WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:52.730 Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free where we talk to people who are living 00:00:53.255 --> 00:00:57.975 Self actualized lives, and we'll find out what can we learn from them. 00:00:57.975 --> 00:01:04.050 How can we help ourselves to self actualize More better, more fluidly, 00:01:04.110 --> 00:01:08.020 more joyfully, more happily and also just their amazing life stories. 00:01:08.020 --> 00:01:11.875 And I've got Someone rather incredible with me this week. 00:01:11.875 --> 00:01:18.055 I have Linda Kohanov, who many of you horsey folk out there will know from 00:01:18.370 --> 00:01:20.790 The Tar Equus and her other books. 00:01:21.330 --> 00:01:24.470 But the Tar Equus was the groundbreaking one that I think 00:01:25.165 --> 00:01:29.495 Brought to everybody's attention at the start of the twenty first century. 00:01:29.555 --> 00:01:34.690 Really a new paradigm For looking at the experience of horses through 00:01:34.830 --> 00:01:39.485 a very, very different lens and how that could help in one's life, not 00:01:39.485 --> 00:01:42.555 just within one's equestrian sphere. 00:01:42.555 --> 00:01:47.160 For those of you who do not know, who are not horsey About the Tao of Equis. 00:01:47.160 --> 00:01:49.690 I'm going to let Linda talk to us about that. 00:01:49.690 --> 00:01:53.370 But suffice to say, you probably know that Equis means horse, and 00:01:53.370 --> 00:01:57.745 you probably know that the DAO or the tau means what it means, which, 00:01:57.745 --> 00:01:59.365 of course, is a whole other thing. 00:01:59.585 --> 00:02:04.060 So how could the DAO Well, the towel, one can pronounce it either way. 00:02:04.470 --> 00:02:07.910 That which is not, that which at the moment one thinks of it is no 00:02:07.910 --> 00:02:11.245 longer, That which is everything, that which is everywhere, the 00:02:11.245 --> 00:02:15.325 DAO, and the horse be connected. 00:02:15.325 --> 00:02:18.370 And How on earth might that help us self actualize? 00:02:18.430 --> 00:02:23.685 Well, in fact, it seems that people over many, many generations of humanity for 00:02:23.685 --> 00:02:24.805 at least four or five thousand years. 00:02:24.805 --> 00:02:25.945 We've been seeing a connection. 00:02:26.275 --> 00:02:31.130 And Linda has been bringing it to our attention in our Generation in a 00:02:31.130 --> 00:02:33.470 particularly interesting and fruitful way. 00:02:33.530 --> 00:02:38.090 So without further ado, Linda, welcome on to Live Free Ryd Free, 00:02:38.090 --> 00:02:39.550 and thank you for being here. 00:02:40.735 --> 00:02:40.895 Thank 00:02:40.895 --> 00:02:41.535 Linda Kohanov: you, Rupert. 00:02:41.535 --> 00:02:41.855 It's a 00:02:41.855 --> 00:02:42.355 Rupert Isaacson: pleasure. 00:02:43.935 --> 00:02:48.540 So, Linda, I think I did say a little preamble there, but I 00:02:48.540 --> 00:02:49.760 know I didn't do you justice. 00:02:50.620 --> 00:02:53.740 Could you please tell us who you are and what 00:02:53.740 --> 00:02:54.560 Linda Kohanov: do you do? 00:02:54.831 --> 00:03:00.531 I'm best known for writing five books on what humans can learn from horses. 00:03:00.751 --> 00:03:05.236 So, essentially, There's there's many different elements to this over the years. 00:03:05.236 --> 00:03:08.116 There's a mystical side, a spiritual side. 00:03:08.116 --> 00:03:10.296 There's a personal development side. 00:03:10.881 --> 00:03:12.901 There's a Leadership Factor. 00:03:13.841 --> 00:03:18.341 So these books are really about what horses have to teach people 00:03:18.401 --> 00:03:19.861 about becoming better humans. 00:03:20.196 --> 00:03:25.396 And it seems like that I could write a whole encyclopedia of wisdom that 00:03:25.396 --> 00:03:29.316 horses keep teaching all of us, that we keep seeing from different angles. 00:03:29.316 --> 00:03:34.221 And As we go deeper, we realize that they have a lot more to teach us, I 00:03:34.221 --> 00:03:36.001 believe, than we have to teach them. 00:03:37.421 --> 00:03:40.676 Rupert Isaacson: If you were going to Preach to the unconverted. 00:03:40.976 --> 00:03:44.816 I think that those of us who are horse obsessives, and I know a lot of 00:03:44.816 --> 00:03:48.401 the people listening are, absolutely would See the connection immediately. 00:03:48.461 --> 00:03:52.381 But imagine that you had really no connection to or 00:03:52.381 --> 00:03:53.821 contact with horses at all. 00:03:53.821 --> 00:03:54.721 Why the horse? 00:03:54.781 --> 00:03:59.836 What makes the horse So special in the relationship between the the 00:03:59.836 --> 00:04:03.456 human and, if you like, the universe and the cosmos and consciousness. 00:04:03.756 --> 00:04:07.611 What's special About this relationship with this animal. 00:04:10.391 --> 00:04:14.526 Linda Kohanov: It goes back thousands of years, and there's a lot of Scientific 00:04:14.526 --> 00:04:19.346 evidence now to show that the animals that we, quote, unquote, domesticated 00:04:19.646 --> 00:04:24.911 were actually domesticating us as well, that we we coevolved With these animals. 00:04:24.911 --> 00:04:29.091 And there are certain things that you learn from dogs and cats and birds, 00:04:29.791 --> 00:04:31.871 certain ways you're affected by them. 00:04:31.871 --> 00:04:34.426 But most dogs, Cats and birds are actually predators. 00:04:35.126 --> 00:04:39.146 So when you come to a really large powerful animal like the horse, 00:04:39.446 --> 00:04:43.681 they actually teach you how to be Powerful, but in a non predatory way. 00:04:44.141 --> 00:04:48.141 And I had to after a while the word the term non predatory because a lot of 00:04:48.141 --> 00:04:50.136 times people, These are large herbivores. 00:04:50.196 --> 00:04:51.656 They're vegetarians, obviously. 00:04:52.036 --> 00:04:55.476 And a lot of times, they're preyed upon in nature, but they're fully 00:04:55.476 --> 00:04:57.176 capable of protecting themselves. 00:04:57.491 --> 00:05:01.671 Predators very rarely will attack a full grown horse. 00:05:02.131 --> 00:05:05.491 Usually, they're slinking around the edges looking for the young horse or 00:05:05.491 --> 00:05:09.136 the injured horse we're the horse who's wandered off without paying attention. 00:05:09.136 --> 00:05:16.131 So large nonpredatory animals like horses are capable Of protecting 00:05:16.191 --> 00:05:20.451 themselves and even performing altruistic acts to protect other herd members. 00:05:21.071 --> 00:05:24.596 For many years, especially in the natural horsemanship field, People 00:05:24.596 --> 00:05:28.476 would talk about horses being prey animals and humans being predators, and 00:05:28.476 --> 00:05:31.856 this is where a lot of the dysfunction happens in these relationships. 00:05:32.236 --> 00:05:36.171 And that's True to a certain extent, but humans actually are omnivores. 00:05:36.231 --> 00:05:39.191 We have the eyes forward like a predator, of course. 00:05:39.191 --> 00:05:43.026 And we can strategize, and we can Stock, in other words. 00:05:43.566 --> 00:05:48.206 And at the same time, we have the teeth of a vegetarian, a 00:05:48.206 --> 00:05:49.906 digestive system of an omnivore. 00:05:50.046 --> 00:05:55.011 We actually have Aspects of both predatory and nonpredatory wisdom. 00:05:55.311 --> 00:05:59.331 And if we can stop over identifying with predatory behaviors 00:06:00.016 --> 00:06:01.716 They were used in conquest. 00:06:02.256 --> 00:06:08.516 When you think about the whole world being settled by conquest and enslaving other 00:06:09.001 --> 00:06:14.701 Races and enslaving other animals, you realize that there's been an overemphasis 00:06:15.081 --> 00:06:18.966 on predatory behavior in our culture throughout the world Because it's all 00:06:18.966 --> 00:06:23.386 about, you know, stepping in and taking over the lands and rights of others. 00:06:24.166 --> 00:06:28.851 So we've grown up in this Predatory environment, but that is not who we are. 00:06:29.071 --> 00:06:32.291 We actually have a lot more potential than that. 00:06:32.431 --> 00:06:35.596 And From the horse, we learn how to be powerful. 00:06:35.596 --> 00:06:38.176 You have to be powerful if you're around a horse. 00:06:38.396 --> 00:06:40.096 You can't be a shrinking violet. 00:06:40.396 --> 00:06:43.981 You you can find Courses that will take care of you if you're if you're 00:06:43.981 --> 00:06:45.921 really looking, and that's that's fine. 00:06:46.221 --> 00:06:50.046 But if you're really gonna step in as you have been a horse trainer and rider 00:06:50.126 --> 00:06:54.686 So you know you have to engage a kind of power and presence, but it can't be 00:06:54.686 --> 00:06:57.086 predatory or the horse won't trust you. 00:06:57.086 --> 00:06:59.326 And so they teach us that. 00:06:59.326 --> 00:07:03.951 And For my fourth book called The Power of the Herd, and it was looking 00:07:03.951 --> 00:07:08.691 at a nonpredatory approach to social intelligence leadership and innovation, 00:07:09.456 --> 00:07:16.516 I was researching the presence of the horse in various cultures throughout time. 00:07:17.141 --> 00:07:22.441 And one of the things I noticed was that many like, an out actually, 00:07:22.581 --> 00:07:27.406 outrageous percentage of innovative leaders Across multiple cultures, 00:07:27.406 --> 00:07:30.546 we're also either exceptional riders or exceptional trainers. 00:07:31.406 --> 00:07:35.666 So and a lot of people don't realize that the Buddha was an exceptional horseman. 00:07:36.431 --> 00:07:41.311 And when I really looked at his background and began to discover more 00:07:41.311 --> 00:07:46.166 about this, and I do talk about this in the power of the herd, It struck me 00:07:46.546 --> 00:07:51.366 that a lot of the skills that the Buddha perfected that he later translated 00:07:51.586 --> 00:07:55.661 into meditation and mindfulness Were actually things you really need if 00:07:55.661 --> 00:07:57.761 you're gonna function with horses. 00:07:58.461 --> 00:08:01.421 So I feel like, in some sense, the horses were teaching him a lot 00:08:01.421 --> 00:08:04.936 of the things that eventually He translated into purely human terms. 00:08:05.396 --> 00:08:07.816 But there's also people like George Washington. 00:08:07.876 --> 00:08:12.141 In the US, I don't think there's any way On the planet that we would have 00:08:12.141 --> 00:08:14.161 won that war without George Washington. 00:08:14.541 --> 00:08:17.421 And George Washington was considered one of the best 00:08:17.421 --> 00:08:19.361 horse trainers in the colonies. 00:08:19.796 --> 00:08:23.876 And you can see from the way he operated with people that he had that knowledge 00:08:23.876 --> 00:08:25.816 that he learned from the horses. 00:08:26.516 --> 00:08:29.016 Winston Churchill was an exceptional equestrian. 00:08:30.021 --> 00:08:34.501 We often think of him as this this beefy guy smoking a cigar all the time. 00:08:34.501 --> 00:08:37.881 But when he was younger, he was in the cavalry, and he was a great rider. 00:08:38.156 --> 00:08:40.656 I'm not sure about his horse training orientation. 00:08:41.436 --> 00:08:45.656 You know, Elizabeth the first, Elizabeth the second Catherine 00:08:45.716 --> 00:08:49.001 the Great, Ronald Reagan. 00:08:49.861 --> 00:08:53.881 Even if you don't think of him as somebody that you're in sync with politically, 00:08:53.941 --> 00:08:57.746 in including any of these people, actually, What you can see is that 00:08:57.746 --> 00:09:02.966 his presence and his ability to engage with and motivate large populations 00:09:03.106 --> 00:09:08.601 to follow him in a certain direction Is very much like what happens when 00:09:08.601 --> 00:09:10.921 you learn how to ride and train well. 00:09:10.921 --> 00:09:15.976 And he was a very fine rider And spent a lot of time riding at his ranch when he 00:09:15.976 --> 00:09:17.676 was taking time off from the presidency. 00:09:17.896 --> 00:09:20.696 So there's just multiple examples of this. 00:09:20.696 --> 00:09:25.371 And so I've really been looking at this throughout history. 00:09:25.991 --> 00:09:29.931 One of the other elements too is that from a mystical viewpoint or spiritual 00:09:29.991 --> 00:09:35.596 viewpoint, In multiple cultures throughout the world, in multiple mythic complexes 00:09:35.896 --> 00:09:41.461 and religions, the horse is considered not only a sacred gift From the gods. 00:09:42.001 --> 00:09:48.666 But the horse is also an animal that can take People from this world to the other 00:09:48.666 --> 00:09:50.846 world and bring them safely back again. 00:09:51.466 --> 00:09:56.021 So a lot of mythology involves forces taking someone To the other world. 00:09:56.021 --> 00:10:00.841 And by that, we mean other states of consciousness or even other dimensions 00:10:01.061 --> 00:10:02.596 and then actually bringing them back. 00:10:02.676 --> 00:10:07.016 So the horse is like a psychopomp and a guide throughout history 00:10:07.156 --> 00:10:09.096 and and around the world. 00:10:09.796 --> 00:10:15.821 So this is why I find It's so rich to bring horse wisdom into 00:10:15.821 --> 00:10:18.621 the human world because they have things to teach that we've lost 00:10:18.621 --> 00:10:21.201 sight of in our city based culture. 00:10:22.366 --> 00:10:25.806 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting what you're putting your your finger on there. 00:10:25.806 --> 00:10:33.171 Obviously, you know, any aristocratic or military leader Since we domesticated 00:10:33.391 --> 00:10:38.031 the horse has, to a large degree, been a horseman because we know that this 00:10:38.031 --> 00:10:42.516 process of conquest that you talked about happened largely On the backs of horses 00:10:43.006 --> 00:10:44.466 which I've always found intriguing. 00:10:45.326 --> 00:10:49.646 Your you point out that, you know, you need to have the power 00:10:49.646 --> 00:10:52.461 presence To affect a horse. 00:10:52.601 --> 00:10:56.521 At the same time, if you bring the predatory aspect of that to the 00:10:56.521 --> 00:10:59.081 horse, the horse, as you say, will not trust you because he's gonna think 00:10:59.081 --> 00:11:00.526 quite rightly that we might eat him. 00:11:01.276 --> 00:11:03.436 And he'd be right, by the way, because if we got hungry enough, 00:11:03.436 --> 00:11:04.636 we'd eat every horse in our barn. 00:11:04.636 --> 00:11:08.576 We wouldn't be happy about it, but they're right to be a little bit skeptical of us. 00:11:09.546 --> 00:11:14.091 But Then, of course, we've taken this predatory behavior to our 00:11:14.091 --> 00:11:16.911 fellow human on the back of a horse. 00:11:17.426 --> 00:11:18.786 This we know that we've done. 00:11:18.786 --> 00:11:23.426 However, although history recounts that well, I I feel that you put 00:11:23.426 --> 00:11:27.641 your finger on something else there, Which is many of these leaders 00:11:27.641 --> 00:11:29.021 were not necessarily warlords. 00:11:29.481 --> 00:11:33.901 And you started with the Buddha, and it's interesting that you say that Siddhartha, 00:11:34.456 --> 00:11:38.236 As he would have been as the prince before he became what we know as the Buddha. 00:11:38.536 --> 00:11:41.416 I hadn't thought about it in that regard before, but, yes, you must be 00:11:41.416 --> 00:11:47.671 absolutely right because if you were a Prince of North Indian, Southern 00:11:47.731 --> 00:11:50.531 Nepalese kingdom at that time. 00:11:50.531 --> 00:11:55.271 You would have de facto been a horseman both chariots and riding. 00:11:55.271 --> 00:11:57.911 He there's no way he could have not been with his upbringing. 00:11:57.911 --> 00:12:00.551 So you're absolutely it's it's intriguing that you bring that up. 00:12:00.551 --> 00:12:01.691 So here's my question. 00:12:03.136 --> 00:12:04.676 Because we have to get over. 00:12:05.536 --> 00:12:09.856 We have to be powerful without being predatory in order to 00:12:09.856 --> 00:12:11.156 be effective with horses. 00:12:12.122 --> 00:12:13.981 Do horses teach us tact? 00:12:14.041 --> 00:12:15.741 Do horses teach us diplomacy? 00:12:20.496 --> 00:12:24.836 Linda Kohanov: If if you're really going to have a horse form a real partnership 00:12:24.896 --> 00:12:26.836 with you, you have to learn that. 00:12:27.171 --> 00:12:31.971 And you have to learn that tact and diplomacy at a at 00:12:31.971 --> 00:12:33.751 a wholly nonverbal level. 00:12:33.971 --> 00:12:35.891 So it's not just about what you're saying. 00:12:35.891 --> 00:12:40.946 It's your Whole body that's radiating and then also responding 00:12:41.246 --> 00:12:44.446 thoughtfully from moment to moment to what's going on with the horse. 00:12:44.446 --> 00:12:50.512 And so In the nineteen nineties, psychologists determined that 00:12:50.512 --> 00:12:53.812 only about ten percent of human communication is verbal. 00:12:54.746 --> 00:12:57.786 Ninety percent of the messages that we send back and forth to each 00:12:57.786 --> 00:12:59.726 other are in that nonverbal range. 00:12:59.866 --> 00:13:03.306 And a lot of times, people now just rely on words, and a lot of times, 00:13:03.306 --> 00:13:06.871 they're conveying Something completely the opposite with their body language. 00:13:07.411 --> 00:13:10.531 When you're with a horse, you have to learn how to have an 00:13:10.531 --> 00:13:14.836 intention and a focus And have your entire body be in sync with that. 00:13:15.216 --> 00:13:18.836 So if you're conflicted, the horse is just not gonna respond as well. 00:13:19.136 --> 00:13:22.882 So Bringing all of that into play is essential. 00:13:23.661 --> 00:13:31.807 And, really, there you know, the average rider Can engage serious forms of 00:13:32.666 --> 00:13:35.486 maybe even disturbing levels of tack. 00:13:35.791 --> 00:13:41.091 And I mean by this, you know, saddles and bridles and spurs and webs to 00:13:41.471 --> 00:13:45.827 motivate a horse just out of the horse just trying to get along in the world. 00:13:45.827 --> 00:13:48.466 But if you're gonna have a real partnership with the horse, you're 00:13:48.466 --> 00:13:51.106 actually gonna be transformed from the inside out, and it's 00:13:51.106 --> 00:13:54.511 going to affect Your entire life. 00:13:55.971 --> 00:14:04.756 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that this happens Because in order to really achieve 00:14:04.896 --> 00:14:14.051 that union with a horse, The horse sort of forces us to engage with our higher self. 00:14:16.646 --> 00:14:17.146 Linda Kohanov: Absolutely. 00:14:17.206 --> 00:14:21.226 And it it it is an interesting combination with horses too because it's dual. 00:14:22.006 --> 00:14:25.501 So you have to engage your higher self, Ultimately. 00:14:25.641 --> 00:14:28.301 But it has to be fully grounded in this world. 00:14:28.871 --> 00:14:33.016 So they they actually teach us a grounded spirituality. 00:14:33.096 --> 00:14:33.596 Duality. 00:14:34.536 --> 00:14:40.216 And the fact that they lure us into other states of consciousness or other 00:14:40.216 --> 00:14:44.991 worlds Doesn't mean that we are not supposed to be here now completely 00:14:45.131 --> 00:14:49.151 embodied and focused on the moment when we're interacting with them physically. 00:14:49.726 --> 00:14:54.126 You could sit over a fence with a horse and have the horse essentially take you 00:14:54.126 --> 00:14:59.181 into an altered state of consciousness where you can kind of Lose track of 00:14:59.401 --> 00:15:03.502 your body and where you're at and really go off into these other worlds. 00:15:03.562 --> 00:15:07.196 But if you're gonna interact with a horse And if you're gonna go inside the 00:15:07.196 --> 00:15:11.676 fence and ride that horse or lead that horse somewhere, you have to be able to 00:15:11.676 --> 00:15:13.856 engage some level of embodied presence. 00:15:14.476 --> 00:15:20.791 So They're constantly making us exercise both sides in in ways that I think 00:15:21.252 --> 00:15:26.406 other people and animals rarely do As a way of interacting with you yeah. 00:15:26.406 --> 00:15:28.966 Embodied spirituality is what they're bringing 00:15:28.966 --> 00:15:29.046 to 00:15:29.046 --> 00:15:29.546 Rupert Isaacson: us. 00:15:29.766 --> 00:15:35.262 This this brings me to another thought, which is that Many people, I think, are 00:15:35.262 --> 00:15:39.762 unaware that the horse was, I think, the the last riding animal to be domesticated 00:15:39.901 --> 00:15:42.001 or, as you say, maybe domesticated us. 00:15:42.296 --> 00:15:46.236 I know that we started with the reindeer, which is a relatively easy 00:15:46.536 --> 00:15:50.056 horse as long as you weigh sort of under a hundred animal as long as 00:15:50.056 --> 00:15:51.436 you weigh under a hundred pounds. 00:15:51.701 --> 00:15:54.041 Then I think it goes to the camel. 00:15:55.141 --> 00:16:01.116 Then I think it's the I think the ass and the elephant are roughly Concurrent. 00:16:01.656 --> 00:16:02.536 And then it's the horse. 00:16:02.536 --> 00:16:05.416 And I've often wondered about that, why the horse was so late. 00:16:05.416 --> 00:16:07.516 And then, of course well, yeah. 00:16:07.711 --> 00:16:10.451 The horse works, of course, in three dimensions, and the horse 00:16:10.511 --> 00:16:12.611 is this really complicated animal. 00:16:14.061 --> 00:16:16.701 mIght some might say, well, an elephant's really complicated, but I 00:16:16.701 --> 00:16:20.326 think an elephant's Brain is a way of looking at the world is perhaps closer 00:16:20.326 --> 00:16:22.986 to ours and more intuitively ours. 00:16:23.366 --> 00:16:30.491 So what is it about the horse that we Why why do we create this mythology around 00:16:31.271 --> 00:16:35.796 the horse and the spirituality of the horse in regard with us And not these 00:16:35.796 --> 00:16:42.361 other riding animals that we've also had these long relationships with because One 00:16:42.361 --> 00:16:47.801 does not find quite the same mythological engagement and quite the same spiritual 00:16:47.801 --> 00:16:52.916 engagement with these other animals As with the horse, why do you think that is? 00:16:54.736 --> 00:16:57.316 Linda Kohanov: Well, I think they were working on us creative and 00:16:57.481 --> 00:17:00.761 Creatively and spiritually long before we were capable of riding them. 00:17:00.761 --> 00:17:05.001 They're just so athletic and so fast, and you have to really know what you're doing 00:17:05.001 --> 00:17:07.096 if you're gonna try to ride one of them. 00:17:07.256 --> 00:17:10.456 But the interesting thing is that our relationship with the horse 00:17:10.456 --> 00:17:14.076 goes back thousands of years before we were able to ride them. 00:17:14.776 --> 00:17:22.282 And There is significant evidence now that they were drawing us out years 00:17:22.342 --> 00:17:26.522 before we had the technology to get on their backs and and ride them. 00:17:26.742 --> 00:17:32.347 And the reason I say this is because When we began to understand the the 00:17:32.347 --> 00:17:37.947 cave art in France and the Lascaux cave and the another older cave 00:17:37.947 --> 00:17:39.932 that That escapes me at the moment. 00:17:40.102 --> 00:17:44.762 There's Lascaux, and I can't remember at this moment. 00:17:46.117 --> 00:17:46.697 The Chauvet. 00:17:46.917 --> 00:17:48.617 The Lascaux and Chauvet caves. 00:17:49.717 --> 00:17:58.012 In these caves, you see this strange evolution where You have an obsession 00:17:58.472 --> 00:18:00.412 with cave art related to horses. 00:18:01.272 --> 00:18:04.012 And they thought at first that people were hunting horses. 00:18:04.206 --> 00:18:09.247 But as it as it turns out, as they really started to look at bones left around the 00:18:09.247 --> 00:18:13.907 caves, they found out that the correlation between animals eaten and the animals 00:18:14.042 --> 00:18:15.982 Painted wasn't wasn't really related. 00:18:16.442 --> 00:18:20.622 So there's a lot of deer meat and deer bone not deer meat anymore, obviously, 00:18:20.842 --> 00:18:22.837 but deer bones around those Caves. 00:18:22.837 --> 00:18:25.717 They were eating deer, but they weren't eating so many horses, but 00:18:25.717 --> 00:18:27.097 they were obsessed with horses. 00:18:27.637 --> 00:18:32.581 And even to the point where they were By the time you go from the Chauvet cave 00:18:32.992 --> 00:18:36.671 which is much older, it's like thirty thousand years old, to the Lascaux cave, 00:18:36.671 --> 00:18:42.007 which is about, I guess, twenty thousand years old, You see that that they're 00:18:42.007 --> 00:18:44.667 painting even more horses later on. 00:18:45.367 --> 00:18:50.092 And in the Chauvet cave in particular, which is the older one, They have 00:18:50.712 --> 00:18:55.912 two alcoves, separate alcoves with horses in them set apart from all 00:18:55.912 --> 00:18:58.171 the other animals, lions, rhinos. 00:18:59.107 --> 00:19:01.747 They they don't really have wolves painted in these caves, 00:19:01.747 --> 00:19:03.286 by the way, interestingly enough. 00:19:03.906 --> 00:19:13.502 And so In these alcoves, horses are coming out and looking at you as if they are 00:19:13.502 --> 00:19:18.347 stepping Forward and engaging eye contact with you and really looking at you. 00:19:18.347 --> 00:19:25.112 And this looks to me like the the initial somebody was really Trying to convey 00:19:25.572 --> 00:19:29.892 that initial moment where a horse reached out to us and didn't run off and then 00:19:29.892 --> 00:19:34.837 began to invite us into a relationship On the ground for thousands of years 00:19:35.056 --> 00:19:36.916 before we were able to ride them. 00:19:37.296 --> 00:19:38.656 And there's a lot 00:19:38.656 --> 00:19:39.937 Rupert Isaacson: of Go ahead. 00:19:39.937 --> 00:19:40.097 Sorry. 00:19:40.097 --> 00:19:41.156 I didn't mean to interrupt 00:19:41.457 --> 00:19:41.957 Linda Kohanov: you. 00:19:42.312 --> 00:19:42.392 No. 00:19:42.392 --> 00:19:43.512 It's okay. 00:19:43.512 --> 00:19:46.792 I was just blown away when I when I began to realize that. 00:19:46.792 --> 00:19:50.367 And I I recently revised the DAO of Equis. 00:19:50.367 --> 00:19:53.267 It's gonna come out in a revised form in June. 00:19:53.407 --> 00:19:58.552 And so I went ahead and added this right in the introduction To talk about how 00:19:59.332 --> 00:20:03.652 we have this perception of the horse as being an evolution that happened later, 00:20:03.652 --> 00:20:08.997 much later, But it seems like it was working on us for thousands of years 00:20:09.697 --> 00:20:15.472 and probably changed certain members of the culture who were lured Out of 00:20:16.172 --> 00:20:20.332 early agricultural settlements where horses might have been attracted to 00:20:20.332 --> 00:20:25.347 people learning how to plant grain and things like that And luring some people 00:20:25.347 --> 00:20:28.226 out into this nomadic lifestyle Mhmm. 00:20:28.387 --> 00:20:33.241 That eventually caused people to Form these interspecies societies. 