1 00:00:11,922 --> 00:00:13,461 Brad Frost: Sacha Hello. 2 00:00:15,498 --> 00:00:20,208 we're just gonna dive right in and I'm really excited to hear what has 3 00:00:20,208 --> 00:00:22,278 you waking up excited right now. 4 00:00:22,370 --> 00:00:26,055 Sacha: Yeah what a great prompt I think what what's got me most excited at the 5 00:00:26,055 --> 00:00:31,321 moment is a startup that I'm working on uh which is called Lume Music This 6 00:00:31,321 --> 00:00:37,168 isn't about to be an ad for that but the thesis behind it is finding a new way 7 00:00:37,168 --> 00:00:43,708 to um consume music in this era where everything is subscription focused and 8 00:00:43,948 --> 00:00:49,416 where the system is broken for everyone but importantly for artists who can't 9 00:00:49,416 --> 00:00:54,683 make a living wage so we've spent a couple of years now thinking about how we 10 00:00:54,683 --> 00:00:59,783 might shift that And um we are launching with a new digital album format that 11 00:00:59,783 --> 00:01:05,823 comes Bundled with extra content that dedicated music lovers and fans want to 12 00:01:05,823 --> 00:01:11,253 see from their faves So behind the scenes uh video photography handwritten lyrics 13 00:01:11,253 --> 00:01:15,165 the story of an album and packaging that all together in a really beautiful app 14 00:01:15,165 --> 00:01:20,003 experience And I think what's making me excited about it is like all startups 15 00:01:20,003 --> 00:01:24,413 you get to spend time with people who are really optimistic and creative about 16 00:01:24,443 --> 00:01:30,133 the world I think to be um A startup founder you have to have an enormous 17 00:01:30,133 --> 00:01:35,233 amount of hope and optimism and positivity because otherwise you wouldn't be doing 18 00:01:35,233 --> 00:01:40,543 it Uh and that's something that I've always loved about the startup space 19 00:01:40,543 --> 00:01:46,693 which I've been sort of adjacent to or working in for um nearly 15 years now 20 00:01:46,753 --> 00:01:51,988 And it's still what I love most about it and particularly this one to be doing 21 00:01:51,988 --> 00:01:58,408 it um surrounded by creative people who just wanna do the thing that they love 22 00:01:58,556 --> 00:02:03,746 and are sort of constantly facing an uphill battle to make that possible to 23 00:02:03,746 --> 00:02:08,426 be building something that we hope will help them with that is really exciting So 24 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,180 Brad Frost: That's, oh my God. 25 00:02:10,180 --> 00:02:12,550 I mean, like, that's, there's a lot there. 26 00:02:12,550 --> 00:02:16,330 So one, it sounds like you're, you're reviving the physicality 27 00:02:16,690 --> 00:02:21,656 of an album of like, like an LP or even, whatever, CDs, doesn't matter. 28 00:02:21,656 --> 00:02:25,976 Cassettes, like, there's the, the, the tactile multi format 29 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:30,638 nature of music is not just like a thing that we, we listen to. 30 00:02:30,638 --> 00:02:34,718 That's like one aspect of it, but there's like the whole like getting to know 31 00:02:34,718 --> 00:02:37,298 them and understanding and interpreting. 32 00:02:37,676 --> 00:02:42,116 Sacha: And I think for whatever reason the album is still the pinnacle of an 33 00:02:42,116 --> 00:02:47,996 artist's musical expression And I think artists spend a long time thinking 34 00:02:47,996 --> 00:02:52,136 about the world of an album like the songs that are gonna make the album 35 00:02:52,136 --> 00:02:57,326 and the songs that aren't the order that they go in the story that it tells 36 00:02:57,326 --> 00:03:02,253 the um artwork and the photography and the brand Not not in the commercial 37 00:03:02,438 --> 00:03:02,728 Brad Frost: Yeah, 38 00:03:02,823 --> 00:03:03,243 Sacha: the look and 39 00:03:03,278 --> 00:03:04,873 Brad Frost: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 40 00:03:05,013 --> 00:03:08,073 Sacha: and now that just gets chopped up and thrown 41 00:03:08,082 --> 00:03:08,412 Brad Frost: Yeah. 42 00:03:09,063 --> 00:03:14,883 Sacha: and um you know your only sense of artist is the little square you know 43 00:03:14,922 --> 00:03:15,282 Brad Frost: Yeah. 44 00:03:15,453 --> 00:03:20,368 Sacha: that they get and so we never really get to experience it the way 45 00:03:20,953 --> 00:03:26,148 That the artist made it you know so the the songs go on Spotify or or Apple or 46 00:03:26,148 --> 00:03:31,608 wherever and then the everything else sort of winds up fragmented You might see a bit 47 00:03:31,608 --> 00:03:34,988 of it on social or you might see a bit of it on YouTube or you might you know you 48 00:03:34,988 --> 00:03:39,578 might get some of it in in a fan mailing list or whatever but we really wanna 49 00:03:39,693 --> 00:03:40,053 Brad Frost: And it, 50 00:03:40,148 --> 00:03:40,808 Sacha: together 51 00:03:40,863 --> 00:03:44,602 Brad Frost: and it's, that's all labor and it's additional labor for 52 00:03:44,602 --> 00:03:48,862 artists that are, that are just like already buried and like you said, 53 00:03:48,862 --> 00:03:50,782 like having this, this uphill battle. 54 00:03:50,782 --> 00:03:52,990 And it's just like, left, right and center. 55 00:03:53,190 --> 00:04:00,453 Any attempt to carve out a viable living and, you know, actually do things 56 00:04:00,453 --> 00:04:05,793 in an authentic and sustainable way, just like the rug just continually 57 00:04:05,793 --> 00:04:08,208 gets pulled out from under them. 58 00:04:08,259 --> 00:04:08,439 Sacha: not 59 00:04:08,493 --> 00:04:09,063 Brad Frost: And it's, 60 00:04:09,069 --> 00:04:12,969 Sacha: anyone Now you know it's not working for artists obviously it hasn't 61 00:04:12,969 --> 00:04:16,359 been for a long time but it's also now not working for labels it's not working for 62 00:04:16,683 --> 00:04:17,013 Brad Frost: Yeah. 63 00:04:17,019 --> 00:04:21,900 Sacha: know it's discovery is becoming impossible Um you know the the flood of 64 00:04:21,900 --> 00:04:26,880 AI generated music is making it impossible Like just everything about it is kind 65 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,903 of wrong But I think the other thing is You know there's a real push online to 66 00:04:30,903 --> 00:04:35,853 talk about that return to analog And uh you know I wrote a newsletter recently 67 00:04:35,853 --> 00:04:40,523 about distinction that I am trying to articulate because I think a real tendency 68 00:04:40,523 --> 00:04:43,883 to sort of push back and go oh I'm just gonna get offline I'm gonna stop using 69 00:04:43,883 --> 00:04:48,773 my phone I'm gonna return to touching grass and and the physical world and 70 00:04:48,833 --> 00:04:53,723 listen to vinyl and whatever And and I really appreciate that instinct but I 71 00:04:53,723 --> 00:04:58,188 don't think that it's It's necessarily the right answer cause I I think that 72 00:04:58,188 --> 00:05:03,228 the problem is not that something is digital it's that we are consuming 73 00:05:03,618 --> 00:05:08,208 everything online in this constant algorithmic feed of you know this fire 74 00:05:08,353 --> 00:05:08,773 Brad Frost: Yes, 75 00:05:09,078 --> 00:05:12,828 Sacha: of content And so in that piece I was trying to articulate a different 76 00:05:12,828 --> 00:05:17,298 distinction which for me is the difference between feed and q and I think things 77 00:05:17,298 --> 00:05:22,278 that you put in your queue which might be a long form article that you bookmark 78 00:05:22,278 --> 00:05:26,178 or it might be an audio book that you've been meaning to listen to or a 79 00:05:26,183 --> 00:05:26,473 Brad Frost: Yeah. 80 00:05:26,658 --> 00:05:33,018 Sacha: podcast or whatever Those can be slow intentional experiences Um 81 00:05:33,218 --> 00:05:38,588 and so for me the distinction isn't between digital and analog It's between 82 00:05:38,588 --> 00:05:42,698 feed and queue It's like the things that are being thrown at me versus the 83 00:05:42,698 --> 00:05:46,208 things that I have chosen to experience 84 00:05:46,944 --> 00:05:47,144 Brad Frost: that. 85 00:05:47,447 --> 00:05:52,221 that distinction that, that kind of feed versus q, the difference, 86 00:05:52,221 --> 00:05:56,432 the biggest difference between that is like an intentionality I am. 87 00:05:57,227 --> 00:06:03,647 In control of my cue, and I am wanting and willing and hoping to, to watch 88 00:06:03,647 --> 00:06:05,777 this video or to listen to this song. 89 00:06:05,777 --> 00:06:10,997 And I am like, like intentionally making decisions versus like you said, 90 00:06:10,997 --> 00:06:15,757 the fire hose to the face of just like, we're just getting blasted by 91 00:06:16,147 --> 00:06:24,077 this potpourri of just everything with literally no, no intention, no nothing. 92 00:06:24,347 --> 00:06:26,807 It's just literally random crap. 93 00:06:26,837 --> 00:06:27,137 Yeah. 94 00:06:27,337 --> 00:06:31,717 Sacha: A real content whiplash right Because you're seeing a war crime 95 00:06:31,717 --> 00:06:34,357 followed by a reality TV final followed 96 00:06:34,397 --> 00:06:34,877 Brad Frost: Yes, 97 00:06:35,137 --> 00:06:39,817 Sacha: show followed by a protest And it's like our brains can't 98 00:06:40,030 --> 00:06:41,710 weren't built We weren't built for that 99 00:06:42,085 --> 00:06:42,445 Brad Frost: Yeah. 100 00:06:42,625 --> 00:06:43,825 ha ha ha ha. 101 00:06:43,825 --> 00:06:44,575 Holy shit. 102 00:06:44,675 --> 00:06:50,368 I've talked about it a a bit before and it's just like when you zoom out 103 00:06:50,568 --> 00:06:58,008 at this phenomenon that is now what is literally like how hours upon hours 104 00:06:58,008 --> 00:07:01,213 of most human beings are spending. 105 00:07:01,943 --> 00:07:05,213 Part of their day, which is, that's depressing in its own right. 106 00:07:05,674 --> 00:07:11,434 what in that world is that doing to us, like psychologically like 107 00:07:11,434 --> 00:07:13,804 that is, that is not healthy. 108 00:07:13,834 --> 00:07:19,294 And to think that it, it had in any way that was intentionally 109 00:07:19,294 --> 00:07:22,894 designed, which they were like, that's the, these, these products 110 00:07:22,894 --> 00:07:24,784 made their way out into the world. 111 00:07:24,784 --> 00:07:28,654 Like there's, there's professional designers who I've spent 112 00:07:28,654 --> 00:07:30,755 a long time creating this. 113 00:07:30,755 --> 00:07:34,555 It's, it's truly baffling to me that if you were to just like kind of. 114 00:07:34,755 --> 00:07:37,805 Take a step back, and I do wanna talk to you about this a little bit. 115 00:07:37,835 --> 00:07:44,323 It's like your, your history of kind of the world of online spaces and 116 00:07:44,323 --> 00:07:47,383 how it's kind of progressed and how we've gotten to this moment, and 117 00:07:47,383 --> 00:07:48,643 then what we ought to do about it. 118 00:07:48,643 --> 00:07:52,393 Sacha: our corporate landlords have a lot to answer for in that sense 119 00:07:52,393 --> 00:07:57,436 You know this has come about because platforms focused on engagement and 120 00:07:57,460 --> 00:07:57,680 Brad Frost: Yep. 121 00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:01,606 Sacha: is engagement and they wanna keep us still and scrolling And 122 00:08:02,115 --> 00:08:04,995 know I think I think a lot of that is about how these companies were 123 00:08:04,995 --> 00:08:06,705 established and funded So there's 124 00:08:06,749 --> 00:08:07,039 Brad Frost: Yeah, 125 00:08:07,095 --> 00:08:09,945 Sacha: sort of capitalist underpinning to that I think the venture capital 126 00:08:09,945 --> 00:08:13,425 funding model rewards growth at all costs 127 00:08:13,859 --> 00:08:14,149 Brad Frost: yeah, 128 00:08:14,685 --> 00:08:21,600 Sacha: um that the the way that you achieve Hypersonic growth is is through 129 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,400 using these kind of dark patterns So you know we can see how we got here 130 00:08:26,514 --> 00:08:26,874 Brad Frost: yeah. 131 00:08:27,630 --> 00:08:31,890 Sacha: but I think it's it's not working for anyone I don't think you 132 00:08:31,890 --> 00:08:36,510 meet anyone who's like yeah I love to discover that I lost an hour scrolling on 133 00:08:36,684 --> 00:08:37,430 Brad Frost: Yeah. 134 00:08:37,430 --> 00:08:41,120 but, but you, you, you touched on something though, like, like right out 135 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,360 of the gate in talking about sort of like startups and I, I thought that 136 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,690 that was like a really fascinating thing is just like talking about like 137 00:08:47,690 --> 00:08:51,170 positivity and hope and an optimism. 