Jethro Jones: Welcome to transformative principle where you
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I'm your host Jethro Jones.
You can find me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
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Welcome to transformative principle.
This is episode 337, and I am excited to be chatting with Amber
Demboski, who is a principal of two schools like me right now.
And that is exciting, actually, not right now anymore, because.
As of this month, I am now a free agent out there doing my thing.
So I'm excited about that.
And Amber, welcome to transformative principle.
Thanks so much.
I'm happy to be here, man.
I am happy to talk with you as someone who is juggling multiple schools
and serving principals as well.
I know how challenging that can be and that's what you are doing.
So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, your work
in schools and your work supporting.
Sure.
Amber Dembowski: Well, you know, I've worked in many different
facets of education and I think that's one thing that has really
built me up throughout the years.
So years ago, I started as a teacher, a paraprofessional or a teacher aid.
Then I was a substitute teacher and then a classroom teacher and I
evolved into an instructional coach.
I worked as a district trainer.
I was also an instructor at a university.
And then I moved into principalship and did some consultants work on the side.
I continue to do that.
And then I was asked to be the principal of a second building.
So like you mentioned, I'm the principal of two elementary buildings.
The second building, I was asked to be principal there because it was the
lowest performing school in the district.
The teachers were feeling pretty beat down.
And the districts gave me the charge to kind of go in and build that
culture up and increase that teaching and learning within that building.
So throughout all of these experiences, I have gained a lot
of understanding about how school.
And more importantly, teachers' work.
And I have met so many people who have influenced me through all of these
experiences that have really impacted who I am today and what I believe in.
Jethro Jones: It's very interesting that they would send you to a
low-performing school as a second school, not to put your whole focus there.
What are the challenges with having a poorly performing school?
Be your second school and not the only one you focus on.
You know,
Amber Dembowski: the biggest challenge has been that I was with one school
for three years prior to that.
And so they were really in a different place than my second school.
When I was brought on, I bring the staff together for professional
learning for our staff meetings, for our PLCs and collaborations.
What remains difficult is both buildings are just in a different
place because of my time with.
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
So with your first school, you've been there for three years,
establish some routines, policies, procedures, culture, all that stuff.
And then you got to jump into the second one.
And we all know from experience that if you are leading a school and
you know, you do certain things to get to a certain point and then you
don't have to redo all those things.
All the time, because everybody understands.
That's how things work.
That's part of building a school culture.
And so now you got to bring a second school on and then you do
professional development together.
That sounds like a really challenging, challenging thing to put together.
So let's talk about some of the mistakes that instructional meetings.
And not meters leaders, excuse me.
Some of the common mistakes that instructional leaders make, what
are the pitfalls that you see in instructional leaders doing okay, for
Amber Dembowski: sure.
And actually these are all mistakes that I've made myself.
I recently published an article for AFCD about the four common
mistakes and instructional leaders make and how to avoid them.
And.
These were all mistakes that I made made, and I continue to make mistakes every day.
So there's nothing wrong with going out and making mistakes.
I don't want anyone to walk away thinking that, um, because of that, how's
that saying go, if you're not making mistakes, that means you're not trying.
Right.
And some of the mistakes that I'm going to focus on, I think we'll settle really well
with the instructional leaders out there.
I think they'll agree with it.
And then some of them, I think will challenge.
Some of their thinking.
The first one that I had mentioned in the article is that we're focusing too
much on student outcomes and I think most people would agree with that statement.
Once they hear me talk a little bit more about it.
I believe that if a heavy load of your time, when it comes to school improvement
is looking at student performance, then you're focusing on the wrong thing.
I am a strong believer that data's information.
I'm a total data guru, so don't get me wrong.
It becomes a guide for us, but if we spend most of our time doing only that,
then I think we're missing the boat.
Most of our time, it needs to be spent on asking ourselves why.
So why are we seeing the results we're seeing?
And then the real dirty work begins by adjusting what's happening in the class.
I think most instructional leaders would agree with me on that.
Whether that's what's actually happening, that's not always the case.
Sometimes most of our time for PLCs is spent doing the data digs, but
then what do we need to do next?
Um, most of our time should be spent on building that teacher capacity and
ensuring that the instructional practices happening in the classroom are in response
to the information that the data provides.
And so that's where that first mistake comes in, I think would settle or
settle with most people's thinking.
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
You know, we've really changed how we focus in education on different things.
And focusing on outcomes has seemed to just ratchet up even
more and more as time goes on.
And I think that that's a really good point that we need to step back and figure
out why things are happening, how they are and not make everything about that.
Outcome and recognizing that kids are multifaceted, that they have
lives outside of school and the.
What happens in school is not everything to them as it shouldn't
be everything to us either.
What's the second mistake that people often make instructional
leaders specifically.
Amber Dembowski: Well, and this one in general can sometimes
challenge people's thinking.
Um, the second mistake is just staying out of the teacher's way.
People will say, I'm sure you've heard this.
You know, that teacher's doing a great job.
I just let her do her
Jethro Jones: thing.
Amber Dembowski: Right.
Me too.
