Don't cram 20 people in Zoom.
Fluorescent light in the office all day long.
You know, you probably are going to work from home.
Hello, hello, hello everyone.
We've got a special episode coming in of No Office Podcast.
Special impromptu, you know, live episode with my good friend Augusto Pinaud.
Hey Augusto!
Hello sir, how are you today?
So, Rafał is not here.
I just cancelled him out and he's on vacation
on vacation, so he doesn't know that we're recording a podcast. We went rogue.
That's what I call go and hack the system.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
So he changed the password. Don't ask him why.
Yeah, the thing is, we have all these passwords in one password, so I have access to everything.
Just the question is if I know how these things work.
But I think I do. So we got it covered.
And as you might know, and you might have read on my blog, I met for the first time in my life
in person, Augusto, a few months back. We've been friends for more than a decade now,
but we've been always online friends and we first saw each other in the States a few months ago.
So it was fantastic. It was a really fun trip. Yes. Augusto is also the one that gave me the
gift of this beautiful Lego logo that you can see in the background of my recording.
And that's gloriously right now displayed in my home office as it should. As I always
tell people it's a very serious business advice, put Legos on the wall.
This is really important in your home office.
And we decided, Augusto, why did we decide to do this Rogue episode?
This Rogue episode is an opportunity to geek out about the Vision Pro.
Michael and I, some decades ago now, apparently,
began playing with this little device who nobody has faith on, called the iPad.
When the iPad came out, people were like, "I don't know. That's a consumption device. I don't think
it's going to go anywhere." And we both discover playing full-time, working full-time, and doing
everything full-time on that device. To this day, my main device is still an iPad. The only thing
is which one I grab, because I have now more than one. Fully engaged that what is called
multi-pad lifestyle or whatever it's called.
So depending on what I'm going to do,
I grab one or I grab another one.
So with Apple announcement of the Vision Pro,
there were a couple of things that came to my mind.
One is see how Apple has mastered the process
of launching new categories.
And they did a lot of play with the Apple Watch.
You know, if people remember the first Apple Watch
was this expensive toy, took them a couple of generations
to really make that a health device
or a health center device
and really put it in the hands of most people.
I think it was generation three
what really begin to hit most people who rest.
So with this new device, the Vision Pro,
I've been laughing and sending messages to Michael
as, "No, this remind me of something.
what it reminds me because it was exactly how I remember
when the iPad was launched.
Oh, nobody's going to use this.
Oh, this is a consumption device.
This is just going to be for play.
As the guys who co-wrote the first iPad book,
the first, the iPad only book,
I decided I wanted to really sit and geek out about this
and really share a little bit of our experience,
what it was to be iPad only at that time.
And with that experience now,
what we guess is going to be the future of this platform.
- Yeah, exactly.
So actually when I was listening this week to ATP FM,
so Accidental Tech Podcast,
they were discussing that as well,
like if the Vision Pro headset,
if it can be a serious work device.
And they said, actually Casey said that if he would be the person
who could get stuff done on the iPad,
he could imagine himself getting stuff done on the Vision Pro.
That's why your assumption is pretty correct.
It's a good starting point.
I think we were the pioneers and people don't believe still us
that in our home offices, the Macs, we have the Macs,
but the Macs are our background devices.
They are not our main devices.
If I want to get work done, I have my iPad here,
but then everything else, like the canvas on the 4K screen
and all that stuff on the MacBook Air,
they're just additional things that help me get my work done,
but they're just additional things.
The main thing is the iPad.
All my main workflow is on the iPad.
And that's why I think people like us
would very quickly get used to working on the Vision Pro,
because what they have revealed with the Vision Pro
and what the reviewers who have, I mean, not reviewers,
but people who have had the experience
of testing the Vision Pro,
what they said is that both of these 4K displays
that you have in front of your eyes,
they're so sharp that they're full retina.
So it's like you see everything.
You see the text, everything is crystal clear.
So you could imagine yourself
like just having just this device
and just putting your whole computing life in front of you,
like, you know, and just having these windows
in different places completely in front of you.
So I think, yeah, people like us who have been using,
you know, iOS devices, especially iPads for work
could just get started right away.
- Yeah, it was funny on the pre-show
before we started recording the show,
I opened on my iPad and Mike was like,
"Where is the microphone?"
Oh yeah, yeah, it's true, we're recording,
so I needed to change to the Mac.
Even the Mac in my office may even move
from where it is currently,
based on what I've been reading on iOS 17,
that I will be able to connect this microphone to the iPad
and work it as a microphone.
