Jethro Jones: Welcome to a Vision for Learning, a proud
member of the Be Podcast Network.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can find me on all the socials at Jethro Jones today.
I'm excited to have Jamie Donally on the program.
She is a passionate technology enthusiast.
She began her career as a math teacher and later moved into instructional technology.
Her desire to build relationships has created opportunities to collaborate with
students and educators around the world.
She provides staff development and training on immersive technology
and as an ed tech consultant.
And our latest adventures include the launch of Global Maker Day
and the ar vr and EDU community.
She's also an author and speaker on the practical use of augmented reality
and virtual reality in the classroom.
So I'm excited to have her as a part of a vision for learning.
Jamie, welcome to the show.
Thanks for being here.
Jaime Donally: Thank you so much.
I love it.
Thank you.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, and so what, from our conversation today is most
valuable you think, for our audience?
Jaime Donally: I think the most exciting thing that we talked about is
really looking at how this technology is gonna affect the classrooms, how
to better prepare for it, while also looking through that practical lens
of what is purposeful, how do you set up, good implementation and how to
collaborate across different departments.
Jethro Jones: Lots of good stuff.
Talked about a ton.
It is great.
For me, the valuable thing was hearing you talk about the idea of looking at
what your objectives and goals are First.
Then deciding how to implement the technology after the fact.
So rather than saying, here's this shiny tool, what can we do with it?
Say, what do we wanna do?
And which tool best meets the needs of our kids and our teachers?
I think that's a great way to do it.
so we'll have my interview with Jamie here in just a moment.
Jamie, you're wearing the meta glasses.
you gotta tell me about that.
Are you seeing displays in front of me or can you I haven't even used those.
So tell me about those.
Jaime Donally: So actually they had.
Ar built in initially in this particular model.
they retracted there at the end, so it was pulled out.
but it was supposed to and it did not have it.
And I was bummed about that when I first found out because I was
like, oh, I still wanna get 'em.
But that's a bummer for certainly in this iteration, it does
not have augmented reality.
But then I thought, oh, it'd be fun.
But now I'm like, I use them.
For my exercises, I use them for, communication.
So anytime I wanna talk to somebody, it just comes in right here.
it's very private people.
If they hear anything, it's like they know something that they hear, but
they can't hear anything specific.
I can listen to music really crystal clear.
I hear conversations, they hear me clear than being on any other type of headset.
and I think that just the flexibility it has, my music connected to Apple,
my Apple Music and has all the connections that I would want, I can
actually livestream 'cause you have two cameras here, to be able to capture.
So I could say, Hey, meta, take a photo.
There you go.
I got a picture of you right
Jethro Jones: Cool.
text it to me afterward
Jaime Donally: I will, I'll,
Jethro Jones: 'cause I
Jaime Donally: then I can capture a video.
I actually have access to meta ai, so everything that I would
wanna know, I could just ask on the fly and speak to them, and
then ask them to text me with it.
Or ask meta AI to then text it to somebody else.
And even right now, there's actually a vision aspect of it, or it can capture
a photo and then you're asking for information based upon that photo.
what can I wear today?
if I'm looking through a mirror, things like that.
So the flexibility and the technology is actually super seamless.
It's super, I wanna say non-disruptive.
So I think that, the, I'm using it.
All the time.
It's hard to go without it, actually.
So first I was like, eh, I got it back in October, and I
was like, yeah, this is fun.
But the more that they've been releasing and the more that I'm getting
familiar with it, the more I just, I prefer it more than anything else.
Jethro Jones: it's really interesting and like the, The Vision Pro is definitely
not as small or lightweight and it's like the best thing that I've seen from
it is this idea of locking in and like when I put it on, I go into work mode.
And that for me has been really nice.
And over the past few weeks that I've had the Vision Pro that's been.
That's how I know I'm working because I'm wearing this thing.
And and I do believe that Apple is eventually gonna come out with something
like what you're wearing, And you've been,
Jaime Donally: we're all excited about.
that's where it should have been to from the get go.
Really.
You'd think after this time in so many years of them working on this project,
that's where they would've went.
I think that there was just, there's major issues with batteries and
the requirement of how it fits you.
They got to see the proof of concepts done by meta with all of
the Quest, which I have 'em all.
seeing how they started and where they've gone, and then the complaints about,
on their face and the heat and, rubbing and things of that sort on the skin.
So they've been able to see all this taking place while they're just patiently
waiting before they release and Apple does, Like they, they get it right.
And that's, I've been so excited about the Vision Pro for that very reason.
