To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word.

And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy. Hello. You

know, we do have French listeners. Now she's sorry.

No, I'm not. You should be. If I said I am a chicken, I know.

I think we've said this before, but Brie took French for way too long to be as bad as she is at it.

Well, if you don't use it, you lose it. And if you never had it, where did it go? You know what I'm saying?

My daughter has been very into Duolingo lately. Mhmm.

She has been. She came in on my room this morning, and she was like, bonjour. Something, something, something, something.

I'm sorry, French people out there. But she really she's so excited about it. And she, out of nowhere, chose that she wanted to learn French. And she's been every day on there.

Mhmm. It's a beautiful language. I know several key phrases. I know hello. I know you are dumb.

Cool. I know I am a chicken. Where's the library? Do you like beef? I feel like butter.

You know I feel like butter? No, actually I don't.

I've heard, though, that if you with Duolingo, if you don't, like, get on it every day, the Duolingo owl harasses you

intensely. And she was showing me there's some, like, weird animated characters

Yeah.

That really judge you. Yeah.

I think she picked the one that judges you, though. Mm-mm. They were like, you get to pick which one you wanna be.

She's like, look, it looks like ennui from inside out. And I was like, okay. I know. But she showed me. She was like, look, I'm

gonna get this activity right and watch what she does. And so she gets the activity right, and the thing, like, shrugs or throws its hands up in the air.

It's ridiculous. She thrives through negative reinforcement.

Great. That's what I wanted for my child. So today, we're gonna be talking about how would you describe this exactly?

When I originally texted you, it was like, how are we making ourselves smaller Mhmm. To accommodate the patriarchal world around us?

Mhmm.

And in my mind, I was like it was like physically Mhmm. And emotionally and spiritually. Like, there are so many times that just as a woman going through society Mhmm. We feel like we have to not be our true selves. Mhmm.

We have to, like, think about manspreading. Mhmm. Like, they take up more physical space than you. And if they don't,

they're gonna try.

Yeah. And women so often are trying to make ourselves smaller so that we just don't rock the boat. But what would happen if we said forget that? Mhmm. I'm going to be my true self.

This has been all over TikTok, but, like, decentering men Mhmm. In my life and really just pursue what I think is best for me. And where would I go? You know, how far would that get me? Because men do that,

you know?

They don't think about, oh, what will a woman think about this if I post this picture or if I spread my legs on a bus? I don't know. That made me look comfy.

That actually reminds me of one of our most hated books ever. Gods, Guides and Garbage.

I don't even remember what the real title of that is. Let's talk. Girlfriends. Got boyfriends. You know.

Anyway, it's Friday night absent. We hated on it for a whole episode a couple months ago. But that reminds me of something that she talked about. She, in there, was saying, you know, as a girl, you might be thinking like, well, what should I do because he might not like this and blah blah blah blah blah. And kind of making that very normal.

Like Mhmm.

That's what you should do is before you make any action, consider will men appreciate this? Will this be attractive to men? Mhmm. You know, and and this is something that you and I have talked about a lot in just kind of the decisions that we make in our lives. That not every decision we make has to be attractive.

Attractive.

And also, like, not every decision I'm gonna make is gonna make you comfortable. Right. And that's not my objective Right. Is to make other people comfortable

Mhmm.

All the time. Sometimes. Often not. Often not. But I think

that you're right. It's not that you want all of your actions to make everyone in the world uncomfortable, but that that's not your main priority. Exactly. But that kind of is the expectation for women is that Mhmm. That we are supposed to step out of the way and make people around us comfortable.

Even physically Yes. Like, as a rule, men, when they walk in a straight line, will just keep walking in that straight line. Even if somebody's in their way, they're not gonna veer. They're not gonna, you know, get out of the way, whatever. Mhmm.

Women, as a rule, will step out of the way. Mhmm. And you can give a million reasons for that. Like, you can say, well, boy men are trained to be more considerate.

You know? Or women are constantly having to be aware of their surroundings where men are not.

Right. And so then what happens if you don't step out of the way? Mhmm. I saw a TikTok one time, and she was like, I have run into 12 men this month.

I actually step out of the way. Really enjoy doing this. And I've gotten almost maybe too aggressive. Like, I'm not only gonna not get out of the way. I'm gonna walk directly towards you.

Just see what happens. It seems like the opposite of the solution here.

I wish somebody had said that because we did those acts of microfeminism. Mhmm. We asked that on our TikTok the other day. And I almost wish that somebody had said something like that because I always think that's funny. Yeah.

That's our acts of microfeminism

Yeah. In our own lives. Get out of my way. I have a mission too. But I wanted to talk about

because I think sometimes we trick ourselves in the church to think these are modern concepts. And I'm sure we've talked about this before, but the idea that women are equal to men.

Shocking. Disturbing even.

The idea that women shouldn't cater to men Mhmm. Or shouldn't make themselves smaller for men. Sometimes by the more conservative Christian church, we're told that that's like a newfangled idea that came about, you know, in the eighties when women were burning their bras. Mhmm.

