{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":6.29,"endTime":10.1,"body":"Welcome to Demystifying Instructional Design, a podcast where I interview"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":10.13,"endTime":13.91,"body":"various instructional designers to figure out what instructional designers do."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":14.33,"endTime":16.19,"body":"I'm Rebecca Hogue, your podcast host."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":16.85,"endTime":20.99,"body":"If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider subscribing or leaving"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":20.99,"endTime":23.93,"body":"a comment on the show notes blog post and consider"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":23.93,"endTime":26.9,"body":"helping to support the podcast with a donation to my"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":26.9,"endTime":27.8,"body":"Patreon account."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":28.61,"endTime":32.57,"body":"Welcome Janet and Darlesa to Demystifying Instructional Design."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":32.599,"endTime":37.52,"body":"This is fun because we're talking to instructional designers that"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":37.52,"endTime":39.35,"body":"are in very different contexts."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":39.35,"endTime":42.2,"body":"And so in this case, I'll ask"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":42.2,"endTime":44.12,"body":"each of them to introduce themselves"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":44.21,"endTime":45.08,"body":"to get us started."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":45.23,"endTime":46.53,"body":"Why don't you start us off, Janet?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":47.12,"endTime":47.89,"body":"Hi, everyone."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":47.9,"endTime":49.25,"body":"Thanks so much for having me Rebecca."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":49.79,"endTime":54.56,"body":"I am a learning architect and video producer, working freelance"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":54.56,"endTime":56.9,"body":"right now, but I have a lot of experience with"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":56.9,"endTime":60.65,"body":"K-12 and higher education instructional design,"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":60.68,"endTime":62.51,"body":"looking forward to talking about that."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":63.14,"endTime":64.22,"body":"Hi everybody."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":64.22,"endTime":67.85,"body":"I'm Darlesa Cahoon and I work for the Port of"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":67.85,"endTime":72.71,"body":"Seattle at the SCA Airport in Seattle, Washington, or near"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":72.71,"endTime":73.67,"body":"Seattle, Washington."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":74.0,"endTime":77.15,"body":"And so I'm in corporate training and my focus is"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":77.15,"endTime":80.12,"body":"actually now, which is a little different than when I"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":80.12,"endTime":83.51,"body":"talked to you before Rebecca, it's very focused on customer"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":83.51,"endTime":85.28,"body":"service, learning and performance."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":85.73,"endTime":89.33,"body":"And so I do a variety of things around that,"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":89.33,"endTime":92.63,"body":"including a lot of employee engagement and things, but I"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":92.63,"endTime":96.29,"body":"have always worked in the corporate learning space."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":97.04,"endTime":97.67,"body":"Thank you both."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":97.7,"endTime":100.58,"body":"The first question I wanted to ask each of you"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":100.58,"endTime":103.61,"body":"to just get this conversation started, I figured we would"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":103.64,"endTime":107.63,"body":"talk a little bit about the different phases of the"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":107.63,"endTime":110.21,"body":"ADDIE model, for lack of a better choice."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":110.99,"endTime":115.58,"body":"And so, analysis in your context, what does analysis look like?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":117.33,"endTime":118.66,"body":"Well, I guess I can go first."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":118.67,"endTime":123.8,"body":"For me, I really have to start with analyzing where"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":123.87,"endTime":126.39,"body":"faculty are when I start working with them."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":126.42,"endTime":130.49,"body":"My job was always to get a relationship going the"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":130.49,"endTime":133.85,"body":"minute I met somebody and basically analyze where they are"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":133.85,"endTime":136.7,"body":"and what their comfort level is with designing and whether"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":136.7,"endTime":141.74,"body":"they've ever worked to bring their content online and also"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":141.76,"endTime":145.4,"body":"analyze what sort of feedback we received about this course"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":145.43,"endTime":148.16,"body":"based on students' perspective."