Michele: Hi, everyone.
Welcome back to Software Social.
I am so excited to have two guests with me today, Michael Rouveure and Damon Chen.
These are two founders you've probably come across on Twitter or perhaps
in the founder summit community.
Both of them, have been funded by calm fund and so today we're kind of
hear about their experiences launching their companies and what that has
been like being part of calm fund.
So Damon and Michael welcome.
Michael: Thanks for having.
Michele: Yeah, I'm so excited.
So, so let's jump right into this.
So Damon Chen, you are the founder of testimonial.
Take me back to the beginning.
How did you even start with having your own company?
Where did that.
Damon: Go back to the early 2020 when the pandemic just hit.
And, you know, a lot of tech companies you know, I used to work for Cisco,
and Cisco is one of them, you know, ask all employees work from home.
And you know, it can make me lonely in the beginning.
And, during that time I was pretty fascinated about, in indie hackers
community, but, you know, w when reading those posts and reading those
comments, and I still kinda feel lonely and I'm thinking why, right.
So it's in the end.
I still can't really build the connection between the person who
replied me, the person who made the post, and it's all text based.
And I'm thinking what if that I make a video focused community, and I started
to build the MVP, and I launched the product, I launched the community, and
it was called lonely.dev back then.
And cause you know, it was just to represent myself, and I kind of
felt very lonely in the beginning and, uh, that's the first thing
that I built, it was just for fun.
During the time that I launched the community, and I was still
employed by Cisco, I got my paycheck and didn't have any of my vision,
you know, and this kind of goal.
And I'm met a lot of friends during the time that I built the lonely dev,
and after that, you know, I thought the pandemic would just disappear, at the
end of the year, but I still didn't.
And I, it kind of become a problem between my day job and my side hustle
and also my family, because back then my daughter was like one half years
old, and we were afraid to send her to daycare because we care about her safety.
And, at the end of 2020, I decided to, you know, take a unpaid leave from,
for six months and because the unpaid leave won't give me any paycheck.
And I started to have these kind of, you know, financial pressure.
And I started to think that, you know, I shipped quite a lot of features,
these kind of stuff into the lonely dev.
And the why not, I can pivot the idea into a stand alone product.
And also meantime, reuse as much code as possible because, for me
personally, there's a lot of, you know, opportunity costs and time cost
for me to build a brand new product.
The best use case for me is to just reuse the code that I previously shipped
to lonely dev and try to see if I can pivot into a standalone product.
So I was just, you know, brainstorming the things that I added to the lonely
dev and of course, I think that I added is the video recording and the
video streaming, this kind of thing.
And, you know, for a indie hacker, because I built several, you know side projects,
but I also have one common problem, which is, how can I sell the product?
How can I get the social proof and prove that potential buyers that, hey,
this is the legit and you can buy it.
And I do have happy customers and a testimonial comes into my picture.
And, there's one moment that, the Shopify, I think the Shopify website,
and I saw some video testimonials.
And that's was really a spur of a moment that I think probably I can
build it video testimonial thing.
And, that became the beginning of the testimonial and I just reused almost
80% or 90% of the code from lonely dev.
And, uh, you know, go to landing page for testimonial and then launch
it right before the Christmas.
And I got several thousand revenue from the launch.
And I think that became a hit to myself and also a strong validation
that it probably can be a thing.
So that, yeah, that's the beginning of the whole journey.
Michele: So that was interesting.
So you started out basically by building something for yourself to solve your
own loneliness during COVID, which I think is something, I think a lot
of us definitely feel, and then, you know, at a certain point, you
decided to take this leave from work.
And so, and that kind of spurred you to say, okay, well, how can
I maybe start making some extra money while I take this leave?
Which it sounded like really for your family, you knew
you needed to take that time.
And so that, got you looking for, I guess, sort of opening your eyes a
bit more on opportunities to sort of monetize what you had already built.
I mean, it's pretty amazing that you were able to reuse 80%, of the code and, and
you were also solving a very core problem that a lot of people have at the same
time of how do I, how do I let people know that, you know, I'm legit and that this,
you know, that this is a good product.
I'm curious, so when did you, so you said that you launched
testimonial december of 2020.
Is that right?
So when does your leave from work start.
Damon: I think a month before.
Michele: A month beforehand.
Okay.
So you were kind of already feeling a little bit of that pressure at that point
of not having, a salary during that time.
Damon: Yeah, but the good thing is for me, for my family is that my wife
works full-time, and I worked for Cisco for eight years in the Silicon valley.
And, you know, we do have quite enough savings.
