1
00:00:00,668 --> 00:00:02,990
Three, two, one.

2
00:00:03,631 --> 00:00:07,195
Greetings and welcome to the Vernon
Richard show.

3
00:00:07,195 --> 00:00:11,399
This is episode one or maybe episode zero
of our new pod.

4
00:00:11,399 --> 00:00:17,485
And please note that was Vernon Richard
without the S because I'm one of the

5
00:00:17,485 --> 00:00:18,025
hosts.

6
00:00:18,025 --> 00:00:21,648
And we also have a co-host whose name is

7
00:00:22,657 --> 00:00:24,498
Richard, hello everyone.

8
00:00:25,180 --> 00:00:26,581
My name's Richard Bradshaw.

9
00:00:26,581 --> 00:00:29,445
I am one of the co-hosts of the Vernon
Richard Show.

10
00:00:29,445 --> 00:00:30,406
Oh, even I got it wrong.

11
00:00:30,406 --> 00:00:31,808
The Vernon Richard Show.

12
00:00:31,808 --> 00:00:33,390
We'll get there eventually, right?

13
00:00:33,390 --> 00:00:35,332
Ha ha ha.

14
00:00:35,332 --> 00:00:35,548
Um.

15
00:00:35,548 --> 00:00:41,393
we're talking about is software testing,
software quality on all related topics.

16
00:00:41,393 --> 00:00:44,055
And it's going to be just a conversational
style.

17
00:00:44,276 --> 00:00:47,959
Things that we've noticed in between
episodes or things that are currently on

18
00:00:47,959 --> 00:00:48,440
our mind.

19
00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,021
And we're just going to get together.

20
00:00:50,381 --> 00:00:52,223
How often are we doing this every two
weeks?

21
00:00:52,223 --> 00:00:53,324
And we're just going to

22
00:00:53,585 --> 00:00:55,306
To start with every couple of weeks.

23
00:00:55,306 --> 00:00:59,249
Yeah, so those are the topics, but also
just generally life in tech.

24
00:01:00,570 --> 00:01:04,592
The stuff that goes with that, obviously
we have our expertise in that field, but

25
00:01:04,613 --> 00:01:06,134
everything else around life in tech.

26
00:01:06,134 --> 00:01:10,757
And I imagine football is gonna come up a
fair bit of time as well, given our

27
00:01:10,757 --> 00:01:12,678
ongoing football rivalry.

28
00:01:13,298 --> 00:01:16,521
But yeah, we're gonna keep this very
conversational format and hopefully we're

29
00:01:16,521 --> 00:01:21,144
gonna have a few kind of regular episodes
in a slightly different format, maybe a

30
00:01:21,144 --> 00:01:22,724
bit more AMA style.

31
00:01:23,025 --> 00:01:28,447
take some questions from the audience
throughout, over the weeks and maybe we'll

32
00:01:28,447 --> 00:01:31,728
ask them live on the show instead of me
and Vernon discussing whatever topics are

33
00:01:31,728 --> 00:01:35,169
coming up in our lives or careers.

34
00:01:36,250 --> 00:01:41,332
Yeah, so Vernon, obviously I know you, but
for anyone listening who doesn't know us

35
00:01:41,332 --> 00:01:44,272
yet, tell us a bit about yourself.

36
00:01:44,857 --> 00:01:46,657
Okay, so my name is Vernon.

37
00:01:46,657 --> 00:01:50,539
I am based in Leicester in the UK, which
is one of those annoying places that if

38
00:01:50,539 --> 00:01:55,221
you see it written down, it's not
pronounced how it's spelled at all.

39
00:01:55,221 --> 00:01:58,962
And I've been in the software and testing
game for 20 years.

40
00:01:58,962 --> 00:02:01,083
And I know what you're thinking, 20 years?

41
00:02:01,083 --> 00:02:02,724
But you're only 22 years old.

42
00:02:03,084 --> 00:02:04,364
I'm a little bit older than I look.

43
00:02:04,364 --> 00:02:05,425
So I've been in this for 20 years.

44
00:02:05,425 --> 00:02:08,006
I started out testing video games, which
was very cool.

45
00:02:08,126 --> 00:02:13,808
And then from there, I just went and did
websites and vending machines.

46
00:02:14,837 --> 00:02:17,178
At one point I was testing Formula One
cars, that was very cool.

47
00:02:17,178 --> 00:02:23,362
Uh, and then over the years I've moved
into speaking and delivering training

48
00:02:23,362 --> 00:02:28,446
workshops and hosting events in person and
online and all kinds of stuff.

49
00:02:28,446 --> 00:02:30,147
So yeah, that's me.

50
00:02:30,287 --> 00:02:31,428
Richie Rich.

51
00:02:31,428 --> 00:02:32,388
What about you?

52
00:02:32,745 --> 00:02:33,185
Awesome.

53
00:02:33,185 --> 00:02:33,485
Yeah.

54
00:02:33,485 --> 00:02:36,687
So I think I think I'm 15 years now.

55
00:02:36,687 --> 00:02:39,648
So that makes me what?

56
00:02:39,648 --> 00:02:40,589
18.

57
00:02:40,989 --> 00:02:41,649
Yeah.

58
00:02:41,649 --> 00:02:46,772
I think I'm 15 years into my, my testing
software quality journey.

59
00:02:47,172 --> 00:02:50,314
Started off in, in banking as part of my
placement degree.

60
00:02:50,314 --> 00:02:55,817
And then, yeah, I went through a lot of
mobile space, got into talks, workshops,

61
00:02:56,497 --> 00:03:01,000
just general being active around the
people in the industry.

62
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:01,820
And

63
00:03:02,893 --> 00:03:07,875
At the moment, I am a senior architect
within quality engineering.

64
00:03:08,175 --> 00:03:11,457
That's the, yeah.

65
00:03:11,457 --> 00:03:14,178
Basically, job titles are job titles.

66
00:03:14,178 --> 00:03:20,420
We should have a whole episode about job
titles, but I, go on, yeah.

67
00:03:21,122 --> 00:03:26,344
I have a day job with a health tech
company based in Germany with a lot of

68
00:03:26,344 --> 00:03:27,665
incredible people.

69
00:03:27,725 --> 00:03:34,268
And my job title, clear my throat for this
one, senior expert quality engineer.

70
00:03:34,268 --> 00:03:36,408
That's right, ladies and gentlemen.

71
00:03:36,408 --> 00:03:38,169
Not as an expert quality engineer.

72
00:03:38,329 --> 00:03:40,550
I'm not just a senior quality engineer.

73
00:03:40,550 --> 00:03:42,991
I'm a senior expert quality engineer.

74
00:03:42,991 --> 00:03:44,231
Thank you very much.

75
00:03:44,232 --> 00:03:46,712
All bow down before me when you see me.

76
00:03:47,109 --> 00:03:50,676
But I also like to do a bit of quality
coaching in that job and, you know,

77
00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:53,260
outside as well.

78
00:03:54,102 --> 00:03:55,643
That is a great job, Tile.

79
00:03:55,804 --> 00:03:57,144
I didn't even know that.

80
00:03:58,606 --> 00:03:59,807
Awesome.

81
00:04:00,212 --> 00:04:01,537
shout out to Dan Ashby for that one.

82
00:04:01,537 --> 00:04:03,040
I think this is all he's doing.

83
00:04:03,889 --> 00:04:07,830
I'm curious what other job titles exist in
the company now, but anyway, we'll go back

84
00:04:07,830 --> 00:04:09,110
with our first topic.

85
00:04:09,110 --> 00:04:15,232
So we decided to call this topic smoke
test or the smoke test or smoke testing.

86
00:04:15,232 --> 00:04:18,733
We're going to see where it goes, but we
haven't done this before.

87
00:04:18,854 --> 00:04:20,874
Not on, not on independently anyway.