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":148.34,"endTime":151.34,"body":"And putting those students at the forefront is something that"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":151.34,"endTime":153.86,"body":"we're always trying to do when we analyze the situation"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":153.87,"endTime":154.7,"body":"before going in."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":155.09,"endTime":157.22,"body":"In my environments, I guess it does"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":157.22,"endTime":159.41,"body":"It really does depend on what you're being asked to"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":159.41,"endTime":162.74,"body":"do, because certainly there are times when I'm helping others"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":162.74,"endTime":166.31,"body":"to design some sort of learning experience similar to what"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":166.31,"endTime":167.06,"body":"you're talking about Janet."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":167.06,"endTime":169.73,"body":"So that would probably be kind of similar to"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":169.73,"endTime":170.66,"body":"what you're talking about."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":171.02,"endTime":175.22,"body":"But generally I am building, designing a training program or"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":175.22,"endTime":178.07,"body":"experience myself for another department."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":178.49,"endTime":182.48,"body":"So we certainly focus, as you said too, just focus"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":182.48,"endTime":186.74,"body":"on the learner and what is the learners comfortableness"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":186.74,"endTime":188.27,"body":"with technology?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":188.9,"endTime":190.56,"body":"How much time do they have?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":190.58,"endTime":193.58,"body":"Obviously, the questions go on and on, but I think"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":193.58,"endTime":196.04,"body":"the most basic thing that I always like to ask"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":196.04,"endTime":199.49,"body":"people when they say they need a training class, what"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":199.49,"endTime":201.92,"body":"is it that you really want your employees to know"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":201.92,"endTime":203.63,"body":"or do differently than they do today?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":203.93,"endTime":206.15,"body":"And everything grows out of that."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":207.2,"endTime":211.43,"body":"What kinds of things are you looking at when you're"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":211.43,"endTime":212.87,"body":"doing the analysis?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":213.41,"endTime":216.29,"body":"In our environment, I work with such a variety of"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":216.29,"endTime":220.4,"body":"people because I work potentially with every airport employee."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":220.4,"endTime":223.4,"body":"So that could be anybody from an executive at an"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":223.4,"endTime":227.18,"body":"airline to a baggage handler to a person working at"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":227.18,"endTime":229.01,"body":"the Starbucks in the airport."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":229.37,"endTime":232.07,"body":"I always start with what is the learner's environment?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":232.31,"endTime":235.64,"body":"How are they going to be able to consume this"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":236.27,"endTime":238.64,"body":"experience that we're designing for them that we need to"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":238.64,"endTime":239.09,"body":"design?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":239.12,"endTime":240.36,"body":"Do they have computers?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":240.38,"endTime":241.97,"body":"Are they the kind of people that are sitting at"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":241.97,"endTime":242.54,"body":"computers?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":242.84,"endTime":244.43,"body":"Do they have their own cell phone?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":244.43,"endTime":245.36,"body":"And can we use that?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":245.36,"endTime":247.58,"body":"Sometimes that's not even possible."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":247.58,"endTime":251.0,"body":"If we want to do something that's virtual or self-paced"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":251.0,"endTime":254.27,"body":"online or if not, how much of their time can"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":254.27,"endTime":254.63,"body":"we get?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":254.63,"endTime":257.359,"body":"And that is always a big challenge for us, is"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":257.359,"endTime":260.299,"body":"trying to figure out if people are working front lines"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":260.63,"endTime":261.62,"body":"doing something."},{"speaker":"Speaker 1","startTime":262.25,"endTime":264.98,"body":"They're the hardest ones to pull away, but they're the"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":264.98,"endTime":268.1,"body":"ones that need to just come away from their work"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":268.1,"endTime":271.22,"body":"in order to get together and try to learn something"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":271.22,"endTime":271.55,"body":"new."