Brad Frost: Sacha Hello.
we're just gonna dive right in and I'm really excited to hear what has
you waking up excited right now.
Sacha: Yeah what a great prompt I think what what's got me most excited at the
moment is a startup that I'm working on uh which is called Lume Music This
isn't about to be an ad for that but the thesis behind it is finding a new way
to um consume music in this era where everything is subscription focused and
where the system is broken for everyone but importantly for artists who can't
make a living wage so we've spent a couple of years now thinking about how we
might shift that And um we are launching with a new digital album format that
comes Bundled with extra content that dedicated music lovers and fans want to
see from their faves So behind the scenes uh video photography handwritten lyrics
the story of an album and packaging that all together in a really beautiful app
experience And I think what's making me excited about it is like all startups
you get to spend time with people who are really optimistic and creative about
the world I think to be um A startup founder you have to have an enormous
amount of hope and optimism and positivity because otherwise you wouldn't be doing
it Uh and that's something that I've always loved about the startup space
which I've been sort of adjacent to or working in for um nearly 15 years now
And it's still what I love most about it and particularly this one to be doing
it um surrounded by creative people who just wanna do the thing that they love
and are sort of constantly facing an uphill battle to make that possible to
be building something that we hope will help them with that is really exciting So
Brad Frost: That's, oh my God.
I mean, like, that's, there's a lot there.
So one, it sounds like you're, you're reviving the physicality
of an album of like, like an LP or even, whatever, CDs, doesn't matter.
Cassettes, like, there's the, the, the tactile multi format
nature of music is not just like a thing that we, we listen to.
That's like one aspect of it, but there's like the whole like getting to know
them and understanding and interpreting.
Sacha: And I think for whatever reason the album is still the pinnacle of an
artist's musical expression And I think artists spend a long time thinking
about the world of an album like the songs that are gonna make the album
and the songs that aren't the order that they go in the story that it tells
the um artwork and the photography and the brand Not not in the commercial
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: the look and
Brad Frost: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sacha: and now that just gets chopped up and thrown
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: and um you know your only sense of artist is the little square you know
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: that they get and so we never really get to experience it the way
That the artist made it you know so the the songs go on Spotify or or Apple or
wherever and then the everything else sort of winds up fragmented You might see a bit
of it on social or you might see a bit of it on YouTube or you might you know you
might get some of it in in a fan mailing list or whatever but we really wanna
Brad Frost: And it,
Sacha: together
Brad Frost: and it's, that's all labor and it's additional labor for
artists that are, that are just like already buried and like you said,
like having this, this uphill battle.
And it's just like, left, right and center.
Any attempt to carve out a viable living and, you know, actually do things
in an authentic and sustainable way, just like the rug just continually
gets pulled out from under them.
Sacha: not
Brad Frost: And it's,
Sacha: anyone Now you know it's not working for artists obviously it hasn't
been for a long time but it's also now not working for labels it's not working for
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: know it's discovery is becoming impossible Um you know the the flood of
AI generated music is making it impossible Like just everything about it is kind
of wrong But I think the other thing is You know there's a real push online to
talk about that return to analog And uh you know I wrote a newsletter recently
about distinction that I am trying to articulate because I think a real tendency
to sort of push back and go oh I'm just gonna get offline I'm gonna stop using
my phone I'm gonna return to touching grass and and the physical world and
listen to vinyl and whatever And and I really appreciate that instinct but I
don't think that it's It's necessarily the right answer cause I I think that
the problem is not that something is digital it's that we are consuming
everything online in this constant algorithmic feed of you know this fire
Brad Frost: Yes,
Sacha: of content And so in that piece I was trying to articulate a different
distinction which for me is the difference between feed and q and I think things
that you put in your queue which might be a long form article that you bookmark
or it might be an audio book that you've been meaning to listen to or a
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: podcast or whatever Those can be slow intentional experiences Um
and so for me the distinction isn't between digital and analog It's between
feed and queue It's like the things that are being thrown at me versus the
things that I have chosen to experience
Brad Frost: that.
that distinction that, that kind of feed versus q, the difference,
the biggest difference between that is like an intentionality I am.
In control of my cue, and I am wanting and willing and hoping to, to watch
this video or to listen to this song.
And I am like, like intentionally making decisions versus like you said,
the fire hose to the face of just like, we're just getting blasted by
this potpourri of just everything with literally no, no intention, no nothing.
It's just literally random crap.
Yeah.
Sacha: A real content whiplash right Because you're seeing a war crime
followed by a reality TV final followed
Brad Frost: Yes,
Sacha: show followed by a protest And it's like our brains can't
weren't built We weren't built for that
Brad Frost: Yeah.
ha ha ha ha.
Holy shit.
I've talked about it a a bit before and it's just like when you zoom out
at this phenomenon that is now what is literally like how hours upon hours
of most human beings are spending.
Part of their day, which is, that's depressing in its own right.
what in that world is that doing to us, like psychologically like
that is, that is not healthy.
And to think that it, it had in any way that was intentionally
designed, which they were like, that's the, these, these products
made their way out into the world.
Like there's, there's professional designers who I've spent
a long time creating this.
It's, it's truly baffling to me that if you were to just like kind of.
Take a step back, and I do wanna talk to you about this a little bit.
It's like your, your history of kind of the world of online spaces and
how it's kind of progressed and how we've gotten to this moment, and
then what we ought to do about it.
Sacha: our corporate landlords have a lot to answer for in that sense
You know this has come about because platforms focused on engagement and
Brad Frost: Yep.
Sacha: is engagement and they wanna keep us still and scrolling And
know I think I think a lot of that is about how these companies were
established and funded So there's
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: sort of capitalist underpinning to that I think the venture capital
funding model rewards growth at all costs
Brad Frost: yeah,
Sacha: um that the the way that you achieve Hypersonic growth is is through
using these kind of dark patterns So you know we can see how we got here
Brad Frost: yeah.
Sacha: but I think it's it's not working for anyone I don't think you
meet anyone who's like yeah I love to discover that I lost an hour scrolling on
Brad Frost: Yeah.
but, but you, you, you touched on something though, like, like right out
of the gate in talking about sort of like startups and I, I thought that
that was like a really fascinating thing is just like talking about like
positivity and hope and an optimism.