138 00:08:51,860 --> 00:08:55,430 But I think that there's, there's also something that you're really sort of 139 00:08:55,630 --> 00:08:59,800 touching on and I think I, I really like admire in you in that like there's a 140 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:05,970 real responsibility and intentionality and like good values and good like kind 141 00:09:05,970 --> 00:09:11,390 of community driven values that isn't just about like hope and optimism. 142 00:09:11,390 --> 00:09:16,031 It's like cause what we've seen play out with, with the social media landscape 143 00:09:16,031 --> 00:09:19,871 and, and the internet landscape is like those people had plenty of hope and 144 00:09:19,871 --> 00:09:22,991 optimism for the hockey stick, right? 145 00:09:22,991 --> 00:09:25,811 Like for the hockey stick, for that, for that infinite growth, for 146 00:09:25,811 --> 00:09:27,371 that hypersonic growth or whatever. 147 00:09:27,371 --> 00:09:29,561 So it's like, what are you actually like. 148 00:09:29,761 --> 00:09:33,271 Trying to like direct your hope and optimism at, 149 00:09:33,498 --> 00:09:37,008 Sacha: yeah that's a useful distinction cause I think particularly at this moment 150 00:09:37,008 --> 00:09:44,148 when AI is making uh much more trivial I think that the the bros chasing the 151 00:09:44,148 --> 00:09:49,558 hockey stick everywhere now You know like as a as a sort of shorthand for people 152 00:09:49,558 --> 00:09:54,028 who it used it used to be a mantra in startup life that ideas were easy and 153 00:09:54,028 --> 00:09:58,438 execution was hard right Like that that it was very simple to come up with your 154 00:09:58,438 --> 00:10:01,978 brand new app idea but actually building something that was useful and that people 155 00:10:01,978 --> 00:10:06,058 wanted and whatever was the complicated bit And and I think we're seeing a little 156 00:10:06,058 --> 00:10:13,468 bit of an inversion now because of course um anyone can throw a prompt at code and 157 00:10:13,468 --> 00:10:18,668 lovable and whatever and have something up very quickly setting aside the Ethics 158 00:10:18,668 --> 00:10:22,448 and the environmental impact and the you know war profiteering and everything that 159 00:10:22,448 --> 00:10:28,828 goes with it But execution has become more straightforward And um I think that 160 00:10:28,828 --> 00:10:35,317 that means that what's going to should be the focus in the next phase is okay well 161 00:10:35,317 --> 00:10:40,887 anyone could build something So what's behind it Like what's who are the team 162 00:10:40,887 --> 00:10:45,567 and what do they care about And what is their domain expertise And do they deeply 163 00:10:45,567 --> 00:10:52,827 understand this idea and the people that they're building it for And um I think 164 00:10:52,827 --> 00:10:59,367 when startups can become a dime a dozen some slightly different um levers are 165 00:10:59,367 --> 00:11:04,378 gonna come into play yeah there's there's gonna be new kinds of disruption I think 166 00:11:04,596 --> 00:11:05,226 Brad Frost: yeah, yeah. 167 00:11:05,226 --> 00:11:10,214 Just a hard agree on all those fronts, and I think that it's like my hope and 168 00:11:10,214 --> 00:11:15,873 optimism is that exactly what you're describing, like when all of this just 169 00:11:15,873 --> 00:11:21,333 becomes just so, so noisy, so whatever that, that, you know, we're going to 170 00:11:21,333 --> 00:11:26,837 be flooded with everything we're all, I think, collectively at a human level 171 00:11:26,837 --> 00:11:31,087 looking for human real, authentic. 172 00:11:31,882 --> 00:11:34,852 Good things to, to, to latch onto. 173 00:11:34,852 --> 00:11:37,492 They are like really, like going to be like the, the, the life 174 00:11:37,492 --> 00:11:45,833 raft in an ocean of very, very, very noisy, competing like slop. 175 00:11:45,970 --> 00:11:49,540 Sacha: I've been writing a lot over the last year about what discovery looks 176 00:11:49,540 --> 00:11:54,910 like in a post search era because we know that that search is broken now You 177 00:11:54,910 --> 00:12:00,801 know like at its most simple level if you want to buy a new Kettle You can't 178 00:12:00,801 --> 00:12:06,411 um just search best kettles on Google because the first like 30 pages will 179 00:12:06,411 --> 00:12:13,931 be AI slop and so we have to return to a human element And I've been doing 180 00:12:13,980 --> 00:12:14,240 Brad Frost: Yeah. 181 00:12:14,441 --> 00:12:16,991 Sacha: of interviews on my newsletter called Curating the Curators where 182 00:12:16,991 --> 00:12:22,476 I've been talking to people who write curation based newsletters or or blogs 183 00:12:22,476 --> 00:12:27,162 or sites because there's something really interesting to me about the of 184 00:12:27,252 --> 00:12:31,902 of the newsletter Not so much in the people pumping out their hot takes 185 00:12:32,232 --> 00:12:37,932 but the people who we subscribe to or we follow because we trust that 186 00:12:37,932 --> 00:12:41,822 they're gonna bring together Curate an interesting series of links or articles or 187 00:12:42,237 --> 00:12:42,597 Brad Frost: Yeah. 188 00:12:42,602 --> 00:12:47,552 Sacha: thoughts on a topic And that to me is really reminiscent of the early web 189 00:12:47,762 --> 00:12:53,462 Um because those of us who are decrepit and ancient remember the web before 190 00:12:53,462 --> 00:13:00,062 search engines And in that era we relied on human curation You know Justin's hot 191 00:13:00,092 --> 00:13:07,022 links from the underground was how we found things And I think in this next 192 00:13:07,022 --> 00:13:13,252 phase where the sheer tidal wave of slop that we have to wade through some people 193 00:13:13,452 --> 00:13:16,392 are relying on LMS to tell em and without 194 00:13:16,557 --> 00:13:16,977 Brad Frost: Mm-hmm. 195 00:13:18,056 --> 00:13:22,805 Sacha: the limitations of that and other people myself included are like 196 00:13:22,865 --> 00:13:25,775 let's get back to a more human centered 197 00:13:25,950 --> 00:13:26,240 Brad Frost: Yeah. 198 00:13:26,675 --> 00:13:32,885 Sacha: where we relied on people to um to do that labor and to share 199 00:13:33,005 --> 00:13:35,345 their Their journeys and where 200 00:13:35,380 --> 00:13:35,670 Brad Frost: Yeah. 201 00:13:36,035 --> 00:13:39,593 Sacha: And and so yeah I've been spending a lot of time over the last year writing 202 00:13:39,593 --> 00:13:44,063 about some of this stuff You know like the dark forest theory of the internet the 203 00:13:44,063 --> 00:13:49,193 digital gardens like all of this kind of what does it look like when we have to go 204 00:13:49,193 --> 00:13:56,453 exploring again um because it's not easy to find things And how do we share those 205 00:13:56,453 --> 00:14:01,229 journeys with other people How do we share more of our work in progress sort of re 206 00:14:01,229 --> 00:14:06,219 fostering that sense that the internet is a kind of limitless place but it doesn't 207 00:14:06,219 --> 00:14:08,739 have to be a limitless place full of crap 208 00:14:08,939 --> 00:14:11,909 Brad Frost: This might seem like a very weird follow up question to all 209 00:14:11,909 --> 00:14:16,079 of this, but where are you based and what's your go-to Thai restaurant? 210 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:22,919 Sacha: Ah I'm based in Auckland in Ero New Zealand my go-to Thai restaurant is 211 00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:28,769 uh an Uber Eats place that delivers an incredible uh pineapple fried rice which 212 00:14:28,769 --> 00:14:34,229 is one of my comfort foods I dunno why I just love it I drink COVID I had to 213 00:14:34,229 --> 00:14:38,999 learn how to make authentic pineapple fried rice myself because I couldn't get 214 00:14:39,069 --> 00:14:39,534 Brad Frost: I, they weren't, 215 00:14:39,839 --> 00:14:41,899 Sacha: Um yeah well we 216 00:14:41,954 --> 00:14:42,704 Brad Frost: what's it called? 217 00:14:42,799 --> 00:14:43,249 Sacha: time we couldn't 218 00:14:43,471 --> 00:14:45,571 Brad Frost: Or do you just like, have it on like speed dial? 219 00:14:46,027 --> 00:14:47,647 Sacha: Ooh I've got it on speed dial 220 00:14:47,747 --> 00:14:48,377 Brad Frost: This is good. 221 00:14:48,377 --> 00:14:51,557 Well, we could, we could find out if they, uh, deliver to, 222 00:14:51,587 --> 00:14:53,237 uh, outside of New Zealand. 223 00:14:53,267 --> 00:14:54,497 Outside of Auckland. 224 00:14:54,699 --> 00:14:58,329 it's that, that question is like the, the thing that I've 225 00:14:58,329 --> 00:14:59,619 been kind of picking at just. 226 00:14:59,719 --> 00:15:03,709 not that one specifically, but, but that, the spirit of that, right. 227 00:15:03,709 --> 00:15:09,319 Of like the, I feel like Thai food and I think that like, as you know, 228 00:15:09,409 --> 00:15:11,659 and how do we find that today? 229 00:15:11,659 --> 00:15:15,949 Well, we bust out either the Uber Eats and we're like looking just my 230 00:15:15,949 --> 00:15:20,269 eyes, just go straight to the how many reviews and how many, like five star 231 00:15:20,359 --> 00:15:23,329 what things like, it's, it's total like blindness to everything else. 232 00:15:23,329 --> 00:15:25,369 It's like, oh good, this one seems popular and 233 00:15:25,434 --> 00:15:30,114 Sacha: is a terrible example right Because we know that it's it's not 234 00:15:30,114 --> 00:15:31,374 paying the restaurants properly 235 00:15:31,594 --> 00:15:31,884 Brad Frost: yeah, 236 00:15:32,034 --> 00:15:35,004 Sacha: the growth of Ghost Kitchens where you think that you are ordering 237 00:15:35,004 --> 00:15:36,264 from a place that you know and you're 238 00:15:36,524 --> 00:15:36,814 Brad Frost: yeah, 239 00:15:37,044 --> 00:15:38,274 Sacha: from some sort of 240 00:15:38,329 --> 00:15:38,809 Brad Frost: yeah. 241 00:15:39,414 --> 00:15:40,044 Sacha: you know so 242 00:15:40,489 --> 00:15:43,369 Brad Frost: But even like Google, even like Google Maps and like other 243 00:15:43,369 --> 00:15:46,759 things, you got like the sponsor results and stuff is like, and at the 244 00:15:46,759 --> 00:15:52,749 end of the day though, I, I, I think that like as our ability to trust. 245 00:15:53,109 --> 00:15:54,369 Those results. 246 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:58,599 Again, just even pre pre ai, like the sponsored results, it's 247 00:15:58,599 --> 00:16:00,519 like crowded everything out. 248 00:16:00,849 --> 00:16:03,189 It's like, how do we get to like you? 249 00:16:03,494 --> 00:16:06,824 Sacha: Reddit is going through a renaissance at the moment because Reddit 250 00:16:06,944 --> 00:16:11,954 has become one of the few human places 251 00:16:12,434 --> 00:16:12,654 Brad Frost: Yep, 252 00:16:12,914 --> 00:16:16,274 Sacha: to find recommendations and and answers you know 253 00:16:16,539 --> 00:16:16,749 Brad Frost: yep, 254 00:16:17,204 --> 00:16:21,584 Sacha: um a Reddit thread will will now be often my first stop if I'm trying to 255 00:16:21,584 --> 00:16:27,614 work out why something doesn't work or what the best thing is or a a review of 256 00:16:27,614 --> 00:16:32,984 a product because I know that for all of its flaws Reddit is still a place 257 00:16:32,984 --> 00:16:35,564 with human people and human moderation 258 00:16:35,589 --> 00:16:35,769 Brad Frost: yep. 259 00:16:36,554 --> 00:16:38,864 Sacha: um long may that continue 260 00:16:39,088 --> 00:16:39,658 Brad Frost: Hell yeah. 261 00:16:39,802 --> 00:16:43,822 I've shared that, or, or, or sort of experienced that as well, where 262 00:16:43,822 --> 00:16:47,332 it's like, yeah, we're going like, to like seek for like, again, just 263 00:16:47,332 --> 00:16:52,662 like realness, like, and, and what realness is, is increasingly going to 264 00:16:52,662 --> 00:16:55,182 be a difficult question to, to answer. 265 00:16:55,632 --> 00:17:00,162 And so that's where it's like, it gets pretty philosophical, pretty quick. 266 00:17:00,462 --> 00:17:06,192 Gets into like, it's like, okay, I, I know that I am here talking to you and 267 00:17:06,222 --> 00:17:08,472 I don't know much else that could exist. 268 00:17:08,472 --> 00:17:09,942 I know it's raining outside. 269 00:17:09,942 --> 00:17:14,232 It's like, like we're literally like looking for things that we could latch 270 00:17:14,322 --> 00:17:21,332 onto and I could like just, all you need to do is just fast forward two years and I 271 00:17:21,332 --> 00:17:26,672 am utterly and completely terrified about our ability to even just kind of like 272 00:17:26,972 --> 00:17:28,952 process, like what's, what's real or not. 273 00:17:28,952 --> 00:17:33,772 So I think that these, these instincts to kind of like go to, to where humans 274 00:17:33,772 --> 00:17:35,842 are and to go like, okay, like I know. 275 00:17:36,262 --> 00:17:40,582 That other humans are real and this online avatar, we are gonna 276 00:17:40,582 --> 00:17:42,652 need to figure that thing out too. 277 00:17:43,056 --> 00:17:44,826 we understand it to be a problem. 