00:20:33.241 --> 00:20:36.842 And I find the reindeer people I talked about the reindeer people in 00:20:36.842 --> 00:20:42.966 the Dow of Equals because I found them very interesting In that some of 00:20:42.966 --> 00:20:47.047 the reports anthropological reports state that these people consider 00:20:47.047 --> 00:20:48.747 themselves half human, half reindeer. 00:20:49.052 --> 00:20:49.552 Yeah. 00:20:49.932 --> 00:20:52.972 And there are certain horse cultures where they consider 00:20:52.972 --> 00:20:54.992 themselves half human, half horse. 00:20:55.532 --> 00:20:59.366 So a lot of these cultures you find, They're they truly were 00:20:59.747 --> 00:21:03.127 engaged in an equal partnership that was mutually transformational. 00:21:04.547 --> 00:21:05.427 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting. 00:21:05.427 --> 00:21:07.652 There's a couple of things which spring to mind here. 00:21:07.711 --> 00:21:13.091 You talk about an animal species domesticating the human. 00:21:13.951 --> 00:21:19.316 And I'm I'm as I'm sure you're aware of and some of our listeners may be 00:21:19.316 --> 00:21:27.051 aware of, there is a Fairly well founded theory that civilization as we know 00:21:27.051 --> 00:21:32.886 it, I e agriculture and industry that comes out of agriculture, Is based 00:21:32.886 --> 00:21:38.426 upon us being domesticated by a certain type of grass that we call wheat. 00:21:38.646 --> 00:21:45.211 And that this happened, Oh, between twenty and fifteen thousand years ago, 00:21:45.751 --> 00:21:49.591 somewhere in what's now Kurdistan, you know, in those upper plateaus at 00:21:49.591 --> 00:21:52.656 the the source of the the Euphrates. 00:21:52.956 --> 00:22:00.256 And that this particular type of hardy grass developed a relationship with us 00:22:00.256 --> 00:22:02.356 as much as a relationship with them. 00:22:02.736 --> 00:22:06.881 What I haven't considered until now, and this is intriguing to me, Is of 00:22:06.881 --> 00:22:11.076 course, what would have been eating that grass if not herds of wild horses? 00:22:11.396 --> 00:22:15.736 And we know that those areas of Eastern Anatolia and the Southern 00:22:15.736 --> 00:22:19.391 Caucasus Going up around to the north of the Black Sea and so on. 00:22:19.391 --> 00:22:23.411 This is sort of the cradle of where we find the earliest horse civilizations. 00:22:24.031 --> 00:22:24.771 Makes sense. 00:22:24.911 --> 00:22:35.276 So Did the did the grass domesticate us and then the main species 00:22:36.871 --> 00:22:41.611 subsisting upon that grass, then take that domestication further. 00:22:41.991 --> 00:22:48.366 And then another question comes to mind from that, Which is it's often assumed 00:22:48.586 --> 00:22:56.821 that herding herding of herbivores predates Farming as a sort of interim 00:22:56.961 --> 00:23:03.576 period between straight up hunting and gathering and, Planting of crops. 00:23:03.716 --> 00:23:08.596 But what you're suggesting there is a potential other way around, which is 00:23:08.596 --> 00:23:12.991 that perhaps we began to be domesticated Seasonally by some of these plants. 00:23:13.611 --> 00:23:17.691 Then some of the animals coming in and being attracted to those made us 00:23:17.691 --> 00:23:19.551 think, perhaps we could herd these. 00:23:20.426 --> 00:23:25.466 wHat do you think about that as a as a motif, really? 00:23:25.466 --> 00:23:28.441 We don't have to say it's a belief because don't have to believe one way or the 00:23:28.441 --> 00:23:31.641 other, but these things are interesting concepts to motifs for the brain. 00:23:31.641 --> 00:23:34.221 What what what do you feel feel and think about that? 00:23:36.036 --> 00:23:37.636 Linda Kohanov: There are people who say that outright. 00:23:37.636 --> 00:23:39.576 There are scientists who say that outright. 00:23:40.596 --> 00:23:51.016 So it's it's what I call the OASIS theory is that humans learned how to plant these 00:23:51.016 --> 00:23:53.181 grasses On purpose and take care of them. 00:23:53.181 --> 00:23:55.181 They had to guard them, you know, because there are other 00:23:55.181 --> 00:23:57.101 animals coming in to eat them. 00:23:57.101 --> 00:24:01.386 And and they have to be more settled in order to stick around to guard these 00:24:01.466 --> 00:24:03.246 Plants as they're starting to grow. 00:24:03.946 --> 00:24:09.706 And as they're sitting there guarding the grasses that are growing the 00:24:09.706 --> 00:24:14.821 wheat, Then animals are coming up and they're chasing them off, but they're 00:24:14.821 --> 00:24:16.361 starting to observe their behavior. 00:24:16.741 --> 00:24:19.721 And sometimes they're chasing them down and eating them. 00:24:20.176 --> 00:24:23.156 And then you have some people just sitting out guarding these 00:24:23.296 --> 00:24:27.136 these these wheat fields, and they start to notice the horses and 00:24:27.136 --> 00:24:29.156 and become more intrigued by them. 00:24:30.801 --> 00:24:36.081 And having less of a a hunter mentality and more of a naturalist mentality if 00:24:36.081 --> 00:24:37.456 you're guarding the weed like that. 00:24:38.096 --> 00:24:40.196 And so they're observing the horse behavior. 00:24:40.336 --> 00:24:42.836 They're they're seeing young horses. 00:24:43.056 --> 00:24:44.816 They're starting to reach out to them. 00:24:44.816 --> 00:24:47.661 They the horses are Getting used to their presence. 00:24:48.761 --> 00:24:53.101 And, eventually, maybe somebody actually holds out a hand of grain 00:24:53.161 --> 00:24:57.696 to feed one of the Younger horses that they've they're enamored with. 00:24:57.696 --> 00:25:02.096 And then through that interaction, eventually, the horses would have 00:25:02.096 --> 00:25:05.921 lured Some of those people, some of those more adventurous people 00:25:06.381 --> 00:25:08.321 into this nomadic lifestyle. 00:25:09.101 --> 00:25:15.736 So there are actually Scientific theories that suggest that we had 00:25:15.736 --> 00:25:19.771 early agriculture, and we started to move towards Settled lifestyles, 00:25:19.771 --> 00:25:25.391 at least semi settled, to take care of these agricultural situations. 00:25:25.611 --> 00:25:30.146 And then Some people were lured into a nomadic lifestyle with the animals 00:25:30.146 --> 00:25:32.546 that were attracted to those settings. 00:25:32.546 --> 00:25:35.426 So that there's agriculture and then there's two branches. 00:25:35.426 --> 00:25:39.361 There's a There's a kind of agriculture that headed toward city 00:25:39.361 --> 00:25:43.041 based lifestyles, and then there's a kind of agriculture that headed 00:25:43.041 --> 00:25:46.746 toward nomadic pastoral lifestyles, And they branched off from there. 00:25:47.606 --> 00:25:47.926 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:25:47.926 --> 00:25:48.426 Interesting. 00:25:48.646 --> 00:25:55.961 And your your point about Animals domesticating us. 00:25:56.501 --> 00:26:00.351 I have actually I have actually witnessed and experienced this twice. 00:26:02.121 --> 00:26:07.056 Those listeners who know my pre Autism background. 00:26:07.196 --> 00:26:12.076 I I was a human rights activist and journalist in the Kalahari area of 00:26:12.076 --> 00:26:13.436 Southern Africa for a long time. 00:26:13.436 --> 00:26:15.296 My family is all Southern African. 00:26:15.451 --> 00:26:20.331 So I lived with Khoi San hunter gatherers because we were working on their land 00:26:20.331 --> 00:26:24.986 claim issues to get them legal title To their ancestral lands in South 00:26:24.986 --> 00:26:26.846 Africa and Botswana for many years. 00:26:27.026 --> 00:26:36.561 And so I had a couple of experiences there Where, for example, we were 00:26:36.561 --> 00:26:42.236 making camp in an area that Had almost no human footprint at all. 00:26:42.856 --> 00:26:49.411 And within about ten days, the jackals of that era, the black backed jackals, 00:26:49.631 --> 00:26:53.791 which would be quite quickly beginning to circle our camp because they could 00:26:53.791 --> 00:26:58.176 smell the goodies, Were at the point where they would come and accept meat 00:26:58.176 --> 00:27:00.756 from the hand, I'd say, within ten days. 00:27:01.296 --> 00:27:06.931 And but all of the initial overtures in terms of The charming, almost puppy 00:27:06.931 --> 00:27:11.921 like behavior and invitations, the sort of getting down with the front legs 00:27:11.921 --> 00:27:15.356 and then looking up and cocking the ears and cocking the head To the side. 00:27:15.496 --> 00:27:18.056 They're sort of what we think of as invitation puppy like 00:27:18.056 --> 00:27:19.656 invitations to play from a dog. 00:27:19.656 --> 00:27:21.436 They were exhibiting that towards us. 00:27:22.536 --> 00:27:27.461 And, So did did we domesticate them, or did they domesticate us? 00:27:27.461 --> 00:27:32.396 Then I had a similar experience with birds of prey, Also in Africa, Zimbabwe 00:27:32.726 --> 00:27:37.946 where my father's from where we were canoeing down the banks of the Zambezi 00:27:38.886 --> 00:27:41.441 for And it's sort of extended time. 00:27:41.771 --> 00:27:45.931 I did it once, and then I sort of went back and did it again a couple of times. 00:27:45.931 --> 00:27:51.056 And What happened was that the guides had learned that or rather the 00:27:51.056 --> 00:27:53.491 kites, Bode Praetis called a kite. 00:27:53.491 --> 00:27:57.831 Had learned that where the camps generally were along the river, 00:27:58.291 --> 00:28:00.151 if they circled there'd be stuff. 00:28:00.151 --> 00:28:05.221 And the guide soon learned that they could throw bits of meat up into the air, and 00:28:05.221 --> 00:28:07.156 the kites would swoop in and grab it. 00:28:07.236 --> 00:28:12.616 And then the kites began to swoop in this playful way to, if you like, to 00:28:12.916 --> 00:28:16.781 instigate the very, very intelligent birds, The guides into doing this. 00:28:16.781 --> 00:28:18.321 Who domesticated who? 00:28:19.931 --> 00:28:23.051 I would have said until recently, well, we domesticated them. 00:28:23.051 --> 00:28:26.066 We we were in this place, we as humans, And then we did this. 00:28:26.066 --> 00:28:29.346 They they were lured by our, you know, goodies, and then we did 00:28:29.346 --> 00:28:32.246 behaviors that domesticated them, but perhaps that's not the case. 00:28:34.561 --> 00:28:40.801 If that's not the case, what do you think would have motivated and prompted the 00:28:40.801 --> 00:28:46.426 horse To come and engage with an upright ape with the eyes in front, which clearly 00:28:46.486 --> 00:28:48.826 is a predator as well as an omnivore. 00:28:49.126 --> 00:28:50.246 We absolutely do hunt. 00:28:50.246 --> 00:28:52.071 I've, you know, hunted with the bushmen. 00:28:52.641 --> 00:28:54.821 And they for example, they will hunt zebra. 00:28:55.041 --> 00:28:57.651 So, they would've we would've hunted equines, you know, up 00:28:57.651 --> 00:28:58.871 here in the Northern Hemisphere. 00:29:00.036 --> 00:29:05.736 So given that we did probably hunt them, what do you feel 00:29:07.211 --> 00:29:09.631 Made them reach out to us. 00:29:09.691 --> 00:29:13.151 Why would they reach out to us given that we're a dangerous lot? 00:29:15.756 --> 00:29:17.836 Linda Kohanov: Well, I think they were reaching out to people who were 00:29:17.836 --> 00:29:19.296 less dangerous in the beginning. 00:29:19.516 --> 00:29:21.770 So you have people who have more of a hunter mentality. 00:29:21.770 --> 00:29:26.301 But, you know, as you know, in But, you know, as you know, in a lot of 00:29:26.301 --> 00:29:29.821 these cultures, they have hunters have tremendous respect Yeah. 00:29:29.901 --> 00:29:30.701 For the prey. 00:29:30.701 --> 00:29:33.021 They're not they're not torturing them. 00:29:33.021 --> 00:29:36.386 They're not Hunting them to virtual extinction. 00:29:36.526 --> 00:29:40.526 There is a there is a symbiotic relationship, and that's that is 00:29:40.526 --> 00:29:45.481 even related to the prayers that they say before they hunt, after they've 00:29:45.481 --> 00:29:49.081 killed an animal, before they eat an animal, they're thanking this animal. 00:29:49.081 --> 00:29:52.236 There is this feeling of a mutual support system. 00:29:52.236 --> 00:29:57.276 And and horses are being used are used to being hunted by all kinds of animals. 00:29:57.276 --> 00:30:03.151 And when you see Pictures now on YouTube or videos on YouTube in 00:30:03.151 --> 00:30:08.826 Africa, you see that a lot of times, these large herbivores, Whether 00:30:08.826 --> 00:30:13.566 they're zebras or wildebeest, will live in the midst of predators. 00:30:13.706 --> 00:30:16.826 And there will be predators milling around in the vicinity, 00:30:16.826 --> 00:30:18.931 and they don't automatically Right. 00:30:19.231 --> 00:30:23.631 So they have some herd members acting as sentinels, and they can read the 00:30:23.631 --> 00:30:27.136 behavior of a predator when it's on the prowl and a predator when it's just 00:30:27.456 --> 00:30:33.156 Relaxing or wandering through the field on their way to a good nap somewhere else. 00:30:33.776 --> 00:30:38.711 And so Horses and other animals that are herbivores have thousands of years 00:30:38.711 --> 00:30:43.031 of living among predators and being able to tell when they're in that 00:30:43.031 --> 00:30:44.811 hunting mode and when they're not. 00:30:44.951 --> 00:30:47.196 That's Also Yeah. 00:30:47.496 --> 00:30:47.896 Yeah. 00:30:47.896 --> 00:30:52.056 And so when people say, oh, you know, the the horse thinks you're a predator 00:30:52.056 --> 00:30:53.671 when you get on his back To ride. 00:30:53.671 --> 00:30:53.911 No. 00:30:53.911 --> 00:30:57.751 He doesn't because he can tell that you're not acting like a predator at that moment. 00:30:57.751 --> 00:30:58.071 Mhmm. 00:30:58.071 --> 00:31:03.006 And if you are acting in a hyperdominant predatory manner, That horse is less 00:31:03.006 --> 00:31:05.106 likely to let you on their back. 00:31:05.166 --> 00:31:07.906 So that's one aspect of it. 00:31:08.286 --> 00:31:15.051 The other thing I think is that, They called us out, you know, that that there 00:31:15.051 --> 00:31:21.276 is a horse consciousness that reached out to us Just like those jackals reached 00:31:21.276 --> 00:31:27.056 out to you or those they sensing also because we're we're planting grain 00:31:27.561 --> 00:31:29.501 That's that's getting better and better. 00:31:29.911 --> 00:31:32.311 We're taking them to pastures and we're guarding them. 00:31:32.311 --> 00:31:35.946 We're acting as guardians of them From other predators. 00:31:36.326 --> 00:31:42.921 And so there's this way in which you you create this mutual support System with 00:31:42.921 --> 00:31:44.921 another species that appreciates that. 00:31:44.921 --> 00:31:50.136 I mean, there's the horse has now proliferated around the world because 00:31:50.776 --> 00:31:52.636 Their association with humans. 00:31:53.576 --> 00:31:53.816 Mhmm. 00:31:53.816 --> 00:31:54.456 They you know? 00:31:54.456 --> 00:31:57.836 So there were there were advantages to the relationship from the beginning. 00:31:58.456 --> 00:31:58.856 And 00:31:59.901 --> 00:32:00.401 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:32:00.621 --> 00:32:02.621 These are these are these are valid points. 00:32:02.621 --> 00:32:02.861 Yeah. 00:32:02.861 --> 00:32:07.261 I was I'm just minded, I was in Namibia earlier this year, and you're dead right. 00:32:07.261 --> 00:32:12.496 We were watching a Pride of lion, who were deciding whether or not 00:32:12.496 --> 00:32:17.777 to engage with a very large herd of zebra, who were deciding whether or 00:32:17.777 --> 00:32:19.571 not They should be worried about this. 00:32:19.571 --> 00:32:23.762 And what was interesting was it was the the pride was actually three grown 00:32:23.762 --> 00:32:30.146 lionesses who were the hunters and Some half grown cubs who obviously 00:32:30.146 --> 00:32:32.486 needed, you know, to learn the trade. 00:32:32.946 --> 00:32:37.301 And so they would stalk a bit And try a little rush here and there. 00:32:37.301 --> 00:32:42.201 And you could see that the the you could see the zebra sort of looking and go, meh. 00:32:42.261 --> 00:32:42.696 Yep. 00:32:42.856 --> 00:32:43.356 Yep. 00:32:43.816 --> 00:32:43.976 Nah. 00:32:43.976 --> 00:32:46.796 We'll move off a little bit, but we can tell you're not really a threat. 00:32:46.936 --> 00:32:51.736 And but they were keeping an eye on where the three lionesses were. 00:32:51.736 --> 00:32:57.101 And When they moved, the herd would shift accordingly. 00:32:57.641 --> 00:33:06.096 But for sure, no rush was made in the In the time that we were watching them. 00:33:07.146 --> 00:33:12.191 aNd if that is most of the time, I guess, if you're a human predator or Or a or 00:33:12.191 --> 00:33:14.691 a feline predator or a canine predator. 00:33:15.071 --> 00:33:18.612 Every time you try to make a kill, you're expending energy. 00:33:19.071 --> 00:33:21.676 Most Hunts will not be successful. 00:33:22.056 --> 00:33:27.126 How many times do you want to expend that energy before you run out of energy? 00:33:27.126 --> 00:33:28.201 The Animal. 00:33:28.201 --> 00:33:31.731 Your hunting is always faster than you wildier than you. 00:33:31.951 --> 00:33:37.287 So I can see, yes, from what you say that Why would they engage with 00:33:37.287 --> 00:33:38.726 us when we're tricky predators? 00:33:38.726 --> 00:33:40.966 Because, well, we don't always behave that way. 00:33:40.966 --> 00:33:41.466 Absolutely. 00:33:41.926 --> 00:33:49.871 And do you but do you feel because a lot of people would contend that horses 00:33:49.931 --> 00:33:53.727 do not really think rationally, that they represent the more Irrational, 00:33:54.107 --> 00:33:59.807 emotionally based intelligence that they're not the strategic communicators 00:34:00.187 --> 00:34:06.402 that Perhaps we or wolves or hyenas or other pack based predatory things are. 00:34:06.402 --> 00:34:07.522 You know, we have language. 00:34:07.522 --> 00:34:09.726 We use that To to strategize. 00:34:11.147 --> 00:34:20.351 Do you feel that consciously Horses in this early phase of contact with humans 00:34:22.252 --> 00:34:27.627 were Able to take it beyond the okay. 00:34:27.627 --> 00:34:31.552 They're not behaving too aggressively, and they've got some grass that we like. 00:34:31.792 --> 00:34:33.792 Do you think that there was something else going on? 00:34:33.792 --> 00:34:34.452 A curiosity? 00:34:36.832 --> 00:34:37.312 Linda Kohanov: Absolutely. 00:34:37.312 --> 00:34:41.252 Horses are incredibly curious, and they're very powerful and fast. 00:34:41.867 --> 00:34:46.267 And so they can afford to entertain curiosity in a different way 00:34:46.267 --> 00:34:48.907 than you might see a rabbit be curious about something. 00:34:48.907 --> 00:34:54.392 Because, You know, the rabbit's not powerful and capable of, you know, 00:34:54.392 --> 00:34:57.752 really I mean, you see, rabbits are constantly looking around. 00:34:57.752 --> 00:35:00.176 It's like, is it safe to be out here in the open? 00:35:00.636 --> 00:35:03.277 Because they and they have to run off immediately, whereas a 00:35:03.277 --> 00:35:04.797 horse has more of a presence. 00:35:04.797 --> 00:35:09.252 And if they're in a group of empowered horses together, They know they 00:35:09.252 --> 00:35:13.752 can run off a lot of predators, especially the less experienced ones 00:35:13.811 --> 00:35:18.187 and especially when they Draw on that power of a fully empowered herd. 00:35:18.807 --> 00:35:25.582 So their curiosity is something that was Captured in those early cave paintings. 00:35:25.962 --> 00:35:29.742 When you see the horse coming out of the alcove looking very curiously 00:35:31.376 --> 00:35:34.517 And, invitingly the painter, the way he's portraying that. 00:35:35.057 --> 00:35:38.676 So, yeah, because they're powerful and fast, they can afford to be curious. 00:35:39.302 --> 00:35:40.442 And they are. 00:35:41.542 --> 00:35:46.742 They we don't know how their consciousness works exactly, but we see 00:35:46.742 --> 00:35:49.767 through their behavior how they are. 00:35:49.767 --> 00:35:55.847 And how easily they will override their basic survival instincts when they are 00:35:56.007 --> 00:35:59.452 when they feel connected To others. 00:36:00.312 --> 00:36:05.032 And so, I mean, if if a horse was purely an instinctual animal, 00:36:05.032 --> 00:36:09.897 there's no way You would get such an animal to go onto a trailer. 00:36:10.117 --> 00:36:10.437 Mhmm. 00:36:10.437 --> 00:36:12.857 They don't go into small enclosed spaces. 00:36:13.637 --> 00:36:19.662 If If a horse were a purely instinctual animal, there's no way they would ride 00:36:19.662 --> 00:36:25.087 into war, into the smell of blood, Into the screams of horses and humans. 00:36:25.467 --> 00:36:25.787 You know? 00:36:25.787 --> 00:36:32.252 So they when they have a connection to Certain humans, they will go into war. 00:36:32.252 --> 00:36:37.212 And one of the things that I also illustrated in the power of the herd, for 00:36:37.212 --> 00:36:42.737 instance, is that George Washington Had this ability to pick exceptional horses 00:36:42.797 --> 00:36:47.377 who were exceptionally brave, so he didn't see them as bundles of instincts. 00:36:47.702 --> 00:36:51.702 He saw them as individuals, and he would choose horses to go into war who 00:36:51.702 --> 00:36:53.802 had a natural presence and bravery. 00:36:54.422 --> 00:37:02.517 And there's one description of A bunch of soldiers stuck on a bridge with 00:37:02.517 --> 00:37:04.697 the with the enemy coming toward them. 00:37:05.202 --> 00:37:08.742 And one of the guys describe who was one of the soldiers describes 00:37:09.442 --> 00:37:16.157 how they were, like, Really, really scared at that moment as you would be. 00:37:16.617 --> 00:37:20.217 And he actually looked up and saw that George Washington and his horse were 00:37:20.217 --> 00:37:25.752 right next to him And that the horse was just had this presence of being really 00:37:26.372 --> 00:37:31.037 centered in the midst of this threat, And that he actually leaned against the 00:37:31.037 --> 00:37:33.537 horse and borrowed the horse's courage. 00:37:34.477 --> 00:37:39.032 So We have to stop thinking of horses as bundles of instincts and 00:37:39.032 --> 00:37:42.887 realize there are individuals, yes, who are going to be shy and run off. 00:37:42.967 --> 00:37:45.286 There are individuals who don't want to accept a rider. 00:37:45.286 --> 00:37:46.266 We know that. 00:37:46.407 --> 00:37:48.727 There are individuals who love to be ridden. 00:37:48.727 --> 00:37:53.182 There are individuals who love to go out on trail rides. 00:37:53.242 --> 00:37:53.722 You know? 00:37:53.722 --> 00:37:59.616 There are there are individuals who will reach out to children Who were 00:37:59.616 --> 00:38:04.096 in states of distress that normally would cause a horse's nervous system 00:38:04.096 --> 00:38:05.616 to go into a flight or fight mode. 00:38:05.616 --> 00:38:11.592 That was so clear with Rowan and Betsy, The horse that reached out to him when 00:38:11.592 --> 00:38:14.491 he was in a state of real turmoil. 00:38:15.191 --> 00:38:17.211 With horses, they're they're highly empathic. 00:38:17.352 --> 00:38:21.757 So if if Somebody's in a state of turmoil at that level. 00:38:22.217 --> 00:38:25.817 A lot of horses would simply spook and run off, but some horses 00:38:25.817 --> 00:38:29.951 have the capacity to step in and help to coregulate that person. 00:38:30.572 --> 00:38:32.592 So these are natural healing horses. 00:38:33.132 --> 00:38:35.057 Not all horses are gonna be that way. 00:38:35.297 --> 00:38:38.417 So I think when we look at them as individuals, we get to see certain 00:38:38.417 --> 00:38:42.497 talents and orientations, and we don't know how conscious they are of this. 00:38:42.497 --> 00:38:46.422 But a lot I A lot of people act in different kinds of ways, brave or 00:38:46.422 --> 00:38:49.782 caring, who are not conscious of what they're doing at that moment. 00:38:49.782 --> 00:38:54.607 There's a kind of stream of Of an orientation or a talent that lures 00:38:54.607 --> 00:38:58.446 you into places where you gain more and more confidence, and you're not 00:38:58.446 --> 00:39:00.387 even conscious of how you got there. 00:39:01.632 --> 00:39:02.032 Yes. 00:39:02.032 --> 00:39:02.352 No. 00:39:02.352 --> 00:39:03.152 Rupert Isaacson: I I I I would agree. 00:39:03.152 --> 00:39:06.747 I think that, you know, there's this there's this cliche, Then 00:39:06.747 --> 00:39:09.387 like all cliches, of course, it's based in a truth, which is that, 00:39:09.387 --> 00:39:11.247 you know, the horse is your mirror. 00:39:11.547 --> 00:39:13.682 If you go Grumpy to the horse. 00:39:13.682 --> 00:39:15.202 You might get a bit of a grumpy response. 00:39:15.202 --> 00:39:18.162 If you're afraid, he might be afraid, and so on. 00:39:18.162 --> 00:39:23.647 But but, of course, I feel it goes beyond that. 00:39:23.647 --> 00:39:30.522 I and and this idea with the higher self and curiosity, I think What one 00:39:30.522 --> 00:39:35.322 sees often with horses is is that really defines this their species as 00:39:35.322 --> 00:39:39.547 herbivores, maybe even more than others when you observe them together It's 00:39:39.547 --> 00:39:44.677 it's it's playfulness this this seeking out of of play and entertainment. 00:39:45.377 --> 00:39:49.922 And when I'm Got my horse trainer hat on. 00:39:50.622 --> 00:39:53.282 What I'm often saying to people is don't be a horse trainer. 00:39:53.822 --> 00:39:54.962 Be a horse entertainer. 00:39:56.097 --> 00:39:57.537 Be interesting to the horse. 00:39:57.537 --> 00:40:02.257 Be be worth interacting with, you know, so that when the horse sees you 00:40:02.257 --> 00:40:05.972 coming, they think, oh, you know, This might be good crack, you know, today. 00:40:05.972 --> 00:40:07.592 What's he got you know, what's shaking? 00:40:07.732 --> 00:40:08.612 Rather than, oh, shit. 00:40:08.612 --> 00:40:11.657 Here comes that, you know, person that makes me Just endlessly do the 00:40:11.657 --> 00:40:17.177 same thing and is always a bit, you know, frustrated with me for not quite 00:40:17.177 --> 00:40:18.717 understanding what's in their brain. 00:40:20.592 --> 00:40:28.087 I wonder if it's this aspect, this playful aspect of the horse that has 00:40:28.087 --> 00:40:32.327 the potential to bring out, if you like, this higher self because in us. 00:40:32.327 --> 00:40:35.287 Because when horses are playful together, as we know, they're quite 00:40:35.287 --> 00:40:38.342 rough, and they're you know, When horses are really playing together, 00:40:38.562 --> 00:40:42.482 a weak little monkey like us is it's not great to be in the way of that. 00:40:42.482 --> 00:40:45.207 There's a reason why we call Rough play horseplay. 00:40:46.817 --> 00:40:48.737 Yet you can engage with them. 00:40:48.737 --> 00:40:53.312 And as you say, that that they will modify their behavior Like Betsy did 00:40:53.312 --> 00:40:57.122 with my son, for example you know, in in a way which I thought I knew horses 00:40:57.982 --> 00:40:59.662 quite well until I observed that. 00:40:59.662 --> 00:41:00.862 And then I realized, oh gosh. 00:41:00.862 --> 00:41:03.507 I Really don't know horses as well as I thought I did. 00:41:03.647 --> 00:41:07.167 In fact, I need to revise everything I know. 00:41:07.167 --> 00:41:08.307 This is really interesting. 