Interior Integration for Catholics

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Join me for a deep exploration of the ways our parts process grief in healthy ways, the back-and-forth alternating between focusing on the loss and looking at restoration. Guided by the work of IFS therapist and author Derek Scott and by using a dramatized story of loss with resulting grief, we will explore the internal interactions among our parts that lead to such a multifaceted experience of grief. We also examine the two paths of grief that Catholics can choose.

Show Notes

  1. Join me for a deep exploration of the ways our parts process grief in healthy ways, the back-and-forth alternating between focusing on the loss and looking at restoration.  Guided by the work of IFS therapist and author Derek Scott and by using a dramatized example of loss with resulting grief, we will explore the internal interactions among our parts that lead to such a multifaceted experience of grief.  We also examine the two paths of grief that Catholics can choose.  
  2. Lead-In
    1. Intro -- activation warning
      1. What you are about to hear is a fictional dramatization of a car accident and Brian Moreland's internal reactions -- the reactions of his parts - to that accident and its effects on him over time.  

      1. Listen with care and prudence -- if you have unresolved trauma responses surround a car accident, please be thoughtful about whether or not to continue.

    1. News Story:  [Insert News Intro music]:  

And now out to James Fieldler, our roving KDTT reporter, coming to us live from the scene of a terrible accident earlier this evening, a really difficult story that we have been following for you.  James – what do you have for us?
[background traffic and rain and truck backing]  Terry, I am here just off the shoulder of I-94 Westbound, about  four miles west of Miles City, near mile marker 142.  Earlier this evening, an eastbound Ford pickup crossed the median into oncoming westbound traffic, striking a Honda Odyssey minivan at full speed and sending it careening through the guardrail, and rolling down this shallow embankment.  
In that minivan were a 37-year old man, a  33 year old woman, and four children ranging from about 9 to two years old.  From this angle, you can see how damaged this minivan was, nearly crushed as they are winching it up onto the wrecker.  Montana State police have just confirmed this was a fatal accident, that one of the children, about five years old has died of massive head injuries.  The man and two of the children have been airlifted to St. Alexius Trauma Center in Bismarck, no word on their condition right now. 
That is tragic, James.  What do we know about the others, James?
Terry, we have some good news, too.  The woman was able to walk away from the wreck.  EMTs used the jaws of life to break open the back of the van and rescue the other two children, who have also been transported by ambulance to Bismarck.  The  45-year old driver the pickup was shaken up and was taken to Holy Rosary Hospital in Miles City, apparently with minor injuries.  No one else was in the truck.  
What do we know about the cause?
The investigation is ongoing. As you can see, driving conditions were also difficult –  the rain coming down here.  There is some question about driver fatigue in the driver of the truck.  No word yet on any charges that might be filed, but it’s likely.  A source told me that the pickup driver’s license had been revoked for a second DUI.  There is no official word yet on whether alcohol or drugs were involved in this crash.  
Thank you, James, and we will continue to follow this story for you.  Our hearts and thoughts go out to all those involved in the crash, we wish them a rapid recovery.  Now on to Jeff Springer with sports, and the surprising finish to the Griz’s matchup with the Idaho State Bengals.  Jeff, tell us what happened at Washington-Grizzly stadium today in the rain? [Cut to Intro Music
  1. Intro
    1. We are together in this great adventure, this podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics, we are journeying together, and I am honored to be able to spend this time with you.  

    1. I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, clinical psychologist and passionate Catholic and together, we are taking on the tough topics that matter to you.  

    1. We bring the best of psychology and human formation and harmonize it with the perennial truths of the Catholic Faith.   

    1. Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach, Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website
    1. Today's episode, number 83 is entitled The Internal Dance of Healthy Grief and it's released on August 30, 2021
    1. Heard a reenacted story about Brian Moreland, and I’ll be bringing that story in throughout todays episode to add depth and examples to the concepts 