88
00:04:20,874 --> 00:04:25,216
And we had never, I've never added
podcasts to platforms.

89
00:04:25,216 --> 00:04:27,156
I've never edited a podcast.

90
00:04:28,077 --> 00:04:30,458
So I've only really been a guest on
podcasts.

91
00:04:30,458 --> 00:04:31,698
So yeah, this is all new.

92
00:04:31,698 --> 00:04:35,339
So we're calling it the smoke test cause
we don't know if this is going to work.

93
00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:37,581
Um, there's lots of stuff to set up.

94
00:04:37,581 --> 00:04:40,022
There's lots of stuff to even see.

95
00:04:40,022 --> 00:04:41,662
We don't even know if this is going to
work.

96
00:04:41,662 --> 00:04:45,344
Like just me and Vernon might just talk
about football for a whole 30 minutes and

97
00:04:45,344 --> 00:04:47,024
no one's going to listen to that.

98
00:04:47,333 --> 00:04:48,497
I love how you said that.

99
00:04:48,497 --> 00:04:50,324
Oh yeah, we've never done this before.

100
00:04:50,324 --> 00:04:53,434
Translation, neither of us knows what the
we're doing.

101
00:04:55,770 --> 00:05:01,539
So that's why we called it the smoke test,
but let's dive into smoke testing, Vernon.

102
00:05:01,539 --> 00:05:02,540
What is it?

103
00:05:03,663 --> 00:05:05,184
Or what is it in your world?

104
00:05:06,117 --> 00:05:08,655
to me whenever I've used this term.

105
00:05:10,309 --> 00:05:13,229
I don't use it for a long time in work, it
feels like actually.

106
00:05:13,349 --> 00:05:19,491
But whenever I've used it in the past,
it's been those really quick tests that

107
00:05:19,491 --> 00:05:26,853
just tell you, is this even alive or valid
or like breathing?

108
00:05:26,873 --> 00:05:28,174
It's very quick.

109
00:05:29,534 --> 00:05:32,595
It's not deep, they're very shallow and
fast.

110
00:05:32,835 --> 00:05:36,796
You know, it's literally turn it on and
did the light come on, okay cool, then I'm

111
00:05:36,796 --> 00:05:37,656
off.

112
00:05:37,656 --> 00:05:38,496
That's it.

113
00:05:38,689 --> 00:05:40,689
And you might do that for a bunch of
different reasons.

114
00:05:40,689 --> 00:05:47,553
So you might do it when you get a new
build, depending on how you work.

115
00:05:47,553 --> 00:05:50,954
That's where I first ran into it back in
the day in my waterfall projects.

116
00:05:50,954 --> 00:05:53,355
We'd get a new build, we'd deploy it to
our environment.

117
00:05:54,015 --> 00:06:00,358
Or we'd get a new CD with the version of
the game on it.

118
00:06:01,079 --> 00:06:04,080
And we'd put it in the test machine.

119
00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:05,440
And if it worked.

120
00:06:05,797 --> 00:06:07,797
you know, turned on, did it boot to start
the game?

121
00:06:07,797 --> 00:06:09,258
That was our smoke test.

122
00:06:10,418 --> 00:06:11,979
And so then that was like, okay, yeah.

123
00:06:11,979 --> 00:06:15,400
Then we'd let all the other team know,
okay, this is working, we can actually use

124
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:16,001
it.

125
00:06:16,941 --> 00:06:19,562
So it was like a signal to carry on.

126
00:06:19,562 --> 00:06:26,865
Or another common situation I see in is,
there have been situations and times where

127
00:06:26,865 --> 00:06:33,848
testing in production has been either
difficult or frowned upon or both.

128
00:06:34,488 --> 00:06:35,128
So.

129
00:06:35,821 --> 00:06:39,522
you would deploy your, you know, you'd go
through the different testing in all

130
00:06:39,522 --> 00:06:41,543
different environments and you get to
production.

131
00:06:41,683 --> 00:06:45,765
And because you couldn't go hammer and
tongs in production, you would do a smoke

132
00:06:45,765 --> 00:06:51,107
test just to make sure, did we even, did
we just deploy what we thought we deployed

133
00:06:51,107 --> 00:06:55,369
and is it on fire or not?

134
00:06:55,369 --> 00:06:58,170
And if we would confirm those two things,
we stopped.

135
00:06:58,170 --> 00:07:00,131
That was it, success.

136
00:07:01,681 --> 00:07:06,123
I think that's interesting because I've
been having similar thoughts recently with

137
00:07:07,324 --> 00:07:07,925
some work.

138
00:07:07,925 --> 00:07:12,688
And it's like smoke tests for me is that,
you know, is it alive?

139
00:07:12,688 --> 00:07:17,752
Like I'm configured to talk to third party
A.

140
00:07:17,752 --> 00:07:19,232
Can we talk?

141
00:07:19,293 --> 00:07:21,935
We might be talking utter gibberish,
right?

142
00:07:21,935 --> 00:07:23,916
But there's a connection there.

143
00:07:23,916 --> 00:07:24,716
It's alive.

144
00:07:24,716 --> 00:07:26,998
It might not be working, but that's not
what I'm looking for.

145
00:07:26,998 --> 00:07:31,000
I'm looking for are you up and running and
can I talk to you?

146
00:07:31,333 --> 00:07:36,196
And again, all that do all that for the
various third party pieces or not even

147
00:07:36,196 --> 00:07:40,579
just third parties, but also the moving
parts of your own system.

148
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,841
Like I'm currently learning a lot about
AWS.

149
00:07:44,142 --> 00:07:48,685
It's all new to me and the amount of
configuration that you can do and how easy

150
00:07:48,685 --> 00:07:53,789
it is to break your app or misconfigure it
like, so there's all these internal like

151
00:07:53,789 --> 00:07:56,151
smoke test or health checks going on.

152
00:07:56,651 --> 00:07:58,393
Um, so that's kind of.

153
00:07:58,393 --> 00:08:00,313
That's kind of how I get used to it.

154
00:08:00,313 --> 00:08:02,895
Like it is, like you said, it's that
health check.

155
00:08:02,895 --> 00:08:07,717
I think it does come from the original
term of electronics, right?

156
00:08:07,717 --> 00:08:10,178
Like you turn the thing on and there's no
smoke.

157
00:08:10,178 --> 00:08:13,609
Um, but I don't, I don't have any evidence
for that memory.

158
00:08:13,609 --> 00:08:16,174
Yeah, you know what, I'd heard that.

159
00:08:16,174 --> 00:08:16,856
I'd heard that too.

160
00:08:16,856 --> 00:08:19,642
I haven't actually researched that to know
if that's a real thing or not, but it

161
00:08:19,642 --> 00:08:20,684
sounds plausible.

162
00:08:20,684 --> 00:08:21,826
Makes a lot of sense.

163
00:08:21,826 --> 00:08:22,428
And I'm so glad

164
00:08:22,428 --> 00:08:23,891
and you know, tell us.

165
00:08:25,121 --> 00:08:31,126
I'm so glad you used the term health check
because I think that's what they are now,

166
00:08:31,527 --> 00:08:32,847
are health checks.

167
00:08:33,208 --> 00:08:36,231
You know, it's all mixed up with
monitoring and things like that these

168
00:08:36,231 --> 00:08:38,192
days, or at least that's what it feels
like.

169
00:08:39,265 --> 00:08:44,548
And I think that's interesting, Mike, we
did a release today actually, and there

170
00:08:44,548 --> 00:08:47,889
was monitoring in place to tell us that
things were working.

171
00:08:47,889 --> 00:08:51,371
And we could see payments coming in from
someone else.

172
00:08:51,371 --> 00:08:56,054
So we could have tested a payment flow,
but we could see in real time that someone

173
00:08:56,054 --> 00:08:57,155
had just paid.