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":272.39,"endTime":275.54,"body":"I think that's really interesting, and I'm looking forward to"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":275.54,"endTime":278.48,"body":"hearing Janet's context too, because I think this is where"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":278.48,"endTime":280.01,"body":"something is very different."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":280.61,"endTime":281.33,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":281.34,"endTime":283.76,"body":"And when you talk about the learner, I really love"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":283.76,"endTime":286.55,"body":"that the time factor is huge."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":286.55,"endTime":290.66,"body":"And in my context, I'm working with subject matter experts"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":290.99,"endTime":294.5,"body":"and so I have to try and get them on board"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":294.5,"endTime":298.52,"body":"with me and actually train them so that we're both"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":298.55,"endTime":301.37,"body":"having a combined vision for what could happen in the"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":301.37,"endTime":302.21,"body":"course."},{"speaker":"Speaker 1","startTime":302.59,"endTime":304.94,"body":"And when we talk about a learner, we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":305.21,"endTime":308.0,"body":"who's going to be taking the course that we are"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":308.0,"endTime":309.2,"body":"creating together."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":309.2,"endTime":312.35,"body":"When we think about the learner, it's the students and"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":312.35,"endTime":313.85,"body":"what is it that they need?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":313.85,"endTime":317.0,"body":"They usually need just in time learning."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":317.21,"endTime":320.12,"body":"They need to access the content on their mobile phones."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":320.12,"endTime":323.93,"body":"We need to think about what sort of video content"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":323.93,"endTime":327.74,"body":"would help them feel connected to the class, but also"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":327.74,"endTime":329.78,"body":"bring in the people who don't have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":329.78,"endTime":332.78,"body":"time to take the courses, who maybe have two and"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":332.78,"endTime":335.0,"body":"three jobs on the side and they're just trying to"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":335.03,"endTime":335.66,"body":"level up."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":335.81,"endTime":339.56,"body":"So one of my main jobs is always to get"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":339.92,"endTime":342.59,"body":"the subject matter expert on side with me."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":342.89,"endTime":345.98,"body":"And many times they are there against their will and"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":345.98,"endTime":347.96,"body":"they don't want to be there doing this."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":347.96,"endTime":350.0,"body":"They don't believe in online learning."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":350.0,"endTime":352.31,"body":"They don't think it can be as engaging."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":352.7,"endTime":358.7,"body":"And so it's always every now and then convincing the"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":358.7,"endTime":362.18,"body":"SME that this can be a great thing and can"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":362.18,"endTime":365.24,"body":"translate their passion for the content in a way that"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":365.24,"endTime":366.11,"body":"is effective."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":366.99,"endTime":367.8,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":367.83,"endTime":370.2,"body":"I mean, that's so interesting to me because I think"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":370.2,"endTime":373.23,"body":"it's funny and frustrating and all of the above."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":374.52,"endTime":376.77,"body":"But I always more and more as time goes on,"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":376.77,"endTime":378.21,"body":"I get more of a kick out of it, but"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":378.69,"endTime":381.3,"body":"it cracks me up how people just have so many"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":381.39,"endTime":384.39,"body":"prejudices against virtual or online learning."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":384.39,"endTime":387.31,"body":"Oh, even after we've lived through what we've lived through."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":387.54,"endTime":388.29,"body":"Yeah, it's funny."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":388.29,"endTime":390.9,"body":"I was working with, it was probably at the beginning"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":390.9,"endTime":391.5,"body":"of the pandemic,"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":391.5,"endTime":395.19,"body":"I was working with a group of HR people that"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":395.19,"endTime":399.3,"body":"wanted to move their leadership training, their precious leadership training,"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":399.87,"endTime":402.48,"body":"to an online, or they were being forced to do"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":402.48,"endTime":404.55,"body":"it now that they didn't want to do it and"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":404.55,"endTime":406.53,"body":"they were saying, This can't be done, this can't be"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":406.53,"endTime":407.01,"body":"done."