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Hi, welcome to Sober Banter, and I'm Colin.

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And I'm Rachel.

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And our guest today is Brian.

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Doctor Brian.

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No, yes, Doctor Brian.

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It's Laquan.

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Laquan, yes.

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We are excited because actually you'll be our first guest that,

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you know,

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is not in recovery,

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but you specialize in recovery.

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I mean, you are, I mean, I would say an expert as a psychologist with a PhD in psychology.

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And more importantly, kind of, I saw a lot of your background.

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Not only have you wrote, written a book about kind of talking about loved ones into

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treatment center or into recovery,

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kind of going that path,

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but also with,

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I think I saw a lot of insomnia training as well,

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which is very interesting.

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So maybe tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Yes, I'm a California licensed psychologist and you're correct.

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And, uh, um,

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I worked in treatment recovery for almost 15 years.

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I've been in clinical practice combined with training and licensure for almost 20 years.

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And absolutely correct.

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I also had a specialization in insomnia,

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which goes hand-in-hand definitely for people in recovery.

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It's usually a significant predictor for substance relapse.

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It is.

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Yes, it is.

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In some research, usually people who...

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are going to relapse on a substance after a period of sobriety or recovery usually

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aren't well-rested,

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you know,

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typically speaking.

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So at least it's one potential predictor for someone kind of lighting up the

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perfect storm for a potential relapse.

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Not a sure shot indicator, but it's definitely a... No, like your risk level.

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Yeah,

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your heightened risk level because without...

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Because stress levels and anxiety increase or depression or trauma,

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then you're probably not sleeping well as well,

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so...

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Yeah,

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and then I like to go and give talks,

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a lot of media coverage,

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which as a speaker as well.

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So through the National Alliance on Mental Illness for almost 15 years as well,

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been providing help to family members who have loved ones struggling with substance

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abuse or mental health and don't want help.

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And more recently PALS, which stands for Parents of Addicted Loved Ones.

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And so I provide knowledge forums and write articles

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for them as well.

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So just really enjoy getting out there and spreading mental health awareness.

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One of the things that I did also see that stood out in your book,

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which is really nice is a lot of the reviews that it was like a really easy read.

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It didn't feel like overly.

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Cause it, I know for me, um, having two parents in one sober, one, not it, it's very emotional.

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And to know that something's an easy read is very comforting because it can almost

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provoke anxiety.

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Just.

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that on the other side as the person who's sober wanting to get the other person

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because you never know how they're going to react.

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So knowing that your book is labeled as very well,

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it's easy to read,

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you know,

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it's not it's going to teach you different leverages and you know how to kind of go

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into that accepting mode,

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which is again,

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it's the mental health of the other side to not just the addict,

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but the loved one helping them.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And if I may share where the book sort of came from,

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it was because people that it's a very common question,

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like,

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you know,

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you know,

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where the impetus to write the book or,

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you know,

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what was the driving force behind that and where it was with all those different things.

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Venues where I would speak,

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whether it be in treatment centers,

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helping family members,

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helping people navigate through their early recovery or sobriety and through the

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support groups that I had provided or even talks that I give,

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whether it be a church or a company business.

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And a lot of the questions during the Q&A portion of it was that they were out of solutions.

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They didn't really they felt very helpless.

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And a lot of these questions were very, very consistent in terms of the topics or the content.

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And as well as my interventions and recommendations were all so very consistent and thematic.

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And so I decided that putting this in some consolidated form,

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in a form of a book or a self-guide,

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would really help people out there fill what I believe is a void.

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And I always talk about this because,

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you know,

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in my field,

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substance recovery,

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mental health have been around for decades.

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And I truly thought that there was something out there already, right?

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And then when I find,

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when I'm asking individual clients and family members or people in support groups

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or people of different

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recovery groups.

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I said,

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is there anything like that,

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like a manual that provides a step-by-step process to get their loved one to a

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point of maybe accepting,

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increase the probability of accepting help?

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But they said,

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no,

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we have maybe a book on setting healthy boundaries,

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a book on self-care,

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a book on

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and such and forth regarding that, but nothing comprehensive.

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And so that's where I started to write the book.

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And I also sort of to your comment was I wanted a timeless,

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easy to read manual where someone as young as 12 years old can read and comprehend it.

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And so you're not going to find a lot of medical terminologies.

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You're not going to find a lot of research dates.

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And because I want it to be a timeless manual because depression 30 years ago will

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look like depression 30 years from now.

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You know,

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and so will substance addiction,

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so will anxiety,

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trauma,

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the treatment approaches,

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maybe the medications may change,

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but the entity,

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the disease itself will pretty much be the same.

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And so that's kind of where that came from.

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But another unique way that you kind of go about the perspective is in an exercise form,

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the Brazilian jujitsu.

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and how that's incorporated into um because you know our whole podcast was built

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off of we couldn't find comedy recovery and we love comedy and there is a sense of

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a almost dark humor in some of the links we went to and how it sounded so okay in

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the moment and then you get sober and you're like

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How did I think that that was normal?

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Um, but you don't know till you're out of it.

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Um,

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so I think exercising is just,

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uh,

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equally as a different path as a way to like,

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enjoy the recovery.

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Actually my whole family, my wife and my daughter and my son and myself.

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are all trained and my son and I actually compete in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

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And so there are so many metaphors,

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especially with any sports or anything that we do that's pretty arduous and tough.

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But there's a lot of metaphors that I use in my clinical practice.

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and that guide it in terms of what happens on that mat.

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And the mats are a place designed to showcase not only your strengths,

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but to highlight a lot of your deficiencies and weaknesses.

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And how do you navigate through those?

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And will you navigate through those by thinking of solutions and starting to get

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comfortable in those really,

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really uneasy places.

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And that is one of the most critical approaches for dealing with

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conditions that involve anxiety or even phobias is you get comfortable to a level

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of being exposed to those entities that are causing a great deal of distress.

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And so,

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yeah,

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I think there's just metaphors are,

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you know,

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like I said,

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it just challenges you in every way.

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And then back to your point,

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exercise or movement,

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you know,

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I believe there's five critical areas in a person's life and physical,

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mental,

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Social career and spiritual are what I believe the five areas of life that we have

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to assign 20 percent importance to.

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And the physical part is critical is because there's so much interlinked with what

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we do with our bodies,

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what we put into our bodies,

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how we treat our bodies.

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And so exercise is one of those avenues to help facilitate healthier living.

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Well,

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I was going to say,

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as you were saying of the physical activity part of it,

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I know that's really when I started to kind of get back into my tennis roots again.

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Yeah.

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was when we became sober,

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it was like,

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what is something that I can do that I associate with being sober?

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Because I played tennis all my life and childhood.

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And that's kind of like one area of my life where it wasn't triggered with drugs or alcohol.