00:41:08.767 --> 00:41:12.832 This is a good thing, Which brings me to my next question. 00:41:12.832 --> 00:41:13.392 And I think 00:41:13.392 --> 00:41:16.752 Linda Kohanov: also I mean, I just one little point here Yeah. 00:41:16.832 --> 00:41:20.267 Is that, you know, when they when They'll say they're not conscious 00:41:20.267 --> 00:41:23.967 or they don't have logical capacity or strategic thinking or whatever. 00:41:24.587 --> 00:41:28.287 I mean, I have several horses that know how to open gates. 00:41:28.462 --> 00:41:28.862 Yeah. 00:41:28.862 --> 00:41:30.782 So, I mean, I have to put one out there. 00:41:30.782 --> 00:41:33.102 They'll get out, and they'll let everybody else loose. 00:41:33.102 --> 00:41:35.842 And I never taught them how to open these gates. 00:41:36.187 --> 00:41:37.967 And I even have a horse that, 00:41:38.077 --> 00:41:40.957 Rupert Isaacson: You just provided them with rather rather interesting 00:41:40.957 --> 00:41:42.557 puzzles for them, which is very nice of 00:41:42.557 --> 00:41:43.057 Linda Kohanov: you. 00:41:43.437 --> 00:41:43.757 Right. 00:41:43.757 --> 00:41:44.257 Right. 00:41:44.462 --> 00:41:51.022 Well, I mean, I I I have some temporary corral panels that I set up, and I've, you 00:41:51.022 --> 00:41:53.842 know, sort of put a chain around the gate. 00:41:54.087 --> 00:41:57.847 And then I've had horses figure out how to loosen the pins, pull up 00:41:57.847 --> 00:41:59.787 and loosen the pins, and get out. 00:42:00.007 --> 00:42:00.407 You know? 00:42:00.407 --> 00:42:04.572 So You have to just you have to realize they're strategizing. 00:42:04.872 --> 00:42:10.072 They can totally run mazes on my property because I have all kinds of 00:42:10.072 --> 00:42:14.717 different sections of corrals that are if I open them up, they know 00:42:14.717 --> 00:42:16.077 how to get from one to the other. 00:42:16.077 --> 00:42:17.777 They know exactly what to do. 00:42:18.302 --> 00:42:20.142 So these are things they learned on their own. 00:42:20.142 --> 00:42:21.522 They figured it out for themselves. 00:42:21.662 --> 00:42:25.342 So there is logical strategic thinking in horses. 00:42:25.342 --> 00:42:30.217 We're It's just that when they're out in the, you know, like, zebras 00:42:30.997 --> 00:42:36.002 in the Kalahari or something like that, They they don't have a need for 00:42:36.002 --> 00:42:37.762 that kind of strategic intelligence. 00:42:37.762 --> 00:42:39.462 They're paying attention to other things. 00:42:41.762 --> 00:42:42.002 Is 00:42:42.002 --> 00:42:46.687 Rupert Isaacson: it this This is the question I'm I'm is it this playfulness 00:42:46.687 --> 00:42:52.367 and this curiosity bring that we something in us responds to that. 00:42:52.367 --> 00:42:52.867 Right? 00:42:53.152 --> 00:42:59.092 The what to us is play and curiosity, if not joy? 00:42:59.152 --> 00:42:59.652 Right? 00:43:00.112 --> 00:43:06.477 And so It seems to me is is it do you think that that's perhaps the difference 00:43:06.537 --> 00:43:15.852 between Symbolic relationship with horses and the other animals which we 00:43:15.852 --> 00:43:22.097 ride, like Reyders, donkeys, camels, elephants, water buffalo, and others. 00:43:22.877 --> 00:43:28.042 Do you think it's this aspect of playfulness And inquisitive curiosity. 00:43:29.382 --> 00:43:39.297 That brings up this Special sort of meta love that we seem to have 00:43:39.297 --> 00:43:40.947 for this animal across cultures. 00:43:41.007 --> 00:43:45.187 You know, one finds horse cultures in every continent except Antarctica. 00:43:47.992 --> 00:43:49.772 Is is that what it is? 00:43:49.912 --> 00:43:55.832 And is that why horses have this ability to sort of heal the human heart? 00:43:55.832 --> 00:43:57.887 What what what To bring us back to joy. 00:43:57.887 --> 00:43:59.667 What what what are your thoughts about that? 00:44:02.367 --> 00:44:05.632 Linda Kohanov: Horses experience a full range of emotions, And they 00:44:05.632 --> 00:44:06.752 move through them very quickly. 00:44:06.752 --> 00:44:08.932 They're very emotionally agile animals. 00:44:08.992 --> 00:44:14.377 So if they're angry at a stallion that's Coming in too close, you know, 00:44:14.377 --> 00:44:18.697 the mayor will sort of, you know, pin her ears and then crescendo if 00:44:18.697 --> 00:44:20.377 the stallion isn't paying attention. 00:44:20.377 --> 00:44:23.232 She'll then, You know, squeal and turn around and bite. 00:44:23.232 --> 00:44:26.772 And then if he doesn't back off, then she'll turn around and mule kick the guy. 00:44:26.992 --> 00:44:29.952 And then, you know, maybe ten minutes later, you see them hanging out 00:44:29.952 --> 00:44:31.537 together under their favorite Free. 00:44:31.537 --> 00:44:36.017 So that's emotional agility to move from anger, which is about setting 00:44:36.017 --> 00:44:40.117 boundaries, and then move to a sense of peacefulness and connection. 00:44:40.952 --> 00:44:45.032 And they experience they definitely experience sadness and grief. 00:44:45.032 --> 00:44:46.332 I've seen it a lot. 00:44:46.392 --> 00:44:49.112 A lot of people don't realize that, but I I have talked about 00:44:49.112 --> 00:44:50.537 it quite a bit in my books. 00:44:51.177 --> 00:44:56.537 They experience incredible joy and peacefulness and contentment, and 00:44:56.537 --> 00:45:00.263 yet they move through all of those emotions very efficiently and go 00:45:00.263 --> 00:45:02.685 back to grazing as I like to say. 00:45:02.685 --> 00:45:06.015 Whereas humans hang on to certain emotional states and retell the 00:45:06.015 --> 00:45:08.134 story over and over and over again. 00:45:08.694 --> 00:45:12.214 So this is one of the things that we learn from horses when we begin to 00:45:12.214 --> 00:45:16.889 see them as teachers is how to be more emotionally agile and how to Feel an 00:45:16.889 --> 00:45:21.609 emotion in its purest form and get the message behind it, change something 00:45:21.609 --> 00:45:24.829 in response to that message, and then let it go and go back to grazing. 00:45:25.824 --> 00:45:30.304 So there's an emotional intelligence in horses that we can learn from 00:45:30.304 --> 00:45:33.829 that we've lost sight of in our city based cultures, in our Focus 00:45:33.829 --> 00:45:37.589 on language and telling stories over and over and over again rather than 00:45:37.589 --> 00:45:39.509 being in the present in the present. 00:45:39.509 --> 00:45:42.734 It's not that we don't Want to tell stories or shouldn't 00:45:42.734 --> 00:45:44.034 tell stories, we should. 00:45:44.414 --> 00:45:50.679 But to fixate on them at the expense of being present in life is part of our Sort 00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:56.299 of human psychology that's gotten out of control over time with our focus on words. 00:45:56.759 --> 00:46:03.814 But Horses engage in incredible moments of joy and contentment and peacefulness. 00:46:04.514 --> 00:46:09.919 I talk about Standing among a group of horses huddled together 00:46:09.919 --> 00:46:15.564 on pasture about how I'm often privy to a secret bliss, Really? 00:46:16.024 --> 00:46:17.064 Rupert Isaacson: Privy to a secret place. 00:46:17.224 --> 00:46:17.624 They're dosing. 00:46:17.864 --> 00:46:18.764 Write that down. 00:46:19.544 --> 00:46:20.524 Please go ahead. 00:46:20.744 --> 00:46:22.184 Privy to a secret place. 00:46:22.184 --> 00:46:22.504 I love 00:46:22.504 --> 00:46:23.004 Linda Kohanov: that. 00:46:24.069 --> 00:46:27.689 I mean, sometimes they are dozing, but sometimes they're not. 00:46:27.829 --> 00:46:28.069 Yeah. 00:46:28.069 --> 00:46:29.509 They only seem to be dozing. 00:46:29.509 --> 00:46:34.644 They're actually engaged in this Collective, subsonic reverie so deep 00:46:35.184 --> 00:46:40.439 that I feel like it vibrates through the bones and And expands the heart, 00:46:40.439 --> 00:46:44.919 leaving the ears untouched so that you're you're when you're with horses 00:46:44.919 --> 00:46:51.294 and you really Slow down and stop being so fixated on your human agenda 00:46:51.294 --> 00:46:53.454 and just enter into their world. 00:46:53.454 --> 00:46:58.909 You begin to Expand into areas of peace and joy and connection that 00:46:58.969 --> 00:47:02.829 sometimes people have never experienced with a member of their own species. 00:47:03.494 --> 00:47:06.934 So it's it's very profound, and I think this is part of the reason why 00:47:06.934 --> 00:47:09.194 horses being with horses is so healing. 00:47:10.454 --> 00:47:10.854 Well 00:47:10.854 --> 00:47:11.354 Rupert Isaacson: put. 00:47:12.549 --> 00:47:17.849 It's interesting that almost all of the metaphors that we use around horses are 00:47:17.849 --> 00:47:20.294 always Superlatives or positive things. 00:47:20.294 --> 00:47:25.274 If you compare a situation or somebody or something to something equine, 00:47:25.729 --> 00:47:27.109 That person's a real stallion. 00:47:27.169 --> 00:47:28.469 That person's a real stud. 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:33.884 That you know, that person has got a, you know, I suppose suppose you say kick like 00:47:33.884 --> 00:47:35.824 a mule, but it's really a type of horse. 00:47:35.884 --> 00:47:37.124 That person gosh. 00:47:38.279 --> 00:47:44.439 There are so many, I think, equine references in our culture. 00:47:44.439 --> 00:47:48.184 We know that Shakespeare was a great horseman and Falconer. 00:47:48.184 --> 00:47:51.704 And he he's peppered his plays with it all the, you know, 00:47:51.704 --> 00:47:53.064 hold your horses, hold hard. 00:47:53.064 --> 00:47:53.704 You know? 00:47:53.704 --> 00:47:59.119 But that, generally, You don't use a metaphor of a horse 00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:00.819 to say someone is rubbish. 00:48:01.439 --> 00:48:06.364 You you usually use a metaphor of a horse As a as a as an emotional 00:48:06.364 --> 00:48:07.644 strengthener that's positive. 00:48:07.644 --> 00:48:08.144 Right? 00:48:08.524 --> 00:48:13.279 One of the things which you pointed out about this emotional agility. 00:48:13.279 --> 00:48:14.239 I wrote that down too. 00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:15.059 I like that. 00:48:15.279 --> 00:48:19.379 Are you familiar with Gulliver's Travels, you know, the the the eighteenth century 00:48:19.844 --> 00:48:24.554 English novel that was made into a Disney made a famous film about you know, you've 00:48:24.554 --> 00:48:28.409 got Gulliver who's The Lilliputians, the little people, they tie him down. 00:48:28.409 --> 00:48:31.449 So that's that's one of the he goes to the island of Lilliput. 00:48:31.449 --> 00:48:34.169 He goes to the island of Brobdiagnag where he encounters giants. 00:48:34.169 --> 00:48:36.754 But he also goes This was not in the film. 00:48:36.754 --> 00:48:39.094 He goes to the island of the Hui Hinnoms. 00:48:39.314 --> 00:48:44.114 And the Hui Hinnoms are horses, but they're horses that speak English and 00:48:44.114 --> 00:48:49.829 live And a sort of a a a a a life that reflects eighteenth century England. 00:48:50.129 --> 00:48:55.424 And there's this he has Great admiration for them because they seem to have 00:48:55.424 --> 00:48:59.924 exactly, as you just pointed out, a sort of emotional agility and perspective 00:49:00.784 --> 00:49:05.819 where He's taking tea with a very elegant mare, a very elegant sorrel 00:49:05.819 --> 00:49:08.079 mare who's serving him tea in her house. 00:49:08.654 --> 00:49:11.784 And it comes up in the course of the conversation that her 00:49:11.784 --> 00:49:13.404 husband has recently died. 00:49:13.704 --> 00:49:17.279 And Gulliver's, oh, I'm terribly sorry to hear that, my lady, 00:49:17.279 --> 00:49:18.899 and, you know, my condolences. 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:20.879 And and she says, oh, no. 00:49:20.879 --> 00:49:21.999 Why why would you say that? 00:49:21.999 --> 00:49:23.519 He he led a very, very good life. 00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:25.744 We had a An absolutely lovely time together. 00:49:25.744 --> 00:49:28.864 He's been dead about a day and a half, and I remember him 00:49:28.864 --> 00:49:30.644 well, and my present is good. 00:49:31.789 --> 00:49:33.969 Do horses bring us into the present moment? 00:49:36.429 --> 00:49:37.169 Linda Kohanov: They do. 00:49:37.309 --> 00:49:37.809 Absolutely. 00:49:38.589 --> 00:49:46.034 But I've also seen horses Engage in extensive grief so that I mean, we 00:49:46.034 --> 00:49:49.779 we would say that that's incredibly emotionally agile of this, You 00:49:49.779 --> 00:49:51.459 know, Lady Mare in that book. 00:49:51.459 --> 00:49:54.819 I need to go and read that because I've never I never knew that part of the book. 00:49:54.819 --> 00:49:55.959 I need to find that. 00:49:56.259 --> 00:49:58.679 So she's showing extreme emotional agility. 00:49:58.739 --> 00:49:59.059 Yes. 00:49:59.059 --> 00:50:01.379 He lived a good life, you know, all of that. 00:50:01.379 --> 00:50:03.459 And and it doesn't seem like she's grieving. 00:50:03.459 --> 00:50:08.974 But in reality, horses do grieve Because part of it is because our 00:50:08.974 --> 00:50:14.674 nervous systems sync up, and we know that from the polyvagal theory, 00:50:14.839 --> 00:50:17.099 For instance, of Steven Porges. 00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:22.439 We know that we are, as mammals, and that includes sources, designed to connect 00:50:22.439 --> 00:50:27.774 with each other, To experience safety through connection and that that it's 00:50:27.774 --> 00:50:36.189 really impossible or difficult for us to heal or, Even evolve as a lone wolf. 00:50:36.189 --> 00:50:40.129 I mean, even wolves don't really engage in lone wolf behavior. 00:50:40.424 --> 00:50:45.384 So mammals are are designed to socially engage and to use their nervous systems 00:50:45.384 --> 00:50:49.539 to coregulate each other so that one one is distressed, Others will reach 00:50:49.539 --> 00:50:51.799 out and calm that horse and vice versa. 00:50:52.499 --> 00:50:58.324 And a lot of people didn't understand that this is actually a Feature of 00:50:58.324 --> 00:51:02.404 the nervous system of mammals until recently when doctor Porges came out 00:51:02.404 --> 00:51:04.824 with his theory, and it explains a lot. 00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:09.839 So one of the things that happens with horses when they are allowed to form close 00:51:09.839 --> 00:51:15.059 lifelong partnerships is their nervous systems sync up and affect each other. 00:51:15.414 --> 00:51:18.934 And so when one of these horses dies, the other horse really 00:51:18.934 --> 00:51:22.054 feels like their nervous system is missing something huge if you just 00:51:22.054 --> 00:51:23.914 wanna put it in scientific terms. 00:51:24.659 --> 00:51:29.619 So I've had horses, and I don't I have several horses who I've raised. 00:51:29.619 --> 00:51:35.763 I've had multiple generations of a certain Herd of horses that they were 00:51:35.763 --> 00:51:37.364 never separated from their parents. 00:51:37.364 --> 00:51:40.324 They were weaned, and then they were put back in with their parents and brothers 00:51:40.324 --> 00:51:42.878 and sisters and cousins And uncles. 00:51:43.658 --> 00:51:49.339 And when one of those parents dies, the horse that's closest to that parent 00:51:49.339 --> 00:51:54.694 will actually Shut down and become incredibly depressed because there was I 00:51:54.694 --> 00:51:59.509 can see in certain instances where they were in such See, co regulating each 00:51:59.509 --> 00:52:01.449 other for years and years and years. 00:52:01.669 --> 00:52:04.229 But then when that physical presence is no longer there, 00:52:04.229 --> 00:52:05.814 there's something huge missing. 00:52:05.894 --> 00:52:09.013 There's like a part of them dies with the other being that dies. 00:52:09.013 --> 00:52:13.033 And that's the same for spouses or parents and human children. 00:52:13.174 --> 00:52:13.414 So 00:52:15.399 --> 00:52:18.439 Rupert Isaacson: Why is it though that why is it that horses bring 00:52:18.439 --> 00:52:19.399 us into the present moment? 00:52:19.399 --> 00:52:22.519 There's a really good quote from the Tower of Equus where you you talk about 00:52:22.529 --> 00:52:27.494 when you're when you mount a horse, you must Put the past where it belongs. 00:52:27.713 --> 00:52:31.314 You must be in the present, and you must have your mind on the 00:52:31.314 --> 00:52:33.254 immediate sort of optimistic future. 00:52:35.449 --> 00:52:38.169 Why is it that horses put us into the pre why do we need to be in 00:52:38.169 --> 00:52:39.368 the present moment with horses? 00:52:39.368 --> 00:52:45.904 And why is it that we do seem to go into that State of unawareness of 00:52:45.904 --> 00:52:47.503 anything else when we're with a horse. 00:52:47.503 --> 00:52:49.844 What what what what what's doing that in us? 00:52:53.849 --> 00:52:57.049 Linda Kohanov: Part of it is because they're so big. 00:52:57.049 --> 00:52:58.169 You have to pay attention. 00:52:58.169 --> 00:53:00.329 You have to be present if you're gonna be around them or you're 00:53:00.329 --> 00:53:02.009 getting knocked around and stepped on. 00:53:02.009 --> 00:53:06.284 And If if you're really present, and I know you know this, Rupert, because 00:53:06.284 --> 00:53:13.609 you are a fine rider, you can feel a worse I don't I don't know whether I 00:53:13.609 --> 00:53:17.769 should say thinking of spooking, or you can feel a horse's intention to 00:53:17.769 --> 00:53:21.629 spook in your body before they can get their thousand pound body to do that. 00:53:21.804 --> 00:53:26.304 And if so if you're really present, you can move with a sudden sideways 00:53:26.364 --> 00:53:29.564 leap because you're you're there's a part of you that's already sensed 00:53:29.564 --> 00:53:33.799 it's about to happen, And you can't do that if you're not fully present. 00:53:34.099 --> 00:53:34.579 You know? 00:53:34.579 --> 00:53:38.119 That's how you topple off and and get dragged or left in the dust. 00:53:38.659 --> 00:53:43.144 So I think When you're with horses and you're really doing serious things 00:53:43.144 --> 00:53:48.263 with them, like riding or training young horses or rehabilitating abused 00:53:48.263 --> 00:53:53.759 horses, The more present you are, the more you can actually feel what's 00:53:53.759 --> 00:53:58.339 about to happen and do something to shift it before it gets out of control. 00:53:59.924 --> 00:54:00.244 Yeah. 00:54:00.244 --> 00:54:01.944 That's the advantage of being present. 00:54:02.324 --> 00:54:02.564 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:54:02.564 --> 00:54:03.444 I could see yeah. 00:54:03.444 --> 00:54:08.439 I I I think that the presence of imminent danger It's exactly as 00:54:08.439 --> 00:54:12.459 you describe, which one is whether one's next to or on top of a horse. 00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:13.959 It's just there. 00:54:13.959 --> 00:54:16.939 As you said, it's a thousand pound animal that can respond 00:54:17.523 --> 00:54:19.463 Violently to small things. 00:54:20.594 --> 00:54:24.674 And when one's on it you know, one of the things I often think is so interesting 00:54:24.674 --> 00:54:28.239 about riding is How one has to go completely against nature and intuition. 00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:28.559 You know? 00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:32.399 The the horse was not designed really to carry monkeys yet. 00:54:32.399 --> 00:54:33.714 There we are sitting on one. 00:54:33.954 --> 00:54:38.294 And with our top heavy you know, heavy head and shoulders, we're not really 00:54:38.294 --> 00:54:40.374 designed to sit on a moving barrel yet. 00:54:40.374 --> 00:54:44.619 We sort of Evolved to be able to do that if we put enough work into it. 00:54:44.619 --> 00:54:49.504 And then we want to, as, you know, sight apes, Solve our problems 00:54:49.504 --> 00:54:53.904 with our eyes and our hands, which, of course, might work against us 00:54:53.904 --> 00:54:55.924 with horses if we grab on tight. 00:54:56.289 --> 00:55:00.529 And then, of course, we we want to go into a bit of a of a crouch if we 00:55:00.529 --> 00:55:03.829 feel afraid, which naturally we're going to on the back of a horse. 00:55:05.254 --> 00:55:07.494 But because if we do that, we're gonna tilt forward and go out 00:55:07.494 --> 00:55:11.864 the front door let alone transmit our fear to to the to the animal. 00:55:12.244 --> 00:55:15.139 Yet and and, of course, it doesn't really make an awful lot of sense 00:55:15.139 --> 00:55:16.499 for a horse to let us come near. 00:55:16.499 --> 00:55:17.059 You know? 00:55:17.059 --> 00:55:21.829 Every herb of all has to be, if you like, trained from the wild as a baby 00:55:22.304 --> 00:55:24.164 To accept the presence of humans. 00:55:24.624 --> 00:55:30.644 And yet, miraculously, if we put enough work into it together, it seems to happen. 00:55:33.089 --> 00:55:36.049 What I'm wondering is is thing. 00:55:36.049 --> 00:55:37.169 Go you go go ahead with this. 00:55:37.169 --> 00:55:37.409 Yeah. 00:55:37.409 --> 00:55:38.849 What what what do you think about 00:55:38.849 --> 00:55:39.589 Linda Kohanov: about that? 00:55:42.784 --> 00:55:43.904 Well, here's the thing. 00:55:43.904 --> 00:55:48.224 We have to stop thinking of ourselves as apes that just showed up out 00:55:48.224 --> 00:55:50.289 of the blue among herds of horses. 00:55:50.369 --> 00:55:51.429 This is not true. 00:55:51.569 --> 00:55:56.049 We're talking about at least I I think it's about six thousand years of evidence 00:55:56.049 --> 00:56:00.594 of actually riding horses, But longer evidence, as I say, with the cave 00:56:00.594 --> 00:56:03.974 paintings of people being inspired by them and intrigued by them and engaged. 00:56:04.434 --> 00:56:07.254 And through those interactions, we have evolved. 00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:10.999 So we're not purely Oh, I would agree with 00:56:10.999 --> 00:56:11.579 Rupert Isaacson: you there. 00:56:11.879 --> 00:56:15.659 But but nonetheless, one has the the horse, when it's a very young horse 00:56:15.659 --> 00:56:19.179 even ones that one has bred oneself, their first reaction to a human 00:56:19.179 --> 00:56:26.104 is, you know, and they might come across for a bit of a sniff, But they 00:56:26.104 --> 00:56:27.544 kinda wanna get behind their mom. 00:56:27.544 --> 00:56:28.024 You know? 00:56:28.024 --> 00:56:32.024 And even the mom who is used to us is like, okay. 00:56:32.024 --> 00:56:33.064 But this is my baby. 00:56:33.064 --> 00:56:33.624 You know? 00:56:33.624 --> 00:56:34.364 Be cool. 00:56:34.659 --> 00:56:38.839 And then, of course, when we climb up on horses, when we're learning to ride, 00:56:39.379 --> 00:56:45.484 we're entering a completely unknown Three-dimensional space where we have to 00:56:45.484 --> 00:56:49.684 basically create a body map with an animal that we may or may not really understand. 00:56:49.684 --> 00:56:53.009 He has to create a body map with And we have to sync our nervous 00:56:53.009 --> 00:56:55.169 systems up, and then we have to learn all this technical stuff. 00:56:55.169 --> 00:56:58.804 And it's jolly difficult, which is why relatively few people do it. 00:56:59.044 --> 00:57:00.244 Otherwise, everyone would be doing it. 00:57:00.244 --> 00:57:00.564 Right? 00:57:00.614 --> 00:57:03.514 But, nonetheless, it happens. 00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:09.299 I always feel that there's some aspect of the miraculous with that. 00:57:09.299 --> 00:57:12.099 I I agree with you that we've had thousands of years of interaction 00:57:12.099 --> 00:57:14.844 with these animals, But it it seems that every single time, 00:57:14.844 --> 00:57:16.044 we're still starting from scratch. 00:57:16.044 --> 00:57:19.484 I mean, every time I start with a new horse that comes to me for 00:57:19.484 --> 00:57:20.899 train, I'm starting from scratch. 00:57:21.139 --> 00:57:23.939 Every time I'm writing a new book, I'm starting from scratch just because 00:57:23.939 --> 00:57:26.199 I wrote a a book, you know, before. 00:57:26.259 --> 00:57:29.379 It doesn't mean that when I sit in front of that blank page I know that one. 00:57:29.379 --> 00:57:30.019 You know that one? 00:57:30.019 --> 00:57:30.179 Yeah. 00:57:30.179 --> 00:57:31.444 You know that And I'm sure a lot of 00:57:31.444 --> 00:57:32.384 Linda Kohanov: people god. 00:57:32.444 --> 00:57:35.884 Every time I think it's gonna be easy and it's absolutely not, it never gets 00:57:35.884 --> 00:57:36.364 Rupert Isaacson: easier. 00:57:36.364 --> 00:57:36.604 No. 00:57:36.604 --> 00:57:36.764 No. 00:57:36.764 --> 00:57:39.164 You you sort of kid yourself it's gonna be so that you begin, 00:57:39.164 --> 00:57:40.124 and then you're like, oh, shit. 00:57:40.124 --> 00:57:42.929 Why did I Why did I let myself in for this again? 00:57:43.789 --> 00:57:44.289 Absolutely. 00:57:45.709 --> 00:57:46.349 Oh, here we go. 00:57:46.349 --> 00:57:47.409 Another five years. 00:57:49.324 --> 00:57:51.804 But the the yeah. 00:57:51.804 --> 00:57:54.524 There's this miraculous thing where you, yeah, you look up and then 00:57:54.524 --> 00:57:55.724 then, boom, there's this book. 00:57:55.724 --> 00:57:59.299 And, Oh, I've just added another one by the in to the cohen 00:57:59.299 --> 00:58:04.334 of, you know, Uh, library. 00:58:04.474 --> 00:58:07.694 And then you have called immediate amnesia because you're beginning the new one. 00:58:09.304 --> 00:58:12.669 Writing Sometimes brings us into the present moment, but I don't think it 00:58:12.669 --> 00:58:17.549 brings you know, one sometimes has to find one's way into the present moment 00:58:17.549 --> 00:58:21.804 with the pursuit of the human arts because it's one is contending with 00:58:21.804 --> 00:58:24.544 one's own nervous system and brain only. 00:58:25.034 --> 00:58:28.939 I think there's this thing, do you not agree of contending I'm finding 00:58:28.939 --> 00:58:33.899 relationship with a whole other nervous system and brain that is not our own. 00:58:33.899 --> 00:58:35.579 It's not a dance partner that's human. 00:58:35.579 --> 00:58:36.859 It's not a lover that's human. 00:58:36.859 --> 00:58:38.824 It's not Someone that we can stop and say, hold on. 00:58:38.824 --> 00:58:39.064 Hold on. 00:58:39.064 --> 00:58:40.024 Can we just rewind there? 00:58:40.024 --> 00:58:40.984 What did you mean by that? 00:58:40.984 --> 00:58:42.504 Or could you touch me differently? 00:58:42.504 --> 00:58:44.924 Or you stepped on my toe or or whatever. 00:58:45.749 --> 00:58:48.009 We have to evolve this other language, don't we? 00:58:48.709 --> 00:58:56.904 Um, uh, what do you feel about the miraculous In the human horse 00:58:56.904 --> 00:59:02.699 relationship, which, for me, is that Immediate boom straight into the present 00:59:02.699 --> 00:59:03.819 moment whether you want to or not. 00:59:03.819 --> 00:59:04.459 You're just there. 