Were they burning the seventies?

When were they burning their bras?

I I think it was like sixties, seventies. Frankly, it's

hot enough in this room that my bra may light on fire. Yeah. But I wanted to kind of go back in history and talk about Christian history, faith based history a little bit. Mhmm. And show that none of this is new.

Yeah. Like, these concepts that we talk about every week, not a lot of them are new. Mhmm. They have been going around for a while, and actually what we're doing to women now, that's new. Right.

Oppressing women to the point of suffocation.

That's new. It's definitely new in Christ following. Because when Jesus came, he specifically said, don't do this. Like, world around them was doing it. And he said, no.

Thank you. Let's do this differently.

He said, thank you. Next. So I was reading

a blog today, and I actually did not appreciate

a lot of what they had to say. Wow.

I'm glad you read that. Sometimes you gotta read the opposite things. But one of the things that they said that I did like and that I wanted to call attention to is that they said women are not background characters or supporting characters in their own And that's true even in the bible. Like, Brie and I were talking about the story of Ruth, who is not someone we're necessarily gonna go into today, but one of the shorter books in the Old Testament. And it's literally titled

Ruth. Ruth.

And yet, even though this is her story, this is Ruth's story and also Naomi's story, who's her mother-in-law, when you hear this story talked about, I am constantly hearing about the man in the story.

I think because we've talked about this before, like, so often women get their worth based on how they are related to men. Mhmm. So, like, Mary was engaged to Joseph, and that's why we know who Mary is.

Mhmm. Or so on

and so forth and what have you. But, like, their significance is based on what men they know.

Mhmm. Well, in in the story of Ruth, Boaz, who's the man she ends up marrying, is not really that significant of a character. Mhmm. Like, obviously, he's an important part of the story. But the story is hers.

The story Yeah. It's about what she does to protect herself, to protect her mother-in-law. How she believes what God has for

her. Mhmm.

And he just kind of is there. Like, you could switch him out with really anybody, and the story would stay the same.

Well, I mean, he has a really nice name. Boaz? Boaz. But so I wanted

to talk about kind of through the ages,

drama. As are the days of our lives. I think it's these are the days. Days are the days of our lives.

Don't watch a lot of soap operas. No. That's not true. I watch Grey's Anatomy.

That's as much of a soap opera Gilmore as Girls. But we're

gonna talk about four women in the faith community. They're not all biblical women because obviously, we're going through history, and the Bible kinda stops

at a No. Certain No. No. No. No.

I thought it kept going.

I mean, it it probably depends

on who you talk to. Boarded a canoe and sailed to America.

That would be the Mormons.

I got confused. So we're gonna talk

about Deborah, who we've talked about before, one of our bestest friends. We're also gonna talk about Saint Brigid of Ireland. Brigid. And then we're gonna talk about Margaret Towner. And then we're gonna talk about Rachel Held Evans.

And they kind of span the centuries.

So the and so these are the days of our lives. What is the beginning part of it? Don't know. I don't watch days of our lives. Me neither.

So

First, let's talk about Deborah of the bible. Now, I don't have yeah. Big dip. I don't have, like, a the years Deborah lived because,

you know She's in the book of judges.

She is in the book of Figure that

out yourself.

She was BC. So But Deborah was a major figure in the book of Judges. Mhmm. She was both a judge and a prophet. And she led her people to war.

To war? Woah. It was scary. What?

I was frightened. I'm Batman. And the basic story because we've done a whole episode on her before. We talk about her all the time. So you guys are probably familiar with her.

If you're not, her story is in judges four and five. But just like a super quick overview.

Mhmm.

So Deborah is a judge and a prophet appointed by God. So she is like a major leader in her community. She is kind of the leader in her community. She is married. And yet she does not step aside for her husband.

She does not step aside for any of the men in her community. God appointed her, and so she leads. Mhmm. Now time goes along, and a man named Barak comes to her and says, hey,

we we need war. What is it good

for? And she says, okay, you know, like, go lead our people. Do the thing. Mhmm. And he said, I'm not going.

He said, I will not go unless you go. Mhmm. And Deborah's response is basically like, I will go with you. I will help lead with you. But if I do this, then the credit for winning this war is gonna go to a woman.

And this is so often seen as like an insult.

Mhmm.

Like a hit to his masculine pride. Sensitive. But he didn't take it that way. Or at least according to the bible, he didn't take it that way. He said, cool.

Let's go, best friend. And they went they went off and they won their war together. There's a whole additional part of the story. Mhmm. With JL.

Yeah. Again, we're concerned for JL. Yeah.

We

have worries. Seek help. Yeah.

JL is a little bit of a murderer.

But very strong. And hey,

if if sometimes you gotta tent peg people in the eye.

She's in the temple. Part of the story. Yeah. So that's that's essentially the story. That's her story in the bible.

It's pretty short. It's two chapters.

And she sings. She does sing.

Everybody's singing in the bible.

It's a musical.

It really is.

