Trey: Hello and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and everything you need to know.
I'm Trey.
Jude: I'm Jude.
How you doing Trey?
Trey: Well, Jude, I'm excited because we get to welcome back someone who rivals
the editors for the most amount of Black Widow viewings, whether it's MCU deep
dives, top fives or stories summarized our guest is the mind behind every
episode of There Was an Idea, a Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast, and someone
we're happy to welcome back to the show.
Welcome TK!
TK: Hello.
Thank you for having me again.
You that intro, you nailed it.
You you've outdone yourself on the intro.
Trey: You know, after the, the, the praise that I got when I
was over on your episode, I was like, all right, here we go.
We got, we got to go to bat today.
TK: It's going to be a game now trying to one up each other.
Trey: Oh, I welcome it.
That'll be so much fun.
Jude: Oh yeah.
That'd be a lot of fun,
Trey: but yeah.
How's it going?
TK: It's going pretty well.
Yeah.
I'm really excited to be back on MCU.
Need to know and talking with both of you guys about what if
Jude: yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm just curious.
Has your, your school year start.
TK: Oh, yes.
Jude: Yeah.
I don't remember it longer than me, like before your summer break came on.
So I wasn't sure when you started exactly.
TK: That's right.
Yeah.
I started at the end of August.
Students came back early September, uh, even earlier than usual
this year, before labor day.
So it's been about a month and I am feeling it as I'm sure you relate to
getting used to the feeling in your body.
Again, the rhythm of the waking up early and the commute.
And even if you're working over the summer, it doesn't feel the
same as when you're really in the rhythm of the school year.
So it's been exhausting, but it's been good.
Trey: Well, you know, as the intro would to you are the host of, there
was an idea, uh, lately you've been doing what if coverage, but
you've been doing it in bulk.
Uh, I was wondering if you could let our listeners know how that's
been going and, uh, what you've been doing in those in-between episodes
when you're not covering what is
TK: yeah.
So as you said, my coverage of what if has been a little bit different than my
coverage of the other Disney plus shows?
Since I started the podcast last summer, it's kind of gone through a few different
evolutions of what the podcast is because like you guys, I started when
I was looking back on installments, any MCU that had, that we were familiar
with that had come out many years ago.
And then once we started getting the.
New content upon new content and early 2021, it shifted into week,
two week coverage of what was new.
So with what if for a few different reasons, it's kind of just gone in a
different direction where two or three episodes at a time with a different guest.
And I'm trying to bring some new voices in who have a particular lens that might
enhance the discussion of the, what if episodes, because as I've talked about
on my show, I have brought up against a couple of things with the, what if show?
Not that I haven't enjoyed it, but I've been thinking about the
way that I'm discussing it because it's different than my approach to
the other installments of the MCU.
So.
That being said, I have put out episodes covering episodes one through eight, just
as you said, in chunks and on the weeks that I'm not doing that, I've branched
out a little bit and have done some other episodes where I have, for example,
recently I did an MCU top five episode where I gathered a bunch of people who
have been guests on my show over the past year plus, and we talked about our
top five favorite characters and our top five favorite movies in the MCU.
I also did an episode where I talked about the, uh, my, my favorite needle drops
in the MCU music moments in the MCU, uh, with you guys, we did an MCU movie draft.
So it's been fun to, in addition to doing the coverage of whatever new
content is out to also be able to do those other fun format episodes.
And of course, with the new movies that are coming out as well, what I've
decided to do is, uh, first impressions.
Quick, 20, 30 minute, just me on the microphone, fresh
out of the movie theater.
And then after a few weeks, uh, deep, uh, deeper dive analysis into the film.
And most recently I was joined by you for the chunky episode.
Yeah.
Trey: So much fun to get to do.
Yeah.
TK: That was a blast.
And as you mentioned, that was my longest
Trey: episode to date.
Sorry.
Yeah, it was, it was so
Jude: much, you all did great.
It was so much fun to listen to.
Thanks,
TK: Jude.
Yeah, I, and you're not off the hook either, because train, I got to talk
about his top five movies when we had the shonky discussion, but you and
I haven't had that discussion yet.
So we're going to have to find a time to have you on my show
and incorporate that in there.
Jude: Absolutely.
I'm game I'm game.
And I really, really enjoyed the other two.
Your, your top five, I liked the way you mixed in the old guests.
And I really enjoyed the needle drop and I'm waiting for.
Your MCU, Spotify playlist.
Yes.
TK: Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned that because that was the next thing that I
was thinking of when I I'll be honest.
I thought about doing a tie in playlist to advertise that episode
and just didn't get around to it.
But I have another idea coming up for a tie-in with thinking
about a playlist for particular.
Characters in the MCU.
So keep an eye out for that.
Trey: That's wonderful.
That's awesome.
Thanks.
Well, you know, if I am a hypothetical new listener to your show, is there
any particular episode that you would recommend as a great starting point?
This is such
TK: a great question because it reminds me of the, how do
you get people into the MCU?
Do you do release order or do you do the chronological watch or something else?
So I was thinking about it and I think similarly, there are a couple
different ways you could approach the, there was an idea podcast.
And one of the things I set out to do from the very beginning was to try to capture
the spirit of the MCU by allowing each of my episodes to have its own flavor
depending on the guest for the week.
But even if the guests themselves are very different and bring different
perspectives in to make sure that it is.
Part of a cohesive whole, so that's been my goal all along.
So thinking about that, I guess the two strategies that I think I
would recommend if, uh, if somebody has heard me on your show before,
but has never gone and listened.
What I might recommend is to just dive into the episode that covers your
favorite MCU movie or your favorite episode of your favorite MCU show.
And, and hopefully you like it and you go from there.
Um, or I guess the other approach would be to start with some of those bonus
episodes, like the, uh, like the top fives, because that gives you a taste
for a few different guests who I've worked with multiple times, or since
you're listening to MCU need to know.
And you like Trey and Jude, maybe you start with the movie
Jude: draft.
Yeah.
That's, that's a good start.
And I like the idea of starting with the top fives and getting that.
Trey: Especially since it covered so many of the previous guests, that's a
great intro to your, the voices that there'll be hearing on the episodes.
TK: Yeah.
Thank you.
I mean, and I'm grateful if anybody wants to listen to any episode, I
would, I would absolutely appreciate that if you haven't already.
So thank you guys so much.
Trey: Yeah.
So of course we'll link to some of those in the show notes.
And if you're not already, you should definitely following TK on
Twitter, on Instagram at an idea underscore podcast and available on
apple podcast, Spotify and Stitcher, or wherever you download podcasts.
So we're about to dive into season one episode eight of what if, but
before we get there, we're going to try something new this week.
We're going to try and see if we can't live up to the MCU, need to
know name a where we have this new.
Uh, each week, Jude and I are going to be keeping an eye out for any news within
the MCU between our recordings and curate the one that we think you need to know.
So starting this week where you're going to do an article called MCU writer,
teases weirder, season two for marvels, what if it's written by Richard Nevins
and you can find it on the direct.
And it features a quote from the head writer of what if AC Bradley,
where she spoke on another podcast about what to expect in season two.
So she said, quote, season two is a lot of fun.
The training wheels come off and we get to do a little bit weirder Wilder.
There's one episode, which is probably the closest to my own
personality I've ever written.
It's heartfelt, it's full of action and bad nineties clothing choices.
So.
TK.
What do you think about season two?
Of what if getting weirder?
TK: I am 100% down for it to get weirder, and I hope that by weirder it encompasses
different types of weird, right?
Like the party Thor, weird with just a bunch of bizarre cameos
and absurdity and silliness.
And then some of the weirdness that we've seen in other places
over the course of what if with, with some of the very dark tone.
So I'm very much looking forward to it.
And I'm very curious about the nineties clothing choices.
Trey: That's gotta be captain Marvel, right?
Jude: Um, Marvel, maybe the X-Men.
Oh, Yeah.
I mean, it's what if at this point you own the property.
Trey: I love that the X-Men are coming.
Is the drum that you continue to beat,
Jude: but no, like, like, like I'm imagining, like multi-verse
pull in the old X-Men from, uh, the nineties animated cartoon.
Wow.
It's already like you don't and you don't have to tie and worry about like who's
casting and stuff and just bring them in.
Yeah.
Trey: That'd be so cool.
Yeah.
Right.
I, you know, I, I'm definitely down for, for weirder.
