watch out that, that toddler's experience internally is that they're [01:05:10] terrified because they know, they do not know how to steer the [01:05:15] car and that they might be crashing.

[01:05:17] Stephanie: Right, but, but that terror of [01:05:20] I shouldn't be in charge of this, I shouldn't have this much power. I don't know what to do with this much power. I'm not gonna use it responsibly. [01:05:25] That fear is in conflict with the ego. That's like power. Yeah. I, I need that. [01:05:30] Right. So I think those parts of the self are in conflict in a teenager as well, 

[01:05:34] Laura: [01:05:35] which is exactly why parents' rights are children's rights that the child does not [01:05:40] want.

[01:05:40] Laura: It's not freeing the child to give them so much power. It's [01:05:45] terrifying for them. So that's why it's always been the parents are supposed to guide them. They're [01:05:50] supposed to only have autonomy within a certain framework and going to a small child and [01:05:55] telling them, they have to figure they can be any gender they want, and they have to figure out which one they are.

[01:05:59] Laura: That must be [01:06:00] terrifying. And that is not giving children autonomy. Makes them vulnerable, makes them [01:06:05] scared. It's not children's rights to take that approach. Um, there [01:06:10] is one more legal thing I, I forgot. I just wanted to, to mention, um, I mentioned [01:06:15] before ferpa, which, which is a federal law that, uh, about [01:06:20] children's privacy.

[01:06:20] Laura: So one of the things that has inevitably has to go on here to hide [01:06:25] these gender transitions from parents, they have to hide. There's always gonna be [01:06:30] some sort of document trail. And in fact, they use these gender support plans. Uh. [01:06:35] Most of them, at least in California, are based on this, uh, nonprofit that created them.

[01:06:39] Laura: [01:06:40] And it provide all this information about who's allowed to know and blah, blah, blah. And [01:06:45] some of them are explicit that, well, you can't put this in the file because it [01:06:50] parent will see it if the child doesn't. If the parent doesn't know and the child doesn't want the parent to know. [01:06:55] So, and there's other ways that they're hiding information in the system.

[01:06:58] Laura: It's hard to discover all of it [01:07:00] because, um, it's hidden, you know. But there has been an investigation by the state, [01:07:05] uh, the US Department of Education into California's practices, and they have [01:07:10] recently, late January, found that these policies do violate federal [01:07:15] law and potentially they can withhold all federal funding from [01:07:20] California schools.

[01:07:20] Laura: I don't know that they're gonna take that drastic step, but, um, that's [01:07:25] another legal issue in terms of, uh, hiding these [01:07:30] things in the records, which again. The law gives no children no [01:07:35] rights. If they're under 18 with respect to their records, all the rights are held by the [01:07:40] parents because we've always understood that's the parent's role.

[01:07:42] Laura: The kid can't advocate for themselves. [01:07:45] So if they're hiding anything in writing, and they also do this on the, um, [01:07:50] uh, online databases, of course now, like there's so much information is stored in [01:07:55] these databases, these companies make. And there was one school board meeting in [01:08:00] California where somebody raised the issue of, oh, or should children be worried that [01:08:05] their information's gonna be revealed to their parents if it's in the database, if they have a transition.

[01:08:09] Laura: And [01:08:10] uh, someone from the district said, don't worry, we have a workaround. And I [01:08:15] discovered online conversations on a forum of school under their real [01:08:20] names, people who worked for schools saying, how do we comply with what they thought was state law to [01:08:25] hide? Information about a child's name from a parent because the parent can access the system.

[01:08:29] Laura: So [01:08:30] they are trying to, they find workarounds in these systems to hide information, and they're [01:08:35] asking the companies openly, could you create a thing so we can hide information without [01:08:40] even, it's, it's shocking to me that they don't recognize that this violates the [01:08:45] law that they're, they're supposed to implement, which they should have some basic training on.