174
00:08:57,155 --> 00:09:00,516
So obviously it might not be working,
right?

175
00:09:00,516 --> 00:09:04,879
But it's, it's alive and someone was able
to pay.

176
00:09:04,879 --> 00:09:08,060
But yeah, I think that's really
interesting, but like I've also

177
00:09:08,213 --> 00:09:11,315
I think we're kind of in agreement with
how we view what a smoke test is, but I've

178
00:09:11,315 --> 00:09:12,876
also seen it be slightly differently.

179
00:09:12,876 --> 00:09:18,480
I've seen it, I've seen it kind of morph
into the world of regression or like a set

180
00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:24,864
of end to end checks or, um, like felt
like kind of validation tests.

181
00:09:24,864 --> 00:09:26,806
I've seen that kind of space as well.

182
00:09:26,806 --> 00:09:28,467
It's like, want to go a little bit.

183
00:09:28,467 --> 00:09:32,630
It's more that instead of the things can
talk, it's more that they can talk in

184
00:09:32,630 --> 00:09:35,912
this, um, planned way.

185
00:09:35,912 --> 00:09:36,592
So.

186
00:09:36,641 --> 00:09:39,868
Yes, they can talk, but I want to know
that they're talking correctly for this

187
00:09:39,868 --> 00:09:40,971
specific scenario.

188
00:09:40,971 --> 00:09:43,756
I don't know if you've come across that.

189
00:09:44,846 --> 00:09:49,947
The example that always springs to mind,
and you just reminded me of it again, is I

190
00:09:49,947 --> 00:09:56,069
worked at a media company some years ago,
quite a big one, at least if you're in the

191
00:09:56,069 --> 00:09:56,769
UK.

192
00:09:56,769 --> 00:10:04,271
And whenever we did a release, when I was
there on this team, there's probably,

193
00:10:04,711 --> 00:10:08,272
depending on how you count it, there's
basically one thing you wanted to check,

194
00:10:08,512 --> 00:10:10,373
and you checked it in maybe two or three
different ways.

195
00:10:10,373 --> 00:10:13,093
And that is, can we still sell?

196
00:10:14,510 --> 00:10:19,031
the TV packages that sell the most.

197
00:10:19,031 --> 00:10:22,772
And so long as we can do that, we are
golden.

198
00:10:23,772 --> 00:10:26,993
So I don't, but I don't think we called it
a smoke test actually.

199
00:10:27,073 --> 00:10:32,735
It was something else, but we had to, we
still needed to be able to sell, but not

200
00:10:32,735 --> 00:10:36,436
just sell our most popular packages we had
to be able to sell.

201
00:10:36,436 --> 00:10:40,957
And so long as we could do that,
everything was deemed to be, well, we're

202
00:10:40,957 --> 00:10:41,757
fine.

203
00:10:42,498 --> 00:10:45,285
We haven't just doomed the company to
hideous pain.

204
00:10:45,934 --> 00:10:52,277
you ever had to do the old hack of
creating a 99% discount code so you can

205
00:10:52,277 --> 00:10:56,960
actually buy it in production using a real
card instead of doing the full price

206
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:57,760
stuff?

207
00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,841
I did that at Tesco I think.

208
00:11:00,411 --> 00:11:02,737
100% did that and also...

209
00:11:04,558 --> 00:11:10,882
getting the CTO's credit card or
somebody's credit card because they've got

210
00:11:10,882 --> 00:11:13,204
access to whatever leave is to get that
money back or whatever.

211
00:11:13,204 --> 00:11:15,086
So it's like, give us your credit card.

212
00:11:15,609 --> 00:11:19,430
We used to have it where you'd use our
card.

213
00:11:19,430 --> 00:11:20,191
I don't know whose it was.

214
00:11:20,191 --> 00:11:21,271
It was probably with the officers.

215
00:11:21,271 --> 00:11:25,853
But then someone would eventually remember
it and be like, did you cancel it?

216
00:11:25,853 --> 00:11:28,074
It's not going to like subscribe again or
resubscribe.

217
00:11:28,074 --> 00:11:29,235
Like make sure you cancel it.

218
00:11:29,235 --> 00:11:32,936
And then you also had to go and dig out
the real receipts because like they, they

219
00:11:32,936 --> 00:11:34,977
treated it as a genuine, you know,
expense.

220
00:11:34,977 --> 00:11:37,858
So then you had to go into the system and
get the receipts.

221
00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:41,600
Yeah.

222
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:41,968
So yeah.

223
00:11:41,968 --> 00:11:42,688
you think...

224
00:11:43,477 --> 00:11:44,497
Yeah, absolutely.

225
00:11:44,497 --> 00:11:46,878
I think, well, you know, you touched on
testing in production.

226
00:11:46,878 --> 00:11:48,579
I think it's the, it's a similar thing.

227
00:11:48,579 --> 00:11:52,740
Like you, you can, a lot of systems where
you want to do that kind of testing, you

228
00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:55,041
can get all the way to the basket.

229
00:11:55,181 --> 00:11:58,703
But then it's like, well, I can't, I don't
want to buy it because I don't want to put

230
00:11:58,703 --> 00:11:59,243
an order in.

231
00:11:59,243 --> 00:12:03,885
I don't want to start shipping things to
one test fill in test town.

232
00:12:03,885 --> 00:12:07,146
I don't want to start doing any of that.

233
00:12:07,146 --> 00:12:12,288
So like you, you are limited with the kind
of, you know, these production kind of,

234
00:12:12,288 --> 00:12:13,185
um, you know,

235
00:12:13,185 --> 00:12:14,962
smoke test, full end to end,

236
00:12:15,059 --> 00:12:17,280
whatever we want to call them, like
validation tests.

237
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:22,081
Um, yeah, you are limited with what you
can do, but yeah, smoke testing.

238
00:12:22,121 --> 00:12:26,402
I think like you said, help check, keep
the lights on, other lights on even.

239
00:12:26,443 --> 00:12:30,624
Um, and then yeah, other, I think other
things are, I think all these things are

240
00:12:30,624 --> 00:12:31,724
valid to do in production.

241
00:12:31,724 --> 00:12:32,584
I want to make that clear.

242
00:12:32,584 --> 00:12:37,266
Like, I don't think you shouldn't be doing
an end to end test or going through a

243
00:12:37,266 --> 00:12:40,826
purchase, like, you know, if that suits
the context.

244
00:12:40,999 --> 00:12:43,021
I'm not saying you should always be doing
that.

245
00:12:43,021 --> 00:12:47,586
Some systems, there's a lot of things I
can think could go wrong, like metrics and

246
00:12:47,586 --> 00:12:50,910
analytics, and go, we keep selling this
product that no one buys.

247
00:12:50,910 --> 00:12:52,693
We sell one every Friday at 4 PM.

248
00:12:52,693 --> 00:12:55,615
Who keeps buying it on Friday at 4 PM?

249
00:12:57,006 --> 00:13:05,211
The main, me in my context is testing in
production screws up a lot of metrics for

250
00:13:05,211 --> 00:13:05,812
people.

251
00:13:05,812 --> 00:13:06,432
Yeah, yeah.

252
00:13:06,432 --> 00:13:12,537
So it's really, you know, it's a really,
it's a thing we're trying to figure out

253
00:13:12,537 --> 00:13:14,194
how to get better at, that's for sure.

254
00:13:14,346 --> 00:13:14,606
Nice.

255
00:13:14,606 --> 00:13:18,947
So our smoke test in this instance is
number one, can we record it?

256
00:13:19,868 --> 00:13:21,129
Can we edit it?

257
00:13:21,129 --> 00:13:25,431
And can we somehow put it into some tool
that distributes it to where hopefully you

258
00:13:25,431 --> 00:13:27,011
are listening to it now?