278 00:17:44,826 --> 00:17:45,606 There's now like. 279 00:17:46,071 --> 00:17:47,391 Plenty of like research. 280 00:17:47,391 --> 00:17:51,141 There's that like even kind of within the companies and stuff themselves is 281 00:17:51,141 --> 00:17:57,351 like starting, you know, some semblance of acknowledgement of, of the harm, but 282 00:17:57,351 --> 00:18:01,461 there doesn't really seem to be like a whole lot of like answers or counter 283 00:18:01,641 --> 00:18:06,551 weight thrown around to, to change course. 284 00:18:06,921 --> 00:18:10,736 Sacha: but they are are small scale or local answers and I don't I 285 00:18:10,736 --> 00:18:16,612 don't think that that's necessarily wrong I think we didn't know what 286 00:18:16,972 --> 00:18:19,312 Twitter was when it came out right 287 00:18:19,456 --> 00:18:19,816 Brad Frost: Hmm. 288 00:18:20,062 --> 00:18:25,402 Sacha: when Twitter first emerged um it was like the apt to post your sandwich 289 00:18:25,402 --> 00:18:32,302 at lunchtime right It wasn't an apt to destroy democracy Um and so I think 290 00:18:32,302 --> 00:18:36,112 things will continue to emerge Twitter for its first few years was extremely 291 00:18:36,112 --> 00:18:41,572 niche Um you had to be a giant nerd to be on it I remember giving a I was a 292 00:18:41,572 --> 00:18:45,142 partner in a law firm at the time giving a presentation to my partners about why 293 00:18:45,382 --> 00:18:48,832 our firm should be on Twitter you know and it's like they didn't understand what 294 00:18:48,832 --> 00:18:54,452 it was and and so I think I think it's really easy to look now at this handful 295 00:18:54,452 --> 00:18:58,652 of platforms that we're stuck with as inevitable that this is all there is And 296 00:18:58,772 --> 00:19:02,282 you know there's never gonna be anything else We're just stuck with short form 297 00:19:02,282 --> 00:19:08,942 video everything apps Um but I don't think that's true And I think some of the 298 00:19:09,002 --> 00:19:15,412 optimism that I still feel is when I see smaller um efforts in new directions And 299 00:19:15,412 --> 00:19:18,262 and you know one of the things that gives me hope at the moment is what's going 300 00:19:18,262 --> 00:19:24,922 on with App Proto and Blue Sky and Black Sky and North Sky and and the uh various 301 00:19:24,922 --> 00:19:30,262 apps that are built on that um protocol leaflet and Tangled and and whatever And 302 00:19:30,475 --> 00:19:35,005 I think there's a tendency to dismiss those efforts and go yeah but you know 303 00:19:35,275 --> 00:19:39,145 nobody's there except the nerds And it's like well nobody's there except the nerds 304 00:19:39,235 --> 00:19:45,145 always in the beginning Um but something sort of fundamental is different there 305 00:19:45,145 --> 00:19:50,745 when it comes to your ability to control what it is that you are Um you know your 306 00:19:50,745 --> 00:19:55,215 ability to customize your own feeds and your own experience your ability to build 307 00:19:55,215 --> 00:20:00,330 things on top of that protocol that are genuinely decentralized and not in a Uh 308 00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:06,200 ferociously hard to understand mastodon sort of way and I think those kinds of 309 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:14,090 sparks uh I think it's very easy to just be a downer about it and go oh yeah it's a 310 00:20:14,090 --> 00:20:18,551 little left wing echo chamber or it's you know it's never gonna be as big as Twitter 311 00:20:18,761 --> 00:20:20,321 I don't think we want anything as big 312 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:20,660 Brad Frost: Yeah, 313 00:20:20,771 --> 00:20:21,491 Sacha: Again 314 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:22,550 Brad Frost: that's right. 315 00:20:22,790 --> 00:20:23,300 That's right. 316 00:20:23,651 --> 00:20:30,447 Sacha: wrong with that and so I think the the bigger challenge is to reach 317 00:20:30,447 --> 00:20:35,367 people for whom the internet's been ruined because their experience is just 318 00:20:35,367 --> 00:20:37,257 terrible and they've just opted out 319 00:20:37,501 --> 00:20:37,721 Brad Frost: Yep. 320 00:20:38,517 --> 00:20:39,717 Sacha: and fair enough too 321 00:20:39,917 --> 00:20:40,207 Brad Frost: Yeah. 322 00:20:40,262 --> 00:20:44,552 Sacha: but to start to to start to sort of build those community neighborhoods 323 00:20:44,552 --> 00:20:50,072 again where you can start to share with people who share your interests 324 00:20:50,372 --> 00:20:55,232 or who are near you geographically or who care about the same community 325 00:20:55,232 --> 00:20:56,972 outreach or whatever those things are 326 00:20:57,117 --> 00:20:57,327 Brad Frost: Yeah. 327 00:20:57,362 --> 00:21:04,022 Sacha: um and build those healthy human scale spaces Again in the way that we 328 00:21:04,022 --> 00:21:09,962 used to have in weird had little Usenet groups or early live journal communities 329 00:21:10,022 --> 00:21:15,362 or whatever your experience of the early web used to be some guitar forum 330 00:21:15,362 --> 00:21:18,122 or or bodybuilder forum or whatever 331 00:21:18,222 --> 00:21:21,462 Brad Frost: the, what would happen if we put all of humanity in the 332 00:21:21,462 --> 00:21:25,332 same room to together and allowed everybody to just talk to everyone 333 00:21:25,362 --> 00:21:27,552 that that is proven out to be. 334 00:21:28,267 --> 00:21:32,527 But, and, and for very real, you know, kind of like evolutionary reasons, right? 335 00:21:32,557 --> 00:21:35,497 Uh, there's, you know, the idea of like Dunbar's number and like all 336 00:21:35,497 --> 00:21:39,641 this stuff where it's just like, yeah, we, our brains only have some, 337 00:21:39,881 --> 00:21:43,991 we have like an upper limit and sort of like how many like connections and 338 00:21:43,991 --> 00:21:46,271 relationships we could, we could handle. 339 00:21:46,301 --> 00:21:50,921 But also just the, our idea of, of in and out, you know, groups and 340 00:21:50,921 --> 00:21:52,661 tribes and, and the rest of it. 341 00:21:52,661 --> 00:21:56,860 It's like when we just short circuit all of that or put 'em all to the same 342 00:21:56,860 --> 00:22:01,493 room, it's not compatible with our, with just like our neural wiring after 343 00:22:01,493 --> 00:22:07,133 like, like many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many centuries of just 344 00:22:07,223 --> 00:22:09,833 evolving a certain way at a certain pace. 345 00:22:10,110 --> 00:22:14,070 the answer isn't necessarily the off switch, although absolutely there, 346 00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:18,570 there can and should be more of a, a return in, in a blend of the 347 00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:22,230 physical and visual world and, and that those aren't mutually exclusive, 348 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:25,080 but like digital stuff is good stuff. 349 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,790 Like there's a lot there. 350 00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:31,650 It just requires like the right type of design, the right kind of of 351 00:22:31,650 --> 00:22:35,760 foundations the right kind of values in place to, to, to make it so, 352 00:22:36,079 --> 00:22:41,569 Sacha: even with the right value system in place like I gave a talk in at Beyond 353 00:22:41,713 --> 00:22:41,933 Brad Frost: Mm. 354 00:22:41,959 --> 00:22:47,119 Sacha: couple years ago called Everything Breaks At Scale And and my thesis in that 355 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:53,829 was like best Will in the world like scale is just a terrible thing to happen to 356 00:22:53,829 --> 00:23:02,099 you because uh anything that happens fast and at that Those sizes you know is is 357 00:23:02,099 --> 00:23:07,469 gonna produce these results Like we just can't So you know you see a company like 358 00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:13,309 WeWork grow from sort of 10 people in a office to tens of thousands of employees 359 00:23:13,309 --> 00:23:17,719 at a festival style retreat and you go of course that fell apart How can you 360 00:23:18,248 --> 00:23:18,538 Brad Frost: Yeah. 361 00:23:18,649 --> 00:23:21,619 Sacha: can you build a company that quickly that large with good 362 00:23:21,619 --> 00:23:23,749 HR and good leveling and good 363 00:23:24,208 --> 00:23:24,498 Brad Frost: Yeah. 364 00:23:24,679 --> 00:23:29,658 Sacha: culture and good like no you see the same thing in the growth of 365 00:23:29,958 --> 00:23:36,877 megachurches for example You with ultimately great values but Fast growth 366 00:23:37,087 --> 00:23:41,892 heaps of people you know nobody's got an eye on culture Nobody's got an eye 367 00:23:41,892 --> 00:23:46,812 on whether people are being protected and supported So so I think I think 368 00:23:46,812 --> 00:23:51,732 obviously values are important but I think scale does something irreparable 369 00:23:51,974 --> 00:23:56,264 that that just kind of poisons whatever it is you're trying to do 370 00:23:56,464 --> 00:24:00,849 Brad Frost: As, as you're saying this, you're the, the fact that you're in 371 00:24:00,849 --> 00:24:05,709 New Zealand becomes very apparent and I, 'cause I feel, I feel, I 372 00:24:05,709 --> 00:24:08,139 feel like, like New Zealand maybe. 373 00:24:08,729 --> 00:24:09,449 Sacha: syndrome 374 00:24:09,879 --> 00:24:14,214 Brad Frost: Well, no, no, but my understanding is that because of New 375 00:24:14,214 --> 00:24:19,764 Zealand's just location history of the, the whole nine yards ecology. 376 00:24:19,964 --> 00:24:26,134 There's like kind of an attitude towards like, there's, there's a finitude to 377 00:24:26,546 --> 00:24:33,056 You can't explode your population to like billions upon billions of people. 378 00:24:33,086 --> 00:24:37,730 Like you, you can't like do I've always understood you all to like 379 00:24:37,730 --> 00:24:44,150 have to care more about sort of, uh, sustainability and, and like what you 380 00:24:44,150 --> 00:24:48,410 are allowing in, and there there's just like a little bit more like thought 381 00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:53,390 to it just because of like the, the nature of in shape of your country. 382 00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:53,930 I don't know. 383 00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:55,190 Is that, is that wrong? 384 00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:58,550 Is that, or is that, or I, I, I might be wildly off the mark there, but. 385 00:24:58,571 --> 00:25:02,561 Sacha: is I think there is something to that I think our isolation and our 386 00:25:02,591 --> 00:25:09,001 distance and our population size does probably put some sort of different fences 387 00:25:09,001 --> 00:25:14,251 around what we do And I think probably we saw that most keenly during COVID 388 00:25:14,641 --> 00:25:20,221 um when we took a different approach to everywhere else in the world Um pretty 389 00:25:20,221 --> 00:25:24,928 much so so yeah I think I think there is something to that hypergrowth is 390 00:25:24,928 --> 00:25:30,898 something that um is a pretty recent phenomenon The idea that you can be global 391 00:25:30,898 --> 00:25:34,858 from day one which is a a phrase that gets kicked around here a lot It's like 392 00:25:34,858 --> 00:25:37,558 if you're gonna build a company in New Zealand there's no point in building it 393 00:25:37,558 --> 00:25:41,008 for the New Zealand market cause the New Zealand market's too small So you have 394 00:25:41,008 --> 00:25:45,898 to build something that's capable of of being global right from the start And I 395 00:25:45,898 --> 00:25:51,493 think there's um some pluses and minuses with that as we've discovered You know 396 00:25:51,598 --> 00:25:51,948 Brad Frost: Yeah. 397 00:25:52,243 --> 00:25:55,603 Sacha: maybe maybe we don't wanna build things that are global from day one 398 00:25:55,638 --> 00:25:56,028 Brad Frost: Right. 