00:59:04.459 --> 00:59:05.759 You don't even have to try. 00:59:05.819 --> 00:59:07.039 To me, that is miraculous. 00:59:07.769 --> 00:59:12.074 And it it seems that mythologically, You know, we we're always equate 00:59:12.154 --> 00:59:13.774 equating horses to the miraculous. 00:59:13.794 --> 00:59:18.014 You mentioned Pegasus in the Tao of Equus, you know, very eloquently. 00:59:19.719 --> 00:59:22.199 What is the winged horse if not an expression of miracle? 00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:22.859 You know? 00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:27.419 What is your feeling about the miraculous with horses and humans? 00:59:30.914 --> 00:59:36.679 Linda Kohanov: Horses have a connection with this world here and now where I 00:59:36.679 --> 00:59:40.699 also believe horses have a connection to a much wider view of consciousness, 00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:45.019 whether that's spirit, whether that's god whether it's the great 00:59:45.019 --> 00:59:47.119 mystery, whatever you wanna call it. 00:59:48.059 --> 00:59:55.684 And, you know, a lot of a lot of people Who do trans transpossession, 00:59:56.464 --> 00:59:57.924 let's say, in certain cultures. 00:59:58.384 --> 01:00:01.764 They call themselves horses when they do that. 01:00:02.449 --> 01:00:06.159 And the idea is that the spirit's coming in and actually riding you. 01:00:06.379 --> 01:00:06.699 Mhmm. 01:00:06.699 --> 01:00:10.964 And horses just seem to have a capacity for that with Human 01:00:10.964 --> 01:00:13.064 riders as well as actual spirit. 01:00:13.284 --> 01:00:17.284 So I've seen horses act in ways that are not related to how their 01:00:17.284 --> 01:00:19.029 personality is in normal life. 01:00:19.429 --> 01:00:24.089 And it seems like they're being they're being ridden or possessed for a moment, 01:00:24.089 --> 01:00:29.854 you might say, or opening themselves up to An influence of a larger spiritual nature. 01:00:29.854 --> 01:00:34.894 I've seen them take on the personality traits of people people who have 01:00:34.894 --> 01:00:39.449 passed In the presence of certain people who are grieving, let's say. 01:00:39.449 --> 01:00:41.469 Now that's miraculous for sure. 01:00:42.089 --> 01:00:49.064 And So I think this ability to to be very powerful and present, but also 01:00:49.064 --> 01:00:54.909 being This may be why horses are agreed to be ridden, actually, is that they are 01:00:54.909 --> 01:01:01.234 capable of also expanding Into allowing another form of intelligence to come 01:01:01.234 --> 01:01:03.574 in and actually run things for a while. 01:01:05.309 --> 01:01:09.789 So that by eventually having a human being able to ride, maybe that was 01:01:09.789 --> 01:01:15.304 just a small physical Manifestation in their minds of the idea of being 01:01:15.304 --> 01:01:17.244 ridden by larger spiritual forces. 01:01:18.824 --> 01:01:22.189 There's also a group intelligence with horses that I encountered in 01:01:22.189 --> 01:01:26.209 the Tao of Equis where I talk about accessing the horse ancestors. 01:01:28.459 --> 01:01:34.444 aNd, You know, there's just ways in which they are open to what's happening 01:01:34.444 --> 01:01:39.139 in the moment in this physical world, but they're also equally open, it seems, 01:01:39.139 --> 01:01:41.239 in the moment to spiritual forces. 01:01:41.699 --> 01:01:45.274 And it's hard to be around them For years and years and years 01:01:45.274 --> 01:01:49.594 where you see the miraculous things that they do with people at times. 01:01:49.594 --> 01:01:53.269 It's out of character For the individual horse at the time without 01:01:53.329 --> 01:01:54.849 actually realizing, oh my god. 01:01:54.849 --> 01:01:56.529 There's something else going on here. 01:01:56.529 --> 01:01:58.149 There are other forms of intelligence. 01:01:59.194 --> 01:02:01.834 There are there are things that we can allow in too. 01:02:01.834 --> 01:02:03.994 Because when you're writing a book, you're you're accessing 01:02:03.994 --> 01:02:05.294 another form of intelligence. 01:02:05.914 --> 01:02:10.279 It's it's, In this case, when you're writing, it's a it's it's a slightly 01:02:10.339 --> 01:02:18.404 dissociative Presence because actually, I had a person study this and talk 01:02:18.404 --> 01:02:23.059 about discordant dissociation where it's survival dissociation where you associate 01:02:23.059 --> 01:02:26.359 because you're going into flight or fight mode, and you're trying to just survive. 01:02:27.059 --> 01:02:30.914 Whereas there's also concordant dissociation, which is a form of 01:02:30.914 --> 01:02:36.274 dissociation that artists engage and writers so that you know, how you 01:02:36.354 --> 01:02:40.059 when you get into the State, you lose all contact with what's going on. 01:02:40.059 --> 01:02:44.059 And four or five hours later, you realize you're starving, and you didn't even 01:02:44.059 --> 01:02:46.204 realize it was five hours that went by. 01:02:46.284 --> 01:02:49.264 And during that time, you almost feel like you're downloading something. 01:02:49.724 --> 01:02:53.164 You know, sometimes you're staring at the blank page, and you're like, when when 01:02:53.164 --> 01:02:55.899 can I get this thing to to Take over here? 01:02:55.899 --> 01:02:56.399 Right? 01:02:56.619 --> 01:02:56.939 Yeah. 01:02:56.939 --> 01:02:59.419 And then when it takes over, it's there's also a feeling 01:02:59.419 --> 01:03:01.759 of ecstasy associated with it. 01:03:02.804 --> 01:03:07.124 And studies of of people who go into creative states, and they show that, 01:03:07.124 --> 01:03:10.724 yes, certain endorphins are released in states of creativity that reward 01:03:10.724 --> 01:03:12.429 you for going into those states. 01:03:13.229 --> 01:03:19.439 So there's an interesting interesting aspects of horses that let us in on 01:03:19.439 --> 01:03:23.804 certain Mysteries of the universe that we wouldn't be noticing otherwise. 01:03:23.804 --> 01:03:28.124 And like you were saying earlier, just to ride a horse, you have to do all kinds 01:03:28.124 --> 01:03:30.609 of things that are counter Dingshul. 01:03:31.069 --> 01:03:34.589 So that when a horse spooks, rather than roll over into a fetal 01:03:34.589 --> 01:03:38.704 position and grab on, because that causes the horse to go faster. 01:03:39.164 --> 01:03:43.404 You have to sit up, and you have to start breathing, and you have to 01:03:43.404 --> 01:03:47.649 sink into the saddle In order to have any hope of staying on the horse. 01:03:47.949 --> 01:03:51.789 So horses are teaching people, and people are teaching horses all the time to 01:03:51.789 --> 01:03:55.804 do things that are counterinstinctual So that we can begin to use our 01:03:55.804 --> 01:03:57.584 nervous systems for higher purposes. 01:03:59.244 --> 01:04:00.304 Rupert Isaacson: Beautifully put. 01:04:01.759 --> 01:04:06.639 To be able to do things that are counter instinctual, well, those are 01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:10.204 jolly useful skills if one's going to Be alive and thrive on planet 01:04:10.204 --> 01:04:11.984 Earth in whatever sphere, I guess. 01:04:12.684 --> 01:04:19.139 I feel that there's some aspect of dream In our relationship with horses. 01:04:19.359 --> 01:04:21.919 You know, as you say in the shamanic, for example, when I was 01:04:21.919 --> 01:04:23.734 in Mongolia with the shamans There. 01:04:23.734 --> 01:04:26.774 They talk as to the shamans in Tibet of the wind horse. 01:04:26.774 --> 01:04:30.294 You know, everybody has a wind horse, which is sort of your luck, your mojo, 01:04:30.294 --> 01:04:32.374 your but you can also ride the wind horse. 01:04:32.374 --> 01:04:33.669 It can be an Cool thing. 01:04:33.669 --> 01:04:37.289 To an altered state of consciousness if you're a trained shaman to 01:04:37.749 --> 01:04:43.264 get, Instructions from the spirit world or the ancestral world. 01:04:43.434 --> 01:04:47.594 The word in Mongolian for the wild horse, what we would call the Provalski sources, 01:04:47.594 --> 01:04:50.879 the takin, which means, Revered one. 01:04:50.879 --> 01:04:52.639 The venerable one. 01:04:52.639 --> 01:04:53.619 Honored one. 01:04:54.749 --> 01:04:57.969 This idea of of of this repository of power. 01:04:58.034 --> 01:04:59.474 And these are not the horses they ride. 01:04:59.474 --> 01:05:02.134 These are the horses that exist outside of of their domestication. 01:05:04.434 --> 01:05:07.899 We Have this idea of horses carrying us. 01:05:07.959 --> 01:05:10.219 You know, you've talked about this essentially between worlds 01:05:10.519 --> 01:05:12.059 as well as two new worlds. 01:05:12.199 --> 01:05:12.599 You know? 01:05:12.599 --> 01:05:16.024 We the conquistadors went on the back of the horse through the Yes. 01:05:16.024 --> 01:05:20.524 But the idea also of riding the wind horse, the dream horse. 01:05:20.744 --> 01:05:23.064 At some point, you were dreaming about horses. 01:05:23.064 --> 01:05:26.249 I realized that We're you know, about an hour in. 01:05:26.869 --> 01:05:30.469 I have been so into nerding out on all this that I've forgotten to ask 01:05:30.469 --> 01:05:32.464 you anything about How you got here? 01:05:32.464 --> 01:05:33.744 To live free and ride free. 01:05:33.744 --> 01:05:39.469 When was there a little girl version of yourself Dreaming about 01:05:39.469 --> 01:05:41.169 this relationship with horses. 01:05:41.229 --> 01:05:45.469 And how did you come to this point now where this is your 01:05:45.469 --> 01:05:46.654 life, this is your work? 01:05:46.734 --> 01:05:47.794 Talk us through the biography, 01:05:47.854 --> 01:05:48.354 Linda Kohanov: please. 01:05:51.774 --> 01:05:55.209 I was always enamored with horses, And I was one of these kids that 01:05:55.209 --> 01:05:59.049 would just beg for a horse every year, and my parents were afraid of them. 01:05:59.049 --> 01:06:03.049 We actually had enough land to have horses, but they were afraid of horses. 01:06:03.049 --> 01:06:09.024 And So they you know, I would have to sneak off, actually, because they 01:06:09.024 --> 01:06:10.404 wouldn't even let me take lessons. 01:06:10.629 --> 01:06:13.109 I would have to sneak off and go through the woods, and I found 01:06:13.109 --> 01:06:14.889 this old horse traders farm. 01:06:14.949 --> 01:06:20.424 And I could come up to the back of his property, and He would have this transient 01:06:20.424 --> 01:06:22.044 herd because he was a horse trainer. 01:06:22.184 --> 01:06:23.864 And some of them were ex race horses. 01:06:23.864 --> 01:06:25.784 Some of them were ex riding horses. 01:06:25.784 --> 01:06:29.039 Some of them were really old that you knew that this was their last stop 01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:32.979 on the way to the, you know, the the slaughterhouse or something like that. 01:06:33.279 --> 01:06:37.974 And some of them were very dangerous, and some of them were very calm and Suite. 01:06:38.514 --> 01:06:42.694 And I didn't have bridles or halters or a riding instructor. 01:06:43.074 --> 01:06:46.214 I would just go back there and spend hours and hours and hours. 01:06:46.879 --> 01:06:51.199 I even built a little fort right next to the the pasture where the horses were, 01:06:51.199 --> 01:06:53.219 and I would just sit out there for hours. 01:06:53.924 --> 01:06:57.924 And I would lure certain horses over to the fence if they were 01:06:57.924 --> 01:06:59.364 amenable, and I would get on them. 01:06:59.364 --> 01:07:01.364 And I would just kinda ride around bareback. 01:07:01.364 --> 01:07:03.479 And I, Of course, I had no real control. 01:07:03.479 --> 01:07:06.359 I was just a little kid, but the horse would let me on its back 01:07:06.359 --> 01:07:08.219 and carry me around, certain ones. 01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:12.924 And you could tell the difference between the ones who were and engaged and the 01:07:12.924 --> 01:07:15.024 ones who were frantic and dangerous. 01:07:15.644 --> 01:07:19.344 And so I would just learn over time how to assess. 01:07:20.749 --> 01:07:23.069 And if I hadn't have learned to assess, I probably would just 01:07:23.069 --> 01:07:25.169 be, you know, I would be dead. 01:07:26.269 --> 01:07:29.954 I would have died with one of these racehorses running over me or something. 01:07:30.434 --> 01:07:35.253 So, um, so that was a a way of developing this expanded 01:07:35.474 --> 01:07:37.253 nonverbal awareness of horses. 01:07:38.059 --> 01:07:42.559 And then I would hire myself out at the fair to people just to groom horses. 01:07:42.619 --> 01:07:48.254 And so and it was, I mean, it was such an extreme interest, but at the same 01:07:48.254 --> 01:07:51.444 time, I was I was also a musician. 01:07:52.894 --> 01:07:54.749 aNd What sorts of music? 01:07:55.069 --> 01:07:55.969 The the viola. 01:07:56.429 --> 01:07:57.109 You play the violin? 01:07:57.229 --> 01:07:58.449 The violin, viola. 01:07:58.749 --> 01:07:59.869 I I play the viola. 01:07:59.869 --> 01:08:01.389 I I was actually a music major. 01:08:01.389 --> 01:08:04.914 I got a full Scholarship to be a viola major in college. 01:08:04.914 --> 01:08:07.954 And so I played in a lot of symphonies and chamber music groups. 01:08:07.954 --> 01:08:11.333 But as you're growing up and you're learning to play an instrument like this 01:08:11.499 --> 01:08:15.199 And you're playing in lots of chamber groups since I was ten years old. 01:08:15.849 --> 01:08:19.434 And then in in high school, we had orchestra Five days a week, and I 01:08:19.434 --> 01:08:21.034 was in chamber music groups as well. 01:08:21.034 --> 01:08:25.594 So I'm spending hours and hours in in this place with the horses that I was 01:08:25.594 --> 01:08:30.569 sneaking off to see and with the music in this Place of nonverbal awareness expanded 01:08:30.569 --> 01:08:35.309 nonverbal awareness and engagement with others in a nonverbal setting. 01:08:36.034 --> 01:08:39.734 anD you have to be really present also as a musician. 01:08:41.394 --> 01:08:44.909 You learn how to To actually be in symphonies where you're 01:08:44.909 --> 01:08:47.569 portraying strong emotions at times. 01:08:47.869 --> 01:08:51.794 And, you know, when you have a brass section behind you And you're they're 01:08:51.794 --> 01:08:54.454 projecting out to a full audience. 01:08:55.024 --> 01:08:59.789 That is moving that that sound of those brass instruments behind you is Actually, 01:09:00.009 --> 01:09:02.269 rattling your entire nervous system. 01:09:02.489 --> 01:09:05.850 And in the middle of that, you have to stay present with what you're supposed to 01:09:05.850 --> 01:09:08.064 play, But you have to be emotive enough. 01:09:08.064 --> 01:09:12.864 So if you're, like, riding the wings of the angels into ecstasy and you're not 01:09:12.864 --> 01:09:16.129 present with what's happening at the same time, you know, the both Lies out 01:09:16.129 --> 01:09:17.569 of your hand, and it hits the conductor. 01:09:17.569 --> 01:09:20.390 And he falls off, and the whole thing comes to a crashing halt. 01:09:20.609 --> 01:09:24.950 So with music also, you learn how to be present in the midst of wild, 01:09:25.364 --> 01:09:30.084 Strong nervous system invigorating things that are happening. 01:09:30.084 --> 01:09:31.864 So I think those two things together. 01:09:32.379 --> 01:09:36.379 And then when I started to to write, I was also a music journalist. 01:09:36.379 --> 01:09:39.469 So I was learning how to I was learning how to write about things 01:09:39.469 --> 01:09:41.089 that were hard to put into words. 01:09:41.614 --> 01:09:47.634 So by the time I was got my first horse when I was in Tucson working as a 01:09:48.013 --> 01:09:52.729 classical radio announcer and a jazz radio announcer sir, and a music journalist. 01:09:54.069 --> 01:09:59.673 I I I noticed how easy it was For people in Tucson to have horses. 01:09:59.673 --> 01:10:00.794 You don't have to have barns. 01:10:00.794 --> 01:10:03.934 You don't have to worry about ice and snow and mud here. 01:10:04.394 --> 01:10:07.909 You can just have a nice Shade cover for the horses in your backyard 01:10:07.909 --> 01:10:09.189 and have a couple of horses. 01:10:09.189 --> 01:10:10.249 It's not a big deal. 01:10:10.549 --> 01:10:13.269 So I and finally in my thirties, I said, you know what? 01:10:13.269 --> 01:10:14.314 I'm getting a horse. 01:10:14.554 --> 01:10:18.314 Because, actually, I wanted to get a horse to get as far away from 01:10:18.314 --> 01:10:21.774 people on a regular basis because people were driving me insane. 01:10:23.114 --> 01:10:26.779 Because I had You know, most people suppress emotion. 01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:30.119 The average person's taught to suppress emotion and wear a mask 01:10:30.119 --> 01:10:31.819 of whatever's socially acceptable. 01:10:32.964 --> 01:10:37.464 Musicians are taught to express emotion, and they're rewarded 01:10:37.604 --> 01:10:39.384 handsomely for it in some cases. 01:10:40.244 --> 01:10:46.069 But both of these Suppression and expression exploits are two sides 01:10:46.069 --> 01:10:47.769 of the same dysfunctional coin. 01:10:48.629 --> 01:10:51.284 And so when I got my first horse, I was just Like, these 01:10:51.284 --> 01:10:53.044 musicians are driving me crazy. 01:10:53.044 --> 01:10:55.684 These regular people are driving me crazy. 01:10:55.684 --> 01:10:56.884 I just have to get out of here. 01:10:56.884 --> 01:10:57.684 And you know what? 01:10:57.684 --> 01:10:58.964 I have enough money finally. 01:10:58.964 --> 01:11:00.024 I'm getting a horse. 01:11:00.469 --> 01:11:05.769 And so I got my first horse to get away from people, but what I noticed 01:11:05.829 --> 01:11:10.874 was that the horse Was showing me a different form of emotional intelligence. 01:11:11.014 --> 01:11:17.009 So people who express emotion never get The message behind it and change something 01:11:17.009 --> 01:11:20.469 response and go back to grace, and they just express and express and express. 01:11:20.769 --> 01:11:25.264 And people who suppress emotion Never get past that first step either. 01:11:25.484 --> 01:11:25.964 You know? 01:11:25.964 --> 01:11:30.304 So when I noticed horses having this four point method of emotional 01:11:30.444 --> 01:11:34.384 agility it was like they brought me back into the capacity to engage 01:11:34.384 --> 01:11:36.384 with people in a more productive way. 01:11:36.384 --> 01:11:38.988 So the four step method was I could see it. 01:11:38.988 --> 01:11:42.748 It took me about five years to put this into words, but horses feel 01:11:42.748 --> 01:11:44.928 the emotion in its purest form. 01:11:45.548 --> 01:11:47.808 Then they get the message behind the emotion. 01:11:47.948 --> 01:11:51.373 Then something in response to the message, and then they let it 01:11:51.373 --> 01:11:52.753 go, and they go back to grazing. 01:11:53.293 --> 01:11:56.193 Whereas most people don't get past step one. 01:11:56.333 --> 01:12:00.498 Expressors Feel the emotion, but they never get the message and 01:12:00.498 --> 01:12:01.798 change something in response. 01:12:01.938 --> 01:12:06.523 There's all kinds of musicians we see who get rewarded For engaging in ill 01:12:06.523 --> 01:12:10.444 fated relationships so they can write the next hit song about, you know, she 01:12:10.444 --> 01:12:12.223 done me wrong or something like that. 01:12:12.683 --> 01:12:18.348 Or in rap music, They'll put themselves especially in the early rap music, they 01:12:18.348 --> 01:12:22.288 would put themselves into situations that would drum up large amounts of rage. 01:12:22.988 --> 01:12:26.233 And And so then they wouldn't really get the message behind that either. 01:12:26.233 --> 01:12:29.833 They're just rage, rage, rage, or sadness, sadness, or crying 01:12:29.833 --> 01:12:31.213 in your beer country music. 01:12:31.753 --> 01:12:33.558 And Putting Putting a tear in your 01:12:33.558 --> 01:12:33.718 Rupert Isaacson: beer. 01:12:33.878 --> 01:12:35.018 To live a life. 01:12:35.158 --> 01:12:35.658 Yeah. 01:12:36.118 --> 01:12:36.618 Pardon? 01:12:36.758 --> 01:12:38.198 Putting a tear in your beer. 01:12:38.198 --> 01:12:38.698 Yeah. 01:12:39.478 --> 01:12:39.798 Linda Kohanov: Right. 01:12:39.798 --> 01:12:40.298 Exactly. 01:12:40.518 --> 01:12:40.998 Yes. 01:12:40.998 --> 01:12:42.458 Putting a tear in your beer. 01:12:42.953 --> 01:12:47.133 So, um, so when I was with horses, I'm like, oh, they have the answer. 01:12:47.273 --> 01:12:47.513 You know? 01:12:47.513 --> 01:12:49.673 The suppressors don't even get to step one. 01:12:49.673 --> 01:12:52.449 They do everything they can To not feel an emotion. 01:12:52.989 --> 01:12:56.188 The expressors feel an emotion, but they never get to the other steps. 01:12:56.188 --> 01:12:59.089 And then I noticed horses were doing this very intelligent 01:12:59.149 --> 01:13:01.213 thing, And it changed my life. 01:13:01.913 --> 01:13:04.493 Rupert Isaacson: So talk talk us through it step by step. 01:13:05.513 --> 01:13:06.013 Exactly. 01:13:06.393 --> 01:13:09.738 Step one, step two, step three, step four, and at what point you 01:13:09.818 --> 01:13:11.838 You really first observed this. 01:13:14.298 --> 01:13:17.418 Linda Kohanov: One of the things I first observed, and this seemed magical, 01:13:17.418 --> 01:13:23.433 it seemed miraculous, Was that when I would go out to the barn, people 01:13:23.433 --> 01:13:26.768 would say they were fine, You know? 01:13:26.768 --> 01:13:30.468 Or or act like everything was okay or act really macho about something or another. 01:13:31.838 --> 01:13:34.803 But I could actually Tell what emotional state they were in by 01:13:34.803 --> 01:13:36.003 the way their horse was acting. 01:13:36.003 --> 01:13:39.303 It didn't didn't take me very long to start noticing that pattern. 01:13:39.843 --> 01:13:45.238 So, You know, horses will act, consent, and then act out sometimes 01:13:45.538 --> 01:13:47.718 the exact emotions somebody's hiding. 01:13:47.938 --> 01:13:48.098 So 01:13:48.098 --> 01:13:51.283 Rupert Isaacson: you were keeping your horse, Your first horse at a barn where 01:13:51.283 --> 01:13:54.743 other people were keeping their horses, and you got to observe this interaction. 01:13:56.163 --> 01:13:56.598 Linda Kohanov: Yes. 01:13:56.998 --> 01:13:58.518 And for a while, I was like, wow. 01:13:58.518 --> 01:13:59.478 That is fascinating. 01:13:59.478 --> 01:14:00.598 How is that even possible? 01:14:00.598 --> 01:14:03.984 And, I mean, now there are ways that I can explain it and which That's 01:14:03.984 --> 01:14:07.743 why I've written a number of books, and I do explain it more in my video 01:14:07.743 --> 01:14:12.708 courses where I really go through what it what is, How are horses doing 01:14:12.708 --> 01:14:13.908 this, and what are they teaching us? 01:14:13.908 --> 01:14:15.348 And how are humans doing it too? 01:14:15.348 --> 01:14:17.048 We're just not conscious of it. 01:14:17.428 --> 01:14:19.608 Is that emotions are contagious, basically. 01:14:20.173 --> 01:14:24.173 And when you suppress an emotion, actually, it causes your blood 01:14:24.173 --> 01:14:27.053 pressure to rise, and it causes the blood pressure of everyone 01:14:27.053 --> 01:14:28.753 interacting with you to rise also. 01:14:29.118 --> 01:14:32.498 That's a study in social intelligence by Daniel Goleman. 01:14:32.958 --> 01:14:39.143 And so horses just as empaths And being more fully present than we 01:14:39.143 --> 01:14:43.403 are, have the capacity to sense the emotion underneath the mask or facade. 01:14:44.183 --> 01:14:47.818 And they will Act it out or just walk away from it. 01:14:48.118 --> 01:14:52.358 And when a person becomes congruent, when the person actually acknowledges the 01:14:52.358 --> 01:14:57.193 hidden emotion, The horse will often come back over and engage even if you haven't 01:14:57.253 --> 01:14:59.593 done anything to solve the emotion. 01:15:00.213 --> 01:15:07.218 Because, Like, one of one of the most powerful things I ever saw was a woman 01:15:07.218 --> 01:15:11.243 who had been raped who was coming out to do some work to be feel more 01:15:11.243 --> 01:15:13.023 empowered and step back into life. 01:15:13.483 --> 01:15:20.099 And she went in with this horse named Sam, and she, She started crying, 01:15:20.718 --> 01:15:25.538 and the horse just went and flipped his mane and walked away from her. 01:15:26.253 --> 01:15:29.393 And she was like you could imagine what she felt. 01:15:29.853 --> 01:15:30.173 You know? 01:15:30.223 --> 01:15:32.323 She's being rejected by the horse now. 01:15:32.383 --> 01:15:35.248 And she's like, well, everybody's just telling me I should just get over 01:15:35.248 --> 01:15:40.048 this and everybody's, you know, um, they're just tired of all of my tears. 01:15:40.048 --> 01:15:41.168 And and I said, no. 01:15:41.168 --> 01:15:41.328 No. 01:15:41.328 --> 01:15:42.608 I don't think that's what's going on. 01:15:42.608 --> 01:15:45.953 I think There's an emotion underneath the tears that you're not acknowledging 01:15:45.953 --> 01:15:50.373 or because this horse act what do you think that horse was was conveying? 01:15:51.258 --> 01:15:55.018 What emotion do you think that horse was conveying as he, like, tossed his 01:15:55.018 --> 01:15:58.538 head and sputtered sort of marched off? 01:15:58.538 --> 01:16:00.318 And she goes, well, you look kind of angry. 01:16:01.603 --> 01:16:02.323 I said, yeah. 01:16:02.323 --> 01:16:07.463 And I said, so is there any anger underneath the tears? 01:16:08.468 --> 01:16:10.948 And she realized that, yes. 01:16:10.948 --> 01:16:14.948 I mean, anger really is an emotion that's about that rises when somebody's 01:16:14.948 --> 01:16:16.488 overstepped a boundary with you. 01:16:16.548 --> 01:16:17.768 And it's the emotion. 01:16:18.143 --> 01:16:21.423 The intensity of anger is is supposed to let you set a 01:16:21.423 --> 01:16:23.523 boundary if you use it properly. 01:16:23.933 --> 01:16:28.068 And so that's One of the ultimate boundary violations is to be raped. 01:16:28.769 --> 01:16:32.769 So, yeah, she had sadness, and her life had been turned upside down. 01:16:32.769 --> 01:16:37.243 But underneath was this Absolute outrage at her entire life 01:16:37.243 --> 01:16:38.623 being turned upside down. 01:16:39.003 --> 01:16:42.683 So she started to access this anger, and she started pounding on the fence 01:16:42.683 --> 01:16:45.138 post and talking about this, You know? 01:16:45.198 --> 01:16:51.278 I'm really starting to to show the true body language associated with anger. 01:16:51.278 --> 01:16:55.103 And that horse turned around and came back over And wrapped his head around 01:16:55.103 --> 01:16:57.283 her as she pounded on the fence post. 01:16:58.383 --> 01:17:06.788 So it was like the horse Didn't was less upset about whatever she was feeling than 01:17:06.788 --> 01:17:10.728 the horse was more aggravated by the fact that she was hiding a strong emotion. 