Trey: hello and welcome back to another episode, MC you need to know a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel cinematic universe and everything that you need to know.
I'm Trey,
Jude: how are you doing Trey?
Trey: Well, dude, I'm excited because today we're joined by a newcomer to
the show, whether it's writing reviews for comic watch.com or hopping onto
the mic for the captain life podcast.
Our guest is well versed in speaking TV and film.
We're so delighted to welcome Sean to the pod.
Welcome Sean.
Sean: Welcome.
Hey, thanks for having me on guys.
I'm really excited.
Yeah.
Jude: Hey, it's, you know what we've you
got two weeks, one of those kind of weeks.
Trey: I know you have that effect on people.
It seems like you're well-practiced.
Jude: Well, I say it's, it's, it's exciting because you know, we've been
interacting and talking with you on Twitter and gosh, I guess Instagram
as well, and this back and forth interaction went all through Hawkeye.
And I think at least maybe a little bit before.
And so it's fun to finally, you know, to, to get this in-person
well, virtual in-person I guess, uh, the way to talk about these things.
Yeah,
Sean: same here.
And I really enjoy interacting with you all.
And I think the fun thing about what we do as podcasters is that we get
to interact with the community that goes beyond just our direct circle of
friends who geek out over these things.
And I'll be honest.
Like I don't have a whole lot of friends that I know personally that
geek out over the same stuff I do.
And so podcasting really gave me the opportunity to connect with Kevin on that
front and then with you all and with so many other people, to be able to just have
people to talk about with these things, when you get excited about it, because
it's, you know, there's nothing more sad.
I feel like when you want to talk to somebody, you just don't have
anybody like, you know, Right there with you that, that you could
just talk to me about this stuff.
So I really love the fact that podcasting has been able to do that for us.
So I'm so
Trey: glad the way you described that to too.
It was like the circle of friends, because I think the first time that
we got on each other's radar was, was like Jude said during the Hawkeye run.
And that's when we got in, touched with Ellie from shoot.
And she's the one who kind of like further cemented, like, oh, your Sean's great.
And at that put into motion, getting to work with, with you.
So
Sean: yeah.
Yeah, Nellie, Ellie's great to have I interact with her
all the time and I absolutely.
You know, love her podcast is she's just a joy to talk to you.
And we've had her on our side to talk about Eternals.
So yeah, it's it's um, I appreciate that.
That's nice to hear.
So thank
Trey: you.
Yeah.
Well, you know, speaking of your show, we did want to take some time here
at the top to spotlight your work.
You know, one of the things that always fascinates me is the story behind the
name of the project that people pick.
So I was wondering if you could walk our audience through what the
story is for the caption life, as well as what it is that you and
your co-host Kevin do on that show.
Yeah.
Sean: So, you know, the funny story is that.
Kevin.
And at the time James, we actually used to have a team of three people.
It was Kevin, James, and I were just following each other on Twitter, but we
never actually knew of each other until we started following each other on Twitter.
And one day we just, you know, we're interacting and replying to each
other and we were on Twitter and we were just like, You know, we should
just start a podcast about the things we enjoy with comics and everything.
I think what really got that conversation started was there was a
conversation about diversity in comics.
And we were just talking about how, you know, we were three white males
and we want to see more diversity in comics that we support that.
And we're just like, you know, gosh, it'd be such a great idea
to start a podcast around that.
And the three of us were like, yeah, let's just do that.
So we, we got together and our first year when we did that,
kind of did it like leisurely.
So we didn't really have a plan in terms of having a regular set schedule of like
what we were going to talk about or how often we're going to release episodes.
We're going to just try to put episodes out there whenever we could.
And then just talk about whatever we wanted to talk about.
And so when we first had our meeting to kind of figure out what we're
going to do with the podcast at first, we were thinking about.
Having something that's more related to comics and education, but then the more
we discuss it, the more we were just like, we didn't want to really pigeonhole
ourselves into such a specific niche because we also wanted to open it up
for like other conversations we might have or might want to have, you know?
And so sure enough, later on, you know, this is our third year, we've actually
opened it up a lot more to, um, not just comics, but things in pop culture.
So Kevin and I have a really deep seated love for Disney.
And so we there's been a couple episodes where we're talking about
just all things, Disney related.
We've had people on the show that's whether they are.
Comics creators or artists, or they're somehow connected to it,
or maybe even be adjacent to it.
So for example, we had somebody on the show named Jonathan Bell.
That's a cause player that, uh, his message or what he does as a
cause player is that he likes to spread positivity around the world.
And so he really became famous as being known as Seattle
Superman and came on our show.
It was just really fascinating to talk about what he had to say and, and, and
what he's hoping to do with that and how, you know, the character Superman
inspired him, not just to do that as a cosplay, but just also as a person.
And we've also had other people who, again, have not been.
Directly in the comics industry been been affected by it.
So we've had like a college professors come on and talk about how comics
actually had shaped and impacted societies throughout the ages and things like that.
And so, so really we've kind of developed this podcast to be something that gives
us an opportunity to talk about things that we're interested in and have
conversations with other people about those same topics, but also create a
platform where when people are doing really great work that have like a
really good message, we want to be like a megaphone for those people to be able to
share that message and to get that word out there and to support them in that.
So when we were first trying to come up with a name, like I said, we were thinking
about something in comics and education.
I think, um, Kevin had a really good name for it, but then when we decided that we
wanted to do something, that's a little bit more broader that has something to
do with comics, but maybe just something that's, you know, it doesn't have to be.
Completely around comics, but it's somehow connected to it
and kind of be broad enough.
That's where we kind of settled on the caption life because, you
know, we know that captions are something that's in comics with the
speech bubbles and things like that.
And that way always kind of brings it back to something that's comics related as much
as possible, but it's not honing in on a specific niece that keeps us locked in.
If we ever wanted to discuss something that may not be.
Comics, you know, directly, but it's somehow connected to it.
Like, you know, having people who, um, have been interested in like superheroes
or something that, um, is like Disney or universal or, or anything that is
kind of in or of that world in a sense.
So,
Trey: yeah.
That's fantastic.
Sean: Thank you.
Jude: Looking through and some of the episodes, just for me, one of the standout
episodes I truly enjoyed was a number.
I'm going to say the number, like, like, let me have them all
memorized what numbers they are.
Uh, the 45, a 45, where you had, uh, Matthew Smith on.
Um,
Sean: yes, he was, the college professor was talking
Jude: about, and that was so much fun to listen to.
I got so much out of that.
Uh, I think I haven't got the book yet.
He was talking about, but I definitely want to pick that up.
Sean: Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
That's and that's exactly what we've been trying to do is just get people on to kind
of, you know, be educational about that stuff, but also whatever message they have
just, you know, that's really interesting.
Uh, but I mean, that's exactly what we're going for is, you know, having a podcast
where we can bring in like different guests and talk about different topics
or different things that they might be experts on and things like that.
But I, I appreciate you saying that, you know, you really enjoyed
that episode cause we really enjoyed that one as well too.
And we felt like we learned a lot from that as well, too.
So.
Yeah.
And one of the things I didn't mention this before, but one of the things
that we've started to do with our podcasts being in our third year now
is that every time we have a guest on, we did this with, I think we started
with either David papers or Ebraheem Mustapha, but we started to do a game.
Whenever a guest comes on, we try to do like a fun little game that's centered
around what they're talking about.
And so every time we have a guest on, we try to do a game with our guests.
And Kevin does a fantastic job of coming up with some really fun creative games.
And what's funny is every game that we played with our
guests, somehow I keep winning.
And at some point I think our audience is going to be like, this is completely reg.
I assure you, it is not rigged.
I just keep getting lucky with this, but I, I, we keep hearing from our guests that
they really enjoy doing the games with us.
And that that's one of the reasons why we keep doing that.
We think that our listeners really enjoy playing along with
those games as well, to this.
Trey: Oh, that's fantastic.
I haven't had the opportunity of listening to an episode with a guest yet, but I
can't wait to see what that's like, and I also can't help, but you know, you
call it funny that you keep winning.
I wonder what it would be like from Kevin's perspective of what he would call
Sean: the and ask them about that.
Trey: Oh yeah, that's great.
But you know, another thing that we mentioned@theintroisthatyouwritereviewsforcomicwatch.com.
You recently just put one out for the new show.
Naomi.
Um, I was wondering if you could let us know what that is like in sitting
down to review in written form and whether or not prepping for a podcast
or a written review feeds into each other, or if it's different processes.
Sean: Yeah.
So, you know, when I first started writing for comic watch, I think back
in September, so I'm still relatively new to this, or maybe it was.
It was just an opportunity that came across that I was just like, I wanted to
do something a little bit more creative.
That's kind of outside a podcast.
So I'm a very creative person.
I like to come up with really creative things, especially in multimedia.
So, you know, in addition to be a podcast or also, you know, video editors, I
can, um, you know, take videos and throw them in premiere pro and, and
do some editing and stuff like that.
And, and I'm usually the one.
Um, creates a lot of our social media videos.
I haven't done a couple of them in a while or anything like that, but I'm the
one that usually puts them together and, and posts on our social media accounts.
And one of the things that I was interested in is, is I still want to
do something along these lines, but I thought writing would be just a really
good skill to have, because I know that no matter what kind of job or career
or interests you go into writing has always going to be a big part of that.
And writing, I feel like is something that.
I'm good at, but I want to kind of improve myself on that skill in
case I ever, you know, go down some sort of career where that might be
something that would come in handy.
And so I saw that comic watch was looking for people to
review TV and, and, um, films.
And so I applied and they took me on and I've really been learning a
lot in terms of how all that works.
Uh, with that being said, I'm still learning how to write a good review
just because, um, I, I kind of tend to write like what really interests me.
Um, but I'm trying to also, um, figure out like what people are really looking for.
Like, are people wanting to know, like, is the story good?
Or do they want to know like the technical aspects of the show or the film, like,
you know, the production value of the acting, the writing and things like that.
Um, and so part of it is trying to figure out like what.
Really are people looking for what helps them, um, and, and what really
drives that engagement with that.
Um, and another difficult thing is that we're kind of given a
task of writing a review within like 500 to a thousand words.
And I got to say like, there's been times like wrote a review
and then I did the word count.
I was like, oh my gosh, how did I write over like 2000 words?
Like, I was like, this, this is like, not nearly enough.
I was like, I hope I made 500.
Then I saw that number.
I was just like, what?
So it was really hard.
So it was really hard, like go back and like cut things out.
But I mean, you have to in order to kind of fit that parameters.
And so, um, I would say it does feed into that because I was reviewing the Hawkeye,
uh, episodes every week it was coming out.
So I was doing that for comic watch.
And as you all know, it was also creating a one-shot episode for our podcast.
I'm doing my own review for that.
And so there was a lot of overlay where as.
Highlighting points for, uh, the review article for comic watch.
I was also carrying that over to the podcast episode.
Um, but again, you kind of have to write it differently because the written word
is very different than the spoken word.
And so you kind of get the outline in the thought process a little bit, um,
and you do have to adjust it, um, to fit the medium as well, too, because
again, writing a review for comic Watts is very different than a podcast
when you have your own structure and all that, and, and you know, format.
And so the outline is something that kind of does carry over and you
can carry over some of the things that you've written, all that.
Um, but you do have to do a little bit of adjustment, but with that being
said, it's just a lot of great practice to kind of hone in on that skill.
And I think improves us.
Uh, podcasters as well too, because you know, we have the right show
notes and, you know, it's it, you know, podcasts is not just about, you
know, putting something out there.
You have to be on a lot of social media channels and you have to
know how to write good show notes.
And, you know, if you're really into SEL, you have to know
how to do that as well, too.
And so, um, I think writing, uh, reviews for comic Watts has
really helped with that as well.
So.
Jude: Oh, yeah, I can definitely see the connection between those
tray is the creative genius here.
Like he just is like, that's just what he does.
And he's so good at it.
