1 00:00:02,190 --> 00:00:04,230 Jethro Jones: Welcome to transformative principle where you 2 00:00:04,230 --> 00:00:07,920 learn how to be a leader and not just a manager of a to-do list. 3 00:00:08,100 --> 00:00:09,480 I'm your host Jethro Jones. 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,330 You can find me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 5 00:00:14,190 --> 00:00:18,500 At the end of each of my mastermind sessions, after a person has stated. 6 00:00:19,110 --> 00:00:22,380 Problem they're facing and gotten support on what they need. 7 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:26,310 I ask everyone, what is it that was most useful to you today? 8 00:00:26,970 --> 00:00:28,140 And here are some of the comments. 9 00:00:28,140 --> 00:00:32,400 Recently, one person said I'm not feeling stressed anymore. 10 00:00:33,089 --> 00:00:38,220 Another person said I appreciated seeing the other people are struggling with 11 00:00:38,220 --> 00:00:39,989 these documents that I need to work on. 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,550 Another person said I have confidence that I'm no longer alone. 13 00:00:45,780 --> 00:00:49,170 Another person said, getting a zoom tutorial and knowing how to 14 00:00:49,170 --> 00:00:53,940 use that more effectively really helped another person said, well, 15 00:00:53,970 --> 00:00:55,500 I'll save that one for next week. 16 00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:59,370 What I want to say to you today is the mastermind is an amazing opportunity. 17 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:04,530 If you've been thinking about it, it's time to go to Jethro jones.com/mastermind 18 00:01:04,950 --> 00:01:06,030 and schedule a call with me. 19 00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:08,100 And let's talk about whether or not it's right for you. 20 00:01:08,580 --> 00:01:11,460 That's jets or jones.com/mastermind. 21 00:01:12,750 --> 00:01:13,890 This week's episode. 22 00:01:14,685 --> 00:01:16,875 Is brought to you by junk cat educational. 23 00:01:17,325 --> 00:01:21,345 You can get a discount on the awesome books that they have available by 24 00:01:21,345 --> 00:01:27,585 going to us dot John cat, bookshop.com and using the code transformative 30. 25 00:01:28,005 --> 00:01:30,855 That'll save you 30% on any order. 26 00:01:31,095 --> 00:01:33,885 That's us dot John cat, bookshop.com. 27 00:01:34,785 --> 00:01:37,515 And the code is transformative 30. 28 00:01:38,684 --> 00:01:40,604 Welcome to transformative principle. 29 00:01:40,604 --> 00:01:45,345 This is episode 337, and I am excited to be chatting with Amber 30 00:01:45,345 --> 00:01:49,994 Demboski, who is a principal of two schools like me right now. 31 00:01:50,054 --> 00:01:53,744 And that is exciting, actually, not right now anymore, because. 32 00:01:54,580 --> 00:01:58,840 As of this month, I am now a free agent out there doing my thing. 33 00:01:58,870 --> 00:02:01,360 So I'm excited about that. 34 00:02:01,420 --> 00:02:04,479 And Amber, welcome to transformative principle. 35 00:02:04,630 --> 00:02:05,170 Thanks so much. 36 00:02:05,170 --> 00:02:06,550 I'm happy to be here, man. 37 00:02:06,550 --> 00:02:11,530 I am happy to talk with you as someone who is juggling multiple schools 38 00:02:11,530 --> 00:02:13,510 and serving principals as well. 39 00:02:13,510 --> 00:02:17,350 I know how challenging that can be and that's what you are doing. 40 00:02:17,350 --> 00:02:21,370 So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, your work 41 00:02:21,370 --> 00:02:23,200 in schools and your work supporting. 42 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:24,579 Sure. 43 00:02:25,119 --> 00:02:27,459 Amber Dembowski: Well, you know, I've worked in many different 44 00:02:27,459 --> 00:02:33,640 facets of education and I think that's one thing that has really 45 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:35,109 built me up throughout the years. 46 00:02:35,109 --> 00:02:39,850 So years ago, I started as a teacher, a paraprofessional or a teacher aid. 47 00:02:40,209 --> 00:02:43,839 Then I was a substitute teacher and then a classroom teacher and I 48 00:02:43,839 --> 00:02:45,579 evolved into an instructional coach. 49 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,980 I worked as a district trainer. 50 00:02:48,279 --> 00:02:50,260 I was also an instructor at a university. 51 00:02:51,065 --> 00:02:55,415 And then I moved into principalship and did some consultants work on the side. 52 00:02:55,415 --> 00:02:56,765 I continue to do that. 53 00:02:57,065 --> 00:03:00,364 And then I was asked to be the principal of a second building. 