And if that work as advertised,
this Mac will then go to the closet
because I will just put a second iPad on the front
and don't need to touch the iPad anymore.
The iPad will, the Mac will be just the thing
that I use to put the movies for the kids.
(laughs)
So it goes to the first.
- For me, as I explained on my blog,
the whole setup with the MacBook Air
and the screen and the microphone,
it's all just there so I can be really instantly productive.
So if I need to have like an instantly good recording
quickly, I can just switch to that
while having my iPad still free to be here
already as my device. Okay, so let's talk about the Apple Vision Pro, this very
cheap three and a half thousand dollar device.
Okay, I'm going to start there. I understand it's not, no, it is not a cheap
device. But wait a minute. If I will go to my office, you have been in my office,
and now I can say that. Okay. Yes, I have more screens that I'm going to publicly
recognize in my office. Okay. They are in front of me here.
There is six and there is three on my left. So that's nine screens.
If you get to replace all those nine screens at one time,
that's way more expensive than that toy. Okay. That let me start there.
So yes, it is not a cheap computing device.
True. But I don't think it was that outrageous.
If you can have that amount of screens at that resolution in a virtual world, that's worth it.
Because, for example, we are traveling for a vacation. And if I travel for vacation,
I'm not taking every machine, almost every machine. But if I'm traveling by car,
every machine is coming. The desk is coming. If I travel by plane, I can't. But by car,
everything is coming, including the desk. My desk is a pole.
I know you have put pictures in the nose, which is basically a pole.
So I can take it apart, put it in a bag in the car.
I mean, the car can take anything.
So that's true. Exactly.
The thing is, if I'm traveling, OK, now I can take my office anywhere.
That again, it is very exciting for me.
Yeah. And there is a second element.
there is a lot to know that we don't know yet
that we will learn as time progress.
Actually, one of the things I would love to be more
and understand much more is development.
So I can pay whatever is the money
for to get access to the development and the code
and the programming on the background to learn more.
Because one of the things that we are forgetting
is the industries that are going to be formed
because of this.
And Apple is doing something very brilliantly.
They're giving access to developers nine months early.
When you think on the iPad, okay?
And if we talk specifically about Nozbe,
when the iPad was launched, Nozbe was significantly impacted.
I'm not saying in a bad way,
I'm saying impacted in how things were
because before that iPad, there was so little touchscreens.
Yes, you have the tablet PC,
but that was not really on a strong market.
The finger didn't matter as much.
When that came, I remembered it,
the beginning of the changes of Nespi
to be a much more universal platform
that now you can be really a standard
because you were moving into a different things.
But also let's remember how many things
on the iPad were created by developers.
- Yeah, of course. - Not by Apple.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And in that case, they have to pre-announce it
to be able to also see what people can come up with
because they came up with the basics.
So let's talk about the basics.
So the coolest thing, as you said,
is you can have all of your screens in one device.
So basically you can put Windows anywhere you want
in your augmented reality.
Like, so anywhere.
So this moment, like when you just get out of the car,
you know, go to the hotel, put on this thing,
and you have your instantly your office,
like just the same way.
So this is brilliant.
Like this, especially, I think for people
who are not only working from home,
but actually working from different places
and switching places,
for them to be instantly productive in any environment,
like everywhere, like even waiting for the freaking plane.
Like when they are like waiting for the plane,
they can sit down and just put this thing on
and just create their environment
and just continue work
until they are being called to proceed to the gate.
So in that sense, it's really cool.
Like it's really, really cool.
And they are still aware of their surroundings,
which is just amazing.
'Cause I remember I tried some of these VR headsets
and the first thing is that you are completely blocked out.
You're completely in a different place.
And here you're not.
you're kind of in the place, but not in the place.
So I think it's brilliant the way they did it.
That would be, I think, our first argument,
and that you can be instantly productive from anywhere
using this device.
Of course, now we can get to the nitty gritty of the battery
and all that stuff, but let's assume this is not an issue.
In that sense, you have your work set up anywhere,
which is great, which I think is fantastic.
And the whole headset is a computer already.
It's an M2 computer, so it's already a very powerful,
pretty powerful computer for any kind of office work.
Like it's not a slouch.
In that sense, you have a pretty powerful,
I mean, my MacBook Air here that powers this whole thing
is M1, so we have the M2 computer
with all these sensors and stuff.
So in that sense, you take all of your screens,
basically entire computer setup with you,
anywhere you want to go.
- Exactly, that is the question.
Where do you want to go?
Because I remember when we wrote the iPad only,
one of the things that I remember you discussing extensively
was how the iPad didn't limit you,
but change the order in which you need to do things.