259
00:13:27,532 --> 00:13:30,593
And can you watch it on YouTube?

260
00:13:30,593 --> 00:13:31,834
So yeah, that's the plan with this.

261
00:13:31,834 --> 00:13:37,056
We're going to put the video on YouTube
and we will try and distribute the audio

262
00:13:37,056 --> 00:13:40,017
podcast kind of version of it across.

263
00:13:40,682 --> 00:13:45,409
all major platforms as I hear on some of
these more professional pods or wherever

264
00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:46,690
you get your pods from.

265
00:13:46,690 --> 00:13:49,436
yeah, this is where we drop the cliches
now, right?

266
00:13:49,436 --> 00:13:54,328
It's like make sure you smash that like
button, comment, subscribe.

267
00:13:54,328 --> 00:13:56,236
Follow and subscribe, where's the link?

268
00:13:56,236 --> 00:13:58,684
I don't know where the link is because I
don't know where it goes.

269
00:13:58,782 --> 00:14:02,612
Yeah, wherever you're listening to this,
please leave a five star review.

270
00:14:03,438 --> 00:14:08,162
I keep listening to the diary of a CEO,
very good podcast with Stephen.

271
00:14:08,162 --> 00:14:12,485
And he, his latest thing is the most
important thing you can do for this

272
00:14:12,485 --> 00:14:15,968
podcast is to follow us on whatever
platform you are listening to.

273
00:14:16,088 --> 00:14:17,590
It's not about sharing or anything else.

274
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:19,832
All I need you to do is just to follow us
on the platform.

275
00:14:19,832 --> 00:14:22,194
It will do more good than I can put into
words.

276
00:14:22,194 --> 00:14:23,815
So yeah, I'm going to copy him.

277
00:14:23,815 --> 00:14:27,638
Follow us, like it, subscribe, but do all
those fun things that you do on all these

278
00:14:27,638 --> 00:14:28,212
platforms.

279
00:14:28,431 --> 00:14:29,052
Right.

280
00:14:29,052 --> 00:14:30,252
Next topic then.

281
00:14:32,245 --> 00:14:38,230
This is super sketchy, but the thing I
wanted to talk about was knowledge work.

282
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:40,673
So why was I thinking about knowledge
work?

283
00:14:40,673 --> 00:14:44,976
Well, over the past, I don't know, man.

284
00:14:45,477 --> 00:14:50,642
It feels like since the beginning of the
year, maybe even in December, there've

285
00:14:50,642 --> 00:14:53,665
been a ton, LinkedIn is the new Twitter
anyway.

286
00:14:53,665 --> 00:14:55,927
So that's where a lot of the cool
conversations are happening.

287
00:14:56,528 --> 00:14:57,348
And so.

288
00:14:58,677 --> 00:15:02,925
But there are a lot of conversations that
were actually arguments and rows and, you

289
00:15:02,925 --> 00:15:06,071
know, people sharing opinions and then
getting smashed and blasted and then

290
00:15:06,071 --> 00:15:08,796
people reacting to that and, you know,
going around and around in circles like

291
00:15:08,796 --> 00:15:09,219
that.

292
00:15:09,867 --> 00:15:16,092
from developers saying, you know, flamey
things about testers and testing to

293
00:15:16,092 --> 00:15:23,657
testers saying, using, I'm using air
quotes if you're listening, the wrong

294
00:15:23,657 --> 00:15:28,681
language for certain individuals in
certain communities and get inflamed and

295
00:15:28,681 --> 00:15:30,302
smashed for that.

296
00:15:30,302 --> 00:15:34,646
And it just, it always, it always makes me
think of, I don't know why, but it always

297
00:15:34,646 --> 00:15:35,866
makes me think of this.

298
00:15:37,415 --> 00:15:40,779
The thing that I first heard Alan Page say
like years ago, and it really, really

299
00:15:40,779 --> 00:15:41,480
stuck with me.

300
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,946
And it was something, I think it was as
simple as, look man, it's all just

301
00:15:45,946 --> 00:15:49,530
knowledge work, which was his way of
saying.

302
00:15:51,323 --> 00:15:57,847
Testing is not special in that regard
because it's another variation or

303
00:15:57,847 --> 00:15:59,748
manifestation of knowledge work.

304
00:16:00,569 --> 00:16:04,011
So, over the years I've always thought
about what is knowledge work?

305
00:16:04,151 --> 00:16:09,614
And then I read this really cool book by,
I'm gonna get his name wrong.

306
00:16:11,992 --> 00:16:13,236
Pressure Tantan.

307
00:16:13,487 --> 00:16:16,468
I can't remember the name of the book, but
I can remember the name of the author, but

308
00:16:16,468 --> 00:16:17,228
I can't remember the name of the book.

309
00:16:17,228 --> 00:16:21,609
The book is called Same As Ever, and I'll
just Google the name of the author a bit.

310
00:16:22,910 --> 00:16:28,051
And there's a really, the last chapter of
that book is absolutely brilliant.

311
00:16:28,412 --> 00:16:30,272
Morgan Hounsell, yeah, that's it.

312
00:16:30,332 --> 00:16:31,112
Absolute legend.

313
00:16:31,112 --> 00:16:33,093
He was on Die of a Sea, yeah, actually.

314
00:16:33,093 --> 00:16:34,453
Definitely go watch that episode.

315
00:16:36,794 --> 00:16:38,294
Yeah, and the last.

316
00:16:38,783 --> 00:16:41,765
I was reading the last chapter of that
book in and around these time that these

317
00:16:41,765 --> 00:16:42,925
arguments are happening.

318
00:16:43,566 --> 00:16:46,388
And he talks in there about why did these
things happen?

319
00:16:46,749 --> 00:16:51,853
And, you know, it was around, well, you
know, if you're an expert in a thing, then

320
00:16:51,853 --> 00:16:54,394
people can say things and to you.

321
00:16:56,239 --> 00:17:01,163
they've completely missed the nuance of
the topic and they've just tried to skirt

322
00:17:01,163 --> 00:17:07,168
over a million and one things and you're
like, how dare you just minimise my whole

323
00:17:08,049 --> 00:17:12,933
sphere of study into one pithy line, you
devils.

324
00:17:13,133 --> 00:17:15,395
And I think that rang true.

325
00:17:15,395 --> 00:17:16,576
So that's why it was on my mind.

326
00:17:16,576 --> 00:17:20,820
So I went and looked at what knowledge
work was and things like that.

327
00:17:20,820 --> 00:17:21,901
What do you think what knowledge work is?

328
00:17:21,901 --> 00:17:24,102
Have you thought about this much or?

329
00:17:25,303 --> 00:17:27,624
So I'm thinking two things right now.

330
00:17:27,624 --> 00:17:31,345
I'm thinking the context of where you
would got this from was obviously an

331
00:17:31,345 --> 00:17:33,706
argument or discussions on LinkedIn,
right?

332
00:17:33,706 --> 00:17:38,848
So is it that being an active member of a
community or being active in the industry

333
00:17:38,848 --> 00:17:42,270
and trying to share your knowledge is
knowledge work, or is it that the job of a

334
00:17:42,270 --> 00:17:49,833
tester or QA, QE, whatever super duper
energetic quality engineer or whatever it

335
00:17:49,833 --> 00:17:51,533
is that you're called at your company?

336
00:17:55,019 --> 00:17:58,564
Is it that that's knowledge work or is it
sharing that's knowledge work?

337
00:17:58,564 --> 00:18:00,746
But just to clarify for me.

338
00:18:02,219 --> 00:18:03,290
I think the definition.

339
00:18:03,663 --> 00:18:04,864
of knowledge work?

340
00:18:04,864 --> 00:18:08,487
Well, actually I'll start with what isn't
knowledge work.