So essentially we work with a variety of teachers.
So in my consultant work, I talk about the four types of teachers and I've named
them based on their traits and performance levels, um, just for simplicity sake.
So there's the notables, the classics that interim amateurs and the site liners.
And I'll go into that a little bit more.
You're in a minute, but the teachers can work throughout
these stages throughout the day.
So just because there are notable when they're teaching math
doesn't mean they're notable.
When they're teaching reading, it really depends on their experience
and their expertise, their motivation, and even their self-reflection with
whatever the task is that they're, you know, And although I don't
believe there's a perfect formula.
Um, so working with teachers, um, I do think that understanding some of
the fundamentals of human behavior does allow us to build the capacity
and their capacity for success.
Um, so if we just start by talking about the notables and the notables,
those are the peak performers.
Those are the ones that were saying, Hey, they're doing a great job,
was to stay out of the way they generally represent about 20% of our.
And if we think about it, their capacity is endless because they continue growing.
And in all honesty, we're going to get the most bang for our
buck with this group of teachers.
On a scale from one to 10, they give us a 10 on each day, but if they're
not fully engaged and developed through the feedback that we provide them, then
they're 10 turns into a seven tomorrow.
So often what I see happen is leaders with.
Leave this group of teachers alone, because they always think this
group of employees has it figured out which they do, but they always
remain 50% of developed because they're always wanting to learn.
So leaving them alone is not how to build their capacity and we
need to really unpack the feedback for them, just like we would.
Any other teacher.
Yeah,
Jethro Jones: let me just jump in there because I think that this is
an important piece that I've talked about many times on this podcast.
The idea of it's not your job as the principal to put a lid on anybody.
And, and I've said that numerous times as I'm bringing it up, because
I think the notables, when they're doing their thing, then yes, you
let them go and do their thing.
But that doesn't mean that you let them go and don't ever give them feedback
or talk with them or, or help them get.
But you continue that process of challenging and pushing them.
So quick story about that.
I have a librarian or had a librarian who was a phenomenal, phenomenal.
And she was a great teacher of adults and of kids did wonderful things
and I would constantly push her to do better than she was doing at
whatever it was that she was doing.
Not in a like, you know, let me go find something that you're
doing wrong because you're.
Really amazing.
I'm just trying to nitpick, you know, but like, okay, you've, you've reached
this plateau, what's next for you and how are you going to do that?
And so at the recent technology conference in our state this year, she
presented three or four times in a row in one day and was just like, it was
super stressful for her, but she was so grateful that I had pushed her to apply
to present two years ago that she was now comfortable taking on that challenge.
Was sharing what she was doing with others so that she could share
her notable illness out with other teachers and librarians as well.
And, and that's where I was just going to
Amber Dembowski: say a lot of times, that's what it's about
with the notables is encouraging them to increase their influence.
That's really what it's about because when you're teaching others, you
continue to grow as a person and you're learning more as you're teaching.
Jethro Jones: Yup.
Totally true.
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All right, so let's talk about the class.
Amber Dembowski: Yeah.
Sure.
So actually this is where most of the teachers will fall.
So about 40% of teachers would be considered classics and it's not
a bad place to be at all because these teachers, they come to work
and they give their best efforts.
And on average, they're about 60% developed.
So they do what they know, but building capacity for this
group is extremely important.
So making time to provide feedback to them absolutely needs to be a priority.
Uh, they're generally motivated to grow and change.
They sometimes function as if there's just one, right.
One right.
Way of doing things.
It's not necessarily in a stubborn way, but they just want to make sure
it's perfect or that it's just right.
But this represents about 40% of your teaching staff
Jethro Jones: generally.
Yeah.
I've experienced with this group of teachers where they're doing it that
way, because it's worked for them.
And there's no sense in changing or growing because it's been working and they
are, like you said, great teachers who are working hard, doing the best they can.
And you know, they, in my experience need just a little
bit of a push, just a little.
Encouragement support.
You know, I, I came into a, uh, in one of my schools that I was at this last year,
they hadn't had a leader who had really been focused on them for many years.
And so when I came in, the thing that I heard the most often from these classic
teachers, and this is really how it was, they were like, oh, well, we just
haven't had supervision for so many years.
We've just been doing our own thing.
And so it's really nice to have somebody.
Here's the vision.
This is what we're doing.
And what's amazing is that everybody loves to be led by someone and to
be pushed and developed and grown.
We actually enjoy that as human beings and often in education, we make it
seem like teachers hate that and they don't hate that, but they got a, they
got another person cares about them as human beings and that they are willing
to understand where they're at first.
And so not knowing anything about the homeschool situation.
When I came in, I said, tell me what I need to understand to help me learn it.
And then they would say these things and I'd say, okay, I don't
understand why you're doing that.
And then they'd say after me asking a bunch, they'd be like, actually, we don't
understand why we're doing DD or either.
It's just what we've always done.
I said, okay.
So are you willing to like, change that?
And they're like, well, yeah, if there's something better and I said, well,
here's five things that are better.
And they'd say, oh yeah, well, let's do B because that one sounds like
it'd be the easiest to implement.