So for me, I can foresee what would be the worst case for me,
which is I lost one year of income.
And, uh, you know, before quit my job, and I just promise to my
wife, if I can't really make it work, you know, my goal is to hit a
100,000 ARR by end of the year 2021.
And if I can really make it, I would just to go back to find
a job at any tech company.
So that's the goal that I promise to my wife, you know, but luckily
I made it before, uh, 2021 ends and I can still continue my, you know,
I guess, to continue to pursue.
Michele: That's awesome.
So you went from in December of 2020, had a really good response from that.
How did you come across calm fund and, and I'm curious, what your thoughts
were when you first came across.
Damon: I first came across, definitely from the in indie hackers community, uh,
where, you know, Tyler was interviewed.
A bit before that, uh, what I know is all about, you know, tech crunch, Y combinator
or these kind of, you know, very uh, famous, uh, them in a Silicon Valley.
And I never heard about, the calm fund, unless I listened Tyler next
podcast and then I'm like, wow, there's a VC of that to give you money.
And, uh, you can do it to what you used to do, and they don't give you any pressure.
They don't push you to move faster and, uh, And how amazing it is.
And that, that seems like, you know, the best fit for me, because I do
have family, I do have a very young kid and I don't really want, you
know, to take money and also adds up a lot of external pressure on myself.
And I just, uh, want to continue to do what I do.
And, that's why I think that calm will be a perfect.
Michele: It's interesting that you talk about, you know, the, like the
tech crunch type of funding and, you know, VC and everything else.
Damon: I applied Y Combinator for several times, and I never
got an interview request.
And I just kept applying a Y Combinator and Y com I already is the only, you,
know, the incubator or, you know, these kind of stuff that I heard about.
And after, you know, being a lurker, in the in hackers community,
and I heard quite a lot of stuff I heard about, you know, MRR.
What is MRR, what is ARR, and all these kinds of, you know, inspiring
founders and a calm fund and this kind of interesting VCs that maybe a better
fit at for in any hackers like us.
Michele: Yeah.
You know, thinking about it, like, I think something is really different about,
You know about calm is that they will fund companies that are side projects.
Indeed.
It's a selling point.
If it's a side project, that's already making money because I mean, even in
the, you know, the free flowing VC capital days of, you know, say 20 15
to early 2020, and then it kind of picked up a little bit for the last
two years and now it's back down again.
But even during the free-flowing times, like if you've got a side
project like that, they'll just, they won't even reply to your email.
They will just show you the door because it's taken as the signal
that you're somehow not serious enough about what you're doing.
And they just have no interest in it.
And calm is like very different, right?
Damon: Not to.
Not to mention the side project, but also if you're a solo founder and
most of the VC, you know even Y combinator or won't even consider,
you know, so being a solo founder.
Michele: Oh, interesting.
Michael: That's a big point to bring up.
We have a lot of founders in the community that are solo, and when you look at
funding so many places, they don't like you just because you're by yourself.
Right.
And you might have like the best business model.
You might be like super niche and have something really great, but
they just won't even look at you because they think you can't do
it because you a solo founder.
Whereas a calm funder, they don't look at it, whether you're
solo or not, they look at what.
Michele: Yeah.
So, I guess, Michael, maybe we should talk a little bit about your story as well.
So you were the founder of jungle bee.
Can you take us back to, to where the idea for jungle became.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
So I grew up in the Caribbean and, uh, In the island it's Saint
Martin, which is very, very busy, lots of, lots of tours there.
And my family, they actually have a tour and charter company there.
And so I kind of grew up in the tour business and grew up on
boats, you know, working on boats.
And at some point in all of that, I started selling tours online, you know,
to like tourists coming to Saint Martin.
So this was like a maybe 2015, 2014.
And so the websites, they weren't great, not I talk like today.
And so that small little business that I had did really, really well, it was
called Essex and deals, and I'd basically make a commission on all the bookings
I was selling for these tour companies.
So I was operating as an agent and somewhere along the line, I realized
it was really, really difficult because as bookings came through
to, through my own website, right.
I would have to then collect the money, but then also check of
each tour company, you know, if the actually had space for my.
My guest didn't know about this, but I did.
And you know, some of companies are really professional and
they're answer you straight away.
And others are like pirates.
You know, they'll be on a tour day.
They'll go home.
They'll clean their boats.
And then they suddenly they're at the pub.
I mean, you can't reach them until the next day.
And, um, it was very difficult to handle reservations for tours.
And so that's kind of when the idea of jungle became to me and the whole
point was to fix a problem that I had.