But I think that there's, there's also something that you're really sort of
touching on and I think I, I really like admire in you in that like there's a
real responsibility and intentionality and like good values and good like kind
of community driven values that isn't just about like hope and optimism.
It's like cause what we've seen play out with, with the social media landscape
and, and the internet landscape is like those people had plenty of hope and
optimism for the hockey stick, right?
Like for the hockey stick, for that, for that infinite growth, for
that hypersonic growth or whatever.
So it's like, what are you actually like.
Trying to like direct your hope and optimism at,
Sacha: yeah that's a useful distinction cause I think particularly at this moment
when AI is making uh much more trivial I think that the the bros chasing the
hockey stick everywhere now You know like as a as a sort of shorthand for people
who it used it used to be a mantra in startup life that ideas were easy and
execution was hard right Like that that it was very simple to come up with your
brand new app idea but actually building something that was useful and that people
wanted and whatever was the complicated bit And and I think we're seeing a little
bit of an inversion now because of course um anyone can throw a prompt at code and
lovable and whatever and have something up very quickly setting aside the Ethics
and the environmental impact and the you know war profiteering and everything that
goes with it But execution has become more straightforward And um I think that
that means that what's going to should be the focus in the next phase is okay well
anyone could build something So what's behind it Like what's who are the team
and what do they care about And what is their domain expertise And do they deeply
understand this idea and the people that they're building it for And um I think
when startups can become a dime a dozen some slightly different um levers are
gonna come into play yeah there's there's gonna be new kinds of disruption I think
Brad Frost: yeah, yeah.
Just a hard agree on all those fronts, and I think that it's like my hope and
optimism is that exactly what you're describing, like when all of this just
becomes just so, so noisy, so whatever that, that, you know, we're going to
be flooded with everything we're all, I think, collectively at a human level
looking for human real, authentic.
Good things to, to, to latch onto.
They are like really, like going to be like the, the, the life
raft in an ocean of very, very, very noisy, competing like slop.
Sacha: I've been writing a lot over the last year about what discovery looks
like in a post search era because we know that that search is broken now You
know like at its most simple level if you want to buy a new Kettle You can't
um just search best kettles on Google because the first like 30 pages will
be AI slop and so we have to return to a human element And I've been doing
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: of interviews on my newsletter called Curating the Curators where
I've been talking to people who write curation based newsletters or or blogs
or sites because there's something really interesting to me about the of
of the newsletter Not so much in the people pumping out their hot takes
but the people who we subscribe to or we follow because we trust that
they're gonna bring together Curate an interesting series of links or articles or
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: thoughts on a topic And that to me is really reminiscent of the early web
Um because those of us who are decrepit and ancient remember the web before
search engines And in that era we relied on human curation You know Justin's hot
links from the underground was how we found things And I think in this next
phase where the sheer tidal wave of slop that we have to wade through some people
are relying on LMS to tell em and without
Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.
Sacha: the limitations of that and other people myself included are like
let's get back to a more human centered
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: where we relied on people to um to do that labor and to share
their Their journeys and where
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: And and so yeah I've been spending a lot of time over the last year writing
about some of this stuff You know like the dark forest theory of the internet the
digital gardens like all of this kind of what does it look like when we have to go
exploring again um because it's not easy to find things And how do we share those
journeys with other people How do we share more of our work in progress sort of re
fostering that sense that the internet is a kind of limitless place but it doesn't
have to be a limitless place full of crap
Brad Frost: This might seem like a very weird follow up question to all
of this, but where are you based and what's your go-to Thai restaurant?
Sacha: Ah I'm based in Auckland in Ero New Zealand my go-to Thai restaurant is
uh an Uber Eats place that delivers an incredible uh pineapple fried rice which
is one of my comfort foods I dunno why I just love it I drink COVID I had to
learn how to make authentic pineapple fried rice myself because I couldn't get
Brad Frost: I, they weren't,
Sacha: Um yeah well we
Brad Frost: what's it called?
Sacha: time we couldn't
Brad Frost: Or do you just like, have it on like speed dial?
Sacha: Ooh I've got it on speed dial
Brad Frost: This is good.
Well, we could, we could find out if they, uh, deliver to,
uh, outside of New Zealand.
Outside of Auckland.
it's that, that question is like the, the thing that I've
been kind of picking at just.
not that one specifically, but, but that, the spirit of that, right.
Of like the, I feel like Thai food and I think that like, as you know,
and how do we find that today?
Well, we bust out either the Uber Eats and we're like looking just my
eyes, just go straight to the how many reviews and how many, like five star
what things like, it's, it's total like blindness to everything else.
It's like, oh good, this one seems popular and
Sacha: is a terrible example right Because we know that it's it's not
paying the restaurants properly
Brad Frost: yeah,
Sacha: the growth of Ghost Kitchens where you think that you are ordering
from a place that you know and you're
Brad Frost: yeah,
Sacha: from some sort of
Brad Frost: yeah.
Sacha: you know so
Brad Frost: But even like Google, even like Google Maps and like other
things, you got like the sponsor results and stuff is like, and at the
end of the day though, I, I, I think that like as our ability to trust.
Those results.
Again, just even pre pre ai, like the sponsored results, it's
like crowded everything out.
It's like, how do we get to like you?
Sacha: Reddit is going through a renaissance at the moment because Reddit
has become one of the few human places
Brad Frost: Yep,
Sacha: to find recommendations and and answers you know
Brad Frost: yep,
Sacha: um a Reddit thread will will now be often my first stop if I'm trying to
work out why something doesn't work or what the best thing is or a a review of
a product because I know that for all of its flaws Reddit is still a place
with human people and human moderation
Brad Frost: yep.
Sacha: um long may that continue
Brad Frost: Hell yeah.
I've shared that, or, or, or sort of experienced that as well, where
it's like, yeah, we're going like, to like seek for like, again, just
like realness, like, and, and what realness is, is increasingly going to
be a difficult question to, to answer.
And so that's where it's like, it gets pretty philosophical, pretty quick.
Gets into like, it's like, okay, I, I know that I am here talking to you and
I don't know much else that could exist.
I know it's raining outside.
It's like, like we're literally like looking for things that we could latch
onto and I could like just, all you need to do is just fast forward two years and I
am utterly and completely terrified about our ability to even just kind of like
process, like what's, what's real or not.