I remember there was this, I can't remember if it was a rumor or if it
was just, you know, something that was led out during press releases, but
apparently there was going to be an episode that was featured on Peter Parker,
where instead of becoming Spiderman, he turned into an actual spider.
Like that sort of weird is what I would love to see in this.
What if so, uh, yeah.
I'm, I'm down for it to kind of take the training wheels off.
Yeah.
TK: I would love if we went a little bit into that horror vein a little bit more
too, especially knowing that we have some characters coming up in the MCU in live
action, like blade and moon night, if we, and the zombies episode I thought was, was
really fun and dark and weird in that way.
And I think it'd be cool if we see a little bit more of that.
So Peter Parker as a spider just had.
Absurd Kafka S you know, body horror to it.
That would be so cool.
Trey: Yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
Trey: Well, cool.
So like we said, this was going to be a new segment, uh, just
a little bit of a news update.
We think you need to know.
Uh, so yeah, of course we are going to be diving into season one episode eight
of what if though, and it is entitled.
What if Ultron one and the way we're going to do this, as we've got some preschooler
thoughts followed by an audio sound, which will take us into the spoiler zone, but
before we get there, TK, do you have any pre spoiler thoughts for this episode?
TK: Yeah, just to say that I really, really liked this episode.
I felt like the stakes have been raised, and I really appreciated the
choice of the characters, especially throughout the series of what if I
feel like what I've been able to latch onto when I have had some instances.
Reactions to the show has been the character of the watcher
and the development of the watcher as a through-line.
So without getting into post spoiler thoughts, I did enjoy, uh, seeing
where his story went in this episode.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jude: What about you, dude?
Um, I'm going deal with someone I told you on the phone this afternoon.
Um, I mean, it's been well-documented I was not a fan of party Thor episode,
so I, I just feel like, you know, if you imagine the party Thor episode and
do a complete 180 and that's what this episode was, and I don't know, it just,
and then the one we posted, you know, kind of set it in a different way.
I just, I felt like it really found it sh the show, the series really
found its stride and the, uh, Dr.
Strange episode and the zombie episode, and then just kinda like stumbled.
You know, with the parties or, and, and here, it, it really
kind of found itself again,
Trey: for me, uh, sticking to what we shared on social media.
I it's, it's been the same here, the well-documented up and down
nature of this season and, and the way that I've been receiving it.
But man, I, I am cautiously optimistic about this episode
and the remaining one to come.
Uh, it's funny.
We have that group message with friend Daniel, where friend Daniel
put in there and he's like, man, I guess I'm the odd man out this time.
And he said that any critiques he had is really critiques about what if
and not this episode in particular.
And the reason that I wanted to reiterate that here is because I think he's a lot
closer to what I was feeling and stated it so wonderfully that like the baggage
that I think this episode has really has nothing to do with the episode itself.
And so even though that feels weird, Like to have to still carry the
weight of what has come before.
I still think that it did a fairly well, and you know, another thing
that I put out on social media on my personal account is that I feel like
this episode is the blueprint for what I want from the series, if it's going
to tackle more serious storylines.
Um, and really, uh, cause Jude, I mean, it's, it's so funny.
These last two weeks with Eric, the Killmonger episode, I didn't like it.
Party Thor episode, you didn't like it here.
This genuinely felt like an episode that is a compromise between the two things
that we were looking for from the show.
And, uh, I think I'll leave it there until we get into the spoiler zone.
Yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
You're no longer ready for.
Trey: Yeah, I I'll be safe for the next two weeks of beating that drum.
Oh, well those are our pre spoiler thoughts.
So like we said, uh, you're going to hear an audio cure.
And on the other side, it will be fair game for all spoilers in the MCU,
except Shung cheat, which as a bit of a quick programming note, uh, Jude and
I talked about this, uh, rather than saying that she's, she is exempt from
the spoilers don't every week we're gonna make this one last statement and
just kind of let people know that shank Chine the legend, the 10 rings will be
available to stream on November 12th.
And so a week after that date is when we will bring Sean T
back into the spoiler zone.
So we'll, we'll make sure that guests know that that that is
exempt from the spoiler zone.
Uh, but we're just.
Keep me from having to say it every week.
But, uh, but yeah, so like we said, spoiler sound and, uh,
we'll see you on the other side
and we're back.
So we will be breaking this down into three acts and act one is going to
begin with that opening sequence where Clint and Natasha are running from
the Ultron bots all the way through infinite old trons rise to power,
where he becomes aware of the watcher.
Uh, so Tara, if we could start with you, where would you like
to start within this first act?
TK: Oh man.
Well, I immediately was struck by the Watcher's narration.
Uh, again, it seems like each episode we see the watcher as more of a focal
point, not just in this case very much so in the storytelling itself,
but just even on the screen, right.
Opening.
His face and in more detail than we've seen it before, it seems like it's,
he's gradually getting closer to us and gradually getting more detailed.
And I believe that's something that you guys have talked about already as well.
So he starts off this episode.
He's talking about, you know, we've seen this before, it's this universe
and it's finals days before its destruction, but this one breaks my heart.
And I thought that was just like, Ooh, what a way to start.
So I was immediately, I was immediately like, okay, I'm in this.
This is great.
I like that.
We're picking up with where we were at last week in terms of those
stakes, in terms of the watcher, having more the watcher, having a
more human reaction to things, right?
Like we saw that at the end of episode seven.
And then we see that to open this one up.
Jude: Let me ask you, cause this was my first note, um, as well, I felt like it
implied that he'd already seen this story before to say, did you get that feeling?
TK: Yeah, I, my take on this was that there's the watcher narration.
That is assuming a place of this has all played out and I'm telling you the story.
And then there's the character of the watcher who we see going
through it later on in the episode.
But that those are not, that they're two different Watchers,
but that it's the watcher from two different perspectives, I guess.
Jude: Okay.
Okay.
I dunno.
TK: Yeah.
What did you make of that?
Jude: Well, I guess it made me wonder on the second watch and I know we're in
the first action, not the third act and I'm jumping all the way to the end, I
guess, or middle I'm already asking maybe the end of this act, but it's like, I'm
wondering like, did it go differently this time because of the way the narration
went and then he was discovered and he realized that discovery was hitting.
So that's, that's what it made me wonder in the second watch of like,
oh, he's seen this before, but this time something different happened
that he didn't see the last time.
Trey: You know, I going into this, when you were asking your question, I
really didn't have too many thoughts on it, but you just sparks an idea.
Um, I don't know if I've stated this on the podcast, I'm fairly certain I've,
I've at least texted you my personal head cannon for why this is all happening.
Is these events like it started off with that episode one with
captain Carter, where it was fairly contained, he knew what was going on.
Everything was pretty familiar with what we knew of the first Avenger movie.
And gradually the season has shown us getting a little
bit more and more out there.
My personal theory is that because of the events of low-key things used to
happen out in a particular way, but now that the TVA is essentially gone.
This is why we're seeing things completely break free in the multi-verse, which
I think would explain to what you were talking about, where this is a story
that was supposed to play out one way and then changed on the watcher,
which is what caught him by surprise.
So that, to me, info sizes, that feeling that I'd been having as my own
little theory throughout the series.
Jude: Well, and it also makes sense of, you know, as we've been saying,
the watcher has gotten more involved.
Trey: You know, I do want to say this on top of the comment of the Watchers saying
this one in particular breaks my heart.
The thing that I think works so well for this episode is.
Putting Natasha and Clint together against these Ultron bots was such a great way
to just get us on the ground running with this episode, uh, you know, Clinton,
Natasha infamously, not the most powered individuals within the MCU, but the thing
that I think works for them is they are always that stand in for holding onto
hope in the face of insurmountable odds.
So it, it has that already going for a, just by playing around
with these two characters.
But the thing that I think it excelled at was creating this a world
that feels like, that felt like it was lived in, which is something.
Um, I want to kind of go back through the series and keeping an eye out for a
little bit more, but I for sure have felt that feeling in the child episode, where
I talked about the collector, stepping into the power vacuum of Stanos or the
zombies episode where Peter Parker makes his, how to survive the zombie apocalypse
video, like little moments like.
Help to sell that this is a believable universe.
And for this episode in particular, it was such a simple thing.
But having hoc, I have that mechanical arm, like immediately upon seeing that
I was like, okay, what happened there?
What was the story that led him to that?
And I thought they were just excelling in all those very economical,
micro, visual storytelling.
TK: Yeah, I absolutely agree.
And it's funny.
I was talking with the guests that I worked with last night on my show,
Michael Tanner, the episode that I did with him, I just put out today
the day of this recording actually.