[01:08:49] Laura: So [01:08:50] that's another sort of legal issue that's, that's taking place. At the same [01:08:55] time, 

[01:08:55] Stephanie: I vaguely recall when the Trump administration. [01:09:00] Enacted that policy you just described where they, they have the right to revoke [01:09:05] funding from schools that support secret gender transitions. And thank you for reminding me [01:09:10] of that, because I lost track of where that led.

[01:09:13] Stephanie: I think at the time I [01:09:15] was like, wow, this is good news, but how will it play out? I mean, it sounds like [01:09:20] it's not, um, being widely enforced. 

[01:09:23] Laura: Well, there's a whole [01:09:25] enforcement issue here, um, for all of this. Um, we'll see how this plays out right [01:09:30] now. The state sued the Department of Education to try to prevent [01:09:35] them from cutting off funding due to the FERPA violation.

[01:09:38] Laura: But even on this whole. [01:09:40] Mirabelli case, I am not [01:09:45] optimistic that it will be followed. And I, you know, I see stuff online where people who say, their [01:09:50] teachers say, under no circumstances, well, I reveal this information if I know it about a child. And [01:09:55] from the higher levels, they are trying to act as if there's some confusion about [01:10:00] what these cases say.

[01:10:01] Laura: Did the Supreme Court really say this? And we don't really know what to do. So [01:10:05] I think we're not, I'm, I'm worried that we're not gonna see a big change in how [01:10:10] things are operating in schools. And they will continue mostly with the status quo. And for the [01:10:15] most part, it's hard to find out. Obviously this is not, does not affect most children.

[01:10:19] Laura: And if you're one of [01:10:20] the parents affected, you may not find out for a while. And then maybe they're, you know, [01:10:25] willing to take the occasional lawsuit from a parent who finds out their child was socially transitioned [01:10:30] and not optimistic because they have been dragging their feet. Uh, the state actually went to the [01:10:35] Knight Circuit Court of Appeals after the Supreme Court.

[01:10:38] Laura: In no uncertain [01:10:40] terms, parents have rights to this information. And uh, they tried to say, [01:10:45] well, the order wasn't quite right. It didn't quite reflect their reasoning. They're trying to get the court of appeals to [01:10:50] second guess the Supreme Court's order, which they [01:10:55] declined to do, but the fact that they're trying to find some way to get around it [01:11:00] is concerning courts move slub.

[01:11:03] Laura: And so [01:11:05] this eventually, I've been optimistic because we've discussed so many ways that the, the [01:11:10] reasoning just collapses as soon as you examine it. And courts are good at examining [01:11:15] those unless the judge is entirely ideologically captured. The logic is gonna [01:11:20] break down really quickly. So I've been pretty confident.

[01:11:22] Laura: Once we get through the courts, [01:11:25] we're gonna come out on the side of sanity in this. But it takes a long [01:11:30] time. But we're already, I mean, that's why it's so exciting to have this early opinion, because [01:11:35] normally, and I think that's probably why they put out the opinion in a emergency docket [01:11:40] instead of where would normally just be a procedural issue because they know that right now there's kids who [01:11:45] are in this situation and they needed to make this statement because, and it's not just California, as we've [01:11:50] said, it's happening all over the country.

[01:11:51] Laura: And they said, well no, this is not gonna be tolerated and we're gonna, [01:11:55] they'll probably take a case that addresses this more head on and strike it down. 

[01:11:59] Stephanie: So [01:12:00] enforcement is an issue. And as you've pointed out, there are people working within the school [01:12:05] system who have their own ideology. So a lot of teachers [01:12:10] feel very passionate about this.

[01:12:11] Stephanie: They feel like they might have an opportunity to be a righteous martyr and [01:12:15] sacrifice their career even if, even if the. Politics moves in a conservative direction on [01:12:20] this issue. Uh, they feel very strongly that they're on the right side of history. [01:12:25] Again, you know, as I've said many times on this podcast, the road of road to hell is paved with the [01:12:30] very best of intentions.