399 00:25:56,173 --> 00:26:04,479 Sacha: want to build things that that work on smaller scales and uh for specific 400 00:26:04,479 --> 00:26:10,479 communities or um for specific purposes rather than trying to be everything to 401 00:26:10,479 --> 00:26:14,679 everyone And and I think you know when you think about design choices I wrote 402 00:26:14,679 --> 00:26:18,999 a piece last year about the the design of the Everything app because I feel 403 00:26:18,999 --> 00:26:23,259 like the even just the look and feel of our platform apps they're becoming 404 00:26:23,259 --> 00:26:27,369 indistinguishable You know like if you look at the front page of your Spotify 405 00:26:27,504 --> 00:26:34,089 app it's um audio books podcasts video podcasts they're now moving into selling 406 00:26:34,089 --> 00:26:39,519 physical books It's like the the reason you went there Which was music you loved 407 00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:44,289 is increasingly buried under a torrent of other things Substack the same You know 408 00:26:44,289 --> 00:26:50,724 like a platform that begins as a place for independent writers is now video 409 00:26:50,724 --> 00:26:57,633 content um social media style short form posts Now they've got Substack tv is what 410 00:26:57,633 --> 00:27:04,343 a chat show You know like it's um and so they the motivation to keep everyone 411 00:27:04,343 --> 00:27:07,703 on your app for as long as possible 412 00:27:07,903 --> 00:27:08,123 Brad Frost: Yes. 413 00:27:08,328 --> 00:27:13,996 Sacha: of produces this b b the apps so that that they're they're all the same 414 00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:14,600 Brad Frost: Yeah. 415 00:27:14,866 --> 00:27:19,486 Sacha: you know I I don't think that's what we want We want to you know 416 00:27:19,486 --> 00:27:24,396 there's a reason that we resist chain experiences chain restaurants or chain 417 00:27:24,396 --> 00:27:29,799 bars except when we need sort of know the the reliability of knowing that a 418 00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:33,563 Big Mac tastes more or less the same everywhere and the reason we resist 419 00:27:33,563 --> 00:27:37,553 that is because we want personalized experiences You know we want we 420 00:27:37,727 --> 00:27:37,787 Brad Frost: Yeah. 421 00:27:38,303 --> 00:27:42,480 Sacha: neighborhood feel or a local feel or a great pineapple 422 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,800 fried rice You know like we 423 00:27:43,945 --> 00:27:44,335 Brad Frost: Yeah, 424 00:27:44,370 --> 00:27:46,740 Sacha: don't want it to feel the same everywhere 425 00:27:47,006 --> 00:27:47,396 Brad Frost: yeah. 426 00:27:47,501 --> 00:27:51,236 I, I, and I love, I love that corollary, like to the physical world. 427 00:27:51,686 --> 00:27:56,296 One of my, my favorite articles of all times written by my, my 428 00:27:56,296 --> 00:27:59,416 friend Rachel Andrew called, that, called The Small Shops of the Web 429 00:27:59,776 --> 00:28:02,176 or something to, to that nature. 430 00:28:02,536 --> 00:28:07,006 And at the time she was working on like, kind of like a small scale 431 00:28:07,066 --> 00:28:11,596 content management system that was like a, you know, a, a a paid thing. 432 00:28:11,722 --> 00:28:16,648 she describes this, that street right with those local restaurants, so with the local 433 00:28:16,648 --> 00:28:20,926 butchered, with like the local bookseller and with like that, the, the local 434 00:28:20,926 --> 00:28:26,806 butcher doesn't wanna scale to become also a bookseller all of a sudden, oh, by 435 00:28:26,806 --> 00:28:28,786 the way, like here and, and here's our. 436 00:28:29,116 --> 00:28:29,326 Yeah. 437 00:28:29,326 --> 00:28:32,926 Here's our, our suite of, of barbecue gear. 438 00:28:32,926 --> 00:28:38,896 And, and it's like, no, how about, how about we all just like coexist? 439 00:28:38,926 --> 00:28:42,856 And it, it, it gets, it gets, I think like what you're touching on are like 440 00:28:42,856 --> 00:28:46,486 kind of two things that are, that are, are front of mind for me is just like 441 00:28:47,194 --> 00:28:51,454 a wholesale rethinking about growth in general as like a desirable thing. 442 00:28:51,571 --> 00:28:53,177 growth versus sustainability. 443 00:28:53,177 --> 00:28:55,607 Like, like, we wanna sustain the local butcher shops. 444 00:28:55,607 --> 00:28:57,617 We wanna sustain the local bookshops. 445 00:28:57,827 --> 00:29:02,057 And yes, there needs to be like enough of a, you know, money 446 00:29:02,057 --> 00:29:03,842 coming in to keep those lights on. 447 00:29:03,982 --> 00:29:06,719 But like the, growth isn't good in that case, right? 448 00:29:06,719 --> 00:29:09,389 Like, we want, we wanna sustain that like healthy. 449 00:29:09,899 --> 00:29:15,899 And then there's also this, this idea of competition versus collaboration. 450 00:29:16,229 --> 00:29:17,699 And I, I can't. 451 00:29:18,344 --> 00:29:19,094 Stress enough? 452 00:29:19,094 --> 00:29:21,734 Just like, like how unhealthy I see. 453 00:29:21,734 --> 00:29:27,703 Like any, really as time goes on, aside from like sports, I like, competition 454 00:29:27,703 --> 00:29:35,283 is so incredibly awful when it comes to doing things that are meant to, 455 00:29:35,373 --> 00:29:40,323 like we are all the recipients of people competing against each other, 456 00:29:40,323 --> 00:29:41,943 countries competing against each other. 457 00:29:41,943 --> 00:29:45,220 It's companies competing against each other we all get a shit 458 00:29:45,220 --> 00:29:46,930 experience as a result of it. 459 00:29:47,260 --> 00:29:51,370 So it's like we need to figure out right quick how to start actually 460 00:29:51,370 --> 00:29:55,720 like collaborating with one another to realize, oh yeah, like maybe I shouldn't. 461 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,430 Be the bookseller and I should like, we should figure out how to 462 00:30:00,430 --> 00:30:01,960 like, kind of feed one another. 463 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,630 And that's what you see with like a vibrant main street. 464 00:30:05,050 --> 00:30:08,800 Like that has the things like, yeah, you go to that street and you're 465 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,500 gonna wander up and down the street and you're gonna have a charming 466 00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:13,330 experience, a diverse experience. 467 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,980 And it's the entirety of that charming main street, not one 468 00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:23,520 particular shop that is like, that is contributing to, to the charm and 469 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,500 to the, to the, to the ecosystem. 470 00:30:25,529 --> 00:30:28,859 Sacha: to continue that that physical world analogy you know those vibrant 471 00:30:28,859 --> 00:30:30,538 neighborhoods don't happen by accident 472 00:30:30,685 --> 00:30:31,075 Brad Frost: Yes. 473 00:30:31,305 --> 00:30:35,685 Sacha: a whole bunch of infrastructure that underpins a great neighborhood and 474 00:30:35,785 --> 00:30:36,025 Brad Frost: Right. 475 00:30:36,045 --> 00:30:41,655 Sacha: requires human centered governance It it requires sort of long term thinking 476 00:30:41,655 --> 00:30:46,845 It requires a whole bunch of stuff And so when you pull that analogy back into the 477 00:30:46,845 --> 00:30:51,945 digital world um that's when people sort of go it's too hard Like you can't you 478 00:30:51,945 --> 00:30:55,335 can't fix it now like the genie's out the bottle This is just what we're stuck with 479 00:30:55,599 --> 00:30:55,889 Brad Frost: Yeah. 480 00:30:56,235 --> 00:31:00,424 Sacha: I refuse to believe that because you know I often quote Molly White when 481 00:31:00,424 --> 00:31:05,794 she talks about how the internet is still outside the walls And um that was one of 482 00:31:05,794 --> 00:31:12,184 the most helpful sort of things I I think for me to understand is that we've come 483 00:31:12,184 --> 00:31:18,094 to accept this handful of wall gardens that we're all living in now but the web 484 00:31:18,094 --> 00:31:23,434 is infinite Like it just it's out there and we can build whatever spaces we like 485 00:31:23,614 --> 00:31:29,194 We can um make whatever communities we can throw up whatever infrastructure 486 00:31:29,194 --> 00:31:34,354 And as we were saying earlier that that's becoming uh easier not harder 487 00:31:34,923 --> 00:31:35,143 Brad Frost: Yep. 488 00:31:35,343 --> 00:31:40,673 Sacha: and and I think the What we have to change attitudinally is this 489 00:31:40,673 --> 00:31:45,413 tendency to go well but I have to build something that that's for everyone Or I 490 00:31:45,413 --> 00:31:50,410 have to you know this is only a success if it's the next Twitter or the next 491 00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:55,960 TikTok and it's like no the success will be dozens hundreds thousands 492 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,810 of great healthy neighborhoods not 493 00:31:59,090 --> 00:31:59,390 Brad Frost: Yeah. 494 00:31:59,770 --> 00:32:01,180 Sacha: giant city again 495 00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:01,770 Brad Frost: Yeah. 496 00:32:01,950 --> 00:32:04,230 No, I, I couldn't agree more. 497 00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:09,140 I think that that's, that's like really beautiful and most of these places 498 00:32:09,470 --> 00:32:15,140 have been built as like basic human or, or like kind of communication 499 00:32:15,140 --> 00:32:19,190 protocols or with that idea of, it's like, ah, yes, we want like literally 500 00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:24,440 everyone to be using it because of the aspirations of scale or whatever. 501 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,775 But it's like there's, there's, there's something intentionally, 502 00:32:28,975 --> 00:32:31,255 deliberately small, right? 503 00:32:31,255 --> 00:32:33,115 This is for New Zealand only. 504 00:32:33,262 --> 00:32:36,382 Sacha: It's a focus right Like who is it for And 505 00:32:36,496 --> 00:32:36,886 Brad Frost: Yeah, 506 00:32:37,086 --> 00:32:41,286 Sacha: somewhere along the way like you used to talk about product development and 507 00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:46,670 user personas and whatever and you knew specifically who you were building for 508 00:32:47,234 --> 00:32:47,594 Brad Frost: yeah, 509 00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:51,710 Sacha: along the line the goal became well it has to work for everyone And it's like 510 00:32:51,770 --> 00:32:55,813 we we know that it can't so I think it's also about focus It's about coming back 511 00:32:55,813 --> 00:32:57,883 and saying who is this for And you know 512 00:32:57,908 --> 00:32:58,328 Brad Frost: yeah. 513 00:32:58,723 --> 00:33:02,533 Sacha: when when while we've been building Lume you know we have to keep 514 00:33:02,593 --> 00:33:09,463 focusing on the fact that this is for a a subset of people This is for music 515 00:33:09,463 --> 00:33:15,253 lovers who want to sit down and immerse themselves in an album's experience 516 00:33:15,283 --> 00:33:21,883 It's not for everyone And um you know 80 90 of people will continue to put on a 517 00:33:21,913 --> 00:33:27,763 Spotify playlist in the background and be perfectly content do that you know like 518 00:33:27,948 --> 00:33:28,238 Brad Frost: Yeah. 519 00:33:28,723 --> 00:33:34,342 Sacha: summer afternoon and you chuck on aha lounge tracks whatever because all 520 00:33:34,342 --> 00:33:38,152 you're looking for is that background music and you're not sitting down to 521 00:33:38,152 --> 00:33:40,192 immerse yourself in an artist's work 522 00:33:40,411 --> 00:33:46,381 so maintaining that rigid focus like who is this for I think is really key And and 523 00:33:46,711 --> 00:33:50,721 along the way we sort of decided that you know it had to be for everyone and you 524 00:33:50,721 --> 00:33:54,551 just you can't build that way and the the products that come out the other side of 525 00:33:54,551 --> 00:33:56,471 that process are don't work for anyone 526 00:33:56,571 --> 00:33:59,631 Brad Frost: like, as you're talking about, like music, it's like, oh, like 527 00:33:59,631 --> 00:34:03,441 you're, you're building a product that is, that is a kind of a representation 528 00:34:03,501 --> 00:34:07,941 of what actual music is most successful. 529 00:34:07,971 --> 00:34:13,431 Music, successful in the sense that successful music is something 530 00:34:13,431 --> 00:34:18,911 that I feel like is, is a true reflection of, true expression of 531 00:34:18,911 --> 00:34:20,651 the human beings who created it. 532 00:34:20,801 --> 00:34:24,341 Not, not commercially successful, not like, like anything like that, the 533 00:34:24,341 --> 00:34:27,371 goal with that, the goal is truth. 534 00:34:27,371 --> 00:34:32,754 The goal is is authentic expression versus, is me adding that quaver to 535 00:34:32,754 --> 00:34:35,064 my voice, gonna sell some more copies. 