And a lot of the tour companies that I spoke to also had their problem was
dealing with availability and receiving bookings from local activitists and
agents or concierge desks at the hotels.
That's how I got started jungle bee.
So I kind of designed like the platform.
And so one thing you have to keep in mind in all this, like I mentioned
was I used to work on boats, you know, I dabbled on websites and stuff
like that, but I was not a developer.
I was on some island in the Caribbean.
I didn't know about Silicon valley startups.
I didn't know anything about this stuff.
I wasn't even involved at all.
You know, you'd find me at the beach, you know, working on
boats and things like that.
Right.
So it was, rather interesting.
And so I started to learn about, you know, everything that goes
on and trying to raise money.
And I knew that jungle bee was going to be a very difficult booking system to build.
It wasn't going to be a small little app cause you're dealing with money
and availability and time zones and schedules and just so many things.
And so I kind of did a mock up and I went to all the different tour companies
that I knew that I worked with.
And with them, I was actually able to raise $90,000.
Michele: Wow.
Michael: Um, yeah, we didn't even build software.
I mean, there was no, there was no safe, there wasn't a convertible note.
We kind of put together like this very standard business equity contract for
common stock with all the shareholders.
And I found a dev shop in South Africa that would help me.
So I did, I looked at a lot of dev shops, you know, cause I wasn't
sure, I didn't know how to do this.
I didn't even know what technology to use.
You know, all I had was my little balsamic mockup, and so with that money, I jumped
on a plane, went to South Africa and we actually built the software and it
worked really, really all it came out.
This was just to give you a date.
This was in the beginning of 2017.
And then by I'd say it was May or June 2017.
I was really excited.
We had actually launched v one of our booking system in Saint
Martin as the first place.
And we were able to get all the hotels and activity desks to use the software
and start booking all the different tour companies, you know, on the islands.
And it worked really, really well.
So that's kind of how jungle bee started, right at the beginning.
Michele: And so, I mean, you said you were on an island in the middle
of the Caribbean, not a developer, didn't know about the Silicon valley
tech world that Damon literally lives in, uh, quite a contrast here.
So, you had this $90,000 in funding from the community, basically.
So, how did you end up coming across calm?
And why did you end up taking them off?
Michael: Yeah.
So that's a really good question.
And that's where it gets really interesting.
And why calm company fund, I think is such a great model, because the
story it gets, um, it gets a bit crazy.
My story then, because this was May or June 2017.
And I'm not sure if you guys remember, but around September, October,
2017, the Caribbean, was devastated by hurricanes Irma and Maria.
And so, the startup, we had launched, well, I had launched
basically, you know, the community.
It did super well.
We were really excited.
We were really happy in September, I mean, we were doing over a million dollars
in bookings worth in the marketplace.
It was just amazing.
And then suddenly one day everything went, just crashed.
It just like it was all gone.
All my customers lost their boats.
All the other islands that we were set up to go and launch it disappeared as well.
And so that's when things got very interesting for me and my wife, Audrey.
We had to like kind of survive at that point.
And so what I ended up doing is, I ended up going to work back on boats.
So I used to work on these big luxury yachts.
And I got a job, thanks to a great friend of mine.
He got me on one of the boats, as an engineer.
And so, I basically had a side job plus the startup.
I didn't want to lose because we had put so much into it.
And so, uh, for about a year, almost a year and three months,
you know, throughout 2018.
The whole, you have 2018 up to the beginning of 2019, I worked as an engineer
and with the salary I was earning, I was able to hire some more developers
and keep building jungle bee has the Caribbean market kind of came back to
normal, you know, slowly but surely.
So jungle bee was full-time, then it became like a side hustle.
I just keeping it there going while I was working full-time on the boats.
And then back in March, 2019, I believe.
Yeah.
I decided to like, know that such, you know, I can only do both jobs so.
Because the jungle bee will be software is demanding, you know,
and the customers and everything.
And so I kind of quit my job then.
And that's when the pressure started to like, you know, come up very, very
quickly because I'm not a developer.
I can't build like in Ruby on rails and react and all that.
So I couldn't just look off to my software that I wanted to keep using.
And I had people like running, you know, using it.
Back in that time, I'd moved to South Africa because well, it's really cheap
and it's a good way, if you're going to survive as a founder, it's really
beautiful there and it's super cheap.
So that was, um, that was my, my objective in March.
And so I kind of hunkered down for two months and started getting really stressed
and started looking at like different investment models and things like that.
And.
Everything.
I had seen just like what Damon says, you know, about, VC's needing you
to have a co-founder and then you need to have, you know, X amount off MRR,
but you need to be growing or MRR by like 200% per month, you know, and like
just going off all these crazy demands was totally the opposite of what I'd
been in a jungle bee, but, you know.