[01:12:30] Stephanie: And so those teachers are probably gonna keep doing what they're [01:12:35] doing, even if it's not looked on favorably in the legal [01:12:40] system, especially in places like California. Um, and then there are gonna be the [01:12:45] teachers on the other side of the issue, which I think are outnumbered because the profession, especially [01:12:50] the way that the.

[01:12:51] Stephanie: The way things are now, the profession leans [01:12:55] progressive, but there are the teachers you mentioned like the the [01:13:00] plaintiffs in Mirabelli versus Olsen where this all began. I think you said who, who [01:13:05] are Christian and objected this on free speech, on religious grounds saying they, they did not feel [01:13:10] right. Um, keeping secrets from the kids' parents.

[01:13:12] Stephanie: But it's, it's, it's disappointing, right? When [01:13:15] you go to all this trouble go through these legal processes, they take years, they cost millions of [01:13:20] dollars. I interview people like you on my podcast who have very different expertise than my own. [01:13:25] And you know, thankfully I've had people like Glenna Goldis and El Beth Cipher on this podcast as well.

[01:13:29] Stephanie: But then [01:13:30] at the end of the day, enforcement is still an issue and there's still an issue in the [01:13:35] workplace culture and how things are structured. So. What [01:13:40] can parents do? Let's talk about parents in California who might be [01:13:45] listening to this. What would you advise them their rights are and, and what is, [01:13:50] what does the future look like for them and what can they do?

[01:13:53] Laura: Well, one that just reminded [01:13:55] me, there's one other unresolved question here [01:14:00] that, um, whether there is a right to be notified, right? There's [01:14:05] one thing to say, you can't keep this secret, but does that mean you have to proactively call [01:14:10] the parents and let them know if the child's changing their gender identity at school and [01:14:15] people on the other side are saying, no, absolutely not.

[01:14:18] Laura: The way I'm reading [01:14:20] the, you have these statements from the court saying, parents have a right to know. [01:14:25] I don't see how they could have a right to know, and that school officials, if they know, [01:14:30] don't have some obligation to tell them, but they haven't quite been explicit about that. I think the [01:14:35] district court mostly crafted his injunction.

[01:14:38] Laura: Around saying [01:14:40] that they can't participate in the gender transition. I think that's kind of how he was [01:14:45] thinking of it, that school officials can't participate in a gender transition without the parents' knowledge and consent. [01:14:50] But whether that means they have to call you up if there's a change is a little [01:14:55] unresolved.

[01:14:55] Laura: Um, so, but it would be kind of crazy in practice, right? [01:15:00] So does a parent need to say to the school, I want to [01:15:05] know if my Jo child is showing signs of gender confusion. [01:15:10] Do they have to call up like every week say, because if there's no [01:15:15] obligation to notify, wouldn't that mean every week has there been any change?

[01:15:18] Laura: Every parent has [01:15:20] to, has to contact the school in a firm, uh, proactively make that [01:15:25] request. And it's obviously an unreasonable burden if we're talking about this being a parent's constitutional right to know. [01:15:30] You know, I live in a place where the large percentage of the families are [01:15:35] immigrants. The idea that they would even know about this issue know that they had to take some action to [01:15:40] find out that this was going on is unreasonable in my book.

[01:15:44] Laura: But [01:15:45] yes, I mean, that's what you kind of have to do is ask and put the schools on notice. I [01:15:50] had not been personally, I have two kids in public schools and I'm not personally concerned about [01:15:55] this issue with them, but some of the other things that go on in schools and the rights [01:16:00] under the Mahmud v Taylor case, and I've said, if you are going to present any [01:16:05] materials that are designed specifically to normalize, uh, being [01:16:10] L-G-B-T-Q, you know, not just an incidental thing, I said, I wanna review those materials.[01:16:15] 

[01:16:15] Laura: And I've gotten tremendous pushback. I'm told that before I can, [01:16:20] I have to review every material that they may possibly use, [01:16:25] and I have to determine which ones I may object to. They can't just [01:16:30] inform me. They're putting just unreasonable burdens. But I think in terms of [01:16:35] advice to parents, I think you should put them on notice, um, that you are paying [01:16:40] attention.