  4. Review: I encourage you to review the last episode, number 82 -- the many faces of grief inside us. 
    1. That episode goes over what happens to our parts when we experience grief?
    2. The experiences I'm about to describe are not the parts themselves. 
      1. Definition of a part --  Separate, independently operating personalities within us, each with own unique prominent needs, roles in our lives, emotions, body sensations, guiding beliefs and assumptions, typical thoughts, intentions, desires, attitudes, impulses, interpersonal style, and world view.  Each part also has an image of God and also its own understanding of self.  
      2. More than just one factor 
        1. More than just one emotion, more than just one desire or impulse 
        2. Rather -- a whole constellation of these qualities that endure over time, even if the part is not in conscious awareness in the moment.  
  5. Adapted Dual Process Model of Bereavement
    1. Margaret Stroebe and Henk Schut originally the DPM in 1999 Death Studies article called The dual process model of coping with bereavement: rationale and description
    1. Derek Scott -- IFS Therapist, author and expert on grief adapted this model in his article Grief and IFS: Mapping the Terrain -- check that out at his website
      1. two clusters of parts, two groups of parts.  
        1. one focused the loss -- looking back to the past, looking at what happened.
        2. One cluster of parts focused on  -- looking toward restoration -- looking to the future, managing the demands of life now.  

      1. Let's expand on these two clusters.  
        1. one cluster is oriented towards the loss -- those are the parts that IFS Therapist and Author Derek Scott introduced to us in the last episode.  
          1. Focus on experiencing grief
            1. Managers
              1. Disbelief
              1. Numbness
              1. Sadness
              1. Guilt
              1. Spiritual Bypassing

            1. Exiles
              1. Depression
              1. Missing/yearning
              1. Protest (anger)
              1. Guilt
              1. Powerlessness/despair/resignation.  

              1. Shame

        2. the other cluster towards restoration -- These are new parts.  
          1. dealing with the new complexities in life for the bereaved that are occasioned by the loss
          2. Readjusting to the new reality -- conforms to Elisabeth Kubler Ross' stage of acceptance and Colin Parkes' phase of reorganization and recovery
          3. Activities
            1. Attending to life changes
            1. New roles, new relationships
            1. Distraction from grief
            1. Avoidance of grief

      1. The dual process model of coping with bereavement (DPM) identifies (from an IFS perspective) contends that these two models (clusters) oscillate as the mourning proceeds.  It’s the oscillation, moving back and forth between the morning and grieving on the one hand and the restoration and moving forward on the other hand that allows for reestablishment of a new, healthy normal.  
        1. the grieving individual at times confronts, at other times avoids, the different tasks of grieving. 
        2. This model argues the need for dosage of grieving, that is, the need to take respite from dealing with either of these stressors, as an integral part of adaptive coping.

      1. This oscillation is very familiar to the IFS therapist as affect-laden parts may occupy the attention of the client, then pragmatic protectors may hold the floor to afford a break from the intensity of the other parts.
      1. The dance between the loss-oriented cluster of parts and the restoration oriented cluster of parts tends to be initially weighted towards the loss. Over time the restoration cluster of parts will become more prominent as the client lives into what may be considered to be the "new normal".

  7. Parts of Brian
    1. So to illustrate, let's pick up the story with Brian Moreland, the father of the family, now at the trauma hospital in Bismarck.  Brian has been awake for the last two hours as the effect of his sedatives has worn off… These are his manager parts.
      1. Disbelief -  
        1. Hospital Sounds, Doctor giving news Door open, door close
          1. HI Brian, they told me you're awake and asking questions.  I'm Dr. Phillip Marzone, neurologist here at St. Alexius Trauma Center,  We've transported you back to Bismarck.  You've had a cranial fracture, some coup-contrecoup symptoms, some mild brain swelling and you've had a concussion.  You been sedated and unconscious for about 24 hours, but neurologically you are stabilizing.  Your scans look good for what you've been through and they're getting better.  It's still early so there are no guarantees, but there's reason to be hopeful for a full recovery.  Minor fracture of your left tibia, a lot of bruising, but you were lucky, given the seriousness of that accident.  

        2. How is Jessica?  How are my kids?
          1. I know you have a lot of questions.  I totally get that. there's a lot to catch up on.  Your wife is fine, she's been released with only minor injuries.  Same thing with Amy, your daughter.  Ben had a broken clavicle and his shoulder is going to need reconstructive surgery.  A couple of pins and he's going to be fine, we have a great orthopedic team here that are going to see him through.  Your toddler Audra had a broken femur and a broken arm and some bruising, but she'll be fine, we'll release he in a few days, she's been asking for you.  