That's why they made Jesus Christ Superstar.

Yeah. I forgot that's how it went. So when you pull it apart in context of what we're talking about, I have heard the argument that Deborah led her people because there were no good men to stand up and lead her people. So by default, there was Deborah. She must.

But that's not what the Bible says.

No. And I think that's the dangerous part of just like making things up. Mhmm. Right? The Bible says she was a ruler and a judge.

There you go. Mhmm. She was a ruler and a judge. But there's people will do anything they can to make women smaller. Mhmm.

You're right, in their own stories. Mhmm. And so they made an excuse that, oh, these men serving beside her must not have been worthy. Right. Or they must have sucked.

When it doesn't say that.

No. I mean, I think you have to that makes God pretty insignificant.

Mhmm.

If God wanted just men to lead, then when they were children, he could have raised up men to lead instead of Deborah. He could have taken the existing men Mhmm. And worked with them until they were the leaders that he wanted them to be. Mhmm. But he didn't do that.

And then we look at Barak in this story.

Different from the Barak you and I know. Quite.

And he what an insult to him, too. Yeah. God chose Deborah to lead the people because Barak couldn't do it. The Bible doesn't say that either. He went right beside her.

Mhmm.

He went with her. And frankly, isn't that what most of us would do today? Mhmm. Not just women. Men.

Everyone. How often do you choose to go into dangerous situations by yourself? Well, every day I go to work. A wise person brings someone along that they know can support them, can do what they can't do.

Because you can go so much further Mhmm. With someone else. Like, even just confidence wise, think about yourself. Like, I'm so much more bold and I lack a lot of filters when there's someone else by myself. Usually, it's me.

So that's true for them too. You can go so much further as

with a team. And I love to see this particular pairing with Deborah and Brock because it and we'll go into this with our next person as well, but it shows a camaraderie. It shows equality. Instead of if you had two men or if you had two women in this story, it wouldn't show that ability to really work together in a safe and equal space

Mhmm. The way that this does.

Now, I don't know. They could have had a volatile relationship for all I know. But what the Bible says here is that they were a team. Mhmm. And what does it do to our world when instead of women having to be small to cater to egos, to cater to like, you've said this before, but in your small group, how the women would, like, do little things to make the men think they were making the decision or whatever.

Yeah. I was in a group of divorcees. And I remember them having a conversation, you're right, about, well, how do we how do we make our men feel more like men when they're making decisions that we disagree with? And the solution was obviously to give them little things that they can make the final decision on that you really don't care about. But the things that you do care about, you just make the decision whatever you want it to be.

So just babying them.

Mhmm.

Making them feel like they're the man. Mhmm. And is that truly what you think God intends marriage to be? Right. More manipulation?

Mhmm. It's just not right. Mhmm. How much better could it be if you just sat down with your partner and communicated, hey, this is why this is important to me, and this is why this is important to you. And maybe we can come to some kind of agreement on this situation, whatever it may be.

But that to me seems so much more godlike Mhmm. In a marriage than manipulation and behind your back. Mhmm. You know,

the I I don't know where my words are. They're up there. I saw them. It's the way.

Oh. I see.

But I think that's obviously, like, Deborah and Barack is not a marriage situation. Mhmm. But I think it's such a great example of that. Mhmm. Of two people who are I mean, honestly, they're not equals at the end of the day.

Deborah is in charge in this situation. But Deborah chooses to go into this with him.

Mhmm.

She's a She's a boss.

She's a boss and she's shines out of the house.

But you see them working together, communicating with one another. And, I mean, I guess you could look at when she says like, hey, the credit for this is gonna go to a woman. You could maybe look at that and say like, well, that's a little manipulative. But the reality is that was the reality. She was a prophet and she knew from God that that was the truth.

Mhmm.

And frankly, the credit didn't even go to her. It went to jail.

No. And he didn't even question it. He wasn't like, hey, well, makes me uncomfortable because Right. I'm a And God appointed me as leader. So I don't like that the credit would go to someone else.

No. He said, all right. Thank you for informing me of your prophecy. Let us move on.

And this really was even like, timeline wise, prior to Jesus coming back and saying, hey, we're gonna do things differently.

Mhmm.

So you can already see God's people starting to try to do things differently. Now, do they always? Obviously not. Like, none of us do everything perfectly. What?

I'm so sorry to let you know. I

thought I did. Not today. It's really, really a bad day

for me. So anyway, so the next person that I wanna talk about is Saint Brigid. And then it's she's of Ireland, but also of Kildare, depending on who you talk to, I guess.

I don't know what Kildare is. Now the blog that I

was looking at spelled her name incorrectly. It's b r I g I d. Not like Bridget like we would normally think of today. So Saint Bridget is from the Catholic tradition. And we've talked about this before when we talked about our best friend Beth's book.

Yeah. And we talked about some of the Catholic traditions that Protestants really have tried to like steer clear of.

Mhmm.