So I think that these, these instincts to kind of like go to, to where humans
are and to go like, okay, like I know.
That other humans are real and this online avatar, we are gonna
need to figure that thing out too.
we understand it to be a problem.
There's now like.
Plenty of like research.
There's that like even kind of within the companies and stuff themselves is
like starting, you know, some semblance of acknowledgement of, of the harm, but
there doesn't really seem to be like a whole lot of like answers or counter
weight thrown around to, to change course.
Sacha: but they are are small scale or local answers and I don't I
don't think that that's necessarily wrong I think we didn't know what
Twitter was when it came out right
Brad Frost: Hmm.
Sacha: when Twitter first emerged um it was like the apt to post your sandwich
at lunchtime right It wasn't an apt to destroy democracy Um and so I think
things will continue to emerge Twitter for its first few years was extremely
niche Um you had to be a giant nerd to be on it I remember giving a I was a
partner in a law firm at the time giving a presentation to my partners about why
our firm should be on Twitter you know and it's like they didn't understand what
it was and and so I think I think it's really easy to look now at this handful
of platforms that we're stuck with as inevitable that this is all there is And
you know there's never gonna be anything else We're just stuck with short form
video everything apps Um but I don't think that's true And I think some of the
optimism that I still feel is when I see smaller um efforts in new directions And
and you know one of the things that gives me hope at the moment is what's going
on with App Proto and Blue Sky and Black Sky and North Sky and and the uh various
apps that are built on that um protocol leaflet and Tangled and and whatever And
I think there's a tendency to dismiss those efforts and go yeah but you know
nobody's there except the nerds And it's like well nobody's there except the nerds
always in the beginning Um but something sort of fundamental is different there
when it comes to your ability to control what it is that you are Um you know your
ability to customize your own feeds and your own experience your ability to build
things on top of that protocol that are genuinely decentralized and not in a Uh
ferociously hard to understand mastodon sort of way and I think those kinds of
sparks uh I think it's very easy to just be a downer about it and go oh yeah it's a
little left wing echo chamber or it's you know it's never gonna be as big as Twitter
I don't think we want anything as big
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: Again
Brad Frost: that's right.
That's right.
Sacha: wrong with that and so I think the the bigger challenge is to reach
people for whom the internet's been ruined because their experience is just
terrible and they've just opted out
Brad Frost: Yep.
Sacha: and fair enough too
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: but to start to to start to sort of build those community neighborhoods
again where you can start to share with people who share your interests
or who are near you geographically or who care about the same community
outreach or whatever those things are
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: um and build those healthy human scale spaces Again in the way that we
used to have in weird had little Usenet groups or early live journal communities
or whatever your experience of the early web used to be some guitar forum
or or bodybuilder forum or whatever
Brad Frost: the, what would happen if we put all of humanity in the
same room to together and allowed everybody to just talk to everyone
that that is proven out to be.
But, and, and for very real, you know, kind of like evolutionary reasons, right?
Uh, there's, you know, the idea of like Dunbar's number and like all
this stuff where it's just like, yeah, we, our brains only have some,
we have like an upper limit and sort of like how many like connections and
relationships we could, we could handle.
But also just the, our idea of, of in and out, you know, groups and
tribes and, and the rest of it.
It's like when we just short circuit all of that or put 'em all to the same
room, it's not compatible with our, with just like our neural wiring after
like, like many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many centuries of just
evolving a certain way at a certain pace.
the answer isn't necessarily the off switch, although absolutely there,
there can and should be more of a, a return in, in a blend of the
physical and visual world and, and that those aren't mutually exclusive,
but like digital stuff is good stuff.
Like there's a lot there.
It just requires like the right type of design, the right kind of of
foundations the right kind of values in place to, to, to make it so,
Sacha: even with the right value system in place like I gave a talk in at Beyond
Brad Frost: Mm.
Sacha: couple years ago called Everything Breaks At Scale And and my thesis in that
was like best Will in the world like scale is just a terrible thing to happen to
you because uh anything that happens fast and at that Those sizes you know is is
gonna produce these results Like we just can't So you know you see a company like
WeWork grow from sort of 10 people in a office to tens of thousands of employees
at a festival style retreat and you go of course that fell apart How can you
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: can you build a company that quickly that large with good
HR and good leveling and good
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: culture and good like no you see the same thing in the growth of
megachurches for example You with ultimately great values but Fast growth
heaps of people you know nobody's got an eye on culture Nobody's got an eye
on whether people are being protected and supported So so I think I think
obviously values are important but I think scale does something irreparable
that that just kind of poisons whatever it is you're trying to do
Brad Frost: As, as you're saying this, you're the, the fact that you're in
New Zealand becomes very apparent and I, 'cause I feel, I feel, I
feel like, like New Zealand maybe.
Sacha: syndrome
Brad Frost: Well, no, no, but my understanding is that because of New
Zealand's just location history of the, the whole nine yards ecology.
There's like kind of an attitude towards like, there's, there's a finitude to
You can't explode your population to like billions upon billions of people.
Like you, you can't like do I've always understood you all to like
have to care more about sort of, uh, sustainability and, and like what you
are allowing in, and there there's just like a little bit more like thought
to it just because of like the, the nature of in shape of your country.
I don't know.
Is that, is that wrong?
Is that, or is that, or I, I, I might be wildly off the mark there, but.
Sacha: is I think there is something to that I think our isolation and our
distance and our population size does probably put some sort of different fences
around what we do And I think probably we saw that most keenly during COVID
um when we took a different approach to everywhere else in the world Um pretty
much so so yeah I think I think there is something to that hypergrowth is
something that um is a pretty recent phenomenon The idea that you can be global
from day one which is a a phrase that gets kicked around here a lot It's like
if you're gonna build a company in New Zealand there's no point in building it
for the New Zealand market cause the New Zealand market's too small So you have
to build something that's capable of of being global right from the start And I
think there's um some pluses and minuses with that as we've discovered You know
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: maybe maybe we don't wanna build things that are global from day one
Brad Frost: Right.