341
00:18:08,487 --> 00:18:14,812
So I think the work that isn't knowledge
work in the before times is basically

342
00:18:14,812 --> 00:18:16,813
manual labor and physical labor.

343
00:18:17,174 --> 00:18:19,676
And then knowledge work is not that.

344
00:18:19,676 --> 00:18:24,700
So it's not that work that you're always,
doing stuff with your hands and you're

345
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:30,965
not, grinding the gears in the machine or
tilling the land or anything, it's more

346
00:18:31,426 --> 00:18:32,346
around.

347
00:18:33,563 --> 00:18:39,160
concepts and information and manipulating
that information and processing it in some

348
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:40,483
way, shape or form.

349
00:18:40,785 --> 00:18:41,446
So.

350
00:18:43,859 --> 00:18:44,316
Cause I...

351
00:18:44,316 --> 00:18:50,666
cognitive in nature and it's more based on
expertise, I think.

352
00:18:50,927 --> 00:18:52,703
Let me see if I can quickly find the
definitions.

353
00:18:52,703 --> 00:18:59,167
when you mentioned it to me, I had a quick
Google and it was, um, kind of your, your

354
00:18:59,167 --> 00:19:00,687
capital is knowledge.

355
00:19:00,747 --> 00:19:04,309
So if you're building something, if you're
a, let's say the stay in engineering,

356
00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:11,393
right, you're a developer, your capital is
probably code or functions or software.

357
00:19:11,633 --> 00:19:13,634
Whereas that's what you deliver, right?

358
00:19:13,634 --> 00:19:14,495
That's what you build.

359
00:19:14,495 --> 00:19:19,478
Obviously you contribute other stuff too,
but predominantly your capital is work is

360
00:19:19,478 --> 00:19:20,418
software.

361
00:19:20,678 --> 00:19:21,358
And.

362
00:19:22,991 --> 00:19:27,032
in when you first mentioned this to me,
what I started thinking about is, and

363
00:19:27,032 --> 00:19:31,493
something I started at that recently at
the new job was, I've struggled to get

364
00:19:31,493 --> 00:19:35,254
going originally because I was like, I
don't have any knowledge.

365
00:19:35,254 --> 00:19:39,235
Like, like, you know, we're getting
tickets and we're discussing things and

366
00:19:39,235 --> 00:19:41,616
like, I don't know the system yet.

367
00:19:41,616 --> 00:19:45,877
Like, I'm hearing the words and you're
saying, and I'm trying to make a model in

368
00:19:45,877 --> 00:19:48,598
my head, but it ain't forming because it's
full of holes.

369
00:19:48,598 --> 00:19:49,898
It's full of gaps.

370
00:19:50,223 --> 00:19:55,467
And I don't have this knowledge, but
previously I've kind of always excelled

371
00:19:55,467 --> 00:20:02,993
myself or treated that knowledge as kind
of my number one asset is that I have this

372
00:20:03,034 --> 00:20:04,895
deep knowledge of the system.

373
00:20:05,075 --> 00:20:08,979
And I think interestingly as well, like I
always wanted to, I think the way that

374
00:20:08,979 --> 00:20:14,303
changed for me was I kind of went, I had
deep knowledge of the system in terms of

375
00:20:14,303 --> 00:20:18,266
users, functionality, the pages.

376
00:20:18,619 --> 00:20:21,939
And then when I moved into the automation
space, I started deep deepening that

377
00:20:21,939 --> 00:20:25,640
knowledge to what's the technology, what's
the protocol, how does that talk?

378
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:26,981
How does this happen?

379
00:20:27,201 --> 00:20:32,402
So I've kind of viewed myself that I've
got all these great skills and I've got

380
00:20:32,402 --> 00:20:36,163
all these techniques and heuristics and
coding skills and all this stuff.

381
00:20:36,163 --> 00:20:42,245
But my end goal is what I want is
information, knowledge, things that I can

382
00:20:42,245 --> 00:20:43,965
communicate back to the team.

383
00:20:43,965 --> 00:20:47,346
Like again, an engineer would go, Hey,
here's some working code.

384
00:20:47,506 --> 00:20:48,231
And I'm like,

385
00:20:48,231 --> 00:20:52,855
There's some knowledge, like, you know,
like, I thought that's what I'm trading

386
00:20:52,855 --> 00:20:52,975
in.

387
00:20:52,975 --> 00:20:56,278
I'm saying like, my knowledge is the
system behaves and it works.

388
00:20:56,278 --> 00:20:57,979
So that's what it made me think of
knowledge work.

389
00:20:57,979 --> 00:21:01,822
And I think I mentioned to you off air,
that's how I've used it in the past.

390
00:21:01,822 --> 00:21:07,988
Like I, I traded knowledge and I gave a
talk last year about like gap analysis and

391
00:21:07,988 --> 00:21:13,893
how a lot of my work is there suddenly is
a gap in my knowledge and I need to fill

392
00:21:13,893 --> 00:21:16,191
it and know a new feature.

393
00:21:16,191 --> 00:21:17,192
I don't know anything about that.

394
00:21:17,192 --> 00:21:18,634
I need to learn about it.

395
00:21:18,634 --> 00:21:19,795
There's a bug in production.

396
00:21:19,795 --> 00:21:21,117
You need to learn about that.

397
00:21:21,117 --> 00:21:23,219
There's a random error that keeps
happening.

398
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:24,922
I want to learn about that.

399
00:21:24,922 --> 00:21:29,088
So like most of my day is like basically
my mental model of the system is my

400
00:21:29,088 --> 00:21:34,194
knowledge and I spot these gaps and I've
got to go and plug them basically.

401
00:21:35,420 --> 00:21:38,581
Yeah, that, to me, that is exactly it.

402
00:21:38,581 --> 00:21:44,083
And so I love that example because that is
what testing is about.

403
00:21:44,083 --> 00:21:45,944
It's about trading the knowledge.

404
00:21:47,845 --> 00:21:55,428
But what I think the issue is, so when
I've dug through my notes here, I've got

405
00:21:55,428 --> 00:21:56,288
some stuff written down.

406
00:21:56,288 --> 00:22:01,270
I was using, you know, chat GPT,
searching, trying to scan a few articles

407
00:22:01,270 --> 00:22:02,090
and things.

408
00:22:02,335 --> 00:22:07,197
And there are some characteristics of
knowledge work that you just talked about.

409
00:22:07,497 --> 00:22:14,681
So cognitive efforts or complexity is one,
specialized knowledge or expertise and

410
00:22:14,681 --> 00:22:20,925
skills, innovation and creativity,
information processing, and non-routine

411
00:22:20,925 --> 00:22:21,765
work.

412
00:22:21,825 --> 00:22:25,767
So like problem solving and continuous
learning.

413
00:22:26,528 --> 00:22:32,310
And so why I think part, I think at least
part of why

414
00:22:32,879 --> 00:22:43,564
software testers don't always get the
credit and why it's sometimes easy to, you

415
00:22:43,564 --> 00:22:49,847
know, be disparaged or not taken seriously
is because of the parts that are visible

416
00:22:50,188 --> 00:22:54,970
look routine, which a lot of other
knowledge workers have.

417
00:22:54,970 --> 00:22:59,593
So my, you know, some of the folks will
know that my wife is a solicitor and

418
00:22:59,593 --> 00:23:01,834
solicitors are absolute classics for this

419
00:23:03,619 --> 00:23:08,881
you know, people go and talk to them for
hours and then they weren't here for them

420
00:23:08,881 --> 00:23:11,883
for days and days and then they'll get
given a letter and they're like, what that

421
00:23:11,883 --> 00:23:13,524
letter has got like two paragraphs in it.

422
00:23:13,524 --> 00:23:19,067
Why have you and you've charged me $10
million this thing.