And I specifically remember you talking about email attachments.
And you said, misquoting probably, but it's something on the lines of in a
computer, you start with the email and then attach the file and then send it.
And what that produced is that you many times forgot the email.
Oh, yes.
On the iPad, you start with the attachment and then go to the communication.
Yeah.
The whole paradigm shift for me working from the iPad was the fact, as Augusto
said, you share the document.
So by sharing document, you chose the means to share it.
So for example, via email, but on the desktop, very often, like so many times,
people would write the email, yeah, and then everything is in attachment and it
was just send it and they're like, oh, I forgot about the attachment.
Like, cause they would first start with the email message and then go back to
the attachment on the iPad.
We would start with actually what we want to send.
I think that's a paradigm shift that we're going to see.
I agree with you.
I have tried a couple of VR for gaming,
and I even tried one for work
with the idea of putting the screen on the iPad
in a larger perspective.
And it was cool. Just it was.
I mean, it was very amazing to see that thing in that massive.
But it didn't-- I can't touch type.
So, OK, the typing wasn't an issue,
but I couldn't interact with things.
is what I think this bring an incredible advantage
on a game changing is the interaction part.
You know, with most of the glasses that I see on the market
there is the interaction is still happen
on the keyboard and the mouse.
So if I'm not seeing on the keyboard on the mouse
that limits my interaction.
If I'm not touching my screen, that limits my interaction.
Here, it seems like that problem is away.
So now I'm really interacting in the air.
The other thing is, again, it seems that
what work on the iPad most likely will work on this device.
What work on your phone will be.
And that give, again, something that it's very powerful.
When people ask me, why do you use
or why your office work environment
is on an Apple ecosystem?
I say, because I can grab any device in my office
and it's completely transparent.
I may not use the MacBook, but I can grab this MacBook
and open the last document I was working in a click.
I don't need to try to figure it out what that thing is.
I can grab an iPad, I can grab my phone.
There is a massive productivity factor in there
where I don't need to, I can grab any device
and continue exactly where I was.
Now envision exactly what you were describing.
You get to your hotel, you get your goggles,
you start working, okay, shut off the thing,
go for dinner with your iPad under your arm.
And the person you were going to meet for dinner
is not there now, you open the iPad
and continue exactly where you were.
There is a massive power of that.
Not only that, we are going to go to a hybrid world,
regardless of what people think and articles said,
there is not coming back to the office.
We make, there are certain jobs
that may require you to go more often,
but most people are not going back to the office.
Most people will be--
- Yeah, I mean, good luck to all the bosses
that will try to force people to go to the office.
These people will move on to different companies,
so eventually they will all give up.
- They will give up.
Now, imagine working in that kind of environment.
The reason I have so many screens is that,
If I can get rid of all these screens
and just have that and remove everything from my office
and have a much even cleaner office,
again, for my perspective, that's totally worth it.
The other thing that I was particularly excited about it
is how Apple positioned this.
My concern, okay, in this worst ever secret kept by Apple
was that they tried to go to the app, to the game market.
And as soon as they go to the game market,
this device, for me, is dead on arrival.
But they went from the productivity.
Right now, the only real serious competitor
Apple may have is Samsung,
because it's the only one who has really the tools
to integrate their Samsung devices into a device like that.
And they have good copiers. They copy very quickly.
- Correct, and they copy very quick.
As soon as they grab their hands in nine months,
the Samsung device is coming.
And Samsung has been working very, very, very hard
in to create that ecosystem.
Okay, so they have been for a couple of years now
copying the Apple Playbook.
That said, that gives them two years ahead of the game.
And for Samsung to really compete,
they need to get Google on board.
So it is going to be challenging
from the competition perspective.
But from the productivity perspective,
the fact that I can get there with that,
that I can minimize all that
as soon as somebody walks into my office
and even if I don't take them out, I can move.
I can minimize everything and walk
and grab a cup of coffee.
Okay. - And not spill it.
- And not spill it, right.
That's going to make for a very powerful
productivity environment.
Is every application going to work as well in the PC?
You know, somebody was sharing with me,
well, I spend so much time in Excel that is useless.
This device is useless for me.
Yeah, you are always going to find the people
who need that specific piece of software,
but Apple has always been clear.
They don't need to conquer everyone.
They need to fit a very specific niche.
From a developer perspective,
they have, you can now develop in the iPad.
I don't see reasons why you're not going
to be able to develop there.
From a designer perspective, you even now have Final Pro.