Well, thank you
Sean: Trey.
If you're the one that do the videos, I got to say, I
really enjoy your guys' videos.
I think it's really high quality and it's really well done.
It's professional looking.
So yeah, it's really, I'm really impressed and I think it's great.
So definitely great work, um, doing that stuff.
So I really enjoy
Trey: it.
Oh, thank you so much.
Yeah, those, those have definitely been fun too.
Sean: Yeah.
Yeah, they're really good.
I really like them.
Yeah.
Thanks
Jude: a lot.
Yeah.
Saying thank you.
But again, Trey's, the board
Sean: comes in and takes all the credit, like you're welcome.
You know,
Trey: listen, I offset it by not sending him the Google outline for
Sean: a little bit of passive aggressive.
Trey: Oh man.
Well, seriously, all of that is fantastic.
And I really appreciate you taking the time to, to let our audience know, because
it's clear to see that a passion is the engine that drives your creative work.
And I think that really shines through man.
So yeah, I appreciate that.
Yeah.
So if you're interested, make sure that you're falling Sean at the Sean
Hoke on Twitter, as well as at caption life on both Twitter and Instagram.
And I said it earlier, but I want to make sure that people know
it is comic hyphen watch.com and all of these will be in the show.
With that being said, though, if you downloaded this episode, then
you know, we're going to be talking about our Hawkeye season one.
Wrap-up so this is going to be a chance for us to talk about the
series as a whole, uh, talk about the things we liked, the things we
didn't like as well as storylines that we feel have lingering threads.
So to do this, we are going to be talking spoilers, which
calls for the spoiler zone.
So you're going to hear an audio cue and on the other side, it'll be fair
game for all spoilers in the MCU.
We'll see.
On the other side
and we're back.
So, Sean, I mentioned this to you earlier when we were swamping DMS, but it, I
think this is the first time that we've had somebody on for the wrap-up episode.
And it just so happens that this is their favorite show of the Disney plus show.
So far.
So as I'm about to ask what you liked about Hawkeye overall, I am
genuinely excited to, to hear you follow your bliss in, in stating
what it is that you liked about
Sean: their show overall.
Yeah, definitely.
So, you know, just like what you said, this is my favorite Marvel
show that they produced so far in.
And I got to say like, it's really tough because all the shows, even
the ones that I wasn't a big fan of, um, all of them were really great.
And I think we're top tier in terms of production.
So even the ones that I was just like, you know, this is not my kind of.
I can't really look at it and say that it was a bad show necessarily, you know?
And so they're, so they're all really high quality shows, but I, for me
personally, Hawkeye has been my favorite one that they've created so far.
Um, for a lot of reasons I'm probably going to get into it.
So, uh, stop me at any point for like, you know, three hours in and
we're like, okay, we haven't gotten to our next point yet, so sorry.
Um, but you know, there's a lot of reasons why I enjoy the show and as
a comics fan, one of the main reasons why I really enjoyed the show, and this
has been one of my favorite is that it's primarily inspired by the, uh,
fractional Hollingsworth run called Hawkeye the saga Barton and Bishop.
Right.
And, uh, this one was really fascinating because I, I didn't read this until about
maybe two, three years ago when I was reading through this on Marvel unlimited.
And I can't remember why I decided to read, uh, This first issue.
And so I remember reading it, um, and it was like the first
issue that they had that run.
And I was never been somebody that's been too interested about Hawkeye.
Um, oh, now I remember actually by, by read somewhere that historically,
um, Hawkeye has been, uh, deaf or went deaf and hard of hearing.
And as you both probably know, um, I'm actually someone that
was born with a hearing loss.
So I was born with like, um, 25% loss in both ears.
And so when I heard about that, I was like, oh, that'd be really
cool to kind of, you know, see how they did that in the comics.
And so I read this issue and I, it was one of the few runs I
just could not stop breathing.
They like couldn't, you know, put it down.
So I, I was reading this on Marvel unlimited, so I couldn't really actually
put it down cause it was my tablet.
So I couldn't like swap out the next issue I had to hit read next this year.
Right.
So I wasn't physically actually putting anything away and swapping it
out, but like every time I got done with it, like I just kept going to
the next issue next issue, because it was just a really well-written story.
The art was fantastic, in my opinion, I think aha does a great job with it.
Um, but it was just a great story overall.
And then when I saw the trailer for the Hawkeye series, it was just like watching
your comic book, come to life because it was a lot of inspiration from that run.
And so, um, so that's one of the reasons why it's been my favorite.
Um, the other reasons, uh, as I mentioned before, is that I
am somebody that has hearing.
This show has great representation for those of the hard of hearing
and the deaf community, as well as people with disabilities, because we
saw that echo has a, as an amputee.
I think her right leg is amputated.
Yeah.
And what's interesting enough is that, um, the character echo and the comics
isn't amputee, she is deaf and she is a native American, just like the
actress, but the actress is amputee.
And I thought, what was great about the showrunners is that instead of
hiding that fact, they actually just wrote it in as part of her character.
And I think that was a great way to be able to have those conversations
and so representation, uh, for another community and be able to
give them screen time and to have a conversation as a community, as a whole
to talk about like what that means.
And, and the fact that, that wasn't something that held her back.
And she's not just, you know, identified by, you know, what
she's not able to do, but.
The fact that she's still able to, you know, kick Hawkeyes, but, you
know, it's just something that I think it was great to see on the screen.
Right.
Um, and as I mentioned, echoes native Americans.
So I, I, I can't remember if we had a lot of representation in the MCU
with native Americans, but, um, yeah.
And so I think this is probably one of the first ones that we have.
Um, and so we have great representation there.
Um, I could keep going, but if you want me to stop and pause,
Jude: I was just gonna jump in for a second and just say like,
one of my favorite scenes was when, uh, Kate Bishop broke into.
That goes house or apartment and the alarm went off and like, they didn't know, but
me as an audience member, I didn't know.
And we talked about this on our, on our episode review of this one,
but like, I didn't know either.
And just, and just kind of when it, when it came out or when, when they
realized, and it was like, it just showed kind of my own worldview and how they
were able to play into that, you know?
And just like, no one said no ones, the majority of the people aren't
going to realize that see alarm.
Right.
You know, cause that's just not what they're used to.
That's not what you're seeing.
Um, you know, and, and, and I love that, that they were able to play into that.
There, I love the way that they used the mix of not just sign
language, but the, the subtitles.
With the lip reading and when she looked away, it faded out like you just
like, you really got a sense of, of, or a glimpse maybe of that experience.
And that was just really phenomenal for
Sean: me.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And what I love about, um, all of that is that even shows they did
a great job of showing like just the diverse experiences with the
deaf and hard of hearing community, because Clint was not born deaf.
And so, you know, he had a hearing day because if he didn't have it, he was deaf.
Um, but I think what was interesting is that you saw he no new American sign
language, but not enough to have like a full conversation with echo without,
you know, help or anything like that.
And I think that's, you know, pretty accurate for someone
who, uh, was born with hearing and then became deaf later on.
Um, but you're right.
They did a great job of visually representing what.
Audio experience sounds like, and I got to say, I got to give a special
shout out to the audio engineering team who did this because they get a
phenomenal job of showing, uh, showing of audibly, um, giving that experience
to the audience members, what it's like to have a hearing aid and what it's
like to be deaf, because I think a lot of people assume that if you're deaf,
that means that you can't hear anything and that's not necessarily the case.
You can still get like vibration sounds.
So when you, when you see it from Maya's perspective, that's why the
audio never really cuts out completely.
You still feel or hear a little bit of a rumble or, or, um, you
know, murmur and things like that.
And that is a, a pretty accurate, uh, experience from what I understand.
Um, and then for someone who has a hearing aid, like I grew up
with hearing aids and so whenever.
Clint took the hearing aid out.
I was just like taking me back to second grade because that's exactly
what it sounded like when I was taking my hearing aid out, you know?
So they did a phenomenal job of representing that.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Jude: Yeah.
Trey: Yeah.
I definitely agree with you, you know, you keep coming back to this representation
and I can't agree more like the fact that.
It wasn't just like, Hey, let's get representatives from the different
communities and put them on screen.
They walked us through those experiences, like Jude was saying with the apartment
and the, and the alarms that went off with the flashing and leveraging our own
experiences to enhance the story that way.
So not only was it an educational for someone like me, I'll speak for me,
like of not having that worldview.
It added to the narrative by putting us in the shoes of people
like my, or people like Clint.
And one of the scenes, I think that stands out for me is that that scene in KB toys
where Maya is, is speak or communicating.
Clint.
And she is under the impression that he can sign.
And once she realizes he can't, that's when Kasi steps into interpret for her.
But that bridge of understanding it created in that moment of her
wanting to communicate that way.
I think it helped deepen who she is, because up until that point, it was,
oh, here's just your antagonist.
Oh, here's an interesting insight into her world and the way that she views things.
And it's just, they, like I said, just to circle back, it wasn't that they
were just representing people on screen.
They were really putting on a demonstration of what that life is like.
And I, I really enjoyed that as well.
Jude: I'd say on top of that, just that also the view that
she had of you see this as.
I don't, I don't know problem to be fixed as the right way to put it, but because,
because you've had the hearing, right.
You just assume I got to have this hearing and you're missing out on what
you can gain from it that she had to learn from a very young age, you know?
So prompting that conversation, I think was another, it was a really good ad.
Sean: Definitely.
Yeah.
Well, and I think, um, you know, what's interesting is.
When the terminals came out, they talk about Maccari, who's the actress
that plays her is death and how there was a rise in interest in learning
American sign language, because of that.
And I wonder how many people have also, you know, watching this show would like to
learn American sign language, uh, because this show, and I wouldn't be surprised if
it went up, um, because as well too, but what I really appreciate is that when I
was listening to Kazi during the signing, I wonder if the actor who played him a.
Has had experience or just got training on how to do it, but he did a really good
job of speaking like a, um, interpreter.
And what's interesting is that I don't think a lot of people realize that with
American sign language, it's not just knowing how to, um, sign with your hands.
But part of the communication is all body language communication.
So it's not just being able to sign things, but to also physically,
uh, express like some of those emotions and kind of like really
lean into that as well too.
And I think they did a really good job of kind of demonstrating that.
Um, you know, and again, I think I remember talking about this when
I thought it was odd at first that they had Clint learn, uh, American
sign language because usually people who, um, go deaf don't realize.
Learn American sign language, unless it's like really detrimental.
And it seemed like Clint was okay with having a hearing aid, um, and
being able to hear things fine.
Um, but I was, I was speculate.
I was like, I wonder if that's how they're going to tie it in with echo
because she's deaf in certain up.
Like that's how they make that tie and make that connection, but also
kind of show the very experiences of people who are hard of hearing and
part of the deaf community is that it's not all, you know, the same as,
so it's like even when you have that representation, being able to show that
diversity within that representation, I think is a really great one here.
Trey: So it's not necessarily just a binary thing, but a
spectrum of different experiences.
Sean: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
That's exactly right.
Trey: And, and, you know, you mentioned the, it's not just the signing with
American sign language, but that body language communication as well, uh,
you know, circling back to Alika clocks as Maya, you know, that was something
that was prominent every time that she had very emotional scenes, because the
death experience is part of her life.
It's an authentic part of who she is.
That level of, of communication in those scenes, I think hit that much harder,
like the way that she was able to, to show that, that look on her face.
Like it just, it underscored those scenes for me.
Sean: Right?
Oh yeah.
I agree.
Another
Jude: thing that I really liked about this was they, the way they worked the
action sequences, I'm a particularly, I'm thinking of like episode three, a
and that one sequence, but I thought all of them were really well choreographed.
Uh, just really well.
Well, I will say that the F the finale on the ice, I thought it was your kind
of your typical action, but other than that, the, the moving in the car, the
bridge, um, the action of Yulaina and Kate through the offices, then kind of
that tracking camera, all of those things were something that just the overall show.