423
00:23:19,067 --> 00:23:24,450
But what they don't realize is all the
training and the expertise and the

424
00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:29,853
knowledge and the creativity that has to
go into well, how do I create those

425
00:23:29,853 --> 00:23:30,333
paragraphs?

426
00:23:30,333 --> 00:23:31,414
What needs to go in there?

427
00:23:31,414 --> 00:23:32,871
What do I need to leave out?

428
00:23:32,871 --> 00:23:35,351
What are the key points to cover, et
cetera, et cetera.

429
00:23:35,351 --> 00:23:36,912
And I think it's the same with testing.

430
00:23:37,872 --> 00:23:44,454
Certainly traditionally, when I started
back in the day, early 2000s, it was very

431
00:23:44,454 --> 00:23:49,015
much, at least when I left video games,
video games was weirdly a little bit

432
00:23:49,015 --> 00:23:51,316
forward thinking to some degree.

433
00:23:51,416 --> 00:23:53,756
It was very much around test cases.

434
00:23:54,237 --> 00:23:57,257
Like if you don't have any test cases,
nothing happened.

435
00:23:57,477 --> 00:23:59,558
Basically was how it worked.

436
00:23:59,558 --> 00:24:01,438
So if you don't have any test cases,

437
00:24:01,455 --> 00:24:05,616
and your work is not visible, then people
just think, well, you're not doing

438
00:24:05,616 --> 00:24:06,136
anything.

439
00:24:06,136 --> 00:24:11,618
Or they might think, whenever I see Vernon
working, he's just smashing buttons on a

440
00:24:11,618 --> 00:24:11,978
keyboard.

441
00:24:11,978 --> 00:24:13,118
That's all he's doing.

442
00:24:13,698 --> 00:24:17,499
And it's interesting that you talked about
developers and your experience

443
00:24:18,337 --> 00:24:25,099
being an automation engineer, because I
think they suffer less from that, because

444
00:24:25,099 --> 00:24:28,179
there's almost this tacit understanding.

445
00:24:29,168 --> 00:24:33,329
or this assumption that, oh yeah, well,
that's, you know, that's difficult to do.

446
00:24:34,309 --> 00:24:38,290
Yeah, like I know that the work isn't
bashing keys on the keyboard.

447
00:24:38,290 --> 00:24:42,044
I know they've gone and thought about
something because their work product

448
00:24:42,847 --> 00:24:43,967
is kind of intangible.

449
00:24:43,967 --> 00:24:47,288
I mean, it isn't because you're making a
product, but it's kind of intangible.

450
00:24:47,288 --> 00:24:51,149
I know that they do stuff on the keyboard
and then some magic happened and now I've

451
00:24:51,149 --> 00:24:53,810
got something on the screen and I don't
really understand that.

452
00:24:54,030 --> 00:24:56,030
So, yeah.

453
00:24:56,030 --> 00:24:56,447
And I think...

454
00:24:56,447 --> 00:24:57,071
but...

455
00:24:57,879 --> 00:25:00,782
it's trickier for us to make that
connection with people.

456
00:25:01,751 --> 00:25:05,291
I think it is, but I think we, we don't
help ourselves.

457
00:25:05,291 --> 00:25:10,153
I think of a few examples now, but with
the programming, with the developers one,

458
00:25:10,153 --> 00:25:11,813
one thing I've always come across.

459
00:25:11,813 --> 00:25:14,334
And it's a quote I heard at a conference
that I can never find.

460
00:25:14,334 --> 00:25:18,275
I always try and find it, but I don't
think it is thinking of someone's opinion,

461
00:25:18,275 --> 00:25:21,936
but it's the distinction between
programming and coding.

462
00:25:22,376 --> 00:25:26,117
So they made the argument that, and I get
them the wrong way around, but I think

463
00:25:26,117 --> 00:25:27,237
it's this way around.

464
00:25:27,237 --> 00:25:31,438
Programming is thinking of the models of
the system, the architecture.

465
00:25:31,439 --> 00:25:35,601
the designing, the design patterns, the,
what should be a config, what shouldn't,

466
00:25:35,601 --> 00:25:35,841
right?

467
00:25:35,841 --> 00:25:41,124
All the hard work that in some companies
and this I'll relate, I'll relate this

468
00:25:41,124 --> 00:25:44,605
back to testing in a second is done by
somebody else.

469
00:25:44,866 --> 00:25:48,768
In some companies you are given, this is
how you're going to do it.

470
00:25:48,768 --> 00:25:50,149
Here's the architecture.

471
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:54,971
I remember architect role in my very early
days was the person who built all the

472
00:25:54,971 --> 00:25:58,633
models, built all the DTOs, built all the
stack.

473
00:25:58,633 --> 00:26:01,475
And then all you were doing was using bits
of it.

474
00:26:01,475 --> 00:26:03,136
right, to do what you wanted.

475
00:26:03,397 --> 00:26:07,400
And, and then they mentioned coding as
simply being the passion of the Keats.

476
00:26:08,722 --> 00:26:12,945
And I think we had a distinction in this,
in the testing space a long time ago.

477
00:26:13,066 --> 00:26:17,390
Again, it might be my own experiences, but
in my early careers, in my early role,

478
00:26:17,390 --> 00:26:22,834
sorry, it was the test leads that would
write all the test cases.

479
00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:24,783
Okay.

480
00:26:25,047 --> 00:26:27,488
And I would just get given the test case.

481
00:26:27,969 --> 00:26:30,471
And then I would have to run said test
case.

482
00:26:30,992 --> 00:26:35,696
Obviously using just the explicit
knowledge that has been codified into the

483
00:26:35,696 --> 00:26:42,622
test case, not all that tacit gold that
was sat in the test leads head as they

484
00:26:42,622 --> 00:26:45,865
wrote that test case and not, I'd get
nothing.

485
00:26:45,865 --> 00:26:48,146
I get none of the stuff that was left out.

486
00:26:48,587 --> 00:26:50,968
Why have you decided this flow and not
that flow?

487
00:26:51,229 --> 00:26:51,930
Why is this not here?

488
00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:53,230
And why is that not here?

489
00:26:53,539 --> 00:26:55,820
So like, I wasn't getting any of that
information.

490
00:26:55,820 --> 00:26:57,840
I was just getting given a test case.

491
00:26:58,141 --> 00:27:03,463
So that led to then me obviously doing
some of this more work of, you know,

492
00:27:03,463 --> 00:27:05,804
trying to understand the test case and
running it.

493
00:27:06,084 --> 00:27:11,246
But like, back to what you said earlier as
well is my output of that was a pile of

494
00:27:11,246 --> 00:27:15,808
passed or failed test cases and maybe a
few bug reports, right?

495
00:27:15,808 --> 00:27:17,889
My own thinking wasn't captured.

496
00:27:18,029 --> 00:27:21,450
My own models, my little scribbles on a
piece of paper.

497
00:27:21,515 --> 00:27:26,578
My testing story is, I always reference
Huib whenever I say that, but Huib Schoots

498
00:27:26,578 --> 00:27:29,961
whenever I say testing story, that wasn't
being told.

499
00:27:30,181 --> 00:27:36,185
My, my perceived work was a pile of passed
or failed test cases.

500
00:27:36,506 --> 00:27:41,810
So that's all they believed I did was read
some words, follow the instructions and

501
00:27:41,810 --> 00:27:43,091
tick a box.

502
00:27:43,231 --> 00:27:46,513
And I didn't know how to argue back about
that at the time.

503
00:27:46,554 --> 00:27:47,854
So yeah.

504
00:27:48,157 --> 00:27:48,357
Mm-hmm.

505
00:27:48,357 --> 00:27:50,701
It's definitely, I couldn't agree more.

506
00:27:50,701 --> 00:27:58,273
Like, it's the intellectual effort is
difficult to perceive.