[01:16:40] Laura: But the main thing too is, uh, paying attention to your kids. You know, [01:16:45] that's another thing is that I feel lucky in a way because I feel like there was a generation [01:16:50] where these things were going on in schools, but it wasn't quite in the public. Awareness [01:16:55] yet. And because my kids are still young enough, I know I have to, I don't want to talk [01:17:00] to them about all these different issues, but I have to inform them about what these things mean.

[01:17:04] Laura: So they [01:17:05] know when they encounter something in schools, they will come home and tell me, you know, and I [01:17:10] feel like I have these little spies. They come home and tell me like, I don't think this was appropriate. Um, this [01:17:15] seems strange to me. And sometimes it's not a big deal. I'll be like, okay, they just mentioned a gay [01:17:20] person.

[01:17:20] Laura: That's not a big deal. They're allowed to, but there's other things where that is not, that is [01:17:25] odd, it's not acceptable. Um, it was, you know, clearly trying to [01:17:30] normalize, um, certain ideologies. So I think that's the main thing, is making sure that your [01:17:35] kids know your values, know what to look out for, that you have an open line of [01:17:40] communication.

[01:17:40] Laura: You know, we try to have dinner every night, which is hard, but uh, so that's a time where they [01:17:45] can say, oh, by the way, the teacher said something weird in class today. And it is kind of funny. I mean, [01:17:50] it's like, oh boy. 'cause they know I'm gonna. Write a letter [01:17:55] and every time, and I feel, I feel like it's just a matter of time before I'm suing the district, but you know, that's me.

[01:17:59] Laura: That's what [01:18:00] I'm like. But I think it, you should speak up when you find something wrong. Even if you're not a [01:18:05] lawyer and you don't know how to articulate it. Um, you know, make sure that your [01:18:10] school's hear from you and make sure you're hearing from your kids, 

[01:18:13] Stephanie: practically [01:18:15] speaking. Um, I think that combination [01:18:20] of two, essentially two pieces of advice works well when you're in a [01:18:25] preventative and strong position like yours, Laura, right?

[01:18:27] Stephanie: Where your kids have that open [01:18:30] trusting relationship with you, they understand the reasoning for [01:18:35] your values and concerns, and so you can keep that open dialogue with them. [01:18:40] And therefore, I think you are in a strong position to kind of go [01:18:45] on offense with the school. Let them know that they're being watched and let you know what your rights are.

[01:18:49] Stephanie: [01:18:50] Um, I do wanna say for the parents in the audience who are already dealing [01:18:55] with a kid that's gotten sucked into the cult, that, uh, I do not give that same advice. And [01:19:00] this is where some people misunderstand me. Uh, but it's because I'm not a lawyer [01:19:05] because my strength is in psychology that I, what I, [01:19:10] what I don't want anyone doing is putting a target on their back.

[01:19:13] Stephanie: So [01:19:15] if you're prepared to fight this to the nth degree and you're confident that that's an approach that [01:19:20] will work for your child, then by all means do it. But for the parents in the [01:19:25] audience, um, who, you know, whose kid is already starting to push you [01:19:30] away over this issue, hide things from you. In that event, [01:19:35] um, if you, you know, especially in a progressive place like California, [01:19:40] sort of out yourself to school administrators, as someone who is conservative on this [01:19:45] issue, uh, what you could be doing is attracting the wrong kind of attention for your [01:19:50] kid because these.

[01:19:52] Stephanie: People with their martyr complexes [01:19:55] who, uh, believe that they are on the right side of history, who think that they are [01:20:00] rescuing your poor, oppressed trans child from you, terrible bigoted [01:20:05] parents. They're going to take a really special interest in your child when you let [01:20:10] them know exactly where you stand on this issue.