54 00:03:00,364 --> 00:03:04,295 So like you mentioned, I'm the principal of two elementary buildings. 55 00:03:04,894 --> 00:03:08,825 The second building, I was asked to be principal there because it was the 56 00:03:08,825 --> 00:03:11,435 lowest performing school in the district. 57 00:03:11,825 --> 00:03:14,734 The teachers were feeling pretty beat down. 58 00:03:15,390 --> 00:03:20,490 And the districts gave me the charge to kind of go in and build that 59 00:03:20,490 --> 00:03:24,510 culture up and increase that teaching and learning within that building. 60 00:03:25,050 --> 00:03:29,490 So throughout all of these experiences, I have gained a lot 61 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,090 of understanding about how school. 62 00:03:33,655 --> 00:03:36,835 And more importantly, teachers' work. 63 00:03:37,495 --> 00:03:42,535 And I have met so many people who have influenced me through all of these 64 00:03:42,535 --> 00:03:47,515 experiences that have really impacted who I am today and what I believe in. 65 00:03:49,375 --> 00:03:51,775 Jethro Jones: It's very interesting that they would send you to a 66 00:03:51,805 --> 00:03:55,915 low-performing school as a second school, not to put your whole focus there. 67 00:03:56,245 --> 00:04:00,085 What are the challenges with having a poorly performing school? 68 00:04:00,765 --> 00:04:04,035 Be your second school and not the only one you focus on. 69 00:04:04,755 --> 00:04:05,115 You know, 70 00:04:05,175 --> 00:04:09,555 Amber Dembowski: the biggest challenge has been that I was with one school 71 00:04:09,555 --> 00:04:11,565 for three years prior to that. 72 00:04:12,015 --> 00:04:16,515 And so they were really in a different place than my second school. 73 00:04:16,515 --> 00:04:21,075 When I was brought on, I bring the staff together for professional 74 00:04:21,075 --> 00:04:26,265 learning for our staff meetings, for our PLCs and collaborations. 75 00:04:27,340 --> 00:04:31,210 What remains difficult is both buildings are just in a different 76 00:04:31,390 --> 00:04:34,760 place because of my time with. 77 00:04:36,015 --> 00:04:36,285 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 78 00:04:36,285 --> 00:04:38,685 So with your first school, you've been there for three years, 79 00:04:38,685 --> 00:04:43,215 establish some routines, policies, procedures, culture, all that stuff. 80 00:04:43,245 --> 00:04:45,555 And then you got to jump into the second one. 81 00:04:46,005 --> 00:04:51,765 And we all know from experience that if you are leading a school and 82 00:04:52,035 --> 00:04:55,185 you know, you do certain things to get to a certain point and then you 83 00:04:55,185 --> 00:04:57,045 don't have to redo all those things. 84 00:04:57,854 --> 00:04:59,685 All the time, because everybody understands. 85 00:04:59,685 --> 00:05:00,614 That's how things work. 86 00:05:00,614 --> 00:05:02,414 That's part of building a school culture. 87 00:05:02,775 --> 00:05:05,565 And so now you got to bring a second school on and then you do 88 00:05:05,565 --> 00:05:07,065 professional development together. 89 00:05:07,335 --> 00:05:11,145 That sounds like a really challenging, challenging thing to put together. 90 00:05:11,445 --> 00:05:14,895 So let's talk about some of the mistakes that instructional meetings. 91 00:05:15,585 --> 00:05:18,165 And not meters leaders, excuse me. 92 00:05:18,375 --> 00:05:22,215 Some of the common mistakes that instructional leaders make, what 93 00:05:22,215 --> 00:05:25,905 are the pitfalls that you see in instructional leaders doing okay, for 94 00:05:25,905 --> 00:05:26,325 Amber Dembowski: sure. 95 00:05:26,325 --> 00:05:29,205 And actually these are all mistakes that I've made myself. 96 00:05:29,265 --> 00:05:33,435 I recently published an article for AFCD about the four common 97 00:05:33,435 --> 00:05:36,315 mistakes and instructional leaders make and how to avoid them. 98 00:05:36,375 --> 00:05:36,825 And. 99 00:05:37,510 --> 00:05:42,850 These were all mistakes that I made made, and I continue to make mistakes every day. 100 00:05:43,030 --> 00:05:45,280 So there's nothing wrong with going out and making mistakes. 101 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:49,390 I don't want anyone to walk away thinking that, um, because of that, how's 102 00:05:49,390 --> 00:05:52,180 that saying go, if you're not making mistakes, that means you're not trying. 103 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:52,570 Right. 104 00:05:53,140 --> 00:05:57,670 And some of the mistakes that I'm going to focus on, I think we'll settle really well 105 00:05:58,090 --> 00:06:00,010 with the instructional leaders out there. 