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":407.01,"endTime":409.95,"body":"And I said, Yeah, maybe it can't, but let's talk"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":409.95,"endTime":410.48,"body":"through it."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":410.49,"endTime":412.38,"body":"And so they would come up with, We do this"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":412.38,"endTime":414.63,"body":"activity... that can't be virtual."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":414.63,"endTime":416.67,"body":"And then I'm like, actually, you could do it like this."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":416.67,"endTime":417.87,"body":"What about this and this?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":417.87,"endTime":420.81,"body":"And we just addressed all their different activities and found"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":420.81,"endTime":422.43,"body":"out, yeah, you could do that."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":422.82,"endTime":426.0,"body":"It's really, you know, it's not the same, but we"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":426.0,"endTime":429.84,"body":"can get at the same eventual learning objective and hopefully"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":429.87,"endTime":431.37,"body":"get the same thing out of it in the end."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":431.37,"endTime":432.75,"body":"So that was kind of interesting."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":433.62,"endTime":436.84,"body":"That whole, \"it can't be done\" is so interesting, and"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":436.84,"endTime":439.95,"body":"a lot of my workshops start with, \"oh, we can't"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":439.95,"endTime":441.75,"body":"do this, this is impossible\"."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":442.5,"endTime":445.08,"body":"And I say, I found myself saying this actually last"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":445.08,"endTime":445.41,"body":"week."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":445.41,"endTime":449.61,"body":"I said, let's be, let's team up and be the"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":449.61,"endTime":451.74,"body":"keepers of positive language."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":453.03,"endTime":455.91,"body":"And they all laughed, they were telling me that it"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":455.91,"endTime":457.38,"body":"was this incredible..."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":457.38,"endTime":458.94,"body":"it would be a nightmare to do this"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":458.94,"endTime":460.77,"body":"was the actual verbiage."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":460.77,"endTime":463.71,"body":"And I said, so let's a let's never say that again."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":463.71,"endTime":466.98,"body":"But it's funny, working with higher ed faculty."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":466.98,"endTime":470.34,"body":"They are the experts in their content, but they're not"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":470.34,"endTime":473.46,"body":"the experts in maybe delivering it because I think many"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":473.46,"endTime":476.4,"body":"of us just assume that if you're a subject matter"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":476.4,"endTime":477.75,"body":"expert, you can teach it."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":478.17,"endTime":481.74,"body":"But really that's not the case in many places."},{"speaker":"Speaker 1","startTime":481.74,"endTime":485.85,"body":"So everybody comes in to their conversations with me, the"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":485.86,"endTime":486.84,"body":"different levels."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":486.84,"endTime":489.32,"body":"I've had people holding their phone up to their ear"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":489.33,"endTime":490.68,"body":"during a Zoom call."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":491.19,"endTime":494.7,"body":"I just see this enormous ear in my video finder"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":495.0,"endTime":496.71,"body":"and I say, okay, just straighten your arm out."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":497.16,"endTime":498.9,"body":"Sometimes that's where we start."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":498.9,"endTime":502.17,"body":"And other times somebody has been designing their course forever."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":502.17,"endTime":503.79,"body":"It's just need alignment."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":504.24,"endTime":506.52,"body":"And that's the piece that's pretty invisible."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":506.52,"endTime":510.51,"body":"I find many times in higher ed, I find alignment"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":510.51,"endTime":513.599,"body":"is a conversation that nobody really knows how to have."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":514.65,"endTime":516.69,"body":"Can you clarify what you mean by alignment?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":517.74,"endTime":520.53,"body":"One thing leads to another and they're all connected."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":520.77,"endTime":525.09,"body":"So, for instance, the program level objectives are there."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":525.57,"endTime":530.13,"body":"Then you have your course level objectives, the module level"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":530.13,"endTime":531.01,"body":"objectives."