I just really, really enjoyed how they were able to present
it, because it had that.
It makes me think of winter soldier, just that what the Russo brothers did there
with that, that handhelds kind of close up to the action to really make you feel it,
as opposed to this big wide shot, right?
Sean: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, th the action scenes were very, um, very cinematic and what you see in
the MCU, and just, like you said, it's.
Really wide a variety of the kinds of action sequences that you got from those.
And, and I agree with you.
I think, you know, episode three was fantastic with the whole scene when
they were fighting in the tracksuit mafia's, uh, you know, headquarters
and then, you know, going into the car chase and like, it just had a little
bit of everything for that action.
I absolutely loved that scene where, um, Clint Barton does that flip over the
stairwell and then he's on his side, but 60 arrow that hits, uh, Kasi and, and,
um, uh, cuts the restraints on Kate.
Because I remember when I first saw that scene, not, not fund
the episode, but we saw trailer.
You saw him like sideways.
I remember thinking like, that is really weird.
Like why do they have him sideways?
Because everything up to that point was just a standard, like 16, nine ratio
of like what you see in the movie.
But then it's just like, is that like an editing mistake?
And then when you saw that.
Oh, my God, it makes so much sense.
And that is awesome.
Yeah.
And I will say that the access sequence on the rooftop, like what
you were talking about, I think was really fantastic because it
integrated a lot of different things.
Cause they, you know, there's essentially two locations that they were shooting
from and they did a good job of like cutting back and forth between the two
different fights that were going on.
Um, the one complaint I did have about the accident scene was that there was one
point where, um, Maya Lopez was kind of like on her side and she kits, uh, she
kicks Kate and then somehow Kate goes flying over that, like opening in the
rooftops where you think she's going to like fall in there, but she ends up like
hitting the other side and fall safely.
But that was like a, a, almost like a seven foot.
Uh, distance from where she was kicked to where she landed.
And I was like that that's, this seems odd because Maya Lopez
does not have, you know, super strength or anything like that.
And from the way she kicked he's like that wouldn't make sense, like,
you know, physically or from the law of physics or anything like that.
Um, so that's the one thing I thought was a little bit odd, but other than that,
like all that, the whole entire scene, that tight fighting was really good too.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Jude: no, that's not to me too.
Cause the, the odd part of that was like the way she landed on her back and I
get, you want to have that dangerous.
You might fall.
Oh, you're pushing that a little for people that don't have a
super straight, sir, you know?
Right.
Yeah.
Sean: I will say this.
I was on another podcast with paperweight entertainment.
We were talking about that.
And someone actually suggested like maybe, uh, Maya had a, um, like a
hydraulic spring activated, um, um, uh, prosthetic that may be, you know,
kind of gives her like a little power, like a little boost to their kick.
I was like, now I could buy that.
I think that'd be really cool if that was cool.
Trey: You know what?
I'll go one step further, you know, I'm personally not this.
But I saw a lot of complaints on social media about like, oh
man, kingpin's way overpowered.
Now he was just flinging Cate all around that toy store.
What if we find out that it's neither of these, uh, characters
that are super strong, but Kate is just super light, like that's her.
Sean: Oh yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's interesting about the whole king pin fight scene
as well too, because I think everybody was comparing that scene to what you
saw the Netflix series of kingpin.
Right.
And in the Netflix series is really more realistic and it's not super powerful.
You know, people can actually achieve.
And kingpin was definitely, I mean, the fact that the man, you know, pretty
much goes on the scale from being blown up from a bomb underneath him
and is able to walk away from that.
Like, you know, that's not realistic at all.
And so I know there's been a lot of controversy of is this actually the same
king pen, even though Vincent Denofa has said, you know, they they're treating it
as it is, or is this really, you know, a variant king pin or even a scroll
and somebody has suggested as well too.
So yeah.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
I, I agree with you, Trey.
I think it's a very different one than we saw from, uh, for
the Netflix series for sure.
Um, but part of that is that, you know, the Netflix series is, is more, you
know, matured and darker and you can't really do that on a Disney channel show.
Right.
But, you know, I, I think the fact that, you know, it's a huge difference
in terms of like physical abilities.
Um, you know, it does kind of make you pause and think about, you know, is
this actually the same king pin or not?
So, yeah.
Trey: Yeah, man, I'm not going to lie.
You're not wrong.
But hearing you referred to this as Disney channel shows, like just
had me shaking in my seat of like, wow, like you just blew my brain.
Sean: Oh yeah.
Well, and that's why I was never worried about Clint be killed off.
Cause I know a lot of people were theorizing that that's
what's going to happen.
And some people were really convinced.
I know it's not going to happen for two reasons.
One, the last episode is happening right before Christmas and there,
and Disney is not in the business of killing off a beloved character.
Who's trying to get back home to his family right before Christmas
be known as Disney ruined Christmas for everybody in the MCU.
Right?
Jude: No, you're a hundred percent right on that, you know?
Well, it's, it's one of those things that.
You know, and I know we're still in that first section of the outline,
but, but it's, it's one of the things that I always go back to the
whole, just think about the story.
Think about how many episodes you have the story they're trying to tell.
And I know we'll get into it a little bit later, but that's, that's why I
was convinced that Laura Barton was an agent and stuff and, and Y how I
would now that road of like, okay, we probably won't see Fisk, like,
are we going to get somebody that big in the end and something like this?
And then that's kind of how I convinced myself, like, we're not going to get this,
you know, uh, you can just, you know, we have that media vocabulary built in and
you can kind of figure out some pieces.
Yeah.
Trey: You know, I want to circle back to something you said earlier to lead into
one of the things that I liked overall about Hawkeye, uh, do you mentioned.
Uh, well, you compared this to the winter soldier and what the Russo brothers
did as far as action goes, uh, to go out even further on that limb as well.
I think that the Hawkeye series for Clint did what winter
soldier did for captain America.
Uh, and I say that being a huge captain America.
I can admit he was a little cheesy in the first Avengers, but I still
liked him, but it wasn't until winter soldier that I think that people started
looking a little bit more like, oh, okay, this is, this is a really cool
character, you know, a little bit deeper than I was given credit for.
And that I think is what the Hawkeye series has done for.
Uh, you know, I mentioned it a little bit last week when we were doing our
episode with Tara, I have loved watching just the meta conversation go from people
being like, oh, I don't really care about Hawkeye to being able to name him.
Clint Barton.
Now I think that's always a very telling sign.
Whenever it comes to the fandom because I've seen it with black widow to Natasha,
uh, captain America, to Steve Rogers.
Like that's such a cool bridge to watch, uh, or such a cool gap to watch be bridge
in the fandoms and all that, just to lead into the thing that I liked overall.
You know, so often when we talk about these MCU shows the thing or
shows or movies, the thing we say is, oh, it's expanding the universe,
it's expanding this and that.
Like, it's, it's making it bigger.
The key to Hawkeye.
And the thing that I think I liked overall is it deepened the universe.
And I think that is something that is what I will continue to beat the drum
for of this series, because it gave us a deeper look into Clint's life, uh,
introduced, uh, a better civilian view of what it's like to be in this MCU world.
Uh, it introduced a more grounded.
Antagonists section with the track suit mafia, even if they were comical,
but it even built on that with people like Maya and Kasi and kingpin.
So the Hawk show, I don't think was telling a complex story, but for the
most part, it told it really well.
And I think that's what I really liked about this series.
Sean: Yeah, I really like how you said it deepened the universe.
Like I never thought about that way, but that's exactly what it did for a
forklift Barton and, and even, you know, introducing Kate Bishop, it does that
same thing where it doesn't, um, have that whole, there's a universal worldwide
threat that's happening, but there's like a street level, um, thing where, you know,
it's not going to impact like what happens in the movies necessarily, but it's still
a great story that you're going to want to watch it because it's done so well.
Like what you said, Trey.
And I think it gives a lot of great insight to Clinton,
especially what the aftermath of what he's experiencing everything.
Cause I don't think that, you know, with the exception of, uh, Wanda vision, you
know, we don't get a whole lot of insight in terms of how people are dealing with.
You know, that sort of loss that happen after end game.
And I think they just did a fantastic job of being able to tell that story,
especially through the eyes of Clint, who's struggling with, you know, what he
had to lose, you know, with his family.
Then he had to lose Nat in order to get his family back and how even like
this, um, you know, whoever wrote the school or they did a fantastic
job of when they were there talking about, or even alluding to Nat.
Cause there's a couple of times where they're not even talk about that,
but when he saw Kate Bishop like fall over the roof and you know, it
was clearly, he was thinking back to cause he was saying, no, no, no, no.
I was waiting for him to say like, not again, because I can imagine, he's
just thinking like, you know, this is what happened with Nat and as Kate's
laying there, they, uh, brought in the score from board mere underneath
it to kind of support and give you that cue of like, you know, this is.
It mostly is happening here.
And I think that, you know, that was just a really great way to tell that story.
And I think you're right trays that it deepens it and that these shows
are going to be a great way, gives them a great opportunity to kind
of dive deeper into things that we don't capture in the MCU as films.
Jude: Oh yeah.
And even like, Elaine, I loved Yulaina in this, but like that
small part where at the same thing, you got to know a little bit.
More about her.
Um, and so you had that, that depth.
I liked it it's very brief, but I liked, it was kind of weird, but going
back to New York, 2012 and seeing, and seeing the impact that it had on Kate
and, and that story and, and how that impacted her, how, what happened, um,
with her family dad died, what did her mom have to do with being a widower,
you know, um, and setting all that up.
Um, so even the wall, that was a small part of it.
I, I like that seeing those big events from other people's eyes.
Trey: The fact that, that it's the catalyst for Kate and
everything that she wants to do.
Like that's, I think that's huge.
And in plays into building that world as more believable.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and you know, they gave us the, I think that character,
the MCU with the most.
Depth of all Jack, um, you know, like just layer after layer.
Uh,
Sean: but at the end of the day, like Jack is what you see is what you get.
Like, we were just putting on like, what we think is actually happening, but yeah,
but Jack was just pretty much there.
There's no secrets behind that guy other than he was a really good fencer.
Right.
Like he wears his heart on his sleeve that way.
Yeah.
I loved it.
Yeah.
Trey: You know, I talked about it and I know this is going to sound weird
cause we're in the positive section of this outline, but you know, I
talked about how disappointed it was.
Cause I wanted more from that actor, but if we get more of Jack being the
petty superhero, he was when he was.
Uh, or Monda seventh about like, oh, you peed yourself at the Hamptons.
I wouldn't be so happy because that is such a funny angle of
just somebody who wants to be a superhero, but is so petty about it
Sean: too.
Like a seven year old of all
Jude: right.
Trey: Oh
Sean: no.
It's like no man, woman or child is saved from Jack and
Trey: it's so.
Again, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna call too much cause
it's a superhero show, right?
Like realism sometimes goes out the window.
But it is funny to me how I mentioned with hot guy, because his
choice of weapon is so grounded.
It ended up being the most horrifying because he was shooting people with arrows
and to watch them go flinging backwards, which is really brutal on that same
token, watching Jack go out there with a sword and just start swiping at people.
And then his final scene with like, oh, I got blood on my tie.
There is no layers to him, but to being a superhero and a swordsman.
Sean: Oh yeah.
Well indeed.
You know, the comic history of that character.
I do not,
Jude: I know that he's the swordsman.
Um, but I don't know a whole lot about him.
Sean: So, so in the comics.
Yes.
Just like what you said, Jude.
He is the swordsman, but he was actually the one that trained hot
guy, Clint Barton here in the comics.
And so, yeah.
And, and so I had a theory for while after episode three ended, when it
ended with, um, uh, Jack holding the Ronan sword up to his neck.
I had a theory because of the way that they showed Ronin, um,
killing off the tracks of mafia.
My, uh, you know, seeing her father get killed.
I had a theory that maybe.
Jack and Clinton knew each other because of that back history, but it turns out
they took a different approach with it.