536 00:34:35,264 --> 00:34:36,884 The thing like, that's not, that's not it. 537 00:34:36,884 --> 00:34:37,274 Yeah. 538 00:34:37,474 --> 00:34:41,014 Sacha: Last night I was lucky enough to go and hear a New Zealand musician Julia 539 00:34:41,014 --> 00:34:47,004 Deans perform her new album through for the first time And it's uh I guess it'll 540 00:34:47,004 --> 00:34:53,557 be out by the time this drops And it's about her journey with cancer and it is an 541 00:34:53,557 --> 00:35:02,118 incredibly personal moving album that is telling a story of a really difficult time 542 00:35:02,118 --> 00:35:08,148 in her life And you know there's there's nothing more real than that And I think 543 00:35:08,248 --> 00:35:08,668 Brad Frost: Yeah. 544 00:35:08,868 --> 00:35:12,168 Sacha: of the things that frustrates me a little bit about I mean I spend all my 545 00:35:12,168 --> 00:35:18,080 time writing and thinking about Fans and fandom and online fan communities And one 546 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,982 of the tendencies that that frustrates me at the moment is fans trying to dig 547 00:35:22,982 --> 00:35:28,382 into what is the song about you know like who who is this song about Or what's this 548 00:35:28,382 --> 00:35:33,217 you know like which of Taylor Swift's exes is this song about Or you know who 549 00:35:33,217 --> 00:35:38,047 is Harry Styles dating based on this on this song And it's like it's not a 550 00:35:38,287 --> 00:35:42,607 it's not for us to decode The artist has made something that they're sharing with 551 00:35:42,607 --> 00:35:45,457 you It's not a Rosetta Stone for you 552 00:35:45,696 --> 00:35:45,966 Brad Frost: Yeah. 553 00:35:46,537 --> 00:35:49,507 Sacha: um greater access to their personal life 554 00:35:49,659 --> 00:35:52,599 Brad Frost: there's something psychologically that like drives people 555 00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:56,244 or compels people to it is like, Ooh, I like this and I feel like I need to like. 556 00:35:57,009 --> 00:36:01,449 Get closer to it, or I need to, like, it's like, how do I go deeper into this 557 00:36:01,449 --> 00:36:04,720 thing that like, resonates with me, right? 558 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:10,240 It's like, it's like something, something draws them in and attracts them to Taylor 559 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:12,880 Swift, Terry Styles, or, or really anyone. 560 00:36:13,123 --> 00:36:15,853 and then it's like, I got, I gotta get closer. 561 00:36:15,913 --> 00:36:20,089 Like, I, I don't know, like, is it, is what drives that stuff or is 562 00:36:20,089 --> 00:36:22,240 it, I don't know, something else? 563 00:36:22,374 --> 00:36:25,764 Sacha: Yeah I think I think there's a few things There's the parasocial 564 00:36:25,764 --> 00:36:30,624 aspect of I wanna know this person or I feel like I know this person um 565 00:36:30,634 --> 00:36:30,994 Brad Frost: Hmm. 566 00:36:31,194 --> 00:36:35,216 Sacha: art or or through their creativity And so you know I wanna 567 00:36:35,216 --> 00:36:38,101 know more they're like my best friend and so I want to sort of 568 00:36:38,290 --> 00:36:38,740 Brad Frost: sure. 569 00:36:38,971 --> 00:36:39,271 Sacha: them 570 00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:39,880 Brad Frost: Sure. 571 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:39,890 I. 572 00:36:40,111 --> 00:36:44,011 Sacha: there's also something that's happening over the last sort of decade 573 00:36:44,011 --> 00:36:51,996 with um uh I I speak a bit about the the impact of conspiracy thinking on pop 574 00:36:51,996 --> 00:36:56,166 culture and celebrity spaces And I think there's there's something that goes on 575 00:36:56,166 --> 00:37:01,759 where people feel like there's a a puzzle or a mystery to solve There's signs and 576 00:37:01,759 --> 00:37:07,169 signals to to be decoded I used to think that that was kind of cute and harmless 577 00:37:07,169 --> 00:37:10,949 I now think it's a bit of an on-ramp to much more dangerous thinking But in 578 00:37:10,949 --> 00:37:17,029 celebrity spaces it sort of takes the form of um that paparazzi photos are always 579 00:37:17,029 --> 00:37:23,269 staged or that um you know relationships are for PR or you know like this kind 580 00:37:23,269 --> 00:37:27,919 of and there's there's aspects of that that are sort of fun or funny where you 581 00:37:27,919 --> 00:37:32,924 go oh was Beyonce ever really pregnant Or you know like that sort of that's 582 00:37:32,924 --> 00:37:38,448 that feels harmless but actually takes on quite a dark Undertone And I think 583 00:37:38,448 --> 00:37:41,808 there are some artists who lean into that deliberately And Taylor Swift's a a great 584 00:37:41,808 --> 00:37:46,158 example She loves to hide Easter eggs for her fans and you know like sort of drop 585 00:37:46,158 --> 00:37:50,839 signals about what's coming And and she knows that they love that but that that 586 00:37:50,839 --> 00:37:56,039 I think that then drives like a a really intrusive Mode for some people who are 587 00:37:56,039 --> 00:38:00,989 like well she's secretly gay and she's trying to signal that to us by using the 588 00:38:00,989 --> 00:38:06,389 color lavender And uh you you know like it's sort of that that piece um plays 589 00:38:06,389 --> 00:38:10,559 into something which I think is quite a human response We love mysteries and we 590 00:38:10,989 --> 00:38:11,319 Brad Frost: Sure. 591 00:38:11,519 --> 00:38:15,779 Sacha: solving And in celebrity spaces you know there's this mode of gossip 592 00:38:15,779 --> 00:38:22,229 called celebrity blind items or blind items And so you'll often see um posts 593 00:38:22,229 --> 00:38:27,689 that are like which a-list celebrity was seen making out with a you know Euro 594 00:38:27,689 --> 00:38:33,569 pop star after the Golden Globes And uh and people are always trying to solve 595 00:38:33,569 --> 00:38:36,809 blind items and work out who who it is that they're talking about And we love 596 00:38:36,999 --> 00:38:37,479 Brad Frost: Yeah, 597 00:38:37,499 --> 00:38:38,999 Sacha: little brain brain tickle 598 00:38:39,371 --> 00:38:44,106 but they're also uh An on ramp to starting to think that everything we 599 00:38:44,106 --> 00:38:52,236 see is staged or fake or for PR or and and it's not a it's not a long leap 600 00:38:52,596 --> 00:38:57,276 to then getting into some of the more complex conspiracy thinking which leads 601 00:38:57,276 --> 00:39:03,344 us down anti-vax and Q anon and much more complicated political kind of roots 602 00:39:03,809 --> 00:39:07,079 Brad Frost: Well, I'm sure that AI is going to fix all of this, so 603 00:39:07,124 --> 00:39:07,304 Sacha: Oh 604 00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:08,219 Brad Frost: we have nothing to, 605 00:39:08,419 --> 00:39:10,299 Sacha: We have nothing to fear unable to 606 00:39:10,343 --> 00:39:10,673 Brad Frost: but 607 00:39:10,779 --> 00:39:12,069 Sacha: anything is real or fake 608 00:39:12,489 --> 00:39:15,620 Brad Frost: it's like those things, like, uh, it's always weird to be like, oh 609 00:39:15,890 --> 00:39:19,869 yeah, when it comes to that like celebrity culture, it's like, oh, poor Taylor Swift. 610 00:39:19,869 --> 00:39:21,699 And like, people are like, ha ha ha. 611 00:39:21,699 --> 00:39:22,299 And it's like, no. 612 00:39:22,299 --> 00:39:24,189 Like, man, that's a, that's a hard life. 613 00:39:24,189 --> 00:39:27,519 But also they're, they're kind of like the canaries in the coal mine 614 00:39:27,939 --> 00:39:33,639 for what's kind of coming for us all, which is again, this, this very real 615 00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:37,300 like, here's the thing, deep fake, like if you could just like snap your 616 00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:39,520 fingers, especially whatever it's like. 617 00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:44,620 You don't have the, the eyeballs of, of these like mega celebrities and 618 00:39:44,620 --> 00:39:49,360 instead it's just like neighbor trying to slander neighbor or student trying 619 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,340 to bully, you know, cyber bully or like whatever, or stage something or whatever. 620 00:39:54,340 --> 00:40:00,825 It's like again that, that that ease of creation as going down to next to nothing. 621 00:40:00,825 --> 00:40:04,275 To the point where any one of us could just, you know, prompt a thing 622 00:40:04,275 --> 00:40:08,415 and, and end up with something in the ballpark and fast forward a year or two, 623 00:40:08,415 --> 00:40:13,650 whenever it's just like no noticeable differences in in the fidelity. 624 00:40:14,291 --> 00:40:17,286 Sacha: and and I think that works both ways right Because we're also 625 00:40:17,286 --> 00:40:21,756 gonna see people who have done things wrong claiming that the evidence of 626 00:40:21,786 --> 00:40:24,276 their misdeeds is fake as well You 627 00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:25,740 Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 628 00:40:25,746 --> 00:40:28,476 Sacha: only we're we're not far from people saying no I wasn't in the 629 00:40:28,476 --> 00:40:30,666 Epstein files It was a deep fake So 630 00:40:30,690 --> 00:40:31,320 Brad Frost: Yeah. 631 00:40:31,356 --> 00:40:35,106 Sacha: like there's there's obviously there's a lot of danger that underpins 632 00:40:35,106 --> 00:40:39,174 all of that And I don't know what the right answer is I think we are seeing some 633 00:40:39,474 --> 00:40:46,094 promising signs around digital literacy uh coming out of Finland Finland is a 634 00:40:46,184 --> 00:40:50,554 always a great place to start I dunno what it is about the fins but they they 635 00:40:50,554 --> 00:40:56,434 seem to have it under control Um but they they're having real success in their um 636 00:40:56,434 --> 00:41:04,234 schooling programs with teaching kids from the youngest age to start to understand 637 00:41:04,324 --> 00:41:07,954 um what they're being fed and why And and 638 00:41:08,059 --> 00:41:08,349 Brad Frost: Yeah. 639 00:41:08,974 --> 00:41:12,394 Sacha: and I think the the rest of the world just needs to catch up in terms 640 00:41:12,509 --> 00:41:12,799 Brad Frost: Yeah, 641 00:41:12,814 --> 00:41:13,324 Sacha: of 642 00:41:13,389 --> 00:41:13,679 Brad Frost: yeah. 643 00:41:13,774 --> 00:41:17,904 Sacha: that kind of teaching kids defense against the dark arts And and 644 00:41:17,904 --> 00:41:21,844 unfortunately the Western response at the moment seems to be well why don't 645 00:41:21,844 --> 00:41:23,914 we just ban kids from using the internet 646 00:41:24,126 --> 00:41:24,416 Brad Frost: Yeah. 647 00:41:24,566 --> 00:41:27,086 Sacha: is a terrible idea 648 00:41:27,666 --> 00:41:28,406 Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 649 00:41:28,706 --> 00:41:32,786 Sacha: you know it's gonna take a little bit to to get past that 650 00:41:33,261 --> 00:41:34,671 panic that's going on at the 651 00:41:35,115 --> 00:41:35,535 Brad Frost: Mm-hmm. 652 00:41:35,721 --> 00:41:41,111 Sacha: Um and for people to realize that age gating the internet only affects It 653 00:41:41,185 --> 00:41:41,405 Brad Frost: Uh, 654 00:41:41,501 --> 00:41:45,631 Sacha: affect kids Um and for a few large scale data hacks to reveal 655 00:41:45,631 --> 00:41:49,231 everybody's uh personal information signed up for porn sites and then 656 00:41:49,231 --> 00:41:52,111 maybe the pendulum will swing back the 657 00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:52,600 Brad Frost: yeah. 658 00:41:53,071 --> 00:41:53,731 Sacha: we'll see 659 00:41:54,310 --> 00:41:54,850 Brad Frost: yeah. 660 00:41:54,910 --> 00:41:55,270 Yeah. 661 00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:58,000 I think, I think it's like, that's like kind of like a through line of our 662 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,830 conversation so far as like the, the answer isn't necessarily just like, things 663 00:42:02,830 --> 00:42:09,130 are bad, we need to hit the off switch, and it's like that's one impossible 664 00:42:09,330 --> 00:42:09,840 Sacha: Yeah 665 00:42:09,970 --> 00:42:10,840 Brad Frost: a lot of respects. 666 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,160 It's like, there, there's obviously you have like personal agency just as in like, 667 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,450 Carry a lot of this stuff over to things like the decision to, to be vegan or not. 668 00:42:19,510 --> 00:42:24,910 Uh, for instance, it's like plenty of amazing reasons to be vegan, but to just 669 00:42:24,910 --> 00:42:27,040 be like, everyone just needs to be vegan. 