        3. What about Jeffy -- my four year old, what about him -- Jeffy, my four year old son? 
          1.  Brian that was a massive wreck.  I'm surprised you and your family came out of it as well as you did, that's something to be thankful for.  But Jeff -- Mr. Moreland, you som didn't make it.  He died instantly of extensive head trauma.  There was nothing anyone could do for him.  [Phone Ring] I've got to go, I'm called to the spinal cord unit stat.  This is a lot to take in, let's not go too fast with it.  Let us know if you want a grief counselor or a chaplain.  We can send them to you.  [cue door closing]
        4. From one of Brian's protectors, who is using disbelief as a way to cope with the immediate intensity of the loss -- buying him time, softening the blow so that he is less overwhelmed with the implication.  Let's listen to this Disbelieving Protector.  No, this can't be true, this can't have happened.  Jeffy is not dead.  Jeffy did not die.  There has to be a mistake.  Doctors make mistakes.  It happens all the time.  It's OK.  He's not dead.  

      1. Numbness --  This clip give you a sense of how a numbing protector comes in to deaden the intensity of his memory of the accident.  We'll be entering into Brian's experience as he flashes back to the accident and then a part of him numbs him out. [flashback sounds -- accident, screaming just a low pitched hum]
      1. Depression/sadness  A later, a manager part is dealing with the sadness, starting to experience the sadness of the loss.  Let's listen to how that part might sound.  Jeffy is dead. My boy, my son.  My beautiful boy. Jeffy. I love you. 

      1. Spiritual Bypassing;  
        1.  John Welwood 1984  "tendency to use spiritual ideas and practices to sidestep or avoid facing unresolved emotional issues, psychological wounds, and unfinished developmental tasks."  
        2. Here is a manager using spiritual bypassing to try to stabilize Brian's system.  Let's listen as it takes over and runs his system.  OK, OK.  God knows what's best here, just accept it, Jeffy is dead, but it's OK, Jeffy is in heaven among the saints.  He's little St. Jeffy.  It's OK.  Everything's OK.  And I've still got Jess, Amy Ben, and Tim with me.  We'll make it.  We are just going to move on from here on out, not looking back, just keeping our eyes on Jesus.  

    1. Let's take a look at some of Brian's Exiles in the loss-oriented cluster
      1. Missing/yearning   Oh my son.  I want to hug you one more time, just one more time.  Jeffy.  I miss you so much my son, I can hardly go on living without you.  

      1. Protest (anger)  
        1. O my God, Jeffy's dead, you took him from me, oh my God, why did you do this to me, I'll never see Jeffy again. Why did you do this to me?  How am I supposed to live on when he's dead, my boy is dead, he was only four years old, God, Mr. Omniscient Being, do have any idea of what you've done here?  How is this just?  How is this loving, Mr. Almighty God who supposedly loves us with an infinite love.  What a crock of ----.  

      1. Guilt
        1. I froze for an instant, just an instant, I couldn't believe what I was seeing, I should have hit the brakes immediately and spun hard right, I could have broken through the guardrail and went down the embankment, that would have been so much better than the head-on, I could have avoided the head-on collision.  

        1. If we would have left a few minutes later, if I hadn't been in such a hurry to get out so that we could catch the end of the game, we would not have been there when the pickup crossed over…

      1. Powerlessness/despair/resignation. 
        1. There was nothing I could do.  There was nothing anyone could have done.  The guy was drunk, it happened so fast, there was no way I could have avoided him.    

      1. Shame:  This happened because I'm not the father I should be.  I've never been the father I should be to Jeffy, or the other kids.  I'm too broken, too wounded, so inadequate.  Just like my father,  I turned out just like my old man, in spite of swearing up and down I would never be like him.  

    1. the other cluster towards restoration
      1. dealing with the new complexities in life for the bereaved that are occasioned by the loss
      1. Readjusting to the new reality -- conforms to Elisabeth Kubler Ross' stage of acceptance and Colin Parkes' phase of reorganization and recovery
      1. Activities
        1. Attending to life changes  -- Manager part that is focused on the future.  Let's hear what it has to say.  Jess and I really worked well together on replacing the Odyssey.  Buying cars has always been a painful process for me, but this time we did it together and it went really smoothly.  

        1. New roles, new relationships, continuing bonds. It's a beautiful thing. Amy and I are taking run every night together -- she's wants to be distance runner like I was.  And we can talk.  She's 13 and she wants to spend time with me.  And I'm reading to Audra every night, and soon she'll get her casts off.  So good to spend time with the kids.  And Tim and I play chess.  How he laughed when he beat me for the first time, and I wasn't throwing the game, either.  And Jess and I are pulling together in a whole new new way. 