But it's really interesting because that character does so up in the,
um, the saga of Barton and Bishop that talked about earlier and he's in
there for like one, maybe two issues.
But, um, but that's what I really love about the MCU is that they take
the characters that already exist in the comics and they might be
a hundred percent faithful to it.
I don't want to say a hundred percent cause everyone's going to have issues
with it, but like, you know, 90%, mostly faithful to it, or they might just
take a completely different approach.
I love what they did with Jack here because I think it makes sense.
I think he, he's a really interesting character in this way and I think
it, it fits really well for the overall story here as well too.
And I think it's just, it was really a delight to see him in this kind of, um,
relationship with, uh, with Kay and, and Clinton, everybody else as well too.
Jude: Oh, yeah.
Like they, they, they did a really good job of playing into God, the stereotypes
that we're used to seeing visually, I keep going back to that, that vocabulary
that we've learned over the years, because my wife wouldn't have watched.
It was just like, no, he's a creep.
He's the bad guy it's going to happen.
He's the bad guy.
He's a creep, you know, and I was already ahead and she's catching up and
I'm just like, no, he's just doofus.
Like, he's just a doofus, you know?
But, but it is, they did such a good job.
Like you said, the sword, it's like, okay, maybe he's not a doofus, but then
he's like, oh, you're, you're the Archer.
It's like, now you're just okay.
You know, so yeah, it was just it having characters like that is really, uh,
fun and, and none of is really fine.
It's one of the things trays I try and I have talked about it in some of
our episodes and even the movies is Marvel has this tendency sometimes, uh,
No undercut, you know, moments with, with this comedy, this, you know, this
levity and it's like, no, let that, you shouldn't let that moment breathe.
Um, and this series, I think, did that well, uh, they ha they did it well with
Jack's character where you had those funny moments and that levity, but
like when hock, I went to the Memorial.
You know, and he's, and he's talking and stuff like I was waiting for when
the person next to him is going to make a comment, you know, that talk,
I didn't know, or whatever didn't know because he took his hearing it out.
Uh, but they didn't do that.
They left it.
So that was what I was also another thing that was really cool about Jack
is his, the way they were able to use them for that, for that comedy.
But, but still let those really important moments breathe.
Trey: Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
You know, on social media, we put out the question about like what lessons we'd
like to see the MCU adopt from Hawkeye.
And we're going to get to that question later, but I did want to jump in here
and say Jude off of what you just said.
Uh, Ben dot Maddie on Instagram.
That was his answer.
They said, you know, put the characters first and let the more serious moments
sit instead of making a joke right after.
And, and I couldn't agree more with him and with what you said, because
I think this is one of the more emotionally intelligent shows and
the way they let the emotion be the moving force, rather than, than having
to make a joke afterward, because I'm thinking of that Memorial scene.
Um, and probably one of the biggest highlights of the series.
Is the conversation where Kate was interpreting for him, for his son and
how much that just knocked everybody over with how impactful that was.
Um, and, and to, to tie it to what I was saying earlier, not only does
it deepen who we know of Clint, but it deepens what it is our heroes
are actually giving up to, you know, and, and the medicines provide our
entertainment, but in the narrative be the hero that they are allotted for.
Sean: Yeah.
Well, and I agree with both of you, cause I think what they did
with Clint Barton, this show was really great and how they did that.
And just like what you said, they didn't throw the comedy of there at
the expense of those serious moments, but cleanse character in the show had
a lot of serious moments and had a lot of great comical moments as well, too.
That, you know, you can, you can marry both of them in the same, um, story with
the same character and have a really great show or really great movie by allowing
those moments to happen without having to take, you know, make it lighter because of
that, because just like we've been talking about it's, it's those emotional scenes
that we saw with his conversation with his son and, and Kate having to interpret
that, um, you know, th the conversation that he and Kay had about Clint losing
Nat in the, you know, the shot he didn't take, it was the best shot he ever took.
Right.
And, and the Memorial and things like that, like, those are really heartfelt
emotional scenes that, you know, had you made a joke at the end of it.
I think what had just completely erase what Clint was
experiencing in the whole show.
And I think they did a great job of creating that balance there.
Jude: Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Especially that moment there with the best shot.
We ever took was the one.
He didn't such a fantastic moment.
Trey: And if anything, it feels like the reverse of what we're talking
about because we're talking about moments being undercut with humor.
That whole scene is humor and leads into the seriousness and the way
they did it is you saw Clint become comfortable and he wanted to open up.
And then he's like, no, no, I can't talk about this.
So it's like, it's almost like it was the show.
And I don't know this for sure.
I'm just speculating, but it was almost like the show was aware of that and it
was leaning into like, no, we're going to let the emotion drive this scene.
Sean: Right.
And what I really love about that scene Trey is that.
We see him struggle with how he lost his family and that he was
really heartbroken over that he was missing his family and he was really
struggling with the loss of Nat.
And then when Kate figures out that he's Ronin, Jeremy Renner did a great
job of just switching mental attitudes because all of a sudden he's shut down.
And he was like, people had to handle it their own way.
And he was like, almost like not remorseful of what he did.
And I think is because if he had opened up those flood gates, he would just
probably break down because he had to like figure out how to compartmentalize.
But I think Jeremy Renner just did a great job of expressing those different
kinds of diverse ways of how people handle those things mentally with, with
grief and loss and things like that.
And, and I think it was just phenomenal.
Like that whole scene was.
Absolutely phenomenal from an acting point of view that has such great range
from, you know, not just being able to do comedy and emotional heartfelt
scenes, but within the emotional heartfelt scenes, they were able to do,
you know, even more range with that and go even deeper with that as well, too.
So I, I, I love that scene as well for that reason.
Trey: Yeah.
And, and on that topic of Jeremy Renner's acting Hailee Steinfeld and
just the, the seriousness and the reserved nature that, that, eh, that
Clint is bringing is brought out by the earnest and sincere nature of
Kate that Hailee Steinfeld and brings.
And I thought they were such a great pair on screen together.
Sean: Yes.
Oh yeah.
They definitely capture that banter between Barton and Bishop that we
see in the comics and it definitely sold on screen and, and they were
just fantastic with each other.
Like they're, you know, I know I, you know, we'll probably talk
about this, like, you know, Kate and Elena were great on screen.
Um, and I think that if we had never had Kate and Elena, because that's, what's,
you know, kind of taking the social media by storm with that relationship, um,
before that moment, Kate and Kate and Clint's relationship was this fantastic
because of that budding partnership that they were able to, that the actors
were able to display on a screen.
I think they did a fantastic job is that as well, too.
So.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah, it was, it was just so natural.
Uh, and again, the way they were able to have that mentor, mentee relationship,
you know, you just kind of, you felt it,
Sean: right?
Yeah.
Oh yeah,
Trey: absolutely.
I think in episode two, I called it the unsolicited pupil and
I can't help, but remember the scene where Clint begrudgingly
gives her his cell phone number.
It's like, okay.
In case of emergencies only, and then as he's walking away,
she's like, I'll call you.
And he's just like walking away, dejected.
Right.
Such
Sean: a great pairing.
What was genius in that scene?
Is that.
The character.
Kate knew him well enough already to know that she was, she did like,
she texted from his number to her.
So that way she had his number, right.
Or, yeah, cause that's where it was, is like he gave her, he gave her
his phone to put her number in, but he wasn't going to have her have
his number till she texted him.
Cause he knew already that he was not going to do it.
So she just went ahead and did it anyway.
So yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
It was just like, Kate is just, is that annoying nuisance for Quinn's?
But, but, and there was such a great way that, you know, it grows on him and
everything, but you know, just the fact that she's able to think ahead, it's
like, I know what he's going to do.
And I want this I'm going to make it happen basically.
And she keeps doing that throughout the whole series.
I love it.
I always thought Hailee Steinfeld would have been a great choice for Kate Bishop
and she absolutely nailed it with it.
So,
Trey: yeah, I think I saw this on Twitter and one I'm going to butcher it
and the two, not being able to properly credit it, but if I, if I come across
it I'll make sure it sends to link it.
But somebody said that.
Hailee Steinfeld to Kate Bishop is what Robert Downey Jr.
Was to Tony stark.
And it's hard to, to full the full throat support that because it's
only one entry, but what a heck of an entry for Hailee Steinfeld to come
in and leave her mark on the MCU?
Because I think it is no secret.
She has quickly become a fan favorite across the entirety of the MCU fandom.
Sean: Yes, definitely
Trey: in conjunction with Yulaina.
So I want to do, I want to take some time real quick, cause we really
haven't talked about them that much.
Uh, Sean, do you have any favorite scenes of Kate and Elena together?
Sean: Oh my God.
Trey: I'm still in the top five mode from last week.
I'm trying to make people
Sean: pick.
Yeah.
I mean, and it's hard to pick one scene because I think they've only had three
scenes together in the series, right?
The.
Rooftop, which wasn't a whole lot of interaction at all.
Then when you Elena shows up in her apartment and then their, their fight
scene set the hotel at the party.
And that was it.
Right.
And, and I got say, I think I really enjoyed the apartment, uh, seen as
my favorite between Kate and Elena.
Um, for a couple of reasons is, is one.
It was great to kind of see them have a really.
Uh, again, like wide spectrum of kinds of conversations they had, like,
it was, you know, a mix of comedy.
It was a mix of emotional drama and just, uh, you know, a little bit of like
anger and Elena having that, you know, dramatic, uh, exit, you know, she's
become a poser, like she called that.
Right.
Um, but I, what I love about it is that I've heard or read somewhere
that, um, when they filmed a scene, I guess they just let Haley and Florida.
Do their thing in their characters for like a long time.
And like, I guess they didn't take a whole lot of direction from it and they
just had those conversations naturally.
So it just, they had a natural relationship, um, that they, or rapport
with each other that they build that just worked really well on screen.
And that's why everybody just loves them because they were
just so fantastic to watch.
Like, if you can watch somebody ha like watch two people have a conversation
for that long and be enamored by that.
I think that tells you what great charisma they, those two
have with each other, you know?
Trey: Yeah, man.
And if that's true about the improvisation of their scenes
together, That that's incredible.
And I can believe it, like the way they work together is, is fantastic.
Like, I mean the whole, the box macaroni and cheese seed like that, that is such
a natural conversation between them two and, and the way that Kate was just
disgusted as Julina's pouring in that hot sauce and just like going to town, like
it is again to come back to this word.
Authentic.
And, you know, earlier Jude had mentioned that the action scenes were well done.
Um, the thing that I think makes them so well done is the
ability to imbue narrative.
So it's not just action for action's sake and right.
You know, I know that the scene in the apartment isn't an action scene, but
the fact that there's so much meaning, and that conversation going back and
forth about trying to basically have Clint on trial, like you had a, Yulaina
attacking him and wanting to make her case for why she wanted to kill him.
And Kate was putting the things that Clint had taught her to.
And so I just, again, I thought it was brilliant and to pair that with the scene
of them in the office building, as they were fighting back and forth, um, that was
my setup for the action narrative part.
It speaks so much about who Kate is that she has clearly outmatched and yet she
still keeps going at Elena and trying to stop her from, from killing Clint.
Sean: Yup.
Oh yeah.
Well, and, and, and we see that in all of her action scenes,
like just the stubbornness of, you know, she doesn't care.
She's outmatch, he's not going to.
You know, just roll over and play dead at all.
Like we saw that when she got thrown off the building, you know, and she just kind
of grunts and went right back up to the ceiling after Clint tells her to go home.
Right.
And, and I think that tells a lot about characters.
Like, you know, even though she knows, uh, well, and, and I don't know if she
knows, like she's probably still naive at that point, because I remember that,
you know, in that same scene where she's like, oh, I'm so glad I didn't kill you.
And you is like, oh, that's so funny now thinking that you could kill me.
I think, you know, there's still that naivete that goes along with it, but
the fact that she's stubborn and, and ambitious and, um, like motivated and
committed to that, I think speaks a lot about her character that we, we
see from the comics as well, too.