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":531.03,"endTime":535.59,"body":"Then we have the learning materials, learning activities and assessments"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":535.86,"endTime":539.76,"body":"and all of those things need to align or in"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":539.76,"endTime":543.57,"body":"some cases be exactly the same."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":543.84,"endTime":545.48,"body":"You need to see the wording throughout,"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":546.36,"endTime":549.04,"body":"and nobody starts that way."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":549.09,"endTime":551.22,"body":"In higher ed, we really just say, okay, what is"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":551.22,"endTime":552.19,"body":"it that I want to teach?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":552.21,"endTime":553.29,"body":"I'm going to go in there and do it."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":553.68,"endTime":556.59,"body":"And many times what we're talking about has nothing to"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":556.59,"endTime":558.09,"body":"do with the course objectives."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":558.1,"endTime":560.67,"body":"It's just a funny story or it's something that everybody"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":560.67,"endTime":561.51,"body":"related to."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":561.93,"endTime":565.35,"body":"But that connecting tissue is missing."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":566.16,"endTime":570.33,"body":"I think it's very interesting how we started this conversation,"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":570.33,"endTime":574.08,"body":"talking about how different our environments are, but certainly that"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":574.59,"endTime":578.25,"body":"whole aspect is very similar in a corporate environment where,"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":578.61,"endTime":581.7,"body":"you know, you need to be aligning your objectives to"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":582.18,"endTime":585.63,"body":"not only the department objectives and the division objectives and"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":585.96,"endTime":588.48,"body":"eventually the whole organization's objectives."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":588.48,"endTime":592.11,"body":"So I can certainly see that kind of disconnect happening"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":592.11,"endTime":595.29,"body":"all the time too."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":595.29,"endTime":596.3,"body":"And the purpose for it,and everybody says, what?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":596.31,"endTime":597.51,"body":"why does this matter?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":597.51,"endTime":601.08,"body":"Because students need to actually understand why they're doing what"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":601.08,"endTime":604.59,"body":"they're doing and how that does relate to objectives in"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":604.59,"endTime":606.57,"body":"the course and the reason why they're taking it to"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":606.57,"endTime":607.13,"body":"begin with."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":608.19,"endTime":610.08,"body":"I always like to tell people I don't even know"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":610.08,"endTime":612.84,"body":"who coined the phrase, but I like to talk about"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":612.84,"endTime":614.22,"body":"the curse of knowledge."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":615.12,"endTime":617.19,"body":"And that's what I tell my airfield"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":618.03,"endTime":621.84,"body":"people who've been working in airports for 30 years"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":621.84,"endTime":624.42,"body":"that sometimes I deal with and they do know everything"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":624.42,"endTime":627.84,"body":"there is to know about an airport, but they have"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":627.84,"endTime":629.13,"body":"that curse of knowledge."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":629.13,"endTime":633.72,"body":"I say it is impossible for you to remember what"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":633.72,"endTime":636.21,"body":"it was like before you knew what you knew."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":636.21,"endTime":639.27,"body":"And so let me be the beginner and help you."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":640.31,"endTime":642.23,"body":"Figure out how to teach people who are new at"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":642.23,"endTime":642.65,"body":"this."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":643.22,"endTime":644.04,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":644.04,"endTime":645.59,"body":"I love putting it like that."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":645.59,"endTime":648.74,"body":"And how many assumptions people make."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":648.74,"endTime":651.74,"body":"Like just I assume students will have the critical literacy"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":651.74,"endTime":654.44,"body":"skills to to read this content."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":654.44,"endTime":655.81,"body":"I'm getting them."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":655.82,"endTime":660.47,"body":"That assumption really is a roadblock for embedding the learning"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":660.47,"endTime":662.39,"body":"I think, especially at an airport."