        1. Distraction from grief   The Grizzlies are taking on the University of Northern Colorado --  The Griz is going to crush the Bears Saturday at home in Missoula.  They will blow them out, the Bears won't have a chance.  That will be a good game.  Jimmy and Dave can come over, we'll make a night of it.  Jess has offered to make us tacos.  That will be great.  

        1. Avoidance of grief -- I'm not ready to go to Jeffy's gravesite yet.  It's not time.  Not yet.  Someday I will go, but not yet.  

  1. Compassion Heals: An IFS perspective on Bereavement -- From Derek Scott.  
    1. Compassion heals. Bringing compassion to another invites their compassion for their own parts
    2.  The more significant the loss, the more profound the disruption to the system
    3. The system responses to the loss may be manager led, firefighter driven or characterized by erupting exiles
    4. The protective system may be in disarray and unable to function normally; resulting in the client feeling particularly vulnerable
    5. The protective system may become entrenched because of the perceived threat from or to the exiles
    6.  Present loss experiences may trigger parts connected to former loss events seeking healing
    7.  Unburdening parts in the loss cluster will facilitate healing and greater resiliency in terms of subsequent losses
  2. Advantages of IFS-informed understandings of grief
    1. Two episodes ago in Episode 81, we looked at the stage and phase models of grief trajectories
      1. Elisabeth Kubler Ross' five stages of grief DABDA -- denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
      1. Colin Parkes' model Shock and numbness, yearning and searching, disorganization and despair, reorganization and recovery
      2. How the empirical trajectory of grief didn't support a linear progression through the stages or phases
      3. Still valuable in describing experiences at a moment in time
      4. The myth of the unified, homogenous, monolithic personality really compromises our ability to understand grief.  
        1. Identity Issues -- not as often address
          1. Low self-esteem
          1. Who am I now, that I am no longer married?  I am a widower

    1. And in this episode, we looked at the internal dance of our parts -- how parts weave and move, some more prominent in some moments, other parts more prominent in other moments, alternating between address the loss on the one hand and, on the other hand, moving into the future, into a new normal, the process of restoration and renewal.  

    1. And why, again?  Why are we doing this?  In order to increase our capacity to love.  That's why.  To be able to understand ourselves and others in grief in more than one dimension, in more than two dimensions, but in five dimensions, as we discussed in the last episode, Episode 82 -- The Many Faces of Grief Inside Us.  

  3. Final thought from Derek Scott  --  Grief has its own timetable. There is a lot of wisdom in the system regarding when to allow access to affect-laden parts. There are, of course, frustrated, impatient parts that want it to be "over" so that the system can return to normal functioning. There may also be postponing managers (see "complicated grief”). Respecting protective parts saying, "We're not going there now" and asking them about their concerns, as well as when would be a good time to "go there "and what would need to change to allow access provides us with an understanding of how to best work with the system.
    1. Being patient
    1. Accepting all parts as they are, where they are.  That does not mean we endorse all of their impulses or desires.  Check out Episode 66  Acceptance vs. Endorsement: A Critical Difference in Catholic Marriages.  

    1. Lots of gratitude for Derek Scott's work on IFS and Grief.  Check out his work at IFSCA.CA.
    1. Dana Arcuri, Sacred Wandering: Growing Your Faith In The Dark:  “For those struggling with grief, there’s no timetable. It can last months, years, or longer. There is no rush. Give yourself permission to take however long it may be to fully heal from your loss.”  

  6. Catholic aspects of Grief
    1. Two Paths
      1. Grief is the price we pay for loving
      1. One Path -- Away from love -- too much pain, too much vulnerability, too much suffering, self-protection.  
        1. Leads to bitterness, anger, coldness, distance.  
        2. I will never love again
        3. There is no way I can see this loss as a good thing, as a gift.  Unmitigated evil, no good in it.  

      1. Second Path
        1. Deeper intimacy - reinvesting even more deeply in relationships
        1. We may have to really take on God.  Challenge Him wrestle with him.  
          1. Challenge our God image issues
          2. Break out of our comfort zones