So it will be out by the time this is published, but regardless we thank you.
And, uh, regardless we were talking about the movie age of Ultron and one
of the things that he said that he's always appreciated about age of Ultron.
And I love the way that he put this is that it starts off in this, lived in world
where you're thrown into this action.
And it feels like the Avengers have been hanging out and doing adventure.
Since the first Avengers movie, it feels like you're kind of just dropped into this
world and there's no big setup of, you know, why they're back together again.
I mean, obviously there's a reason as to why they're back together again, but it,
that, it just feels very much like this is a thing that happens, the Avengers
hang out and they do these things.
And, um, and I, what you were saying, trade made me think of that, right?
Because even in this animated format where we're thrown into the action
and we see those details that show us, oh, Natasha and Clint are friends.
They have this established relationship.
This is a world where they've been in this already.
And I think that worked out really well.
And I alluded to it in my preschooler thoughts too, but.
I love that this episode chose to focus on those two as the last hope.
And those two as the last heroes here, because they are not the gods.
They are not the super soldiers.
They are the ones who are more human, um, in, in the way that
they operate in the world.
And I think that was.
The thesis statement of this episode is it's that idea of, of humans having hope.
And, and he says later in the episode, the watcher says something like, get up,
you're human, the worst of odds, right?
Like I just love that.
Get up.
You're human.
Um,
Trey: that's going to be my new daily affirmation in the mirror.
TK: I want to use that on my students that, and when, when he's so exasperated
by the fact that the box with Armand Zola's file and it is right next to them.
And he's like, the answer is right there.
That was relatable to me.
Um, but yeah, all that to say that I, I also really enjoyed that the focus
here was on Hawkeye and black widow.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
Pretty amazing that, like, I, I just had a note.
It was just like, yeah.
For humans only Natasha and cleaner, pretty.
Yeah, I, you know, just wanting to trade, he said, you
wondered where he got the arm.
I wonder where he got one of the definitely hollows, like
TK: what was up with that?
Jude: Right?
Like we never, we've not seen anything like that at all.
Not even stark has used like stealth technology.
I don't know.
Trey: Well, it was, um, an Ironman three, the little boy in the garage.
He was like, oh yeah, you should use the stealth, uh, display for your suit.
And Tony's like, that's not a bad idea.
I'll think about it.
And I guess he never got around to doing it.
TK: It's funny.
I think that the Quinjet is in stealth mode at some point,
but yeah, that was bizarre.
And he just does, he does it once and then that's it.
Jude: Right?
Trey: That's one of those things where like, if this was a video game, you
know, that invincibility cloak is on a cool-down for such a long time.
So maybe that's why he didn't use it.
Jude: Here's one use.
And that was it.
Trey: But no, I think I'm right there with you dude, like literally verbatim.
It's a shame.
We never got more awesome adventures.
And Natasha and Clint, like this episode showed like I could have a whole series
of them, even if it's in, what if universe, a whole series of them going
on their missions and adventures because they just worked so well together.
Uh, especially here in this opening, which again, to me, this, this opening with
Natasha and Clint, I think is the promise of what the age of Ultron trailer was
putting forth because that trailer was incredibly dark and incredibly menacing.
And the movie is a little bit more, um, lighthearted.
Not that doesn't feel the right way.
It was more comical, I guess.
And even though I like it, this heavy foreboding feeling of Ultron bonds is
what I was hoping for after that trailer.
So I'm glad we got a taste of it here in this universe.
You know
Jude: what, let none that you say that I want to ask Tara question.
Cause that's, I feel like you're in a unique position to answer that.
As a puffy fan.
Do you think that that feeling and age of Ultron that trade was talking about
has to do with Josh Weeden style versus like mark Christopher, Marcus McFeely
who wrote, who wrote the other entries?
TK: I think so.
Um, in fact, as Trey was talking about it, I was thinking to
myself, well, he just Wheaton did.
Um, which, you know, again, I huge Buffy fan and, and I've been a big fan
of other projects from Wheaton as well.
And I think, uh, to Joss Wheaton, it is not necessarily always a negative term.
Um, we were talking, we were talking about his storytelling and his
writing, some of his personal stuff, probably that, yeah, that's not good.
Um, but when, uh, yeah, I, I really appreciate the, we didn't ask
aspects of Avengers and of age of Ultron, but I do feel like the.
Moments.
There's the moments of levity.
You guys talk about this all the time.
There's the moments of levity that work really well, that don't
detract from the storytelling.
And then there are sometimes moments of levity or moments that do take you out.
Like there are absolutely some jokes in age of Ultron that don't feel in place.
And that like this episode, for example, to what you're saying, Trey, this
episode has some moments of levity.
It has black widow and Hawkeye kind of like, you know, jabbing at
each other in a fun sort of way.
And it has even the watcher, you know, being like, what the hell?
And you know, so it has, it has these funnier moments, but it
doesn't, the tone is just different.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm curious, do your thing.
You know, part of me, you know, I like that, you know, it's what if,
and this made me think, what if, uh, a lot different ways could Ultron
have beat the anos that easily,
Trey: that has been the talk of the internet.
And I don't know, like it's, I see what the episode's going for, because
we talked about like the way Clinton, Natasha pairing is a shorthand.
We know who those characters are.
We know what the relationship's like.
So it sells that beginning, the Thanos moment.
It's like, okay, this is a shorthand to show how powerful Ultron is
because they do away with them.
I think the moment that, that lost me, speaking of like levity and not
feeling right, was the way he split.
There was something that was too cartoonish about it.
And it was just like, ah, that, that took me out of it for a second.
Yeah.
I don't know if that answered your question, but that's, that's where
I immediately went with that scene.
TK: Yeah.
I feel like with that scene, it definitely made me laugh.
And I don't know if, if that's what they were going for or not, but I took
it the same way you did as like seeing the infinity stone paperweights in
low-key like seeing banjos in a different role in to Chella Star-Lord episode.
What we're kind of seeing is the MCU saying banjos is not the end all be all.
Banjos is not the biggest threat.
The infinity stones are not the biggest threat.
And like you said, kind of that shorthand to just say this, the stakes are higher
than this, but that being said, you know, at that moment it didn't completely
work for me just because he still had five out of the six infinity stones.
And I feel like, I dunno, I don't think that Dan would have been
that trusting in his approach.
Okay.
Ultron.
I don't know.
It was, it was silly,
Jude: right?
None of them.
And that was my thought too.
It was just like, cause you had that scene in infinity war where they all came out
of him and he used the stone, um, various stones to, to get them out of the way.
And I just thought, okay, that was kind of a, how do we get infinity stones, the
vision Ultron quick, you know, and, and relying on the shorthand of it makes sense
that Santos would show up with stones.
TK: Right?
Well, and speaking of shorthands too, I feel like having captain Marvel in
here also, and I really love captain Marvel as a character, but I was a little
surprised to see her in here as well.
And I was very much sort of like, oh, okay.
Having captain Marvel.
And here is again, sort of the shorthand for like, this is how powerful Ultron is.
Captain Marvel is not going to be.
Off world, captain Marvel is going to be, you know, if I have to face off with him
and you know, she is not powerful enough
Trey: either.
Yeah.
Cause I mean, the way that plays out, like it's midway through the episode or
maybe not even midway, but it's like, oh, you know, here comes captain Marvel.
She's got them pinned down and it looks like she's going to win.
And then he's like, you know, you've already lost.
Or he says something to that extent.
And then he just immediately does a way where there this one, I think worked
a little bit more than the Thanos shorthand because it was like, oh, okay.
You know, uh, for a moment maybe, maybe it seems like there'll be some sort of
conflict where captain Marvel stalls them enough throughout the episode.
But then it was like, oh no, she's gone.
He's completely one.
Where are we going from here?
So, yeah, it's it's I guess what I'm feeling now is just like we've within this
first act, we got three different examples of the way they're using shorthand.
And it's interesting to see the varying degrees of effectiveness.
TK: I just want captain Marvel, like to get a little bit more of her own, and
I know the marvels is coming up, but I think throughout what if she's been
kind of used in that same sort of way of like, oh, we're going to put captain
Marvel in here to show how serious the threat is or to show how, you know, it's
to show how powerful other people are.
Um, because she's so powerful.
So she's our shorthand for like the most powerful person to fight, uh, who
was, you know, on the good guy team.