507
00:27:59,436 --> 00:28:01,198
So all of your thinking.

508
00:28:03,075 --> 00:28:08,559
transformed into a tick or a cross
basically.

509
00:28:08,619 --> 00:28:10,941
And like, oh, well, if that's all, that's
all there is to it.

510
00:28:10,981 --> 00:28:13,803
Coupled with the fact that everybody
tests.

511
00:28:14,384 --> 00:28:18,107
And I'm not just talking about at work in
a software team.

512
00:28:18,147 --> 00:28:24,492
I'm talking about, you know, after I've
had a hard workout at the gym, then, and I

513
00:28:24,492 --> 00:28:25,773
run myself a hot bath.

514
00:28:25,773 --> 00:28:27,154
I don't just dive straight in the bath.

515
00:28:27,154 --> 00:28:29,977
Like, I'll, you know, I'll dip my toe in
or ease myself in.

516
00:28:29,977 --> 00:28:31,078
That's testing.

517
00:28:31,078 --> 00:28:32,598
You make yourself something to eat.

518
00:28:32,683 --> 00:28:33,524
taste it.

519
00:28:34,006 --> 00:28:35,067
It's missing some.

520
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:41,185
some Peri sauce just tonight and as soon
as I'd blitzed it up, I was like, ooh, bit

521
00:28:41,185 --> 00:28:42,045
hot that.

522
00:28:42,286 --> 00:28:43,726
I always test them.

523
00:28:44,018 --> 00:28:44,899
yeah, exactly.

524
00:28:44,899 --> 00:28:49,307
I'll, you know, go out with.

525
00:28:49,307 --> 00:28:51,408
while you talk about always testing.

526
00:28:51,508 --> 00:28:52,889
My car is currently sat.

527
00:28:52,889 --> 00:28:56,090
My car is currently sat at 4% outside my
house.

528
00:28:56,150 --> 00:29:02,192
And after this, I have to drive it about
just a couple of miles to charge it.

529
00:29:02,192 --> 00:29:03,633
Cause I haven't got a charge yet.

530
00:29:03,633 --> 00:29:06,754
So testing, always testing.

531
00:29:07,163 --> 00:29:10,097
Change anxiety is seriously kicking in for
me right now.

532
00:29:10,097 --> 00:29:11,300
It's not even like up.

533
00:29:11,570 --> 00:29:17,352
But I, I back onto this idea of knowledge,
like knowledge work, or I think just a bit

534
00:29:17,352 --> 00:29:20,713
Googling, I did them a difference between
like a knowledge worker and knowledge

535
00:29:20,713 --> 00:29:27,356
work, I know that's kind of a very subtle
difference, but those examples that we

536
00:29:27,356 --> 00:29:30,618
gave, I've seen the same thing in the
automation space.

537
00:29:30,618 --> 00:29:35,279
And it's why, again, I don't, I don't
think we've shifted the problem from a

538
00:29:35,279 --> 00:29:40,430
perception of what the workers testers do
or QA's do or QE's do or

539
00:29:40,430 --> 00:29:45,393
automation engineers do because the same
thing's happening in automation.

540
00:29:45,393 --> 00:29:49,455
Now you're being judged by how many tests
you automate, right?

541
00:29:49,475 --> 00:29:54,338
Or your perceived value is the number of
tests that you've automated.

542
00:29:54,598 --> 00:29:59,461
But actually the amount of, if you think
of building a feature for a piece of

543
00:29:59,461 --> 00:30:04,264
software, you've probably got a product
owner facilitating a scrum master or

544
00:30:04,264 --> 00:30:06,630
something like that, one of these roles
you've got.

545
00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:08,390
You've got might have BAs in there.

546
00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:11,812
You might have developers, engineers,
senior, all levels, right?

547
00:30:11,812 --> 00:30:16,694
They're all contributing to this feature
that then gets built and then gets tested.

548
00:30:16,694 --> 00:30:20,315
So there's like five, six people or
whatever contributing.

549
00:30:20,315 --> 00:30:25,938
When it comes to an automated test, it's
me, myself, and I, right?

550
00:30:25,938 --> 00:30:28,779
It's I'm thinking of what to automate.

551
00:30:28,779 --> 00:30:30,240
I'm thinking of the test.

552
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,300
I need the knowledge.

553
00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:32,340
I need the risk.

554
00:30:32,340 --> 00:30:35,081
I need the system knowledge to know what
layer to do it on.

555
00:30:35,154 --> 00:30:37,515
I need the skills to build it in the first
place.

556
00:30:37,515 --> 00:30:39,456
Then I need the skills to test it.

557
00:30:39,696 --> 00:30:47,860
So I'm doing all those things myself, but
the output is still viewed as, Oh, you

558
00:30:47,860 --> 00:30:48,741
wrote an automated test.

559
00:30:48,741 --> 00:30:49,841
Well done, Richard.

560
00:30:49,941 --> 00:30:50,642
Well done.

561
00:30:50,642 --> 00:30:51,582
Pat on the back.

562
00:30:51,582 --> 00:30:53,323
And I'm like, no, I did all this.

563
00:30:53,323 --> 00:30:58,066
And sometimes you don't get the
opportunity to talk about all that extra

564
00:30:58,246 --> 00:31:00,047
knowledge work, let's say.

565
00:31:00,367 --> 00:31:05,030
Um, and I feel, yeah, I feel like that's
the very similar problem that we've taken

566
00:31:05,030 --> 00:31:09,412
And not, we could probably talk about it
for hours, but I think that there is a,

567
00:31:09,412 --> 00:31:14,254
there is a talk or an article or
conversation to be had that automated

568
00:31:14,494 --> 00:31:16,255
tests are basically test case 2.0.

569
00:31:16,255 --> 00:31:19,536
They've, they've gone the same way.

570
00:31:20,057 --> 00:31:22,197
Like, so.

571
00:31:25,005 --> 00:31:29,588
I had a workshop that I did a few years
ago that was about this, because I'd

572
00:31:29,588 --> 00:31:33,890
realized I'd noticed that that's what I
was doing.

573
00:31:36,171 --> 00:31:41,194
And that I had this allergic reaction to
test cases, which was actually daft.

574
00:31:42,175 --> 00:31:46,837
Because there are places where that makes
sense, because I'd made that connection

575
00:31:46,837 --> 00:31:47,657
between

576
00:31:47,798 --> 00:31:53,461
Oh, well, if I'd automated these, suddenly
I think that they're valuable just because

577
00:31:53,461 --> 00:31:56,843
the mechanism has changed.

578
00:31:56,843 --> 00:31:59,745
So there must be something valuable in
there.

579
00:31:59,745 --> 00:32:02,986
And I just need to get over myself and
just figure out, okay, when is it

580
00:32:02,986 --> 00:32:04,027
appropriate?

581
00:32:04,027 --> 00:32:07,909
What are the strengths and weaknesses of
using a test case?

582
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:11,471
And what are the strengths and weaknesses
of exploring?

583
00:32:11,471 --> 00:32:15,333
And when does it make sense to use one or
the other in any given moment?

584
00:32:15,858 --> 00:32:17,499
So I think you're spot on there.

585
00:32:17,499 --> 00:32:20,943
The article I'm definitely gonna write is
around knowledge work.

586
00:32:20,943 --> 00:32:22,965
Cause I wanna explore this idea a bit
more.

587
00:32:22,986 --> 00:32:24,948
So I wanna write some stuff about
knowledge work.

588
00:32:24,948 --> 00:32:29,893
And if you too are so inspired on hearing
us talk about this to create some stuff

589
00:32:29,893 --> 00:32:31,115
about it, please do.

590
00:32:31,115 --> 00:32:34,738
And tag us on all your favorite social
media platforms and we

591
00:32:35,203 --> 00:32:36,904
give you a signal boost for sure.