I was building it to be honest and, um, in a very calm way.
And I had survived a hurricane disaster.
So it was the opposite of what people wanted to see.
And then, just like Damon as well.
I saw Tyler on a podcast and I can't remember which website.
But everything you said made so much sense, you know, about building a
company slowly, making sure that your revenue is you hope higher
than, you know, your expenses.
And then just getting to the point where you need to.
And then when you work with shareholders and VCs and things like that,
they're actually there to help you.
You know, they don't have these demands and you've got to have
to meet certain milestones.
You just got to keep the company going.
And which was something that I found rather amazing.
And yeah, I just got, super lucky to be honest.
I mean, I reached out to Tyler back then it was just a little form
sent of a pitch deck and we started chatting and one day he sent me an
email and he said, Hey man, you're in.
And I was like, oh my gosh, that's unbelievable.
And from then on, the pressure was all gone, you know.
Like then I could like actually, I was really going to go full-time into
jungle because I was already looking at, you know, finding another job.
And so from then I was full-time into jungle bee and I was able to really
concentrate on our customers, what they needed and really push the
software to where it needed to be.
Michele: I mean, that's incredible.
Like you literally had a hurricane hit your business and destroy it.
Not metaphorically, like literally.
Michael: Yeah, all gone.
I've got some, the most amazing graphs of, you know, bookings and revenue, and
you can just see like how high it goes.
And then suddenly it just does like a, like a full vertical drop.
And then it's not just that, but we also got hit by COVID.
It took us two years to recover from that.
And then in 2020, the beginning of 2020, COVID happened, and the
exact same thing happened again.
So we went through like two major disasters.
And, yeah, thanks to calm fund in the community and everything that
we, you know, that they've provided.
We were actually able to survive like a massive hurricane disaster.
We were able to survive the COVID pandemic and we're still here.
Our competitors have crushed, like they have no more money.
They had to close our companies, everything, and we've just been able
to survive throughout all of that.
So we're like, we're definitely slow.
We're more like with like a turtle, you know, slowly going
forward, but we're still there.
Michele: I think you're a cockroach, like you're your unkillable.
Michael: Yeah, exactly.
can't going to go and get rid of us.
It is.
Michele: I mean, you know, it's interesting you talking about that
because, I think sometimes a fear people have about taking funding from anyone
is what happens if things hit the fan.
Right.
And like our revenues drop to zero.
Like, I mean, I've, I feel like that's something that, that held me back for a
long time and going full time is like, oh my God, what if, you know, what,
if a major company comes into this space or like, there's this big change.
And like, all of a sudden our business just disappears overnight.
And that was just like me worrying about it.
But that, literally happened to you.
And so I'm curious, what was that experience like for you.
Cause I guess I know people kind of, sort of get worried that like their
investors would be pressuring them or, you know, kind of turn their backs on them.
And so I'm curious how that kind of dynamic played out.
Michael: Yeah.
Well, I mean, personally, you know, you kind of, well,
you get really upset, right?
Especially if it happens twice in a row.
Come on, man.
How is that even possible?
You know, how do you get to like major disaster happen in a
row, so you get sad, all that.
But from a point of view of, you know, for the hurricanes, one thing, but
like when um, COVID happened and calm fund was there, it was the opposite.
I actually felt okay.
Because when it started all going down and I'd sent a message to, you know,
CB was head of platform at calm fund, and then I'd sent a message to Tyler.
Both of them had reached up, and they were like, hey, you know, just tell
us anything we can do to help you.
You know, this COVID will eventually end, so you just got to survive
this and we're here to help you just tell us what you need.
And the same thing happened in the community.
I remember bunch of founders were worried and things like that as well.
And, you know, we had a group, everybody could speak and there was many, you
know, investors, which we call them mentors because they, you know, they
actually do work, has blended work, but they act as mentors in the community
and everyone was very, very supportive.
There was no, uh, no pressure whatsoever.
And since I've been in the community since 2019, I've seen this happen a
lot of times, you know, whether it's a disaster or actual, you know, competition
or just business, not working out for some of the founders in the community.
And when things go wrong, so far from what I've seen, you know, from
the company team, but also all the mentors, everyone's just being super
supportive and like saying, you know, sometimes it just doesn't work out.
That's totally fine.
You know, it's not, it's not the end of the world.
It's just the way it is sometimes.
Right in business.
There's no pressure whatsoever at all.
I don't feel any pressure.
How about you Damon?