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And so I can kind of tap into that childhood fun or excitement again.

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And

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that's really what helped me and getting back into doing a lot of that because I

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never really associated that with drinking.

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So it was like, what's an old, you know, hobby that I can do again and relate to.

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And that really helped me just kind of get endorphins going in a, you know, a good, healthy way.

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It's it's kind of known within at least like recovery communities.

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January is a heavier month of people in meetings because it's, you know, new year, new me.

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And and that's great.

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Like it does work.

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January is the biggest birthday month of all the months.

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But my question would be.

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about i know for me i've been like it's january 1st i'm in and like maybe i'm like

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okay i'm gonna finally kind of get help but then january 2nd rolls around and i've

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changed my mind and kind of this is probably where your book would be a great

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resource to kind of come right in at where maybe someone's in accepting and then

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they change their mind because i have to assume that happens quite often

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Yeah, that's actually a very good point.

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I actually did a...

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I mentioned that in one of my media coverages,

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the difference between resolutions,

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New Year's resolutions,

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for example,

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and goal settings.

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And just to let you know,

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in my therapy a lot,

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these last four months of the year,

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I start preparing my clients probably around September-ish or so,

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or even October's because...

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There's just an assumption that this last quarter of the year means something very

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widely accepted,

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which is celebration and fun and happiness and joyfulness,

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jubilation,

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family unification,

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indulgence.

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However, one thing I like to give clients permission that it's a big struggle.

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A lot of people, the holidays mean something very different.

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Some people may have lost a loved one.

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Someone may have

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had a traumatic event happen, and some of people's worst use came during the holidays.

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And so what I like to do with people instead of a New Year's resolution is that's

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exactly what happens.

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You want to quit smoking a pack of cigarettes a day,

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but what's going to happen is I'm going to smoke like two packs a day for the month

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of December and start clean in January,

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or I'm going to quit alcohol,

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get completely dry and sober January 1st,

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but I'm going to have a bender the last two weeks of December.

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And

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New Year's Eve and you create this bad habit, essentially.

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And then when you come January 1st,

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It's like this steep hill.

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And then when you have a lapse or relapse, then it starts to cycle all over again.

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You feel helpless and hopeless.

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And what's the purpose?

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And the cycle starts all over again.

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I rather have people,

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for example,

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if they want to stop smoking cigarettes,

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come November,

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you're going down to maybe two less cigarettes a day to maybe come December 31st,

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you're down to three cigarettes a day.

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Come January 1st, I'm going to cut down to one cigarette a day and so forth.

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So it's momentum rather than this brand new beginning.

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It's momentum that I've already created.

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And it's just January 1st will be just momentum.

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For example, for someone in meetings, man, I've been psyching on meetings.

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I've been going to meetings four days a week.

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I'm going to do five days a week this time, right?

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And so that's what I like to do.

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And you see a lot more success when people are just building on momentum that

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they've already created.

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You know, that's a good point because, yeah, I never thought of it like that.

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But I do know anytime we were preparing to quit anything that night or two before

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it was go all out because it's like we're going to go out with a bang before we

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give up anything.

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And,

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yeah,

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it's just going to make it harder to quit when it comes time to make that actual

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jump because you just spent the last 48 hours getting used to,

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you know,

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going hard.

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Well, not to mention the hangover and then relief from the hangover.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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And so, yeah.

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It's like now I have to because I feel so bad that,

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you know,

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if I'm just going to get to normal so I can work or do anything normal,

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then I need it.

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Well,

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and I also think you I've seen people that it they don't enjoy the recovery part

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because now they're like just fisting trying to get through the week and they're really,

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really struggling where it's like you can actually enjoy.

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It can be a happy time.

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Like for us,

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it was like getting new glasses,

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like we got to see the world again and it doesn't have to be a.

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like you're just so stubborn you're not gonna you know you're and then you make it

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to the end of the month and then again you go hard and you're like i'm gonna make

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up for this whole month i didn't drink and exactly i don't know what you say to the

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patients that are like hey uh so yeah i've been holding out now i went overload and

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now i'm back in square one yeah it's the mind games that what i what i call the

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disease that's all the mind games it's set up yeah you know as you know it's a

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setup and yeah so um but yeah

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That's what I've been navigating through with a lot of clients.

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And,

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uh,

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you see a lot of people enter treatment,

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you know,

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beginning of the year and,

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and then so,

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but,

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um,

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but I'm glad you recognize that as well.

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So in California, do you have trouble dealing with like the legalization of marijuana or weed?

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Like, does that play a hard time into your practice?

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If people are like,

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well,

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I'm not drinking,

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but maybe they're smoking and they're like,

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well,

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it's legal here.

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And, you know, in Texas, it's not legal where that's where we are.

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Well, even before the legalization, it's been a rising issue.

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I just think accessibility makes it a little bit,

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and with the legality of it,

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it makes it more accessible.

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But we were seeing a lot before the legalization, a lot more marijuana-dued psychosis, right?

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You know, marijuana, 30 years ago, people wouldn't, as they're...

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you know,

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um,

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DOC would not be marijuana 30 years ago,

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you know,

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it would,

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but nowadays that's their primary drug.

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And you're seeing,

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like I said,

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a lot of,

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um,

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um,

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sub marijuana induced psychosis,

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uh,

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presenting and that being their only drug of choice.

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And so,

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uh,

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one of the things that I like to tell people and I do write about it is because I

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get this question a lot is that the

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I'm not against things like THC and alcohol and opiates.

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Of course, the illegal more.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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I was like, yeah.

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Against like the heroines and the meth and crystal and all that stuff and cocaine.

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But because there are people who can engage in substances and not be a problem.

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And there's people that can have a glass of wine with their seafood and be able to manage that.

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There's people who could smoke THC for anxiety or through cancer treatment or for insomnia.

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Yeah.

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and not overindulge.

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And so there's a people that can take a regimen of opiates for a shoulder surgery

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and not transition to heroin or anything else.

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And so the reality is though,

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is that if someone has a certain risk factor is that they have a family history of

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addiction or they themselves have a history of addiction or substance use,

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they have a underlying mental health condition,

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Is that a mind-altering substance, such as the ones I told you, can put this person at risk.

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It will make them more sensitive to an underlying condition,

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bring about the condition sooner or later,

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or it can exacerbate existing symptoms.

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And so that's kind of where it battles that argument.

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I get a lot of people like, well, THC is natural.

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Yeah.

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You know, and so forth.

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I said, yes, but you fall under a certain risk factor.

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Right.

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And that you have to be very mindful of.

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And that's what I believe it is.

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It's a risk factor.

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There's no absolute.

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But it's more.

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Oh, no, I've seen people drink normally.

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I mean, I'm always I used to be baffled by it.

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I've seen it.

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I've seen people that can just party one time and.