Sacha: want to build things that that work on smaller scales and uh for specific
communities or um for specific purposes rather than trying to be everything to
everyone And and I think you know when you think about design choices I wrote
a piece last year about the the design of the Everything app because I feel
like the even just the look and feel of our platform apps they're becoming
indistinguishable You know like if you look at the front page of your Spotify
app it's um audio books podcasts video podcasts they're now moving into selling
physical books It's like the the reason you went there Which was music you loved
is increasingly buried under a torrent of other things Substack the same You know
like a platform that begins as a place for independent writers is now video
content um social media style short form posts Now they've got Substack tv is what
a chat show You know like it's um and so they the motivation to keep everyone
on your app for as long as possible
Brad Frost: Yes.
Sacha: of produces this b b the apps so that that they're they're all the same
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: you know I I don't think that's what we want We want to you know
there's a reason that we resist chain experiences chain restaurants or chain
bars except when we need sort of know the the reliability of knowing that a
Big Mac tastes more or less the same everywhere and the reason we resist
that is because we want personalized experiences You know we want we
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: neighborhood feel or a local feel or a great pineapple
fried rice You know like we
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: don't want it to feel the same everywhere
Brad Frost: yeah.
I, I, and I love, I love that corollary, like to the physical world.
One of my, my favorite articles of all times written by my, my
friend Rachel Andrew called, that, called The Small Shops of the Web
or something to, to that nature.
And at the time she was working on like, kind of like a small scale
content management system that was like a, you know, a, a a paid thing.
she describes this, that street right with those local restaurants, so with the local
butchered, with like the local bookseller and with like that, the, the local
butcher doesn't wanna scale to become also a bookseller all of a sudden, oh, by
the way, like here and, and here's our.
Yeah.
Here's our, our suite of, of barbecue gear.
And, and it's like, no, how about, how about we all just like coexist?
And it, it, it gets, it gets, I think like what you're touching on are like
kind of two things that are, that are, are front of mind for me is just like
a wholesale rethinking about growth in general as like a desirable thing.
growth versus sustainability.
Like, like, we wanna sustain the local butcher shops.
We wanna sustain the local bookshops.
And yes, there needs to be like enough of a, you know, money
coming in to keep those lights on.
But like the, growth isn't good in that case, right?
Like, we want, we wanna sustain that like healthy.
And then there's also this, this idea of competition versus collaboration.
And I, I can't.
Stress enough?
Just like, like how unhealthy I see.
Like any, really as time goes on, aside from like sports, I like, competition
is so incredibly awful when it comes to doing things that are meant to,
like we are all the recipients of people competing against each other,
countries competing against each other.
It's companies competing against each other we all get a shit
experience as a result of it.
So it's like we need to figure out right quick how to start actually
like collaborating with one another to realize, oh yeah, like maybe I shouldn't.
Be the bookseller and I should like, we should figure out how to
like, kind of feed one another.
And that's what you see with like a vibrant main street.
Like that has the things like, yeah, you go to that street and you're
gonna wander up and down the street and you're gonna have a charming
experience, a diverse experience.
And it's the entirety of that charming main street, not one
particular shop that is like, that is contributing to, to the charm and
to the, to the, to the ecosystem.
Sacha: to continue that that physical world analogy you know those vibrant
neighborhoods don't happen by accident
Brad Frost: Yes.
Sacha: a whole bunch of infrastructure that underpins a great neighborhood and
Brad Frost: Right.
Sacha: requires human centered governance It it requires sort of long term thinking
It requires a whole bunch of stuff And so when you pull that analogy back into the
digital world um that's when people sort of go it's too hard Like you can't you
can't fix it now like the genie's out the bottle This is just what we're stuck with
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: I refuse to believe that because you know I often quote Molly White when
she talks about how the internet is still outside the walls And um that was one of
the most helpful sort of things I I think for me to understand is that we've come
to accept this handful of wall gardens that we're all living in now but the web
is infinite Like it just it's out there and we can build whatever spaces we like
We can um make whatever communities we can throw up whatever infrastructure
And as we were saying earlier that that's becoming uh easier not harder
Brad Frost: Yep.
Sacha: and and I think the What we have to change attitudinally is this
tendency to go well but I have to build something that that's for everyone Or I
have to you know this is only a success if it's the next Twitter or the next
TikTok and it's like no the success will be dozens hundreds thousands
of great healthy neighborhoods not
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: giant city again
Brad Frost: Yeah.
No, I, I couldn't agree more.
I think that that's, that's like really beautiful and most of these places
have been built as like basic human or, or like kind of communication
protocols or with that idea of, it's like, ah, yes, we want like literally
everyone to be using it because of the aspirations of scale or whatever.
But it's like there's, there's, there's something intentionally,
deliberately small, right?
This is for New Zealand only.
Sacha: It's a focus right Like who is it for And
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: somewhere along the way like you used to talk about product development and
user personas and whatever and you knew specifically who you were building for
Brad Frost: yeah,
Sacha: along the line the goal became well it has to work for everyone And it's like
we we know that it can't so I think it's also about focus It's about coming back
and saying who is this for And you know
Brad Frost: yeah.
Sacha: when when while we've been building Lume you know we have to keep
focusing on the fact that this is for a a subset of people This is for music
lovers who want to sit down and immerse themselves in an album's experience
It's not for everyone And um you know 80 90 of people will continue to put on a
Spotify playlist in the background and be perfectly content do that you know like
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: summer afternoon and you chuck on aha lounge tracks whatever because all
you're looking for is that background music and you're not sitting down to
immerse yourself in an artist's work
so maintaining that rigid focus like who is this for I think is really key And and
along the way we sort of decided that you know it had to be for everyone and you
just you can't build that way and the the products that come out the other side of
that process are don't work for anyone
Brad Frost: like, as you're talking about, like music, it's like, oh, like
you're, you're building a product that is, that is a kind of a representation
of what actual music is most successful.
Music, successful in the sense that successful music is something
that I feel like is, is a true reflection of, true expression of
the human beings who created it.
Not, not commercially successful, not like, like anything like that, the
goal with that, the goal is truth.
The goal is is authentic expression versus, is me adding that quaver to
my voice, gonna sell some more copies.
The thing like, that's not, that's not it.
Yeah.