[01:20:11] Stephanie: So that's where I just advise people to be careful. You know, [01:20:15] unless you have someone like Laura Powell in your corner, um, [01:20:20] and you know, potentially the money and the strength to fight this all the way, [01:20:25] uh, if the gender issue is already infiltrated your family, then you have to be a lot [01:20:30] more thoughtful, a lot more strategic about which cards you play, what you reveal to [01:20:35] other people.

[01:20:35] Stephanie: Because again, there are some people who. Bless their [01:20:40] hearts. They believe that they have the best of intentions, but they will take a [01:20:45] special interest in your child. And you don't necessarily want them knowing [01:20:50] where you stand from a strategic perspective. 

[01:20:53] Laura: Yeah, I would, [01:20:55] I would agree with that. Like I said, I have not had this issue myself.

[01:20:58] Laura: Um, there are [01:21:00] people who've worked with the parents, help them, advocates who help them. Like Erin Friday is [01:21:05] someone I know who had, she's a lawyer and had, uh, a child [01:21:10] secretly transitioned at school and has become a ferocious advocate. And she's talked to so many parents going through this. [01:21:15] You know, that's somebody I would refer a parent to somebody like her to get advice if you're already in the thick of [01:21:20] it.

[01:21:20] Laura: For sure. I mean, and I also, yes, there is the thing. You feel like there's, you're putting a target on [01:21:25] your back. I'm already, you know, somebody who's outspoken publicly. But, um, yeah, when I wrote a [01:21:30] letter just saying I would like to review materials to see if we have an issue with them, um, [01:21:35] the response from the principal in part said.

[01:21:39] Laura: Well, [01:21:40] I want to remind you that we have an anti-discrimination policy in this district, [01:21:45] as if me opting my child out of a [01:21:50] lesson that's designed to normalize being trans, makes him [01:21:55] some kind of bully, and were a bunch of bigots. And I mean, that's basically the fact that she [01:22:00] referred to that was basically saying she considers me a bigot [01:22:05] because I said, I want to exercise my constitutional rights [01:22:10] to be informed of what my child's learning on a contentious ideological [01:22:15] issue.

[01:22:15] Stephanie: Well, there it is, folks. Laura just gave a perfect example of [01:22:20] what it looks like, right? And thankfully, like you say, you already have these dialogues with your kids. You [01:22:25] don't need to worry that that person who just labeled you a discriminator. [01:22:30] Um, is going to take a special interest in your child now that they [01:22:35] know what terrible parents your kid has.

[01:22:37] Stephanie: Um, but [01:22:40] again, for listeners, if this issue is in your family, you don't want that same sort of thing to [01:22:45] happen to you. 

[01:22:45] Laura: And you know, it probably depends on your kids too. Yeah. I have boys [01:22:50] and, uh, they're pretty, especially the older one is [01:22:55] so outspoken, I feel like in a way that they're gonna back down because they're worried that he [01:23:00] could be too much of kind of a leader and sort of, you know, and some of the issues going on, they don't really want, [01:23:05] uh, I don't think they think they can get him.

[01:23:07] Laura: Right. Isn't this the thing that the kids who end up [01:23:10] becoming victim to this ideology are often in a vulnerable place to begin with? [01:23:15] And, you know Right. It's often associated with autism and a bunch of other situations where they [01:23:20] may not be able to. Articulate as well, what's going on. My kids are able to [01:23:25] understand what's going on and come home and tell me about it.

[01:23:28] Laura: And you know, not every kid is that [01:23:30] good at communicating and, um, you know, whatever. It depends on your kid, whether [01:23:35] my approach with my family is gonna work for you. 

[01:23:37] Stephanie: Well, Laura, what else [01:23:40] should we know while we have your expertise here on the podcast about the legal status of [01:23:45] parents' rights, any final words of wisdom?

[01:23:48] Laura: Well, I said before, I'm, [01:23:50] I'm optimistic in the long run, it's just slow, but I think there's gonna be a lot [01:23:55] of res situating in terms of parents' rights going back to [01:24:00] where they are central and the schools are not able to take over. Um, [01:24:05] so I think we're gonna get there. I think we'll see the Supreme Court take up.