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Or even walk away from it, you know, and that's not my experience, but I've seen it.

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Yeah, there's there's there's there are I would say those people who all of a sudden can just.

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wake up and that's it, and I'm done.

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I believe those are what we fall under the outlier range.

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Sometimes a triggering event,

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maybe a near life experience,

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maybe a family member or a medical condition,

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going to jail,

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that could be their triggering moment.

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But I would say those are more on the rare side.

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Most of the people who end up,

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it all depends too,

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I believe,

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in how extensive their use was,

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the drug of choice that they use,

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family dynamic support system.

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There's a lot of determining factors.

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But most of the people that I've worked with in treatment and going on almost 15

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years was most of them there were put in a situation where they had to make a choice.

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Their spouse was saying, hey, we're going to divorce.

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You can't see the kids.

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You're going to jail or you're going to treatment.

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All those type of scenarios.

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Or you drink some more, your liver is going to go kaput and you're going to die.

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And sometimes they don't care.

(00:18:25):
And, you know, that's the thing.

(00:18:26):
Sometimes they don't care.

(00:18:27):
Someone at one of the groups that I attend where they were in the hospital and were

(00:18:33):
a few days from passing away just because they were told,

(00:18:37):
you know,

(00:18:38):
you can't drink anymore.

(00:18:40):
You're going to die.

(00:18:41):
Your kidneys are going to shut down and die if you drink anymore.

(00:18:44):
And they were a few months sober before they ended up drinking again and back in the hospital.

(00:18:50):
And it's just a weird thing.

(00:18:52):
Like you said,

(00:18:53):
you get this dilemma where it's like,

(00:18:55):
you can't do it anymore or else this is going to happen,

(00:18:58):
whether it's a divorce,

(00:18:59):
not see the kids or even just death.

(00:19:02):
Like you think that would be the biggest reason to stop.

(00:19:06):
And yet for some addicts,

(00:19:09):
the disease in us is just saying,

(00:19:11):
no,

(00:19:12):
he probably like,

(00:19:14):
what does he know?

(00:19:15):
people where they absolutely are completely disconnected and apathetic towards life

(00:19:19):
where they want to die,

(00:19:22):
so to speak.

(00:19:23):
Where I try to teach families is that sometimes a lot of things that they could do

(00:19:32):
on their front,

(00:19:32):
and that's where I talk about

(00:19:34):
Putting your loved one to a point of desperation Now let's assuming that there's

(00:19:37):
still a part of them that wants to live that still that that don't want to not live

(00:19:43):
anymore is Sometimes we put someone in a level of desperation That that when

(00:19:49):
they're desperate they'll do anything to relieve of that desperation That's kind of

(00:19:53):
where the strategies come from in my book.

(00:19:55):
You can't love someone out of their disease and you're right

(00:19:59):
You know,

(00:19:59):
you can't tell someone,

(00:20:00):
well,

(00:20:00):
hey,

(00:20:00):
you have kids,

(00:20:01):
you know,

(00:20:02):
or you have a job,

(00:20:02):
you have a career,

(00:20:03):
you have a spouse,

(00:20:04):
when they're really,

(00:20:05):
really deep into it and they've been completely shut off.

(00:20:08):
And sometimes you put them in a level of extreme desperation and you give them a choice,

(00:20:13):
an option.

(00:20:14):
You're not telling them what they can and cannot do.

(00:20:16):
You're just giving that option.

(00:20:17):
What I find is many, many people truly can't do real prison or jail.

(00:20:23):
People can't do true homelessness.

(00:20:27):
And I'm talking about homelessness,

(00:20:29):
dumpster diving,

(00:20:32):
you know,

(00:20:32):
on that street,

(00:20:33):
living under park benches,

(00:20:35):
homelessness.

(00:20:37):
And a lot of people really can't do psych facilities.

(00:20:40):
I mean, it's really long-term.

(00:20:41):
Yes, there's homeless people that couldn't do it.

(00:20:44):
And there's people who can do jail and prison.

(00:20:47):
But I'm assuming for the most part, they'd rather be somewhere else than there.

(00:20:52):
And so that's what I help families strategize is you give them the option and

(00:20:57):
choice that,

(00:20:57):
hey,

(00:20:58):
we want to be part of your life and we'll always love and care about you.

(00:21:02):
It's just this is what we're going to support and not support.

(00:21:04):
And I've seen it countless times where family members still come from a loving place.

(00:21:10):
And it's those connections that they make with people that when they're at that

(00:21:15):
point where it's time to make a choice,

(00:21:19):
They'll remember a lot of those connections and they'll give them a reason to want

(00:21:26):
to desire and get better.

(00:21:27):
I mean, and he was too when we got sober.

(00:21:30):
And, you know, I thought as a mom, I was like, oh, I have a child now.

(00:21:35):
Like, this is going to make the disease go away.

(00:21:38):
you know and um that i stayed sober during pregnancy that yeah there were all these

(00:21:43):
things and it thankfully i just took that moment of clarity i had and ran with it

(00:21:48):
and my mom waited till who she's 10 years sober um i i was willing to do anything

(00:21:55):
to change and she's like are you willing to do anything and

(00:21:59):
that's how we ended up getting help now that we're parents the bars so that will

(00:22:04):
keep us sober but then we brought the bars to us and you know we made our house the

(00:22:10):
drinking spot because we still had friends that would come over and drink heavy

(00:22:14):
till three four in the morning while he was asleep and we would you know just drink

(00:22:22):
all the time at the house you did was you lowered your

(00:22:25):
the risk factors.

(00:22:27):
And so, you know, one thing I talk about is the risk factor curve.

(00:22:32):
And I don't know if you remember,

(00:22:33):
speaking of COVID,

(00:22:34):
Dr.

(00:22:35):
Fauci always talked about,

(00:22:36):
we've got to flatten that risk curve.

(00:22:38):
What he was saying is that,

(00:22:41):
you know,

(00:22:41):
the way to lower your getting infected by COVID is there's certain things you have

(00:22:46):
to do,

(00:22:47):
right?

(00:22:47):
Is you wear a mask, you

(00:22:49):
social distance you wash your hands you you know take vaccine and that's that's

(00:22:57):
what I tell people but did he say that that curve will ever be completely flat and

(00:23:02):
non-existent no we're always going to have that risk and same thing with I believe

(00:23:06):
in in dealing with addiction or mental health is there's going to be that risk

(00:23:11):
factor but our job is to flatten that risk curve as much as possible such as

(00:23:16):
One thing you mentioned is people you're hanging out with,

(00:23:19):
if they're drinking a lot,

(00:23:21):
they're not in recovery,

(00:23:22):
your risk factors dramatically skyrocket because fellowship is critically important.

(00:23:29):
And of course, you're right.

(00:23:30):
You weren't access to bars and sometimes money was an issue.