It really portrays on screen very well with Hailee Steinfeld.
So, yeah.
Trey: Yeah.
You know, I can't help, but like, I know this is always like a go-to,
but the, I can't remember exactly the Congress, some loony tune, a
cartoon where it's the big dog.
Just keeping the little dog at bay with her hand while the
little dog is just swinging.
That's a nutshell.
Sean: Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Definitely.
Trey: Well, I think unless there's any more that might wrap up some of the
overall positive things we had to say.
We're going to move into some of the disappointments that we
had for the Hawkeye series a and starting with Jude this time.
Uh, what was, what are some of the things that disappointed you about Hawkeye?
Jude: Uh, my biggest disappointment was the treatment of kingpin.
Um, you know, and I know I talked about an episode, just that that's really,
I think my, my, well, no, my biggest disappointment is I didn't get two
more episodes cause I love the show.
Uh, but just, I, I can't, I just thought that the, they
didn't quite land the financial.
Uh, now having said that if your first episode you've downloaded of us, I feel
like this is my favorite Disney plus show.
And the finale is like one, B, two Loki's, one, a finale, just like
just looking at the finale by itself.
Loki was finale.
It was so good.
We just got too much of kingpin.
You know, we've already mentioned the pain blown up by the bomb and
all of that stuff, uh, for as big, a name and big a character as he is.
And as big of name of an actor, uh, that that's getting that's
reprising this role actually.
Um, I just thought they could have done a better way.
Uh, I feel like you could have accomplished the same things, wrapping
up Maya story in terms of like having Kasi die and, but not my having to do it.
Um, but also I think there's a little bit of me.
For me, at least not having enough handholding on, on
understanding Causey's arc.
Uh, so like that was the biggest disappointment,
Trey: you know, I, I can step into that space with you, uh, because I think
it's pretty clear for anybody who's been listening to our coverage and if
not, I'll get to it later, but there was so much, I think about Maya's story
that felt like it didn't get to finish as well as the Ronan aspect of Clint.
Uh, so those were, those were my disappointments, but to talk about
what you mean with the handholding and Kasi, uh, there were external knowledge
that I knew because of interviews that frothy had about his character
Causey, where he mentioned that it was, uh, that he was there and the karate
class with Maya when they were kids.
And so without that knowledge, I think it's, it's, it's easy to miss the C thing.
Not saving, but like just the slow boil of jealousy that Kasi had for Maya taking
over after her father had passed away.
And so without that context, I think it is a little easy to see
why that fight was out of place.
And so, yeah, I just wanted to step in and set that context for, for people who
didn't know that part about Kasi as well.
And really I'll even say this, uh, because I was watching some videos
on, on Hawkeye to kind of prep for this, you know, I think there it is
a mistake of the show that Kasi is such a cloudy character because I saw
people refer to him as her cousin and that they're, they're not related.
It's just, we didn't get a clear enough picture of who caused he is not only
in relation to Maya, but I think in some of the motivations of the show,
Sean: Yeah.
Well, and I think part of that confusion is because they kept referring to
kingpin his uncles as well, too.
Yeah.
And, and there's, there's a lot of confusion around that from a lot of
different angles because, um, in the comics, and this is kind of probably
alluded to show as well, too, but just, you know, just to your point, Trey, they
didn't really dive into it too much.
Is that in the comics, kingpin actually adopted Maya as his daughter
when, um, when her father dies.
And so there's, so I could see some people probably think of that they were
supposed to be cousins in that, um, in that way, because they were probably
thinking that because Kasi is referring to him as uncle and Maya's referring to
him as uncle that they're probably not really brother and sister in that regard.
So I think the.
The term of endearment that they're using, they're probably kind of threw
people off a little bit in terms of, they're not quite sure what that
relationship is because of that.
Um, but I mean, I think you're right in that, you know, there wasn't Kasi
story was probably one that didn't get as much treatment as some of the other
ones, because I know, you know, up until episode three, You know, he seemed like
he was a very ominous character because in episode one, you see him, you know,
looking at Kate Bishop in the Ronin suit when she's across the street.
And she just say, you know, pizza dog, um, and you see his face for the first time.
And they kind of set up to be a very ominous kind of looking experience.
And then when Clint refers to him as the, uh, general manager of the,
you know, furniture store, right.
He's like, is that your guys' manager again, he doesn't talk or anything.
And that whole scene is so he kind of gives us ominous presence in there.
And then it just seems like it kind of got glossed over because
they were trying to do a whole lot.
And I think it's probably one of those things where just like what
you said, Jude, if they had two more episodes, I think they could
extrapolate a little bit more.
If you both notice, but hock, I kind of went into this
pattern of the first episode.
They went into the origin story of Kate.
Right, right.
And then the second episode picked up right after the first episode.
And then when we get into the third episode, it opens with
the origin story of Maya.
And then the fourth episode picks up right after where it ends
with the, with the third episode.
So I think if there were to do two more episodes, Kasi would have
been a great one for them to do another origin story, to kind of
help develop that a little bit more.
Cause yeah.
Cause I think just like what you said, I, you know, Kay is really relatively
new to the general population.
Uh, my Lopez is an Kasi, whereas kingpin doesn't really need to have
that sort of origin story because everybody kind of knows who he is on
a conscious on a, like a collective conscious level because he's in so
many, um, stories and movies already.
But with these characters, you kind of need that introduction.
I think you're right.
Is that Kasi didn't get that sort of treatment.
Like the other ones did.
So.
Yeah,
Jude: well, and my mistake was I, I took it as Kasi cared for Maya and not to say
that he didn't, but, and so the whole idea where this should have been my life
and like you got what should have been.
Mine was just a weird flip for me.
And so that's why it's like, well, if we rearrange where Maya goes to confront
Kasi and kingpin, and you have that whole section and king decides to do kingpin
things at that moment and then Kasi steps in, and then that would also kind of, I
guess, even prompt more motivation later for echo, assuming that's working, Ben
shows up again, and I realized there's this comic storyline that could be played
out here, but it just felt for this story.
It would have been better to do it this way.
Uh, you could S I still feel like they could have had Kate save her
mom from kingpin without having to do that particular battle
again, because I know you want to show that basic hero's journey.
Right.
I learned from the mentor, I have to show now that in and take those lessons and
show on my own, in terms of scaling what we're used to seeing with Marvel of like
the scaling up in powers and leveling up Kate Bishop went from origin story
to way beyond what I think naturally would've progressed right there from
what we're used to and that's, and that's where it just kind of like, okay.
Um, and then again, kingpin is just such a looming presence that they
could have, I think, had some patients and held onto that a little longer.
Sean: Right.
Yep.
Yeah.
I think they definitely have some plans for kingpin, like in the future.
Um, because the one scene that really sticks out to me that I think is a bit
of a hint for us is when she shoots kingpin with an arrow and then it just
like sticks in him and it seemed like it doesn't phase and she just looks at
it as like, what, uh, I think that kind of is a hint for us that something's
going on here that I honestly don't.
I honestly believe that this is not the last time we've seeing kingpin.
I think he's going to show up again.
Yeah.
But I think we're probably going to find out more either in enough, another
series or, you know, whether it's echo or another movie or something like that.
Um, but yeah, I, I, um, yeah, yeah.
I see where you, where y'all all going from that.
And, and, um, I, I think what they did with kingpin, I think I I'll be honest.
I think the actually.
Did what they should've done because well, you don't want to do is you don't
want to bring a character like that.
That ends up overpowering the entire finale, uh, by having him be like the main
villain that they fight, um, at the end.
Right.
Especially when he has shown up at this point, because then, you
know, from a screenwriting point of view, like how do you make all
that fit and make that make sense?
And it's, I think what they actually did.
I, I, in my opinion, I think actually made a lot of sense from not trying to have
the other stories, get overshadowed by, um, putting a whole lot of attention on
kingpin, because then we probably wouldn't have, um, as much of a emotional impact
with the resolution that we get from.
Uh, you Elena and Clint and some of the other stories as well too.
But, um, but yeah, I definitely agree.
I think Kasi story is, um, something that's a little bit of a kind of
scratching your head with that.
So
Jude: now on our finale episode, and I throw this to Trey, Trey thought, and
actually I thought he was actually pretty convincing, but they fumbled Clint store.
At the end here.
Trey: Um, yeah, so I, I don't know if you were familiar with what I said in
that episode, Sean, but just to recap it here, um, to me, the reason that
this wasn't my favorite Disney plus show, despite it being so close, is
that the whole point, the origin point for what they were doing with Clint
was that they were trying to make some.
Or he was trying to atone for what he did as Ronan that was clearly looming over
his head at the beginning of the show.
And so naturally when you get to the end, you want to have that resolved.
Right.
And I know there's no way that they can actually make a men's for everything
he did as Ronan, because he did go on a brutally Savage murder spree.
Right.
But I thought he was smart in the way that they, they gave us an in with tying his
actions as Ronin to the life of Maya and.
The thing where it starts to fall apart for me is in episode five, whenever
they have that confrontation with Clint and Maya, it came across to me
that Clint was talking down to Maya.
There was never an, an ounce of remorse or apology for what he did.
It was talking down to her like, Hey, we're weapons.
And if we don't control our anger, we get used.
And this is what happens.
If you come at me or my family, again, I will kill you.
That just felt like in contrast to so much of what they were
doing with Clint and trying to humanize them and let him open up.
And I thought that would've been such a great.
Moment a character growth moment for him to really have that honesty
and sincerity with, with Maya.
And we ended up getting it in a way with the way that he opens up to Yulaina.
It just, it felt like they missed out on that closure with Maya.
And even in the finale, even though I liked that episode a lot, it felt like
it was a missed opportunity that there are zero scenes with Maya and Clint.
And that to me is a misstep because it doesn't finish Maya story either.
Like so much of what was motivating her was the death of her father.
And I don't need to get that closure at the end of this show, but the
fact that we didn't get much progress other than a hint at it being Kasi
felt like another misstep for me.
Uh, so that, that's what I would put as my biggest disappointment of the show.
And, and to throw to you, I, I want to know, I mean, do you feel that
way or do you have any points in the.
Sean: Um, I mean to, to your point, I, I think, um, here's how I would kind
of frame it with that whole scene.
Cause, cause I, I agree with you in that it would've been great
to see Clint show remorse for killing, uh, Maya's father there.
Right?
Yeah.
Um, I, I think there's a couple of things that probably the writers were probably
fighting up against is that if you have that scene with Maya and showing that
sort of remorse, I think that probably would have taken away the emotional
impact that we're trying to get with Yulaina and Clint from when they talk
about Nat, uh, because if you have like two of those kinds of moments with that
same character, like I think it tends to get overshadow because they're kind of
similar in terms of that sense of remorse.
Um, but I think with Clint.
Here's the sense I get is that I think it's less about him atoning and more
about him trying to put it behind him, because I think it's, um, I, I think we
would love to see him kind of a tone, but you know, at the same time he was
trying to kill like bad guys in his mind.
Right.
And so even though, you know, Maya's father is like really great father
to Maya and everything like that.
And when you put it in context, like there's still the tracksuit mafia and we
don't know what was going on at that time.
But I mean, there, there's still criminals.
Did they deserve to be killed?
Probably not.
You know, but I, I still agree with you, Trey.
I think that is something that they kind of fell apart a little bit is that he, he
could have at least said that, you know, at the time this is what I was facing.
And he made that connection about how they're both weapons that were being
guided, you know, blinded by anger, but he could have still a lease.
He didn't have to have like a heartfelt.
Reaction, but he still could have at least acknowledged that what he did, you
know, affected her and shouldn't have happened and at least acknowledged that.
And so I think I agree with you with that trays, that there should have been
some sort of acknowledgement with that.
And I think that was a missed opportunity.
I don't know why they didn't put that in there.
And I do agree, like it was kind of odd because it almost seemed
like Maya's no longer mad at him.