106 00:06:00,070 --> 00:06:01,690 I think they'll agree with it. 107 00:06:01,690 --> 00:06:03,760 And then some of them, I think will challenge. 108 00:06:04,285 --> 00:06:05,245 Some of their thinking. 109 00:06:05,575 --> 00:06:09,565 The first one that I had mentioned in the article is that we're focusing too 110 00:06:09,565 --> 00:06:15,235 much on student outcomes and I think most people would agree with that statement. 111 00:06:15,235 --> 00:06:17,995 Once they hear me talk a little bit more about it. 112 00:06:18,385 --> 00:06:22,735 I believe that if a heavy load of your time, when it comes to school improvement 113 00:06:23,215 --> 00:06:27,585 is looking at student performance, then you're focusing on the wrong thing. 114 00:06:28,230 --> 00:06:30,870 I am a strong believer that data's information. 115 00:06:31,140 --> 00:06:33,510 I'm a total data guru, so don't get me wrong. 116 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:38,490 It becomes a guide for us, but if we spend most of our time doing only that, 117 00:06:39,330 --> 00:06:40,830 then I think we're missing the boat. 118 00:06:41,190 --> 00:06:44,730 Most of our time, it needs to be spent on asking ourselves why. 119 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,370 So why are we seeing the results we're seeing? 120 00:06:47,940 --> 00:06:52,020 And then the real dirty work begins by adjusting what's happening in the class. 121 00:06:52,645 --> 00:06:55,614 I think most instructional leaders would agree with me on that. 122 00:06:56,215 --> 00:06:59,695 Whether that's what's actually happening, that's not always the case. 123 00:06:59,695 --> 00:07:05,005 Sometimes most of our time for PLCs is spent doing the data digs, but 124 00:07:05,005 --> 00:07:07,075 then what do we need to do next? 125 00:07:07,734 --> 00:07:11,424 Um, most of our time should be spent on building that teacher capacity and 126 00:07:11,424 --> 00:07:15,984 ensuring that the instructional practices happening in the classroom are in response 127 00:07:15,984 --> 00:07:18,655 to the information that the data provides. 128 00:07:19,515 --> 00:07:23,414 And so that's where that first mistake comes in, I think would settle or 129 00:07:23,414 --> 00:07:24,645 settle with most people's thinking. 130 00:07:25,695 --> 00:07:25,994 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 131 00:07:26,025 --> 00:07:31,094 You know, we've really changed how we focus in education on different things. 132 00:07:31,104 --> 00:07:35,505 And focusing on outcomes has seemed to just ratchet up even 133 00:07:35,565 --> 00:07:37,455 more and more as time goes on. 134 00:07:37,455 --> 00:07:42,104 And I think that that's a really good point that we need to step back and figure 135 00:07:42,104 --> 00:07:46,244 out why things are happening, how they are and not make everything about that. 136 00:07:46,995 --> 00:07:50,715 Outcome and recognizing that kids are multifaceted, that they have 137 00:07:50,715 --> 00:07:52,635 lives outside of school and the. 138 00:07:53,415 --> 00:07:57,195 What happens in school is not everything to them as it shouldn't 139 00:07:57,195 --> 00:07:58,725 be everything to us either. 140 00:07:58,905 --> 00:08:02,475 What's the second mistake that people often make instructional 141 00:08:02,475 --> 00:08:03,615 leaders specifically. 142 00:08:04,785 --> 00:08:06,945 Amber Dembowski: Well, and this one in general can sometimes 143 00:08:06,945 --> 00:08:08,415 challenge people's thinking. 144 00:08:08,505 --> 00:08:11,865 Um, the second mistake is just staying out of the teacher's way. 145 00:08:11,865 --> 00:08:14,205 People will say, I'm sure you've heard this. 146 00:08:14,325 --> 00:08:15,975 You know, that teacher's doing a great job. 147 00:08:16,005 --> 00:08:16,905 I just let her do her 148 00:08:16,905 --> 00:08:17,325 Jethro Jones: thing. 149 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:20,099 Amber Dembowski: Right. 150 00:08:20,099 --> 00:08:20,610 Me too. 151 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:21,030 Me too. 152 00:08:21,870 --> 00:08:24,510 So essentially we work with a variety of teachers. 153 00:08:25,050 --> 00:08:30,570 So in my consultant work, I talk about the four types of teachers and I've named 154 00:08:30,570 --> 00:08:35,700 them based on their traits and performance levels, um, just for simplicity sake. 155 00:08:36,150 --> 00:08:40,650 So there's the notables, the classics that interim amateurs and the site liners. 156 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:41,970 And I'll go into that a little bit more. 157 00:08:42,424 --> 00:08:45,215 You're in a minute, but the teachers can work throughout 158 00:08:45,215 --> 00:08:46,745 these stages throughout the day. 159 00:08:46,745 --> 00:08:49,985 So just because there are notable when they're teaching math 160 00:08:50,015 --> 00:08:51,035 doesn't mean they're notable. 