Because obviously the Protestant traditions don't have the saints, don't have those kinds of things. However, while I think we would consider ourselves more Protestant, it's important to remember that our history comes through the Catholic church. Yeah. Because after Christ and after that early church, it developed into Catholicism before it developed into Protestantism. So our histories are all entangled.

They're still in there. It's like talking about a family. Right? It's like how I am, and you are. You're welcome.

A quarter Maltese. Yes. And whatever. Like, it all goes back. Mhmm.

We all come from somewhere. Right. And it's important to talk about where we came from. Mhmm.

And I think we so often in the Protestant church forget about this history or, like, really intentionally black it out. Yeah. But it's important to talk about these people. So Saint Brigid lived from April to May. And obviously, that's approximate.

Recently. Very recently. So I think this would have still been kind of considered the earlier post Christ church.

Mhmm.

Obviously not the first people, but that earlier church where they still really remembered what was going on right after Jesus died.

Their great great great grandparents.

Mhmm. So she lived in Ireland. She's actually now the patroness saint of Ireland. So you'll see her on a lot of things over there.

I wanna go to Ireland. Let's go. I'm in. Let's go tomorrow. I want some, like, soda bread and Guinness.

That's all that's all you had. Right? Yeah.

We're sorry to both the French and the Irish today. So she was an abbess. And we've talked about some abbesses before. And essentially, what that means for those of us who grew up in the Protestant church and have no idea what that means, is that she would have been in charge of an abbey, which had both nuns and monks in it. They were traditionally led by women.

Mhmm. And so she was the abbess of Kildare in about April. April.

I still am not clear on Kildare. It's a a City. Voltaire hair. I would personally like to learn about Voltaire.

That's from Princess Diaries for those of you that don't know. I did not get that quote for the longest time.

Oh, I know. Me too. I just like the sound of it. It does. It's it's got a flow.

Voltaire. Hair.

So, she she founded that abbey, the Abbey Of Kildare. And then she also founded more convents of nuns. Where is Kildare? Ireland. Now there is a debate amongst the scholars about whether or not she really existed or if she is kind of like a

kind of almost a mythical figure. Like Superman. Yes. Or Super Mario. Or Santa Claus.

The poor children. You just said Santa Claus. You can cut that out. Or myself. You're a mythical figure?

The man, the myth, the legend.

Ah, yes. Ryan. Got it. So like I said, yeah, there's a debate about whether she's real. But there's a lot of documentation that she existed.

So, you know, scholars are debating. She is said to have worked miracles, which I believe is part of the requirements to be a saint in the Catholic church. It said that she worked miracles, including healing and feeding the poor. Which I think, obviously, like, in the Protestant church, they don't really believe in the miracles side of things.

Which I don't know why. I know.

You don't. That's an odd one to me.

Read the Bible. Miracles be happening all the time, not just from Jesus.

But even so, like healing and feeding the poor, that's one that could really be is it a miracle? Or is it like Sign. She was just really great. Like, there's a story about her. And when it comes to saints, there's like legends that surround them.

Mhmm.

And so you have to decide whether you feel that this is true history or kind of the legend of this person. And that happens with a lot of historical figures anyway. But one of the stories that they have about her is that essentially she was so generous that it made her father really mad. He was just really pissed off at her. And so he was gonna take her because they were nobles.

He was gonna take her to the king and, like, ship her off to wherever. And She was being too generous. She was too generous. And so she had for some reason, she had her father's sword that had, like, gems and whatever in it. And she gave it to someone who was homeless outside of the palace.

And Final

act. Rebellion.

And the king somehow saw it and saw that she was so generous. And that's part of why she went on this now journey to be an abbess. Which obviously, again, legend, not necessarily documented history. But it is kind of a fun story. Yeah.

So she, along with seven others, is credited with organizing communal, consecrated religious life for women in Ireland. Say that again. So basically that means that she organized the nuns. Like, she made space for women to go into full time ministry. Nice.

To live that life in Ireland.

So then this is part

of her story that I really liked and wanted to talk about because it reminds me of the story of Deborah. Mhmm. So she appointed a man named Conleth. Now, I could be saying that wrong, but I think I'm saying it right. He was a hermit.

And she appointed him to be the bishop of Kildare. So to kind of like lead along side her. Mhmm. And that led to literally centuries of Kildare being led by abbesses and bishops together. Nice.

Which I thought was, again, calling back to the story of Deborah, where you see this working together.

And just things that you do not hear about. Mhmm. Especially in, like, the Southern Baptist Church or just the Baptist Church. You do not hear about women. Period.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Yeah. And I wonder like we said, like, you go further together.

Mhmm.

You go further as a team. And as a Western Protestant community, We have really put a wall up on how far we can go

Mhmm.

On how far we can take God's love. Mhmm. Because we won't work as a team.

Mhmm. Well, it's a power struggle constantly. Mhmm. Rather than fighting to show God's love to people, we're fighting each other Mhmm. On who God loves more.

Right. And we keep saying that it's men.

But you can see these women, and obviously we've looked at just two now, but the the next two as well, they didn't step aside.