Do you, I'm not a video guy,
I'm completely incompetent about it,
but I'm going to recognize the idea of turn on something
like the Video Pro editing for Apple on a massive screen, all virtually.
It is very exciting, even if you don't do video.
Yeah. Yeah. And think about that.
So this vision, again, going back to this idea that we will be hybrid.
So people will be traveling between office and home.
And let's say the bosses finally will budge and then we'll let people have the flexibility,
which we always say that people need the flexibility to be able to decide
which day they want to go to the office, which day they choose to stay at home.
Again, with this device, they can just travel with this device,
go to the office and have the same setup.
So the setup hasn't changed, like they have the same device.
And this is what I mean, you know, my wife does that already.
I think your wife does the same thing.
My wife has her laptop, which is her laptop desktop,
because she basically hot desks the laptop.
At home, she has a dedicated external screen and all that stuff,
and she connects it there.
And at work, she has the same thing.
She has external screens, connects it there with the same device.
With this, it's even better,
because you have everything set up.
So you just put it on, and it just works.
Of course, now the question is,
is this device comfortable enough to be wearing hours a day?
I don't know.
People, of course, have just tried that,
and I mean, have tried for like 30 minutes and they were blown away, whatever.
I don't know how good of a comfortable of a feel it gives
to be able to actually use it for hours in a day.
But if it's comfortable, then of course, you have really your computing set up there.
Let's get back to what we wrote in the iPad-only book.
One of the reasons we started using the iPad was because it was freaking fun.
because you could touch email, you could touch things, you could just move things around.
For many people, it wasn't really productive. It was very optimal because you couldn't really
like have short keys and things and then shortcuts and all that stuff. I mean, we loved the iPad
before there were Siri shortcuts on that, before there was workflow. And we still loved it because
like this tactile thing of being able to touch things, move things around, it was just so much
joy, the fact that we could turn the iPad around, we could have the iPad in portrait mode and then
move it in landscape mode and then move it to the portrait mode and back, depending on how you
wanted to use it. So in that sense, it was just so much fun. And I think it's kind of similar fun
for this device because they said that first of all, you use the device with your eye tracking.
So basically you look at things and it just knows what you're looking at,
which is spooky and incredible and magical.
And on the other hand, you can just pinch and use the fingers,
or you can basically just touch these things,
and then they know where you touch.
So I think it could be also a pretty fun device to use.
I agree with you. It is going to be very fun, or it seems to be very fun.
And from the beginning, it seems that it's starting with a very difference from the iPad.
Okay, the first iPad that I loved dearly was very underpowered.
Yeah.
Right. And it was what it was. Okay. And for me, it was still a benefit. I think I got my second
iPad came when the iPad mini, that's your fault. It's on the book, it's still your fault.
- Yeah, I know.
I am to blame, everybody knows that.
- You are to blame.
That's when I got the second iPad,
or the two iPads at the same time,
and I never looked back to that, okay?
With this device, one of the main difference is,
as you were mentioning early, it is not underpowered.
- Yeah.
- I mean, it will have the same chipset as a MacBook,
the same chipset as my iPad.
So out of the box, as it's coming right now,
I will be able to do most of what I can do on the iPad,
assuming developers have the opportunity
to release the software for that.
And that, it's incredible.
It is incredible to think that.
And when I think on, when I got the iPad,
I got the iPad, I was heavily traveling for work.
That will have been, again, a no-brainer to get it.
As it was, I remember when I got the first tablet PC.
Okay, that's many, many moons back.
- Yeah. - Okay.
Why I got the tablet PC?
The tablet PC wasn't cheap, it was a very expensive tool,
but at the time-- - Yeah, I remember.
- It was a fantastic thing for what I was doing.
I was selling business intelligence,
I was not yet full into coaching and productivity,
and the ability to show a diagram
and write into diagram for the client, okay?
Bring me more than enough sales to justify this toy.
- Exactly. - Okay?
Now, is this toy justifiable?
Well, the first question for me will be,
will how creepy will be, you know,
because right now we are in the camera, okay?
How creepy will be that artificial intelligence thing
that they're going to create of me
and how much that will really be useful
for this kind of things.
And if the answer is not, it's fine.
I will take it up and do it in the iPad.
I'm okay with that.
That said, I'm going to bring something that works
maybe for me, but it works for me.
Imagine now for a second for you, maybe other things,
go to writing mode, okay?
Where I can put that thing, okay?
And write mode on this massive screen
where I'm sure I will be able to flip the way I want
or at least make it thin enough
so it looks like it is portrait instead of landscape
and be able to write.
There are so many things that that interaction
for me is the next step on the iPad.