161 00:08:51,035 --> 00:08:55,025 When they're teaching reading, it really depends on their experience 162 00:08:55,535 --> 00:08:59,915 and their expertise, their motivation, and even their self-reflection with 163 00:08:59,915 --> 00:09:05,190 whatever the task is that they're, you know, And although I don't 164 00:09:05,190 --> 00:09:07,440 believe there's a perfect formula. 165 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,760 Um, so working with teachers, um, I do think that understanding some of 166 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:17,040 the fundamentals of human behavior does allow us to build the capacity 167 00:09:17,070 --> 00:09:18,570 and their capacity for success. 168 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:21,510 Um, so if we just start by talking about the notables and the notables, 169 00:09:21,510 --> 00:09:22,800 those are the peak performers. 170 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,230 Those are the ones that were saying, Hey, they're doing a great job, 171 00:09:25,230 --> 00:09:29,510 was to stay out of the way they generally represent about 20% of our. 172 00:09:30,345 --> 00:09:35,775 And if we think about it, their capacity is endless because they continue growing. 173 00:09:36,225 --> 00:09:39,915 And in all honesty, we're going to get the most bang for our 174 00:09:39,915 --> 00:09:42,375 buck with this group of teachers. 175 00:09:43,245 --> 00:09:47,745 On a scale from one to 10, they give us a 10 on each day, but if they're 176 00:09:47,745 --> 00:09:53,235 not fully engaged and developed through the feedback that we provide them, then 177 00:09:53,235 --> 00:09:56,385 they're 10 turns into a seven tomorrow. 178 00:09:56,775 --> 00:09:59,595 So often what I see happen is leaders with. 179 00:10:00,180 --> 00:10:03,089 Leave this group of teachers alone, because they always think this 180 00:10:03,089 --> 00:10:08,280 group of employees has it figured out which they do, but they always 181 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,350 remain 50% of developed because they're always wanting to learn. 182 00:10:13,829 --> 00:10:18,870 So leaving them alone is not how to build their capacity and we 183 00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:22,290 need to really unpack the feedback for them, just like we would. 184 00:10:22,290 --> 00:10:23,100 Any other teacher. 185 00:10:23,685 --> 00:10:23,925 Yeah, 186 00:10:23,925 --> 00:10:26,505 Jethro Jones: let me just jump in there because I think that this is 187 00:10:26,505 --> 00:10:29,505 an important piece that I've talked about many times on this podcast. 188 00:10:29,505 --> 00:10:34,755 The idea of it's not your job as the principal to put a lid on anybody. 189 00:10:35,175 --> 00:10:38,235 And, and I've said that numerous times as I'm bringing it up, because 190 00:10:38,235 --> 00:10:41,565 I think the notables, when they're doing their thing, then yes, you 191 00:10:41,565 --> 00:10:43,095 let them go and do their thing. 192 00:10:43,425 --> 00:10:47,385 But that doesn't mean that you let them go and don't ever give them feedback 193 00:10:47,385 --> 00:10:49,565 or talk with them or, or help them get. 194 00:10:50,325 --> 00:10:54,885 But you continue that process of challenging and pushing them. 195 00:10:55,275 --> 00:10:56,775 So quick story about that. 196 00:10:56,865 --> 00:11:01,965 I have a librarian or had a librarian who was a phenomenal, phenomenal. 197 00:11:03,060 --> 00:11:07,410 And she was a great teacher of adults and of kids did wonderful things 198 00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:12,630 and I would constantly push her to do better than she was doing at 199 00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:14,010 whatever it was that she was doing. 200 00:11:14,430 --> 00:11:17,640 Not in a like, you know, let me go find something that you're 201 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:18,810 doing wrong because you're. 202 00:11:19,305 --> 00:11:19,845 Really amazing. 203 00:11:19,845 --> 00:11:23,655 I'm just trying to nitpick, you know, but like, okay, you've, you've reached 204 00:11:23,655 --> 00:11:26,805 this plateau, what's next for you and how are you going to do that? 205 00:11:26,805 --> 00:11:30,135 And so at the recent technology conference in our state this year, she 206 00:11:30,135 --> 00:11:35,805 presented three or four times in a row in one day and was just like, it was 207 00:11:35,805 --> 00:11:40,815 super stressful for her, but she was so grateful that I had pushed her to apply 208 00:11:40,815 --> 00:11:46,455 to present two years ago that she was now comfortable taking on that challenge. 