(00:23:34):
So you lower those risk factors.

(00:23:36):
And so that's the goal.

(00:23:38):
I believe in people's recovery and the strength of their recovery is meaning that

(00:23:43):
they have obviously lower risk factors and a high level of protective factors.

(00:23:47):
Protective factors are basically the antithesis of the risk factors,

(00:23:51):
such as healthy fellowship,

(00:23:52):
meetings,

(00:23:53):
therapy,

(00:23:53):
mindfulness techniques,

(00:23:55):
working the steps and all those things.

(00:23:57):
And so that's kind of what the goal is.

(00:23:59):
Are we lowering our risk factors and are we increasing our protective factors?

(00:24:05):
Absolutely.

(00:24:06):
And I wanted to ask,

(00:24:08):
as far as I saw on your website,

(00:24:10):
which we're going to link in the show notes,

(00:24:13):
do you work with people only in California?

(00:24:15):
Are you Zoom-based?

(00:24:17):
Like if someone's listening to the show and they're like,

(00:24:19):
wow,

(00:24:19):
this sounds like something I would like to inquire or maybe work with you one-on-one,

(00:24:24):
are they able to book that service?

(00:24:25):
Well, it depends on what type of service.

(00:24:26):
As a licensed psychologist,

(00:24:28):
like if I was to see someone as a client and working one-on-one with them and

(00:24:33):
on some interventions and more of a psychological based type thing then I would

(00:24:40):
only be able to see clients in that capacity under my California license so only

(00:24:45):
California license but educating family members on things like that I can work a

(00:24:52):
Yes.

(00:24:52):
And your book.

(00:24:54):
Anyone can order your book.

(00:24:55):
And I saw that it's available everywhere.

(00:24:57):
So, I mean, you can.

(00:24:59):
That's a great tool.

(00:25:00):
And again, it has amazing, amazing reviews.

(00:25:03):
And the coaching.

(00:25:04):
Yeah.

(00:25:04):
So that level of coaching,

(00:25:06):
I'm able to work with people on that level because it's more of a psychoeducation

(00:25:10):
and so forth rather than like an individual or type of psychotherapy.

(00:25:15):
One thing, if I may say, you highlight a couple things is I do talk about 25 must-knows.

(00:25:19):
I don't know if you came across that.

(00:25:22):
And those are what I believe are the 25 most essential knowledges.

(00:25:27):
And a lot of those knowledge was based on those questions,

(00:25:31):
those challenges that these families were dealing with.

(00:25:35):
And so the 25 must-knows,

(00:25:37):
whether it be you're brand new to mental health or subs addiction or you've been

(00:25:41):
navigating through years as a family member,

(00:25:43):
you're a therapist an educator who is a graduate student or undergrad or you've an

(00:25:48):
expert yourself it is what i believe the most essential knowledge is i talk about

(00:25:53):
things like the myths of suicide i talk about the reason why someone uses a

(00:25:58):
substance to cope is simply because it works right you wouldn't be using it if it

(00:26:03):
didn't work for what it was originally intended but of course

(00:26:07):
As you get tolerant, it becomes counterproductive, dysfunctional.

(00:26:10):
But one of the things I do mention is the first must know is you have to have hope,

(00:26:15):
whether it be that's a person struggling or the family members who feel helpless is

(00:26:20):
because hope is this belief that something can change or something good can happen

(00:26:24):
is because I've worked with some very,

(00:26:26):
very

(00:26:26):
down and out cases and people who attempted suicide,

(00:26:30):
you know,

(00:26:30):
just 48 hours prior to coming to treatment or people who were wandering the street

(00:26:34):
homeless and psychotic hearing voices to people who had a drug overdose and they're

(00:26:39):
able to get back on track and live healthier life.

(00:26:41):
And so I like to tell these people, family members, people struggling is there is still hope.

(00:26:46):
You just have to change the strategies because what you've been doing hasn't been working.

(00:26:50):
And the last thing,

(00:26:51):
too,

(00:26:51):
that it's really important is I talk about the different phases of the recovery process.

(00:26:55):
And the phase one is 30 to 90 days.

(00:26:57):
That's where you see most people struggle,

(00:27:00):
family members disband and give up,

(00:27:03):
or the person relapses is because they're going through,

(00:27:07):
whether it be withdrawals,

(00:27:08):
the post-acute withdrawals,

(00:27:10):
or they're going through just unhealthy relationships,

(00:27:14):
toxicity,

(00:27:15):
unraveling traumas.

(00:27:17):
But you've got to get them through that first phase of 30 to 90 days because

(00:27:20):
there's a lot of amazing healing that can take place,

(00:27:22):
whether it be on a medicine level,

(00:27:25):
an abstinence level,

(00:27:26):
talking about their trauma level,

(00:27:28):
creating new fellowship level.

(00:27:31):
And so that's why I can tell family members,

(00:27:33):
just hang in there and do whatever you can to keep them in,

(00:27:36):
especially in that first 30 to 90 days.

(00:27:38):
Yeah, 100%.

(00:27:40):
And I can...

(00:27:43):
again from experience um what helped me and i mean it can be pretty much anyone is

(00:27:49):
i got a sponsor and filtering some of those questions that my head manifested it's

(00:27:56):
almost like i thought of you know a dog trying to get out of like a guarded fence

(00:28:01):
you know like

(00:28:02):
You're literally looking for any hole in it.

(00:28:05):
It's not that it had anything to do with me.

(00:28:07):
It was the addiction is like, it's going to try and manifest its way.

(00:28:12):
It's normal.

(00:28:13):
Like that's, it's a, it's a drug.

(00:28:16):
That's what it,

(00:28:16):
you know,

(00:28:17):
if you're at the point of addiction again,

(00:28:19):
I'm not talking about someone who.

(00:28:22):
has a glass or two of wine.

(00:28:24):
I'm talking like we were drinking like Handlesworth.

(00:28:27):
And,

(00:28:28):
you know,

(00:28:28):
your brain's going to try and rationalize in circles and running that by someone,

(00:28:34):
which was my sponsor,

(00:28:36):
saying it out loud,

(00:28:37):
working through it.

(00:28:38):
is really what helped those first 90 days um it's again it doesn't have to be a

(00:28:44):
sponsor it could be therapist husband but sometimes just saying it out loud so you

(00:28:49):
get it out of your head um but it's hard there's this t it's just i know from the

(00:28:55):
other side is you can feel a little crazy and i tell people i work with as sponsor

(00:29:01):
sponsee i'm like there are no crazy thoughts in your first couple of months because

(00:29:08):
someone else has had them you're not the only one you know and uh that's yeah i

(00:29:15):
just i guess that's my kind of

(00:29:18):
My side of being the one addicted is sharing, whether that be with whoever.

(00:29:26):
Again, psychologists would be the top priority.