670 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,510 And then like, we'll, we'll get out of this. 671 00:42:28,510 --> 00:42:31,210 It's like, dude, like that's a great idea. 672 00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:35,440 And it's like, and best of luck to you trying to, to convince the, the world, 673 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,120 but like, as at a personal level, sure. 674 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,630 If you wanna like throw your phone into the ocean and go back to 675 00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:44,284 the earth, good on you and you'll probably be healthier probably. 676 00:42:44,314 --> 00:42:51,094 But at the same time, that's not feasible at a societal sort of scale. 677 00:42:51,094 --> 00:42:52,474 It's like, like the, the, 678 00:42:52,764 --> 00:42:57,944 Sacha: scale And also I think it it gives up on the amazing things that 679 00:42:58,134 --> 00:42:58,734 Brad Frost: yes. 680 00:42:59,004 --> 00:42:59,574 Yeah. 681 00:42:59,594 --> 00:43:05,882 Sacha: being online So you know I'm not I find zealots the only touch 682 00:43:05,882 --> 00:43:08,824 grass mantra annoying cause I'm like 683 00:43:09,314 --> 00:43:09,734 Brad Frost: Yeah. 684 00:43:09,964 --> 00:43:13,834 Sacha: Your screen time is 30 minutes a day when you allow yourself Good 685 00:43:13,834 --> 00:43:18,303 on you but I still think you're missing out do I have to work harder 686 00:43:18,303 --> 00:43:25,413 to consume the internet in a healthy and ethical and and fabulous way Sure 687 00:43:26,062 --> 00:43:26,352 Brad Frost: Yeah. 688 00:43:26,523 --> 00:43:29,673 Sacha: I see lots of things we could improve to make that easier for people 689 00:43:29,673 --> 00:43:32,403 Absolutely But I'm not giving up on it I I 690 00:43:32,552 --> 00:43:32,772 Brad Frost: Uh, 691 00:43:33,183 --> 00:43:38,883 Sacha: experience so much joy and connection and um curiosity and I learn 692 00:43:38,883 --> 00:43:45,153 so much every day Um that that I think uh turning your back on it is not the answer 693 00:43:45,807 --> 00:43:47,837 Brad Frost: I, I couldn't agree more. 694 00:43:47,837 --> 00:43:49,367 And I love how you said it earlier. 695 00:43:49,367 --> 00:43:53,797 It's like those, those, those early years in building block years of, of 696 00:43:53,947 --> 00:43:58,027 the web as people were first getting online, figuring out what it's all for. 697 00:43:58,216 --> 00:44:01,666 the, the literal like principles that the worldwide web was founded on and 698 00:44:01,666 --> 00:44:06,206 the fact that it was founded through, you know, CERN and not through like a, a 699 00:44:06,256 --> 00:44:09,916 commercial entity, although there's plenty of stuff like around that, whatever. 700 00:44:09,916 --> 00:44:13,156 But it's like this stuff is built at a bedrock level. 701 00:44:13,156 --> 00:44:18,376 The web is on like some of the, the loftiest and most hopeful and optimistic 702 00:44:18,376 --> 00:44:23,843 and beautiful, I think i I ideals and values that, humanity can aspire to 703 00:44:24,088 --> 00:44:24,298 Sacha: And I 704 00:44:24,443 --> 00:44:24,833 Brad Frost: and. 705 00:44:24,898 --> 00:44:29,869 Sacha: one of the biggest challenges with behavior change in this way is you we 706 00:44:29,869 --> 00:44:34,456 were both in Berlin at the end of last year and and one of the things I did at 707 00:44:34,456 --> 00:44:38,836 that conference was interview my good friend Lucy Blackstone who runs um the 708 00:44:38,836 --> 00:44:43,296 Gen Z media uh empire Shit you should care about one of the things that that was 709 00:44:43,296 --> 00:44:47,376 new to me in that conversation she and I obviously talk about being online all the 710 00:44:47,376 --> 00:44:52,756 time her pointing out that for those of us who remember the early web can see a 711 00:44:52,756 --> 00:44:57,366 path forward something different because we remember what it was like But for her 712 00:44:57,486 --> 00:44:57,776 Brad Frost: Yeah. 713 00:44:57,936 --> 00:45:02,076 Sacha: who have grown up entirely on platforms that doesn't form part 714 00:45:02,076 --> 00:45:03,396 of their foundation they've only 715 00:45:03,466 --> 00:45:03,766 Brad Frost: Yep. 716 00:45:04,476 --> 00:45:09,573 Sacha: platform life her skepticism That she could ever convince you 717 00:45:09,573 --> 00:45:14,643 know her generation to want to try something different because 718 00:45:14,643 --> 00:45:16,323 they don't know it And I I 719 00:45:16,618 --> 00:45:16,888 Brad Frost: Yeah. 720 00:45:16,988 --> 00:45:20,928 Sacha: that to me is a really interesting challenge Like remain optimistic 721 00:45:20,928 --> 00:45:24,738 about the possibility of the web because I remember a different web and 722 00:45:24,762 --> 00:45:25,332 Brad Frost: Yes. 723 00:45:25,638 --> 00:45:30,468 Sacha: say remember rather than long for because it had its own set 724 00:45:30,468 --> 00:45:35,868 of flaws You know it was small and homogenous and hard to get around and 725 00:45:35,868 --> 00:45:38,028 you know like it's I'm not utopian 726 00:45:38,067 --> 00:45:38,367 Brad Frost: Yeah. 727 00:45:38,418 --> 00:45:39,258 Sacha: early web at 728 00:45:39,477 --> 00:45:39,717 Brad Frost: Yep, 729 00:45:39,789 --> 00:45:42,789 Sacha: but I am utopian about its possibility right And 730 00:45:42,828 --> 00:45:43,188 Brad Frost: Yes, 731 00:45:43,209 --> 00:45:47,859 Sacha: think um the more interesting challenges what does it look like to 732 00:45:47,859 --> 00:45:52,419 show that possibility to a generation who ha who doesn't remember it 733 00:45:52,608 --> 00:45:53,088 Brad Frost: yes. 734 00:45:53,319 --> 00:45:55,269 Sacha: um who hasn't experienced it 735 00:45:55,413 --> 00:45:55,633 Brad Frost: yep. 736 00:45:55,833 --> 00:46:00,693 Sacha: um and kind of get them excited about the possibilities again 737 00:46:01,453 --> 00:46:01,873 Brad Frost: Yeah. 738 00:46:01,933 --> 00:46:08,653 Uh, that's, it's so amazing and, and those, those kind of generational divides 739 00:46:08,923 --> 00:46:11,713 are, are really truly fascinating. 740 00:46:11,713 --> 00:46:16,095 And that's going to become, I think, more pronounced, which really does put 741 00:46:16,095 --> 00:46:20,595 a lot of responsibility, but also again, like, kind of provides that opportunity. 742 00:46:20,805 --> 00:46:21,405 It's like, oh yeah. 743 00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:24,030 The, the needs of production are coming down. 744 00:46:24,180 --> 00:46:26,280 We've been on this ride for a long time. 745 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,450 We've seen the, the, the good aspects, the good qualities, the good 746 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,090 affordances of a lot of these things. 747 00:46:33,252 --> 00:46:37,722 a lot of times misused and gone wayward or built using the wrong things and stuff. 748 00:46:37,722 --> 00:46:40,722 And it's like, there is kind of like that Yeah. 749 00:46:40,752 --> 00:46:43,062 Taking that and it's not nostalgia. 750 00:46:43,062 --> 00:46:46,722 It's like, it's the real, like, like we, we got, we got like a front row 751 00:46:46,722 --> 00:46:51,312 seat to sort of see what that like connection can, like, look like. 752 00:46:51,312 --> 00:46:54,949 Before we all kind of, put everybody in the room and it 753 00:46:54,949 --> 00:46:56,389 all just went, went bonkers. 754 00:46:56,929 --> 00:47:00,919 I think you're, you're hinting at it with your, your work that you're doing 755 00:47:00,919 --> 00:47:05,509 now, but also just like kind of what needs to happen to show these, these 756 00:47:05,509 --> 00:47:11,159 younger generations that it is possible and it, it, like it needs to exist. 757 00:47:11,159 --> 00:47:14,789 People see, you know, that, that seeing and that experiential part 758 00:47:14,789 --> 00:47:19,649 of it I think is like really, really necessary to show people 759 00:47:20,329 --> 00:47:25,189 Sacha: I think to learn better lessons from the history of the internet I 760 00:47:25,389 --> 00:47:25,679 Brad Frost: Yeah. 761 00:47:25,895 --> 00:47:30,305 Sacha: I'm writing a nonfiction book at the moment and it's a history of the 762 00:47:30,305 --> 00:47:38,045 internet through the lens of um online fan communities And that book is about um 763 00:47:38,245 --> 00:47:44,115 the women and queer people who To my mind are the power users of the internet over 764 00:47:44,115 --> 00:47:51,452 its history who built these fan spaces who um came up with some of the earliest 765 00:47:51,452 --> 00:47:58,532 forms of uh self-governance of tagging of content moderation of all of these sort of 766 00:47:58,532 --> 00:48:06,452 things that um they created out of whole cloth uh to make these spaces healthy 767 00:48:07,082 --> 00:48:07,372 Brad Frost: Yeah. 768 00:48:07,682 --> 00:48:14,822 Sacha: and and workable for large groups of people And um and that that's an 769 00:48:14,822 --> 00:48:20,769 untold history because we like to tell the stories of Silicon Valley bros who Chased 770 00:48:20,769 --> 00:48:25,619 scale and made millions And it's like can't learn the right lessons from those 771 00:48:25,709 --> 00:48:31,409 histories Um and so I think I think also going back and sort of digging into the 772 00:48:31,559 --> 00:48:38,759 the stories of you know what happened in the early muds and moves around governance 773 00:48:38,759 --> 00:48:44,699 and conflict and how people work those things through what happened in um early 774 00:48:44,699 --> 00:48:50,069 Usenet groups around how you signaled content in a subject line when something 775 00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:56,369 was essentially a list serve Um going back to the first fan archives and how people 776 00:48:56,369 --> 00:49:02,399 thought about preservation and tagging and taxonomies and um and all of those 777 00:49:02,399 --> 00:49:08,699 things are like crucial underpinnings of what good healthy online spaces 778 00:49:08,913 --> 00:49:09,203 Brad Frost: Yeah. 779 00:49:09,299 --> 00:49:16,049 Sacha: like Um and instead we have pursued this sort of revisionist 780 00:49:16,049 --> 00:49:23,191 history of the internet which is Iconoclast who are a trip to Mars 781 00:49:23,391 --> 00:49:23,901 Brad Frost: I love it. 782 00:49:23,901 --> 00:49:24,351 I love it. 783 00:49:24,351 --> 00:49:24,561 Yeah. 784 00:49:24,561 --> 00:49:28,683 It's like, you're kind of exposing, it's like here's all the, the sort of 785 00:49:28,863 --> 00:49:33,873 unsung heroes that have really kind of put a lot of the foundational pieces 786 00:49:33,873 --> 00:49:38,553 for like a, a durable caring human web. 787 00:49:38,973 --> 00:49:43,323 Like a way, a way to sort of like foster and, and build community and 788 00:49:43,323 --> 00:49:47,723 sustain it versus the, the, yeah, I'm going to win, I'm going to compete, 789 00:49:47,723 --> 00:49:49,903 I'm going to, I'm going to go to Mars. 790 00:49:50,079 --> 00:49:52,419 you've been pointed in that direction for a while. 791 00:49:52,419 --> 00:49:56,518 Like when you felt like, you're like, uh, this needs to be in a book format. 