And I get why, because, you know, even though he killed him, he killed him.
She now knows that he was ordered to kill him.
It wasn't just something that he just did, you know, Willy nilly.
But at the same time, like I, I've never experienced, you know, a loss of
a loved one from murder in that way.
I can't imagine that like someone just kind of lets them off the
hook on that regard either.
So, but in terms of my biggest disappointments there I say there are
four things, you know, ranging from like just a small thing to, here's
probably my biggest disappointment.
Um, I will say the first thing.
I'll be honest, and this is probably a hot take, but I was actually
disappointed with Rogers, the musical.
And here's why, and because I think there's a lot of things that's really
interesting about that, that I kind of find it interesting in terms of
why I think it was probably, I don't want to say mishandled, but I think it
just didn't really impress me is one, is that it's a, it's a musical about
an event that happened in New York.
That's probably, you know, still fresh on people's minds about like
people probably died from that event or, you know, their lives were
flipped upside down because of that.
And you're making a musical, that's kind of making light of that.
Right.
But the biggest thing for me is that have you two ever seen the Broadway show?
Trey: Uh, not an actual live performance, like, well, like a
Jude: musical or like, like I've seen stage production shows, not musicals.
They were not in New York.
I was, it was in London.
So
Sean: th it's like Broadway on London or in London, something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, so if you ever go to a Broadway show or even go to a traveling Broadway
show because they have those, you'll see that the theater production quality.
Like it's, I wouldn't be surprised if their budget is almost, you
know, the same kind of budget as what you see with the TV or film,
because it is professional looking.
It is really well done.
All the production theatrical and the sound effects and special effects that
they do with all that is just top notch.
Um, and when I look at the costumes that they use for Roger's a musical,
it legitimately looks like a high school put on this play because
Thor's costume was or hoax.
Costume was literally a guy with green face paint and a hoodie.
And ant man was a guy wearing a baseball Jersey with the PIM,
like symbol on front of it.
Like I would have expected it to reflect more of a Broadway show, especially
with the theater that they were, it was actually a Broadway theater.
I was, I was kind of, I guess, disappointed by that.
The other, I'll say my other three things, I'll let you to chime in
whenever you want with, with all that, but I'll just kind of throw these three
things out and then I'll step back.
But the other thing was, I was really disappointed that they
didn't really do much about Maya's native American heritage.
I love that they hone in on her, uh, deafness and her relationship
with her father and everything about her, but they did nothing
about her native American heritage.
And it was a missed opportunity for me in episode three, where she
has that conversation with her dad at bedtime, talking about dragons.
I'm like that would have been a great way to introduce some sort of native
American folklore as part of that conversation instead of dragons.
So it's just really, I thought it was a huge missed opportunity.
I hope they rectified that in the echo series that's coming out
later, but I really want to see that become more of a focal point for
her character as much as I love Kate Bishop and love Hailee Steinfeld.
I think by episode four, I was over.
Kate's maturity level and her early over Clint.
And that's how I felt like it.
And I go back and forth on this because I was just like, I, I get it.
You know, you're, you're, you're really excited about him, but I think, you
know, when she goes to the library and she's like, you know, I'm hock, I's
partner slash you know, best friend.
Like I was like, okay, that's a little bit too much because
like, he's not even around.
And you're saying that, you know, But at the same time, like when you put it
in perspective, like this series like takes place in the span of a week.
So she's probably not going to come down from that high for a while.
I think the next time we S we see her in a season, she's probably
going to calm down a lot from that.
But yeah, I think for me, I was like, uh, not sure how I
felt about her maturity level.
Trey: Uh, I guess I spoke too soon when I said Kate Bishop had become a fan
favorite across the, you found them?
Sean: No, I actually, honestly, she is still my favorite.
Like, I absolutely love her and I love that.
That's like the only one thing.
And that's like a screenwriting, like issue as opposed to a
character or, or acting thing.
I think Hayley nailed it in terms of acting, but it's just, I think
it was just the way it was written.
Like that's the only issue I had with that, other than that.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
So, and the last thing they'll say I'm actually really disappointed about is,
um, the watch belonging to Lord Bart.
Jude: I remember you, you were S you tweeted something about that.
Uh, and I, and I was curious, and definitely something I wanted to
ask you about, uh, to elaborate on.
Why, why was that a disappointment?
Yeah, so I,
Sean: so for me, There's like, I think two or three huge issues that
I have with it is one is that what's what's the, so what of that now?
Right.
So, okay.
We find out that she was Mockingbird and that she worked for shield.
It's like, so what, like, like where do we leave with that now?
Right.
And I can't imagine they're creating a Mockingbird series,
you know, based off of this now.
And so it was just kind of interesting, like all the things
they could have done about the watch, that's what they led with.
And I don't know what, what that was or what the attempt was other than
try to maybe connect it to how he was married to, uh, Bobby Morris,
who was Mockingbird in the comics.
But what's interesting is that there is a Laura Barton in the comics that
was married to Clint, but it was like a different, it wasn't earth 6 1 6.
So it was a different universe.
So, I mean, that's the only reason I think why they did that.
And I didn't think it was like a good enough reason to do that.
The other reason that I was kind of disappointed with that is that
it still doesn't make sense why Maya and Fisk was after the watch.
And the first thing that people would point out is that, well, you know, Clint
was Ronan, but I'll point out to him.
It was like, well, at the time, if it was Maya trying to get the watch, my
didn't know that Clint was running.
Right.
Yep.
Right.
Well, Fisk new is running.
And, but in episode six, we hear Fisk talking to Kazi about what's going on.
He said, there's Ronan on the loose.
And there's an Avenger after us, which implies that he didn't know that they
were the same person at that time either.
So it still doesn't make sense why they're after that watch.
So I think that was like a huge story, like plot hole for me, that
just bothered me that they could have done a whole lot of things.
And there was like, so much focus on the watch.
And then like, this is what they did with it.
I was just, that was like the biggest let down for.
Yeah,
Trey: I'll go out there with you on that.
Like the, the, the Mockingbird stuff I'm okay with, like, it goes more
to what I was saying in the positive section about like, it, it just
feels like it deepens the world.
Like we don't have to go that far into it, but we it's, it broadens the view.
But my problem with the watch is the second thing you said in that
it felt like a pointless MacGuffin.
Yes.
And it feels like this is becoming a trend
Jude: called my girlfriends are pointless,
Trey: but you illustrated the exactly what my problem was that.
Who wanted to watch, you know, you spotlight white
couldn't be kingpin or Maya.
I was speculating that maybe it was causing and that somehow he knew that
it was tied to Clint and he wanted that as leverage to make sure that it
never came out, that he was the one who ordered the hit on Maya's father, because
it would make sense why he was there.
And they had that shot of him lifting up his mask and looking very
concerned now really realizing that this had become a deeper problem.
But again, we unfortunately just never got a broader look at who Kasi is
and what his motivations were, but, uh, you're a hundred percent spot on
in that that watch felt like a weird centerpiece that never became important.
Jude: It's one of those, like you're in the writing and I, this
is what I feel like what happened.
You're in the writing room and you have this Christmas story of dad separated
from family and how do we get them home?
And it, and that's, like I said, that MacGuffin, that mechanism
that's that's makes it so important.
Um, just like the roading suit, the suit itself felt like about a little
bit of the point of it was how do we get Kate and Martin together?
You know, right.
At that point, it's like, okay, we're going to, I love the LARPers, but we're
going to have to go see the LARPers.
Now they're going to have to do this.
It just, yeah, I agree on that sense.
Sean: Yeah.
Well, and LSA this dude, like you, you bring up another good point that I
actually mentioned before on our podcasts.
Is that just like what you said?
The watch was almost needless in this sense, because Clint had
already acknowledged that the suit was tied to him, which means
it would be tied to his family.
And so the suit by itself is already showing that the family is in danger.
So the watch didn't need to be like in the.
Plot device in that aspect.
And then Trey, what you said about Kasi.
Like I would say even then that theory still doesn't hold up about Kasi wanting
it because causing Clint didn't really know who each other wore, because when
Clint talks about the informant, um, it seems to imply that he never really
talked to the foreman directly, but that the informant told kingpin, then kingpin
told Clint as Ronan to do the hit.
And so it seems like they never interact with each other.
So from the first episode, he's still would make sense why
Kasi was going after it still.
So it's yeah.
So it's just, I feel like the more you shine a light on this watch, the more
it just starts to melt and was just like, this doesn't make any sense.
I was just really disappointed.
Cause it's like, I think the only reason why they introduced this is just to
say that Laura Barton was Mockingbird and that was pretty much, it, it
was really a plot device that really served no purpose other than that.
So yeah.
Jude: And,
Trey: and, and it feels like it, I never thought about this
until the way you just framed it.
But if that is the only thing that it almost just feels like its purpose was
to, to do a way with the agents of shield cannon, which I've talked about it before.
I'm fine with if there's a reason for it, but I never thought about like, okay,
this is almost kind of spiteful now that there wasn't an actual reason for it.
Sean: I know.
Well, you know, what's funny is that that debate will never go away.
And for me, like whether it's Canada or not, I still enjoy them for what they are.
And so like, it never bothers me, like if they're actually Canada, but there are
people out there who are very adamant.
No, it's not cannon or yes, it is cannon.
And I feel like it doesn't really resolve it.
I think they're just adding fuel to higher.
Trey: Maybe that
Sean: people still talk.
Yeah.
I think that's exactly what it is.
It's like, let's know this and just watch chaos and shoe with the
Marvel cinematic universe fandom.
Right.
Trey: They've had it too good for too long.
Let's add a little fuel to the
fire.
Sean: Let's see what they come up with next.
Jude: Oh man.
Trey: Oh, that's fancy.
Well, yeah.
You know, I think that's a pretty good summation of some of the
disappointments we had with Hawkeye.
I think as you can tell significantly shorter than our things we enjoyed.
So pretty safe to say that this is one of the better Disney plus series, but
that's going to move us into our next section, which is lingering questions
that we have for the series or some of the extraneous potential series as well.
So starting with me this time, I think one of the lingering things on my mind is
wondering what will Kate do now that she doesn't really have anywhere to call home?
Uh, she, you know, it starts off with her coming back to New York
and just having her own apartment that her mom was paying for.
But now that she, or I should say now that her mom has been arrested,
is she going to be staying with the Barton's or will she be doing her own.
Sean: I actually have a theory about that.
Trey, if you let me, uh, go for it, cut it off, you know, ramble on about that.
But, um, knowing the comics with hot guy and, and Clint Martin and Kate Bishop,
I think that if they were to do a season two, which I really hope it kind of
concerns me, they haven't confirmed it.
Even though they said, you know, season finale, the fact that Loki,
and what if has had like a, you know, season two is coming out.
We haven't heard anything yet.
Like, I'm really concerned about that.
But if they were to do a season two, I think what we might do or
what we might see is Kate Bishop.
My actually become a private investigator LA because that's actually
what she does and the comics when she's not teaming up with Clint.
And I think the series here has actually did a great job of kind of showing
Kate, being a detective already.
Cause he's figuring out things along the way very quickly.
And they did a lot of, like, I think there was one scene where she was like
taking notes about the tracksuit bros and even like the drawings and everything
included was making fun of her drawings.
But I think that was kind of like a little throw back to the fact that, you know,
she is good enough to be a private ISI.
I would not be surprised if they show her being an LA trying
to be a private investigator.
And I think will be really cool is if they bring Clint back again, um, you know,
more than just a random cameo, but to tie their stories in again, is that we might
see Clint run into his brother, Barney, who is also trained just like Clinton.
So he's almost like Clint's equal in that regard.
And Barney becomes a villain that they're fighting.
And so he has to get Kate to help out for whatever reason.
So that's, that is where I would like to see season two if they do that.
Um, but that's what they do in the comics is that she's actually
a private investigator out in LA.
Trey: Dude if season two is the reverse and which Clint needs Kate's help.