[01:24:09] Laura: [01:24:10] Another case, it was kind of hinted that they might take this case. Actually the dissent seemed to be [01:24:15] criticizing them for not taking this case called, uh, foot V Ludlow. And I am blanking on which [01:24:20] state that's from, but I think it's the Midwest somewhere. So guess, as I said, it's happening everywhere. [01:24:25] But that case is pending.

[01:24:26] Laura: Um, that is a parent's rights case. I think we're gonna keep seeing [01:24:30] that. So I think the Supreme Court wants to make more definitive statements about parents' rights. So I am [01:24:35] optimistic about the legal landscape in the long run. 

[01:24:38] Stephanie: That's good to hear. [01:24:40] And, uh, you started Californians for good governance. Can you tell us what that's [01:24:45] about?

[01:24:45] Laura: Well, part of it was I'm a lifelong liberal, like pretty far left was [01:24:50] Democrat. And um, coming out of the COVID years, it kind of is when I started to [01:24:55] feel like they had really lost their minds. And I was trying to fill that gap a little bit of [01:25:00] the organizations that had traditional liberal values, like free speech.

[01:25:04] Laura: And, [01:25:05] uh, one of the main issues that got me started there was our state of emergency at the time that had gone on for [01:25:10] years and years and years and allowed the governor to, to. [01:25:15] Put policies out, unelected public health officials could just create policies without [01:25:20] any sort of process that's supposed to go through that.

[01:25:22] Laura: And policies that have major effects on people's lives. [01:25:25] And somehow everybody who used to be considered themselves [01:25:30] liberal had sort of abandoned these basic principles of democracy, of, of, [01:25:35] I mean, it's a long understood thing. Long-term states of emergency are dangerous to [01:25:40] democracy. So in California, you know, with our government, that's, uh, one [01:25:45] party state and really they in my book have just really [01:25:50] abandoned all these principles that I thought were principles of the Democratic Party [01:25:55] that I grew up with.

[01:25:55] Laura: Um, so, you know, trying to get things back to a [01:26:00] place where we have some sort of functioning democracy, where we have some respect for [01:26:05] basic rights, um, just. Really [01:26:10] in California, there's so much work to be done, and I'm sure you know anybody in Oregon, wherever you [01:26:15] are, if you're in a blue state, you can relate to that.

[01:26:17] Laura: That really, they've just gone off the deep [01:26:20] end. You know, I was a lifelong leftist, but this is just so far [01:26:25] cutting parents out of their children's life is just so far off. Um. [01:26:30] The deep end of what was considered a normal opinion to have when I was [01:26:35] younger, and I'd like to see us get back to a little bit of sanity.

[01:26:38] Stephanie: Well, thank you for everything that you're doing. [01:26:40] Laura, where could people find you? 

[01:26:41] Laura: Mostly on Twitter at loelle, esquire? I, I [01:26:45] don't have time for multiple platforms much, but I, I put a lot of stuff out there and [01:26:50] about all kinds of issues. I mean, this is one issue that has my interest. I try to focus on California, but not [01:26:55] exclusively.

[01:26:55] Stephanie: That's great. Well, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your expertise. It's been a pleasure. 

[01:26:59] Laura: [01:27:00] Thank you. Stephanie. 

[01:27:02] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some [01:27:05] kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to [01:27:10] rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice.[01:27:15] 

[01:27:15] Stephanie: And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your [01:27:20] therapist. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, [01:27:25] half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. For help [01:27:30] navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for [01:27:35] parents, ROGD, repair.

[01:27:39] Stephanie: Any [01:27:40] resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and [01:27:45] links below Rain or shine. I hope you will step outside [01:27:50] to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman. With all its [01:27:55] sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:28:00] [01:28:05] [01:28:10] [01:28:15] [01:28:20] [01:28:25] [01:28:30] [01:28:35] world.