And people ask me often,
I don't understand why the iPad and not get the MacBook
and use the MacBook as your primary machine.
And I have always said, it's a touchscreen.
And I remember a discussion you and I had
where I was complaining about the MacBook
not being touchscreen, it says too thin.
The screen on the back is too thin for that.
And I get it.
I intellectually understand that I still want
the larger screen and I want a touchscreen.
Now that's exactly what I'm going to get.
I will get my headset,
assuming my prescription work, hopefully.
And then I will get now a massive screen that I will be able to interact.
I think, like any big change, do this machine is for everyone?
No.
Do this machine have the potential to revolutionize as we understand computers?
Oh yeah.
I have no doubt in that.
So let's make a sponsor break in our podcast,
and then we'll talk about the revolution that it might bring.
So as you know, our sponsor of our podcast is, of course, Nozbe.
I am the CEO of Nozbe.
Augusto is one of our Nozbe experts.
And Nozbe is a tool, is an app that helps small business
owners and their teams get their personal life
and professional life organized in one very simple app.
And this is what we do.
We've been doing this for the last 16 years.
And especially now, in this podcast, I would like to advertise that
we decided to raise the prices and harmonize the prices between Nozbe Personal and Nozbe Teams.
I mean, the old Nozbe Teams now, called the new Nozbe.
And because of that, from July 1st, there will be new pricing.
And that's why in June, now, when you're listening to this,
you can still get your Nozbe, the one that you choose, at your price.
And you can extend for a year or even a few years if you like it so much,
or if you're like us and you're thinking long term.
This way you can secure your pricing for now,
but then the next renewal will be already at the new pricing.
We had to do it for economic reasons, for many reasons,
but also this new pricing will also give us an option
to really even more aggressively better iterate on the product.
and that's why we had to do it.
So that's why we are giving heads up to our current customers
that they can still extend with their pricing
because we don't want to make this change too fast on our good customers.
And so far so good, Augusto.
We are halfway through June and hundreds,
really hundreds of customers have decided to just vote with their wallet
and just give us the money.
There was a very cool email from one of the customers
saying that this can't be true. I'm sure I was paying more for Nozbe each year.
But then I checked my invoice and my invoice from 2018 was the same as from this year.
So I was like, "Okay, I'm going to pay years in advance. Thank you guys for the heads up."
So yeah, we are completely sincere and transparent, as you know, Augusto, about this.
And believe me, as a CEO, it was a hard decision to raise the prices and, anyway,
Anyway, tinker with the prices, because I know how diverse of a topic this is.
But we have to do it. And so far, so good. Our customers are great.
And that's why it gets me even more excited about the future.
And we have lots of cool things for Nozbe and the pipeline for the rest of the year.
So stay tuned.
Now, back to the show. Vision Pro. Will this revolutionize computing?
We open our iPad-only book with a quote.
- By the way, iPad-only book at ipadonly.com,
you can actually read it for free.
You can get it on Amazon and all that stuff,
but you can also read it for free completely online.
So we're not trying to sell you the book.
The book is available for free if you want to.
If you could buy it on Amazon and help us out, great.
But you can get it, you can read it for free.
- The book is free, and I will say that even that,
Obviously, this is a book that was published in 2013.
Exactly.
So 10 years ago, man.
Don't look at the applications, please.
Don't look at the application list.
Some of them don't even exist.
They have changed.
But the other part, it works.
And the late Steve Jobs on the D8 conference
says PCs are going to be like trucks.
And that's what he was saying about the tablet,
about the PCs and, you know, in comparison with the tablets.
And there is no doubt that the iPad changed the market.
OK, and for the people who told me, well, I
and there is people who told me I don't know about that.
I say, well, you know, where is the clones of the Newton?
OK, the Newton was an Apple product.
OK, that was a failure before Steve Jobs rejoined Apple.
And you don't hear the Newtons.
You don't hear the Newton's never had clones.
The iPad instead,
Samsung has their own version,
Google has their own version,
Microsoft has their own version,
everybody has their own version.
>> Yeah.
>> Why? That is the reason.
As I was saying at the beginning of the show,
I think we are going to see their clone version of this.
The question will be,
how much can you really interact with the rest?
How much can you really integrate your PC?
How much can you really integrate your Chromebooks
and into these other devices?
We know on the Apple Vision Pro,
it will integrate your phone,
it will integrate your tablet,
it will integrate iCloud,
it will integrate your Mac.
So if you are an Apple guy, everything will be integrated in this device.
Yeah, I mean, you can argue that if you're an Apple guy,
the Vision Pro will work for you out of the box.