Mhmm.

They said, God called me to exist here in this space. And I'm gonna take up as much space as I want to. Brigid was founding churches. She was giving nuns a space to live and exist and worship God. And I think we forget that a lot of times with at least from the Protestant perspective of the Catholic church.

We kind of I think I think because of that movie. Because of Sound of Music. Sound of Music. A lot of times we forget that the women that she was leading and the men that she was leading had dedicated their lives to God. Mhmm.

And she gave them a space and a home to do that in. Mhmm. And what did that do for God's kingdom? We'll never know the impact that that had Mhmm. For God's kingdom because she decided to take up the space that she was supposed to take up.

Yeah. She didn't step aside so that a man could do it instead. So then the next woman we're skipping we're skipping a good bit forward in history because I didn't feel like finding someone from every single century. Why not? It just sounded like a bad time, frankly.

It seems like you failed.

So the next woman I wanna talk about is Margaret Towner. And she was born in 1925, and she is still alive. She is 100 this year. Happy birthday. I don't know when her birthday is.

But she was the first woman to be ordained as a minister of the Presbyterian Church of the United States of America. Good for her. And this happened in 1956. A good year. She also I thought this was super interesting.

She went to Western Michigan. Really?

Yeah. That's super interesting.

Yeah. So if you don't know, we are from Michigan. That is where we are currently melting.

Some people say, Meshugunens.

Some people might say that. Probably not a lot, though.

Our governor might say Michiganders. You're never gonna let that go. It's like the fifth time you said that.

But I just thought that was a fun little, like, connection.

That's very cool.

Yeah. That's actually relatively close to where Brie and I both went to college.

Mhmm. And especially because, like, the fifties, you do not think about that. You think leave it to be for housewives. Right.

This was, I think I think her, like, higher education. Like, not necessarily her bachelor's degree. But yeah. So I just thought that was So the PCUSA, which is what the the fun little acronym that we're gonna use. And I think that they use because, frankly, that's too many words to say.

Different from PCOS? Yes. They voted to ordain women in 1955, and she was ordained in 1956. Now it's important to note that this is slightly different from the PCUS, which is the southern branch of the Presbyterian church. They did not vote to ordain women until nine years later.

But they did eventually. But she was ordained in 1956. An interesting story. So there were many women waiting on this boat. It's not like she was a straggler.

Mhmm.

There were women ready to go. Had their education set. Mhmm. Knew what was required of them. And were waiting to be ordained because they felt God's calling.

She did not know that she was the first. Because there were so many women being ordained, which how incredible. Yeah. In 1956.

I wish I was there. Mhmm.

She didn't know that she was the first. But eventually, of course, that she found that out. Now when she was ordained, when she she didn't know she was going to be the first, but when she actually had the the ceremony or whatever it is, I don't really know how that functions. To be ordained, they had a photographer from Life Magazine there, and they did a five page spread. Wow.

On her ordination. Holy moly. Yeah. Because this was like a landmark thing. Yeah.

This was huge. Now I don't know if this was happening globally in the Presbyterian church, but particularly in The United States. This was new. Mhmm. But just because she was ordained did not mean that things went smoothly.

It never does. She did not get ordained having a church to go back and preach at.

Mhmm.

She got ordained. She came back to the church where she had attended prior to that. And she was never asked to preach or lead a service. Not once. And in fact, it wasn't until I believe the Presbyterian church is similar to the Methodist church in that they give you like postings.

So they kind of like assign you to like, you're gonna be here, you're gonna be here. And it wasn't until her last posting that she was paid the same as the male pastors.

Which was when? Which would have

been probably around like nineteen seventies. So it was a good fifteen to twenty years Mhmm. Before she was paid the same as the men.

However A struggle even today.

However, in 1981, she was elected the vice moderator of the church's general assembly. So even a higher position than a church pastor or something like that. Mhmm. But to kind of like the governing board of the Presbyterian church. She retired then in 1990.

A good year. And then like I said, she is now 100 years old. Wow.

Which, I mean, what a wild life. Probably not something that she would have even anticipated. Mhmm.

And if you think back to, like, what people say about Deborah, like, oh, there weren't enough good men. I'm sure that there are many a good man in the Presbyterian church. Yeah. Many men willing to step up and preach and lead and do all the things that a pastor needs to do. And yet, Margaret was there also feeling the same calling from God.

Mhmm. Yeah. We're not saying there aren't good men out there to preach, teach, and lead. There are. Mhmm.

But we're also saying there are lots and lots and many, many qualified good women out there ready to teach, preach, and lead. And saying that their calling is any less from God

is wrong. I've heard that, and this wasn't something that I I never really felt a call to ministry necessarily.

Mhmm.

But something that I've heard from women who feel a call to ministry is that they're told when they're younger, if they say that, if they voice it.

Mhmm.

That they're being called to be pastor's wives.

That was in Beth Allison Barr's Yeah.