209 00:11:47,209 --> 00:11:51,109 Was sharing what she was doing with others so that she could share 210 00:11:51,229 --> 00:11:55,670 her notable illness out with other teachers and librarians as well. 211 00:11:56,060 --> 00:11:59,750 And, and that's where I was just going to 212 00:11:59,750 --> 00:12:01,189 Amber Dembowski: say a lot of times, that's what it's about 213 00:12:01,189 --> 00:12:05,900 with the notables is encouraging them to increase their influence. 214 00:12:05,959 --> 00:12:10,010 That's really what it's about because when you're teaching others, you 215 00:12:10,010 --> 00:12:13,939 continue to grow as a person and you're learning more as you're teaching. 216 00:12:15,060 --> 00:12:15,360 Jethro Jones: Yup. 217 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:16,319 Totally true. 218 00:12:16,949 --> 00:12:21,300 That John Kat educational supports high quality teaching and learning 219 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:25,710 by providing publications that are research-based practical and focused 220 00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:29,579 on the key topics, proven essential and today's and tomorrow's schools. 221 00:12:30,090 --> 00:12:34,829 Visit us dot John cat book, shop.com to see the latest publications whose 222 00:12:34,829 --> 00:12:39,600 exciting ideas include overcoming the extrovert ideal in our schools, 223 00:12:40,079 --> 00:12:43,500 creating bottom-up transformation that promotes buy-in from all educators. 224 00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:46,680 And improving formal and informal continuous learning 225 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:47,970 opportunities for teachers. 226 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,690 These books used by educators of all roles across north America and 227 00:12:51,690 --> 00:12:55,770 worldwide to amplify fresh, engaging voices with practical strategies 228 00:12:55,770 --> 00:12:59,550 to create transformative change, learn more in our show notes. 229 00:13:00,690 --> 00:13:02,280 All right, so let's talk about the class. 230 00:13:03,074 --> 00:13:03,435 Amber Dembowski: Yeah. 231 00:13:03,465 --> 00:13:04,005 Sure. 232 00:13:04,005 --> 00:13:07,365 So actually this is where most of the teachers will fall. 233 00:13:07,365 --> 00:13:12,225 So about 40% of teachers would be considered classics and it's not 234 00:13:12,225 --> 00:13:15,375 a bad place to be at all because these teachers, they come to work 235 00:13:15,975 --> 00:13:17,385 and they give their best efforts. 236 00:13:17,925 --> 00:13:20,655 And on average, they're about 60% developed. 237 00:13:20,985 --> 00:13:24,225 So they do what they know, but building capacity for this 238 00:13:24,225 --> 00:13:26,204 group is extremely important. 239 00:13:26,204 --> 00:13:30,885 So making time to provide feedback to them absolutely needs to be a priority. 240 00:13:31,535 --> 00:13:34,895 Uh, they're generally motivated to grow and change. 241 00:13:35,345 --> 00:13:37,625 They sometimes function as if there's just one, right. 242 00:13:37,655 --> 00:13:38,405 One right. 243 00:13:38,405 --> 00:13:39,545 Way of doing things. 244 00:13:40,115 --> 00:13:43,805 It's not necessarily in a stubborn way, but they just want to make sure 245 00:13:43,805 --> 00:13:45,455 it's perfect or that it's just right. 246 00:13:45,815 --> 00:13:50,855 But this represents about 40% of your teaching staff 247 00:13:50,885 --> 00:13:51,545 Jethro Jones: generally. 248 00:13:52,235 --> 00:13:52,535 Yeah. 249 00:13:52,535 --> 00:13:57,275 I've experienced with this group of teachers where they're doing it that 250 00:13:57,275 --> 00:13:58,475 way, because it's worked for them. 251 00:13:59,235 --> 00:14:06,165 And there's no sense in changing or growing because it's been working and they 252 00:14:06,165 --> 00:14:09,855 are, like you said, great teachers who are working hard, doing the best they can. 253 00:14:10,275 --> 00:14:14,204 And you know, they, in my experience need just a little 254 00:14:14,204 --> 00:14:15,704 bit of a push, just a little. 255 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:18,150 Encouragement support. 256 00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:23,040 You know, I, I came into a, uh, in one of my schools that I was at this last year, 257 00:14:23,310 --> 00:14:28,470 they hadn't had a leader who had really been focused on them for many years. 