That is just a rich prompt for a series.
I love, love that idea of man.
Sean: Oh yeah, because it's, it's a good, uh, way to show that
they're on equal footing and that they're truly partners in that way.
Right.
Is that Kate needed his help him season one.
And now it's, it's the reverse in season two.
I think it'd be a great way to demonstrate that.
Yeah,
Jude: no, that's, that's fantastic.
Um, and a great way to answer that, like said the what's
what happens next for Kate?
Um, as a lingering question and I think, you know, Hey, Marvel hit us up.
We're we're ready to ready to start developing season two for you.
Trey: So, what about you, Sean?
Do you have any lingering questions?
Uh, on the series?
Sean: Uh, so I got to say there are some questions and they're
a little bit more, I would say a little bit more silly and comical.
Um, the first one is, are the shrunken bros and we can be okay.
Like, are we ever going to get a follow up to see like, what actually
happened to, cause I thought maybe that'd be the end credit scene
for the sear or for the season.
And now we have no idea if like they're just hanging out
with this Al now in that truck.
And they're just going to be tiny people for the rest of their life.
Jude: I thought I heard or read somewhere that that was a potential in credit.
Oh.
But the realization of like, they're just about to be eaten by
birds, they liked to cut it and decided, no, I gotta look that up.
I think that, I think I read that somewhere, so yeah.
Trey: Well, Hey, let's put it on the record now.
Yes or no.
Do we see them cameo and ant man quantum.
Sean.
Sean: Oh, I would, I would love, I think that'd be a guy
wouldn't be fallout if they do it.
I, I think I would, yes.
I will go on the record and say, yes, I think they will make at least some, if
they don't make a appearance, there'll be some sort of call-out about them.
Like maybe Scott saying like, yeah, I think Clint told me about like,
these three guys are shrunken down.
I need to figure out what to do or something like that.
So if they don't appear, I think maybe a shout out at least.
Trey: Yeah,
Jude: dude.
Yes or no.
Yes.
I'm going with, at least with shame with Sean with at least a shout out.
Uh that's it's too good.
It's too funny.
Trey: And to go out there.
Yes.
I'll put myself on the record and I'm going to go one step further.
That'll be the cold open to that's somehow they're like in dire straights
and Scott Lang has to come in and say,
Sean: oh, that'd be comical.
I would love that.
If that happens, I'm going to hit you up, like buy you dinner because I'm
like, if you, if you hit it up a nail like that, cause that's a bull gas.
If you get it on the nail like that, that is amazing.
So yes, I will send you a $10 gift card to McDonald's
Jude: oh, on the app,
Sean: on the app.
Trey: Listen, Kevin FYGI super fan he's listening.
He knows.
He
Jude: knows.
Sean: Um, the, the other comical thing or question I have is I I've been saying this
on a couple of episodes on our podcasts, and I'm curious to see what you guys think
about this, but in the series, we have our monitor Cain, the third and our Mon decane
the seven both living at the same time.
And I did the math and Armando Kane would be the seventh.
Great, great.
Great grandfather.
It's out of the great, great or great, great, great grandfather.
And I just stopped.
That is really weird.
It's like no one else bothered by that fact that there's this huge generational
gap, because that means that like Armando cane and all of his subsequential sons,
like add children at a very early age in order for him to be at that age and
to have a seventh running around there.
Right.
Trey: Well, listen, like next year, we're going to get the Disney
plus show days of our mind to
Jude: figure out what that story is.
That's definitely a soap opera waiting to happen.
Sean: Oh my gosh.
Oh, that'd be fantastic.
Yeah.
So
Jude: I liked that character to just, I don't know, just
the way he carried himself.
Um, but
Sean: now third or the seventh?
Jude: Both actually
Trey: yeah.
If anything, the seventh was carried.
Sean: Oh,
Jude: yeah.
You know what?
I want you to say it, I'm going to jump in and say, one of my lingering questions
is, are we going to get to see the LARPers again and in particular grills?
Um, because I really, really enjoyed that aspect of the show,
but that character, uh, grills in particular, is this something that
we have to wait for a season two?
Is he going to be, you know, something that somebody that shows up a little
bit more, almost this Kate bishops man in the chair, so to speak, you
know, that we see kind of show up over and over again and other things.
Yeah.
So like that's one for me.
Uh, as far as lingering question.
And for his biggest security firm is we are led to believe that the
bishops had what happens now to that.
Um, cause I feel like there's an opportunity where like kingpin can
slide in and take that over or is like, she does that go to Kate's like,
you know what you know, is this kind of her in, so now I'm super rich and
don't have to have a job, you know?
Like, like I'm really curious of what happens in that company.
Sean: Yeah.
Trey: What if this is a way for AME to take your place and the
remnants of Bishop's security?
Do we bring
Jude: that back?
Sean: Is aim still around because there were an Ironman three.
Yeah,
Trey: that was the
Jude: last we heard of him.
Yeah.
You know what if, if between the two.
And I say it's between the two.
Um, but I realized there's no context for the second one.
Uh,
I prefer the second option.
The second option is hammer.
Like I'd rather between aim and hammer industry, you know, I'd rather
have a hammer and Sam Rockwell back.
Yeah.
But yeah, the aim
Sean: was an iron man.
Three hammer was in jail at that point, right?
Jude: Uh, yes.
I think the last time we saw
Sean: him, he was in the workshop.
Right.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
But yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, not to trail off too much, but I mean, that's, that was
another thing about Kate's character that I thought was interesting that
they didn't really go anywhere with.
Is that.
Kate almost had that snobby attitude.
Cause when she's at security at Bishop securities, this he's
walking in, she just drops her coat and backpack at the front desk.
And like not even on the desk, just on the floor and just expect
somebody to take it up for her.
Right.
And, and so I thought it was interesting that they wrote that in.
I wasn't quite sure why they did that.
And I thought they were going to do something with it, but I don't
know, maybe it was just kind of a quirky thing that they had in there.
But in regard to the LARPers, is there, if I take a minute kind of talk about
that translation from the comics to who they are in the show, is that
in the comics they weren't LARPers.
And the whole context of that comics to kind of give in a nutshell is
that this is a very different Clinton Barton than what we're seeing in the
comic run that I mentioned earlier.
Clint Barton's actually.
Bachelor.
We actually see in the comic run that he ends up sleeping with
a woman, like during the run.
And, uh, it, Trey, I, I apologize.
Cause I know you said PG 13.
I don't know if that falls under PG 13 or not, so that's fine.
You're good.
Okay.
Trey: Iron man.
One has this pretty much covered on that.
Sean: So, but yeah, I mean, so, so, you know, he sleeps
with the woman in that run.
Um, he's like divorce and all that, but he's, he's definitely a bachelor in that.
So it's a different kind of Clinton, Barney.
He doesn't have a family that he's trying to get back to in here.
Right.
But in that comic run, he actually lives in a apartment building in New York city.
It had just a, quite a lot of money for.
You know, working with the Avengers that the tracksuit
mafia was bullying the tenants.
And so he ends up buying the building from them in order to stop that from happening.
And all the characters that you see are LARPers are actually
tenants in the comic run.
So grills was actually a very different kind of character, but I think what
they did that was really genius is that one, they make them LARPers because
just like in the series, the, at the end of the comics, all the tenants
actually helped Clinton Cate fight off the tracksuit mafia by just taking
up like baseball batch of whatever is around them and attacking them.
So I think that was a great way to use LARPers as a way to show that they can
actually help Clinton Kate, because they have some sort of fighting training
through their LARPing experience.
Right.
I love the fact that they also made them all first responders as well, too, because
they've made a lot more sense in the context of that show of that storyline.
And it's still kind of, in my opinion, holds true to the comic book
run from where it's aspired from.
So.
Jude: Yeah.
Now I have the Marvel unlimited and I'm trying to go through those, but I say
trying, like I haven't finished I've started the, that Hawkeye run and yeah.
And I remember that what you were saying about the buying the building and, and
ultimately just having that bachelor feel and like, that's just what he does.
He's an, a venture kind of that's, this is what I do.
This is what I'm good at.
So I'm going to go avenge,
Sean: right?
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
So yeah, I mean, so what's funny is that there's a lot of inspiration from
the common ground, but there's also a lot of stark differences in the series
as well, too, that makes it its own.
And it still works very well for how they did it.
And that's why, again, that's why this has been one of my
favorite shows because of that.
So.
I think the biggest question, there's a lot of them like, you know, I, I
want to see if we're going to get and Elena, you know, and another series of
like young Avengers, I want to know, you know, is, are we going to see Clint
again by, I think the biggest thing in addition to, are we getting a season two?
Is that, is this the same king pin as the one for the Netflix Daredevil series?
And we already talked about that.
Um, but I think this is going to be an argument which will be like probably
never cause they do a really good job of confirming and denying and
their statements at the same time.
Like they just do a great job of doing that.
They really do.
So.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it wasn't until I realized there's no real incentive, just
from a business standpoint to de-incentivize people from watching
a show, even if it's not Marvel studios, it's still part of Marvel.
Why would they say, oh no, that's trash.
Don't watch that.
They're never going to definitively say
Sean: right?
Yeah.
Trey: Well, cool.
I think that's a good sample of some of the lingering questions
that we have, uh, for the series.
And, you know, I'm going to go ahead and switch gears here since we already teased
it a little bit earlier in the episode.
I'm, I'm just very curious to know Sean, if you had one takeaway from this show to
have as a lesson for the other MCU shows, what would you like to see them adopt?
Sean: Um, you know, for me it it's actually, I think there's, there's two.
Um, I would like for them to still make shows like hot guy in the sense that
just like what you said, Trey is it gives us a deeper dive into characters
and stories, especially with people who don't have superpower abilities.
Cause I think that's, what's really cool about this show.
Um, I think this was, um, probably the only show that we've seen so far
where we have people that weren't super powered, um, you know, with the
exception of Sam Wilson in Falcon, winter soldier, but you have Bucky,
who's a super soldier in that regard.
Um, but I love that.
And the fact that it's, you know, it's street level type of a crime show that we
get that it's something that I think can live in its own little world that doesn't
have to necessarily be impacting the MCU general, but it kind of lives in that.
And I think that's what made this show really well because it's really
reminiscent of the Netflix series that was really successful with their devil
and Jessica Jones and all of them.
And, you know, the, the main difference is that it's not TVMA and it's not as dark
as that, but I think the stories really hold up really well because of that.
Um, and I think that the.
I would like to see them still exploring the themes of the
aftermath of people coming to grass.
Like what happened as a result of end game?
Um, I don't think they're going to harp on it too much.
Um, I think they'll probably have a couple of shows on that, but I think
exploring, you know, Having a movie or show that dives into, you know,
what happened as a result of like this major event from that character?
Cause we saw that with Ironman three really well, I think with,
you know, with him having PTSD from what happened in New York.
Um, but we haven't really seen a whole lot more to that same depth of what we
have with Hawkeye, with the exception of Wanda vision, who, you know,
completely, you know, hold the town hostage and change reality for everybody.
And so, um, so I think having those kinds of shows where they explore
themes of handling those things that happen to them as the aftermath of
some sort of major event and kind of seeing that, cause we don't see that
with a lot of these superhero movies.
And the first time we really saw that was in Spider-Man
homecoming, where we saw that.
The D the department David's control came in and tried to clean up New York, but
it's like every superhero movie before that it's like, when they just completely
destroyed city, we don't talk about, you know, what happened after the fact.
Right.
And so I think that's something that would be really cool for them to continue
on is to still kind of do that more of a introspection reflection type of thing as
they're moving forward with a plot of that helps with the character forward as well.
Trey: Yeah.
W we, we put out on social media again, this very same question.
And I just wanted to jump in here real quick before I throw it back to
you, dude, that, uh, this one comes in from Rob Logan on Twitter, and it says
personal stakes are just as, if not more interesting than universal threats.
It's time to explore more street-level stories.