Damon: Yeah, for me, it's like, uh, I took the money from Tyler
and then kind of disappear.
You know, we are all adults.
I mean, you know, we don't need anyone to supervise us 24 7, and we know, we
are the founder, and we are in the best position to know what we need to do.
But, the best part for having the calm fund on the side is,
you know, as running business and we will hit some lows for sure.
And a calm fund is the best community.
I would say.
You know, to give you a help, to give a hand whenever I need any help.
So it's always there.
So that's also the reason why I accept the temperature from Tyler, uh, is
because, you know, I'm a solo founder.
I just quit my job and I do need a community, which I
can surround myself with.
And, uh, I don't really need, you know, a community full of, you know,
those CEO's from those kinds of, you know, NASDAQ listed public companies.
But what I really need is those funders who are, no a few miles ahead of me
with a couple of million-dollar ARR that I can really feel them, and I can
follow their steps, and I can get their practical advisers and I can also get
really inspired from their journey.
And I'm hoping that one day I can be one of them.
So that's, that's the biggest reason that I, you know, joining
calm and I'm also feel very.
Michele: So you launched testimony on December of 2020, when was it that you
ended up, taking the money from calm?
Damon: It was May, 2021 and I'll quit my job at the end of the March 2021.
I quit my job.
I actually, you know, not only building public on Twitter, but
I also quit in public on Twitter.
Yeah.
Uh, I made a, I posted a tweet say, Hey, if I can reach a 1000 MRR, I'm
going to quit, quit my job in public.
And at the end of the March, I reached my 1000 MRR ago, which means that I
have to quit my job because I promised.
Michele: Because you promise the internet.
Damon: Yes.
And, uh, a month up later, I reached, uh, 2000 MRR.
And by the time, Gil reached out to me uh, on Twitter and
saying, Hey, can we have a talk?
And then I'll have to talk with Tyler.
And then at the end of the April or early may, and I got the temperature from Tyler.
So that happens with.
Michele: Did your boss at Cisco see that tweet?
Damon: I'm pretty sure that he did it.
Michele: I'm curious.
So, you know, you mentioned, you know, talking about with your wife and kind of
the decision to take this leave and she had a full-time job and everything else,
what was that conversation like with your wife when you said, like, when you got to
that decision of, if you get to a thousand dollars a month, you can quit your job.
Damon: I would say not only for me is a risk, but also for my wife.
it's also a big risk for her because she will be the only one that contributes
in the financial wise to our family.
I would say she definitely got the equivalent you call pressure as I do.
As I said, you know, I can foresee what is the worst case for our family,
which is, you know, we lost 200,000 salary you know, one year salary.
And , for my wife, it's definitely better that if she can see some moment
and from a business, and I think 1000 MRR, 2000 MRR is definitely a
early sign that she will get a little bit of confidence, for what I do.
And of course, nothing is, no risk.
Right?
So if I do anything, you know, there's always some, some risk there,
but it's always a balance between the freedom and the financial wise.
So for me, if I quit my job, I got all the freedom except for the financial freedom.
So that's the goal that I'm going after.
You know, if I still keep my job and, uh, you know, the
financial stability for sure.
But, uh, you know, in the meantime I lose the freedom to take care
of my young kids and also this kind of, you know, daily update.
I have to update my boss, you know, what I did in the past day, you know, whatsoever.
So that's kind of like a mental torture for me.
So, you know, working for tech companies like Cisco, there, there
will be a lot of trivial stuff.
And, uh, you know, it's just, I know it's just a matter of time to get
them finished, but it's a boring job.
And not to mention, I work there for eight years and things started
to get really boring to me.
And, uh, I would say it's a mental torture for to updates my
progress every day, every week.
And, I would say it's always a balance.
If I choose to stay full time, you know , I will have the financial
stability, if I choose to quit my job, and I will have the freedom, but,
uh, you know, it will take some time to regain our financial stability.
Michele: So I just realized something.
So while you were building testimonial, you were on leave from Cisco.
So were you also taking care of your daughter at that
Damon: Yes.
Yes.
I will say when I did decide to take the leave, taking care of my
daughter was the highest priority.
And I never imagined that our launch testimonial one, I, and
not to mention that I would make money out of a testimonial.
And it's just a surprise for me.
I would say it's a surprise to me because I never validated
the testimonial one idea.
Cause I think that I can reuse a lot of code.
I can quickly build the MVP within a week.
I launch it, I directly launch it, after the MVP is done, the next
day I launched it on product hunt.
And then, you know, because back then there was some lifetime deal
and I sold 10 or 20 copies of the lifetime deal, which brings me 5,000
revenue within the first two weeks.