258 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,720 And so when I came in, the thing that I heard the most often from these classic 259 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,230 teachers, and this is really how it was, they were like, oh, well, we just 260 00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:39,630 haven't had supervision for so many years. 261 00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:41,040 We've just been doing our own thing. 262 00:14:41,370 --> 00:14:43,300 And so it's really nice to have somebody. 263 00:14:44,175 --> 00:14:44,895 Here's the vision. 264 00:14:44,895 --> 00:14:45,855 This is what we're doing. 265 00:14:46,305 --> 00:14:51,495 And what's amazing is that everybody loves to be led by someone and to 266 00:14:51,495 --> 00:14:53,205 be pushed and developed and grown. 267 00:14:53,475 --> 00:14:58,455 We actually enjoy that as human beings and often in education, we make it 268 00:14:58,455 --> 00:15:02,535 seem like teachers hate that and they don't hate that, but they got a, they 269 00:15:02,535 --> 00:15:07,125 got another person cares about them as human beings and that they are willing 270 00:15:07,125 --> 00:15:09,675 to understand where they're at first. 271 00:15:10,155 --> 00:15:13,185 And so not knowing anything about the homeschool situation. 272 00:15:13,875 --> 00:15:18,225 When I came in, I said, tell me what I need to understand to help me learn it. 273 00:15:18,585 --> 00:15:21,375 And then they would say these things and I'd say, okay, I don't 274 00:15:21,375 --> 00:15:22,545 understand why you're doing that. 275 00:15:22,845 --> 00:15:26,475 And then they'd say after me asking a bunch, they'd be like, actually, we don't 276 00:15:26,475 --> 00:15:28,035 understand why we're doing DD or either. 277 00:15:28,035 --> 00:15:29,385 It's just what we've always done. 278 00:15:29,925 --> 00:15:30,735 I said, okay. 279 00:15:30,735 --> 00:15:32,505 So are you willing to like, change that? 280 00:15:32,565 --> 00:15:35,175 And they're like, well, yeah, if there's something better and I said, well, 281 00:15:35,175 --> 00:15:36,465 here's five things that are better. 282 00:15:36,845 --> 00:15:40,515 And they'd say, oh yeah, well, let's do B because that one sounds like 283 00:15:40,965 --> 00:15:42,225 it'd be the easiest to implement. 284 00:15:43,305 --> 00:15:43,635 Great. 285 00:15:43,635 --> 00:15:44,205 Let's do it. 286 00:15:44,715 --> 00:15:45,975 So yeah. 287 00:15:46,185 --> 00:15:47,145 Amber Dembowski: It's all about the trust. 288 00:15:47,175 --> 00:15:47,655 Isn't it? 289 00:15:48,405 --> 00:15:49,335 Jethro Jones: Yeah, totally. 290 00:15:49,665 --> 00:15:52,125 So let's talk about the in-term amateurs. 291 00:15:52,755 --> 00:15:52,875 Oh 292 00:15:53,235 --> 00:15:53,595 Amber Dembowski: yes. 293 00:15:53,625 --> 00:15:54,945 The interim amateurs. 294 00:15:54,975 --> 00:15:58,645 So this could potentially represent about 20% of. 295 00:15:59,954 --> 00:16:05,204 This group is really underperforming based off of what you know of the 296 00:16:05,204 --> 00:16:09,405 teacher, but what makes it interim is it's more than likely temporary. 297 00:16:09,795 --> 00:16:11,235 It may be because they're new. 298 00:16:11,564 --> 00:16:14,265 And if that's the case, you want to provide a lot of feedback to build 299 00:16:14,265 --> 00:16:18,885 their capacity, or maybe like something personal is going on in their life. 300 00:16:18,944 --> 00:16:20,594 That's making work difficult. 301 00:16:21,194 --> 00:16:25,125 And in that situation, you'll just want to provide support on a personal level. 302 00:16:25,775 --> 00:16:27,845 Jethro Jones: Yeah, these interim amateurs. 303 00:16:27,875 --> 00:16:32,225 I love that phrase because they're not there the whole time. 304 00:16:32,315 --> 00:16:37,235 And, uh, I remember working with a teacher who was, who was in that situation. 305 00:16:37,655 --> 00:16:41,135 And I was like, as soon as you get through the hump, you're going to be. 306 00:16:41,855 --> 00:16:44,315 So just push through and it's going to be all right. 307 00:16:44,735 --> 00:16:48,575 You're going to get some bad evaluations because a lot of things you're doing 308 00:16:48,575 --> 00:16:51,755 are not great, but it's okay because eventually you're going to get there. 309 00:16:52,055 --> 00:16:55,475 And this teacher, like once she finally hit our stride and we understood 310 00:16:55,475 --> 00:16:58,655 it, she was like, oh, now I get it. 311 00:17:00,245 --> 00:17:02,615 So, so fun to see that growth. 312 00:17:06,534 --> 00:17:10,165 Amber Dembowski: Well, and then finally, there's the side liners and here 313 00:17:10,165 --> 00:17:12,385 is where the mistake is often made. 314 00:17:12,595 --> 00:17:17,665 So that the side liners usually represent again about 20% or less of your teachers. 