Jethro Jones: and I've gotta say I know some people have talked
about, some discomfort and some, feeling of this weight on your face.
To be honest, I have not experienced those negative things.
It feels I.
Quite comfortable.
Yes, I know there's something on my face.
especially the first couple days I noticed it, but now it doesn't
bother me and I use it probably I.
Three to four hours per day, pretty comfortably.
I am almost always on my computer with an extended display.
The reason we're not recording this with me wearing it is because,
it's not quite there yet for doing the kinds, that kind of thing.
And so Zoom, for example.
donks out after a few minutes.
I haven't gotten through a full zoom call with it on yet.
I've gone through many hours of FaceTime calls and it is actually a
delight to use during FaceTime calls.
So you've been talking about this stuff for a long time,.
Let's talk about AR in education and because this is an area that you've
been on the forefront of for many years and, and what about AR and
VR in education makes you excited?
Right now, what are the things you're seeing that, that are just, getting you
up in the morning and excited about it?
Jaime Donally: I tend to lean on for my excitement isn't just the,
The latest, greatest technology.
I wouldn't say everybody needs a vision pro in their classroom, nor
would I say everybody needs a quest.
I would say that there is specific use cases, but I really get excited about
the practical use of the technology.
So more often than not using the devices we all have in our pockets already,
that to me is going to, really hit home for most con for more students.
For most classroom situations, and there's no learning curve
with some new device, right?
So I think that, when we're using this kind of technology, I'm super
passionate about where can we start right, right away without any, problems
or barriers that you're gonna face.
I'm also very much practical about what we bring into the classroom.
So jumping in head first is not my approach, nor do I
recommend it to other people.
I think it is, exciting to see new technologies, but really talking through
collaborating with schools and making sure that they understand what they're
getting into and how to avoid as many.
Roadblocks that they're gonna face.
and that is typically something an afterthought after a purchase.
So somebody will say, Hey, we bought a thousand of these.
And it's oh my gosh, do you realize what you just did?
so there's this caution that I have for people that I, I would really love
to chat with you and I always chat.
I probably on a weekly basis do I chat with schools and talk through some of
the things that they're implementing.
So I love being a part of that.
But most.
Importantly Jethro, I think that most people don't think about
is, that they haven't actually created any objectives or goals.
And so that part I really love being a part of because once we can clearly
identify what they wanna accomplish from any technology, then helping them
gather the right tools, seeing where the students are truly struggling, helping
'em reach those needs in ways that they could not do without the technology,
that part really gets me excited.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because that's been my
approach with technology as well.
What is it that you're really trying to do and then the tool
we can find to make that happen?
and what's great about AR and VR is that there's more opportunities now for.
You to do something and, but that doesn't mean that's the only opportunity
or that's the always the best thing.
just to segue into artificial intelligence real quick, one of the things that I've
just loved about AI is that creating unique and personalized experiences
for every student is so much easier with AI than it has been in the past.
It used to be a big load on the teacher's shoulders to do that, and now.
It's a piece of cake because you say create 30 different scenarios
for this one problem, and I want it to be according to this table.
Joey likes these kinds of things.
Eloise likes football.
Michelle likes this and being able to tie it into those things that are
then personalized for those kids, that kind of stuff is just powerful.
And what a great opportunity to be able to use that, to customize
and personalize for our students.
Jaime Donally: You know what's so funny is I'm thinking clearly on the opposite
end, that you're giving out a lot of information about that student, so
being extremely prepared and trained.
Gained on how to make sure you are getting the benefits of AI
without giving too much information.
That could be really sensitive information about those students,
whether it be accessibility issues, whether it be, their interests that
now become targeted ads at them, whatever that might be in the future.
Like I.
I am so cautious about like this.
I love ai, I share on ai, right?
But I, also see that equally balancing out the risk, right?
And recognizing what potential information can be out there.
So while personalization today might be possible because we're giving
this information, what does that mean for tomorrow when it comes
to that same information being used against them, if you will.
Maybe those tests actually recognize where somebody is struggling
and it makes assessments that pressure, that struggle, right?
Who knows?
Like you just think about somebody actually using or leveraging
this information in a wrong way, and that's possible too.
It's really interesting and I, again, I feel like there's
a balance with AR and VR too.
that there's people that ready to jump in and try these new things.
They're ready to give every kid a meta, RayBan glasses
and it's like, no, no, no, no.
The AI built in, let's think about like your student speaking into
that system, if you will, and what kind of concerns there might be.
do we love meta for its privacy?
No.
No, we don't.
So all of these questions I think are really important.
One, to establish a trust within our communities, and two, to know where this
technology has a potential of going.