01:17:11.273 --> 01:17:14.393 And once she accessed the strong emotion, as long as she wasn't directing 01:17:14.393 --> 01:17:18.413 it at the horse, the horse was like, I can be here with you in that. 01:17:19.148 --> 01:17:19.628 You know? 01:17:19.628 --> 01:17:25.148 And so when people are crying sincere tears of sadness or grief, horses 01:17:25.148 --> 01:17:27.033 will often come over and comfort them. 01:17:27.273 --> 01:17:31.433 But also, if there's sincere anger that's legitimate that's being accessed, 01:17:31.433 --> 01:17:34.733 I've seen horses walk over and be present with a person during that too. 01:17:35.353 --> 01:17:41.678 So, You know, when we're when we're afraid or we're feeling vulnerable, the 01:17:41.678 --> 01:17:46.373 worst as long as you acknowledge that, One of these more therapeutic oriented, 01:17:46.513 --> 01:17:51.528 healing oriented horses will come back over and actually do what Steven 01:17:51.528 --> 01:17:53.868 Porches would call coregulating you. 01:17:54.088 --> 01:17:58.648 The horse will reach out and be present with you and connect with you in 01:17:58.648 --> 01:18:00.749 the midst of this authentic emotion. 01:18:01.333 --> 01:18:04.793 So there's so many brilliant things that horses do emotionally. 01:18:05.973 --> 01:18:10.689 And, you know, that four point method and then You know, I I did some research 01:18:10.988 --> 01:18:16.298 into various emotional intelligence authors and found some useful definitions 01:18:16.298 --> 01:18:20.313 of the various emotions that I put into an emotional message chart. 01:18:20.933 --> 01:18:22.933 And so I teach that as well. 01:18:22.933 --> 01:18:27.878 And the horses generally respond to those emotional definitions So that, you 01:18:27.878 --> 01:18:30.538 know, negative emotions aren't mistakes. 01:18:31.078 --> 01:18:32.598 They're not designed to torture us. 01:18:32.598 --> 01:18:35.723 They are course correcting emotions, And they're uncomfortable because 01:18:35.723 --> 01:18:37.263 they're asking us to change something. 01:18:37.484 --> 01:18:40.303 If we were comfortable, we wouldn't bother to change something. 01:18:40.603 --> 01:18:43.918 So when horses teach us how to use emotions as Course correcting 01:18:43.918 --> 01:18:47.758 signals, and then we learn how to move through them and then go back 01:18:47.758 --> 01:18:50.578 to grazing, your whole life changes. 01:18:50.638 --> 01:18:52.513 It Truly changed my life. 01:18:52.513 --> 01:18:55.234 Just that one piece, let alone all the other wild things I've 01:18:55.234 --> 01:18:56.613 learned over time with them. 01:18:57.953 --> 01:18:59.573 Rupert Isaacson: Let's go back to these four points. 01:19:00.358 --> 01:19:04.518 Can you what what are the four points of that constellation, and can you 01:19:04.518 --> 01:19:05.898 walk us through how they progress? 01:19:07.923 --> 01:19:08.423 Linda Kohanov: Sure. 01:19:08.643 --> 01:19:12.263 So the first step is you feel the emotion in its purest form. 01:19:12.323 --> 01:19:16.343 Rather than suppressing it, you actually notice that it's there. 01:19:16.518 --> 01:19:17.018 Yeah. 01:19:17.318 --> 01:19:20.938 The next thing you do is you get the message behind the emotion, 01:19:22.198 --> 01:19:24.778 then you change something in response to the emotion. 01:19:25.093 --> 01:19:27.573 You take its advice on some level, and then you let it go 01:19:27.573 --> 01:19:28.693 and you go back to grazing. 01:19:28.693 --> 01:19:33.513 So in the case of fear, a horse would say, I feel fear. 01:19:34.328 --> 01:19:37.458 And horses can transmit fear at a distance to each other. 01:19:37.458 --> 01:19:39.618 I've been in that position where I've felt it. 01:19:39.618 --> 01:19:40.018 Yeah. 01:19:40.018 --> 01:19:42.337 So I you know, horse says, okay. 01:19:42.337 --> 01:19:43.317 I'm feeling fear. 01:19:43.603 --> 01:19:45.843 And then what is the message behind fear? 01:19:45.843 --> 01:19:47.463 Well, there's a threat in the environment. 01:19:47.683 --> 01:19:48.963 So you go, what's the threat? 01:19:48.963 --> 01:19:50.663 What do I do to move to safety? 01:19:50.883 --> 01:19:52.323 And then so you get the message. 01:19:52.323 --> 01:19:53.303 What is the threat? 01:19:53.558 --> 01:19:57.048 And then you move to safety is the third step. 01:19:57.618 --> 01:19:59.218 So the first step is feel the emotion. 01:19:59.218 --> 01:20:02.493 The second step is Get the message behind the emotion. 01:20:02.793 --> 01:20:05.833 The third step is change something in response to the emotion. 01:20:05.833 --> 01:20:08.093 So, yeah, I see there's a lion walking up. 01:20:08.558 --> 01:20:09.678 I get the message, yes. 01:20:09.678 --> 01:20:11.218 This lion is on the prowl. 01:20:11.518 --> 01:20:12.658 Now I'm gonna run. 01:20:13.278 --> 01:20:15.758 And then when I get to a position of safety, I'm gonna let it go, 01:20:15.758 --> 01:20:17.203 and I'm gonna go back to Grace. 01:20:17.444 --> 01:20:20.403 Horses, as far as I can tell, don't stay up all night 01:20:20.403 --> 01:20:22.503 debating why God invented lions. 01:20:23.203 --> 01:20:25.828 They just like, oh, The lion's on the prowl. 01:20:25.968 --> 01:20:26.868 He's a threat. 01:20:27.008 --> 01:20:27.828 Let's run. 01:20:27.968 --> 01:20:31.763 They get far enough away, and they get their sentinels up Who are 01:20:31.763 --> 01:20:35.123 ready to, you know, protect against the lion, and then they just all 01:20:35.123 --> 01:20:36.963 lean down and start grazing again. 01:20:36.963 --> 01:20:37.623 It's brilliant. 01:20:37.923 --> 01:20:38.003 Yeah. 01:20:38.003 --> 01:20:38.163 It 01:20:38.163 --> 01:20:38.323 Rupert Isaacson: is. 01:20:38.323 --> 01:20:44.089 I've I've I've observed the same behavior in, Hunted deer getting away from 01:20:44.089 --> 01:20:48.853 wolves or or or other other predators predator prey things where, Let's 01:20:48.853 --> 01:20:54.873 say an animal was pursued quite hard, sometimes was even grabbed but got away. 01:20:56.508 --> 01:21:01.628 Sometimes what one will see is a sort of shuddering off of the or the 01:21:01.628 --> 01:21:03.408 cortisol, all of the stress hormone. 01:21:04.234 --> 01:21:07.214 But then as you say, they don't then go for ten years of therapy. 01:21:07.433 --> 01:21:10.944 They return to their previous behavior Pretty quickly. 01:21:11.084 --> 01:21:11.484 Right. 01:21:11.484 --> 01:21:15.564 So it it it is is the great lesson that we're learning 01:21:15.564 --> 01:21:16.864 from horses here resilience? 01:21:18.939 --> 01:21:19.439 Linda Kohanov: Yes. 01:21:19.499 --> 01:21:19.999 Absolutely. 01:21:20.299 --> 01:21:20.799 Resilience. 01:21:21.658 --> 01:21:26.624 And they are they are they can also be in states Put in states of learned 01:21:26.624 --> 01:21:32.324 helplessness or appeasement or, you know, certain kinds of post traumatic 01:21:32.629 --> 01:21:34.629 Stress reactions you'll see in horses. 01:21:34.629 --> 01:21:35.109 Right. 01:21:35.109 --> 01:21:39.049 But when there's when there's there's a shift in the environment 01:21:39.109 --> 01:21:42.734 and a real connection with somebody who truly understands dance, how 01:21:42.734 --> 01:21:44.234 to help them move through this. 01:21:44.534 --> 01:21:48.154 They generally move through these things much quicker than the average human does. 01:21:48.854 --> 01:21:49.174 Yeah. 01:21:49.174 --> 01:21:50.214 So they are more 01:21:50.214 --> 01:21:50.649 Rupert Isaacson: result. 01:21:50.729 --> 01:21:51.549 I would agree. 01:21:51.609 --> 01:21:58.408 And and, interestingly, having spent so much time with hunting 01:21:58.408 --> 01:22:03.614 and gathering people, I have seen them undergo great trauma. 01:22:04.264 --> 01:22:08.109 You can imagine some of the unpleasant things that happen To people in those 01:22:08.109 --> 01:22:12.049 situations when other people are trying to come in and get their land and so on. 01:22:12.509 --> 01:22:16.689 And what I've observed every time is is is an extraordinary resilience where 01:22:16.689 --> 01:22:18.609 they don't lose their quality of life. 01:22:18.609 --> 01:22:20.469 They don't use their lose their playfulness. 01:22:20.529 --> 01:22:23.349 They don't lose their ability to be happy. 01:22:24.034 --> 01:22:24.994 anD you said, well, why not? 01:22:24.994 --> 01:22:27.714 You know, this this terrible thing happened to you again. 01:22:27.714 --> 01:22:28.934 It's not the first time. 01:22:28.994 --> 01:22:30.194 And they're like, well, yes. 01:22:30.194 --> 01:22:35.574 But we grew up, you know, dodging elephants and lions, and we do 01:22:35.574 --> 01:22:39.409 accept that, yeah, If it reaches a certain point, it becomes 01:22:39.409 --> 01:22:41.109 untenable, and we will shut down. 01:22:41.409 --> 01:22:45.804 But until that point arrives we will Be resilient. 01:22:46.344 --> 01:22:50.984 And I learned much from them because they had at their core of their culture, 01:22:50.984 --> 01:22:55.629 if they're lucky, you know, a shaman, A healer who's trained to go into an 01:22:55.629 --> 01:23:00.129 altered state of consciousness and, you know, help with this process. 01:23:00.829 --> 01:23:04.504 I wonder if in Our society where, of course, you know, we went 01:23:04.504 --> 01:23:06.344 through the witch burning centuries. 01:23:06.344 --> 01:23:11.359 We sort of put to death anybody who male or female who knew anything about herbs, 01:23:11.359 --> 01:23:13.939 let alone could access the spirit world. 01:23:16.284 --> 01:23:18.064 And so we broke that tradition. 01:23:18.234 --> 01:23:23.384 But having been around, say, not just the Kalahari sun bushmen, but also, you know, 01:23:23.384 --> 01:23:31.569 for example, You know, horse and reindeer, shamans in Mongolia, they have this, and 01:23:31.569 --> 01:23:32.794 they're using the power of the horse. 01:23:33.034 --> 01:23:36.234 Do we have with horses a shaman in our midst? 01:23:36.234 --> 01:23:43.179 Do we have a healer in our midst when we're lucky enough to be Part 01:23:43.179 --> 01:23:47.519 of a horse culture, even if it's, you know, a sport horse culture in a barn. 01:23:47.819 --> 01:23:49.099 And then here's a question. 01:23:49.099 --> 01:23:54.704 If we do have this shaman in our midst, if the horses Heal us in this 01:23:54.704 --> 01:23:59.344 way, showing us this resilience, walking us between these walls. 01:23:59.344 --> 01:24:01.844 How do we not be parasitic on them? 01:24:02.169 --> 01:24:07.389 How do we make sure it's symbiotic with all our intense monkey stuff 01:24:07.529 --> 01:24:09.149 that we tend to bring to things? 01:24:11.254 --> 01:24:17.199 Linda Kohanov: Well, I think you know, horses lure you back Into a deeper 01:24:17.199 --> 01:24:19.299 connection with nature and being present. 01:24:20.109 --> 01:24:27.223 They're they're transforming us Just from that action alone and causing us 01:24:27.303 --> 01:24:31.783 if we if we will sit in the presence of horses and allow them to influence 01:24:31.783 --> 01:24:36.558 us, We begin to feel and hear and see things that we're disconnected from, 01:24:36.558 --> 01:24:41.234 and so we feel connected to a much larger Vision of the universe that's 01:24:41.234 --> 01:24:45.973 fully aware and conscious and, in some sense, benevolent in so many ways. 01:24:46.593 --> 01:24:48.879 And We begin to notice things. 01:24:48.879 --> 01:24:52.978 And, you know, you just reminded me, and I I was looking this up as you were talking 01:24:52.978 --> 01:24:59.023 about You know, because I'm a I was a music major, and I I also bring music 01:24:59.023 --> 01:25:02.483 into a lot of the workshops too because it's a form of nonverbal communication. 01:25:02.623 --> 01:25:05.498 It opens creativity and Mind body awareness. 01:25:05.958 --> 01:25:10.538 But there's all kinds of musical mysticism associated with the fact that 01:25:11.078 --> 01:25:15.344 the ancient Greeks were more obsessed With what they called the music of the 01:25:15.344 --> 01:25:20.943 spheres, the music of the stars and the planets that's actually you can't really 01:25:20.943 --> 01:25:25.349 hear it or Feel it unless you really slow down and become really present. 01:25:25.809 --> 01:25:29.409 And they were they were really obsessed with this more than actual music that we 01:25:29.409 --> 01:25:31.893 make out of instruments Or with our voice. 01:25:32.593 --> 01:25:38.989 And I just saw in this Facebook post recently A reference to the lost 01:25:38.989 --> 01:25:44.049 world of the Kalahari, and Lawrence Vander Post was was living amid 01:25:44.269 --> 01:25:46.209 the bushmen in the Kalahari Desert. 01:25:46.749 --> 01:25:51.964 And He describes how shocked they were that he couldn't hear the stars. 01:25:52.663 --> 01:25:55.884 They actually felt really bad for him, like he had some major disability. 01:25:56.709 --> 01:26:03.159 And so, I mean, horses lead us back into that deep connection with nature 01:26:03.734 --> 01:26:07.094 Where we can begin to feel things we've never noticed before, and then 01:26:07.094 --> 01:26:11.413 maybe maybe eventually going into these deeper states where you can actually 01:26:11.413 --> 01:26:16.449 hear the music of the stars in the planets and and the first om that 01:26:16.749 --> 01:26:18.829 sort of sang the universe into being. 01:26:18.829 --> 01:26:21.789 So there's one of these mystical connections the horses are making 01:26:21.789 --> 01:26:27.944 for us At any time that we're willing to sit quietly with them. 01:26:27.944 --> 01:26:28.184 You know? 01:26:28.184 --> 01:26:31.384 We can do things with them, but I think sitting quietly with them is an 01:26:31.384 --> 01:26:35.929 important part of Accepting the healing potential they have for us and the 01:26:35.929 --> 01:26:37.709 wholeness that they're offering us. 01:26:38.169 --> 01:26:42.094 But also I had and I talk about this in my second book, Riding Between the 01:26:42.094 --> 01:26:46.594 Worlds, and in my book, Way of the Horse, which is a set of horse wisdom cards. 01:26:47.229 --> 01:26:53.293 My one horse, Rasa, who was really my my shamanic horse who led me Into 01:26:53.293 --> 01:26:54.994 multiple states of consciousness. 01:26:56.014 --> 01:26:57.474 She had twins. 01:26:57.773 --> 01:27:00.814 She had twin foals, and we we tried to prevent this. 01:27:00.814 --> 01:27:03.369 You're you try to prevent Horses having twins. 01:27:03.369 --> 01:27:07.209 But somehow, the whole thing slipped through the cracks, and she ended 01:27:07.209 --> 01:27:09.069 up having twins born prematurely. 01:27:10.009 --> 01:27:14.953 And one of them was stillborn, And the other one was born so premature 01:27:14.953 --> 01:27:18.743 that we had to he needed twenty four hour care for ten weeks. 01:27:18.743 --> 01:27:22.298 We had to, like, put him in a sling so So that he wouldn't damage 01:27:22.298 --> 01:27:24.459 his legs because he shouldn't have been out of the womb yet. 01:27:24.459 --> 01:27:28.539 We had to have him lean up against our body, or he would have seizures because 01:27:28.539 --> 01:27:32.593 he wasn't supposed To be out of the womb regulating his own nervous system yet. 01:27:33.003 --> 01:27:37.583 We had to milk Rasa and feed this bull who we named Spirit. 01:27:38.289 --> 01:27:42.479 And so while I was spending lots of time with this bull I would I would 01:27:42.479 --> 01:27:46.334 pretty much spend the night with them, and I would Have this full up against 01:27:46.474 --> 01:27:50.794 my body so that my nervous system would would stabilize his, and then 01:27:50.794 --> 01:27:55.049 Rasa would literally stand over me in the Oh, and and I would fall asleep. 01:27:55.109 --> 01:27:59.509 And then then when I would wake up I would wake up, she would be, you 01:27:59.509 --> 01:28:04.234 know, sort of hitting me with her hoof like a mare Sorta hits their full to 01:28:04.234 --> 01:28:06.474 get that full to stand up and nurse. 01:28:06.474 --> 01:28:09.679 Well, she figured out that it was me who was gonna do it, So then I 01:28:09.679 --> 01:28:13.359 would have to get up and milk her and then feed this horse and spirit. 01:28:13.359 --> 01:28:17.699 And I started to reflect on the symbology of twins. 01:28:19.224 --> 01:28:23.304 And I looked up because I'm you know, us writers, we're 01:28:23.304 --> 01:28:24.344 always doing stuff like that. 01:28:24.344 --> 01:28:24.844 Right? 01:28:24.984 --> 01:28:27.224 So you have a thought, then you have to go research it because 01:28:27.224 --> 01:28:30.729 it feels like it's It would be an interesting way to to handle something. 01:28:30.789 --> 01:28:35.929 And what I found was twins, particularly male twins, are associated 01:28:35.989 --> 01:28:38.574 with horses In multiple cultures. 01:28:38.634 --> 01:28:39.774 I mean, it's insane. 01:28:40.234 --> 01:28:40.554 Mhmm. 01:28:40.554 --> 01:28:47.319 And one of the one of the aspects of twin mythology associated Deed with horses, 01:28:47.319 --> 01:28:52.139 is that one one twin dies and connects the living twin to the other world. 01:28:52.759 --> 01:28:59.254 And so that it really is It it really is about having the ability to 01:28:59.254 --> 01:29:01.274 access twin forms of consciousness. 01:29:02.294 --> 01:29:07.579 And, So now when I teach people to go into what we might call 01:29:07.579 --> 01:29:11.439 shamanic states, we don't associate it with a particular religion. 01:29:11.499 --> 01:29:15.944 I use this horse mythology to talk about accessing the twin forms of 01:29:15.944 --> 01:29:19.964 consciousness, the logical earthly twin with a set location in time and space 01:29:20.239 --> 01:29:24.959 And that otherworldly twin that can move through walls and move back and forth 01:29:24.959 --> 01:29:26.959 through time and space and change form. 01:29:26.959 --> 01:29:31.584 And, like, One of the one of the first journeys we do in workshops 01:29:31.584 --> 01:29:35.984 where we exercise this ability is we have the person become the horse. 01:29:35.984 --> 01:29:40.339 We have their Then connect with this twin form of consciousness and with drumming 01:29:40.339 --> 01:29:45.514 and some evocative music, actually have that twin Human form morphed into a horse, 01:29:45.514 --> 01:29:47.694 and then you have an adventure as a horse. 01:29:48.234 --> 01:29:53.859 And there's a lot of Shamanic traditions in horse based cultures where the shaman 01:29:53.859 --> 01:29:56.119 becomes a horse during the trans states. 01:29:56.739 --> 01:30:02.874 So, I you know, I've even read where some of the shamans have, like, you know, sort 01:30:02.874 --> 01:30:06.479 of rings in their shamanic robe where Somebody holds a pair of reins as they 01:30:06.479 --> 01:30:12.109 go into this shamanic state and expand outward into that place where they might 01:30:12.109 --> 01:30:18.243 also be ridden by form of spiritual, you know, spiritual presence of some kind. 01:30:18.783 --> 01:30:22.958 So, what I think the horses are doing is offering at Every moment 01:30:22.958 --> 01:30:27.778 for anybody to learn how to exercise this twin form of consciousness 01:30:28.558 --> 01:30:30.398 to go into these shamanic states. 01:30:30.398 --> 01:30:33.623 They're not They're not just saying I'm gonna do this for you. 01:30:33.623 --> 01:30:35.322 They're saying, let's do this. 01:30:35.862 --> 01:30:37.782 Let me show you what you can do. 01:30:37.782 --> 01:30:39.543 Let me show you where you can go. 01:30:39.543 --> 01:30:42.668 Let me show you how to access this information you're in yourself. 01:30:43.128 --> 01:30:48.248 So I think when we when we have the horse not just take the journey for 01:30:48.248 --> 01:30:53.543 us, but Teach us how to journey in this way ourselves, then everyone has 01:30:53.543 --> 01:30:59.278 the potential to Engage what we would call a shamanic form of consciousness 01:30:59.978 --> 01:31:03.418 for all kinds of reasons without necessarily feeling like you you're 01:31:03.418 --> 01:31:05.338 gonna over identify as a shaman. 01:31:05.338 --> 01:31:08.683 But it just seems like the horses are saying this is a birthright of everybody. 01:31:09.623 --> 01:31:09.943 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:31:09.943 --> 01:31:13.302 I So What the Bushmen would better than you What the Bushmen have always 01:31:13.302 --> 01:31:18.232 said to me is, well, Rue about fifty percent of people or more can heal I. 01:31:18.232 --> 01:31:18.632 E. 01:31:18.632 --> 01:31:22.972 Access that shamanic state for healing or for hunting and magic or for 01:31:23.267 --> 01:31:26.867 Other things that you might need to use it for, plant magic and so on. 01:31:26.867 --> 01:31:32.087 However, only a a small minority of people feel a kind of vocational calling 01:31:32.422 --> 01:31:36.342 Towards that, and therefore, we'll go on and go through the, you know, many 01:31:36.342 --> 01:31:40.207 decades of rigorous training that are required in actually doing it, know, 01:31:40.207 --> 01:31:41.827 becoming the shaman for the community. 01:31:41.967 --> 01:31:42.767 But I think you're right. 01:31:42.767 --> 01:31:46.987 And and something which is interesting from what you say there is you know, 01:31:46.987 --> 01:31:50.302 if someone's listening to this I'm thinking, well, I'm not a horse person. 01:31:50.522 --> 01:31:53.422 And I think the point that you're making is, yeah, but you don't need to be. 01:31:54.362 --> 01:32:00.637 yOu don't need to be a dog person to, Get a benefit from being around dogs. 01:32:00.637 --> 01:32:04.157 You do not need to be a musician to access an altered state 01:32:04.157 --> 01:32:05.197 of consciousness with music. 01:32:05.197 --> 01:32:06.312 Any of us would know that. 01:32:06.312 --> 01:32:11.352 You do not need to be a horse person to be able to access this through horses. 01:32:11.352 --> 01:32:14.752 However, what one does need because horses are so big and 01:32:15.532 --> 01:32:19.292 sometimes, you know, unpredictable, is that one does need a guide. 01:32:19.292 --> 01:32:24.857 One does need a a a guardian, a safe keeper To help one interact 01:32:25.397 --> 01:32:28.537 with a horse if one doesn't have, quote, unquote, horse knowledge. 01:32:28.677 --> 01:32:29.177 Sure. 01:32:29.427 --> 01:32:32.012 Another another Of those metaphors in our culture. 01:32:32.012 --> 01:32:32.492 Horse sense. 01:32:32.492 --> 01:32:36.972 If someone has good horse sense, meaning an ability to to navigate through life 01:32:36.972 --> 01:32:38.652 that we we we call it that, don't we? 01:32:38.652 --> 01:32:39.257 Horse sense. 01:32:39.767 --> 01:32:45.467 And I I I think that there's a real benefit for that. 01:32:45.527 --> 01:32:48.232 If you're listening And you've come this far. 01:32:48.232 --> 01:32:49.352 You're not a horse person. 01:32:49.352 --> 01:32:51.992 You think, well, I wasn't gonna listen to this one, but, well, I've kind of 01:32:52.072 --> 01:32:53.452 well, this is all kind of interesting. 01:32:53.592 --> 01:32:57.908 Don't think that you need to necessarily be part of the subculture of people that 01:32:57.908 --> 01:32:59.748 actually ride horses in order to do this. 01:32:59.748 --> 01:33:03.828 But what you do need to do is is reach out to somebody like Linda who knows how 01:33:03.828 --> 01:33:06.232 to intercede Between you and the horse. 01:33:06.322 --> 01:33:12.022 So that, obviously, you're kept physically safe, but you can then access this. 01:33:13.438 --> 01:33:15.057 The word that comes up from his paradoxical. 01:33:15.277 --> 01:33:19.377 We talked about miraculous, but also the fact that you have to go against 01:33:19.438 --> 01:33:22.702 your own instincts and the horse has to somehow I'll go against their instincts. 01:33:22.702 --> 01:33:26.542 And then there's this paradoxical miracle that happens where we can 01:33:26.542 --> 01:33:29.922 meet in the middle and actually do things together as awesome human. 01:33:31.418 --> 01:33:36.007 In your in the Dalvik quiz, you talk about Pegasus, which is the sort of 01:33:36.007 --> 01:33:40.312 ultimate miracle horse, the winged horse, Which is if if that's not a 01:33:40.312 --> 01:33:45.352 metaphor for the ultimate of what is possible, you know, what isn't. 01:33:45.352 --> 01:33:50.317 You know, Pegasus kinda gets everything right, Even when Zeus 01:33:50.317 --> 01:33:54.267 sends the GAD flight to sting him and he dumps Bellerophon who's riding 01:33:54.267 --> 01:33:58.272 him, he it's it's it's Perseus Goes to the gods and gets a nice home. 01:33:58.272 --> 01:34:00.372 It's Bellerophon who falls into the ocean. 01:34:00.592 --> 01:34:08.928 But you talk about Pegasus being born from Medusa's head, which is something 01:34:08.928 --> 01:34:10.688 I've noticed before in mythology. 01:34:10.688 --> 01:34:16.313 Again, a rather paradoxical thing that Medusa, who is a Gorgon, who is 01:34:16.533 --> 01:34:21.893 regarded as the or presented as the sort of destructive element of the 01:34:21.893 --> 01:34:29.637 feminine, gives birth upon her death from the hero Perseus, if I'm remembering 01:34:29.637 --> 01:34:34.483 it correct, to The miracle horse. 01:34:35.583 --> 01:34:38.883 Paradoxically, she gives birth to this miracle male horse. 01:34:40.028 --> 01:34:42.768 Pegasus, what's going on in that motif, do you think? 01:34:44.268 --> 01:34:44.768 What? 01:34:44.988 --> 01:34:47.968 Linda Kohanov: Well, there's a lot of stuff going on there because, also, 01:34:49.603 --> 01:34:54.163 The reason the reason she was sort of, quote, unquote, pregnant to begin with 01:34:54.163 --> 01:34:56.138 is She was a really beautiful woman. 01:34:56.278 --> 01:35:01.158 And Poseidon, who who in Greek mythology created the horse, he he created the 01:35:01.158 --> 01:35:04.643 horse to impress another goddess, Demeter, but that's a whole other story. 01:35:05.133 --> 01:35:11.297 So Poseidon seduces Medusa And when she's beautiful and then Medusa, 01:35:11.757 --> 01:35:15.118 at a certain point, tells everybody that she declares that she's the most 01:35:15.118 --> 01:35:16.878 beautiful woman even among goddesses. 01:35:16.878 --> 01:35:20.513 And then I think it's Venus that gets pissed off and turns her into the Gorgon. 01:35:20.513 --> 01:35:22.272 So that's part of what happened there. 01:35:22.272 --> 01:35:22.593 Yeah. 01:35:22.593 --> 01:35:23.973 The unfair basically. 01:35:24.113 --> 01:35:24.613 Yeah. 01:35:25.598 --> 01:35:26.098 Right. 01:35:26.158 --> 01:35:26.658 Right. 01:35:26.718 --> 01:35:30.928 And so, so what you have is a manifestation of of feminine wisdom 01:35:30.928 --> 01:35:35.233 in its darkest, most disturbing form, but already being, In some sense, 01:35:35.233 --> 01:35:40.273 impregnated by the god of the sea, which is associated with the collective 01:35:40.273 --> 01:35:43.333 unconscious and emotion and all of that. 01:35:43.978 --> 01:35:48.238 And so then when she when her head is sliced off by Perseus, her 01:35:48.238 --> 01:35:51.278 blood drips down to the sea, and I I guess I think it's where it 01:35:51.278 --> 01:35:53.673 touches the See that Pegasus arises. 