Sacha: Last night I was lucky enough to go and hear a New Zealand musician Julia
Deans perform her new album through for the first time And it's uh I guess it'll
be out by the time this drops And it's about her journey with cancer and it is an
incredibly personal moving album that is telling a story of a really difficult time
in her life And you know there's there's nothing more real than that And I think
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: of the things that frustrates me a little bit about I mean I spend all my
time writing and thinking about Fans and fandom and online fan communities And one
of the tendencies that that frustrates me at the moment is fans trying to dig
into what is the song about you know like who who is this song about Or what's this
you know like which of Taylor Swift's exes is this song about Or you know who
is Harry Styles dating based on this on this song And it's like it's not a
it's not for us to decode The artist has made something that they're sharing with
you It's not a Rosetta Stone for you
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: um greater access to their personal life
Brad Frost: there's something psychologically that like drives people
or compels people to it is like, Ooh, I like this and I feel like I need to like.
Get closer to it, or I need to, like, it's like, how do I go deeper into this
thing that like, resonates with me, right?
It's like, it's like something, something draws them in and attracts them to Taylor
Swift, Terry Styles, or, or really anyone.
and then it's like, I got, I gotta get closer.
Like, I, I don't know, like, is it, is what drives that stuff or is
it, I don't know, something else?
Sacha: Yeah I think I think there's a few things There's the parasocial
aspect of I wanna know this person or I feel like I know this person um
Brad Frost: Hmm.
Sacha: art or or through their creativity And so you know I wanna
know more they're like my best friend and so I want to sort of
Brad Frost: sure.
Sacha: them
Brad Frost: Sure.
I.
Sacha: there's also something that's happening over the last sort of decade
with um uh I I speak a bit about the the impact of conspiracy thinking on pop
culture and celebrity spaces And I think there's there's something that goes on
where people feel like there's a a puzzle or a mystery to solve There's signs and
signals to to be decoded I used to think that that was kind of cute and harmless
I now think it's a bit of an on-ramp to much more dangerous thinking But in
celebrity spaces it sort of takes the form of um that paparazzi photos are always
staged or that um you know relationships are for PR or you know like this kind
of and there's there's aspects of that that are sort of fun or funny where you
go oh was Beyonce ever really pregnant Or you know like that sort of that's
that feels harmless but actually takes on quite a dark Undertone And I think
there are some artists who lean into that deliberately And Taylor Swift's a a great
example She loves to hide Easter eggs for her fans and you know like sort of drop
signals about what's coming And and she knows that they love that but that that
I think that then drives like a a really intrusive Mode for some people who are
like well she's secretly gay and she's trying to signal that to us by using the
color lavender And uh you you know like it's sort of that that piece um plays
into something which I think is quite a human response We love mysteries and we
Brad Frost: Sure.
Sacha: solving And in celebrity spaces you know there's this mode of gossip
called celebrity blind items or blind items And so you'll often see um posts
that are like which a-list celebrity was seen making out with a you know Euro
pop star after the Golden Globes And uh and people are always trying to solve
blind items and work out who who it is that they're talking about And we love
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: little brain brain tickle
but they're also uh An on ramp to starting to think that everything we
see is staged or fake or for PR or and and it's not a it's not a long leap
to then getting into some of the more complex conspiracy thinking which leads
us down anti-vax and Q anon and much more complicated political kind of roots
Brad Frost: Well, I'm sure that AI is going to fix all of this, so
Sacha: Oh
Brad Frost: we have nothing to,
Sacha: We have nothing to fear unable to
Brad Frost: but
Sacha: anything is real or fake
Brad Frost: it's like those things, like, uh, it's always weird to be like, oh
yeah, when it comes to that like celebrity culture, it's like, oh, poor Taylor Swift.
And like, people are like, ha ha ha.
And it's like, no.
Like, man, that's a, that's a hard life.
But also they're, they're kind of like the canaries in the coal mine
for what's kind of coming for us all, which is again, this, this very real
like, here's the thing, deep fake, like if you could just like snap your
fingers, especially whatever it's like.
You don't have the, the eyeballs of, of these like mega celebrities and
instead it's just like neighbor trying to slander neighbor or student trying
to bully, you know, cyber bully or like whatever, or stage something or whatever.
It's like again that, that that ease of creation as going down to next to nothing.
To the point where any one of us could just, you know, prompt a thing
and, and end up with something in the ballpark and fast forward a year or two,
whenever it's just like no noticeable differences in in the fidelity.
Sacha: and and I think that works both ways right Because we're also
gonna see people who have done things wrong claiming that the evidence of
their misdeeds is fake as well You
Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sacha: only we're we're not far from people saying no I wasn't in the
Epstein files It was a deep fake So
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: like there's there's obviously there's a lot of danger that underpins
all of that And I don't know what the right answer is I think we are seeing some
promising signs around digital literacy uh coming out of Finland Finland is a
always a great place to start I dunno what it is about the fins but they they
seem to have it under control Um but they they're having real success in their um
schooling programs with teaching kids from the youngest age to start to understand
um what they're being fed and why And and
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: and I think the the rest of the world just needs to catch up in terms
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: of
Brad Frost: yeah.
Sacha: that kind of teaching kids defense against the dark arts And and
unfortunately the Western response at the moment seems to be well why don't
we just ban kids from using the internet
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: is a terrible idea
Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sacha: you know it's gonna take a little bit to to get past that
panic that's going on at the
Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.
Sacha: Um and for people to realize that age gating the internet only affects It
Brad Frost: Uh,
Sacha: affect kids Um and for a few large scale data hacks to reveal
everybody's uh personal information signed up for porn sites and then
maybe the pendulum will swing back the
Brad Frost: yeah.
Sacha: we'll see
Brad Frost: yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I think it's like, that's like kind of like a through line of our
conversation so far as like the, the answer isn't necessarily just like, things
are bad, we need to hit the off switch, and it's like that's one impossible
Sacha: Yeah
Brad Frost: a lot of respects.
It's like, there, there's obviously you have like personal agency just as in like,
Carry a lot of this stuff over to things like the decision to, to be vegan or not.
Uh, for instance, it's like plenty of amazing reasons to be vegan, but to just
be like, everyone just needs to be vegan.
And then like, we'll, we'll get out of this.
It's like, dude, like that's a great idea.
And it's like, and best of luck to you trying to, to convince the, the world,
but like, as at a personal level, sure.
If you wanna like throw your phone into the ocean and go back to
the earth, good on you and you'll probably be healthier probably.
But at the same time, that's not feasible at a societal sort of scale.
It's like, like the, the,
Sacha: scale And also I think it it gives up on the amazing things that
Brad Frost: yes.