And, uh, that was kinda.
To me, to be honest.
Michele: So I'm curious, like I was incredible journey.
Like what did your day actually look like?
Cause you were effectively, I mean sort of effectively a stay-at-home
parent with a side project.
So like, what did your daily schedule look like?
And like when did you find time to work on testimony?
Damon: I would say, most of the time during the day was just playing around
with my daughter, reading books and playing Lego with this kind of stuff.
And I only worked for testimonial during her nap time.
And, during the evening time after she went to bed.
Michele: That sounds a lot.
Like my weekends when the early days of geocodio.
Damon: Even worse, I would say, you know, right before I launched testimonial on
product hunt, my wife got sick and we have no clue if she got COVID or not.
And she, I told her that, you know, you just, stay in the bedroom and, uh,
you know, you know, don't come out.
And, uh, you know, she scheduled some COVID test three days later, because
back then the schedule was pretty busy.
And, you know, she stays 24 7 in the bedroom and I'm the only one,
you know, taking care of the kid, cooking food, and this kind of stuff.
So during the testimonial launch, I'm super busy.
Uh, I only got time to work on testimonial, you
know, when, when my kid is.
Michele: I mean, so you were under a lot of pressure when
you were launching testimonial.
Damon: Uh, less I, make some money, from the launch.
Michele: Yeah.
Yeah, there was there, there was high.
Damon: I would say the, uh, stripe notification is the thing about,
you know, energized me during the first few launch days.
Michele: Yeah, yeah.
I can see that.
Michael, I'm curious.
I mean, so your, your journey was also, I mean, growing fast and then
hit by a hurricane, went back to working on boats for a year and a half.
How did as a side project um, move to South Africa, like, what
were the conversations with your wife like during all of that?
Michael: At that point, she had kind of given up on, like what's
going to happen next, at that point.
Because, there's more of the story.
Like even at one point off to Africa, just before COVID, we had decided,
I had decided, and obviously I spoke to her about, and she's always, she
always says yes to everything at the end of the day, to be honest.
So it's pretty cool.
I said like, hey, we need to go to Costa Rica.
We need to go to the different Caribbean islands.
I'm going to sell jungle bee will be a software directly to the tour
operators and go and speak to them, learn from them and make it happen.
Yeah, I just told her and she was like, yeah.
Okay.
For sure.
She loves it.
The more we travel, the more we do crazy things the better.
Obviously at one point they did get kind of tiring, you know,
one point it was no one morning.
I remember she woke up and was like, hey, can you go and get those amazing
croissants for me at the bakery.
And I was like, well, darling, um, the problem is that was two islands ago.
We're not even in that country anymore.
Cause we, we had been moving so much.
Yeah, it was, um, it was definitely interesting.
Cause you just didn't know really where, where you were going to be.
And you know, we didn't have like a permanent address.
We were moving along.
But throughout that whole point.
I mean, throughout the whole, you know, from the beginning
to the end, it was fine.
We've always been very aligned on everything.
It's very easy.
Michele: Wow.
I mean, I get the sense of, for both of you, I mean, given sort of how kind of
tumultuous things were in the beginning of your companies that like, kind of finding
out that something like calm existed, that you didn't have to be on that, you know,
2000 or 200% monthly growth rate track, kind of like gave you a sense of relief.
Michael: Definitely.
Damon: Oh, sure.
I mean, I always believed that the biggest pressure should not be external.
I mean, we, as the founder, we should have our own motivation to drive
the revenue, to grow either like a rocket ship or at least grow steadily.
So it's not really the money can solve the growth problem, is always the founder who
need to, you know, keep our own business.
Michael: Yeah.
Also, I'd like to add, like, for example, before I joined, um, calm
fund, I was not really part of like the whole, you know, tech community, actual
important, tech community me at all.
And, um, so when you like, you know, building software, right.
And you'd doing a startup because you know, you're doing a startup, obviously.
It gets really difficult to make decisions you've got, you don't know what you're
doing, whether it's right, whether it's wrong and not only that, but you
don't know who to bounce concepts or ideas or for it to even know if you're.
If what you're doing is actually realistic or not at all.
And, that was a big relief.
So when I joined calm fund, I was able to just to speak to anybody or
bounce ideas off Tyler or CB, or, you know, one of the mentors that are
more specialized in what I'm kind of doing, you know, one of the problems.
And that kind of helped a lot because then you know that when you speak to
somebody like that, that actually, you know, they've got experience and then
you look at your own company and you can say, okay, well, this is might not
be perfect, but I'm definitely going in the right direction versus before.