And I'm not saying that the that being a pastor's wife isn't very important. It is. I think you have an important role. But if God is calling you to ministry as a woman, there are many forms that that could take. Mhmm.

It could take lead pastor. It could take missionary. It could take a million different things in ministry.

And why this is kind of getting off the rails here, but like, would being called into ministry mean that you would marry a pastor? Because why are we defining ourselves based on what our spouse's career is?

Mhmm.

You wouldn't be like, I'm being called to engineering. That must mean I'm gonna marry an engineer. No. It doesn't It doesn't. Compute.

It means, like, God is calling you to something Mhmm. Much bigger. And if you happen to marry someone also in that field, awesome. But you are worthy of going to follow that calling from Jesus. Mhmm.

And not to have to wait on a man to do it. Mm-mm. Because let's say, okay, let's say you do feel like a calling to ministry, and you don't meet a pastor that you fall in love with. Yeah. What if they all are wearing stupid shoes and denim jackets, and you're not into that?

Like, are you supposed to wait on your calling from God until you happen to find a pastor that you wanna marry? Are you supposed to tell God, I will only marry pastor? Like, these are things that don't make a lot of sense to me.

That's what I was finding interesting. Was watching a couple of TikToks about decentering men from your life. And this girl was talking about how you don't even realize how many decisions you make in your life with the focus of men involved. And she's like, it's a practice. It's like a muscle you have to exercise in your brain to center yourself instead, and think, if I were to never ever get married, like if it was not an option, what would I do?

Mhmm. And then go do those things. What career would you have? Would you travel? Would you live in the same area?

Would you post those pictures?

Why are you posting those pictures?

Are you wearing what you want to wear because it's what you want to wear, or because you're concerned about how men will perceive it? Or what tattoos or piercings or color hair you Like, what decisions are you making in your life solely based on what men Mhmm.

Would think about it? I think that's been huge for me lately because I I mean, I've said this before, but I just got a really big tattoo down my arm. And I didn't do it for a really long time. I've wanted a sleeve tattoo for ages. I feel like I've talking about it forever.

Forever. I didn't do it because because there is this fear. And for me, it's it's not just the men in my life. It's just sort of the general society of my life. Mhmm.

But like, there is this fear of like, well, what if I'm not attractive anymore? Mhmm.

Or like, this isn't feminine enough.

Right. Exactly. But then I got it done, and I realized that I feel more myself. Mhmm. It's attractive to you.

Exactly. Like, I love this about myself. And no one can take it away from me. And no one can Unless we chop off your arm. Unless we chop off my arm.

Which I would prefer that we not do, if it's all the same. If we have to, we have to. But like, it's just something that I get to love about me. Mhmm. It doesn't really matter.

And is it hard sometimes when people make comments? Of course. But it doesn't really matter

Mhmm.

If everyone else hates it because it's something that I get to love about me. So, yeah, what are things that you could love about you that you're not doing because broader society says not to? Mhmm. Because broader society says it's not feminine.

Yeah. You're just not doing because you're concerned about what other people might think. For example, burping. You're so weird when you're tired. Anyway, so the last person that I wanted to talk about, as we try to get back on track,

is Rachel Held Evans, who is our more modern person. She's someone that you may have heard of if you're in the Christian feminist space often. She was born in 1981, and she unfortunately passed away in 2019. So just a few years ago. Rachel was a really prominent figure in I don't even just wanna say, like, the Christian feminist movement.

She was, for sure. But kind of just the Christian equality movement. Mhmm. Because she was talking about all kinds of marginalized people. She was inviting them into church.

She was inviting them into faith, into a relationship with God when nobody else was. And giving people a quality that were always, always, always secondary. So she was a really cool figure. I have a lot of respect for her. But here's a little bit of her story.

So she got a a degree in English. Useful. As we all know, my degree is very useful. But she started publishing books in 02/2008. And she was publishing with Zondervan, which is a very prominent Christian publisher in The US.

And her first book was called Evolving in Monkeytown, which was all about, like, deconstructing faith. Mhmm. And like we talk about all the time, pulling it apart and seeing what sticks.

Mhmm.

Not just following what you were taught to follow. I feel like I'm

in monkey town. Just pretty much every day Like of our four days a week.

Then in 2012, she wrote a book called A Year of Biblical Womanhood Mhmm. Which was one of the first Christian feminist books that I read. I think it was maybe the second one that I read. And it's all about she follows for an entire year. And she was also a journalist, so it's from this, like, journalistic perspective.

She follows for an entire year very strictly all of the things that the Bible says women should do. Like, even though we can look at the Bible and can say, okay, contextually, we don't need to be doing that. Mhmm. She was like, I'm gonna follow this just to say Word for word.

This is what it says. There

we So she did for a whole year. And I think, based on the book, made her husband very uncomfortable because he was not like on board with So one of them is, like, keeping her head covered. One of them was calling him

I forget what she called him.

Master. It might have been that. Ew. It for, like and she would do different things for a month. Mhmm.

And just like for a whole year, just like documenting it. What was it like? What was that experience like? How did it impact their relationship? Mhmm.