Yeah.
Sacha: being online So you know I'm not I find zealots the only touch
grass mantra annoying cause I'm like
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: Your screen time is 30 minutes a day when you allow yourself Good
on you but I still think you're missing out do I have to work harder
to consume the internet in a healthy and ethical and and fabulous way Sure
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: I see lots of things we could improve to make that easier for people
Absolutely But I'm not giving up on it I I
Brad Frost: Uh,
Sacha: experience so much joy and connection and um curiosity and I learn
so much every day Um that that I think uh turning your back on it is not the answer
Brad Frost: I, I couldn't agree more.
And I love how you said it earlier.
It's like those, those, those early years in building block years of, of
the web as people were first getting online, figuring out what it's all for.
the, the literal like principles that the worldwide web was founded on and
the fact that it was founded through, you know, CERN and not through like a, a
commercial entity, although there's plenty of stuff like around that, whatever.
But it's like this stuff is built at a bedrock level.
The web is on like some of the, the loftiest and most hopeful and optimistic
and beautiful, I think i I ideals and values that, humanity can aspire to
Sacha: And I
Brad Frost: and.
Sacha: one of the biggest challenges with behavior change in this way is you we
were both in Berlin at the end of last year and and one of the things I did at
that conference was interview my good friend Lucy Blackstone who runs um the
Gen Z media uh empire Shit you should care about one of the things that that was
new to me in that conversation she and I obviously talk about being online all the
time her pointing out that for those of us who remember the early web can see a
path forward something different because we remember what it was like But for her
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: who have grown up entirely on platforms that doesn't form part
of their foundation they've only
Brad Frost: Yep.
Sacha: platform life her skepticism That she could ever convince you
know her generation to want to try something different because
they don't know it And I I
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: that to me is a really interesting challenge Like remain optimistic
about the possibility of the web because I remember a different web and
Brad Frost: Yes.
Sacha: say remember rather than long for because it had its own set
of flaws You know it was small and homogenous and hard to get around and
you know like it's I'm not utopian
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: early web at
Brad Frost: Yep,
Sacha: but I am utopian about its possibility right And
Brad Frost: Yes,
Sacha: think um the more interesting challenges what does it look like to
show that possibility to a generation who ha who doesn't remember it
Brad Frost: yes.
Sacha: um who hasn't experienced it
Brad Frost: yep.
Sacha: um and kind of get them excited about the possibilities again
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Uh, that's, it's so amazing and, and those, those kind of generational divides
are, are really truly fascinating.
And that's going to become, I think, more pronounced, which really does put
a lot of responsibility, but also again, like, kind of provides that opportunity.
It's like, oh yeah.
The, the needs of production are coming down.
We've been on this ride for a long time.
We've seen the, the, the good aspects, the good qualities, the good
affordances of a lot of these things.
a lot of times misused and gone wayward or built using the wrong things and stuff.
And it's like, there is kind of like that Yeah.
Taking that and it's not nostalgia.
It's like, it's the real, like, like we, we got, we got like a front row
seat to sort of see what that like connection can, like, look like.
Before we all kind of, put everybody in the room and it
all just went, went bonkers.
I think you're, you're hinting at it with your, your work that you're doing
now, but also just like kind of what needs to happen to show these, these
younger generations that it is possible and it, it, like it needs to exist.
People see, you know, that, that seeing and that experiential part
of it I think is like really, really necessary to show people
Sacha: I think to learn better lessons from the history of the internet I
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: I'm writing a nonfiction book at the moment and it's a history of the
internet through the lens of um online fan communities And that book is about um
the women and queer people who To my mind are the power users of the internet over
its history who built these fan spaces who um came up with some of the earliest
forms of uh self-governance of tagging of content moderation of all of these sort of
things that um they created out of whole cloth uh to make these spaces healthy
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: and and workable for large groups of people And um and that that's an
untold history because we like to tell the stories of Silicon Valley bros who Chased
scale and made millions And it's like can't learn the right lessons from those
histories Um and so I think I think also going back and sort of digging into the
the stories of you know what happened in the early muds and moves around governance
and conflict and how people work those things through what happened in um early
Usenet groups around how you signaled content in a subject line when something
was essentially a list serve Um going back to the first fan archives and how people
thought about preservation and tagging and taxonomies and um and all of those
things are like crucial underpinnings of what good healthy online spaces
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: like Um and instead we have pursued this sort of revisionist
history of the internet which is Iconoclast who are a trip to Mars
Brad Frost: I love it.
I love it.
Yeah.
It's like, you're kind of exposing, it's like here's all the, the sort of
unsung heroes that have really kind of put a lot of the foundational pieces
for like a, a durable caring human web.
Like a way, a way to sort of like foster and, and build community and
sustain it versus the, the, yeah, I'm going to win, I'm going to compete,
I'm going to, I'm going to go to Mars.
you've been pointed in that direction for a while.
Like when you felt like, you're like, uh, this needs to be in a book format.