Great.
Let's do it.
So yeah.
Amber Dembowski: It's all about the trust.
Isn't it?
Jethro Jones: Yeah, totally.
So let's talk about the in-term amateurs.
Oh
Amber Dembowski: yes.
The interim amateurs.
So this could potentially represent about 20% of.
This group is really underperforming based off of what you know of the
teacher, but what makes it interim is it's more than likely temporary.
It may be because they're new.
And if that's the case, you want to provide a lot of feedback to build
their capacity, or maybe like something personal is going on in their life.
That's making work difficult.
And in that situation, you'll just want to provide support on a personal level.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, these interim amateurs.
I love that phrase because they're not there the whole time.
And, uh, I remember working with a teacher who was, who was in that situation.
And I was like, as soon as you get through the hump, you're going to be.
So just push through and it's going to be all right.
You're going to get some bad evaluations because a lot of things you're doing
are not great, but it's okay because eventually you're going to get there.
And this teacher, like once she finally hit our stride and we understood
it, she was like, oh, now I get it.
So, so fun to see that growth.
Amber Dembowski: Well, and then finally, there's the side liners and here
is where the mistake is often made.
So that the side liners usually represent again about 20% or less of your teachers.
And unfortunately they have a low level of positive impact on student learning.
Yeah, we often, this is the mistake it's been most of our time with.
Uh, the side liners are those who, you know, you've been providing the
training and the feedback, and yet they still consistently underperform.
They don't appear engaged and they're maybe quote, unquote, lacking the talent
that it takes to be, uh, you know, a productive member of your teacher team.
So once I've determined that someone's assigned liner, Don't get me wrong.
I start every one, the classic in my mind when I'm providing feedback.
But over time, if they've proven to me that they're a sideliner,
I usually just start having crucial conversations with them.
And so the feedback is much different and the crucial conversations
usually are questions asking them, you know, are you happy at work
or do you feel successful at work?
Um, it may even be asking them if they feel there might be a better fit.
Sometimes it's even, I noticed statements.
So it's almost calling them out in a way.
I, you know, I've noticed you don't stand at your door to greet students, even
after I've asked you to several times, what's getting in the way, like those are
notice statements, but what's important here is I don't let them consume my time.
'cause, I don't want to put my energy here.
I want to place my energy on things that I want to see more of.
And that's going to be from the teachers who are ready to do and be better every
Jethro Jones: day.
Yeah, I think that's so important.
And sometimes the reason why people are side liners is because.
They're just not a good fit for your school.
And they just can't, they just can't bring themselves to be effective there.
And that doesn't mean that they can't be effective someplace else.
And it's really important to make that distinction because it's not always.
Clear, you know, sometimes you think, well, maybe it's just not the right fit
when in reality they're they just don't have the skills to be a teacher and
you've gotta be able to discern that.
And so one, one situation where I did do that was when.
I had a teacher who, you know, she just could not be successful in my
system and it was too too much for her.
And, uh, it wasn't structured the way that she needed to be
structured, to be successful.
And she was teaching in a content area that wasn't her content area,
but she was qualified in, you know, so there was that awkwardness.
And so, you know, I talked with her and I said, look, I think
that you're a great human right.
And unfortunately you don't have what it takes to be in our school, but that
doesn't mean that you're a bad teacher.
You just, aren't going to fit into what we're trying to do.
If you go down to elementary school where you'll be with the same kids all
day long, you'll be able to take the time to develop those relationships
that you love developing with kids.
That will probably be a much better situation for you.
And she was hurt.
She was offended.
She cried, it was super uncomfortable and awkward for the rest of the year.
But I was able to confidently say when she applied at an elementary position,
I was able to confidently say she will be a good teacher at your school.
And sure enough, she went there and totally flourished
and was able to do well.
And if I would have like tried to fire her or get her out of the profession,
I would have been doing those kids a disservice, but I was doing a service
to the kids at my school because she wasn't going to be able to work out with.
Right.
Amber Dembowski: Right.
And regardless of where the teachers fall within the spectrum
of employees, I, I want everyone to be clear, like they are on your
team, you work with them every day.
So they deserve your respect, your appreciation and your love.
There's just multiple reasons why these labels can be helpful.
One reason is because it helps us identify how we can support them.
And then the other is to help us reflect on what kind of leader.
We want to be for them and how we should prioritize our
Jethro Jones: time.
Yeah.
And this is, this is so important.
I'm so glad you brought that up because the way that we interact
with them is absolutely vital.
And so knowing, knowing that you have a sideliner liner and being able to say.
Here's where it's not working and here's what a next step can be.
That is just so important.
And too often, I hear principals talking about how we got to get this person out.
She's no good.
He's no good, whatever the case may be.
And that's not fair to that person who is on your team
currently and is a human being.
You've got to be honest and forthright with them.
And.
You know, and work through that.
And every single year I've had somebody like that where it's not a good
fit for, for a variety of reasons.
They're always different for whoever it is, but you've got to be able
to say like, this is not working and we've got to find a different.
For sure.
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