Um, so I'm, I'm just looking forward to some captain Marvel stories that have
a little bit more nuance and allow her character to, to be a little bit more,
um, you know, see what makes her tick and, and be a little bit more personal to her.
Jude: No, you're right.
Because I don't, I mean, stepping outside of the, what if, and this is
a place you could do it, you know, explore that with, and they really
haven't done that, but otherwise we've only seen captain Marvel in her movie.
Yeah.
I mean, like I know showed up in.
Right, but it was just, um, so quick, right at the beginning of the year
end and you really don't get much.
Trey: Yeah.
Well, Hey, maybe, maybe that's what was being teased after
all with the nineties fashion.
And hopefully it is something we'll get more, uh, Danvers front and center.
Cause, uh, there's definitely definitely stories to tell there.
Totally.
You know, I do want to say this.
Um, cause I mentioned the priest.
What other thoughts do you and I, uh, within these last two weeks have been on
polar opposites of the reception to these.
What if episodes?
And I mentioned that this episode felt like the compromise between
what we wanted out of this series.
I wanted to highlight the thing that I think works so well for me and feels
like that bridge between me and you is we started from a familiar place,
but it took a less than a minute to cover the ground with which we were
going to be covering because they had like that, that cinematic, well,
not cinematic, that, that overview narration of what happened in ages
Vultron but then it poses the question.
Okay.
But what if Ultron won?
And we got to see that buildup to, you know, him succeeding and launching
the nukes and getting us to the present day within the storyline.
And I thought that was such a very effective way to get that
familiarity while also launching us into something completely new
in such a minimal amount of time.
Jude: Well, it makes me wonder if they were to rename the Killmonger episode.
Like, like, I dunno, I don't want to get off on that tangent, but at the
same, but at the same thing, Where it's like the name of the episode
is what of Killmonger save Tony?
And that ran its course so fast.
And then it's like, what's left.
But if you would've just titled it would have killed monger one, you know,
then you like that you, you don't, you might not feel like it ran its course.
So I'm just, and I, and I get, you don't want two episodes with
the same name, like, like that.
Um, Hmm.
Interesting.
Trey: Yeah.
It's interesting to see the way a simple framing can, can
alter alter the, uh, reception.
Jude: Oh my gosh.
So my students, we used to have assignments that we would
just call like journals and wouldn't really get good work.
I literally, one year we just changed the title from journals to position paper.
Didn't change the assignment.
And all of a sudden, Ooh, position paper.
And they would like, the quality went way up.
Trey: That's interesting.
Jude: Yeah.
It's crazy.
Finally, one student noticed and he was like, we're not really giving a position.
I was like, no, but you do better work with it.
So
Trey: that's great.
Well, you know, I think we're getting close to the end of the act, but
I think we got one more thing to talk about before we get there.
Uh, Tara, what did you think of Ultron becoming aware of the watcher and the
watcher narrating it as it happened?
TK: I loved it.
I thought that was great.
I, you know, for a moment I was like, okay, I'll try and is achieving
what he wants to achieve by.
Nuking every corner of the universe.
And that was kind of cool that we got to see the different
planets that he was attacking.
Um, and then we'll, what's going to be left, right?
He's going to just sort of be alone and what comes next.
Uh, and then you have the watch you're saying, you know, he's
ascended to this previously on a tape obtainable level of consciousness.
And that moment when I'll try to hear as the watcher, it, it was
funny to me, like, but not in a bad way, it was just kind of like, oh,
of course this is what happens next.
Right?
Like, um, I, yeah, I thought it was great.
I've seen everything that has ever happened ever will
happen ever could happen.
And yet what the hell is
Trey: this
such a great quote?
Yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
So, I mean, honestly, I was curious, it was like, who
was the watcher narrating to?
And then it dawned on me.
It's like, oh, so.
They're truly narrating to us, like breaking the fourth wall.
So we are in the MCU or it's all just a simulation.
Trey: What do you think?
Uh, I think I gotta go y'all two can take it from here, but no, you know, I, I
was talking to Jude earlier on the phone and I'm glad you brought this up, dude.
It's so wild.
The, the conversations that have spurred from the MCU now dealing
in the multi-verse because I was in the Marvel studios.
And there was somebody who was vehemently arguing.
Technically we're part of the MCU now.
And it's just like, it's like, it's funny how far you can really take this if you
want, but to back up the person's claim, dude, I think you're kind of right.
I mean, who else is the watcher narrating to?
If not us,
TK: he even says, like, I noted it in this episode.
And I think this was the first episode that he uses this word.
I could be wrong, but he specifically says in your universe and he talks
about how the Avengers were able to take, uh, you know, vision's body.
Um, then he goes, but in this universe and I was like, Ooh, the
use of the, your there very much puts the viewer in this like, okay.
Art is, so is he saying that we, as viewers are part of what Loki
called the sacred timeline, you are the prime timeline of the MCU.
And what is, what does that mean if they're acknowledging
that in a medicine sort of way?
Jude: Yeah, I think you're right.
I think that's the first time he said, you're you.
Trey: It's definitely a line that stands out for sure.
But, you know, I, I did want to say this before we move into the next
act, you know, you were talking about him realizing his purpose,
achieving everything, finding peace.
When he was standing on that rock, I almost felt sorry for him.
There was something about like that idea of him, like a program
completing its mission and then just having nothing else to do.
And it looks like he's about to just kind of power down.
And then that's when he gets, gets notice of the watcher, the, the,
the ideas they're playing with their, I don't know, it's both like.
Empathizing with him and also horrifying at the same time, which is a weird
spot to be in with this episode.
Oh,
TK: totally.
I mean, if you think about horror, right?
Like the horror genre, the best or the most terrifying villains or ideas
in horror are those things that feel familiar and what scares people more
than actually like the idea of getting what they, you know what I mean?
And not having that purpose anymore, I'm telling you, man, like more and
more that I'm convinced that the big idea of phase four is about purpose
because it keeps coming up and they talk about it a lot in this episode.
Trey: Yeah.
That definitely tracks
Jude: glorious purpose.
It's a soul.
Trey: Well, unless there's anything more, I think we can go
ahead and move into the next act.
So this act is going to take us from Clint and Nat arriving at the
KGB archives as they're searching for information about Zola.
And it will take us all the way through the scene where they're in Siberia,
escaping from the Ultron bots, with Zola and Clint sacrifices himself, so
that Natasha and Zola can get away.
So starting with you this time, Jude, uh, is there anywhere you'd like to start?
Jude: You know what, okay.
I, I'm going to start here even though I have better places to start.
Um, but my very first note Raiders of the lost Ark, such a good movie, too bad.
Trey.
Hasn't seen it.
I have.
Oh really?
Oh, wow.
Oh man.
That's obviously a shock
Trey: man.
I'm sorry to steal your thunder here, but I have seen, or so the last,
Jude: no, that's great.
That's that's fantastic.
Um, you know what, and actually, so let me, let me go ahead and go from there
and just say, this was a note and I was going to save it for stray thoughts.
Um, but I think this is a good place to say it.
I cause cause you get it in the first act and you get it.
Definitely the second, second act as well.
This was such a good, this episode was such a good balance of the
old and new, and I think that's why both of us ended up liking it.
Um, because you have that the callback to winter soldier, right?
You have, but then the call back to, um, in terms of location Siberia with civil
war, Um, it follows in, you know, that Spider-Man tradition of an MCU tradition
really of referencing other movies, you know, with the, the death star plans.
You're not in the main computer.
Um, although my ten-year-old her eyes got really wide and desktop that star
wars, star wars part of the Avengers, and then she started to think it could
be technically like, um, but yeah, so I just love, love seeing those places
again, but, but in this time it felt very fresh and not rehashed, so to speak.
Trey: Yeah.
It, it felt like a proper remix and it makes sense that if this, what if is.
Taking what, like the pieces we know, because I don't think you can do
a, what if and left unless you have an established to contrast against.
So it takes things that we are familiar with, but turns them new.
Um, and I think this episode succeeded in that, and it makes me want to reevaluate
some of the harsher criticisms that I've given Killmonger, because it's, I don't
think it's enough for me to just say like, oh, I want something completely new
because this isn't technically completely new, but it still worked for me.
Yeah.
TK: Yeah.
I loved seeing Natasha with the red guardians.
Trey: Oh, yeah.
You know, before we started recording and you said, oh, I'm so glad that
we're doing this episode together.
The reason the moment that came to mind, as soon as you said that was exactly this.
Cause I was so excited to see what you thought about that moment.
Jude: Yeah.