There's great things, and then there's risks too, and you
gotta weigh out those risks.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, and it's important to look at the risks as well, and not just.
I think that because of technology exists that it's all 100% good.
so let's talk about that layer that you talked about with, helping
people know, like what their goals are and objectives are.
W what is the process that you go through to help someone look at that as
they're evaluating a piece of technology?
Jaime Donally: I usually recommend starting with the struggle.
where are your particular students struggling year after year, which usually
is attributed back to the teacher, right?
So that's hard to reflect on sometimes, but you gotta say, and I know for me, I
really struggled with certain concepts to be able to teach because maybe I
didn't have a great foundation on that concept as a former math teacher, if
they didn't have that really solid foundation, how were they supposed
to learn something more advanced?
When they couldn't even get the concepts here, they're learning a song and a dance,
if you will, but I think that's where this technology can really support those
learners to understand in greater depth.
So going back and reflecting on let's talk about it.
where do you notice in scores your benchmark exams, whatever it might
be, where do you notice your students consistently struggle year after year?
And oftentimes they'll be like, oh yeah, and they can name it pretty easily, this
is my area, or their area of weakness.
and then you can say, okay, that's super abstract.
That's hard for them to understand.
So how do we bring this back to something tangible for them?
how do we really make sure we're aligning with what they enjoy doing?
Some kids would never put on a headset.
some kids get really sick in a headset.
But let's talk about maybe when it comes to the augmented reality and what
kind of devices do you have available.
So while this may be even good in theory, in the area you wanna approach
and budget for in the future, and.
Have discussions about this is what you have today.
So where can we start to help them reach those goals?
there's o oftentimes those are the questions that we start
having and initiating the general ideas of where they're going.
And then once they've really started becoming masters in those certain areas.
They're ready to move on and expand, 90% of our teachers, they don't wanna do ar
vr every week, nor should they, right?
I think there should be a variety of things.
Anything I recommend in AR or vr, there should be a supplemental hands-on activity
worksheets that they're supporting, group collaboration that's happening, mastering
some, projects that they're doing.
All of those factors that are aligned with learning it, so that
you're meeting the various learning, preferences for our students.
So I think that it usually boils down to us just having those,
conversations and then those things really start getting revealed quickly.
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
And one of the challenges that we face is that we see the shiny tools or some
new toy and we're like, oh, I gotta adopt that and figure out how to use that.
I gotta.
Bring this into my classroom.
And then the professional development piece about how to use all these
different tools and when to use them and when's appropriate and
when's not appropriate, and looking at the risks and the challenges.
those are all challenging also.
and one of the things that I've said for a long time is that
technology makes a good teacher, great and a bad teacher, even worse.
And it's a polarizing thing.
Do you agree with that or disagree?
What do you think?
Jaime Donally: Say, restate that and let me get my head around
exactly what I'm thinking.
This one,
Jethro Jones: Rather than just throw it at you and then ask you a question.
Yeah.
So what I think is that technology makes a good teacher even better.
They already have the foundational skills, and it makes a bad teacher
even worse because if they're already a bad teacher, then bringing technology
in isn't going to close any gaps.
It's going to expose the areas where they're already weak.
Jaime Donally: Yeah, I think that's certainly true.
I think that sometimes.
I've had experiences 'cause I was an instructional technologist, when
I was in my last school districts.
sometimes it inspired them to become better teachers.
So it was like this aha moment where they got to see the benefits of using
certain technologies, what it was like.
Wow.
My kids love this.
look how much they're growing from this.
maybe I need to really embrace this instead of just being stuck in my,
little narrow window of what this should and shouldn't look like.
so sometimes I've seen some good things come from it.
It all really depends.
I think it really, it just all depends on how they're using it.
if they're using it in the right way for good or bad teacher, I think there's
potential for benefit for our students.
If they're using it in the wrong way, good or bad teacher, I think that there's
some serious risk of damage, right?
it comes down to training.
It comes down to, really I think collaboration, in my opinion.
I don't think anybody should be doing any technology and silo.
I think it really does take the de, those departments collaborating
and working together as well as.
Across, your teachers, your peers.
but it really does also, it does take skill.
It does take time to understand and feel confident in using new tools.
But, sometimes those tools can be very simple tasks that they can bring in
that really make a powerful difference.
I hope, and I guess I, My hope in that is that it turns a bad teacher into a
good one, because I think it could be an inspiration for them to want to be better.
Jethro Jones: I think that's, I think everybody hopes that
Jaime Donally: Yeah,
Jethro Jones: but, and, and I, and I really.