        1. Realizing that being hurt by loss is not the same as being harmed by loss.  We will feel pain.  

    1. Positive aspects of grief -- we don't want to be pollyannish about grief, but we don't want to be overly pessimistic either.  
      1. Melissa Cultraro:  The Upside Of Loss: How My Mum’s Death Made Me A Better Person
        1. Quote:  But here’s the thing: Losing my mum as a teen helped me discover a drive and joy in myself that I never thought I had. Grieving isn’t solely about pain and suffering, I’ve learned. Sometimes there’s an upside to loss.
        1. Shauna L Hoey “Heartache purged layers of baggage I didn’t know I carried. Gifts hide under the layers of grief.”
        2.  Elisabeth Kubler-Ross:  The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen.  
        3. Bereavement is a universal and integral part of our experience of love. It follows marriage as normally as marriage follows courtship or as autumn follows summer. – C.S. Lewis
      4. Field of Post-Traumatic Growth -- looking at the upside, the benefits of adverse life events, of traumas
        1. Richard Tedeschi, Lawrence Calhoun  1996 article in the Journal of Traumatic Stress
          1. Introduced the Posttraumatic Growth Inventory
          1. Summarized research in the field from the 1980s and 1990s that documented at least some positive impact resulting from negative events -- rape, incest, bereavement,  cancer, HIV infection, heart attacks, natural disasters, combat, and the Holocaust.  

        1. Five Factors
          1. Relating to others Improved personal relationships and increased pleasure derived from being around people we love.
          1. New Possibilities Embracing new opportunities – both at the personal and the professional fronts.
          1. Personal Strength Increased emotional strength and resilience.  

          1. Spiritual Change Greater spiritual connection.
            1. A better understanding of spiritual matters
            1. Stronger religious faith.  

          1. Appreciate of Life A heightened sense of gratitude toward life altogether.

  1. Romans 8:28 -- lynchpin.  
    1. Separates those who adapt well from those who don't 
      1. Meaningless universe vs. meaning, purpose, growth, mission.
    2. But not spiritual bypassing
  2. What is our source or security?  In attachment language, what is our secure base
    1. Grief and loss may show us what we have overvalued in our lives -- career, health, even some of our relationships, at the expense of the most important things.  Love.  .
    1. All that is human is finite.  The reality of death.  

    1. God sometimes takes away our false bases of security, reveals to us their limitations
      1. CS Lewis:  Pain is God's megaphone.  Not because God is a sadist, enjoys watching people suffer.  

  4. Experiential Exercise on Grief
    1. Creating Space Exercise
      1. Invitation
        1. Use these exercises as they are helpful to you.  

        1. Starting with the basics here.  
          1. New for some
          2. Helpful review for others

        1. All of this is invitations, suggestions -- no commands, no orders to do anything
        1. Some of these invitations or suggestions are likely to be helpful.  Some might not be.  
          1. Take what is useful and helpful to you, and you can leave the rest behind.  
          2. It's up to you, you get to decide.  

        1. You're free to stop at any time.  

      1. Quiet, safe place
        1. all unnecessary electronics silenced if that's ok with you. -- phones, screens, TV, all that off for now, except what you're using to listen to this. 

        1. Doors closed

      1. Comfortable position
        1. Seated comfortably or lying down
        1. Can shift around, can move, whatever seems to suit you.  

      1. We begin to just notice what's going on inside
        1. May be new for you -- to really notice what's happening in the body
          1. Body is good -- God created us, body and soul, we are embodied beings, body and soul composites
          1. Genesis 1:31 -- just after making Adam's body out of the clay of the earth, and fashioning Eve's body from Adam's rib, breathing live into them, animating their bodies with their immortal souls, And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. 

        1. Can help to close eyes if that seems ok.  

        1. Noticing what's going on in your body
          1. What is drawing your attention?
            1. Warmer vs. colder
            1. Tingling sensation
            1. Feeling of clothing touching your skin
            1. Your breath -- inhaling and exhaling
            1. Contact with the furniture
            1. Watch on your wrist, glasses

          1. Or maybe the sensations are deeper
            1. Something with your stomach
            1. Tension your shoulders or back
            1. Might be aches or pains somewhere

        1. You might experience distractions -- that's ok, very common.
          1. See if you can just gently allow your attention to go back to your body sensations -- not wanting for foce anything here.  

        1. Whatever you're sensing in your body, wherever you're sensing it, we're just noticing it.  
          1. Accepting that the body sensation is there.  Giving it space within you to exist.  Because it's going on right now.  
          2. We are just being present with that sensation
          3. And maybe you can be curious about it.  Get interested in it. 
            1. So often we assume so much about our body sensations, we don't really notice them, see them, experience them as they are.  
            2. Really getting to know what is happening within our bodies.  

      1. Sensations may change.  
        1. Can follow the changes -- there might be a relaxation of intensity as you're noticing and interested in the body sensation -- maybe there's not a need for so much intensity if you are now paying attention.  
        2. Noticing a different part of your body.  
        3. Continuing to be with your body.  