(00:29:30):
That would be the best option.

(00:29:31):
But even so,

(00:29:34):
I think that's kind of like the advocating of asking for help,

(00:29:37):
but that's like the hardest.

(00:29:39):
the thousand pound phone you know it's it's so heavy and so hard to call but if you

(00:29:45):
just pick it up um it'd be amazed what you see on the other side

(00:29:51):
Yeah, and that's what people don't realize.

(00:29:53):
You highlight, again, a good important point.

(00:29:56):
And so three factors that I talk about that's critically important for a recovery program.

(00:30:00):
And so if I can talk real quickly,

(00:30:02):
recovery is,

(00:30:03):
the first thing we think about recovery is,

(00:30:05):
oh,

(00:30:05):
what substance or what medical condition are you recovering from?

(00:30:09):
The reality is, I believe we all have our own version of a disease.

(00:30:13):
A disease can be, of course, a medical condition.

(00:30:16):
It could be a psychiatric condition, a substance addiction.

(00:30:19):
But it could be any entity or entities that causes some challenges in our life.

(00:30:23):
Selfishness, racism, materialism, hedonism.

(00:30:27):
All of those things can cause challenges in our life.

(00:30:30):
And if it's hard to break free from and manage, then that's our version of disease.

(00:30:34):
So we're all in some form of recovery,

(00:30:36):
which is just in a general sense,

(00:30:38):
a healthier strategy or plan for better,

(00:30:42):
healthier living outcomes.

(00:30:44):
And so, but I talk about recovery.

(00:30:46):
a lot of these elements that differentiates from what I've seen,

(00:30:50):
a strong versus a weaker recovery program.

(00:30:52):
And so some of the three elements of it are structure,

(00:30:56):
routine,

(00:30:57):
and what you mentioned,

(00:30:58):
accountability.

(00:30:58):
Accountability are those entities that are going to hold you accountable.

(00:31:02):
And that could be

(00:31:04):
a a child that could be a spouse that could be a career that could be a family

(00:31:08):
member that could be a lot of different things and when people ask me like hey dr

(00:31:13):
brian why do i have to go to that meeting they always talk about god you know they

(00:31:17):
always talk about you know their their their newcomer stories and it triggers me i

(00:31:22):
said hey

(00:31:23):
You know,

(00:31:23):
if there's one word that I could summarize why you'd go to a meeting,

(00:31:26):
why you see a therapist,

(00:31:28):
why you would go to a job.

(00:31:30):
If there's one word I can only use to define it, it's accountability.

(00:31:33):
Right.

(00:31:33):
And you are there.

(00:31:34):
Yes, there's a lot of great elements that come with going to a meeting.

(00:31:37):
There's fellowship, there's commitments, there's sponsorships, there's.

(00:31:41):
speakers there's education but accountability you know is a form you are there at

(00:31:46):
least accountable for that hour or hopefully for that day that you are being held

(00:31:49):
accountable and so so it's really really critically important to the point where I

(00:31:54):
tell people that are leaving treatment let's say they were there for like 30 to 90

(00:31:58):
days you need to have at least five entities that are going to hold you accountable

(00:32:01):
and usually these are five human beings right that will hold you accountable not

(00:32:07):
curb their recommendations based on emotions they will these are the ones that will

(00:32:12):
tell you that okay what are you doing get back on track you're slipping and so so

(00:32:18):
yes i just wanted to really highlight how important accountability is

(00:32:22):
Is there one substance that you kind of deal with more in when it comes to recovery

(00:32:27):
or addiction or one that's on the rise recently?

(00:32:31):
Well, definitely, I would say the most pervasive ones.

(00:32:35):
Well, there's quite a few, but I would say alcohol, of course.

(00:32:39):
Yeah, all of them.

(00:32:39):
But alcohol definitely is because it's been around.

(00:32:44):
It's available and it's cheap, right?

(00:32:48):
Yeah.

(00:32:48):
You can buy a handle for what, like eight bucks?

(00:32:50):
Yeah.

(00:32:51):
Not the best quality.

(00:32:52):
Yeah, it depends on the quality, but yeah.

(00:32:55):
Some rough.

(00:32:58):
Oh, I'm so glad it worked over.

(00:32:59):
Oh, God.

(00:33:00):
Yeah.

(00:33:01):
So, alcohol definitely is a very pervasive one.

(00:33:04):
Then we got the benzodiazepines, which are the anti-anxiety meds, such as the Xanax, Ativan's.

(00:33:10):
You've got the THC, that's huge.

(00:33:13):
Of course, fentanyl.

(00:33:14):
Meth, right?

(00:33:16):
And I can tell you this, though.

(00:33:19):
Based on my work, meth seems to have some really, really challenging...

(00:33:27):
post acute withdrawals um yeah it really does you know meth is just just bad news

(00:33:34):
not to say those other drugs aren't but um yeah but there's even even adhd

(00:33:39):
medications you know the adderals the redolins you're seeing a lot more people

(00:33:43):
present as that drug of choice so i think the gamut cocaine is coming back or has

(00:33:49):
been coming back

(00:33:50):
for a while.

(00:33:53):
I would say the whole gamut is out there.

(00:33:55):
The problem is the accessibility.

(00:33:57):
You can literally buy substances.

(00:34:00):
Kids can buy substances, be mailed to their door.

(00:34:03):
We need a lot of work with

(00:34:07):
um,

(00:34:07):
supervise oversight that's going out there in the e-commerce world,

(00:34:11):
because I know people that have been buying THC lace stuff,

(00:34:14):
fentanyl stuff,

(00:34:15):
kids,

(00:34:16):
teenagers.

(00:34:17):
Well,

(00:34:17):
and the,

(00:34:18):
to get like the THC and a vape cartridge and stuff is becoming pretty easy to get.

(00:34:23):
And I guess I didn't think about that with the internet and everything.

(00:34:27):
Cause it's,

(00:34:28):
It wasn't so accessible,

(00:34:29):
I think,

(00:34:29):
when I was in high school,

(00:34:30):
but it definitely seems like it's just getting more and more accessible as the

(00:34:35):
years progress to get whatever you want.

(00:34:39):
Well,

(00:34:39):
there's also the factor of connection and it's like they just as we spoke to a guy

(00:34:45):
who he works with teenagers and he goes and speaks at high schools about addiction

(00:34:49):
and

(00:34:50):
you know it's all about connection and they're like oh if i go smoke this vape or

(00:34:56):
go weed like i can make a friend and it's like you can also make sober friends but

(00:35:00):
yeah it doesn't seem like you can present it at the time again it's inclusion and

(00:35:07):
connection and

(00:35:10):
Sorry.

(00:35:10):
Go.

(00:35:10):
Yeah.

(00:35:11):
I was like, at least that's what I find or hear.