Jaime Donally: case.
Yeah.
Jethro Jones: not always the case, but I do really believe that it
does have the potential to do that.
I just don't think that the technology itself is, I don't
think the technology itself is gonna change learning for someone.
It's not gonna change teaching for someone.
and if we've seen with kids and cell phones that if they don't have the skills
to manage their emotions and their, Their, self-discipline about using the phone.
Like my wife, is in a text thread with some youth who, who do some stuff in
our church and she got a text message, from one of them at two o'clock
in the morning, and she was like.
What is going on?
You should not be texting at two o'clock in the morning, as a
teenager and you shouldn't even have your phone during that time.
'cause our kids don't have devices at that time and all of our devices are charged in
the living room rather than in bedrooms.
And so those are like the things that we do to make sure that.
We're keeping our kids safe, that we're doing smart things, but
that extends to schools as well.
And just throwing technology in somewhere is not the best
thing to do all the time either.
so before, before we sign off, I do wanna talk about your, you've got
two books, about ar, vr, The first one is called, learning transported,
augmented, virtual mixed reality for all classrooms, and the second one
is called the immersive classroom.
Create customized Learning Experiences with AR and vr.
Now, we don't have time to go into everything about that, but what are
the big ideas that you're sharing in these books that, that you want
people, to get from them and how they should, could use these tools
in their classrooms day to day?
Jaime Donally: The first book was really just get a hook, right?
Get interest in defining what this technology is, because there
still was just not a whole lot of awareness as to what it was.
So really defining it, giving the resources if they.
We're interested in pursuing more, to get them started with some basic lesson plans.
Some, just sparking the interest, if you will.
the second book was really digging into making customized, content
or opportunities using this technology, the power behind it.
The stories behind it, how is it impacting lives?
So there were some accessibility aspects into it, the digital
citizenship part of it.
the purpose behind it and the power, I just, I think that, moving from, Hey,
this is where we start, and this is where you get the context of what this can do
in the classroom to where should we go in, in the future using this technology?
What is the power behind it is really intended in the next book.
Jethro Jones: Very good.
On that note, how easy is it for a teacher to create experiences with AR and vr?
It seems like it would be an expensive, complicated endeavor.
Jaime Donally: It's really not.
I think there's a lot of creation tools out there to be able to build and design.
I don't always say that's where we need to start, because I
think getting the fundamentals of understanding the technology, but I.
we usually started experiences, right?
We're experiencing something.
we're taking in that information.
And then from there you start really saying, I need to build something
that matches what our needs are.
so then you really have the creation aspect starting to come into play
once they become a little bit more mastered in, into the technology.
so I love sharing code spaces.
Code Spaces is a tool where you can create content.
Augmented and virtual reality.
It is so fun.
It's like the ROBLOX for students, but it's education and, it is such a
fantastic space to be able to design and build and collaborate together,
to build 360 concepts or, learning.
Augmented reality, virtual reality for them to go in and
explore on multiple devices.
It's flexible for Chromebooks.
I think that's a biggie when we're talking about some of this technology
and what devices are in the classroom.
So there's just a lot of really great benefits to using that tool.
and it's such a simple tool that students will literally.
Overspend, they will go home and work on it in the evenings and on the weekends.
You cannot get those kits, so does a fantastic purchase because you certainly
get the benefit of using a tool like that.
Jethro Jones: that's good.
I like hearing these, examples of things that people are using because, even before
we started recording, we both shared.
companies that are doing cool things that we hadn't even, neither of us
had heard of before, and yet both of us are intimately aware of.
And so Codespaces is one of those that I hadn't heard of yet.
And so I'm glad to see something new and, and that's awesome.
Jamie, thank you so much for being part of a vision for learning.
where would you like to direct people to learn more about you and connect with you?
Jaime Donally: They can check me out at my website AR VRIN edu.com.
So ar vr and edu.com.
lots of blog content, walk you through how to use tools step by step.
Links, use cases and all of the above.
also I wanna recommend a really incredible platform that's a hundred percent
free for classrooms, and that's the Verizon Innovative Learning Platform.
I don't know if you've checked that out, Jethro, but they have so many
augmented and virtual reality tool tools, including the McGraw Hill AR app
that I've been sharing out like crazy.
Tons of amazing experiences for our students in the classroom, so
definitely check them out because there's so many additional resources
out there for them to go and explore.
Completely free.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff there.
I have, checked that out before.
Jamie, thank you so much for being part of a vision for learning.
It was great to chat with you today.
Jaime Donally: Yeah.
It was great talking to you.
Thank you so much.