01:35:54.453 --> 01:36:01.078 And so, um, there's all these themes that are about integration of of Elements, 01:36:01.098 --> 01:36:07.973 you know, the collective unconscious, emotion feminine wisdom, and and Feminine 01:36:07.973 --> 01:36:11.973 wisdom in its darkest, most disturbing form, and all of these things coming 01:36:11.973 --> 01:36:15.918 together at a certain point to give rise to To this kind of redemptive 01:36:16.217 --> 01:36:18.398 transformational figure of pen Pegasus. 01:36:19.097 --> 01:36:24.018 And Pegasus is the white winged horse but he's also a companion to the muses. 01:36:24.238 --> 01:36:29.932 And the muses are those demigoddesses who, are in control 01:36:29.932 --> 01:36:31.551 of different aspects of the arts. 01:36:31.551 --> 01:36:36.138 There's a there's a muse for music and a muse for poetry and a muse for novel 01:36:36.138 --> 01:36:38.028 writing, probably, and a muse for dance. 01:36:38.347 --> 01:36:42.947 And so Pegasus often flies up to Mount Helicon, which 01:36:42.947 --> 01:36:44.227 is the mountain of the Muses. 01:36:44.227 --> 01:36:47.812 And he hangs out with the Muses a lot When he's not carrying heroes 01:36:47.812 --> 01:36:49.272 around for various purposes. 01:36:49.972 --> 01:36:54.417 And there's this fascinating myth that's lesser known about Pegasus Is 01:36:54.417 --> 01:37:00.497 that up on Mount Helicon, he actually stomps his hoof really hard on the 01:37:00.497 --> 01:37:02.997 ground, and this earthquake ensues. 01:37:03.472 --> 01:37:08.352 And as the earth opens up, there's this spring of water that comes out of the 01:37:08.352 --> 01:37:12.327 center of the mountain of the Muses, And that thereafter is known as the 01:37:12.327 --> 01:37:14.827 Hippocrene, which means horse spring. 01:37:15.607 --> 01:37:20.012 And that water, as it flows down the mountain, actually becomes nourishing to 01:37:20.092 --> 01:37:24.992 Poets and musicians so that people would would climb up supposedly mythologically 01:37:25.452 --> 01:37:26.653 to the mountain of the muses. 01:37:26.653 --> 01:37:30.107 And if they were having trouble with staring at the blank page, You 01:37:30.107 --> 01:37:32.508 would go up and you would sit next to the Hippocrene and drink this 01:37:32.508 --> 01:37:35.567 water, and then you would be filled with this incredible inspiration. 01:37:36.427 --> 01:37:41.772 So Pegasus is Associated with a lot of paradoxes and bringing them together, but 01:37:41.772 --> 01:37:49.707 also associated with Making creativity and inspiration available to humans. 01:37:50.327 --> 01:37:53.528 And I've noticed that that is what happens a lot when people 01:37:53.528 --> 01:37:55.067 start interacting with horses. 01:37:55.522 --> 01:38:00.722 It's like something in that hard, logical, earthly life with that 01:38:00.722 --> 01:38:03.917 we've been living that's, like, You know, sort of closed over. 01:38:04.217 --> 01:38:07.997 Horses will, like, kinda shake that loose, sometimes in a very gentle way. 01:38:08.057 --> 01:38:11.792 And you feel all of a lot of times, people end up Just accessing 01:38:11.852 --> 01:38:15.692 this and and and having tears, crying and going, I'm not sad. 01:38:15.692 --> 01:38:16.332 And I'm like, no. 01:38:16.332 --> 01:38:19.897 It's like the hypocrine rising up, creating an oasis For 01:38:19.897 --> 01:38:21.357 creativity and new growth. 01:38:21.817 --> 01:38:25.437 And so horses literally have that capacity. 01:38:25.817 --> 01:38:31.063 Living horses have the capacity To open up creativity and authenticity in 01:38:31.063 --> 01:38:33.403 people and truly change their lives. 01:38:34.023 --> 01:38:36.958 Rupert Isaacson: I would agree that, You know, I think any of us who are 01:38:36.958 --> 01:38:42.097 equestrians have had more we're lucky people because we've we've we've had 01:38:42.478 --> 01:38:46.982 access to more ecstasy, Moments of ecstasy, whether it's oxytocin moving 01:38:46.982 --> 01:38:49.862 through our bodies because our hips are rocking, whether it's because 01:38:49.862 --> 01:38:53.382 it's you know, that is mixed with adrenaline, you know, and a certain 01:38:53.382 --> 01:38:56.987 amount of Low level cortisol as we go into a fence, and then we have this 01:38:57.127 --> 01:38:58.807 explosion of energy underneath us. 01:38:58.807 --> 01:39:03.467 And one of the things I I I feel is that the horses lend us power. 01:39:04.152 --> 01:39:08.952 And I think a lot of people quite rightly outside of the equestrian world 01:39:08.952 --> 01:39:14.138 and a bit within, Quite accurately regard a lot of people who are 01:39:14.138 --> 01:39:20.133 equestrians as kinda assholes because, unfortunately, Horses make us superhuman. 01:39:20.133 --> 01:39:20.453 Right? 01:39:20.453 --> 01:39:22.293 They lend us their power. 01:39:22.293 --> 01:39:25.093 We're bigger, faster, stronger, more beautiful, all of these 01:39:25.093 --> 01:39:26.133 things until we get off. 01:39:26.133 --> 01:39:28.148 And then, of course, we're just little monkeys again. 01:39:28.658 --> 01:39:32.898 But what we can forget is that the horse has lent us this power. 01:39:32.898 --> 01:39:34.098 It's not power that we own. 01:39:34.098 --> 01:39:36.518 It's it's we might be able to steward it. 01:39:36.578 --> 01:39:39.573 We might be Gifted it, but it's not ours. 01:39:39.983 --> 01:39:41.503 But we can behave like it is. 01:39:41.503 --> 01:39:46.248 And, of course, with the arrival of interesting with, you know, 01:39:46.248 --> 01:39:51.398 equestrianism in its classical form into Europe, which happened, you know, 01:39:51.398 --> 01:39:54.982 somewhere in the bronze age came in Through, you know, Anatolia and the 01:39:54.982 --> 01:39:56.443 Fertile Crescent in Mesopotamia. 01:39:56.823 --> 01:39:59.482 It had come down from the areas to the north of that. 01:39:59.623 --> 01:40:03.058 It the Mediterranean at that time was not really a horse culture, So, you 01:40:03.058 --> 01:40:07.608 know, in terms of like, it had been up in in those early horse areas. 01:40:07.988 --> 01:40:11.853 So, we weren't horse tribes Growing up in yurts, you know, with a lot of horses 01:40:11.853 --> 01:40:14.193 around us, so it had to be imported. 01:40:14.653 --> 01:40:16.893 And the Greeks were the first people to really import it. 01:40:16.893 --> 01:40:19.473 When you import something, of course, it becomes, you know, expensive, 01:40:20.078 --> 01:40:21.938 And that means it's for the elite. 01:40:22.078 --> 01:40:28.013 And we immediately have this association of the mounted man in particular As 01:40:28.013 --> 01:40:31.053 warrior elite because, of course, that came in with these Greek city 01:40:31.053 --> 01:40:32.253 states, you know, around that time. 01:40:32.253 --> 01:40:34.388 It's deep in our consciousness, but it goes back before. 01:40:34.388 --> 01:40:37.428 But there's this interesting thing about what it can bring 01:40:37.428 --> 01:40:42.868 out in us transformationally, paradox between the worlds, as you 01:40:42.868 --> 01:40:44.248 said, riding between the worlds. 01:40:44.373 --> 01:40:49.353 As you you're probably aware of the Norse myth where the gods of Asgard 01:40:49.573 --> 01:40:52.049 decide they need a wall around Asgard. 01:40:52.428 --> 01:40:56.188 And they're deciding, you know, it's gonna cost too much and and who can do this. 01:40:56.188 --> 01:40:59.228 Well, I don't know if you can do this with giants, but the giants are our enemies. 01:40:59.228 --> 01:41:00.368 How are we gonna do this? 01:41:01.973 --> 01:41:05.573 So, anyway, word goes out and someone shows up. 01:41:05.573 --> 01:41:09.013 He's a giant in disguise with a this big stallion saying, I can 01:41:09.013 --> 01:41:12.408 build you this wall In just one summer with the help of my horse. 01:41:13.028 --> 01:41:18.718 And the gods agree, and then they get a bit worried that he looks 01:41:18.718 --> 01:41:21.523 like he's Close to finishing because then we're gonna have to pay him. 01:41:21.743 --> 01:41:26.868 And Loki says, well, let's make sure we the, you know, the shapeshifter God. 01:41:26.868 --> 01:41:29.049 Let's make sure that we mess him up a bit. 01:41:29.268 --> 01:41:34.523 So he comes up with the idea of turning himself into a mare. 01:41:35.083 --> 01:41:40.123 And so he he changes across the sexes, and he lures the stallion away into 01:41:40.123 --> 01:41:45.288 the woods and Makes a stallion mate with him, which, of course, makes the 01:41:45.668 --> 01:41:47.448 giant in disguise miss the deadline. 01:41:47.828 --> 01:41:51.908 So the giants the the the gods get their war mostly built for 01:41:51.908 --> 01:41:53.674 free, Can finish it themselves. 01:41:53.733 --> 01:41:57.093 They've outwitted the the the the the giant. 01:41:57.093 --> 01:42:00.953 But, of course, Loki goes off and gives birth to an eight legged horse 01:42:01.008 --> 01:42:03.348 which becomes Odin's Mount Sleipnir. 01:42:04.048 --> 01:42:07.049 And, of course, Thor realizes what Loki's done. 01:42:07.049 --> 01:42:11.933 You had sex with the horse, And teases him and taunts him and that and Loki 01:42:11.933 --> 01:42:13.553 sort of never forgives him for that. 01:42:14.253 --> 01:42:19.818 What I that's an interesting historic, Mythological paradox for me there. 01:42:20.358 --> 01:42:25.143 Do you see a relation between that and the this integration of Female 01:42:25.143 --> 01:42:31.209 to male energy that's going on with Poseidon and Medusa with Pegasus. 01:42:31.829 --> 01:42:37.689 Do horses allow those of us who are feminine to access the masculine, 01:42:37.829 --> 01:42:41.854 and they do allow those of us who are masculine To access the feminine. 01:42:42.234 --> 01:42:44.014 Do they do this for us, do you think? 01:42:46.074 --> 01:42:48.059 Linda Kohanov: They absolutely do that. 01:42:48.419 --> 01:42:53.639 And so I I think that's why I called my first book The Tao of Equis because 01:42:53.859 --> 01:42:59.874 because They seem to be natural Taoists, and they seem to teach us 01:43:00.574 --> 01:43:05.259 things that if you if you go to read the Sound paradoxical, but when you're 01:43:05.259 --> 01:43:09.259 with horses, a lot of the things that sound paradoxical in the are actually 01:43:09.259 --> 01:43:12.959 things that you engage simultaneously in your interactions with horses. 01:43:13.554 --> 01:43:17.954 But another thing that Laozi, whether he was an actual sage or a group 01:43:17.954 --> 01:43:19.574 of sages, they're not really sure. 01:43:19.824 --> 01:43:23.769 Laozi Ask us to know the yang, but keep to the yin. 01:43:23.769 --> 01:43:25.869 Know the masculine, but keep to the feminine. 01:43:26.409 --> 01:43:29.049 And whether you're a man or a woman, you have to be able 01:43:29.049 --> 01:43:30.509 to do that to be with horses. 01:43:30.954 --> 01:43:35.274 You have to know the yang, the masculine active principle, the power principle. 01:43:35.274 --> 01:43:38.019 You have to know how to be powerful to be in their presence. 01:43:38.419 --> 01:43:42.039 But for the most part, you need to keep to the yin, the feminine, 01:43:42.739 --> 01:43:45.879 feeling, connection, mutual support. 01:43:46.179 --> 01:43:51.034 And So when you're with horses, you actually learn how to do that. 01:43:51.034 --> 01:43:54.794 Men learn how to access the yin, and women learn how to access the 01:43:54.794 --> 01:43:59.458 yang and to keep those two In a kind of dynamic balance, of course you 01:43:59.458 --> 01:44:00.898 know, according to what's needed. 01:44:00.898 --> 01:44:03.878 So that's that's really why I called my book The Tao of Equals. 01:44:06.473 --> 01:44:11.933 Rupert Isaacson: We've talked about a horse that is born from a female 01:44:13.033 --> 01:44:20.858 male union, I e Perseus, albeit a bit unfair for poor old Medusa 01:44:20.858 --> 01:44:26.423 who, you know, as you say, Was, you know, simply targeted by Poseidon. 01:44:27.603 --> 01:44:33.668 And then we have some a horse that comes, Ode becomes Odin's horse that 01:44:33.668 --> 01:44:39.108 comes from someone changing their gender at least, you know, for enough 01:44:39.108 --> 01:44:42.483 time That they can affect that change. 01:44:43.023 --> 01:44:45.763 Let's talk about horses that come completely from the feminine. 01:44:46.543 --> 01:44:50.258 Epona, The Celtic goddess of the horse. 01:44:50.558 --> 01:44:55.033 The Romans arrive in Gaul, we which is now France. 01:44:55.193 --> 01:44:59.903 We know that the Romans in the republican era before they were Christianized, 01:45:00.283 --> 01:45:04.688 had a policy Rather like the Ottomans did, rather like the Persians did, 01:45:04.748 --> 01:45:07.548 of when they conquered people, they would honor the local gods. 01:45:07.548 --> 01:45:13.133 They would never force people to, Adhere to their religions with the 01:45:13.133 --> 01:45:16.003 occasional exception of you have to honor the emperors of god from time 01:45:16.003 --> 01:45:17.703 to time as a way of honoring Rome. 01:45:17.763 --> 01:45:22.070 But But as long as you did that and paid your taxes, you know, you can go on. 01:45:22.070 --> 01:45:26.303 But the the the Romans, of course, were famous for bringing cults From from their 01:45:26.303 --> 01:45:31.263 conquered countries into their into their own culture very successfully, like the 01:45:31.263 --> 01:45:36.358 culture of Mithras Among officers in the military which came from Persia. 01:45:36.358 --> 01:45:41.073 We we had you know, the cult of Isis was all over the Roman Empire. 01:45:41.073 --> 01:45:42.292 The cult of Epona. 01:45:42.992 --> 01:45:44.693 They arrive in Gaul. 01:45:44.832 --> 01:45:46.292 They smash it to pieces. 01:45:46.352 --> 01:45:52.678 They don't behave well in Gaul at all, And yet they absolutely embrace 01:45:53.297 --> 01:45:55.138 this Celtic goddess of the horse. 01:45:55.138 --> 01:45:56.517 What's going on with Epona? 01:45:59.533 --> 01:46:00.412 Well, there's 01:46:00.412 --> 01:46:03.712 Linda Kohanov: a whole book now written about the goddess Epona 01:46:03.882 --> 01:46:06.467 by a man from The UK, I guess. 01:46:06.527 --> 01:46:06.767 Mhmm. 01:46:06.767 --> 01:46:08.127 I I just got it in. 01:46:08.127 --> 01:46:13.412 But from the research that I had done previously the goddess Epona Well, a 01:46:13.412 --> 01:46:16.772 lot of these goddesses or gods that are associated with horses have the 01:46:16.772 --> 01:46:21.272 capacity to change from horse form to human form back and forth at will. 01:46:21.618 --> 01:46:25.937 So sometimes you see the goddess Epona as a woman, and she's sitting 01:46:25.937 --> 01:46:28.997 usually side sideways on a mare. 01:46:29.182 --> 01:46:32.243 And there's usually a foal and some of the dog with her. 01:46:32.782 --> 01:46:39.747 And so I'm seeing this As, you know, the capacity this is the the ultimate natural 01:46:39.747 --> 01:46:45.083 horsemanship idea that this goddess is sitting On this mare that has a foal 01:46:45.083 --> 01:46:49.343 at her side in this really vulnerable position, this very peaceful position, 01:46:49.803 --> 01:46:51.938 sometimes with a small dog near them. 01:46:52.257 --> 01:46:55.938 And for me, it it really is about integrating the predatory and non 01:46:55.938 --> 01:47:00.577 predatory power through a feminine archetype, a feminine form of wisdom. 01:47:00.577 --> 01:47:05.452 Because The horse is, you know, not a predator. 01:47:05.832 --> 01:47:11.778 So being an herbivore and And even though it's very powerful, it has a 01:47:11.778 --> 01:47:13.937 lot in common with feminine wisdom. 01:47:13.937 --> 01:47:18.662 More sensitive, more feeling oriented, very much Relationship oriented. 01:47:19.122 --> 01:47:20.482 I mean, horses are nomadic. 01:47:20.482 --> 01:47:21.782 They don't fight over territory. 01:47:21.842 --> 01:47:24.902 Relationship is more important than territory. 01:47:25.042 --> 01:47:29.557 So There's a lot of feminine wisdom expressed in the horse itself. 01:47:30.047 --> 01:47:35.082 And then sometimes The goddess Epona turns into a horse, and 01:47:35.082 --> 01:47:37.082 she can turn into a white mare. 01:47:37.082 --> 01:47:42.537 And a lot of these, Cults associated with Epona talk about how they would 01:47:42.677 --> 01:47:46.573 actually get take a white mare and ask this mare questions, questions, 01:47:46.573 --> 01:47:50.033 and the horse would answer yes or no to all kinds of questions. 01:47:50.172 --> 01:47:52.432 And I have a theory about why that's possible. 01:47:53.707 --> 01:47:59.652 But in any case the you know, as a white mare, she's a benevolent force, 01:47:59.892 --> 01:48:05.122 But if you ignore your true feelings and motivations too long she will 01:48:05.122 --> 01:48:09.847 sometimes show up in your dreams as This black mare named Melanipe. 01:48:11.187 --> 01:48:17.352 And in that form, she's, like, torturing you to sort of give up your, You know, 01:48:17.352 --> 01:48:23.932 stubborn adherence to things that that are not true or that are overly egotistical. 01:48:24.047 --> 01:48:27.807 So in some sense, she can turn into what would be known as a nightmare to come 01:48:27.807 --> 01:48:32.257 and torture you and make you make you out of your Complacency in your egotism. 01:48:32.717 --> 01:48:35.197 So there's all kinds of interesting aspects to opponent. 01:48:35.197 --> 01:48:39.062 But I think if somebody's really interested in this to look for for 01:48:39.062 --> 01:48:40.502 the book, and I don't have it handy. 01:48:40.502 --> 01:48:41.242 It's downstairs. 01:48:41.572 --> 01:48:42.532 I just got it. 01:48:42.532 --> 01:48:47.347 And wildly enough the reason why I ended up Coming to my attention is that somebody 01:48:47.347 --> 01:48:52.007 read the book and told me that I was cited in there as a modern priestess of Epona. 01:48:52.947 --> 01:48:54.983 And I'm like, Wow. 01:48:55.042 --> 01:48:58.882 That's a that's a wild thing to say, particularly since 01:48:58.882 --> 01:49:00.722 this author never contacted me. 01:49:00.722 --> 01:49:01.523 So, Is this, 01:49:01.523 --> 01:49:04.483 Rupert Isaacson: By Mackenzie Cook, Epona, Hidden Goddess of 01:49:04.483 --> 01:49:06.003 the Celts by Mackenzie Cook? 01:49:06.003 --> 01:49:06.242 That's 01:49:06.242 --> 01:49:06.483 Linda Kohanov: it. 01:49:06.483 --> 01:49:06.802 That's it. 01:49:06.802 --> 01:49:07.123 Okay. 01:49:07.123 --> 01:49:07.603 Right. 01:49:07.603 --> 01:49:08.423 That's it. 01:49:09.018 --> 01:49:13.228 And so, you know, I I do feel at times like I have been possessed 01:49:13.368 --> 01:49:15.068 by these glowing archetypes. 01:49:16.213 --> 01:49:18.313 There's also the mare headed goddess Demeter. 01:49:18.533 --> 01:49:22.423 There's a whole story about her turning into the mare headed goddess. 01:49:22.483 --> 01:49:27.978 And I I talk about the mare headed goddess as also an a myth associated 01:49:28.038 --> 01:49:33.383 with transformation, particularly from trauma, Particularly from rape. 01:49:33.683 --> 01:49:37.763 And you can access this essay about the mare headed goddess in 01:49:37.763 --> 01:49:41.008 my book, Way of the Horse, Equine Archetypes for Self Discovery. 01:49:41.008 --> 01:49:42.688 It's a book of wisdom cards. 01:49:42.688 --> 01:49:45.508 It's a deck of wisdom cards with significant essays. 01:49:45.963 --> 01:49:49.163 So if you look in that book, I think it's essay number thirty five or 01:49:49.163 --> 01:49:50.863 something on The Marehead a Goddess. 01:49:51.483 --> 01:49:55.818 And she's a transformational figure for how transform trauma into strength. 01:49:56.438 --> 01:50:01.078 And she gives birth to twins as a result of this rape situation she had. 01:50:01.078 --> 01:50:03.178 So there's this twin element there again. 01:50:03.533 --> 01:50:07.933 But there were times where I felt like the goddess Epona or the mare 01:50:07.933 --> 01:50:11.533 headed goddess, like, ride me hard and possess me and make me give up 01:50:11.533 --> 01:50:13.608 things and do things and write Things. 01:50:13.608 --> 01:50:15.688 And they ride me hard and put me away wet. 01:50:15.688 --> 01:50:16.088 You know? 01:50:16.088 --> 01:50:20.888 It's like, you know, please just may I now have a chance to live my life? 01:50:20.888 --> 01:50:21.628 You know? 01:50:21.933 --> 01:50:23.773 So, I thought cathartic. 01:50:25.513 --> 01:50:25.673 Yeah. 01:50:25.673 --> 01:50:32.868 Actually, like, cathartic Like, these forces coming in, I I I really feel 01:50:32.868 --> 01:50:42.733 like these goddesses are as archetypes, they're like nonmaterial Forms matrixes 01:50:43.273 --> 01:50:48.468 of wisdom that in that can engage us Through their stories and myths about 01:50:48.468 --> 01:50:52.388 them, but, also, you can really feel sometimes, like, that matrix of wisdom 01:50:52.388 --> 01:50:56.633 is coming in and act you can have a direct feeling of being engaged by it. 01:50:56.633 --> 01:51:00.873 And even I don't ever feel, like, possessed in the sense of losing my 01:51:00.873 --> 01:51:05.508 own personal memories, But I have felt in the sense of feeling ridden by them 01:51:05.508 --> 01:51:08.308 in a certain direction that I didn't really feel like going in right now, 01:51:08.308 --> 01:51:10.088 that I didn't consider to be practical. 01:51:10.463 --> 01:51:13.663 And they wouldn't leave me alone until I actually went in that direction. 01:51:13.663 --> 01:51:17.054 And then after I do whatever it is they want then they kinda 01:51:17.054 --> 01:51:19.270 leave me alone for for a while. 01:51:19.330 --> 01:51:23.385 And I wanna I didn't think I was qualified to write a book, Whatever 01:51:23.385 --> 01:51:25.245 it was going to be about horses. 01:51:25.785 --> 01:51:30.345 But I just kept being, like, possessed and having this feeling 01:51:30.345 --> 01:51:31.620 of write the Write the book. 01:51:31.620 --> 01:51:32.420 Write the story. 01:51:32.420 --> 01:51:33.060 Write the story. 01:51:33.110 --> 01:51:39.765 And I think maybe these matrixes of wisdom, these mythic Matrix of wisdom 01:51:39.765 --> 01:51:45.265 from the other world are looking for people all the time who might be receptive 01:51:45.391 --> 01:51:48.770 Just to a piece of wisdom they want to bring into the modern world again. 01:51:49.150 --> 01:51:53.340 And they some people are receptive but they don't have the skills to 01:51:53.340 --> 01:51:57.885 pull it off, And some people aren't receptive and and turn it down. 01:51:58.265 --> 01:52:02.985 And for me, I think the thing that happened that made it possible to be 01:52:02.985 --> 01:52:08.190 possessed by these Equine archetypes of wisdom is that I had the ability 01:52:08.330 --> 01:52:12.010 to write about things that are not normally talked about because I had 01:52:12.010 --> 01:52:15.695 been a music critic Where I had to write about things that are beyond words. 01:52:15.695 --> 01:52:21.296 And so, um, and I was also completely overtaken by the 01:52:21.296 --> 01:52:22.995 magic and the mystery of horses. 01:52:23.510 --> 01:52:28.710 And so I think there was a confluence of a calling that a lot of people received 01:52:28.710 --> 01:52:33.095 and just my capacity to be able to pull off A certain level of getting this wisdom 01:52:33.095 --> 01:52:33.595 Rupert Isaacson: out. 01:52:33.975 --> 01:52:38.635 What when did you first become aware of a certain feeling of possession in this way? 01:52:40.100 --> 01:52:42.200 Linda Kohanov: I did talk about it in the Dow of Aguas. 01:52:42.370 --> 01:52:47.510 I was spending a lot of time with the horses and I was still a music critic 01:52:47.510 --> 01:52:55.135 at the time, and I would just I would just come to life when I went out with 01:52:55.135 --> 01:52:58.915 the horses, and I was going into this depressive state writing about music. 01:52:59.055 --> 01:52:59.375 Okay. 01:52:59.375 --> 01:53:03.550 And, I mean, it was a great career to be a music critic and a Music journalist. 01:53:03.550 --> 01:53:04.830 I got flown all over the world. 01:53:04.830 --> 01:53:06.770 I met all kinds of famous people. 01:53:07.150 --> 01:53:08.430 They were sending me their CDs. 01:53:08.430 --> 01:53:11.150 They were sucking it up to me because they wanted good reviews. 01:53:11.150 --> 01:53:16.165 It's how I met my Steve Roach, who's very well known in the ambient music field. 01:53:16.705 --> 01:53:21.710 And but at a certain point, I I would have to drink an entire pot of 01:53:21.710 --> 01:53:23.570 coffee just to write a music review. 01:53:24.510 --> 01:53:30.095 And yet when I went to the barn, I would have endless energy to ride horses 01:53:30.095 --> 01:53:33.695 in hundred degree heat, and I would be filled with all these ideas, and I 01:53:33.695 --> 01:53:35.450 would be writing these endless journals. 01:53:35.930 --> 01:53:39.530 And so at a certain point, I was, like, following that energy more 01:53:39.530 --> 01:53:41.450 and more because it made no sense. 01:53:41.450 --> 01:53:42.970 I got my first horse in my thirties. 01:53:42.970 --> 01:53:46.795 It didn't make sense for me to become Professional rider or think about going 01:53:46.795 --> 01:53:48.735 to the Olympics or something like that. 01:53:49.595 --> 01:53:52.655 And so I just started having all these adventures. 01:53:52.795 --> 01:53:56.320 And then I started having these where I felt like I was haunted. 01:53:56.650 --> 01:54:01.835 And it would just be it would not only be a feeling of Something else 01:54:01.895 --> 01:54:06.235 surrounding me, some other kind of energy surrounding me and even 01:54:06.775 --> 01:54:08.795 disrupting my coordination at times. 01:54:09.420 --> 01:54:13.101 But I would even have horses that would suddenly spook when I 01:54:13.101 --> 01:54:16.435 would feel this energy and there would be nothing Happening in the 01:54:16.435 --> 01:54:19.335 environment, and I could just be on the ground hanging out with them. 01:54:19.635 --> 01:54:23.475 So I ended up going to this intuitive counselor, and I and I 01:54:23.475 --> 01:54:25.015 do talk about this in the book. 01:54:25.840 --> 01:54:30.640 Her name is Patricia Hirsch, and she had a PhD in psychology, but 01:54:30.640 --> 01:54:34.805 she had also studied shamanism, particularly with Hawaiian Shamans, 01:54:35.105 --> 01:54:37.445 Hawaiian medicine women in particular. 01:54:38.305 --> 01:54:44.280 And so I just thought, you know, Either either she's gonna put me on 01:54:44.280 --> 01:54:48.120 medication or check me into a mental ward or whatever, but I'm just gonna 01:54:48.120 --> 01:54:51.435 go in and see what's going on, you because it was driving me crazy. 01:54:51.435 --> 01:54:52.715 It was keeping me up at night. 01:54:52.715 --> 01:54:55.295 I was I was becoming a nervous wreck. 01:54:55.675 --> 01:55:02.370 And, So I was just gonna be coy about this for a few sessions, but just 01:55:02.370 --> 01:55:04.070 something about the way she was. 01:55:04.449 --> 01:55:07.885 I just blurted out, You know, I'm here because I seem to be haunted. 01:55:08.425 --> 01:55:10.045 And she goes, oh, okay. 01:55:10.105 --> 01:55:11.645 Well, let's take a look at that. 01:55:11.865 --> 01:55:12.425 You know? 01:55:12.425 --> 01:55:16.720 And I said, I'm not really sure whether this thing is a Product of my imagination. 