(00:35:14):
But acts are resourceful.

(00:35:17):
They're so resourceful.

(00:35:19):
We were.

(00:35:19):
Yeah.

(00:35:20):
I mean.

(00:35:21):
In the ways where people can do it through Snapchat,

(00:35:24):
through,

(00:35:25):
you know,

(00:35:25):
there's a lot of ways where people can go under the radar and sell.

(00:35:29):
And so it just challenges have always been there.

(00:35:33):
And,

(00:35:33):
you know,

(00:35:34):
we have to as parents or peers or sponsors,

(00:35:39):
we have to be educated as well and and have that level of accountability in place.

(00:35:45):
Yeah.

(00:35:45):
And I think another thing the meeting kind of gives that hits your pillar is the

(00:35:48):
hope because you see a lot of hope in the room.

(00:35:53):
And I know that the God thing,

(00:35:56):
man,

(00:35:56):
I know I get that's the number one like thing that people complain about or they

(00:36:03):
say like they don't fit in with.

(00:36:06):
But when I was told in a meeting,

(00:36:08):
like look for the similarities and not the differences,

(00:36:11):
like look with a

(00:36:13):
a happy mind, you know, say, oh, I can identify with that.

(00:36:16):
And then if you don't identify,

(00:36:18):
you're just like,

(00:36:19):
OK,

(00:36:19):
that person's entitled to their opinion,

(00:36:21):
you know,

(00:36:23):
going from that,

(00:36:24):
like looking at a glass half full versus half empty.

(00:36:28):
in a meeting really made a difference for me because the there are people and you

(00:36:35):
don't there's no rules or restrictions around meetings um if you find one and you

(00:36:40):
don't like it there's another one around the corner that is like a 180 of the one

(00:36:44):
you just went to some are more conservative some are more lax um i would never

(00:36:51):
suggest i think the rule is try five you know and

(00:36:55):
Not just one and be like, okay, that one could have been a bad day.

(00:36:59):
It could have been a bad topic.

(00:37:00):
It could have...

(00:37:02):
whatever it was um but the hope and the accountability and um you know the

(00:37:08):
connection the seeing other people smile it might have been a minute since you've

(00:37:13):
seen someone genuinely smile or laugh like i remember being in the meeting and

(00:37:19):
being like i thought it was gonna be like a people in a dark alley in a room with

(00:37:22):
coffee and it's not these people are well put together they're they get their life

(00:37:26):
back

(00:37:28):
And one thing that's really important is though,

(00:37:29):
especially for your listeners,

(00:37:31):
is that 12-step recovery is definitely a way and there could be a great deal of success,

(00:37:39):
but it's not the only way,

(00:37:40):
right?

(00:37:41):
It's not the only way.

(00:37:42):
And what I usually tell people as well,

(00:37:44):
because in the treatment that I worked at,

(00:37:46):
12-step was part of the recovery process.

(00:37:49):
It wasn't 12-step based, but it was

(00:37:51):
part of the process and when they struggled with that I said well if you don't have

(00:37:56):
the God component in your life is that

(00:37:59):
Do you believe in any entity greater than you?

(00:38:01):
And that entity could be outer space.

(00:38:03):
It could be mother nature.

(00:38:04):
It could be the ocean.

(00:38:06):
It could be one person finally said, it's my better self, right?

(00:38:10):
That's his greater power, better self.

(00:38:12):
And so you go into it because a lot of times people,

(00:38:15):
especially when they want to resist something,

(00:38:16):
they'll deconstruct everything.

(00:38:18):
You know,

(00:38:18):
the people,

(00:38:19):
I mean,

(00:38:20):
not to take anything away,

(00:38:21):
but the people who deconstructed a lot of the 12 steps were people who were in this

(00:38:26):
level of education where,

(00:38:28):
you know,

(00:38:28):
give me an explanation to it or I'm going to philosophize this,

(00:38:33):
you know,

(00:38:35):
deconstruct it all the way to its basic atom and find a reason to resist it.

(00:38:41):
And yeah, just any entity that's greater than you that you can...

(00:38:45):
believe that's just bigger than you.

(00:38:47):
A hill can be bigger than you.

(00:38:49):
And that gentleman who did that because he was very resistant,

(00:38:51):
he just said,

(00:38:52):
okay,

(00:38:54):
my healthier self right now is going to be...

(00:38:56):
And I've seen it happen before.

(00:38:57):
I've seen people who are atheists when they leave treatment.

(00:39:01):
It's like, okay, maybe there is something out there.

(00:39:04):
People who are agnostic.

(00:39:06):
they okay maybe there's a god and people who were very connected with their god had

(00:39:10):
a closer relationship and so i've seen that happen uh before in many levels and so

(00:39:17):
just yeah there's it's not the only way you know there's smart recovery and there's

(00:39:20):
all those different different models some churches have their own modalities some

(00:39:25):
religions and so forth so um it is one element because of what it provides right

(00:39:31):
with

(00:39:32):
Also therapy.

(00:39:33):
Like, I mean, I work right now.

(00:39:35):
I work with my therapist on a deeper level and doing some different like CBT

(00:39:40):
methods and working on the trauma that maybe I drank at.

(00:39:44):
Now, again, I got sober through 12 steps, but you learn that beyond recovery is...

(00:39:52):
there's different levels.

(00:39:53):
So like you said,

(00:39:53):
that first,

(00:39:54):
like,

(00:39:54):
you know,

(00:39:54):
30 to 90 days,

(00:39:57):
you're just kind of getting your footing,

(00:39:58):
you're learning the game,

(00:40:00):
you're the support support,

(00:40:02):
but then,

(00:40:02):
you know,

(00:40:03):
again,

(00:40:04):
you grow,

(00:40:04):
there's different and not everyone who grows the same rate.

(00:40:08):
There is no,

(00:40:10):
um,

(00:40:10):
and what works for you might not work for someone else,

(00:40:13):
but it might,

(00:40:14):
it might not.

(00:40:15):
why don't like after um you know i'm going through the a and working the steps and

(00:40:21):
getting sober that way then going back and looking at it past already i'm already

(00:40:27):
quote unquote recovered or alcohol is not a big issue for me but re-looking at

(00:40:32):
those steps it became more of oh this is kind of like a blueprint on how to live

(00:40:36):
life to be a successful human being

(00:40:39):
to just be, you know, a good person.

(00:40:42):
And it's like if I had would have had this in place growing up as a teenager,

(00:40:46):
you know,

(00:40:47):
this would have been a really good structure blueprint to have going forward

(00:40:52):
because I didn't have that.

(00:40:53):
And I just kind of went through life half assing a lot of different things.

(00:40:58):
and using drugs and alcohol to fall back on as,

(00:41:02):
you know,

(00:41:03):
the you know,

(00:41:04):
to use that as,

(00:41:05):
oh,

(00:41:05):
I'm blaming.