315 00:17:18,234 --> 00:17:23,395 And unfortunately they have a low level of positive impact on student learning. 316 00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:28,405 Yeah, we often, this is the mistake it's been most of our time with. 317 00:17:29,610 --> 00:17:33,600 Uh, the side liners are those who, you know, you've been providing the 318 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,980 training and the feedback, and yet they still consistently underperform. 319 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,350 They don't appear engaged and they're maybe quote, unquote, lacking the talent 320 00:17:43,649 --> 00:17:47,970 that it takes to be, uh, you know, a productive member of your teacher team. 321 00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:52,645 So once I've determined that someone's assigned liner, Don't get me wrong. 322 00:17:52,675 --> 00:17:56,935 I start every one, the classic in my mind when I'm providing feedback. 323 00:17:57,415 --> 00:18:00,925 But over time, if they've proven to me that they're a sideliner, 324 00:18:01,345 --> 00:18:04,795 I usually just start having crucial conversations with them. 325 00:18:05,305 --> 00:18:09,595 And so the feedback is much different and the crucial conversations 326 00:18:10,195 --> 00:18:14,635 usually are questions asking them, you know, are you happy at work 327 00:18:14,995 --> 00:18:16,855 or do you feel successful at work? 328 00:18:17,530 --> 00:18:21,370 Um, it may even be asking them if they feel there might be a better fit. 329 00:18:21,820 --> 00:18:23,800 Sometimes it's even, I noticed statements. 330 00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:26,470 So it's almost calling them out in a way. 331 00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:30,940 I, you know, I've noticed you don't stand at your door to greet students, even 332 00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:34,900 after I've asked you to several times, what's getting in the way, like those are 333 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:40,780 notice statements, but what's important here is I don't let them consume my time. 334 00:18:41,465 --> 00:18:43,565 'cause, I don't want to put my energy here. 335 00:18:43,625 --> 00:18:47,915 I want to place my energy on things that I want to see more of. 336 00:18:48,485 --> 00:18:53,675 And that's going to be from the teachers who are ready to do and be better every 337 00:18:53,675 --> 00:18:54,065 Jethro Jones: day. 338 00:18:54,785 --> 00:18:56,555 Yeah, I think that's so important. 339 00:18:56,615 --> 00:19:00,055 And sometimes the reason why people are side liners is because. 340 00:19:00,975 --> 00:19:03,135 They're just not a good fit for your school. 341 00:19:03,405 --> 00:19:08,145 And they just can't, they just can't bring themselves to be effective there. 342 00:19:08,145 --> 00:19:10,695 And that doesn't mean that they can't be effective someplace else. 343 00:19:11,205 --> 00:19:15,105 And it's really important to make that distinction because it's not always. 344 00:19:15,825 --> 00:19:20,505 Clear, you know, sometimes you think, well, maybe it's just not the right fit 345 00:19:20,565 --> 00:19:25,005 when in reality they're they just don't have the skills to be a teacher and 346 00:19:25,005 --> 00:19:26,625 you've gotta be able to discern that. 347 00:19:27,075 --> 00:19:30,855 And so one, one situation where I did do that was when. 348 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:36,580 I had a teacher who, you know, she just could not be successful in my 349 00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:39,580 system and it was too too much for her. 350 00:19:39,580 --> 00:19:42,970 And, uh, it wasn't structured the way that she needed to be 351 00:19:42,970 --> 00:19:44,320 structured, to be successful. 352 00:19:44,590 --> 00:19:47,680 And she was teaching in a content area that wasn't her content area, 353 00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:50,919 but she was qualified in, you know, so there was that awkwardness. 354 00:19:51,340 --> 00:19:55,000 And so, you know, I talked with her and I said, look, I think 355 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:55,780 that you're a great human right. 356 00:19:56,745 --> 00:20:01,185 And unfortunately you don't have what it takes to be in our school, but that 357 00:20:01,185 --> 00:20:02,655 doesn't mean that you're a bad teacher. 