So they also announced that most of the apps will be available on day one.
So even Nozbe, we will not have to do much to be able to be compatible with Vision Pro
on day one.
Of course, we can then figure out additional things that we can do,
But the basic way of having a window of Nozbe anywhere within Division Pro,
no problem, it's going to be available.
So they have this whole advantage of having the iCloud,
the storage, having all the data, everything tailored to you.
So basically, it's like another iOS device.
Again, in our book, we were discussing this,
that having your iPhone and your iPad,
you basically have two computers with you at all times.
All times.
this time you will have three computers with you, basically, or two.
So the iPhone and the Vision Pro, or maybe the iPad as well.
Anyway, having all these devices, you're basically set up.
So in that sense, again, it's a big advantage for Apple
that they can launch with the whole ecosystem
and with the whole legacy that they've built,
which just works perfectly for this product.
But again, the question is, will then the application evolve
to be more three-dimensional, more augmented reality, and so on.
I think so. I mean, judging by the popularity of AI right now,
this will be the future.
I will be... I have been in IT, or very close to IT,
for more than 20 years.
And I remember when the iPhone came out,
and I remember my friends of IT, because I have a lot of them,
and a lot of what I do in productivity has tied with IT.
And I remember, oh, we're not going to allow
to have iPhones in our organization.
(Luke laughs)
And I remember having those conversations
and telling to these IT people and say,
so how you're going to do when the CEO send the email
and say he wants an iPhone?
We will tell him that the BlackBerry is the device to have.
Okay?
We all know in 2023 how those emails went.
Yeah, how this all went down.
- The same thing with the iPad.
I have now seen more and more executive,
even mid-level executive who are iPad only,
or who have their laptops as you described,
or basically desktops, okay?
Their hardware in their office when they get to the office
and they travel with the iPad everywhere.
This device, because of the price,
obviously it's not yet mainstream.
It's really targeted for...
- No, this is like, you know, first version
and early adopters, yeah.
- Now, that market, okay, high level executive,
okay, mid-level executive who travels often.
What is a big problem these people have?
They get in a plane, okay, they are short of space,
that's part of being on a plane.
I don't care if you are in first class, okay.
Now you move from your massive desk at office, okay,
to this tiny laptop, okay,
where you may or may not be very comfortable.
And now you have the problem of who is on my side,
because the information in many of these laptops
is very confidential.
- And that's a big also security concern.
Like you wanna work on this very important spreadsheet.
Let's say me again, you know,
having the spreadsheet of the new Nozbe pricing, you know,
I'm just working on it right there.
And there are people who can very easily peek
on what I'm doing.
With the Vision Pro, they cannot peek.
They--
- They cannot peek.
- They just see this guy with these glasses and that's it.
- Not only that, you don't know if I am working,
if I am playing, I will let you make that decision, okay?
As a person who is looking at me.
But from the privacy concern,
that make this device really, really attractive
to that market.
Because I see them, okay, reading the PDF in the iPads,
okay, all this, but they are reading
where anybody surrounding can also see, okay.
Now, when you can get this device,
do your marks onto your PDF, work with your spreadsheet,
work with your email with all confidence, okay,
where you're going to be very comfortable
in a virtual environment,
looking at your spreadsheets, looking at your graphs,
looking at your PDF, $3,000 is not expensive for that market.
That's true. That's true.
Yeah, I mean, completely.
I remember, we always have this discussion right now.
We just launched a new website for lawyers that use Nozbe,
nozbe.com/lawyers, then you can see all the information.
But what I'm saying is,
lawyers, they are all about confidentiality.
And I'm always having this argument with them because I'm like,
"So you're lawyers, and you are saying that you need to have your super secret NDAs
sent securely, and then you attach them to an email.
How is this secure?"
That's why I was convincing them to use Nozbe, where in Nozbe,
when they attach an attachment, it automatically is encrypted.
So it's not only encrypted in transit, but also on our servers.
So even if a hacker would gain access to our files, they would see gibberish.
So it's really secure.
And this is next level.
You're completely isolated.
You're basically in your virtual home office.
Nobody can see what you're looking at.
They can see this weird person with these goggles.
And you can be completely reviewing all these NDAs, no problem.
Like you're completely off the hook.
Now, that, just that little...
Let's forget about anything else in the world.
That makes enough sales for Apple to keep this line alive forever.
And again, this has not done yet what I think is the biggest strength for Apple.
People will complain, but the reality is, if we go back in the history,
Apple has done more for developers than any other corporation.
And you may disagree with me or not. I don't know.
OK, but I think is the Apple store perfect?