Sacha: Great question Um so my my online journey has always been in
transformative fan spaces And uh for your listeners who aren't necessarily
familiar with that um that's fans who are engaged with um acts of creation
around the things that they love So fan
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: art people who um aren't just consuming content but creating off the
back of it and transforming it in some way that was where I started on the
internet like when I first came online which was early by um this standards of
this country uh 93 94 the first thing I wanted to do was find other people who
were interested in the same things that I was And so you know the the first spaces
where I set up home were fan communities And at that stage I was obsessed with the
XFiles So I was in Alt tv XFiles and then I discovered that there was alt TV X Files
where people were you know writing their own case files and stories And and that's
where I fell in love with that whole side of the internet And I've been there ever
since And I you know I've gone through all of the major technological migrations
that fans have undergone So you know from those Usenet groups to Yahoo Mailing
lists Yahoo Groups then into live journal um then into Tumblr then into social
the social media era um and so on and so forth And That's always been my internet
journey and one of the things that I um have found frustrating but instructive
over the years is that it's pretty recent phenomenon for people to do fandom on
Maine right Like we've only I guess one of the upsides of everybody existing on
the same five platforms is that people have started to talk about their fanish
and obsessions and the things that they're into much more publicly and in a
more mainstream way But for a long time it was incredibly taboo Like you didn't
you didn't talk about the things you're obsessed with And I don't just mean you
know TV shows but movies or or musicians or whatever it was that was something
that you did in private uh usually under a pseudonym and it was you know it was just
not something that you associated with your real government name and face And
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: that's a that's a new phenomenon And I was a lawyer so there was no
way that I was gonna talk about these sorts of things because it was deeply
unprofessional and uncool and you know like I I couldn't uh and when I stopped
being a lawyer Which is like 10 years ago now I went to set up a and run a family
office for a New Zealand investor but my job was he didn't mind what else I
was doing with my life And so I started to write and speak at conferences about
this intersection fandom and technology And and the reason I was doing that was
because I felt like the very first talk I ever gave at a a tech conference um
went sort of weirdly viral and it was called how the tech sector could move in
one direction And it was about at that stage this was back in 20 15 20 16 we in
tech we were obsessed with the pipeline problem Like where are all the young
women in stem Um you know the reason these companies are full of Betty White
dudes no offense is because you know we can't encourage young women to to study
STEM subjects or whatever we now know that that was not The problem but at the
time that was sort of diagnosed as being the problem And I gave this talk about
how part of the reason that we couldn't find the young women in STEM was because
we taught them that what they were doing online was embarrassing And in actual fact
you know hundreds of thousands of young women were glued to their computers 24
7 and they were teaching themselves to be community managers and video editors
and they were making GIF sets and they were designing websites and they were
doing all of the things that had they been young men doing it in pursuit of I
don't know knocking out their first app would've got them hired at Google But
because they were doing it in service of uh boy band that we'd taught them was
something that they shouldn't confess to in their day-to-day lives Then you know
off the back of that I've sort of been writing and speaking about this
intersection for a long time now because I feel like fan communities are often the
places where I can see Either the roadmap ahead for where we should be going that
we've overlooked or forgotten or where I can see some of the things that are
breaking So you know the clash between curatorial or gatekeeping fans around
things like the Marvel cinematic universe versus transformative fans You know fans
that don't wanna see new fans into F1 or or ice hockey because they don't consider
them to be true fans if they're there because they liked a TV show Uh all of
that sort of clash I think is teaches us something really instructive about online
life And and so yeah after talking about it and writing about it for so long I
was like this is a book I don't know if it will get to be a book My agents are
are still in the process of trying to find a publisher for it but um hopefully
Brad Frost: that's amazing, but like, holy crap, what a journey and like
it's like a deeply personal one, but also just like, it, that feels like,
like a real through line where it's like you'd like deeply understand the,
this culture that that sort of anchors you as the, the landscape itself
kind of keeps morphing and changing.
You're able to sort of like see.
riding this, this, this kind of through line and you're able
to sort of like deduce Yeah.
Like, like you said, like what's working, what's falling apart?
Like how, I'm sure how like the affordances of the platforms
work or not, or, yeah.
Sacha: And community is at the heart of that And I think it doesn't matter how
you experience it Like I for me it's been fandom but but um as humans we
crave community Like that's just that's human nature We're built that way And
and I think that what fandom has helped me to see as we've moved through the
areas of the internet is the way that those tools and platforms and companies
have served and have failed community at its at its broadest level right And
so it's a it's a pretty base human need I think we you know it's been 20 plus
years since Putnam wrote bowling alone but that sort of struggled to work out
what we lost when we lost small scale human scale you know neighborhoods where
everybody knew each other's needs and and knew how to support one another And
I I you know I think we're seeing the rise of that again with mutual aid Um I
think at this moment in the United States particularly some of the the stories
coming out of Minnesota of communities coming together to um just really stand
up for and support one another in just the most straightforward ways you know
Brad Frost: Yep.
Sacha: and paying rent and and it's awful that it has to come out of
you know such a horrifying set of circumstances But it's like we are
wired that way We're wired that
Brad Frost: Yes.
Sacha: And and so as I think about online structure and I think about
platforms and tools and so on I'm always community's always in the the back of
my head as I think about those things
Brad Frost: it's beautiful and I think that you're, you're dead on in saying it's
like, it, it shouldn't take human made or natural disasters for people to, to
sort of like come to get to that point.
And, and also it's like, what does it look like to design those more kind of
like hopeful forward leaning and more kind of creative pursuits that, ripple
effect, that creative ripple effect that.
The web does such a good job at allowing for these flowers
to bLume from other things.
And through the lens of community where it's like, would people individually
be sort of s scrolling, you know, their fan fiction about X-Files,
like just for their own gratitude?
Like I think what we might be innately, fundamentally wired to create, but I
think it's, it's probably through the combination of creativity and community.
It's that, that feedback loop.
Can you, can you like, talk about that?
Sacha: Yeah and that sort of collaboration and and riffing and and so on Like I used
to love that phase in in the early tiktoks where someone would post themselves
playing a piece of music and then someone would stitch it accompanying them and
so on and so on and you'd get this kind of stacked experience and the video of
you know seven or eight different people making that happen But to your point about
the the validation I guess um I I think you're absolutely right in transformative
fan communities it's not Like the the reason you're in that community is to
both consume the things that other people are making because you're getting more of
what you love And also to share what it is that you are making and hope that people
like it And and you know the the system of kudos that a O three the main fan archive
uses you know people are always like there's nothing lovelier than when I get
up every day receiving a new email from a O three that just lists like all the
the stories of mine that people have left kudos on or the comments that they've left
And and that's a beautiful a beautiful experience And I think unfortunately like
everything breaks at scale because it's a dopamine hit and when people realize
that they can achieve that dopamine hit of getting likes and followers through um
darker patterns that's how we wind up with with some of these uglier um behaviors And
you know back to that sort of conspiracy point I think that's what keeps people in
some of these more These darker community spaces is that they find community and
they find validation and they find that dopamine hit um because they share their
new theory that that I don't know Melania is a wax double or whatever and they
circle a few pictures with red ms paint
Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah,
Sacha: and and people like it and they share it you know
Brad Frost: yeah, yeah,
Sacha: unfortunately the the same motivators work in both directions yeah
I agree with you I think that ability to bring the thing that you've made to
a community that will appreciate it um is so powerful And I think one of the
dangers of uh everyone doing fandom on Maine is that we've lost those dedicated
spaces where people felt safe to share these things and That that brings with
it some real challenges So one of the things that I sort of push against is
in fandom we have this concept of the fourth wall which is like don't show
the stories that you've written or the art you've created to the actors or
the show runners or whatever because it's not for them Like transformative
fandom happens after they've made their
Brad Frost: Mm.