You could be going completely the wrong way and you won't even know
about it until it's too late.
That was, um, that was a big relief.
Michele: Yeah.
I mean, I can really see that because you, you are not coming from a tech
or a product background at all right.
Like you were working on boats and tourism, which is incredibly helpful
for your business in terms of subject matter expertise, but in terms of
how digital, you know, products and software work not as much.
And I think some of these things as a founder, like it's difficult
sometimes because yes, you know, there's an amount of build in public.
And I guess I'm curious your take on this Damon, but like
sometimes you're also like, is this something I can admit to in public?
What will people think of me if I ask this question?
Or like, can I, can I share this or can I ask this in public?
And so sometimes it's nice to have a small community of people who are both
in your situation and then also people who are kind of at further stages down
the line to bounce something off of.
But Damon, I'm kind of curious how you think about that.
Cause you're a big I mean you quit in public, right?
So you're a big build in public person and kind of have been doing that,
you know, from the very beginning.
Damon: I will say building public journey is also a surprise
to me because as I mentioned.
The first, thing that I launched is a community, which means that
I have to be the biggest champion.
I have to keep posting the videos to lonely dev.
I have to connect people outside but lonely dev and to drag
it back uh, to our community.
So that became the beginning, of I, you know restarted my twitter
because I sat off twitter when I first moved to this states.
And I'm in states days to pursue my graduate degree.
And then I signed up, but I never used.
And, uh, and after I start building my side hustle, I have to be, be like
an extrovert or something like that.
And I have to keep, you know, posting the product updates.
And I think it's like that, and that become the beginning
of my building public journey.
And after I built several products and I just ah, you know, to, to tweet
a thread and just summarize what I've done in 2020, and I, I made a thread
like, um, you know, these are the apps that I shipped in 2020, and you
know, most, all of them generates $0.
I haven't run there only one generous several thousand within a few days.
So my whole point is that, you know, keep building and to be
patient and that's the whole point.
And that became, you know, at the beginning of everything.
And uh, yeah, I'm pretty much share everything.
A except for, uh, calm and that we do have a slack private structure, which
is called 5k Twitter, Twitter, 5k, community, and, uh, you know, the Kenneth
castle and the founder of, uh, sleep and, uh, the founder fan pointer, GG.
And I said, noah brag.
I was invited by noah brag back then.
You know, we, we are all, you know, on Twitter with several thousand followers on
Twitter, but not reach 5,000 and our goal.
You know, for the private communities, you know, we have to reach 5,000 followers on
Twitter and that's why the name come from.
And, uh, for some, you know, trivial stuff.
And we were sure within the private committee.
Michele: Yeah.
Communities is really, really important.
So I just have one more question, you know, if you're kind of thinking back
to yourself or, you know, from your own experience, I'm curious, like, if
you knew of somebody else with a job who had a side project that they wish
they could go full time on, and they're considering taking funding from calm,
what do you think they should know?
Damon: I think you gotta be prepared and you gotta know that
what is the road blocker for you about why not quitting our job?
Is it that, you know, you didn't see the initial sign of the product market
fit or you just need you know tens of thousand as the, you know extra financial
cushion for you to quit your job.
And, for me, I mean, personally, I think I'm, well-prepared before quitting my job.
And, uh, you know, I got the financial support and also the,
you know, the mental support from.
my wife and we do have savings.
And having a community, we should follow, you know, indie, hacker uh,
founders is the thing that I really want.
That's why I took the funding from calm.
And, uh, you know, if you are hesitating had any you know, whether or not
you should quit a job if, you know, money is the thing that, troubling
you and you just take the money.
And you know, it become nearly no risk for you because you got
the money and moreover you have a much bigger opportunity to make a
much bigger impact to your personal life or your, your family life.
Yeah, for me, I think the only suggestion is that, you know, you got
to know what is the thing that blocks you from really quitting our job?
You know, I mean, if it is money, take the money.
If it is, you just don't have the competence in product just to compute it.
You know, as a side hustle and once you see the initial product market is
already assigned and you want to have a much quicker, growth rate, then take
the money to fuel your business and, um.
Michele: Yeah.
It's, you know, And I think something that really led us to invest in it
is that I think, you know, thinking back to when it was a side project for
us you know, I remember, I remember learning a bit about venture capital and
learning very quickly that a business like ours was basically uninvestible.
Cause it was not rocket ship growth, you know, it's like, it's weird nobody's,
right, in the tech world, you know.
And, you know, it was already profitable, which is a bad
thing, um, in a lot of cases.
Right?