Well I'm so I'm sure, willing to bet Tara has the same note as I do what a post.
TK: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Oh man.
So good.
Uh, well, you know, as you've already mentioned, I've basically
changed my Twitter handle to black widow fan girl, 2021,
Natasha, R I P E um, uh, yeah, we're in the spoiler zone,
so spoilers friend gamer.
Okay.
Um, but uh, yeah, no, I, I, I loved, I love.
That note of seeing her with the shield and to the points that
you guys were making before.
And, and I, I love the way that you brought that up Jude, cause I hadn't
really thought of it in that way, but that's what makes it, where, what if has
succeeded or in those moments where it's enough familiarity that you're, that
you feel comforted and you feel excited about being in these locations again
and, and seeing them recontextualize.
Um, but also to your point, Trey combined with the freshness.
So I think that, you know, seeing this little nod to certainly something from
the comics, but also, you know, those of us who are up-to-date with watching
phase four and have seen black widow to see that, uh, that nod to red guardian,
I thought it was, it was really awesome.
It was so cool to see her with the shield.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a lot more emotional than I was anticipate.
Like I'll be like, I got a, I unfortunately got spoiled for that moment.
Cause somebody had like mentioned like, oh, it was so cool getting
to see her pick up the shield.
And so I knew something similar was coming, but even knowing that, like
just seeing her with the shield and how, I mean, she looked happy with it.
Like it was just like, oh, this is, this is elevated by what we have seen
in black widow and also something on its own because this feels
like a different Natasha as well.
But those core elements of the character is still there.
And it just, it made me happy to see her with it.
If she becomes a mainstay past this episode, I hope that she keeps
that shield because it's, it's such a great look for black widow.
TK: Uh, we were talking about last night, my guest, Michael and I were talking about
how, and maybe we'll, we'll get to this later, but moving into the financial.
We have a sense of who we might be seeing assembled together to
come up against this, this threat.
And, uh, we were putting our bets on seeing Natasha with the
shield again in the next episode, but I guess we'll wait and see.
Trey: Here's hoping.
Jude: Yeah, I hope so.
No, I was going to say it's interesting that you mentioned that
she was happy to have a shield.
Like there was this familiarity and I guess in our universe, our timeline
prime timeline or whatever, I don't think she would have known about that shit.
At that point was she,
Trey: she may have known about it.
I don't think she would have been happy.
Um,
Jude: that's, that's probably a better way to put it,
Trey: so, yeah.
Uh, it's, it's more evidence of that lived in world.
Like, you know, the pieces, but here, like enough to see what's different.
Jude: So with the Tara, with the whole, you know, fangirl, micro fangirl
now, what did you think to, to see that the, basically a reenactment,
maybe a recreation of the, that end game sacrifice, but go the other way.
TK: I thought it was awesome.
And I think that.
This is another thing that what if allows for even if we aren't getting
an episode, that is what if Clint is the one who is sacrificed, as opposed
to Natasha, we still get to play with that a little bit within this episode.
That's not about that.
It's about something else.
And I really appreciate that because I don't think we want an
episode of what if it was Clinton set up Natasha and that that's the
moment that things are different.
I don't think it would work as well, but to see this play out, I think is something
that of course fans have wondered about.
I think it makes sense, right?
This is the universe in which Clint has already lost his face.
And he tells her I don't want to fight anymore.
And I thought that was absolutely powerful.
I loved the characterization of Clinton here.
Yeah.
And, uh, yeah.
And it, and not, it's not coming from a facetious place of it should have been
Clint, which I know is a thing that's out there and it, I, that's not how I feel
at all, but it was very, very satisfying to see a different version of that play
out that felt consistent with the world of this episode, which is not the same
world as the world of bang the game.
So I really liked
Trey: it.
Yeah.
Well, I got to say you, you put a piece together for me that didn't
click until just now, but you're right.
That this is a universe in which Clint has lost his family.
Like they make that, he makes that realization when he says Laura, as
he's watching all the bombs go off in the beginning of the episode.
So.
That we know how much that means to him in the prime universe, not having
it here, it's it fits with what the trajectory of his character is.
And, um, to, to speak about like, at least for me that this is another one
of those moments where, because it's a shorthand, um, I, I feel like they,
they borrow enough emotional weight from what we know to really sell
it for me, because it was, it was a hard moment watching them go for it.
And the way the shot is framed as he's like falling and all the Ultron
bots are coming down, but the light is like illuminating him just right.
Um, it's, it's such an incredible scene.
Jude: Well, in one of the things that I, that I really liked about it is it's it.
And we said this, um, I think in the very first episode and the
second where the person themselves like to challah is good, right?
And you see what happened, like, like him as a personality didn't change.
Um, Steve Rogers was Steve Rogers, even though he didn't have the syndrome.
And in that way, I, I felt like we kind of saw that with, um, Natasha and.
Clint, almost a Jeremy, uh, Natasha and Clint, you know, and, and the, like their
character still didn't change there.
They still had that, um, that care for each other, that,
that willingness to sacrifice,
Trey: you know, there's a moment that I want to zone in on as I think the
strongest moment of this episode for me, uh, Tara, you already alluded
to it a bit where the watcher was like, you know, very frustrated by
how close they were to the answer.
And yet they were kind of pushing it away.
You know, as much as this season has been about the watcher being like, I
could intervene, I could help, but I have sworn this oath and I will not do that.
I cannot do that to.
Have the pressure of infinite old Tron on his back while also in trusting the
fate of the multi-verse to these two, as we said, non superpowered humans.
And let that be the standard for the hope against all odds.
It's such a beautiful moment because even though we know how this episode
ends with all that pressure, the, the watcher still does not give in.
It shows humanity's resilience.
And that scene in particular just speaks volumes about everybody within that scene.
And so I, I think that ended up being one of my favorite scenes of this episode.
TK: Yeah.
I think that you stated that beautiful.
Did did either of you think that he was going to intervene there for a moment?
Trey: Yeah.
Jude: I completely thought this is, this is the moment that like, and I
don't know if I was, I don't know what I was expecting if I was expecting him
to like step into the world or maybe like make the box nudge, you know?
TK: Yeah.
I was wondering about that too.
Yeah.
To your point though, Trey, I'm glad that he didn't.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
I wouldn't say like that.
I mean, the way he to put it, I, that would have taken away.
I think a lot from this episode.
Trey: Right.
And I think that's the beauty of the scene, right?
It's like we've bent for better or worse.
We've been waiting for this moment all season.
So the fact that we, as the audience are like, yes, like, do
it intervene, finally, this is it.
And it still doesn't happen.
That is such great narrative tension that has been built in to this moment
that I think worked really well.
Jude: Well, and you also have that element of, if he did we leave Clinton a place
where he did, you know, fall to despair and give up, you know, and I don't, that
would not have been very satisfying.
Trey: Yeah.
I love how immediately childhood should be getting becomes where
he's like, Hey, that's my boss.
TK: Yeah.
I love that.
They kept up the banter, you know, even in this.
Hopeless situation or a situation that felt hopeless.
Right?
Uh, the fact that the two, those two characters, even he says a lie in my will
til they've meter is lining and it's so dark, but just, it was very, it felt very
Clint, you know, and in that moment I
Jude: thought it was great.
Yeah.
It really works.
Trey: Jeremy, Renner's got such a wonderful way of delivering over the top
lines, so straightforward that it sells it, that like, yeah, that, that line is
an example of him being able to pull that off and wonderfully, you know, cause we
we've talked about it before, how there is definitely a distinction between like
physical acting there and voice acting.
And I think.
He definitely accomplished that within the voice acting.
TK: Yeah, I thought he was fantastic and I also really liked lake bell as Natasha.
Um, I thought that in the first episode that she was in episode
three, it, it was a little jarring at first because you're expecting
Scarlet Johansen's voice and, and she didn't sound like Scarlett Johannson
to me in that third episode there.
Uh, so at first, you know, it takes a little bit getting used to any
of the characters that we've seen, who have in V who haven't been
voiced by the live action actor.
It's been the same, but I have to say, I, you know, in this episode I felt
very much like this is the Natasha that I know in love, but it is also
a different, a different universe.
And so there are these slight differences to who she is and this slight variation
in the voice didn't bother me at all.
I thought it was a great performance.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah, no, I think, I mean, just across all the, the entire series.
You know, it had that, that feeling.
Um, but this, uh, or you said the name like bell, uh, hers has been a standout,
Trey: I think.