      1. Deepening the connection with your body.  Might find out fascinating things, just by attending and noticing
        1. Thanksgiving for your body.  

        1. Gratitude for a time and space to connect more deeply with your body.  

        1. Psalm 139:14:  I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works

      1. And now, keeping the good things we've discovered, I gradually invite you back to regular awareness of your environment outside of you as well, back to regular consciousness.

    1. Grief Exercise
      1. Noticing how accepting you are right now about grief -- open, curious -- maybe even a position of thankfulness for grief?
        1. Or something in the way?  Maybe a part of you that is worried about grief, or has concerns about connecting.
        1. Contracting for not overwhelming
        1. And if this is what your experiencing
          1. Take time to work with those protectors.  

          1. Grief might be the major thing inside you right now -- the major trailhead -- for some it is, for others not.  

        1. Never want to force an agenda in this kind of work.  

      1. As I say the word "Grief" what happens in your body.  Is there a part of your body that seems connected with grief?  That has some association with grief -- notice that>  Be with that.  Witness what that part of your body might want to share with you about the grief that it holds or that it experienced, or that it knows something about.  

      1. With calmness, compassion, connection with our parts.  Your core self leading you.  How recollected are you -- anything taking you out of your window of tolerance?  

      1. Noticing
        1. Go as far as seems right and good right now.  Permission of protectors
        1. Witnessing
          1. Body sensations
          1. Emotions
          1. Images
          1. Memories
          1. Beliefs
          1. Thought
          1. Intentions 

          1. Desires
          1. Attitudes
          1. Impulses

      1. Gratitude to parts for what they've shared, what they have allowed you to experience and to learn, for allowing themselves to be better know, even if it's just a little bit.  

      1. Can work on this later -- in your check-ins with parts -- morning and evening.  Following up on trailheads
      1. Might be good to make a few notes.  

  5. Next Episode, Episode 84, we are going to get into who this podcast is really for and what this podcast is all about.  I've been reflecting on the mission of this podcast, the purpose of this podcast, and you.  Yes, you.  I've been thinking about all our listeners, and doing some deep discernment, not only about this podcast but also about the communities that have grown up around it -- the Resilient Catholics Community and the Interior Therapist Community.  I do want to let you know now that my discernment has led me to, starting in September, reduce podcast frequency to once per month, the first Monday of the month.  Tune in next week to find out all the whys and wherefores for that.  
  6. Action Items
    1. Catholic Mental Health professionals -- work with  me in the Interior Therapist Community at Souls and Hearts -- find out how you can join one of my therapist groups, which are starting in September, we are finalizing groups this week, so if you've been on the fence, get in touch,  The ITC is all about working on your human formation, informed by Internal Family Systems and solidly based in our Catholic Faith.  Find all the details at  Email me with questions at or call me on my cell at 317.567.9594 to find out how we can work together!
    1. Resilient Catholic Community at Souls and Hearts, grew up around my podcast Integration for Catholics
      1. If you are committed to this podcast, and especially if you resonated with the experiential exercise in today's episode, I want you to learn about the Resilient Catholics community.  Come with me, come with us -- be a pioneer together with us on this pilgrimage.  Come with us, join us on this adventure on this hard road to life. read about it, check it out,  

      1. lots more experiential exercises, office hours, a companion for daily connection, weekly small group work in your company, your own personalized human formation plan, tailored to your individual needs and based on your responses to our initial measures kit.  

      1. registration is open each year in June and December  Registration will open again on December 1, but you can join our waiting list now at   51 have already on the waiting list.  And I will be writing those on the waiting list from time to time, checking in with updates and special gifts, and being on the waiting list does not obligate you to join in December.  

    1. I want to hear from you Conversation hours T, R 4:30 PM to 5:30 PM  eastern time 317.567.9594 

    1. Pray for me and for the other listeners
  9. Patroness and Patron

What is Interior Integration for Catholics?

In the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, together, we seek fundamental transformation in our lives through human formation, via Internal Family Systems approaches grounded in a Catholic worldview. Join us as we sail through uncharted waters, seizing the opportunities for psychological and spiritual growth and increasing resilience in the natural and spiritual realms. With a clear takeaway message and one action in each weekly episode, you can move from dreading what is happening to you to rising above it. Join us on Mondays for new episodes. You can also check out the Resilient Catholics Community which grew up around this podcast at