Who knows how things are, you know, today with, with everything crashing.
And so I always just considered our business just sort of like
uninvestible, but from what I had read from some of the bigger VCs
and never even considered it, but.
You know, we got to this point where there really was a lot of pressure
for us on running the business and having two full-time jobs and only
having that nights and weekends and nap time to work on it as you to Damon.
And when I found out about it, I was like, you know what?
This would have been so helpful for us when we were at that point of
like, this is just not quite enough there to feel really, really confident
about one of us going full-time or both of us going full time.
You could probably get there, but like this, this is something that would
have been really attractive and also.
Helpful to us, not just because the funding, but also, you know, sort of how
the funding works and, you know, I see just people go on calms website and just,
you know, read about the agreement, which is called a seal th that Tyler created
for it, but it was, I think kind of important for us to sort of pay it forward
in a way to try to help people who were,
you know, or we are in a similar situation as us and just relieve some of that kind
of pressure and stress in their life from trying to make a business work you
know, from the ground up without any, you know, major support behind you.
Michael: Yeah.
I'd like to add, um, just another thing as well, you know, for, I mean,
I think this is really important for any founder that is considering taking
investment from calm fund, what they need to know is at the calm company
fund, there is a lot of investment that goes into community and putting
together documentation and getting a lot of help in place to help the founders.
And what's interesting, as well, I at calm fund, I don't know if it's like this at
other funds, but at calm fund, we kind of operate in a way like a bootstrap sort
of startup and what that means right.
Is, and not everybody sees us, but I do because I help out the
actual calm fund team all the time is our team is completely
focused on helping the founders.
And whether that means like spinning up new projects, you know?
So we've had CB who was putting together, you know, artificial boards, you know,
so I don't know, they have a special term for that, but basically you bring
in, you know, board members, you do found the companies that don't have
board rights, but they're there to help.
We've got all kinds of experiments going on all the time, you know, in some
work and some don't work, but what's interesting is we constantly invest and
innovate into helping founders, whether it be resource docs, knowledge, whether
it's like many groups, like masterminds.
We even, I have this internal platform called HQ, which is absolutely amazing.
It's a full directory of the founders, the members anything that a, a founder,
any problem that a founder runs into, or even our mentors, as well, when
they run into problems, you know, those issues are like documented.
And then we have, you know, someone that does an amazing job at writing
articles about it, so that when that problem happens to you, all the
knowledge, like the collective knowledge of the entire community is not lost.
It's right there in our internal platform for any founder or mentor to go and get.
And I think that's, there's a lot of value in that.
Michele: Yeah.
Michael: you know, investing there's, there's more.
Michele: Yeah.
I mean, I've, participated in that myself, which is really interesting
as an investor because in a lot of funds, I get the sense that there's
kind of an you know, a bit of distance between the LPs and the, those are the
investors, you know, the partners and the associates running the fund, and then
the companies themselves, like there's not too much interaction between them.
And with calm, there's a lot of interaction like mentored a founder's
summit group myself and was also on one of the calm advisory boards.
And of course we're all in slack and accessible as well.
There was a base camp for a while too, and it's always, I remember seeing
sort of a luminary of our world.
Just jumping in and commenting I'm on a thread.
And it was like, whoa, I have a emailed from this person, I've only
seen up on stage at micro con f, as a keynote, um, in my email, this is okay.
Like, um, you know, because of calm fund.
Because people have access to people who really know they're talking about.
Michael: Yeah, exactly.
And it's great.
You see the value everyday, you know, with the founders in the community.
that they get.
Michele: Well, I think that's about going to wrap us up for today.
Thank you so much for coming by today and thank you to calm fund
for sponsoring this episode today.
Michael, Damon, if people want to hear more about you and your
businesses, where should they.
Michael: Find me on Twitter, I guess.
That's that works.
Or sign up to my software, if they have a tour company.
Damon: Yes, I'm here.
Yeah, my, uh, my Twitter handle is, uh, Damon Chen, D a N E N G C H E N.
Cause I couldn't get the real Damon Chen, but a D M E N G a is the Chinese
pronunciation of the English Damon.
So I just choose the Chinese pronounciation as my twitter handle.
And if you are running a business and you want to get the, uh, the
sort of proof for a business and the checkout test one to go to you.
Michele: Awesome.
And if folks want more about calm fund.
You can go to calm fund.com, there, you can see more about the approach of
the fund, the philosophy that Damon and Michael mentioned that Tyler Tringas,
the founder of calm fund, shared on indie hackers, more about investing,
as well as, about the community.
Thank you guys for.
Michael: Thanks for having this was awesome.