792 00:49:56,718 --> 00:50:00,108 Sacha: Great question Um so my my online journey has always been in 793 00:50:00,108 --> 00:50:05,088 transformative fan spaces And uh for your listeners who aren't necessarily 794 00:50:05,088 --> 00:50:11,598 familiar with that um that's fans who are engaged with um acts of creation 795 00:50:11,598 --> 00:50:13,308 around the things that they love So fan 796 00:50:13,452 --> 00:50:13,742 Brad Frost: Yeah. 797 00:50:13,968 --> 00:50:20,201 Sacha: art people who um aren't just consuming content but creating off the 798 00:50:20,201 --> 00:50:24,381 back of it and transforming it in some way that was where I started on the 799 00:50:24,381 --> 00:50:29,451 internet like when I first came online which was early by um this standards of 800 00:50:29,451 --> 00:50:35,028 this country uh 93 94 the first thing I wanted to do was find other people who 801 00:50:35,028 --> 00:50:38,988 were interested in the same things that I was And so you know the the first spaces 802 00:50:38,988 --> 00:50:42,678 where I set up home were fan communities And at that stage I was obsessed with the 803 00:50:42,678 --> 00:50:50,260 XFiles So I was in Alt tv XFiles and then I discovered that there was alt TV X Files 804 00:50:51,342 --> 00:50:56,622 where people were you know writing their own case files and stories And and that's 805 00:50:56,622 --> 00:51:01,902 where I fell in love with that whole side of the internet And I've been there ever 806 00:51:01,902 --> 00:51:08,022 since And I you know I've gone through all of the major technological migrations 807 00:51:08,022 --> 00:51:14,322 that fans have undergone So you know from those Usenet groups to Yahoo Mailing 808 00:51:14,322 --> 00:51:20,982 lists Yahoo Groups then into live journal um then into Tumblr then into social 809 00:51:20,982 --> 00:51:26,092 the social media era um and so on and so forth And That's always been my internet 810 00:51:26,092 --> 00:51:32,133 journey and one of the things that I um have found frustrating but instructive 811 00:51:32,133 --> 00:51:36,705 over the years is that it's pretty recent phenomenon for people to do fandom on 812 00:51:36,705 --> 00:51:41,205 Maine right Like we've only I guess one of the upsides of everybody existing on 813 00:51:41,205 --> 00:51:46,560 the same five platforms is that people have started to talk about their fanish 814 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,473 and obsessions and the things that they're into much more publicly and in a 815 00:51:50,473 --> 00:51:54,913 more mainstream way But for a long time it was incredibly taboo Like you didn't 816 00:51:55,243 --> 00:51:58,063 you didn't talk about the things you're obsessed with And I don't just mean you 817 00:51:58,063 --> 00:52:03,424 know TV shows but movies or or musicians or whatever it was that was something 818 00:52:03,424 --> 00:52:08,867 that you did in private uh usually under a pseudonym and it was you know it was just 819 00:52:08,867 --> 00:52:13,007 not something that you associated with your real government name and face And 820 00:52:13,066 --> 00:52:13,356 Brad Frost: Yeah. 821 00:52:13,637 --> 00:52:18,006 Sacha: that's a that's a new phenomenon And I was a lawyer so there was no 822 00:52:18,006 --> 00:52:21,876 way that I was gonna talk about these sorts of things because it was deeply 823 00:52:21,876 --> 00:52:26,946 unprofessional and uncool and you know like I I couldn't uh and when I stopped 824 00:52:26,946 --> 00:52:32,130 being a lawyer Which is like 10 years ago now I went to set up a and run a family 825 00:52:32,130 --> 00:52:36,390 office for a New Zealand investor but my job was he didn't mind what else I 826 00:52:36,390 --> 00:52:42,481 was doing with my life And so I started to write and speak at conferences about 827 00:52:42,481 --> 00:52:48,294 this intersection fandom and technology And and the reason I was doing that was 828 00:52:48,294 --> 00:52:53,274 because I felt like the very first talk I ever gave at a a tech conference um 829 00:52:53,274 --> 00:52:56,364 went sort of weirdly viral and it was called how the tech sector could move in 830 00:52:56,364 --> 00:53:02,964 one direction And it was about at that stage this was back in 20 15 20 16 we in 831 00:53:02,964 --> 00:53:05,694 tech we were obsessed with the pipeline problem Like where are all the young 832 00:53:05,694 --> 00:53:10,614 women in stem Um you know the reason these companies are full of Betty White 833 00:53:10,614 --> 00:53:16,314 dudes no offense is because you know we can't encourage young women to to study 834 00:53:16,374 --> 00:53:20,649 STEM subjects or whatever we now know that that was not The problem but at the 835 00:53:20,649 --> 00:53:24,609 time that was sort of diagnosed as being the problem And I gave this talk about 836 00:53:24,609 --> 00:53:28,209 how part of the reason that we couldn't find the young women in STEM was because 837 00:53:28,209 --> 00:53:32,649 we taught them that what they were doing online was embarrassing And in actual fact 838 00:53:32,859 --> 00:53:36,399 you know hundreds of thousands of young women were glued to their computers 24 839 00:53:36,399 --> 00:53:40,899 7 and they were teaching themselves to be community managers and video editors 840 00:53:40,899 --> 00:53:43,959 and they were making GIF sets and they were designing websites and they were 841 00:53:44,229 --> 00:53:49,689 doing all of the things that had they been young men doing it in pursuit of I 842 00:53:49,689 --> 00:53:54,069 don't know knocking out their first app would've got them hired at Google But 843 00:53:54,069 --> 00:53:59,829 because they were doing it in service of uh boy band that we'd taught them was 844 00:53:59,829 --> 00:54:03,009 something that they shouldn't confess to in their day-to-day lives Then you know 845 00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:07,339 off the back of that I've sort of been writing and speaking about this 846 00:54:07,339 --> 00:54:12,349 intersection for a long time now because I feel like fan communities are often the 847 00:54:12,349 --> 00:54:18,324 places where I can see Either the roadmap ahead for where we should be going that 848 00:54:18,324 --> 00:54:22,844 we've overlooked or forgotten or where I can see some of the things that are 849 00:54:22,844 --> 00:54:28,444 breaking So you know the clash between curatorial or gatekeeping fans around 850 00:54:28,444 --> 00:54:32,824 things like the Marvel cinematic universe versus transformative fans You know fans 851 00:54:32,824 --> 00:54:39,674 that don't wanna see new fans into F1 or or ice hockey because they don't consider 852 00:54:39,674 --> 00:54:44,714 them to be true fans if they're there because they liked a TV show Uh all of 853 00:54:44,714 --> 00:54:49,977 that sort of clash I think is teaches us something really instructive about online 854 00:54:49,977 --> 00:54:55,377 life And and so yeah after talking about it and writing about it for so long I 855 00:54:55,377 --> 00:54:59,341 was like this is a book I don't know if it will get to be a book My agents are 856 00:54:59,346 --> 00:55:02,881 are still in the process of trying to find a publisher for it but um hopefully 857 00:55:03,228 --> 00:55:06,948 Brad Frost: that's amazing, but like, holy crap, what a journey and like 858 00:55:07,047 --> 00:55:11,427 it's like a deeply personal one, but also just like, it, that feels like, 859 00:55:11,427 --> 00:55:16,227 like a real through line where it's like you'd like deeply understand the, 860 00:55:16,287 --> 00:55:21,867 this culture that that sort of anchors you as the, the landscape itself 861 00:55:21,867 --> 00:55:23,967 kind of keeps morphing and changing. 862 00:55:23,967 --> 00:55:25,557 You're able to sort of like see. 863 00:55:25,830 --> 00:55:29,610 riding this, this, this kind of through line and you're able 864 00:55:29,610 --> 00:55:31,620 to sort of like deduce Yeah. 865 00:55:31,620 --> 00:55:34,020 Like, like you said, like what's working, what's falling apart? 866 00:55:34,020 --> 00:55:37,650 Like how, I'm sure how like the affordances of the platforms 867 00:55:37,650 --> 00:55:39,100 work or not, or, yeah. 868 00:55:39,145 --> 00:55:42,985 Sacha: And community is at the heart of that And I think it doesn't matter how 869 00:55:42,985 --> 00:55:47,935 you experience it Like I for me it's been fandom but but um as humans we 870 00:55:47,935 --> 00:55:52,975 crave community Like that's just that's human nature We're built that way And 871 00:55:53,065 --> 00:55:59,305 and I think that what fandom has helped me to see as we've moved through the 872 00:55:59,305 --> 00:56:02,995 areas of the internet is the way that those tools and platforms and companies 873 00:56:02,995 --> 00:56:08,725 have served and have failed community at its at its broadest level right And 874 00:56:08,725 --> 00:56:14,794 so it's a it's a pretty base human need I think we you know it's been 20 plus 875 00:56:14,794 --> 00:56:19,930 years since Putnam wrote bowling alone but that sort of struggled to work out 876 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:28,080 what we lost when we lost small scale human scale you know neighborhoods where 877 00:56:28,290 --> 00:56:32,813 everybody knew each other's needs and and knew how to support one another And 878 00:56:32,828 --> 00:56:37,253 I I you know I think we're seeing the rise of that again with mutual aid Um I 879 00:56:37,253 --> 00:56:41,555 think at this moment in the United States particularly some of the the stories 880 00:56:41,555 --> 00:56:46,625 coming out of Minnesota of communities coming together to um just really stand 881 00:56:46,625 --> 00:56:50,887 up for and support one another in just the most straightforward ways you know 882 00:56:51,191 --> 00:56:51,411 Brad Frost: Yep. 883 00:56:51,607 --> 00:56:56,493 Sacha: and paying rent and and it's awful that it has to come out of 884 00:56:56,709 --> 00:56:59,349 you know such a horrifying set of circumstances But it's like we are 885 00:56:59,349 --> 00:57:00,909 wired that way We're wired that 886 00:57:00,924 --> 00:57:01,144 Brad Frost: Yes. 887 00:57:01,569 --> 00:57:05,499 Sacha: And and so as I think about online structure and I think about 888 00:57:05,499 --> 00:57:09,729 platforms and tools and so on I'm always community's always in the the back of 889 00:57:09,729 --> 00:57:11,229 my head as I think about those things 890 00:57:11,538 --> 00:57:14,478 Brad Frost: it's beautiful and I think that you're, you're dead on in saying it's 891 00:57:14,478 --> 00:57:20,469 like, it, it shouldn't take human made or natural disasters for people to, to 892 00:57:20,469 --> 00:57:22,809 sort of like come to get to that point. 893 00:57:22,809 --> 00:57:30,739 And, and also it's like, what does it look like to design those more kind of 894 00:57:30,739 --> 00:57:35,022 like hopeful forward leaning and more kind of creative pursuits that, ripple 895 00:57:35,022 --> 00:57:38,022 effect, that creative ripple effect that. 896 00:57:38,222 --> 00:57:43,694 The web does such a good job at allowing for these flowers 897 00:57:43,694 --> 00:57:46,484 to bLume from other things. 898 00:57:46,484 --> 00:57:50,804 And through the lens of community where it's like, would people individually 899 00:57:50,804 --> 00:57:55,086 be sort of s scrolling, you know, their fan fiction about X-Files, 900 00:57:55,086 --> 00:57:57,396 like just for their own gratitude? 901 00:57:57,396 --> 00:58:02,586 Like I think what we might be innately, fundamentally wired to create, but I 902 00:58:02,586 --> 00:58:08,166 think it's, it's probably through the combination of creativity and community. 903 00:58:08,166 --> 00:58:09,405 It's that, that feedback loop. 904 00:58:09,405 --> 00:58:11,287 Can you, can you like, talk about that? 905 00:58:11,387 --> 00:58:16,127 Sacha: Yeah and that sort of collaboration and and riffing and and so on Like I used 906 00:58:16,127 --> 00:58:21,257 to love that phase in in the early tiktoks where someone would post themselves 907 00:58:21,257 --> 00:58:24,947 playing a piece of music and then someone would stitch it accompanying them and 908 00:58:24,947 --> 00:58:28,397 so on and so on and you'd get this kind of stacked experience and the video of 909 00:58:28,427 --> 00:58:32,897 you know seven or eight different people making that happen But to your point about 910 00:58:32,897 --> 00:58:38,417 the the validation I guess um I I think you're absolutely right in transformative 911 00:58:38,417 --> 00:58:42,232 fan communities it's not Like the the reason you're in that community is to 912 00:58:42,412 --> 00:58:46,222 both consume the things that other people are making because you're getting more of 913 00:58:46,222 --> 00:58:49,462 what you love And also to share what it is that you are making and hope that people 914 00:58:49,462 --> 00:58:55,514 like it And and you know the the system of kudos that a O three the main fan archive 915 00:58:55,514 --> 00:58:59,954 uses you know people are always like there's nothing lovelier than when I get 916 00:58:59,954 --> 00:59:05,474 up every day receiving a new email from a O three that just lists like all the 917 00:59:05,564 --> 00:59:09,104 the stories of mine that people have left kudos on or the comments that they've left 918 00:59:09,104 --> 00:59:13,394 And and that's a beautiful a beautiful experience And I think unfortunately like 919 00:59:13,394 --> 00:59:18,404 everything breaks at scale because it's a dopamine hit and when people realize 920 00:59:18,404 --> 00:59:25,094 that they can achieve that dopamine hit of getting likes and followers through um 921 00:59:25,154 --> 00:59:31,544 darker patterns that's how we wind up with with some of these uglier um behaviors And 922 00:59:31,814 --> 00:59:35,654 you know back to that sort of conspiracy point I think that's what keeps people in 923 00:59:35,654 --> 00:59:41,229 some of these more These darker community spaces is that they find community and 924 00:59:41,229 --> 00:59:47,229 they find validation and they find that dopamine hit um because they share their 925 00:59:47,229 --> 00:59:53,439 new theory that that I don't know Melania is a wax double or whatever and they 926 00:59:53,439 --> 00:59:55,749 circle a few pictures with red ms paint 927 00:59:56,103 --> 00:59:56,598 Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, 928 00:59:56,949 --> 00:59:59,520 Sacha: and and people like it and they share it you know 929 00:59:59,604 --> 01:00:00,009 Brad Frost: yeah, yeah, 930 01:00:00,060 --> 01:00:05,057 Sacha: unfortunately the the same motivators work in both directions yeah 931 01:00:05,057 --> 01:00:09,677 I agree with you I think that ability to bring the thing that you've made to 932 01:00:09,677 --> 01:00:13,877 a community that will appreciate it um is so powerful And I think one of the 933 01:00:13,877 --> 01:00:21,497 dangers of uh everyone doing fandom on Maine is that we've lost those dedicated 934 01:00:21,497 --> 01:00:27,557 spaces where people felt safe to share these things and That that brings with 935 01:00:27,557 --> 01:00:32,327 it some real challenges So one of the things that I sort of push against is 936 01:00:32,597 --> 01:00:36,887 in fandom we have this concept of the fourth wall which is like don't show 937 01:00:37,217 --> 01:00:41,417 the stories that you've written or the art you've created to the actors or 938 01:00:41,417 --> 01:00:45,287 the show runners or whatever because it's not for them Like transformative 939 01:00:45,287 --> 01:00:47,567 fandom happens after they've made their 940 01:00:47,741 --> 01:00:47,831 Brad Frost: Mm. 941 01:00:48,167 --> 01:00:53,777 Sacha: And it's for a community that understands um what it's about and and 942 01:00:53,777 --> 01:00:58,727 its tropes and its um conventions and and whatever But of course the problem is now 943 01:00:58,727 --> 01:01:04,787 fandoms destroyed that fourth wall like everything's happening on TikTok Um HBO 944 01:01:04,787 --> 01:01:09,848 is hiring fan editors to make trailers and actors are constantly being asked 945 01:01:09,848 --> 01:01:13,918 about the fan fiction that's written about them and so on And we can kind of 946 01:01:13,918 --> 01:01:17,788 rail against that as much as we like but I think we've probably lost that battle 947 01:01:17,888 --> 01:01:20,558 Brad Frost: but maybe it's like, there, there's room for, 948 01:01:21,188 --> 01:01:22,358 it's like all of the above. 