And I'll have to reassess this, but emotionally coming out of this
episode, my thought, I think of the new voices to voice old characters
lake Bell's Natasha, I think is the one that has worked the most for me.
I think she has captured that spirit, um, a lot.
And she's, there's something to the cadence of Scarlet Johansen's, uh,
Natasha that she has brought to this character and is definitely is different.
And like you said, a bit jarring, but it feels like the character to me.
And so that's what I appreciate about her performance.
So, Tara, I do want to ask this because if I'm not mistaken, the original Avengers
is among your favorite MCU movies.
How did it feel to see Hawkeye bring out the USB arrow again?
TK: I loved it.
I loved that.
I loved that image.
It was fantastic.
Trey: Such an underlying under-utilized weapon.
He needs to bring that out more
TK: often.
Yes, that was, that was so great.
Oh yes.
I have so many Hawkeye thoughts now that I've been reading the, a
fraction math fraction comics too.
Oh, you picked that up.
Trey: Oh my goodness.
Jude: I love it.
Yeah.
And that is the whole Kate Bishop.
Yes.
Yeah.
I really would like to get a copy of that one.
Trey: I'm always so torn.
Like.
But I also want to experience anything potentially first in
the either TV show or movie.
And so it's always hard to pick, like when I can drop in on the CapEx,
TK: I can relate to that tray for sure.
I have to say it's working in my favor for my excitement for Hawkeye,
because I haven't always been like the hugest MCU Hawkeye fan.
Um, so to read the comics has gotten me very, very excited for the show
in a way that I am not entirely sure I would have been otherwise.
So good.
Oh, it's so good.
I might do.
Uh, it'll, it'll be spoiled for the comic, but I might do a, a bonus episode
for the podcast in which I talk about the comic or, or like, uh, getting
ready for Hawkeye preview episode in which I'll allude to the comic.
So excited to talk about it.
Yeah, that'd
Jude: be awesome.
And see, now another reason I got to get it and have it read, so I'm ready for.
Trey: Well, I think we got, well, I personally have one more thing to talk
about before we move into the last act.
Uh, and it's just something that I really want to praise about this episode.
Um, you know, we have that moment, we talked about that moment
where Clint sacrifices himself to stall for Zola and Natasha.
And we have that scene after Natasha's morning Clint a little bit, and she
turns to Zola and question why he wasn't able to successfully take on ultra.
And the way they build up that scene, we're Zola's like,
Hey look, I'm being honest.
Uh, according to my calculations, if you know, I should have been able to contract,
oh, contact Ultron, but wherever he is, it is not within the, the visible universe.
The way that in this act and leads us into the third act is the
most amount of momentum that this show has had since the beginning.
And it was like truly thrilling because they have, they had done such
a great job of building up Ultron, giving us this potential solve to
it, and then it not working and the way that all cascades into like this
horrified feeling of why it didn't work.
That is, that is what the feeling I feel like I've been missing
within, within this series.
Jude: You know what I mean?
Peaked ahead.
I mean, I'm going to say just like this, uh, the reviews.
And that moment we already talked about was kind of had that as well.
Right.
We're we're vision, Ultron turned and looked, you know?
And so, yeah, so I'm, I'm with you on that.
TK: I think thrilling is a really great word for it because it felt so engaging.
Like the action felt so engaging when you see, you know, again, I guess
moving into act three, but when you see the watcher and Ultron fighting
and that glass shattering image, and then the punching and the going from
university universe was so exciting,
Trey: which speaking of, I think we can go ahead and transition into the
final act, which as you were alluding to, this is essentially the fight
with the watcher and, uh, infinite old Tron, which will take us all the
way to the moment where the watcher does decide to ask for, uh, Dr.
Strange has helped from episode.
And, and you're right.
Terra, that fight and the way that it's just visually depicted, like every
punch that infinite old Tron through change the universe in which they were
taking place in, like that is just such a cool idea and a cool visual for
them to work with within this series.
And speaking of it gave us president Rogers.
TK: Yes.
Oh man.
The more we talk about it, the more I love this episode,
Trey: right?
Yeah.
You know, I, I, I texted a friend, a personal ranking, and I think
this episode was episode my, my third favorite of the season so far.
It's it's, it's, I'm falling in love with it.
The more we talk about it.
Jude: Yes.
President Rogers, definitely something I want to see.
Trey: You know, we, we were touching on the fight a little bit before.
I'm sure we'll get into some of the other aspects of it.
I wanted to highlight this because it is something that definitely made me
laugh that I don't think was intentional.
Whenever the watcher and a Ultron are fighting.
There's a moment in the scuffle where you just hear the watcher grunts out.
I am the watcher and it was just like him.
It felt like him trying to psych himself up.
And every time that I've watched that moment, it cracks me up.
TK: I also felt like it was kind of humorous the way that out of
nowhere, he just like levels up.
I mean, it's not out of nowhere.
It's when he says you cannot compute the power of my will.
And he levels up all of a sudden, and he's got like this new outfit on.
Trey: He went super safe.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, I think it goes to show how much we don't know about the
Trey: watcher.
Yeah.
It's.
Again, I, I mentioned in the preschool or thoughts, I'm trying to separate
the baggage of what didn't work of the series and focus on the episode.
But if I can break my oath, I think the, I think if we would have gotten more about
him that would have alleviated so much more, because already mentioned the, the
strongest moment of the episode in the previous act with the watcher, Natasha
and Clint, that this fight is as great as it is because we got that moment.
We see, we saw the.
Representation of him standing to his oath.
Then we get to this and we see the external physical fight
of him standing to that oath.
And so we feel for it.
But I was thinking if we would've just gotten a little bit more of
who he is or who he is beholden to with this oath, we could have gotten
that much more drama out of this.
Um, so that that's me breaking my oath, tiptoeing into what I think I would've
liked a little bit more from the series itself, but you know, who would never
TK: break his oath?
Who president Steven Grant Rogers.
Trey: He did solomnly swear.
Jude: He did.
And he's gonna make like a tree and tell, say, no,
Trey: That's uh, well this, maybe this is why I'm not a, a campaign marketer.
I was about to say that would have been a great slogan, but no, no, you move
is probably not the inspiring quote.
It is for a presidential run.
Jude: We're working it in there
TK: now to your point though, Trey, I agree that I think if there had been
more steady character development for the watcher, maybe throughout the series,
and as I said, you know, he's definitely the, the through line that connects
all of this, but, um, yeah, I think, I think there have been some things that
have worked in the way that they've kind of slowly rolled out a little bit
more involvement from him, but to know a little bit more about where this oath
comes from and, and why it's so important to him, I think would have helped with,
uh, elevating the dramatic stakes.
Jude: Well in in it, but it begs the question, right?
Who's the oath to, is it just to himself or is it some part of agreement
that you get to do this and watch?
Cause, I mean, if you think about, you just said, right.
He powered up.
And so if he has that level of power, he's out side of all these universes
looking in, you know, to have that, oh, that has to be to something or someone.
And do we see consequences in the next episode of raking the oath?
Trey: Personally?
I, if we see any consequences, I think it'll be a tease to season two, but yeah.
What do you think Tara, do you think will.
TK: I don't know.
I, I kind of think not, I mean, if the finale is 30 minutes, they have a
lot to pack in there already with this showdown between the watcher and who
my, my guest Michael referred to as the vendors, which I thought was fantastic.
Um, whoever it is, he's going to assemble, uh, I mean, this is a prediction.
I don't know if this is actually going to happen, but, um, yeah, I, I'm not sure.
And I'll be honest too, thinking about this idea about who is the oath
to, and what are the consequences.
I can't stop thinking about Eternals and that similarity in this idea,
knowing all of what I know about internals, only from the trailers, this
idea of not being able to intervene.
Unless, right.
There's the exception that they mentioned in the second trailer.
So I've been thinking about that a lot.
And I'm like, is what if preparing us for those mental gymnastics
in a, in a bit of a way so that we're more prepared for internals?
Um, is it, is it somehow connected in who this, this promises to?
I don't know.
Trey: Yeah.
You're reminding me of something that has lived rent-free in my head, since
leach said it in the, what if friend Daniel and leach hosted an episode.
She, she characterized what if, as Marvel being like, okay, if Loki was too much
for you, this is going to be us holding your hand through the multi-verse.
So even if you don't get it at first, this is going to be the
way that we explain it to you.
You mentioning like maybe this being a preparation for the eternal and some
of the mental gymnastics to those rules that are arbitrarily set per characters.