Sacha: And it's for a community that understands um what it's about and and
its tropes and its um conventions and and whatever But of course the problem is now
fandoms destroyed that fourth wall like everything's happening on TikTok Um HBO
is hiring fan editors to make trailers and actors are constantly being asked
about the fan fiction that's written about them and so on And we can kind of
rail against that as much as we like but I think we've probably lost that battle
Brad Frost: but maybe it's like, there, there's room for,
it's like all of the above.
I know that there's, it's in subway shape or form, it's like, yeah.
It's, it gets fuzzy to the point where you, you will like dilute
the, the, the purity of like the thing or the, or whatever.
But at the same time, like there, there, there's something to pluralism as like
a concept to kind of like lean into a little bit, which is just like, oh, okay.
Like.
We don't need to like necessarily like, agree on these things, that
there's like a lot of room under some, some general umbrellas, I don't
know, uh, maybe that's just I'm not a part of, of the fandom communities,
Sacha: I think I think that's right I think it's just whenever you take
something out of its context and put it up for public scrutiny that
Brad Frost: right?
Sacha: be and I think the problem with fandom is often it's held up as an object
of ridicule or it's held up as a kind of
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: crazy people are doing you know
Brad Frost: yeah, yeah.
Sure,
Sacha: I I think that's kind of the the fear and that's why fandom spaces were
always retreats or or places where you
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Yeah.
Sacha: and I think those spaces remain important and it's one of the things that
I hate about the social media bands for teens is the internet has always been
a place for Um young people to explore questions of identity of you know whether
that's sexual orientation or gender or even just the things that they like and
are into And um and it's where they can find their communities which may not exist
geographically locally in their school system Uh and the internet's always played
a really important role in that And I think one of the huge dangers of saying
well we just shouldn't let teens on social media is we're taking away that safe space
for exploration and connection and where
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: good information and where they can find people who you know are are into the
same things or asking the same questions and um that that's a real danger I think
Brad Frost: Yeah, and it's, again, it's that, that knee jerk, like,
just, just turn it off and, and maybe all this will like go away.
And of course it won't.
It's like, and kids are freaking resourceful and like, everyone in my
life, it's like, it's like, oh yeah, everyone will like, find, find the ways.
But, You think about the TikTok dances or you think about just the, the sheer effort
and creative in intellectual and creative and technical skill that goes into sort of
like putting things like videos together.
Like I, I've been slinging a lot of videos and audio, so it is like, oh my God.
Like these are like massive skills.
Back to what you're talking about with like the, the gender divide.
It's like, yeah, there's like this, this, this literacy, this fluency
in these very technical and valuable mediums, and we're like using all of
these things together to explore who we are, but also how we fit into the world.
Sacha: yeah and I think that's one
Brad Frost: Yeah,
Sacha: of everyone being in the same place is that these young women are
finally being recognized for what they're doing You know like they should be
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Sacha: HBO They're incredibly talented
Brad Frost: Yeah.
Yeah.
Sacha: you know there's there's pluses and minuses
Brad Frost: Amazing.
Well, I, I, I mean, I think, I think that this is, this is great.
I think that, like we've covered, it's like there's, the spirit of
the web is still here, held in the hearts of the people who have
been online for, for a long time.
And there's a, there's a real challenge, but also a real opportunity
to kind of like reclaim some of that real authentic, you know,
community driven, like human led.
Like deliberate, intentional, good, creative spaces and to carve that
out maybe at scale, but probably not.
And, and just, just looking for those opportunities to sort of like, not
necessarily like, yeah, like hit, hit the off switch, but rather like, how
do we educate, improve and, and kind of show a better way like that, that,
that really, to me at least, like, kind of like that, that's my own personal
instincts have kind of gone there.
It's just like, it's one thing to just kind of, anybody could
throw out some commentary.
Like, yeah, this all sucks and there's a lot of validity to that commentary,
but at the same time it's like, yeah, but like, what are we gonna do about it?
It sounds like you're doing some really cool stuff, uh, with Lume
and, and I'm excited to see.
Where it goes.
'cause I, I, I, I love how you're describing it and like, kind
of like reclaiming that, more holistic, more connected, more
kind of just like human connection with the, the art and the artists.
I, I think that that's like a really cool place to operate in.
So I'm excited to see where you go with it.
Sacha: Yeah More q less feed
Brad Frost: More q less feed.
I freaking love it.
last question.
The only other sort of structured question in, in the show is, uh, what music do
you want more people to know about?
Uh, you mentioned the artists you went and saw last night.
Remind me her name again.
Julia Deans.
Yeah.
Sacha: yeah what That's such a great question What music Um I think I would
really like to recommend a New Zealand album it's called WTA Anthem I'll send you
the link so that you can put it in your show notes But it was an album that was
recorded here a couple of years ago and it's a whole lot of New Zealand artists
all recording in Al Maori which is um our indigenous language And a lot of them
had to learn uh the songs They weren't they're not native speakers Um and it's
just a really really beautiful album and a beautiful expression of the language
Um so yeah that'll be my recommendation
Brad Frost: that's amazing.
That's amazing.
Yeah, I, I'm very curious, just your description of, it's
very, very intriguing, so I'm gonna have to give it a listen.
So, yeah, definitely, uh, link that up here and we'll make sure to, to get it
out there and putting, putting a playlist together of, of all of the stuff too.
So, the real last question is like, where could people, go to find you, support you?
Where, where do you wanna point people, direct people,
uh, to where are you online?
Sacha: Just come to my my website Sacha judd.com and you can sign up
for my newsletter there which is called What We Love Matters It's free
and every week you'll get a little essay from me about pop culture Harry
Styles the internet space and it always finishes with a photo from my
giant Lego city which I hope brings a little bit of joy to people's lives
Brad Frost: Beautiful.
Beautiful.
Uh, amazing.
Well, thank you Sacha so much for, for being on the show.
And, uh, hopefully, uh, I'll, I'll meet up with you and we'll get
some, uh, Uber Eats, uh, Thai food, uh, whenever I come visit you.
Sacha: Thank
Brad Frost: All right.
Thanks very much.