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":662.66,"endTime":666.23,"body":"I have a relative who is a pilot and he"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":666.23,"endTime":668.57,"body":"just makes a lot of assumptions about what people know"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":668.57,"endTime":670.67,"body":"and don't know about an airport and how to get"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":670.67,"endTime":671.21,"body":"around."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":671.3,"endTime":673.7,"body":"Do you find that when you're working with employees?"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":674.93,"endTime":675.2,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":675.2,"endTime":678.53,"body":"One thing I think is interesting is, certainly I spend"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":678.53,"endTime":680.75,"body":"a lot of my time and this probably doesn't"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":680.75,"endTime":682.13,"body":"even come into play for you,"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":682.55,"endTime":686.63,"body":"and a lot of my time recently on marketing"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":686.63,"endTime":689.66,"body":"my training, trying to get people into my classes and"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":689.66,"endTime":692.69,"body":"I think probably motivation is a little bit different in"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":692.69,"endTime":695.72,"body":"a corporate setting where you're always trying to figure out"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":695.99,"endTime":698.3,"body":"how to motivate people to change their behavior."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":698.33,"endTime":702.32,"body":"That marketing piece is huge where I am too, because"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":702.77,"endTime":704.96,"body":"nobody wants to ask for help."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":705.29,"endTime":708.8,"body":"And so my team at the college level, like we're"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":708.8,"endTime":711.68,"body":"here to help, but nobody wants to ask."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":712.28,"endTime":713.42,"body":"So we have this idea."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":713.42,"endTime":714.89,"body":"we were like, all right, maybe we can make some"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":714.89,"endTime":715.61,"body":"commercials."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":715.88,"endTime":716.69,"body":"So that's what I did."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":716.69,"endTime":718.79,"body":"I made these commercials, and the one we did was"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":718.79,"endTime":722.6,"body":"called Teacher Things, and we used that sitcom."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":722.8,"endTime":723.56,"body":"it's not a sitcom"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":723.56,"endTime":725.87,"body":"It's like a, what would you call that? Anyway,"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":725.87,"endTime":729.2,"body":"series, The Stranger Things, as our theme."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":729.62,"endTime":732.5,"body":"And basically it was like all these teachers saying, of"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":732.5,"endTime":734.99,"body":"course, I'm going to do a lecture for 55 minutes"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":734.99,"endTime":736.49,"body":"and why don't they care?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":737.81,"endTime":740.12,"body":"And why are all these questions coming through?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":740.12,"endTime":742.46,"body":"And in the end, we were all together going, these"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":742.46,"endTime":745.41,"body":"are the stranger things that happen in online learning, but"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":745.43,"endTime":746.36,"body":"we're here to help."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":746.36,"endTime":749.78,"body":"And we sent it out as this little experiment just"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":749.78,"endTime":751.16,"body":"to be funny and silly."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":751.16,"endTime":754.43,"body":"And we got more response from that than we ever"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":754.43,"endTime":757.37,"body":"did from any email blast or any sort of like"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":757.85,"endTime":760.79,"body":"sign or anything we've tried in the past."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":760.79,"endTime":765.32,"body":"That commercial made us human to everybody and made them"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":765.32,"endTime":767.84,"body":"kind of giggle and they wanted to work with us."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":767.84,"endTime":772.97,"body":"And marketing is especially -- it's important in our work"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":772.97,"endTime":776.15,"body":"because teachers, as I said, faculty really they don't want"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":776.15,"endTime":778.49,"body":"to ask for help because they're supposed to know everything."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":779.24,"endTime":780.38,"body":"I love that!"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":780.62,"endTime":785.68,"body":"This is interesting because I see it as Darlesa"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":785.69,"endTime":793.25,"body":"marketing content and Janet marketing people, like marketing the instructional"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":793.25,"endTime":794.78,"body":"designers themselves."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":795.53,"endTime":796.94,"body":"Does that sort of align?