And why does she believe that the Bible does or does not require this of women, of people, of whatever anymore?

Mhmm.

And it's a great book. Like, I highly recommend it. Like I said, it was one of the first ones that I read. And I love how she she pulls it apart because she says, look, I'm gonna do the thing. Mhmm.

But then after being the person who does the thing, none of you have done the thing. Yep. But after being the person who did the thing, here's my experience, here's why it did or didn't work, and here's what we need to do moving forward.

Give me my space. I'm about to talk. Yeah.

So so good. Mhmm.

So that was published

in 2012. And then in 2015, she wrote an article, like I said, she's a journalist, that was called Want Millennials Back in the Pews? Stop Trying to Make Church Cool.

But you can When millennials when

we were the younger ones. But I think all of these show that she has a pattern of not accepting the standard church churchiness.

Mhmm.

You know? Not ex not just accepting what she's been given. Not just accepting what the male lead pastors in the world are handing down for people to deal with. Mhmm. But to say, no, I I expect something else.

Mhmm. And we're either gonna do it or I'm gonna force it. Like, she was gonna change her world whether people liked it or not.

Yeah. Expecting more out of the people around you and expecting to be treated well. Mhmm. Radical.

Expecting to be treated well has been such an issue Mhmm. For us lately. Mhmm. Because as we, you know, we talked a couple weeks ago last week

Who knows? We're always talking.

About our struggles with I think it was last week. With church and feeling safe in church. And that has led both of us to not really have a space Mhmm. Where we feel comfortable. And so you look at someone like Rachel Held Evans, and she demanded better.

Mhmm. She demanded better of the spaces around her, and she was gonna make that world better. And I hope that as we talk to you guys, that we can make your faith based space a little better. Because the communities that we've found ourselves in have not been that for us. Mhmm.

So what does it look like to demand safety? It

feels like Iceland to me. Iceland? Mhmm.

They do have a lot of women in their government.

I'm very pro that. Statistically, the happiest country on planet Earth. Let's go. Let's go.

Alright. Tomorrow. So then in 2016, President Barack Obama of The United States A different Barack. A different one. We talked about

them both this time. Yeah. What a Barack sandwich. We've made this.

He appointed her to the President's Advisory Council on Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships.

Should we say it? I miss Obama.

I'm with you. I think that's really, like, so significant. And I'm sure that, you know, we've got people on both well, I'm not sure at this point that we have people on both sides of the political spectrum. We really have leaned one way and stayed in that lane.

You might call us Eileen. You might. If you're our father.

But she was given a really distinguished position. Mhmm. Not because of her gender. Not because she was some televangelist that everybody knew the name of. Like, lot of presidents will choose for advisory councils, things like that.

But because she was showing Jesus' love. Mhmm. Because her voice was significant in a space that wasn't given a lot of attention.

She was showing Jesus' love in a way that it had not been shown Mhmm. In a long time, I think. Mhmm. So often, especially from the Christian people, Jesus' love is shown as judgment. Mhmm.

And how radical is it to not have that? Mhmm. To actually show love is like unconditional. Mhmm. No matter who you are, what gender you are, what color you are, this is the true love of Jesus.

Mhmm. And how much more good are you able to do by showing that? Well, I think if you

when you talk to, like, psychologists and things like that, conditional love is so damaging. Mhmm. One of the worst things that you can do to your kids as they grow up is show them conditional love. Which means, I love you and I will show that I love you, but only if you follow these rules. Mhmm.

Only if you do what I say. There's there's a limit. Right. Christians take Jesus's love and they make it conditional. Mhmm.

Jesus didn't make it conditional. God doesn't make it conditional. Christians make God's love conditional.

In fact, he made it so unconditional. Like, think about him dying on the cross. And now think about the worst person that you can think of. Mhmm. And he died on the cross for that person too.

The absolute worst.

Or even just, you know, frankly, forget the worst people. The people you really don't like.

The Karens. The Karens. And the what's a good male equivalent of Karen? The Kyles.

Alright. Sorry to France and Ireland and Karen and Kyle. It's been a surprising amount of offense today. Alright. Couple more points about Rachel.

So she co founded a conference called Evolving Faith with Sarah Bessie, who they were super good friends. Sarah Bessie wrote Jesus Feminist, which I think is like the best book to introduce you to this topic ever. That was your first book. It was my first book. Ever.

Not not that.

No. It was the first book she ever read.

That's just not true. My first book in this space. But I think that's, like, the gold standard of, like, how to introduce yourself to the Christian feminist sphere.

Mhmm.

But so they were really good friends. They co founded this conference. The first year that they did it, they said it was for young progressive Christians. So they were targeting because at the time millennials were considered young, so they were targeting

the millennials. Ugh. That's no longer the case. Our knees don't work. I just said that today.

Well, you say that every day. That's true. But I came up the stairs at work and I was like, ugh. What would it be like to have knees?

I don't know. Period. Mine have been cut out. Yeah. Just straight out of my body.