(00:41:06):
I use I would blame things on certain things because I was drunk or but I would

(00:41:11):
also use that if I succeeded at anything.

(00:41:14):
So it was just this weird fallback plan to always get drunk.

(00:41:19):
But the steps all of a sudden became this good blueprint of how to live life.

(00:41:24):
and that's what again give it to something other than yourself because i think um

(00:41:30):
as bill says in the book you know we like to control and it's i think typical of

(00:41:34):
addicts that you know we think we can do it differently that's what relapse is is

(00:41:38):
we go out and we're like this time's not going to be like last time and you get to

(00:41:45):
that again it's just that uh they call the wash cycle you know it's over and over

(00:41:50):
but um

(00:41:53):
For this time of year.

(00:41:54):
Yeah.

(00:41:54):
I guess one of the things that we'd say,

(00:41:57):
go to your website,

(00:41:58):
you know,

(00:41:59):
you have a lot of good resources.

(00:42:00):
Your book is widely available.

(00:42:02):
So if you're in this hearing this and you're having someone who's a loved one reach

(00:42:09):
out to you,

(00:42:09):
just,

(00:42:10):
you said,

(00:42:11):
first off,

(00:42:11):
remember there's hope.

(00:42:13):
And you write and share about that hope in the different 25 strategies and steps,

(00:42:19):
like a blueprint to helping your loved one.

(00:42:22):
And thankfully Amazon is next day.

(00:42:24):
So, I mean, you don't have to wait very long, but, or even like, I think I saw Kindle as well.

(00:42:30):
Kindle.

(00:42:30):
I, I've had people, um,

(00:42:33):
Ask me a couple things.

(00:42:35):
Audio, right?

(00:42:36):
I've had some Spanish people ask me if you can get it translated.

(00:42:39):
But I think the next on the docket is doing a workbook.

(00:42:42):
I know a lot of people in recovery like workbooks.

(00:42:44):
So I've got a lot of people.

(00:42:46):
Love it.

(00:42:46):
We love workbooks.

(00:42:47):
I loved homework at first.

(00:42:49):
Because your mind hasn't been working for so long that you're like,

(00:42:54):
it's nice to remind you of what you're capable of in something as simple as...

(00:43:01):
filling out a 10 questionnaire, it's like, Oh my God, I can do this again.

(00:43:06):
Because when you're drinking as often as we were,

(00:43:08):
it's like that looked as,

(00:43:11):
um,

(00:43:12):
it's just,

(00:43:13):
you know,

(00:43:14):
you get this book and it's like,

(00:43:15):
okay,

(00:43:15):
workbook is,

(00:43:16):
it's a little bit shorter version.

(00:43:18):
It's to the point and it's, there's things you can write down.

(00:43:21):
So, so that's probably going to be my first thing.

(00:43:25):
the writing part is the you know it gets out of your head like my emma was a

(00:43:29):
therapist in um santa monica and she was 20 years there and she always told me um

(00:43:35):
if i really wanted to get deep in my answers was writing with my left hand you

(00:43:39):
write with your non-dominant hand and it can pull out a different part of your

(00:43:43):
brain and i mean there's a part to writing your inventory and step four again

(00:43:49):
The similarity is not the differences.

(00:43:51):
It's 100 years old.

(00:43:52):
Yes, it was not wrote by people that studied it as much.

(00:43:58):
I'm sure they wish they had more time.

(00:43:59):
I know Bill did.

(00:44:01):
It's, again, a great tool.

(00:44:03):
It saved my life, but...

(00:44:06):
There are so many ways to get help.

(00:44:09):
And if you're,

(00:44:10):
if you just ask,

(00:44:11):
I promise you'll have a hundred resources in front of you within minutes.

(00:44:15):
Like you see on Twitter,

(00:44:17):
someone's shares that they're like 10 days sober and it has thousands of likes and

(00:44:21):
you know,

(00:44:21):
it's like,

(00:44:22):
yeah,

(00:44:22):
we do recover and we'll help.

(00:44:24):
You just got to share it.

(00:44:26):
And there's other ways to get.

(00:44:27):
And there's other, there's so many different ways.

(00:44:29):
One way.

(00:44:30):
No, no, it's not.

(00:44:31):
And there are some people that will tell you,

(00:44:33):
yeah,

(00:44:33):
it's,

(00:44:34):
if you don't do AA,

(00:44:35):
you'll be a dry drunk.

(00:44:36):
And that's just not true.

(00:44:37):
It's not true.

(00:44:39):
Um, and we're speaking as someone who's come from, you know, working the steps.

(00:44:43):
Yeah.

(00:44:44):
Um,

(00:44:45):
But just if I may add to,

(00:44:47):
you know,

(00:44:47):
so that book was originally designed for families in crisis.

(00:44:51):
They're like, my God, if my loved one doesn't get help, something bad is going to happen.

(00:44:55):
They're going to die.

(00:44:55):
They're going to harm someone.

(00:44:57):
They're going to put them put themselves in a situation they can't recover from.

(00:45:01):
So that's what it's really designed for.

(00:45:02):
I also highlight what I found as the most robust attributes of a strong recovery program.

(00:45:09):
There's like 15 or so, whether it be the structural accountability.

(00:45:14):
I talked about the three non-negotiables that family members should hold no matter

(00:45:19):
what if they're going to support their loved one.

(00:45:20):
I talk about spirituality is critical and all those different elements.

(00:45:24):
So someone who's out of recovery and looking for phase four that I call,

(00:45:28):
which is two years plus of recovery,

(00:45:30):
those are the attributes that differentiate people who continue to progress in

(00:45:34):
recovery and people who didn't.

(00:45:36):
And so it could be helpful for maybe someone who has navigated through their own

(00:45:40):
treatment and maybe want to help someone else who's having trouble and challenges.

(00:45:43):
question actually i just thought of because i've had so much outreach about it and

(00:45:48):
this is something i don't necessarily deal with other than people keep asking about

(00:45:54):
um relapsed dreams and i i have none of my own because i always have my tattoo in

(00:46:00):
my dreams and i've had nightmares about him relapsing and coming home drunk um but

(00:46:07):
a lot of people are asking like

(00:46:11):
don't know like they just like i guess they get freaked out even and maybe it

(00:46:15):
causes some like heightened anxiety insomnia of like it felt so real yeah that it

(00:46:22):
almost scares them and i've had a few people message like oh i'd love to if you

(00:46:25):
guys talked more about dreams and i'm

(00:46:28):
Like, I don't really have any.

(00:46:29):
Um, I said great.

(00:46:31):
I'm not a dream analyst, so to speak, but you know, as you know, I, um, specialize in insomnia.