01:55:17.020 --> 01:55:20.140 Am I going crazy, or is it an external force? 01:55:20.140 --> 01:55:21.260 Am I really being haunted? 01:55:21.260 --> 01:55:24.835 And if I am, is it Is it benevolent or mannevolent? 01:55:25.055 --> 01:55:26.435 I just really don't know. 01:55:26.655 --> 01:55:27.635 And she said, yes. 01:55:27.935 --> 01:55:30.255 You know, these are very serious concerns. 01:55:30.255 --> 01:55:33.720 You know, I once let a troubling entity in my life, And and it's more 01:55:33.720 --> 01:55:35.080 trouble than you'd ever wanna have. 01:55:35.080 --> 01:55:38.780 I mean, she just talked so normally about this experience. 01:55:39.640 --> 01:55:45.095 And so Going through this experience, she helped me access my own intuition 01:55:45.155 --> 01:55:46.775 and connection to this force. 01:55:46.915 --> 01:55:50.410 And at first, we were like, Is this a human? 01:55:51.030 --> 01:55:55.970 Is this it seemed to be awakened by and oriented toward the horses. 01:55:55.970 --> 01:55:57.765 So I'm like, is this You know? 01:55:57.765 --> 01:56:02.725 And I I have a background from Ukraine, and I have, you know, probably even 01:56:02.725 --> 01:56:04.405 some Mongolian blood in me too. 01:56:04.405 --> 01:56:08.350 So maybe I have, You know, ancestors that were in the early horse 01:56:08.350 --> 01:56:10.030 cultures in that region, possibly. 01:56:10.190 --> 01:56:10.590 Likely. 01:56:10.590 --> 01:56:11.970 I'm like, is this an ancestor? 01:56:12.805 --> 01:56:13.385 You know? 01:56:13.525 --> 01:56:18.025 But what what we as we kept going deeper and deeper and deeper into it, we realized 01:56:18.245 --> 01:56:23.750 that it was that complex of Horse wisdom that I now call the horse ancestors. 01:56:24.850 --> 01:56:28.710 And so it was it was like the collective wisdom of the horses. 01:56:30.595 --> 01:56:34.835 And and I learned how to access it, and I learned how to use it in different 01:56:34.835 --> 01:56:36.355 ways and to teach it to others. 01:56:36.355 --> 01:56:39.175 And I also learned how to use it even for problem solving. 01:56:39.555 --> 01:56:43.600 So it can even act as, like, a translation program between the 01:56:43.600 --> 01:56:46.480 horse mind and the human mind if you access the horse ancestors. 01:56:46.480 --> 01:56:51.205 So These are some things that I teach in workshops and some things I talk about in 01:56:51.205 --> 01:56:58.300 my books, but I always put it in in the perspective of the fact that it's It's 01:57:00.440 --> 01:57:06.685 exemplary of how horses are so that that's It's an embodied spirituality so that 01:57:06.685 --> 01:57:12.370 you must be fully present and capable of being in this world and, at the same I'm 01:57:12.370 --> 01:57:14.390 accessing these other forms of wisdom. 01:57:15.410 --> 01:57:19.090 Over time, I've seen that horses I can't tell whether they're really 01:57:19.090 --> 01:57:22.655 good at moving back and Fourth between these twin forms of consciousness, 01:57:23.515 --> 01:57:28.539 the fully present in this world and spiritual sources, let's say, Or if 01:57:28.539 --> 01:57:32.060 they are in both simultaneous tell. 01:57:32.060 --> 01:57:36.480 But either way, they are helping us to learn how to do that too. 01:57:37.605 --> 01:57:37.765 Yeah. 01:57:37.765 --> 01:57:38.325 I would 01:57:38.325 --> 01:57:39.845 Rupert Isaacson: I would I I agree. 01:57:39.845 --> 01:57:43.945 I think I find that when one is around horses in any way, 01:57:44.620 --> 01:57:46.140 Riding with them, doing it. 01:57:46.140 --> 01:57:48.140 What is one doing but solving problems? 01:57:48.140 --> 01:57:51.980 You know, when you're going across when you're simply balancing yourself on 01:57:51.980 --> 01:57:54.275 on the horse is pro solving a problem. 01:57:54.415 --> 01:57:56.835 Getting across country on a horse is solving a problem. 01:57:56.935 --> 01:58:01.015 Figuring out how to get the poo through the mud onto the wheelbarrow so that 01:58:01.015 --> 01:58:04.730 the Wilburra doesn't tip and tip all the poo into the mud and get it up onto 01:58:04.730 --> 01:58:06.370 the top of the muck keep and do that. 01:58:06.370 --> 01:58:07.090 That's a problem. 01:58:07.090 --> 01:58:17.596 And and one is constantly Faced with these interesting but entirely absorbing 01:58:18.241 --> 01:58:22.710 Because if you don't solve this problem, you can't get to the next thing of where 01:58:22.710 --> 01:58:23.910 you're trying to get to with the horse. 01:58:23.910 --> 01:58:25.610 As you say, horses carry us. 01:58:26.255 --> 01:58:28.015 I want to bring you back to something you said. 01:58:28.015 --> 01:58:33.075 You you said when when people were consulting these white mayors in 01:58:33.075 --> 01:58:36.695 in the Gaulish Celtic shrines. 01:58:39.070 --> 01:58:42.050 And the they would ask the mare almost like an oracle. 01:58:42.750 --> 01:58:47.726 You said you had some theories about how they might have interpreted What the horse 01:58:47.726 --> 01:58:50.659 did or didn't do for getting their answer. 01:58:50.659 --> 01:58:53.166 What tell tell tell me your theory there. 01:58:53.166 --> 01:58:55.186 What what do you feel was going on? 01:58:56.970 --> 01:58:57.470 Well, 01:58:57.850 --> 01:58:59.870 Linda Kohanov: it actually doesn't take that long to explain. 01:59:00.170 --> 01:59:02.190 So here's the thing. 01:59:02.331 --> 01:59:07.005 As I mentioned earlier That there's been studies that you can read about in the 01:59:07.005 --> 01:59:12.240 book Social Intelligence by Daniel Goleman that show that when you're Suppressing an 01:59:12.240 --> 01:59:17.780 emotion, and I would say also a thought or a perspective or a desire or whatever. 01:59:17.921 --> 01:59:23.315 When you suppress something like that, it Takes extra energy to hold it down, and 01:59:23.315 --> 01:59:25.315 it causes your blood pressure to rise. 01:59:25.315 --> 01:59:29.400 And it all causes the blood pressure of others interacting with you to rise also. 01:59:29.480 --> 01:59:30.380 That's been proven. 01:59:30.600 --> 01:59:33.180 This happens to people unconsciously all day long. 01:59:33.560 --> 01:59:37.135 When you make something that's unconscious conscious, Whether it's an 01:59:37.135 --> 01:59:38.975 emotion that you're finally saying, yes. 01:59:38.975 --> 01:59:43.055 I actually am afraid, or if you're saying, I actually don't 01:59:43.055 --> 01:59:44.255 want to become an attorney. 01:59:44.255 --> 01:59:45.295 I'd rather be an artist. 01:59:45.295 --> 01:59:49.490 Whatever it is, Whenever you bring up the thing that's been suppressed, 01:59:49.490 --> 01:59:53.530 it causes your blood pressure to drop even before you've Even 01:59:53.530 --> 01:59:55.710 before you solved it in any way. 01:59:56.090 --> 01:59:56.750 You know? 01:59:56.890 --> 02:00:00.970 That's why when the young lady who was crying, the horse walked away. 02:00:00.970 --> 02:00:05.415 And when she was Accessing the anger underneath it, the horse came back to 02:00:05.415 --> 02:00:07.675 her and surrounded her and comforted her. 02:00:08.005 --> 02:00:10.245 How did the horse tell the difference between those two? 02:00:10.245 --> 02:00:13.210 And I think it has to do with this nervous System activation. 02:00:13.670 --> 02:00:16.890 When you're suppressing something causes your blood pressure to rise. 02:00:16.890 --> 02:00:20.265 When you access it consciously, your blood pressure drops, And it's 02:00:20.265 --> 02:00:23.945 gonna drop in the horse too, and the horse will often show that. 02:00:23.945 --> 02:00:24.665 I see this. 02:00:24.665 --> 02:00:28.825 You've seen it, where when a person accesses an authentic feeling or 02:00:28.825 --> 02:00:33.660 thought Or calling, the horse will lower their head and lick and chew and sigh. 02:00:33.880 --> 02:00:34.120 Mhmm. 02:00:34.120 --> 02:00:35.480 I see it all the time. 02:00:35.480 --> 02:00:37.720 So I think that's what was going on Okay. 02:00:37.880 --> 02:00:41.385 Is that people would come and ask The worst questions about and it 02:00:41.385 --> 02:00:43.065 was always yes or no questions. 02:00:43.065 --> 02:00:45.645 And they would say the horse would indicate through their behavior 02:00:45.945 --> 02:00:47.540 whether it was a yes or a no. 02:00:47.620 --> 02:00:51.160 So I think a no would just be a horse standing there looking stoically, 02:00:51.620 --> 02:00:53.320 you know, or maybe walking away. 02:00:53.460 --> 02:00:56.860 And a yes would be the worst lowering their head and licking and chewing. 02:00:57.000 --> 02:00:57.240 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:00:57.240 --> 02:00:58.140 Maybe yawning. 02:00:58.200 --> 02:00:58.600 Yeah. 02:00:58.600 --> 02:00:59.100 Yeah. 02:00:59.160 --> 02:01:00.380 I I could see that. 02:01:01.335 --> 02:01:03.755 Here's another question back to the idea of paradox. 02:01:03.895 --> 02:01:10.400 So goddess Epona as you say, depicted usually in a peaceful Manna. 02:01:11.820 --> 02:01:19.625 Why would then the goddess Epona get co opted by the Roman military To the 02:01:19.625 --> 02:01:26.441 point that pretty much every cavalry unit where they found Archaeological 02:01:26.660 --> 02:01:29.781 evidence that there was a cavalry barracks in a certain place. 02:01:29.781 --> 02:01:33.700 They always had after after the conquest of Gaul, they always had 02:01:33.700 --> 02:01:40.495 an altar to Epona, And they also would have an altar to the spirits 02:01:40.796 --> 02:01:45.410 of the Of the training ground. 02:01:45.551 --> 02:01:50.270 If you like the we we have this even in American high schools, like school spirit. 02:01:50.270 --> 02:01:53.410 Like, the but they they regard them as actual spirits. 02:01:54.825 --> 02:01:57.946 And right near where I live in Germany, they're actually and up 02:01:57.946 --> 02:01:59.725 on Hadrian's Wall in England too. 02:01:59.785 --> 02:02:04.461 They found round pens From Roman cavalry units where they were, you 02:02:04.461 --> 02:02:08.941 know, training the horses almost always with altars to Epona close by. 02:02:08.941 --> 02:02:11.406 So they've now taken this feminine Thing. 02:02:11.406 --> 02:02:12.445 I guess you're right. 02:02:12.445 --> 02:02:17.986 There's also the the darker feminine, the the black man who might come psychically. 02:02:18.561 --> 02:02:24.901 But then male, and we know that the Roman military was hyper male. 02:02:26.616 --> 02:02:29.676 Energy takes this and co opts it for the use of cavalry. 02:02:30.616 --> 02:02:35.251 And in their universe, they they do it successfully To the point 02:02:35.251 --> 02:02:40.390 that they promote it as a motif, you know, through the regiments. 02:02:42.436 --> 02:02:45.336 What do you think is going on there? 02:02:45.476 --> 02:02:49.971 Again, we're we're talking about paradoxical natures and forming a yin 02:02:49.971 --> 02:02:53.751 and yang, but that's really quite almost quite violent, quite a violent co opting. 02:02:55.361 --> 02:03:01.116 And why would the horse ancestors or the The eponymous spirit, if 02:03:01.116 --> 02:03:05.356 you like, allow that to happen if we believe that there's a certain 02:03:05.356 --> 02:03:08.541 animus In these motifs within yeah. 02:03:08.541 --> 02:03:10.541 What what what's your theory there? 02:03:10.541 --> 02:03:12.001 I'd be interested to know. 02:03:14.061 --> 02:03:14.561 Well, 02:03:15.716 --> 02:03:21.716 Linda Kohanov: The Romans believed in gods and goddesses and would often reach 02:03:21.716 --> 02:03:24.376 out to a certain goddess for protection. 02:03:25.641 --> 02:03:27.661 I think that's pretty much all they were doing. 02:03:29.031 --> 02:03:31.591 You know, protection for not just themselves, but 02:03:31.591 --> 02:03:32.891 protection for their horses. 02:03:33.356 --> 02:03:35.376 She would certainly be protecting the horses. 02:03:35.436 --> 02:03:35.676 Mhmm. 02:03:35.676 --> 02:03:35.996 Mhmm. 02:03:35.996 --> 02:03:41.281 So they would be invoking the goddess for protection for For 02:03:41.281 --> 02:03:42.741 themselves and their horses. 02:03:43.441 --> 02:03:49.766 And the reason why Agadus I from my perspective, I mean, I can't I 02:03:49.766 --> 02:03:54.426 can't really speak for something that complex and spiritually 02:03:54.566 --> 02:03:57.066 oriented and ancient beyond belief. 02:03:57.651 --> 02:04:03.331 But the feeling is is that, you know, you guys are running through your 02:04:03.331 --> 02:04:05.911 adolescent fantasies of of power. 02:04:06.051 --> 02:04:10.036 And If you invoke me and you start to listen to me and you start 02:04:10.036 --> 02:04:14.215 to open up to me, I'm going to help shift that and balance that. 02:04:15.071 --> 02:04:21.811 So, you know, um, I would say that that would that might be her motivation. 02:04:21.926 --> 02:04:24.826 It would be, first of all, to truly protect the horses. 02:04:25.446 --> 02:04:25.686 You know? 02:04:25.686 --> 02:04:29.351 So if they're invoking her and putting up you know, tributes 02:04:29.351 --> 02:04:31.611 to her and statues to her. 02:04:32.071 --> 02:04:34.391 She's, at the very least, gonna protect the horses. 02:04:34.391 --> 02:04:35.371 There's no question. 02:04:35.591 --> 02:04:39.116 But I think also this feminine archetype of Transformation. 02:04:39.256 --> 02:04:42.396 She's a she's a an archetype of transformation. 02:04:43.096 --> 02:04:48.765 And so what she would be doing is seeing how what an in she can get to to help to 02:04:48.765 --> 02:04:49.506 Rupert Isaacson: ship things. 02:04:50.845 --> 02:04:51.245 Yes. 02:04:51.245 --> 02:04:56.385 I I could when you were saying that war goddess mounted war 02:04:56.385 --> 02:04:58.785 goddess came into my mind. 02:04:58.785 --> 02:04:59.765 She was the Valkyries. 02:04:59.825 --> 02:05:05.460 You know, the Valkyries come down To choose the slain 02:05:05.460 --> 02:05:06.840 from the Norse battlefields. 02:05:06.900 --> 02:05:09.860 If you died with your sword in hand, they'll take you up on their 02:05:09.860 --> 02:05:12.285 horses to Valhalla, to Odin's hall. 02:05:12.285 --> 02:05:16.205 I sometimes think that, actually, my wife, Ileana, moonlights for Odin on 02:05:16.205 --> 02:05:20.190 Sundays sometimes and goes around the same battlefields and Takes them up 02:05:20.190 --> 02:05:23.730 to it, but she's a bit dark on the subject, but I suspect she does do it. 02:05:24.270 --> 02:05:31.485 And There is a warrior goddess who you're not invoking the 02:05:31.485 --> 02:05:34.625 Valkyries for success in battle. 02:05:35.480 --> 02:05:39.400 You're invoking the Valkyries for transformation from the 02:05:39.400 --> 02:05:41.980 battlefield to the next stage. 02:05:42.926 --> 02:05:46.655 I wonder if and, of course, as you I think you're dead right that if you're 02:05:46.655 --> 02:05:49.375 a cavalry unit, you would absolutely want protection for your horses. 02:05:49.375 --> 02:05:50.495 Otherwise, you can't operate. 02:05:50.495 --> 02:05:50.655 Right? 02:05:50.655 --> 02:05:52.740 If your horses are Not doing well. 02:05:52.740 --> 02:05:55.960 You your your your military kit is not working. 02:05:56.370 --> 02:06:01.145 But beyond that, if you're a cavalryman, You have a connection to your horses. 02:06:02.675 --> 02:06:05.155 So there's always going to be an aspect of the feminine there 02:06:05.155 --> 02:06:06.275 whether you like it or not. 02:06:06.275 --> 02:06:07.334 There's going to be. 02:06:08.310 --> 02:06:11.990 Is what Epona is doing in in that regard a sort of sneaky way 02:06:11.990 --> 02:06:14.470 in to say to these guys, look. 02:06:14.470 --> 02:06:19.095 You may or may not have even chosen to be here because God knows every soldier 02:06:19.095 --> 02:06:23.115 that shows up on a battlefield is not elected to be there by any means at all. 02:06:23.205 --> 02:06:24.505 But, yeah, here you are. 02:06:26.080 --> 02:06:32.685 Let's make the best of the situation, and at the very least, Convey you to 02:06:32.685 --> 02:06:40.865 the to the next world to the or to the next stage in a way that brings peace. 02:06:42.310 --> 02:06:43.670 Is it, again, is it paradox? 02:06:43.670 --> 02:06:45.850 Is it the peacemaker within the war machine? 02:06:46.550 --> 02:06:48.090 Is that what Epona's doing? 02:06:50.495 --> 02:06:52.114 Linda Kohanov: I would say the latter. 02:06:52.335 --> 02:06:56.355 That's that's what resonates inside of me, and that's what causes my 02:06:57.375 --> 02:06:59.535 hard to expand when you say that. 02:06:59.535 --> 02:07:00.035 Yeah. 02:07:02.240 --> 02:07:02.560 Yeah. 02:07:02.560 --> 02:07:06.800 And, you know, they're the horses themselves appear to be, you 02:07:06.800 --> 02:07:12.185 know, They it's like they've been waiting for centuries for 02:07:12.185 --> 02:07:15.645 us to work out our adolescent fantasies of power and conquest. 02:07:15.705 --> 02:07:16.205 Mhmm. 02:07:16.344 --> 02:07:21.680 And and, You know, I happen to say that now that they're no longer obliged to work 02:07:21.680 --> 02:07:26.965 in our fields and carry us to war, they're finally free To do something arguably 02:07:27.105 --> 02:07:31.445 more important, and I believe it was their mission from the beginning, work on us. 02:07:32.225 --> 02:07:40.210 And So and I think part of that involves rebalancing, helping us know the yang, 02:07:40.210 --> 02:07:42.790 but keep to the yin, as Laozi would say. 02:07:43.315 --> 02:07:45.335 Bring the feminine wisdom back in. 02:07:45.875 --> 02:07:50.115 Understand how to be powerful, but also be nonpredatory at the same time. 02:07:50.115 --> 02:07:52.455 That's a huge piece of horse wisdom. 02:07:53.100 --> 02:07:58.699 And you know, that physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional balance that you 02:07:58.699 --> 02:08:03.805 learn when you become a really fine rider, This is like them working on you for sure. 02:08:03.805 --> 02:08:07.004 You know, you you you transform from the inside out if you 02:08:07.004 --> 02:08:08.704 become a truly great rider. 02:08:09.439 --> 02:08:14.799 And it's just it it it is almost like you know, when they talk 02:08:14.799 --> 02:08:18.179 about the horse in multiple myths as being a gift from the gods. 02:08:18.624 --> 02:08:21.504 It's like they they were a gift from the gods, and we didn't 02:08:21.504 --> 02:08:23.124 really know what to do with it. 02:08:23.424 --> 02:08:28.139 And and yet they've been accompanying us for for centuries And enduring 02:08:28.279 --> 02:08:33.159 our ridiculous exploits, but always there, always there, always there 02:08:33.159 --> 02:08:38.724 just waiting For us to be open to this new form of consciousness that 02:08:38.724 --> 02:08:41.144 they would love for us to step into. 02:08:42.829 --> 02:08:45.949 Rupert Isaacson: It's it's very interesting, you know, with the the 02:08:45.949 --> 02:08:50.059 method that we've evolved working with autistic children, which we call horse 02:08:50.059 --> 02:08:56.214 boy method, which evolved Simply out of me observing that when I had my son in 02:08:56.214 --> 02:09:00.074 front of me when he was very young and he was nonverbal, the more collected, 02:09:00.889 --> 02:09:04.969 Softly collected the rhythm of the horse, the more communication I got. 02:09:04.969 --> 02:09:09.704 And I didn't know why until I went to talk to, Neuroscientists about it and 02:09:09.704 --> 02:09:15.244 have them explain that what was going on was hip rocking, creating oxytocin, 02:09:15.384 --> 02:09:19.059 oxytocin being The feel good hormone calming down the nervous system, but 02:09:19.059 --> 02:09:20.359 also the hormone of communication. 02:09:20.899 --> 02:09:23.779 And he was just being flooded with this and, oh my gosh. 02:09:23.779 --> 02:09:24.099 Okay. 02:09:24.099 --> 02:09:24.839 That's wonderful. 02:09:25.924 --> 02:09:31.204 But what's intriguing to me, again, paradoxically, is that the training system 02:09:31.204 --> 02:09:39.369 that we use to bring this, Collection, this movement of the center of gravity 02:09:39.509 --> 02:09:43.644 under where the rider sits with the hind legs coming forward To create this hip 02:09:43.644 --> 02:09:48.064 rocking, blissful feeling is, of course, training the horse for the light calorie. 02:09:48.364 --> 02:09:51.749 And and it occurred to me that we were using a system that was 02:09:51.749 --> 02:09:53.689 designed to harm your fellow man. 02:09:54.309 --> 02:10:00.454 Now because of this oxytocin byproduct to heal your fellow man, But the 02:10:00.454 --> 02:10:01.974 horse was an innocent either way. 02:10:01.974 --> 02:10:08.314 The horse could lend its power to one whichever way one decided to go with that. 02:10:10.469 --> 02:10:18.224 And this humbled me massively because it made me realize how Generous horses. 02:10:20.604 --> 02:10:21.004 Ah. 02:10:21.004 --> 02:10:24.224 And I I wonder what do you feel about this? 02:10:24.339 --> 02:10:26.439 We we we talked about higher self earlier. 02:10:28.179 --> 02:10:33.714 I feel that this generosity that horses have with humans Allowing 02:10:33.714 --> 02:10:39.174 us to, as you say, our silly monkey adolescent fantasies, you know, 02:10:39.234 --> 02:10:44.629 projected through Millennia of conquest, not just a few years of our 02:10:44.629 --> 02:10:48.149 human history, and yet they've been patient with us, you know, and given 02:10:48.149 --> 02:10:49.929 us all this bliss and all this joy. 02:10:50.854 --> 02:10:53.994 Do you feel that they bring out generosity in the human heart? 02:10:55.894 --> 02:10:56.554 Linda Kohanov: I do. 02:10:58.109 --> 02:10:59.409 And, also, equanimity. 02:11:00.109 --> 02:11:05.139 You know, this this ability to be present with what's happening 02:11:06.564 --> 02:11:11.604 And to move through it with some level of agility I mean, horses are 02:11:11.604 --> 02:11:13.484 very much like Jay Krishnamurti. 02:11:13.784 --> 02:11:18.204 He was a famous sage who was discovered in India. 02:11:18.344 --> 02:11:23.419 And, Later in life, he went around the world doing lectures on mindfulness and 02:11:23.419 --> 02:11:31.024 various forms of spirituality and was very revered as almost Supernatural teacher. 02:11:31.484 --> 02:11:35.024 And he was at a lecture one time in Europe, I think it was. 02:11:35.484 --> 02:11:37.569 And People were asking questions. 02:11:37.569 --> 02:11:41.269 And finally, he said, you know, do you wanna know my secret? 02:11:42.049 --> 02:11:43.649 And everybody was like, oh, good. 02:11:43.649 --> 02:11:47.074 We signed up for the right lecture because he's gonna tell us his Secret. 02:11:47.074 --> 02:11:50.294 And he said, I don't mind what happens. 02:11:51.794 --> 02:11:53.894 That's an extreme state of equanimity. 02:11:54.194 --> 02:11:55.539 No matter what's It's happening. 02:11:55.539 --> 02:11:56.899 I'm present with it. 02:11:56.899 --> 02:12:01.479 I can but, also, I I feel like it's it can also be seen as a plan words. 02:12:01.939 --> 02:12:07.264 I don't mind what's happening Would be I'm not exclusively in the thinking 02:12:07.264 --> 02:12:12.144 brain about it either because his his a lot of his teachings was about going 02:12:12.144 --> 02:12:17.369 beyond words, going into the Power of what you can learn by being silent 02:12:18.069 --> 02:12:20.709 and how you can listen in silence. 02:12:20.709 --> 02:12:26.014 And so when you see horses, They have more of that attitude. 02:12:26.154 --> 02:12:27.774 I don't mind what happens. 02:12:28.264 --> 02:12:30.184 I don't mind if you're angry. 02:12:30.184 --> 02:12:31.999 I just want you to know that you are. 02:12:32.239 --> 02:12:36.659 I don't mind that you're, you know, that you're traumatized. 02:12:38.029 --> 02:12:41.824 I let me let me help you Calm your nervous system. 02:12:42.124 --> 02:12:42.445 You know? 02:12:42.445 --> 02:12:45.105 I don't mind that Rowan is autistic. 02:12:45.164 --> 02:12:47.744 I don't mind that Rowan is throwing these tantrums. 02:12:48.204 --> 02:12:49.085 Let me come over. 02:12:49.085 --> 02:12:49.644 I'm with you. 02:12:49.644 --> 02:12:50.349 I'm with you. 02:12:50.429 --> 02:12:51.389 I don't mind it. 02:12:51.389 --> 02:12:52.529 You're okay, Rowan. 02:12:52.829 --> 02:12:53.550 You know? 02:12:53.550 --> 02:12:57.389 And I just feel like they do that all the time. 02:12:57.389 --> 02:13:04.274 And so they show how The the supreme generosity of horses 02:13:04.324 --> 02:13:09.725 is is godlike in a way in which there's nourishment for everybody. 02:13:10.265 --> 02:13:12.265 Everybody's welcome on the Earth. 02:13:12.265 --> 02:13:13.225 Everybody's welcome. 02:13:13.225 --> 02:13:14.425 We're we're working with you. 02:13:14.425 --> 02:13:18.080 We're trying to help you out here, But we're not taking sides here. 02:13:18.080 --> 02:13:25.075 And a lot of people recently are constantly making the case that God is 02:13:25.075 --> 02:13:27.015 on their side and not the other side. 02:13:27.154 --> 02:13:32.114 But, you know, maybe God is more horse like in the sense that yeah. 02:13:32.114 --> 02:13:39.890 So I'm I'm Leading Romans on my back here, and I'm, you know, with the Buddha, 02:13:40.111 --> 02:13:45.525 and I'm, You know, helping somebody who's very poor plow their fields. 02:13:45.585 --> 02:13:50.210 And and the whole time, just waiting for people to wake up and notice And not 02:13:50.210 --> 02:13:53.570 using them as tools, but to say, hey. 02:13:53.570 --> 02:13:55.190 Can I learn some of that equanimity? 02:13:55.489 --> 02:14:02.005 Can I learn how to be authentic And not mind what happens in the 02:14:02.005 --> 02:14:03.785 paradoxical sense of that word? 02:14:04.965 --> 02:14:05.465 Beautifully 02:14:05.526 --> 02:14:06.026 Rupert Isaacson: put. 02:14:07.231 --> 02:14:07.471 Alright. 02:14:07.471 --> 02:14:11.240 As we approach the end of this conversation, because 02:14:11.240 --> 02:14:12.440 I'd like to have you back on. 02:14:12.440 --> 02:14:15.346 I've got a lot of questions that are coming To mine. 02:14:15.346 --> 02:14:17.585 So if you'd be I could love to come 02:14:17.585 --> 02:14:17.985 Linda Kohanov: back on. 02:14:17.985 --> 02:14:19.505 I'd love talking with you. 02:14:19.505 --> 02:14:20.785 Rupert Isaacson: I'd love to have a round two. 02:14:20.785 --> 02:14:23.811 And and there's gonna be a ton of questions from people. 02:14:23.870 --> 02:14:27.650 And I've got plenty of my own, which I I just wanna keep going with it. 02:14:27.790 --> 02:14:30.690 Here here's a question, though, back to the Live Free, Ride Free idea. 02:14:30.780 --> 02:14:33.885 You when you were a little girl Dreaming about horses. 02:14:33.885 --> 02:14:35.005 By the way, what state was that? 02:14:35.005 --> 02:14:38.096 What state were you brought up in where you would Ohio. 02:14:38.396 --> 02:14:42.551 You're in Ohio, and Then you would you would sneak off to where this 02:14:42.551 --> 02:14:46.443 trainer had a yard but you didn't find your way to horse ownership 02:14:46.502 --> 02:14:47.867 until you were in your thirties. 02:14:47.867 --> 02:14:51.247 But you found your way there because you gave yourself a certain economic stability 02:14:51.547 --> 02:14:57.602 through music, which a lot of people would say is Itself you know, not an easy way 02:14:57.602 --> 02:14:59.542 to find your way to economic stability. 