Um, I think that fits, uh, whether or not, I don't know if we'll ever know
if that is the intention of what, of the creation, but it makes sense to
me, especially in the way that you have characterized it into that point.
You mentioned about your guests calling it the, the, if vendors and assembling
them on the topic of assembling.
Did any of you think that whenever Dr.
Strange was like cold shouldering the watcher into saying it that
there was going to be some variation of that Avengers assemble line?
Oh, I hadn't thought of that.
I kept waiting for it.
I thought that's the direction they were going to go.
Because as much as a fan of apparently the universes as the watcher is I
like the idea of him being kind of a fan as well and getting to see
Jude: no, I'm just hoping next episode he says if Avengers, like, like, like
I, I hope that we can look back and be like, oh, he called it drug called
TK: try a psychic
Trey: again.
Yeah.
Hey, like we said, you're, you've got a bit of that psychic trait too.
You were talking about, uh, Clinton Natasha being the most
exciting thing in this year.
And here we go, this is the, this episode.
I
TK: was so excited when I saw the, the, um, when I saw the episode description
on Disney plus for episode eight and it said Natasha and Clint, I was like, yes,
Jude: now I did find it.
Interesting.
And I'm wondering if they were starting to lay down the foundation of, well,
I'm assuming next week is a, is a part two and this isn't a cliffhanger, right?
Trey: Um,
Jude: God, I hope so.
Yeah.
Cause just going off the others, it, they have to continue it.
I can't imagine it being a cliffhanger like the other episodes, but this
oh, but anything is possible in the multi-verse, you know, I feel
like they're laying the groundwork.
Of how this is going to end.
Cause they did a stat.
We talked about it and established how powerful this division Ultron is.
Um, and if anything's possible, he can be defeated.
And I'm just curious, uh, which like, are we going to see the
universe where Ultron vision is good?
And so they have to fight one on each other, feels little rehash of
one division, but I know these were written far enough out, you know,
I'm just curious of what that's going to, what that's going to be.
And I feel like that's what it was laid out for.
TK: Yeah.
Do we think it is going to be well, what combination do we think it's going
to be of some type of mind game or bargain, you know, to borrow from Dr.
Strange or trick or something like that versus an all out physical battle.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, you know what, maybe this is where white vision comes back.
The first Theseus or what, as I'm stumbling my words,
TK: maybe the ship of Theseus is more relevant than we even thought.
Like when we're thinking about who these characters are
across the multi-verse, right?
Trey: Yeah.
It's the key to all of this.
It starts, it's what started phase four.
And it's going to bring it all together at the end.
But now I I'm, I'm still stuck on what you said Tara about, like, I think they're
going to continue this next episode.
I I'm like 90% sure they will continue this, but I think that's very emblematic
of the season that they have trained as this, to have this feeling where
at the end of something, so cool.
We're like.
Oh, man, please come through.
TK: Totally.
Cause there's no way that they can pick up all of the threads
from all of the episodes.
I mean, they could of course sort of say, okay, let's assemble captain
Carter and to Chella Star-Lord and the Tasha with the red guardian
shield, the Disney store, by the way.
And I think, yeah, I think the Disney store is, um, marketing her
as post-apocalyptic black widow, which I thought was interesting.
I got an ad on Instagram.
It was like from shop Disney and it was all of the latest, what if
merchant from the Disney store?
Because of course that's the Adam
Trey: getting.
Yeah.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, it definitely tracks because
the, what if a Funko pop collector Corps, they have that as the pop
and it's post-apocalyptic Blackwood.
Okay.
TK: So that's what she's being referred to then, but yeah, I mean, so I feel like.
Uh, you know, and then I started thinking, okay, so maybe we see and
Carter and to challah star, Lord, obviously, you know, well, I'm saying
obviously I think we're going to continue to see this version of Dr.
Strange.
Are we also going to see Sheree and pepper Potts?
Like, are we going to go back to these threads that the other
episodes have kind of left us with?
Like, are they all going to come together?
And I somehow think probably not.
Um, yeah.
I don't know.
What are you guys thinking?
Jude: I think you're right in that 30 minutes is really short
to try to pull all these together.
Trey: It does have me worried because I know Jude and I have definitely felt this.
I've be curious.
Have you felt this as well because you cover the stories too on your podcast.
There seems to be.
And maybe it's even evident as we're in this section now, by
the time you get to the end of the story, it's the action stuff.
And there's not as much to cover other than like, oh yeah,
this is the cool action bit.
I don't know what all they'll be able to introduce and resolve in 30 minutes
while also probably being the action field finale that it's leading into.
So yeah, I that's where the cautiously comes into my cautiously optimistic
part of my pre spoiler thought.
TK: Yeah.
Uh, low-key finale and just have a couple of characters sit
in a room together and talk.
Trey: That would be amazing.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean maybe Dr.
Strange and original Tron played, you know, a rousing game of chess
winner take all.
Trey: Well, unless there's any more, uh, I think we can move on to stray thoughts.
So this is the section for us to just kind of broad strokes, anything we may not
have gotten into during the act breakdowns of what we thought of this episode.
So, uh, Tara, where, what stray thoughts do you have
TK: right now?
My stray thought is about how, if we are fantasy drafting and if vendor team I
want, I want president Rogers to be on it.
Yes.
Um, so that's where my mind is going.
Who else would we want on the team?
Um, but as far as the episode itself, I think.
Yeah, I think the only other thing that I had noted again, was this emphasis
on this idea of purpose and Ultron, struggling with this idea of purpose.
And that's just something that I've been tracking on my show and looking at some
of the bigger concepts that we see tying the different phases of the MCU together.
And, and, um, you know, I don't know to what extent maybe I can go back
and try to do this, that, you know, to track that concept throughout all
of what if, but it certainly felt like it was a big part of this episode.
And then it makes us wonder about the watcher too, as,
as we already said, right?
Like what exactly is the Watchers purpose in this watching that he does?
And, uh, ad who's directive is that, so,
Jude: and I feel like that we're going to find that out at
some point season two, maybe.
Um, but I would, I would really like to know.
Trey: And, you know, to play off of that, I don't know, to what extent you can
take the Stanley cameos at face value of whether it's like, Hey, these are a
hundred percent canonical, or these are stretching the limitations of what is
the, the Canon, but we've already seen, was it in guardians to where Stanley
was talking to some of the Watchers?
So whenever you two are talking about like, Hey, who is this oath to?
The thing I think about is who those peers are and what, you know, what role,
if any, do they play to this winter in particular that we've gotten to know?
I'd be curious to see that
TK: for a second.
I thought you were going to say that it made you curious to wonder if Stanley
was the one that they made the oath to.
Trey: Hey, maybe.
I mean, if we're part of the MCU.
It's fairly, it goes all the way to the top.
Oh, I like that.
I changed my stray thought.
It's that one?
Jude: I thought you were going to say that too.
Yeah.
Trey: Uh, what about you, dude?
You got any stray thoughts?
You know, it's
Jude: interesting.
Um, one of my stray thoughts was actually, I'm sad that we won't get to
see Jeffrey Wright and Stan Lee together.
Um, you know, cause I, I would like to see the live action of this.
Um, I was wondering if one of those arrows, how can I use specifically, like.
The net when maybe, I don't know, uh, was that the arrow, he was talking to
Kate Bishop about being too dangerous.
Oh, I'm just kind of wondering about that.
I thought it was kind of silly that, you know, they shot out Zola's Ultron legs.
Cause now, you know, you gotta carry them.
Um, like, oh, that, that didn't quite work out.
Um, I did wonder
Trey: weeks to Natasha strength though.
Like Yoda,
Jude: you know, I did find it interesting that in wonder like the, the fact
that Barton died and had to sacrifice himself is that moment, one of them
having to do that or make that decision kind of an absolute point, uh, in, in a
similar way of, uh, Christine's death.
Um, and then the last two, uh, I want to find out that the tentacles is actually a.
And I really wish they would have got James Spader or Paul Bettany
back for the vision Ultron voice.
Um, that was one where like you could tell they were trying to do
a James Spader, but it was like, it just wasn't working for me.
And, and I would have liked to have to have had that back.
I don't know that Spader, but I'm pretty sure they could have
gotten all that needed to do this.
So those are my stray thoughts.
What about you, Trey?
Trey: I'm going to immediately go to bat for Ross Markwan who is the
actor that voice Spader to clarify.