No, there is not. There is nothing perfect. OK.
I know. There is not perfect.
I agree. It's not.
But we need to remember where we were before that, where we were before.
OK. And it was a problem for end user.
And it was a problem for developers to build that initial trust.
Okay. Again, I'm not saying it's perfect,
but Apple really helped many developers to launch.
Yeah, okay, I know Nozbe, and I've been working with Nozbe for so many years.
I may not need the Apple Store anymore,
but there is still a lot of software that I play and that I test
that I will not buy unless it's through a store, because I don't know.
Yeah, of course. I mean, there is still this argument that, you know, whenever we are featured
somewhere as Nozbe, then we get a spike of sales and all that stuff. So yeah, of course, it makes
sense. No, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's the strength. Again, the whole ecosystem is already
built. So they don't have to build it. They have the back, they have the, what we in IT call the
back end. They have it. It's there. As we said, the file system, everything.
And now it comes the fun part,
because the thing is Apple, and again,
Apple did this with the phone,
Apple did this better on the iPad,
Apple did this incredibly well with the watch.
And now they have all those 20,
or 10 plus years of experience
to dump it into this product.
And what I'm more excited about it is not the device
and what Apple is going to do,
is what I have not envisioned yet.
What these developers are going to come into change,
because you touch with this device
or Apple touch with this device, very key things.
Okay, privacy, privacy is a big thing.
Even if you decide to watch a movie,
I don't want anybody to know, you know,
that I'm watching, I don't know,
Fast and the Furious, okay, very loud.
- I mean, man, it's even worse.
Like, so the other day I was on the plane with my wife
and we were watching a TV series together.
And then we wanted to watch one of the episodes
of this controversial TV series called "Bridgerton."
And over there, there are some kind of, let's say,
pretty revealing scenes sometimes.
- Correct.
- So this is not something I wanna watch
and having people around me see that I'm watching that.
Like it's like, at some point it just looks
like I'm watching porn, you know, like on the plane,
which wasn't true, but you know, there was the...
- You may have been admired,
you were watching, playing in the porn with your wife.
People will give you credit for that.
- Right, yeah, it's a spousal bonding moment right there.
But yeah, but that's the thing.
Again, you can watch things on a big virtual screen,
again, in the privacy of your own eyes.
- That privacy, again, from my perspective,
it's a fantastic selling point,
and is a selling point to the market who have the money to pay the product right now.
I mean, completely. The thing is that they don't have to sell so many of the first version.
They can sell only a few, but they will see quite a lot of few things.
But these few things, the first one will be enough to validate the product,
to see where people take it, to see where developers take it, and then to see what's more.
Because in every product, there comes a point you have to ship it to people
so to really see what they are going to do with it.
And we had the same thing when we launched in 2020,
in the middle of the pandemic, we launched the Nozbe Teams,
which now is the new Nozbe.
But we launched it because we couldn't anymore just have it for ourselves.
We wanted to share it with our customers, see where they will take it.
take it. And now we are basically busy, like this year, a few years after launch,
we are basically building more features just for our customers, features that we
would never use or we won't use that much, but our customers need them,
but they're completely coherent with the product. And this is the same thing.
Apple has envisioned the first thing, what they want to do with this,
but they have made this array of sensors, cameras and all that stuff.
and they want to see what people will do with it.
And I think, I mean, I totally share your belief that
they will have enough people buying that stuff to see where it will go.
Apple has, again, a massive advantage.
From that privacy perspective,
any executive who uses an iPhone already knows how to use this device.
-Yeah, again. -Okay?
It is not, again, when Apple came with the iPhone,
Okay, you need to sell a new platform and it took them a little bit.
This device just, again, forget everything else.
Forget everything cool thing that you can think right now.
From a people in a certain positions and roles and careers
where you handle documentation that should be confidential.
This device is a no-brainer.
Yeah.
It's a mistake not to get it.
It's exactly the opposite.
It's a mistake.
And now from the productivity perspective,
one of the things that I discussed in personal productivity
is personal productivity by definition is personal.
And when as a coach and as an expert on Nozbe,
I said, there is a difference.
Okay, when you want to implement Nozbe,
you need to make one decision first.
Is this personal productivity
or this is organizational productivity?
Are you going to go into your organization?
And if you are going to go into your organization,
you need to understand there is a big difference.
You are putting productivity on the open.
Productivity traditionally, it's not.
And I have made this joke now for many years
is you don't believe me?
well, show me your system, okay?
And I know no one, no one who is very strong
on the productivity world, coaches, teachers, and users,
okay, who when I say that, okay, don't cringe.