592
00:32:37,365 --> 00:32:38,045
Absolutely.

593
00:32:38,045 --> 00:32:43,386
And I think just what you said then about
the automated tests, I think it's probably

594
00:32:43,386 --> 00:32:46,147
the same thing as programmers building
software.

595
00:32:46,147 --> 00:32:49,768
Like you said, they don't get judged the
same way and it's probably the same with

596
00:32:49,768 --> 00:32:50,368
us.

597
00:32:50,368 --> 00:32:51,809
And I think you're absolutely right.

598
00:32:51,809 --> 00:32:56,470
There is a hundred percent places for, if
I think of kind of the four key things,

599
00:32:56,470 --> 00:33:01,052
you've kind of got this instruction
script, test case, whatever you want to

600
00:33:01,052 --> 00:33:01,912
call it.

601
00:33:01,912 --> 00:33:03,949
You've got an automated version of that.

602
00:33:03,949 --> 00:33:05,710
which can obviously run itself.

603
00:33:05,710 --> 00:33:10,535
You've then got the exploratory kind of
base exploration, type of testing, and

604
00:33:10,535 --> 00:33:13,957
then you've got tools that can kind of
support it.

605
00:33:14,258 --> 00:33:17,521
And I think it's funny what you said
though, that suddenly it's valuable

606
00:33:17,521 --> 00:33:19,103
because I've automated it.

607
00:33:19,103 --> 00:33:23,587
Yet in some of the training that I do, I
talk about how that a lot of its value has

608
00:33:23,587 --> 00:33:29,392
been lost because if I give you a test
case to run, you don't follow my test

609
00:33:29,392 --> 00:33:30,172
case.

610
00:33:30,667 --> 00:33:31,257
Mm-hmm.

611
00:33:31,257 --> 00:33:35,121
You'll read it and you'll definitely do
what it says, but you're also going to do

612
00:33:35,121 --> 00:33:40,006
50, 100, 200 other things that aren't
written on that test case.

613
00:33:40,006 --> 00:33:42,848
And even more fun, back to knowledge where
you ain't going to tell me that you did

614
00:33:42,848 --> 00:33:46,494
those things either, and you ain't going
to tell anyone else, like...

615
00:33:46,494 --> 00:33:49,948
may not be explicitly aware of it
yourself.

616
00:33:49,948 --> 00:33:51,813
That's the really, really interesting
thing.

617
00:33:51,813 --> 00:33:53,514
Yes, absolutely.

618
00:33:53,514 --> 00:33:54,894
Yeah.

619
00:33:54,894 --> 00:33:58,116
And then you've got, then when you
automate it, you kind of lose that

620
00:33:58,116 --> 00:34:02,778
serendipity aspect of it, but you gain
speed, repetition.

621
00:34:02,778 --> 00:34:06,140
Um, so it's this trade off.

622
00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:08,681
And I think, like you said, it's the same
with a test case.

623
00:34:08,681 --> 00:34:13,943
Sometimes in some domains, you're going to
have to write very lengthy, explicit,

624
00:34:14,403 --> 00:34:16,864
anyone can follow test cases.

625
00:34:17,153 --> 00:34:17,429
Mm-hmm.

626
00:34:17,429 --> 00:34:19,010
And sometimes you might meet in the
middle.

627
00:34:19,010 --> 00:34:21,491
I'm in a context now where we're kind of
meeting in the middle.

628
00:34:21,491 --> 00:34:27,275
We're avoiding writing, you know, we'll
say, um, you know, login as a X user.

629
00:34:27,275 --> 00:34:30,778
We're not defining what X user is or what
the credentials are.

630
00:34:30,778 --> 00:34:34,100
We're telling you to buy a premium
package, but we're not telling you which

631
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:37,343
premium package to buy because it's not
necessarily required.

632
00:34:37,343 --> 00:34:42,846
So we're saving a bit of time by not going
into the very explicit.

633
00:34:43,247 --> 00:34:46,348
But we're, but it's still a lot more than
a charter.

634
00:34:46,457 --> 00:34:46,757
Right.

635
00:34:46,757 --> 00:34:50,520
It's still, it's still a set of
instructions you can follow with a little

636
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,142
bit of knowledge, a little bit of the main
knowledge.

637
00:34:53,482 --> 00:34:56,985
And it's part of our transition or the
journey that we're on to getting it

638
00:34:56,985 --> 00:34:57,986
automated.

639
00:34:57,986 --> 00:35:00,428
There's a lot of hurdles in place right
now.

640
00:35:00,428 --> 00:35:02,910
That means it can't just be automated.

641
00:35:03,431 --> 00:35:10,436
Um, access knowledge, um, working
architecture, working framework.

642
00:35:10,436 --> 00:35:13,959
So we know we're on our journey and not
saying like we're, we're not going to be

643
00:35:13,959 --> 00:35:15,980
in this position for a long time.

644
00:35:16,005 --> 00:35:18,971
We're probably only going to be in this
position for a few months, but in those

645
00:35:18,971 --> 00:35:22,418
few months period, a test case makes
sense.

646
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,803
It fits the problem space.

647
00:35:25,065 --> 00:35:26,026
It helps.

648
00:35:28,215 --> 00:35:29,237
Well said.

649
00:35:29,685 --> 00:35:30,485
Well said.

650
00:35:30,485 --> 00:35:31,065
All right.

651
00:35:31,065 --> 00:35:32,806
So there we go.

652
00:35:32,806 --> 00:35:35,587
That was, uh, the smoke test.

653
00:35:37,008 --> 00:35:42,251
So if you enjoyed listening to the pod,
um, do all the things that a podcast hosts

654
00:35:42,251 --> 00:35:43,392
are meant to say.

655
00:35:43,392 --> 00:35:47,234
Subscribe, follow, like, reshare, tell
your friends, tell your family.

656
00:35:47,234 --> 00:35:53,717
Um, yeah, listen, and you know, give us,
give us any comments, any feedbacks, um,

657
00:35:53,717 --> 00:35:56,810
definitely start conversations around the
topics that we've been

658
00:35:57,734 --> 00:36:02,006
I just wanted to say, if there's anything
that you liked about the podcast, please

659
00:36:02,006 --> 00:36:02,627
send it to me.

660
00:36:02,627 --> 00:36:04,451
If anything you didn't like, send it to
Rich.

661
00:36:05,435 --> 00:36:06,437
That's key.

662
00:36:09,235 --> 00:36:12,260
We need to get a domain set up and I've
got some rules.

663
00:36:12,260 --> 00:36:17,227
I'm going to code some rules, get some,
run it through an AI that says, is this

664
00:36:17,227 --> 00:36:18,428
nice or bad?

665
00:36:18,849 --> 00:36:20,451
Redirect it this way.

666
00:36:21,533 --> 00:36:23,135
Get a little model on the go.

667
00:36:23,610 --> 00:36:26,973
But jokes aside, welcome, because this is
an experiment for us.

668
00:36:26,973 --> 00:36:31,539
We're trying to figure out if this is,
we're just doing this kind of for

669
00:36:31,539 --> 00:36:36,284
ourselves, first and foremost, but we also
want it to be useful for more than us too.

670
00:36:36,284 --> 00:36:40,229
So if you've got any feedback, comments,
concerns, please let us know, we would

671
00:36:40,229 --> 00:36:41,249
appreciate it.

672
00:36:41,998 --> 00:36:44,823
And if you are listening to this or you've
just finished listening to this, you'll be

673
00:36:44,823 --> 00:36:47,107
pleased to know that all the smoke tests
have passed.

674
00:36:47,107 --> 00:36:53,697
Um, so thank you all for listening and
we'll see you at the next one.

675
00:36:54,854 --> 00:36:55,783
See you, everybody.