02:14:59.682 --> 02:15:06.157 What allowed you To imagine life and a career with the 02:15:06.157 --> 02:15:08.652 arts And then with the horse. 02:15:09.032 --> 02:15:10.652 And bring that to reality. 02:15:12.471 --> 02:15:15.112 This started before horses were reaching out through you or 02:15:15.112 --> 02:15:16.637 perhaps they were the whole time. 02:15:18.078 --> 02:15:21.937 But, yeah, there's there'll be listeners out there going, 02:15:21.998 --> 02:15:23.277 how do I become Linda Konov? 02:15:23.277 --> 02:15:26.257 Or how do I become my own version of Linda Konov? 02:15:28.832 --> 02:15:30.032 What would you say to them? 02:15:30.032 --> 02:15:34.752 What what what what's the most important stages of the journey that bring you 02:15:34.752 --> 02:15:42.038 from the little girl Dreaming to the lady sitting being interviewed today. 02:15:44.583 --> 02:15:51.142 Linda Kohanov: I think part of it was a trajectory that feels designed for 02:15:51.142 --> 02:15:55.517 me to develop some Skills even though it didn't seem to have my own it it was 02:15:55.517 --> 02:16:00.337 like things happen that were beyond my wildest dreams when I sort of submitted 02:16:00.397 --> 02:16:04.102 to Certain directions that didn't feel like the right direction at times. 02:16:04.322 --> 02:16:04.642 Mhmm. 02:16:04.642 --> 02:16:08.377 And one of those was that Yeah. 02:16:08.377 --> 02:16:11.498 And just feeling like you're you're being guided in some sense even though it 02:16:11.498 --> 02:16:13.097 seems like you're being taken off track. 02:16:13.097 --> 02:16:15.852 And I realized that those times that I got taken off Track. 02:16:15.852 --> 02:16:19.952 I had to go off track and learn something that I needed later for my true purpose. 02:16:20.732 --> 02:16:25.157 And one thing I mean, the reason why I ended up being a music major is It's 02:16:25.157 --> 02:16:29.716 because my parents thought it was more reasonable to to be a music major than 02:16:29.716 --> 02:16:31.556 it was to do anything with horses. 02:16:31.556 --> 02:16:33.796 So they were, like, picking the lesser of two evils. 02:16:33.796 --> 02:16:34.762 It's like, You know? 02:16:34.762 --> 02:16:34.842 Yeah. 02:16:34.842 --> 02:16:37.402 Get get her interested in music. 02:16:37.402 --> 02:16:41.261 And also, I got a full scholarship in college to be a music major. 02:16:41.562 --> 02:16:43.582 And they were like, please take the scholarship. 02:16:43.677 --> 02:16:44.078 You know? 02:16:44.078 --> 02:16:49.967 And and then I became a music critic and then met my husband through through music. 02:16:50.186 --> 02:16:55.001 And, And then what happened was, interestingly enough, music and 02:16:55.001 --> 02:16:56.701 horses have always been tied together. 02:16:57.001 --> 02:17:02.636 So to buy my first Arabian mare, Rasa, who became my greatest teacher and 02:17:02.636 --> 02:17:07.296 the one who really started this work I had to sell my viola and most of 02:17:07.296 --> 02:17:09.401 my CD collection to By that horse. 02:17:10.100 --> 02:17:13.541 And so then I had all these adventures with her, and then I got 02:17:13.541 --> 02:17:15.300 an advance to write the Dao of Equis. 02:17:15.300 --> 02:17:18.441 And so when I got that advance, I used it to buy another viola. 02:17:19.366 --> 02:17:23.576 And then through all of these years, learning how to be with the horses 02:17:23.796 --> 02:17:27.861 and interact with the horses and dance with the horses and breathe 02:17:27.861 --> 02:17:31.190 with the horses and learn all of these stress reducing techniques. 02:17:31.250 --> 02:17:34.450 It actually brought me back into being able to play and 02:17:34.450 --> 02:17:36.070 compose at a whole new level. 02:17:36.795 --> 02:17:41.675 So the horses and the music have always been interacting in this very odd way, 02:17:41.675 --> 02:17:46.029 and it's fun now to To be in a field where I'm bringing the two together. 02:17:46.029 --> 02:17:51.310 We just did a workshop last week, a four day workshop called Not a Brahma, the 02:17:51.310 --> 02:17:56.485 universe's sound, And it brings in some of the mystical aspects of music, the 02:17:56.545 --> 02:18:00.245 self development and healing aspects of music along with work with the horses. 02:18:00.601 --> 02:18:03.500 And there were mostly people there who didn't know anything about horses, 02:18:04.280 --> 02:18:09.815 and they were amazed at how the horses opened them up and shifted things So 02:18:09.815 --> 02:18:14.775 that they could actually step forward and play at a much more beautiful level. 02:18:14.775 --> 02:18:17.720 Even if they weren't musicians themselves, Somehow the work with 02:18:17.720 --> 02:18:23.640 the horses gave them even the courage to begin to to make music together. 02:18:23.640 --> 02:18:28.885 So somehow the two are truly Interacting all the time for me. 02:18:29.265 --> 02:18:29.505 Well, 02:18:29.505 --> 02:18:34.645 Rupert Isaacson: I guess I guess what lies at the at the core of 02:18:35.110 --> 02:18:37.190 Riding and training horses' rhythm. 02:18:37.190 --> 02:18:37.690 Right? 02:18:37.990 --> 02:18:40.410 We have to be able to match the horse's rhythm. 02:18:40.630 --> 02:18:43.190 We have to be able to it's an emotional rhythm, but there also 02:18:43.190 --> 02:18:44.410 has to be a physical rhythm. 02:18:44.855 --> 02:18:45.176 Yeah. 02:18:45.176 --> 02:18:48.535 One two three four for the walk, one two one two for the trot, one two 02:18:48.535 --> 02:18:50.075 three one two three for the cancer. 02:18:50.216 --> 02:18:53.510 And these have to be predictable enough to our training system that 02:18:53.510 --> 02:18:57.590 we can then do things with them and not be surprised by arrhythmic things 02:18:57.590 --> 02:19:01.216 that might, as you say, leave us in the dust or, at the very least, Break 02:19:01.216 --> 02:19:02.915 the activity we're trying to do. 02:19:03.405 --> 02:19:07.907 And if one thinks of all these musical motifs around horses the the shaman's 02:19:07.907 --> 02:19:14.932 drum, you know, the round drum, the in Celtic traditions, which is A galloping 02:19:14.991 --> 02:19:23.337 horse Baroque music, which was designed to be Done to these equestrian shows 02:19:23.747 --> 02:19:27.347 with the horses, you know, performing in this way in front of Versailles and 02:19:27.347 --> 02:19:29.288 these other, you know, palaces of Europe. 02:19:30.853 --> 02:19:36.373 The music and horses, it's it's been a concurrent theme and rhythm forever. 02:19:36.373 --> 02:19:43.009 Yet at the same time, What comes in what comes into my head is this 02:19:43.308 --> 02:19:47.392 also this relationship with horses and dream And the imagination. 02:19:48.172 --> 02:19:50.733 And it resonates with me very much that there was this little 02:19:50.733 --> 02:19:53.322 girl in Ohio . Who was dreaming. 02:19:54.007 --> 02:19:59.301 Although I can absolutely see the Connection between music and rhythm 02:19:59.601 --> 02:20:03.601 with the human horse connection and the adventure that we've gone 02:20:03.601 --> 02:20:05.301 on over the centuries with that. 02:20:05.754 --> 02:20:09.834 It seems to me that this vehicle horses lending themselves to 02:20:09.834 --> 02:20:17.159 our dreams, our aspirations, our fantasies, our Well, for good or ill. 02:20:17.529 --> 02:20:19.289 But, yeah, this thing of dream. 02:20:19.289 --> 02:20:23.345 And there there was this little girl in Ohio Who was dreaming. 02:20:25.084 --> 02:20:32.620 And she was dreaming of these animals that seemed to have this ability to Bring 02:20:32.620 --> 02:20:38.559 one into dream and then bring one out of dream with dreams somewhat manifest. 02:20:41.374 --> 02:20:45.054 Is this something which if someone was to come on your courses, 02:20:45.054 --> 02:20:50.179 for example, they could learn how to tap into it and, Harness. 02:20:50.239 --> 02:20:51.619 There's another horse motif. 02:20:52.959 --> 02:20:53.359 Linda Kohanov: Yes. 02:20:53.359 --> 02:20:53.859 Exactly. 02:20:54.269 --> 02:20:54.769 Absolutely. 02:20:54.908 --> 02:21:00.473 That's that's that's The purpose of what I teach I mean, I don't really I mean, I 02:21:00.473 --> 02:21:05.273 I teach emotional and social intelligence and leadership skills to equestrians that 02:21:05.273 --> 02:21:08.248 help their Riding and training at times. 02:21:08.468 --> 02:21:13.368 But most of what I do is we work with horses to teach advanced human development 02:21:13.428 --> 02:21:18.314 skills to people whether or not they've ever thought about horses before. 02:21:18.613 --> 02:21:23.943 And and we also bring in, you know, creativity, and we bring in emotional 02:21:24.083 --> 02:21:28.548 intelligence skills and And leadership skills because, you know, here's the 02:21:28.548 --> 02:21:37.713 thing, is that once you access your true calling and Your authentic goal in life. 02:21:38.253 --> 02:21:42.013 A lot of times to manifest that, you need to be able to step into 02:21:42.013 --> 02:21:46.228 a leadership role If you're gonna manifest it in any meaningful way. 02:21:46.288 --> 02:21:51.008 And so a lot of times, we teach also some some leadership skills through 02:21:51.008 --> 02:21:56.299 working with horses so that people who dream big dreams and access those dreams 02:21:56.679 --> 02:22:01.613 learn how to then and and be a leader in maybe a new field they're creating 02:22:01.613 --> 02:22:04.033 or a new company they're creating. 02:22:05.489 --> 02:22:09.029 So and that was one of the things that, you know, was kind of disturbing 02:22:09.089 --> 02:22:15.504 to me when when I wrote these books, About what horses have to teach people 02:22:15.504 --> 02:22:18.623 is that now all of a sudden, I I'm in I'm in a leadership role if I'm 02:22:18.623 --> 02:22:20.143 gonna take it to any certain level. 02:22:20.143 --> 02:22:21.343 I need staff people. 02:22:21.343 --> 02:22:25.647 I need, you know, Promotional people, I need when people come to 02:22:25.647 --> 02:22:28.868 see me, I need to be able to manage whatever they're going through. 02:22:29.328 --> 02:22:33.063 And but the horse has taught me how to be a leader in a completely different 02:22:33.063 --> 02:22:37.723 way than the way you normally see it in a conquest oriented mentality. 02:22:38.128 --> 02:22:43.088 So so there's so much to learn from them, and I'm just so excited to be in this 02:22:43.088 --> 02:22:50.413 field that I actually Helped to bring into form just like you with your horse 02:22:50.413 --> 02:22:57.058 boy programs, and, certainly, Rowan was was there to help that Happened as well. 02:22:57.058 --> 02:23:03.163 And and I feel that way about my horse, Rasa, who actually She was wounded. 02:23:03.223 --> 02:23:07.862 She had a condition in her right back stifle that made it hard to ride her. 02:23:07.862 --> 02:23:10.663 And because I was knocked off my high horse and had to relate 02:23:10.663 --> 02:23:14.248 to her on the ground, That's what created this whole field. 02:23:14.248 --> 02:23:19.368 So a lot of times, it's someone who appears to be wounded that is actually 02:23:19.368 --> 02:23:25.473 the one who's leading us into a Whole new area of experience and innovation. 02:23:26.093 --> 02:23:26.413 I would 02:23:26.413 --> 02:23:26.813 Rupert Isaacson: agree. 02:23:26.813 --> 02:23:28.333 The wounded weather light shines in. 02:23:28.333 --> 02:23:28.833 Absolutely. 02:23:30.858 --> 02:23:31.258 Yeah. 02:23:31.258 --> 02:23:31.758 Absolutely. 02:23:31.898 --> 02:23:35.578 I and I I've had a couple of horses that could no longer be ridden who 02:23:35.578 --> 02:23:42.453 taught me how to work in entirely different ways And allowed me to see 02:23:42.453 --> 02:23:45.673 that as metaphors for other areas of my life where perhaps I was stuck, 02:23:45.973 --> 02:23:47.898 only seeing things in a certain way. 02:23:47.978 --> 02:23:48.957 So listen, Linda. 02:23:49.008 --> 02:23:52.527 People are gonna want to know the books, and they're gonna want to know 02:23:52.527 --> 02:23:53.987 how to come on one of your courses. 02:23:54.557 --> 02:23:57.872 And I presume they're gonna have to travel to Arizona to come on one of your courses. 02:23:57.872 --> 02:23:58.672 Is that right? 02:23:58.672 --> 02:24:01.412 Or can they do them they can also do them online, I think. 02:24:02.007 --> 02:24:03.446 So talk us Yes. 02:24:03.446 --> 02:24:03.647 Yes. 02:24:03.847 --> 02:24:09.127 What what people need to know, what should they read, in what order, and then how 02:24:09.127 --> 02:24:10.872 do they Come on one of your courses. 02:24:10.872 --> 02:24:12.152 How do they contact you? 02:24:12.152 --> 02:24:13.112 How do they do it online? 02:24:13.112 --> 02:24:14.332 How do they do it in person? 02:24:16.937 --> 02:24:21.357 Linda Kohanov: Well, luckily, I I have trained instructors all over the world, 02:24:21.576 --> 02:24:26.181 and there are Honequest instructors, or We also have a leadership model called 02:24:26.181 --> 02:24:28.201 the five roles of a master herder. 02:24:28.691 --> 02:24:31.436 So some of them are master herder instructors or Power of the 02:24:31.436 --> 02:24:33.936 herd instructors that have more of a leadership orientation. 02:24:34.746 --> 02:24:38.526 Eponaquest instructors are really more of a personal development orientation. 02:24:40.562 --> 02:24:45.041 And, also, I was able to create these online courses so that, you 02:24:45.041 --> 02:24:48.321 know, if you can't travel anywhere right now or you you're just 02:24:48.321 --> 02:24:49.696 not ready to go out with Horses. 02:24:49.696 --> 02:24:54.936 You can learn these skills with inspirational stories and videos from 02:24:54.936 --> 02:24:58.636 the horses, but it's really about taking it directly to the human world. 02:24:58.941 --> 02:25:04.081 So my online courses are available on a website called linda kohanov dot com. 02:25:04.781 --> 02:25:12.826 And The other courses that are about doing workshops would mostly be on 02:25:12.826 --> 02:25:18.910 my Website, eponaquest dot com, named after the quest I've been on with the 02:25:18.910 --> 02:25:21.811 goddess Epona, eponaquest dot com. 02:25:21.926 --> 02:25:25.365 And you'll see not only workshops that I'm doing on there, but you'll see a 02:25:25.365 --> 02:25:27.706 list of instructors throughout the world. 02:25:28.166 --> 02:25:31.570 And you can con you can find somebody in your region and call that, Contact that 02:25:31.570 --> 02:25:37.191 person and see if they're doing private or group work or workshops anytime soon. 02:25:38.480 --> 02:25:42.555 sO If, you know, if you're if you're really curious about which way you 02:25:42.555 --> 02:25:49.813 should go I would say just I can I can give you my direct Email? 02:25:50.353 --> 02:25:53.552 And you can always just write a note and just say, hey. 02:25:53.552 --> 02:25:54.613 This is my interest. 02:25:54.832 --> 02:25:56.032 What do you think I should do? 02:25:56.032 --> 02:25:57.332 I'm located here. 02:25:57.477 --> 02:26:01.417 How do I you know, what do you what would you recommend for me to sign up for? 02:26:02.066 --> 02:26:02.861 So I email? 02:26:02.861 --> 02:26:03.016 Yeah. 02:26:03.266 --> 02:26:04.086 Direct email. 02:26:04.761 --> 02:26:06.602 It's it's named after my horse, Rasa. 02:26:06.602 --> 02:26:11.001 So that's r as in Ralph, a as in apple, s as in Sam, a as in apple. 02:26:11.001 --> 02:26:14.358 Rasa At eponaquest dot com. 02:26:14.358 --> 02:26:19.717 So that's e, p as in Paul, o, n as in Nick, a q u e s t dot com. 02:26:19.717 --> 02:26:21.658 Rasa at eponaquest dot com. 02:26:21.892 --> 02:26:25.492 And you can go to epona quest dot com and just kinda, like, look at 02:26:25.492 --> 02:26:27.432 the workshops that are coming up. 02:26:27.652 --> 02:26:30.667 And then the online courses are at linda kohanev dot com. 02:26:30.827 --> 02:26:34.187 But if you go to upon request dot com, there is a link there that will take 02:26:34.187 --> 02:26:36.427 you to that online course page too. 02:26:36.427 --> 02:26:36.747 So 02:26:37.307 --> 02:26:37.707 Rupert Isaacson: Super. 02:26:37.707 --> 02:26:43.271 Now I'm gonna I'm gonna read those off again in a moment so people who didn't 02:26:43.271 --> 02:26:45.112 have a pen handy can hear them again. 02:26:45.112 --> 02:26:45.832 So don't worry. 02:26:45.832 --> 02:26:46.811 People don't panic. 02:26:47.596 --> 02:26:51.676 The books in order, Tower of Equest. 02:26:54.151 --> 02:26:54.471 Then 02:26:54.471 --> 02:26:54.710 Linda Kohanov: riding 02:26:54.710 --> 02:26:55.691 Rupert Isaacson: between the worlds. 02:26:56.630 --> 02:26:59.210 Riding Then between the worlds. 02:27:00.471 --> 02:27:00.971 Yes. 02:27:01.111 --> 02:27:01.590 Then? 02:27:01.590 --> 02:27:04.106 Linda Kohanov: Then Way of the horse way of the horse. 02:27:04.106 --> 02:27:09.006 It's a deck of horse wisdom cards with a significant book that goes with it. 02:27:09.146 --> 02:27:09.646 Right. 02:27:10.942 --> 02:27:15.501 Then the power of the herd, and then finally, the five 02:27:15.501 --> 02:27:17.121 roles of a master herder. 02:27:17.987 --> 02:27:19.126 The five roles. 02:27:20.147 --> 02:27:20.647 Yes. 02:27:21.506 --> 02:27:22.546 Of a master herder. 02:27:22.546 --> 02:27:25.586 And this is actually something you and I might wanna have fun talking about 02:27:25.586 --> 02:27:29.881 because I would love to hear your experiences with these nomadic tribes, 02:27:30.101 --> 02:27:32.841 the horse tribes, and the reindeer tribes. 02:27:34.236 --> 02:27:38.095 I took this leadership model from studying those nomadic pastoral cultures 02:27:38.156 --> 02:27:42.751 throughout the world in different ways, and I saw that they Actually use five 02:27:42.751 --> 02:27:47.390 roles of power and social influence to to deal with these animals that many of 02:27:47.390 --> 02:27:49.331 whom are loose quite a bit of the time. 02:27:49.390 --> 02:27:49.711 Yes. 02:27:49.711 --> 02:27:50.211 Absolutely. 02:27:50.510 --> 02:27:55.826 And so Leader leader is just one of five roles of power and social influence. 02:27:55.826 --> 02:28:00.021 And so I learned that if we're going to influence It's groups of free empowered 02:28:00.021 --> 02:28:03.781 people as all the old fences of social controls are falling down, that we could 02:28:03.781 --> 02:28:07.321 actually learn a lot from this model based on those nomadic pastoralists. 02:28:07.381 --> 02:28:11.236 I mean, We could have such a conversation on that, and I would be asking 02:28:11.236 --> 02:28:12.996 you a bunch of questions for sure. 02:28:12.996 --> 02:28:13.236 I'd 02:28:13.236 --> 02:28:13.635 Rupert Isaacson: love it. 02:28:13.635 --> 02:28:17.920 There's there's someone else I'm thinking of that I I would Involve in it. 02:28:17.920 --> 02:28:21.541 Here's my friend, Jumanda Haklebone, who is from Botswana. 02:28:21.681 --> 02:28:22.821 He's he's Bushman. 02:28:24.266 --> 02:28:28.506 And that particular clan in the Central Kalahari Game Reserve are known for 02:28:28.506 --> 02:28:32.106 their horsemanship, and they're known for having sort of adopted and co opted 02:28:32.106 --> 02:28:37.171 horses in the same way that, say, the Comanche did and really created a sun 02:28:37.171 --> 02:28:41.986 bushman horse culture To the point that I took in fox hunting in Virginia. 02:28:42.366 --> 02:28:46.446 And he could ride anything, and he could bring you know, I had a lot of, you 02:28:46.446 --> 02:28:50.862 know, White blue blooded fox hunters. 02:28:50.862 --> 02:28:51.501 They're going, really? 02:28:51.501 --> 02:28:52.862 We're gonna give the horse to this guy? 02:28:52.862 --> 02:28:55.857 Like, believe me, he's gonna bring this horse in better than it went out. 02:28:56.337 --> 02:29:03.832 And they absolutely didn't how they access the shamanic and how they how they Co 02:29:03.832 --> 02:29:07.192 opted all their wild herbs that they use for all their other medicinal purposes 02:29:07.192 --> 02:29:11.192 for the horse before they really knew that even without really knowing the horse 02:29:11.192 --> 02:29:13.212 and how they created this horse culture. 02:29:13.417 --> 02:29:15.177 It's it's it's interesting stuff. 02:29:15.227 --> 02:29:17.568 But, look, there's so many questions just generally. 02:29:17.627 --> 02:29:19.966 I I think we gotta have a a round two. 02:29:20.721 --> 02:29:21.221 Linda Kohanov: Absolutely. 02:29:21.441 --> 02:29:24.880 And if you wanna bring your friend in on this too, I mean, that would be thrilling. 02:29:24.880 --> 02:29:25.361 It would. 02:29:25.361 --> 02:29:25.601 I mean, 02:29:25.601 --> 02:29:28.081 Rupert Isaacson: we might not be able to get him on live, but maybe what we can do 02:29:28.081 --> 02:29:32.466 is post some questions to And and and get him get him there because who knows where 02:29:32.466 --> 02:29:34.946 he is in the Kalahari at any given time. 02:29:34.946 --> 02:29:35.426 I see. 02:29:35.426 --> 02:29:35.827 Okay. 02:29:35.827 --> 02:29:38.707 He'll usually he'll usually answer a WhatsApp at a certain point 02:29:38.707 --> 02:29:42.332 when he's At a place where he has it's it's it's it's it's an 02:29:42.332 --> 02:29:43.692 extraordinary world we live in now. 02:29:43.692 --> 02:29:47.051 You have, you know, people living effectively hunter gatherer 02:29:47.051 --> 02:29:48.091 lifestyles with cell phones. 02:29:48.091 --> 02:29:48.412 You know? 02:29:48.412 --> 02:29:51.516 It's it's We're at an interesting crossroads of our culture. 02:29:52.726 --> 02:29:53.046 Okay. 02:29:53.046 --> 02:29:58.822 So for everybody listening, start with the Tower of Equus, Then it's riding 02:29:58.822 --> 02:30:07.125 between the worlds, then way of the horse, then the power of the herd, And 02:30:07.125 --> 02:30:10.425 then the five roles of a master herder. 02:30:11.846 --> 02:30:16.681 If you want the online courses, linda kohanov dot com. 02:30:16.681 --> 02:30:23.662 L I n d a k o h a n o v dot com. 02:30:24.596 --> 02:30:29.816 If you're looking for the live courses, whether in your area or 02:30:30.067 --> 02:30:32.663 in Arizona where she is, Hopefully. 02:30:32.663 --> 02:30:34.362 I'm sure there's a big waiting list. 02:30:34.663 --> 02:30:43.037 Eponaquest dot com, e p o n a q u e s t dot com. 02:30:43.177 --> 02:30:52.142 And if you wanna send her your questions r a s a, rasa, At epona quest dot com. 02:30:53.482 --> 02:30:57.982 Is there anything that you'd like to add before we close out round one? 02:31:02.107 --> 02:31:02.428 Linda Kohanov: No. 02:31:02.428 --> 02:31:05.147 I'm just so grateful to be able to connect with you. 02:31:05.147 --> 02:31:11.567 And your your story has been so moving to me over the years, and I had an 02:31:11.567 --> 02:31:15.683 opportunity just to meet up with you at At Warwick Schiller's conference. 02:31:16.303 --> 02:31:20.782 And I got to meet Rowan, and I think you might have seen how in shock I 02:31:20.782 --> 02:31:26.467 was at what An outstanding young man he's turned out to be in so many ways. 02:31:26.878 --> 02:31:31.573 So I found that so moving, and I'm just so happy to to meet up with you 02:31:31.573 --> 02:31:32.952 and have these great discussions. 02:31:33.013 --> 02:31:33.893 So thank you so 02:31:33.893 --> 02:31:34.393 Rupert Isaacson: much. 02:31:34.452 --> 02:31:35.253 Well, thank you. 02:31:35.253 --> 02:31:37.573 You know, that that makes me think, actually, you know, for 02:31:37.573 --> 02:31:41.958 round two, we should absolutely ask Rowan Some questions. 02:31:42.338 --> 02:31:43.558 That would be fun. 02:31:43.779 --> 02:31:46.898 Because he has he does have a really interesting connection to horses. 02:31:46.898 --> 02:31:52.622 While by no means being The obsessive horseman that I am at 02:31:52.622 --> 02:31:54.622 all, and yet he has this connection. 02:31:54.622 --> 02:31:56.702 It's it's to and not just a horse. 02:31:56.702 --> 02:31:57.343 It's all animals. 02:31:57.343 --> 02:31:58.563 It's it's really extraordinary. 02:31:58.568 --> 02:32:01.766 So, yeah, maybe we should think up some questions, and and he might 02:32:01.766 --> 02:32:03.766 even come on live, see how he feels. 02:32:03.766 --> 02:32:06.892 He'll actually be yeah, he'll be he'll be here in a couple of days. 02:32:08.042 --> 02:32:08.542 Listen. 02:32:08.681 --> 02:32:10.301 Linda, I'm so grateful. 02:32:11.162 --> 02:32:16.317 I I know that I'm gonna be emailing you to Come out to Arizona. 02:32:17.166 --> 02:32:19.026 I can't I would love that. 02:32:19.196 --> 02:32:20.876 So please let's talk about that. 02:32:20.876 --> 02:32:25.121 And, Obviously, if you come want to come to Germany and play with our ponies here 02:32:25.121 --> 02:32:27.540 in the forests of Hessen, please do. 02:32:28.591 --> 02:32:31.546 Linda Kohanov: mAybe in a Maybe in a year or two, I might come back to Europe. 02:32:31.546 --> 02:32:32.766 So Please. 02:32:32.987 --> 02:32:34.686 Rupert Isaacson: Door is wide open anytime. 02:32:35.336 --> 02:32:35.896 buT listen. 02:32:35.896 --> 02:32:37.101 We I'm very grateful. 02:32:37.211 --> 02:32:40.454 This has been extremely informative inspirational. 02:32:40.994 --> 02:32:45.969 I know that All of the listeners, whether they're horse people or not, will have 02:32:46.509 --> 02:32:52.984 walked away from hearing you with The Doorways Between the Worlds opened. 02:32:54.244 --> 02:32:56.104 So I thank you for that. 02:32:57.604 --> 02:32:58.425 Thank you. 02:32:59.090 --> 02:33:00.790 And I look forward to the next time. 02:33:01.970 --> 02:33:02.710 Me too. 02:33:03.729 --> 02:33:04.849 This is the hardest thing. 02:33:04.849 --> 02:33:09.349 I'm gonna hit that red button, but let's let's talk further and 02:33:09.349 --> 02:33:11.589 try to arrange the round too. 02:33:11.589 --> 02:33:15.504 And everybody who's listening, By all means, send your questions to me. 02:33:15.504 --> 02:33:19.204 By all means, send your questions to Linda, and we will endeavor 02:33:19.904 --> 02:33:21.924 to answer them on round two. 02:33:23.190 --> 02:33:24.249 Linda, thank you. 02:33:24.789 --> 02:33:25.269 Excellent. 02:33:25.269 --> 02:33:25.749 Alright. 02:33:25.749 --> 02:33:26.229 Thank you. 02:33:26.307 --> 02:33:27.417 thank you for joining us. 02:33:27.447 --> 02:33:29.277 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 02:33:29.515 --> 02:33:34.555 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 02:33:34.555 --> 02:33:39.745 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 02:33:40.453 --> 02:33:45.101 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 02:33:45.101 --> 02:33:47.111 dealing with trauma around the world. 02:33:47.438 --> 02:33:51.188 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 02:33:51.188 --> 02:33:54.428 for riders on long ride home.com. 02:33:54.727 --> 02:33:58.777 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 02:33:58.777 --> 02:34:00.697 bring you and your horse joy. 02:34:01.233 --> 02:34:05.793 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 02:34:06.123 --> 02:34:07.053 See you on the next show. 02:34:07.466 --> 02:34:10.156 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.