And I think that is definitely in line with everything you just said,
Sean, and, uh, and just real quick, I totally shortened Twitter to Twitter
just to mess with Rob, but go ahead.
I interrupted you to, to put that in there.
Jude: Um, yeah, I just, I have that same feeling like, like I feel that
street level, that first episode Rema reminiscent of Daredevil, uh, on Netflix.
So I completely agree with that.
The direction though.
I think I want to go is I w I want to see them continue to build on the creativity.
And then what I mean by that is.
I up until Hawkeye Wanda vision was my favorite MCU show because I just loved
the concept of the sitcom and recreating the sitcoms because I remember growing
up watching Nick at night reruns and just television and the way they were
able to wrap that in to Wanda's life.
The family around the TV, watching the sitcom, right.
Is that's like what happened?
And it was, you know, a family event then hear the creativity of how they were able
to portray the hearing loss, both with Clint, Maya, American sign language, and.
And have they really were able to make me feel, get a glimpse
or experience, uh, what that is.
That's the big thing for me, there is like in those six episodes, there's an
element of creativity that you can do that you can't do in a movie because they're
that conceptual or things that I need to teach slowly, the audience and how, and
what I'm doing and build up to, to this.
Um, and so that's, that's something I really hope they can carry on with.
And these Disney plus
Sean: shows.
Trey: Yeah, it's always interesting, or it makes it a far more interesting show
when you have that level of creative vision to really center the show on.
And, and I think you illustrated it beautifully what that was
for one division and how some of the, uh, different glimpses.
To other experiences helps in Hawkeye and creating that,
that, um, deepening of the show,
you know, for me, it, it circles back to kind of your point as well.
Shawn, uh, I think you outlined everything about the street level threats,
uh, of Hawkeye that made it really interesting to go on that same token.
But on the flip side, I prefer that not prefer, I enjoy that
civilian level view as well.
I already mentioned how that inspired so much of what Kate turned out to
be, uh, everything it gave us with the LARPers, but even glimpses of,
to the way the population at large feels by having fantasies, right.
Graffitied on the toilet or the apartment with the mug that says Stanos was
right as well to even having Rogers the musical or the way that the waiter was
congratulate or not congratulating cliff, but like thanking him for, for what
he had done at the battle of New York.
Again, as I said in the positive section, for as much as we'd
like to say, the MCU is expanded, this show was about deepening it.
And I think that's how you do it.
Moving forward by giving more than just the perspective of the
people we're dealing with within the stories they're telling.
Yeah.
Jude: Uh, go ahead.
I was gonna say something you just said popped in my head and
it's the wrong section for it.
Who is Kate Bishop's aunt, another leader in question I to know,
Trey: well, it's the truest lingering question of all,
because it's out of the section.
Sean: I was going to say this, a lot of people speculated.
It was going to be a.
Oh, what's her name?
It's exceeding my mind now, Val.
Yes.
A lot of people were speculating is going to be valid and I actually could
see that, but what's interesting is that there's an Easter egg in there.
That's a throwback to the comics where when you see Kate watching TV in the
background, there's a movie poster.
And I forget the name of the actress that's featured in that, but that's
actually a character in the comics.
And she's, I think only in, for one issue.
And what's interesting is that she's in that one issue because, um,
she owns this like Manson or this estate and she's selling it and the
Avengers are interested in buying it.
So they send Clint and, um, Bobby Morris, who was his wife at the time
to go and talk to her about buying it.
And then.
Trick shot or, or somebody like that came in, um, and was
trying to kill the Avengers.
And then she, actually, that actress actually tried to save
them and she ends up dying for it.
And what's funny is when you read the description of this character,
uh, they said that, you know, right before she died, Clint
made her an honorary adventure.
And can you imagine, like, someone's dying?
Like, you know, there's just like at the last breath, you're like, I,
you know, I Knight you in a venture.
Like I would've been like that.
That means nothing now, you know?
Sorry.
I just said to have to, I apologize, but, you know,
Trey: listen, I too would like to forget that,
Sean: but, but I thought, I think it's really interesting, like how
they put that Easter egg in there, but yeah, I think it's fascinating how
that's her aunt's apartment and you think that there would be more to it.
Maybe there will be in later, but I think they left it ambiguous enough.
So that way people have fun with the theories, but they don't
have to answer the question.
I think that's, what's a lot of fun about.
Doing something like that is you can like, let people's imagination and Riley,
you never have to confirm it, you know?
Yeah.
Trey: Well, thank you for the extra lingering question there, but you
know, I, I think we're getting pretty close to wrapping this up.
So I want to end this with this question and we can start with you, Jude, what
was your favorite episode of the season?
Jude: Oh man, I'm going to have to go all of the no,
Trey: no, you wasted that trip last week.
Jude: Uh, yeah, no, it's just, it's a tough, it's a tough question.
Cause, cause like episode three is so good with the action sequences,
uh, and the interrogation, but um, I'm going to have to go.
You know, as much as I, the one I kept going back to was with,
um, Elaina and Kate and that, and that conversation they had.
And so it, so what was it?
Episode five.
Yeah.
Five where I just went and rewatched that scene and rewatched that
scene and rewatched that scene.
So yeah, episode five, I think was my favorite.
Trey: Yeah.
It's as, as much as you have quoted that scene, I couldn't imagine any
other episode taking that top spot.
Sean: Well, I will say actually to what you said, Jude episode three
is my favorite episode of all them.
And, um, you know, that's entitled, it goes and it's written by
Kate Mathews, entertainer being and directed by Burton birdie.
And I just absolutely love it.
Cause I think it was just a masterpiece of an episode because just like what you
said, it had a great action scene, great writing with, you know, introducing my.
And introducing her as a person in the first 10 minutes, like fantastic,
because you're able to kind of set up who she is growing up and what her
backstory is, and then be able to just go right into, into the show with that.
He had a sense of who that character is.
The action was great.
The selection of music, the Christmas music that they played underneath
it with the song for the, yeah.
But in the Nutcracker and the pacing of it, like just match what the music so
well, like they just did a fantastic job with the accent sequence that, you know,
that heartbreaking scene when Clinton, Kate, and not all, or a nasal talking.
Um, and you know, Nate is just saying to me, yeah, If he can't
make it to Christmas, that's okay.
And you know, Clint's having that breakdown and, you know, and as a father,
like I, anytime there's a kid involved.
Yeah.
You immediately think about your kid and I will tell you this.
I cried when I first saw that and I continued to cry every time I
watch that scene because it was a stat, it was that moving of a scene.
And I think it was just sort of a fantastic job.
So that one will always be my number one episode of not just this series,
but of all the projects that they've had of all the Marvel shows on Disney plus.
Yeah.
Trey: You know, I'm so glad that I am following you on this one, because
you have made my job a lot easier because for almost all the reasons
you have stated episode three is my favorite of the series as well.
And I even said it when that episode came out, that episode
three of Hawkeye is not just the best episode of the series so far.
It is among the best of all the Disney plus shows so far.
And I full heartedly believe that.
And, and there's two things to add on to what you said.
Uh, cause I mean you echoed pretty much everything that I wanted to talk.
I'm a sucker for the story circle.
And the fact that that episode begins with Kate and Clint captive and being
at odds and not a cohesive partnership to the end where they're captive once
more, but they have learned how to be a team like the way that they get to that
point within that episode is fantastic.
And it evens, it starts with the exiting, the KB toy shop.
It speaks so much, there's so many ways they do this, but it speaks so much
to who they are as characters that as they're looking for a getaway car, Kate
gets so excited about the charters.
Like, Hey, we can take this.
And then it pans over to Clint who isn't the more realistic, like, no,
let's take this rent, gonna beat it up.
So you have on just a pure action level, the difference between the expectations
of Kate and the reality of Clint, and they just continuously do that
throughout the action sequences through.
Kate translating for Clint and with his son to the conversation that
diner of what Kate thinks being a superhero is versus what it actually is.
It is a beautiful
Sean: episode.
Yeah.
The, the, the writers just did a fantastic job with that episode.
Like I just, I cannot say enough great things about the writing on that.
So it's it's I agree completely
Trey: fantastic.
I, I gotta say this.
I, this went longer than I anticipated, but so worth it.
Cause I, I enjoyed this
Sean: a lot of fun.
Yeah.
Thank you very much.
I, and I'll be honest.
I know it's because of me, because I will go on and on about this series.
It's okay.
Don't be modest.
I know.
It's me.
It's, that's what it is.
That's the reality of it.
You don't try to, to give you an example.
When I did the little media reviews of like each episode of Hawkeye, I initially
said it was going to be 15 minutes.
I don't think any of them ran shorter than 45, you know, it's all me, so.
Thank you for having me on here.
I had a lot of fun and I had a blast talking to you all about Hawkeye.
I will talk about Hawkeye with anyone at any time, no matter what, and
this was just a blast to see what you all thought of it and have those
conversations I've been wanting to have.
And so this was just great.
Thank you very much.
Oh,
Jude: thank you for, for joining us.
Like I said, it's fun getting to nerd out.
That's that's the other thing we talked about the podcasting.
It's fun just to like, you have this, but there's moments like
you just, oh, you forget this and you just talk and so, yeah.
It's totally cool.
I love it.
Trey: Yeah.
Thank you so much.
And, and it doesn't need to be said, but the invitation is always open whenever
you want to come back on the show.
Let's
Sean: do it.
Yep.
Trey: Yeah.
And of course, if you're listening and you want to hear more of Sean's work, you
can find them at the Sean Holt on Twitter, and you can find his podcast at caption
life, both on Twitter and Instagram.
And while you're at it, make sure that you're subscribed to the
caption life podcast on pretty much every podcast platform.
Uh, around.
Yeah.
Sean: Yes, definitely.
Trey: As far as our show goes, if you want to get in touch with us and answer
some of the questions that we had within this wrap-up episode, you can find us on
Twitter and Instagram at MC you need to know we've been doing a lot more work to
put out some of the questions that we have in these outlines so that we can pepper
those into the show while we record.
So if you want to be part of that and helping shape the show, make
sure you're following us there and get in on that conversation.
Yeah.
Jude: And of course, always scroll down to the bottom of the show notes, click
on the discord link, where you can join us and at a wide range of people
to talk about Marvel tick, tick, boom.
Recently we just saw him, loves pictures of your pets, food, all kinds of stuff.
Please join us there.
And the best, some of the best things you can do for us.
Leave a rating and review apple podcast, Spotify, and share with
a
Trey: friend.
We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which is
his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You can buy more of his work on a SoundCloud, which is linked
in the show notes as well.
Well, that's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening, Sean, and you, and thank you so much
Sean: for doing this.
Thank you, Trey.
Thank you, Sean.
Thank you bill.
I really enjoyed this as a lot of fun.
We'll
Trey: see you all next week.
Did you not get it?
Sean: Let me double check.
You're not cool enough, man.
Trey: As much as I'd like to join on that, teasing, I have a history of
forgetting to send the yellow line to
Jude: this is not the first time.
So what will end up happening is, is he'll like work on the outline
and then he'll screenshot it to me in a text and I'll look at it.
And he's like, so what do you think?
And I'll just look at this, like, okay.
Yeah, it was great, you know, but then like it doesn't come across in the.
Sean: That's interesting.
Do you guys use Gmail for your email or?
Yes.
Trey: So I'll, so I have, uh, my own personal Gmail that I use.
That's where I'll create the outline and then I'll share it to the MCU EMC.
You need to know email, so Jude can have access to it without
clogging his personal one.
And yeah, but also too, if you are, you do have permission for it.
So I don't know why you're not
Jude: seeing, I have no idea, like what's going on.
I got it.
Now.
I just, I don't know what's going on.
Sean: Even Google doesn't think you're cool, man.
Jude: And you will, you will know this as, as teaching high schoolers, I've learned.
I'm okay.
Not being cool, like unbelievably comfortable.
Trey: I'm unbelievably comfortable with being uncool is the greatest sentence.
I think anybody's ever.