I don't think you can replace Spader, but the fact that Ross Markwan got
within the ballpark of capturing that essence of Ultron, I thought it was
really good and it did work for me.
It could be I'm slowly becoming a Ross mark on fanboy.
He was in the walking dead.
I liked him there.
I liked what he was able to do with the red skull and was pleasantly surprised
to see that he was old Tron here too.
So, um, it, it did work for me.
Um, but I think it's just an insurmountable task of trying to recreate
that Spader voice, but to your other.
It does make sense that, you know, Paul Bettany is already working with this show.
Um, it seemed like it would have been a natural fit.
Uh, other, uh, other stray thought love the shot of infinite old
Tron eating the galaxy, which is a nice nod to Galactus, I think.
Uh, and then finally, the last stray thought that I have the watcher
is essentially all of us, whoever talks at the TV screen, whenever
our characters are not doing what they want, doesn't want them to do.
TK: It's right there.
It's right there.
Trey: What are you doing?
TK: Come on Dora.
Jude: Oh my gosh.
I
Trey: knew you'd be back.
Steve.
Jude: It look the number of times I heard my kids yelling go, Dora, go
swiper, no swiping swiper, no swiping.
Oh goodness.
It's a clue.
You know what?
One of my favorite things and I, and I maintain this or
are you talking like morals?
And my students.
I'm like the joker in the dark night and swiper, the Fox is the same character.
TK: They both have to talk about this at some point.
Jude: Hey, I mean, think about what swiper does whenever he
successful, instills anything.
All he does is just turn and throw it in the background.
He doesn't keep it for himself.
Piper just wants to watch the world burn.
TK: Oh man.
The crossover content.
I did not know I needed.
Trey: I've been excited to do the Nolan Batman coverage with you.
At some point I've never been more excited than right now.
That's fantastic.
Well, I didn't, uh, I didn't expect that is where our stray thoughts would have
taken us, but that is it stray thoughts that indeed is our straight thoughts.
Uh, but we are going to do the listeners first takes.
So if you're new to this segment, essentially, uh, we've been reaching
out on social media, asking people what they thought of the episode, and
we read some of the responses here.
So, uh, starting with this one, we get got this one in on Twitter from kin,
which says, quote, I'm glad there's a sort of cinematic buildups slash into
the season, as opposed to disjointed.
One-shot seeing ultra and turn around to say, I see you or something like
it to the washer was super creepy.
Who watches the watcher old Tron.
Yeah, I think Ken did a wonderful job of summarizing that and I
love the way he phrased it as who watches the watcher old shrine.
Yeah.
Jude: Uh, our next one, why did they have to replicate mayor scene?
I cried enough at the end of infinity war.
Uh, Ben Maddie on Instagram.
Um, yeah, like that's it.
And that's the interesting thing is it's recreated in a different spot
and it still got you in the fields.
Trey: Oh yeah.
TK: This one breaks our heart.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
You're not the only one who was crying then.
TK: So the next comment comes from friend Daniel, who I will be working
with on my show next week, actually.
So you can look forward to hearing him over there.
The universal friend of the internet, as he's now called, and he wrote satisfied.
Trey: I was so hoping because when we first started doing this, the first
one that he did was on the, what if zombies and he just put creepy.
And then the next one, I forgot what he put, but it was two words.
And I was so hoping he was going to continue the trend where each
week would just be another word.
And it's his review.
Jude: Well, and the thing is, is he was on and he had to read his.
And it was like, Hey, this works for me.
And then he spent the whole pot of like,
TK: no, it didn't work for him.
Yes.
That was great.
That was my favorite thing.
Trey: I swear.
We, I legitimately think we tampered with the multi-verse by how we frame
those episodes as both leech and Daniel being from those respective
universes where they did the, what if episode, it will, the moment you just
described Jude was so hilarious where he had to read his disagreeing thought.
And then whenever we did it with a leech and we spent the whole
episode just not liking the episode.
And then we got to the audience first takes and he was loved.
It loved it, loved it.
I was like, you know,
Oops.
We have broken the univer.
Jude: Hey, you know, it's either multiple universes or a simulation.
We'll find out
TK: right.
There's one last comment from a listener, right?
It says, oh, it seems like it's from Ultron.
It says, call me, I'll try.
And Trey, would you like to play a
Trey: game?
TK: He didn't sign it though.
It didn't say that it was from Twitter or Instagram.
So
Trey: yeah, they're definitely reaching out from somewhere
Jude: from the deep spacious of the internet.
I'll try on is mainly code.
Trey: I just want it on the record.
I said I loved Ross.
Markwan your voice was fantastic.
Please go easy on me.
Oh, real.
Well, those are our listener first takes.
So, uh, we're gonna be doing this as we move through the Disney plus series.
So if you want to get in on that and make sure you're following us on
social media, uh, to chime in with the.
But, yeah, I think that's going to wrap up the episode.
Uh, Tara, thank you so much for doing this with us.
It was an absolute blast.
TK: Thank you.
Yeah, this was really fun.
And I really enjoyed this episode and talking with you all about it
has made me appreciate it even more.
And, uh, as always, all our conversations always leave me wanting more MCU and
wanting to dig into it more with you guys.
And so I absolutely appreciate you having me on the show.
Trey: You.
Anytime my pleasure.
And of course, if you want more of Tara's insights, you definitely should
be following them on Twitter and Instagram at an idea underscore podcast.
And like we mentioned, in this episode, she has just recently put out an episode
covering the last three episodes of what if so, if you want even more
dive into the story, make sure you're following her on apple podcasts, Spotify,
Stitcher, or wherever you find podcasts.
By looking up, there was an idea, a Marvel cinematic universe podcast.
And as for this show, if you want more of this, you can follow us on social media
at Twitter and Instagram at MCU, you need to know is where you can find us.
Uh, we've been doing a lot of great work to put up extra content from the episodes
that doesn't make it into the feed.
So if you want to see extra, as you can see it there, uh, we've been putting up
our personal first takes of the episode the day of if not the day after, as a way
to get an insight to what we think before the episode drops on Monday, uh, as well
as, uh, voting on which quote from the episode, it becomes our podcast title.
So if you want to get in on the action and helped shape this show in a more
direct way, make sure you're following us on social media, uh, at MC you need to
Jude: know, and of course, and then scroll down to the bottom of the show notes.
You can click a link and join the discord, uh, w where you find a good community that
loves the MCU, uh, pop culture in general.
Wonderful conversations when you go there and make sure you click
on the role assigned channel, click on the emojis and it'll open up
all the spoiler channels to you.
Also, please leave us a rating and review on apple podcast or
wherever you listen to your podcast.
And the best thing you can do for us is share with a friend.
Trey: Yeah.
We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which is
his rendition of the Avengers theme.
Find more of his work on the SoundCloud, which is also linked in the show.
Well, that's going to do it.
Uh, Tara and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
TK: Thank you for having me.
Trey: We'll see you all next week.
well, uh, regarding the episode, has everybody gotten the outline?
Has everything updated accordingly?
I laugh.
I don't know if you saw this Tiki.
Uh, Jude and my ever professional nature was messing around with the outline.
You may see an image of party Thor.
It's just a retaliation for something else he was doing.
TK: Okay.
This is wonderful.
I'm going to check it out now.
I, uh, so usually I make a copy and then do notes separately, but I
did revisit the outline again today because I wasn't sure if you added.
Article, and it looks like you did add another article.
Uh,
Trey: um, the other thing, I don't know if you're familiar, but, uh, Tara, we've
been doing a new thing at the end of the episode after stray thoughts where we do
the listeners first takes, um, it's up to you if you would like to join in and read
one of them, or if you want us to, uh, to read it all and you can just chime in,
if there's anyone that speaks out to you.
Um, if you're game to read, I think the, well, the way it played out
this week is C is a very short one, but that, that would be the one
that you would, uh, be able to read
TK: Peter read.
See, especially because it comes from friend Daniel and you know,
he's going to be my guest next week.
Oh,
Trey: perfect.
Okay, cool.
So I need to point out the reason why I just dang it too.
The reason why I stumbled when I copy pasted, I didn't
realize I copy pasted you.
I see you tray.
This is your controller, the simulation reaching out.
So that gave me pause.
But, uh, if that is what's on the outline, I'm sorry to K that
Jude: so professional.
Well, I don't know if you saw it live, cause I knew you were on there editing.
That's when I started typing because I was hoping you'd see it.
Trey: Yeah.
I caught one.
I didn't cut.
Catch them all.
Y'all
TK: trench.
That's great.