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":797.57,"endTime":798.95,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":798.98,"endTime":802.46,"body":"Sure. Sometimes I am in that similar sort of situation, like"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":802.46,"endTime":805.31,"body":"with the leadership training that I was talking about, that"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":805.31,"endTime":807.44,"body":"was probably more like what you do, Janet, that there"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":807.44,"endTime":809.39,"body":"are times when I do that, but we have such"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":809.39,"endTime":810.29,"body":"a small team."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":810.29,"endTime":813.71,"body":"I love to help people, but I usually, I guess"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":813.71,"endTime":816.41,"body":"I've kind of gotten over the years a little bit"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":816.41,"endTime":820.34,"body":"jaded by trying to help people that don't want help."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":820.58,"endTime":822.5,"body":"I'm sure you've been in that situation."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":822.5,"endTime":825.8,"body":"It's very frustrating and you kind of...I feel like"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":825.8,"endTime":827.21,"body":"now we have a small team."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":827.21,"endTime":828.62,"body":"We can't get to everybody."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":828.62,"endTime":831.68,"body":"So I try to just... I'm not going to try"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":831.68,"endTime":833.06,"body":"to convince anyone."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":833.6,"endTime":834.26,"body":"And it's funny,"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":834.29,"endTime":835.88,"body":"you know I had a couple, I have a couple"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":835.88,"endTime":838.28,"body":"of friends, at least, well more than a couple that"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":838.28,"endTime":841.61,"body":"are teachers that were K through 12 and also college"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":841.61,"endTime":846.2,"body":"professors that I reached out to when COVID hit and"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":846.2,"endTime":849.62,"body":"said, I do a lot of this online learning, online"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":849.62,"endTime":851.51,"body":"experiences of all kinds for a living."},{"speaker":"Speaker 1","startTime":851.51,"endTime":853.43,"body":"And if you ever have any questions, if you are"},{"speaker":"Speaker 1","startTime":853.43,"endTime":857.06,"body":"struggling, feel free to call me and ask for help."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":857.06,"endTime":859.37,"body":"And I'm more than happy to just walk through something"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":859.37,"endTime":861.11,"body":"with you and help you envision how that could be"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":861.11,"endTime":862.1,"body":"done virtually."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":862.58,"endTime":865.34,"body":"And nope, I did not get any calls."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":865.34,"endTime":867.59,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":868.41,"endTime":871.88,"body":"Aw, I would have called you"},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":871.88,"endTime":872.69,"body":"and I would have called you."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":872.69,"endTime":875.6,"body":"I find, like in my role, I've had to work."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":875.6,"endTime":878.03,"body":"You have to work with these people who don't want"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":878.03,"endTime":878.57,"body":"to do it."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":878.57,"endTime":880.8,"body":"And I had somebody just flat out tell me,"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":880.82,"endTime":881.21,"body":"I'm not."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":881.6,"endTime":883.88,"body":"He said, I can't even say what he said."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":883.88,"endTime":886.43,"body":"It was horrible what he said about students."},{"speaker":"Speaker 1","startTime":886.82,"endTime":887.51,"body":"I can't say it."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":888.53,"endTime":889.67,"body":"It'll hurt my heart."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":889.67,"endTime":891.38,"body":"I looked at him and I was like, All right,"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":891.38,"endTime":891.85,"body":"fine."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":891.86,"endTime":893.72,"body":"He wanted to do quizzes."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":893.72,"endTime":896.69,"body":"That's what he wanted andI had to try and explain"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":896.69,"endTime":901.31,"body":"to him that quizzes are not always going to get"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":901.31,"endTime":902.84,"body":"at the learning, like you can..."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":902.93,"endTime":906.14,"body":"it's so easy to jeopardize your data."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":906.83,"endTime":908.15,"body":"It's so easy to do that."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":908.54,"endTime":911.0,"body":"And so I gave him, I said, okay, I'm going"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":911.0,"endTime":912.08,"body":"to show you a picture."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":912.08,"endTime":914.48,"body":"So I showed him this picture of a girl who"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":914.56,"endTime":915.98,"body":"was like lying on her side."