949 01:01:22,358 --> 01:01:25,658 I know that there's, it's in subway shape or form, it's like, yeah. 950 01:01:25,658 --> 01:01:29,888 It's, it gets fuzzy to the point where you, you will like dilute 951 01:01:30,068 --> 01:01:33,398 the, the, the purity of like the thing or the, or whatever. 952 01:01:33,398 --> 01:01:38,513 But at the same time, like there, there, there's something to pluralism as like 953 01:01:38,513 --> 01:01:42,503 a concept to kind of like lean into a little bit, which is just like, oh, okay. 954 01:01:42,503 --> 01:01:42,773 Like. 955 01:01:42,973 --> 01:01:47,503 We don't need to like necessarily like, agree on these things, that 956 01:01:47,503 --> 01:01:53,507 there's like a lot of room under some, some general umbrellas, I don't 957 01:01:53,507 --> 01:01:57,467 know, uh, maybe that's just I'm not a part of, of the fandom communities, 958 01:01:57,502 --> 01:02:01,402 Sacha: I think I think that's right I think it's just whenever you take 959 01:02:01,402 --> 01:02:06,622 something out of its context and put it up for public scrutiny that 960 01:02:06,767 --> 01:02:06,947 Brad Frost: right? 961 01:02:07,072 --> 01:02:10,870 Sacha: be and I think the problem with fandom is often it's held up as an object 962 01:02:10,870 --> 01:02:12,970 of ridicule or it's held up as a kind of 963 01:02:12,994 --> 01:02:13,354 Brad Frost: Yeah, 964 01:02:13,420 --> 01:02:14,920 Sacha: crazy people are doing you know 965 01:02:15,004 --> 01:02:15,874 Brad Frost: yeah, yeah. 966 01:02:15,874 --> 01:02:16,264 Sure, 967 01:02:16,495 --> 01:02:21,970 Sacha: I I think that's kind of the the fear and that's why fandom spaces were 968 01:02:21,970 --> 01:02:24,130 always retreats or or places where you 969 01:02:24,214 --> 01:02:24,574 Brad Frost: Yeah. 970 01:02:24,619 --> 01:02:24,909 Yeah. 971 01:02:24,914 --> 01:02:25,354 Yeah. 972 01:02:25,570 --> 01:02:28,670 Sacha: and I think those spaces remain important and it's one of the things that 973 01:02:28,670 --> 01:02:33,140 I hate about the social media bands for teens is the internet has always been 974 01:02:33,140 --> 01:02:39,680 a place for Um young people to explore questions of identity of you know whether 975 01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:44,448 that's sexual orientation or gender or even just the things that they like and 976 01:02:44,448 --> 01:02:51,333 are into And um and it's where they can find their communities which may not exist 977 01:02:51,333 --> 01:02:56,763 geographically locally in their school system Uh and the internet's always played 978 01:02:56,763 --> 01:03:03,843 a really important role in that And I think one of the huge dangers of saying 979 01:03:03,843 --> 01:03:09,513 well we just shouldn't let teens on social media is we're taking away that safe space 980 01:03:09,693 --> 01:03:11,793 for exploration and connection and where 981 01:03:11,912 --> 01:03:12,202 Brad Frost: Yeah. 982 01:03:12,543 --> 01:03:17,003 Sacha: good information and where they can find people who you know are are into the 983 01:03:17,003 --> 01:03:21,653 same things or asking the same questions and um that that's a real danger I think 984 01:03:22,112 --> 01:03:25,142 Brad Frost: Yeah, and it's, again, it's that, that knee jerk, like, 985 01:03:25,202 --> 01:03:28,772 just, just turn it off and, and maybe all this will like go away. 986 01:03:28,772 --> 01:03:29,792 And of course it won't. 987 01:03:29,792 --> 01:03:33,413 It's like, and kids are freaking resourceful and like, everyone in my 988 01:03:33,413 --> 01:03:37,013 life, it's like, it's like, oh yeah, everyone will like, find, find the ways. 989 01:03:37,013 --> 01:03:43,023 But, You think about the TikTok dances or you think about just the, the sheer effort 990 01:03:43,053 --> 01:03:49,164 and creative in intellectual and creative and technical skill that goes into sort of 991 01:03:49,164 --> 01:03:52,284 like putting things like videos together. 992 01:03:52,284 --> 01:03:56,424 Like I, I've been slinging a lot of videos and audio, so it is like, oh my God. 993 01:03:56,424 --> 01:03:58,314 Like these are like massive skills. 994 01:03:58,514 --> 01:04:01,634 Back to what you're talking about with like the, the gender divide. 995 01:04:01,634 --> 01:04:05,264 It's like, yeah, there's like this, this, this literacy, this fluency 996 01:04:05,264 --> 01:04:13,004 in these very technical and valuable mediums, and we're like using all of 997 01:04:13,004 --> 01:04:19,244 these things together to explore who we are, but also how we fit into the world. 998 01:04:19,925 --> 01:04:21,065 Sacha: yeah and I think that's one 999 01:04:21,104 --> 01:04:21,494 Brad Frost: Yeah, 1000 01:04:21,694 --> 01:04:25,054 Sacha: of everyone being in the same place is that these young women are 1001 01:04:25,054 --> 01:04:29,644 finally being recognized for what they're doing You know like they should be 1002 01:04:29,864 --> 01:04:30,224 Brad Frost: Yeah. 1003 01:04:30,334 --> 01:04:33,364 Sacha: HBO They're incredibly talented 1004 01:04:33,854 --> 01:04:34,214 Brad Frost: Yeah. 1005 01:04:34,454 --> 01:04:34,874 Yeah. 1006 01:04:35,109 --> 01:04:37,329 Sacha: you know there's there's pluses and minuses 1007 01:04:37,994 --> 01:04:38,834 Brad Frost: Amazing. 1008 01:04:38,864 --> 01:04:42,314 Well, I, I, I mean, I think, I think that this is, this is great. 1009 01:04:42,314 --> 01:04:45,724 I think that, like we've covered, it's like there's, the spirit of 1010 01:04:45,724 --> 01:04:50,699 the web is still here, held in the hearts of the people who have 1011 01:04:50,699 --> 01:04:53,189 been online for, for a long time. 1012 01:04:53,189 --> 01:04:57,229 And there's a, there's a real challenge, but also a real opportunity 1013 01:04:57,229 --> 01:05:02,559 to kind of like reclaim some of that real authentic, you know, 1014 01:05:02,829 --> 01:05:06,969 community driven, like human led. 1015 01:05:07,169 --> 01:05:13,679 Like deliberate, intentional, good, creative spaces and to carve that 1016 01:05:13,679 --> 01:05:16,679 out maybe at scale, but probably not. 1017 01:05:16,879 --> 01:05:21,424 And, and just, just looking for those opportunities to sort of like, not 1018 01:05:21,424 --> 01:05:25,804 necessarily like, yeah, like hit, hit the off switch, but rather like, how 1019 01:05:25,804 --> 01:05:31,774 do we educate, improve and, and kind of show a better way like that, that, 1020 01:05:31,774 --> 01:05:35,964 that really, to me at least, like, kind of like that, that's my own personal 1021 01:05:35,964 --> 01:05:37,434 instincts have kind of gone there. 1022 01:05:37,434 --> 01:05:40,964 It's just like, it's one thing to just kind of, anybody could 1023 01:05:40,964 --> 01:05:42,194 throw out some commentary. 1024 01:05:42,194 --> 01:05:48,044 Like, yeah, this all sucks and there's a lot of validity to that commentary, 1025 01:05:48,044 --> 01:05:51,914 but at the same time it's like, yeah, but like, what are we gonna do about it? 1026 01:05:52,004 --> 01:05:55,484 It sounds like you're doing some really cool stuff, uh, with Lume 1027 01:05:55,834 --> 01:05:57,304 and, and I'm excited to see. 1028 01:05:57,709 --> 01:05:58,489 Where it goes. 1029 01:05:58,489 --> 01:06:02,179 'cause I, I, I, I love how you're describing it and like, kind 1030 01:06:02,179 --> 01:06:06,719 of like reclaiming that, more holistic, more connected, more 1031 01:06:06,719 --> 01:06:11,279 kind of just like human connection with the, the art and the artists. 1032 01:06:11,279 --> 01:06:15,299 I, I think that that's like a really cool place to operate in. 1033 01:06:15,299 --> 01:06:18,119 So I'm excited to see where you go with it. 1034 01:06:18,169 --> 01:06:20,194 Sacha: Yeah More q less feed 1035 01:06:20,576 --> 01:06:21,896 Brad Frost: More q less feed. 1036 01:06:21,896 --> 01:06:22,916 I freaking love it. 1037 01:06:23,168 --> 01:06:23,888 last question. 1038 01:06:23,888 --> 01:06:29,798 The only other sort of structured question in, in the show is, uh, what music do 1039 01:06:29,858 --> 01:06:32,408 you want more people to know about? 1040 01:06:32,558 --> 01:06:35,948 Uh, you mentioned the artists you went and saw last night. 1041 01:06:35,948 --> 01:06:37,328 Remind me her name again. 1042 01:06:37,528 --> 01:06:38,368 Julia Deans. 1043 01:06:38,368 --> 01:06:38,458 Yeah. 1044 01:06:38,658 --> 01:06:45,748 Sacha: yeah what That's such a great question What music Um I think I would 1045 01:06:45,748 --> 01:06:53,341 really like to recommend a New Zealand album it's called WTA Anthem I'll send you 1046 01:06:53,341 --> 01:06:59,958 the link so that you can put it in your show notes But it was an album that was 1047 01:06:59,958 --> 01:07:05,118 recorded here a couple of years ago and it's a whole lot of New Zealand artists 1048 01:07:05,388 --> 01:07:11,688 all recording in Al Maori which is um our indigenous language And a lot of them 1049 01:07:11,688 --> 01:07:17,598 had to learn uh the songs They weren't they're not native speakers Um and it's 1050 01:07:17,598 --> 01:07:23,448 just a really really beautiful album and a beautiful expression of the language 1051 01:07:23,508 --> 01:07:25,998 Um so yeah that'll be my recommendation 1052 01:07:26,038 --> 01:07:26,968 Brad Frost: that's amazing. 1053 01:07:26,998 --> 01:07:27,898 That's amazing. 1054 01:07:27,898 --> 01:07:30,808 Yeah, I, I'm very curious, just your description of, it's 1055 01:07:30,808 --> 01:07:34,648 very, very intriguing, so I'm gonna have to give it a listen. 1056 01:07:34,648 --> 01:07:38,368 So, yeah, definitely, uh, link that up here and we'll make sure to, to get it 1057 01:07:38,368 --> 01:07:42,538 out there and putting, putting a playlist together of, of all of the stuff too. 1058 01:07:42,538 --> 01:07:48,134 So, the real last question is like, where could people, go to find you, support you? 1059 01:07:48,164 --> 01:07:50,474 Where, where do you wanna point people, direct people, 1060 01:07:50,504 --> 01:07:52,424 uh, to where are you online? 1061 01:07:53,165 --> 01:07:58,115 Sacha: Just come to my my website Sacha judd.com and you can sign up 1062 01:07:58,115 --> 01:08:02,135 for my newsletter there which is called What We Love Matters It's free 1063 01:08:02,135 --> 01:08:07,445 and every week you'll get a little essay from me about pop culture Harry 1064 01:08:07,445 --> 01:08:13,685 Styles the internet space and it always finishes with a photo from my 1065 01:08:13,685 --> 01:08:18,515 giant Lego city which I hope brings a little bit of joy to people's lives 1066 01:08:19,101 --> 01:08:19,881 Brad Frost: Beautiful. 1067 01:08:19,971 --> 01:08:20,691 Beautiful. 1068 01:08:21,141 --> 01:08:22,071 Uh, amazing. 1069 01:08:22,071 --> 01:08:25,011 Well, thank you Sacha so much for, for being on the show. 1070 01:08:25,011 --> 01:08:29,001 And, uh, hopefully, uh, I'll, I'll meet up with you and we'll get 1071 01:08:29,001 --> 01:08:33,321 some, uh, Uber Eats, uh, Thai food, uh, whenever I come visit you. 1072 01:08:33,521 --> 01:08:33,881 Sacha: Thank 1073 01:08:34,055 --> 01:08:34,775 Brad Frost: All right. 1074 01:08:34,835 --> 01:08:35,885 Thanks very much.