But anyway, so they expected to have 200 people. That was sort of like their highest and best goal, you know? And instead, 1,400 people showed up.

I'm gonna guess it was a little bit of chaos. They would need some loaves and fishes. Oh my gosh. But a bunch of people

showed up because because their message was so strong.

Mhmm. Because people were looking for this.

Mhmm. The bible says that people should know you by your fruit. Right?

Mhmm. I bet you they had some good fruit. And they ran out fast.

Ran out really fast. But people should flock to you, not because you're standing on the street corner throwing Bibles at them, but because you have shown so much of God's love Mhmm. That they just can't help but wanna be around you. Mhmm. And that's what happened here with these two women who were and are incredible leaders.

Mhmm.

Now by the time Rachel passed away, she actually no longer considered herself evangelical because she did she did still have faith, but she didn't consider herself evangelical because of the church's ties to the far right. Which is really interesting because she passed away in 2019. Here we are in 2025 in the same boat. Yep. But I wanted to read a quote about her.

So this quote is from Emma Green who wrote for The Atlantic. She said that Evans was part of a vanguard of progressive Christian women who fought to change the way Christianity is taught and perceived in The United States. Well, she said she argued that Evans's legacy was her unwillingness to cede ownership of Christianity to its traditional conservative male stewards. And that her very public, vulnerable exploration of a faith forged in doubt empowered a ragtag band of writers, pastors, and teachers to claim their rightful place as Christians. That's super incredible.

Imagine that being

said about you. They won't say that about me. They'll be like, Brian.

You're standing on her head. Yep.

And that's all there is. There is not anymore.

I just think nothing better could be said about you. Mhmm. And I've heard a lot of criticism of her because she was progressive, because she was welcoming of the LGBTQ community, because she believed women could and should lead. Mhmm. Because she didn't put limits on God's love.

I've heard a lot of criticism of her. You can do a quick Google search. You'll find it. But at the end of her life, that's what she's known as.

When our greatest calling is to lead other people to Christ and to love each other, I think she fulfilled the prompt. Mhmm. A plus. A plus.

She got an A plus. Whatever the best is is that you can do on

the SAT. But think about, like think about her legacy. Mhmm. And then think about a lot of, like, the very popular male pastors that you would think that that should be their legacy. Mhmm.

Right? Bringing other people to Christ. But usually, it's like, oh, whoops. Mhmm. They got someone pregnant.

Oh, whoops. They abused their power. Right. Oh. Actually

Whoops. So John MacArthur, who was a very well known pastor, just passed away yesterday. I really I did not personally know a whole lot about him.

I'm not focusing on men these days. I don't know.

But I I've read a lot about the situation because, frankly, it's all over the pages that I follow. So here we are. But as you read more about him now, you guys might not be as familiar with him either. He was older. Like, I don't think he's, like, you know, on all the TikToks right now or anything.

What? I know. Wild. But he essentially used his theology to promote misogyny, to promote racism, to promote authoritarianism.

Like,

he took the Lord's work. Right. He took the Bible and he weaponized the Bible.

Mhmm.

And you're seeing all these articles come out about his abuse, about women that went to him with troubles in their marriage, and he said, you have to stay in that marriage regardless of whether he abuses you or not. Mhmm. Because the Bible says so.

Mhmm.

Because God hates divorce. Which we've done we've talked about before, and it's not what the Bible says at all.

But this is

what he will be known for. Mhmm. At least by the marginalized abuse of power. Right. And hate.

There will be people that hold him up on a pedestal because there always are people that hold that sort of person up on a pedestal. But Jesus said, what you do for the least of these, you've done for me. What you've done for them, you've done for Jesus. But when you've lived a life promoting those in power anyway Mhmm. You haven't done a lot for Jesus at the end of the day.

No. Done a lot for yourself. Mhmm. Well, on that note. So I hope

you guys liked learning about these women. I really like I found that because I grew up in a very, like, evangelical space, I didn't learn a lot about women, the strong women in the world. And so, like, I really like to learn about some of them. Some of these women I knew about, some of them I didn't. In two weeks, you will be hearing an interview from us.

We are interviewing an author. Her name is Heather Fraser. She has a book coming out this year, and it's called Mom Got Jesus Wrong. Hallelujah. It is a fiction book that talks about deconstructing faith and finding out what makes sense Mhmm.

For you. So we're gonna be talking to her in you'll hear that episode in about two weeks. Next week is a new adventure that I don't know what we'll do yet.

The chronicles of Narnia and stepping into a closet and coming out next to a goat man. I'm good. I don't think we should do that one. Or perhaps we could talk about something different.

Perhaps. So stay tuned. We won't be talking about that. Not to worry. But get excited for two weeks from now.

We're very excited to hear from Heather. So we will talk to you then. I'll see you then.

The lord bless and keep you. You do that a lot. I do that a lot in my life. Really? Yeah.

I just do it a lot. Okay. I'm hot. Love you. Bye.

Let's go. Goodbye.