358 00:20:02,865 --> 00:20:05,745 You just, aren't going to fit into what we're trying to do. 359 00:20:06,344 --> 00:20:11,084 If you go down to elementary school where you'll be with the same kids all 360 00:20:11,084 --> 00:20:14,685 day long, you'll be able to take the time to develop those relationships 361 00:20:14,685 --> 00:20:16,365 that you love developing with kids. 362 00:20:16,905 --> 00:20:20,804 That will probably be a much better situation for you. 363 00:20:21,860 --> 00:20:22,850 And she was hurt. 364 00:20:22,910 --> 00:20:23,630 She was offended. 365 00:20:23,630 --> 00:20:27,410 She cried, it was super uncomfortable and awkward for the rest of the year. 366 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,460 But I was able to confidently say when she applied at an elementary position, 367 00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:34,820 I was able to confidently say she will be a good teacher at your school. 368 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,760 And sure enough, she went there and totally flourished 369 00:20:37,850 --> 00:20:39,170 and was able to do well. 370 00:20:39,470 --> 00:20:43,880 And if I would have like tried to fire her or get her out of the profession, 371 00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:49,460 I would have been doing those kids a disservice, but I was doing a service 372 00:20:49,460 --> 00:20:53,030 to the kids at my school because she wasn't going to be able to work out with. 373 00:20:53,774 --> 00:20:54,284 Right. 374 00:20:54,435 --> 00:20:54,764 Amber Dembowski: Right. 375 00:20:54,764 --> 00:20:58,574 And regardless of where the teachers fall within the spectrum 376 00:20:58,574 --> 00:21:02,445 of employees, I, I want everyone to be clear, like they are on your 377 00:21:02,445 --> 00:21:04,094 team, you work with them every day. 378 00:21:04,094 --> 00:21:08,264 So they deserve your respect, your appreciation and your love. 379 00:21:08,774 --> 00:21:12,314 There's just multiple reasons why these labels can be helpful. 380 00:21:12,764 --> 00:21:17,294 One reason is because it helps us identify how we can support them. 381 00:21:17,655 --> 00:21:21,705 And then the other is to help us reflect on what kind of leader. 382 00:21:22,450 --> 00:21:25,270 We want to be for them and how we should prioritize our 383 00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:25,720 Jethro Jones: time. 384 00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:27,070 Yeah. 385 00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:28,840 And this is, this is so important. 386 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,570 I'm so glad you brought that up because the way that we interact 387 00:21:31,570 --> 00:21:34,630 with them is absolutely vital. 388 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,580 And so knowing, knowing that you have a sideliner liner and being able to say. 389 00:21:40,350 --> 00:21:44,639 Here's where it's not working and here's what a next step can be. 390 00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:46,680 That is just so important. 391 00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:52,590 And too often, I hear principals talking about how we got to get this person out. 392 00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:53,280 She's no good. 393 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,170 He's no good, whatever the case may be. 394 00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:59,340 And that's not fair to that person who is on your team 395 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:00,720 currently and is a human being. 396 00:22:01,110 --> 00:22:04,020 You've got to be honest and forthright with them. 397 00:22:04,410 --> 00:22:04,650 And. 398 00:22:05,255 --> 00:22:07,025 You know, and work through that. 399 00:22:07,085 --> 00:22:12,785 And every single year I've had somebody like that where it's not a good 400 00:22:12,785 --> 00:22:15,395 fit for, for a variety of reasons. 401 00:22:15,485 --> 00:22:18,635 They're always different for whoever it is, but you've got to be able 402 00:22:18,635 --> 00:22:21,955 to say like, this is not working and we've got to find a different. 403 00:22:23,010 --> 00:22:23,490 For sure. 404 00:22:24,660 --> 00:22:27,240 Thank you to our valued partner, John KA educational. 405 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,290 If you are a leader, looking to make transformative change by providing 406 00:22:31,290 --> 00:22:33,870 yourself and your teachers with professional development, that is 407 00:22:33,870 --> 00:22:38,160 research-based in rigorous yet easy to digest and full of practical strategies. 408 00:22:38,610 --> 00:22:41,220 Check out the latest publications from John Katz. 409 00:22:41,610 --> 00:22:45,960 Visit us dot John cat bookshop.com to find information or learn 410 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,070 more on our show notes.