I don't know anyone.
Hey, sorry, if you're filming right now,
share your personal productivity system on a screen.
I cringe.
My company knows me, oh, no problem, now we can share.
- Yeah.
But there is a difference.
Now, again, you coming back to the privacy.
Imagine for a moment, open a vision board,
open a mind map, okay?
Open a free form application.
Hey, the free form application already exists
and I know you're a heavy user of that.
- Yes.
- Imagine a free form, not on a 12 inch, in a 90 inch.
- Yeah, exactly.
On a freaking big inch.
So that part is, if Apple play that confidential side,
again, it's nothing necessarily
that you are hiding anything.
Hey, my wife can come into my computer.
She knows the password.
There is no secret between us.
But if she comes right now and open my Nustbe,
I will be uncomfortable, okay?
There is nothing on that.
- But think about that also in the office environment.
So if people start using that in the office environment, it's the same thing.
Now the managers cannot do what they love, cannot perform what they truly appreciate,
and it's managing by walking around.
Because when they walk around, they just see people with goggles.
So they have no clue what they're doing.
They can be browsing Facebook for all I know.
So it's again the question of really changing the mindset
of observing what people have on their screens
to really setting them trust
and setting them tasks and projects to do
and just trusting that they will get them done.
And that's where this will bring, again, a massive change
because those elements are too big to be ignored.
Again, I'm talking about first generation product.
We're talking about the first two or three years of this product.
Exactly.
By then, developers will really define where this product is going as they did on the iPad,
as they did on the watch. At least that's my opinion. But the initial characteristics that
Apple showed already are set to be a massive success at that level. And at that level,
Again, executive people who ask highly confidential information,
$3,500, it's not a problem.
Exactly. It's like when...
Sorry, but again, back to what I said about Nozbe raising prices and all that stuff.
So we had, you know, there were some customers who did complain,
and I totally understand that.
But one of my arguments that actually won many of these, you know, people over was,
Guys, even after the raises, Nozbe is one of the few productivity apps that is below $10 per user per month.
Everything else is more expensive.
Ah, right.
So it was kind of...
But it's the same thing, you know, you look for bank for the buck.
So $10 per month for Nozbe or less is nothing compared to hours you're going to save and the hours you bill for hundreds of dollars.
So that's one thing.
And the same thing here, $3,500 for this device,
having the privacy, not being concerned about many things,
is just priceless.
That's completely true.
So Augusto, we have to wrap it up
because we're getting to an hour,
so we should wrap it up.
Yes, yes, like we always do.
So first of all, before we wrap up,
I would like to appreciate that we both have red shirts
for some reason.
I don't know how we got it in sync,
but this is how we did.
We didn't talk about attire before this recording, so heads up for that.
Second thing, I think something that I shared with you when we saw each other,
that you liked, that I had airtags on my children
when we were traveling in New York, especially New York City.
You want to have airtags on your children because you can lose them very quickly.
- I saw an FML one. - Exactly.
So I want to just give you a heads up.
In WWDC, they announced that iOS 17, you will be able to share AirTags
with your wife and stuff. So you will be able to really share the AirTag location,
which for a family is fantastic, because this way, the AirTags become family AirTags.
So not only you, but the rest of the family members, and also people you invite,
can really see the location of this particular device, which is super useful.
So this is coming. Any final thoughts about the Vision Pro?
I am very excited about it.
Again, because when you have a hammer in your mind,
everything looks like a nail.
That's what they said.
So I've been looking at the productivity perspective of this
and how this device, based on the information we have,
it's really going to change that.
And honestly, I'm very, very excited about it.
And not only for the Vision Pro,
I'm a big believer on competition.
I live on an Apple ecosystem,
but I love when Samsung and Google
comes with high-end devices,
because the better their devices,
the better they will push Apple and vice versa.
- Yes.
- So I hope that Samsung, I don't have hope.
Is Samsung on Google?
I don't have hope in Microsoft, sadly,
but I hope that Samsung or Google decide
to really push for their version of these things.
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
I think I will end also with a quote from Max Stories,
an article from Federico Vittici, who wrote that he saw...
I mean, he had the demo.
I envy him that he had the demo of the device.
And he said that he saw the future and was so sad to be back in the past.
So I completely would like to share his enthusiasm for that device, that this is the future.
And again, people like us who like to embrace the future, who like to embrace the unknown,
the new ecosystems, the new devices, this is a great time to be alive.
Thanks everyone for listening. It was Augusto Pinard and Michael Sliwinski.
Thank you so much and see you in the next one.
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