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":915.98,"endTime":918.62,"body":"She had bright blue hair, she had sunglasses on."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":918.65,"endTime":919.7,"body":"I said, I'm going to show you this."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":919.7,"endTime":920.87,"body":"There's a quiz when I'm done."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":920.87,"endTime":921.29,"body":"Ready?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":921.53,"endTime":922.88,"body":"So I show him this picture."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":923.15,"endTime":925.04,"body":"And I took it away and I said, okay, are you"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":925.04,"endTime":925.88,"body":"ready for the quiz?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":925.88,"endTime":927.17,"body":"He said, yeah. I go..."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":927.74,"endTime":930.5,"body":"What is the weather in that picture?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":931.42,"endTime":932.47,"body":"And he goes, well, sunny."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":933.42,"endTime":934.35,"body":"I said okay."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":934.5,"endTime":935.31,"body":"Why do you say that?"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":935.43,"endTime":938.94,"body":"Well, she's wearing sunglasses, so actually it's cloudy."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":939.09,"endTime":940.53,"body":"And so I show him the picture again."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":940.53,"endTime":943.59,"body":"And you can see a reflection in her sunglasses of"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":943.59,"endTime":944.28,"body":"clouds."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":945.03,"endTime":947.4,"body":"And I said, you failed the quiz."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":947.76,"endTime":948.64,"body":"He said that's not fair."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":948.66,"endTime":949.68,"body":"I said, exactly."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":950.01,"endTime":951.33,"body":"You didn't fail the quiz."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":951.36,"endTime":954.6,"body":"I failed it because I didn't tell you what to"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":954.6,"endTime":955.47,"body":"look for."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":955.98,"endTime":957.72,"body":"I didn't frame the quiz."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":957.87,"endTime":959.52,"body":"So when you put a quiz out there, it's so"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":959.52,"endTime":962.1,"body":"easy for students to fail."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":962.58,"endTime":964.55,"body":"But sometimes it's our fault."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":964.56,"endTime":967.41,"body":"Putting somebody in a position is what I have to"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":967.41,"endTime":967.65,"body":"do."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":967.65,"endTime":970.53,"body":"A lot of the times I have to almost put"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":970.53,"endTime":974.97,"body":"somebody in an experience that is, it can shift their"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":974.97,"endTime":975.63,"body":"mindset."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":975.96,"endTime":977.99,"body":"And that's the thing I do really well."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":978.0,"endTime":979.71,"body":"There are things in life I don't do very well,"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":979.89,"endTime":981.99,"body":"but that is one thing, like coming up with those"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":981.99,"endTime":985.59,"body":"creative ideas for how to get people to see my"},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":985.59,"endTime":989.58,"body":"point without telling them what my point is."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":990.87,"endTime":991.86,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Darlesa Cahoon","startTime":991.93,"endTime":993.39,"body":"That's so clever."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":993.72,"endTime":994.35,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":994.38,"endTime":995.67,"body":"That's what I like to do."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":995.67,"endTime":997.29,"body":"But it doesn't work all the time."},{"speaker":"Janet Lee","startTime":997.5,"endTime":998.07,"body":"I'll tell you."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":998.76,"endTime":999.69,"body":"There's more to come."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":999.75,"endTime":1002.6,"body":"Stay tuned for part two of my interview with Lisa"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":1002.6,"endTime":1003.17,"body":"and Janet."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":1003.74,"endTime":1007.25,"body":"You've been listening to Demystifying Instructional Design, a podcast where"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":1007.25,"endTime":1009.98,"body":"I interview instructional designers about what they do."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":1010.58,"endTime":1012.56,"body":"I'm Rebecca Hogue, your podcast host."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":1013.16,"endTime":1016.37,"body":"Show notes are posted as a blog post on Demystifying"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":1016.37,"endTime":1017.75,"body":"Instructional Design.com."},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":1018.2,"endTime":1020.6,"body":"If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe or leave a"},{"speaker":"Rebecca Hogue","startTime":1020.6,"endTime":1022.49,"body":"comment in the show Notes blog post."}]}