(00:46:35):
And so what I had find a lot were a lot of sleep conditions or sleep disorders,

(00:46:40):
whether it be nightmare disorders or relapse,

(00:46:42):
um,

(00:46:43):
relapsed dreams is that there's some type of either stress or conflict going on,

(00:46:49):
a high degree of stress or a high degree of conflict.

(00:46:52):
And when I say conflict, we're using dreams.

(00:46:55):
There's usually a lot of people in early recovery are in conflict.

(00:46:58):
Do I want to be sober or not?

(00:46:59):
Do I want to drink or not?

(00:47:00):
Do I want to use or not?

(00:47:02):
And so those manifest itself in stress levels, anxiety that can manifest in dreams.

(00:47:06):
And so I know those dreams are very real,

(00:47:08):
People wake up and thought,

(00:47:10):
holy crap,

(00:47:10):
I need to get tested or UA'd because I feel like I just used.

(00:47:14):
And so those are very real, very normal.

(00:47:16):
But if you're familiar with the post-acute withdrawal terminology,

(00:47:20):
those changes that take place when you stop engaging in a substance and dreams are normal.

(00:47:26):
And as you get healthier and sober, those using dreams...

(00:47:30):
diminish over time,

(00:47:31):
at least the intensity,

(00:47:32):
but doesn't mean I've had people still have them every once in a while.

(00:47:36):
And so, so, so, so that's a very normal part of the process.

(00:47:40):
And it's the best thing you can do is manage your stress levels as best as possible.

(00:47:47):
And, and hopefully those using dreams will relapse.

(00:47:49):
Yes.

(00:47:50):
It's not abnormal because again, I, I,

(00:47:53):
I want to say when I had it was definitely early on when I would have a couple and

(00:47:59):
it was right.

(00:48:00):
Yeah, I would wake up in the first 30 seconds of me being up.

(00:48:03):
I was like, oh, my God, what did I do?

(00:48:05):
What happened?

(00:48:06):
And then it took me a while to realize I'm in bed.

(00:48:08):
I'm OK that that didn't happen.

(00:48:11):
I was like, this is it's five in the morning right now and it takes a while to sink in.

(00:48:16):
But yeah, I think it's when you're in some early conflict mode.

(00:48:21):
And you got to recognize if engaging in a substance for a long period of time,

(00:48:24):
it changed a lot of your neurochemistry as well.

(00:48:26):
So a lot of stuff's going on in that process, memories and stuff.

(00:48:30):
And so your brain is healing.

(00:48:31):
And that's why those first 30 to 90 days are critically, critically important.

(00:48:35):
And that's where people struggle.

(00:48:36):
It's like, oh, screw this.

(00:48:37):
Getting sober is a lot worse than using.

(00:48:40):
Right.

(00:48:40):
But that's that's the fallacy of the disease.

(00:48:42):
Right.

(00:48:42):
Oh, God.

(00:48:45):
You know.

(00:48:47):
I'm like,

(00:48:47):
and that's where you learn,

(00:48:49):
like,

(00:48:49):
and I'm learning this in post in school more rather is even like looking at,

(00:48:56):
you know,

(00:48:57):
MRIs of knowing that when you look at like a cocaine,

(00:49:00):
like cocaine,

(00:49:01):
if you've done it before,

(00:49:02):
you see it on the screen,

(00:49:04):
even in a movie,

(00:49:05):
which is why a lot of treatment centers don't recommend you watch like drug using

(00:49:09):
movies is you can highlight,

(00:49:11):
I mean,

(00:49:12):
your brain,

(00:49:13):
your dopamine receptors,

(00:49:14):
epinephrine will look like go off and.

(00:49:17):
To me,

(00:49:17):
I'm like,

(00:49:17):
oh,

(00:49:17):
my God,

(00:49:18):
that that's kind of why they don't have it at treatment centers,

(00:49:22):
because you can still activate it or the memory sense of it while you're leveling out.

(00:49:29):
I've had to do articles on which California is big on on doing the safe treat or

(00:49:35):
safe use houses and the pros and cons on that and like the doxin.

(00:49:40):
And I've had to do lots of research on those and kind of present.

(00:49:46):
pros and cons to it um which i still i don't personally know how i feel i'm like

(00:49:52):
i'm pretty i feel both are there's good arguments for both sides um and probably

(00:49:59):
towards the safe use side but it is a little weird to know you know um things even

(00:50:04):
exist i know but i'm glad because there are if people use them properly it gets

(00:50:09):
them the help they need

(00:50:11):
Again, these are all tools.

(00:50:12):
Harm reduction is definitely like anything else.

(00:50:15):
It's an option out there.

(00:50:16):
It doesn't work for everyone.

(00:50:18):
Usually the people that were focused for my book is that they've tried harm reduction.

(00:50:24):
They've microdosed.

(00:50:25):
They've done all types of their own regimen and blueprints, and it obviously didn't work.

(00:50:29):
So harm reduction, it's an option out there.

(00:50:32):
We've done the whole list.

(00:50:32):
It's the same thing as passing out condoms.

(00:50:35):
to teenagers you know and i know there's all kinds or even passing out clean

(00:50:41):
needles i mean there's places that pass out clean needles right and i mean there's

(00:50:45):
that there's that there's that whole aspect of it see it but

(00:50:50):
well thank you and i again i'll link everything in the show notes so that way

(00:50:54):
people i make it very easy i don't make you work i want to be able to just let you

(00:50:58):
click on the link and it'll take you right where you need to go and because that is

(00:51:03):
another thing the attention span is lessening and i'm learning that on the

(00:51:09):
psychology side on even just doing

(00:51:12):
digital media of how we can get attention to people in addiction because there's a

(00:51:19):
very small window and,

(00:51:21):
and you want to take advantage of that window.

(00:51:23):
So, um, learning that kind of stuff in school right now.

(00:51:26):
So yes, yes.

(00:51:28):
Thank you so much.

(00:51:29):
I was very, very, um, grateful for this.

(00:51:33):
Cause I was like, yeah, this is kind of stuff I would have done in school.

(00:51:37):
So it's cool.

(00:51:38):
Thank you for what you're doing as well.

(00:51:39):
So, um,

(00:51:41):
No.

(00:51:42):
Evan, do you want to say bye?

(00:51:43):
Bye.

(00:51:44):
Yeah.

(00:51:45):
Yeah, he's my now one.

(00:51:47):
I'm like, my amend to him was to never take a drink again.

(00:51:50):
That's good accountability.

(00:51:54):
Yeah, exactly.

(00:51:56):
And it just came with time.

(00:51:58):
Do you want to say thank you for listening to Sober Banter?

(00:52:00):
Thank you for listening to Sober Banter.

(00:52:04):
There we go.

(00:52:05):
All right.

(00:52:07):
He's great.

(00:52:08):
Bye.

(00:52:09):
Bye.

(00:52:09):
Bye.